Should we cut Israel slack - or off - or what?

[Benlamnz]

quote: "We are fighting for our lives, and sometimes you have to take certain actions."

I guess the same can be said about the arab guy who wrap himself with explosives blowing himself and everything around him somewhere in Jeresalam as well.[}:)]

The Israeli government is a liability to its citizens because its actions are responsible for the current anti semitic movements.

[Awryly]

quote:Merhav said. "We are fighting for our lives, and sometimes you have to take certain actions."

The Post quoted the the official as saying that Israel should not be expected to apologize for every crime an Israeli citizen commits of foreign soil.



Now there's a bob each way.

[zyreon]

a wall is a waste of time

a wall can be climbed over and tunneled under

[Awryly]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the Israelis think that "because we (as Jews) were victims 50 years ago" we can claim to be victims still?

[warthog]

quote:Originally posted by cantab

I totally support the wall that Israel is building. They have a right to defend themselves against terrorists. The UN can go to hell.
Cantab


This is really funny. The wall will never work. It's just another distraction and something to do to while they are not serious about addressing core issues. The only people who will benefit from this wall are the contractors who are making it.

Until the Israelis, who hold almost all the cards in that conflict, come to the table and stop all their sactimonious claptrap, we buy no Israeli goods or services.

Oh and regarding the passport affair, NZ is seen around the world as a country with principles as opposed to most countries whose noses are well and truly covered in the smelly brown stuff.

[Awryly]

Cantab, I checked Dr Who's phone box - which gave me few clues about the identities of Dr Why and Dr When, but nothing definitive. Your ability to keep up is a concern. The Swedish women's volleyball team may be able to assist, or merely provide useful distraction.

[Awryly]

Hey, Cantab you drank MILK? Did the chardonnay run out?

[Awryly]

This is fun. Does anyone else play chess? Given the plonk time platform, we all have to think two moves ahead. Except, of course, those who keep real time - whatever that is.

[Major von Tempsky]

Given that they are estimated to have about 50 atomic bombs you don't have much option but to cut them some slack do you? ;)
Given that they are a large majority within Israel and a democracy you also need to cut them some slack since there's a signal absence of any other democracies in the area. And they are also up to about the 4th generation of people living in Israel so you can't deport them or violate their civil rights.
They're also fairly clever, Einstein and the Israeli IT industry and all that. So there's a fairly good chance that the Wall is going to work.
This leaves the option of dealing with them on a normal basis, regarding them as human beings like the rest of us and forgetting all the bloodthirsty threats to drive them into the sea, behead them, whatever.
A better move would be for rich petrodollar Arab countries to establish industry on the Gaza strip and West Bank.
Northern Ireland has eventually learned to live at peace why can't Israel and the Palestinians. You're never going to turn the clock back - there's a hell of a lot more displaced Moslems and Hindus from 1948 in the Indian sub-continent than there will ever be Palestinians....

[belgarion]

In the last few days ...

NZ has put itself on the map as a country of principled people who can see propaganda, spin, bull.sh!t for what it is and yet still focus on the laws that must govern us all if the global society is to prosper!

It is at times like this that I am so very, very proud to call myself, and all those who call themselves the same, regardless of their ethnic background .... A kiwi!

Go all you Kiwis!

[willy_wonker]

Good on Auntie Helen for standing up to the US before the Iraqi war and now for standing up to Isreal. Do they think we are a bunch of backward farmers down here?

Wonder if it is ok for us to sell Isreali passports to the Palistinians?

[craic]

The political gyrations over the passport are a bit of a laugh. Look at the facts.
1 The two who were caught were expendable mules ( or in Kiwi terms, Prospects)
2 The agent for whom the passport was obtained was long gone.
3 The New Zealander whose identity was used was never likely to obtain a passport or travel 0verseas
4 The New Zealander whose name was used could never be implicated in any activity because he is incapacitated.
5 In the worst case scenario where there was an international incident, it would have been apparent immediately, that NZ was not implicated.
Such incidents are a dime a dozen around the world.

[mikescott]

As they say after Masada - 'Never Again.' Good on Israel doing everything it does need to to protect its interests.

If you live in an island surrounded in a sea of hostility, you do everything to defend yourself.

As for Auntie Helen, where was she recently? Siding up with that snakey lying worm Chirac of France who kissed her hand! He probably went and washed his mouth out after that whilst Helen still has not washed her hand yet. [xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]

[belgarion]

Craccus,

You say that "such incidents are a dime a dozen around the world". Actually, this is true, but what is not true, by any stetch of the imagination, even by your own which frequently deals in american phantasy (sic), is the NZ govt's response to it.

If the overloaded nature of the NZ Herald website is anything to go by ... it's big news world wide.

As an issue Ive been following since the arrests, and from friends I have in diplimatic circles ... It is very much BIG NEWS and for many ... very good news!

Craccus ... play it down if you wish ... we already know where your loyalties lie.

[craic]

Belgarion. I have long since stopped reading your your posts so why do you read mine?
~My Hebrew Picture Dictionary
<a href=" http://www.milon.co.il ">AOL click here</a>

[marcer]

I agree the cemetery desecration was a terrible thing to do. You'll get no argument from me there.

The conspiracy theorist may try to make you believe it was Mossad that did it though, to divert attention away from the real issue of passport theft and fraud.

"Abuse at the Israeli's" indeed. They deserve all they get. I imagine if the Israeli's discovered anyone in their country doing the same thing, they would be getting nastier treatment than a 6 month jail sentence.

I wish the Lange govt had had more guts when the French unleashed their bit of state terror here.

Regards, Marcer

[Awryly]

Craic

Maybe what distinguishes this 'dime' is that NZ is treating it as though it were a dollar. Qustion is: are we overvaluing it and behaving like naive idealists?

[mikescott]

Front page news? Of course, it's front page news because the rest of the world are laughing their heads off! :D:D:D:D

What a sight - Helen Clark looking all mean and stern, threatening diplomatic censures. The Israelis must be quacking in fear!

But wait .....the Israelis couldn't even be bothered with a diplomatic mission here. NZ's armed forces will last 30 seconds against the Israeli army and Helen's hand still smell from Chirac slimy kiss! Rainbow Warrior never happened, see?

The Israelis must really give a damn.

I am so proud to be a Kiwi ....the kiwi has sprouted wings! :D:D:D:D:D:D

[mikescott]

Wait ..there's more front page news!

Jewish cemetary desecrated in Wellington, the city from which Helen Clark launched her abuse at the Israelis. If ever some sickos needed encouragement, Helen gave them plenty - saw how the hand that the Slimy Chirac kissed was furiously waving around for the world to see?

