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myles
15-05-2018, 06:40 PM
Are you sure it's account based? Could it be the display size you are using? If you reduce the size of the display (i.e. not full screen or mobile/tablet display), parts of the interface disappear due to lack of space - standard Ruby on Rails dynamic interface thing I think.

Vagabond47
16-05-2018, 09:08 AM
Are you sure it's account based? Could it be the display size you are using? If you reduce the size of the display (i.e. not full screen or mobile/tablet display), parts of the interface disappear due to lack of space - standard Ruby on Rails dynamic interface thing I think.


This, always visible on desktop, never see it on phone.

alundracloud
16-05-2018, 10:04 AM
This, always visible on desktop, never see it on phone.

I see it on one account, and not on the other- using the same laptop, same browser etc. Always found it strange it would show on one account and not the other.

Could the display settings be different for each account, and therefore what I "think" is account based is in actual fact display based (just the accounts have different display settings?)

darrenc
16-05-2018, 11:08 AM
Are you sure it's account based? Could it be the display size you are using? If you reduce the size of the display (i.e. not full screen or mobile/tablet display), parts of the interface disappear due to lack of space - standard Ruby on Rails dynamic interface thing I think.

I'm full screen on both - 1920x1080

joker
16-05-2018, 11:25 AM
I'm full screen on both - 1920x1080
I've never seen it on my account - I have a company account rather than a personal account. I wonder if that makes a difference?

alundracloud
16-05-2018, 12:22 PM
I've never seen it on my account - I have a company account rather than a personal account. I wonder if that makes a difference?

FWIW- on my 'personal' account, I see it. And my company account, I don't.

darrenc
16-05-2018, 12:27 PM
I've never seen it on my account - I have a company account rather than a personal account. I wonder if that makes a difference?

Good point. That is the only difference between my accounts, too. I wonder why that would make a difference.

darrenc
16-05-2018, 02:32 PM
9672
LAI-00130176

Purpose: Household Items

Borrower comments: This loan will enable me to free up some finances to start an online marketing business. This is my first time as a business owner and I'm really looking forward to launching it and making it successful. Lots of time and research has gone into this.

Doesn't Harmoney frigging check this? This is why I don't do auto invest.

joker
16-05-2018, 03:04 PM
9672
LAI-00130176

Purpose: Household Items

Borrower comments: This loan will enable me to free up some finances to start an online marketing business. This is my first time as a business owner and I'm really looking forward to launching it and making it successful. Lots of time and research has gone into this.

Doesn't Harmoney frigging check this? This is why I don't do auto invest.

I guess in the end it doesn't matter - the borrowers can write any story they want and it's impossible for anyone to check it out. In the case of the loan you refer to, she could have said nothing at all or instead lied about the loan's purpose. What concerns me more is the outrageous income claims that some loans have - people earning $15k after tax per month and needing to borrow $10k @ 20%+ for a holiday. Then they default with no chance of any recovery. How does that happen?

Cool Bear
16-05-2018, 03:40 PM
FWIW- on my 'personal' account, I see it. And my company account, I don't.
same here. it appears in my personal account but not in the company one.

joker
17-05-2018, 07:56 AM
Dying to go on holiday...?9673
Hard to see why it's only worth 7.99% interest.

Investor
17-05-2018, 08:14 AM
Dying to go on holiday...?9673
Hard to see why it's only worth 7.99% interest.

Loan purpose: Funeral Expenses
Description: says they're going on holiday..

myles
17-05-2018, 08:45 AM
I suspect these anomalies are due to the loan being re-written i.e. it was probably a holiday expense loan that has been re-written to include funeral expenses or the other way round?

Investor
17-05-2018, 09:09 AM
I suspect these anomalies are due to the loan being re-written i.e. it was probably a holiday expense loan that has been re-written to include funeral expenses or the other way round?

Yeah you're probably correct. I'm just poking fun at it, I don't have any serious complaints about Harmoney.

I know this has been discussed previously but does anyone have any updated input about Payment Protect? I think that the investor only receives the full premium once a loan is fully repaid at maturity, so it may take years to see if it was worthwhile. So far I've lost more to the net effect of payment protect payment waivers/lender rebates than I have from defaults. I'm now avoiding these loans after previously deciding to invest in them to avoid missing opportunities to invest.

RMJH
17-05-2018, 12:02 PM
Yeah you're probably correct. I'm just poking fun at it, I don't have any serious complaints about Harmoney.

I know this has been discussed previously but does anyone have any updated input about Payment Protect? I think that the investor only receives the full premium once a loan is fully repaid at maturity, so it may take years to see if it was worthwhile. So far I've lost more to the net effect of payment protect payment waivers/lender rebates than I have from defaults. I'm now avoiding these loans after previously deciding to invest in them to avoid missing opportunities to invest.
If we had the tax certificates we could work out the net PP result for the last year. I must admit I don't even know what the dashboard figures actually represent or how to calculate a running total of net PP result!

myles
17-05-2018, 01:39 PM
I know this has been discussed previously but does anyone have any updated input about Payment Protect? I think that the investor only receives the full premium once a loan is fully repaid at maturity, so it may take years to see if it was worthwhile. So far I've lost more to the net effect of payment protect payment waivers/lender rebates than I have from defaults. I'm now avoiding these loans after previously deciding to invest in them to avoid missing opportunities to invest.

I suspect the provided figures in the 'My Dashboard' may be a bit confusing. My rough interpretation:

Protect Rebates (Lender): The amount of PP rebate paid to lender at this point in time.
Protect Rebates (Borrower): The amount of PP rebated due to early repayment - this is not a loss, this is balancing the Outstanding Principal which is inflated when the PP is taken out.
Principal waived: This is a loss due to a payment not being made.

When a PP is taken out, the lenders Outstanding Principal value is inflated above the value of the loan - this results in a higher gross interest return which, combined with the PP payment by the borrower throughout the loan, gives the benefit. I assume the PP 15%pa management fee is included in the Service / Lender fees...

It is difficult to put in words - have a look at the examples Harmoney provide which may help?

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/payment-protect/lenders

Added: The 'Premium' does not get paid at the end of the loan - PP is paid throughout the loan. However, rebates are paid at early termination of the loan.

beacon
18-05-2018, 06:04 AM
Payment Protect? So far I've lost more to the net effect of payment protect payment waivers/lender rebates than I have from defaults. I'm now avoiding these loans after previously deciding to invest in them to avoid missing opportunities to invest.

PP is a complicated product, designed to increase Harmoney revenue substantially (at the cost of lender returns, due to early repaid). I have observed that PP loans are also much more likely to repay early than others. Harmoney have not cared to published examples of tax treatment of PP loans and affect of early repayment on PP loans, even though those scenarios have been worked out. There must be good (for Harmoney) reasons why those examples haven't seen sunlight to date...

JeremyALD
18-05-2018, 07:17 AM
Dying to go on holiday...?9673
Hard to see why it's only worth 7.99% interest.

Also borrowing $70k!!

permutation
18-05-2018, 08:37 AM
... I must admit I don't even know what the dashboard figures actually represent or how to calculate a running total of net PP result!

As I understand it, the PP running amount can be seen on the Account Summary page as follows:


(Borrower Principal amount ) - (Loan Investments funded) - (Protect Rebates Borrower) + (Protect Rebates Lender) = Current Running $Value

The "Lender Rebate" is the realized amount, crystallized due to a rewrite or early repayment.

As the loan heads towards full term, more and more of the P/P fee becomes a credit to the Lender.

icyfire
18-05-2018, 08:43 AM
Borrower making almost $10k a month after tax needs $17k to go on holiday. Just hard to believe the monthly income
9680

myles
18-05-2018, 09:08 AM
PP is a complicated product, designed to increase Harmoney revenue substantially (at the cost of lender returns, due to early repaid). I have observed that PP loans are also much more likely to repay early than others. Harmoney have not cared to published examples of tax treatment of PP loans and affect of early repayment on PP loans, even though those scenarios have been worked out. There must be good (for Harmoney) reasons why those examples haven't seen sunlight to date...

Personally I disagree - at an individual loan level PP isn't all that complicated.

The Lender receives a pro rata rebate on the 15% Management fee on any early termination i.e. rewrite, early payout, charge off, full waiver, of the loan. On a rewrite the 20% sales commission is also rebated pro rata, but not on any other termination - I believe this is fair as Harmoney have to manage PP (they do have to make some money too, right?).

So it is only on an early payout, charge off, full waiver of a loan where the 20% sales commission is 'lost' for the remaining portion of the loan (which will not be 100%). In a nutshell, any loan that goes past 20% of it's term should have a positive return (actually more likely 10-15% as PP payments are a positive income and additional interest is gained). This of course doesn't consider waivers.

To put this in context - for my investment of $100,000 for over 12 months, I have a total of $8.72 principal waived. The bulk of my loans exceed 10-15% of their term.

I agree PP is complicated when you look at it at a portfolio level.

humvee
18-05-2018, 09:13 AM
Harmoney only have to Sunday to provide the tax certificates

"Whichever form you use, you must give this information to the recipient by:

20 May (for an end-of-year notice), or
the 20th of the following month if you are ceasing to be a payer, or
within 20 days of when a recipient requests it (in any other case)."

http://www.ird.govt.nz/rwt/deducting/requirements/rwt-issuing-certificates.html

Also does this wording mean that if we make a request for the certificate on the 10th of April that they would have to provide it by the 30th of April? instead of 20th of May?

Cool Bear
18-05-2018, 09:38 AM
I suspect the provided figures in the 'My Dashboard' may be a bit confusing. My rough interpretation:

Protect Rebates (Lender): The amount of PP rebate paid to lender at this point in time.
Protect Rebates (Borrower): The amount of PP rebated due to early repayment - this is not a loss, this is balancing the Outstanding Principal which is inflated when the PP is taken out.
Principal waived: This is a loss due to a payment not being made.

When a PP is taken out, the lenders Outstanding Principal value is inflated above the value of the loan - this results in a higher gross interest return which, combined with the PP payment by the borrower throughout the loan, gives the benefit. I assume the PP 15%pa management fee is included in the Service / Lender fees...

It is difficult to put in words - have a look at the examples Harmoney provide which may help?

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/payment-protect/lenders

Added: The 'Premium' does not get paid at the end of the loan - PP is paid throughout the loan. However, rebates are paid at early termination of the loan.

Protect Rebates (Lender): This is the amount of PP rebate paid back to you as the investor for early settlements (repayments) of the loans - so you gain this amount.
Protect Rebates (Borrower): The is the amount of PP rebated to the borrower for early repayment and it comes from your account so it is a LOSS.
Principal waived: This is a loss due to a payment not being made. (this is correct)

For the three items above, I have lost about $2400 so far.

Cool Bear
18-05-2018, 09:49 AM
Protect Rebates (Lender): This is the amount of PP rebate paid back to you as the investor for early settlements (repayments) of the loans - so you gain this amount.
Protect Rebates (Borrower): The is the amount of PP rebated to the borrower for early repayment and it comes from your account so it is a LOSS.
Principal waived: This is a loss due to a payment not being made. (this is correct)

For the three items above, I have lost about $2400 so far.

There are pluses:

Due to the increase in the principal outstanding from PP, I expect to reap $000s if the PP loans live out their full terms and the borrowers do not fall into hard times.

Part of the these extras are already paid to me with the normal monthly/weekly repayments by the borrowers for the PP loans (and this is reported in the tax statement)

I will also get interest on the PP portion of higher outstanding principal in the monthly/weekly repayments (this is not in the tax statement and is too tedious to calculate)

So, overall I do believe HM's prediction that PP will add about 1% to our returns compared to non PP loans. Of course, HM will get more than us for every PP loans we sign up for but then so long as it benefits us in the end, all is good.

myles
18-05-2018, 10:05 AM
Just so the numbers I gave before are meaningful - approximately 25% of my loans have Payment Protect.

I think my use of 'not a loss' before is just semantics, the key was the word 'rebalancing'.

RMJH
18-05-2018, 12:25 PM
As I understand it, the PP running amount can be seen on the Account Summary page as follows:


(Borrower Principal amount ) - (Loan Investments funded) - (Protect Rebates Borrower) + (Protect Rebates Lender) = Current Running $Value

The "Lender Rebate" is the realized amount, crystallized due to a rewrite or early repayment.

As the loan heads towards full term, more and more of the P/P fee becomes a credit to the Lender.


Thanks. My total is $4356 which seems very high though I guess some of that will never be earned due to early repayment.

Saamee
18-05-2018, 02:45 PM
RWT Tax Certificates are now available Online....

