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Harvey Specter
11-09-2015, 08:36 AM
I also Just had my first write off. Given you cannot access them once the loan is issued I try keep all the details provided when I invested. Here are the details of the written off loan for anyone interestedDoes make you wonder why they are written off. Appeared to have a good job and payments weren't that high. Fraud or bad circumstance?

humvee
11-09-2015, 12:34 PM
I found a few aswell:

LAI-00029657
LAI-00029664

In both cases, the income on the new dashboard was lower.

I emailed off some questions and have received some answers - Note I have only included sections of the email trail for ease of reading


Me: A number of loans show different income information between the old and new dashboards often different by more then $1000/month in some cases $4000/month. Please advise what is going on and which is right as I have made investment decisions based off the higher income before finding out that that may not be the actual income of the person.

(Detailed examples of LAI-00029655, LAI-00029657, LAI-00029664 were then given)


Harmoney: Yes, we're aware of this discrepancy between the borrowers income on the old vs. new dashboard. We're going to be fixing it so they're pulling from the same field. You'll want to refer to the old "marketplace" for a few more days until we can put in a fix.



Me: So the figures in the old market place are correct? , So what are the figures shown in the new market place?, Are the income figures shown before or after tax?

Harmoney: I don't think they're factoring in any co-borrower income (i.e. spouse) like we do on the old marketplace. We'll be adjusting them shortly, as we think this is a more accurate representation of a borrowers ability to repay.


Me: Some of the loans listed with the problems are listed as Individual loans not Joint, therefore I would have thought they are not jointly liable for the debt and only individual income should be counted. Joint/Co-borrower income should only come into play for joint loans


Harmoney: Right, it's different than a joint application. We take 50% of their spouses income simply because we're looking at all their household expenses, which factors in their spouse, so we think it's more accurate to look at a portion of their spouses income as well.

Me: Ok I think its important that investors understand that - but I haven't seen it mentioned on the site anywhere.
If you are doing that it should be shown separately just like Co-Borrower income is (eg 50% of spouse income =)

Harvey Specter
11-09-2015, 12:54 PM
Me: Ok I think its important that investors understand that - but I haven't seen it mentioned on the site anywhere.
If you are doing that it should be shown separately just like Co-Borrower income is (eg 50% of spouse income =)
So they are including 50% of the income of a (potentially) higher earning partner even though that person isn't liable for the debt? I dont think that is right to list it as income (though it could be factored into the risk rating)

humvee
11-09-2015, 02:12 PM
I just stumbled into this when looking through my old orders using the new dash board (while trying to find more info on the 1 written off loan I have - which was not this one but was the other loan in the same order)



LAI-00010604 (https://investor.harmoney.com/)
F1 31.88%
60
6.96%
$5,300
Home Improvements
100%
Funded
2
$50
0.94%


(https://investor.harmoney.com/)BORROWER DETAILSBORROWER COMMENTShome improvements - Added By KVP ADMIN- Please do not disburse these funds this account is fraud. Simon, this will need to be unwound and the account closed. -- Brad Hagstrom Chief Operating Officer harMoney



LOAN PURPOSE:Home Improvements
AGE BAND:20-29
MARITAL STATUS:Single
NZ REGION:Huntly
RESIDENTIAL STATUS:Living with Parents
TIME AT RESIDENCE:10 years
TIME AT EMPLOYER:5 years




DEFAULTS LAST 6 MONTHS:0
ENQUIRIES LAST 6 MONTHS:1
INCOME TYPE:Employment or Self Employed
MONTHLY INCOME:$6,170.25
MONTHLY LOAN PAYMENT:$177.43

Puggy
11-09-2015, 07:08 PM
Does make you wonder why they are written off. Appeared to have a good job and payments weren't that high. Fraud or bad circumstance?

The write-offs I've seen, my own included, have been after only 1 or 2 payments have been made, and typically those have been late. I suspect fraud, but without any information being provided by Harmoney on the circumstances of the write-off it's hard to say.

Bjauck
13-09-2015, 06:56 AM
The write-offs I've seen, my own included, have been after only 1 or 2 payments have been made, and typically those have been late. I suspect fraud, but without any information being provided by Harmoney on the circumstances of the write-off it's hard to say.
This has been discussed before but I do not think anyone knew the definitive answer. Now that capital write-offs are happening, it will be an important consideration. Under the taxation of financial arrangements, will individual taxpayers (i.e. those people who do not invest in Harmoney through a business or company) be able to deduct capital write-offs (charged-off principal) from their interest received from Harmoney. I think, under the taxation of financial arrangements, capital profits over the term of the arrangement are taxable but is the capital loss when a write-off occurs deductible?

mjplost
15-09-2015, 11:44 AM
While it looks as though the new dashboard has a few teething problems, I am liking it much more, what does everyones risk grade chart look like, I am definitely favouring the D grades:

7602

Harvey Specter
15-09-2015, 11:53 AM
While it looks as though the new dashboard has a few teething problems, I am liking it much more, what does everyones risk grade chart look like, I am definitely favouring the D grades:

7602Looks much better but they have got rid of the 'average return' number which is annoying.

I seem to prefer short term risk: 7603

Soolaimon
15-09-2015, 12:19 PM
Just over a year now since I started investing and although there has been some frustrations with their website my returns look ok to me. After deducting $80 from my net interest to allow for 3 loans to default ( hasn't happened yet but......) I have calculated a 14.5% taxable return on an annualized basis. This is ok by me and I am continuing to dribble in funds to try and compensate for the lower term deposit rates available from the banks.
Question......... how do you post graphs etc. from the site to this forum??? And, any ideas why they need 65 staff to run HarMoney??

Harvey Specter
15-09-2015, 12:56 PM
Question......... how do you post graphs etc. from the site to this forum??? And, any ideas why they need 65 staff to run HarMoney??I took a screen shot, cropped it in MSpaint then attached picture (picture icon when drafting).

65 people does seem a lot given I thought they had automated most of the process. They are going to have to increase their loan book significantly if they are to cover just the wages.

mjplost
15-09-2015, 02:31 PM
Just over a year now since I started investing and although there has been some frustrations with their website my returns look ok to me. After deducting $80 from my net interest to allow for 3 loans to default ( hasn't happened yet but......) I have calculated a 14.5% taxable return on an annualized basis. This is ok by me and I am continuing to dribble in funds to try and compensate for the lower term deposit rates available from the banks.
Question......... how do you post graphs etc. from the site to this forum??? And, any ideas why they need 65 staff to run HarMoney??

if your using a mac you can use command+shift+4 : select the area you want to screenshot and it will save on your desktop.

humvee
16-09-2015, 06:07 AM
Question......... how do you post graphs etc. from the site to this forum??

In windows 7 and above use "snipping tool" it included in windows as standard. And much faster then taking a screen shot then croping in paint.

Its in your start menu. If you start typing snip into thr start menu search it should show up

Soolaimon
16-09-2015, 08:45 AM
7604
Here we are with a copy of my graphs. ( I hope?)

Harvey Specter
16-09-2015, 09:39 AM
7604
Here we are with a copy of my graphs. ( I hope?)Are you aiming for a bell curve on the risk?
Did you switch to only doing 36m contracts a bit after you started (Which I did) or do you still take the occasional 60m?

humvee
16-09-2015, 09:41 AM
My portfolio is clearly waited to the higher risk higher return.

This has come about because I was seeking to balance out lower risk much lower return else ware. I started mainly investing in F, then mostly E & F, and now moving to mostly D,E,F - I am only investing $25 per loan - so am adding additional lower return grades when I cannot find enough loans that meet my criteria to invest the amount I want to. So I expected the curve to move towards lower risk/return over time.

Interestingly I have had a disproportionate amount of Arrears from A, B , C, D considering how little I have invested in them and that they should be lower risk.

7605

Cool Bear
16-09-2015, 03:27 PM
mine is well spread out

Soolaimon
16-09-2015, 05:10 PM
Are you aiming for a bell curve on the risk?
Did you switch to only doing 36m contracts a bit after you started (Which I did) or do you still take the occasional 60m?
No, not an intentional bell curve, but happy with it and will try to keep it close to what I now have as it seems to be working. Yes I have stuck to 36 month loans since soon after starting, very seldom do I take a 60 month one and generally the loans are in the 3 to 10k region.
Perhaps if I was 10 years younger I would be into more 60 month terms!!!

Cool Bear
16-09-2015, 10:03 PM
In windows 7 and above use "snipping tool" it included in windows as standard. And much faster then taking a screen shot then croping in paint.

Its in your start menu. If you start typing snip into thr start menu search it should show up

Thanks Humvee. Learn something new today.

stoploss
27-09-2015, 03:51 PM
http://www.interest.co.nz/business/77805/harmoney-builds-war-chest-aussie-launch-and-says-its-now-valued-100m

Saamee
28-09-2015, 10:38 AM
New here and also just over 1 month old with Harmoney.

Have now invested in 90 different borrowers.

Mainly just 1 x note a trade.

My mind set has been mainly 36 Month and just A & B Grades.

Rather than being greedy and hightening my risk - I see that 12% return from Harmoney is so much better than the approx 3% I get from a high street bank ( 4 times ) that I will make those criteria my 'sweet spot'.

3 of the 90 trades are already in arrears - all within 1 month.

No proactive contact or status updates from Harmoney... but helpful if you call them up and ask for updates.

They informed me that soon they will start Emailing Investors proactively about Arrears and the Status of such arrears.

I am very happy with the Harmoney Investor phone support ( Fiji based ).

The Investing website has been stable and as far as I am aware, accurate for the whle 5 weeks I have been on.

All the best :)

axe
28-09-2015, 05:25 PM
New here and also just over 1 month old with Harmoney.

Have now invested in 90 different borrowers.

Mainly just 1 x note a trade.

My mind set has been mainly 36 Month and just A & B Grades.

Rather than being greedy and hightening my risk - I see that 12% return from Harmoney is so much better than the approx 3% I get from a high street bank ( 4 times ) that I will make those criteria my 'sweet spot'.

3 of the 90 trades are already in arrears - all within 1 month.

No proactive contact or status updates from Harmoney... but helpful if you call them up and ask for updates.

They informed me that soon they will start Emailing Investors proactively about Arrears and the Status of such arrears.

I am very happy with the Harmoney Investor phone support ( Fiji based ).

The Investing website has been stable and as far as I am aware, accurate for the whle 5 weeks I have been on.

All the best :)

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for sharing your Harmoney expirience

WingingIt
30-09-2015, 08:57 PM
From the September Newsletter. Interesting feature.

"and finalising a new product that we’re introducing in October called Payment Protect. In a few weeks you’ll be receiving a detailed product description by email, and be able to read about it on the website. In the meantime, here’s the 30,000 foot view...
What is Payment Protect?
It's a repayment waiver offered to borrowers to help protect them against unexpected events that may impact their ability to make loan repayments, such as job loss, sickness, disability or death.

How does it work?
Borrowers pay an additional Protect Fee as part of their monthly loan repayments. In return, investors agree to waive their repayments under certain conditions.

How does this benefit Investors?
Investors earn the Payment Protect fee plus interest, less the cost of claims and fees. It is expected that loans with Payment Protect will add additional yield to investors of over 1% per annum on Payment Protect loans, on a portfolio basis.

Investors in loans with Payment Protect may also benefit from reduced defaults as they are waiving repayments at a time in a borrower's life when there may otherwise be a high propensity to default."

Kees
30-09-2015, 09:57 PM
I certainly will not be investing in these loans.

mjplost
02-10-2015, 09:54 AM
I certainly will not be investing in these loans.

Agreed, no real value to investors from my point of view. I am hoping that these will be clearly labeled.

winner69
06-10-2015, 12:54 PM
You guys might be interested in this - how p2p going in Britain

http://citywire.co.uk/Publications/WEB_Resources/Creative/Income_Investor/Income_Investor_Issue_15.pdf?utm_campaign=income-investor&utm_source=citywire&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2015--issue-15-sep--email--pdf

mjplost
08-10-2015, 11:19 AM
Anyone else getting an increase in paid off loans? I am assuming this is due to re-writes?

Cool Bear
08-10-2015, 02:22 PM
Yes, I have only been in for about 4 months and about 3% of loans have been repaid - but that is ok a figure to me. Heaps of loans in arrears and my first default today LAI-00024377 E5. Expect a lot more now that I am in the 4th month from the long list of arrears. Hopefully not more than Harmoney's predicted default rate.

Soolaimon
08-10-2015, 02:52 PM
Anyone else getting an increase in paid off loans? I am assuming this is due to re-writes?

Last 2 months havn't been too bad for pay offs, but before that I was getting 1 every 2nd day there for a while. Harmoney does expect that about 28% of loans will be paid off before maturity and so far that looks to be about right. Been in for over 12 months now and quite happy after a few niggles early on. 10 loans in arrears and no defaults.

mjplost
08-10-2015, 03:15 PM
Yes, I have only been in for about 4 months and about 3% of loans have been repaid - but that is ok a figure to me. Heaps of loans in arrears and my first default today LAI-00024377 E5. Expect a lot more now that I am in the 4th month from the long list of arrears. Hopefully not more than Harmoney's predicted default rate.

I invest mainly in C and D grades and currently only have 2 in arrears, which I think is quite good.

Although, I think this number will greatly increase with Christmas just round the corner.

Halebop
10-10-2015, 09:20 PM
14 Months investing via Harmoney:
Invested $12,000 over a short space of time then paused, unhappy with data quality and various back of house issues
Started investing new funds in the last week or so
All returns re-invested
Currently around 90% 3 Year, 10% 6 year terms
Generally invest just $25 per loan except for a handful of mistakes where I've doubled up in error but will rethink this approach with my escalation of commitment vs typical available loan volumes
Focus on B to E Loans, E appear to be a modest pricing sweet spot when compared to expected default rates. I personally think F are mis-priced and avoid them

Stats to Date:
791 loans made
163 early repayments
625 Active loans including those in arrears
3 Defaults (around 97% of loan values)
Typically 50+ arrears at any moment in time
Annualised, around 18% pre-tax, 13% after-tax in the 1st 12 months

"Payment Protect" Product:
I've run payment protection insurance schemes for loan products and credit cards. Managed properly they make great profits. Employment shocks can impact short term but this tends to be offset by high returns in good times. The devil is in the detail and I'd advise those opting out before it is even launched to understand it first. I'm interested but want to understand the specifics...

black knat
14-10-2015, 09:32 AM
Thanks for that Halebop.
Like you I started investing around 14 months ago after doing a lot of reading on P2P overseas. I have a strong bias to D and E grade loans. Don't do A and very few B. I am happy to take 60 month loans as indications from overseas suggest that these have a similar default profile to 36 month loans. Also in the long term should reduce the amount of work involved in reinvesting. I generally take 1 or 2 units although initially I took up to 5 as I found it difficult to build the portfolio quickly enough in $25 and $50 lots.
my stats;
$75,000 invested.
1450 loans made
124 loans in arrears,
16 written off.
Annualised 20.6% gross - excluding the effect of compounding interest as I reinvest everything.

Harvey Specter
14-10-2015, 09:56 AM
Thanks for sharing Halebop & Black Knat

I am liking the new dashboard. The custom filters and setting one as a default has reduce alot of time spent - if only it didn't log you out after 10 or so minutes, it would be so quick to go in to check for new loans. The lack of loans is still an issue when trying to invest new funds (not such an issue with reinvestment as normally I only need to do 1 or 2 at a time) if you only want 1 or 2 per loan.

