Harmoney

[Dan@Harmoney]

That loan has updated again, the funds appear in my account now, but there is still the question of the payment date, and last payment amount.

7947

Things just don't make sense with the date and last payment amount, at least not to me.

Hi Knot, Here's what happened with this loan account. I'll break it down into three parts:

Borrower Payments The monthly loan payments of $347.05 due on the 20th of the month, the first being due 20 Feb (I am using full loan amounts not your share of the loan for simplicity). The direct debit was rejected so the the borrower has made direct credit payments; one of $300.00 on 25/02 and another of $47.05 on 1/03. As the direct credit did not have the right reference and was not for the full loan amount it has taken some time to confirm the account and apply the payments. When the payments were applied on 21/3 the second payment was due so the the payment has only reduced the interest which is why you see the payment only against gross interest. The payment hierarchy for payments received is fees, interest, then principal so in this case the amount of interest owed in the first two payments was $531.84 of the $694.10 due (interest is a high proportion of of the total payment in early months of the loan), which is why the $347.05 received has only been applied to interest. If the second payment is received in the next few days a high proportion of the payment will reduce principal owing.

Arrears Status If the second payment of $347.05 is not received by 27 March (after the 7 day grace period, not allowing for easter) the account will go into arrears status.

Lender Dashboard The reason the $0.23 is not showing in your cash is that there can be a lag between when reporting updates and when cash is transferred. As the copy in the lender dashboard says "Timing of data updates can cause short-term variances between the dashboard and reports section."

Hope that helps.

[Bjauck]

...I notice that there is a lot of agitation on this board about the early repayment fees due to rewrites, suggesting that the LC model of a 10% fee on gross interest would be preferable. However whilst it does give certainty, in my case the Harmoney fees have been 8.66% of the gross for the last 12 months, so it could be a case of be careful what you wish for. As a matter of interest, do you have charge-offs? If so, what % of your gross interest do they comprise?

[Knot]

Thanks for that. A good explanation. The 23 cents is still confusing to me because it was there before the rest. But I am not too worried.

[Cool Bear]

I notice that the Platform RAR has dropped from 12.59 to 11.66 in the last month. According to the website


I notice that there is a lot of agitation on this board about the early repayment fees due to rewrites, suggesting that the LC model of a 10% fee on gross interest would be preferable. However whilst it does give certainty, in my case the Harmoney fees have been 8.66% of the gross for the last 12 months, so it could be a case of be careful what you wish for.
I fully agree and had posted earlier that I had no problem with rewrites. My fees as a percentage of interest is currently only 4.72% and that is with all the rewrites. I agree that the rewrites do not make the fees transparent but I am happy with the current level of fees which is half of LendingCrowd . I am also with LendingCrowd as well as LendMe. Tried signing with Squirrel but found it too difficult and time consuming (investing via a company).

Note to Monica - not everyone is unhappy with the current fees!

[humvee]

I fully agree and had posted earlier that I had no problem with rewrites. My fees as a percentage of interest is currently only 4.72% and that is with all the rewrites. I agree that the rewrites do not make the fees transparent but I am happy with the current level of fees which is half of LendingCrowd . I am also with LendingCrowd as well as LendMe. Tried signing with Squirrel but found it too difficult and time consuming (investing via a company).

Note to Monica - not everyone is unhappy with the current fees!

I have also previously posted similar while how the fees work on rewrites is not a good look. At the end of the day the fees as a % of interest earned is acceptable and that is what really counts.

I am probably helped by the fact i generally only invest in D E F grades. Which have lower rewrite rates and higher interest rates.

[Saamee]

Here > Service Fee / Gross Interest ratio = 7.37% - Joined with HM AUG 15.

If I also add in the 1 write off to date, that rises to 8.6%

[Finite]

Here > Service Fee ratio = 0.0737% - Joined with HM AUG 15.

If I also add in the 1 write off to date, that rises to 0.086%

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Ratio of what to what?
Do you mean 0.0737 is the ratio which equates to 7.37%?

[Saamee]

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Ratio of what to what?
Do you mean 0.0737 is the ratio which equates to 7.37%?

Hi Finite :) If you have read the above posts you might have read NZTYKE talk about Harmoney Fees / Gross Interest = Net % Fees

[Bjauck]

...
I am probably helped by the fact i generally only invest in D E F grades. Which have lower rewrite rates and higher interest rates. And presumably charge-offs make up a higher percentage of gross interest?

[Cool Bear]

Here > Service Fee / Gross Interest ratio = 7.37% - Joined with HM AUG 15.

If I also add in the 1 write off to date, that rises to 8.6%

Write offs is my main concern. So, my numbers are fees/interest = 4.75%, including my 16 writeoffs, then 16.5%!!

[Harvey Specter]

Write offs is my main concern. So, my numbers are fees/interest = 4.75%, including my 16 writeoffs, then 16.5%!!5% 😄 and 38% 😭

[mlt322]

Monica/Dan, I was wondering whether Harmoney has considered providing an affiliate or referral program where investors (and possibly lenders) can earn a commission or fee for referring new clients?

[Cool Bear]

5%  and 38% 
Wow, you must be in DEF mostly. But if your interest earned is an average of 30% and you lose 38% of that to fees and write-offs, you still end up with a RAR of 18.6%:t_up:. My RAR is below 15.

[Bjauck]

Wow, you must be in DEF mostly. But if your interest earned is an average of 30% and you lose 38% of that to fees and write-offs, you still end up with a RAR of 18.6%:t_up:. My RAR is below 15. If I remember correctly, I think H.S. is "in business" and invests in Harmoney notes through a company. That would mean that his charge-offs are more than likely deductible as well(DYOR!)

[Cool Bear]

anyone having problem signing in via a tablet today or ever? I just cannot seem to sign in via a tablet but can do it via my desktop.

[Harvey Specter]

Wow, you must be in DEF mostly. But if your interest earned is an average of 30% and you lose 38% of that to fees and write-offs, you still end up with a RAR of 18.6%:t_up:. My RAR is below 15.yes DEF. But only 13.6%


If I remember correctly, I think H.S. is "in business" and invests in Harmoney notes through a company. That would mean that his charge-offs are more than likely deductible as well(DYOR!)correct

[Cool Bear]

anyone having problem signing in via a tablet today or ever? I just cannot seem to sign in via a tablet but can do it via my desktop.
Finally managed to sign in but have to change browser on another device - just cannot sign in via the standard browser that comes with Android on two different devices.

[percy]

Finally managed to sign in but have to change browser on another device - just cannot sign in via the standard browser that comes with Android on two different devices.

May be a problem caused by too much Zumba.??

[ratkin]

How is everyones realised rate of return going?.
mine is 12.88% so far. Nrly all A or B investments with a couple of C thrown in. No defaults so far.
only been a year or so, but encouraging start

[Kelvin]

16.89%, mostly B-D with some E, A and F.

1 default (an E2) out of ~140 notes invested so far

[Bjauck]

In addition to the current Harmoney-supplied RAR, based only on the value of your notes invested. Wouldn't it be useful & more realistic also to get a figure based on: 1. Your total investment in the Harmoney system, including amount not actually invested in notes 2. A net return after deducting your marginal tax rate (levied on gross interest) in addition to deductions for the charge-offs and service fees. The net return could then be grossed up using your marginal tax rate and making allowances for which if any of the service fees and charge-offs are deductible for their tax circumstances.

[Harvey Specter]

In addition to the current Harmoney-supplied RAR, based only on the value of your notes invested. Wouldn't it be useful & more realistic also to get a figure based on: 1. Your total investment in the Harmoney system, including amount not actually invested in notes 2. A net return after deducting your marginal tax rate (levied on gross interest) in addition to deductions for the charge-offs and service fees. The net return could then be grossed up using your marginal tax rate and making allowances for which if any of the service fees and charge-offs are deductible for their tax circumstances.1. could be helpful?
2. i think Gross returns are best as thats how pretty much every other investment is quoted (with exception of PIEs). Everyones tax rate etc is different so would be far to hard for Harmoney to calculate. The fact that charge offs are probably non deductible for most people does distort the mental calculation compared to most investments but how is Harmoney to know your tax situation.

[Bjauck]

.. 2. i think Gross returns are best as thats how pretty much every other investment is quoted (with exception of PIEs). Everyones tax rate etc is different so would be far to hard for Harmoney to calculate. The fact that charge offs are probably non deductible for most people does distort the mental calculation compared to most investments but how is Harmoney to know your tax situation. It is not necessarily a particuarly accurate comparative gross return however depending on level of charge-offs, their deductibility and the average amount earning no interest in your account. I am not sure how difficult it would be for Harmoney to provide a customised Net RAR for investors. I would have thought that it would be quite simple to provide a calculation, with investors selecting their RWT rate and whether or not they want charge-offs to be tax deductible. The resultant net figure could then be easily grossed up using your selected RWT rate to provide a figure for comparison with other investments. Harmoney have all the figures for their investors. Along with notifying their RWT, Investors could tell Harmoney whether or not they want charge-offs to be deductible for the calculations.

[Cool Bear]

May be a problem caused by too much Zumba.??
Haha.. You must come to a class one day, you may like it.

[Cool Bear]

How is everyones realised rate of return going?.
mine is 12.88% so far. Nrly all A or B investments with a couple of C thrown in. No defaults so far.
only been a year or so, but encouraging start
14.72, A to F, lopsided bell curve favouring A and B over E and F. 1600+loans, 16 writeoffs, 10 months.

[Cool Bear]

14.72, A to F, lopsided bell curve favouring A and B over E and F. 1600+loans, 16 writeoffs, 10 months.
just sign in to Harmoney :mad ;:make that 18 chargeoffs, which will probably drop my RAR to mid 14%

[Kelvin]

just sign in to Harmoney :mad ;:make that 18 chargeoffs, which will probably drop my RAR to mid 14%

Seems like they do charge offs in one big lot every month. I just got my second today - E4, hadn't paid since last October :(

With such a small amount invested, each charge off wipes out pretty much a whole months worth of profits for me :mad ;:

[Monica@Harmoney]

Monica/Dan, I was wondering whether Harmoney has considered providing an affiliate or referral program where investors (and possibly lenders) can earn a commission or fee for referring new clients?

