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alundracloud
07-04-2019, 03:52 PM
I think that if someone was able to get into the data it might be found that Harmoney was losing far more than its shareholders wanted, in just running the platform, so the decision was taken to manage that loss by investing in its own right, using BNZ funding, and to heck with the impact on the actual Peers in the P2P concept. If that is so, then our exposures are going to trend to zero, while our arrears will trend higher (as I have noticed in recent months).
You've hit the nail on the head BJ1 (in my opinion). That does at least appear what's happening. Though as Myles rightly points out, the communication has been nil.
Tend to agree, and why wouldn't shareholders run the business in their interests?! Cash level is getting ridiculous but I have decided to give it a little longer and have upped the investment per loan and dropped a little further into the A zone. I will feel a whole lot more comfortable when I have a few hundred loans at the new level!
myles
09-04-2019, 02:24 AM
More competition for P2P platforms:
Fintechs plotting a revolution in SME lending (https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/04/02/518149/bankers-beware-fintechs-aim-at-chunk-of-sme-lending#)
Prospa (https://www.prospa.co.nz/) already up and running by the looks - not sure what sort of interest rates they offer (dependant on the business, time in business etc.).
Harbour Asset Management has been investing in Harmoney loans
http://investmentnews.co.nz/investment-news/peer-to-peer-exemption-eases-loan-disclosure/
joker
16-04-2019, 07:19 AM
Harbour Asset Management has been investing in Harmoney loans
http://investmentnews.co.nz/investment-news/peer-to-peer-exemption-eases-loan-disclosure/
Brown said the fund currently held about $600,000 in roughly 200 underlying Harmoney loans - means an average to $3000 per loan. I wonder if they're buying on the retail platform or if they're getting special access as an institution and beating the rest of us to the loans?
Brown said the fund currently held about $600,000 in roughly 200 underlying Harmoney loans - means an average to $3000 per loan. I wonder if they're buying on the retail platform or if they're getting special access as an institution and beating the rest of us to the loans?
I was told recently that $2m was the minimum for wholesale but that they are not taking any more applications. Zip chance on either score!
Massive cock-up on my part yesterday. I had just bought a loan on Lending Crowd. I then went on to Harmoney and placed an order with the dollar amount not units! Something made me go back and check a little later but it was too late! Just raised my amount per loan too!
Another 10% of my portfolio turned to cash since last month and not a loan seen which meets my longstanding (3 year) set of criteria. Someone is getting to cherry pick before us.
Bjauck
16-04-2019, 10:19 AM
Another 10% of my portfolio turned to cash since last month and not a loan seen which meets my longstanding (3 year) set of criteria. Someone is getting to cherry pick before us.
I think Harmoney have been gradually squeezing out Retail peers on the lender side. Retail investors are a nuisance and less profitable?
I think Harmoney have been gradually squeezing out Retail peers on the lender side. Retail investors are a nuisance and less profitable?
I know the Harmoney ads I'm being served up on various platforms aren't making any mention of P2P.
I also liked this bit from the http://investmentnews.co.nz/investment-news/peer-to-peer-exemption-eases-loan-disclosure/ article:
"Brown said Harbour also did extensive due diligence on Harmoney before embarking on the peer-to-peer loans including a review of the platform’s credit ranking system and client servicing practices.
“We looked at a couple of other peer-to-peer platforms but Harmoney was the only one with critical mass and a reasonable historical record,” he said. “As investors you want to know the platform will be there in five years time.”"
Ironic much?
myles
16-04-2019, 12:25 PM
Massive cock-up on my part yesterday. I had just bought a loan on Lending Crowd. I then went on to Harmoney and placed an order with the dollar amount not units! Something made me go back and check a little later but it was too late! Just raised my amount per loan too!
I hope it was a good loan ;) I did a similar thing early last year, I punched in 50 (for $50) and ended up with $1,250 - that loan is still going strong and earning 20.49% :t_up: (Interest + principal has paid back half of it since January last year!)
I hope it was a good loan ;) I did a similar thing early last year, I punched in 50 (for $50) and ended up with $1,250 - that loan is still going strong and earning 20.49% :t_up: (Interest + principal has paid back half of it since January last year!)
Fingers crossed for us both! Mine was an A3. I don't normally buy them but with so much cash sitting idle....
myles
23-04-2019, 01:18 PM
Finally managed to drain funds available, it's been a very long time and I have withdrawn $10,000 from my initial $100,000 investment.
10492
This position represents close to 2 full years of $100,000 invested. With a $10,000 withdrawal, the total 'current' value is a touch over $130,000, so a gain of $15,000 (15%) per year. (Note: this is at 10.5% tax rate).
Very happy with that investment return, not so happy with recent loan availability, but perhaps that is improving?
alistar_mid
23-04-2019, 03:59 PM
Finally managed to drain funds available, it's been a very long time and I have withdrawn $10,000 from my initial $100,000 investment.
10492
This position represents close to 2 full years of $100,000 invested. With a $10,000 withdrawal, the total 'current' value is a touch over $130,000, so a gain of $15,000 (15%) per year. (Note: this is at 10.5% tax rate).
Very happy with that investment return, not so happy with recent loan availability, but perhaps that is improving?
If you don't mind me asking how do you get the 10.5% tax rate? - is there something I'm missing?
If you don't mind me asking how do you get the 10.5% tax rate? - is there something I'm missing?
Yes I wondered that as well.
myles
23-04-2019, 04:40 PM
In this case, keeping it very simple - no other income = minimal tax rate.
alistar_mid
24-04-2019, 08:52 AM
In this case, keeping it very simple - no other income = minimal tax rate.
Oh right. Congrats? - you've escaped the 9-5?
Also so thats factored into your rar? I remember from this thread we had pretty similar portfolios when we started, but your rar is about 3% better than mine at 15%
Is the tax rate the difference?
myles
24-04-2019, 10:56 AM
Also so thats factored into your rar? I remember from this thread we had pretty similar portfolios when we started, but your rar is about 3% better than mine at 15%
Is the tax rate the difference?
No, RAR is exclusive of tax.
RAR is comparable between portfolios, so any difference is 'real' within the marketplace.
joker
24-04-2019, 02:46 PM
How does this work? Loan is funded to 116% - presumably overloaded by the institutions. Somebody is going to miss out - hopefully not me.
10496
Saamee
24-04-2019, 05:03 PM
How does this work? Loan is funded to 116% - presumably overloaded by the institutions. Somebody is going to miss out - hopefully not me.
10496
Yes... I have hit that a few times recently.
Thinking it must be a major player comes in with a big order as the system processes lined up orders sequentially.
How does this work? Loan is funded to 116% - presumably overloaded by the institutions. Somebody is going to miss out - hopefully not me.
10496
Scary, surely that should not be possible!
PennyPicker
25-04-2019, 12:15 AM
Scary, surely that should not be possible!
It's a simple UI bug, well service probably; as we've all seen BUY orders are sometimes later refunded, no doubt because of situations like this where the our order was taken and later discarded after the math was done. Not unreasonable, it's a probable trade off between performance when accepting orders vs validation of available notes against unprocessed BUY orders. The service API, (and maybe there's an argument the UI) should never return a value > 100%, simple fix.
It's a simple UI bug, well service probably; as we've all seen BUY orders are sometimes later refunded, no doubt because of situations like this where the our order was taken and later discarded after the math was done. Not unreasonable, it's a probable trade off between performance when accepting orders vs validation of available notes against unprocessed BUY orders. The service API, (and maybe there's an argument the UI) should never return a value > 100%, simple fix.
Good answer! Thanks.
myles
11-05-2019, 09:04 AM
Hmm, my Amount in Arrears went from around $200 to over $500 this morning? A glitch I hope. Anyone else see this?
bung5
11-05-2019, 11:10 AM
Hmm, my Amount in Arrears went from around $200 to over $500 this morning? A glitch I hope. Anyone else see this?
My arrears have tripled overnight. It looks like they are all 1-30 days old so perhaps a delay in processing payments.
alundracloud
11-05-2019, 04:03 PM
My arrears have tripled overnight. It looks like they are all 1-30 days old so perhaps a delay in processing payments.
Mine have also tripled. Will probably sort itself come Monday.
beacon
11-05-2019, 04:25 PM
Mine have also tripled. Will probably sort itself come Monday.
Mine have doubled too.
Vagabond47
12-05-2019, 09:05 AM
Mine have doubled too.
Ditto, althought it was wednesday I noticed it, and looking today only one of the new arrears accounts is 0-30, the rest are in 31-60 days.
In full withdrawl mode now, between the absolute rubbish loans available and the recent loosening of rewrite amounts, it seem they can't find new customers and are trying to expeand the loan book by extending more credit to those already on the books. I suspect credit criteria is loose as a goose.
Saamee
13-05-2019, 06:06 PM
2019 RWT Tax Certificates are now available for Download :)
10533
alundracloud
14-05-2019, 10:07 AM
E-mail from me & the response from Harmoney below, re. arrears...... :(:(
Good afternoon,
I am just sending this e-mail through to double-check that the arrears amount showing on my dashboard is correct?
The number appears to have tripled from last Friday, to today. Is this accurate, or just a 'payment processing' lag / error?
If the number is correct- does that mean that the number showing previous was incorrect, and you've rectified an error on your end?
Kind regards,
Thank you for your email.
There was a display issue with the syncing of the front and back end display. This affected the status for certain loans on populating/updating on the front end display (from your lender account). The team had made the appropriate changes which had fixed the issue.
The correct showing status is correct. Please note, that this is only a display issue and there is no actual cash movement affected. The operations team have an actual view of the backend system to reflect the live status of loans and I can assure you that investors have been paid correctly.
I hope this clarifies things.
Kind regards,
joker
14-05-2019, 04:11 PM
E-mail from me & the response from Harmoney below, re. arrears...... :(:(
Thank you for your email.
There was a display issue with the syncing of the front and back end display. This affected the status for certain loans on populating/updating on the front end display (from your lender account). The team had made the appropriate changes which had fixed the issue.
The correct showing status is correct. Please note, that this is only a display issue and there is no actual cash movement affected. The operations team have an actual view of the backend system to reflect the live status of loans and I can assure you that investors have been paid correctly.
I hope this clarifies things.
Kind regards,
Well, they've certainly dodged the very relevant questions you asked! If fact they have answered a completely different set of questions!
myles
14-05-2019, 04:42 PM
I have never been able to calculate an arrears value equal to what Harmoney show in the dashboard summary :(
Often there are individual loans flagged as being in arrears but have had recent payments and, conversely, individual loans that have not had a payment for well over a month that are not flagged as being in arrears. :confused:
My individual loan arrears sum is currently $445.75, the summary dashboard value is $518.67.
The details in the 'frontend' have always been wrong and as far as I can tell are still wrong. :t_down:
I have never been able to calculate an arrears value equal to what Harmoney show in the dashboard summary :(
Often there are individual loans flagged as being in arrears but have had recent payments and, conversely, individual loans that have not had a payment for well over a month that are not flagged as being in arrears. :confused:
My individual loan arrears sum is currently $445.75, the summary dashboard value is $518.67.
The details in the 'frontend' have always been wrong and as far as I can tell are still wrong. :t_down:
What about recovered write offs. Deduct those from the quoted write offs and see if that matches to your calculation.
myles
14-05-2019, 05:46 PM
What about recovered write offs. Deduct those from the quoted write offs and see if that matches to your calculation.
What have Recovered $ from Charged Off loans got to do with loans in arrears? [The 'Recovered' value will grow over time - arrears should only apply to 'current' loans.]
What have Recovered $ from Charged Off loans got to do with loans in arrears? [The 'Recovered' value will grow over time - arrears should only apply to 'current' loans.]
What a dumb a**e I am. The old RFQ problem. My apologies. As you were.
myles
14-05-2019, 09:17 PM
What a dumb a**e I am. The old RFQ problem. My apologies. As you were.
Me thinks it's Harmoney that needs to apologise for their shyte 'frontend' data :)
Bjauck
15-05-2019, 09:28 AM
E-mail from me & the response from Harmoney below, re. arrears...... :(:(
Thank you for your email.
There was a display issue with the syncing of the front and back end display. This affected the status for certain loans on populating/updating on the front end display (from your lender account). The team had made the appropriate changes which had fixed the issue.
The correct showing status is correct. Please note, that this is only a display issue and there is no actual cash movement affected. The operations team have an actual view of the backend system to reflect the live status of loans and I can assure you that investors have been paid correctly.
I hope this clarifies things.
Kind regards,
Yikes...that is a beautiful email. It should be framed. I know I often have front-end and back-end display issues! I don’t always know what is displayed either! Hopefully however I don’t have a team of people having a good view of my back end...
Still none the wiser if the arrears figure are correct but at least they are aware that their back end is not always in sync with their front end.
CageyB
15-05-2019, 02:26 PM
I have a tax question that might be silly but is hopefully relevant to others. I'm on a salary, and with the new IRD processes it looks like tax returns will be done automatically. That's fine, but I paid ~$1000 in service and lender fees to Harmoney this tax year, and according to Harmoney "The Service Fee or Lender Fee is deducted from repayments into the lender account and should be tax deductible." How should I go about claiming a deduction for this amount? I don't see any way to do so on the my IRD site. Do I have to wait until after the automated process is complete in August?
I have a tax question that might be silly but is hopefully relevant to others. I'm on a salary, and with the new IRD processes it looks like tax returns will be done automatically. That's fine, but I paid ~$1000 in service and lender fees to Harmoney this tax year, and according to Harmoney "The Service Fee or Lender Fee is deducted from repayments into the lender account and should be tax deductible." How should I go about claiming a deduction for this amount? I don't see any way to do so on the my IRD site. Do I have to wait until after the automated process is complete in August?
Don't wait for the IRD to do it. When all the information shows up on MyIRD do the return yourself. There is a selection available to claim expenses once you begin the process. I actually did my tax return the other day and manually put in all the information including my Harmoney deductions, a whopping $2.25.
Have just checked my bank account and my refund has just gone in, less than 48hours since I submitted it.
