Iraq - A Bright New Dawn Beckons (No Saddam)

[mikescott]

Without Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi people can have a wealthy country based upon democracy and freedom. The doom and gloom losers like Belgarion, Aspex and Marcer would like to believe otherwise, but Iraq will rise again.

Here's something to put Iraq today in perspective :

The other side of a defiant country choked by war
By Nicolas Rothwell, Middle East Correspondent in Baghdad
June 26, 2004

THE bombs and mortar shells explode in the middle distance with dull regularity, the Black Hawk and Apache helicopters cut fiercely through the sky - but there is another Baghdad, alongside the razor-wire and the fortified US army encampments.

This is the real city, where foreigners don't venture: the capital of a free, anarchic country, crowded, traffic-choked, in love with trade and shops and life.

As the new order in Iraq faces its darkest challenge, with the handover of power looming next week, and a mounting wave of attacks and carnage in recent days, Baghdad is showing its true face: the face of an Iraq too busy for war, or factional feuding, the face of ordinary men and women too intent on building, arguing and getting by to stop for anything as trite as a mere security scare or explosions in the "green zone" held by coalition forces at the city's heart.

The US army is preparing for the worst: for "lock-down" and a virtual state of siege in the run-up to June 30. These are grim days for the Coalition Provisional Authority as it brings its period of control to a bitter close, and bunkers down for the handover.

Even the private security firms who protect the Western contingent of contractors here are settling in behind their safety cordons, after a series of devastating attacks on their convoy teams. A vast white blimp hovers above the city, half-lost in the smog layers, collecting intelligence images in real time for nervous military commanders.

But on the Baghdad streets as the big day nears, the language and the mood is different: anger, mingled with a strange hope. Almost everyone you meet and talk to rejoices in the new regime, and the coming of an independent Iraq, even as they fear the upheaval of the transition phase. In the upmarket district of Karada, close to the city's heart,

Ahmad, a businessman running a music shop, knows where he stands. "We have our own government now - we can work, and at last after the years of Saddam Hussein, we can rest our minds," he says.

Close by, street sellers hawk newspapers bearing not just the bleak tidings of recent days, but also the pledges of the political parties, rallying round interim prime minister Iyad Allawi in his pledges of security.

A sharp outrage at the damage being done to Iraq by the bombing campaign of the past few weeks, and its climax on Thursday when more than 100 people were killed, is matched by a growing sense of paranoia: no one, at least among the ordinary people, has any clear idea who the bombers are, or what, beyond destruction, they want.

At every corner, amid the rubble and the heaps of uncollected rubbish, and the twisted wreckage of destroyed buildings, nervous Iraqi police control the traffic and check the faces in each passing car.

They are unbelievably young; they clutch their guns and sweat in their cornflower-blue uniform shirts - as well they might, for they are the chief targets of the regime's shadowy opponents, and a thousand of them have been killed in recent months.

Concrete barriers and piles of masonry dot the streets, machinegun nests surround every ministry, but even amid this chaos the sweet, urgent pulse of Baghdad life beats on.

The pavements are blocked, jammed full of cardboard packages, towering above the passers-by: refrigerators and generators, air-conditioning units, colour TVs, all trucked across the desert from neighbouring Jordan's free trade zone, and all being eagerly snapped up. Stalls manned by young children sell soft drinks, and cigarette cartons of bizarre export brands: Pine, Aspen, Vi

[belgarion]

Minder, There is already a thread on this topic. Suggest you post there.

[Capitalist]

Nice post Minder.

This is what the sensationalist media find too boring to report. And for the peanut gallery; no, it's not from Fox news, but The Washington Post...

*68 percent of Iraqis have confidence in their new leaders

*73 percent of Iraqis polled approved of Allawi to lead the new government,

*84 percent approved of President Ghazi Yawar and almost two-thirds backed the new Cabinet.

*Four out of every five Iraqis expected that the new government will “make things better” for Iraq after the handover, with 10 percent expecting the situation to remain the same and 7 percent anticipating a decline.

*two-thirds of Iraqis believed the first democratic elections for a new national assembly — tentatively set for December or January — will be free and fair, the survey shows.

*Seventy percent of Iraqis polled supported the new army, and 82 percent supported the police

[duncan macgregor]

Sorry to be a doomsdayer but the yanks wont win this. I have been to the middle east they hate our guts keep kidding your self get real.
If some arab bastard came over here and told me my politics and religeous beliefs were crap I might turn myself Into a walking bomb for the hell of It. OIL MORE OIL thats what Is behind It. If I am wrong then what about a few of the african countries we should tell them what to do as well. Richard the lion heart, and all that. kick the palestinians out who do they think they are, we know whats best for you etc etc. Neither wonder they hate our guts, what are we doing there anyway?.
Only one reason OIL steal It all, and leave them with nothing.
I expect a few few shocks are about to come our way soon, so dont get to smug. SCOTLAND FOR EVER. macdunk

[willy_wonker]

I agree with you Duncan.