Hi mit322. To be honest, we haven't considered this but its an interesting concept - thanks for your feedback. Monica

[Darchie]

I can see why the fee on rewrites are affecting different investors differently
..for me it's lethal at the moment ..but in time it will improve!! ... I realise my mistake now though ...
I'd tried to invest my 40k too quickly and didn't fractionalise it enough.
Also now i only look at A5 if absolutely nothing else offering but no other A's.

You see putting $500 into A loans doesn't work well when they're repaid for rewrites. .. I note one of my A5's which I'd put $300 into repaid 5weeks later ... so most of my repaids (have 44 now) will have the 1.25% being charged on those higher principal amounts!
So my advice to anyone getting into Harmoney is spread your entry over time and DO Totally fractionalise, a rewrite fee smack on one note is here nor there!

[Finite]

I can see why the fee on rewrites are affecting different investors differently
..for me it's lethal at the moment ..but in time it will improve!! ... I realise my mistake now though ...
I'd tried to invest my 40k too quickly and didn't fractionalise it enough.
Also now i only look at A5 if absolutely nothing else offering but no other A's.

You see putting $500 into A loans doesn't work well when they're repaid for rewrites. .. I note one of my A5's which I'd put $300 into repaid 5weeks later ... so most of my repaids (have 44 now) will have the 1.25% being charged on those higher principal amounts!
So my advice to anyone getting into Harmoney is spread your entry over time and DO Totally fractionalise, a rewrite fee smack on one note is here nor there!

Darchie,
Equally, you could have been fine with a low degree of fractionisation - and beaten the average.
Max use of fictionalization means you end up with the average.

ie. given the distribution of the total of Harmonys loan data (std dev and mean etc) there is some calculation that gives the number of loans you need to be invested in, that will give you a 99% confidence of achieving the average.
May be some statistician out their can supply the details?

[kiwi_on_OE]

16.89%, mostly B-D with some E, A and F.

1 default (an E2) out of ~140 notes invested so far

RAR less than platform RAR from a spread of loans across all grades, but skewed to the better grades. Have only been going a few months and hoping that it will increase. But just had a write-off so RAR will be going down. Remaining amount written off a month after first/last payment. Not sure what that says about the borrower; Harmoney's assessment of the borrower; Harmoney's process of attempting to recover the money from the borrower.

It does seem to be consistent with my fear that Harmoney don't have any great incentive to try particularly hard to recover the loans in default.

[WingingIt]

It does seem to be consistent with my fear that Harmoney don't have any great incentive to try particularly hard to recover the loans in default.

If its going to cost them more than 1.25% of the loan amount to try collect some money then I guess they don't really care?

I emailed in with a specific question to what was being done about a charged off loan, loan that was used to buy a new car, and just got a standard copy and paste reply from their FAQ's. I;d already read that and wanted more detail.

[Monica@Harmoney]

NB: Harmoney login is currently down for some of our investors. Our apologies for any inconvenience - we are working to fix this asap. Monica

[Knot]

Hi Monica,

Thanks for letting us know. I was wondering what was going on.

[Monica@Harmoney]

NB: Harmoney login is currently down for some of our investors. Our apologies for any inconvenience - we are working to fix this asap. Monica

Harmoney login is back up and running. Thanks for your patience. Monica

[Monica@Harmoney]

If its going to cost them more than 1.25% of the loan amount to try collect some money then I guess they don't really care?

I emailed in with a specific question to what was being done about a charged off loan, loan that was used to buy a new car, and just got a standard copy and paste reply from their FAQ's. I;d already read that and wanted more detail.

Please email me offline monica.mathis@harmoney.co.nz should you have any questions regarding a specific loan. I will reiterate that Harmoney's collection process is a robust one and that can be seen in our market statistics page where if you scroll down, our arrears results are much better than forecast across all grades. Any specific questions regarding this, please email me offline. Monica

[Darchie]

Just went into check my Orders today and see that my last order on 24th March, plus all those on 25th & 26th that I submitted. Totalling14 notes ... but only 5 of these have been issued. I ask are there other lenders out there where this is similar or am I an issolated case.
Basically all since those have been issued just fine! Just seems a bit weird!

[Jinx]

Just went into check my Orders today and see that my last order on 24th March, plus all those on 25th & 26th that I submitted. Totalling14 notes ... but only 5 of these have been issued. I ask are there other lenders out there where this is similar or am I an issolated case.
Basically all since those have been issued just fine! Just seems a bit weird!

I submitted a total of 4 orders (on the: 21st, 22nd, 2nd, 2nd) for a total of 13 notes and all have been issued. Maybe just an unlucky case?

[Knot]

I had a couple over Easter weekend that were refunded. No status update on the application as yet.

[Saamee]

I had a couple over Easter weekend that were refunded. No status update on the application as yet.

Here also... 7 orders over the Easter weekend were cancelled. I called the Fiji support centre and was informed that the HM system was too slow at updating notes purchased - and therefore many notes were over subscribed. I do remember some of the 7 notes I invested in were only like 65% full when I purchased!

It has not happened again since the Easter weekend. ( only the login issue later last week )

[Bjauck]

It is not necessarily a particuarly accurate comparative gross return however depending on level of charge-offs, their deductibility and the average amount earning no interest in your account. I am not sure how difficult it would be for Harmoney to provide a customised Net RAR for investors. I would have thought that it would be quite simple to provide a calculation, with investors selecting their RWT rate and whether or not they want charge-offs to be tax deductible. The resultant net figure could then be easily grossed up using your selected RWT rate to provide a figure for comparison with other investments. Harmoney have all the figures for their investors. Along with notifying their RWT, Investors could tell Harmoney whether or not they want charge-offs to be deductible for the calculations.

Excluding money in the non-interest bearing account, I have calculated that the (gross) RAR supplied by Harmoney may be reasonably accurate for those business investors who can (DYOR) deduct for tax purposes the charge-offs that they incur. As Harmoney promotes and offers itself as a Peer-to-Peer investment, would it not be more fitting for it to calculate its RAR making an adjustment for the fact that investors,who are not in business, cannot (DYOR) deduct their charge-offs? (Guidance from the IRD for this type of investor in this new investment type would be nice!)

Harmoney already conduct calculations using personalised RWT rates, so they would probably be capable of personalising Charge-off deductibility and providing the calculations for individual net RAR and grossed up RAR. For a 33% tax rate, according to my calculations, non-deductibility of charge-offs can approximately lower gross RAR by 0.25% per 5% of gross interest "expensed" by charge-offs. So charge-offs comprising 30% of gross interest approximatey lowers the grossed-up RAR by 1.5% for those who cannot deduct them for tax.

[Cool Bear]

:scared: heaps of writeoffs today!

[humvee]

:scared: heaps of writeoffs today!

holy heck today I have been slaughtered with writeoffs

[humvee]

Alot of the written off loans were issued this year with not a single repayment too.

[humvee]

This weeks write offs alone have been enough to knock 3% Per annum off my returns made since day 1

[CR111]

My last six written off loans have some amazing similarities. Almost to the point of not being believable. All six borrowers had the same income, within a $1 a month. All six said the money was for their further education. All six were taken out in January or February this year. All six had the same monthly payment, but I guess that was due to them all being the maximum loan amount.

[777]

My last six written off loans have some amazing similarities. Almost to the point of not being believable. All six borrowers had the same income, within a $1 a month. All six said the money was for their further education. All six were taken out in January or February this year. All six had the same monthly payment, but I guess that was due to them all being the maximum loan amount.

And no doubt all six had no intention of paying them.

[Darchie]

Yeah i too had 4 written-off today & all were taken out January or February, so all quite young ... but comparing each loan listing against each other highlights they're so similar that I'd say they've all been taken out by the very same person ... I'm told by Harmoney that they are fraudulent! In an earlier contact with Harmoney they did say that a couple of my arrears were a case of "Fraud. Full ID takeover. Under police investigation"
All my 4 were F grade.
About the only positive i can get is; it's help lower my arrears, which seem to be rather high these days ... i wonder if more of my arrears that have paid zero will also get written-off. ... it hurts the yield alright!

[humvee]

Lai-00055146
lai-00054117
lai-00054100
lai-00053612
lai-00053274
lai-00052943
lai-00052647
lai-00052256
lai-00051494

[Cool Bear]

My 4 write offs have almost identical borrowers comments. Mark of Harmoney confirmed that it is a fraud and "The perpetrator has been caught by the police and will be facing charges. They not only got away with Harmoney loans but banks and finance companies as well."

[humvee]

These are just too similar - and all written off

7964

[humvee]

and more

7965

[humvee]

My 4 write offs have almost identical borrowers comments. Mark of Harmoney confirmed that it is a fraud and "The perpetrator has been caught by the police and will be facing charges. They not only got away with Harmoney loans but banks and finance companies as well."

So how big was this ? - Just from the 9 Loan ID's I have that look to have been hit they look to have netted $58,375 - And thats just what I know about from harmoney. Does any one else have any other loan ID's hit that I dont have listed above?

[humvee]

My last six written off loans have some amazing similarities. Almost to the point of not being believable. All six borrowers had the same income, within a $1 a month. All six said the money was for their further education. All six were taken out in January or February this year. All six had the same monthly payment, but I guess that was due to them all being the maximum loan amount.

Hi CR111

Were any of your 6 loan ID's different to my 9? I want to know how big this is?

[humvee]

So names given in comments are

Laura
Kurt
Christina
Cristie
Courtney
Emily
Natalee

So does this mean that the borrower managed to produce documentation and ID for all of these names? Or does it mean that harmoney does not check to see if the comments contain majorly incorrect and blatantly FALSE information

[Darchie]

Hi CR111

Were any of your 6 loan ID's different to my 9? I want to know how big this is?

My 4 are revealed in your list humvee... Lower Hutt's seems 2b a regular feature!

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

laura
kurt :)
Christina
Cristie
LAI-00052943
Courtney
Natalee

[kiwi_on_OE]

@Monica, I'd also be interested to know about loan 53460.

For those lucky enough not to have this loan, it has also been written-off only a couple of months after being issued, although they did make one payment, so perhaps not part of the fraud that has been mentioned. But still concerning that a loan can be written-off so quickly, it suggests to me that something a bit strange has happened.

