Would you go to turkey for Anzac day

[CJ]

I was planning on going to Turkey for Anzac day and do a 2 week tour at the same time.

However, while I was away on my last trip, the bird flu seems to have started killing people there (I think the count is up to 6 dead now??).

Is anyone following the bird flu closely and if so, what do you recommend. From what I can tell it seems isolated to poorer areas but I would be going to some smaller towns on the tour.

Any help?

[Lizard]

Population of Turkey = 69.7million. Statistically, a horrific 0.000009% chance of contracting bird flu on a short term visit...

While there is no human-to-human spread, I don't think you need worry...

[limegreen]

Prior to Turkey, assuming you were under 35 I would have thought that you would be fine. Previously, rather like the more usual "flu" it's only fatal to older people. I have to say I'm mildly disconcerted that children have apparently been killed...

[rmbbrave]

You have more chance of dying driving to the airport in NZ than of bird flu in Turkey.

Check out this site for chances of dying in the USA by listed causes.

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

An American ha about as much chance of being killed by a dog as a Turk has of dying from bird flu.

[rmbbrave]

"The things we see in the news
are not always the things that are most dangerous to us."

ODDS AGAINST SARS

The chances of dying from SARS are almost as low
as being struck by lightning.

The World Health Organization may be advising travellers to avoid Toronto in the wake of the SARS outbreak, but the odds seem to suggest that visitors have a lot more to worry about than just the mysterious disease.

As of yesterday, 16 people in the greater Toronto area -- one for every 292,681 residents -- had died from the virus. Mathematically speaking, a person is much more likely to die in a flood (one in 237,132), be murdered (one in 50,353), or accidentally strangle themselves in bed (one in 10,779). "The safest way to travel is in a plane," said Emile Therien, the president of the Canada Safety Council. "But probably your chances of dying in a plane crash coming to Toronto are much greater than your chances of acquiring SARS." For the record, the odds of dying in a plane crash this year are approximately one in 380,000.

Yesterday's warning from the WHO sparked outrage from Canadian health officials and politicians from all levels of government, who called the advisory an unnecessary overreaction. They said Toronto, which has unofficially been shunned for weeks, does not need an official black mark as it struggles to keep the city's economy afloat. "I've never been angrier in my life," said Mel Lastman, Toronto's Mayor. "I'm shocked. The medical evidence before us does not support this advisory." Indeed, the odds appear to be in Mr. Lastman's favour.

The Greater Toronto Area, which includes Toronto, Peel, Durham, York and Halton, has a total population of 4,682,897. Approximately 260 people in the region -- one for every 18,011 residents -- are being treated for probable or suspected SARS symptoms. According to the odds, there are far worse fates than coming down with SARS symptoms.

- Canadians have an estimated one-in-100 chance of acquiring skin cancer, with a one-in-400 chance of dying from the disease.

- One in every 1,272 Canadians was sexually assaulted in 2001.

- The likelihood of dying from a fall from a ladder is one in 9,485, which is only slightly lower than the chances of falling out of a building.

Actually dying of SARS in Toronto is even more of a rarity. While the 16 deaths -- one for every 292,681 residents -- have brought obvious pain to the victims' friends and relatives, the chances of dying from the disease are almost as low as being struck by lightning (approximately one in 500,000).

- According to last year's traffic records, a person is 205 times more likely to die in a car crash -- one in 22,843 -- than succumb to SARS.

- Approximately 90 people were murdered in the GTA last year, which means visitors have a much higher chance of suffering stab wounds than SARS fevers.

- One in every 72,265 people in Ontario last year died of the flu -- far more than the amount who have fallen victim to SARS.

- The odds of dying from a dog bite -- one in 142,279 -- are higher than dying from SARS.

"You're much more at risk of getting into a car accident or dying of the flu," said Dr. Martin Antony, an
professor of psychiatry at McMaster University. "We want to keep things in perspective. The things we see in the news are not always the things that are most dangerous to us."

[minimoke]

[quote]Originally posted by CJ
Without a moments hesitation DO IT!!. Turkey is a truly fantastic country and two weeks won't be long enough.

If you are going to visit a number of bird farms, roll in the excrement, cover yourself in blood and inhale the surrounding air you might be getting simila odds of being hit by lightning or an asteroid hitting earth!

Bird flu kills birds not humans!! (the 78 deaths in a mega million population since 1997 doesn't create the smallest of statisctical blips)

[Sideshow Bob]

Agree with Minimoke, Turkey is a great place and agree that two weeks won't be long enough.

I had been thinking about doing a trip to Europe in our winter, and bird flu did enter my thoughts. The deaths in Turkey has not been from the deadly strain that they are worried about (so much).