Cool Bear
18-05-2018, 03:58 PM
RWT Tax Certificates are now available Online....
thanks Saamee.
coolbear

777
19-05-2018, 12:58 PM
For the record.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/104038718/disputed-harmoney-charge-a-credit-fee-court-says

icyfire
19-05-2018, 01:49 PM
More publicity for HM

Investor
19-05-2018, 05:45 PM
For the record.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/104038718/disputed-harmoney-charge-a-credit-fee-court-says

It was clear from day one it was a credit fee. Only a matter of time..

RMJH
19-05-2018, 06:35 PM
It was clear from day one it was a credit fee. Only a matter of time..
..before our fees go up! Maybe those rate rises were in anticipation?

IntheRearWithTheGear
20-05-2018, 01:52 PM
Can anybody see any impact to us as lenders from the "credit fee" but not a credit fee fallout ? could this be a dinosaur ending event / or biz as usual type thing.

leesal
20-05-2018, 03:58 PM
Very few loans coming through over the past week, nothing this weekend. Is something up?
ActivityLAST 24 HRS 0NEW LOANS $0FULLY FUNDED LOAN AMOUNT

whitt
20-05-2018, 05:45 PM
Guys check your auto lend is still enabled.
It appears several weeks ago Harmoney made some changes to system and requires to re-enable the autolend if they had been using it.

The reminder was sent by Harmoney via email but some users might have not enabled it back on.

RMJH
20-05-2018, 07:04 PM
Auto lend is not the issue. I wonder if there will be a hiatus whilst they decide how to proceed. Don't want to be a scaremonger but anyone have an informed view of where to from here? Could the worst case be that they might have accrued a large liability if the fees were not supportable?

myles
20-05-2018, 07:51 PM
Personally I wouldn't get too excited about this just yet. There are plenty of credit card 'lenders' charging well in excess of $60 every 6 months for the privilege. Even on a 3 year loan that works out to be $360...what is Harmoney charging? Is it unreasonable?

Other Peer to Peer lenders are charging a similar rate +/-, so it may be seen as an industry standard/acceptable fee. Still a ways to go I think. Who would decide what a 'reasonable fee' should be?

If the current fee was seen to be unreasonable, only the difference would likely have to be paid back and I doubt it would take much for Harmoney to re-jig it's fee structure to achieve the same result as it is now and continue on (though these constant fee/rate changes do undermine confidence in the platform to some extent).

The Commerce Commission have a lot to answer for as they are the ones who have effectively created the problem by not getting involved in the beginning.

RMJH
20-05-2018, 08:45 PM
Indeed there has hardly been much official will to allow P2P to prosper....

icyfire
20-05-2018, 09:36 PM
Since the borrower loan application process is largely automated HM will now need to lower their establishment fee quite a bit. Hopefully their business model is still viable and will be able to overcome this setback.

linden
20-05-2018, 10:11 PM
Up till 8th May '18 Harmoney charged a $500 "Platform Fee" this changed on the 8th to an "Establishment Fee" of $450, I would say that they knew this outcome well before it hit the press and the recent changes were done in response to it. I doubt there will be much change from our end as lenders, possibly some of the benefit from the recent interest rate increase will be eaten up with an increase in lending fees? I agree with you, nothing to get excited about, I think if anything - more PR for Harmoney is good for all of us. I am very confident in the platform and the people behind it and truely believe that peer-to-peer platforms will grow phenomenally over the next few years, once the government regulators get their head around a new concept of lending.

Stevecp
21-05-2018, 06:53 AM
Since May 8th my autolend has taken a vastly reduced number of loans. I have changed no settings, merely reenabled autolend.

Anyone else seeing a massive drop in loans available?

beacon
21-05-2018, 07:05 AM
Since May 8th my autolend has taken a vastly reduced number of loans. I have changed no settings, merely reenabled autolend.

Anyone else seeing a massive drop in loans available?

Yes, because the borrowers are adjusting to their rate changes, while little lenders giving way to a new wholesale lender. Should come right soon...:)

beacon
21-05-2018, 07:09 AM
I doubt there will be much change from our end as lenders, possibly some of the benefit from the recent interest rate increase will be eaten up with an increase in lending fees?

I'll second your first observation, until the second part of your consideration eventuates. If it does, it will begin to impact Harmoney market share seriously

Bjauck
23-05-2018, 02:26 PM
Indeed there has hardly been much official will to allow P2P to prosper....

True Indeed and Surprising considering the domination of Overseas owned enterprises in the Financial sector and surprising since there has been concern about the reliance of NZ households on investment in residential real estate as opposed to financial investment.

RMJH
23-05-2018, 03:23 PM
True Indeed and Surprising considering the domination of Overseas owned enterprises in the Financial sector and surprising since there has been concern about the reliance of NZ households on investment in residential real estate as opposed to financial investment.
Yep, not to mention productivity gains in banking, investment and insurance.

Art
24-05-2018, 05:48 PM
Is it just me, or have the number of new loans available to invest in plummeted since the t&c's were changed?

Vagabond47
24-05-2018, 08:54 PM
Is it just me, or have the number of new loans available to invest in plummeted since the t&c's were changed?

Yep, it used to be $800k to $1m a day of loans in the marketplace. The question is whether this is due to less loan applications in total (seasonal?) Or is it because harmoney itself is now a wholesale investor and less loans are making it to the retail marketplace after the institutional investors get their share.

Is it known whether the figure we see is just the retail market, or total loans?

whitt
24-05-2018, 09:50 PM
Either way my auto lend hasn't picked up any loans for nearly a month now and my balance is growing unfunded

darrenc
25-05-2018, 09:09 AM
I have the site open most of the day and I'm struggling to find enough decent loans to stop my balance growing. I'm wondering whether or not to start putting it into something else, but my LC account is in a similar situation.

alundracloud
25-05-2018, 09:38 AM
Yep, it used to be $800k to $1m a day of loans in the marketplace. The question is whether this is due to less loan applications in total (seasonal?) Or is it because harmoney itself is now a wholesale investor and less loans are making it to the retail marketplace after the institutional investors get their share.

Is it known whether the figure we see is just the retail market, or total loans?

I've definitely noticed (and by the comments here so have others) a reduced number of loans hitting the marketplace over the past couple of weeks. Looking at their marketplace statistics page- there were only 110 loans last week, by far the lowest in a week in the last 5 months (next lowest is 161). I think this number also includes wholesale funds, but I could be wrong.....





Date
Volume (Total)
Number (Total)
Volume (Last Week)
Number (Last Week)


24/12/2017
664,962,900
37,441




31/12/2017
668,759,956
37,612
3,797,056
171


7/01/2018
676,267,250
37,908
7,507,294
296


14/01/2018
682,249,975
38,174
5,982,725
266


21/01/2018
688,114,575
38,424
5,864,600
250


28/01/2018
693,840,025
38,656
5,725,450
232


4/02/2018
698,552,500
38,850
4,712,475
194


11/02/2018
704,278,200
39,084
5,725,700
234


18/02/2018
711,820,825
39,350
7,542,625
266


25/02/2018
717,855,925
39,587
6,035,100
237


4/03/2018
724,578,575
39,849
6,722,650
262


11/03/2018
730,690,100
40,091
6,111,525
242


18/03/2018
736,759,575
40,316
6,069,475
225


25/03/2018
740,946,625
40,477
4,187,050
161


1/04/2018
745,804,325
40,658
4,857,700
181


8/04/2018
749,866,450
40,827
4,062,125
169


15/04/2018
754,753,900
41,014
4,887,450
187


22/04/2018
760,185,625
41,222
5,431,725
208


29/04/2018
765,715,450
41,432
5,529,825
210


6/05/2018
770,994,125
41,652
5,278,675
220


13/05/2018
775,316,125
41,841
4,322,000
189


20/05/2018
778,427,475
41,951
3,111,350
110

beacon
28-05-2018, 07:14 AM
Goldman Sachs developed and launched a digital only consumer loan product, Marcus, which lent US$1b within the 12 months in the US. https://www.marcus.com/us/en

CageyB
28-05-2018, 09:52 AM
I have the site open most of the day and I'm struggling to find enough decent loans to stop my balance growing. I'm wondering whether or not to start putting it into something else, but my LC account is in a similar situation.

Anyone have any information on whether this is seasonal? I seem to recall a similar problem this time last year. Loans do seem to increase in the months leading up to the holidays, is this just a seasonal lull?

joker
28-05-2018, 02:56 PM
Anyone have any information on whether this is seasonal? I seem to recall a similar problem this time last year. Loans do seem to increase in the months leading up to the holidays, is this just a seasonal lull?
Haven't been in long enough to know if it's seasonal but like you I'm struggling to lend much. Autolend was missing loans that fit my criteria so I asked Harmoney why, and was told that it was to do with the 20% cap on autolend and the ratio of funds available vs outstanding principal (used by Harmoney to select priority [higher ratio gets priority]). My ratio is nearly 10% which is high I believe, so this tends to suggest that most lenders are in the same boat. I also note that some loans are taken down well before they reach 100% which I suspect indicates Harmoney/Heartland etc. are grabbing them.
Autolend statistics show that we're going through a very low phase (refer attached screenshot). The question is why?
9701

whitt
28-05-2018, 08:38 PM
Autolend statistics show that we're going through a very low phase (refer attached screenshot). The question is why?
9701

The autolend stats have plummeted forum user "joker" screenshot for Harmoneys data proves this too.

Combine this with the fact its hard to invest with LC it seems the p2p platforms dont want our money anymore. Our money was good enough during both companies growth phase but now they are established it feels the are pushing private public investor out in favour of the big boys.

joker
29-05-2018, 08:18 AM
The autolend stats have plummeted forum user "joker" screenshot for Harmoneys data proves this too.

Combine this with the fact its hard to invest with LC it seems the p2p platforms dont want our money anymore. Our money was good enough during both companies growth phase but now they are established it feels the are pushing private public investor out in favour of the big boys.
In my autolend screnshot there is a comment from Harmoney that"...Harmoney actively manages the marketplace." I suspect this means that they and the big boys take first preference over us little investors?

alundracloud
29-05-2018, 09:21 AM
Only 98 loans were filled on the market place last week ($2.3 million).

This contrasts with an average of 209 loans per week since 24th December '17 (and $5.3 million). Getting very difficult to get money away in Harmoney at the moment- Hopefully things pick up....

joker
29-05-2018, 10:40 AM
Only 98 loans were filled on the market place last week ($2.3 million).

This contrasts with an average of 209 loans per week since 24th December '17 (and $5.3 million). Getting very difficult to get money away in Harmoney at the moment- Hopefully things pick up....

Hey Alun, where abouts do you find this data on the Harmoney website? I can't locate it on the Marketplace Statistics page...

RMJH
29-05-2018, 12:03 PM
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/lender-blog/auto-lend-seasonality

alundracloud
29-05-2018, 12:59 PM
Hey Alun, where abouts do you find this data on the Harmoney website? I can't locate it on the Marketplace Statistics page...

Hi Joker,
On the Marketplace Statistics page, the very first graph on the page, "Volume Over Time". If you hover your cursor on the graph, a pop-up displays showing the date, Loan Volume ($), and Loan Volume (N). It's a moving total, so I just minus the 'previous week', from 'current week' to calculate. It updates weekly, the most recent update being 27 May 2018. The table I posted in this thread (#3300, on page 220) I got those numbers just moving my cursor over the graph and writing the numbers into an excel spread sheet.

slingy
29-05-2018, 02:35 PM
I got those numbers just moving my cursor over the graph and writing the numbers into an excel spread sheet.

If you'd like an easy way to do it... the API provides a json file of all the values here: https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/public/statistics/investor/volume-over-time

Using your favourite json to csv converter gives you a csv you can paste into excel: https://json-csv.com/?u=https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/public/statistics/investor/volume-over-time

leesal
29-05-2018, 08:29 PM
Interesting Alundra. Heres a comparison of weekly loans for this week in 2017 and 2018

2017
$4,009,175 leant
258 loans

2018
$1,092,400 leant
41 loans

For one reason or another, significantly less loans hitting the market. And doesn't appear to be seasonality.

beacon
30-05-2018, 06:17 AM
For one reason or another, significantly less loans hitting the market. And doesn't appear to be seasonality.

I'll second that.

IntheRearWithTheGear
30-05-2018, 07:10 AM
Maybe its other players sucking up the inventory of borrowers. Maybe that dancing hippo advert is just too cute, there are a few other ads as well, maybe the loan rates are not as cheap as some as the other offerings. I havnt seen an advert from harmoney for awhile now.

darrenc
30-05-2018, 10:13 AM
Has anyone actually called them and asked?

beacon
30-05-2018, 10:17 AM
Maybe its other players sucking up the inventory of borrowers. Maybe that dancing hippo advert is just too cute, there are a few other ads as well, maybe the loan rates are not as cheap as some as the other offerings. I havnt seen an advert from harmoney for awhile now.