Real good look for NZ! [xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]

PS. Where were you, Belgarion=Marcer, when the cemetary was desecrated? ;)

[Awryly]

quote:The Israelis must be quacking in fear!
Don't you mean honking?

[Capitalist Pig]

My Opinion,

'Tightening up on visas' was of time!

You have a sick little nation with a stuffed society of jewish 'victims' trying to be bully boys in the world arena.

Come on Helen kick them all out including the few thousand tourists a year and stand up to these bully boys.

It might actually have some positive effects like:

The Muslim world might view NZ as at least accomodative to their rights (most Muslims are normal people who get put down too often).

More Islamic tourists may visit NZ.

NZer's would certainly have more pride in their country and not feel we have just been shafted and let them do it to us.

Maybe other little and maybe bigger countries would treat NZ with a little more respect.

Go on Helen what is there to loose?

[Capitalist Pig]

The best from Helen though, must have been the boat people being refused entry into Aus and NZ opening its arms and saying it welcomes them and all the world's problems (several billion people roughly)to its shores, dummies!!

Whilst I heard Helen on radio in Hong Kong saying most people don't know were NZ is (the world is a whole lot smarter (and ruthless) than you love) but NZ opens its arms to them

Little olde NZ is a paradise but out there in the rest of the world it is dog eat dog, so batten down the hatches cause Helen has invited the world's problems and they are coming!

[mikescott]

Ah, Marcer, Lange had the guts but was a practical PM at the end of the day. No point cutting one's norse to spite one's face, right?

But Helen! What a girl! She fronted up to the French last year and told them in no uncertain terms that it was all in the past - 'What Rainbow Warrior?' she said. 'It was all a big mistake and we Kiwis are big people and we know when we are in the wrong.'

And Chirac! What a guy! He kissed her hand in total gratitude for NZ for siding with France aginst the liberation of Iraq.

And Helen is still waving that hand around (not washed since that slimy Chirac kiss) threatening the Israelis.

The fact that the French turned a blind eye and aided in the trnasfer of thousands of Jews to the gas chambers is irrelevant, of course.

Good one, NZ! And we are so proud to display all that smashed Jewish gravestones and desecrated cemetary for the world to see that we are at one with the Palestinian.

Suicide bombing, next, Helen? :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Major von Tempsky]

Helen's performance was a laugh from beginning to end. Ok, so a secret service made a minor mistake and much worse, was caught, it could have been the CIA, the French (again), the Brits, the Aussies, the Turks, the Russians....the list could go on.
But random chance decreed it was Mossad.
In point of fact it was a victimless crime, a pimple on the nose of a dust mite.
Helen's prima donna act was all for the cameras, for domestic consumption.
What does she propose to do? Threaten them with NZ's non existent Air Force? Apologise or we'll send over an Orion via several refuelling stops trailing a banner saying Bang! and drop a cwt of stale milk biscuits with weevils on them?
Hire a Panamanian tanker to take any of NZ's new useless wheeled tanks that happen to be working over to land at Eilat?
It's like a scene from the film The Mouse That Roared. Comic Opera.
I can't stop laughing. The Israelis must be very very afraid and very very sorry. They'll probably remove all their West Bank settlements as a result.

[craic]

Just a couple of points. I arrived in this land as a stowaway. All I had to do was walk down a gangplank, mingle with the crowd and walk through customs as a seaman would without a suitcase. I lost my nerve at the bottom of the gangway and walked the other way to the end of the pier wharf,around to the other side and strolled into Wellington past Customs and Immigration people who were out the back of the shed having a smoke. I had been with the Justice Dept. ten years before I became legal. I was picked up by the police in the first few months but because I was not a ship deserter they were not interested. Sfor J's office wasn't interested either when I told them on interview. Most of the large liners had well equipped print shops and for the price of a few beers, trade certificates, educational qualifications and the like were available to the immigrants. So you not only got a $10 Pom, you got a well qualified one in many cases.
Case reported on talkback last week of a fellow whose wife found a passport on a public counter where she worked. No one knew the owner and the passport photo had clearly been meddled with. Concientious lady phone the Dept. to report the matter and got little change but forwarded the document to them anyway. Not long after they sent her back a replacement without comment.

[stormrose]

Why do supposed friends and allies need to steal passports in the first place? Where are the arrangements for western spies to obtain obfuscated ID?

[patsy]

quote:Originally posted by Major von Tempsky

Helen's prima donna act was all for the cameras, for domestic consumption.


Agree totally. In fact, I think that had the event involved Palestinians (or a national of some other 3rd world country), Helengrad would've not been so hot under the collar - she would've almost justified their actions. HC is driven by ideology, not principles.

[mikescott]

quote:Originally posted by minder

Wait ..there's more front page news!

Jewish cemetary desecrated in Wellington, the city from which Helen Clark launched her abuse at the Israelis. If ever some sickos needed encouragement, Helen gave them plenty - saw how the hand that the Slimy Chirac kissed was furiously waving around for the world to see?

Real good look for NZ! [xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]

PS. Where were you, Belgarion=Marcer, when the cemetary was desecrated? ;)




Notice that Belgarion=Marcer is still conspiciously quiet about the desecration of the Jewish cemetary.

Helen must be very proud of NZ's image overseas - a PM lending support and encouraging such a dastardly act.

Coincidence? Only if you belong to the flat earth society as Belgarion and his type do.

Well done, NZ. The Palestinian and anti-semitic world applauds your PM. Clap ...clap ...clap ...clap!

Suicide bombing next, Helen? Let's encourage more of those?;)

[Gryffyn]

Minder, I fully condemn the mindless desecration of the Jewish gravestones. Such action as no place in our society.

To link it to the PMs comments is to excuse the **sholes that did it. They are to blame - nobody else.

Trying to blame the PM is like trying to blame Israel for conducting unlawful operations in our country in the first place - it does not excuse the vandals actions.

Would you care to explain why the PM of NZ should not castigate any foreign power whose nationals carry out unlawful operations in NZ. In no way has she condoned any anti-semitic action.

[Gryffyn]

Sahme on you Minder. Shame that you would take such a cheap shot to undermine the sovereignity of NZ by finding links where there are none. You don't work for the CIA do you?

Shame that you can somehow misread the poor grandstanding by Helen as support for anti-semitism.

Israel misbehaved; yes. Helen made a big fuss; pity. Losers attack our beautiful cemetary; shame. Minder thinks that Helen supports this; more shame.

[Cooper]

The Israelis have a term... "En Brera" meaning "No Choice" ie they have no choice but to defend themselves as they aren't welcome anywhere else in the world. They weren't exactly welcomed to Palestine with Apple Pie and Scones, and very few of their neighbours recognise the right for them to exist.
Helen was right to do what she did, in my opinion, it's her patch and her job to ensure we don't have another Rainbow Warrior.The Israelis will claim that the ends justified the means in their case.