What a total mess all in the name of greed and power. How much smoke and mirrors before we wake up to the real truth behind all the BS spin to cover the real agenda for war in Iraq.

What goes around will eventually come around. A sad truth that we have not learnt from our past mistakes.

NZers are now paying for our past wrong doings to the Maori people. Somehow I dont think America, Britain and Aust will be paying anything back to the Iraqi people in the future.

[Longtack]

Regarding Cap's post - if that's what the significant majority of Iraqis believe then they will do OK. I'm pleased to hear it too as I was getting a bit despondent about not seeing many Iraqis expressing any optimism. Pray that no despot steps up soon.
And good old Washington Post eh - still outstanding as an island in a sea of biased US news & comment reporting by largely Christian neo-cons bereft of Christian ethics but supporting big biz and their tool the US military. US "defence of the homeland" bool****e!!

[stolwyk]

With "handover" scheduled for 30 June..."..

I am getting the feeling that Al Qaeda and others used those bloody events from a couple of days in Iraq as a staging event- a curtain raiser for a real showdown on June 30/July 1st?

Let's see what happens.

Gerry

[whatsup]

Willy W----, Who said that "we've made mistakes with the Maoris" I personally think that they (and fortunately They also think this)that they are better off today than would of been if left to themselves ,can you imagine what would have been their situation if NZ had of been discovered/colonised by the Portugese or some Arab nation(the Arabs afterall were the people who captured Black Africans and sold them to traders who transported them to the New World(good ole USA)!!!Like they say "You dont know just how lucky you are mate".

[Longtack]

Minder - Two things irritate me about this site:
1. The class of people who mindlessly parrot others (other website or "news" commentators)
2. Contributors who demonstrate a grasp of communication indicative of either a poor foreign education or a Year 5 NZ education.
Make that three things - YOU (as you encapsulate both.)

Just because Belg' and GB have stepped aside (mostly) you need not perpetuate these dull extremist and Estados Unidos propagandist diatribes.

[mikescott]

The handover is done.

Now let the forces of good gather against the forces of evil. And anyone who try and argue that the terrorists (killing civilians to create chaos and so hope to gain power to suppress the Iraqi people as Saddam did) are not evil - well, they have just embraced evil.

You burn the grass and the snakes, scorpions and poisonous spiders hiding amongst the grass and rocks ready to strike will reveal themselves - likewise the terrorists.

But you defeat them and good always prevail.

US hands over sovereignty in Iraq

The Iraqi government still needs US-led forces to fight insurgents
The US has formally handed over power in Iraq, two days ahead of schedule.
At a low-key ceremony in Baghdad, US administrator Paul Bremer gave legal documents to an Iraqi judge at 1026 local time (0626 GMT).

Iraq's interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, who also took part in the ceremony in the heavily-guarded Green Zone, said it was "a historic day".

But the BBC's Dan Damon in Baghdad says the handover will mean little to ordinary Iraqis.

Our correspondent says it is not clear how real the transfer of power will seem to the many Iraqis whose backing is needed to defeat insurgents.

During the ceremony, Mr Bremer, describing himself as "ex-administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority", said the US-led coalition had come to liberate Iraq - as anyone who saw the mass graves left by Saddam Hussein could attest.

We are very pleased here, we are confident and we are ready to take up our responsibility

Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari


Security crucial to success

"I leave Iraq confident in the future and confident in the ability of the government to meet the challenges of the future," he said.

Coalition officials said Mr Bremer would leave Iraq later on Monday.

Mr Allawi said: "This is a historic day, a happy day, a day that all Iraqis have been looking forward to."

He said the Iraqi government was committed to holding elections in January 2005, despite earlier suggestions that the poll might be delayed if security did not improve.

'Challenge'

The surprise move to bring forward the handover of sovereignty was first disclosed by Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, speaking after talks with UK Prime Minister Tony Blair at a Nato summit in Istanbul.

Mr Zebari told journalists that the transfer of power was taking place early and welcomed the commitment of Nato countries to help train the Iraqi forces struggling to put down insurgency.

"We are very pleased here, we are confident and we are ready to take up our responsibility - even before 30 June," he said.

"I believe today we will challenge those elements in Iraq - the terrorists, the criminals, the Saddamists, the anti-democratic forces - by bringing the date of the handover of sovereignty even before 30 June, as a sign that we are ready for the job."