I seem to have been disproportionately hit with defaults but my returns are still in the high teens (before tax but after fees and write-offs) so not complaining.

Still favouring the E's but trying to get a bit of a better spread. Currently only doing 36m (which limits choice) as that is my liquidity strategy until they get a secondary market - I know I can get all my cash out within 3 years, rather than 5.

Valleytrader
14-10-2015, 07:08 PM
7 months investing with Harmoney. Initially started with larger loan amounts, but have since moved to $25 per loan. My median investment is currently $25, with an average of around $36.

Slowly building up investment over time, with approx $3000 invested at the moment. A mix of loan grades from A to D, with a weighted average return after fees but before tax of 14.6 percent. A tad risk adverse, so no E or F grade loans.

Currently 60% of investment is for 36 month loans. Would like to increase this proportion, but have trouble finding loans with the grades I'm wanting for this term. Currently 86 loans with one in arrears (didn't make the first repayment!). Overall pretty happy, but need to see how repayments are affected by an economic slowdown. Would be interested in the ability to trade on a secondary market.

GTM 3442
16-10-2015, 10:34 PM
I see that one of the U.K. p2p crowds is having a rough time of it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/11932850/New-12pc-peer-to-peer-firm-freezes-investors-cash.html

Halebop
16-10-2015, 11:17 PM
I see that one of the U.K. p2p crowds is having a rough time of it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/11932850/New-12pc-peer-to-peer-firm-freezes-investors-cash.html

Looks more like theft than a rough time!

percy
17-10-2015, 10:10 AM
As the old saying goes,"the return of your capital is more important than your return on capital.!

winner69
17-10-2015, 10:18 AM
Are the interest rates charged floating or fixed for the period of the loan

scottwalshnz
17-10-2015, 02:30 PM
Are the interest rates charged floating or fixed for the period of the loan

Fixed for the period. 3 or 5yrs.

humvee
19-10-2015, 02:27 PM
Just Had my 2nd write off - Details I have below

LOAN ID: LAI-00015523RECEIVED PAYMENTS

LAST PAYMENT DATE:Jul 15, 2015
LAST PAYMENT AMOUNT:$0.90
PAYMENTS TO DATE:$0.90
PRINCIPAL:$0.00
GROSS INT. PAID:$0.90


UPCOMING PAYMENTS

PAYMENT DUE:N/A
EXPECTED FINAL PAYMENT:N/A
OUTSTANDING PRINCIPAL:$25.00


WRITE-OFFS / ARREARS

WRITTEN-OFF PRINCIPAL:$25.00
AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$4.52




Borrower Details


Residential Status: Boarding
Income Type: Employment or Self Employed
Borrower Comments: I really need this loan to consolidate all my debt i would really appreciate it if you invest
Age Band: 20-29
Marital Status: Single
NZ Region: Christchurch
Time at Current Residence: 0.6 Years
Time at Current Employment: NA
Loan Purpose: Other Defaults in last 6 months: 0
Enquiries in last 6 months: 1
Application Type: Individual
Monthly Income Total: 2464.43
Loan Details


Loan Submitted: 04-01-2015 at 09:13PM
Monthly Payment: $191.62
Review Status: Approved
Loan Grade: F3
Loan Type: Unsecured

humvee
19-10-2015, 02:32 PM
What would be interesting to understand is why the loan above has been written off when another loan that has had no repayments at all since April is still active. - See below



LAI-00012115 (https://investor.harmoney.com/)
Mar 9, 2015
Arrears
E3
27.18%
$25.00
$25.00
$0.77
60
60
Nov 9, 2015


(https://investor.harmoney.com/)LOAN ID: LAI-00012115RECEIVED PAYMENTS

LAST PAYMENT DATE:Apr 21, 2015
LAST PAYMENT AMOUNT:$0.77
PAYMENTS TO DATE:$0.77
PRINCIPAL:$0.00
GROSS INT. PAID:$0.77


UPCOMING PAYMENTS

PAYMENT DUE:Nov 9, 2015
EXPECTED FINAL PAYMENT:Mar 9, 2020
OUTSTANDING PRINCIPAL:$25.00


WRITE-OFFS / ARREARS

WRITTEN-OFF PRINCIPAL:$0.00
AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$4.60

Soolaimon
19-10-2015, 04:24 PM
Just had my first defaults (3) and like Humvee I wonder at the logic. 2 of the loans had their last payment back in May so you could expect a problem there, but the other loan had it's last payment only last month. Also, I notice that the arrears amount from the defaulted loans are still included in my arrears tally. Can't see the point in this.
I think it's about time Harmoney explained some details to us investors. It would be nice to know more about the grading of the loans, eg are they calculated by an individual or is there a simple formular fed into a computer and for the borrower's income, is that verified sufficiently to counteract fraud.

Harvey Specter
20-10-2015, 12:45 PM
Well at least you know this person cant apply for a No Assets Procedure! (cant apply twice)


BORROWER DETAILS

BORROWER COMMENTS

To have some form of credit after being on Non Asset Procedure (5 years ) would be a huge benefit following my father,s death I could finally lay him to rest.


LOAN PURPOSE:Other
AGE BAND:50-59
MARITAL STATUS:Single
NZ REGION:Palmerston North
RESIDENTIAL STATUS:Renting
TIME AT RESIDENCE:3 years
TIME AT EMPLOYER:10 years

Saamee
31-10-2015, 02:15 PM
Anybody else tried to 'balance' the Harmoney Investor Fee figures show on the dashboard??

The Investor Service Fee is stated as being 1.25% of Principal and Interest returned to the Investor.....

From my calcualtion included below - Currently I make the Investor Service Fee being taken by Harmoney as only 0.0075% ( 50% of the real amount )

Am I mistaken with my maths somewhere or is this yet another Harmoney System Error?


7701

Snow Leopard
31-10-2015, 02:49 PM
1.25% of $1,898.36 = $23.73

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Halebop
31-10-2015, 03:16 PM
Am I mistaken with my maths somewhere or is this yet another Harmoney System Error?


If you are trying to reconcile I think you need to back out the value of early repayments. These don't attract the fee.

When I had a small volume of loans the fees reconciled so I didn't feel any concern.

However the data extra function doesn't deliver the required features to answer this question with 100% accuracy. You could impute it by discounting the interest received on paid off loans to subsequently model what the early repayment of principal was (this won't quite be accurate because the borrower may have also been late on some repayments)... if that doesn't sound like fun Harmoney probably need to strengthen their feature-set; either via the pre-canned reporting or a richer dataset in the extract.

Saamee
31-10-2015, 04:50 PM
Hi Paper Tiger,

Above is the actual figure that Harmoney has taken > $14.23

Yes I calculate it should be $23.73

I appear to be $9.50 better off ( $23.73 - 14.23 )

Lucky me :)

humvee
02-11-2015, 08:52 PM
Some readers of this thread might be interested in the thread i have just started for Squirrel money p2p
http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?10407-Squirrel-Money-P2P&p=596012#post596012

humvee
03-11-2015, 01:07 PM
3rd Default now.

Other then the obvious higher risk of an F Grade - I don't think I really missed anything on this one that could have helped me avoid it

LAI*00013880
F2 33.93%
36 8.36% $5,100 Household Items
0%
Funded 1 $25
BORROWER DETAILS


BORROWER COMMENTS
None


LOAN PURPOSE:Household Items
AGE BAND:30-39
MARITAL STATUS:Single
NZ REGION:Napier
RESIDENTIAL STATUS:Renting
TIME AT RESIDENCE:5 years
TIME AT EMPLOYER:3 years
DEFAULTS LAST 6 MONTHS:0
ENQUIRIES LAST 6 MONTHS:1
INCOME TYPE:Employment or Self Employed
MONTHLY LOAN PAYMENT:$227.83
MONTHLY INCOME
BORROWER INCOME:$3,127.00


LAI-00013880 Mar 16, 2015 Charged Off F2 33.93% $25.00 $24.60 $1.00 36 0 N/A
LOAN ID: LAI-00013880


RECEIVED PAYMENTS
LAST PAYMENT DATE:Jul 16, 2015
LAST PAYMENT AMOUNT:$0.28
PAYMENTS TO DATE:$1.40
PRINCIPAL:$0.40
GROSS INT. PAID:$1.01
UPCOMING PAYMENTS
PAYMENT DUE:N/A
EXPECTED FINAL PAYMENT:N/A
OUTSTANDING PRINCIPAL:$24.60
WRITE-OFFS / ARREARS
WRITTEN-OFF PRINCIPAL:$24.60
AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$5.30

humvee
03-11-2015, 01:13 PM
At this stage it is to early to say if defaults are tracking in line with expectations or harmoney's predictions for grade and number of notes owned. but certainly could be in line with predictions, although with actively choosing notes I would be hoping to do better then average/predictions

I would be really interested to have more info about why they were written off, Eg no assets procedure, bankrupt, fraud, left the country etc

Mort
06-11-2015, 08:21 AM
[QUOTE=Halebop;595830]If you are trying to reconcile I think you need to back out the value of early repayments. These don't attract the fee.

Are you sure about this Halebop? My understanding was fee's are not charged on rewrites but are charged on early repayments.

Cool Bear
10-11-2015, 08:35 AM
I just work out that because of early repayments, the fees charged by Harmoney works out to an equivalent 2.15% instead of 1.25%.

Some background:
Invested for about 6 months and now well over 1000 loans (minimal amounts each).

Say my total repayments received up to now - interest and capital (without early repayment) - is $X. The total fees I have paid if expressed as a percentage of that $X works out to be 2.15%.

As a note to the earlier posts on fees being less than 1.25% in total.
If you take your total fees and divide it by the total of "capital repayments" and interest, it will be less than 1.25%.

This is because "capital repayments" not only includes the genuine early repayments (where the 1.25% applies) but also those loans where the borrower changes his/her mind after getting it filled (we do not pay fees on these).

mjplost
12-11-2015, 07:06 AM
I just work out that because of early repayments, the fees charged by Harmoney works out to an equivalent 2.15% instead of 1.25%.

Some background:
Invested for about 6 months and now well over 1000 loans (minimal amounts each).

Say my total repayments received up to now - interest and capital (without early repayment) - is $X. The total fees I have paid if expressed as a percentage of that $X works out to be 2.15%.

As a note to the earlier posts on fees being less than 1.25% in total.
If you take your total fees and divide it by the total of "capital repayments" and interest, it will be less than 1.25%.

This is because "capital repayments" not only includes the genuine early repayments (where the 1.25% applies) but also those loans where the borrower changes his/her mind after getting it filled (we do not pay fees on these).

Whats your current default rate on that many loans?

Cool Bear
12-11-2015, 11:16 AM
Whats your current default rate on that many loans?
It has only been 6 months and I note that Harmoney only write off a loan after several months of non payment.

I have 3 loans in default and expect many more in the next few months. According to my spreadsheet, my average default rate (based on Harmoney's estimated default rates) for current active loans is 2.74%. As the 3 defaults relates to my earlier two months, it does seems that as a percentage for those months, the default is way way above Harmoney estimates. But then the population size is rather small then. Hopefully over the next 18 to 20 months, it will even out to below their estimates.

humvee
12-11-2015, 12:45 PM
Whats your current default rate on that many loans?


I have ~500 Loans The oldest being issued in Feb 2015.

So far ~1% have been written off and ~10% are in arrears

Strangely I had one loan that was written off when the most recent payment was less then 3 weeks ago. I have asked harmoney to explain why this would happen.

mjplost
17-11-2015, 07:35 AM
I have ~500 Loans The oldest being issued in Feb 2015.

So far ~1% have been written off and ~10% are in arrears

Strangely I had one loan that was written off when the most recent payment was less then 3 weeks ago. I have asked harmoney to explain why this would happen.


Did you get a reply?

Soolaimon
17-11-2015, 08:03 AM
Did you get a reply?
I had the same situation a month or so ago when the last payment to a written off loan was only 3 weeks previous to the write off date. I called Harmoney and they advised that it was a case of the borrower suddenly could not make further payments and all attempts to rectify the situation by Harmoney were to no avail. Not really a satisfactory reply, they should have a system to say why loans are written off.
Another thing. Just lately I have had several loans that have been filled but not issued. This is annoying and time consuming. Occaisionly this happens if the loan you are investing in only has a few notes left when you order, but I have made a point of checking that this is not the case and it still happens.

Saamee
18-11-2015, 04:25 AM
Yes here to. Yesterday I invested in 8 notes, on 8 separate occassions, each time I received the indicidual Order confimration # on the screen. I thought it must just be me. Now I see they have a system issue.

humvee
18-11-2015, 08:54 AM
Did you get a reply?

I did to reasons for write off's - but not why it would be written off so soon after last payment - reasons given below

LAI-00024948 - Loss of job
LAI-00015523 - Borrower unwilling to pay - legal action being pursued
LAI-00010605 - Borrower unwilling to pay - legal action being pursued
LAI-00013061 - Left country
LAI-00013880 - Borrower unwilling to pay - legal action being pursued


Q:"What is the process if money is recovered from written off loans - Do they get unwritten off? Do investors get money back?
Also Just wondering why LAI-00015523 would be written off when the most recent payment was 15th October - So only ~3w before it was written off.


I would have thought that except in a suituation like Bankruptcy, NAP or maybe death this would be to soon to conclude that it is a write off."

A:" Yes, investors are still paid any funds received from a borrower after it is charged off/written off, although the status doesn't change.


The business hasn't decided whether or not they are going to add a status update for arrears/charge offs, although I don't think it's a bad idea.


I'm not quite sure, this is outside of my daily responsibilities to decide if/when to charge off a loan. We have a collections team dedicated to working on these issues, so they make that determination based on the facts they receive."

Bjauck
25-11-2015, 08:56 AM
I have wondered how keen Harmoney would be at pursuing non-payment. After all, it is the investors' money (and not their own money) they would be pursuing. And it would be the investors who would be out of pocket if repayment does not eventuate!

For taxation, are service fees tax-deductible for an individual taxpayer? Likewise, are "charge-offs" (write-offs) tax deductible? I asked this some time ago, but no-one seemed to know the answer. As both service fees and charge-offs seemed to be becoming material amounts, it must be relevant for the return from a Harmoney investment if taxable income allows for them.

Harvey Specter
25-11-2015, 10:12 AM
To an extent you are right but they have modelled their default rate and I dont think they would want to adjust those for the worse. So yes, if defaults are low, they are not incentivised to chase but if they are high, then they would - if that makes sense.

My guess is service fees should be deductable. charge-offs a bit more difficult. I have invested through an entity which is in the business of investing so I am more comfortable claiming the deduction than if I had just done a couple of hundred in my own name. The rules around financial arrangements are complicated unfortunately.

777
25-11-2015, 10:17 AM
I deduct the service fees(expense against revenue) but in my opinion the write offs are not deductible.

However you need to keep records yourself as the total service fees already cover two tax years.I believe Harmony should inform you what the service fee total for tax year when they raise the tax certificate. I had to ask for the figure for the last financial tax year.

Darchie
25-11-2015, 11:24 AM
I see they are down - mind you I was in process of doing a balance and saw that they were a bit light with their service fee - and yes I have deducted off the "Yellow" loans - those that can out within the consumer 7 day cool off period.

There is quite a lot around these re-written loans that concern me as an invester - as it does appear that Harmoney is extremely active with their promotion of 'top-ups' to their borrowers.

I have four loans that paid Harmoney back on the 17th (now the 25th) and still Harmoney has not passed these funds over to me! - they are saying that there is a glitch within their system and some investers are affected! and they only seem to know which investers these are - "only when the invester rings in!!!" this really instills confidence doesn't it?

