View Full Version : Nuclear Paranoia
What is it about the kiwi psyche that perpetuates the nuclear Ludditism that has:
Eliminated NZ from the ANZUS alliance and effectively reduced NZ to a defence bludger.
Costs us millions in US Navy ship visits as thousands of sailors spend up and ships replenish supplies.
Prevents debate on the installation of 3rd generation nuclear power plants.
Suggest you look at the Finnish and French nuclear plants before saying that we are missing out on Nuclear. Once these plants are finished it seems that the power produced will be cost about 5 or 6 times that of wind and other renewables. Massively over budget both of them and turning into a real headache for the Finn's.The French won't admit to problems but they are there.
Nuclear is not an option till they develop fusion plants, till then let the Frogs waste their cash and we can stick to cheaper and easier alternatives.
Dr_Who
31-01-2009, 09:34 AM
I am all for nuclear free NZ. We should stay nuclear free.
Greart for tourism and the NZ export industry. Tourist visit NZ cos of our Pure, Clean Green image.
Financially dependant
31-01-2009, 10:18 AM
I am all for nuclear free NZ. We should stay nuclear free.
Greart for tourism and the NZ export industry. Tourist visit NZ cos of our Pure, Clean Green image.
Spot on Doc..
It is our point of difference!
What would we do with a 1000MW nuclear reactor that you can't turn off anyway??? (way to big for NZ)
shasta
31-01-2009, 11:28 AM
Spot on Doc..
It is our point of difference!
What would we do with a 1000MW nuclear reactor that you can't turn off anyway??? (way to big for NZ)
Great thinking by the "looney left", but we haver a rather large energy problem in NZ looming.
Wind & Solar won't ever be sufficient to replace what we already have.
(Wellington & Manawatu will be ok with the wind ;))
When the Maui cheap gas runs out, NZ will be fully exposed to international prices for oil, gas & eventually LNG etc.
The greenies/lefties don't like coal...
Geothermal hasn't got widespread support, Labour wanted to stop anymore capacity.
Hydro is still at the mercy of the weather gods
Nuclear energy is safe, cheap & many multiple times more efficient than any other method of energy, yet NZ still takes the view of a now dead idiot former PM.
With the communist labour party now ousted, perhaps it's time to have a serious debate about Nuclear energy, which will be the way of the future.
Financially dependant
31-01-2009, 11:43 AM
Great thinking by the "looney left", but we haver a rather large energy problem in NZ looming.
Wind & Solar won't ever be sufficient to replace what we already have.
(Wellington & Manawatu will be ok with the wind ;))
When the Maui cheap gas runs out, NZ will be fully exposed to international prices for oil, gas & eventually LNG etc.
The greenies/lefties don't like coal...
Geothermal hasn't got widespread support, Labour wanted to stop anymore capacity.
Hydro is still at the mercy of the weather gods
Nuclear energy is safe, cheap & many multiple times more efficient than any other method of energy, yet NZ still takes the view of a now dead idiot former PM.
With the communist labour party now ousted, perhaps it's time to have a serious debate about Nuclear energy, which will be the way of the future.
I am going to cut through all your political ranting Shasta :) and challenge you on Nuclear energy!
How are you going to install a nuclear power plant into NZ current generation mix?
As a clue look at the size of Huntley and the size of average nuclear power plant. I wouldn't get side-tracked on future technology!
I wanted Project Aqua to get through but hey-ho..
shasta
31-01-2009, 12:19 PM
I am going to cut through all your political ranting Shasta :) and challenge you on Nuclear energy!
How are you going to install a nuclear power plant into NZ current generation mix?
As a clue look at the size of Huntley and the size of average nuclear power plant. I wouldn't get side-tracked on future technology!
I wanted Project Aqua to get through but hey-ho..
I'm an Accountant, not a Nuclear scientist, but if the UK, France, USA & many other countries can use nuclear energy efficiently, why can't we?
The UK is smaller than NZ in size, yet has 19 reactors!
BTW, Note on the link below NZ is the only place "nuclear free"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country
Why not have a nuclear power plant in the middle of the North Island desert road, there's little signs of life for miles around, a bit of snow & ice in the winter & only really a prison nearby...
Better still use an old Russian sub, in the Auckland Harbour :D
Financially dependant
31-01-2009, 01:05 PM
I'm an Accountant, not a Nuclear scientist, but if the UK, France, USA & many other countries can use nuclear energy efficiently, why can't we?
The UK is smaller than NZ in size, yet has 19 reactors!
BTW, Note on the link below NZ is the only place "nuclear free"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country
Why not have a nuclear power plant in the middle of the North Island desert road, there's little signs of life for miles around, a bit of snow & ice in the winter & only really a prison nearby...
Better still use an old Russian sub, in the Auckland Harbour :D
Ok for all the accountants out there that think we can use Nuclear power in NZ.....;)
The UK has 40+ million people to our 4 million and therefore need a much larger constant base load!
NZ has no were to put the power a 1000 MegaWatt capacity of a nuclear power plant once all our jug's have boiled (at peak demand time). We need smaller scale power options close to demand, North Island geothermal is a good option so is Gas peaking plants and project aqua type hydro with Cook straight cables upgraded.