The BBC's political editor Andrew Marr in Istanbul says the early transfer of power was originally due to be announced in Baghdad - and that Mr Zebari visibly startled Mr Blair by publicly revealing the plan.

Another BBC correspondent in Istanbul, Jonny Dymond, says it appears that the date was brought forward to pre-empt further attacks by militants to coincide with the handover.

He says recent violence in Iraq in the run-up to the transfer of power has forced the hand of the authorities.

Security fears

The Iraqi foreign minister's disclosure came as Nato leaders were arriving for the summit in Istanbul, where they are expected to endorse a plan to help train Iraqi security forces.

Nato's Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer says the alliance must take action to ensure security is maintained in Iraq after the handover of power.

"There is a broad agreement that a stable Iraq is in the interest of all allies," he said.

Nato ambassadors, who gathered in Istanbul for talks before the arrival of the heads of government, hammered out a draft agreement to provide training and

[belgarion]

Rant all you like minder .... people with IQs above yours, which is probably most people, see the whole thing for what it was and is ....

... The Italians have their say: Berlusconi suffers major setback in Italian election (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040627/1/3lbvc.html) ... Justice is coming. :)

[belgarion]

Even more signs of justice ... New inquiry re-opens British weapons claim controversy (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3575183&thesection=news&thesubsection=world) :D:D:D

Seems that minder is evil as far as canadian teens are concerned ... The 'evil empire' is next door, youth say (http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/soundoff/story.html?id=9848cd3a-c74a-41ee-8595-ddaa9c40ba0e) ... Yip, Canadians are definitely smarter than than theose evil Yanks. :)

[Major von Tempsky]

Well, you have to say that any logical underpinning of Belg's whingeing has now disappeared.
Power has been transferred to an Iraqi Council which is busy organising elections. The EU has agreed with the US on policy in Iraq.
The US troops will go, as they did from Grenada, when they are no longer needed to help maintain order.

Or will Belg continue to whinge when Iraq is an independent democracy with no US troops there?
I expect at that point he will have found some other topic to whinge about to indulge his psychotic anti-Americanism, and, more to the point, he will have lost the last shreds of his very tattered credibility.

[mikescott]

quote:Originally posted by Longtack

Minder - Two things irritate me about this site:
1. The class of people who mindlessly parrot others (other website or "news" commentators)
2. Contributors who demonstrate a grasp of communication indicative of either a poor foreign education or a Year 5 NZ education.
Make that three things - YOU (as you encapsulate both.)

Just because Belg' and GB have stepped aside (mostly) you need not perpetuate these dull extremist and Estados Unidos propagandist diatribes.


I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Hurt .............NOT!:D:D:D

[Capitalist]

Food is pouring in, aid is pouring in...this is a great start and with 25 million people joining the free world, a day for people of all political parties to celebrate (unless you're an asshat that is).

Good luck little democracy.

Leftist spin:

No handover on the 30th! BUSH LIED!

[marcer]

quote:Originally posted by Capitalist

Food is pouring in, aid is pouring in...this is a great start and with 25 million people joining the free world, a day for people of all political parties to celebrate (unless you're an asshat that is).

[



A wee article from the AP included the following interesting info...
"Billions of dollars of Iraqi money cannot be accounted for by the Coalition Provisional Authority"...the majority of Iraq's reconstruction projects had been awarded to US companies, which charged up to 10 times more than their Iraqi equivalents....there were glaring gaps in the spending of $US 20 billion generated by Iraq's oil and other sources"

I agree, great Saddam's gone, but I'm still betting the next govt there is going to be just as non democratic.

BTW no one has explained on this site, why the US is building their biggest foreign embassy, if they intend to leave ASA(safely)P??
I'm interested in hearing the theories.

Also Cap, still waiting patiently for a post of mine that levels racist remarks at the general American population. Your continued silence doesn't mean that perhaps you know you are wrong on this particular point regarding me does it?
C'mon, I thought you may be big enough to admit a mistake ocassionally.

Regards all,
Marcer

[thereslifeafter87]

Marcer,
Like you I'm highly sceptical about the handover of 'sovereignty'.
The UN declaration has placed a lot of limits on the powers of the Iraqi interim administration, I wonder if these will be removed after the free elections (I didn't put 'free elections' in inverted commas because i live in hope).

I do think there are two sides to the conflict now taking place. Obviously the US has abused its position in trying to promote US business interests, and has paid a price for that - however, I do agree with the US position that much of the fighting is caused by foreign 'terrorists'. There will be a number of 'freedom fighting' Iraqi's among them, but fanatics from other countries will have shown up to take their opportunity to kill Americans.