Have been to Gallipoli, and a amazing and very sad place. Imagine ANZAC day would be very special - except just maybe too many Australians, and if they play too much John Farnham (again).

If you are worried, then get a really good travel insurance policy, and discuss with them prior about bird flu.

[Base Trader]

Forget bird flu - youn will have more chance of dying on one of the Turkish buses and with only two weeks there that is probably where you wwill spend most of your time.

The coaches spend more time on the left hand side of the road than we do.

[CJ]

My issue is not with the birdflu in its current state but with all the doomsdayers saying it is not a matter of if, but when it mutates to Human to Human and then their is the risk of a human pandemic etc etc etc.

NO point having travel insurance if you are dead!
NO point having a return airline ticket if every country closes their border to Turkey.

I have reviewed my travel insurance and there is a chance they could refuse a payout if I choose to cancel my trip because bird flu is not an "unforseen event" and querying them on it means that the event is forseen, however remote.

The tour I want still has lots of places so I can delay my decision for a few weeks.

Thanks for you input.

[minimoke]

quote:Originally posted by CJ

My issue is not with the birdflu in its current state but with all the doomsdayers saying it is not a matter of if, but when it mutates to Human to Human and then their is the risk of a human pandemic etc etc etc.

NO point having travel insurance if you are dead!



CJ - its not doomsayers spreading the message - it is the profiteers. Who do you think is benefiting from all this. Firstly there is Roche with their Tamiflu. Closer to home there is the medical research fraternity who need more funds and need an "issue" to get that funding. Then there is some Professor who is on the bandwagon with the re-release of his book on the 1918 flu, and the insurers who will no doubt take your cash when there is no risk whatsoever. Don’t forget the OSH people who in an effort to preserve their jobs need an issue to rally around. It is newspapers who need pages to fill and the WHO who hasn’t had a decent issue to raise their profile in a few years.

Go to turkey, enjoy your self and remember that living has some inherrrent risks so you may as well enjoy yourself while you can!

[weasel]

Hi CJ. I was in Istanbul a couple of weeks ago. If given the chance I'd be back next week. However, saying that, i'll be in Budapest next week, so it would have to be the week after ;) But seriously, as the other posters have pointed out, you've got a far greater chance of being hit by a bus, which , incidentally happened to a guy on the road I live on (a main road in Manchester) a couple of weeks ago. I didn't see the guy but the bus looked like it had been hit by a bus. Not pleasant. Take care when crossing the road all.
Wease

[pimpit]

Looking at all the drama going on, I would go fiji. Freedom air flights are only 169 one way to get there.

[saintjohn]

quote:Originally posted by pimpit

Looking at all the drama going on, I would go fiji. Freedom air flights are only 169 one way to get there.

Now thats good logic pimpit, why pay for a return flight you may not need.....SJ

[pimpit]

I just come back from a trip to Kabul Afghanistan and Pakistani Mountains, more conflict more exciting it is…

[Sideshow Bob]

quote: originally posted by pimpit:

I just come back from a trip to Kabul Afghanistan and Pakistani Mountains, more conflict more exciting it is…

Cool![8D]

[belgarion]

I worked in IT for insurance companies for many years and one thing you could guarantee ... the public have appalling statistical ability when it comes to risk assessment and applying limited budgets to mitigating those risks ... Other posters above have pointed this out ... I do too - but for slightly different reasons ... Read on ..

....
Niagara Falls Reporter: 'The fourth quarter'

This is an open letter to all of you who collectively wet your pants when they flew those airplanes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon back in September of 2001. You know who you are. The ones who turned unprecedented power over to that stuttering moron named George W. Bush.

Yeah, we're talking to you, Niagara Gazette, and you, Buffalo News. And you, Sen. Clinton, and even you, Sen. Schumer. Cheerleaders for this carnage, so you were.

Three thousand people got killed that day. It was a lousy day. But not lousy enough for the rest of us to lie down willingly as the guarantees of the Constitution of the United States were usurped by a gang of thugs no better than those who brought us that sorrow in the first place.

Let's put things in perspective. Since the Sept. 11 attacks, around 80,000 Americans have been killed in ordinary homicides. Home invasions, friends getting into an argument at a party, people not wanting to wait for a divorce, and the like. A similar number have been killed on our nation's highways.

Has our chickenhawk president moved boldly to curtail our civil liberties based on these body counts? Of course not.

But he did tell us that Saddam Hussein was in possession of weapons of mass destruction. Which was a lie. And he did tell us that Saddam was in cahoots with the guys who brought down the World Trade Center, also a lie. And finally, he told us that our brave American men and women would be welcomed as liberators in Iraq -- greeted with flowers, he said, which was the biggest lie of all.

