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  1. #19761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    I guess OCA could sell a village at above NTA value and then buyback its shares which are trading at below NTA?
    Doesn't that apply to all of the property companies out there at the moment? Most are trading at heavy discounts to NTA. My initial reaction is that the asset valuation is suspect? Or is the market wrong?

  2. #19762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daytr View Post
    Or just stick to their knitting.
    The biggest issue they face is they run operationally at a loss.
    This is why I don't buy into the NTA, where do you value a loss making asset?
    Summarising daytr and blackcap post I see the share price as NTA less (degree of suspect valuations) less (present value of operational losses) …and maybe less a value attributed to a company specific negative sentiment.
    Last edited by winner69; 27-04-2024 at 01:05 PM.
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  3. #19763
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Summarising daytr and blackcap post I see the share price as NTA less (degree of suspect valuations) less (present value of operational losses) …and maybe less a value attributed to a company specific negative sentiment.
    Which is why I pose the question, perhaps you can eat NTA after all?

    If the market is valuing the business at under half NTA and it's possible to sell the assets at book value, maybe it's not so silly to actually start selling bits off.
    Last edited by allfromacell; 27-04-2024 at 01:24 PM.

  4. #19764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    What would that achieve for shareholders, selling the sliver (killing the golden goose) and buying back the stock?
    Increasing every financial metric per share.

  5. #19765
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    Quote Originally Posted by allfromacell View Post
    Increasing every financial metric per share.
    …in the hope the share price will increase eh (like same PE on higher EPS) …but many studies have shown this hardly ever happens

    Biggest beneficiaries are often management who have bonuses based on EPS or TSR … they think buybacks are cool.
    “ At the top of every bubble, everyone is convinced it's not yet a bubble.”

  6. #19766
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Doesn't that apply to all of the property companies out there at the moment? Most are trading at heavy discounts to NTA. My initial reaction is that the asset valuation is suspect? Or is the market wrong?
    I think you have all forgotten Lyall Taylor's wisdom on why you will never get NTA value out of OCA, bar some freakish circumstances (like those 0% interest rate days). Mind you it was 179 pages back!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Here is the argument that OCA shareholders will never be able to cash out at net asset backing for the OCA shares they own. That discount to asset backing for all periods bar the freakish circumstances of near zero borrowing rates during Covid, is destined to remain at 50% of NTA, or thereabouts, forever.

    "The discount to asset backing has a lot to do simply with the way the assets are packaged from an asset class standpoint, and the different costs of capital that apply to different investor constituencies and asset classes. New Zealand's cities and their super-prime real estate prices, which include those city sited retirement complexes, are valued on the books (and in the real world by house buyers) at cap rates as low as 3% (and often closer to 2% net of costs and tax). In a world with low (in historical terms, not compared to the Covid period) interest rates, this is not an unrealistically low yield for super-prime assets with favourable trends in rent revisions, A-grade tenants, long lease terms (for the lifetime of the tenant in the case of the retirement villages), and an income stream that is inflation protected (in the long term anyway, when rights of occupation roll over). Even a modest pace of 2% annual rental growth (below historical averages) would generate all-in after-tax returns of some 4%, which with inflation protection, is very attractive relative to bonds and other high-grade debt."

    "However, the issue is that active equity managers - who are the natural buyers of OCA stock - are not bench marked against cash and high-grade bond returns, or even high-grade real estate. OCA, as a listed company, is part of the "listed equities" bucket, and the performance of the institutions that purchase OCA are therefore bench marked against equity market indices, rather than cash or bonds or property prices. The average stock in New Zealand is currently priced with an expected return of perhaps 8%, which is another way of saying the cost of (listed) equity in NZ is currently about 8%. If equity managers were to buy OCA and realise only a 4% return (which they likely would if the stock was priced at 1x book), but the index was to generate 8% pa, it would be of little benefit to the fund manager to argue to their clients that the returns are low risk and quite attractive relative to fixed income. The clients would say, we allocated you money to get "equities exposure", and you're only up 4% and the market is up 8%, and that is not satisfactory performance. Because OCA is part of the "listed equities" bucket, it is expected to deliver "listed equities" returns of 8%."

    "Consequently, listed on public markets, the assets that underlie OCA are priced with a cost of capital reflective of NZ equities in general, which is a cost of capital that bears no relation to the cost of capital private buyers of prime A-grade real estate are subject to. Because OCA's underlying assets generate only perhaps 4%, this requires the stock trade at about one half of book value."

    The above is adapted commentary from our former esteemed forum member Lyall Taylor.
    https://lt3000.blogspot.com/2020/07/...flywheels.html

    Except Lyall was not talking about OCA, but a stock called 'Hong Kong Land' (HKL), which owns super prime real estate in Hong Kong and Singapore. All I did was take out the references to HKL, substitute OCA and voila! Lyall's logic resonates with me, despite the commentary being ostensibly about a different listed stock in a different property and stock market.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 27-04-2024 at 02:12 PM.
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  7. #19767
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    Great logic. It's hard to argue with.

    NZ Super funds invest about 5 percent of the portfolio in the NZX. So they may only choose one retirement sector stock. OCA probably is not that stock.

  8. #19768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daytr View Post
    Or just stick to their knitting.
    The biggest issue they face is they run operationally at a loss.
    This is why I don't buy into the NTA, where do you value a loss making asset?
    It is getting to the stage where, in the absence of takeover offers, it seems breaking up the company, selling individual villages and ceasing to operate loss making beds may be the best way forward for shareholders. It seems unlikely that government will make running standard rest homes particularly profitable any time soon. The outlook for long term residential real estate prices is quite sober compared with the past. If OCA can get remotely close to current NTA values, that is still quite a margin above current SP. Perhaps it is time to get a break up valuation for OCA.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 27-04-2024 at 03:58 PM.

  9. #19769
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    Come 5/5/2024 and OCA will have been listed for 7 years. That its current market price is .19 cents below listing price is appalling and will be against all holders expectations for this stock when first floated to the market. Yet there are directors who paid as much as $1.40 a share for this stock so they must see long term value. How long though is long term. Hoping that some light might be forth coming with next announcement but not holding my breath. Patience is proving to be a tiring difficult discipline.

  10. #19770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    I think you have all forgotten Lyall Taylor's wisdom on why you will never get NTA value out of OCA, bar some freakish circumstances (like those 0% interest rate days). Mind you it was 179 pages back!




    SNOOPY
    If this is correct (and I'm not saying it is or is not), why does sum trade at NTA?
    Last edited by Cupsy; 27-04-2024 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Grammer

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