Maybe, but I'm still receiving weekly newsletters (advertorials) to borrowers - despite hitting unsubscribe a few times... :)

RMJH
30-05-2018, 10:49 AM
LAI*00130912 E3 offered at 23.99%?

beacon
30-05-2018, 12:29 PM
LAI*00130912 E3 offered at 23.99%?


That's an E1 at the old rate.

RMJH
30-05-2018, 01:29 PM
That's an E1 at the old rate.
Must be an old application. Jeepers, seems I might need glasses these days!

icyfire
31-05-2018, 01:09 PM
Lender website review report from the Commerce Commission - http://www.comcom.govt.nz/the-commission/consumer-reports/lender-website-review-report/

darrenc
01-06-2018, 08:43 AM
8 new loans worth $165k in the last 24 hours. Looks like we've been shut down.

Vagabond47
01-06-2018, 08:51 AM
Yep, if this continues i'll be setting up auto-withdraw.

leesal
01-06-2018, 03:10 PM
I'd like to see an update on the funding mix graph.

as a cynical question (don't know either way) What would prevent HM from holding back certain loans, for exclusive wholesale consumption; and just channel a token amount through retail?

RMJH
01-06-2018, 04:10 PM
I'd like to see an update on the funding mix graph.

as a cynical question (don't know either way) What would prevent HM from holding back certain loans, for exclusive wholesale consumption; and just channel a token amount through retail?
There used to be a policy of no cherry picking for wholesale investors. I can't find reference to it now though it could still be there somewhere....

myles
01-06-2018, 04:21 PM
What would prevent HM from holding back certain loans, for exclusive wholesale consumption; and just channel a token amount through retail?

The agreement that they currently have with us as investors. Full detail in the following, but the most relevant portion quoted below.

Source: https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Legal-Documents-NZ/harmoney-investor-disclosure-statement-effective-10-april-2018.pdf

Harmoney’s Loan Allocation Policy

Harmoney’s loan allocation policy is designed to allocate loans between the wholesale and retail investor marketplaces on a fair, reasonable and equitable basis to ensure that each marketplace receives a representation of the overall risk grade of Borrowers approved to submit their loan (Loan Allocation Policy).

Harmoney sets a loan allocation percentage for each marketplace. Harmoney does not select specific loans to be allocated to either marketplace. Harmoney may, from time to time where it receives high loan application volumes or a higher proportion of funds from wholesale or retail Investors, allocate a greater proportion of loans to be funded from either the Peer-to-Peer Service or Wholesale Funding Model. Harmoney’s Loan Allocation Policy seeks to ensure that over time there is a representative sample of loan applications available in each marketplace.

Vagabond47
01-06-2018, 06:28 PM
As it says quite clearly there,


Harmoney may, from time to time .... allocate a greater proportion of loans to be funded from either the Peer-to-Peer Service or Wholesale Funding Model.


So they randomly select which loans go to which lender group to keep the risk profile spread fair, but the percentage can be dialed to 90% wholesale/institutional if they receive lots of wholesale funding (like harmoney themselves becoming wholesale investors?) Which we all agreed to with the new T&Cs a while back.

So this might be temporary while harmoney lends out all its spare capital. At about $1/2 million a day drop in p2p marketplace lending how much money is Harmoney putting in the market itself?

leesal
02-06-2018, 12:16 AM
Harmoney’s Loan Allocation Policy seeks to ensure that over time there is a representative sample of loan applications available in each marketplace.
Did I read that right?

Previously wholesale and retail drew from the same pool, at Approx 40 loans per day. Us retail investors autolended, selected the bits we wanted and the wholesalers took up the remainder.

Now the Wholesale pool is completely separated from the Retail pool. Each getting their own select allocation. Which explains why we only get 7-10 daily (and some loans hang around for longer).

Take that one step further, retail by design will achieve no better then platform. Currently 10%? Even worse, if loans are left on the table, we the retail pool gets dialled back even further. Would gladly be told I'm wrong! :(

RMJH
02-06-2018, 07:28 AM
I think it is too soon to form any conclusions. Wholesale fees are, or at least were, higher and probably a lesser administrative burden so we are actually lucky to get access to this market at all. Will be interesting to see how Harmoney's lending returns get included in the RAR.

leesal
02-06-2018, 07:50 AM
I think it is too soon to form any conclusions. Wholesale fees are, or at least were, higher and probably a lesser administrative burden so we are actually lucky to get access to this market at all. Will be interesting to see how Harmoney's lending returns get included in the RAR.

Harmoney accesses the wholesale market, which isn't part of P2P so wont get reflected on RAR.

Reading further Wholesalers get access to the wholesale market and P2P platform. So everything will continue much as it does, although the volume will be reduced potentially significantly depending on the allocation policy.

myles
02-06-2018, 08:45 AM
Harmoney accesses the wholesale market, which isn't part of P2P so wont get reflected on RAR.

? They are just another wholesaler, all other wholesalers are shown in the platform RAR graph (which I think is what RMJH meant), so their 'lending returns' will be reflected in the wholesale RAR and platform RAR.

leesal, it sounds like you were originally suggesting something significant has changed in the platform in relation to how wholesale and retail loans are treated? I don't think anything has changed other then a new wholesaler (Harmoney) has joined the platform.

I've not seen any clear info on why loan rates have suddenly dropped, but speculate that Harmoney have dropped a bundle of $'s in and because of their high Funds Available to Outstanding Principle ratio, might be getting the lions share at the moment, however it's never been completely clear to me if the wholesale allocation is treated this way, so I could be wrong.

leesal
02-06-2018, 09:14 AM
See Page 9 of the investor disclosure agreement (below). It suggests very clearly that the new wholesaler (Harmoney), invests on behalf of all wholesale investors, completely separate from P2P


Wholesale Investors
Harmoney uses two funding models in order to make loans to Borrowers. These are:
• the Peer-to-Peer Service, where Borrower loans are funded from investments byretail and wholesale investors through its peer-to peer marketplace; and
• a wholesale funding model, where Borrower loans are funded from investments bywholesale investors (Wholesale Funding Model).

Wholesale Investors under the Peer-to-Peer Service
Harmoney may approve wholesale Investors to invest in loans through the Harmoney Peerto-PeerService................

Wholesale Investors under the Wholesale Funding Model
Under the Wholesale Funding Model, loans are made by Harmoney Nominee Limited (theNominee), which acts as a bare trustee for all of the wholesale Investors who choose to fund Page 10Harmoney Disclosure Statement (2018)loans through the Nominee. The Wholesale Funding Model is not available for retail investorsand is separate and distinct from the Peer-to-Peer Service described in this DisclosureStatement.Loans are allocated for funding via funds sourced from the Wholesale Funding Model inaccordance with Harmoney’s Loan Allocation Policy described below. This means that acertain percentage of loans will be randomly allocated for funding from that source.

leesal
02-06-2018, 09:39 AM
On the other hand HM held 8m in cash as of Mar17.

Considering it burned through 4m last year (funded in whole by share issuance), HM could only invest with safety if it had guaranteed access to capital.

myles
02-06-2018, 09:41 AM
See Page 9 of the investor disclosure agreement (below). It suggests very clearly that the new wholesaler (Harmoney), invests on behalf of all wholesale investors, completely separate from P2P

That has not changed? It means retail investors cannot invest as a wholesaler - there are quite different requirements - appropriate I think?

XxOrooxX
02-06-2018, 10:13 AM
I've already taken excess funds out of the platform.

I've started to think about whether our calculated RARs are a true representation of the return were getting. Calculated RAR is the sum of the interests paid less fees and dishonored loans projected for the year. But your sum will include interest from recently funded loans that have a probability of default not taken into account in the annual projection. Essentially if you were to stop funding new loans and let your funded loans run their course you can probably expect a lower return than your calculated RAR.

Thoughts?

leesal
02-06-2018, 10:24 AM
The latest disclosure statement is set out much more exacting then the 16 March 2018 investor agreement, which is rather vague on wholesale and no mention of distinct marketplaces and random allocations.

IF HM is using its own 8m? cashpile - was there any mention which marketplace they'd access?

Either way according to the T&C's HM is free to change around the allocations between wholesale and P2P. If its only investing its 8m (and trimming back retail while it does so) , it should take 3 months to push it all through.

Investor
02-06-2018, 11:36 AM
I've already taken excess funds out of the platform.

I've started to think about whether our calculated RARs are a true representation of the return were getting. Calculated RAR is the sum of the interests paid less fees and dishonored loans projected for the year. But your sum will include interest from recently funded loans that have a probability of default not taken into account in the annual projection. Essentially if you were to stop funding new loans and let your funded loans run their course you can probably expect a lower return than your calculated RAR.

Thoughts?

They provide RAR as a historical result which may not be indicative of your future return. They are not making any promises about your future returns.

myles
02-06-2018, 12:25 PM
IF HM is using its own 8m? cashpile - was there any mention which marketplace they'd access?

They are a wholesale investor.

RMJH
02-06-2018, 01:05 PM
Harmoney accesses the wholesale market, which isn't part of P2P so wont get reflected on RAR.

Reading further Wholesalers get access to the wholesale market and P2P platform. So everything will continue much as it does, although the volume will be reduced potentially significantly depending on the allocation policy.
Having not read the latest disclosure statements I was assuming that Harmoney would be treated just like other wholesale lenders on the platform who are included in RAR (but clearly with no fees the returns would be higher). However I think you are suggesting that there is now effectively another platform for just wholesale (possibly with continued presence on the P2P platform being loan run-out). This would make me a little uneasy if they don't report the results of the new wholesale platform form too as we have no check on the fairness of loan allocations. It should be noted that one of the major shareholders is also a wholesale client so maybe they are moving to direct investment to improve returns?

myles
02-06-2018, 01:13 PM
Below is the relevant section from the email Harmoney sent out (4 May is when I received it):

Lender documentation:
The Investor Agreement (http://go2.harmoney.com/f00kQ0Z0Sp00GS3LL4XxR08) and Disclosure Statement (http://go2.harmoney.com/uq4000SS8Z0Q0y03kRLLXG0) have been updated to reflect a new funding structure that allows Harmoney to invest in loans as another wholesale lender, putting its capital at risk just like you. This lending will be subject to the same controls as other wholesale lenders as described in the Disclosure Statement (http://go2.harmoney.com/uq4000SS8Z0Q0y03kRLLXG0). The Privacy Policy (http://go2.harmoney.com/XQZ0RzS04000Xk8SL03GLr0)is also being updated. You can review these agreements via the corresponding links or the first time you enter the marketplace in your lender account from 8th May 2018.

I do not believe there is 'another platform for just wholesale' - little has changed in respect to the platform, changes/additions have been made to various documents to allow Harmoney to invest in the platform. I suspect that the structure that they set up will see them pay fees etc. the same as all other wholesale lenders - it is a separate 'entity' that is investing so cannot be seen to be at an advantage - the whole point of all the document changes...

myles
03-06-2018, 01:05 PM
I've reached another milestone in the last few days:

Recoveries $2.13

My recoveries have exceeded one dollar!!! :ohmy:

leesal
03-06-2018, 10:28 PM
When Borrowers apply for a loan on Harmoney’s website they are automatically allocated to be funded through either the Peer-to-Peer Service or the Wholesale Funding Model.

I hope you are right Myles. I'll reserve judgement, and hopefully the availability of loans will return to previous levels :)

No problem with recoveries trickling through, better then nothing! How are your defaults looking as a % of interest?

myles
04-06-2018, 01:36 AM
How are your defaults looking as a % of interest?

Still 10%'ish, but I've never seen the point of this comparison. If an investor invests in higher risk loans, this value will be high but the return will also likely be high - an investor who invests in low risk loans should have a low value, but a corresponding low return...e.g. if an investor only invested in loans with interest rates of say 30% and had a default to interest % of 30%, they would be doing very well. It's not a comparative value.

I think the Harmoney team have all wandered of skiing for a few days and everything will be back to normal soon........

whitt
04-06-2018, 05:12 AM
Check out the platform stats for auto lend volume.

Last couple of days it was only 3k and 1k each day. Compare that to a few months back when it was 50k to 100k per day.

There's something seriously wrong at Harmoney

RMJH
04-06-2018, 08:01 AM
Still 10%'ish, but I've never seen the point of this comparison. If an investor invests in higher risk loans, this value will be high but the return will also likely be high - an investor who invests in low risk loans should have a low value, but a corresponding low return...e.g. if an investor only invested in loans with interest rates of say 30% and had a default to interest % of 30%, they would be doing very well. It's not a comparative value.