No matter the cause of these write-offs, is it surprising they have been written-off? Does it suggest the person involved is not even in NZ, as if they were local and had been tracked down I would have thought there is some potential for getting some money back. It also makes me wonder about the processes used by Harmoney to verify the identity from NZ drivers license or passport, confirm their bank account exists, credit checks, income etc.

[Knot]

LAI-00053297 is one from around the same time. no payments as yet. Not written off yet though.

[Bjauck]

Grade F and Grade E notes, even with their high interest rates, are not for the faint hearted, no matter how good the credit check system. At least if you are investing in the notes through a business, you should be able to deduct the write-offs from taxable income. It will be interesting to see the next statistics release to see if the write-off rate is still tracking under Harmoney's original predictions.

[Monica@Harmoney]

Lai-00055146
lai-00054117
lai-00054100
lai-00053612
lai-00053274
lai-00052943
lai-00052647
lai-00052256
lai-00051494


These are fraud cases and to put it into perspective, represents just 0.10% of all loans written to date. Being a financial institutional, fraud is a reality for all financial institutions and this is an exceptional results by industry standards. These frauds have also impacted banks, other financial institutions. In all fraud attempts, we have made it our mission to ensure that the people involved have been reported to the Police and are being followed up.


This is also a mere fraction of the number of fraud attempts which we have caught before they have completed the process and we continue to monitor and improve our results in this area.


While we have a thorough and robust identity verification process to guard against these types of cases, there remains a possibility that borrowers may be fraudulent, with no intent to repay. The fraud is generally a full identity theft, in which case the person receiving the money has misappropriated the details of the person whose full identity has been used to apply for the personal loan.

[humvee]

These are fraud cases and to put it into perspective, represents just 0.10% of all loans written to date. Being a financial institutional, fraud is a reality for all financial institutions and this is an exceptional results by industry standards. These frauds have also impacted banks, other financial institutions. In all fraud attempts, we have made it our mission to ensure that the people involved have been reported to the Police and are being followed up.


This is also a mere fraction of the number of fraud attempts which we have caught before they have completed the process and we continue to monitor and improve our results in this area.


While we have a thorough and robust identity verification process to guard against these types of cases, there remains a possibility that borrowers may be fraudulent, with no intent to repay. The fraud is generally a full identity theft, in which case the person receiving the money has misappropriated the details of the person whose full identity has been used to apply for the personal loan.

So Can you please confirm/clarify a few things

How many loans were effected by this particular fraud case (is the 9 I have been hit with all of them - or are there more)

Do the 1st Names given in the comments match the names that the loans were applied for under?

[kiwi_on_OE]

Hi Harmoney

I've been trying to reconcile my Mar stmt, but it's not balancing. When I investigate it I find that a transaction in the Feb stmt has been removed in the Mar stmt. This is for loan 53503. Investment made 22 Jan, pymt rcvd 26 Feb (in Feb stmt), two pymts rcvd 19 Mar for the entire loan amount, and it currently shows as cancelled in the reports. Can you explain?

[Saamee]

An interesting article on P2P just landed at interest.co.nz today >

http://www.interest.co.nz/business/80861/ex-pat-kiwi-running-aussie-p2p-lender-criticises-nzs-light-touch-regulatory-regime

[winner69]

This fraud thing - rather funny and somewhat ironic to me.

I FAILED the identity test to become an investor.

Thought rather funny and when they said try again I told them to get stuffed

[Saamee]

These days there are SO Many Re-Writes to Invest in I am strictly ONLY Investing in Re-Writes. I look primarily for the Loans over 30K as there is minimal chance of another Re-Write!

I have requested from HM Stats on how many Re-Writes are going on to be Re-Writes for a 2nd time.

At the time of asking I was informed so far this was about 10 Re-Written loans that had then been Re-Re-Written!

Also that they are collecting these Stats currently for release at some point.

[lche059]

These are fraud cases and to put it into perspective, represents just 0.10% of all loans written to date. Being a financial institutional, fraud is a reality for all financial institutions and this is an exceptional results by industry standards. These frauds have also impacted banks, other financial institutions. In all fraud attempts, we have made it our mission to ensure that the people involved have been reported to the Police and are being followed up.


This is also a mere fraction of the number of fraud attempts which we have caught before they have completed the process and we continue to monitor and improve our results in this area.


While we have a thorough and robust identity verification process to guard against these types of cases, there remains a possibility that borrowers may be fraudulent, with no intent to repay. The fraud is generally a full identity theft, in which case the person receiving the money has misappropriated the details of the person whose full identity has been used to apply for the personal loan.

i got 1 out of 100 or so i invested in. 1% is not very good but i guess i'm unlucky. so how many loans do i need to achieve this 0.1% fraud rate?
and what's the chance of getting the money back after the police get involved? 0.01%?

[lche059]

These days there are SO Many Re-Writes to Invest in I am strictly ONLY Investing in Re-Writes. I look primarily for the Loans over 30K as there is minimal chance of another Re-Write!

I have requested from HM Stats on how many Re-Writes are going on to be Re-Writes for a 2nd time.

At the time of asking I was informed so far this was about 10 Re-Written loans that had then been Re-Re-Written!

Also that they are collecting these Stats currently for release at some point.

if only fraudsters knew that they only need make a couple repayments to get a bigger loan ... return on rewrites would tank.

[Saamee]

if only fraudsters knew that they only need make a couple repayments to get a bigger loan ... return on rewrites would tank.

Ha ha ha - Yes very true!

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Stats out of interest for those that care.

$57000 over 2521 active loans over 3363 loans in total.
Most loans i take are $25 alotments towards the higher end of risk curve - in the early days of harmoney there wasnt enough loans to be picky.
Ive suffered $1575.04 charge offs over 65 loans (including the above frauds).
11.80% return after tax according to excel XIRR function. or 15.30% platform rar last time calculated 21/03/2016.

My investment strategy has been lots of high risk loans but diversified over many loans.

I figure you need a certain size of loan book to get the diversfication and the advantage of componding the investment as returns come in daily. Ie no waiting with funds sitting in my account.

I see the rewrites as an advantage as it offers a way for the investor to get his money out quicker - so there is some advantage.

[emveha]

I see the rewrites as an advantage as it offers a way for the investor to get his money out quicker - so their is some advantage.

I wouldn't mind paying a premium to get my money out quicker if needed, but I'd rather chose when I can do it (instead of waiting for rewrites). What we really need is a secondary market.

[easy money]

Stats out of interest for those that care.

$57000 over 2521 active loans over 3363 loans in total.
Most loans i take are $25 alotments towards the higher end of risk curve - in the early days of harmoney there wasnt enough loans to be picky.
Ive suffered $1575.04 charge offs over 65 loans (including the above frauds).
11.80% return after tax according to excel XIRR function. or 15.30% platform rar last time calculated 21/03/2016.

My investment strategy has been lots of high risk loans but diversified over many loans.

I figure you need a certain size of loan book to get the diversfication and the advantage of componding the investment as returns come in daily. Ie no waiting with funds sitting in my account.

I see the rewrites as an advantage as it offers a way for the investor to get his money out quicker - so there is some advantage.
Have the loans with the most risk given you the most problems.?

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

have the loans with the most risk given you the most problems.?



b4
2


c1
2


c2
1


c5
3


d1
8


d2
1


d3
1



d4
1


d5
2


e1
1


e2
5


e3
2


e4
7


e5
2


f1
7


f2
5


f3
4


f4
2


f5
9

[Broke]

b4
2


c1
2


c2
1


c5
3


d1
8


d2
1


d3
1


d4
1


d5
2


e1
1


e2
5


e3
2


e4
7


e5
2


f1
7


f2
5


f3
4


f4
2


f5
9




Got any ratio of your risk grade loans issued?

Mine is:
20% A
30% B
15% C
15% D
15% E
5% F

Around 350 loans 11% RAR after tax and fees. 14% HM RAR

Got Defaulted on by 2 F grades.. To be expected, I would heavily avoid or take caution with these grades







This fraud thing - rather funny and somewhat ironic to me.

I FAILED the identity test to become an investor.

Thought rather funny and when they said try again I told them to get stuffed

I failed my investor application too, back in the day, just hang in there.. I had to re-send my ID scans. Just email them, they'll help you out

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Approx according to their graph (investment spread)

A 6%
B 16%
C 18%
D 24%
E 23%
F 12%

[Dan@Harmoney]

So Can you please confirm/clarify a few things

How many loans were effected by this particular fraud case (is the 9 I have been hit with all of them - or are there more)

Do the 1st Names given in the comments match the names that the loans were applied for under?

There were 9 loans in total in this case. They were all full ID take overs from stolen ID's (which means all personal details match) generally acquired through breaking and entering. It appears to be a sophisticated fraud ring and this matter is now with Police who were interviewing the suspects on Friday.

[Dan@Harmoney]

Hi Harmoney

I've been trying to reconcile my Mar stmt, but it's not balancing. When I investigate it I find that a transaction in the Feb stmt has been removed in the Mar stmt. This is for loan 53503. Investment made 22 Jan, pymt rcvd 26 Feb (in Feb stmt), two pymts rcvd 19 Mar for the entire loan amount, and it currently shows as cancelled in the reports. Can you explain?

The borrower returned the loan funds during the cooling off period (the borrower has 7 days to cancel the loan) but an error meant the account was not cancelled until March (almost 2 months later). As the cancellation was effective Jan it means that the loan would have been on your Feb transaction statement, but not your March. Your transaction statement shows all cash and principal transactions from the commencement of your account. Late reversals or other adjusted transactions may cause the end of month balance to vary from one month to the next.

[kiwi_on_OE]

The borrower returned the loan funds during the cooling off period (the borrower has 7 days to cancel the loan) but an error meant the account was not cancelled until March (almost 2 months later). As the cancellation was effective Jan it means that the loan would have been on your Feb transaction statement, but not your March. Your transaction statement shows all cash and principal transactions from the commencement of your account. Late reversals or other adjusted transactions may cause the end of month balance to vary from one month to the next.

Thx Dan

Have I got this right, 1) Harmoney didn't record the cancellation when it should have, 2) Harmoney recorded receipt of a payment (Feb) from the borrower that it didn't actually receive (or did the borrower actually make the payment), 3) Harmoney had my money for almost two months without returning it to me, 4) Harmoney retrospectively changes transactions rather than adding a correcting transaction on the date errors are fixed.

