If National wins ...

[elZorro]

Since when is $500,000 "very little"? Nicky Hager is a trust fund kid.... The givealittle site is in my opinion being abused by people contributing to Hager. I find it quiet amoral for the Hager supporters misusing the givealittle site and what it was initially set up for and which does have many genuine cases.

So Blackcap, does that imply that Xero is also doing very well at the moment, with millions of income? I think you'll find they have costs, and so does the book publishing business. Nicky Hager's share for all that work will be about $56,000, but most of it won't be paid for a few months, according to the NBR article.

The person who started off this Givealittle account is a friend of a friend of Nicky's, he didn't know her. I think it's a very worthy cause, to be used for lawyers and other costs, to defend democracy in NZ. How else should his costs be paid - should he have to take a mortgage out on his house, to uphold democratic standards for the rest of us?

[BlackPeter]

So Blackcap, does that imply that Xero is also doing very well at the moment, with millions of income? I think you'll find they have costs, and so does the book publishing business. Nicky Hager's share for all that work will be about $56,000, but most of it won't be paid for a few months, according to the NBR article.

The person who started off this Givealittle account is a friend of a friend of Nicky's, he didn't know her. I think it's a very worthy cause, to be used for lawyers and other costs, to defend democracy in NZ. How else should his costs be paid - should he have to take a mortgage out on his house, to uphold democratic standards for the rest of us?

Nicky Hager is one of the one eyed mud slingers using any means to smear a successful government. No author or journalist worth this title would publish unsubstantiated accusations based on stolen material. He is a disgrace for whatever profession he claims to perform.

EZ, maybe you should try to take your ideological blindfold off. Do you really want to justify fundraising for somebody selling stolen goods (and if it is just IP) for political gain?

[elZorro]

BP: Nicky Hager is one of the one eyed mud slingers using any means to smear a successful government.

Nicky certainly isn't one-eyed, he had a go at Labour's GE policy at one stage. He's not a mud slinger either, he stated facts, he was relatively polite with the sensitive data, and he's nowhere near the likes of Cameron Slater. As for smearing a successful government? I'm not sure how to take that. Successful compared to what? Are you saying they've handled the NZ economy better than Labour did? In which case, please produce the stats, I'd like to see them. Are you saying that there are no mud slingers on National's side? We know for sure there are several, they're in the Dirty Politics book bragging about it to each other using disguised email accounts.

Key has ensured Jason Eade and Judith Collins have been cauterised from public perception of being involved from now on, but he's completely unapologetic about these events otherwise. Which means the show will go on, they'll just be a bit more careful.

[westerly]

Nicky Hager is one of the one eyed mud slingers using any means to smear a successful government. No author or journalist worth this title would publish unsubstantiated accusations based on stolen material. He is a disgrace for whatever profession he claims to perform.

EZ, maybe you should try to take your ideological blindfold off. Do you really want to justify fundraising for somebody selling stolen goods (and if it is just IP) for political gain?

Straight out of the National handbook. Ignore the message and have a standard answer to divert
attention away from the tricky facts.
' It was stolen material etc."
So what if it exposes the lengths National politicians and their dubious friends will go to to retain power.
It could be considered for the public good. Also less than $60000 is a lot less than $500000 Blackcap quoted. But why spoil a good story.
westerly

[Major von Tempsky]

In the chronological chain the theft of personal and private material by Rawshark comes first.... The point has been made elsewhere that there are one or two very large donors to Hager's "Defence Fund" who are desperate to conceal their identity in case it is disclosed in Police/legal opeartions against Hager. Wouldn't it be intriguing and interesting to see who they are? .... :-)

And where is Kim Dotcom these days?

[elZorro]

Thanks for the support Westerly. I've been having a look at the Labour Party details on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Labour_Party

Starting in 1919, Harry Holland, Michael Joseph Savage, Peter Fraser and others were leaders of Labour, and when Helen Clark stepped down in 2008 after nearly 15 years as Leader, there had only been 11 Labour leaders, with an average duration of over 8 years in office. Four of them actually died while in office, and the late David Lange was gravely ill when he stepped down.

Since then, Phil Goff lasted 3 years, David Shearer 2 years, David Cunliffe 1 year, and I assume David Parker as acting Leader won't count as one more until/if he is elected as Leader. So now the current average is a new Labour Leader every 2 years, and the trend is worsening.

This is not good. Labour have been completely stymied by opinion polls, they have reacted to those when they shouldn't have, they have played right into National's hands. Attack politics have made the position of leader of the opposition an unenviable one, but I refuse to believe that the leaders Labour have run through, are all unsuitable for the job. Labour has got to stand firm, the new leader must not be changed before the next election in 2017, and if they don't win that one, he/she should stay on until the next election. Helen Clark did that. It worked. The new Leader has to be supported unconditionally, just like John Key expects from his team.

In other words, Labour has to become a lot more business-like. Their brand must be protected at all costs.