A lot of Americans got killed in Iraq during the last quarter of 2005. According to the Department of Defense, the number was 247. More than 6,000 were maimed. And those are the worst numbers posted in any three-month period since the war began. Progress indeed.

This president -- of "Mission Accomplished" fame -- likes to tell you why he should be able to tap your phone without a warrant, why he needs to know what books you check out of the public library, and why oil companies should be cut a break.

And all of you who wet your pants after Sept. 11 let him get away with it. We're down about 2,200 brave patriots now, for no reason at all.

Source: Niagara Falls Reporter
Niagara Falls Reporter: 'The fourth quarter' (http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/editorial229.html)

The number of conclusions that can be drawn from the hilighted figures are numerous ... I draw just one ... Americans are probably the stupidest race on earth!

[rmbbrave]

I'm not a big fan of ANZAC day.

I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity.

I would be prepared to risk my life for my family but I certainly wouldn't sacrifice it. The idea of even risking it for my country is laughable.

But what really annoys me about ANZAC day is when politicans go on about how the old soldiers died so that future generations could live in a free and democratic society.

Wars are never fought for the benefit of future generations but because of mistakes made by current politicians.

[trackers]

quote:Originally posted by rmbbrave

I'm not a big fan of ANZAC day.



I'm a big fan of Turkey.

[CJ]

Well I didn't go and wish I did now.

rmbbrave - I am not a fan of war and I think most modern wars are necessary. However some are when one country tries to infringe on the rights of another country (ie desert storm was need - 1991 - but the recent one wasn't). I dont know about WWI (history is not a big favourite of mine) but WWII definately required outside intervention and was not caused by the politions.

[Year of the Tiger]

quote:Originally posted by CJ

Well I didn't go and wish I did now.



How many times in our lives do we say that?

A few years ago I read a book all about "timing is everything" and this is in relation to things we do or don't do.

To compact the book into one brief but poignant message, I learnt that the two of the most important words that I can take forward into my life and be constantly aware of are "if only". I decided when I read that book, I would never reach a ripe old age and feel the need to say "if only".

I've set many things I want to achieve and some of these goals, I have already reached. And the quest goes on.

Now to my point, CJ, why didn't you go? If you really wanted to do it, then do it. At least then for the rest of your life you won't be burdened with the response "if only I had gone"

[Base Trader]

CJ - still plenty of time to go to Turkey and with better weather too. The best part about Turkey is the beach and Coastal lifestyles. I sailed around the coast of Turkey for a weak and it is wonderful coastline. I visited Kanackele (mis-spelt most likely) and it was good despite the lack of beer cans and ANZAC's.

For something slightly less emotional and more hedonistic there is always Pampalona. Birdflu will be the least of your concerns!

http://sportzfun.com/v-web/gallery/albums/bull-fighting/bull_fight1.jpg

[rmbbrave]

Actually I'm not a big fan of most on NZ's holidays.

New Years Day No problems
Day after New Years Day No problems
Waitangi Day Celebrates European treachery and the oppresion of Moari
Good Friday Mindless Superstition
Easter Monday Mindless Superstition
ANZAC Day I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity.
Queen's Birthday I depise monarchies
Labour Day No problems
Christmas Day Mindless Superstition
Boxing Day Mindless Superstition


Only 3 out of 10 give me no problems

[CJ]

You should come and live in the UK - they just call them bank holidays. They dont even a queens birthday.

I wonder with NZ multi cultural mix now and diverse religious backgrounds, how long can 4 out of 10 public holidays continue to be Christian celebrations. Especially with most business open 365 days a year, why not say no public holidays but a manditory 5 weeks (current 3 plus 2) annual leave. then people can celebrate their own religious holidays and not be forced to celebrate others.

I will probably do Anzac day/turkey next year. I decided not to do it and have "allocated" those days off to other trips now so I cant get any more annual leave. Provided I do something equally as good (I have a list of things I want to do while in the UK), I dont consider it an opportunity missed, just a different road traveled.

[Cooper]

quote:Originally posted by rmbbrave
ANZAC Day I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity.


I don't think you have to be a supporter of war in order to acknowledge the hardships veterans have been through. In fact, if you believe sacrificing one's life for one's country is bordering on the insane, then you already acknowledge those hardships... you wouldn't do it, but they did.

Things are different now than they were then. Anti-war thinking and movements are more prevalent now, which makes it so much easier and more acceptable to proclaim some kind of advanced morality or intellectual superiority which rules out you ever going to war for your country. Tales abound of the society wide push of patriotism(which politicians and the NZ public as a whole both instigated and implemented) to get "our boys over there to protect the mother country", like women handing out white feathers to those not in uniform, treating conscientious objectors as criminals etc etc. There was also a less individualistic approach to thinking than there is now... people tied their own thinking more to their country than we do now.