What compensation is Harmoney paying to investors in this loan for the almost two months they didn't have access to their money?

[Dan@Harmoney]

Thx Dan

Have I got this right, 1) Harmoney didn't record the cancellation when it should have, 2) Harmoney recorded receipt of a payment (Feb) from the borrower that it didn't actually receive (or did the borrower actually make the payment), 3) Harmoney had my money for almost two months without returning it to me, 4) Harmoney retrospectively changes transactions rather than adding a correcting transaction on the date errors are fixed.

What compensation is Harmoney paying to investors in this loan for the almost two months they didn't have access to their money?

The cancellation and full repayment was backdated to the date it was received (but not correctly allocated) on the borrower account. The transaction on the statement will be on that date.

[Saamee]

The cancellation and full repayment was backdated to the date it was received (but not correctly allocated) on the borrower account. The transaction on the statement will be on that date.

Has Kiwi_On_OE got HM stumped for an answer???

[Jinx]

Has Kiwi_On_OE got HM stumped for an answer???
Looks to me like Harmoney found themselves in a sticky situation, then made mistakes trying to resolve the issue & now are not willing to compensate the victims?

[kiwi_on_OE]

The cancellation and full repayment was backdated to the date it was received (but not correctly allocated) on the borrower account. The transaction on the statement will be on that date.

Inadequate

[kiwi_on_OE]

This comment on loan 61342 made me chuckle "...the good thing with Harmoney is they are willing to reduce my rate as long as I can show my loan history is excellent with them over then next 3-6 months.". I won't be investing as either the borrower will fail to make the repayments or it will be re-drawn in a few months with the associated fees.

[emveha]

I now avoid lending to any rewrite for this very reason.

[Harvey Specter]

This comment on loan 61342 made me chuckle "...the good thing with Harmoney is they are willing to reduce my rate as long as I can show my loan history is excellent with them over then next 3-6 months.". I won't be investing as either the borrower will fail to make the repayments or it will be re-drawn in a few months with the associated fees.


I now avoid lending to any rewrite for this very reason.I would have thought you want re-writes as they have shown a good payment history, and re-writen the loan to get a better rate which they will lock in for the term. its those that haven't been re-writen that you have to be careful of as they will be going for a re-write as soon as they can show good payment history as that will secure them a better rate.

Trying to predict those that wont make a payment is impossible in my view.

[Harvey Specter]

Just had another charge off - I am getting absolutely killed at the moment. At this rate, Squirrel with a 8.5% and a guarantee is starting to look good.

[Darchie]

This comment on loan 61342 made me chuckle "...the good thing with Harmoney is they are willing to reduce my rate as long as I can show my loan history is excellent with them over then next 3-6 months.". I won't be investing as either the borrower will fail to make the repayments or it will be re-drawn in a few months with the associated fees.

Their marketing to borrowers seems to have little or no regard to how it hurts their lenders ..

[Darchie]

I now avoid lending to any rewrite for this very reason.
But you could very well be setting yourself up for a much harder hit 2 to 3 months down the track

[Bjauck]

Just had another charge off - I am getting absolutely killed at the moment. At this rate, Squirrel with a 8.5% and a guarantee is starting to look good. It sounds like you have hit a rough patch. Is your gross return over the past 12 months getting close to Squirrel's 8.5%?

[Bjauck]

Thx Dan

Have I got this right, ...2) Harmoney recorded receipt of a payment (Feb) from the borrower that it didn't actually receive (or did the borrower actually make the payment),... I'd like to see what Harmoney's response is to all your reconciliation questions, but especially that one. I would also like to know if Borrower comments are actually read by Harmoney and cross-referenced to details provided by the borrower for consistency.

[Harvey Specter]

It sounds like you have hit a rough patch. Is your gross return over the past 12 months getting close to Squirrel's 8.5%?Not yet but I think I will have more write offs this month than interest - a negative return. Will give an update when they update the RAR.

[Dan@Harmoney]

Inadequate

Always happy to provide more detail. When something like this happens the borrower payment is backdated otherwise there would be interest accrued and owed on the borrower account when this is actually a cancellation in the cooling off period.

In the investors statement we show the cash movement. That means the funds being deployed to the loan on 21/1 and then the cash being returned and principal reduced on 19/3.

This was an edge case and since my last update we have been working automating the fix which should prevent further issues like what was picked up happened here. We have processed over 5 million transactions to date and have had a low number of processing issues. While understandably frustrating be assured our focus is on reducing issues like this happening again to minimise the impact on lenders and borrowers. If you have any further questions I am happy for you to contact me directly at dan@harmoney.co.nz

[Saamee]

Dan \ Monica,

Do you have an ETA for delivery of the End of Financial Year Tax Certificates yet?

[Dan@Harmoney]

Dan \ Monica,

Do you have an ETA for delivery of the End of Financial Year Tax Certificates yet?

Hi, yes they will be available mid May.

[Broke]

Their marketing to borrowers seems to have little or no regard to how it hurts their lenders ..

While true at a glance. At this point, ive just come to trust in the statistics, which i find accurate, hovering at around 11%. If i counted all my defaults and arrears, I'd just get a headache.

[emveha]

Trying to predict those that wont make a payment is impossible in my view.

I totally agree, which is why I am surprised that Harmoney thinks that repayment history during the first months can be a good predictor of future defaults (except for cases of fraud where the borrower had no intent to repay anything from the get go).

According to the statistics (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Performance-Graphs/March16-Update/static-loss-march.png), default rate remains very close to zero during the first 5 months, then takes off (note the discrepancy with Harmony's model, which doesn't predict this flat start on the curve).

What is certain however is that Harmoney has a vested interest in encouraging rewrites (by reducing the borrower's rate). Investors end up paying fees multiple times and with an underestimated default rate.

[kiwi_on_OE]

Always happy to provide more detail. When something like this happens the borrower payment is backdated otherwise there would be interest accrued and owed on the borrower account when this is actually a cancellation in the cooling off period.

In the investors statement we show the cash movement. That means the funds being deployed to the loan on 21/1 and then the cash being returned and principal reduced on 19/3.

This was an edge case and since my last update we have been working automating the fix which should prevent further issues like what was picked up happened here. We have processed over 5 million transactions to date and have had a low number of processing issues. While understandably frustrating be assured our focus is on reducing issues like this happening again to minimise the impact on lenders and borrowers. If you have any further questions I am happy for you to contact me directly at dan@harmoney.co.nz

You have not yet fully answered the questions I originally asked.

[Jinx]

What is certain however is that Harmoney has a vested interest in encouraging rewrites (by reducing the borrower's rate). Investors end up paying fees multiple times and with an underestimated default rate.

This seems to be a recurring theme.

[kiwi_on_OE]

This seems to be a recurring theme.

I reckon the FMA wouldn't be too keen on Harmoney encouraging rewrites and earning fees from them.

[Saamee]

Dan \ Monica,

Is Harmoney working on an Android Mobile Phone App at all yet??

[Harvey Specter]

Dan \ Monica,

Is Harmoney working on an Android Mobile Phone App at all yet??Do you need an app? Their website is optimised for Mobile, though I think there are a few extra clicks required to go through the menus.

[humvee]

Dan \ Monica,

Is Harmoney working on an Android Mobile Phone App at all yet??

I use the harmoney site ALOT from android devices both cellphones and tablets And it works well - but there are tricks to make is work well.

1) I install and use Chrome Browser
2) the default mobile site is a pain to use -instead use the "request desktop site" feature from the menu and use the full site. On the tablet its just like using in on a desktop. On the cell phone i do zoom in and out a bit but again it works just link the normal desktop site

[mjplost]

My cash available has gone down twice in the past two days and I haven't used any of the money for notes... anyone know why this is happening? Both money available and interest have decreased (by $2 or so)

[Knot]

There was an rwt correction last night to fix some investors they hadn't correctly taken rwt from for an 8 day period. My rwt was out by a couple of dollars. It is now correct. I suspect they did it twice because the amount out changed a couple of days ago and then again last night.

[unhuman]

Article sourcing this thread re fraud (behind paywall):

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/harmoney-loans-hit-fraud-th-p-187601

[mjplost]

Article sourcing this thread re fraud (behind paywall):

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/harmoney-loans-hit-fraud-th-p-187601

Can you post the article? I dont want to get a 30 day subscription.

[Saamee]

Dan \ Monica,

Is Harmoney working on an Android Mobile Phone App at all yet??

Maybe Dan & Monica have taking a Holiday... !!! No Reply yet :)

[Wsp]

http://www.newshub.co.nz/business/harmoney-hit-by-sophisticated-fraudsters-2016041518#axzz45yokFQLq

[Baa_Baa]

http://www.newshub.co.nz/business/harmoney-hit-by-sophisticated-fraudsters-2016041518#axzz45yokFQLq

The fraud can't be all that "sophisticated" if the fraudsters are getting caught, unless the frauds are so sophisticated that there is a lot more fraud going on, than is claimed to be known.

So as unsecured lenders to a platform that has been subject to fraud, do you get your 'written off loans' back? And, it is reported as ID theft to enable the fraud, do you get your ID back from the fraudster, or how can you be sure your ID details haven't been sold or used elsewhere? Hmm.

Hopefully Harmoney come out with a full and frank disclosure. This may also be a warning shot across the bows for other platforms as well.

[CR111]

Hi CR111

Were any of your 6 loan ID's different to my 9? I want to know how big this is?

Hi Humvee, Sorry, I haven't been on here since that post.

Yes, my six loans were all included in the nine you listed.

[CR111]

I've just been smashed with charge offs this month. Far worse than any other month since I started a year ago.

[Cool Bear]

I've just been smashed with charge offs this month. Far worse than any other month since I started a year ago.
me too... 15 write offs in 30 days!! that doubles the other 15 written off from June last year to 20th March.

[Knot]

Stuff posting about the fraud now. http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/79091489/Harmoney-lenders-expected-to-pick-up-tab-for-fraudulent-loans

[kiwi_on_OE]

Stuff posting about the fraud now. http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/79091489/Harmoney-lenders-expected-to-pick-up-tab-for-fraudulent-loans

I note Neil Roberts quote ""In all 26 cases, the New Zealand Police were notified. In every case, arrests were made and charges laid. All cases have been before the courts...". In light of this I find it interesting that these particular loans have been written-off. Does that mean the money has gone offshore to somewhere it can't be recovered from? I hope the people will be bankrupted, if they aren't already, just a shame that there is no money to recover. Also surprising/impressive that Harmoney already know there is nothing to recover.