[kittydashwood]

I think this is a wonderfull opportunity for Bonny Donny Brash to step up and sort it all out, show us his statesman like qualities.

[Gryffyn]

Actually France did eventually apologise Minder but as always you are not up with the facts.

Frances crime does not excuse Israel's crime.

Shame Minder that you are su un-patriotic to use this to slag off Helen.

What kind of message as Israel sent the world here? To S**t on your allies?

Shame Minder that you just can't admit you are wrong.

What's with slagging off our Island neighbours? We routinely deport them and we always prosecute passport fraudsters (not forgers Minder - facts again).

But Minder, shame, would have us lick the boot of anyone supported by America from reading hsi post.

I'm sure a green card or a kibbutz awaits you as you feel so unsupportive of NZs right to protect its sovereignity.

How do you make the connection from Helen telling off fraudsters to her embracing grave desecration? You can't except by shamefully ignoring facts.

Shame on you Minder. Real NZers would be happy that our police force and judicial system are up to stopping this activity. Hopefully they'll also catch the losers who damaged the graves.

Meanwhile losers like you sacrifice our freedom to protect ourselves and criticise fraudsters to make impossible links. What next? PErhaps you'll claim Al Queda were behind it and that Helen is hiding Osama Bin Laden somewhere.

Shame on you Minder.

[Gryffyn]

Minder says:

"So to the descecration of the Jewish cemetary - is it any surprise? Of course helen and in turn, NZ as acountry, encouraged the act."

Really? Got any facts to support that encouragement? Doubt it.

Shame on your lies Minder.

[mikescott]

quote:Originally posted by Gryffyn

Minder, I fully condemn the mindless desecration of the Jewish gravestones. Such action as no place in our society.

To link it to the PMs comments is to excuse the **sholes that did it. They are to blame - nobody else.

Trying to blame the PM is like trying to blame Israel for conducting unlawful operations in our country in the first place - it does not excuse the vandals actions.

Would you care to explain why the PM of NZ should not castigate any foreign power whose nationals carry out unlawful operations in NZ. In no way has she condoned any anti-semitic action.






We don't disagree on the PM of any country protecting its sovereignty.

Where we must disgaree is that I believe Helen contributed to the desecration of the Jewish cemetary. She did this by sending a very strong signal to the world that NZ is a two-faced country very happy to embrace wrongful acts - as long as it suits her political aims.

Helen is two-faced about NZ's sovereignty - just last year, Helen was smooching up to Chirac, the President of France, a country which committed the worse act of terrorism yet committed in NZ. Not only did France committed the act, it bullied NZ into releasing them to a tropical holiday resort and has never apologised.

Ah, but our great PM is very happy to be seen in Chirac's company - because France is anti-America. French citizens also have a history of being anti-semitic - France co-operated in World War 2 to ship thousands of Jews to the gas chamber.

Helen still has Chirac's slimy kiss imprinted on her hand - a hand that represents NZ.

So what kind of message has Helen sent to the world?

It is a message that NZ is two-faced. If it suits NZ, we keep quiet and embrace countries which have actually done us REAL harm. Preferably anti-American countries.

If it suits NZ, we will get on our high horse and throw abuse at a couple of passport forgers. Especially when the country is supported by America.

What about all the Tongans, Samoans and other Islanders blantantly overstaying in NZ and committing crimes? Anyone of you hear Helen on this topic? So much for our sovereignty.

So to the descecration of the Jewish cemetary - is it any surprise? Of course helen and in turn, NZ as acountry, encouraged the act.

Well done, NZ. Clap ...clap ...clap ...clap.

We must be so proud of ourselves.

Suicide bombing next, Helen? [^]

[belgarion]

quote:Originally posted by minder

Helen is two-faced about NZ's sovereignty - just last year, Helen was smooching up to Chirac, the President of France, a country which committed the worse act of terrorism yet committed in NZ. Not only did France committed the act, it bullied NZ into releasing them to a tropical holiday resort and has never apologised.


Personally, I'd prefer to smooch up to a country that:

a) doesn't believe that killing 1.5 million through punitive sanctions is a good idea
b) doesn't believe that slaughting another 15,000 more on false pretences is a good idea
c) doesn't believe that killing another 6,000,000 million with depleted uranium is a good idea

... Smooching up to France or smooching up to the US of A?

Take you pick.

[Gryffyn]

Belg - please don't confuse the issue you'll only encourage him. France is not deserving of smooching up to no matter how bad the alternatives.

The issue is this - shame on Minder for his un-patriotic stance.

The cemetary vandals are crims and hopefully will be caught punished.

Minder, shame on him, somehow thinks Helen and NZ encouraged this act. He has yet to show how applying our laws and condemning criminals equated to this.

Belg - your comments are equally wrongheaded - France is no saint and it is simply not the issue here.

Minder supports the illegal action of Israeli nationals in NZ and is against free speech for those who would condemn it. Shame on him.

[marcer]

Minder "Notice that Belgarion=Marcer is still conspiciously quiet about the desecration of the Jewish cemetary."

If you refer to my posting of 17 July at 4.45pm, you'll find I did refer to the desecration.

Illiterate as well as ignorant are you Minder?

Regards Marcer.

[Gryffyn]

Israel's Foreign Minister, Silvan Shalom, said: "We are sorry about this matter. It will be dealt with and all will be done to restore Israel's long history of good relations with New Zealand to their previous correct ties."

and

The Jerusalem Post quoted a former director-general of the ministry, Alon Li'el, as saying Mossad was damaging "Israel's foreign relations image, and this is far worse than the bilateral damage caused to our relations with New Zealand.

"No country likes its sovereignty infringed upon. The problem is that the Mossad doesn't seem to be learning from its mistakes, and lately there have been too many of these."

[Gryffyn]

Gosh Minder - even the Israelies admit they did wrong - something that you seem unable to do.

Shame you don't support the rule of law and freedom in NZ.

[Gryffyn]

The Government has reacted angrily to New Zealand Jewish Council claims its stinging condemnation of Israel over the actions of the alleged Mossad spies is further evidence of bias against the state.

And it has indicated, if necessary, it is prepared for the long-haul if it needs to maintain diplomatic sanctions against Israel.

Emotions were fuelled after vandals attacked historic headstones on Jewish graves in a central Wellington cemetery overnight and spraypainted swastikas on them.

New Zealand Jewish Council president David Zwartz, also Israel's honorary counsel in New Zealand, claimed the Government's handling of the issue had added weight to the community's belief it was "anti-Israel".