I think the Harmoney team have all wandered of skiing for a few days and everything will be back to normal soon........
Yes, and similarly RAR can only be reasonably compared when you allow for the grade mix. Same with shares and gearing.
It's a holiday weekend so low listings to be expected but we do need clarification of the existence or otherwise of a parallel market.

Vagabond47
04-06-2018, 08:22 AM
Yes, and similarly RAR can only be reasonably compared when you allow for the grade mix. Same with shares and gearing.
It's a holiday weekend so low listings to be expected but we do need clarification of the existence or otherwise of a parallel market.

I think it fairly clear that Harmoney itself is just another wholesale investor. What I want clarified is why the retail volume has dropped, and when its expected to return to normal volumes. If this a couple of weeks of slow retail loans because harmoney has injected ~$8m of capital into the market that is fine, but if this is because of a lack of overall loan applications being received/approved I need to set up auto-withdraw and find a new home for my money.

RMJH
04-06-2018, 08:59 AM
I assumed "Fully funded loan amount" includes wholesale and retail ie it's the whole market. If so, the reduction in this amount wouldn't be explained by Harmoney's participation which just reduces retail market share.

slingy
04-06-2018, 11:20 PM
2018-05-30
Funded Amount:1160400
Total Amount:1321800
Unfunded Loans:3
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:45
Total Loans:48
2018-05-31
Funded Amount:873000
Total Amount:995600
Unfunded Loans:4
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:39
Total Loans:43
2018-06-01
Funded Amount:606400
Total Amount:694750
Unfunded Loans:6
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:30
Total Loans:36


2018-06-02
Funded Amount:70550
Total Amount:266675
Unfunded Loans:7
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:5
Total Loans:12
2018-06-03
Funded Amount:10450
Total Amount:223525
Unfunded Loans:6
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:1
Total Loans:7
2018-06-04
Funded Amount:5450
Total Amount:881575
Unfunded Loans:31
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:1
Total Loans:32



The last 6 days brought to you by the API.
So the loan volume is still there we retail lenders just don't get to see them.
It also seems that of almost none of today's loans were released onto the marketplace.

beacon
05-06-2018, 06:29 AM
So the loan volume is still there we retail lenders just don't get to see them.
It also seems that of almost none of today's loans were released onto the marketplace.

Still a P2P?

RMJH
05-06-2018, 07:19 AM
Funding mix graph (which has monthly data points) hasn't been updated since October 2017.

myles
05-06-2018, 09:01 AM
Yes, and similarly RAR can only be reasonably compared when you allow for the grade mix. Same with shares and gearing.
Disagree, RAR allows comparison of portfolios and the various strategies used. It is a comparable value as it takes into account the whole investment - its one failing is that it only looks at current loans.

Bjauck
05-06-2018, 09:11 AM
Still a P2P? Good question. This plus The absence of an official tax ruling (or application for one) in relation to both lender fees and charge-offs for the small retail class of investor/lenders would indicate to me that they are more interested in the wholesale and “in business” lender side of “peers”.

777
05-06-2018, 09:15 AM
Good question. This plus The absence of an official tax ruling (or application for one) in relation to both lender fees and charge-offs for the small retail class of investor/lenders would indicate to me that they are more interested in the wholesale and “in business” lender side of “peers”.

Apply for a tax ruling if you are concerned about it. It is not Harmoney's responsibility to do it for you. Tax is your responsibility.

permutation
05-06-2018, 09:18 AM
I've reached another milestone in the last few days:

Recoveries $2.13

My recoveries have exceeded one dollar!!! :ohmy:

Do you mean Mylestone ;)

RMJH
05-06-2018, 11:07 AM
Disagree, RAR allows comparison of portfolios and the various strategies used. It is a comparable value as it takes into account the whole investment - its one failing is that it only looks at current loans.

Fair enough. Though I cannot agree. There is a continuum of risk and return. Higher return doesn't necessarily mean better. It's an optimisation problem not maximisation.

Bjauck
05-06-2018, 01:43 PM
Apply for a tax ruling if you are concerned about it. It is not Harmoney's responsibility to do it for you. Tax is your responsibility.

As a small retail investor the cost of applying for a tax ruling on charge-offs (& lender fees) could make the return (with the extra risk) from an investment in Harmoney not worth shifting any money out of big Aussie banks. The same would probably apply to other individual small retail lenders.

I think if they were keen for P2P to be truly broad-based, then all peers should have the same tax treatment for charge-offs and lender fees. That would need an industry wide official tax ruling.

Investor
05-06-2018, 03:12 PM
As a small retail investor the cost of applying for a tax ruling on charge-offs (& lender fees) could make the return (with the extra risk) from an investment in Harmoney not worth shifting any money out of big Aussie banks. The same would probably apply to other individual small retail lenders.

I think if they were keen for P2P to be truly broad-based, then all peers should have the same tax treatment for charge-offs and lender fees. That would need an industry wide official tax ruling.

Most companies providing financial assets won't provide tax advice because if they are wrong, it could be very expensive. Stop expecting to have everything handed to you.

joker
05-06-2018, 03:40 PM
Harmoney api stats for the week...


2018-05-27


784204925.0

42187



2018-06-03

784310900.0

42194




Does this mean their loan book grew by only 7 loans and $106k for the week? I assume this calculates as opening number of loans + new loans - repaid loans = closing number of loans?
Does anyone one know if this includes institutional as well as us little guys?
9714

joker
05-06-2018, 03:42 PM
2018-05-30
Funded Amount:1160400
Total Amount:1321800
Unfunded Loans:3
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:45
Total Loans:48
2018-05-31
Funded Amount:873000
Total Amount:995600
Unfunded Loans:4
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:39
Total Loans:43
2018-06-01
Funded Amount:606400
Total Amount:694750
Unfunded Loans:6
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:30
Total Loans:36


2018-06-02
Funded Amount:70550
Total Amount:266675
Unfunded Loans:7
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:5
Total Loans:12
2018-06-03
Funded Amount:10450
Total Amount:223525
Unfunded Loans:6
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:1
Total Loans:7
2018-06-04
Funded Amount:5450
Total Amount:881575
Unfunded Loans:31
Part Funded Loans:0
Fully Funded Loans:1
Total Loans:32



The last 6 days brought to you by the API.
So the loan volume is still there we retail lenders just don't get to see them.
It also seems that of almost none of today's loans were released onto the marketplace.


Harmoney api stats for the week...


2018-05-27

784204925.0
42187


2018-06-03
784310900.0
42194




Does this mean their loan book grew by only 7 loans and $106k for the week? I assume this calculates as opening number of loans + new loans - repaid loans = closing number of loans?
Does anyone one know if this includes institutional as well as us little guys?
ScreenHunt.jpg (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/attachment.php?attachmentid=9714&d=1528173495)

Bjauck
05-06-2018, 04:42 PM
Most companies providing financial assets won't provide tax advice because if they are wrong, it could be very expensive. Stop expecting to have everything handed to you. Having clarity provided by the company concerned or regulatory bodies on the tax impact of an investment in P2P is not exactly getting “everything handed to you”.

Product rulings could be provided from the IRD, which is not exactly having everything handed to you either.

Should NZ retail investors be given sufficient information to make a decision to diversify outside of home ownership and bank deposits?

As it is now, with the uncertainty whether retail investors can claim charge-offs or not, the plate is fuller for the business “peers”. Seeking IRD product ruling could result in all lenders being treated alike.

777
05-06-2018, 05:00 PM
Just go to an accountant and get his/her opinion on charge offs.

My opinion is they are capital losses and therefore not deductible as a simple investor.

myles
06-06-2018, 01:01 AM
Maybe of interest to someone:

https://idealog.co.nz/venture/2018/06/how-fuel-engine-11-rules-raising-capital-start-

RMJH
06-06-2018, 09:49 AM
Maybe of interest to someone:

https://idealog.co.nz/venture/2018/06/how-fuel-engine-11-rules-raising-capital-start-

Thanks, a good reminder that Harmoney is supported by high quality management, board, and shareholders.

Cool Bear
06-06-2018, 10:11 AM
Harmoney api stats for the week...


2018-05-27
784204925.0
42187


2018-06-03
784310900.0
42194


Does this mean their loan book grew by only 7 loans and $106k for the week? I assume this calculates as opening number of loans + new loans - repaid loans = closing number of loans?
Does anyone one know if this includes institutional as well as us little guys?
9714

The figures are total loans todate. No deduction for repaid loans. And it would include institutional investors as well. Ties in with their figures below in their market stats today (see attached).

So for that week, the TOTAL new loans was just 7 worth $106k.

slingy
06-06-2018, 01:34 PM
I'm getting different numbers:

"2018-05-27","784239575.0","42189"
"2018-06-03","785984775.0","42254"

$1,745,200 and 65 loans

Cool Bear
06-06-2018, 01:51 PM
I'm getting different numbers:

"2018-05-27","784239575.0","42189"
"2018-06-03","785984775.0","42254"

$1,745,200 and 65 loans
Agreed, I can see these from the first graph on their page. Joker, where are your figures from?

slingy
06-06-2018, 02:22 PM
It seems likely the date listed is the week starting date.

joker
06-06-2018, 03:00 PM
Agreed, I can see these from the first graph on their page. Joker, where are your figures from?
From here https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/public/statistics/investor/volume-over-time
(https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/public/statistics/investor/volume-over-time)...but yes, I now see that slingy is correct in that the date is the week starting date and thus there was only 1 day's worth of loans in that (first day of the) week. My bad!!

leesal
07-06-2018, 09:23 PM
Still 10%'ish, but I've never seen the point of this comparison. If an investor invests in higher risk loans, this value will be high but the return will also likely be high - an investor who invests in low risk loans should have a low value, but a corresponding low return...e.g. if an investor only invested in loans with interest rates of say 30% and had a default to interest % of 30%, they would be doing very well. It's not a comparative value.

I think the Harmoney team have all wandered of skiing for a few days and everything will be back to normal soon........

Yeh completely. Although platform is averaging 20% with a lower average interest rate!

Just for Kicks. Not the most useful comparative stat, as ignores the hazard curve.

Platform RAR 9.94%
Platform Fee (2.91%) (assume ave 17.5% fee)
Platform Chg (3.76%)

Platform Adj RAR 16.6%

Platform Arrears (3.8%). So potential Platform RAR of 6.14% if all Arrears go bad.


My Portfolio
RAR 14.19%
Fee (3.6)%
Chg (0.4)%
Adj RAR 18.2%

Arrears (9.3)%. Potential return 4.9%.

(Arrears taken as all outstanding principal aged beyond 1 day on order report, some of which Harmoney show as "current")

Vagabond47
08-06-2018, 10:11 AM
Just logged in to check if I had any payments come in lately. Checked the marketplace, 0 new loans in last 24 hrs.

Bjauck
08-06-2018, 10:54 AM
Yeh completely. Although platform is averaging 20% with a lower average interest rate!

Just for Kicks. Not the most useful comparative stat, as ignores the hazard curve.

Platform RAR 9.94%
Platform Fee (2.91%) (assume ave 17.5% fee)
Platform Chg (3.76%)
... Moreover, for the retail investor on the platorm, who may not be able to deduct charge-offs for tax purposes, the effective tax rate on their RAR may well be a lot higher than 33%.

myles
08-06-2018, 11:17 AM
Just logged in to check if I had any payments come in lately. Checked the marketplace, 0 new loans in last 24 hrs.
Seems to have been broken for at least the last two days i.e. showing 0 but a few loans have gone through...?

IntheRearWithTheGear
08-06-2018, 11:19 AM
Seems to have been broken for at least the last two days i.e. showing 0 but a few loans have gone through...?

I concur, i subscribed to one a1 loan last night. and watched the counter not move (remain at zero) as it progress from marketplace to funding - so i think its broken.

joker
08-06-2018, 04:07 PM
Harmoney says...

Following the recent announcement on 04 May 2018, there have been a few recent changes to loan allocations on the platform.

We now have 2 marketplaces:
1. Peer-to-Peer, where loans are funded from investments by retail and wholesale investors through our p2p marketplace; and
2. Wholesale funding, where whole loans are funded by our institutional partners.

The loans are then allocated for funding from either source in accordance with Harmoney’s Loan Allocation Policy.

Harmoney’s loan allocation policy is designed to allocate loans between the wholesale and retail investor marketplaces on a fair, reasonable and equitable basis to ensure that each marketplace receives a representation of the overall risk grade of Borrowers approved to submit their loan. For more information: https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/marketplace-management

(https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/marketplace-management) I suspect that they wish to close the gap between the retail and wholesale RARs caused by retail investors selectively investing in the better loans and leaving the riskier loans to be filled by the wholesale investors. How else can one explain the variance in RARs?

myles
08-06-2018, 04:25 PM
Following the recent announcement on 04 May 2018, there have been a few recent changes to loan allocations on the platform.