Have any investors in these loans received an email from Harmoney about it? I haven't seen anything within the website. I'm a bit disappointed with the lack of communication/openness from Harmoney.

Am I being a bit negative about Harmoney? Or are they bringing it on themselves?

[emveha]

I would be curious if anyone with lots of write-off notice a pattern of more frequent rewritten loans among them. I see lots of rewrites being allowed to double their borrowed amount after as low as 4 successful payments (when almost all write-offs will happen past the 6 months mark).

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

I would be curious if anyone with lots of write-off notice a pattern of more frequent rewritten loans among them. I see lots of rewrites being allowed to double their borrowed amount after as low as 4 successful payments (when almost all write-offs will happen past the 6 months mark).

4 rewrite defaults out of 70 defaults.

I thought charge off was an accounting term for 6 months non payment. Maybe allows you to move things around on your balance sheet if your a company etc..

[Darchie]

I've just had my first rewritten type loan charged off.. ... Loan 32550 which showed 6 successful payments when i invested into it ... now I've tried to get info from HM if that is infact 6 months of successful on time payments or JUST 6 successful payments .. Huge difference in my view, as yet, have not had any confirmation either way! I felt it was a question that was being avoided.

[Saamee]

Maybe Dan & Monica have taking a Holiday... !!! No Reply yet :)


OK OK - Dan & Monica have 'Gone to Ground'.... 3rd time of asking ( 1 week ) and no replies!!

No other contact here from the pair in 7 days !

[Saamee]

Dan \ Monica,

Is Harmoney working on an Android Mobile Phone App at all yet??


OK OK - Dan & Monica have 'Gone to Ground'.... 3rd time of asking ( 1 week ) and no replies!!

No other contact here from the pair in 7 days !

[Kelvin]

Saw this loan which the borrower has $20,000 income a month (after tax!) yet they're borrowing $25,000 to go to the dentist!!
7989

I am losing trust in their system these days with all this fraud, rewrites and write-offs. Yesterday I got an A5 loan written off! I do understand the risk of P2P lending but feel Harmoney could do better with investor communication, and looking into loans that seem ridiculous like the one above.

[Kelvin]

The A5 loan I had written off was LAI-00011174 (https://investor.harmoney.com/)

Maybe Dan@Harmoney can provide more detail on why this was written off? I can see that you've been online very recently!

Feel like taking money out of the platform if things don't improve

[Finite]

The A5 loan I had written off was LAI-00011174 (https://investor.harmoney.com/)

Maybe Dan@Harmoney can provide more detail on why this was written off? I can see that you've been online very recently!

Feel like taking money out of the platform if things don't improve

I'm already taking my money out.
2 reasons - lack of secondary market and fees charged on rewrites.

[emveha]

It's not that bad though. They've been quite good so far in answering us (ping Dan@Harmoney).

I'm seeing a lot of "Holiday expenses" loans today, I would have thought that was a bit out of season?

MVA

[Dan@Harmoney]

The A5 loan I had written off was LAI-00011174 (https://investor.harmoney.com/)

Maybe Dan@Harmoney can provide more detail on why this was written off? I can see that you've been online very recently!

Feel like taking money out of the platform if things don't improve

Hi, You can contact me directly at dan@harmoney.co.nz if you want to communicate about a specific loan. Thanks

[Dan@Harmoney]

Dan \ Monica,

Is Harmoney working on an Android Mobile Phone App at all yet??

Hi, We are actively exploring mobile apps but our primary focus is on reinforcing the mobile experience around mobile web. Thanks.

[Knot]

RAR has been updated. 15.37% for me, up on last month.

[Cool Bear]

RAR has been updated. 15.37% for me, up on last month.
thanks for the notification. you are doing well with your loans. I had been hammered the last 30 days. RAR now 13.62% a drop of more than 1% from last month!

[Kelvin]

Mine 12.99%, down from just under 16%!

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

14.67% according to harmoney rar.

However why not just calculate your self by using google docs.

That way you can have the tax paid number which 11.65% in my case.

Create a google sheet.

One column the date you made deposit to harmoney and amount as negative number.


=now() is excel function for todays date

grab the details from harmoneys account balance screen and use the forumula below xirr.




27/01/2015

-800



29/01/2015

-800





=now()

cash+fundingbalance+outstandintprincial from harmoney account postion page






=XIRR(b1:b3,a1:B3)

gives you a compounding interest rate taking into account variable deposits over time.


Maybe somebody who knows more can comment ?

[Harvey Specter]

Mine 12.99%, down from just under 16%!Talk about revision to the mean. My RAR is now 13.1% (down from 13.6%ish ?)which is just 0.05% above the retail RAR.

[Cool Bear]

Talk about revision to the mean. My RAR is now 13.1% (down from 13.6%ish ?)which is just 0.05% above the retail RAR.
On a positive note, 13+% is still a decent return.

[Harvey Specter]

On a positive note, 13+% is still a decent return.
Yip. More than three times the bank.

But if the mean rar decreases, then does that mean my returns will too.

[WingingIt]

Had my RAR drop in the last month from over 15% to 13.03% across 73 loans. Two charged off loans both of which made no payments

[WingingIt]

Is anyone else sick of the almost lender blaming tone Harmoney has been using whenever they're trying to defend themselves in regard to charged off and defaulted loans? I'm constantly seeing on here 'theyre only x% of y and so on' and then in that stuff article 'were enjoying an "unbelievable" return of 13 per cent, even after all bad loans, including fraudulent ones.' It seems like we need to feel guilty about earning 13%.

[kiwi_on_OE]

Is anyone else sick of the almost lender blaming tone Harmoney has been using whenever they're trying to defend themselves in regard to charged off and defaulted loans? I'm constantly seeing on here 'theyre only x% of y and so on' and then in that stuff article 'were enjoying an "unbelievable" return of 13 per cent, even after all bad loans, including fraudulent ones.' It seems like we need to feel guilty about earning 13%.

I am frustrated with their spin, lack of transparency/openness, desire to shut down/avoid discussion etc. They seem to have adopted "big corporate" practises.

[permutation]

My Rar has increased to 14.15%. Have been investing less recently, have found it a bit boring sifting through the loans. Have had heaps of repayments, so I just peel off the odd hundy for spending money.

Happy with my return, have only had 4 loans charged off from about 500 original loans over 13 months.

Might get a bit more interested when the weather becomes inclement.

[PennyPicker]

But if the mean rar decreases, then does that mean my returns will too.

It's really the other way around isn't it? The mean RAR is derived from all of the lenders, that includes you. So if yours increases or decreases that will be born out in Harmoney's mean RAR. But of course you're only one of many lenders, it's quite possible your RAR will move differently to Harmoneys, both in speed and direction.

[Bjauck]

I see the Harmoney platform RAR increased from 11.66% to 11.83%. Presumably, despite the fraud cases covered by the media and affecting posters on this thread, that means that their charge-off rates are still within their forecast delinquency rates per grade?

[PennyPicker]

My reading is that too much attention is being paid to micro movements in the RAR each month. It will fluctuate based on write-offs and arrears (money lapsed or paid) and that's normal and to be expected. There's more value in identifying your RAR trend over time than looking at is as a number.

We've been provided with a peek behind the loan curtain that the banks have traditionally held. And now we're allowed back here we're whinging about arrears payments, write-offs, re-writes and fraud when these are a normal part of lending money to humans.

The return is very very good compared to many stocks and definitely bank interest rates. But what many people on this thread seem to have forgotten is that the higher the return, the higher the risk. Many here seem to expect high returns without any risk, like this is some sort of gamified savings account with colourful backstories.

[Harvey Specter]

It's really the other way around isn't it? The mean RAR is derived from all of the lenders, that includes you. So if yours increases or decreases that will be born out in Harmoney's mean RAR. But of course you're only one of many lenders, it's quite possible your RAR will move differently to Harmoneys, both in speed and direction.Is the 3rd and 4th graph - more the 4th really - on this page https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics that I am refering too. It seems regardless of strategy (high or low risk) the more loans you have, your return just reverts to the mean. So maybe if you are only investing a little bit, being selective may make a difference but if you are investing 10s of thousands, just take whats there. An auto invest whenever you have more than $25 would be the best option is they provided it.

[Cool Bear]

Is the 3rd and 4th graph - more the 4th really - on this page https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics that I am refering too. It seems regardless of strategy (high or low risk) the more loans you have, your return just reverts to the mean. So maybe if you are only investing a little bit, being selective may make a difference but if you are investing 10s of thousands, just take whats there. An auto invest whenever you have more than $25 would be the best option is they provided it.
You are right. It is like investing in the stock market. Every one try to beat the index but the index is the sum average of everyone's performance.

Harmoney RAR is that sum average.

I think I have a wonderful set of criteria for choosing loans. But everyone else investing in Harmoney think the same too. So, all our individual RARs will much depends on Harmoney RAR with in turn is largely affected by the interest rate they set and the number of defaults in the end. So, their system of approving of loans and assigning of grades to each borrower (thereby setting the interest rate) is the most important factor in all our performances.

So, those investors that have just a few hundred loans may have RARs that are much greater or lower, but if you have 1000's of loans, it will be hard to be very different from that mean.

[Cool Bear]

You are right. It is like investing in the stock market. Every one try to beat the index but the index is the sum average of everyone's performance.

Harmoney RAR is that sum average.

I think I have a wonderful set of criteria for choosing loans. But everyone else investing in Harmoney think the same too. So, all our individual RARs will much depends on Harmoney RAR with in turn is largely affected by the interest rate they set and the number of defaults in the end. So, their system of approving of loans and assigning of grades to each borrower (thereby setting the interest rate) is the most important factor in all our performances.

So, those investors that have just a few hundred loans may have RARs that are much greater or lower, but if you have 1000's of loans, it will be hard to be very different from that mean.

And it does seem that everyone with more than 1600 loans perform slightly better than the platform RAR, even if the difference is not that much.