He was not calling the Government anti-Semitic, but said the gravestone attacks were linked to the Government's criticisms.

Foreign Affairs Minister Phil Goff angrily rejected all of Mr Zwartz' claims.

Attempts to blame the Government for the "deplorable" grave attacks were ill-founded and would not justify silence in the face of criminal action, Mr Goff said.

[Gryffyn]

Please note Minder - Goff condemns vandalism.

Shame you seem to think NZ should not condemn illegal action by Israeli nationals.

[Gryffyn]

Meanwhile, the Prime Minister said it was not known whether the vandalism of Jewish graves in Wellington was connected to the court case. "But we condemn those actions without reservation," she said.

Strange Minder but isn't that the opposite of what you claim? Facts are in the paper - Helen quoted etc meanwhile you make up crap for your dirty little freedom hating smear campaign.

Shame on you - admit you are wrong and that you have no FACTS to support your pathetic claims.

[Major von Tempsky]

Who says France is not worthy of smooching? :-o

I note that in France Jewish servicement heroes from WW1 had their graves attacked and Chirac condemned this.
I think there's a pretty obvious cause and effect between Helen's little theatrical rush of blood to the head and the vandals attack on Jewish graves in Wellington.

In the broad sweep of history the whole thing (i.e. the passport thingy followed by the attack on 19th century graves)is a victimless crime and a non event.
Just settle down there, eh.

[Gryffyn]

MVT - sorry, not bagging France in the greater scheme of things nor Israel for that matter. Both are countries that NZ should wish to be long term friends with.

It was in fact Minder who earlied said "because France is anti-America. French citizens also have a history of being anti-semitic - France co-operated in World War 2 to ship thousands of Jews to the gas chamber".

On the cause and effect point it is true but sad that losers might use soemthing like that to justify their deplorable actions. But surely you don't advocate keeping quiet on the Israeli-passport issue in case of such actions? That would be akin to giving into terrorism.

I hoped it was only Minder that didn't support NZ freedom.

Note his pathetic attempt to deflect attention form his lies by slagging France in his last post.

France did wrong - we criticed them then, jailes their spies and let shamefully let them off early. Now we are friends again and that is good. We have told Israel off and we'll be friends again.

Minder thinks this is anti-semitic. What a loser.

Shame on Minder - traitor to NZ freedom.

[Gryffyn]

Meanwhile, the Prime Minister said it was not known whether the vandalism of Jewish graves in Wellington was connected to the court case. "But we condemn those actions without reservation," she said.

Strange Minder but isn't that the opposite of what you claim? Facts are in the paper - Helen quoted etc meanwhile you make up crap for your dirty little freedom hating smear campaign.

Shame on you - admit you are wrong and that you have no FACTS to support your pathetic claims.

[Major von Tempsky]

Minder,

Think Juliette Binoche. :-)

Salut,

Gustavus.

[mikescott]

The issue does not change irrespective of how hard you lot try to shy away from it : Shame on Helen and NZ for smooching to the No 1 terrorist country as far as the South Pacific is concerned - France. All is forgiven as far as NZ is concerned - Nuclear testing, Rainbow Warrior and NZ forced to release French terrorists commiting murder in NZ to a tropical resort.

How do we know that all is forgiven and that terrorism against NZ is okay? Because Helen smooched up to the French last year in the full glare of the world. What kind of signal does that send to the world?

That NZ respects our own sovereignty? Respect my a r s e. NZ couldn't have sent a stronger signal to the world that we respect terrorism - as long as it is done by a State big enough to bully us.

Kill people in NZ and poison our environment with nuclear testing - that's okay and entirely forgivable.

Steal a couple of our passports and we are going to burn you at the stake!

That's what smooching up to the French and jumping up and down over a couple of passports tell the world - it's okay to attack the Jews but keep clear of our mates, the French.

Any wonder whoever desecrate the Jewish cemetary read Helen's and NZ's signal that's it's ok to be anti-semitic.

Shame on you lot for supporting NZ's two-faced approach to sovereignty.

We should all be so proud that we at last have in NZ, a country which has officially encouraged anti-semitic behaviour.

[Gryffyn]

Minder - last years "smooching" was not a response to French crimes you moron. USA quiet on that terrorism - care to comment on that specifically?

Shame on you.

[mikescott]

Write and say what you want, Gryffn - this fact does not change.

Helen smooched up to France last year and let the world know that it's okay to kill in NZ as long as you are big enough to bully.

But it's not okay to forge a couple of passports - we will put on our angry masks and jump up and scream about our sovereignty.

Talk about totally inappropriate responses.

I will defend NZ's sovereignty any time and at any place - but not over a couple of forged passports when we have a PM smooching to the No 1 terrorist state in the South Pacific to tell them that's it all okay over French spies killing in NZ.

You just don't want to get it, do you? [^]

[Gryffyn]

MVT - and don't forget that French chick in Amelie and Sophie Marceu :-)

[Gryffyn]

Back to the baiting:

Minder said:

"So to the descecration of the Jewish cemetary - is it any surprise? Of course helen and in turn, NZ as acountry, encouraged the act."

Tell me again how NZ encouraged it? Just to easy to play the anti-semitism card really.

Clark and Goff have already publically condemned those actions as any freedom loving NZer would.

You must really hate our NZ freedom - which includes the freedom to move on and work with old enemies.

Shame on your lies Minder.

[Gryffyn]

Fact 1 - true - but not encouragement of said act.

Fact 2 - sadly true. Please explain lack of USA condemantion some time.

Statement 3 - not facts!!! No anti-US "side" exists. They did not say it was ok to kill in NZ - more lies. Also completely irrelevent to your initial statement that NZ supports anti-semitism. Being weak on the jail terms given to French terrorists does not mean we should not condemn other illegal actions.

Fact - you have failed to prove anti-semitic encourgement and you make up stuff to support your weak arguements. Look up non sequitur some time when mummy can reach the dictionary off the bookshelf for you. Unless of course you continue to see France as our enemy forever in case you'll probably want to ban their language in NZ as you hate freedom so much.

Fact - Ronniw who you worship refused to condemn French actions - please comment.

[Gryffyn]

New Zealand PM Dismisses
Chirac Praise of Pacific Nuclear Testing
Agence France-Presse 28jul03
AUCKLAND—New Zealand's Prime Minister Helen Clark sharply dismissed President Jacques Chirac's praise of the Pacific for allowing nuclear testing, saying it had been unsafe and unhealthy, it was reported Monday. Chirac said during a tour of French Pacific territories at the weekend that the testing in the South Pacific had played a role in safeguarding France's security.