We now have 2 marketplaces:
1. Peer-to-Peer, where loans are funded from investments by retail and wholesale investors through our p2p marketplace; and
2. Wholesale funding, where whole loans are funded by our institutional partners.


Hmmm, interesting that they say that 'we now have 2 marketplaces' - the ability for wholesaler's to fund whole loans, I thought, was always available to them - suggesting that the '2 marketplaces' always existed. The ability for wholesale investors to invest in the 'p2p marketplace' is the one thing that I think may have changed i.e. that wholesalers can play in our sandbox and, I assume, pay the same fee's etc. that we do (this may or may not be new).

Where did the above come from joker?

joker
08-06-2018, 04:58 PM
Hmmm, interesting that they say that 'we now have 2 marketplaces' - the ability for wholesaler's to fund whole loans, I thought, was always available to them - suggesting that the '2 marketplaces' always existed. The ability for wholesale investors to invest in the 'p2p marketplace' is the one thing that I think may have changed i.e. that wholesalers can play in our sandbox and, I assume, pay the same fee's etc. that we do (this may or may not be new).

Where did the above come from joker?

In response to an email I sent them complaining about disparity since May between the total number of loans and the number appearing on the market place as well as the way that loans were disappearing from the marketplace when only 20% full. (Their response suggests that wholesale/institutional investors were filling them with large placements).

humvee
08-06-2018, 08:27 PM
Really Borrowing $25K for a computer?
Repayments 20% of total income and still gota pay rent in auckland!
9723

Vagabond47
08-06-2018, 09:06 PM
(https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/marketplace-management) I suspect that they wish to close the gap between the retail and wholesale RARs caused by retail investors selectively investing in the better loans and leaving the riskier loans to be filled by the wholesale investors. How else can one explain the variance in RARs?

Different fee structure for wholesale. Also, what evidence is there for retail getting first pick at the loans?
I thought a loan went to one or the other and that was the end of it.

Vagabond47
08-06-2018, 09:15 PM
Really Borrowing $25K for a computer?
Repayments 20% of total income and still gota pay rent in auckland!

I could easily build a $5k computer, add in a couple of programs I would want if i was setting up as a freelance designer and that would easily hit $25k. Unlikely to be the case here, but possible.

leesal
09-06-2018, 12:06 AM
Different fee structure for wholesale. Also, what evidence is there for retail getting first pick at the loans?
I thought a loan went to one or the other and that was the end of it.

If what Joker has communicated is true (HM stating "there is now two marketplaces"). From HM own mouth, previously there was only one.

I can't see any reason they'd sidestep the truth.

Everything else fall into place from there - historical difference in RAR, court case, 4th of May T&C's we signed, the lack of volume. All a function of allocation between two marketplaces from the prior single marketplace. Wholesalers still have the ability to bid in the retail platform (retaining their liquidity function), with the fewer amount of loans its more noticeable when Wholesale chomps them up.

myles
09-06-2018, 02:09 AM
If what Joker has communicated is true (HM stating "there is now two marketplaces"). From HM own mouth, previously there was only one.

You've not been around long enough leesal - existence of the Wholesale Marketplace and Retail Marketplace is not new, it just hasn't been so well defined as it is in the new documentation.

A quote from a Harmoney rep from October 2016:

"We don't offer the "cream of the crop" to our Institutional Lenders. Loans are randomly distributed between the wholesale and retail markets, and are risk-graded on the same criteria irrespective of which market they go to. Because each Lender has total control over which loans they chose to (or not to) invest in, there's unlikely to be many Lenders who are exposed to exactly the same risk - which is why we highly recommend that Lenders diversify their portfolios (you can find out more about diversification here:.." Grace@Harmoney

As for the rest - speculation I think. Harmoney have always had the right to swing the balance of loans into the Wholesale Marketplace if there is a requirement...I suspect there is at the moment.

RMJH
09-06-2018, 08:19 AM
Suspect the emergence of this parallel market could explain why the activity stats have been turned off.

I hope we continue to get both wholesale (ie both markets consolidated) and retail stats in the spirit of openness which, to be fair, has existed thus far.

Of course it's their business to operate as they wish but if availability continues at this level it's basically over for anyone with more than a few $K who wishes to be well diversified.

permutation
09-06-2018, 01:23 PM
(https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/marketplace-management)….I suspect that they wish to close the gap between the retail and wholesale RARs caused by retail investors selectively investing in the better loans and leaving the riskier loans to be filled by the wholesale investors. How else can one explain the variance in RARs?

Let's analyze your statement. Would not the opposite be the case?

Wholesale investors, in my view, put large chunks of money into each loan so would more likely invest in the less risky loans like A grades and low B's, thereby reducing their overall RAR.

Likewise, retail investors buying just one note of $25 into many higher risk loans are more likely get a higher return over time?

Personally speaking, being in for 39 months, I have through experience ditched the low interest loan Grades A's and low B's and also the Extreme risk loan Grades E and F, where I have encountered a 15% Charge-off rate, and now intensely concentrate lending into the "mid-Range Risk grades" providing my latest RAR of 13.89%.

Investor
09-06-2018, 01:48 PM
Let's analyze your statement. Would not the opposite be the case?

Wholesale investors, in my view, put large chunks of money into each loan so would more likely invest in the less risky loans like A grades and low B's, thereby reducing their overall RAR.

Likewise, retail investors buying just one note of $25 into many higher risk loans are more likely get a higher return over time?

Personally speaking, being in for 39 months, I have through experience ditched the low interest loan Grades A's and low B's and also the Extreme risk loan Grades E and F, where I have encountered a 15% Charge-off rate, and now intensely concentrate lending into the "mid-Range Risk grades" providing my latest RAR of 13.89%.

According to Harmoney, wholesale investors don't get to choose which grades they invest in.

In my opinion loan volume will pick up again.

RMJH
10-06-2018, 05:45 AM
I had the impression that (at one time) wholesale paid higher fees. Avoiding E's and F's has also been RAR beneficial in my experience.

Bjauck
10-06-2018, 11:31 AM
..
We now have 2 marketplaces:
1. Peer-to-Peer, where loans are funded from investments by retail and wholesale investors through our p2p marketplace; and
2. Wholesale funding, where whole loans are funded by our institutional partners. ...

Is Harmoney still peer-to-peer if "peers" are treated differently? Can borrowers choose whether they just borrow via the "peer-to-peer" market place as opposed to institutions funding their loan completely?

joker
11-06-2018, 06:14 AM
Very slow last week at Harmoney. I got only one autolend loan compared to my usual 15 - 20 before the loan listings crashed in May. Funds available for investment are rising at an unbelievable rate despite doubling the number of notes per loan I buy via autolend since late May. LC is better but funds available there are also on the increase.

leesal
11-06-2018, 02:52 PM
You've not been around long enough leesal - existence of the Wholesale Marketplace and Retail Marketplace is not new, it just hasn't been so well defined as it is in the new documentation.

A quote from a Harmoney rep from October 2016:

"We don't offer the "cream of the crop" to our Institutional Lenders. Loans are randomly distributed between the wholesale and retail markets, and are risk-graded on the same criteria irrespective of which market they go to. Because each Lender has total control over which loans they chose to (or not to) invest in, there's unlikely to be many Lenders who are exposed to exactly the same risk - which is why we highly recommend that Lenders diversify their portfolios (you can find out more about diversification here:.." Grace@Harmoney

As for the rest - speculation I think. Harmoney have always had the right to swing the balance of loans into the Wholesale Marketplace if there is a requirement...I suspect there is at the moment.

In that case, funny they should bang on about the two marketplaces in their communication to Joker.

If so and both marketplaces have previously existed albeit in a less formalised state, gives the impression they're could be increasing wholesale for a reasonable length of time... Otherwise I'd expect their Investment-Relations line to be much different.

leesal
11-06-2018, 02:56 PM
Interesting comment by a borrower!
Borrower Comments I was scammed out of $3500 and this loan will help purchase the telescope I was attempting to buy

myles
11-06-2018, 03:10 PM
Something has changed in respect to Wholesale investors as the mentioned 'funding model' is new. Just what that change is is not overly clear to me.

Wording suggests that Wholesale investers now have two options:
i) just give Harmoney a lump of money and get them to invest it for them
ii) take a more active role in the investment process

The above is speculation...

The current lull could be due to Harmoney testing something new...perhaps the AI grading 'thing' that they alluded too a while back...a new Wholesale invester wanting all their funds invested ASAP as part of signing up... could even be the integration of Payment Protect into RAR figures... who knows...

Just want the stream of #*@&ing loans to come back online... ^oo^

myles
11-06-2018, 03:13 PM
Interesting comment by a borrower!
Borrower Comments I was scammed out of $3500 and this loan will help purchase the telescope I was attempting to buy
There was a recent report about some NZ online high end telescope shop not delivering...

joker
11-06-2018, 03:33 PM
Something has changed in respect to Wholesale investors as the mentioned 'funding model' is new. Just what that change is is not overly clear to me.

Wording suggests that Wholesale investers now have two options:
i) just give Harmoney a lump of money and get them to invest it for them
ii) take a more active role in the investment process

The above is speculation...

The current lull could be due to Harmoney testing something new...perhaps the AI grading 'thing' that they alluded too a while back...a new Wholesale invester wanting all their funds invested ASAP as part of signing up... could even be the integration of Payment Protect into RAR figures... who knows...

Just want the stream of #*@&ing loans to come back online... ^oo^
This is how Harmoney is running its Australian arm. Over there, they are only licensed to operate P2P for high net worth "sophisticated" investors. To join, you need to give them $2m to invest in loans on your behalf. I hoped to get in with a lower amount but they weren't keen because of my NZ tax residency but said they would pass my details on for Harmoney NZ to contact me for the same type of operation. They never did and I wouldn't be interested in Harmoney picking loans for me anyway.
9726
http://www.harmoney.com.au/investors

humvee
12-06-2018, 12:03 PM
There looks to have been a much larger then usual wave of writeoff's go through in the last few days.

At least some of it must have been less then 60 days arrears as the amount ive had written off was more then total balance of all loans that were 60 day+

icyfire
12-06-2018, 12:16 PM
Perhaps HM are quickly ridding themselves of rather time-wasting retail investors. HM have probably realized that servicing only a bunch of wholesale lenders rather than thousands of small retail lenders will be a much more efficient business model. Just saying! And I hope I'm wrong.

Vagabond47
12-06-2018, 12:23 PM
Okay, so is this my first charge off in process? Can't quite tell what this means when it has a paid off date, and an outstanding principal amount, and nothing in charged off?
9730

BJ1
12-06-2018, 01:01 PM
So, no days in arrears Vagabond, but still a large amount of $ when compared to last payment - seems like over 1.5 months in arrears to me. These reporting errors from Harmoney have been around from inception. I have tackled Harmoney repeatedly and keep getting promises to fix, but I doubt the will or money exists to make it happen. And if the focus is shifting from satisfying retail to satisfying wholesale investors, then there is even less likelihood of the glitches being addressed, as the latter won't be so focused on the whys but just on the net returns.

Vagabond47
12-06-2018, 02:06 PM
It was previously 31-60 in arrears, no idea why it says 0 now.

myles
12-06-2018, 02:24 PM
Looks like a Paid Off loan rather than a Charged Off loan to me (could be wrong). Probably just a timing issue before everything is 'tidied up'.

Paid Off loans have the PAID-OFF DATE: field as yours does, Charged Off loans don't show the PAID-OFF DATE: field but show a CHARGED-OFF DATE: field under the CHARGE-OFFS / ARREARS section.

johna
12-06-2018, 02:30 PM
Still a frustrating lack of loans on the investor portal!

BJ1
12-06-2018, 07:01 PM
So, at 1439 hrs today there were four loans on the marketplace and now there is only one of them left, but the loans activity for the past 24 hours states no loans written. Conclusion: providing accurate information is not a Harmoney priority.

Vagabond47
13-06-2018, 07:12 AM
I logged in this morning to check if the status on that loan had changed, and discovered something interesting. On the mobile version of the interface there are a couple of other loans with interesting statuses. Like one with "current (61-90)" and current (31-60) and sure enough, last payment in April for both loans. On the fullsize interface those loans simply show as current. So apparently current can mean anything from actually current to we're about to charge it off.

I think Harmoney needs to sort their systems out pronto.

leesal
13-06-2018, 08:23 AM
I logged in this morning to check if the status on that loan had changed, and discovered something interesting. On the mobile version of the interface there are a couple of other loans with interesting statuses. Like one with "current (61-90)" and current (31-60) and sure enough, last payment in April for both loans. On the fullsize interface those loans simply show as current. So apparently current can mean anything from actually current to we're about to charge it off.

