Ethical dilemma

[Lawso]

I'm no tree hugger. I'm very PinC and sometimes I think Capitalist is too liberal for her own good I reckon most of this triple bottomline, corporate governance, sustainable development stuff is bollocks. But I do have ethics. I'll never invest in SKC or a liquor company (except wine) because of the damage they can do to people's lives.

But the latest issue of Consumer magazine has an article highlighting the appalling (Consumer calls it "scandalous") performance of several managed funds, with all of the 13 products surveyed showing little growth, even shrinkage vis-a-vis inflation, of hapless investors' funds. The worst performers are Westpac's Retirement Plans - Balanced Portfolio and Dynamic Portfolio - and Westpac Diversified Trust, all with 2% or less average net return p.a.

Meanwhile WPT shareholders are enjoying capital growth and a 7+% yield. WPT is the third biggest pony in my stable and one of the best performers over time. Shareholders like me are prospering on the backs of savers - many no doubt elderly and poorly advised - who are being hit by high fees and expenses charged by incompetent managers.

Am I a hypocrite in holding on to WPT? Should I sell out and put the money towards Kids with Cancer? And how much do ethical considerations influence other posters' decisions[?]

[Scooter]

well, consider this, invest the way you want, take no prisoners, invest in immoral things to do better than the general market, then give it all to the do gooder societies in your will. Why give them a small amount today, when it could be larger tomorrow? I would bet that most of the societies have investments in immoral things as a diversified portfolio

[Placebo]

I don't have any problem with investing in gambling and booze. And why single out wine? It's as abused as any other form of alcohol.

The only thing "scandalous" about the Consumer view is that it's taken this long to arrive at it. Managed funds have underperformed for years. I'm one of the suckers that was persuaded to buy into one in the 80s. The only thing that got me ahead was AMP demutualising and dishing out some shares, which I promptly sold.

I've been following the antics of the New York District Attorney Elliot Spitzer with some interest, he has been targeting corrupt practices on Wall St, which may seem a long way off but have clear implications for NZ investors paying into managed funds. That's where a lot of it ends up. Have a net search on `Spitzer fund manager' and see what it throws up. The behaviour of these guys is unbelievable. Some are paid more than the CEs of Fortune 500 coys. And the chain of hands (and fees) between Joe Public and the market is enormous. No wonder the fees are front-loaded, every man and his dog has his hand out. Check this: http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2152046.

I decided a long time ago I could do a better job than the fund managers. And you know what? I was right.

[Capitalist]

You taking my name in vain Lawso? ;)

As a WPT shareholder you are carrying a substantial risk which the bank's savings account holders are not.You are not "prospering on the backs of savers." If account holders go into overdraft or have a loan, the bank is carrying their risk-- for a price. It isn't a zero-sum game in which what is gained by some comes from what is lost by others.

WPT doesn't force anyone to bank with them, if customers don't like them for whatever reason they are quite free to take their business elsewhere. Just as you are free to invest where you want to. It's your call and all power to you.

[J. Holmes]

Managed funds are the worlds largest skimming operation.

Having once worked quite close to the industry (being involved in Superannuation funds are unit trusts) I was appalled at the number of 'hangers-on' that stick around the funds taking their fees etc.

The majority never return anywhere near what they should, seeing as they are run by so-called professionals. I have encouraged my family to never invest in them....

[Gryffyn]

No Lawso you are not. I think your individual/personal approach to ethicical investment is laudable and the key thing is what makes you feel good.

With regard to WPT I actually agree with Cap on this one. You are taking risk and WPT operate in a regulated environment. They don't set out to disadvantage policy holders or do other socially damaging stuff (like SKC to your mind). Hopefully the market will take care od these underperforming investments, e.g. holders would have been better off just having WPT shares.

It's a shame that so many funds have underperformed and are structured so badly with fees etc but that is caveat emptor there.

Go the consumer for pointing it out and maybe change may occur, but I don't think you should sell on account of that issue.

[Gryffyn]

Cantab - they might be better off investing in these funds than throwing the money away but consumer found they were worse off than putting it in the bank.

PS - Lawso - change your title Ehicle? Was it supposed to be Vehicle investing or Ethicle?

[Halebop]

quote:Originally posted by Scooter

well, consider this, invest the way you want, take no prisoners, invest in immoral things to do better than the general market, then give it all to the do gooder societies in your will. Why give them a small amount today, when it could be larger tomorrow? I would bet that most of the societies have investments in immoral things as a diversified portfolio


Hi Scooter. I actually agree with you but just playing the devil's advocate here. Ethics are the hardest thing to judge. At what point is it not OK to invest in something? I could kill someone because they left me in their will - a venture of sorts. I could peddle drugs or invest in a drug peddling scheme. In fact, I was offered just such an "opportunity" a decade or so ago to help fund a methamphetamine (spelling?) operation. I chose not to - on legal and ethical grounds - rather than financial. The instigator later went to jail on a related matter. One of his financial partners is as a result of his involvement quite comfortably well off and was neither implicated nor went to jail. Although no longer "trading" as such, he certainly made crime pay.