"When France brought its atmospheric testing to the South Pacific the standard response in New Zealand was to say, 'If it is so safe, why don't you do it at home?'," Clark was quoted as saying by the NZPA news agency.

"I guess we still feel that way," she said in South Korea where she was attending a function to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the signing of an armistice to end the Korean War.

Clark said she did not accept Chirac's assurances, based on a study by the International Atomic Energy Agency, that the testing had had no effect on the short- or long-term health of people living around the test grounds.

"My understanding is that the level of cancers reported would be greater than one would expect," she said.

The testing was fiercely condemned by New Zealand and its neighbours, and Clark's Labour Party legislated in 1987 to make the country nuclear-free in the wake of vehemently anti-nuclear sentiment.

"From New Zealand's point of view we are very pleased it is a chapter that has been closed," Clark said in South Korea.

"As long as France tested nuclear weapons in the Pacific there were going to be a lot of issues between us and we can shut the door on that."

Antagonism between the countries over France's nuclear tests at Muroroa Atoll in French Polynesia during the 1970s and 1980s culminated when French secret service agents bombed a Greenpeace protest ship, the Rainbow Warrior, in Auckland in 1985, killing a Portuguese photographer.

France paid reparations and testing soon stopped, but it took many years before the two nations resumed normal relations again.

Chirac ordered the resumption of French nuclear tests in the southern Pacific shortly after he was elected president in 1995.

After a swift six-test campaign, the facilities were shut down completely a year later.

[Gryffyn]

There's some fact for you Minder.

Please explain US silence on French terrorism and why NZ should not condemn illegal actions by Israelie nationals.

[Gryffyn]

Helen did apologise for her anti-bush comemnts. As a NZ I was embarassed by her political gaffs.

I used the US as they seem to be hot on the war against terror, you seem to idolise Reagan and you also love to sling the word hypocrite around whenever it suits.

Look up, irony while your mum as the dictionary down from the shelf.

[mikescott]

Lies? :D:D:D:D

Fact - descecration of Jewish cemetary happened night after Helen and NZ drummed out anti-Israel sentiments for the whole world to hear, read and see. All over two forged passports. Like wow!

Fact - France agents killed in NZ. NZ allowed murderers to leave for tropical resort to serve sentence.

Fact - Helen and NZ smooched up to France last year and said all is forgiven - it's okay to kill in NZ. As long as NZ and France are both on the same side of being anti-US.

We sure know how to signal to the world how much our sovereignty is worth. Like tuppence.

So shame on me for pointing it out. :D:D:D:D

I will wear that shame as my badge of honour from hereonin. Sob...sob ...NOT![^][^][^]

[Gryffyn]

Fact 1 - true - but not encouragement of said act.

Fact 2 - sadly true. Thank you for admitting US shame re lack of condemnation.

Statement 3 - not facts!!! No anti-US "side" exists. They did not say it was ok to kill in NZ - more lies. Also completely irrelevent to your initial statement that NZ supports anti-semitism. Being weak on the jail terms given to French terrorists does not mean we should not condemn other illegal actions.

Fact - you have failed to prove anti-semitic encourgement and you make up stuff to support your weak arguements. Look up non sequitur some time when mummy can reach the dictionary off the bookshelf for you. Unless of course you continue to see France as our enemy forever in case you'll probably want to ban their language in NZ as you hate freedom so much.

Fact - Ronnie who you worship refused to condemn French actions.

Fact you simply lie when you post to support yourself.

[Cooper]

The fact that no-one condemned the "French action" was obviously a signal Clark took to heart... the world was saying that if you can't look after your own backyard, don't expect us to... therefore Clark looked after "our patch" this time around.
The Anti-semitism shown in the cowardly and idiotic desecration of the grave yard is indicative of the reasons WHY Mossad and the Israeli govt must go to what we would deem extreme lengths to protect Israeli sovereignty.

[mikescott]

Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, UK, Japan, US, Canada etc...did they condemn the French action? No. So why pick on the US? BTW I thought and still think it is shameful that all those countries kept quiet. [^]

You are obviously trying to divert the shame of NZ itself capitulating our sovereignty to the French? Try something else. Helen and NZ smooched up to the French last year - that's a fact. [^]

No anti-US bias? Try Helen grovelling an apology for her anti-US and anti-Bush administration comments last year. :D

There is a duty of care here by responsible governmments not to in any way encourage or condone terrorism and anti-semitism. NZ can be very proud that it has a government which told the French last year all is forgiven (by smooching up to them) for their agents killing in NZ, and a government which happily blew a couple of forged passports incident for the consumption of illiterates like yourselves for political gains.

I will now go and wear my badge of shame ......as a badge of honour. :D:D:D:D[^][^][^]

[Gryffyn]

Coops - cowardly and idiotic are good descriptions.

[Gryffyn]

Thank you Cantab. Whole heartedly agree.

[mikescott]

quote:Originally posted by cantab

What Israel did pales into insignificance compared with what the French did. Still Israel has attacked the sovereignty of NZ and Helen is right to show her/our displeasure. The people who commited the desecration of the Jewish headstones are criminals and should be punished harshly by the justice system.

Cantab




Yes, Cantab - Israel attacked our tuppence sovereignty. Helen showed what NZ's sovereignty is worth by smooching to the French last year.

Talk about blowing things out of proportion over a couple of forged passports. Remember that was what Hitler was very good at?

[Major von Tempsky]

The easiest test of Helen's antics are the effects.
Effect No 1: Desecration of early NZ Jewish settler's graves in Wgtn.
They had nothing to do with it and Israel didn't exist at the time they were buried.
Effect No 2: Page 1 of today's Press and presumably other NZ metropolitans.
Hamas, an undemocratic and terrorist organisation, currently responsible for the resignation of the Palestinian PM and the breakdown of Palestinian law and order in Gaza, has hailed Helen as a friend and a hero.
By their friends ye shall know them.
Effect No 3: A decrease, if not disappearance of NZ-Israeli trade, tourism, investment, technological cross fertilisation. And given Israeli IT is a world leader....
Good one Helen, now shoot NZ in the other foot.
A PM who was mentally balanced and stable would have left it to her Minister of Foreign Affairs to issue a terse one-off statement deploring the incident and requestinghat those responsible in Israel be punished. Instead of trying to escalate it into the next Middle East war.

[Gryffyn]

My God - now minder links Clark to Hitler after claiming she encouraged the grave desecration. How desperate.

Shame on you minder - giving the desecrators an excuse where there is none for their awful actaions.

Shame on your NZ and freedom hating stance.

[Gryffyn]

My God - now minder links Clark to Hitler after claiming she encouraged the grave desecration. How desperate.