I think Harmoney needs to sort their systems out pronto.

From experience I'd say just different "Categories" of credit control

Borrowers are able to vary the terms if they suffer "unforseen financial hardship" through a formal application. HM would also no doubt vary terms on a case-to-case basis as part of their collection process.

Therefore I'd read "Current (61-90)" - to mean that collections have been renegotiated, so borrower is on track with payments, but from a lender perspective client remains 2 months behind.

Vagabond47
13-06-2018, 08:46 AM
From experience I'd say just different "Categories" of credit control

Borrowers are able to vary the terms if they suffer "unforseen financial hardship" through a formal application. HM would also no doubt vary terms on a case-to-case basis as part of their collection process.

Therefore I'd read "Current (61-90)" - to mean that collections have been renegotiated, so borrower is on track with payments, but from a lender perspective client remains 2 months behind.

1) if its been renegotiated in some way we should know.. perhaps a status of "credit control" or "impaired" or "under supervision"
2) last payment April.. if they've renegotiated for a temporary reduction in payments there should at least one smaller payment more recently than April.

BJ1
13-06-2018, 03:10 PM
Over the past 2 years I've queried quite a number of loans recorded as current but actually in arrears by my reckoning and every time the response has been to change the status to in arrears. There is definitely a problem with recording of status.

whitt
14-06-2018, 03:05 PM
MARKET STAT UPDATE:

-Autolend graph in market stats now confirms the recent rapid decline on matches and funding using this feature
-Retail Vs Institutional funding graph also shows a recent spike in loan % being given to wholesale sector. Currently sitting at 85% where as previous it had averaged 75%

Looks like its slim picking for future Autolend matches until the market improves significantly or Harmoney edit the lending % ratio away from Wholesale sector.

9738
9737

johna
14-06-2018, 03:47 PM
This is ridiculous, there are just no loans available?

humvee
14-06-2018, 04:09 PM
This is ridiculous, there are just no loans available?

I haven't had a single auto lend loan purchased for over a month, and at all times I have had 2k-3k+ sitting idle

But there is really odd stuff happening

Eg Today there were 2 loans on the market place both of which matched my auto lend rules perfectly - and searching with my auto lend filter confirmed this, But auto lend did not invest

I then Manually invested in both LAI*00131746 & LAI*00131744 - The loans then sat on the market place for several hours before they were filled.

It seems like a case of there are not enough loans - and at the same time not enough investors( to fill a loan while investors suitably diversify / fractionalize )

LAI*00131744 D5 26.49% 60 2.6% $24,125 Business Cash Flow
LAI*00131746 C3 21.9% 60 0.56% $40,450 Debt Consolidation

johna
14-06-2018, 06:28 PM
I haven't had a single auto lend loan purchased for over a month, and at all times I have had 2k-3k+ sitting idle

But there is really odd stuff happening

Eg Today there were 2 loans on the market place both of which matched my auto lend rules perfectly - and searching with my auto lend filter confirmed this, But auto lend did not invest

I then Manually invested in both LAI*00131746 & LAI*00131744 - The loans then sat on the market place for several hours before they were filled.

It seems like a case of there are not enough loans - and at the same time not enough investors( to fill a loan while investors suitably diversify / fractionalize )

LAI*00131744 D5 26.49% 60 2.6% $24,125 Business Cash Flow
LAI*00131746 C3 21.9% 60 0.56% $40,450 Debt Consolidation

That's curious! What time were they on the marketplace? I've logged on several times today and never seen a loan available at all.

myles
14-06-2018, 07:04 PM
Market place summary fixed perhaps:

Activity LAST 24 HRS 7 NEW LOANS $190,000 FULLY FUNDED LOAN AMOUNT

humvee
15-06-2018, 06:32 AM
That's curious! What time were they on the marketplace? I've logged on several times today and never seen a loan available at all.

Not sure exact time - Mid morning

humvee
15-06-2018, 06:38 AM
Not sure exact time - Mid morning

There is another there at the moment -
LAI*00131775 (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/lender/) - doesnt meet my requirements though - judging by the fact it only has 13 days left I would say it has been there since some time last night

RMJH
15-06-2018, 06:53 AM
Market place summary fixed perhaps:

Activity LAST 24 HRS 7 NEW LOANS $190,000 FULLY FUNDED LOAN AMOUNT

Maybe they found a way to split the markets?!

johna
15-06-2018, 10:36 AM
There are two there right now, both fall outside my usual 10% repayment to income, but what the hell, i need to get some money on!

Vagabond47
16-06-2018, 08:52 AM
https://www.interest.co.nz/business/94297/peer-peer-lending-facilitator-harmoney-begin-lending-money-its-own-online-platform

Acording to that article harmoney itself hasn't started investing yet. So what is/was up with the marketplace?

slingy
16-06-2018, 10:00 AM
There is another there at the moment -

LAI*00131775 (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/lender/) -
doesnt meet my requirements though - judging by the fact it only has 13 days left I would say it has been there since some time last night



It showed up in my lending portal at 2018-06-14 20:36:55

RMJH
17-06-2018, 06:54 AM
https://www.interest.co.nz/business/94297/peer-peer-lending-facilitator-harmoney-begin-lending-money-its-own-online-platform

Acording to that article harmoney itself hasn't started investing yet. So what is/was up with the marketplace?
Maybe it's just the lousy weather and rate hikes?

leesal
17-06-2018, 11:49 AM
Maybe it's just the lousy weather and rate hikes?

The market is awash with credit - esp unsecured.

The funding Mix graph says it all. I believe HM has changed its business model emphasis.

BJ1
18-06-2018, 06:41 AM
The funding Mix graph says it all. I believe HM has changed its business model emphasis.

It certainly seems so, and as a consequence retail investors seem to be being fed false information on the number of loans funded - and it can't be that previously all we have ever seen is the number funded by retail, because if that is the case we wouldn't have seen those large blocks of loans lent to 80% suddenly all disappearing at once.

RMJH
18-06-2018, 06:54 AM
The market is awash with credit - esp unsecured.

The funding Mix graph says it all. I believe HM has changed its business model emphasis.
Agree it does seem increasingly likely. Not sure why you would bother to drip so few loans to retail though. Definitely an information void which needs filling.

icyfire
18-06-2018, 12:19 PM
It appears that P2P lending on HM is pretty much dead. Have withdrawn all my funds today. It's pretty clear that HM's business model has now changed and their focus is almost completely on wholesale lending.

myles
18-06-2018, 12:35 PM
The market is awash with credit - esp unsecured.

I'm not sure that it is... The graph below suggests something quite different:

9746
Source: https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/electronic-card-transactions-may-2018

It has been shown that P2P lending follows credit card spending etc... So perhaps it is just a significant lull in loans. No doubt Harmoney have obligations to their wholesale 'partners', so the low availability of loans for retail investors may just be due to a lack of 'excess' loans. [All speculation...]

Vagabond47
18-06-2018, 01:09 PM
Just because there is plenty of credit available doesn't mean people are going to take it up. Between tax increases (fuel excise, akl regional fuel tax etc) and threats of mortgage rate increases in the media I can imagine many households are tightening the belt a bit. And those that believe Kiwibuild will actually drop house prices (unlikely) will be saving like mad I would suspect.

leesal
19-06-2018, 12:07 AM
I'm not sure that it is... The graph below suggests something quite different:

9746
Source: https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/electronic-card-transactions-may-2018

It has been shown that P2P lending follows credit card spending etc... So perhaps it is just a significant lull in loans. No doubt Harmoney have obligations to their wholesale 'partners', so the low availability of loans for retail investors may just be due to a lack of 'excess' loans. [All speculation...]

Intriguing. Although don't trust one offs counter trend, could be anything from data collection, to a one off skewing the comparative month on the other end. Also completely rubbish weather in April. Lets see what June brings. Next month there are changes to Working for Families - likely to stimulate further credit growth.

I use the Household Balance sheet, Consumer Loans. https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/statistics/c22. Which released data shows continued steady credit growth from early 2014 through to current. Mar18 (16.4b) being 7% above Mar17 (15.3b).

Another good proxy is new motor vehicle sales https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales. Which is still cracking on superbly. I just do not believe their is anything fundamentally different in credit, all seems to be typical mid/late cycle behaviour.

humvee
19-06-2018, 06:13 AM
That said new vehicle sale loans are most likely not done as unsecured lending so may not be as relevent to loan volumes on harmony.

I'm normally only watching C-E grades but I don't think I've ever seen a "new vehicle" loan that I actually believed was new vehicle loan. ( Too few $ usually or comments gave it away) they were 2nd hand vehicles that were "new to them"

johna
19-06-2018, 09:20 AM
and suddenly there are three loans available - maybe the tide has turned and H has listened to the complaints!

Investor
19-06-2018, 11:03 AM
and suddenly there are three loans available - maybe the tide has turned and H has listened to the complaints!

Or perhaps some loans have appeared on the market for other reasons.

humvee
19-06-2018, 12:31 PM
and suddenly there are three loans available - maybe the tide has turned and H has listened to the complaints!


And just out of interest - here is my thought process on the 2 loans on the market now ........

9750

alundracloud
19-06-2018, 12:34 PM
The most frustrating thing for me is the lack of communication from Harmoney. They treat their Retail Investors with disdain, basically taking the attitude of "we know you don't like it, but we don't care"

RMJH
19-06-2018, 01:25 PM
And just out of interest - here is my thought process on the 2 loans on the market now ........

9750
Not to mention 4 enquiries!

humvee
19-06-2018, 01:59 PM
Not to mention 4 enquiries!

In this case with the other information known 4 enquiries would be normal - for the renter - I don't score any negative points for it - however The excuse/explanation I assume is they have moved in last 6 months which I do score negatively

Likely Enquiries for this person in last 6 months

Harmoney - Last time (I would hope)
Electricity
Telephone/ Internet
Landlord ?
Pay TV?


4 enquiries for the boarder could be more of an issue since the phone and power is probably not in their name, and they probably did not have a credit check when they moved in - which was 4 years ago anyway. So their 4 enquiries are harder to explain with "good" not "negitive" reasons

icyfire
20-06-2018, 12:06 PM
HM's p2p lending license will expire in one year's time (https://fma.govt.nz/compliance/licensed-providers/harmoney-corp-limited/). It will be interesting to see if they will renew it.

Vagabond47
20-06-2018, 01:00 PM
The other side of the enquiries number.. lots of enquiries might just mean they have been shopping around looking for the best deal.. A much better borrower than the guy that just takes whatever the first finance company offers.

Also, last time I moved, the rental agent didn't do any checking. Did not call any of our references and didn't check credit records, basically told me we'd get the house on the spot as I handed over the application.

myles
20-06-2018, 01:07 PM
HM's p2p lending license will expire in one year's time (https://fma.govt.nz/compliance/licensed-providers/harmoney-corp-limited/). It will be interesting to see if they will renew it.

What would possibly make you think they wouldn't? (Scaremongering...) Current loans are out to 5 years...

icyfire
20-06-2018, 01:31 PM
No scaremongering at all. Just me thinking about HM's recent business model change but I forgot that they would still need the license for the current loan book.

bung5
22-06-2018, 09:05 AM
Looks like harmoney are now only allocating 15% of the loan volume to retail

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics

Really just a token gesture so they can still advertise as p2p lending I guess.

myles
22-06-2018, 09:28 AM
Looks like harmoney are now only allocating 15% of the loan volume to retail

The graph shows *recent* proportion as 17-18%. If you look back over the graph it appears, to me at least, that *more* than 25% has been allocated to retail over the period (a rough guess cutting peaks and troughs is 30%). The current drop may well be a re-balancing to an average of 25%...

beacon
22-06-2018, 09:32 AM
Looks like harmoney are now only allocating 15% of the loan volume to retail

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics

Really just a token gesture so they can still advertise as p2p lending I guess.

Perhaps it would be more appropraite if they gave up the pretense of being a P2P then, and morphed into a finance company etc., since they seem to be so focused on appeasing their wholesale partners.

Funny how wholesalers jump the Q while the little guys wait with their little wallets in a P2P finance provider. 6 weeks and counting... :t_down:

myles
22-06-2018, 11:11 AM
The 'Volume over time' graph clearly shows some 'slowing' of loan volume. Last week (10/06 - 17/06) there were only 124 loans - at 18% that's only 22 loans for the week, at 25% that's only 31 loans for the week. (about what I think went through)

The key question, I think, is what is currently impacting loan volume?

I've noticed a few more Harmoney ads on TV, but I don't watch much TV - so I'm guessing they are trying to increase that number...