Wind turbines widely distributed around the country to round it off.
shasta
31-01-2009, 01:30 PM
Ok for all the accountants out there that think we can use Nuclear power in NZ.....;)
The UK has 40+ million people to our 4 million and therefore need a much larger constant base load!
NZ has no were to put the power a 1000 MegaWatt capacity of a nuclear power plant once all our jug's have boiled (at peak demand time). We need smaller scale power options close to demand, North Island geothermal is a good option so is Gas peaking plants and project aqua type hydro with Cook straight cables upgraded.
Wind turbines widely distributed around the country to round it off.
The 1000 Megawatt plant was the largest in the UK, obviously we don't need that much capacity, that's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick that out.
BTW - I do agree with you re project aqua, it would have just about sorted NZ's energy needs!
Perhaps that energy company CNM:ASX with the wave technology could be a goer in the Cook Strait?
I can only see energy costs going one way...:(
PS, Countries with Nuclear Reactors & a smaller population than NZ are:
Armenia (1), Slovenia(1), Lithuania(1),
Financially dependant
31-01-2009, 02:34 PM
The 1000 Megawatt plant was the largest in the UK, obviously we don't need that much capacity, that's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick that out.
BTW - I do agree with you re project aqua, it would have just about sorted NZ's energy needs!
Perhaps that energy company CNM:ASX with the wave technology could be a goer in the Cook Strait?
I can only see energy costs going one way...:(
PS, Countries with Nuclear Reactors & a smaller population than NZ are:
Armenia (1), Slovenia(1), Lithuania(1),
Agreed, the 1000MW was off the top of my head... but in principle it is the same, a huge lumpy power supply that doesn't suit our isolated volatile power demand.
The countries you quote with smaller populations are all connected to a large landmass (& interconnected with surrounding grids) with the ability to export/dump power at low demand times unlike NZ.
Yes I get very excited about different technologies tide and wave generation has a great future :).
As an accountant you can see there is no point importing fuel, be it Uranium or oil if we have plenty of other options at our feet (solar, wind, water and tides)?
shasta
31-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Agreed, the 1000MW was off the top of my head... but in principle it is the same, a huge lumpy power supply that doesn't suit our isolated volatile power demand.
The countries you quote with smaller populations are all connected to a large landmass (& interconnected with surrounding grids) with the ability to export/dump power at low demand times unlike NZ.
Yes I get very excited about different technologies tide and wave generation has a great future :).
As an accountant you can see there is no point importing fuel, be it Uranium or oil if we have plenty of other options at our feet (solar, wind, water and tides)?
As a consumer of power, i would hope our Govt & the main energy companies are doing there best to ensure constant supply, at a reasonable price.
If NZ can use solar, water, wind, methane from cow sh*t etc, i don't care so long as the ultimate end user ie us, don't end up paying forever increasing power bills, because we have to import our energy from overseas!
Financially dependant
31-01-2009, 03:13 PM
As a consumer of power, i would hope our Govt & the main energy companies are doing there best to ensure constant supply, at a reasonable price.
If NZ can use solar, water, wind, methane from cow sh*t etc, i don't care so long as the ultimate end user ie us, don't end up paying forever increasing power bills, because we have to import our energy from overseas!
I hope so too...
Totally agree it just happens our indigenous, cost effective energy supplies are clean and green too.
hiawatha
31-01-2009, 03:37 PM
As a consumer of power, i would hope our Govt & the main energy companies are doing there best to ensure constant supply, at a reasonable price.
If NZ can use solar, water, wind, methane from cow sh*t etc, i don't care so long as the ultimate end user ie us, don't end up paying forever increasing power bills, because we have to import our energy from overseas!
The world will eventually run out of uranium, just as it will eventually run out of petroleum, natural gas, and coal, though probably not in our lifetimes. Nevertheless we should be thinking in terms of sustainable power sources such as wind and biofuels for our future needs rather than non-renewables.
hiawatha
Yankiwi
31-01-2009, 03:43 PM
The world will eventually run out of uranium, just as it will eventually run out of petroleum, natural gas, and coal, though probably not in our lifetimes. Nevertheless we should be thinking in terms of sustainable power sources such as wind and biofuels for our future needs rather than non-renewables.
hiawatha
Who is to say we will have a constant wind supply 50 years from now? Did mother nature have some information about the future slip out? :rolleyes:
hiawatha
31-01-2009, 06:56 PM
Who is to say we will have a constant wind supply 50 years from now? Did mother nature have some information about the future slip out? :rolleyes:
Obviously there are things we can't be sure about, but I think we can be fairly sure fossil fuels and fissionable materials will run out one day.
hiawatha
Obviously there are things we can't be sure about, but I think we can be fairly sure fossil fuels and fissionable materials will run out one day.
hiawatha
Some idiot in Greenpeace in Auckland made the public statement that all the uranium on earth will be exhausted in 60 years. I emailed this moron and requested clarification but no reply, big surprise.
Uranium's everywhere hiawatha, even under your house but probably not in large quantities. There's no shortage.
The 1000 Megawatt plant was the largest in the UK, obviously we don't need that much capacity, that's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick that out.
BTW - I do agree with you re project aqua, it would have just about sorted NZ's energy needs!
Perhaps that energy company CNM:ASX with the wave technology could be a goer in the Cook Strait?