I think the best thing for everyone will be a freely elected democratic, constitutional Iraqi government that will provide protection for the minority ethnic groups in Iraq, and hopefully will be strong enough to stave off US influence to some extent (maybe an oil deal with China would work?). As long as US dominance of Iraq is obvious there will be fighting and killing, and oil prices will stay high. If US troops pull out it could either be another Vietnam/Somalia, or maybe it will work.

I just hope it doesn't keep on the way it is at the moment with killing everywhere. IMO nothing will change until US troops leave, and Iraqis adopt the consumerist societal model of the West. Then they'll be too busy driving around in humvees, going to the mall, and watching ESPN and HBO to bother thinking about who's pulling the strings in their government.

[Capitalist]

87, that is a better post than this racist BS you posted, you rednecked Billy-Bob--you and Marcer both. And you wonder why practically no one reads you. Replace "Americans" with "blacks" and see what reaction you would get. Disgusting, and you should be ashamed.


quote:Originally posted by thereslifeafter87

I don;t know about you guys, but I'd much rather have Asians here than yanks. Yanks are lound, obnoxious, insulated and full of themselves (there are exceptions obviously - but they are usually the hippy kind).

Honestly, if you have ever been a tourist, when you hear an american voice it makes you cringe.

My opinion...



The REAL voices of Iraqis are all over the internet-- words that the journalists didn't want to get out of the bar to hear.Just two...

Our hope and our goal is to see the day when we can elect our representatives freely and more important is to be aware that the process is moving as we wish and there will be no room for those who dream of bringing back the past.
I can see only one bright road and I believe that going to the end is worth the sacrifice and we’ll never be discouraged by the dark pictures shown by the evil propaganda machines.
To me, we didn’t get rid of a military occupation today as I never considered the coalition’s presence as an occupation even if the whole world told me that I’m wrong.
Today we were freed for ever from the fear that a man and his family might once again control Iraq.

-- Mohammed iraqthemodel.blogspot.com



Thank you united state of America for your great Job you done here .
Thank you coalitions forces for you brave work and supporting good.
Thank you all Brave mans ,who lost there life here ,your bloods will be the river of hope for us.
Thank you all good friends out there ,thank you for being with us all the way , minute by minute ,day by day ,living our sadness and happiness ,standing beside us ,encouraging us Supporting us ,worry about us ,we always felt that you are there beside us ,with us .
Thank you all brave Iraqis who stand out there to fight for better future and freedom.
I will go now to celebrate with all people for this happy moments ,it has been long time since we celebrate .

-- Sarmad roadofanation.com


Much remains to be done to secure the nation, but I'm confident that, working together as partners,the US and Iraq will be able to finish the job and run the last few threats to peace and justice into the ground where they belong. Oh, and Lefties? You were questioning why we went there? I think you have your answer. Read the posts.

Evil never wins. Just remember that.

[Capitalist]

Look Marcer, I haven't replied to you because all you have ever done is repeat socialist cant. You constantly regurgitate the same leftist bull**** every time you read a post that doesn't fit what you have been taught in the Church of the Almighty Left. You have never posted an original thought and I doubt that you ever will. You are just one of those dolls with a pull-string implanted in his back, so that he has only about a dozen sentences that he can speak and they've all been programmed into him ahead of time.

PS The AP's man was not a typical Iraqi--in fact, he's a painter who prospered under Saddam and painted numerous portraits of him.

[zyreon]

I think it is good news that the iraqis have their sovereignty back

nice good news to coincide witht he beginning of one big bull market (check it ya know, NZX50 up 30% YTD)

when will the iraqis have their own stock exchange, that would be good news for them, then they could have their own sharetrader forum and then they could discuss the buffoonery of the leftist terrorists and other such claptrap

[mikescott]

The loser leftists would have everyone believe that when the Americans handed Japan back to the Japanese that the Japanese were still being ruled by the Americans. :D:D

Likewise, Germany. [^]

Only difference with Iraq is that a minority of the Iraqis (ex Saddam supporters and die-hard criminals) and terrorists (haters of anything Western) are hell-bent on preventing the Iraqis from re-asserting their ownership and rule of their country.

And based upon that minority action, the loser leftists would have us believe that the American intentions are not honourable.

Well, let the Iraqis who can see a future and freedom say to the Marcers, Belgarions, Aspex and 87 of the world - 'Kiss Our A R S E S.'

[marcer]

I'll take that to mean you can't actually find any evidence that I have directed racist remarks at Americans Cap.

Nice to see you are following the "etiqutte of intellectual debate" as you posted.

Kind regards to you to,
Marcer

[thereslifeafter87]

quote:Originally posted by Capitalist

87, that is a better post than this racist BS you posted, you rednecked Billy-Bob--you and Marcer both. And you wonder why practically no one reads you.

Evil never wins. Just remember that.