[Harvey Specter]

And it does seem that everyone with more than 1600 loans perform slightly better than the platform RAR, even if the difference is not that much.The platform RAR is lower than the retail rar so it actually looks about right.

I guess mypoint is there doesn't appear to be a divergence between a low risk and high risk strategy. YOu could say this means Harmoney has got their ratings right but we will only see this once we hav gone through a whole business cycle. If the high risk ones are only performing as well as the low risk ones now, accounting for write offs, then what will happen in a recession? will the modeling still work or will the Es and Fs be impacted proportionately more. I would expect high risk to pay of in good times (now) but perform worse during bad times. That doesn't seem to be he case so I will probably start evening up my loan profile.

[Cool Bear]

The platform RAR is lower than the retail rar so it actually looks about right.

I guess mypoint is there doesn't appear to be a divergence between a low risk and high risk strategy. YOu could say this means Harmoney has got their ratings right but we will only see this once we hav gone through a whole business cycle. If the high risk ones are only performing as well as the low risk ones now, accounting for write offs, then what will happen in a recession? will the modeling still work or will the Es and Fs be impacted proportionately more. I would expect high risk to pay of in good times (now) but perform worse during bad times. That doesn't seem to be he case so I will probably start evening up my loan profile.
I think so too that EF will be hit more in bad times and perform better in good compared to AB

Almost 90% of my defaults are in E and F but in terms of returns they are still better than my loans in A and B. I guess that much as we know that high rewards comes with high risks, we are still bothered emotionally with defaults.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Has anybody done any rough calcuations on loan values at end of term for unit of $25.

I get this (but i might be wrong)

A1 60 months full survival is worth $5.28 after 17.5 tax and fees etc

GrossInterest 6.8929502163808039
PlatformFee 0.39866187770476019
RwtTax 1.2062662878666413


f5 60 months is $27.12
Gross Interest 33.76745875
PlateFormFee 0.734593234
RwtTax 5.909305281

[humvee]

How has someone made a -140% return?

7990

[Cool Bear]

How has someone made a -140% return?

7990
Wow, my first thought is how can you lose more than 100%. Then looking at the graph, he is only in for about 245 days. So must have lost over 90% of his money and when that is annualised, becomes 140%.

[permutation]

Has anyone noticed that the platform Rars were last updated 19 March. Wonder what the April Rars are?

[tim23]

Anyone think they will seek NZX listing, HNZ & TME hold stakes might be looking to see down at some stage?

[Knot]

It would appear they forgot to renew their website ssl cert. Not a good look for an Internet based Company, or there is a man in the middle attack going on.

7995

[Jinx]

It would appear they forgot to renew their website ssl cert. Not a good look for an Internet based Company, or there is a man in the middle attack going on.

7995


Lets hope hackers have nothing to do with it.

Very poor for an internet based company.

[Wsp]

Payment protect was mentioned late last year with the expectation that it would be launched for retail investors in the early new year but we don't seem to have heard anything about it lately. I presume this may mean they are having problems with it. https://www.harmoney.co.nz/payment-protect/coming-soon

[Kelvin]

I don't think they mention what happens on the investor side when a borrower makes a Payment Protect claim.

i.e. when a payment is waived due to redundancy are the payments written off or covered by insurance? Hope they have good fraud and document checks when a borrower makes a claim.

[kiwi_on_OE]

Loan 62648, monthly borrower income 307k, loan amount 2875, grade D. This is wrong in so many ways. I think I can state categorically state that the borrower doesn't have that income, so how did it get into the system? Borrower entered it and Harmoney has "confirmed" it some how? Harmoney have entered the real income incorrectly and the system doesn't have any sanity checks? I'm also guessing that Harmoney do their loan grading external to the website, as I can't imagine any way that this borrower would get a grade of D if they really wanted to borrow money. The loan is 95% filled, I think those people will have a legitimate reason to complain if this loan fails and it written off.

[Broke]

Loan 62648, monthly borrower income 307k, loan amount 2875, grade D. This is wrong in so many ways. I think I can state categorically state that the borrower doesn't have that income, so how did it get into the system? Borrower entered it and Harmoney has "confirmed" it some how? Harmoney have entered the real income incorrectly and the system doesn't have any sanity checks? I'm also guessing that Harmoney do their loan grading external to the website, as I can't imagine any way that this borrower would get a grade of D if they really wanted to borrow money. The loan is 95% filled, I think those people will have a legitimate reason to complain if this loan fails and it written off.


I think its a typo.. Ive seen these outrageous incomes before, given it doesnt happen that often.. I think the real income is around $3000

[Darchie]

Yeah seen a few incomes that do smack, as mistakes...
Hey nice to see the figures of amt applied for, along with term showing again on reports...

[Kelvin]

I think such mistakes are completely unacceptable on this kind of website.

Harmoney need to get borrower details right, as they are used to determine credit eligibility and presented to investors who will be lending thousands of $ to them.

[PennyPicker]

Hi guys. I've been tinkering over the last week with a website that helps show your Harmoney loan information in a unique way.

It's a simple matter of Exporting your loan information from Harmoney (Dashboard -> Reports -> Export) and uploading the loans.csv file provided by Harmoney.

Note: There is no lender information in the exported loan report. It does contain the loan Id, but these are readily accessible by any member of the site.

The graph shows your loans along a LoanId timeline, with the Y axis representing Outstanding Principal. You can show all, or filter by Status; Current, Charged Off, Arrears, Paid Off and Cancelled.

The site is reasonably functional now so you're welcome to use it at the following url; http://precis.azurewebsites.net/

8003

(I have a neat new feature that I'll be working on over the weekend.)

[Jinx]

Hi guys. I've been tinkering over the last week with a website that helps show your Harmoney loan information in a unique way.

It's a simple matter of Exporting your loan information from Harmoney (Dashboard -> Reports -> Export) and uploading the loans.csv file provided by Harmoney.

Note: There is no lender information in the exported loan report. It does contain the loan Id, but these are readily accessible by any member of the site.

The graph shows your loans along a LoanId timeline, with the Y axis representing Outstanding Principal. You can show all, or filter by Status; Current, Charged Off, Arrears, Paid Off and Cancelled.

The site is reasonably functional now so you're welcome to use it at the following url; http://precis.azurewebsites.net/

8003

(I have a neat new feature that I'll be working on over the weekend.)

This seems like a really well made site with some excellent features!
When I tried to upload my file I get the error: Error has occurred: Could not find part of the path

[PennyPicker]

Thanks Jinx, I hope it's of use to people.


When I tried to upload my file I get the error: Error has occurred: Could not find part of the path
I have just pushed a fix for that bug. Please try again.

[Jinx]

Thanks Jinx, I hope it's of use to people.


I have just pushed a fix for that bug. Please try again.

Yep fixed now :)

[Knot]

Useful graph, at least to me. I'll have to do a similar graph for my harmoney investment tracker. I noticed it doesn't seem to work in Firefox, fine in IE/Edge and Chrome though.

[babymonster]

Looks like not many ppl wanting loan recently at harmoney

[Kees]

Looks like not many ppl wanting loan recently at harmoney

They are getting filled very quickly just got to go on the site more often.

[Darchie]

I'd noticed since that big fraud mishap ... Harmoneys loan listings had seemed to slow down quite considerably. My thoughts were maybe not quite as many were making the cut!

[Broke]

there was over 15+ loans on thursday, but they got snapped up quite fast

[mlt322]

It's pretty quiet for a Saturday. I usually find that the weekends are quite busy with people buying cars etc. Have been on three times today and......nothing. maybe a question for Harmoney to answer. Is this just a coincidence or are Harmoney being a bit more selective since the fraud case as suggested by Darchie (which cost me 100-bucks by the way).

[mlt322]

Precis
Hi guys. I've been tinkering over the last week with a website that helps show your Harmoney loan information in a unique way.



Great site PennyPicker. Thanks for making that available to us all. It's really good at showing trends which will influence how I invest going forward.

[Knot]

First thing this morning there were 2, at around 1pm there was about 11 (I think, didn't actually count them all), now there are 0.

It does appear that there are less loans on offer, but they are coming through, you just have to check often enough.

I didn't lose anything in the ones that were listed in the recent fraud, but I did have 2 notes in one that never made a payment around the same time which have now been written off. I have to wonder if Harmoney has become a target for ID fraud criminals?

I get crap happens, written off loans is part of doing business with such a high return, the problem I have is that there is little (read no) communication to investors about a loan that is written off, eg Why was it written off? etc

[Finite]

The shortage of loans is getting me concerned - the product does not really seem to be taking off with borrowers.
Harmoney will also be concerned and be considering dropping their credit criteria to let more lower ranked borrowers in.
This is the problem with this whole model - it's not Harmoneys money at stake.

[JohnMac]

The shortage of loans is getting me concerned - the product does not really seem to be taking off with borrowers.
Harmoney will also be concerned and be considering dropping their credit criteria to let more lower ranked borrowers in.
This is the problem with this whole model - it's not Harmoneys money at stake.
Fortunately I have only had 2 loans default both of which I had only contributed $25 each thank goodness. But one of the loans was for $25675 which means a lot of investors got stung. It was a 'D2' category loan but I would have though they would not have lent such a large amount to a D2 category borrower. I have another one which is a A1 category loan where I have contributed $500. The borrower appears to have only paid 2 installments since September so waiting to take a big hit on this one.

[humvee]

" BORROWER DETAILS

BORROWER COMMENTS
Purchase a 2003 Mazda MX8 - can offer this as security onto this loan. I already have my van as security on this loan."

I thought all harmoney loans were unsecured - if so this tends to say that harmoney is not doing even the most basic of fact checking on comments. Not even checking for outright lies that impact fundementally on how good/safe the loan is

[Kees]

" BORROWER DETAILS

BORROWER COMMENTS
Purchase a 2003 Mazda MX8 - can offer this as security onto this loan. I already have my van as security on this loan."

I thought all harmoney loans were unsecured - if so this tends to say that harmoney is not doing even the most basic of fact checking on comments. Not even checking for outright lies that impact fundementally on how good/safe the loan is

Lots of punters dont seem to mind its 90% full so what's your point I would say punters beware.
I personally would not punt on this sort of loan but they tell the story so you can make up your own mind.

