Nat/act/nzf 2023

[Logen Ninefingers]

I had a quick read of the deed and needing permission to use it appears to only apply in respect of commercial activities https://tuwharetoa.co.nz/app/uploads/TMTB-2007-Deed.pdf and https://www.tuwharetoa.co.nz/app/upl...y-Judgment.pdf

So that's all good then? Cool.

[Entrep]

So that's all good then? Cool.

I don't know. But it's far besides the point I was trying to make. I need more than 5 minutes to form an opinion on that.

[davflaws]

No offense is being taken, and I do understand what you are saying.

And ultimately all of this ties back to TOW (which is now on the other thread).

If this thread is anything to go by I think we are in for a robust conversation that is perhaps long overdue. And I am looking forward to considering both sides of the coin.

Ultimately, if you do not believe that TOW was pitched as a partnership with Iwi then anything they try to do that is not 100% democratic will be anathema. I do understand that point of view, because I have had a lot to say in the past from that angle. Far too much to say in my case, as I am ignorant about TOW and much of NZ History.

If, on the other hand, you are accepting of the notion that TOW was pitched as a partnership (and written that way in the te reo version) then co-management/governance (or whatever fancy marketing name you want to give it) is not only perfectly reasonable... it is something The Crown has a duty to honour by coming up with novel ways to affirm Maori tikanga and ensure that local Iwi get an equal say in key areas that impact them (such as the management of natural resources). All within the framework of what is often referred to as a liberal democracy.

At no point am I saying that you or anyone else is 'wrong' in your views. In fact, I think you all raise very strong points.

I am just trying to make sure I understand the history of the issues from more than a conservative white perspective so that any final conclusions I am able to draw (if any) are as well reasoned as I can make them.

Because I know that I am very biased, and in fact prejudiced.

We all have our prejudices. I really admire the way you are examining yours and the spirit in which you are sharing your thinking.

[dobby41]

And my understanding is that this is what led to the NZ Wars. Some tribes had a very different understanding to what the 3 key articles meant.

The NZ Wars were land wars - Pakeha wanted more than the Maori were willing to give so Pakeha trumped up an excuse to fight and then, after they won, they confiscated even more land.
The NZ Company had a lot of input into this.
A sad period in NZ history.

[dobby41]

17% against the rest of NZ - so be it.

When Te Tiriti was signed there were 80000 Maori and less than 2000 Pakeha.
Now you'd like to change that contract (or the meaning of it) based on Maori only having 17% of the say?
Interesting concept of fairness.

[ithaka]

Good post from another forum

"In Western nations today there is less racism and more egalitarianism than there has ever been, yet the racial oppression narrative seeks to undermine societal harmony and cause acrimonious groups within society to feel hatred, shame and demoralisation regarding their own country.
NZ is one of several Western nations being accosted by identity politics trouncing merit.
This is Marxism 101, understood by many, yet who are almost powerless to prevent the ultimate destruction of the most successful civilisation to have graced the planet.
Why? Because the destruction emanates from within.


New Zealand's current path, even including many of its proposed solutions, has no chance of making things any better, let alone resolving the problem.
Until all New Zealanders are all equal under all laws, the societal destruction will continue."

[mistaTea]

When Te Tiriti was signed there were 80000 Maori and less than 2000 Pakeha.

I do find that to be useful context. I was under the impression it was more like 100K Maori to 2K European/Pakeha at the time of the signing.

Let's shift this to the other forum?

It does bring into question the notion that all 530 odd tribes would have signed the contract if it was made clear that The Queen would be taking full chieftainship/ tino rangatiratanga of their lands.

Maori made up ~98% of the population back then. Yet we believe that virtually all of the tribes handed over all of their power so readily? I don't know the answer, but want to learn more about it that is for sure.

It is a different perspective that starts to make me question just how much I really do know on the topic. Very little, in fact.

[davflaws]

New Zealand's current path, even including many of its proposed solutions, has no chance of making things any better, let alone resolving the problem.
Until all New Zealanders are all equal under all laws, the societal destruction will continue."

Many people believe that Rogernomics and Ruthenasia between them did more damage to New Zealand Society than anything else that has happened in the last sixty years

[Balance]

Many people believe that Rogernomics and Ruthenasia between them did more damage to New Zealand Society than anything else that has happened in the last sixty years

Absolute leftist woke garbage.

NZ would be bankrupt today and in terminal decline but for Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson.

6 years of Ardern & co have however indeed done more damage to NZ than at any time on the history of NZ. Useless and clueless misfits.

[mistaTea]

Until all New Zealanders are all equal under all laws, the societal destruction will continue."

Yes indeed. It is shameful to have such a large percentage of the population continue to lag the rest of the country in so many areas.

And it a common observation of the Colonised.

And although I also want a true meritocracy, I do acknowledge that there a lot of things we need to do between now and that Glorious Day to get there.

All that needs to be figured out is what those things are (to help Maori and also the non-Maori underclass) and how to implement them in a way that is enduring and won't provoke the wroth of the rest of the nation.

Whatever you do, you must take the nation along with you. It does not work long term when things (whether from left wing or right wing political idealogies) are just rammed through.