CageyB
15-05-2019, 03:02 PM
Don't wait for the IRD to do it. When all the information shows up on MyIRD do the return yourself. There is a selection available to claim expenses once you begin the process. I actually did my tax return the other day and manually put in all the information including my Harmoney deductions, a whopping $2.25.
Have just checked my bank account and my refund has just gone in, less than 48hours since I submitted it.
Via the "Claim expenses related to your income -> Add non-business expense" function on myIR?
Via the "Claim expenses related to your income -> Add non-business expense" function on myIR?
Yep. That's it.
leesal
18-05-2019, 08:43 AM
I have never been able to calculate an arrears value equal to what Harmoney show in the dashboard summary :(
Often there are individual loans flagged as being in arrears but have had recent payments and, conversely, individual loans that have not had a payment for well over a month that are not flagged as being in arrears. :confused:
My individual loan arrears sum is currently $445.75, the summary dashboard value is $518.67.
The details in the 'frontend' have always been wrong and as far as I can tell are still wrong. :t_down:
The backend is confusing!
Date
Status
Time in arrears (days)
LAI-00133312
05/07/2018
Current
1-30
LAI-00133312
05/07/2018
Current
1-30
LAI-00140705
08/10/2018
Current
1-30
LAI-00144720
05/11/2018
Current
1-30
LAI-00145319
06/11/2018
Current
1-30
LAI-00145327
06/11/2018
Current
1-30
LAI-00146060
09/11/2018
Current
1-30
LAI-00151261
07/01/2019
Current
1-30
LAI-00151261
07/01/2019
Current
1-30
LAI-00151536
08/01/2019
Current
1-30
LAI-00154121
05/02/2019
Current
1-30
However despite whatever HM is mucking up in the front-end, the back-end data has been consistent over the past week.
Loan availability was a little better over the last month. Hopefully that continues once they've sorted their general error's they've been experiencing have been fixed.
alistar_mid
22-05-2019, 03:56 PM
Via the "Claim expenses related to your income -> Add non-business expense" function on myIR?
yeah i just did it like that, IRD processed it pretty quick
Its a real pain that harmoney pay your tax for you at the wrong stage, pre fees not after.
Real hard to sell people the platform as an investment
"yeah returns are pretty good but you have to make a tax adjustment each year with the IRD cause harmoney over pay your tax" - not the greatest sales pitch makes it a hassle for people not used to doing accounting sh1t
Harmoney does the same way as anyone else does. The correct way. Your tax return is your responsibility not theirs.
Bjauck
23-05-2019, 12:19 PM
Harmoney does the same way as anyone else does. The correct way. Your tax return is your responsibility not theirs.
Squirrel deducts their fees and transfers to their reserve fund (that covers write-offs) prior to paying their P2P investors. RWT is then deducted from the net amount paid to P2P lenders.
Saamee
23-05-2019, 04:33 PM
Squirrel deducts their fees and transfers to their reserve fund (that covers write-offs) prior to paying their P2P investors. RWT is then deducted from the net amount paid to P2P lenders.
My understanding is not 100% as written above....
I understand it is only the Borrowers Reserve Fund Levy that pays into the Reserve Fund.
As per here >> https://www.squirrel.co.nz/invest/how-we-manage-risk
Borrowers Do NOT pay anything into the Reserve Fund.....
I stand to be corrected of course! :)
SilverBack
24-05-2019, 12:54 AM
How does this work? Loan is funded to 116% - presumably overloaded by the institutions. Somebody is going to miss out - hopefully not me.
10496
I have tackled Harmoney over this numerous times over the years. There is absolutely no excuse for this. It means that when you make an application to fund a loan and receive an order back that you actually do not have an verified order at all. It is no more nor less than an acknowledgement and you may or may not have your order satisfied.
I have designed many computer systems over the years and I can state categorically that the Harmoney processing system is absolute cr*p. It has been standard practice in IT for decades to lock records (as in a loan record) so that any orders against it are committed without any conflict from any other order. Harmoney usually get ****ty when I press them over their system failings but I don't care - they are amateurs when it comes to transaction processing. Apart from their ignorance, it really annoys me when I spend my time reviewing a loan, submitting an order, and receiving a verification only to eventually find out a few days later that the order failed - not even an email notification about it! I have to reconcile back to find what has happened. Such a waste of my time and so needless if they fixed their system to properly process.
I wish everyone complained about this every time it happens so that they learned that they have a serious issue that needs fixing.
myles
24-05-2019, 08:48 AM
Can't say I've ever seen a 'failed' loan in over $300K worth of loan purchases. I have 5 cancelled loans - my understanding is that a cancelled loan is one where the borrower pulls out (7 day cool off period is a legal requirement).?
The issue of the 116% loan funding is, I believe, only in the 'frontend', most likely when multiple lenders hit the 'Red' error (can't remember what it says) when they have tried to purchase more notes then are available - yes it shouldn't happen, but I've never seen it in the 'backend', where a purchase needs to be reversed. Perhaps I've just been lucky?
alistar_mid
28-05-2019, 10:28 AM
I have tackled Harmoney over this numerous times over the years. There is absolutely no excuse for this. It means that when you make an application to fund a loan and receive an order back that you actually do not have an verified order at all. It is no more nor less than an acknowledgement and you may or may not have your order satisfied.
I have designed many computer systems over the years and I can state categorically that the Harmoney processing system is absolute cr*p. It has been standard practice in IT for decades to lock records (as in a loan record) so that any orders against it are committed without any conflict from any other order. Harmoney usually get ****ty when I press them over their system failings but I don't care - they are amateurs when it comes to transaction processing. Apart from their ignorance, it really annoys me when I spend my time reviewing a loan, submitting an order, and receiving a verification only to eventually find out a few days later that the order failed - not even an email notification about it! I have to reconcile back to find what has happened. Such a waste of my time and so needless if they fixed their system to properly process.
I wish everyone complained about this every time it happens so that they learned that they have a serious issue that needs fixing.
well... you know what they say...
10566
alistar_mid
28-05-2019, 10:48 AM
Harmoney, is in theory, more attractive now given the OCR has dropped. We have seen a boost in yeild stocks (utilities etc) because of this as their dividends are now more attractive, so in theory this would hold the same for Harmoney. With a balanced well diversified portfolio that has a long term consistent return (I've been around 12% for the last 24 months or so), this would put more "value" on the Harmoney investment.
Speaking to a one of NZ's biggest fund managers over the weekend he stated that one of their competitors (another large NZ fund manager) had just gone into Harmoney, I forget who though!
Saamee
28-05-2019, 12:23 PM
Yes agree. Looks like this may be seconded by things over at Squirrel right now.....
10567
PennyPicker
29-05-2019, 01:35 PM
It has been standard practice in IT for decades to lock records (as in a loan record) so that any orders against it are committed without any conflict from any other order.
Couldn't help but laugh, I was reading your email while waiting for some acceptance tests to run where I've been 'mending' them to do exactly this!
I posted some time back, it's searchable; but IIRC Harmoney didn't write the system, they brought it from a chap and they skin it. If they don't have direct access to make changes/submit PRs, and this still holds true, they could be at the mercy of the development company on fixes and features.
alundracloud
30-05-2019, 03:15 PM
The lack of loan availability for the retail investors has been mentioned a lot recently, and I'm beyond the point of holding out for things to change. Harmoney is effectively dead, unfortunately..
This plot (and table) shows how easily I found it to grow a portfolio when I first started, compared to the most recent 6 months.
10578
10579
The steepness / gradient of the plot shows how easy or difficult I found it to invest. The 147 days for the last 100 loans is a bit misleading, as I didn't invest in any loans in Feb 2019, however, the drop-off is plain to see.
alistar_mid
31-05-2019, 03:24 PM
The lack of loan availability for the retail investors has been mentioned a lot recently, and I'm beyond the point of holding out for things to change. Harmoney is effectively dead, unfortunately..
This plot (and table) shows how easily I found it to grow a portfolio when I first started, compared to the most recent 6 months.
10578
10579
The steepness / gradient of the plot shows how easy or difficult I found it to invest. The 147 days for the last 100 loans is a bit misleading, as I didn't invest in any loans in Feb 2019, however, the drop-off is plain to see.
Harmoneys returns are becoming more attractive with lower interest rates, so there are more people wanting a peice of each loan now.
You just need to increase your notes per loan, if your'e doing 1, 2 notes per loan then there just isn't enough loan volume compared to demand to fill loans at a rate to deploy your capital like you have been used to, so increase the notes per loan
I am currently deploying $50k and I recon it will take just over a 2 months, i do 15 notes per loan which deploys nearly $10k a week.
alundracloud
31-05-2019, 03:38 PM
To invest in that many loans I would need to widen my loan criteria, which I'm not prepared to do.
alistar_mid
31-05-2019, 04:06 PM
To invest in that many loans I would need to widen my loan criteria, which I'm not prepared to do.
?
Did I not make it clear it wasn't an issue of investing in more loans, but more notes per loan?
Same loan volume (possible lower loan volume) MORE NOTES PER LOAN.
alundracloud
31-05-2019, 04:32 PM
Whoops! Good point
?
Did I not make it clear it wasn't an issue of investing in more loans, but more notes per loan?
Same loan volume (possible lower loan volume) MORE NOTES PER LOAN.
Harmoneys returns are becoming more attractive with lower interest rates, so there are more people wanting a peice of each loan now.
You just need to increase your notes per loan, if your'e doing 1, 2 notes per loan then there just isn't enough loan volume compared to demand to fill loans at a rate to deploy your capital like you have been used to, so increase the notes per loan
I am currently deploying $50k and I recon it will take just over a 2 months, i do 15 notes per loan which deploys nearly $10k a week.
I have also increased notes per loan to finally get cash down to about 3% and seem to be treading water with autolend and a few manual purchases. I was on the verge of removing cash. If i can get decent diversification at the new level I will up it again to try and get some growth.
The problem though is that the minute you increase exposure per loan you decrease diversification. Those of you having read my previous posts will know that I started out investing up to $1,000 per loan (for A). I refuse to alter my criteria to take more risk in a climate where, despite low interest rates forecast to remain for many more months/years, the headwinds facing our and global economies are growing. Consequently my Harmoney portfolio has dropped from $121k in January to $79k today. That isn't a function of other retailers taking more exposure, but that the quality of the offering has fallen.
myles
01-06-2019, 01:39 PM
I've been able to stay 'afloat' with a little over $120K, investing mostly 8 notes ($200) per loan in the B3-E5 range, taking only loans that I consider 'good' (all manual). Cash available floats in the range of $0 - $2,500. Have to keep on top of it though. Still in excess of 1000 loans, so diversification is still good.
I've been able to stay 'afloat' with a little over $120K, investing mostly 8 notes ($200) per loan in the B3-E5 range, taking only loans that I consider 'good' (all manual). Cash available floats in the range of $0 - $2,500. Have to keep on top of it though. Still in excess of 1000 loans, so diversification is still good.
Pretty much scales to my current investment per loan but I don't go below D5.
myles
01-06-2019, 04:40 PM
Pretty much scales to my current investment per loan but I don't go below D5.
Just for interest - this is what I calculate the return of my current loans as:
10589
Could be worthwhile taking some below D5?
My distribution:
10590
Just for interest - this is what I calculate the return of my current loans as:
10589
Could be worthwhile taking some below D5?
My distribution:
10590
My thinking was that my returns were higher than retail with just A-D so adding greater risk wasn't worth it. When they did the big rate cut I stopped doing the lower A's but have since crept back a little rather than have cash. I should revisit. Dreaded tax returns first though!
alistar_mid
02-06-2019, 09:13 AM
The problem though is that the minute you increase exposure per loan you decrease diversification. Those of you having read my previous posts will know that I started out investing up to $1,000 per loan (for A). I refuse to alter my criteria to take more risk in a climate where, despite low interest rates forecast to remain for many more months/years, the headwinds facing our and global economies are growing. Consequently my Harmoney portfolio has dropped from $121k in January to $79k today. That isn't a function of other retailers taking more exposure, but that the quality of the offering has fallen.
I'm fine with it, I'm at about $60k now, another $40k in blocks of $400 is still 100 loans.
And its the relative return to the risk free rate (ie maybe a bond fund at 4%), there maybe headwinds coming but I'm still getting 12%, this has to catastrophically drop to around 4% for me to lose out
I'm probably just going to "cycle" money in, then have it auto withdraw over time and take exposure back down to $50k from $100k, sending the weekly proceeds into index funds.
[QUOTE=alistar_mid; this has to catastrophically drop to around 4% for me to lose out.[/QUOTE]
No argument on that score Alistair. Personally, I'm processing a complete review of all my investment strategies and haven't yet got comfortable with changing the criteria for Harmoney, not helped by the size of loans I am seeing on the dashboard.
beacon
02-06-2019, 12:40 PM
The problem though is that the minute you increase exposure per loan you decrease diversification. .... I refuse to alter my criteria to take more risk in a climate where, despite low interest rates forecast to remain for many more months/years, the headwinds facing our and global economies are growing. Consequently my Harmoney portfolio has dropped from $121k in January to $79k today. That isn't a function of other retailers taking more exposure, but that the quality of the offering has fallen.
My Harmoney lending experience and withdrawal proportions to date exactly mirror yours BJ1, although I also invested in riskier grades. I refuse to relax my lending criteria or increase the number of notes/loan to compensate for the fall in loan quality and quantity, as risk rises for me without a commensurate rise in return. So, I'm gradually taking my money off the Harmoney table. Absolutely disgusted with Harmoney unashamedly continuing to flaunt the P2P spirit by filling wholesalers over retail peers, and FMA turning a blind eye to it.
Sent some funds Zagga's way, due to loans being secured there, but they lack consolidated lender-friendly reporting and their interest repayments are haphazard at best. Might give them a miss too, if things don't change soon.
Cool Bear
04-06-2019, 11:39 AM
J
My distribution:
10590
Hi Myles
What is your current (Harmoney's) RAR?
The account I run for some family members with about 1800 current/active loans, has the following distribution and RAR.