Cap,
Who said no one reads me?
That wasn't racism, it was a truism. Yanks are generally loud and obnoxious. Especially the big fat ones in Hawaiian shirts that go to all the tourist spots.

Cap, you don't honestly believe in good and evil do you? There are no such things. They are childish concepts created by primitive religious beliefs, childhood fairytales where the brave prince always beats the nasty dragon, and by American pop culture ie: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (where krang and shredder always ended up being defeated and heading back to the technodrome), Transformers (Optimus Prime always won the day for the heroic autobots defeating the evil deceptikonz), and basically any other US tv program/movie.

There is no black and white cap. It is all grey. The shade of grey depends on whose eyes are viewing it.

[Major von Tempsky]

There's some very strange logic around.
How do you manage to steal the Iraqi's oil by paying them market prices for it?
How do you steal it when large chunks of it are going to Turkey amongst other countries?
If it had all been for oil because Iraq has the second largest oil reserves then the price of oil would have collapsed by now. Has it?

Compare how well the US has done in Afghanistan compared to how badly the Soviet Union did.
Think about Grenada. Communist elements in the government staged a violent coup. The Governor General appealed for help in restoring order. US troops intervened and deposed the communist coup. Free elections were held, a new democratic government took office, US troops left. End of story.
Here endeth the lesson.

[belgarion]

MVT ... I bow to drug induced fantasy land reasoning. If ignorance was bliss ... Ah well, takes all sorts I guess.

You said ... "Compare how well the US has done in Afghanistan compared to how badly the Soviet Union did." ... Just once perhaps you could back up such an outrageous statement with some facts? Go on. Please. If not, your credibility, such that it is, is destroyed.

[whatsup]

Belg---, What really amazes me is that in all the time that you have been posting your garbage re Iraq on this site is that youve never once posted a negative post about Saddam and his killer thugs , all you can focus on is the short term upheavel that has happened , Iraq WILL get over this slight inconvience that is/was necessary in order to put right the crimes of SADDAM (unless you believe that SADDAM AND HIS THUGS ARE ANGLES and not understood by the world[which you most probably do believe in]) ANSWER the truth if you dare/can Belg---!!!!

[Major von Tempsky]

Lets just say Belg (and by the way I have never taken any drugs in my life, unlike Bill Clinton ;) that in evolutionary terms you are not even as advanced as Keith Locke. - Green Party Foreign Affairs spokesman.
He has publicly stated that he was wrong to back the Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan and that he had made a mistake.
Be a man like Keith Locke Belg and do the same.

Lets put it this way, in Afghanistan now you have a government that has the backing of the vast majority of the people, it was put in place by agreement of the different tribes, and the President Hamid Karzai is a member of the largest tribe, the Pashtans. The only dissidents are the die hard Taliban, Al Qaeda foreigners, and Belg.
Think about it....

[willy_wonker]

*Yawn*..*Yawn*...

A bunch of arm chair critics.

Abit like a bunch of clowns who make comments the ABs game, yeah these clowns have never played a game of rugby in their lifes. *YAWN*

The sad thing is that you guys talk big, but forget that the average person over there that are underneath those 10 ton bombers and the constant bullets over their heads dont give a tosh, but want peace and a good life for their family. Have we forgotten about the suffering?

Which one of you guys have actually been to war or have involvement in war? Which one of you guys have actually been to Afganistan and Iraq during the war?

[Major von Tempsky]

I take it you did Willy? I'm impressed. Tell us your recollections of Baghdad, Basra, Ur, Kabul &.
Actually I have spent some time in the Army including crawling under live machine gun fire &. Not recommended, scary as hell but someone has to do it ;)
The alternative is to meekly give in to the thugs which was the 1930's government prescription.
It didn't work....

[zyreon]

I hope the Iraqis finally get some peace.

I also hope that saddam does not get executed... though I hold his indignant, reprehensible acts in utter contempt; I do not wish to see people sinking to his level.

Will be interesting to see if the Iraqis can master the art of capitalism...

[willy_wonker]

MVT, then lets us not forget those hundreds of thousands if not millions that have died and suffered during the war, while we sit in our comfortable chairs talking tough and talking big. Some of you guys should walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Dont forget that both sides leaders uses all means to brainwash us into fighting their dirty wars. At the end of the day it is us that suffers while the politicians and the billionaires laughing all the way to their bank.

War can leave scares for many generations and takes many years to heal, assuming that it does heal. Many of us still remember ANZAC?

The Americans are no angels, yet Sadam deserves what he gets. The sad thing is that the average Iraqi and Afganistan is suffering for it.

There are no winners in a war !

"I had to choose between two evils and I chose the lesser evil" The President of Pakistan.

