If National wins ...

[elZorro]

A bit like the Trekka, eh!

NZ's cheap Landrover, with rear wheel drive only, that's not a great comparison Craic. Firms like PAC tread water for decades waiting for a decent contract like this to come along. A customer so big and organised that they are planning years in advance, and once the contract is awarded there will be no issues with them meeting the payment schedule, and no backing out. The NZ Govt were just such a customer, and they chose to spend taxpayer money in the USA instead. PAC is one of our SMEs in global terms. It's just another indication that National is still pushing the globalisation idea, and that they will not be upset if PAC doesn't make it through the next decades.

John Key will be at Fieldays in Mystery Creek pressing the flesh in mid June, just down the road from PAC's HQ. They usually have one of their aircraft out the front during the event, they are very proud of their manufacturing. But by all accounts, it has been a struggle finding enough good customers.

[iceman]

The NZ Govt were just such a customer, and they chose to spend taxpayer money in the USA instead. PAC is one of our SMEs in global terms. It's just another indication that National is still pushing the globalisation idea, and that they will not be upset if PAC doesn't make it through the next decades.
.

Are you saying they don't have a viable business if the Government doesn't guarantee x amount of purchases from them ? If so, do you believe this is a business that has or should have a future in NZ ?

[elZorro]

Are you saying they don't have a viable business if the Government doesn't guarantee x amount of purchases from them ? If so, do you believe this is a business that has or should have a future in NZ ?

That depends on whether you have any optimism in aluminium and steel fabrication, electronic design and manufacturing, coachwork, exports of high value products, tourism products, engineering jobs for graduates, management jobs, etc on NZ territory. PAC was based on fertiliser spreading aircraft I think, and they now have a very good STOL aircraft, the XL-750, that is used in tourism ventures like skydiving, and on short runway access in places like PNG.

But they are being pulled this way and that by the tender process for large overseas contracts, with no surety they'll get any orders. You'd think that when the NZ air force job came up, they'd have a better than even chance, when they already had a history with them, and they are a NZ manufacturer.

What was the message from the National Govt, tell me that? It certainly wasn't a vote of support. So the opposite of that is?

[fungus pudding]

A bit like the Trekka, eh!

God forbid. I remember them so well - every part of them was absolute junk right down to the Skoda motor

[blackcap]

That depends on whether you have any optimism in aluminium and steel fabrication, electronic design and manufacturing, coachwork, exports of high value products, tourism products, engineering jobs for graduates, management jobs, etc on NZ territory. PAC was based on fertiliser spreading aircraft I think, and they now have a very good STOL aircraft, the XL-750, that is used in tourism ventures like skydiving, and on short runway access in places like PNG.

But they are being pulled this way and that by the tender process for large overseas contracts, with no surety they'll get any orders. You'd think that when the NZ air force job came up, they'd have a better than even chance, when they already had a history with them, and they are a NZ manufacturer.

What was the message from the National Govt, tell me that? It certainly wasn't a vote of support. So the opposite of that is?

It tells me EZ that they (the company) just maybe just maybe may not be good enough at doing what they do.

[elZorro]

It tells me EZ that they (the company) just maybe just maybe may not be good enough at doing what they do.

$154mill covers buying in a lot of expertise, if it's needed.

Here's the more complete story, PAC offered a much cheaper option, yet the contract was awarded for 11 US aircraft. A lot more expenditure in this small area, when we're supposed to be up against it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...l-baffles-Goff

XL-750 spec:

By utilising well proven, reliable and globally-supported systems – such as Pratt & Whitney
Canada PT6A-34 turboprop engines, Hartzell props and Garmin avionics – we can ensurethat high-quality, reliable support is always within reach anywhere in the world.

Meanwhile, just to keep everyone guessing, National is working on trying to show David Cunliffe is a bit of a sneak, that Meteria Turei is a hypocrite for using her income to buy nice gear (shades of Tuku, it worked last time), and Paula Bennett is working on a makeover for election year. Russel Norman is a disguised communist, and Labour have no ability to budget, so their ideas are all a fraud.