However, as this newish account had just invested for 18 months, I am wary that it had not felt the effects of charge-off yet, and that is why the RAR is still high.
alistar_mid
04-06-2019, 12:21 PM
My Harmoney lending experience and withdrawal proportions to date exactly mirror yours BJ1, although I also invested in riskier grades. I refuse to relax my lending criteria or increase the number of notes/loan to compensate for the fall in loan quality and quantity, as risk rises for me without a commensurate rise in return. So, I'm gradually taking my money off the Harmoney table. Absolutely disgusted with Harmoney unashamedly continuing to flaunt the P2P spirit by filling wholesalers over retail peers, and FMA turning a blind eye to it.
Sent some funds Zagga's way, due to loans being secured there, but they lack consolidated lender-friendly reporting and their interest repayments are haphazard at best. Might give them a miss too, if things don't change soon.
Can you quantify the fall in loan quality? - do you mean the distribution has moved to more riskier grades, or they don't "look" as good, or your defaults are up?
The return is actually better now too compared to the risk free rate in the market... thats why more and more institutionals are getting in on it.
Also, like I have said, I have no problems getting my capital deployed. So not sure what your'e "disgusted" about.
beacon
04-06-2019, 12:46 PM
Can you quantify the fall in loan quality? - do you mean the distribution has moved to more riskier grades, or they don't "look" as good, or your defaults are up?
The return is actually better now too compared to the risk free rate in the market... thats why more and more institutionals are getting in on it.
Also, like I have said, I have no problems getting my capital deployed. So not sure what your'e "disgusted" about.
I have already elaborated in recent past posts Alistair, about Harmoney loan "quality" and "quantity" issues, as well as reasons for my "disgust" with Harmoney, so I won't regurgitate them again, as I have no axe to grind against them. You are welcome to refer back in the forum about various posts about them by various members.
OCR cut has made all existing debt more valuable, and that includes Harmoney loans - but OCR cut signifies rising headwinds, and merits increased caution in capital allocation. I choose to act accordingly.
I would rather not speculate on why institutionals are getting in on Harmoney, but am happy for you that you have successfully improvised to keep your capital in the play. Best of luck! :)
myles
04-06-2019, 05:01 PM
Hi Myles
What is your current (Harmoney's) RAR?
The account I run for some family members with about 1800 current/active loans, has the following distribution and RAR.
However, as this newish account had just invested for 18 months, I am wary that it had not felt the effects of charge-off yet, and that is why the RAR is still high.
RAR is currently 15.87%. It bounces around a little, but has been stable for more than 10 months +/- 0.2%.
10596
Note: the bulk of the investment was done quickly so RAR stabilised relatively quickly as well.
IntheRearWithTheGear
10-06-2019, 10:20 AM
Anybody else getting the red "Not you but us" message all the time this morning ? (ie not the normal every so often)
beacon
10-06-2019, 10:21 AM
Anybody else getting the red "Not you but us" message all the time this morning ? (ie not the normal every so often)
Aye, me too
alundracloud
10-06-2019, 10:28 AM
Yes. I'm unable to purchase a single note in any loan.
Anybody else getting the red "Not you but us" message all the time this morning ? (ie not the normal every so often)
IntheRearWithTheGear
10-06-2019, 11:01 AM
Yes. I'm unable to purchase a single note in any loan.
Seems fixed now.
permutation
11-06-2019, 09:58 AM
Yesterday was the first time in my 4 years membership that Harmoney have not paid fund withdrawls to my bank account.
The money is still sitting in "uncleared withdrawals", lucky I wasn't relying on payment this time.
Does anyone else have this problem??
IntheRearWithTheGear
11-06-2019, 10:09 AM
Yesterday was the first time in my 4 years membership that Harmoney have not paid fund withdrawls to my bank account.
The money is still sitting in "uncleared withdrawals", lucky I wasn't relying on payment this time.
Does anyone else have this problem??
They have a new message on their site about lender balances when you login in and get your rar rating.
Anyone else had an email from Harmoney asking for explanation (and proof) of how your investment was financed? Short of a forensic analysis of the last 30+ years of my financial life I am stumped on how to proceed!
Anyone else had an email from Harmoney asking for explanation (and proof) of how your investment was financed? Short of a forensic analysis of the last 30+ years of my financial life I am stumped on how to proceed!
Haven't received one. Personally, all this money laundering rubbish should be ignored - deposits to Harmoney's bank account came from another bank account so why explain the last leg of a series of transactions.
Chickens
12-06-2019, 09:28 PM
I'm in the process of opening a new account with Harmoney, and that's one of the questions in the application form, and I'm guessing they won't be ignoring it if I don't offer a satisfactory explanation for fear of the FMA.
I'm going to use a recently expired Term Deposit as evidence of "wealth".
They haven't asked that question of my existing Harmoney accounts which are several years old.
I'm in the process of opening a new account with Harmoney, and that's one of the questions in the application form, and I'm guessing they won't be ignoring it if I don't offer a satisfactory explanation for fear of the FMA.
I'm going to use a recently expired Term Deposit as evidence of "wealth".
They haven't asked that question of my existing Harmoney accounts which are several years old.
I was told a bank statement would not be sufficient evidence. You need to go back a step to prove how the fund were originated eg if from rent then provide tenancy agreement and ownership documents. But then how do you prove that you bought the property with honest money etc etc. Orwellian!
Cool Bear
13-06-2019, 04:17 PM
Anyone else had an email from Harmoney asking for explanation (and proof) of how your investment was financed? Short of a forensic analysis of the last 30+ years of my financial life I am stumped on how to proceed!
Yes, I received one. A real pain in the ass to reply... Quite a bit of tooing and froing. It is all courtesy of Uncle Sam imposing its might on all other countries. Talk about world domination. Same thing if you try to open a business bank account too.
Another 7% by number and 6% by $ of my loans repaid in the June month. Most were written between November18 and January 19. It seems Harmony is still targeting existing borrowers for rewrites. I've now had to pull out 61% of my original cash deposits because there just aren't the volume of loans meeting my criteria.
beacon
05-07-2019, 10:26 AM
I've now had to pull out 61% of my original cash deposits because there just aren't the volume of loans meeting my criteria.
My withdrawals are still rising too, similar reasons, now over 35%. Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock ...
permutation
17-07-2019, 08:51 AM
Has anyone had Loan 000112841 Charged Off?- There is no charge-off date.
Soolaimon
17-07-2019, 09:30 AM
Has anyone had Loan 000112841 Charged Off?- There is no charge-off date.
Yes, I had that one. Not pretty!! $50 invested, 0.45c Principal paid. $14.59 Interest, $2.55 Fees. I don't see any charge off date. Also, first time going back over loans for some months and concerned at the increase in arrears.
leesal
17-07-2019, 05:35 PM
Yes, I had that one. Not pretty!! $50 invested, 0.45c Principal paid. $14.59 Interest, $2.55 Fees. I don't see any charge off date. Also, first time going back over loans for some months and concerned at the increase in arrears.
Also LAI-00133080 - Charged Off (121-180). No date
10683
Paddles
23-07-2019, 11:45 AM
Anyone invested in LN LAI-00153997?
This loan has gone from never being in arrears to 121-180 days in arrears overnight and all the repayments that have been made until now have been reversed.
leesal
24-07-2019, 07:27 AM
Anyone invested in LN LAI-00153997?
This loan has gone from never being in arrears to 121-180 days in arrears overnight and all the repayments that have been made until now have been reversed.
I've got that loan.Good spot on the payments. This is my downloaded info from last friday. Might pay to ask HM about it.
Loan note
Date
Status
Time in arrears (days)
Grade
Interest rate
Outstanding principal
Interest earned
Term (months)
Payments remaining
You invested
Payment due
Total Loan Amount
Last Payment Date
Last Payment Amount
Payments to Date
Principal
Gross Int Paid
Service / Lender Fee
LAI-00153997
01/02/2019
Current
121-180
B3
15.8
22.96
1.6
60
60
25
01/08/2019
41200
04/07/2019
0.02
3.64
2.04
1.6
0.32
LOAN DETAILS (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/lender/) | BORROWER DETAILS (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/lender/)
TOTAL LOAN AMOUNT:$41,200.00
MAXIMUM TERM:60 months
RECEIVED PAYMENTS
LAST PAYMENT DATE:Jul 17, 2019
LAST PAYMENT AMOUNT:$0.15
PAYMENTS TO DATE:$0.26
PRINCIPAL:$0.00
GROSS INT. PAID:$0.26
LENDER FEES
SERVICE / LENDER FEE:$0.05
Paddles
24-07-2019, 02:36 PM
I've got that loan.Good spot on the payments. This is my downloaded info from last friday. Might pay to ask HM about it.
Loan note
Date
Status
Time in arrears (days)
Grade
Interest rate
Outstanding principal
Interest earned
Term (months)
Payments remaining
You invested
Payment due
Total Loan Amount
Last Payment Date
Last Payment Amount
Payments to Date
Principal
Gross Int Paid
Service / Lender Fee
LAI-00153997
01/02/2019
Current
121-180
B3
15.8
22.96
1.6
60
60
25
01/08/2019
41200
04/07/2019
0.02
3.64
2.04
1.6
0.32
LOAN DETAILS (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/lender/) | BORROWER DETAILS (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/lender/)
TOTAL LOAN AMOUNT:$41,200.00
MAXIMUM TERM:60 months
RECEIVED PAYMENTS
LAST PAYMENT DATE:Jul 17, 2019
LAST PAYMENT AMOUNT:$0.15
PAYMENTS TO DATE:$0.26
PRINCIPAL:$0.00
GROSS INT. PAID:$0.26
LENDER FEES
SERVICE / LENDER FEE:$0.05
This is the response I've received from Harmony.
So the dashboard is not a true reflection on the status of your loans. What a joke!
10691
https://www.interest.co.nz/banking/100850/online-lender-harmoney-reports-after-tax-gain-722-million-and-vastly-increased-assets
nickw
24-07-2019, 04:12 PM
On the 2nd July, I had almost exactly the same response for a different question from a different lending officer about arrears not showing. It would seem that this is a standard response, and not a lot of thought has gone into this.
It clearly cannot be a simple matter of the "back end" not knowing what the "front end" is doing - or visa versa, I can accept that something might not have been updated, but to have interest posted many times and then reversed out months later would seem to be much more serious.
I also have this loan and have emailed my own question to Harmoney. I do think we deserve a better response than the one received.
beacon
25-07-2019, 09:27 AM
https://www.interest.co.nz/banking/100850/online-lender-harmoney-reports-after-tax-gain-722-million-and-vastly-increased-assets
Interesting change in marketing tactics. Their systems definitely need a thorough overhaul, and could benefit from external oversight. Now that Harmoney is no longer advertising itself as a P2P (implicit acceptance that it isn't a true P2P afterall), perhaps the regulators might consider reassigning it out of the P2P license to a more appropriate one (which also means stricter regulatory control, external audits and reporting requirements).
nickw
25-07-2019, 01:02 PM
This is the response I've received from Harmony.
So the dashboard is not a true reflection on the status of your loans. What a joke!
10691
I have had a good response from harmoney this morning, and although it would have been nice if the loan was reversed, fixed and reapplied all at the same time, it didn't and it took a bit longer. Their response was as follows.
Thank you for your patience in this matter.
We have looked a little further into LAI-00153997 and can confirm that this loan is in Active Good standing, please refer to details below:
There was a $30 payment on the loan from Jan 2019 which had a date issue and had to be reversed.
To be able to apply the Jan payment correctly, we had to reverse all payments applied on the loan after (from Jan 2019 to July 2019).
The Operations team is working on fixing the payments but were not able to complete this during business hours, and the end of day job pushed the loan into active bad standing - we usually aim to fix any issues during one business day, but it didn't happen in this case.
The active bad standing status was synced to the front end and this is what you see
The loan is in Active good standing and will get back into the correct status, once Operations have applied the payments correctly. We are aiming to complete this urgently.
We apologize for the miscommunication we sent earlier, and for the inconvenience caused.
leesal
25-07-2019, 02:54 PM
I have had a good response from harmoney this morning, and although it would have been nice if the loan was reversed, fixed and reapplied all at the same time, it didn't and it took a bit longer. Their response was as follows.
Thank you for your patience in this matter.
We have looked a little further into LAI-00153997 and can confirm that this loan is in Active Good standing, please refer to details below:
There was a $30 payment on the loan from Jan 2019 which had a date issue and had to be reversed.
To be able to apply the Jan payment correctly, we had to reverse all payments applied on the loan after (from Jan 2019 to July 2019).
The Operations team is working on fixing the payments but were not able to complete this during business hours, and the end of day job pushed the loan into active bad standing - we usually aim to fix any issues during one business day, but it didn't happen in this case.
The active bad standing status was synced to the front end and this is what you see
The loan is in Active good standing and will get back into the correct status, once Operations have applied the payments correctly. We are aiming to complete this urgently.
We apologize for the miscommunication we sent earlier, and for the inconvenience caused.
Good to hear that HM have gone to the effort. Although it is a concern, they've had to reverse out a whole chain of payments to fix a minor error. The system they operate can't be all that great.
I see the status of LAI-00153997 has moved to Arrears (0). Feeling a little more happier about that note and HM!
Has anyone else had issues with auto-refresh in Chrome?
Most days - while at my desk- I have a second screen running which is on auto refresh, so keeps me logged in and seeing any new listings. Yesterday it started to log me out so then miss any new loans Same thing occurred on a second computer.
spudooli
13-08-2019, 01:23 PM
Has anyone else had issues with auto-refresh in Chrome?
Most days - while at my desk- I have a second screen running which is on auto refresh, so keeps me logged in and seeing any new listings. Yesterday it started to log me out so then miss any new loans Same thing occurred on a second computer.
Yep, I'm seeing the same thing. Haven't figured out if it's a change yet in Chrome, the refresher extension or the Harmoney website.
Saamee
13-08-2019, 06:36 PM
Has anyone else had issues with auto-refresh in Chrome?
Most days - while at my desk- I have a second screen running which is on auto refresh, so keeps me logged in and seeing any new listings. Yesterday it started to log me out so then miss any new loans Same thing occurred on a second computer.