I can only see energy costs going one way...:(
PS, Countries with Nuclear Reactors & a smaller population than NZ are:
Armenia (1), Slovenia(1), Lithuania(1),
All 3 are integrated with other energy users and can export and import electricity to suit demand and once again nuclear power is more expensive than renewable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_Nuclear_Power_Plant
http://www.power-technology.com/projects/Olkiluoto/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_new_nuclear_power_plants
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-finnuclear_21bus.ART0.State.Edition1.4a5e710.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFh1ySJ.lYQc&refer=home
please note that expected final cost for the Finnish plant is over 4billion euros. Thats $10000000000 Kiwi!!!!!!! Thats just the cost of building it. I use Finland as an example as it has a population of just over 5mill and I have lived there. Also my best friend there is the head of the Fire department for a major city so is up on the risk mangagement side of things.
Nuclear power cheap!! Crap. They still haven't paid for the uranium or disposal costs. Also thats more than enough to put a large wind turbine in every backyard in NZ!!!
You don't need 1000mw reactors, apparently Toshiba have invented a smaller reactor that can power large buildings or city blocks.
Westinghouse say they can build reactors for US$1400/kw and US$1000/kw for subsequent reactors.
Tide, solar, wind, pie in the sky stuff.
belgarion
01-02-2009, 10:20 AM
A fascinating thread with some very 60's type of thinking, some very poor science and an obviously lack of study from the pro-nuke camp. Couple of things to add into the debate, particularly as I've mentioned them before but (as usual) some elements of this forum simply can't read or think, or won't!
Shasta, NZ is on a fairly volitile faultine. Your suggestion of placing a nuclear power plant right beside one of the most active parts (central N.I. plateau) is most amusing. Choose another area. Perhaps where you live ... ;)
Skol, the fact the person from greenpeace didn't respond to your email doesn't supprise me. This doesn't make him/her a moron. It might however indicate that it is you that is the moron if you think it'll ever be cost effective to extract and refine the U-235 under your house. (That post is just so funny. I couldn't believe it. I had to read it about 3 times just in case you were hinting at way that U-235 could be extracted from such low densities. But no, just you making a fool of yourself again. Brilliantly funny tho!)
High densitities of U235 exist in only a few countries. But like extracting oil from low-yeild sources (like oil-sands) they may become economic to extract in other places at some stage. But that's unlikely as by that time renewable sources will be far more economic. Note that the same applies to oil as well. I.e. price of oil goes up and suddenly wind/tide/wav power becomes economically viable.
Wind/tide/wave power ... The age old "the wind doesn't blow all the time" argument. Boy, is this one is worn out! The real question is how to store the energy for when we need it. The most obvious, for NZ at least, is to use the energy when the wind/tide/waves are blowing/running/big and pump water back uphill! This is already done in other parts of the world and works very well indeed ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped_storage_hydroelectricity ... for gods sake read this link and follow the links to working examples! (You'll note btw that NZ is conspicuously absent from the list of coutries already using this type of energy storage.) I note that one particular dam planned in the S.I. is ideally placed to use this technology.
Cooks Strait - See this http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4751082a6008.html ... loved this : "Cook Strait had a "pessimistic capacity" of 7000 turbines, but that many would provide much more power than needed, he said." ... Thats 7,000 MWhs of completely predictable electricity. Add that generation capacity together with pumping water back uphill to store it, and we're away laughing. However, the environmental impacts need some consideration. The underwater "noise" might affect marine life, particlarly larger ones like whales, dophins and sharks. Any of course, anything that slows down the tides might slow down the moon leading to longer months with the evenitable collapse of the lunar orbit and the moon crashing into the Earth ... ;)
At present NZ has very cheap electricity when compared to most other developed nation. I note that our energy supply and generation companies are doing their very best to rectify this anomoly by hiking prices as fast as they can.
The cost of nuclear? wiser posters have already commented that nuclear doesn't come cheap. Further, many govts are actively disguising the true cost of nuclear power. Why would they do that? ... Which leads conveniently onto another observation ...
The countries that 'support' nuclear technologies also have nuclear weaponry or are capable of producing it. Note that Japan is an 'supposedly' an exception but trace the history and you'll find the US was involved. Yes, there are some very small countries that have nuclear power stations but when one delves into who actually controls/operates those plants you're back to the usual suspects.
Another issue. If NZ has nuclear power, why shouldn't anyone? I.e. Iran. Given some of the fascist posts I've seen on this forum I'd be highly suspect of NZ's maturity if we had nuclear power. Some moron of the Muldoon type could appear at any time and we'll join the arms race.
Anyways. Ignore the last observations as they are subjective and are likely to inflame the rabid right. Please address the replies to:
1) Storing energy from transient wind/tide/wave energy
2) Tidal power, particularly the trial in Cooks Strait
3) The true cost of nuclear power.
belgarion
01-02-2009, 10:32 AM
You don't need 1000mw reactors, apparently Toshiba have invented a smaller reactor that can power large buildings or city blocks.
Love to see evidence of that! Can we put one in your backyard?