Shame on you minder - giving the desecrators an excuse where there is none for their awful actaions.

Shame on your NZ and freedom hating stance.

[Gryffyn]

Sorry about the double up - not intended.

MVT - your normal good logic has failed you. The Hamas link is a pathetic non sequitor.

The PM speaks out when NZ sovereignity impuned. Simple part of her brief as head of SIS etc.

Vandals wreck tomb - those low lifes need are are condemned by Clark and Goff.

Trade issues are not the point here - they exist or don't exist prior to this incident. Business not govt should be driving that!

I'm sorry you feel so strongly on this MVT - it's a cheap shot at the PM when the fault for this problem is elsewhere.

[mikescott]

And I am so ashamed too ......[^][^][^][^]

NZ can be so proud now that Hamas considers NZ a great friend.

Suicide bombing next, Gryffyn?

Hamas hails Clark's stand against Israel
19 July 2004
By LEAH HAINES

New Zealand has an unexpected friend in Hamas, a terror group feared in the Western world, which has thanked this country for its diplomatic slap to Israel over the spy passport scandal.


Word of Hamas' endorsement will spread quickly throughout the Islamic world and will bolster the safety of Kiwi troops working in Iraq, according to Victoria University religious terrorism expert Jim Veitch.

Citing a statement from the Hamas stronghold of Gaza, the Islamic resistance movement's website says Hamas "has highly appreciated the daring position of the New Zealand Government against the Zionist entity".

Professor Veitch said: "To do something like that almost offers (Kiwi troops) protection. Groups inside Iraq are really picking off the partners the United States has . . . Maybe New Zealand has offered itself some sort of protection."

Prime Minister Helen Clark delivered a stinging rebuke to Israel over its refusal to apologise for, or explain the actions of, two suspected spies convicted of trying to obtain a false New Zealand passport.

The actions of Uriel Kelman and Eli Cara were a deliberate breach of New Zealand's sovereignty, she said, before unleashing a barrage of diplomatic sanctions and suspending high-level visits to and from Israel.

Hamas said her response was a model for all countries to follow, citing New Zealand's "stand in adopting firm measures against the Zionist entity's violations of laws on foreign lands to achieve certain targets". Miss Clark would not directly comment on the endorsement yesterday, saying only that if Hamas agents had committed the same crimes, they too would suffer the consequences.

A spokesman for Miss Clark said the Government had not had any official contact with Israel at the weekend and was still waiting for an apology.

Israel is sticking to its policy of neither confirming nor denying the identity of its secret agents, though many Jewish media commentators are largely resigned to the diplomatic slap, many describing the affair as an embarrassment for Israel.

[Cooper]

I would read it more as an attempt by Hamas to give credence to their own actions by trying to associate a "western" country with their own idealogy... grandstanding, in other words... the acid test would be to ask if Clark would react the same if it were another country other than Israel, and I imagine she probably would. If that is the case, then it isn't anti-semitism, just a reaction (rightly or wrongly) to another country interfering with our sovereignty.

[mikescott]

Notice how quiet Helen and NZ are on Hamas endorsement of NZ's anti-Israel stance.

Nothing more glaringly shows the encouragement and comfort that Helen ad NZ are giving anti-Semitics than Hamas's statement. Case is proven that the disproportionate response by Helen and NZ to two forged passports led to the desecration of the Jewish cemetary.

So rise up, NZ and stand proud. [xx(]

[Gryffyn]

Spot on Coops but minder thinks Helen is akin to Hitler and that NZ is anti semitic.

Poor minder, can't excuse his beloved Ronnie though for his silence on terrorism.

[mikescott]

Gryffyn,

Nz is only exercising its freedom to cosying up to France and now, Hamas.

Stand tall, NZ - the country is in great company. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Gryffyn]

Well minder, for once you are half right - we are excercising our rights in being friends with France. Please demonstrate any NZ cosying up to Hamas (an evil bunch of f**k heads if there ever was one).

You can't because we haven't.

Shame on you minder - slurring NZs good name again.

[mikescott]

NZ's good name?

Good name as in a bunch of anti-semitics being encouraged by Helen and NZ's disproportionate response to two forged passports to desecrate the Jewish graveyard?

Good name as in Helen and NZ grovelling apology for anti-US and anti-Bush remarks?

Good name as in sending troops (oops, engineers) to Iraq to try and repair damage done?

Good name as in okaying French murder in NZ?

Good name as in being hailed by Hamas now as a country which is anti-Israel.

Yes, good name indeed. Clap ...clap ...clap!

I am so ashamed .......NOT! :D:D:D:D

[Gryffyn]

Oh the lies. So shameful minder. Surprised you can bring yourself to even post on a NEW ZEALAND board. Grow a spine you worm.

[Gryffyn]

Meanwhile, the Prime Minister said it was not known whether the vandalism of Jewish graves in Wellington was connected to the court case. "But we condemn those actions without reservation," she said.

Strange Minder but isn't that the opposite of what you claim? Facts are in the paper - Helen quoted etc meanwhile you make up crap for your dirty little freedom hating smear campaign.

Shame on you - admit you are wrong and that you have no FACTS to support your pathetic claims.

[mikescott]

Yes, Helen made the comments which encouraged the desecration and she then condemns the desecration.

Too late, isn't it?

Just like when she went anti-US and anti-Bush last year and then, grovel NZ's apology?

Lies? Only in your simple mind, Gryffyn. Only in your simple and Helen manipulated mind.

I am so ashamed ....... to be associated with a country which is hailed by Hamas. You should be too, Gyffyn, even if you are only half decent.

[mikescott]

And NZ now happily joins France as a country where anti-Semitics take comfort and encouragement from anti-Israel sentiments from the government to desecrate Jewish cemetaries.

Well done, NZ - stand tall and be proud. Clap ...clap...clap.

Desecration of the dead

By Dominic Casciani
BBC News Online community affairs reporter


There are widespread fears of rising anti-Semitism in Europe and the UK. But it's not just the living being targeted - very often it's the dead.

Toppled stones at the cemetery
At the entrance to Jewish plot in Chatham in north Kent, there is a remembrance stone for the victims of the Holocaust.

The family who erected the monument included the words "to all victims of persecution", reminding those who see it that prejudice comes in many forms.

But while the monument stands, 21 gravestones lie flat. Subsidence is not to blame. These stones were deliberately and systematically knocked over, one at a time, on the night of 20 and 21 November.

Gabriel Lancaster, chairman of the community's burials committee, wants to get on with repairs and ease the minds of families.

But the stones, now covered with the debris of winter, must remain in situ because regulations require modifications to prevent such desecration happening again.