I'm using Easy Auto Refresh over at Lending Crowd - All working OK there!
andrewfreestuff
14-08-2019, 11:53 AM
Yep, I'm seeing the same thing. Haven't figured out if it's a change yet in Chrome, the refresher extension or the Harmoney website.
I saw the same thing, using a 3min refresher in Firefox. Perhaps yesterday there was an issue at Harmony with the period it takes for you to be auto logged out.
Saamee
14-08-2019, 05:14 PM
Harmoney News @ Interest.co.nz Today....
HARMONEY BRINGS IN NEW CEO
Harmoney says David Stevens will take the reins from founder Neil Roberts as CEO early in 2020. The licensed peer-to-peer lender says this will free up Roberts, who is also Harmoney's biggest shareholder, to focus on strategy and product. Stevens most recently led the start-up MiFund, a medical payment options provider for patients in Australia. There he was "instrumental" in securing the Bank of Queensland as a 35% equity holder in MiFund, Harmoney says. Prior to that role Stevens was CFO of FlexiGroup, leading the negotiations when the Aussie firm bought Fisher & Paykel Finance.
simplesimplesimple
22-08-2019, 06:24 AM
Hi all - I've been watching this thread for a while. Thanks for all the information...
Do people still feel it's worthwhile investing here, or Lending Crowd, or...?
I am not clear how much time would be involved to keep $100K employed in not-crazy-risk loans, and whether I'd be likely to receive a return in excess of 10%.
Thanks for any help!
Simple
IMHO don't bother trying Harmoney. They have admitted in the interest.co.nz article posted by Wsp on 24/7 above that they aren't even trying to be P2P anymore, and therefore they offer very few loans. I think they're just waiting until we all get fed up & leave rather than kicking us off.
Peer to peer-turned "online" lender Harmoney has posted a maiden after-tax profit, courtesy of adoption of a new accounting standard that boosted its after-tax earnings by $7.5 million.
Harmoney, which was the first licensed P2P lender in New Zealand, but which has dropped the P2P description of itself in favour of "online" following changes in the way it operates, reported a $7.22 million after-tax profit for the year to March 31,2019, compared with an after tax loss of $1.84 million a year ago.
myles
25-08-2019, 09:58 AM
Simple, I have around $130K invested in Harmoney at the moment (details outlined if you go back through this thread).
You have to keep on top of it to keep that amount invested, however there are just enough loans that meet my fairly strict parameters to stay invested. Note that I'm investing around $200 per loan (not the best option if you are investing only a small amount since you want good diversification - however for $100K, IMO, there is no problem with this amount).
My RAR is slowly climbing due to better investment choices, now at just over 16%. My calculated return (XIRR) is currently 14.7% after tax (minimum tax rate of 10.5% though), a little better after claiming deductions.
To get this sort of return you need to be investing in C's, D's and E's. From my loans, D's and lower E's are by far the best performers (interest vs defaults), but that is dependant on loan selection and potential risk with these loans.
Harmony's current adverts (TV) are again stating P2P lending, which in my opinion is what Harmoney loans are. I don't believe they are getting out of P2P lending, they are making good money out of it, however, this type of lending/investing is now available on a number of platforms, so has become harder to attract the volume of loans that were experienced in the past. Harmoney themselves have diversified into Australia and other forms of lending so perhaps are a little less focused on this platform, but I personally don't see them getting out any time soon.
IMO, Harmony offers the best platform for usability, details on loans, details on investment etc.
If you want an invest and forget type experience you could try Zagga, but returns are significantly lower.
Cool Bear
28-08-2019, 10:16 AM
Hi all - I've been watching this thread for a while. Thanks for all the information...
Do people still feel it's worthwhile investing here, or Lending Crowd, or...?
I am not clear how much time would be involved to keep $100K employed in not-crazy-risk loans, and whether I'd be likely to receive a return in excess of 10%.
Thanks for any help!
Simple
Hi Simple
I invest in Harmoney on behalf of some friends and family members via 2 companies.
If my target is 10% before tax and I do not want to spend too much time, it is actually very easy. I will just put the 100k into Harmoney (in one lump sum) and set autoloan to take up every loan at say $50 or $100 per loan. My RAR will definitely be more than 10%, and may even be higher than Harmoney's average of 12+% for retail. And that is after accounting for fees and writeoffs - which could be about 20+% of your gross interest. My gross interest before any deductions would likely to be between 14 to 20%.
My actual returns (net interest) before tax will be about 10% less than my RAR because of the cash sitting idle in Harmoney waiting for the autolending but the end result should still be over my target of 10%.
The above is both from experience and from Harmoney published stats - https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics?_ga=2.231533655.998121364.1496317999-1392088060.1490774573.
So, almost set and forget.
ps.. to cover my ass, please note that I am in no position to give financial advice and the above is an opinion only and cannot be taken to be financial advice in any manner or form:D
Hi Simple
I invest in Harmoney on behalf of some friends and family members via 2 companies.
If my target is 10% before tax and I do not want to spend too much time, it is actually very easy. I will just put the 100k into Harmoney (in one lump sum) and set autoloan to take up every loan at say $50 or $100 per loan. My RAR will definitely be more than 10%, and may even be higher than Harmoney's average of 12+% for retail. And that is after accounting for fees and writeoffs - which could be about 20+% of your gross interest. My gross interest before any deductions would likely to be between 14 to 20%.
My actual returns (net interest) before tax will be about 10% less than my RAR because of the cash sitting idle in Harmoney waiting for the autolending but the end result should still be over my target of 10%.
The above is both from experience and from Harmoney published stats - https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics?_ga=2.231533655.998121364.1496317999-1392088060.1490774573.
So, almost set and forget.
ps.. to cover my ass, please note that I am in no position to give financial advice and the above is an opinion only and cannot be taken to be financial advice in any manner or form:D
Ha, but I tend to agree!
My reinvestment rate scales to approx $140 per loan on a $100k portfolio and I find that I am now stable with autolend and quite strict filters.
leesal
28-08-2019, 12:55 PM
Top insights for Simple guys!
Am in the active camp like Myles, slogging away, but returns not as good as his - 15% RAR
Coolbear OOI how much cash do you have sitting idle to trigger Autolend to pickup most loans? I have a 1-3k float idle on 70k and only get the rubbish.
Cool Bear
28-08-2019, 03:23 PM
Top insights for Simple guys!
Am in the active camp like Myles, slogging away, but returns not as good as his - 15% RAR
Coolbear OOI how much cash do you have sitting idle to trigger Autolend to pickup most loans? I have a 1-3k float idle on 70k and only get the rubbish.
I have too much sitting in cash. With bank rates (eg ANZ Call account) at just 0.1%, I tend to leave the cash there unless the companies need it to pay some other commitments. As a percentage of outstanding loans, cash balance is usually a very high 10+%. Too b#@# high!!
leesal
28-08-2019, 06:04 PM
I have too much sitting in cash. With bank rates (eg ANZ Call account) at just 0.1%, I tend to leave the cash there unless the companies need it to pay some other commitments. As a percentage of outstanding loans, cash balance is usually a very high 10+%. Too b#@# high!!
I getcha anything better then sitting in the bank!
Some general advice to newbies... don't mix active invest and passive without a decent filter - else you'll autoloan the dregs
simplesimplesimple
30-08-2019, 06:48 AM
Thanks for the replies guys! Much appreciated. Might give it a crack soon. Thanks again
joker
31-08-2019, 10:16 PM
Wow!! What's happened here? Platform RAR is 16.11% all driven by a huge jump in institutional investor returns...
10743
10744
Wow!! What's happened here? Platform RAR is 16.11% all driven by a huge jump in institutional investor returns...
10743
10744
Weird! Maybe it represents Harmoney's own investing with no fees?
jallison
01-09-2019, 01:47 PM
No, looks like they have finally thrown all retail investors out with the bathwater and institutional investors are now able to cherry pick their loans
Given the time line from 2014 the graph depicts an impossible situation. It's rubbish.
leesal
02-09-2019, 08:20 AM
Given the time line from 2014 the graph depicts an impossible situation. It's rubbish.
this.
False data, am sure will be fixed shortly
Agree, it would take a massive volume to shift the historical measure that much. Beggars belief that such a graph could be published without someone thinking it's either wrong or requires explanation!
Vagabond47
03-09-2019, 10:45 AM
And today the RAR graph is fixed.. or the fix is in.. depending on how much of a conspiracy theory fan you are...
Has anybody else noticed that we no longer have charged off loans, we have 'debt sold' loans? Still has the same effect on my 'net charged off principal' but obviously a better result for Harmoney. :mad ;:
I can't get an exported report to update my records for end of month. Anyone else also?
Finally got a report to find another 10.5% of my loans (by number) were repaid in August. Seems Harmoney is still marketing rewrites very heavily.
Soolaimon
17-09-2019, 05:35 PM
I see earlier today that Harmoney had only listed 5 loans for around 90k in 24 hours. Is this the normal now? I am still withdrawing and transferring to Lending Crowd. Today 8 or more loans for well over 100k in value.
leesal
18-09-2019, 03:15 PM
I'd say just a bad day for HM.
This year so far have increase Harmoney Loans by 20k over last year. There is generally more loans on Harmoney then any other platform.
I dislike my decisions proving poor, so I have a strict set of criteria for lending through Harmoney, with decreasing exposure on decreasing total loan size as the risk grade rises. Since harmony started lending its "own" money I have seen many fewer loans which meet my criteria and notice that I am not seeing many of the loans which are being included in the daily statistics - most of the 36 month and smaller size loans don't appear in my searches. Having experienced 5 decades of lending and 4 major market corrections, I will not chase returns by taking greater risk - which I am seeing other people doing now that Trump is upsetting the world markets and reserve banks are destroying passive returns. Generally, the time to chase is in the year after a bottom and not at market peak.
beacon
20-09-2019, 10:48 AM
I have seen many fewer loans which meet my criteria and notice that I am not seeing many of the loans which are being included in the daily statistics - most of the 36 month and smaller size loans don't appear in my searches. Having experienced 5 decades of lending and 4 major market corrections, I will not chase returns by taking greater risk - which I am seeing other people doing ...
Ditto BJ1. Due to both diminishing loan quantity and quality available to retail investors now, I for one, have continued my withdrawals. Just under half my peak investment has been cashed out now. :t_down:
Bjauck
20-09-2019, 11:21 AM
Ditto BJ1. Due to both diminishing loan quantity and quality available to retail investors now, I for one, have continued my withdrawals. Just under half my peak investment has been cashed out now. :t_down: There seems to be a conflict between the P2P aspect and the traditional finance company aspect. Shouldn't Harmoney be either the one or the other? It seems the temptation is for Harmoney to favour its big corporate lenders?
myles
22-09-2019, 08:56 AM
A very, very interesting podcast (transcript also available) of the ins and outs of Harmoney:
Podcast 216: Neil Roberts and David Stevens of Harmoney (https://www.lendacademy.com/podcast-216-neil-roberts-and-david-stevens-of-harmoney/)
Yes Myles. Some definite avoidance around the question of exiting the peer part of the business. They are there to make money for themselves and will continue to expand their funding bases to be owner lenders, not P2P.
leesal
22-09-2019, 12:44 PM
Cheers for putting that up Myles. This bit says it all :(
Peter: Right, so are you going to eventually shut down the peer-to-peer side of the business?
David: No, look I think we’re sort of…I said we look at the diversity of the business in funding. At this point in time, we’ll obviously look to…over time, we’ll continue to assess that, but certainly, we’ve got a lot of lenders on the books at the moment and that does create that diversity for us which is a good position to be in.
"we've been slowly operating a pivot and moving to lending our ownmoney which we started to do December last year and we're rapidly, you know, picking that sideof our business up because the regulations, particularly in New Zealand are such that we don'tsee a viable model for us doing peer-to-peer lending way into the future and we are sort ofmanaging that and have been for some time"
PennyPicker
26-09-2019, 03:12 PM
Bit more information from today's Interest.co.nz article; https://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/101804/harmoneys-neil-roberts-says-p2p-lender-which-launched-september-2014-has.
If they complete the capital raise, could that money be used to buy out existing retail investor loans?
Bit more information from today's Interest.co.nz article; https://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/101804/harmoneys-neil-roberts-says-p2p-lender-which-launched-september-2014-has.
If they complete the capital raise, could that money be used to buy out existing retail investor loans?
An extra $30m of equity would surely be way too little.
Saamee
27-09-2019, 08:11 AM
More written at interest.co.nz this morning including comments from Squirrel & Lending Crowd....
https://www.interest.co.nz/business/101824/competitors-and-regulators-weigh-harmoney-founder-neil-roberts-view-theres-no-viable
beacon
27-09-2019, 11:09 AM
I think Harmoney got greedy, and strayed out of its permit scope too much by increasingly listening to and trying cater to the instos alone - in the end even at the cost of its "retail" peers. It isn't graceful to blame regulations for your own follies. And by playing the blame game, one misses the opportunity to learn from one's mistakes...
P2P will survive in NZ, with or without Harmoney. Thanks to the efforts and vigilance of ComCom and FMA etc., P2P in NZ is in much better shape than in some of the other countries around the world.
If Harmoney quits, other fintechs will pick up the slack and grow and evolve, and newer players will come - even in a small market like NZ, because the Aussie Banking cartel simply won't change its ways here. It is for Harmoney to decide whether it wants to play by the P2P rules or not, if it wants to play in the P2P space.
10785
This is the quality the retail lenders are offered - after Harmoney picks the respectable stuff first?:D
Saamee
30-09-2019, 11:59 AM
This is the quality the retail lenders are offered - after Harmoney picks the respectable stuff first?:D
I really like Re-Writes.... Showing their commitment to the cause..... I would not have an issue with those loans!
joker
30-09-2019, 09:36 PM
I really like Re-Writes.... Showing their commitment to the cause..... I would not have an issue with those loans!
I have an issue...one's repayments are close to a third of their net income and the other is nearly half. That's not responsible lending and when they can't afford the repayments we lenders will carry the can as the borrowers will have a justifiable out resultant from the irresponsible lending!