[whatsup]

Willy W-----, I like you do constantally think of the families of all those brace Allied solders who have been either killed or wounded in the Iraq theatre Our(yours included along with Belg---) thaughts and best wishes go to them and we wish a speedy recovery to the wounded.

[mikescott]

In any war, fight or battle, make sure you do not have too many Willy Wonkers on your side! War is an inevitable outcome when you have injustice, cruelty, suppression, evil and oppression - because only with war and victory can the ordinary people be liberated.

Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot loves the Willy Wonkers of the world. [^][^][^]

[Seti]

quote:Originally posted by minder


War is an inevitable outcome when you have injustice, cruelty, suppression, evil and oppression - because only with war and victory can the ordinary people be liberated.


Well put minder. I concur 100%.

[whatsup]

Comeon Belg----, (I know that you read every posting{how do I know, You once told me })"is Saddam your hero" (a most misunderstood one at that through your Rose coloured eyes )along with Chairman Mao, Stalin, Mgarby(spelling) Lenin,The very wooden John Kerry , Mark (king hit) Latham ,Stalin (health minister -who IMHO over saw the nonvetting of the bad/cantamated blood )Clark?

[belgarion]

quote:Originally posted by minder


Now let us have Willy Wonker, Marcer, Belgarion, Aspex and other leftist losers tell us what they would do with the humanitariam disasters in just three countries - Sudan, Zimbabwe and Ethopia - where evil leaders have installed themselves in power and are systematically brutalising and oppressing the people so that starvation is now rife.

Women are being herded into camps for the pleasures of the leaders and their thugs. Children are herded into camps to be trained to become thugs. Men either become thugs or victims.

Let's hear your solution. If you have none, please desist from posting any more of your garbage on this site.


Drop all subsidies to western farmers thereby restoring the proper market forces for primary produce. This would correct an inbalance that has kept not only the three countries you mention but many others improverished for years. ... Supprized by this answer mindless? Think about it. :(

[mikescott]

Now let us have Willy Wonker, Marcer, Belgarion, Aspex and other leftist losers tell us what they would do with the humanitariam disasters in just three countries - Sudan, Zimbabwe and Ethopia - where evil leaders have installed themselves in power and are systematically brutalising and oppressing the people so that starvation is now rife.

Women are being herded into camps for the pleasures of the leaders and their thugs. Children are herded into camps to be trained to become thugs. Men either become thugs or victims.

Let's hear your solution. If you have none, please desist from posting any more of your garbage on this site.

[belgarion]

quote:Originally posted by minder


Drop all subsidies? Why? What's the relevancy?


I think Ive made my point. mindless is ... well ... simply mindless.

[mikescott]

Drop all subsidies? Why? What's the relevancy?

Just in case you don't know, Belgarion, Zimbabwe used to be the food-basket of Africa. The agricultrural sector was competitive when Western subsidies were very high in the 1980s and they have been dropping. Look no further than the price of dairy products, meat and fruits out of NZ at present.

Know what went wrong? A thug call Mugabe wanted him and his thugs to have a great life so to hang onto power, systematically played the blacks against the whites, then one tribe against another and now, disaster. Same as Ethopia and Sudan.

So ...give you another chance, what's your answer? :D

[mikescott]

Would lifting subsidies have got rid of Pol Pot from Cambodia? Or the warlords from Ethopia? Or Saddam from Iraq? [}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

I am very proud to be mindless if that's the best you can come out with, Belgarion. What does that make you then? A Moron? No - that's too kind to morons. :D:D:D:D

So Belgarion as per usual ducks the hard simple question and tries to divert attention away from his support of leftists leaning thugs like Saddam, Mugabe, Stalin, Pol Pot and any 'leader' remotely anti-Western. [^][^][^][^][^]

And his mate, Wonker with the little willy, has gone into hiding. :D:D:D:D

[belgarion]

Mindless, I guess the first lines of the article you posted just abouts sums it up ...

Pity the thousands of dead and dying in Africa. They just cannot seem to get our attention.

Why can't they get your attention? Could it be that the western media aren't interested? Why? Could it be that the owners of western media don't want anyone looking too closely? Why? Could it be that many don't have oil and those that do are horrendously corrupt to the benefit of western interests?

Im pleased to note that you said:

I am very proud to be mindless if that's the best you can come out with, Belgarion.

Not only mindless but naive and stupid too.

BTW sniper/matrix/dorkmare ... What happened to your purile attempts to appear asian by pretending to be grammatically challenged? (Many would construe that as a racist slur.)

You remain still ... a mindless, ignorant, petty and pathetic coward.

[mikescott]

Another chance,Belgarion = Marcer, Aspex and Wonker with the little willy, to give your view on what you would do to help the African families now strifed by war, famine and non-attention.