But on a serious note, there are hydrogen fuel cell generators that do the same. From memory Toshoba is actually a supplier of these. (Makes me wonder if skol hasn't confused the two.) These are being used by the Japanese at an increasing rate as they're relatively inexpensive, safe and environmentally friendly. Last time I looked, Japan had one of the fastest uptakes of this type of generation with most new buildings having them. Such a h-fuel cell is slightly larger than a standard marine cargo container (TFE). And once again, renewables can be used to create the hydrogen from water. Note this isn't done at present as using natural gas(?) is cheaper.
Westinghouse say they can build reactors for US$1400/kw and US$1000/kw for subsequent reactors.
Great analyse again skol. Any chance you can post the costs to:
1) buy the fuel
2) run the plant
3) mitigate for leaks/disasters
4) dispose of the spent fuel.
craic
01-02-2009, 10:44 AM
Google -Toshiba Nuclear Power - and you will get all the details - the man is right. How soon can I run my quad bike it?
belgarion,
The 'moron ' I referred to was someone by the name of Simon Boxer whose insight into the availability of uranium exceeded that of the collective wisdom of all the geologists in the world i.e. ,that all the uranium of earth (in recoverable quantities I assume) will be exhausted in 60 years. He didn't reply because this assertion was so incredibly stupid that he couldn't.
New technology's evolving all the time as as even as someone as naive as you will know belgarion it gets cheaper.
There are 2 operating reactors in California, an area riddled with fault lines. There are 25 fault lines within a few miles of LAX airport but it still seems to function normally.
Please provide an example of existing tidal power technology available now, not 2050.
belgarion
01-02-2009, 10:55 AM
New technology's evolving all the time as as even as someone as naive as you will know belgarion it gets cheaper.
There are 2 operating reactors in California, an area riddled with fault lines. There are 25 within a few miles of LAX airport but it still seems to function normally.
Please provide an example of existing tidal power technology available now, not 2050.
Logic's not your strong point is it skol? Suggest you read what you just wrote. You are quickly become more amusing than MVT.
Any chance you can post the costs to:
1) buy the fuel
2) run the plant
3) mitigate for leaks/disasters
4) dispose of the spent fuel.
http://nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/WebHomeCostOfNuclearPower
Logic's not your strong point is it skol? Suggest you read what you just wrote. You are quickly become more amusing than MVT.
I meant what I wrote, ever heard of LAX airport being written off. One fault line is .25 miles off the end of RWY 25L, but the locals don't display the kind of hysteria you do.
Yankiwi
01-02-2009, 11:22 AM
I'm a bit surprised that NZ doesn't use any sort of pump storage (that I'm aware of) which is being used within 10 miles from where I came from in the states.
http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp
It's a VERY effective in both cost and potential. Have a look.
Note: There is also a link to their bald eagle nest web cam which should be up and going in the next month or so (spring time)
Pissed off with Genesis?
www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html
lakedaemonian
01-02-2009, 06:01 PM
2 words:
pebble bed
:)
Financially dependant
01-02-2009, 08:11 PM
Pissed off with Genesis?
www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html
"The new revolutionary technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6"
I think Mitre 10 have in it stock :D!
I went up to Geddies pass today and saw Windflow technology's turbine in action in a strong Nor'wester.... Scary..:eek: but very impressive! I didn't realise the turbines wobbled so much. This is the future and it is here and now.
NZ$2000 kw beat that...
minimoke
02-02-2009, 08:54 AM
I still can’t reconcile the “NZ Clean Green” image argument with wind turbines. Turbines are the ultimate in visual and noise pollution and for this alone don’t get my vote. But back to Skols OP, nuclear power in NZ is just not going to happen. It won’t happen until we stop seeing nuclear as the worse evil on earth. So perhaps the first discussion we should have as a nation is “are we prepared to let Nuclear powered vessels visit our ports.” 6,000 air and ship crew would do a lot of good for our local economy so it would get my vote.
The United Arab Emirates (population 4.5m) has just entered into an agreement with the USA to acquire nuclear technology and power, but not the kind that results in spent material that can be recycled for weapons.
The United Arab Emirates (population 4.5m) has just entered into an agreement with the USA to acquire nuclear technology and power, but not the kind that results in spent material that can be recycled for weapons.
Just the type that needs secure storage for 100000 years then.
shasta
03-02-2009, 06:02 PM
A fascinating thread with some very 60's type of thinking, some very poor science and an obviously lack of study from the pro-nuke camp. Couple of things to add into the debate, particularly as I've mentioned them before but (as usual) some elements of this forum simply can't read or think, or won't!
Shasta, NZ is on a fairly volitile faultine. Your suggestion of placing a nuclear power plant right beside one of the most active parts (central N.I. plateau) is most amusing. Choose another area. Perhaps where you live ... ;)
Skol, the fact the person from greenpeace didn't respond to your email doesn't supprise me. This doesn't make him/her a moron. It might however indicate that it is you that is the moron if you think it'll ever be cost effective to extract and refine the U-235 under your house. (That post is just so funny. I couldn't believe it. I had to read it about 3 times just in case you were hinting at way that U-235 could be extracted from such low densities. But no, just you making a fool of yourself again. Brilliantly funny tho!)
High densitities of U235 exist in only a few countries. But like extracting oil from low-yeild sources (like oil-sands) they may become economic to extract in other places at some stage. But that's unlikely as by that time renewable sources will be far more economic. Note that the same applies to oil as well. I.e. price of oil goes up and suddenly wind/tide/wav power becomes economically viable.