Have popped in as a test 40K so far - unfortunately in hind-sight I should have drip feed it in - that way I could have peppered it across many more offerings! but - with all these DREADFUL re-writes I will have a choice at that stage of peppering or actually starting the withdraw process - as I am annoyed that Harmoney ARE clipping that Ticket many Many Times Over. I would like to know the FULL number each borrower has actually topped up - I'd say over time it'll be quite frequently that this'll occur!

I understand that many have been hammering Harmoney for more transparency and they are in the throws of being close to releasing more features on their site - mind you their site needs to be able to handle current traffic!

Squirrel Money turned me cold when I combed it - Bring on LendMe now that is one that is looking a better one to go hand in hand with a wee dabble on Harmoney. Be interested once a thread gets underway on that - it has a beta version running now and plans to go live at beginning of December.

Oh and another aspect I have talked with Harmoney about is with a loan that is re-written and is fully funded - Harmoney then pays out the previous lot of investers - I asked how long does that money sit in their system and I was told about a week! (and I've fould they always estimate shorter times that actually happen!) OMG this is not funds they can say are held up by the bank in Trust Accounts with DD clearance - this delay is being put down to that the credit back to the many investers is done manually!!! how can that be in a fully computerised system! I say: a porky or two - or is it once again once an invester is inside the system the rosy glasses are removed!

Bjauck
25-11-2015, 12:58 PM
I deduct the service fees(expense against revenue) but in my opinion the write offs are not deductible.

However you need to keep records yourself as the total service fees already cover two tax years.I believe Harmony should inform you what the service fee total for tax year when they raise the tax certificate. I had to ask for the figure for the last financial tax year.

Thanks. I would have thought Harmoney would have sought a ruling from Inland Revenue on the deductibility of "service fees" and "charge offs" as it would be relevant to many individuals investing with them. This information should be freely available from their site and end of tax year statements from Harmoney should also include service fees and write off figures.

Addendum: As opposed to the last time I emailed them about charge-offs, I actually got a reply from Investor enquiries: " For charged off principal ....The IRD has not given us a definitive answer to this question. You'll have to consult your tax advisor or accountant. We have some customer’s using this as a deductible expense and others waiting for a formal response...."

I wonder when they will get a definitive response as they have now been in business for many months...

Saamee
28-11-2015, 09:18 PM
Anyone Else Ever Considered that Just Maybe Harmoney Uses a Few "Fakes Loans"??

I have now invested in just over 200 individual loans with Harmoney.

Just this week 3 have been repaid just a little after 1 Month of being instigated.

I recall back when investing around that time that on a particular Saturday many many of the loans had almost the same borrower criteria ( like a copy and past action! ) same words, same amount, same term length, same eranings maybe just a different south island location!

Just wondering? Harmoney would most likely earn more through the service fee than paying out 1 months inetrest??

christheinvestor
01-12-2015, 10:03 AM
I'm struggling to understand the charge-off policy. I had one loan charged off after about 2-3 months without payment. I have another that hasn't had a payment since July and is still sitting in arrears. Unfortunately Harmoney's incentives aren't aligned with their investors', so I won't be continuing to invest with these guys.

Marque
01-12-2015, 10:45 AM
I'm struggling to understand the charge-off policy. I had one loan charged off after about 2-3 months without payment. I have another that hasn't had a payment since July and is still sitting in arrears. Unfortunately Harmoney's incentives aren't aligned with their investors', so I won't be continuing to invest with these guys.

Would be great if Harmoney were allowed to join and answer any questions rather than going through the contact us page on their website and wait for an answer.

Users could pool their questions and set up a time for a Q&A. Thoughts?

In the meantime a new player entered the market today - LendMe with 'soft launch' (http://www.interest.co.nz/business/78926/third-licensed-peer-peer-lender-lendme-underway-arranging-secured-loans)

christheinvestor
03-12-2015, 06:42 AM
Got a response about my two loans (one charged off quickly, the other with last payment in July):


LAI-00004967 - Filed bankruptcy

LAI-00004733 - There has been contact with the borrower with tentative agreements to pay. They're going through financial difficulty but they're demonstrating at least a willingness to pay when their circumstances improve.

winner69
04-12-2015, 02:19 PM
LAI-00004733 - There has been contact with the borrower with tentative agreements to pay. They're going through financial difficulty but they're demonstrating at least a willingness to pay when their circumstances improve.

Makes you wonder how bad the thousands who don't make it through the first gate must be

Was this a E or F loan?

WingingIt
11-12-2015, 12:17 PM
Looks like they decided to just go on the Honeymoon and not continue with their repayment obligations.
77567757

Lewylewylewy
11-12-2015, 01:42 PM
I wouldn't have funded that - I don't fund anyone who isn't capable of basic spelling, grammar or syntax. If they can't be bothered to write one sentence correctly to explain what they want to borrow my money for, that's a no in my books.

Also, has anyone noticed that loan descriptions often don't match the loan type these days?

Personally, I'm exiting from Harmoney. I don't have confidence in it (borrowers or the company).

winner69
11-12-2015, 06:51 PM
You guys seem to get all sorts of borrowers. Does make you wonder how they get through the 'screening' process doesn't it

There are several large funders who have put tens of millions to lend out. Wonder if they get the first dibs of all the good ones and leave the likes of you with the 'less attractive' ones. Hard to imagine that Heartland for instance had $25 invested in the cases you have raised.

Just a cynical view and pure speculation

PennyPicker
12-12-2015, 08:17 AM
Intriguing article in the NZ Herald this morning; http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11559906.

Robuste
12-12-2015, 12:57 PM
Mary Holmes article is worth reading as well. Her correspondant has asked many of the questions that have come to my mind when "self assessing" the quality of loans on offer.

Kees
12-12-2015, 01:42 PM
You guys seem to get all sorts of borrowers. Does make you wonder how they get through the 'screening' process doesn't it

There are several large funders who have put tens of millions to lend out. Wonder if they get the first dibs of all the good ones and leave the likes of you with the 'less attractive' ones. Hard to imagine that Heartland for instance had $25 invested in the cases you have raised.

Just a cynical view and pure speculation

Yes pure crap as per most of your post's

I am invested in Harmoney and stick to A + B and if I want to gamble I will buy 1 unit in the higher % offerings but they come at a cost because those loans have a higher failure rate.
I have invested in Harmoney since the beginning and am quite happy with the resuls so far.
Instead of always trying to fault a business and not involving yourself money wise you should get your wallet out and give it a go you may be pleasantly surprised. (that is if you have any)

777
12-12-2015, 05:21 PM
Well Kees as an investor I am in full agreement with winner and am slowly extracting my money from them.

Kees
12-12-2015, 07:32 PM
Well Kees as an investor I am in full agreement with winner and am slowly extracting my money from them.

well that is your choice I have just increased my holdings and sticking with the A & B on 30k late payments amount to $29 no losses yet now
increased to 35k and although I am finding that I have to go on site at least twice a day to pick the loans it is a interesting pastime.

Lewylewylewy
14-12-2015, 09:46 AM
True, it is kinda fun picking the loans - it's like picking a horse :)

I only invested 10k in harmony to dip a toe in the water (then another 2.5k later, because I read a particularly compelling case for the money). It's been a rollercoaster and I've mostly invested in high risk ones D-E. The only ones I've had fail have been A grade... The returns have been dropping off and it's not clear from the interface why that would be.

When I first started with Harmoney, my returns didn't add up. I contacted the company and some payments came through a few weeks later correcting this.... They were basically having issues.

I suspect I've fallen into the "having issues" camp again.

I really wanted Harmoney to do well, especially as a TME shareholder. But man, they grind my gears, they have a LOT of things to sort out (IT and process) that I just don't have confidence in them ever fixing. It's like the whole thing has been created by an accountant without collaboration from a software architect & BI. Also they just aren't responsive and don't meet their targets when they said they'd improve their interface - it took months longer than they said it would.

I'm waiting for Squirrel to mature a bit, then I'll have a play in that sandpit before going big.

I'm sure with proper vetting of borrowers, P2P can be a great part of a robust retirement income.

Kees
14-12-2015, 09:57 AM
True, it is kinda fun picking the loans - it's like picking a horse :)

I only invested 10k in harmony to dip a toe in the water (then another 2.5k later, because I read a particularly compelling case for the money). It's been a rollercoaster and I've mostly invested in high risk ones D-E. The only ones I've had fail have been A grade... The returns have been dropping off and it's not clear from the interface why that would be.

When I first started with Harmoney, my returns didn't add up. I contacted the company and some payments came through a few weeks later correcting this.... They were basically having issues.

I suspect I've fallen into the "having issues" camp again.

I really wanted Harmoney to do well, especially as a TME shareholder. But man, they grind my gears, they have a LOT of things to sort out (IT and process) that I just don't have confidence in them ever fixing. It's like the whole thing has been created by an accountant without collaboration from a software architect & BI. Also they just aren't responsive and don't meet their targets when they said they'd improve their interface - it took months longer than they said it would.

I'm waiting for Squirrel to mature a bit, then I'll have a play in that sandpit before going big.

I'm sure with proper vetting of borrowers, P2P can be a great part of a robust retirement income.

:)it's like picking a horse .

Yes but it is a long race to see who wins. :t_up:

winner69
14-12-2015, 10:00 AM
P2P quite attractive to hedge funds, pension funds etc as well as the known funders.

All looking for ways to get their returns above the assumed 7% figure - and that means allocating a small % of their funds to where thy can get high double digit returns outside of traditional ways.

Besides the known funders don't know the extent of this happening in NZ but seems to suggest that the most efficient and reliable platform could will be the winner

humvee
14-12-2015, 10:35 AM
At the moment Im using both harmoney and Squirrel (with hugely more in harmoney)

I cannot help but think that harmoney dont want to improve the reports because it would show the returns are below what is claimed.

These numbers are only approx due to no report to get it directly from harmoney (so I had to average the deposit dates) - If harmoney wishes to disagree with my figures I would welcome them to contact me and tell me where to access a more accurate report, If im wrong I'll happily post the revised numbers here.

I have access to figures from 2 accounts

70 Loans (D,E,F) 9.1% after fees & writeoffs (At one point this dropped to less then 1% due to writeoff's)

Over 500 Loans (D,E,F, And a few C) 11.1% after fees & writeoffs

Based on the loan selection and harmoneys advertised figures the return should be just under 20% after fees and writeoffs

humvee
14-12-2015, 10:55 AM
I would like to see the following reports/figures available

Estimated annual % return base off actual last 6 or 12 months rolling average. this should use 12 months data if available on the account otherwise use 12 months

Aged amount in arrears - If some one is 2 or 3 days late (could be due to bank processing times, public holidays etc) this does not tell me much - The 2 figures I care about are arrears greater then 5 days and Mostly Arrears greater then 35 days

Also you cannot see from the full loan details from the charged off/arrears reports you need to get the loan ID then go into the orders and open each order and try and find the order that contains that loan - a very slow task given there could be 10+ orders over the 3+day period that the date of the loan could match too, When an export is done from the reports/market place screen I would like to see FULL details exported including comments, income, repayment amount, age, location, loan reason etc

Colgar
16-12-2015, 12:17 PM
P2P quite attractive to hedge funds, pension funds etc as well as the known funders.

All looking for ways to get their returns above the assumed 7% figure - and that means allocating a small % of their funds to where thy can get high double digit returns outside of traditional ways.

Besides the known funders don't know the extent of this happening in NZ but seems to suggest that the most efficient and reliable platform could will be the winner

For me to use P2P as an investor it's got to be easy to:

Sign up
Deposit funds
View returns easily


The most important thing though is for the platform to be trustworthy. Double dipping and loan churn from Harmoney makes me wonder who their working for. Not that far off behaving like a bank really.

Colgar
16-12-2015, 12:28 PM
At the moment Im using both harmoney and Squirrel (with hugely more in harmoney)

I cannot help but think that harmoney dont want to improve the reports because it would show the returns are below what is claimed.

Their objective isn't to provide better information, it's to get more investors. The way to do that is show the big number returns. I've only got a small number invested, but I can't really determine my returns vs what's over due and so forth.

What with it being totally unsecured and Harmoney re-writing loans, I'm glad I haven't invested more.

I could try setting up with Squirrel again, anyone tried LendMe?

winner69
16-12-2015, 12:36 PM
The most important thing though is for the platform to be trustworthy. Double dipping and loan churn from Harmoney makes me wonder who their working for. Not that far off behaving like a bank really.

Interesting thoughts ......hmmmm

permutation
16-12-2015, 06:23 PM
I would like to see the following reports/figures available

Estimated annual % return base off actual last 6 or 12 months rolling average. this should use 12 months data if available on the account otherwise use 12 months

Aged amount in arrears - If some one is 2 or 3 days late (could be due to bank processing times, public holidays etc) this does not tell me much - The 2 figures I care about are arrears greater then 5 days and Mostly Arrears greater then 35 days

Also you cannot see from the full loan details from the charged off/arrears reports you need to get the loan ID then go into the orders and open each order and try and find the order that contains that loan - a very slow task given there could be 10+ orders over the 3+day period that the date of the loan could match too, When an export is done from the reports/market place screen I would like to see FULL details exported including comments, income, repayment amount, age, location, loan reason etc

:t_up: Right on. I agree, it is very frustrating having to look for the original loan application details manually. Harmoney should put the order reference number on each borrower's expanded loan ID which would make it far easier to search.

Another frustration I find is that when you look at an order number, can't find the loan you want, then select the "Back to order history" button; it takes you back right to the top of the orders list instead of resuming from where you have just been!

Colgar
17-12-2015, 08:09 AM
:t_up: Right on. I agree, it is very frustrating having to look for the original loan application details manually. Harmoney should put the order reference number on each borrower's expanded loan ID which would make it far easier to search.

Another frustration I find is that when you look at an order number, can't find the loan you want, then select the "Back to order history" button; it takes you back right to the top of the orders list instead of resuming from where you have just been!

Yeah that sucks. It's a small thing, but small things add up to big things and as winner69 said "the most efficient and reliable platform could will be the winner"

P.S. every time I log in, I receive an email about spending more or letting me know that I can borrow up to $XX. Just stop.

Lewylewylewy
17-12-2015, 11:01 AM
Yeah that sucks. It's a small thing, but small things add up to big things and as winner69 said "the most efficient and reliable platform could will be the winner"

P.S. every time I log in, I receive an email about spending more or letting me know that I can borrow up to $XX. Just stop.

You don't think that Harmoney's higher returns will keep it afloat over the likes of Squirrel?

The way I view it:

Squirrel are offering a lower rate, which will attract borrowers more. Harmoney give a higher rate that will attract investors. Any p2p platform needs to attract whichever party is more difficult to attract, as neither can operate without the other (you can't borrow if there are no lenders available and vice versa).

Unfortunately for Harmoney, their rates are set up to attract investors mainly (while still being lower than the bank, so as to attract borrowers!), whilst at the same time they stuff their investors with things like bad interfaces, double dipping, etc...

The end result will be that the best platform will win if the other platforms are rubbish. Ultimately the winner will be the business that provides a good enough platform AND good enough returns to attract and keep investors AND offers a good enough incentive for borrowers (which is easy - just charge less than the banks) AND creates some kind of reliability to the investment. Reliability could be in the form of vetting borrowers more thoroughly, offering insurance, low enough interest to give a better range of borrowers to choose from, etc...