Surprisingly, the TV crews and some media are lapping all this up, and people on the street are spouting it as the gospel truth. National has of course saved NZ from the overspending Labour Party.

I can't believe the spin.

[craic]

el zorro - If this had been a Labour Govt. decision, you would have been crowing from the rooftops. Don't you see the cage you are in?

[elZorro]

el zorro - If this had been a Labour Govt. decision, you would have been crowing from the rooftops. Don't you see the cage you are in?

Craic, what do you mean? If Labour had made the buying decision, it would have been awarded to a local manufacturer, as per their policy settings. If they had gone past PAC, I would have been equally as damning, or there would need to be a very good reason for it. I'm fairly sure there is no good reason in this case. Like most firms that have stayed in business for a long time, they can and do meet high standards, they just need a suitable margin and the time to do the job right.

Who is Des Ashton? Head of Acquisition section, defence force.
http://www.defence.govt.nz/reports-p...o-annex-h.html

Des Ashton is Deputy Secretary of Defence (Acquisition). The Acquisition Division acquires equipment for the New Zealand Defence Force where project value exceeds NZ$15 million whole of life.
Prior to his appointment on 1 October 2008, Des had careers in the RNZAF and industry.
His RNZAF service (1969-1993), included four years in Washington DC, two with the Singapore Air Force, one with the RAF in UK and numerous postings and short tours in New Zealand and overseas.
He was General Manager of Safe Air Limited (1994-2000) and Vice President for Airframe Engineering for Ansett Australia and Air New Zealand (2000-2002)
2002 - 2008 he operated a consultancy, Ashton Technologies, specialising in aviation, technology and defence. Customers included L-3 Communications, Kaman and Kellstrom of USA, Aquaflow Bionomic Corp, NMIT, TAIC, Trade NZ and numerous airlines and engineering companies. He spent two years as CEO of Port Marlborough Limited and was a board director of Marlborough Lines (electricity), Cuddon Engineering, Flightcell International and other companies.
Des had honorary roles in the Defence Industry Committee of New Zealand, the Aircraft Industry Association Engineering Division, the Royal Aeronautical Society and New Zealand Aeronautical Trusts.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10890585

Yes, the Beechcraft trainer is widely used, but it's at least US$6.9mill, which must reflect the avionics inside. You can buy a new private jet for the same sort of money.

http://www.aircraftcompare.com/manuf...chcraft/6#15_c

[slimwin]

You just don't get it. Our Airforce has ct4's do do that role. What is needed is a different type. PAC would be starting from fresh.
Its an idiots argument to argue for it. Unbelievable.

[elZorro]

You just don't get it. Our Airforce has ct4's do do that role. What is needed is a different type. PAC would be starting from fresh.
Its an idiots argument to argue for it. Unbelievable.

OK, I said I wasn't an expert (on anything really). I looked up the specs for the two aircraft as they are. The standard CT/4 has a 224kW piston engine, the T-6C has about 820kW from a P&W turboprop, giving it a top speed of about 320mph, the PAC plane just 188mph. But PAC did build one turboprop version, obviously on spec a few years back, it's just no-one picked it up. Sure, the PAC aircraft is about 2/3rd the size of the other unit.

PAC seem to have suggested the Air Force update or buy a few more of the CT/4s, and just one or two of the Beechcraft trainers, so all of the trainee pilots could have some flying time in the same aircraft the US and other countries use in their training. That seems sensible to me, best of both worlds, and cheaper.

Even if the govt spent $154mill on gear from NZ suppliers, they'd still have been a lot better off, because of the tax return. But PAC's tender looked like being $100mill lower, even before that.

I'd still like to see the Skyhawks back in the air - against this tender the $30mill it was going to cost to do that, looks like chicken feed. Why not give that job to PAC or other NZ firms, at least. Yes, I know, it was Labour who canned the Skyhawks.

Edit, too late. http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...for-RNZAF-jets

Now we'll wait for the real gen from Slimwin.