World War 2 was also arguably the most moral war (perhaps moreso in hindsight) than any other war I can think of. Just because you don't regard the defense of others as an obligation, "brave", that doesn't mean that those young men didn't as well.

But the bottom line is, even if you wouldn't sacrifice your life for your country, there are people who have done, for whatever reason, and for what they've survived they are due respect. If you are against the idea of war then highlighting the pain of those who are sent to war is even more important, not less.

[thereslifeafter87]

quote:Originally posted by rmbbrave

I'm not a big fan of ANZAC day.

I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity.

I would be prepared to risk my life for my family but I certainly wouldn't sacrifice it. The idea of even risking it for my country is laughable.

But what really annoys me about ANZAC day is when politicans go on about how the old soldiers died so that future generations could live in a free and democratic society.

Wars are never fought for the benefit of future generations but because of mistakes made by current politicians.



I agree entirely.

[rmbbrave]

"The idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country" is very much a phenomena of the last few hundred years.

Before that people didn't live in contries they lived in villages. Fighting (and dying) for ones village made far more sense than fighting for your country as your village was bound to have a large number of family members in it.

In the 21st century there are large numbers of people who have lived in several countries and/or have the ability live in many more.

I have the right to live in Japan, OZ and NZ. As an English teacher in Japan I have come to realise that my culture is one that I share with the entire English speaking world.

I reckon I would be quite happy living in the U.K., South Africa, OZ or NZ (they have cricket) and at a pinch Canada, Ireland, or the U.S.

I would also consider living in Thailand, Bali, Germany or Sweden before I would risk my life defending NZ.

If, 150 years ago, you had told someone living in a village in Bavaria that his grandson would die defending a kaiser from Berlin in 1915, he would have called for the men in white coats.

In the 21st century where people can pick and chose the country they live in, the idea of sacrifcing one's life for one of them, seems as crazy now as it did for humanities entire history save for the past few hundred years.

The sooner the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country is consigned to history's dustbin the better. But celebrating ANZAC day perpetuates this form of nationalism and helps brainwash the next generation.

Just look at the rubbish these young people now believe.

From - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10378863

(Utter garbage in bold)

Rheannon Ashton, 10, said she was at the dawn service "remembering the soldiers who fought for us."

Alice Gallagher, 14, learnt about the Anzac spirit at school and said her first dawn service today meant a lot.

She said many people would not understand what it was like for soldiers to fight and die in a war.

"I don't think it is possible (to know) until it actually happens to you and you live it out. But it is nice to be able to get a hint of it."

For childhood friends Emma Stuart and Arianne Russ, both 15, being at the service was important to remember what New Zealand soldiers gave in all wars.

Emma Stuart, wore the medals of her grandfather, Darge Stuart, who she never met but who went to war with the 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force.

"It is good to remember him and what he did to get these medals. He was fighting for our generations."

Arianne Russ, who attended her first dawn service today said the dawn service gave the chance to remember all the people who fought for their country.

"We wouldn't be here today if they hadn't risked their lives," she said.

[lakedaemonian]

quote:Originally posted by rmbbrave

I'm not a big fan of ANZAC day.

I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity.

I would be prepared to risk my life for my family but I certainly wouldn't sacrifice it. The idea of even risking it for my country is laughable.

But what really annoys me about ANZAC day is when politicans go on about how the old soldiers died so that future generations could live in a free and democratic society.

Wars are never fought for the benefit of future generations but because of mistakes made by current politicians.



I'm a HUGE fan of ANZAC Day.

But I find political meddling on such occasions, whether it be vote pandering or justification for poor decisions of their predecessors quite uncomfortable......but they represent us, until we find someone hopefully better....if the cost of honouring the fallen is stuck choking down a small bit of politically motivated doublespeak, it's a small price to pay for those that served.

In my opinion, in the last 100+ years New Zealand has fought some "good" war and some "bad" wars. "Good" meaning justifiable and necessary, "bad" meaning NOT justifiable or necessary.

I would place the global Conflict of WWII in the "good" category seeing as we had German raiders mining Auckland harbour approaches and the Japanese achieving significant strategic advantage over the entire Pacific in the early days.

Same with Korea, justified in a UN-sanctioned action to nullify a threat posed to a free nation desperately in need of assistance from an invading neighbour.

Vietnam may have been a complete political cockup, but Kiwis saved a heck of a lot of Aussies at Long Tan..who would have surely died had Kiwi Gunners not saved the day.

But in the end, all wars suck, "good" or "bad"....hence what I take from every year's memorial services:

"Lest we forget"

Which I define as both the fallen and the horrible cost of war.

[The GrandMaster]

I'm with you RMB. I certainly pity the poor souls who were no much better than duped into going off and fighting against people they knew nothing about and for reasons that concerned them little.