Harmoney (IMO) are incapable of making a good product and have no interest in ensuring the quality of their borrowers. They do however, offer great returns which cater to the high risk, high return market segment, which may be enough to keep bumbling on (until another provider decides to expand to tap this market also).

Side note: If Harmoney created a secondary loan market, they would have a massive exodus of their older investors who would never come back. That gives them up to 6 years (length of their longest loan term) to sort their house out. After investors leave, they probably wouldn't bother reassessing the platform as an opportunity. During this next 6 years they are forced to interact with the system, which creates opportunity for Harmoney to change their minds. Doing things like double dipping is NOT helping their case.

humvee
17-12-2015, 11:03 AM
Just running the numbers of how bad the rewrites are, My oldest loans are 10 months old - so under a year old

Loans Older then 1 Month
9.25% Have been repaid already
Loans Older then 3 Months
14% Have Been repaid already
Loans Older then 6 Months
17% Have been Repaid Already

Lewylewylewy
17-12-2015, 11:07 AM
Wish I had all my loans rewritten so I could get my money back. The rewrite feature might kill off Harmoney by allowing it's investors to leave earlier.

Colgar
17-12-2015, 01:17 PM
Jesus, the last couple of posts (actually pages) make Harmoney sound like they're playing the short game - get in and get out.

What sort of impact will this attitude have on public sentiment towards p2p in NZ?

Colgar
17-12-2015, 01:25 PM
You don't think that Harmoney's higher returns will keep it afloat over the likes of Squirrel?

The way I view it:

Squirrel are offering a lower rate, which will attract borrowers more. Harmoney give a higher rate that will attract investors. Any p2p platform needs to attract whichever party is more difficult to attract, as neither can operate without the other (you can't borrow if there are no lenders available and vice versa).

Unfortunately for Harmoney, their rates are set up to attract investors mainly (while still being lower than the bank, so as to attract borrowers!), whilst at the same time they stuff their investors with things like bad interfaces, double dipping, etc...

The end result will be that the best platform will win if the other platforms are rubbish. Ultimately the winner will be the business that provides a good enough platform AND good enough returns to attract and keep investors AND offers a good enough incentive for borrowers (which is easy - just charge less than the banks) AND creates some kind of reliability to the investment. Reliability could be in the form of vetting borrowers more thoroughly, offering insurance, low enough interest to give a better range of borrowers to choose from, etc...

Harmoney (IMO) are incapable of making a good product and have no interest in ensuring the quality of their borrowers. They do however, offer great returns which cater to the high risk, high return market segment, which may be enough to keep bumbling on (until another provider decides to expand to tap this market also).

Side note: If Harmoney created a secondary loan market, they would have a massive exodus of their older investors who would never come back. That gives them up to 6 years (length of their longest loan term) to sort their house out. After investors leave, they probably wouldn't bother reassessing the platform as an opportunity. During this next 6 years they are forced to interact with the system, which creates opportunity for Harmoney to change their minds. Doing things like double dipping is NOT helping their case.

Yes both sides are playing chicken and the egg. Harmoney with institutional funding are in pretty good shape to hit the market hard. But the come across as reckless.

Squirrel - JB has openly said he's not looking for fast growth, therefore securing an alternate funding line isn't important (just how much you believe of that is up to you).

LendMe, feels the most well considered and in a way simplest (Squirrel confused me with the idea of choosing an interest rate). Secured lending and a well productised package for borrowers to chose from.

I'll sign up with them shortly.

Cool Bear
17-12-2015, 02:43 PM
I just work out that because of early repayments, the fees charged by Harmoney works out to an equivalent 2.15% instead of 1.25%.

Some background:
Invested for about 6 months and now well over 1000 loans (minimal amounts each).

Say my total repayments received up to now - interest and capital (without early repayment) - is $X. The total fees I have paid if expressed as a percentage of that $X works out to be 2.15%.

As a note to the earlier posts on fees being less than 1.25% in total.
If you take your total fees and divide it by the total of "capital repayments" and interest, it will be less than 1.25%.

This is because "capital repayments" not only includes the genuine early repayments (where the 1.25% applies) but also those loans where the borrower changes his/her mind after getting it filled (we do not pay fees on these).

I posted the above on 10 November. I just decided to put in a formula into my spreadsheet to automatically estimate the impact of early repayment and it is now showing fees to be 2.65% (after 7 months invested) on the actual amount of interest and repayment (without early repayments). I sincerely hope that it will not go too high or the returns will be reduced drastically. At the moment, it is still okay.

Colgar
17-12-2015, 03:27 PM
I posted the above on 10 November. I just decided to put in a formula into my spreadsheet to automatically estimate the impact of early repayment and it is now showing fees to be 2.65% (after 7 months invested) on the actual amount of interest and repayment (without early repayments). I sincerely hope that it will not go too high or the returns will be reduced drastically. At the moment, it is still okay.

I wonder how many investors like yourself are paying attention to how early repayments are affecting their platform fees.

Is anyone else tracking like Cool Bear?

Saamee
18-12-2015, 12:37 AM
With 250 trades made now, mainly in B Grades - Harmoney should be returning approx. 15%.

However my returns appear to be jut a little over 11%!


7763

As a Harmoney investor I am starting to really "Feel Exposed".

It is the lack of immediate clarity, with my investments and not being able to see an actual rate of return...

I have spoken on a few occassions with Mark Bardi, especially about the lack of Montlhy Statements.

The analogy being like the Monthly statement you get from your Bank.... You can see exactly every depsosit, withdrawl and charge etc.

I certainly am not 'feeling the love' from Harmoney ( as in seriously being listened to, as an investor ) and have adopted the 'any Credit to my account' take out and feel relieved to have my Capital returned back...

Colgar
18-12-2015, 07:28 AM
With 250 trades made now, mainly in B Grades - Harmoney should be returning approx. 15%.

However my returns appear to be jut a little over 11%!


7763

As a Harmoney investor I am starting to really "Feel Exposed".

It is the lack of immediate clarity, with my investments and not being able to see an actual rate of return...

I have spoken on a few occassions with Mark Bardi, especially about the lack of Montlhy Statements.

The analogy being like the Monthly statement you get from your Bank.... You can see exactly every depsosit, withdrawl and charge etc.

I certainly am not 'feeling the love' from Harmoney ( as in seriously being listened to, as an investor ) and have adopted the 'any Credit to my account' take out and feel relieved to have my Capital returned back...

Sorry to hear that, but it confirms some of my suspicions.

Their beginning to feel like ambulance chasers

permutation
18-12-2015, 08:14 AM
Whats your current default rate on that many loans?
Investing for about 9 months, Loans invested 450+, in that time I have had 20% paid back, now have 350+ loans.
Loan numbers charged off currently 0.08% and arrears 4.07%.

I can't reinvest faster than the loans that are being repaid.

Halebop
18-12-2015, 08:34 AM
With 250 trades made now, mainly in B Grades - Harmoney should be returning approx. 15%.

However my returns appear to be jut a little over 11%!

As a Harmoney investor I am starting to really "Feel Exposed".

It is the lack of immediate clarity, with my investments and not being able to see an actual rate of return...

I have spoken on a few occassions with Mark Bardi, especially about the lack of Montlhy Statements.

The analogy being like the Monthly statement you get from your Bank.... You can see exactly every depsosit, withdrawl and charge etc.

I certainly am not 'feeling the love' from Harmoney ( as in seriously being listened to, as an investor ) and have adopted the 'any Credit to my account' take out and feel relieved to have my Capital returned back...

I agree on clarity aspect, it is too much work at present to determine performance and Harmoney need to work on this; their dashboard improved but needs more work and their data extracts are not particularly suitable for the more data savvy.

On the returns piece, 250 notes is not a big enough sample to replicate their advertised default performance and returns, notwithstanding the further potential impacts of re-writes.

I have 1,074 active notes invested over around 13 or 14 months and am significantly under the advertised default rate at present (5 Write-offs to date vs bias toward C, D & E loans). However I'm not cheering about it, I know my statistical spread (sample size and time series) is inadequate and process bias (lag on default reporting and understanding late payments) is impacting perception. My returns to date are above expectations but I'm not mentally banking them yet (nor is it simple calculating returns!)

I note other debates on lender vs borrower rates and volumes and platform features/design/user experience determining success. These are true in the short term. In the long term, underwriting quality and matching price to the underwriting process will determine success and these other aspects can become noise until the pretenders fall by the wayside.

Clearly I could offer "reasonable" 10% to 15% rates to terrible credit quality customers on an elegantly designed feature rich website and a clever marketing campaign - and still everyone goes broke despite early volume success.

Cool Bear
18-12-2015, 08:38 AM
With 250 trades made now, mainly in B Grades - Harmoney should be returning approx. 15%.

However my returns appear to be jut a little over 11%!


7763

As a Harmoney investor I am starting to really "Feel Exposed".

It is the lack of immediate clarity, with my investments and not being able to see an actual rate of return...

I have spoken on a few occassions with Mark Bardi, especially about the lack of Montlhy Statements.

The analogy being like the Monthly statement you get from your Bank.... You can see exactly every depsosit, withdrawl and charge etc.

I certainly am not 'feeling the love' from Harmoney ( as in seriously being listened to, as an investor ) and have adopted the 'any Credit to my account' take out and feel relieved to have my Capital returned back...
The difference could be due to tax deducted, timing difference and arrears (which is part interest and part principal).

WingingIt
20-12-2015, 11:50 AM
I assume a quick and easy way to work out whether service fees are tracking along at 1.25% is too add up Principal received and gross interest received * that by 1.25% and should be the amount of service fees paid. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I've got 8 paid off loans out of a total of 65, the loans were 1-8 months into their life. I hope re-writes or people fully paying off their loans early dont continute at this rate!

humvee
20-12-2015, 02:29 PM
I assume a quick and easy way to work out whether service fees are tracking along at 1.25% is too add up Principal received and gross interest received * that by 1.25% and should be the amount of service fees paid. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I've got 8 paid off loans out of a total of 65, the loans were 1-8 months into their life. I hope re-writes or people fully paying off their loans early dont continute at this rate!

12.3% thats right within the range im seeing, I suspect you will see that rate climb a bit as the loans age

My figures
Loans Older then 1 Month
9.25% Have been repaid already
Loans Older then 3 Months
14% Have Been repaid already
Loans Older then 6 Months
17% Have been Repaid Already

permutation
21-12-2015, 07:52 AM
I assume a quick and easy way to work out whether service fees are tracking along at 1.25% is too add up Principal received and gross interest received * that by 1.25% and should be the amount of service fees paid. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I've got 8 paid off loans out of a total of 65, the loans were 1-8 months into their life. I hope re-writes or people fully paying off their loans early dont continute at this rate!

The formula I use to see the exact amount of fees paid is =Fees/(gross interest+ principal) currently my figure is 1.2025%; I believe that if a loan is funded then not taken up by the borrower then a fee is not charged on capital repayment.

Currently I have had approx. 20% of loans repaid early, from 450+ loans issued. I think early repayment will continue as I have read in the media that it is a function of P2P loans through either encouragement by the platform or a percentage of people always needing to top up.
I guess the only people not refinancing are the ones that have borrowed a large amount to begin with.

Saamee
21-12-2015, 03:29 PM
Have just signed up with 'Lending Crowd' as an Investor. Very very impressed. Sign up was easy ( no rejections ) all approved within 30 minutes ( Driving License & Bank Account details provided ).

Their Dashboard just..... Makes Sense. Much info there that is missing from Harmoney.

I sent an initial 2K over from my ASB to Lending Crowd's ASB account, it was available for my use 1 hour later.

They only had 1 loan on offer 11.75% for 60 Months ( Secured by Cars ) which I made an investment in.

New to me today..... I am left with a very good feeling about Lending Crowd.

Harvey Specter
24-12-2015, 06:50 AM
My rar = 15.89%

Been in over a year so hoping that is a long term level. Rewrites are more recent so would be interesting to see how that impacts long term. Charge backs the big issue as I should be about 20%.

777
24-12-2015, 08:24 AM
Notice an upgrade to the dashboard this morning giving RAR

Mine is 16.81%

I have yet to have any final defaults(charged off principal)

Invested $40,000 in mainly $250 lots but some as $500.

Kees
24-12-2015, 09:54 AM
Rar of 12.71 for me on mainly $100 to 250 A & B loans.

humvee
24-12-2015, 10:10 AM
Good to see harmoney do respond to requests for more information in the dashboard

My Rar is 19.56%

The other portfolio i have access to details of is 14.06%

Both mostly D,E,F loans

PennyPicker
24-12-2015, 10:14 AM
Really good to see the level of detail in explaining what the figure reflects and how it's calculated.

My RAR is 16.23%.

Harvey Specter
24-12-2015, 01:39 PM
My Rar is 19.56%

The other portfolio i have access to details of is 14.06%

Both mostly D,E,F loansThats a big difference. Can yo attribute anything to the difference or just luck/unlucky?

Saamee
24-12-2015, 07:17 PM
As a relative 'Newbie Harmoney Inverstor' ( only 6 months ) the realization has jsut struck me that it's that time of year that Borrowers may well be faced with the dilema of A) Pay Harmoney the monthly $$'s owing vs B) Pay for Xmas...... and that 'B' may well win quite a few times!!! The outcome being I should expect a few loans to go AWOL over the next 4 weeks??? Is this other investor thoughts as well??

humvee
24-12-2015, 08:14 PM
Thats a big difference. Can yo attribute anything to the difference or just luck/unlucky?

portfolio1
much larger portfolio 100% selected by me
77687767

Portfolio2
Smaller Portfolio - but older average loan age. 50% picked by me 50% by some one else. but both using similar selection criteria to portfolio1
Random thought - does more 36 month loans = more rewrites = lower return?
hit quite hard with writeoff's for its size at one point I calculate that returns dropped to around 1% - but no new write offs for while now while other portfolio has
77697770

humvee
24-12-2015, 08:31 PM
As a relative 'Newbie Harmoney Inverstor' ( only 6 months ) the realization has jsut struck me that it's that time of year that Borrowers may well be faced with the dilema of A) Pay Harmoney the monthly $$'s owing vs B) Pay for Xmas...... and that 'B' may well win quite a few times!!! The outcome being I should expect a few loans to go AWOL over the next 4 weeks??? Is this other investor thoughts as well??

in short yes

Cool Bear
24-12-2015, 09:16 PM
wow you guys with above 15% RAR are doing well. I have about 1400 loans (about 5 months to 6 months invested) and well spread out. Changed my criteria as I went about 3 times. Now trying for a normal distribution curve. My RAV is 14.57%. According to my own spreadsheet it should be 16.4%. But that is whittled down mostly with the service fees for the early repayments. As mentioned in my earlier post, the service fee is now an equivalent of about 2.5% instead of 1.25%

I worked out the slow increase in equivalent fees from one month to another earlier when I was in the office and will post it here later.

I am slowing down committing more funds as I do not want to risk too much too soon - I think a clearer picture will emerge after at least 18 months of investing

humvee
24-12-2015, 11:16 PM
Just been looking through this page
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics

Some really good info there, it will take some time to go through it - but at least some of our requests for information have been answered

permutation
25-12-2015, 07:59 AM
My Rar is 12.47%
I have been investing for about 9 months now and I do my own 30-62 day moving average return after fees and tax, which at day 55 (nov30days+ dec25days) is 14.26%

My investment spread is broader than most and I am very strict in my selection of loans based on RvI (repayment ability versus borrower income)

I am happy with a more conservative return as I reckon it will be more resilient in the long term
7772

mlt322
27-12-2015, 10:48 AM
Just been looking through this page
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics

Some really good info there, it will take some time to go through it - but at least some of our requests for information have been answered

I'm new to Harmoney and prior to investing, did a lot of research to check out the viability and safety of p2p lending. I had several email discussions with Mark Bardi, at Harmoney, and got prompt, straight answers back which did ease any concerns I had.