Wind/tide/wave power ... The age old "the wind doesn't blow all the time" argument. Boy, is this one is worn out! The real question is how to store the energy for when we need it. The most obvious, for NZ at least, is to use the energy when the wind/tide/waves are blowing/running/big and pump water back uphill! This is already done in other parts of the world and works very well indeed ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped_storage_hydroelectricity ... for gods sake read this link and follow the links to working examples! (You'll note btw that NZ is conspicuously absent from the list of coutries already using this type of energy storage.) I note that one particular dam planned in the S.I. is ideally placed to use this technology.
Cooks Strait - See this http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4751082a6008.html ... loved this : "Cook Strait had a "pessimistic capacity" of 7000 turbines, but that many would provide much more power than needed, he said." ... Thats 7,000 MWhs of completely predictable electricity. Add that generation capacity together with pumping water back uphill to store it, and we're away laughing. However, the environmental impacts need some consideration. The underwater "noise" might affect marine life, particlarly larger ones like whales, dophins and sharks. Any of course, anything that slows down the tides might slow down the moon leading to longer months with the evenitable collapse of the lunar orbit and the moon crashing into the Earth ... ;)
At present NZ has very cheap electricity when compared to most other developed nation. I note that our energy supply and generation companies are doing their very best to rectify this anomoly by hiking prices as fast as they can.
The cost of nuclear? wiser posters have already commented that nuclear doesn't come cheap. Further, many govts are actively disguising the true cost of nuclear power. Why would they do that? ... Which leads conveniently onto another observation ...
The countries that 'support' nuclear technologies also have nuclear weaponry or are capable of producing it. Note that Japan is an 'supposedly' an exception but trace the history and you'll find the US was involved. Yes, there are some very small countries that have nuclear power stations but when one delves into who actually controls/operates those plants you're back to the usual suspects.
Another issue. If NZ has nuclear power, why shouldn't anyone? I.e. Iran. Given some of the fascist posts I've seen on this forum I'd be highly suspect of NZ's maturity if we had nuclear power. Some moron of the Muldoon type could appear at any time and we'll join the arms race.
Anyways. Ignore the last observations as they are subjective and are likely to inflame the rabid right. Please address the replies to:
1) Storing energy from transient wind/tide/wave energy
2) Tidal power, particularly the trial in Cooks Strait
3) The true cost of nuclear power.
Oh so having a reactor anywhere near a faultline is an issue is it?
Boy do you need an education in Nuclear Energy then...
Japan has 55 reactors & has many large earthquakes each year...:rolleyes:
Can't ever recall any "issues" with the Japanese over nuclear energy?
http://www.hp1039.jishin.go.jp/eqchreng/eqchrfrm.htm
Funnily enough the US also has earthquakes & seismic activity too :rolleyes:
http://volcano.wr.usgs.gov/activity/status.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#United_States_of_America
I await your response ;)
minimoke
03-02-2009, 06:05 PM
Nuclear is all a bit moot when auckland can't even get normal power to its residents.
Year of the Tiger
03-02-2009, 06:22 PM
Nuclear is all a bit moot when auckland can't even get normal power to its residents.
Yes they can,
oops, no they can't,
well, we nearly have,
ah, not quite, just a bit longer,
well some of you have and we'll sort the rest of you out later....:o
YOTT
shasta
03-02-2009, 07:21 PM
Nuclear is all a bit moot when auckland can't even get normal power to its residents.
Perhaps when reality visits some people, NZ DOES have an energy crisis looming...
Meridian Energy has around $3b worth of projects in the pipeline to increase power capacity, that are required to be up & running ASAP...
A few more power cuts to Auckland & then & only then some will wake up!
So far we have had alot of left wing rubbish, & little substance as to why Nuclear energy couldn't be effective in NZ.
There are smaller countries both geographically & population wise than NZ who have it, plus other countries have seismic activity just like we do.
I just hope Belg doesn't mind a windfarm in his own backyard...:confused:
The hypocrites that want wind farms etc never want it around them, for some reason :confused:
Perhaps when reality visits some people, NZ DOES have an energy crisis looming...
Meridian Energy has around $3b worth of projects in the pipeline to increase power capacity, that are required to be up & running ASAP...
A few more power cuts to Auckland & then & only then some will wake up!
So far we have had alot of left wing rubbish, & little substance as to why Nuclear energy couldn't be effective in NZ.
There are smaller countries both geographically & population wise than NZ who have it, plus other countries have seismic activity just like we do.
I just hope Belg doesn't mind a windfarm in his own backyard...:confused:
The hypocrites that want wind farms etc never want it around them, for some reason :confused:
Left wing. Me?
Anyway my objection is based on cost and the fact that the technology is still crap. The Finnish and French Nuclear power stations were pitched at under cost with French Govt subsidies to get their Nuclear industry going again. Hence the price blowouts etc. As I have shown the cost of the Finnish plant which is about the size NZ would need is $10bill and that was 2 years ago. Seriously. Today they would be asking for $12-15bill with the normal cost overruns adding another couple on top of that.
3 cheaper alternatives
Project neptune in the cook Strait
Offshore windfarms (getting cheaper by the day as technology improves unlike N power)
Geothermal energy. Still heaps of untapped potential
Also Transpower just announced that the lines upgades can be put off a few years as the power demand is expected to fall thanks to the recession.
shasta
03-02-2009, 07:38 PM
Left wing. Me?