Bjauck
01-10-2019, 11:04 AM
10785
This is the quality the retail lenders are offered - after Harmoney picks the respectable stuff first?:D
Harmoney have made statements which basically state that they are shifting away from the retail P2P. Is there any independent protection oversight for their retail P2P lenders to make sure that Harmoney does not just provide the "dregs" of the loans for the retail P2P lenders, whom it seems are now just a distracting annoyance for Harmoney?
It is up to lenders to winnow the offering Bjauck - anyone taking on the two loans above has a much higher risk profile than I. The loans were filled so either there were a lot of "desperate" Retail lenders or the main wholesale lenders were used to fill the void. Although I am frustrated by the quality of loans on offer to Retail, I am more concerned that Harmoney continues to provide satisfactory management services on those loans that Retail are invested in, and not focus its resources on its own book. After reviewing my loans in arrears over recent months, I feel that Retail can have no guarantee on this matter.
Bjauck
01-10-2019, 04:22 PM
I understand that individual retail investors/lenders make a selection out of those loans that Harmoney makes available to them. However Harmoney may have already winnowed the loans to favour themselves or other corporate sweethearts.
As Harmoney is a mixed P2P/Traditional Finance Company do the retail investors/lenders, who tend to be less sophisticated than the corporate lenders, have any protection from such discrimination arising within Harmoney and of which they may not even be aware?
We are becoming such a small % it would surely hardly be worth taking on crappy loans and sifting them to retail. Clearly there is a lot of competition for P2P exposure so not surprising that the loans that hang around tend to be the dregs that the algorithm missed! I understand the frustrations but if you really don't trust them best stop investing. If I thought they were capable of such cynical behavior I would certainly stop investing. I think Harmoney has been captured by its financiers. Hopefully Lending Crowd can step up and deliver the benefits of the P2P to both borrowers and lenders.
My possibly final observation on the matter - it's only since Harmoney borrowed bank money and started investing in its own right that all the changes to loan quality, quantity and substantially increased rewrites have occurred. If it looks, talks, walks like a duck.............
My possibly final observation on the matter - it's only since Harmoney borrowed bank money and started investing in its own right that all the changes to loan quality, quantity and substantially increased rewrites have occurred. If it looks, talks, walks like a duck.............
In my experience substantial rewrites have been occuring since the begining.
Bjauck
02-10-2019, 05:04 PM
We are becoming such a small % it would surely hardly be worth taking on crappy loans and sifting them to retail. Clearly there is a lot of competition for P2P exposure so not surprising that the loans that hang around tend to be the dregs that the algorithm missed! I understand the frustrations but if you really don't trust them best stop investing..... No...if there is a possibility of discriminatory behaviour favouring corporate lenders over its retail P2P lenders by a P2P licensed operator shouldn’t it indicate that the P2P regulatory environment is inadequate?
Sure that is what happened in the past in NZ - retail investors have felt that the NZ financial environment operates under the law of the jungle. Hence one of the reasons why we end up investing so much in expensive residential real estate instead. Is that a difference between NZ and (other) developed countries?
No...if there is a possibility of discriminatory behaviour favouring corporate lenders over its retail P2P lenders by a P2P licensed operator shouldn’t it indicate that the P2P regulatory environment is inadequate?
Sure that is what happened in the past in NZ - retail investors have felt that the NZ financial environment operates under the law of the jungle. Hence we end up investing so much in expensive residential real estate instead. Is that the difference between NZ and (other) developed countries? NZ consequently has a smaller percentage of household assets invested in financial investments.
I don't disagree with you in a wider sense. But for Harmoney to be systematically operating two algorithms or manually biffing mis-priced loans to retail would be quite outrageous to me and seems unlikely. Possible I suppose, and maybe they could even justify it with commercial arguments. I would be very interested if others think this is probable. Certainly doesn't give you a warm feeling to know that there is a parallel platform with undisclosed RAR but I haven't visited the disclosures lately so maybe it is covered off somewhere.
Toukshare
15-10-2019, 09:50 AM
Hi,
Newbie to the forum, and very grateful for the knowledge and advice shared here by you good people.
I have read your whole thread (took me a few weeks!) and I see that you guys have compiled some really interesting and complex reports to try and identify likely defaults and arrears.
My first question to you is: isn't that analysis a bit moot when borrowers can lie through their teeth during their application? I know Harmoney will want to see bank statements, ID and proof of income, but as for marital status, and especially purpose of loan, anyone can put 'education expenses' instead of 'holiday expenses' as it clearly looks better. Given that sometimes the declared monthly income is clearly wrong, how robust are Harmoney's processes for verifying information? I have huge doubts.
2nd question: I have my Chrome browser on auto-refresh (60s) but every 12-15 minutes or so it still says "you've been logged out" asks me to log in again, which is very annoying. LendingCrowd website does not do this. Do you guys have the same issue?
3rd question: I only recently passed the $10,000 outstanding principal, and my understanding is that I am being charged fees of 17.5% of gross interest instead of 20%, but is that only for loans taken after I went from below $10k to over? Or will all my gross interest (even for my first loans) from now on be charged at 17.5%?
4th point - there were discussions around why does Harmoney charge tax on gross interest, I know it is annoying but it's not their fault, it's the law, and this is because the law has not differentiated between P2P investing and normal passive bank term deposit investing. RWT applicable on gross interest, not Harmoney's fault. The law is an ass in this case. Maybe Harmoney should have pushed more for a special regime for P2P but they haven't (so maybe they're at fault on this point after all).
Speaking of tax, have all of you put this investment in your kids name/IRD no, or yours? Kids would get 10.5% RWT rate, would they not? (unless they already earn, but I am talking young kids, under the age of 10)
I don't have a RAR yet, I've only been in 2 months, I believe it kicks in at 3, but will share when Harmoney gives it to me. No XIRR either as I still have loans that have not returned anything so would be pointless.
Toukshare: Legally, the only way to have an investment in your child's name is to formally gift the asset to the child resulting in you having no legal right to the asset thereafter. Anything else is an attempt to circumvent tax law and the consequences can be disastrous. If you hold the asset in trust, then the tax rate is the trustee tax rate for children under 16. My suggestion: don't try it.
Cool Bear
16-10-2019, 01:12 PM
Hi,
3rd question: I only recently passed the $10,000 outstanding principal, and my understanding is that I am being charged fees of 17.5% of gross interest instead of 20%, but is that only for loans taken after I went from below $10k to over? Or will all my gross interest (even for my first loans) from now on be charged at 17.5%?
The 17.5% applies only for the new loans. You will still be charged 20% for the old ones.
vernon
17-10-2019, 10:10 AM
10813
One Has to wonder if anyone does look at the income details with any common sense. Really $33,771.62 ,monthly income
andrewfreestuff
17-10-2019, 12:15 PM
Hi,
Speaking of tax, have all of you put this investment in your kids name/IRD no, or yours? Kids would get 10.5% RWT rate, would they not? (unless they already earn, but I am talking young kids, under the age of 10)
I am going to assume you are wanting to invest your kids money on their behalf, rather than attempt a tax dodge. When I last enquired to do this on behalf of my son Harmoney didn't allow kids to invest on their platform.
And neither did Lending Crowd either.
Toukshare
17-10-2019, 03:32 PM
I am going to assume you are wanting to invest your kids money on their behalf, rather than attempt a tax dodge. When I last enquired to do this on behalf of my son Harmoney didn't allow kids to invest on their platform.
And neither did Lending Crowd either.
I absolutely do not advocate a tax dodge. But I do invest some money on my children's behalf and as a responsible parent, want them to have a diverse portfolio. P2P Lending is part of that, as well as Kiwisaver, term deposits and property. They are not at an age where they can manage their investments, so I do it for them. But I believe they are entitled to their fair tax rate, even if the actual management is done by me.
As a man wiser than me said "tax evasion is a crime, tax avoidance is a duty"
another HEADS UP: if you hold it as their trustee (in your name, not theirs) then the trustee tax rate applies.
An inglorious milestone: today my dashboard told me I have earned more in gross interest than the value of loans remaining outstanding. From the significantly reduced commentary on this forum in recent months I guess that many other lenders are feeling the same frustration I am - or perhaps, as usually happens when market returns fall, people are taking on increased risk.
myles
20-10-2019, 05:14 PM
10816
I'm still happy with the return - not so happy with the volume of loans.
I've pretty much settled on try to keep about $120K invested. Anything over that and my funds available just grows.
yep, RAR and filters stable but cash is growing again!
beacon
21-10-2019, 10:57 AM
From the significantly reduced commentary on this forum in recent months I guess that many other lenders are feeling the same frustration I am ...
Indeed, I am too. RAR falling, have had to extract more than half my (peak) funds now, since there has been little opportunity to deploy them on this platform in recent months. Checking it is becoming a waste of time.
Thank you Harmoney and Institutionals for usurping my share...
Toukshare
22-10-2019, 08:15 AM
From the significantly reduced commentary on this forum in recent months I guess that many other lenders are feeling the same frustration I am - or perhaps, as usually happens when market returns fall, people are taking on increased risk.
Having only recently joined Harmoney, I am at a different stage in the cycle than many of the established commenters here. I am so recent I don't even had a RAR yet!
Before investing, I read your whole thread, as I found it to be the most informative and impartial piece of information on HM anywhere on the web. It seems to me also that you guys thought the best days of HM were a few years ago. That's no good to me :rolleyes: but I'll still plough on regardless. Currently reinvesting any interest and principal paid back, checking daily, one $25 note at a time...
Anybody else having login issues this morning? My email & password (saved in LastPass) apparently don't match, and the forgot password page is down.
Edit: Seems it was a very temporary thing, or I hit the end of it. App & website now both working.
Toukshare
23-10-2019, 10:24 AM
Harmoney is proposing a new scorecard (v1.6), got an email yesterday about it. Rates charged to borrowers are much reduced in grades C, D and E, a bit reduced in Bs and Fs, and unchanged in As.
The amount they can borrow will also change: Fs will be able to borrow up to $15k, Es up to $25k, Ds up to $35k, Cs up to $45k, Bs up to $55k and As unchanged at $70k.
grade old rate new rate variance old limit new limit
-----------------------------------------------------------------
A1 6.99% 6.99% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A2 7.99% 7.99% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A3 9.20% 9.20% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A4 10.50% 10.50% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A5 11.99% 11.99% NIL $70,000 $70,000
B1 13.39% 12.39% -1.00% $55,000 $50,000
B2 14.75% 12.59% -2.16% $55,000 $50,000
B3 15.80% 12.80% -3.00% $55,000 $50,000
B4 16.99% 13.99% -3.00% $55,000 $50,000
B5 17.80% 14.80% -3.00% $55,000 $50,000
C1 18.90% 15.90% -3.00% $45,000 $40,000
C2 20.40% 17.40% -3.00% $45,000 $40,000
C3 21.90% 17.59% -3.00% $45,000 $40,000
C4 22.99% 17.99% -5.00% $45,000 $40,000
C5 23.99% 18.49% -5.50% $45,000 $40,000
D1 24.70% 18.99% -5.71% $35,000 $30,000
D2 25.20% 19.49% -5.71% $35,000 $30,000
D3 25.49% 19.99% -5.51% $35,000 $30,000
D4 25.99% 20.99% -5.00% $35,000 $30,000
D5 26.49% 21.49% -5.00% $35,000 $30,000
E1 26.99% 21.99% -5.00% $25,000 $20,000
E2 27.49% 22.49% -5.00% $25,000 $20,000
E3 27.99% 23.99% -4.00% $25,000 $20,000
E4 28.29% 24.29% -4.00% $25,000 $20,000
E5 28.69% 24.69% -4.00% $25,000 $20,000
F1 28.99% 26.99% -2.00% $15,000 $10,000
F2 29.19% 27.99% -1.20% $15,000 $10,000
F3 29.49% 28.99% -0.50% $10,000 $15,000
F4 29.69% 29.69% NIL $10,000 $15,000
F5 29.99% 29.99% NIL $10,000 $15,000
New scorecard and details here (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/scorecard-1-6?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTVdKbVkyWXlNV1F3TTJVMyIsInQiOiJy VmMzMU5XV0hOb3p1ckpKN2VMWURybEZmR2dMRE5lUzI1OTl6RG pxWE9hS1dGT09TbEpITEVuM0dDcHhSNk1KNnZjblwvU042ZU1D YnVXRFhrZ2NYUTN0c0tLSzBQR1ArZG0zMENaa1dHc1ZPSndveG QySnBycUhCUHBST1B2VXYifQ%3D%3D). HM also says that a new C3 will not be an old C3, hence why the rates were adjusted.
I find the rate drop in Cs and Ds quite drastic - it will be hard to go and chase the 20%+. I guess it depends on an individual investor's strategy. Personally, I was quite content to stay B5 to D3, but to achieve reasonable returns of, say, 17-18%, I will either have to go "deeper" to the mid Es, or to forgo As and Bs and reduce diversification and solely focus on C1 to D5 or thereabouts.
Food for thought...
Toukshare
23-10-2019, 10:35 AM
Harmoney is proposing a new scorecard (v1.6), got an email yesterday about it. Rates charged to borrowers are much reduced in grades C, D and E, a bit reduced in Bs and Fs, and unchanged in As.