"There are a number of other faiths and communities in this cemetery - Sikhs, Chinese, Muslim and of course Christian," says Mr Lancaster.

"I've been around all of them. None of them have been touched in the way our plot was. It clearly indicates a racist intent."

Safe from harm

The Medway is one of most important places for Anglo-Jewish history; it has long been a gateway to the UK for the Jewish traders and families who have fled persecution in eastern Europe.

Mr Lancaster has himself uncovered a reference to families given protection in Rochester in 1180.
All they have done is upset people - there's no real thought gone into what they did other than to try and antagonise people

Gabriel Lancaster


Viewpoints: Anti-Semitism and Europe

Today the Jewish community is small - perhaps only 40 individuals and families - and the pretty synagogue lies at its heart.

Throughout this history, says Mr Lancaster, the community has suffered little to no anti-Semitism. This time he believes it has been targeted.

"This was quite deliberate - they must have taken some time to do it.

"This is the first really nasty attack we have ever had. It sounds trite, but it's mindless vandalism," he says.

"All they have done is upset people - there's no real thought gone into what they did other than, I suppose, to try and antagonise people."

Kent Police are treating the incident as racially motivated but say they are keeping an open mind.

Local residents speculate that rather than racism, it could have been drunken teenagers.

But even if racism isn't to blame, it's certainly been a local talking point after the far-right British National Party unsuccessfully put up candidates in the 2003 council elections.

Year of desecrations

Figures compiled by the Jewish Community Security Trust (CST) reveal there have been seven cemetery desecrations this year.


Destruction at Plashet cemetery
In July swastikas were daubed on 11 gravestones in Southampton.

The worst incident of the year came two months earlier when almost 600 gravestones were toppled, vandalised or broken in east London's Plashet cemetery. Prosecutions relating to that incident are continuing.

"We've recorded 110 cemetery desecrations over 13 years. Where there have been arrests, it has often been teenage boys," says Mike Whine, of the CST.

On the other hand, some of these incidents have clearly been the work of organised gangs using pick axes and hammers. "You can't just topple over a stone that may weigh half a tonne."

While anti-Semitism has long been linked to tensions in the Middle East, Mr Whine says it is "an evolving virus" coming from different sources.

The CST says incidents linked to the Israeli-Palesti

[k1w1]

If this thread was about abortion I'd be wanting to know if you were Catholic, minder. Some disclosure please.

[mikescott]

Just a very angry and sad NZer that we have a two-faced government blowing two forged passports into anti-Israel propaganda.

Very very angry. :(:(:(:(

[k1w1]

Not doubting that you are a New Zealander. Religious beliefs(if any) and ethnicity please

[k1w1]

"To dissemble, or not to dissemble, that is the question ..."

Minder, Act III,Sc II,Vs 21.[u]</u>[u]</u>

[Gryffyn]

Very very much a sad lier you are minder. 1 + 1 = 3 in your books whenever required.

Never be ashamed to be a NZer. Sometimes regret the actions of fellow citizens though like those that vandalise gravestones.

However, no need to lie and distort truth just because you hate Helen, Poor old pathetic minder.

[mikescott]

I feel sorry for you, Gryffyn, because only a Helen manipulated mind would not see that she (and in turn, NZ) blew two forged passports (without any proof that it was Mossad) into a high profile headline grabbing anti-Israel incident - inciting anti-Semitic actions and praise from Hamas.

To protect NZ's sovereignty? Yes indeed - sovereignty that's worth tuppence as Helen smooched it away to the French last year. :D

So do stand proud, Gryffyn, for what Helen and NZ stand for. Afterall,the likes of you equate two forged passports with French murder in magnitude of offencing against NZ's sovereignty.

How pitiful and how low can you go. [xx(]

[Gryffyn]

Minder - even Israeli press is admitting it was a ****ed-up security operation.

At no point have I ever equated any such thing - explicitly the opposite in fact. Another outright lie from you.

Minder - simple question - do you believe that NZ should never again have cordial relations with France and, if so, should the same level of grudge holding be applied by all countries in the world?

Just answer the question please.

And I'll always stand proud as a Kiwi.

[mikescott]

Relationship with France should be cordial but only after a full apology and admission of wrong from the French.

And tell me, Gryffyn, what kind of relationship should NZ have with the US and Israel?

You proud as a Kiwi to see Helen (and so, NZ) grovelling the apology for being so blatantly anti-US and anti-Bush?

You proud as a Kiwi that Helen (and so, NZ) incited anti-Israel actions by such high-handed high profile anti-Israel bashing over two forged passports?

You proud that Hamas sees fit to praise NZ for being anti-Israel?

What kind of poison do you think has been left in its wake by such actions?

You just don't get it, do you - there is a thing call even-handedness and fairness, and Helen (and so, NZ) has not applied such virtues in the case of two forged passports.

The true measure of a country is not how it kowtow to bullying nations (like France and the US or UK for that matter) but how it treats nations bullied and in the case of Israel, beseiged by enemies committed to its destruction.

We kowtow very well, don't we, Gryffyn? [^]

[k1w1]

6.30 pm and still no answer from Minder...

An eloquent silence ?

[mikescott]

K1w1, tell us what religion and race has to do with Helen (and so, NZ) acting with such vindictiveness and venom towards Israel, a free nation surrounded by an ocean of sworn enemies committed to its destruction? Right from its birth. Right from when it offered hope to Jews persecuted by the millions by Hitler and his thugs. Aided by the French, Austrian and Italians.

Over two forged passports! Helen (and in turn, NZ) incited anti-Semitic actions by the disproportionate response to our so-called tuppence (kowtowing to France) sovereignty. The proof is the reaction of Hamas and the desecretion of the Jewish cemetary - you lot just don't get it, do you?

Now, K1w1, tell us your religion, sex and race. Then I am happy to disclose mine. You asking tells us more about the way you approach life of course than anything else. [^]

[Gryffyn]

Can or worms duly opened - now we see minders true colours.

The western world and even some of the Arab world fully acknowledge Israels right to exist and be safe but minder thinks they can do what they want and any who say otherwise, well, he'll just play the anti-semitism card.

I think you read too much Leon Uris - or had it read to you minder.

Keep the distortions coming.

[mikescott]

A free nation surrounded by an ocean of sworn enemies committed to its destruction is playing on anti-Semiticism? :D

Get real, Gryffyn, and get a life. You need one. [^]

[k1w1]

quote:Now, K1w1, tell us your religion, sex and race. Then I am happy to disclose mine.

Religon : RC (Retired Catholic)
Sex : Male
Race : No such thing as a race - thats a construct, I think
what you want is my ethnicity. I am of Irish descent mainly, with a bit of Scot ( whae hae MacDunk !) and Belgian ( ze little grey cells, Hastings !...)