I don't monitor Lending Crowd loans, but receive the emails, my 'gut' feel is that they have been offering less loans in recent times?

Perhaps a threshold has been reached of people converting from Credit Card to P2P, or perhaps it's just a very slow market at the moment?

I personally don't think Harmoney are out to crush the retail P2P lenders - it is a huge marketing bonus to sell the idea of Kiwi's lending directly to Kiwi's and 'sticking it' to the banks.

Saamee
22-06-2018, 11:30 AM
The 'Volume over time' graph clearly shows some 'slowing' of loan volume. Last week (10/06 - 17/06) there were only 124 loans - at 18% that's only 22 loans for the week, at 25% that's only 31 loans for the week. (about what I think went through)

The key question, I think, is what is currently impacting loan volume?

I've noticed a few more Harmoney ads on TV, but I don't watch much TV - so I'm guessing they are trying to increase that number...

I don't monitor Lending Crowd loans, but receive the emails, my 'gut' feel is that they have been offering less loans in recent times?

Perhaps a threshold has been reached of people converting from Credit Card to P2P, or perhaps it's just a very slow market at the moment?

I personally don't think Harmoney are out to crush the retail P2P lenders - it is a huge marketing bonus to sell the idea of Kiwi's lending directly to Kiwi's and 'sticking it' to the banks.

Agreed. I see that there is a real 'Slow Down' across all 3 main P2P Lenders.

What is causing the slow down... Who knows.... Start of Winter, Credit Bubble overload etc

whitt
22-06-2018, 09:15 PM
Perhaps it would be more appropraite if they gave up the pretense of being a P2P then, and morphed into a finance company etc., since they seem to be so focused on appeasing their wholesale partners.

Funny how wholesalers jump the Q while the little guys wait with their little wallets in a P2P finance provider. 6 weeks and counting... :t_down:
I wonder at which point they breach Nz advertising standards?
Only 15% of money is funded p2p by investors yet the marketing implies otherwise.
Is the marketing beginning to push boundaries?

RMJH
23-06-2018, 07:12 AM
Agreed. I see that there is a real 'Slow Down' across all 3 main P2P Lenders.

What is causing the slow down... Who knows.... Start of Winter, Credit Bubble overload etc
Feels like the the economy is on the turn somewhat so maybe we are just observing this.
I don't have data but the level of rewrites also seems lower. If this is the case it is more than just wholesale hogging and loans being diverted to an invisible market place.

joker
23-06-2018, 08:02 AM
To be fair to Harmoney, the statistics (attached) show that there has been a discernible drop in loans (both value and quantity) since the start of the year. It is likely that the institutional placement is more aligned with a dollar value than a percentage of loan numbers so if the institutional dollar value investment requirement remains the same in a reduced market the percentage that they take will increase. The talk in business circles is that consumer confidence has dropped since the change of government - not necessarily because the economy has changed but I think people may be keeping their wallets in their pockets. The cancellation of National's "middle class" tax reductions won't have helped.
9761

icyfire
23-06-2018, 06:18 PM
I wonder at which point they breach Nz advertising standards?
Only 15% of money is funded p2p by investors yet the marketing implies otherwise.
Is the marketing beginning to push boundaries?

Perhaps HM are taking advantage of a loophole in the FMA's p2p lending license which I don't think it requires that a certain number of loans must be made available to the retail investors. HM will continue to drip feed a few loans to the retail lenders here and there while using the marketing bonus of being a p2p lender to attract borrowers for their wholesale investors while at the same reducing the resources required for dealing with questions and demands from lots of small retail lenders. And that's smart business.

Cool Bear
25-06-2018, 10:24 AM
Just notice today that my "Amount in Arrears" is almost $2000. All along it was around the $1000 mark and mostly about $990+. Anyone else had their arrear figures doubled today?

CageyB
25-06-2018, 11:09 AM
Just notice today that my "Amount in Arrears" is almost $2000. All along it was around the $1000 mark and mostly about $990+. Anyone else had their arrear figures doubled today?

Mine roughly doubled as well.

bung5
25-06-2018, 11:17 AM
Mine roughly doubled as well.

Same for me

beacon
25-06-2018, 11:26 AM
Mine's up 7 times the usual :eek2:

rsmckee
25-06-2018, 11:30 AM
Yup same here guys - from 9:00 am to 11:00 am mine went up 300% $amount 225% errant loan no.s Awaiting a reply from my email. Hopefully we will all be better informed soon

humvee
25-06-2018, 11:36 AM
Yup same here guys - from 9:00 am to 11:00 am mine went up 300% $amount 225% errant loan no.s Awaiting a reply from my email. Hopefully we will all be better informed soon

Mine also looks to have about doubled

alundracloud
25-06-2018, 11:51 AM
Mine has shot up over 600% since y'day

leesal
25-06-2018, 12:05 PM
Seems to be HM have finally fixed a bug.

Previously the "Amount in Arrears" did not reconcile against HM export report. Where the arrears total could be found by filtering for Column C - "Status" = "Arrears" or Column W "Amount in Arrears"

The reported value in the dashboard now equates to the reported value. Mine is showing what it should be.

Provided this is what has been done, I'd view this as a good change. Although may be a shock to some - if were relying on the dashboard figure for their arrears total.

icyfire
25-06-2018, 12:46 PM
Seems to be HM have finally fixed a bug.
It's only taken them 3 years to fix this major software bug. Now that their business model has mostly shifted away from retail lenders HM are quite happy to show the true amount in arrears on the dashboard. Is this a coincidence or dodgy business practice?
There has been no communication from HM explaining this major screw up. Are they trying to sweep this one under the carpet?

myles
25-06-2018, 01:47 PM
Do others find it odd that loans now sit for quite some time on the Marketplace before they are filled?

With the lower number of loans going through, I find it counterintuitive that loans can sit in the marketplace for some hours before being fully funded. Around six months ago, if you didn't get in fairly quickly, you could miss out on a loan. Does this suggest that many are now 'mostly' using auto-lend, or perhaps due to the lower frequency of loans, are not checking as regularly as they may have in the past. Odd...:mellow:

It is a changing beast, as perhaps is the economy...

Cool Bear
25-06-2018, 02:01 PM
Do others find it odd that loans now sit for quite some time on the Marketplace before they are filled?

With the lower number of loans going through, I find it counterintuitive that loans can sit in the marketplace for some hours before being fully funded. Around six months ago, if you didn't get in fairly quickly, you could miss out on a loan. Does this suggest that many are now 'mostly' using auto-lend, or perhaps due to the lower frequency of loans, are not checking as regularly as they may have in the past. Odd...:mellow:

It is a changing beast, as perhaps is the economy...

Yes, I noticed that too and wonder why as well as so many here are complaining that there are not enough loans.

humvee
25-06-2018, 02:10 PM
It's only taken them 3 years to fix this major software bug. Now that their business model has mostly shifted away from retail lenders HM are quite happy to show the true amount in arrears on the dashboard. Is this a coincidence or dodgy business practice?
There has been no communication from HM explaining this major screw up. Are they trying to sweep this one under the carpet?

Still Plenty of errors though

9764

alundracloud
25-06-2018, 02:18 PM
Do others find it odd that loans now sit for quite some time on the Marketplace before they are filled?

With the lower number of loans going through, I find it counterintuitive that loans can sit in the marketplace for some hours before being fully funded. Around six months ago, if you didn't get in fairly quickly, you could miss out on a loan. Does this suggest that many are now 'mostly' using auto-lend, or perhaps due to the lower frequency of loans, are not checking as regularly as they may have in the past. Odd...:mellow:

It is a changing beast, as perhaps is the economy...

Hi Myles,

The theory I have that would explain this.... previously (ie up until 2 or so months ago), Wholesale/Institutional investors would snap-up the entire marketplace in one fell-swoop. It wouldn't be uncommon for there to be 5 or more loans on the marketplace one minute, and the next minute they're all completely filled and the marketplace is empty. Under this method, retail would get first dibs at the marketplace, being able to actively pick and choose what they put $ into- this also explains the discrepancy in the RARs between Retail & Wholesale.

With Harmoney now running two marketplaces, this means that institutional investors aren't 'cleaning up' the retail marketplace as they did before, meaning loans are sitting around for a whole lot longer. I could be entirely wrong about this, esp. because I thought HM always ran two separate marketplaces??

I definitely haven't noticed the marketplace being 'cleaned up' as I used to see.

PennyPicker
25-06-2018, 02:36 PM
Seems to be HM have finally fixed a bug.

Previously the "Amount in Arrears" did not reconcile against HM export report. The reported value in the dashboard now equates to the reported value.

Confirmed as working.

BJ1
25-06-2018, 03:28 PM
Confirmed as working.
Wouldn't it be great if, instead of us having to speculate, Harmoney actually told us what it has done / is doing. I find the speculating unhelpful and at times contrary to what I actually have been told by Harmoney. The company needs to understand that it charges us fees for a professional service and failing to provide that, as it has done, leaves it exposed to charges of taking money under false pretences.

alundracloud
25-06-2018, 03:34 PM
Agree BJ1. The non-existent communication from HM is a constant frustration. Why is it so difficult to be upfront?

ratkin
25-06-2018, 04:06 PM
How have people been doing with Harmoney lately? Logged on for the first tim in ages to see my Realised annual return down to 8.8% seems to have been gradually declining. Is that because of the lower interest environment or are the company skimming more off?

Or is it the dreaded "charged off"

myles
25-06-2018, 04:35 PM
I definitely haven't noticed the marketplace being 'cleaned up' as I used to see.

I think you are probably right. I was never clear on just how this worked, and still aren't. :(

joker
25-06-2018, 06:27 PM
In a Dompost news article from November 2017, FMA stated...
There were 16,977 loans outstanding with P2P lenders at the end of June [2017], of which 1469 were in arrears (i.e. 1+ days overdue).

This calculates as 8.65% of the total P2P active loan book in arrears 12 months ago.

My arrears currently stand at 4.79% of active loans (number, not value) up from 1.53% yesterday in a mildly conservative book (B, C, D1 & D2), and this figure is identical to that for my arrears with LC.

Full story here...https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/99287834/financial-regulator-shines-light-on-p2p-lending-crowdfunding (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/99287834/financial-regulator-shines-light-on-p2p-lending-crowdfunding)
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/99287834/financial-regulator-shines-light-on-p2p-lending-crowdfunding)
Most stats available for P2P seem to consider loans in arrears as those that are 31+ days overdue.

(https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/99287834/financial-regulator-shines-light-on-p2p-lending-crowdfunding)

permutation
25-06-2018, 07:43 PM
Checked out my stats in $ value terms. "Arrears vs Principal Outstanding"; before today was 0.1972%; Today it shot up to 0.3188%.

The way I see it, have given up being frustrated by Harmoney's indifferent P.R. to us liitle guys and am making the most of my current 13.93% RAR.

Who knows, tomorrow the arrears figures may all reverse back!

BJ1
26-06-2018, 06:25 AM
Checked out my stats in $ value terms. "Arrears vs Principal Outstanding"; before today was 0.1972%; Today it shot up to 0.3188%.

The way I see it, have given up being frustrated by Harmoney's indifferent P.R. to us liitle guys and am making the most of my current 13.93% RAR.

I also adopt this view. However, I don't see the arrears levels falling as they are now where I expected them over 3 years of telling Harmoney to fix the bug. What concerns me is that Harmoney may focus even less on debt collection, resulting in greater bad debts, which could have been avoided.

Vagabond47
26-06-2018, 07:00 AM
Who knows, tomorrow the arrears figures may all reverse back!

Nope, arrears still there.. its the RAR figures that vanished from my dashboard instead.

humvee
26-06-2018, 08:00 AM
Nope, arrears still there.. its the RAR figures that vanished from my dashboard instead.


Both my RAR figures are gone too

humvee
26-06-2018, 08:19 AM
Is suspect they might be in the process of removing the Platform RAR from the dashboard and replacing it with a retail RAR.

I guess the platform RAR has been single digits for too long

humvee
26-06-2018, 08:20 AM
Is suspect they might be in the process of removing the Platform RAR from the dashboard and replacing it with a retail RAR.

I guess the platform RAR has been single digits for too long

Out of interest though My lending crowd NAR was above my harmoney RAR for the 1st time ever last week - and still is this week

PennyPicker
26-06-2018, 09:06 AM
Years ago Harmoney featured tangentially on episode 61 of the Lend Academy podcast (https://www.lendacademy.com/category/podcast/page/9/). To bootstrap the service Harmoney brought a system that handles the internal workings of a p2p platform and wrapped a website on it. The guy interviewed sells his system around the world.