I while I would never wish to demean or belittle anyone who was unfortunately caught up in such a situation, I have a problem with days like ANZAC Day in that they tend to glorify and celebrate war, rather than highlight its stupidity.

[lanenz]

WOW. Interesting views. For mine, Im against most wars but I tend to think that is human nature. As far as ANZAC is concerned, I dont see it as celebrating or glorifying the wars in any way however other aspects are important. Its important to remember the ones who died for doing their duty for NZ and for the ones who had no choice.

[Placebo]

quote:I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity

RMB you should get down on your knees and give thanks that by some historical fluke you now have the luxury of being able to live in Japan and hold this view. Imagine yourself a citizen of the Dutch East Indies circa 1942, locked in a stinking malaria-infested sewer called a "detention camp" by the Japanese occupiers. I wonder if you would hold this view then?

I don't like the idea of war any more than the next bloke, but you have no right to despise those who (many by their own choice) went to fight in wars for a cause they believed in. Misplaced idealism? Perhaps. But in their eyes they made a sacrifice for their country and that is something I think we have to respect.

On the other side, I have absolutely NO respect for the NZ-born British air force doctor who is prepared to suck on the taxpayer's teat and parade in his uniform then refuse to do his duty when called upon. He is a coward of the highest order.

[minimoke]

quote:Originally posted by rmbbrave

I'm not a big fan of ANZAC day.

I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity.

I would be prepared to risk my life for my family but I certainly wouldn't sacrifice it. The idea of even risking it for my country is laughable.

And this, RMB, is why we should have ANZAC day. You have the freedom to express such a view but we need to be reminded that the soldiers (with the exception of the conscientious objectors and deserters) did not have the choice. We should remember that war is not a good place to be and we should remember that but for the soldiers who did die you and I could well be in a very different place today.

We should in particular remember the stupidity of our political and military masters and take care that we do not see ourselves in similar situations in the future.

Not everyone can get to places like Anzac Cove, Arlington Cemetery or I guess Hiroshima to see the ravages of war so days like yesterday are important to keep some sort of thought in peoples minds.

[belgarion]

quote:Originally posted by Placebo

On the other side, I have absolutely NO respect for the NZ-born British air force doctor who is prepared to suck on the taxpayer's teat and parade in his uniform then refuse to do his duty when called upon. He is a coward of the highest order.


Re ... ... then refuse to do his duty when called upon. He is a coward of the highest order.

Placebo , I suggest you check your facts before labelling this guy a coward.

I understand that he served not one, but two, tours of duty in Iraq before he became convinced that serving in Iraq was illegal and morally wrong.

Further, I'd suggest that publically calling into question both the legality and ethicality of the Rape of Iraq while still a serving officier took a significant amount of moral fortitude. Far more so than those officier who resign first and write books afterwards.

Coward? Not in my book.

[saintjohn]

quote:Originally posted by belgarion


quote:Originally posted by Placebo

On the other side, I have absolutely NO respect for the NZ-born British air force doctor who is prepared to suck on the taxpayer's teat and parade in his uniform then refuse to do his duty when called upon. He is a coward of the highest order.


Re ... ... then refuse to do his duty when called upon. He is a coward of the highest order.

Placebo , I suggest you check your facts before labelling this guy a coward.

I understand that he served not one, but two, tours of duty in Iraq before he became convinced that serving in Iraq was illegal and morally wrong.

Further, I'd suggest that publically calling into question both the legality and ethicality of the Rape of Iraq while still a serving officier took a significant amount of moral fortitude. Far more so than those officier who resign first and write books afterwards.

Coward? Not in my book.

No you wouldn’t, see him as a coward would you? Being the ultimate, spineless, gutless coward you are.

How many times do we have to be told by belgarion that he is ashamed to be a Kiwi!

How many times has he ridiculed our Prime Minister because she refuses to put George Bush in his Place?

His obsession with an American withdrawal from Iraq knows no bounds! Does a normal person bombard Parliament with anti-American emails?


He is ashamed to be a Kiwi because he isn’t one.

His wealth, if it exists comes from his Grandfathers methods in extracting Gold from tooth enamel. (Circa early 1940s)

I could go on but hey!..... Let’s not get personal.

SJ

[Cooper]

quote:Originally posted by rmbbrave

"The idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country" is very much a phenomena of the last few hundred years.

Before that people didn't live in contries they lived in villages. Fighting (and dying) for ones village made far more sense than fighting for your country as your village was bound to have a large number of family members in it.


Pretty irrelevant point when you consider that the periods we are talking about are less than a century ago.


quote:
In the 21st century there are large numbers of people who have lived in several countries and/or have the ability live in many more.