[BlackPeter]

Nicky certainly isn't one-eyed, he had a go at Labour's GE policy at one stage. He's not a mud slinger either, he stated facts, he was relatively polite with the sensitive data, and he's nowhere near the likes of Cameron Slater. As for smearing a successful government? I'm not sure how to take that. Successful compared to what? Are you saying they've handled the NZ economy better than Labour did? In which case, please produce the stats, I'd like to see them. Are you saying that there are no mud slingers on National's side? We know for sure there are several, they're in the Dirty Politics book bragging about it to each other using disguised email accounts.

Key has ensured Jason Eade and Judith Collins have been cauterised from public perception of being involved from now on, but he's completely unapologetic about these events otherwise. Which means the show will go on, they'll just be a bit more careful.

Yeah right ... maybe Labour was not always sufficiently left wing and crooked to satisfy one eyed Nicky Mudslinger. Labour must have had at one stage sensible policies and honest leaders if it is true that Nicky attacked them.

Re the performance of the National government - I just came back from a trip to Europe and South East Asia. EZ, you don't seem to know in what sort of paradise we (you and I and all the other New Zealanders) live. All countries I visited have after the GFC a much higher public debt than New Zealand has thanks to the National government (and this despite having to deal with the Christchurch earthquake). In these other countries many generations will need to pay lots of taxes to just pay the interest for the debts their governments took on. In most countries I visited they have less political freedom than in New Zealand.

Just look at the OECD survey "best place to live" (www.oecdregionalwellbeing.org/region.html#NZ02). I took the liberty to look at the South Island, but assume the NI is not too far off. We compare well with regions in Norway, Sweden and Australia. Not a bad place to live. Obviously it depends on what you value, but in the areas which are important to me (political freedom, stable government, low public debts, safety (top 27%), environment (in the top 5%), health, low unemployment (top 7%), good housing (in the top 22%), reasonable balance between rich and poor) New Zealand (numbers are for the SI, but as indicated - NI is normally similar) typically features quite high. Only drawback: New Zealand's place in education is quite appalling (only in the bottom third), but this is just because National didn't had yet the guts to get rid of the by Labour introduced red brigades controlling our teachers education and education systems.

Unfortunately we have here in NZ a quite underperforming opposition (not in the OECD stats, but just look at the recent election results). They are so busy with infighting, mudslinging and supporting hollow men like Nicky Hager spreading stolen emails and lies that they stopped to listen to the very people they are supposed to represent. Don't think however we can blame National for that.

EZ, again - I am not a National supporter (despite having voted for them this time, just no other viable alternative around) and would love for NZ to have a political force on the left which is electable. This means however that whoever wants to form this opposition (and potential future government) first needs to sit down and start listening. Why don't you just show to us that you are able to do so and reflect instead of constant avoidance of arguments you don't like? If you want examples for that, than just go through the last couple of pages in this thread. Every time you don't know an answer you just start another topic. Pity you.

[elZorro]

BP, for someone who'd like to vote Labour, you're not looking very deeply. I only move onto other mini-topics when I've put up a good argument on earlier ones. It's you, and people like MVT, who don't take up my suggestion of supplying facts. Because there aren't any backing up your argument, usually.

You're so sure that National did a good job of the economy. The only reason National got out of the GFC looking relatively OK compared to overseas countries, was that Labour paid off almost all the core crown debt before they were voted out of office. They could have supplied tax breaks and blown it all away, but as it turned out, their policy was the fiscally prudent thing to do.

Since National haven't done much of note since, I hope we don't have to see them handle another GFC. They'll be completely out of their depth if that happens.

[BlackPeter]

BP, for someone who'd like to vote Labour, you're not looking very deeply.

Deep enough ... Today's Labour Party looks like an empty barrel to me. No talent left (excuse the pun, but I couldn't resist - it is so true these days), only hollow smear campaigns. Poor Labour.

I know ... there used to be some talented people on the Left, but Labours backstabbers killed them all off (well - politically). Last good man I remember standing on the Left was Shearer, and he knows as well what Labours problems are. Don't listen to me, just read your socialist smear press:

"Shearer ludicrously blamed the party’s defeat on “a group of people who wanted to take Labour to the extreme left” and lost the support of “centre” voters."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014.../nzel-s22.html

BTW - IMHO nothing ludicrous about Shearers comments. The first sensible statement I heard from a Labour person after the election. But anyway EZ, keep doing, what you are best in ... posting left wing political propaganda instead of listening. I am sure, you and your red brigades will help to keep Labour for a long time away from government.

Did you get your political education in Russia? Pitty Labour.

[blackcap]

So Blackcap, does that imply that Xero is also doing very well at the moment, with millions of income? I think you'll find they have costs, and so does the book publishing business. Nicky Hager's share for all that work will be about $56,000, but most of it won't be paid for a few months, according to the NBR article.

The person who started off this Givealittle account is a friend of a friend of Nicky's, he didn't know her. I think it's a very worthy cause, to be used for lawyers and other costs, to defend democracy in NZ. How else should his costs be paid - should he have to take a mortgage out on his house, to uphold democratic standards for the rest of us?

ElZorro, the reason I believe Hager to be a sanctimonious hypocrite is simple. In his book dirty politics he eschewed the dirty politics that the left are also engaged in and only showed the pieces that would make the right look bad. A journalist? Nah. A hit piece? Yeah I think so. Slater had plenty of "lefty dirty politics" in the stolen material but that was conveniently omitted.