I have shares in Adultshop.com - a purveyer of Porn amoungst other adult related themes. I'd argue I just bought a share of an under-rated business at a cheap price. However, by my actions, I've helped objectify women (and god knows what else!) and kept money grabbing plastic surgeons and Dow Corning in business. There is certainly little in the way of artistic merit in the process. How has society benefited other than earning me a few dollars? Now that I've left a few Has-Been Porn Actresses with emotional scars and size D breasts, can I redeem myself by setting up a trust to pay for their counselling and breast reductions?

P.S. ASC are still cheap! 8.3 cents at last count. [}:)]

[willy_wonker]

You can invest in SKC and donate 20% of your capital gains to charity to make you feel good.

I understand how you feel, I too think about these things. [8)]

[Lawso]

Thanks Gryff. And to think I started my working life as a newspaper proof-reader! [:I]

To other posters - thanks for helping to make this a v worthwhile thread. A few things to think about [^]

[Placebo]

Perhaps the question is What is an "Unethical Investment"?

Greenpeace have taken issue with Auckland airport having a chemical incinerator on their land -- does this make AIA environmentally damaging and therefore off the "ethical" list?

Oil (energy?) companies are investigating alternative fuels/solar energy. Is this ethical enough to be off the "unethical" list. Is being part of an industry that is responsible for most greenhouse gas emissions itself enough to be regarded as "unethical"?

It's all very subjective. Some companies whose business you might consider unsavoury act with great ethics, give a lot back to the community etc. You could even say this about fag and booze companies. You might think pharmaceutical companies do a lot of good research and develop products that benefit mankind... however some of their actions are deeply unethical.

Not sure what criteria I'd use.

You could have a lot of fun building an "unethical" portfolio. Isn't there a listed brothel in Aust somewhere? Add that to the porn company, arms manufacturers, booze, fag and drug companies...

[willy_wonker]

Cantab...lol.. It is all fun mate.

Sometimes, words come out of my mouth without due diligence. :D

Nightmare's psycho stalking of me due to my stand on the Iraq issue made me look abit silly. Maybe I should have ignored him, but then I have never stand down in a fight.

Halebop, are you the best customer at Aultshop.com?;)

[Gryffyn]

Cantab - Exactly what I'm saying - better in bank than the funds looked at by consumer. Ans in some cases the funds lost money so sometimes under mattress better!

Placebo - Yup, not always black and white at all. Some obviously are but others...

For me I wouldn't invest (knowingly) directly in a tobabaco corp as they are managed by evil scum who covered up harmful / addictive effects etc. But that's just my choice.

[Halebop]

quote:Originally posted by Placebo

You could have a lot of fun building an "unethical" portfolio. Isn't there a listed brothel in Aust somewhere? Add that to the porn company, arms manufacturers, booze, fag and drug companies...

We could build the "Ue20" - Unethical Top 20.

Lion Nathan/Fosters
Tab/Tabcorp/Unitab/Sky City/PBL etc
Adultshop
Daily Planet
Metal Storm

[Gryffyn]

HB - good laugh. Did you read report other week that an ethical fund in US was one of the best performing!

Personally I think companies like BIL are most unethical as they take all punters money, lose/waste it and pay themselves huge fees, bonuses, options and golden handshakes.

[willy_wonker]

What about management telling fibs to investors to keep the share price up and/or cooking the books? Will that be listed in the UE20?

That will rule out 50% of the companies listed that we will not invest in.

[mikescott]

Adultshop and Daily Planet they be more truthful and ethical than most of the posters they be writing in this forum. They be exactly what they be and they be not pretending to be anything else.

You be checking some of the postings by some posters in this forum and they be liars, dishonest, failures and brokers they be writing to suck peoples into buying bad stocks.

Minder Don't forget the bigots

[David Renwick]

Ethics - smethics. Bah![}:)]
All us is supping wit de devil to some degree. But it's not about degrees. You is or you ain't.
If you wants to give to the Sallies that's great cos' they wldn't be getting the dosh otherwise and deys down on homos too, if that appeals. If you want to then eat lotsa Big Macs [xx(]then you'll be saving children's lives for child cancer care/research, if you believe the hype. (Gag & double gag!)

In conclusion: Do what makes you feels good about yourself and remember that we (our ego) do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except to benefit ourselves.

I recall Access Brokerage advertising several managed funds that were "ethical" or ecology-sensitive etc etc. Not sure if NZ had one but Oz did.