You three stand indicted of being as silent where Africa is concerned as you are noisily sophistic about the Middle East.

A warning - this will now follow every posting by you hypocrites if you do not give a reasonable answer. [}:)]


A land left for dead
July 4, 2004

Pity the thousands of dead and dying in Africa. They just cannot seem to get our attention, writes Gideon Haigh.

In western Sudan, more than a million people have been uprooted. Hundreds of thousands will die of disease and starvation over the next six months, adding to the tens of thousands already murdered by their government and its proxies.

Unfortunately for them, they have not featured in a film by Michael Moore, a stirring address by Tariq Ali, an acerbic tract by John Pilger, or a bloated mea non culpa by Bill Clinton; no one left the Big Brother house demanding sanctions against the al-Bashir regime; Australian cricketers were not planning a tour there; Arab Janjaweed militias are not protesting a McDonald's drive-through policy that discriminates against camels.

In short, Darfur's humanitarian crisis meets none of the criteria that might engage citizens considering themselves socially concerned. Lest this be thought gratuitous liberal bashing, it tweaks few conservative consciences either - if such there be.

This isn't surprising. We are as silent where Africa is concerned as we are noisily sophistic about the Middle East. Last November, the United Nations solicited aid for a list of 21 pressing international crises. There were four more or less familiar names: Chechnya, Gaza, North Korea, Tajikistan. The other 17 were African. Western intervention in Iraq may go awry; Western non-intervention in Africa has.

Darfur is a good aperture through which to study Africa's plight. Observe the images from the refugee camps. These aren't the swollen bellies and empty eyes of the malnourished - though they may soon be so.

They are, instead, among the fifth of Africa's population embroiled in wars, families who until recently had cultivated land around the 300 villages razed by the Janjaweed, abetted by Sudan's military.

They are mostly women. Many have been raped, and branded to show their shame. There are children, probably destined to die, their fathers already dead. Their crime: that they might succour two rebel outfits, the Sudan Liberation Army (SLA) and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM), composed of their ethnic kin.

Note, too, the landscape's parched desolation. Human life has a tenuous grip in the Horn of Africa; it has here been violently loosened. Two harvests have already been missed. Recent months, which would normally have been devoted to sowing and cultivation, have instead been spent in fear and flight. Imminent rains, usually welcome, will massively complicate aid provision, swamping roads and low-lying shelters.

There is already a flood: of refugees, 200,000 of whom have washed across Sudan's porous 600-kilometre border with Chad, not only distancing many from help but reintroducing diseases to areas in which they had been expensively eradicated. US Secretary of State Colin Powell and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan last week remonstrated with Khartoum's rulers, but the disaster has essentially transpired. Only its scale is in doubt. The development agency USAID projects a death toll of 300,000 at best, a million at worst.

This dispute's classically African history is also instructive. Until recently, Darfur had been a muffled noise in the wings of a deafening north-south war raging more or less continuously since independence in 1956: this battle, pitting Khartoum against the Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA), has cost 2 million lives.

Skirmishes in Darfur between nomadic Arab herders and sedentary African farmers competing for water and pasture go b

[belgarion]

quote:Originally posted by minder


Tell us what you = Marcer and Wonker with the little willy are going to do about the African tragedy.

It's that simple. [^]


sniper/dorkmare/mindless/ad nuaseum/ ... I have already said what I would do and I suspect Id get quite a bit of support from others who understand macro issues. You said:

Drop all subsidies? Why? What's the relevancy?

So where does this place us? You don't get it becuase you're an ignoramus and I really can't be bothered explaining the issue to ignorant pricks like you. Where to from here? You rave and the rest of us get to laugh at you making an idiot of yourself again (and again and again and again).

You remain still ... a mindless, ignorant, petty and pathetic coward.

[mikescott]

Very very very proud and honoured to be call anything degoratory by you, Belgarion - because it means nothing coming from a hypocrite.

Tell us what you = Marcer and Wonker with the little willy are going to do about the African tragedy.

It's that simple. [^]

[mikescott]

Throw more insults my way, Belgarion = Marcer = Hypocrite, as I actually find them very very very flattering as insults from hypocrites = Zippo, zilch, nothing.

So what's your answer to Zimbabwe, Sudan and Ethopia?

Women herded into camps for the pleasure of the 'leaders' and their thugs, children left to starve or indoctrinated to kill and oppress at the instructions of the thugs and men killed for daring to stand up to them.

Sounds like Saddam, his sons and their thugs all over again, doesn't it?

And Belgarion's answer is 'remove subsidies.' :D:D:D:DIf it's not so tragic, it would be funny.

