If National wins ...

[iceman]

Yes Labour/Little/Robertson are fast losing any credibility. Some of the facts are:
Gross national disposable income up +0.9%
Investment in fixed assets +14.5%
Investment in tangible goods (software) +3%
Plant & machinery + 3.8 (in quarter)
consumer spending +3.9%
exports +7.6%
imports +3.9%
dairy +13%
manufacturing +2.8%
horticulture & seafood both up and the list goes on and on

[winner69]

Just as well we have MMP

Otherwise the way Labour is going NZ would almost become a one party state

[neopoleII]

once the next election is over....... national wins.
shearer will be brought back into the game and then we will see a strong labour party.
IMHO shearer came in... or was pushed in.... too early when he was leader.
he has some more experience now, and i think he will do well after the next election.
that i think will be the game changer.
shearer is a good man and a sincere man.....
and a man that will hopefully pull the labour party back as a united party to the center left.
i even think that key has respect for him.
if shearer does become the leader of Labour i would seriously look at his propositions.
hopefully he clears the / his house of unionist and lefty lobbyists.
at this point in time....... i have no respect for labour....... and yet i used to vote for them in the old days.

[Daytr]

So it appears prophetic that we were only just discussing the Maori Party alliance with National and then there is a bust up in a very similar vein to what Labour experienced over the foreshore etc. What was National thinking not consulting with Maori fully on this. I think its quite likely they would have agreed with it if they had been or even just put a time frame of review say 20 years. Just quite incredible that Nick Smith etc are that naïve or arrogant & I'm assuming its the latter. They make a big song and dance about this marine sanctuary meanwhile encouraging companies in regards fossil fuel exploration and seabed mining. TTR are about to have another crack at mining FE of the seabed off Taranaki after already being turned down by the EPA. The government is trying to pave their way through the RMA that skirts the EPA. They are looking to do the same thing over open air GMO trials, looking to take the power away from regional & local councils who currently decide. The only reason they should take the power away is to put in place a nationwide ban on the practice. Open air trials would be a disaster waiting to happen, with contamination a certainty. They would be risking the growing and very lucrative organic market and also yet again, NZs clean green image. (which is just a façade anyway.)

[fungus pudding]

once the next election is over....... national wins.
shearer will be brought back into the game and then we will see a strong labour party.
IMHO shearer came in... or was pushed in.... too early when he was leader.
he has some more experience now, and i think he will do well after the next election.
that i think will be the game changer.
shearer is a good man and a sincere man.....
and a man that will hopefully pull the labour party back as a united party to the center left.
i even think that key has respect for him.
if shearer does become the leader of Labour i would seriously look at his propositions.

I can't imagine he'd want to have another go.

[iceman]

So it appears prophetic that we were only just discussing the Maori Party alliance with National and then there is a bust up in a very similar vein to what Labour experienced over the foreshore etc. What was National thinking not consulting with Maori fully on this. I think its quite likely they would have agreed with it if they had been or even just put a time frame of review say 20 years. Just quite incredible that Nick Smith etc are that naïve or arrogant & I'm assuming its the latter. They make a big song and dance about this marine sanctuary meanwhile encouraging companies in regards fossil fuel exploration and seabed mining. TTR are about to have another crack at mining FE of the seabed off Taranaki after already being turned down by the EPA. The government is trying to pave their way through the RMA that skirts the EPA. They are looking to do the same thing over open air GMO trials, looking to take the power away from regional & local councils who currently decide. The only reason they should take the power away is to put in place a nationwide ban on the practice. Open air trials would be a disaster waiting to happen, with contamination a certainty. They would be risking the growing and very lucrative organic market and also yet again, NZs clean green image. (which is just a façade anyway.)

Yes clearly Nick Smith should have consulted more on this although he did have the 2 Iwi closest to the Kermedecs sign off on it. But not the Maori Fisheries Commission. Of course Maori have no historical or customary catches there. What I do not understand is why the media et al are solely talking about the rights of Maori that have never fished there but no mention of the confiscation of fishing/property rights of operators that have been fishing there for many years. To me that is no less serious than the perceived Maori rights in the area.

[dobby41]

Yes clearly Nick Smith should have consulted more on this although he did have the 2 Iwi closest to the Kermedecs sign off on it. But not the Maori Fisheries Commission. Of course Maori have no historical or customary catches there. What I do not understand is why the media et al are solely talking about the rights of Maori that have never fished there but no mention of the confiscation of fishing/property rights of operators that have been fishing there for many years. To me that is no less serious than the perceived Maori rights in the area.

Historical bit of who took what off whom need to be put aside.
Wasn't the Kermedecs given to Maori?
If so then how could they take it back again without agreement.
Seems very similar to what a lot of the Waitangi Tribunal cases on historical agreements are about - you promised X but never gave so I want Y back.

[iceman]

Historical bit of who took what off whom need to be put aside.
Wasn't the Kermedecs given to Maori?
If so then how could they take it back again without agreement.
Seems very similar to what a lot of the Waitangi Tribunal cases on historical agreements are about - you promised X but never gave so I want Y back.

No Kermedecs are not owned by Maori. The debate now is purely about fishing rights

[dobby41]

No Kermedecs are not owned by Maori. The debate now is purely about fishing rights

OK - fair enough.
I meant the right to fish was given to Maori.
Then they want to change the rules?
Is that a fair summary?

Maori haven't used the fishing right but was the fishing right they were given subject to using it within a certain period?

[iceman]

Yes that is probably a fair summary dobby41. Maori were compensated through the huge Sealord deal back in the 90s through which they received certain fishing rights, both of existing (at the time) quotas and future quotas. This is the same rights as other quota holders have. I know people who have a significant part of their business fishing around the Kermedecs , which is now at risk of destruction, hence my ponderings here as to why media only talks about Maori rights. It is also worth to remember that all the parties in Parliament voted for this when it went through and even today is supported by at least National, Labour and the Greens.