Anyway my objection is based on cost and the fact that the technology is still crap. The Finnish and French Nuclear power stations were pitched at under cost with French Govt subsidies to get their Nuclear industry going again. Hence the price blowouts etc. As I have shown the cost of the Finnish plant which is about the size NZ would need is $10bill and that was 2 years ago. Seriously. Today they would be asking for $12-15bill with the normal cost overruns adding another couple on top of that.
3 cheaper alternatives
Project neptune in the cook Strait
Offshore windfarms (getting cheaper by the day as technology improves unlike N power)
Geothermal energy. Still heaps of untapped potential
Also Transpower just announced that the lines upgades can be put off a few years as the power demand is expected to fall thanks to the recession.
I doubt power demand is reducing, given the population is increasing, although i suppose Auckland didnt need as much today :D
Labour wanted to stop any further geothermal energy, so all the left greenies on here won't like that...
I'd like to see the real costs v benefit analysis done on project neptune, i'm watching the aussie company CNM:ASX to see if tidal wave technology is viable & cost effective, so far it's not...
Offshore Wind farms - maybe ok around Wellington, but we have plenty of power already...
What about the folk north of the bombay hills :eek:
Financially dependant
03-02-2009, 07:52 PM
There are smaller countries both geographically & population wise than NZ who have it
I would like to see a link for one?
shasta
03-02-2009, 08:15 PM
I would like to see a link for one?
I've already posted them on this thread :)
From Wikipedia & updated
Financially dependant
03-02-2009, 08:31 PM
I've already posted them on this thread :)
From Wikipedia & updated
If you are talking about Armenia (1), Slovenia(1), Lithuania(1) then they are not Isolated island nations are they????
shasta
03-02-2009, 08:43 PM
If you are talking about Armenia (1), Slovenia(1), Lithuania(1) then they are not Isolated island nations are they????
I never said they were, your point being?
I was asked to prove my point, i did.
I'm also now told NZ's seismic activity is a problem, however Japan has 55 reactors & has more seismic activity than we do, so ... :rolleyes:
Oh, & Japan isn't land locked either ;)
Financially dependant
03-02-2009, 10:44 PM
I never said they were, your point being?
I was asked to prove my point, i did.
I'm also now told NZ's seismic activity is a problem, however Japan has 55 reactors & has more seismic activity than we do, so ... :rolleyes:
Oh, & Japan isn't land locked either ;)
My point being isolated nations with populations of around 4 million do not have nuclear power stations! I thought you were going to enlighten me.
Are you sure you are an accountant, sound more like a politician:)!
More power outages in Auckland today as the creaking infrastructure gives up the ghost. 38 year old transformers succumb and Mayor John Banks shreds Transpower.
I'm waiting for the big one, when the Cook Strait cables crack under the pressure. The cables are so degraded, insurance cannot be obtained against 'catastrophic failure'
My faith in the NZ power infrastructure is such that I have my own generator.
Because of our nuclear allergy the Skyhawks appear to be almost terminally damaged and unsaleable. They may as well dismantle them or turn them into interesting museum pieces. NZ's defence policy is in tatters, our neighbours referring to us as bludgers and almost every new weapon system acquired in recent years grounded, stalled, sinking or laid up.
Financially dependant
04-02-2009, 01:01 PM
My faith in the NZ power infrastructure is such that I have my own generator.
Wise move Skol.
Yankiwi
04-02-2009, 01:01 PM
My faith in the NZ power infrastructure is such that I have my own generator.
As long as you have faith in the internal wiring in your house that's good idea Skol. A nuclear powered generator I assume? ;)
As long as you have faith in the internal wiring in your house that's good idea Skol. A nuclear powered generator I assume? ;)
No internal wiring just run a cable inside to operate frig, freezers, tv, computer etc.
minimoke
04-02-2009, 02:45 PM
No internal wiring just run a cable inside to operate frig, freezers, tv, computer etc.
If you were in east Auckland you’d be making a tidy sum renting it out. Just another 7,500 homes without power today. Auckland is starting to sound a bit like a third world country. I wonder what Transpower’s lease agreement looks like and if the sale of transmission lines included the sub stations.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article5908490.ece
I will support this nuclear energy. Still a long way away but getting there. I like the laser idea to create the pressure needed. Anyway in 2 weeks it will be shown to be a concept or a waste. Still a step on the knowledge path so worthwhile whatever the result.
Major von Tempsky
16-03-2009, 07:34 AM
I suggest that Nevl et al consider the fact that 80% of France's electric power is, and has been, generated from nuclear energy for decades.
It's reliable, green - no emissions, no noise, lasts for ages.
Unlike windpower which comes to a dead stop every time there's a calm day.
So, what do you do on these days?
Start up the coal fired back-up? Close down your economy and send the work force home?
What gets me - apart from all the NIMBY local Green protests against windpower by people who espouse it at the national level - is that marine turbo power is completely undiscussed and ignored.
New York has at least 2 which have been operating successfully for a while and NZ even has an "experimental" one operating in Kaipara Harbour.
Unlike windpower they operate continously apart from the short period the tide is neither going in nor out.