It's so pathetic that only a leftist lonny hypocrite demented loser can come out with that answer. [^][^][^][^]

I think it is only proper from hereonin that all of Belgarion=Marcer= hypocrite postings be accompanied by the article on Africa. [}:)]

And Wonker with the little willy has gone into hiding ....:D

[Capitalist]

Happy Independence Day !

Despite all the divisiveness and sheer stupidity that we have been subjected to recently, the US is still the shining city on the hill.

To the Founding Fathers, there was no authority higher than the individual mind, not King George, not God, not society That is the legacy our Founding Fathers left us. It is a legacy we should keep, not because it is a legacy, but because it is right and just. It has made America the freest and most prosperous country in history.~ Michael Berliner

PS I'm pleased you are still around GB-- do let me know how you are getting on sometime.

[willy_wonker]

Minder/Matrix/Nightmware or whatever you are, you have a big mouth for someone who have never seen action apart from a few Rambo movies.

I really cant be bother wasting my breath on a day dreamer.

[mikescott]

Ah, Wonker with a little willy, trying to avoid a simple question again?[}:)]

Don't pontificate on this forum on war without giving a answer on the situation in Africa. So what's your answer?

[mikescott]

How do ordinary Iraqis feel about Iraq today? How do they feel about Saddam being tried? The Handover?

Well, here's a website which allows ordinary Iraqis to voice their aspirations, hopes and fears for the future. Read it and learn.

This is from http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Saddam is in the cage.

For fourty years, the Baáth ruled Iraq with iron fist and committed crimes more than any other group of savages did along the whole history of Iraq.

Today comes the moment of justice that Iraqis and all the people who suffered from Saddam awaited for so long.

We reached a state of frustration during Saddam’s reign to the extent that we doubted for a moment that he was a human being or that one day he would die. Some of us even began to believe that he was Iraq’s destiny and that he, his family and his gang would rule forever.

What shall we sue you for, Saddam?
For what?.....For what!?

For murdering millions of Iraqis? For the torture you used against anyone who dared to oppose you or even against those you doubted their loyalty?

Or for the impoverishing Iraq and her people and wasting Iraq’s fortune?

Or for the fear we lived in for thirty five years; the fear that made us die a thousand times a day, we were getting scared to death when someone knocks on the door or when the phone rings or when we see one of your wretched dogs watching us in the street or at work.

We were getting scared to death when we see a look of anger in the eyes of your Mukhabarat and we’d go back to review everything we said that day; have we criticized someone? Did we not smile when your ‘great name’ was mentioned? Did we say anything that offends your "immortal party" even with a hint?

What shall we sue you for?

For your innovated methods to terrify people?
For chopping off tongues, hands and years?
Or for burning the prisoners alive in front of their friends to make them see, hear and smell pain and death?

What shall we sue you for?

For Halabja? The city of tears, pain and sorrow.
For Al-Anfal? For turning the desert of Iraq into a huge graveyard after crushing the uprising? Or for the endless humiliation that forced us to walk bending our heads with our eyes looking at the ground?

For stupid wars that cost millions of lives?
Or for mass graves that we still don’t know their number?
For millions of our educated youths who left the country to get out of your hell?

Where are your supporters and where are your loyal servants?
Why didn’t we see millions cheering your name or calling for your innocense?

Why didn’t any Iraqi lawyer accept to defend you?
We reject you and we’d like to expel you out of our minds forever.
We’re nothing like you and we’re not going to treat you the way you treated your opponents when you grabbed power.
We’re going to get a fair trial and you’re going to have lawyers to defend you and we will listen to you although you refused to listen to us for thirty five years.
We will not start our new life with mistakes like you did; this is a new Iraq, an Iraq that neither you nor any of your fellow criminals can recognize.

The new Iraq is totally different from what you wanted or planned in your sick mind.

This is the Iraq where everyone listens to anyone even to criminals like you.

The people of Iraq have judged you decades ago, from the first day you came to power.

Your denial to the people’s judgement didn’t do you any good; all the killing and all the torture you did will haunt you.

This is the moment to carry out a sentence that was agreed on decades ago.

I cried when I saw you in that cage because it took a very long time to happen and it has cost us a lot.

We hope that the world will never allow such a crime to happen again.

A whole nation had her history written with tears and blood and pain and humiliation and death.

Please do not let this happen again.

Please....please.

Let’s learn a lesson from the suffering of Iraq.

And let’s make it a trial for the history that caused all t

[whatsup]

Minder well done ,please keep us posted from your Iraq sources ,great reading ,you know that in all the time that Belg---,has beening posting his CR-p on these sites not once ,NOT ONCE ,has he ever posted an ANTI SADDAM posting ,this surely speaks volumes ,in his eyes Saddam has done no wrong never!!!!, Even RED KEN in all his hare brained ideas was'nt as loony as that!!!