I did ask for a number of stats on performance, write-offs, arrears, etc which he answered but are now being published for the world to see. Good work Harmoney!!

I have read this entire discussion from the start and can see that there were some issues early on but I think these have either been addressed or are in the process of being addressed.

With the number of other p2p companies available, all operating differently, there is plenty of choice for investors to pick one that meets their needs.

The one thing I would like to see change at Harmoney is the fees paid on re-writes. I'm sure they can find a balance that makes this fairer on investors and hopefully the negative feedback received will prompt them into addressing this.

It would be great to hear from other investors what their own investment strategies are so that we can all learn from those more experienced. Mine is fairly simple at this stage:

1. Not too worried whether it's 36 or 60 month. I'm in long term and there will be a number of re-writes expected no matter what the term.

2. Simple loan selection....give weddings, holidays, buying presents etc loans a miss.

3. Amount I'm prepared to loan each category is A=6 notes, B=5 notes, C=4 notes etc. But try sticking with C to E mainly.

So far, 157 loans, 2 arrears (paid now), and 2 paid off. Reinvest all interest and principal received.

Happy with it so far.

humvee
31-12-2015, 03:49 PM
Does anyone know how often the RAR(realised annual return) figures will be updated? I just Had 2 more loans written off today - Admittedly when I look back at them I cannot work out why I invested in one of them as it does not even come close to meeting my normal Criteria

mlt322
31-12-2015, 05:53 PM
I cannot work out why I invested in one of them as it does not even come close to meeting my normal Criteria

Hi Humvee, would you mind sharing your "normal criteria" for selecting a loan. I'm just trying to get an idea of how other investors choose their investments. Happy new year everyone :-)

Saamee
31-12-2015, 07:31 PM
Hi MLT,

Read your interest in loans selection so here is my penny worth.....

I look for > Length in steady Employment ( 2 years Min ) + Length of residential Tenure ( 2 years Min ) + plus Monhtly Earnings ( I look for a Harmoney Monthly repayment that is Max 10% of Borrowers Monthly Income.


I will not lend for Weddings, Holidays or Loans to Family Members... Does a Borrower ever lie with their Loan needs description? I guess, so but how can we tell?


I am most comfortable lending for Debt Consolidation and Business Expansion.


Note: Harmoney borrowers info does not tell you if Borrowers Monthly Income is after Tax and also what other Fixed Outgoings a Borrower may also have ( Mortgage, Car Loan etc ) .... That would be really good to know.....


Hope this assists..... Happy New Year everyone :)

humvee
31-12-2015, 10:21 PM
Hi Humvee, would you mind sharing your "normal criteria" for selecting a loan. I'm just trying to get an idea of how other investors choose their investments. Happy new year everyone :-)

Repayments not more then ~10% income.

No Excessively bad English or typing in description(small typos are OK)

Eg won't be lending on this current one "hi thanks for trust me to barrow online in you lending"

I also skip ones where description comes across as they think the loan(or worse just money) is their entitlement or right

Usually 3 or less enquiries, longer job and residence is better but not a requirement

Finite
01-01-2016, 09:38 AM
Hi,
I'm new here, so please be gentle!

Why does everybody think that they are better able to determine risk than Harmoney who are professionals in consumer finance.
Harmoney have access to far more borrower information than we do and with their expertise create a credit rating (with associated default rate). So why would we, with just a small subset of the borrowers details, be able to do better than Harmoney?
I just accept Harmoneys ratings.

But what I do consider is loan term - I only invest in 36 month loans as there is no secondary market to provide an exit path.
And I have also been stung by rewrites and so I only invest in loans that are at the top limit (ie. can't be increased further) or are rewrites (on the assumption that it won't happen again)

Harvey Specter
01-01-2016, 06:41 PM
Finite - I have wondered that also but my rational is Harmoney base their statistics on a large sample. On the basis I only invest in a very small subset of that, I don't want to be over investing in ones that I don't think are a good risk. Eg if you had 1m notes, it might be OK to have 10% in Holidays, but if you only have 10 notes, I would prefer not to more than 1 (which I may get due to random selection) and preferably none.

Same - I'm not a fan of business loans on the basis of they are borrowing from Harmoney, they are likely to be one of the new businesses that doesn't make it, and if they lose their business, they also lose their job.

Having said those points, while I start out picky, I prefer to be fully invested so may invest (hopefully underweight) in what I think are suboptimal loans (ie. Trusting Harmoney). After all, I have had as many B write offs as F write offs.

humvee
01-01-2016, 09:35 PM
Hi,
I'm new here, so please be gentle!

Why does everybody think that they are better able to determine risk than Harmoney who are professionals in consumer finance.
Harmoney have access to far more borrower information than we do and with their expertise create a credit rating (with associated default rate). So why would we, with just a small subset of the borrowers details, be able to do better than Harmoney?
I just accept Harmoneys ratings.

But what I do consider is loan term - I only invest in 36 month loans as there is no secondary market to provide an exit path.
And I have also been stung by rewrites and so I only invest in loans that are at the top limit (ie. can't be increased further) or are rewrites (on the assumption that it won't happen again)

I don't know but I suspect that 36 month loans might get more heavily hit with rewrites with people increasing borrowings and changing to 60 montloans so repayments don't increase.

Lewylewylewy
02-01-2016, 06:51 AM
Hi,
I'm new here, so please be gentle!

Why does everybody think that they are better able to determine risk than Harmoney who are professionals in consumer finance.
Harmoney have access to far more borrower information than we do and with their expertise create a credit rating (with associated default rate). So why would we, with just a small subset of the borrowers details, be able to do better than Harmoney?
I just accept Harmoneys ratings.

But what I do consider is loan term - I only invest in 36 month loans as there is no secondary market to provide an exit path.
And I have also been stung by rewrites and so I only invest in loans that are at the top limit (ie. can't be increased further) or are rewrites (on the assumption that it won't happen again)

Let's compare it to online dating... There are 5000 women online, I filter them down to 1000 in my area. I filter them again to remove the the fatties, ones with kids, smokers and ones my age. I'm left with 120. I filter them again by Height because I want a cutie, leaving 50 that the dating websites statistical analysis thinks are ideal for me.

The reality is that these 50 statistically fine women are on a dating website for the same reason I am.. Because nobody wants to date a buck toothed psychopath, who has an edipus complex, smells inexplicably of cabbage and worst of all can't spell!

My point is a very important one: we're dealing with humans. People can be tricky, dishonest, unreliable, mentally ill and just plain stupid. Also the computer system is only working of the numbers it sees and needs a human to do the final check, just like a real loan company does (that's why you can't order a loan within 5 minutes throughout a bank, for example).

I sometimes wonder about the validity of some of the data. For example, if it looks at your monthly income based on transactions incoming to a borrowers account, does it know the difference between a car that was sold last month and salary?

PS: I don't really smell like cabbage.

permutation
02-01-2016, 08:20 AM
I have read a number of times in the financial media regarding primary loans i.e.. housing loans; that a borrower having to pay more than 30% of their net income to service a mortgage could be putting themselves under financial stress.

I assume that many loans through Harmoney are additional to mortgage or rent payments.

How difficult over time would it be for a borrower to continue repaying a loan when in some bios I read, the "Repayment v Income ratio is 20-35%+? So total debt servicing could be as high as 55%+

I will never find out if some of these will default because I never invest in such loans.

Over the last 10 months with over 460 loans invested I have had 3 defaults in E, F grades only.
I have a graph of my investment spread in a previous post.

lche059
02-01-2016, 11:22 AM
hi, does anyone know how to cancel an in-funding order, if it's possible? thanks.

lche059
02-01-2016, 11:52 AM
Finite - I have wondered that also but my rational is Harmoney base their statistics on a large sample. On the basis I only invest in a very small subset of that, I don't want to be over investing in ones that I don't think are a good risk. Eg if you had 1m notes, it might be OK to have 10% in Holidays, but if you only have 10 notes, I would prefer not to more than 1 (which I may get due to random selection) and preferably none.

Same - I'm not a fan of business loans on the basis of they are borrowing from Harmoney, they are likely to be one of the new businesses that doesn't make it, and if they lose their business, they also lose their job.

Having said those points, while I start out picky, I prefer to be fully invested so may invest (hopefully underweight) in what I think are suboptimal loans (ie. Trusting Harmoney). After all, I have had as many B write offs as F write offs.
the problem is people might make up whatever reasons for loans. i don't know if and how Harmoney verify these reasons.
that's why i think it's probably pointless to scrutinise vague loan descriptions further.
as for business loans, i actually think business loans are safer, in my business anyway. say if i borrow 10k for stocks, i can turn it over in 6 months with 20% profit, that's 40% profit in a year. that loan makes a lot more money sense than someone borrowing for personal needs on wage or salary! there're many reason as to why a profitable business wouldn't want to borrow from a bank, e.g. higher rates. but the problem is again not enough info on the business is disclosed to us, maybe to harmoney, but not to us. so might as well go with harmoney's ratings.

permutation
02-01-2016, 03:26 PM
hi, does anyone know how to cancel an in-funding order, if it's possible? thanks.

I believe once you are in-funding you cannot cancel. The only way you might get a refund is when the borrower doesn't accept a fully funded loan.
But hey! in my experience with a rewrite rate of about 20% you'll soon get your money back and will be able to readjust your investment criteria.

lche059
02-01-2016, 03:55 PM
I believe once you are in-funding you cannot cancel. The only way you might get a refund is when the borrower doesn't accept a fully funded loan.
But hey! in my experience with a rewrite rate of about 20% you'll soon get your money back and will be able to readjust your investment criteria.

the loan in question is already fully funded but my $25 order is still stuck in in-funding, as shown both on my dashboard and under invest->order history! it's not available for withdrawal nor for investment. it must be a bug or something! not very good for a financial platform.
with regard to rewrite, 3-month wait period is total bs. a determined fraudster could totally exploit this and pay for 3 months and take double amount of loan and run. i would avoid investing in any rewrite unless it's A graded.

permutation
02-01-2016, 04:21 PM
the loan in question is already fully funded but my $25 order is still stuck in in-funding, as shown both on my dashboard and under invest->order history! it's not available for withdrawal nor for investment. it must be a bug or something! not very good for a financial platform.

I agree the platform seems to be lacking in a number of areas.

I have had this kind of thing happen as well, Iche059, but don't worry I have found that these things tend to resolve in a few days.

In the past when I have rung the call centre, which I believe is based in Fiji, is particularly not much help either, so I have given that up and just wait for a day or two.

Saamee
02-01-2016, 07:03 PM
7777

Today I invested in LAI-00052632 ( screen shot attached ) - The query being it was a C3 loan - standard C3 interest is 18.59%.

However this C3 loan had an interest rate attached to it of 20.82% ?? Why??

The only thing is that this loan was a 3 month old Re-Write...... Could the Platform Fee have been rolled up into the repayments and thus higher Interest rate to cover?? I was not aware that Harmoney could \ would do that??

I'm starting to consider looking out more for Re-Write loans..... as someone else recently suggested in this thread >> A Rewritten Loan is not likely to be rewritten again anytime soon, if the capital borrowed has just been Increased!!

7778

Saamee
02-01-2016, 10:05 PM
Well after a bit of digging around in the Borrowers side Q & A's of the Harmoney Website...

Harmoney have Increased the Borrowers Interest rates on the majority of C, D, E, & F grade loans...... Since when I do not know, maybe Jan 2016??

I am now using the lastest rtaes chart - ha ha ha attached for everyone else too.7779

permutation
02-01-2016, 10:17 PM
Thanks for that Saamee, I wonder why they have done that? could be a risk reward factor that they have re-evaluated.

humvee
02-01-2016, 10:19 PM
Well after a bit of digging around in the Borrowers side Q & A's of the Harmoney Website...

Harmoney have Increased the Borrowers Interest rates on all C, D, E, & F grade loans...... Since when I do not know, maybe Jan 2016??

I am now using the lastest rtaes chart - ha ha ha attached for everyone else too.7779

With a bit of luck that should slow rewrites for a bit

Saamee
02-01-2016, 10:27 PM
Thanks for that Saamee, I wonder why they have done that? could be a risk reward factor that they have re-evaluated.

Harmoney have adjusted their Borrower Fees recently ( putting the Borrower Fees down ) after the Com Com started looking into their Fee structures.

I wonder if the '% Rate Hikes' is to offset the loss on the Fees side??

A 10% rate hike does not look that big on an initial rate of 18.5% ( it's still 10% mind you! ) so may be they are slugging the more extreme borrowers... ?

permutation
02-01-2016, 10:37 PM
Just looking at the Harmoney menu 'Fee structures'. The platform fees for Borrowers is $375 and Top-ups $375. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it $300 and $250 for Top-ups before?

Saamee
02-01-2016, 10:46 PM
It was somewhere in the region of $650 before for initial loans - unsure about top ups.

Below news on Com Com and previous fee structure:>

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/70912502/harmoney-fees-scrutinised-by-consumer-watchdog

humvee
02-01-2016, 11:15 PM
7777

Today I invested in LAI-00052632 ( screen shot attached ) - The query being it was a C3 loan - standard C3 interest is 18.59%.

However this C3 loan had an interest rate attached to it of 20.82% ?? Why??

The only thing is that this loan was a 3 month old Re-Write...... Could the Platform Fee have been rolled up into the repayments and thus higher Interest rate to cover?? I was not aware that Harmoney could \ would do that??

I'm starting to consider looking out more for Re-Write loans..... as someone else recently suggested in this thread >> A Rewritten Loan is not likely to be rewritten again anytime soon, if the capital borrowed has just been Increased!!

7778

it looks like the new interests rates kicked in between the 23rd and 24th of dec

Cool Bear
03-01-2016, 02:17 PM
Thanks Saamee and Humvee for the interest rate updates.

Just checked my spreadsheet. Yes, the new rates kicked in on loans I invested in from 24th December.

Now I have to redo my spreadsheet to calculate all the repayments, actual yield etc etc. But not complaining as it does mean a much higher return overall. Based on my workings and the old interest rates, if one is to spread the notes evenly into all grades, the yield should be between 16.8 to 17.1% depending on the mix of 36 and 60 months and assuming Harmoney's default rates are correct. That, however, is based on no rewrites, which does whittle down the yield by one to two percentage point!

The new interest rates should raise the expected yield by at least one or two percentage points!!

mlt322
03-01-2016, 03:00 PM
I have been wondering why, with several negative threads, and the many questions and assumptions regarding how Harmoney operates, why someone from Harmoney hasn't responded to the forum in the same way that JB (John Bolton) of Squirrel Money does on the Squirrel discussion. Surely it would be in their best interest (and ours as investors) to have them answer these questions.

I asked Mark Bardi, from Harmoney, this and he said that they have been asked by Sharetrader not to. If this is the case, I'd be keen to know why the Sharetrader moderators are more than happy for one p2p lending company to respond on here as well as pumping their product at every opportunity but won't let another company respond.

Could we get some clarity on this please? I think that this is fair if this forum is to be open and transparent to all users.