NZ has heaps of sites for marine turbos - Cook Strait, Foveaux Strait etc.
Why experiment? They work overseas and the same laws of physics operate in NZ as overseas. Why not just get into them? All the effort that has been going into windpower should have been going into marine turbo power. No hypocritical NIMBY protests to worry about - they're not even visible.
The problem is MVT that if France is doing it then its is probably wrong!!
But I totally agree with your second point. However not all is lost on that front
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/31606
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/electricity/news/article.cfm?c_id=187&objectid=10504122
http://www.mercury.co.nz/News/news_story.aspx?id=505
But haven't heard much since. However with other trials overseas I think the technology will be adopted here very quickly once proved.
Major von Tempsky
18-03-2009, 08:13 PM
Well if there isn't any later news then its probably canned due to The Recession.
They're worried about the effect on whales and fish?
You mean whales and fish behave differently in the southern hemisphere from the northern hemisphere where marine turbines have been operating successfully for some time without inducing mass psychosis in whales or fish? Maybe the whales stranded in Tasmania because they were so terrified of the underwater turbines in New York.
The only reason for experimentation should be to find the best locations.
Strikes me there's a corrupt little gravy train operating in NZ where "scientists" and "entrepreneurs" get public grants to demonstrate that things already tried successfully in the EU and USA also work here.
Surprise! They do. But wasn't the grant lovely while it lasted. Now we can apply for another one to demonstrate that it works in Canterbury as well as Auckland.
I suggest that Nevl et al consider the fact that 80% of France's electric power is, and has been, generated from nuclear energy for decades.
It's reliable, green - no emissions, no noise, lasts for ages.
Unlike windpower which comes to a dead stop every time there's a calm day.
So, what do you do on these days?
Start up the coal fired back-up? Close down your economy and send the work force home?
What gets me - apart from all the NIMBY local Green protests against windpower by people who espouse it at the national level - is that marine turbo power is completely undiscussed and ignored.
New York has at least 2 which have been operating successfully for a while and NZ even has an "experimental" one operating in Kaipara Harbour.
Unlike windpower they operate continously apart from the short period the tide is neither going in nor out.
NZ has heaps of sites for marine turbos - Cook Strait, Foveaux Strait etc.
Why experiment? They work overseas and the same laws of physics operate in NZ as overseas. Why not just get into them? All the effort that has been going into windpower should have been going into marine turbo power. No hypocritical NIMBY protests to worry about - they're not even visible.
As a kaipara fish I can ensure you that we would certainly protest against any experimental one being built here, Dont you know that this is the premier breeding ground for snapper with 98% west coast snapper coming from the kaipara ? \No experimental one has been built .
Still more dramas in Finland. Still think Nuclear is a cheap option?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8138869.stm
duncan macgregor
09-07-2009, 08:39 PM
As a kaipara fish I can ensure you that we would certainly protest against any experimental one being built here, Dont you know that this is the premier breeding ground for snapper with 98% west coast snapper coming from the kaipara ? \No experimental one has been built . Its the height of stupidity to think that turbines will work in the Kaipara or harm the fish. They wont harm the fish for the simple reason they wont work for long in the first place. The great number of submerged trees, and logs plus the tons of oxygen weed that fly through there is only one reason. The other most important reason is when you stick a blocking factor in an ever changing channel it silts over and moves elsewhere.
Having fished the area for over thirty years some of the old salts including myself laugh at the stupidity of the people trying to promote this idea to the gullible public. macdunk
shasta
09-07-2009, 08:50 PM
Still more dramas in Finland. Still think Nuclear is a cheap option?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8138869.stm
China is going ahead to build more Nuclear reactors than they already have...
Watch the Chinese try to buy up & corner the U308 market.
China already has 90%+ of the world's rare earth elements, where U308 is usually a by-product of.
With Nuclear energy (like Geothermal), it's clean, green & reliable unlike Solar & Wind which are useless & inefficient unless conditions are just right.
The same anti nuclear protesters are probably the same idiots that put the supposedly eco-friendly light bulbs in.
Don't worry about the high & harmful levels of mercury in them! :eek:
Dr_Who
09-07-2009, 08:59 PM
Whats a good Uranium stock that is currently producing?
shasta
09-07-2009, 09:27 PM
Whats a good Uranium stock that is currently producing?
Primary Uranium Producers - PDN, ERA
Producers of other metals + U308 - AGG (Gold & U308), EQN (Copper & U308)
Near term producers & those worthy of note; AGS, BMN, EXT, MRU, WCU (small scale), + PEN & DYL
STRAT
09-07-2009, 10:22 PM
Its the height of stupidity to think that turbines will work in the Kaipara or harm the fish. They wont harm the fish for the simple reason they wont work for long in the first place. The great number of submerged trees, and logs plus the tons of oxygen weed that fly through there is only one reason. The other most important reason is when you stick a blocking factor in an ever changing channel it silts over and moves elsewhere.