I have the right to live in Japan, OZ and NZ. As an English teacher in Japan I have come to realise that my culture is one that I share with the entire English speaking world.


I applaud that kind of approach.


quote:
I reckon I would be quite happy living in the U.K., South Africa, OZ or NZ (they have cricket) and at a pinch Canada, Ireland, or the U.S.

I would also consider living in Thailand, Bali, Germany or Sweden before I would risk my life defending NZ.

If, 150 years ago, you had told someone living in a village in Bavaria that his grandson would die defending a kaiser from Berlin in 1915, he would have called for the men in white coats.

In the 21st century where people can pick and chose the country they live in, the idea of sacrifcing one's life for one of them, seems as crazy now as it did for humanities entire history save for the past few hundred years.


I also applaud that kind of approach. Blindly committing people to wars fought for reasons which are not directly relevant to the wellbeing of those people has been a little too easy right throughout history.


quote:
The sooner the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country is consigned to history's dustbin the better. But celebrating ANZAC day perpetuates this form of nationalism and helps brainwash the next generation.


Not so sure about this one. There are a number of scenarios I can think of where I'd be quite happy to grab a gun and toddle off to try and shoot people or be shot at. Regardless, ANZAC day doesn't mean a celebration of nationalism. It's not like Koizumi visiting the tombs of dead Japanese soldiers.

If you can ever get any of the old vets to open up and talk about their experiences, you'll find quickly that they are the last to recommend war, either as an individual pursuit or a national outing. These men (and a handful of women) have experienced humanity at it's basest... they've been told that the enemy is an animal and that they have a divine right to kill this enemy. They have been sold an idea of what they're defending, which turns out to be less clear cut and distinct in the cold light of objective hindsight. Oftentimes they've been sacrificed by their "masters" (what an apt word that is) for only marginal benefit or for the glory of one person.

ANZAC day isn't a celebration of the glory of war, it's a day of remembrance for those who went through the horrors of war. Writing off ANZAC day as a celebration of war does a disservice to the poor souls who were sold idealism and bundled off to suffer. The key term is "lest we forget", not "that was fun, let's do it again". While I agree that the twisti

[rmbbrave]

quote:Originally posted by Placebo


quote:I find the idea of sacrifcing one's life for ones country bordering on insanity

RMB you should get down on your knees and give thanks that by some historical fluke you now have the luxury of being able to live in Japan and hold this view.

Placebo you've lost it.

There are billions of historical flukes that have contributed to my existance. If I went down on my knees and gave thanks to all of them I wouldn't have the time to point out what an idiot you are.

The six most important historical flukes are the reasons why life evolved on our planet.

They are ...

1 a stable temperature regime and

2 a liquid milieu to mix

3 the essential building block elements together (carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, sulfur, and transition metals like iron, chromium, and nickel). Since the building block elements are only created in the stars, the best places to look for life is around stars formed from processed gas, ie., look at metal-rich stars.

4 The planet should have a solid surface to concentrate the building block elements together in the liquid on top. The more concentrated the solution of water and molecules is, the more likely the molecules will react with each other. If the molecules were fixed in a solid, they would not be able to get close to each other and react with each other. If the molecules were in a gaseous state, they would be too far apart from each other to react efficiently. Though the reactions could conceivably take place, they would be rare!

5 The planet should also have enough gravity to keep an atmosphere. An atmosphere would shield lifeforms on the surface from harmful radiation (charged particles and high-energy photons) and moderate the changes in temperatures between night and day to maintain a stable temperature regime.

6 A relatively large moon nearby may be needed to keep the planet's rotation axis from tilting too much and too quickly. This prevents large differences in temperatures over short timescales (life needs sufficient time to adapt to temperature changes).

http://www.astronomynotes.com/lifezone/s4.htm

There are billions of "historical flukes" that are far more important than the actions of a few thousand NZ soldiers 50 years ago.

One of my favourites is the Toba Eruption 75,000 years ago.

"There is substantial evidence to show that within the time of the super volcano Toba's eruption in the Indonesian Pacific, the world's population of homo sapiens decreased from over one hundred thousand to around ten thousand."

http://zyx.org/TOBA.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

Homo Sapiens (and my ancestors) came within a hair's breadth of being wiped out. Toba was far more dangerous than WW 2.

Placebo,

You get down on your knees and thank the great volcano Toba for not wiping out the last few thousand of us.

[rmbbrave]

quote:Originally posted by guigle

I am new to this site, but I cannot stomach The Brave Ones (TBO) sophistry.



Some how Guigle, I don't think you're as new as you claim to be.

71 to go.

[belgarion]

quote:Originally posted by saintjohn
He is ashamed to be a Kiwi because he isn’t one.