[craic]

You buy shares because you believe that you can make a profit at the expense of the sucker who is foolish enough to sell them to you. You offer your shares for sale in the hope that there is someone out there foolish enough to buy them from you even though it is evident that now is the time to quit that security. Catholics go to Cnnfession - Protestants have ethical dilemmas - Jews just keep on counting the shekels and Maori of all denominations just invent another Waitangi claim.

[stephen]

This particular Jew, craic, does not like your attitude, and would appreciate you keeping your racist bull**** to yourself. (And doesn't have any SKC shares either, because I find the business distasteful).

[Capitalist]

This is a funny old place Stephen. I put up a post about racism on the Reagan thread. It's only ok if it is directed at Americans or The Jew.

Am Yisrael Chai!



http://reborn-by-design.com/if-03.jpg

[craic]

As an Irishman of Catholic origins, stephen, I couldn't give a toss about your sensitivities. I have to listen to every Irish joke that any halfwit decides to drag up. I don't know any Jews except the ones I see slaughtering Palestinians on TV every night.


Three Religious Truths
1. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

2. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith.

and...


3. Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store or at nudie clubs.

[Halebop]

quote:Originally posted by craic


...Three Religious Truths
1. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah...

Some Jews actually do. Funny old thing religion.

However, there is some historical basis in the Jews and shekels comment, as offensive as it comes across. No offence intended Stephen - I'm from a Jewish family myself.

I always find it interesting how the line blurs with Jewish faith and race. Even Stephen called it "racist" bullcr@p! The jewish part of my family traces back to Ireland anyhow - so I could probably cop it on both sides.

Back to Jews and shekels: One theory has it that because Jews have historically been isolated by their religious differences, they have had to become self sufficient. Following the Republican party line of thinking, this self determination, tempered to steel by inhospitable societies, leads to a positive attitude and number 7 wire mentality that augments a business mindset wonderfully. The isolation and certain religious factors also uphold a strong family unit. So the same business or trade or ethics were historically passed down through the family and a foundation of wealth created. The so called House of Rothschild is a perfect example. Perhaps better called Houses of Rothchilds. What conspiracy theorists like to point to as zionist plots is merely a reflection of strong cultural values and ignorance. Probably an Irish-Catholic plot used to destabilize the price of potatoes. [:o)]

I tried studying theology for a while but gave up. I might get back to it one day (he says with about as much ferver as someone contemplating a pile of dirty dishes). My Great Grandmother was a strong Jewish matriarch unfortunately her "modern" children (back in the 1940's) had different ideas and the family had a falling outs of sorts. Inexplicably, she left a substantial estate worth (according to family legend) a couple of hundred thousand pounds to a Catholic convent in Ireland! Go figure. As a result I had to go out and earn my own shekels. :sigh:

Disclosure: An open mind but no religious affiliation or beliefs.

[Halebop]

Wow!

This thread has come a long way from ethics and porn shares!

[Lawso]

quote:
Wow!

This thread has come a long way from ethics and porn shares!

That's one of the things I like about ST.

[craic]

Hleebop, as a lapsed catholic from Dublin, the capital city of Holy Catholic Ireland, I know that the Lord Mayor of Dublin, during my formative years was a Jew. My mother worked her fingers to the bone at IMCO, The Invisible Mending Company, owned by the Spiro brothers, definite Yiddish connection and they weren't bad employers. My son currently earns megabucks in London working for Goldman Sachs. I wonder how Stephen copes with Goldstein? - or maybe he is Goldstein.

[mikescott]

Adultshop and Daily Planet I be hope that they be ensure no funds be invested in them from Catholic Church funds as such funds be from order which allowed priests to sexually abuse innocent children.

If such crimes be not bad enough, Catholic Church it moves such bad priests to other places to cover up and allow them to continue to sexually abuse more innocent children.

[Gryffyn]

Cap - Racism, whoever it is directed against, is bad. But why, as a self-confessed libertarian, are you a friend of Israel?

[mikescott]

And Salvation Army be banned too from investing in anything as Sallies also turned blind eye to be sexual abusing of innocent children and ward under its care.

Disgraceful. Daily Planet & Adultshop be saints compared to such hypocrisy.

[Capitalist]

You make some good points Minder. Gryffyn I'll post this FYI but I'm not going to get into an anti-Semitic bunfight. Just a few reasons why I am a proud friend of Israel.

Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Arabs don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in squalor?

Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years ? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?


Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?


Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?


Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?


Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?


If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?


Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?


Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for

[mikescott]

Don't waste too much breath, Cap - you are interacting with losers who realised a long time ago that Israel can now totally defeat the Arabs who tried to wipe Israel off the Middle East. There's nothing worse than bleeding-heart loonies who have no appreciation of real history.