The amount they can borrow will also change: Fs will be able to borrow up to $15k, Es up to $25k, Ds up to $35k, Cs up to $45k, Bs up to $55k and As unchanged at $70k.
grade old rate new rate variance old limit new limit
-----------------------------------------------------------------
A1 ... 6.99% .. 6.99% . NIL .... $70,000 . $70,000
A2 ... 7.99% .. 7.99% . NIL .... $70,000 . $70,000
A3 ... 9.20% .. 9.20% . NIL .... $70,000 . $70,000
A4 ...10.50% ..10.50% . NIL .... $70,000 . $70,000
A5 ...11.99% ..11.99% . NIL .... $70,000 . $70,000
B1 ...13.39% ..12.39% .-1.00% .. $55,000 . $50,000
B2 ...14.75% ..12.59% .-2.16% .. $55,000 . $50,000
B3 ...15.80% ..12.80% .-3.00% .. $55,000 . $50,000
B4 ...16.99% ..13.99% .-3.00% .. $55,000 . $50,000
B5 ...17.80% ..14.80% .-3.00% .. $55,000 . $50,000
C1 ...18.90% ..15.90% .-3.00% .. $45,000 . $40,000
C2 ...20.40% ..17.40% .-3.00% .. $45,000 . $40,000
C3 ...21.90% ..17.59% .-3.00% .. $45,000 . $40,000
C4 ...22.99% ..17.99% .-5.00% .. $45,000 . $40,000
C5 ...23.99% ..18.49% .-5.50% .. $45,000 . $40,000
D1 ...24.70% ..18.99% .-5.71% .. $35,000 . $30,000
D2 ...25.20% ..19.49% .-5.71% .. $35,000 . $30,000
D3 ...25.49% ..19.99% .-5.51% .. $35,000 . $30,000
D4 ...25.99% ..20.99% .-5.00% .. $35,000 . $30,000
D5 ...26.49% ..21.49% .-5.00% .. $35,000 . $30,000
E1 ...26.99% ..21.99% .-5.00% .. $25,000 . $20,000
E2 ...27.49% ..22.49% .-5.00% .. $25,000 . $20,000
E3 ...27.99% ..23.99% .-4.00% .. $25,000 . $20,000
E4 ...28.29% ..24.29% .-4.00% .. $25,000 . $20,000
E5 ...28.69% ..24.69% .-4.00% .. $25,000 . $20,000
F1 ...28.99% ..26.99% .-2.00% .. $15,000 . $10,000
F2 ...29.19% ..27.99% .-1.20% .. $15,000 . $10,000
F3 ...29.49% ..28.99% .-0.50% .. $15,000 . $10,000
F4 ...29.69% ..29.69% . NIL .... $15,000 . $10,000
F5 ...29.99% ..29.99% . NIL .... $15,000 . $10,000
New scorecard and details here (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/scorecard-1-6?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTVdKbVkyWXlNV1F3TTJVMyIsInQiOiJy VmMzMU5XV0hOb3p1ckpKN2VMWURybEZmR2dMRE5lUzI1OTl6RG pxWE9hS1dGT09TbEpITEVuM0dDcHhSNk1KNnZjblwvU042ZU1D YnVXRFhrZ2NYUTN0c0tLSzBQR1ArZG0zMENaa1dHc1ZPSndveG QySnBycUhCUHBST1B2VXYifQ%3D%3D). HM also says that a new C3 will not be an old C3, hence why the rates were adjusted.
I find the rate drop in Cs and Ds quite drastic - it will be hard to go and chase the 20%+. I guess it depends on an individual investor's strategy. Personally, I was quite content to stay B5 to D3, but to achieve reasonable returns of, say, 17-18%, I will either have to go "deeper" to the mid Es, or to forgo As and Bs and reduce diversification and solely focus on C1 to D5 or thereabouts.
Food for thought...
andrewfreestuff
23-10-2019, 01:16 PM
But I do invest some money on my children's behalf and as a responsible parent, want them to have a diverse portfolio. P2P Lending is part of that, as well as Kiwisaver, term deposits and property. They are not at an age where they can manage their investments, so I do it for them. But I believe they are entitled to their fair tax rate, even if the actual management is done by me.
While I have not enquired for a while, I have not found any NZ P2P providers that accept children. Like you I wanted to invest on behalf. Does anyone have any ideas about WHY the P2P lenders wouldn't accept children? Is there a legal reason? Or is it just a hassle to set up and associate the responsible parent etc? Quite a few managed funds have accepted his money and tax bracket.
Harmoney is proposing a new scorecard (v1.6), got an email yesterday about it. Rates charged to borrowers are much reduced in grades C, D and E, a bit reduced in Bs and Fs, and unchanged in As.
The amount they can borrow will also change: Fs will be able to borrow up to $15k, Es up to $25k, Ds up to $35k, Cs up to $45k, Bs up to $55k and As unchanged at $70k.
grade old rate new rate variance old limit new limit
-----------------------------------------------------------------
A1 6.99% 6.99% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A2 7.99% 7.99% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A3 9.20% 9.20% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A4 10.50% 10.50% NIL $70,000 $70,000
A5 11.99% 11.99% NIL $70,000 $70,000
B1 13.39% 12.39% -1.00% $55,000 $50,000
B2 14.75% 12.59% -2.16% $55,000 $50,000
B3 15.80% 12.80% -3.00% $55,000 $50,000
B4 16.99% 13.99% -3.00% $55,000 $50,000
B5 17.80% 14.80% -3.00% $55,000 $50,000
C1 18.90% 15.90% -3.00% $45,000 $40,000
C2 20.40% 17.40% -3.00% $45,000 $40,000
C3 21.90% 17.59% -3.00% $45,000 $40,000
C4 22.99% 17.99% -5.00% $45,000 $40,000
C5 23.99% 18.49% -5.50% $45,000 $40,000
D1 24.70% 18.99% -5.71% $35,000 $30,000
D2 25.20% 19.49% -5.71% $35,000 $30,000
D3 25.49% 19.99% -5.51% $35,000 $30,000
D4 25.99% 20.99% -5.00% $35,000 $30,000
D5 26.49% 21.49% -5.00% $35,000 $30,000
E1 26.99% 21.99% -5.00% $25,000 $20,000
E2 27.49% 22.49% -5.00% $25,000 $20,000
E3 27.99% 23.99% -4.00% $25,000 $20,000
E4 28.29% 24.29% -4.00% $25,000 $20,000
E5 28.69% 24.69% -4.00% $25,000 $20,000
F1 28.99% 26.99% -2.00% $15,000 $10,000
F2 29.19% 27.99% -1.20% $15,000 $10,000
F3 29.49% 28.99% -0.50% $10,000 $15,000
F4 29.69% 29.69% NIL $10,000 $15,000
F5 29.99% 29.99% NIL $10,000 $15,000
New scorecard and details here (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/scorecard-1-6?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTVdKbVkyWXlNV1F3TTJVMyIsInQiOiJy VmMzMU5XV0hOb3p1ckpKN2VMWURybEZmR2dMRE5lUzI1OTl6RG pxWE9hS1dGT09TbEpITEVuM0dDcHhSNk1KNnZjblwvU042ZU1D YnVXRFhrZ2NYUTN0c0tLSzBQR1ArZG0zMENaa1dHc1ZPSndveG QySnBycUhCUHBST1B2VXYifQ%3D%3D). HM also says that a new C3 will not be an old C3, hence why the rates were adjusted.
I find the rate drop in Cs and Ds quite drastic - it will be hard to go and chase the 20%+. I guess it depends on an individual investor's strategy. Personally, I was quite content to stay B5 to D3, but to achieve reasonable returns of, say, 17-18%, I will either have to go "deeper" to the mid Es, or to forgo As and Bs and reduce diversification and solely focus on C1 to D5 or thereabouts.
Food for thought...
Thanks for the analysis. You would need to line up interest rate against probability of default to get comparable interest rate changes but on the face ot it looks like a massive rate cut that will send RAR's crashing through 10%.
Ah, I think you are not comparing to 1.5! The rate reductions are much less... but shows how much times have changed since launch
leesal
23-10-2019, 03:16 PM
Thanks for the analysis. You would need to line up interest rate against probability of default to get comparable interest rate changes but on the face ot it looks like a massive rate cut that will send RAR's crashing through 10%.
Yuck :(
On the plus side for Harmoney they'll pick up plenty of extra rewrite commissions
Cool Bear
23-10-2019, 10:17 PM
Ah, I think you are not comparing to 1.5! The rate reductions are much less... but shows how much times have changed since launch
Unfortunately, he IS comparing to 1.5 and it is that drastic!!
Worst still, the default rate is up for C4 to E5. For example under 1.5, E2 interest rate is 27.49% and annual chance of default is 3.73%. Under 1.6, E1 interest is now 22.49%, a drop of 5% while the annual default has gone up to 5.56%.
So we are being hit both ways! RAR will definitely drop. But with Reserve bank interest rate approaching zero, it is rather expected.
Regards
CB
myles
23-10-2019, 11:27 PM
But with Reserve bank interest rate approaching zero, it is rather expected.
I'm surprised it has taken so long.
It will be interesting to see if loan volume picks up after these changes go through - not including re-writes, which may well see a fairly significant rise in available funds :(
Toukshare
24-10-2019, 09:14 AM
So we are being hit both ways! RAR will definitely drop. But with Reserve bank interest rate approaching zero, it is rather expected.
I think that's what is driving the interest rates drop from a commercial point of view. I am guessing that most lending institutions (including banks) have had to drop their rates. And (for those of use with mortgages) while we are happy for our mortgage rates to drop down to 3.45% or thereabouts, this also means that borrowing rates across the board are also dropping.
Because as Cool Bear says, a drop in the interest rate for a particular grade doesn't mean that it has less chance of default as before, comparatively. A similar chance of default percentage now corresponds to a lower interest rate, so we lenders are being ask to risk more for the same return.
Interestingly, Harmoney also claims that they now have more than 5 years worth of data regarding risks and are now able to fine-tune their expected default rates, risk analysis etc. That may be true also?
leesal
24-10-2019, 11:44 PM
Worked out the net impact on my current portfolio. My current weighted average interest rate on loans is 20%... superimposing new interestrates on revised dashboard it will be 17%
As per coolbear comments above, default rates unlikely to have changed in the last 2 years... that 3% reduction just a full hit to investor return.
I wonder how the insto's feel about the drastically reduced income with practically no change to the underlying risk?
Saamee
25-10-2019, 06:44 AM
Worked out the net impact on my current portfolio. My current weighted average interest rate on loans is 20%... superimposing new interestrates on revised dashboard it will be 17%
As per coolbear comments above, default rates unlikely to have changed in the last 2 years... that 3% reduction just a full hit to investor return.
I wonder how the insto's feel about the drastically reduced income with practically no change to the underlying risk?
Inevesting Interest Rates have gone down across the board, everywhere you look.... Why would P2P be any different?
If they get no customers becuase their % Rates are too high - Investors would not be happy either!!
leesal
25-10-2019, 09:09 AM
Inevesting Interest Rates have gone down across the board, everywhere you look.... Why would P2P be any different?
If they get no customers becuase their % Rates are too high - Investors would not be happy either!!
Do you not feel that consumer finance in the unsecured space has a degree of inelasticity of demand?
Recall Myles mentioning Gem charging AER of 49%; and the unregulated loan shark shops continue to be a problem. OCR hasn't fallen off a cliff, its reduced by 0.75% in 3 years.
Intrigued what prompted harmoney to go this hard in their reduction. If they are supposedly making "no money" off loan applications; and investing their own money into the platform? Maybe the insto's are happy with 7% RAR instead of 10%, wonder how they'll like it when the market tanks.
Toukshare
25-10-2019, 01:40 PM
Worked out the net impact on my current portfolio. My current weighted average interest rate on loans is 20%... superimposing new interestrates on revised dashboard it will be 17%
As per coolbear comments above, default rates unlikely to have changed in the last 2 years... that 3% reduction just a full hit to investor return.
I wonder how the insto's feel about the drastically reduced income with practically no change to the underlying risk?
I agree - I was aiming for a weighted average lending rate of around 20%, which put me at a C2 "centerpoint". I will now have to get down to a D5 (!) centerpoint, which obviously carries a lot more defaults risk. I too think the reduction in rates are drastic. Down 5% in some grades is not fine-tuning, it's a complete change of tack.
I agree - I was aiming for a weighted average lending rate of around 20%, which put me at a C2 "centerpoint". I will now have to get down to a D5 (!) centerpoint, which obviously carries a lot more defaults risk. I too think the reduction in rates are drastic. Down 5% in some grades is not fine-tuning, it's a complete change of tack.
Sorry I doubted your numbers, it just seemed way too radical! Agree this is a dramatic repricing of risk. The base rate component of these loans is practically immaterial on the higher grades.
Toukshare
25-10-2019, 02:49 PM
No problem - actually my new centerpoint is D3, not D5. Still a big step down from C2.
myles
25-10-2019, 04:14 PM
Toukshare,
You may find the following two charts of interest - these are my current loan distribution and all time defaults (ignoring grades with small loan numbers):
10821
10822
Using Harmoney platform average default rates can be well off if you apply any form of 'sane' selection process to your loans. It should be pretty obvious why I favour D's and E's when I can get them. Lower grades may not necessarily be lower risk. Hard to compare when everyone's selection process is different. ;)
Toukshare,
You may find the following two charts of interest - these are my current loan distribution and all time defaults (ignoring grades with small loan numbers):
10821
10822
Using Harmoney platform average default rates can be well off if you apply any form of 'sane' selection process to your loans. It should be pretty obvious why I favour D's and E's when I can get them. Lower grades may not necessarily be lower risk. Hard to compare when everyone's selection process is different. ;)
So the higher the number the higher the risk? The number seems more predictive than the letter! Does this perhaps suggest there could be an algorithm override happening? Perhaps I got the wrong end of the stick - again!
myles
26-10-2019, 12:07 AM
The number in the second chart (y-axis) is the total number of defaults for that grade - these numbers are for my loans.
If you compare my C and D loans, D loans have had less defaults than C loans (by one) and I have more D's than C's - so D's are well ahead of C's for my loans. (i.e. D's are showing lower 'risk' than C's for my loans)
Selection of loans is different for everyone, so my results won't be indicative of someone else's, but they do show that using Harmoney generated average values can provide poor indications of actual risk/return.
Toukshare
29-10-2019, 10:44 AM
Very interesting Myles.
It looks like for your loan book, defaults for C4 and C5 are worse than D1, D2, D3 and D4, and again D5 is worse than any Es.
As you say, it may indeed be because of your selection criteria, which I presume is a mix of grade-related criteria items (employment status, residence status, marital status, age, income, ratio) and non-grade-related (loan purpose, loan length, pp). If your selection criteria was purely related to items which influence the grade, then you'd expect your figures to be similar to HM, but obviously it's not.
