If National wins ...

[BlackPeter]

Bjauck, I said "democracy in my books ...". No doubt, I might have too high standards for the so called majorities in the UK and in the US. North Korea is apparently as well a democracy: "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" and so used to be communist East Germany "German Democratic Republic". Both no democracies in my books. Semantics can be a distraction from the real issues.

[Bjauck]

Bjauck, I said "democracy in my books ...". No doubt, I might have too high standards for the so called majorities in the UK and in the US. North Korea is apparently as well a democracy: "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" and so used to be communist East Germany "German Democratic Republic". Both no democracies in my books. Semantics can be a distraction from the real issues.

Ok fair enough. "Your democracy" is very specific. Elections based (only?) on "facts" and elimination of hate crimes are aspirational. How many countries achieve that? "Unruly mobs" although in the UK they were emboldened by the Brexit vote, are not confined to Brexit UK and certainly would become a problem if the police and courts did nothing to curtail them.

It does depend on the specificity of your standards....but does the post-Brexit rise in hate crime indicate the "so-called majority" in the UK no longer believe in the UK liberal constitutional democracy with rule of law? I am not sure that connection can be drawn. Brexit may be an outcome we do not like but even if we presume a majority of the voters for Brexit wanted a curb on immigration, I am not sure if it would be safe to assume that even a majority of those voters would be comfortable with a constitutional democracy that did not protect minority rights, the rule of law and a free press.

[Raz]

Ok fair enough. "Your democracy" is very specific. Elections based (only?) on "facts" and elimination of hate crimes are aspirational. How many countries achieve that? "Unruly mobs" although in the UK they were emboldened by the Brexit vote, are not confined to Brexit UK and certainly would become a problem if the police and courts did nothing to curtail them.

It does depend on the specificity of your standards....but does the post-Brexit rise in hate crime indicate the "so-called majority" in the UK no longer believe in the UK liberal constitutional democracy with rule of law? I am not sure that connection can be drawn. Brexit may be an outcome we do not like but even if we presume a majority of the voters for Brexit wanted a curb on immigration, I am not sure if it would be safe to assume that even a majority of those voters would be comfortable with a constitutional democracy that did not protect minority rights, the rule of law and a free press.

Can't think of one democracy where elections are based on facts to start with, yeah very aspirational..great comment.

[elZorro]

Here's an article I can relate to, from someone well up in the research community who has been watching MBIE for any signs of action. National had promised all kinds of research, to bring up productivity. They pushed a bit more into the research funding in 2009, but since then they've been pulling back. Again, the commenter agrees the biggest govt mistake being - they pulled R&D tax credits. Now look at us, relying on net immigration for any growth.

National didn't bring us to a Brighter Future, they're bringing us down the OECD table.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...9+January+2017

[winner69]

Can't think of one democracy where elections are based on facts to start with, yeah very aspirational..great comment.

Maybe democracy per se is slowly lying it's way into oblivion

AS recent Journal Of Democracy articles suggest democracy is in decline. it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation.

[craic]

Yes, of course, many people are more than happy to follow a good leader who is strong enough to deliver them from perceived evils rather than a collection of losers who have formed themselves into the sticky mess we call MMP and be told what is best for them. Have a close look at Singapore. Find me a beggar or a homeless person there. Then take me a photograph of a policeman on he streets or give me the name of any serious drug dealer like those we read about in our largest city.

[Bjauck]

Maybe democracy per se is slowly lying it's way into oblivion

AS recent Journal Of Democracy articles suggest democracy is in decline. it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation.

I hope it won't be a question of some people appreciating a system, only if it starts to disappear. Some people may need to put histories of Stalin's USSR, Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, Pinochet's Chile etc onto their Summer reading list. Luckily the UK and USA have mature constitutional democracies. However it would be foolish to assume that their systems are unbreakable.

The forgotten and left behind in the USA and UK actually would now prefer their voices to be heard - rather than the political and business elite continuing to dominate government policies. For them a robust representative parliamentary democracy would be the answer rather than putting their faith in "strong leaders" who mix with those same elites, against whom the brexit and trump supporters probably rebelled. The EU and APEC have been the collateral damage in this current backlash from voters in the UK and the USA.

[BlackPeter]

Maybe democracy per se is slowly lying it's way into oblivion

AS recent Journal Of Democracy articles suggest democracy is in decline. it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation.

Yes, of course, many people are more than happy to follow a good leader who is strong enough to deliver them from perceived evils rather than a collection of losers who have formed themselves into the sticky mess we call MMP and be told what is best for them. Have a close look at Singapore. Find me a beggar or a homeless person there. Then take me a photograph of a policeman on he streets or give me the name of any serious drug dealer like those we read about in our largest city.

Well, yes - I think it was Churchill who said that "democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all others".

The need to interact with people who might have different views than you, can be frustrating and annoying.

I agree as well that many countries are not mature enough to run a working democracy. They need a strong man (or undemocratic system - e.g. China), and Singapore is a good example for a country which really benefitted from this solution. However - look at many other countries with strong and undemocratic leaders at the top. Would you really want to live in Somalia, in North Korea, in Afghanistan, in the Sudan, in Venezuela or in Russia?

All these countries are presided by autocrats (so called "strong men"). Some of these countries do have pseudo democracies (with no real alternative for the electorate) but most of them belong to the most corrupt countries of the world. This is the problem - most men (people?) become corrupted by uncontrolled power.

I think I prefer to live rather in an inefficient democracy than in a kleptocracy where I know that nobody is able to control the corrupt psychopath at the top - even if some people might have had at some stage big hopes in the man (some always do).

[craic]

Whether you like it or not, the Western world is moving in behind strong leaders and away from the weaker democracies. France will be next to go. You don't have to have a "corrupt psychopath at the top" but the NZ Labour party will have to find a stronger figure than the present leader if they are to hope of ruling this country in the foreseeable future. Maybe if they took their foot out of their mouth and offered the leadership to Winston Peters, he might save them. He could offer free trips to Rarotonga for all pensioners who reach 80 without having a hip replaced.

[BlackPeter]

Whether you like it or not, the Western world is moving in behind strong leaders and away from the weaker democracies. France will be next to go. You don't have to have a "corrupt psychopath at the top" but the NZ Labour party will have to find a stronger figure than the present leader if they are to hope of ruling this country in the foreseeable future. Maybe if they took their foot out of their mouth and offered the leadership to Winston Peters, he might save them. He could offer free trips to Rarotonga for all pensioners who reach 80 without having a hip replaced.

Not sure to whom you address this, but given that it is in response to my post ... I am certainly not concerned about the NZ Labour party - I think we both agree that they are a basket case and have a big Little problem. Yes, Winston First might save them, but do we really want that (as long as they don't change)? As well - remember - it is the unions electing unsuitable Labour leaders.

craig, sorry to confuse your little political universe ... but not all people who loathe Trump are Lefties. Some are just decent. I am politically independent, but more often than not a National / ACT supporter ... (and never ever voted for Labour)