His wealth, if it exists comes from his Grandfathers methods in extracting Gold from tooth enamel. (Circa early 1940s)

I could go on but hey!..... Let’s not get personal.

SJ



SJ, You remain a fool. And a libelous fool.

For the record, I am a 5th generation Kiwi, very proud of it and, after 10 years working overseas in Europe, Asia and American, are quite happy to call Godzone my home. In fact, I've always called Enzed my home and always compared New Zealand to every other country I've been in ... and found them all, when all things are considered, wanting.

SJ, apart from being a personal attack, your post adds nothing. Placebo will have done his research by now and realised that he was not fully informed of the facts and probably is thinking an apology is appropriate about now. It is up to him whether he posts an apology.

SJ, what have you added? More ill-informed opinion? Thanks. We posters a sharetrader really, really appreciate more b.s. from 'system bludgers' like you.

[saintjohn]

quote:Originally posted by belgarion


quote:Originally posted by saintjohn
He is ashamed to be a Kiwi because he isn’t one.

His wealth, if it exists comes from his Grandfathers methods in extracting Gold from tooth enamel. (Circa early 1940s)

I could go on but hey!..... Let’s not get personal.

SJ



For the record, I am a 5th generation Kiwi, very proud of it and, after 10 years working overseas in Europe, Asia and American, are quite happy to call Godzone my home. In fact, I've always called Enzed my home and always compared New Zealand to every other country I've been in ... and found them all, when all things are considered, wanting.


Yet again you are a liar, lies and more lies. You have said time and again " I am ashamed to call myself a Kiwi" You say you went to University, yet spell like a ten year old!! English is not your native tongue! If you want to continue your Jew hating agenda, Go do it somewhere else....SJ

[belgarion]

quote:Originally posted by barnsley bill


quote:Originally posted by guigle

Sorry, Bill. Two e's in screech.



is there??? You got me. I don't profess to be omnipotent or disparage the education of others though do I. Other than baiting our resident ming the merciless which i must confess has become more fun than watching the electric fish tankb


re ... I don't profess to be omnipotent or disparage the education of others though do I.

Surely BB there must come a time when even you are tired of making a fool of youself?

But please don't stop on my account.

Our daily 'BB', Saint-John or 'Greg' foot-in-mouth laugh is entertaining all S.T. posters.

BTW - How do people of faith feel about the poster who calls himself Saint-John making a fool of himself? I'm not bothered, but if you are ...

[lakedaemonian]

quote:Originally posted by belgarion


quote:Originally posted by saintjohn
He is ashamed to be a Kiwi because he isn’t one.

His wealth, if it exists comes from his Grandfathers methods in extracting Gold from tooth enamel. (Circa early 1940s)

I could go on but hey!..... Let’s not get personal.

SJ



SJ, You remain a fool. And a libelous fool.

For the record, I am a 5th generation Kiwi, very proud of it and, after 10 years working overseas in Europe, Asia and American, are quite happy to call Godzone my home. In fact, I've always called Enzed my home and always compared New Zealand to every other country I've been in ... and found them all, when all things are considered, wanting.

SJ, apart from being a personal attack, your post adds nothing. Placebo will have done his research by now and realised that he was not fully informed of the facts and probably is thinking an apology is appropriate about now. It is up to him whether he posts an apology.

SJ, what have you added? More ill-informed opinion? Thanks. We posters a sharetrader really, really appreciate more b.s. from 'system bludgers' like you.



----------------------

Belgarion!


What say you about this thread YOU created?

Oh so proud to be a KIWI -NOT

http://sharetrader.co.nz/post.asp?method=TopicQuote&TOPIC_ID=22881&FORUM_ID=56

[quote]quote:Originally posted by belgarion

A country like this, if american press were reporting it, would be part of the Axis of Evil... Guess what! It is America!

United States military authorities have taken tougher measures to force-feed detainees engaged in hunger strikes at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, after concluding that some were determined to commit suicide to protest their indefinite confinement, military officials have said.
Tough U.S. Steps in Hunger Strike at Camp in Cuba (http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/nyt041.html)

Damn! Even suicide is not an escape from from torture! That really sucks! :(

And you can hear an outcry from NZ? Ah .... Shhs ... Quiet, Im listening ... Damn still can't hear anything ... I should. Kiwis don't like this sort of thing. And this has been going on for how long? .... What 3 years you say? Surely our Govt would have said something? ... At the UN perhaps? Nope! ... Then directly via an ambassidor?