[Broke]

sometimes, putting more than $100 into a single loan is asking to be burned. If it defaults, thats a months earnings right there.. i've always tried to keep myself put just 25$. It may take months or years but just gotta stick to that habit.

I always try to resist the temptation.. Cant really expect Harmoney to be 100% default-free.. Even your brick-and-mortar banks get defaults.. I love the service Harmoney offers, otherwise my money will be sitting in Trust funds.. Its another good addition to a portfolio

And quite an interesting concept from a banking standpoint

[kiwi_on_OE]

I didn't lose anything in the ones that were listed in the recent fraud, but I did have 2 notes in one that never made a payment around the same time which have now been written off. I have to wonder if Harmoney has become a target for ID fraud criminals?

I get crap happens, written off loans is part of doing business with such a high return, the problem I have is that there is little (read no) communication to investors about a loan that is written off, eg Why was it written off? etc

Yeah, I would have thought the communication to investors, particularly on the fraudulent loans, but arguably on any that get written off would be nice. Even if once a month or something. Letting us know a bit about the steps that have been taken, and/or why it was written off.

Even the recent frauds, people have been arrested, so they must be in NZ. I wondered why they were written off so quickly. But nothing from Harmoney. Not a proactive company.

[Bjauck]

Lots of punters dont seem to mind its 90% full so what's your point I would say punters beware.
I personally would not punt on this sort of loan but they tell the story so you can make up your own mind. Was that loan successful in the end? If the borrower comments claimed the loan was secured and it actually is not, it sounds like an issue of misrepresentation. Should Harmoney actually pay out the funds to the borrower in that case?

[Kees]

Was that loan successful in the end? If the borrower comments claimed the loan was secured and it actually is not, it sounds like an issue of misrepresentation. Should Harmoney actually pay out the funds to the borrower in that case?

It got filled but it could still be rejected . I have lately noticed that some loans get rejected after being filled and the money returned to my account
for further investing in new loans .
some good loans this morning A & B's they will fill quick.

[Harvey Specter]

It got filled but it could still be rejected . I have lately noticed that some loans get rejected after being filled and the money returned to my account
for further investing in new loans .
On Sunday, my balance increased for $2 to 27, to 52, to 77 to 102, I assume as loans I had invested in were being rejected or turned down.

[777]

On Sunday, my balance increased for $2 to 27, to 52, to 77 to 102, I assume as loans I had invested in were being rejected or turned down.

Or repaid.

[CR111]

some good loans this morning A & B's they will fill quick.

Interesting the different ideas people have. I am very reluctant to pick up the A and B loans. I'm much more interested in choosing the C and D loans. I have also noticed that the F loans seem to be filled up very quickly.

[Kees]

Interesting the different ideas people have. I am very reluctant to pick up the A and B loans. I'm much more interested in choosing the C and D loans. I have also noticed that the F loans seem to be filled up very quickly.

yes I prefer the A & B's have a few C's but my return is above 12% and happy with that, have not had any defaults etc so all good.

[CR111]

I've had 39 "charged off", but more than happy with my overall return. A third of those charged off never made a single payment. I assume they never had any intention to do so. The only thing that bothers me is the lack of communication from Harmoney regarding what is happening with those 39 clients. Are we to believe Harmoney have not been able to squeeze a single cent out of 39 clients who stopped paying?

[Bjauck]

I've had 39 "charged off", but more than happy with my overall return. A third of those charged off never made a single payment. I assume they never had any intention to do so. The only thing that bothers me is the lack of communication from Harmoney regarding what is happening with those 39 clients. Are we to believe Harmoney have not been able to squeeze a single cent out of 39 clients who stopped paying? As long as the Harmoney charge-off rates are within their forecast, perhaps Harmoney would not be particularly motivated to put in extra effort to chase payments. If the delinquency rate became worse and started to deter investors from investing, I imagine there would be more motivation for Harmoney to pursue the charged-off borrowers.

[PennyPicker]

Hi guys, just a quick update on Precis (http://precis.azurewebsites.net/); I've fixed the issue that might have been preventing Firefox users from uploading their loan statement.

If your loans generate a difficult to read cluster of nodes you can zoom into this region by left clicking and dragging a region over the nodes in question. Click the upper right button "Reset Zoom" to return to normal.
Also, you can deselect particular loans by clicking on the legend to the right, i.e. if you only want to see loans in arrears de select the other status types.

8019

[Darchie]

Yet another income that smacks of error! Loan # 6326 ... 13,000 after tax per month ... somehow doubt it... it's an entry that SHOULD BE CORRECT!

[Soolaimon]

Yet another income that smacks of error! Loan # 6326 ... 13,000 after tax per month ... somehow doubt it... it's an entry that SHOULD BE CORRECT!

Yep I agree, too many of these "errors". Only reinvesting paid offs now. Not increasing investments for now.

[Kelvin]

Also agreed, yesterday saw a rewrite loan with $900 monthly repayments with $1600 monthly income.

Another D1 loan this morning with 14k income per month borrowing 25k for a tax bill.

[Monica@Harmoney]

Yet another income that smacks of error! Loan # 6326 ... 13,000 after tax per month ... somehow doubt it... it's an entry that SHOULD BE CORRECT!

Darchie, please email me on monica.mathis@harmoney.co.nz so we can look into this. I cannot give out any information or check on an individual account on this thread. We cannot find number 6326 - please check number and email me. Cheers Monica

[Darchie]

Darchie, please email me on monica.mathis@harmoney.co.nz so we can look into this. I cannot give out any information or check on an individual account on this thread. We cannot find number 6326 - please check number and email me. Cheers Monica

Thats classic as i too let a typo through! LAI-00063206

[Kelvin]

Loan
LAI*00063256 (https://investor.harmoney.com/) (and my money) has been stuck in funding with 7 notes remaining for the whole weekend now...

[Stevo]

I invested in it to move it along, but nothing happened, still stuck at seven notes. Wonder if Harmoney has frozen it because it's a dodgy borrower?

[Kelvin]

Seems like the funds have been removed from "in funding" and returned to my account. The loan has been fully funded though.

Must have been a case where I put an order in for that loan when it had already been fully funded, but the system got stuck on 7 notes left and hadn't been updated to reflect it's fully funded status.

[Stevo]

Sometimes I question how robust Harmoney is with their credit checking process e.g. loan LAI*00063321 where someone aged 20-29 is getting supposedly getting $2,639.00 per month after tax in superannuation. Doesn't sound right. Anyone know how Harmoney does their credit checking?

[kiwi_on_OE]

Sometimes I question how robust Harmoney is with their credit checking process e.g. loan LAI*00063321 where someone aged 20-29 is getting supposedly getting $2,639.00 per month after tax in superannuation. Doesn't sound right. Anyone know how Harmoney does their credit checking?

I was gong to mention exactly the same. Not credit checking just a lack of cross checking on the data. I'm assuming the Govt Super is wrong, but not going to invest in it. Makes me wonder about the 44% that have invested.

I was also going to query loan 63299, Grade A2, but they're renting. I don't think I've ever seen an A or a B that is renting. But it is a rewrite after 3 months so maybe they go up in Harmoney's ranknings if they've been a successful borrower.

[Saamee]

Always one eye watching P2P overseas - It's not NZ and maybe not regulated the same..... worth a read

ihttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-09/p2p-bubble-bursts-lendingclub-stock-plummets-25-after-ceo-resigns-internal-loan-revi

[Stevo]

I was gong to mention exactly the same. Not credit checking just a lack of cross checking on the data. I'm assuming the Govt Super is wrong, but not going to invest in it. Makes me wonder about the 44% that have invested.

I was also going to query loan 63299, Grade A2, but they're renting. I don't think I've ever seen an A or a B that is renting. But it is a rewrite after 3 months so maybe they go up in Harmoney's ranknings if they've been a successful borrower.

Renting in CHCH is probably quite common. And a married, double-income couple who've stayed for a while in the same place sounds like a safe investment.

This is the thing that worries me about Harmoney's fast and easy approach to giving out loans:

"Borrowers may understate their expenses or liabilities, or overstate their income. In such cases, they may be unable to afford to repay a loan and default on their obligations. It may also mean that Harmoney assigns a risk grade which does not accurately reflect the borrower’s risk."

I get it that Harmoney is attractive to borrowers because it's easy to get a loan, but it seems too relaxed if people can just type in any numbers to "overstate" incomes.

[mjplost]

I get it that Harmoney is attractive to borrowers because it's easy to get a loan, but it seems too relaxed if people can just type in any numbers to "overstate" incomes.

I was under the impression that Harmoney looked at bank balances to verify?

[humvee]

have any of the harmoney fraud cases made the media or court notices yet? If so could some one post links. Ive only seen one article which mostly just referenced this thread.

Have any of the accused appeared before court yet? and were they convicted?

[artemis]

People might be interested in this very recent thread - a property investor in need of a quick $20k who applied to both Harmoney and Squirrel.

http://www.propertytalk.com/forum/showthread.php?39999-A-tale-of-two-platforms

[Stevo]

I was under the impression that Harmoney looked at bank balances to verify?

Can't tell much from a bank balance. Surely it's not too much to ask for a borrower to provide a one month PDF bank statement? It'd be easy to see if a borrower was "overstating" income after a quick look.

[Wsp]

I believe they look at bank transactions over a 3 month period (incomings and outgoings). This is usually done on an automated basis. I believe most of the issues that we are seeing are due to this unrefined automatic process. The addition if some simple logic would help.this would catch unrealistic incomes and also 20-29 year olds listed as having their income as govt superannuation.

[kiwi_on_OE]

have any of the harmoney fraud cases made the media or court notices yet? If so could some one post links. Ive only seen one article which mostly just referenced this thread.

Have any of the accused appeared before court yet? and were they convicted?

I doubt the media will find out if any cases make it to court. I can't see Harmoney advertising it.

Was anyone surprised that Harmoney didn't include links to the media coverage of the fraud in their monthly newsletter?

[Harvey Specter]

I believe they look at bank transactions over a 3 month period (incomings and outgoings). That was my understanding too. If you had done a lot of overtime, that would skew the results.

[Saamee]

I've been with Harmoney for 9 months now... I know others have already been with them for over 1 year.

I've now witnessed a few 'Write Offs' as well as bad payment history loans too.