TazzieDave
06-01-2016, 02:58 PM
Hi I'm a newbie to the forum, but I've been investing in Harmoney nearly a year now. Been frustrated with the inability to get reasonable statements off the dashboard, so I've come up with a work-around that might be of interest to others.

It's a little program that allows you too load in successive downloaded loans.csv files, and then just extracts and highlights the differences - see below. These can then be saved to a new csv filethat's hopefully more useful :).

If anyone wants a copy - I'm making it freeware - just PM or eMail me. As it's free, it's a case of all care, no responsibility - it seems to work OK for me....

7781

Cheers Dave

Saamee
07-01-2016, 10:41 AM
Can a seasoned member inform me how one goes about getting a new Thread Started? I would like to see a new Thread for 'Lending Crowd' however do not have authority to initiate. Thanx in advance.

777
07-01-2016, 10:48 AM
Can a seasoned member inform me how one goes about getting a new Thread Started? I would like to see a new Thread for 'Lending Crowd' however do not have authority to initiate. Thanx in advance.

Select Investment Strategies Forum. This lists all the threads. Scroll to bottom and there is a button to start a new thread on the left side.

humvee
07-01-2016, 11:05 AM
Can a seasoned member inform me how one goes about getting a new Thread Started? I would like to see a new Thread for 'Lending Crowd' however do not have authority to initiate. Thanx in advance.


There is already a lending crowd thread - just not many posts yet...

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?10456-LendingCROWD-NZ-P2P

Saamee
07-01-2016, 08:35 PM
777 - Many thanx for the tip....

Humvee - Cheers for that too. Guess I did not find it on the Search Function as I was searching with 2 x words and the Title you supplied is one long word! Bugger

humvee
08-01-2016, 05:27 AM
777 - Many thanx for the tip....

Humvee - Cheers for that too. Guess I did not find it on the Search Function as I was searching with 2 x words and the Title you supplied is one long word! Bugger

I think i wrote it exactly how the press release/ news article i was reading at time had written it. Case and all.

humvee
08-01-2016, 10:10 AM
There are alot of loans in the market place today - 41 currently

humvee
11-01-2016, 08:16 AM
Does any one know how often they are going to update the platform and Individual RAR (Realised Annual Return) FiguresRealised Annual Return

Harvey Specter
11-01-2016, 08:39 AM
Does any one know how often they are going to update the platform and Individual RAR (Realised Annual Return) FiguresRealised Annual Return

No but monthly would be good. I dont see a real need for real time. On that note, it would be good to be able to get monthly statistics/accounts. Would make it much easier to do monthly posting into accounting systems (direct feed to Xero would be even better!).

mjplost
11-01-2016, 11:20 AM
Does anyone else's "amount in arrears" figure on the reports page never match what you have when you add up the total arrears when you click into filter loans / arrears?

Mine never match, the figure on the reports page (top right) is always higher.

Also on some of the arrears when you click into them further it says :

AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$0.00

If this is $0.00, does anyone know why it is coming up as an arrear?

I realise I could email Harmoney about this but checking if it has happened to anyone else.

Soolaimon
11-01-2016, 11:40 AM
Does anyone else's "amount in arrears" figure on the reports page never match what you have when you add up the total arrears when you click into filter loans / arrears?

Mine never match, the figure on the reports page (top right) is always higher.

Also on some of the arrears when you click into them further it says :

AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$0.00

If this is $0.00, does anyone know why it is coming up as an arrear?

I realise I could email Harmoney about this but checking if it has happened to anyone else.
I have had this situation for many months and it is quite frustrating, also, when you bring up the individual arrears loans they don't always make sence. Well to me anyway.

Soolaimon
11-01-2016, 11:40 AM
Does anyone else's "amount in arrears" figure on the reports page never match what you have when you add up the total arrears when you click into filter loans / arrears?

Mine never match, the figure on the reports page (top right) is always higher.

Also on some of the arrears when you click into them further it says :

AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$0.00

If this is $0.00, does anyone know why it is coming up as an arrear?

I realise I could email Harmoney about this but checking if it has happened to anyone else.
I have had this situation for many months and it is quite frustrating, also, when you bring up the individual arrears loans they don't always make sence. Well to me anyway.

Saamee
11-01-2016, 12:18 PM
It quite possibly coulld be the delay between when Harmoney receive the Borrowers funds in, and the clearance time ( 3 to 4 days? ) before those funds are Credited to your Investor account.

Soolaimon
11-01-2016, 12:30 PM
It quite possibly coulld be the delay between when Harmoney receive the Borrowers funds in, and the clearance time ( 3 to 4 days? ) before those funds are Credited to your Investor account.

Not the case as far as I am concerned Saamee, one instance being a loan in arrears for 3 months without payment and yet amount in arrears is 0. Some months ago I had 3 loans written off and I noticed that the amount in arrears on those loans stayed in my arrears total. They are probably still there??? Who knows, there is no way of finding out as far as I can see. This part of their website is pretty hopeless in my opinion.

TazzieDave
12-01-2016, 11:11 AM
Matches my experience too. I've also realised the total in arrears includes arrears from written off loans. I don't find that at all useful.


Does anyone else's "amount in arrears" figure on the reports page never match what you have when you add up the total arrears when you click into filter loans / arrears?

Mine never match, the figure on the reports page (top right) is always higher.

Also on some of the arrears when you click into them further it says :

AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$0.00

If this is $0.00, does anyone know why it is coming up as an arrear?

I realise I could email Harmoney about this but checking if it has happened to anyone else.

Finite
12-01-2016, 12:14 PM
Does anyone else's "amount in arrears" figure on the reports page never match what you have when you add up the total arrears when you click into filter loans / arrears?


AMOUNT IN ARREARS:$0.00

If this is $0.00, does anyone know why it is coming up as an arrear?

I realise I could email Harmoney about this but checking if it has happened to anyone else.

I emailed Harmoney about this.
The answer was "the arrears is less than 1 cent" not very clever IT system!

Baa_Baa
12-01-2016, 02:36 PM
Might see a few changes now that the founder (and largest shareholder) has returned to the board. http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/harmoney-board-reshuffle-sees-chairman-campbell-go-founder-roberts-return-b-183526?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NBR%2520Last%2520Call%2520%2520-%2520Holiday%2520Review%2520Edition%2520

Harvey Specter
12-01-2016, 03:15 PM
Might see a few changes now that the founder (and largest shareholder) has returned to the board. http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/harmoney-board-reshuffle-sees-chairman-campbell-go-founder-roberts-return-b-183526?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NBR%2520Last%2520Call%2520%2520-%2520Holiday%2520Review%2520Edition%2520A bit weird he ever left it, especially since I think he was still involved day to day. You would assume TradeMe are looking after their investment (and Heartland even though they dont have Board Rep)

Baa_Baa
12-01-2016, 07:42 PM
A bit weird he ever left it, especially since I think he was still involved day to day. You would assume TradeMe are looking after their investment (and Heartland even though they dont have Board Rep)

I agree it was odd that he left. Maybe the recent conversation was along the lines of ... I'm coming back onto the board, all agree, or shall we do this the hard way? Lol. With about 5x Heartlands investment and over 3x Trademe's investment, I think this is a good move for the founder to re-take the reigns; stabilise the platform policies; address contrary investor feedback; ensure performance of the company and growth. Those will be necessary to cement the longer term footprint in what is rapidly becoming a more crowded market.

nztyke
13-01-2016, 04:19 PM
I agree it was odd that he left. Maybe the recent conversation was along the lines of ... I'm coming back onto the board, all agree, or shall we do this the hard way? Lol. With about 5x Heartlands investment and over 3x Trademe's investment, I think this is a good move for the founder to re-take the reigns; stabilise the platform policies; address contrary investor feedback; ensure performance of the company and growth. Those will be necessary to cement the longer term footprint in what is rapidly becoming a more crowded market.

Neil Roberts was and still is the CEO, all the operational issues you refer to have always been his responsibility. The Board appointment relates more to the governance aspects.

Saamee
15-01-2016, 11:34 PM
Are any other investors also witnessing the anticipated escalation in Xmas \ New Year arrears yet?

Just today ( Fri ) my accounts Arrears doubled from $55 to $110 outstanding in arrears.

The week just gone was the 1st full 5 day week without any Public Holidays.... So no exuses for delayed bank transfers - only borrowers with no money left in their bank accounts to honour their agreements to Harmoney ( and of course us Investors!! )

humvee
16-01-2016, 08:04 AM
Are any other investors also witnessing the anticipated escalation in Xmas \ New Year arrears yet?

Just today ( Fri ) my accounts Arrears doubled from $55 to $110 outstanding in arrears.

The week just gone was the 1st full 5 day week without any Public Holidays.... So no exuses for delayed bank transfers - only borrowers with no money left in their bank accounts to honour their agreements to Harmoney ( and of course us Investors!! )

Mine is a little lower now then it was at some points over xmas new year. But higher then it was before Xmas.

humvee
16-01-2016, 08:23 AM
The rewrites are getting earlier 1 Month !?!?!

7802

Harvey Specter
16-01-2016, 09:12 AM
The rewrites are getting earlier 1 Month !?!?!

7802
That's taking the piss a bit.

permutation
16-01-2016, 09:12 AM
I reckon that the RAR should be updated daily.
It's all computerised; once you have a formula it should be updating real-time along with account balances etc.
Imagine if the NZX50 had all the share prices updating daily but they only published the index once a month.. Ridiculous:ohmy:

Bjauck
16-01-2016, 10:50 AM
Are any other investors also witnessing the anticipated escalation in Xmas \ New Year arrears yet?

Just today ( Fri ) my accounts Arrears doubled from $55 to $110 outstanding in arrears.

The week just gone was the 1st full 5 day week without any Public Holidays.... So no exuses for delayed bank transfers - only borrowers with no money left in their bank accounts to honour their agreements to Harmoney ( and of course us Investors!! )

Just to nit-pick, presumably the investors only have a contractual obligation with Harmoney... and Harmoney credits the investor according to the contract it has with the investor.

The Grade of loan you invest in my determine your level of Christmas period arrears...do you invest in low grade loans?

Saamee
16-01-2016, 01:50 PM
The rewrites are getting earlier 1 Month !?!?!

7802

Hi Humvee,

Interesting data presented on that loan, the Harmoney monthly repayment the person is looking to make is 20% of their monthly income. That alone woudl stop me investing!. I wonder how long before their next rewrite? The cynic in me may ask 'Does Harmoney get the borrower to quickly sign up, at the same time as saying. don't worry we will upgrade your loan immediatley after it is finalized".....

Saamee
16-01-2016, 01:53 PM
Just to nit-pick, presumably the investors only have a contractual obligation with Harmoney... and Harmoney credits the investor according to the contract it has with the investor.

The Grade of loan you invest in my determine your level of Christmas period arrears...do you invest in low grade loans?

Hi BJ,

Predominently B Grade's...... Persoanlly I choose to sacrifice a little less interest for hopefully a little better reliability of investor! Of course this does not always pay dividends ( or my Harmoney capital & interest back!! )

mlt322
16-01-2016, 07:13 PM
a little less interest for hopefully a little better reliability of investor! Of course this does not always pay dividends ( or my Harmoney capital & interest back!!

I've got 2 arrears and both are B rated. So much for more risk with the lower grades eh lol

Bjauck
17-01-2016, 10:45 AM
... Persoanlly I choose to sacrifice a little less interest for hopefully a little better reliability of investor! Of course this does not always pay dividends ( or my Harmoney capital & interest back!! )

I've got 2 arrears and both are B rated. So much for more risk with the lower grades eh lol At least they are not charge-offs atm!

I see on https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics that Harmoney are reporting that actual defaults for every grade of loan are less than those it was forecasting.

Harvey Specter
17-01-2016, 12:40 PM
I see on https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics that Harmoney are reporting that actual defaults for every grade of loan are less than those it was forecasting.yet didn't they just increase the interest rates?

I think they have moved people into lower (better) grades. Things like income cover and years in job seem to have worsed across the grades. Eg. might previously have been a E grade loan but now a D grade.

humvee
18-01-2016, 10:25 AM
I reckon that the RAR should be updated daily. It's all computerised; once you have a formula it should be updating real-time along with account balances etc.Imagine if the NZX50 had all the share prices updating daily but they only published the index once a month.. Ridiculous:ohmy:I contacted harmoney about this about a week ago - they said it is going to be updated monthly - the reason given was "At the moment, Realised Annual Return (RAR) updates at midnight once a month. It's still a relatively new figure, so were tracking it's progress closely. We may start updating it more frequently if our investors would prefer, although we don't want to unnecessarily create short term volatility."I replayed that I would understand why they did not want to up date it to often especially with bank clearance times etc - But I could not see any reason why they could not update it at least weekly say on a Wednesday to include everything up until the end of the previous Sunday.

humvee
18-01-2016, 10:29 AM
I contacted harmoney about this about a week ago - they said it is going to be updated monthly - the reason given was "At the moment, Realised Annual Return (RAR) updates at midnight once a month. It's still a relatively new figure, so were tracking it's progress closely. We may start updating it more frequently if our investors would prefer, although we don't want to unnecessarily create short term volatility."I replayed that I would understand why they did not want to up date it to often especially with bank clearance times etc - But I could not see any reason why they could not update it at least weekly say on a Wednesday to include everything up until the end of the previous Sunday.


While I might not agree with some things about harmoney one thing I will say is they(usually Mark Bardi) have usually replayed to my emails quite quickly. The replys also feel like replys to my email and dont feel like canned responses.

mlt322
18-01-2016, 08:43 PM
While I might not agree with some things about harmoney one thing I will say is they(usually Mark Bardi) have usually replayed to my emails quite quickly. The replys also feel like replys to my email and dont feel like canned responses.

Totally agree. I find them (Mark) Very responsive.

nztyke
19-01-2016, 06:23 PM
I contacted harmoney about this about a week ago - they said it is going to be updated monthly - the reason given was "At the moment, Realised Annual Return (RAR) updates at midnight once a month. It's still a relatively new figure, so were tracking it's progress closely. We may start updating it more frequently if our investors would prefer, although we don't want to unnecessarily create short term volatility."I replayed that I would understand why they did not want to up date it to often especially with bank clearance times etc - But I could not see any reason why they could not update it at least weekly say on a Wednesday to include everything up until the end of the previous Sunday.
Monthly updates sound reasonable to me. Why would you want it updated daily?

permutation
19-01-2016, 09:10 PM
Monthly updates sound reasonable to me. Why would you want it updated daily?

Because I'm not interested in out of date information.

They used to update the investor return on the old website continually as investments were made and repayments were credited. They also had interactive pie-charts with all the subgrades on them. The new so called improved website was introduced and these features had vanished.

I did send an enquiry email about it at the time and am still waiting for a response.

I personally would like to know exactly what % amount to 2 decimal places I have invested in each subgrade just like I would like to see the latest RAR updated daily.

mjplost
20-01-2016, 07:20 AM
They used to update the investor return on the old website continually as investments were made and repayments were credited. They also had interactive pie-charts with all the subgrades on them. The new so called improved website was introduced and these features had vanished.


I found the pie graph on the old site quite hard to read so I don't mind that its gone. It wasn't organised properly Each to their own I guess!

winner69
20-01-2016, 08:04 AM
Interest.co.nz has this article

Is peer-to-peer lender Harmoney facing growing pains, or is something more serious going on?
http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/79549/peer-peer-lender-harmoney-facing-growing-pains-or-something-more-serious-going

Bugger - you have to be a subscriber to read it

I can second guess the gist of what Gareth ison about

Harvey Specter
20-01-2016, 08:13 AM
I found the pie graph on the old site quite hard to read so I don't mind that its gone. It wasn't organised properly Each to their own I guess!Agree. A simple change to grouping all the A, b, c etc together would have helped but they arranged each sub level randomly which made it hard to interprete.