Knowing this and assuming it's still the case, we might assume that Harmoney don't have 100% control over the internal behavior of their platform. They may have to wait on new releases or bug fixes to address issues like the rest of us.

Re the Arrears problem on the dashboard, yes clearly been a problem for a while, but how long has it been known? Did anyone tell Harmoney?

RMJH
26-06-2018, 10:10 AM
I also adopt this view. However, I don't see the arrears levels falling as they are now where I expected them over 3 years of telling Harmoney to fix the bug. What concerns me is that Harmoney may focus even less on debt collection, resulting in greater bad debts, which could have been avoided.
(26 June, 2018) - A bug in arrears reporting was resolved yesterday which may have resulted in a change in the amount of arrears reported in your dashboard. The bug did not impact your underlying cash transactions and balances and transaction statements. Apologies for this and steps have been put in place to prevent this happening again.
Spin really doesn't help.

joker
26-06-2018, 11:37 AM
(26 June, 2018) - A bug in arrears reporting was resolved yesterday which may have resulted in a change in the amount of arrears reported in your dashboard. The bug did not impact your underlying cash transactions and balances and transaction statements. Apologies for this and steps have been put in place to prevent this happening again.
Spin really doesn't help.

And...
RAR not displaying (26 June, 2018) - RAR numbers are not currently displaying on the dashboard. We are aware of the issue and working on a solution.

XxOrooxX
27-06-2018, 07:12 PM
Tax season friends. I've been looking over investor as a business IRD paper to determine if I was in the business of investing. Just wondering if anyone had come across anything useful in assessing whether or not you can claim loan defaults. Anyone want to share their experience? I've begun migrating all of my funds out of harmoney to more tax efficient vehicles.

joker
27-06-2018, 07:28 PM
Tax season friends. I've been looking over investor as a business IRD paper to determine if I was in the business of investing. Just wondering if anyone had come across anything useful in assessing whether or not you can claim loan defaults. Anyone want to share their experience? I've begun migrating all of my funds out of harmoney to more tax efficient vehicles.

What sort of more efficient tax vehicles are you looking at moving into?

XxOrooxX
27-06-2018, 07:43 PM
Exchanged traded funds or shares really. I don't believe there's capital gains tax in NZ.

BJ1
28-06-2018, 07:58 AM
There actually is a capital gains tax - any investment acquired with the intent to sell it at a profit is a taxable investment. That applies to widgets, shares and property. IRD doesn't enforce the law, perhaps because it is thought to be hard to prove intent. All it needs is a change in Ministerial guts to backdate application up to 10 years.

777
28-06-2018, 08:58 AM
Exchanged traded funds or shares really. I don't believe there's capital gains tax in NZ.

You should know the tax situation, not believe in what you think.

myles
28-06-2018, 02:08 PM
Looks like things are picking up today - 14 loans $327,600 and a spike up on the auto-lend graph.

The snow holiday might be over...

humvee
28-06-2018, 02:24 PM
Looks like things are picking up today - 14 loans $327,600 and a spike up on the auto-lend graph.

The snow holiday might be over...

I got my first Auto lends in over a month and a half today, Unfortunately It invested 4 notes in a loan that while it matched my auto lend criteria had I been manually investing I would not have invested anything. But at the same time only invested 1 note in a loan that matched my auto lend critea and I would also have happily manually invested in

alundracloud
29-06-2018, 06:57 AM
Looks like things are picking up today - 14 loans $327,600 and a spike up on the auto-lend graph.

The snow holiday might be over...

$222,275 lent by Auto-lend yesterday. Stands out as a massive skyscraper on the auto-lend graph, almost doubles the 'spike' on the 27th

myles
03-07-2018, 05:26 PM
9784

After around 15 months I've invested 200K for an investment of 100K... It certainly isn't - invest and forget :ohmy:

humvee
03-07-2018, 07:40 PM
9784

After around 15 months I've invested 200K for an investment of 100K... It certainly isn't - invest and forget :ohmy:

I've invested 2.68 x more / had a turnover 2.68 x higher then the maximum I have had invested thats over a period of 3.5 years - So its far from set and forget - especially since I have only had auto invest make an investment twice in the last 3+ months - Its taking everything I can to just reinvest to hold a particular balance invested, I certainly could not increase the amount invested even if I wanted to. But given my lending crowd return is now higher then harmoney there is no real reason to increase the total amount invested with harmoney

darrenc
04-07-2018, 01:33 PM
But given my lending crowd return is now higher then harmoney there is no real reason to increase the total amount invested with harmoney

Mine is about to converge as Harmoney drops (14.36% in LC vs 14.53). I'm pulling all my money from Harmoney at the moment. Can't get above $25k in LC, though, as there's not enough volume putting $200 in per B1 or B2 (when you can get them)

humvee
06-07-2018, 08:54 AM
I've been crunching some numbers from the Rar vs Loan count graph, its interesting reading if nothing else
I would be really keen to hear from any of the 13 people with 3000+ Loans that have a rar above me

Highest Return 1+ Loans
39%
Highest Return 10+ Loans
30.5%
Highest Return 100+ Loans
22.08%
Highest Return 1000+ Loans
18.55%
Highest Return 4000+ Loans
16.07%


Lowest Return 1+ Loans
-207%
Lowest Return 10+ Loans
-27.49%
Lowest Return 100+ Loans
-0.06%
Lowest Return 1000+ Loans
8.48%
Lowest Return 2000+ Loans
9.91%
Lowest Return 4000+ Loans
10.08%




So How am I doing?
I have had 4000+ unique loans so far
Rar 14.49%
8 People with 4000+ Loans are above me, 79 are below me
13 People with 3000+ Loans are above me, 129 people are below
64 People with 1000+ Loans are above me 575 are below me
1196 People with 10+ Loans are above me, 5886 are below me
In total 1554 people are above me. 6577 are below me

humvee
06-07-2018, 10:02 AM
This would be a good graph harmoney should show as standard - I know they graph each separately - but its nicer to see them together

9791

bung5
06-07-2018, 10:39 AM
[QUOTE=humvee;720742]

Lowest Return 1+ Loans
-207%



How you do you lose more than 100% ?

darrenc
06-07-2018, 10:53 AM
I've been crunching some numbers from the Rar vs Loan count graph, its interesting reading if nothing else
I would be really keen to hear from any of the 13 people with 3000+ Loans that have a rar above me



I'm one of them, but I'm only just above you - 14.53% with 3300 loans. My graph is trending down, although the max I reached was about 17.5%. I'm gradually withdrawing money from Harmoney as my LC return is about the same. I'm also concerned about what might happen when we have a downturn.

myles
06-07-2018, 11:06 AM
So How am I doing?

Not as well as I currently am, but I've not been in as long.



I have had 4000+ unique loans so far
Rar 14.49%

I currently have had 2125 loans with a current RAR of 15.85%.

For the time I've been in, I believe I'm now in the 'level' portion of a RAR curve so should trend as the 'Marketplace' RAR curve trends i.e. no further significant drop.

Personally I don't see how using 'unique loans' is indicative of 'how one is doing' as loan size, hence investment size, can vary. e.g. I'm now investing between $100 - $200 dollars per loan - for the amount I have invested this is still very diversified - probably overly so i.e. I should, and may, start taking larger portions of loans - something I've been thinking about for a while, to try to keep $'s invested. Still waiting to see if loan volume picks up...

I guess what I'm saying is that there are different strategies you can take to invest and unique number of loans doesn't paint the full picture. I believe you can do better by investing larger (but still diverse) amounts into 'better' loans, once your overall investment size is large enough. i.e. it won't make any significant difference to the value of charged-off principal. In fact it may reduce it...

beacon
06-07-2018, 12:20 PM
2125 loans with a current RAR of 15.85%.

Personally I don't see how using 'unique loans' is indicative of 'how one is doing' as loan size, hence investment size, can vary.

With a 100K invested over 15+ months, Mylesy, that is still an awesome RAR, even though it has been dipping like the rest of the marketplace.

Using unique loans pegs performance comparison to one (reasonable) variable, even though your objection remains valid. Pegging it to portfolio size along with tenure is better, but some may shy away from discussing that...

Below you humvee on both counts. Good going, and well done on your C-Es after 3.5 years... :t_up:

humvee
06-07-2018, 12:26 PM
[QUOTE=humvee;720742]

Lowest Return 1+ Loans
-207%



How you do you lose more than 100% ?

The Numbers are direct from harmoneys data - so apply the usual grain of salt - but the assumption I would make is....

Returns are per annum - so if you manage to lose 100% of your money in just under 6 months you have a return of -207% per annum

humvee
06-07-2018, 12:31 PM
Personally I don't see how using 'unique loans' is indicative of 'how one is doing' as loan size, hence investment size, can vary. e.g. I'm now investing between $100 - $200 dollars per loan - for the amount I have invested this is still very diversified - probably overly so i.e. I should, and may, start taking larger portions of loans - something I've been thinking about for a while, to try to keep $'s invested. Still waiting to see if loan volume picks up...

I guess what I'm saying is that there are different strategies you can take to invest and unique number of loans doesn't paint the full picture. I believe you can do better by investing larger (but still diverse) amounts into 'better' loans, once your overall investment size is large enough. i.e. it won't make any significant difference to the value of charged-off principal. In fact it may reduce it...

I have to work with what data I can directly or indirectly get, Harmoney make no data in relation to portfolio size or notes per loan available, lacking this, unique loans - which harmoney do make available are the next best thing

humvee
06-07-2018, 12:39 PM
Not as well as I currently am, but I've not been in as long.



I currently have had 2125 loans with a current RAR of 15.85%.


Not bad at all by my calcs of people with 2000+ loans you have
5 People above you and 261 people below you

whitt
06-07-2018, 12:41 PM
I only have a small portfolio on Harmoney but interesting that my Rar is climbing in comparison.
I tightened up my autolend rules a long time ago and this has improved my Rar.

I wonder were my Rar will level off?9792

Vagabond47
06-07-2018, 12:42 PM
3 loans @ <99K in the last 24hours. And one of those loans was an A grade $70K loan. I just want to get my money reinvested where it's earning me interest dammit.

humvee
06-07-2018, 12:48 PM
I only have a small portfolio on Harmoney but interesting that my Rar is climbing in comparison.
I tightened up my autolend rules a long time ago and this has improved my Rar.

I wonder were my Rar will level off?9792


Are you actually getting anything via autolend - Ive had 2 loans in 2 months from autolend

Are you still growing your portfolio? Its alot harder to get a growing portfolio to level off then a static one. A shrinking portfolo (no reinvestment at all) will probably trend up

humvee
06-07-2018, 12:51 PM
I'm one of them, but I'm only just above you - 14.53% with 3300 loans. My graph is trending down, although the max I reached was about 17.5%. I'm gradually withdrawing money from Harmoney as my LC return is about the same. I'm also concerned about what might happen when we have a downturn.

I reckon you are prob just 1 place above me in the 3000+ unique loan group with 12 others above you

leesal
06-07-2018, 02:24 PM
3 loans @ <99K in the last 24hours. And one of those loans was an A grade $70K loan. I just want to get my money reinvested where it's earning me interest dammit.

HM must be on a friday day out. Haven't seen a single loan

myles
06-07-2018, 02:40 PM
3 loans @ <99K in the last 24hours. And one of those loans was an A grade $70K loan. I just want to get my money reinvested where it's earning me interest dammit.

You need to say this everyday as they clearly listen to you - they just dropped about 8 loans!!! $900 invested :)

humvee
06-07-2018, 03:13 PM
You need to say this everyday as they clearly listen to you - they just dropped about 8 loans!!! $900 invested :)

hmm damn - autolend did nothing, I didnt even see them and theres none now (or even 10 mins ago for that matter)

but I see the 24 hour activity just updated from 3 to 10 - it was still on 3 even after all were gone

Art
06-07-2018, 03:17 PM
You need to say this everyday as they clearly listen to you - they just dropped about 8 loans!!! $900 invested :)

Have been watching all day then away from the computer for half an hour and didn't see the new loans come up - by the time I logged in again they were are all gone! Damn! Getting money invested with HM is becoming too hard.

beacon
06-07-2018, 03:28 PM
You need to say this everyday as they clearly listen to you - they just dropped about 8 loans!!! $900 invested :)

I second that Vagabond. By God, you hammered them up like Thor... :D

Vagabond47
06-07-2018, 03:56 PM
dammit, missed them all!

BJ1
10-07-2018, 09:54 AM
I've compared every new loan I've seen over the past 4 weeks with my longstanding investment criteria and conclude that either the quality of applications has dived in that period or Harmoney has applied amended selection criteria resulting in the better risk loans in all gradings being offered to investors other than us. Whichever it is, if this continues, then I expect to see retail investor defaults escalating.