Looking forward to hearing from you, Minder

[Gryffyn]

Haven't been keeping up with recent peace deals, UN resolutions or mid-eastern politics have we minder. Might require actual exposure to up to date facts which you obviously struggle with.

Shame on you playing the holocaust card like that.

[mikescott]

Thanks, K1w1.

I am neither Jew nor Arab. I am neither Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Seven Day Adventist, Baptist, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist or any religion. And no bull dust here either.

Now tell us what religion and race has to do with Helen (and so, NZ) acting with such vindictiveness and venom towards Israel, a free nation surrounded by an ocean of sworn enemies committed to its destruction? Right from its birth. Right from when it offered hope to Jews persecuted by the millions by Hitler and his thugs. Aided by the French, Austrian and Italians.

Over two forged passports! Helen (and in turn, NZ) incited anti-Semitic actions by the disproportionate response to our so-called tuppence (kowtowing to France) sovereignty.

The proof is the reaction of Hamas and the desecretion of the Jewish cemetary - you lot just don't get it, or do you?

[Gryffyn]

We get your lies, distortions and NZ hating accusations though. Shame on you.

NZ acted with no venom - it held back on making the trial anything more than a passport issue. No charges of espionage or related crimes were brought.

Those Israelies committed the crime and all you hitler connections have nothing to do with it. Stop playing the holocaust card and to the time for the crime against NZ minder.

Shame on you.

[mikescott]

I am so ashamed .....:D:D:D:D

So ashamed of a country which kowtows to bullies but over a couple of forged passports, deliver such vindictiveness and venom on a small free nation (in an ocean of hostile intentions) that anti-Israel and anti-Semitic forces read the signals for what they were.

The proof? Desecration of the Jewish cemeatry immediately after the venom from Helen (and so, NZ) and a lovely thank you and praise from HAMAS.

One incident could be a coincidence but two, verification.

So stand tall for the world to see, NZ and be very proud of what you have done - NZ has provided the true measure of itself as a country. Clap ..clap. [^][^][^][^]

[Gryffyn]

Well, thanks displaying your complete lack of logic and sense of proportion for all to see. Shame on you.

[k1w1]

"Now, K1w1, tell us your religion, sex and race. Then I am happy to disclose mine." Minder.

Kiwi replies :
"Religon : RC (Retired Catholic)
Sex : Male
Race : No such thing as a race - thats a construct, I think
what you want is my ethnicity. I am of Irish descent mainly, with a bit of Scot ( whae hae MacDunk !) and Belgian ( ze little grey cells, Hastings !...)

Looking forward to hearing from you, Minder"

Minder replies :

"I am neither Jew nor Arab. I am neither Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Seven Day Adventist, Baptist, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist or any religion. And no bull dust here either."

Interpretation by K1W1 :

Minder offers " I will if you will first"

K1w1 replies " okay then I accept, I will go first"

Minder's reply says " now all of Sharetrader knows what my word is currently worth"

Disclosure: Would not buy a used car off Minder.

[mikescott]

Ethnic background - As mother England as they come. Religion - None (went to a Christian school which taught other religions as well). Sex - Male.

Now, K1w1, now tell us what religion and race has to do with Helen (and so, NZ) acting with such vindictiveness and venom towards Israel, a free nation surrounded by an ocean of sworn enemies committed to its destruction? Right from its birth. Right from when it offered hope to Jews persecuted by the millions by Hitler and his thugs. Aided by the French, Austrian and Italians.

Over two forged passports! Helen (and in turn, NZ) incited anti-Semitic actions by the disproportionate response to our so-called tuppence (kowtowing to France) sovereignty.

The proof is the reaction of Hamas and the desecretion of the Jewish cemetary - you lot just don't get it, or do you?

[mikescott]

Gryffyn, how's the head feeling with that sand around it?

I reckon it's not deep enough yet as you can still feel bad about Helen( and so, NZ) venomous attack on a small free nation over a couple of forged passports - sending the signals to prompt anti-Semitic descecration of the Jewish cemetary and Hamas praising NZ for its anti-Israel stance.

Never mind, don't feel too bad. NZ's measure as a nation is now well known around the world - after all we have a PM who made anti-US and anti-Bush comments and then, grovellingly apologised. :D:D:D:D

[k1w1]

As you say you are English, Minder, it may explain how you have mistaken ethics, for a county near sussex.

If it were me I would have guessed you were welsch - like what you did on the deal you made with me.

I wouldn't trust you, your political or other views, or your word, as far as I could throw you, Minder.

Thanks for giving me the measure of you , though :).... I'm done here.

[mikescott]

Ah, k1w1, we don't like being asked the hard question, do we? :D:D:D:D:D

A person has to be a certain religion and race seems to be your train of thought if he articulates a certain view.

Don't like being wrong, do we? [^][^][^][^]

That's it, go home to kindergarten, and learn again. ;)

[duncan macgregor]

Hi guys can I join in macdunk Is church of scotland whatever that Is. Lived In a haunted house once In brisbane, always votes a government out. Refuse to listen to the propaganda crap that gets spewed forth by polititions from all over. Spent 3yrs In the army In kenya found out the bull**** they spewed forth about what really happened. Take It from me guys dont get worked up they are bull****ting from a great height regardless of what you think. You are all wrong kiss and make up Its not worth the hassle.
cheers macdunk

[Major von Tempsky]

The whole "issue" is a storm in a tea cup. You're being taken for suckers.
Page A11 of today's Press -
"Relief for Govt as Spy Scandal blows National off front page". by Colin Espiner.
You've been had.
I thought Helen's indignation was somewhat overdone.....

[craic]

Gryffyn, I am happy to stay out of this argument but I would point out that the charges laid were the only ones that could be substantiated. Anything more would have been a hard slog - very expensive and very likely to fail. The arrested parties were not the principal and could simply have argued that they were collecting the item for payment. You cannot go to Israel to investigate. It is standard practice to lay charges that cannot be denied and that was the result they got here. I find it hard to maintain any sympathy for any of the parties in that part of the world.

[Gryffyn]

MVT - could be a grain of truth in that. Politicians of all creeds always have eye on the main chance.

Craic - yeah, easy road taken both ways. Gave Helen a chance to tick em off which they deserved. Only fools like minder play the holocaust card to make it more than it is.

I have a lot of sympathy for people just trying to live their lives in that part of the world.

[miner]

"Anti-semitic" what a handy little saying that one is,great to use when you don't want people to say anything against what you are doing,hell even non Jewish people use it.

Now I wonder who came up with it and why hmmm???.