Still, it's fun to watch them thrash around like the incompetent impotent fools that they are. :D

[craic]

This one's for those of you who have become so incensed at whatever it you have become incensed at that you have jammed your head in the railings. While you wait for the fire brigade to arrive read and ponder the following tale.
The Dog and the Leopard
A wealthy man decided to go on a safari in Africa. He took his faithful pet dog along for company. One day the dog starts chasing butterflies and before long he discovers that he is lost. So, wandering about he notices a leopard heading rapidly in his direction with the obvious intention of having lunch.

The dog thinks, "Boy, I'm in deep doo doo now."

Then he noticed some bones on the ground close by, and immediately settles down to chew on the bones with his back to the approaching cat. Just as the leopard is about to leap, the dog exclaims loudly, "Man, that was one delicious leopard. I wonder if there are any more around here?"


Hearing this the leopard halts his attack in mid stride, as a look of terror comes over him, he slinks away into the trees. "Whew," says the leopard. "That was close. That dog nearly had me."

Meanwhile, a monkey who had been watching the whole scene from a nearby tree figures he can put this knowledge to good use and trade it for protection from the leopard. So, off he goes. But the dog saw him heading after the leopard with great speed, and figured that something must be up.

The monkey soon catches up with the leopard, spills the beans and strikes a deal for himself with the leopard. The cat is furious at being made a fool of and says, "Here monkey, hop on my back and see what's going to happen to that conniving canine.

Now the dog sees the leopard coming with the monkey on his back, and thinks, "What am I going to do now?"

But instead of running, the dog sits down with his back to his attackers pretending he hasn't seen them yet. And just when they get close enough to hear, the dog says, "Where's that monkey? I just can never trust him! I sent him off half an hour ago to bring me another leopard, and he's still not back!!"

By the way Craic is pronounced crack.

[willy_wonker]

Did you know that the Catholic Church invest their funds in the equities market? This is in conjunction with all the properties they own in the Mission Bay, Kohi area.

Church = Rich

Willy thinks all religion is BS. If you have donw nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

WW the quickest way to get rich start a new religon and Non taxable.

[willy_wonker]

In my time I have met a fair few people who say they go to church regularly, yet they lie, cheat and scam others. You have to turn on the TV on Sunday morning to see the number of mass media American churchs to brain wash you. The funniest ones are the ones that make the believers pay 10-20% of their income to the church..lol, as if government tax is not enough. Religion is a large multi national business that has influence in the government. Muslim, America and others all use religion in the name of "God" to brain wash the mass people (sheep).

The next world war will be based on religion?

Scary stuff.

[craic]

No Willie Wonker - The question is, are you a monkey or a dog or a leopard?

[David Renwick]

Re' Cap's recap of recent M.E. history (and a self-indulgent stream-of-consciousness from me on this cold ChCh morning.)
The democracy and behaviour of Israel and Israelis is on the whole more appealing than the state-sanctioned barbarism of other Middle-Eastern ogliarchic countries. Like most of us I get upset by unfathomable errors of judgement or other P.R.- destroying inhumane military/strategic blunders that they make. Bear in mind that most "Arab" countries have wanted to wipe Israel & Israelis off the earth and have no qualms about whether their victims are professional soldiers or beautiful three year-old girls clutching their dollies on their way to kindy. They're in a state of guerilla war and caca (FR) happens.

Having abundant oil doesn't automatically endow a nation with "civilised" behaviour. Being forced to adhere to and celebrate (worship) rigid ancient beliefs and customs without being able to question them openly (the Afghani film "Osama" may illucidate)will serve to reinforce injustices, tend to bug ger any country and make its people intolerant & full of hate for their neighbours,e.g. Nthrn Ireland, Yugoslavia & Rwanda more recently Sudan where there's another genocidal ethnic-cleansing taking place. Given their brother-Africans and the West's sluggish reaction to this and what occurred in Rwanda and the Congo I can only assume that in this case exclusively black Africans with s.f.a. in the way of strategic resources, are being oppressed by "Arab/Islamic" Africans and are small beer and less deserving of assistance. Some black Africans are Islamic and some aint. (Beats me.) I can do nothing to stop it other than to agitate my MP for him to do something.

Most days I celebrate my luck in being born here, and being able to choose the live the way I want to without living in fear of the Gov't, neighbours, proselytising 7th Day Adventist door-knockers, being bottled, gobbed on or thumped in Colombo St, or not least wacko Sharetrader posters.

Well I'm off to either open a vein, or better still get brekky (see if you can stop me.):D[:p]

Cracker yarn Craic.;)

[Halebop]

Yes great story Craic!

At the risk of appearing partisan, I agree with most of Cap's editorial standpoint on Isreal rather than some of the alternatives.

My one point of discomfort is that state sanctioned terrorism (Arab, Jew or American/Western) is still terrorism! A difficult question to ponder.

Now we are even further from the ethics of investing! [:p] (though still well within the realm of ethics)