Harvey Specter
20-01-2016, 08:14 AM
Interest.co.nz has this article

Is peer-to-peer lender Harmoney facing growing pains, or is something more serious going on?
http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/79549/peer-peer-lender-harmoney-facing-growing-pains-or-something-more-serious-going

Bugger - you have to be a subscriber to read it

I can second guess the gist of what Gareth is on aboutWell we know about the director changes (discussed above) so will be interesting to see if they have any more market rumour than that to go on.

Finite
20-01-2016, 10:26 AM
Does anybody know if the charts that show our loan grades and loan terms distribution are for actual outstanding capital or are they just for loans issued (which may or may not have been repaid)

permutation
20-01-2016, 10:40 AM
Does anybody know if the charts that show our loan grades and loan terms distribution are for actual outstanding capital or are they just for loans issued (which may or may not have been repaid)

Calculations from my own spreadsheet show that the loan grade and loan term distributions are for the current outstanding loans.
But in the "Reports-Loan" data section it shows you the Total number of loans you have ever invested in; you can then use their filters to work it out for yourself.

mjplost
22-01-2016, 10:09 AM
I am starting to see a lot of my arrears being paid up to date (or close to) this month. Anyone else seeing this? Guessing Christmas bills have all been paid.

Soolaimon
22-01-2016, 10:44 AM
I am starting to see a lot of my arrears being paid up to date (or close to) this month. Anyone else seeing this? Guessing Christmas bills have all been paid.

My arrears have been fairly steady for the last week or so but have not noticed any increase in the number paid up to date.

Jinx
22-01-2016, 01:12 PM
After reading the majority of this thread as well as general research into Harmoney, seriously considering investing.
Wondering about the withdrawing money process, are there any fees involved with this? How do Harmoney return the cash to you? Bank transfer, credit card ect.

Thanks in advance!

humvee
22-01-2016, 01:25 PM
I am starting to see a lot of my arrears being paid up to date (or close to) this month. Anyone else seeing this? Guessing Christmas bills have all been paid.

Have you checked your charged off figure has not risen - My arrears has dropped - but I had 6 loans written off in 2 days. (prior to this I had only had 8 loans written off in over a year)

Soolaimon
22-01-2016, 02:08 PM
After reading the majority of this thread as well as general research into Harmoney, seriously considering investing.
Wondering about the withdrawing money process, are there any fees involved with this? How do Harmoney return the cash to you? Bank transfer, credit card ect.

Thanks in advance!

I tested Harmoney re withdrawals a year or more ago. They paid into my bank account the next day, no fees, no problem.

mjplost
22-01-2016, 02:40 PM
Have you checked your charged off figure has not risen - My arrears has dropped - but I had 6 loans written off in 2 days. (prior to this I had only has 8 loans written off in only a year

Yep certain, I havent had any writeoffs yet.

permutation
22-01-2016, 03:01 PM
After reading the majority of this thread as well as general research into Harmoney, seriously considering investing.
Wondering about the withdrawing money process, are there any fees involved with this? How do Harmoney return the cash to you? Bank transfer, credit card ect.

Thanks in advance!

I make withdrawals regularly as income. They are paid into my nominated bank account. They get processed in real-time, you can see your balance change. They also send an immediate email of confirmation.

I usually receive it that evening but I guess it depends on your bank.

What I don't understand, why in the "funds" section of their website they post the withdrawls as uncleared for at least 3 days when you can only withdraw funds that are showing as cash in your balances. :confused:

Cool Bear
22-01-2016, 05:15 PM
Have you checked your charged off figure has not risen - My arrears has dropped - but I had 6 loans written off in 2 days. (prior to this I had only has 8 loans written off in only a year

They must have written of a lot of loans on Wednesday 20th. I had 4 loans written off the last 6 months and 4 loans written off on Wednesday.

humvee
22-01-2016, 09:36 PM
Look at the extra employment information this site is showing that is not shown on the official harmoney dashboard
http://www.mortgagerates.co.nz/p2p-loans.html

TazzieDave
23-01-2016, 10:29 AM
Look at the extra employment information this site is showing that is not shown on the official harmoney dashboard
http://www.mortgagerates.co.nz/p2p-loans.html

Good find humvee. I've subscribed to the RSS feed http://www.mortgagerates.co.nz/feeds/peer-to-peer-lending.xml - I'm hoping it's real time.

Puggy
24-01-2016, 07:41 PM
They must have written of a lot of loans on Wednesday 20th. I had 4 loans written off the last 6 months and 4 loans written off on Wednesday.

Maybe I'm an extreme case, but my RAR with Harmoney is currently -83.06%. Put in $500 initially just to test the water, put $100 each into a D1, E2, 2xE3, and an E4. One E3 was written off with no payments at all, one E3 was paid off as a rewrite, and the E2 and E4 were written off after only around $10 each paid. At the moment only the D1 is rolling along, but I don't hold out much hope for that one.

Harmoney at the moment is giving me the same feeling I get when playing blackjack at the casino and the dealer keeps hitting 21... The odds are what they are, but I'm not putting any more money into it.

winner69
24-01-2016, 08:02 PM
Maybe I'm an extreme case, but my RAR with Harmoney is currently -83.06%. Put in $500 initially just to test the water, put $100 each into a D1, E2, 2xE3, and an E4. One E3 was written off with no payments at all, one E3 was paid off as a rewrite, and the E2 and E4 were written off after only around $10 each paid. At the moment only the D1 is rolling along, but I don't hold out much hope for that one.

Harmoney at the moment is giving me the same feeling I get when playing blackjack at the casino and the dealer keeps hitting 21... The odds are what they are, but I'm not putting any more money into it.

Not good mate is it

I hope Heartland are doing better than this with the millions they have put through the Harmoney platform

Halebop
24-01-2016, 10:56 PM
Maybe I'm an extreme case, but my RAR with Harmoney is currently -83.06%.

According to the most recent RAR distribution on the Harmoney Statistics page, your results are an extreme case - the bottom most dot on their graph!

As I was investigating Harmoney, my first $12,000 was invested on the basis of $25 per loan, in order to give me a chance of replicating something like their expected return distribution. With just 5 loans, performance comes down to luck and unfortunately you've had the bad rather than good kind.

Like others, have experienced a bump in write-offs in the last few days although still within an acceptable and expected tolerance. Suspect Harmoney still have some back-office issues, this is the 2nd "batch" of write-offs I've experienced. I hope they smooth this process out to provide a better understanding of performance.

7849

Harvey Specter
25-01-2016, 08:12 AM
RAR was updated on 22 or 23rd from the looks of it after the last round of write-offs. Mine has dipped below 15% which is disappointed as per their statistics, it should be up nearer 20% so my writeoffs seem to be impacting heavier than expected. Though not nearly as bad as Puggy - proof that diversification does pay. My return suggests i am invested in B loans (per Harmoney statistics) but I am predominately in D,E and F's. I might be a bit confussed with this though as I think the default rate is an annual thing so to the extent it defaults in the first year, your predicted return isn't as simple as interest rate less estimated default rate???

I would ultimately like to see it drift back up above 15%.

777
25-01-2016, 08:21 AM
I read somewhere over the weekend that the 1.25% charge is soon to increase.

humvee
25-01-2016, 11:11 AM
Im scratching my head a little as to how to explain the difference in the FAR vs the RAR figures -

My Current FAR figure(from old dashboard) is 25.80% My RAR is 18.35% Now I realize that we are talking Forcast VS actual Return but given that harmoney say

"This chart illustrates that the loss rates actually being experienced are significantly lower than the loss rates Harmoney forecasted prior to commencing lending in 2014. This is in part due to the conservative manner in which we originally forecasted and also due in part to improvements in technology and access to data that we have been able to apply in our credit decisioning processes."

This should not be the reason for the lower actual return, Now Rewrites is going to explain some of the difference, but not all of it, Now maybe I have done worse then average - but looking at https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Performance-Graphs/Jan16-Update/Individual-RAR.png It would appear that 18.35% is in the middle to upper range of returns for portfolios the age of mine ~ 1 year.
Infact it would appear very few people at all are getting a RAR close to my FAR of 25.80%

Dont get me wrong 18.35% is a good return, Im just a little puzzled how defaults can be so much better then forcasted (and as allowed for in the FAR) and yet it seems that everyones RAR is way below their FAR - If defaults are lower then forecast in general the RAR should be higher then the FAR


You can still see the FAR figures here

https://app.harmoney.com/investor/dashboard/summary#/performance

If anyone at all does have a RAR that is equal or greater then their FAR I would be very interested to know

permutation
25-01-2016, 11:18 AM
Are the RAR figures published including tax?

permutation
25-01-2016, 11:52 AM
I calculate my own 30-62 day moving average from the net interest posted by Harmoney I receive each day i.e.(less the fee and less my personal tax rate), but I add the Charged Off amount $value to the principal, as this returns 0% interest and reduces the Rar.

I also don't include any loans from the outstanding principal invested that are less than 30 days old, this slightly increases my Rar until those loans start generating income.

I have had more than 450 loans 17%A, 30%B, 25%C and the rest D,E 22% and 6%F. My own figure shows about 15% net, this is what I expect. Been investing for 1 year and have had 0.65% number of loans default to date.

Puggy
25-01-2016, 07:01 PM
According to the most recent RAR distribution on the Harmoney Statistics page, your results are an extreme case - the bottom most dot on their graph!

7849

Didn't realise I was was famous! It's a little pixellated, but I'd guess I'm the lower of those two dots at the bottom. My mother always said I was special, but who knew that one day I'd be an outlier!

Cool Bear
25-01-2016, 07:53 PM
Didn't realise I was was famous! It's a little pixellated, but I'd guess I'm the lower of those two dots at the bottom. My mother always said I was special, but who knew that one day I'd be an outlier!
I was wondering the other day who are the two dots at the bottom. Now I know one. Looking at the scale, I think your -83.06 would be the second one from the bottom. So you have been in for about 290 days or 9.5 to 10 months. I did thought having a result like yours will be the result of just a handful of loans.

I have over 1500 loans at the moment with about 130+ already repaid.

Cool Bear
25-01-2016, 07:54 PM
Are the RAR figures published including tax?
The RAR is before taking your tax into account. And don't forget your tax is on the gross interest! So your after tax RAR will be much lower.

Cool Bear
25-01-2016, 08:00 PM
Im scratching my head a little as to how to explain the difference in the FAR vs the RAR figures -

My Current FAR figure(from old dashboard) is 25.80% My RAR is 18.35% Now I realize that we are talking Forcast VS actual Return but given that harmoney say

"This chart illustrates that the loss rates actually being experienced are significantly lower than the loss rates Harmoney forecasted prior to commencing lending in 2014. This is in part due to the conservative manner in which we originally forecasted and also due in part to improvements in technology and access to data that we have been able to apply in our credit decisioning processes."

This should not be the reason for the lower actual return, Now Rewrites is going to explain some of the difference, but not all of it, Now maybe I have done worse then average - but looking at https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Performance-Graphs/Jan16-Update/Individual-RAR.png It would appear that 18.35% is in the middle to upper range of returns for portfolios the age of mine ~ 1 year.
Infact it would appear very few people at all are getting a RAR close to my FAR of 25.80%

Dont get me wrong 18.35% is a good return, Im just a little puzzled how defaults can be so much better then forcasted (and as allowed for in the FAR) and yet it seems that everyones RAR is way below their FAR - If defaults are lower then forecast in general the RAR should be higher then the FAR


You can still see the FAR figures here

https://app.harmoney.com/investor/dashboard/summary#/performance

If anyone at all does have a RAR that is equal or greater then their FAR I would be very interested to know

Hi Humvee, my own calculations show 16.64 but the RAR calculated by Harmoney is 14.94. The difference is timing.

When we calculate our returns we are calculating earning that interest from day 1. Harmoney only takes in the interest when we receive it. So, there is a lag as the repayment cycle is either weekly or monthly, so the RAR is lagging by that. Add to that the arrears. Also the one or two days in between when you invest and when the loan goes "live"

Oh and also the increase in fees due to rewrites. See next post

Cool Bear
26-01-2016, 09:03 AM
As mentioned in an earlier post, I am now tracking the effective service fees as a result of rewrites. Due to rewrites, the fees had effectively increased from 1.25% to 2.60% (in the 7 months I have invested) although the increase is now tapering off. Hopefully it will stay below 3%. See chart below - all figures as at the beginning of the month.
7852

Finite
26-01-2016, 09:27 AM
Hi,
Is there someone out there who really knows the position regarding deducting defaults and fees against income for income tax purposes.
Harmoney does not do it so they must be under instructions from the IRD not to do so.( I guess that is because the IRD believe that they are not valid deductions).
What does one have to do to been seen by the IRD as being "allowed" to deduct these fees/losses?
Harmoney have told me that they will provide end of year statements with these values, if they are requested by the investor.
Thanks in advance.

Bjauck
26-01-2016, 12:45 PM
Hi,
Is there someone out there who really knows the position regarding deducting defaults and fees against income for income tax purposes.
Harmoney does not do it so they must be under instructions from the IRD not to do so.( I guess that is because the IRD believe that they are not valid deductions).
What does one have to do to been seen by the IRD as being "allowed" to deduct these fees/losses?
Harmoney have told me that they will provide end of year statements with these values, if they are requested by the investor.
Thanks in advance.

This has been discussed on this thread several times before. Last time I emailed Harmoney about deductions, they said that they will still awaiting a ruling from the IRD. See my post on 25/11/15 at http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?10065-Harmoney&p=598730&viewfull=1#post598730 .

It may be time for another request to Harmoney for clarity on what amounts if any are allowed (for individual taxpayers) as a deduction for tax purposes.

777
26-01-2016, 02:36 PM
It really is quite simple. The write offs are a straight non deductible capital loss. Simply a bad investment. Live with it. The 1.25% charge against interest and repayments is a deductible expense. You just have to ask Harmony what that figure is for your tax year. They should provide it as a norm but they didn't last year.

WingingIt
26-01-2016, 06:51 PM
Any one have an idea on the kind of fee's people are charged for getting behind? One 'payment' since April. 7853

Bjauck
26-01-2016, 07:14 PM
It really is quite simple. The write offs are a straight non deductible capital loss. Simply a bad investment. Live with it. The 1.25% charge against interest and repayments is a deductible expense. You just have to ask Harmony what that figure is for your tax year. They should provide it as a norm but they didn't last year. Until Harmoney says otherwise, I agree with you. However there could be a possibility that since the typical individual invests in perhaps hundreds of "notes" each of which is ascribed by Harmoney a default risk percentage, then the "charge-offs" are an "anticipated cost" of the individuals investment in Harmoney notes (in the same way as service charges) and not an unanticipated capital loss. I imagine that is why Harmoney is seeking (so they have said) a ruling from the IRD.

Harvey Specter
26-01-2016, 07:14 PM
Any one have an idea on the kind of fee's people are charged for getting behind? One 'payment' since April. 7853i don't think they charge anything anymore, unless it just included in the interest figure.