Saamee
30-10-2019, 01:52 PM
Harmoney raises more Financing for Ozzy expansion....
https://www.interest.co.nz/news/102348/online-lender-harmoney-raises-almost-47-mln-aussie-private-equity-fund-and-2-unnamed
Toukshare
30-10-2019, 03:23 PM
wow:
In the interest article:
Harmoney describes itself as a digital platform lender. Although it was licensed by the Financial Markets Authority as a P2P lender in 2014, Roberts says he now can't see a viable P2P lending model in New Zealand which is why Harmoney has started lending its own money.
So the founder of Harmoney cannot see a viable P2P lending future in NZ.
winner69
30-10-2019, 05:03 PM
wow:
In the interest article:
Harmoney describes itself as a digital platform lender. Although it was licensed by the Financial Markets Authority as a P2P lender in 2014, Roberts says he now can't see a viable P2P lending model in New Zealand which is why Harmoney has started lending its own money.
So the founder of Harmoney cannot see a viable P2P lending future in NZ.
That’s been the case for a while now
Toukshare
05-11-2019, 02:20 PM
New scorecard (1.6) will be in force this Thursday (7th Nov)
alundracloud
06-11-2019, 01:34 PM
Reached $5k in interest today, so thought it was timely to share some stats. I've really slowed down this year, due to the reduced quantity of loans hitting the retail marketplace, and tightening up on my investment criteria.
Total loans = 1,008
Average amount invested per loan = $39.63
Average age of loan in portfolio (current status) = 341 days
Average weighted interest rate (current status) = 20.73%
RAR (as at 26-10-2019) = 15.45%
XIRR (as at 6-11-2019) = 9.20%*
*adjusted by writing-off any loans that are 60+ days in arrears
Loan Book:
A = 32 loans
B = 232 loans
C = 333 loans
D = 308 loans
E = 89 loans
F = 14 loans
10832
10833
10834
leesal
06-11-2019, 05:57 PM
Nice going Alundra. I've hit the two year mark and approaching 15k on 80k active. Diversified across several P2P with around 200k in overall (a year ago had 70% in HM, now only 40%).
Its going to be a tougher environment returnwise with 1.6. The loans from H2 2018 are now 70% repaid, so 6 months max of RARs at the higher level, and then reducing quick as scorecard 1.6 loans replace the rewrites in the portfolio..
Static Loss Data
H2 2017
H1 2018
H2 2018
H1 2019
H2 2019
OVERALL
Count
203
525
1,141
781
870
3,520
Origin Amnt
$ 6,809
$ 19,083
$ 45,546
$33,193
$ 41,642
146,272
Months
22
16
10
4
- 1
Interest Paid
$ 1,285
$ 2,929
$ 6,183
$2,828
$ 994
14,219
Principal Repaid
$ 5,719
$ 15,728
$ 30,251
$ 11,811
$ 2,701
66,209
Principal Remaining
$ 905
$ 3,194
$ 14,800
$21,252
$ 38,941
79,093
Principal 31+ Days in Arrears
$ 27
$ 79
$ 636
$ 730
$ 480
1,951
Default
$ 185
$ 161
$ 495
$ 130
$ -
970
Expect Default - Full Term
$ 445
$ 981
$ 1,641
$1,471
$ 1,835
6,373
HM Cohort Static Loss
3.80%
2.01%
0.96%
0.01%
0.00%
0.74%
Portfolio Static Loss
2.71%
0.84%
1.09%
0.39%
0.00%
0.66%
Expect Static Loss
6.53%
5.14%
3.60%
4.43%
4.41%
4.36%
Toukshare
11-11-2019, 10:23 AM
Quick question re Harmoney's behaviour as regards to institutions vs retail investors.
This morning, I was monitoring the listings, refreshing often as I had some money to invest in loans. It was a good morning actually, and quickly some loans appeared. A D2, 2 D4s, a E5, a C1 and a F1. And then, but quite a while later, a B4. Now the B4 has a loan ID lower than the all the ones mentioned (LAI-00178855 for those who were monitoring too). Which to me means the application was completed earlier (am I right?).
So my question is: do we as retail investors see those "safer loans" after institutions have had first dibs, whereas those institutions (or HM) are happy for us to see the riskier loans first?
Because if that is not the case, then why are we seeing loans appear not in the order of their loan ID?
alundracloud
11-11-2019, 10:51 AM
There will be a delay between a customer registering interest in a loan, completing the application (when the ID will be assigned), and then deciding on whether or not to accept the T&C's, interest rate etc., before it hits the marketplace.
Depending on the applicant, it may well be that the applications for the riskier loans were completed with a faster turnaround.
Saamee
12-11-2019, 01:25 PM
Anyone else having trouble Loggin into Harmoney @ 13:24??
Keep getting Logged out as though you had never Logged in!!
Saamee
12-11-2019, 06:14 PM
Anyone else having trouble Loggin into Harmoney @ 13:24??
Keep getting Logged out as though you had never Logged in!!
Still unable to access Harmoney Website via Mobile or Laptop!!
Mine was OK earlier and just now (in browser). Notice that they have a message up about going offline tomorrow night for maintenance. Maybe it's necessary maintenance for a bug that's stopping some people logging in sometimes? It did happen to me recently as well but resolved itself within the day.
Saamee
12-11-2019, 06:57 PM
Mine was OK earlier and just now (in browser). Notice that they have a message up about going offline tomorrow night for maintenance. Maybe it's necessary maintenance for a bug that's stopping some people logging in sometimes? It did happen to me recently as well but resolved itself within the day.
Just accessed Harmoney but via Microsoft Edge Browser - Chrome still No Go from Laptop or Mobile...
Toukshare
13-11-2019, 09:14 AM
It's fine this morning (via laptop Chrome too)
They say there will be maintenance at 10:30pm tonight (Wednesday), so not accessible then.
By the way, after 3 months in, I finally got a RAR (9.12%)
I personally calculate my XIRR at 9.45%
10840
10841
Account is very young (3 months) so no official charge off or write off yet although I see 2 of my loans haven't paid anything for 2 months - so I am sure they are candidate for a write-off. We'll see.
johna
13-11-2019, 11:21 AM
i stopped investing in grade A loans, they seem to all pay below my average RAR - so even if they pay perfectly they still drag the average return down, and that's without the odd one that defaults.
TobyPascoe92
13-11-2019, 09:30 PM
Thats because they are a lower interest rate .....
leesal
15-11-2019, 02:01 PM
accidently took out a loan for $1100 :mad ;:
Toukshare
15-11-2019, 02:22 PM
accidently took out a loan for $1100 :mad ;:
wow, I hope it's not a F5
leesal
15-11-2019, 06:05 PM
wow, I hope it's not a F5
Thats true, could be worse! and btw congrats for hitting the 10k mark, in only a few months
accidently took out a loan for $1100 :mad ;:
Yep, I once got distracted and mixed units with $'s having just been on Lending Crowd and ended up with 25x what I wanted!
leesal
17-11-2019, 10:53 PM
Yep, I once got distracted and mixed units with $'s having just been on Lending Crowd and ended up with 25x what I wanted!
I'm hoping it rewrites quick and keeps up with payments :/
TobyPascoe92
18-11-2019, 08:20 PM
10854
Three months invested in Harmoney, hoping to get to about $14,000 in by end of year. Displayed RAR hasn't quite reflected my actual RAR yet, waiting on a bit more interest to come in. Any tips from anyone on what you think the best Auto-Lend filter settings are? Cheers.
leesal
19-11-2019, 09:16 AM
10854
Three months invested in Harmoney, hoping to get to about $14,000 in by end of year. Displayed RAR hasn't quite reflected my actual RAR yet, waiting on a bit more interest to come in. Any tips from anyone on what you think the best Auto-Lend filter settings are? Cheers.
I don't use auto-lend, but if you search this thread you'll find some good content. Myles in particular indicates his criteria for selection.
leesal
19-11-2019, 09:22 AM
Supposedly Harmoney has changed the grading system... So a B5 loan of yesterday is no longer the B5 loan of today.
Does this resonate? I came across this dubious B5, and can't see too much evidence of a difference between the grading on 1.6 and 1.5. So am wondering if there was validity to this claim?
10856
joker
19-11-2019, 04:41 PM
10857
12 months and the wholesale (owners & institutions) RAR has increased by nearly 1% while the retail (us mugs) RAR has declined slightly. I suspect that the "better" loans are being cherry picked for the owners?
Toukshare
20-11-2019, 02:01 PM
Supposedly Harmoney has changed the grading system... So a B5 loan of yesterday is no longer the B5 loan of today.
Does this resonate? I came across this dubious B5, and can't see too much evidence of a difference between the grading on 1.6 and 1.5. So am wondering if there was validity to this claim?
10856
Wow, the repayment to income ratio is scary!!!
Apart from that, I guess as a borrower he seems not too bad - homeowner of 13 years with stable job and history of repayments. If he's a B5 I agree nothing much has changed, I would have expected him/her to be a lower B in the new grading system.
I just think he's just borrowing too much.
leesal
22-11-2019, 06:42 PM
Wow, the repayment to income ratio is scary!!!
Apart from that, I guess as a borrower he seems not too bad - homeowner of 13 years with stable job and history of repayments. If he's a B5 I agree nothing much has changed, I would have expected him/her to be a lower B in the new grading system.
I just think he's just borrowing too much.
There's this too.
10860
I just tend to take a small piece of everything. Just to get the benefit of the information... But within reason
stoploss
23-11-2019, 07:06 AM
There's this too.
10860
I just tend to take a small piece of everything. Just to get the benefit of the information... But within reason
Basic benefit is $ 210 a week , living with parents unlikey to be accomodation supplement on top ..... I can't see how Harmony can put up a loan like this - surely it does not comply with the responsible lending code.......
Toukshare
25-11-2019, 09:19 AM
So today 2 firsts for me:
- first time my RAR is above the platform's RAR
- first arrears10863
I'm only just over 3 months in though (108 days) so still very meaningless at this stage.
Toukshare
26-11-2019, 10:54 AM
Hi,
I have a quick question regarding repayment schedule.
I have a loan taken on 19-AUG-2019 where the borrower does not seem to have made any repayments yet. Ever. To me this means that if it is, at worst, a monthly schedule, they should have made repayments on 19-SEP, 19-OCT and 19-NOV. But no. Nothing.
And yet the loan is not marked as 'in arrears', or any other non-current status. It is still 'current'. Whereas HM seems to modify the loan status to 'in arrears' in others.
I have attached the screenshot.
10866
Are there any circumstances where that could be right? Maybe in case of 'unforeseen hardship', but then would HM inform us if they had granted this to a borrower?
Thanks
Saamee
26-11-2019, 11:46 AM
Hi,
I have a quick question regarding repayment schedule.
I have a loan taken on 19-AUG-2019 where the borrower does not seem to have made any repayments yet. Ever. To me this means that if it is, at worst, a monthly schedule, they should have made repayments on 19-SEP, 19-OCT and 19-NOV. But no. Nothing.
And yet the loan is not marked as 'in arrears', or any other non-current status. It is still 'current'. Whereas HM seems to modify the loan status to 'in arrears' in others.
I have attached the screenshot.
10866
Are there any circumstances where that could be right? Maybe in case of 'unforeseen hardship', but then would HM inform us if they had granted this to a borrower?
Thanks
I rather think you are expecting Harmoney to behave like we would expect an organisation that cares about their customer to behave.....
I think your answer is in your questions words.......
Harmoney does not commuicate how we expect or would like.
I suspect you loan is in arrears and you finding out about it from Harmoney is in a 'holding pattern'.
Maybe best you call the Support Team on their 0800 #!
Toukshare
26-11-2019, 12:01 PM
OK thanks - I wasn't aware of the 'holding pattern' scenario.
I'll definitely call HM regarding this.
Thanks again.
joker
01-12-2019, 08:28 AM
Dodgy data from Harmoney...
The record shows that the loan was advanced on 02/05/19, paid off on 14/05/19 yet the full principal of $100 is still outstanding.
There have been no repayments since the funds were released to the borrower 7 months ago yet the record indicates that Harmoney has received the full $100 (PAID-OFF DATE: May 14 2019).
I wonder where my money is?
10871
vernon
04-12-2019, 11:49 AM
Is anyone having issues with Auto lend?
I go after just about every c and d with a very loose filter and yet I have had nothing for a week now. 19 new loans in the last 24 hrs. Hard to believe none of them are c or d
Auto lend is green and plenty of funds.
Toukshare
04-12-2019, 02:58 PM
Is anyone having issues with Auto lend?
I go after just about every c and d with a very loose filter and yet I have had nothing for a week now. 19 new loans in the last 24 hrs. Hard to believe none of them are c or d
Auto lend is green and plenty of funds.
So your Autolend didn't see that one? LAI-00181484, a D3
10879
it was live at about 12noon approx.
Seems to be picking up a few, just not enough to dent the pile of cash sitting there!
bung5
05-12-2019, 11:11 AM
12 autolends in the last week . However I have a large cash idle balance trying to get invested
vernon
06-12-2019, 02:27 PM
So your Autolend didn't see that one? LAI-00181484, a D3
10879
it was live at about 12noon approx.
Yes Nothing picking up Friday now and still no auto loans on any C or D
Time to ask Harmony I think
leesal
06-12-2019, 03:08 PM
Yes Nothing picking up Friday now and still no auto loans on any C or D
Time to ask Harmony I think
Read Harmoney's information about Autolend in the FAQ.
Autolend operates on a queue. The determinant on that queue is the % of free cash in your portfolio. So if like me your % is 3% or less you will get nothing.
If you want to ensure autolend triggers you'll need to deposit funds into your account. I'm not sure what the best "cutoff" would be, but imagine somewhere around the 10% mark may ensure you get your autolend quota on most C/D loans.
Failing that, HM reset autolend following scoreboard 1.6. Have you reactivated it?
Bjauck
06-12-2019, 05:31 PM
I guess it could be the time of year when Christmas bonuses are paid to employees. So maybe more loans are being repaid than are being taken up by by borrowers. Hence lender cash balances would be accumulating?
