If National wins ...

[elZorro]

BP, well unfortunately those taxes weren't put away in a separate pool of funds to ensure that the pension was funded.
So it wasn't funded at all & is being now funded by current tax payers.
I don't think anyone has the right to live off empty political promises.
Wasn't it National, Muldoon era that scrapped Super?
And now its National again not funding the Cullen fund.
I see also they are going to spend a huge amount on roads.
Key's motorways, billions spent, I wonder where the money is coming from?
More debt?

I think you made some good points there, Daytr.

Business confidence falls in NZ survey, weakest in the agricultural and manufacturing sectors. Mr Bagrie is starting to get worried. Wait until we all start asking the banks for more overdraft facilities, then they'll get the message. This is not going to be pleasant.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ay+1+July+2015

[Sgt Pepper]

Hmm - so you are saying that the people who paid the most taxes to fund the super scheme shouldn't get it?

Sounds like funny justice to me: either you are stupid, work all your life, safe money, pay taxes but don't get anything out of the pot - or alternatively you join the lefties and suck from the very beginning whatever you can get out of the welfare system ... and hey - as a big reward you get for this behaviour as well your taxpayer funded superannuation.

How do the say: There is a right way - and their is a left way

BP

I agree that National Super should not be means tested, however I, and many others are uncomfortable that it is paid to those who elect to work after the age of entitlement. One of the problems with National Super is its title. It is NOT a superannuation scheme, its an age related benefit. no more , no less. If that buffoon, Robert Muldoon had not scuttled Labours original scheme, which was modelled on Singapore National Pension scheme then people would still be entitled to a generous payment at 60, and entirely self funded.

[Daytr]

There have been may things that have been available in the past that are no longer.
Things like an affordable university education where it meant working through your holidays funded your year including a few jugs of frothy stuff at the pub each week. Doctors visits & hospital care with no queues. Ambulance call outs its actually quite an endless list.
Why are retirees a protected species.
And I'm tired of hearing they paid their taxes so they have earned it.
They obviously didn't pay enough, otherwise there would be a pool of funds sitting there to pay for it.

SP, its a two way street on those who continue to work. Some perhaps need to work as need the income as well as the pension.
Means testing would ensure that those who need it get it.
Some may not have saved what they should have, some were just on a minimum wage all their life and never had the opportunity to save what they need. Others particularly in Auckland will retire millionaires by doing very little due to inflated property prices.
Giving government or tax payers money to people who clearly don't need it is wasteful & immoral when there are impoverished people & cuts to social spending and an underfunded education & health systems.

[macduffy]

Spot on, Daytr. It's many years since the dedicated one shilling and sixpence social security tax was levied on earnings to provide, amongst other benefits, a Universal Super payment. National Super is funded from general taxation like everything else these days and if the country can't afford it either taxes will have to increase or savings made, either in quantum or in entitlement.

Disc: Receipient of the above.

[artemis]

... I agree that National Super should not be means tested, however I, and many others are uncomfortable that it is paid to those who elect to work after the age of entitlement......

A year or two ago, Mary Holm did a column on just this issue. The net of it was that admin costs and tax take both increased and that it is more economic to keep the current system.

And it is not a simple issue, either. For example:

- How are costs to business owners calculated when they lose experienced employees who decide the game is not worth the candle.
- Or when the owners themselves fire the staff, close the business and play golf instead.
- What about the income of the self employed, which is often very lumpy. Will they have to call WINZ each week to report their income so the next payment can be calculated?
- How would income from other sources be accounted for, such as interest, dividends, rents, untaxed capital gains.
- Would people manage income and assets to get the best outcome. (Answer - yes of course, just as they do in Australia.)

But to me the biggest issue is, as mentioned, the moral hazard of rewarding the feckless and punishing the thrifty.

Anyway, the current government is not going to bring this is, nor will any government which relies on NZ First. Maybe the 'many others' should be lobbying one or more parties to include it as a policy. (Good luck with that.)

[Daytr]

Its a bigger moral hazard imo to pay government money & taxes where its not needed.
How could it cost $1Bln in admin etc if 10% were culled? It could even be a higher percentage so even a bigger saving.
So I would suggest the report is a load of rubbish. Perhaps we should stop all checks on social spending, because it costs more to manage it than not apparently. Perhaps sell that to the ACC. LOL.
If you have the bar high enough then small bits of income fluctuation would not really be here nor there.

The baby boomer generation often think the youth are born with a sense of entitlement.
I would suggest this is an example of it being the other way around.
Both parents now need to work & its very hard to survive on one income with a family & probably impossible on minimum wage.
The reward for doing well in life is that you are comfortable in retirement & don't have to worry.
It shouldn't be in the form of an unnecessary handout.
If the money has been put aside, I wouldn't have a problem with it but it hasn't so its current tax payers footing the bill.
This is the great thing with Kiwi Saver, where the younger generation will fund at least partially their own retirement.
But I assume Labour don't get any credit for implementing that either or the Cullen Fund.

[Daytr]

Put it another way.
Some have suggested moving the retirement age to 68.
That's very tough on those who work physically for a living.
Would it be better to pay the pension to only those who need it & leave it at 65 or raise everyone's entitlement age to 68?

[Bjauck]

Put it another way.
Some have suggested moving the retirement age to 68.
That's very tough on those who work physically for a living.
Would it be better to pay the pension to only those who need it & leave it at 65 or raise everyone's entitlement age to 68?

Good point...shortly after the old age pension was introduced the age of eligibility was lowered for the reason that manual labourers needed to retire at an earlier age. To retain an early retirement age, we could make the ages of 65-72 subject to a means test;thereafter removing the test.

[macduffy]

Good point...shortly after the old age pension was introduced the age of eligibility was lowered for the reason that manual labourers needed to retire at an earlier age. To retain an early retirement age, we could make the ages of 65-72 subject to a means test;thereafter removing the test.

Not a bad idea, Bj, but I doubt if any politician would have the bottle to put it to the electorate.

[elZorro]

Good point...shortly after the old age pension was introduced the age of eligibility was lowered for the reason that manual labourers needed to retire at an earlier age. To retain an early retirement age, we could make the ages of 65-72 subject to a means test;thereafter removing the test.

Yes, some sort of a staged super would be fine for those who are well-off already. As long as they played ball.

Here's an excerpt from parliament from a few days ago about various matters, National's stories starting to unwind. I never liked Michelle Boag.

http://parliamenttoday.co.nz/podcast...gate-rolls-on/