Having fished the area for over thirty years some of the old salts including myself laugh at the stupidity of the people trying to promote this idea to the gullible public. macdunkWouldnt they have to be no more than 30cm high to stay submerged at low tide in the Kaipara. :D
Snapper you say Duncan? I thought it would be all flounder up there :D
Major von Tempsky
09-07-2009, 10:35 PM
Strange - the experimental marine turbine in the Kaipara Harbour is still working months later....and the production marine turbines in the New York river are still working years later....
duncan macgregor
10-07-2009, 06:44 AM
Wouldnt they have to be no more than 30cm high to stay submerged at low tide in the Kaipara. :D
Snapper you say Duncan? I thought it would be all flounder up there :D STRAT, Over 90pc of all snapper on the west coast of the north island are bred in the kaipara sea grass areas.
MVT the turbine is only a small trial version that sits in a high risk area of huge under water debris battering into it at a speed as fast as most rivers both ways. The shifting channels and silting over with channels on continual change is why i think it wont work in the long term. Dont mention Hector dolphins or that will be the finish of that idea not that they come in the harbour in any case. All the locals think it wont work even although they would be in favour of the project going ahead creating employment. Macdunk
Major von Tempsky
10-07-2009, 08:44 AM
And the months stretched into years....and the overseas successes continued and multiplied....
STRAT
10-07-2009, 10:00 AM
STRAT, Over 90pc of all snapper on the west coast of the north island are bred in the kaipara sea grass areas.
. MacdunkI was just trying to get a rise out of ya Duncan.
duncan macgregor
10-07-2009, 12:24 PM
I was just trying to get a rise out of ya Duncan. I am not a hook line sinker snapper like some of them here STRAT. Stronger bait required mate. Macdunk
A quote from todays Evening Standard in London.
'Statistical evidence from Denmark, the most developed wind-farm economy in the world, shows the country's wind farms rarely produce enough electricity to meet even the daily troughs of demand. Worse, it shows there are times that when so little wind power is being produced, even an economy like Denmark will seemingly forever be forever be reliant on what is called base-load generating stations-nuclear or fossil fuel plants which can produce power all the time. The only alternative to that is finding a way of storing windpower.'
Major von Tempsky
25-07-2009, 09:26 AM
I see that Germany is replacing its closed down nuclear stations with 27 coal fired stations.
Heh heh heh - wouldn't you rather have nuclear? Zero emissions, can't get greener than nuclear.
I see that Germany is replacing its closed down nuclear stations with 27 coal fired stations.
Heh heh heh - wouldn't you rather have nuclear? Zero emissions, can't get greener than nuclear.
Nor more expensive
neopoleII
25-07-2009, 07:09 PM
my cousin lives next to a nuclear power station in germany, when i was there 20 years ago, i was gobsmacked and scared when i saw it, and the perminant steam cloud over the house........
but after a while....... you get used to it.
i have a beautifull memory of a glowing orange sun setting in the evening between 2 steam clouds and cooling towers in the distance while walking the open fields in the rural dorf i was living in.
NZ would be richer in many ways if we adopted nuclear power......................
ratkin
25-07-2009, 07:29 PM
Until the next big accident / disaster /terrorist attack
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,655409,00.html
Another article saying that Nuclear power is too expensive and that the Finnish experience suggests that new nuclear plans are uneconomic
Yankiwi
17-10-2009, 12:26 PM
From time to time people have asked me - "What is your favorite thing about New Zealand"
My general reply is something like - "What I like most about NZ is that it is nuclear free. It's a big bad changing world out there and sometime in the future someone just might point their nuclear weapons at us. If find a great deal of pease knowing that we're nuclear free, so those weapons just wont work here." :eek: :D :D
Those same people usually say I have a dry & sick sense of humour. :rolleyes:
http://www.economist.com/daily/columns/greenview/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15004034&fsrc=nwl
Peak Uranium by 2013!! Well the figures are up for debate but another nail in the nuclear is better coffin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8386460.stm
Grid parity in Italy next year. Italy has a similar climate to NZ. But we have much cheaper electrity than Italy so its a few years away for us. But given the cost savings in infrastructure and the saving in transferring electricity up to 5% is lost. Its not too far away. And the fact they last 40 years means that they could easily be cost effective.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3125556/Todd-to-join-race-for-tidal-power
Todd getting into Tidal power. Personally this is my favorite option for NZ electricty. Its predictable, Reliable and a perfect base load generator when we have stations on both coasts. No need to compete with Iran to purchase uranaium.
craic
04-12-2009, 10:17 AM
While uranium is the fuel of choice, it is not the only alternative. Theoretically, the energy in cabbage or sugar or dogs droppings is the same as uranium - it only needs some work to find out how to release it. If you think its that difficult, just think on the fact that a large part of the alcohol you drink, whiskey, rum, vodka, gin and brandy etc. is now made from fermented whey a by-product of our finest farting cows.
Major von Tempsky
04-12-2009, 11:58 AM
Marine turbines are the electricity generator of the future. No visual pollution or other pollution, steady reliable base load producers. They make wind power look silly.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3141046/Power-turbines-planned-for-Tory-Channel-seabed
Looks like Marine Turbines are getting some traction. Kaipara and now Tory Channel. Was impressed with the 15hrs per day stat. Thats pretty good.
A new type of reactor is available, about the same size as a railcar.
WSJ article on this new invention by Babcock & Wilcox. Can generate 125 to 140 MW and can be manufactured and installed quickly.Safer with a smaller nuclear reaction.
This is the future and eventually NZ will have to make an ignominious backdown from its primeval Luddite policies.
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