The FMA has just published data on NZ's Peer-to-peer lending and crowdfunding for 2019
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1912/S00105/peer-to-peer-lending-and-crowdfunding-2019-data-published.htm
vernon
09-12-2019, 01:22 PM
Yes thankyou. That's exactly it. I was at 6% and was getting nothing. Boosted it up to 20% last night and I've immediately picked up several loans this morning. A pain having thousands sitting waiting at zero % but no other choice I guess.
CageyB
09-12-2019, 02:17 PM
Yes thankyou. That's exactly it. I was at 6% and was getting nothing. Boosted it up to 20% last night and I've immediately picked up several loans this morning. A pain having thousands sitting waiting at zero % but no other choice I guess.
Yes, mine is at 20% to keep the autolend functional. Agreed, it's disappointing to have so much money earning 0%, but at least it's liquid. Even accounting for the money earning nothing, my effective RAR is about 11.3%.
Saamee
16-12-2019, 04:32 PM
% Rate Cuts @ HM today....
10903
Toukshare
17-12-2019, 04:23 PM
% Rate Cuts @ HM today....
10903
I think those rates have been effective from 8 Nov
Saamee
17-12-2019, 04:49 PM
I think those rates have been effective from 8 Nov
Not sure! Was reported only yesterday in interest.co.nz :)
leesal
03-01-2020, 09:56 AM
Happy new year everyone.
I took 1 note for morbid curiousity. A quality B3 loan to kick the decade off!
10928
I think it will suffer from morbidity alright. Perhaps the only question is: How Long? I saw this Leesal; it just confirmed my view Harmoney is sending all the garbage our way.
stoploss
05-01-2020, 11:05 AM
I think it will suffer from morbidity alright. Perhaps the only question is: How Long? I saw this Leesal; it just confirmed my view Harmoney is sending all the garbage our way.
On a benefit with a monthly income of $ 4000 , there is a TUI ad right there....... This is another loan that surely does not comply with the responsible lending code.
What verification do they do on the income ???
joker
06-01-2020, 07:43 AM
On a benefit with a monthly income of $ 4000 , there is a TUI ad right there....... This is another loan that surely does not comply with the responsible lending code.
What verification do they do on the income ???
AI reading of electronic bank statements I believe - so if you've had a few months of good income selling on trade me (or maybe dealing in substances) your income is inflated accordingly.
Vagabond47
06-01-2020, 07:27 PM
On a benefit with a monthly income of $ 4000 , there is a TUI ad right there.......
Nope, just filled in the WINZ calculator thing as if I was a late 20s solo parent with three young kids and a part time job. Winz would have given me $928/week after tax if the calculator is to be believed.
stoploss
06-01-2020, 08:52 PM
Nope, just filled in the WINZ calculator thing as if I was a late 20s solo parent with three young kids and a part time job. Winz would have given me $928/week after tax if the calculator is to be believed.
What was the breakdown ?
Vagabond47
06-01-2020, 09:23 PM
See attached
10933
stoploss
06-01-2020, 09:28 PM
See attached
10933
It did say they were single living with parents so I very much doubt the accommodation supplement would be anywhere near 300....
I may be wrong , but it doesn’t look right to me .
Vagabond47
06-01-2020, 09:39 PM
It did say they were single living with parents so I very much doubt the accommodation supplement would be anywhere near 300....
I may be wrong , but it doesn’t look right to me .
Well, that assumes you tell WINZ you are living with parents.. and also excludes other possibilities, ACC payments based on someone on a good income struck down by disability being the obvious one.
But yes, I saw that loan.. grabbed my 10 foot barge pole and pushed it away.
leesal
07-01-2020, 07:29 AM
At this risk of defending this I have a piece of that loan, mainly for information purposes. If HM is doing its job, then there should be zero difference in the performance between of "loans that look bad on paper", when compared to other loans of equivalent grade. So have started tracking these fugly loans, its early days but so far they have 0 defaults on $500 interest earned with about 6k active. The rest by way of comparison has a default rate of just under 10% of 16k interest, and have had some lovely looking loans turn sour. That said there are some loans that just wont touch .
(BTW - fugly portfolio has average income repayment ratio of 28%; rest has 8%)
Saamee
07-01-2020, 01:37 PM
At this risk of defending this I have a piece of that loan, mainly for information purposes. If HM is doing its job, then there should be zero difference in the performance between of "loans that look bad on paper", when compared to other loans of equivalent grade. So have started tracking these fugly loans, its early days but so far they have 0 defaults on $500 interest earned with about 6k active. The rest by way of comparison has a default rate of just under 10% of 16k interest, and have had some lovely looking loans turn sour. That said there are some loans that just wont touch .
(BTW - fugly portfolio has average income repayment ratio of 28%; rest has 8%)
@leesal > A good idea to do and try.
I did something simiilar a gew years back with HM Re-Writes... Invested in Maxed out Re-Writes.
Results were impressive with NO Losses.....
vernon
08-01-2020, 08:53 AM
Well I got my first loan write off. A grade, with house and never a payment made. Who would have thought it!!
10934
Maybe I should just go for the F grades and get a better return if H can't get money out of someone with a house.
joker
08-01-2020, 09:44 AM
Well I got my first loan write off. A grade, with house and never a payment made. Who would have thought it!!
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Maybe I should just go for the F grades and get a better return if H can't get money out of someone with a house.
I guess that's unsecured lending at its worst...a lot of the info borrowers supply is accepted on trust. Who knows the true state of the property, its ownership and value v debt. It may not even exist! Harmoney has proven time and time again that very little due diligence in done when checking borrowers bona fides. Essentially they're keen to get $450 for each loan written/rewritten (which is paid (lent) up front by us - the lenders) and probably view the interest commission/fee as a bonus!
Vagabond47
08-01-2020, 04:17 PM
wow, 15 loans available at one time.. whats happened?
Hmm, some with only 9 days remaining.. odd, there was nothing there an hour ago.
Toukshare
08-01-2020, 06:09 PM
wow, 15 loans available at one time.. whats happened?
Hmm, some with only 9 days remaining.. odd, there was nothing there an hour ago.
Yes, saw that too. From nothing to 15 loans, all after pressing the 'refresh' button.
Anyway just wanted to say I've had my first charged-off too. A B4!!! I did enquire to HM a while back, as no activity was seen against this loan, and no payment ever for about 4 months. I got a reply from HM saying this was a case of 'family fraud'. Whatever that means? (what is family fraud as opposed to straight-up fraud?).
In any case, I would agree with the commenters here who said we are accepting HM's rating and information on trust, and suspect HM do not do a huge amount of due diligence (does the property exist? In what state is it in? What is its true ownership structure? What is the difference between 'living with parents' and 'renting'? How are bank statements PDFs checked? Do they check that the partner with large income is indeed a true partner? ....)
So far out of 130 loans that are over 3 months old, I have about 5 where no repayment has ever been made, there's a B4, a C5, a D5, a E4 and a F2. Quite the mix!
myles
09-01-2020, 07:59 AM
Toukshare, be prepared for a higher rate of defaults as you build your portfolio - typically you feel the effects from 9 months to 15 months (depending on the speed of investing). As you build your portfolio the number of loans invested in is high, as is the number of defaults after the initial 'grace' period. Once you have the bulk of your $'s invested and move into replacement of paid/re-written loans, the number of loans you invest in reduces, as does the overall defaults. Have a look at some of the previously posted RAR curves and you'll see the typical peak that drops down to a relatively steady RAR - something to be prepared for.
Toukshare
09-01-2020, 01:21 PM
Toukshare, be prepared for a higher rate of defaults as you build your portfolio - typically you feel the effects from 9 months to 15 months (depending on the speed of investing). As you build your portfolio the number of loans invested in is high, as is the number of defaults after the initial 'grace' period. Once you have the bulk of your $'s invested and move into replacement of paid/re-written loans, the number of loans you invest in reduces, as does the overall defaults. Have a look at some of the previously posted RAR curves and you'll see the typical peak that drops down to a relatively steady RAR - something to be prepared for.
Thank you Myles. I am indeed prepared, having read the whole of this thread before investing 'proper'. So first of all, a big thank you for your own contributions on this thread, and to the others who have offered their wisdom and lessons learned from experience too. I particularly appreciated the stats. I know I will experience more defaults and charged off, and not necessarily only in the E and F grades. And as you say, my current RAR is somewhat meaningless, it only has proper value beyond 1 year of investing really.
CageyB
13-02-2020, 09:54 AM
Whelp, Harmoney's dead. In my email:
Good morning,
After careful analysis of Harmoney’s business model and the company’s strategic direction we have made the decision to no longer offer new loans for investment by retail lenders from 1 April 2020.
Toukshare
13-02-2020, 09:57 AM
CageyB, I just got the same email from Harmoney
Subject: No new loans available to Harmoney retail lenders from 1 April 2020
From: The Harmoney Team
After careful analysis of Harmoney’s business model and the company’s strategic direction we have made the decision to no longer offer new loans for investment by retail lenders from 1 April 2020.
This does not affect existing loans, so current retail investments will continue to run out in accordance with their current terms following our closure of the platform to new retail lending.
This is not a decision we have taken lightly but we believe it is the right move to enable Harmoney to continue to lead the way in creating better personal loan products in a highly competitive market.
What this means for you as a Harmoney lender is laid out in detail below, however we would like to thank you for your support of Harmoney as a growing New Zealand business over the past five years.
What’s changing from 1 April 2020:
Retail lenders will be unable to invest in new loans with Harmoney.
If loans in your portfolio are rewritten or are paid off early, principal and interest repayments back into your account will not be able to be reinvested in further loans with Harmoney.
Auto-lend will be deactivated on 31 March 2020.
So that's it - the end. As a newish investor (started August last year), thanks for nothing, HM. Anyone got any alternative apart from the Lending Crowd?
Bjauck
13-02-2020, 09:59 AM
Whelp, Harmoney's dead. In my email: It was always going to happen. There always seemed to be a favouritism towards the corporates. Was it really p2p?
Bjauck
13-02-2020, 10:01 AM
CageyB, I just got the same email from Harmoney
So that's it - the end. As a newish investor (started August last year), thanks for nothing, HM. Anyone got any alternative apart from the Lending Crowd?
Squirrel has a platform.
...we believe it is the right move to enable Harmoney to continue to lead the way in creating better personal loan products in a highly competitive market.
Well that's a lot of words telling us nothing - and there I was thinking their business model was P2P. Well, the signal-to-noise ratio was low on this one in any case, despite being first out of the blocks. Hope it doesn't start a trend though.
Toukshare
13-02-2020, 11:02 AM
It could be a case of the retail IT platform being too expensive to manage, maintain and improve for very little benefit to them (assuming the percentage of money coming from retail investor was at most 20% and going downhill)
leesal
13-02-2020, 11:36 AM
It could be a case of the retail IT platform being too expensive to manage, maintain and improve for very little benefit to them (assuming the percentage of money coming from retail investor was at most 20% and going downhill)
Although you'd imagine they'd be locked into the IT system for the next 5+ years.
AML would be costly to enforce. Imagine they'll save that. Plus less queries; and new accounts to set up.
But suprised about HM lack of spine. Sell a line to push their own status, and when the going gets tough, they find their "new friends" - the very ones they intended to disrupt in the first place
Toukshare
13-02-2020, 11:47 AM
the very ones they intended to disrupt in the first place
So you think maybe those "new friends" just gradually bought up the place. Invested a bit more each year, and a bit more, and then turned round and said "get rid of those pesky retail investors, and we'll go back to being the members-only club that we've always been"?
leesal
13-02-2020, 12:00 PM
So you think maybe those "new friends" just gradually bought up the place. Invested a bit more each year, and a bit more, and then turned round and said "get rid of those pesky retail investors, and we'll go back to being the members-only club that we've always been"?
More like, HM intention right from the outset was to "become big".
How that was achieved didn't matter. Rationalise the motive post-hoc.
Cool Bear
13-02-2020, 02:06 PM
CageyB, I just got the same email from Harmoney
So that's it - the end. As a newish investor (started August last year), thanks for nothing, HM. Anyone got any alternative apart from the Lending Crowd?
Look at zagga.co.nz. Not that many loans and the one at the moment is not that attractive. But very good communication and good security.
alistar_mid
13-02-2020, 04:07 PM
Although you'd imagine they'd be locked into the IT system for the next 5+ years.
AML would be costly to enforce. Imagine they'll save that. Plus less queries; and new accounts to set up.
But suprised about HM lack of spine. Sell a lie to push their own status, and when the going gets tough, they find their "new friends" - the very ones they intended to disrupt in the first place
Just phoned them up and asked about getting reclassified as a wholesale investor... need $10m for that lol
But had a good talk to them. Reason I got is low value retail investors are simply not economical to serve. Too much admin required answering queries, phone calls, IT etc
blackcap
13-02-2020, 04:23 PM
But had a good talk to them. Reason I got is low value retail investors are simply not economical to serve. Too much admin required answering queries, phone calls, IT etc
That really does make sense. If you can get on the platform with $50 loans or whatever the amount is that would be generating bugger all revenue for Harmony but the costs would still be as large if not larger than dealing with more experienced investors. Sad but it is the reality.
leesal
14-02-2020, 11:29 AM
Just phoned them up and asked about getting reclassified as a wholesale investor... need $10m for that lol
But had a good talk to them. Reason I got is low value retail investors are simply not economical to serve. Too much admin required answering queries, phone calls, IT etc
Cheers for the infor alistar.
Would it not be more reasonable if HM had looked for a solution to accommodate the investors. Arrange for a 3rd party to setup a managed fund; or a scheme through an institution?
Were the investors not part of the journey, over the past 7 years?
Bjauck
14-02-2020, 11:41 AM
Cheers for the infor alistar.
Would it not be more reasonable if HM had looked for a solution to accommodate the investors. Arrange for a 3rd party to setup a managed fund; or a scheme through an institution?
Were the investors not part of the journey, over the past 7 years?
I guess as has happened often with shares and financial (non-real estate) investment in NZ - individual investors are cannon fodder or just the means to an end.
leesal
14-02-2020, 11:41 AM
Look at zagga.co.nz. Not that many loans and the one at the moment is not that attractive. But very good communication and good security.
Hi Cool Bear. Been with Zagga for a year but never invested. How frequent do the loans come up?
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