Harvey Specter
26-01-2016, 07:16 PM
Until Harmoney says otherwise, I agree with you. However there could be a possibility that since the typical individual invests in perhaps hundreds of "notes" each of which is ascribed by Harmoney a default risk percentage, then the "charge-offs" are an "anticipated cost" of the individuals investment in Harmoney notes (in the same way as service charges) and not an unanticipated capital loss. I imagine that is why Harmoney is seeking (so they have said) a ruling from the IRD.need to be in the business of investing which most individuals wouldn't be. If you invest through an investment co, then it is arguable.

Saamee
26-01-2016, 08:34 PM
Did any body else notice that their RAR rate changed over night on Monday? Mine edged down 0.5%...

Finite
27-01-2016, 08:23 AM
need to be in the business of investing which most individuals wouldn't be. If you invest through an investment co, then it is arguable.

This seems to be the essence of it.
How does one prove to the IRD that you are in the business of investing.
I'm in business doing many things (farming, tourism etc) - can't I just add investing to the list - how about "Money Lending" as a business description?

mjplost
27-01-2016, 08:26 AM
Is there any way to clean up fully paid loans off the loans sheet? Or do they disappear after a set period of time?

Harvey Specter
27-01-2016, 08:32 AM
This seems to be the essence of it.
How does one prove to the IRD that you are in the business of investing.
I'm in business doing many things (farming, tourism etc) - can't I just add investing to the list - how about "Money Lending" as a business description?I use a company that only does investing. Mainly shares but I dont see the need for it to be a specialist loan investing company.

I assume you use different entities for the farming and tourism or just all bundled into one?

Finite
27-01-2016, 09:00 AM
I assume you use different entities for the farming and tourism or just all bundled into one?

No, one entity - a partnership with my spouse.

Bjauck
27-01-2016, 09:12 AM
need to be in the business of investing which most individuals wouldn't be. If you invest through an investment co, then it is arguable. It needs a decision on whether or not the service charges and charge-offs are deductible for individuals and whether they are definitely deductible for investment businesses. I think that is why Harmoney needs to press the IRD to get a ruling. I think an argument could be made that charge-offs are an inevitable cost of earning the taxable income from the Harmoney notes whether you are an individual portfolio investor or not. Professional advice is necessary.

777
27-01-2016, 09:53 AM
It needs a decision on whether or not the service charges and charge-offs are deductible for individuals and whether they are definitely deductible for investment businesses. I think that is why Harmoney needs to press the IRD to get a ruling. I think an argument could be made that charge-offs are an inevitable cost of earning the taxable income from the Harmoney notes whether you are an individual portfolio investor or not. Professional advice is necessary.

Tax is a personal responsibility Not Harmoney's. Why do you expect them to do your work? The service charge IS an expense against earning income, therefore deductible. The charge-offs are capital losses.

Finite
27-01-2016, 10:13 AM
Tax is a personal responsibility Not Harmoney's. Why do you expect them to do your work? The service charge IS an expense against earning income, therefore deductible. The charge-offs are capital losses.

If this is so (and you seem very convinced that it is) then why does Harmoney not allow for this in their tax witholdings?
There must be a reason for it

Bjauck
27-01-2016, 10:15 AM
Tax is a personal responsibility Not Harmoney's. Why do you expect them to do your work? The service charge IS an expense against earning income, therefore deductible. The charge-offs are capital losses. NZ Income Tax can act as a capital gains tax and sometimes simply a capital tax. With financial arrangements, NZ income tax can be applied to what many would understand to be capital profit/loss .

Harmoney is already seeking a ruling from the IRD. Companies often seek rulings from the IRD on tax implications, to their shareholders or investors, of proposed actions or payments. It saves their investors and their expensive tax accountants having to duplicate research into the tax consequences. I am surprised that Harmoney have not already obtained such a ruling on service charges and charge-offs for the various types of investors.

Harvey Specter
27-01-2016, 01:51 PM
Tax is a personal responsibility Not Harmoney's. Why do you expect them to do your work? The service charge IS an expense against earning income, therefore deductible. The charge-offs are capital losses.Agree.


Harmoney is already seeking a ruling from the IRD. Companies often seek rulings from the IRD on tax implications, to their shareholders or investors, of proposed actions or payments. It saves their investors and their expensive tax accountants having to duplicate research into the tax consequences. I am surprised that Harmoney have not already obtained such a ruling on service charges and charge-offs for the various types of investors.I dont think they will be able to get a ruling from IRD as the outcome is fact specific, not a matter of interpretation which is all a ruling can be on. Per my comments above, I believe my situations allows it but others investing directly doesn't. IRD will only be able to issue a ruling saying interest is taxable, fees are deductible but charge-offs depend on the situation of the investor. Which isn't very useful. I would be surprised if Harmoney even tried as it would be a great way to waste $50k+ on fees.

TazzieDave
01-02-2016, 11:08 AM
Just had some interesting account activity- LAI-00031926 was credited on 27th Jan with an amount to become paid off. Today, the same amount has been debited - maybe somebody didn't want to take the rewrite after all??

In the meantime I've already invested the amount meaning that my cash balance is now negative. I'm currently investing harmoney's money :t_up:

unhuman
01-02-2016, 12:18 PM
In the meantime I've already invested the amount meaning that my cash balance is now negative. I'm currently investing harmoney's money :t_up:

Ha, had that as well when I first started. I thought it was very nice of them to let me earn interest with their money. :)

Cool Bear
01-02-2016, 01:20 PM
The service fees I am paying is tapering off its scary growth and as at today is effectively 2.62% (instead of 1.25%). I started in July last year and the calculations as at the first of each month was Jul 1.25%, Aug 1.39, Sep 1.50, Oct 1.71, Nov 2.00, Dec 2.44, Jan 2.61, Feb 2.62%.

Knot
01-02-2016, 02:16 PM
Just had some interesting account activity- LAI-00031926 was credited on 27th Jan with an amount to become paid off. Today, the same amount has been debited - maybe somebody didn't want to take the rewrite after all??

In the meantime I've already invested the amount meaning that my cash balance is now negative. I'm currently investing harmoney's money :t_up:

LAI-00054030 did a similar thing on Friday, even now it is broken, marked as fully funded, and also only 98% funded. I have queried Harmoney but they have yet to reply.

I suspect a number of Investors might of reallocated the returned funds, and now the loan is stuck until their account is brought to a non negative balance (This is just a guess on my part).

My account was only overdrawn for about 16 hours as I had further funds incoming on Friday night.

Finite
01-02-2016, 02:18 PM
The service fees I am paying is tapering off its scary growth and as at today is effectively 2.62% (instead of 1.25%). I started in July last year and the calculations as at the first of each month was Jul 1.25%, Aug 1.39, Sep 1.50, Oct 1.71, Nov 2.00, Dec 2.44, Jan 2.61, Feb 2.62%.

What is your strategy to avoid rewrites?
I'm only choosing loans that are rewrites or are at, or near, the borrowing limit for their risk grade.

Harvey Specter
01-02-2016, 02:34 PM
What is your strategy to avoid rewrites?
I'm only choosing loans that are rewrites or are at, or near, the borrowing limit for their risk grade.I thought being a re-write, they would be predisposed to re-writes and likely to top up, even if only back to the original amount, down the line.

Cool Bear
01-02-2016, 03:21 PM
What is your strategy to avoid rewrites?
I'm only choosing loans that are rewrites or are at, or near, the borrowing limit for their risk grade.
Up to now, I have not been too concerned about rewrites although I had been monitoring its effect on my investment. I update my criteria for choosing loans to invest and how much to invest in each loan everytime I hit about 500 loans. Now that I am well over 1500, it is time to update again and like you, I did thought to favour loans that are rewrites or near their limits or over a certain $amount.

humvee
03-02-2016, 09:07 PM
Has anyone elses arrears just dropped alot (like around 40%). I wonder if maybe they have removed charged off loans from arrears because i dont think this was happening before.

Cool Bear
03-02-2016, 09:23 PM
Has anyone elses arrears just dropped alot (like around 40%). I wonder if maybe they have removed charged off loans from arrears because i dont think this was happening before.
Yes, mine drop quite a bit and now back to about the level before the Christmas/New Year holidays. Harmoney did say that arrears will be high during those few weeks.

Wsp
04-02-2016, 07:17 AM
Has anyone elses arrears just dropped alot (like around 40%). I wonder if maybe they have removed charged off loans from arrears because i dont think this was happening before.

Yes mine dropped over 50%. Suspect they removed charged off loans.

Also does anyone else have charged off loans with a negative value for outstanding principal. What does that mean?

777
04-02-2016, 08:14 AM
Yes mine dropped over 50%. Suspect they removed charged off loans.

Also does anyone else have charged off loans with a negative value for outstanding principal. What does that mean?

It means after the charge off they have paid some more which raises the question, why were they charged off in the first place. I have one that has made two payments since.

Soolaimon
04-02-2016, 08:42 AM
Has anyone elses arrears just dropped alot (like around 40%). I wonder if maybe they have removed charged off loans from arrears because i dont think this was happening before.

That does seem to be the case. My arrears amount now reconciles with the total from the actual arrears on current loans. This is the first time this has happened in a long time. All good.

Darchie
04-02-2016, 12:29 PM
Couple anniversary days will be the reason

humvee
04-02-2016, 08:01 PM
Anniversary days are not bank public holidays. So should not really make a big difference

Darchie
05-02-2016, 06:13 AM
Yeah but it appears Harmoney has a larger hands on with their systems than one would ever expect. Also looks like they do have some issues going on as bulk arrears are stacking up and loans showing fully funded are taking longer to leave the in funding fields, just taking longer than in the past ... bet their IT Department are producing more BO than usual!

humvee
05-02-2016, 09:51 PM
How do i cancel an order. Harmoney has double processed my order..... and it was a large order too 16 different notes at once.

I confirmed the order it spent ages trying to process the order then errored saying it could not process and gave me an option to review the order. I checked the error and could not see any problem and my available balance had not reduced. So i tried confrim the order again(as i have done before when an order errored processing.) Again it took ages before erroring and saying it could not process. Again i reviewed the order by balance avaiable still had not reduced. Again i could not see a problem. Again i tried process the order and again it took ages before erroring.

But this time the error was different I had not enough avaiable fund for the order. And now the balance has been updated and shows my account has been emptied of available funds. And looking at order history both the failed orders have been processed duplicating the order

humvee
05-02-2016, 09:53 PM
Not what i needed on a long weekend.

Halebop
05-02-2016, 10:07 PM
Has anyone elses arrears just dropped alot (like around 40%). I wonder if maybe they have removed charged off loans from arrears because i dont think this was happening before.

They definitely processed a number of loans from in arrears to charged off in a short space of time. I like to see them take more control of their process and smooth this out. This will have cleared arrears but also acknowledged some losses.

There is also some room to improve data quality - I had a number of arrears where the client had paid the correct amount but Harmoney had under-allocated principal and over-allocated interest but the client had net paid the correct amount or that were just up to date but somehow tagged as arrears. Some of these cleared... and others appeared in their place (see Prepaid and Up to Date counts in the Aged Debtors summary on the attached image).

Am watching arrears closely because once the aging moves to more than 90 days the probability of reporting defaults appear to rise substantially. Overall Harmoney suggest I'm making 16.01%, I calculate something more like 15.5% and my lazy cash awaiting investments that they don't factor in calculations drag it closer to 14.5%

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/HBOP/HARMONEY_GIF_zpsze40ppe5.gif (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/HBOP/media/HARMONEY_GIF_zpsze40ppe5.gif.html)

Halebop
05-02-2016, 10:09 PM
Not what i needed on a long weekend.

I had this occur once and they offered to back it out but it was a single note and I couldn't be bothered. Just contact them, seems like they can resolve...

777
06-02-2016, 08:16 AM
Halebop that dashboard you showed, is it from Harmoney or your own. Mine is nothing like that.

Halebop
06-02-2016, 08:25 AM
Hale hop that dashboard you showed, is it from Harmoney or your own. Mine is nothing like that.

It's the secret Harmoney dashboard given to preferred customers... just kidding!... It's mine constructed from data mostly using the export function on their report page but also a couple of manually maintained tables I keep that specifically track defaults and overall performance.

777
06-02-2016, 08:30 AM
It's the secret Harmoney dashboard given to preferred customers... just kidding!... It's mine constructed from data mostly using the export function on their report page but also a couple of manually maintained tables I keep that specifically track defaults and overall performance.

That's alright then. As a net withdrawer I probably would not be a preferred customer anyway. Thanks and well done.

Finite
06-02-2016, 01:15 PM
Hi everyone,

I have been automating my Harmoney investment for over a year (since the beginning of Harmoney). With over 25k invested, my personal RAR and XIRR is 15%.

Using a web application we have built, investors can set up and configure their personal investment criteria (strategies/filters). The system will then automatically invest in loans that match your investment strategy. With this application, there no need to manually check the loan marketplace for new loans.

Here is a preview image of the investment strategy page to demonstrate what our current capabilities are:

https://i.imgur.com/MIgvDH0.png

More preview images are available here: https://imgur.com/a/ufRUr

We are planning to make this application publicly available shortly.
For those interested in an early preview or have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Are you saying that Harmoney have provided a API for others to use?
Or have you reverse engineered their system and are doing this without their blessing?

winner69
06-02-2016, 02:47 PM
Heartland and others with their 10s of millions must have some automated process?

Can't imagine several Heartland staff sitting down in front of terminals and deciding one by one which peers they will lend their millions to in $25 lots - yes?

Saamee
07-02-2016, 07:50 AM
Investing Strategy changed!

With the obvious higher number of Re-Writes around these days @ Harmony, I am now mainly looking for either ( and preferably both ) of the following:

1) Re-Written loans

2) An initial loan with a high loan amount.. 25K+

Hopefully moving forwards, a Re-Written loan has less chance of being a Re-Re-Written loan! plus that an almost max Credit loan will not need to be Re-Written in the coming months....

Harvey Specter
08-02-2016, 08:54 AM
But won't they just rewrite for another $5k when they have paid off the first $5k of $25k?
I would have thought the fact they have rewritten once means they are motivated to get their balance to Zero

Saamee
08-02-2016, 10:29 AM
But won't they just rewrite for another $5k when they have paid off the first $5k of $25k?
I would have thought the fact they have rewritten once means they are motivated to get their balance to Zero

My understanding of Harmoney Re-Writing a loan is to Increase the amount of Credit extended... The Borrower wishes to get deeper in to Debt not even thinking about really the day of clearing the loan!!

The Re-Writes are an Expansion to the original loan. Many new Re-Writes are just 1 month young... meaning very little capital has yet been repaid.....

Darchie
11-02-2016, 06:52 AM
I read Harmoneys comment in that SST article about their service fee of 1.25% being increased. This spurred me to contact them direct to see how soon this was to happen and more importantly were they going to address this unfair effect upon investors of continually clipping the principal on the many rewrites. Their response was positive as they are, which will be later in the year! so thankfully they've finally listened to the many who have obviously voiced their distain of this rip-off! .. but detail on how they plan this new fee direction I believe should be released sooner than later...

Finite
11-02-2016, 04:17 PM
I read Harmoneys comment in that SST article about their service fee of 1.25% being increased. This spurred me to contact them direct to see how soon this was to happen and more importantly were they going to address this unfair effect upon investors of continually clipping the principal on the many rewrites. Their response was positive as they are, which will be later in the year! so thankfully they've finally listened to the many who have obviously voiced their distain of this rip-off! .. but detail on how they plan this new fee direction I believe should be released sooner than later...

This is good news.
Now we just need them to make good on on their original promise, at the time of launching, of a secondary market.
I won't mention their change (that was not notified to investors) of removing late fees from tardy borrowers that were meant to be paid to investors!