Aunty Helen ... Do something! :(

You have lost my vote already. :(

If you continue to do nothing I will see to it you lose many more votes! My level of outrage is akin to yours when you protested against the Vietnam War! Can you remember that? Or are you so jaded by political success that you can not remember? :(

Fellow posters, my views, nay extreme outrage, as expressed here is preceded by an email trail with the various NZ political parties and documented from from 2002. The responses, particularly from the major parties including the offices of the leaders, make it completely clear, when read in context, that the major NZ polictical parties are lapdogs to economic interests and their concerns for human rights pails into insignificance behind pandering to the economic status quo. I.e. economic 'worries', far too are many perceived rather than actual, consume the thinking of our political parties. I.e. Fear rules!

So much so - that, on evaluating the email reponses, once can only conclude that: Money for kiwi interests is more important than the live of 000's of humans. Such an attitude in not my New Zealand. If it is - then [b]I am ashamed to be

[lakedaemonian]

Need any MORE rope to hang yourself Belgarion?

You have just performed the interweb's equivalent of opening your mouth and inserting both of your boot clad feet. :D

[lakedaemonian]

bumpity, bump, bump

Well Belgarion?

Are you proud to be a New Zealander today or did you change your mind again? ;)

[rmbbrave]

I'm not proud to be a New Zealander.

I'm not ashamed either.

Basically, I'm indifferent. I would be willing to change my nationality if I could make a few bucks out of it.

[rmbbrave]

A nation in Anzac denial
28 April 2006

By CHRIS TROTTER
We're here because we're here, because we're here, because we're here...


This tongue-in-cheek anthem to utter futility was sung with gusto all along the Western Front during World War I. The tune – an adaptation of Auld Lang Syne – was entirely appropriate. Between a third and half of the men who sang it at the "sharp end" of that pointless conflict never returned to celebrate the 50 New Year's Eves that were their due.

Sadly, we do not sing We're Here at dawn services on Anzac Day. Its lugubrious nihilism would sit uncomfortably alongside the youthful heroism with which the day is still infused. The 18,000 dead of World War I must be shielded from the muck and stink of the killing fields to which they were consigned. Have your say
Should Anzac Day be remembered as New Zealand's national day?

Fill in the feedback form.


For more than 90 years, we have bathed their memories in the radiant colours of idealism and self-sacrifice: singing hymns to the "love that never falters, the love that stands the test/That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best".

But how many of us realise, as we sing the stirring verses of I Vow To Thee My Country, that the God who claimed our dearest and our best was not the Christian Yahweh but Moloch, the insatiable pagan deity into whose fiery bowels the ancient Carthaginians were forced to consign their own children?

To sing We're Here would be to acknowledge that between 1914 and 1918, 20 per cent of our military age population – some 58,000 young men – were needlessly and pointlessly maimed and slaughtered. More importantly, it would be to identify the commission of a vast and unforgivable crime by the imperial and dominion governments of the day.

But that is something which the New Zealand state – and the New Zealand people – will not do. Even after the passage of nine decades, the huge exercise in national denial that is Anzac Day continues.

It is young New Zealanders I feel most sorry for. Every Anzac Day they throng to the cenotaphs and memorials, yearning for some sort of mystical communion with the boys who "shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old", and never quite finding it.

When questioned by breathless young reporters, they speak about the soldiers who "fought for peace", and "died so we could be free". Freedom? Peace? The invasion of Turkey was intended to open the sea lanes to the Russian Empire. Nearly 3000 young Kiwis died at Gallipoli for the tsar of Russia, a ruthless autocrat whose Cossacks, just nine years earlier, had massacred hundreds of his own subjects on "Bloody Sunday".

In modern terms, it would be like asking 3000 young New Zealanders to die for the Chinese politicians who ordered the troops into Tiananmen Square.

Not that the men who volunteered in 1914 objected to invading Turkey. Many of them had acquired a taste for action less than a year earlier when they mounted up and rode into Auckland and Wellington to crush the general strike of 1913. To read the contents of these "special" policemen's newspaper, The Camp Gazette, is to discover the mindset that would later become familiar to the world as fascism.

Oh yes, those boys on the slopes of Gallipoli fought for their king and their country all right, but for "our" freedom? I think not.

Of course the working-class lads whose heads were split open by "Massey's Cossacks" in 1913 later died in considerably greater numbers than did the Anzacs of 1915; the 50,000 killed and wounded of the New Zealand Division didn't suffer in the mud of Flanders for peace and freedom.

They suffered because, as conscripts, they were given little choice.

Bill Massey, New Zealand's ferociously conservative prime minister, introduced conscription in 1916. This bigoted Ulsterman fervently believed that the British were descended from the Israelites and ordained by God to rule the world.

The Labour Party was born out of the struggle to make his hideous sacrifice of a whole generation mean something

[craic]

Today I will stand by the coffin of a man I did not know, face his family and friends and recite the words. "At the going down of the Sun and in the Morning, we will remember them." And I will do that over and over as I am required.