Question 1: Do I feel like a 'Valued Investor Client'? - Answer 1: NO

Question 2: Why not? - Answer 2: Lack of personal ( 1 on 1 ) Contact \ Communications regarding when Harmoney Loans go bad.

Question 3: What am I doing about it? - Answer 3: I have not invested fresh money in over 3 months. Also I have not reinvested my existing money ( = Interest & Principle payments ) for over 3 months now. Every cent I can get I am removing from Harmoney.

Question 4: So where is your Fresh money going now? - Answer 4: Over to Lending Crowd.

I would be interested to know what other Investor strategy's are at this time with Harmoney???

[Stevo]

I've been with Harmoney for 9 months now... I know others have already been with them for over 1 year.

I've now witnessed a few 'Write Offs' as well as bad payment history loans too.

Question 1: Do I feel like a 'Valued Investor Client'? - Answer 1: NO

Question 2: Why not? - Answer 2: Lack of personal ( 1 on 1 ) Contact \ Communications regarding when Harmoney Loans go bad.

Question 3: What am I doing about it? - Answer 3: I have not invested fresh money in over 3 months. Also I have not reinvested my existing money ( = Interest & Principle payments ) for over 3 months now. Every cent I can get I am removing from Harmoney.

Question 4: So where is your Fresh money going now? - Answer 4: Over to Lending Crowd.

I would be interested to know what other Investor strategy's are at this time with Harmoney???

What's your experience with arrears?

I exported Harmoney's latest spreadsheet and sorted loans by date of investment vs. interest paid. My dashboard says I've got $0.00 in arrears. But the spreadsheet data shows only 27% have paid by the first due date, even though I allowed for four days grace to clear transactions. The sheet says the next payment (i.e. the first payment) is now due two months from when the loan was issued.

A clear 73% have made no payments. This is from my first batch of 22 loans, ranging from grades A1 to F3. I've since invested $13k over the last month.

Harmoney's bookkeeping doesn't seem to be that flash. Do they sort themselves out over time, or have you not kept track of actual vs. reported arrears?

[Dan@Harmoney]

What's your experience with arrears?

I exported Harmoney's latest spreadsheet and sorted loans by date of investment vs. interest paid. My dashboard says I've got $0.00 in arrears. But the spreadsheet data shows only 27% have paid by the first due date, even though I allowed for four days grace to clear transactions. The sheet says the next payment (i.e. the first payment) is now due two months from when the loan was issued.

A clear 73% have made no payments. This is from my first batch of 22 loans, ranging from grades A1 to F3. I've since invested $13k over the last month.

Harmoney's bookkeeping doesn't seem to be that flash. Do they sort themselves out over time, or have you not kept track of actual vs. reported arrears?

Hi Stevo, If you email me directly with the details we will take a look at it for you. dan@harmoney.co.nz

[Harvey Specter]

I've been with Harmoney for 9 months now... I know others have already been with them for over 1 year.

I've now witnessed a few 'Write Offs' as well as bad payment history loans too.

Question 1: Do I feel like a 'Valued Investor Client'? - Answer 1: NO

Question 2: Why not? - Answer 2: Lack of personal ( 1 on 1 ) Contact \ Communications regarding when Harmoney Loans go bad.You do realise that this is an online, low service, low margin business. You are investing $25 in a loan and you want a call whenever something happens? Sure you may have invested in 1000 loans and therefore $25k but I think people are getting to bogged down in the individual loans and not in the big picture.

Rather than complaining about lack of personal service (how much would that cost!), you should be complaining about discrepancies in info (which people on this forum are) and the lack of automation. My question:

Q1 - why cant I set criteria (ie. B-E 36m) and have money auto invested whenever i have more than $25 in my account. I have to log in multiple times a day just to ensure my money is working hard. I should be able to choose any of my filters as an auto invest.

[Saamee]

You do realise that this is an online, low service, low margin business. You are investing $25 in a loan and you want a call whenever something happens? Sure you may have invested in 1000 loans and therefore $25k but I think people are getting to bogged down in the individual loans and not in the big picture.

Rather than complaining about lack of personal service (how much would that cost!), you should be complaining about discrepancies in info (which people on this forum are) and the lack of automation. My question:

Q1 - why cant I set criteria (ie. B-E 36m) and have money auto invested whenever i have more than $25 in my account. I have to log in multiple times a day just to ensure my money is working hard. I should be able to choose any of my filters as an auto invest.

Hi Harvey,

You do realize the 'issues' you may have with Harmoney are more than likely going to be different than my 'issues' with Harmoney - We are people and all different!

I also include 'personal contact' as a direct Email to me!

Harmoney know who EVERY Investor in every Note is ( after all they pay us when there is money, every month!

So an Email to every Investor when a loan is XX month over due and for sure an Email for every Default should be easy work for Harmoney to organize.

They have a team of people chasing the Dud loan notes - It's not so hard for someone in that team at Harmoney to send a Group Email to all the Investors - It's just common decency and respect for your Customers.

[Kelvin]

WHat!!! just got an email about the new fee structure for investors starting 13 June.

Instead of a 1.25% fee on interest, a fee will be charged on interest earned. 20% for investors under 10k, 17.5% for investing 10-50k, 15% for investing over 50k

Bloody expensive, the existing fee structure is equivalent to only 5.3% of my interest earned.

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/fee-changes-for-lenders?utm_source=news&utm_medium=EDM&utm_campaign=feechange

[kiwi_on_OE]

New charging structure released. I haven't made sense of it yet. Not sure if that's cos I'm tired or the explanation is a bit confusing.

Seems like their comparison is between old charges (pre Dec) and new charges, but current charges are not in the comparison. Strange.

One way of putting the change is that our fees are trebling from what they are at the moment, at least I think that's what it implies.

[Kelvin]

It's gonna hit the low grade loans really hard. Quick calculation suggests that investing $25 in a loan over 3 years with ~30% interest you will get ~$0.47 deducted under the current structure, under the new structure @20% you'll get ~$2.6 deducted in fees!!! Over 5x increase!!!

Lending Crowd, please increase your loan offerings so I can move over there with a much more reasonable 10% fee.

[rsmckee]

It's gonna hit the low grade loans really hard. Quick calculation suggests that investing $25 in a loan with ~30% interest you will get ~$0.47 deducted under the current structure, under the new structure @20% you'll get ~$2.6 deducted in fees!!! Over 5x increase!!!

Lending Crowd, please increase your loan offerings so I can move over there with a much more reasonable 10% fee.

Yes I just read the new lending fee structure - Not Happy.
scenario: $10K worth of loan @ 13% for 36 months.
Old fee structure would be: 10K principle + 3yrs of $1,300 = $13,900 @ 1.25% + total fee of $173.75!
New fee structure: 17.5% of $1,300 over 3 years = total fee of $682.50 !!!!
Now who are the winners here?

[Saamee]

Investors have got their wishes - From June 16 > No more Service Fees on Capital Repayments or on an Early Repaid Loan no 'Lump Sum' Service Fee on the Interest PLUS the Capital.

The Increases are also likely to do with Trade Me buying in! You only have to look at the Increases in Sales Fees over at Trade ME to see their influence here now!!

[Knot]

Bye Harmoney. Those fees are insane and unfair to smaller investors.

[Bjauck]

Maybe this is the result of some posters berating rewrites and being charged fees on the capital aspect of repayments? It sounds like Harmoney are planning to treble their fees for the average investor. Could Harmoney confirm this? If harmoney had started out with this fee structure, could thy tell us what how much more in investor fees they would have received?

[TazzieDave]

Bye Harmoney. Those fees are insane and unfair to smaller investors.

I'm with you.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Your math maybe wrong.

10k at 13% is $12130 in 36 months your out by $1770

[humvee]

Fee increase - Holy S..T


For simplicity sake all figures are based on a $100 Loan, No allowance made for late payments or writeoffs


F5 for 5 Years @ 39.99% Fee Was $2.91 Now $26.49
E5 for 5 Years @ 38.25% Fee Was $2.82 Now $25.12
D5 For 5 Years @ 30.24% Fee Was $2.44 Now $19.00
C5 For 5 Years @ 23.23% Fee Was $2.12 Now $13.99
B5 For 5 Years @ 16.48% Fee Was $1.84 Now $9.49
A5 For 5 Years @ 13.25% Fee Was $1.72 Now $7.46
A1 For 5 Years @ 9.99% Fee Was $1.59 Now $5.49

[humvee]

Fee increase - Holy S..T


For simplicity sake all figures are based on a $100 Loan, No allowance made for late payments or writeoffs


F5 for 5 Years @ 39.99% Fee Was $2.91 Now $26.49
E5 for 5 Years @ 38.25% Fee Was $2.82 Now $25.12
D5 For 5 Years @ 30.24% Fee Was $2.44 Now $19.00
C5 For 5 Years @ 23.23% Fee Was $2.12 Now $13.99
B5 For 5 Years @ 16.48% Fee Was $1.84 Now $9.49
A5 For 5 Years @ 13.25% Fee Was $1.72 Now $7.46
A1 For 5 Years @ 9.99% Fee Was $1.59 Now $5.49


So fee increases of 368% - 910%

[777]

I just hope Harmoney stay in business until I get my last lot of money out. I think they are dead in the water.

Their example was comparing an apple and an orange. Just upped the interest rate to until the advantage looks to be in the favour of the lender.

[Knot]

I could almost accept the new fee if it included repayment insurance.

[TazzieDave]

What really gets me is not only have they tripled their effective fee (ignoring rewrites for the moment), but the "theoretical example" that they give is just an insult to the intelligence. See - 17.50% of bananas is about the same as 1.25% of apples. The only correct comparison is based on an investment made at current rates, not comparing with historic rates.

The cynic in me is now seeing that the rewrite double dipping was ALWAYS part of their business model. Now having seen how the investors reacted to it, they embarked on a medium term plan to make their returns more "honest" by changing the lender fees, but to do it in such a way that it doesn't appear too bad. Hence the increased rates in December for this theoretical example garbage.

Ok, I'll take my tin-foil hat off now but I'd love to hear some real justifications for the massive increases in fees. If they really want to grow the business I'd suggest a quick rethink before they alienate most of their current investors.

[Broke]

at least this wont take effect until mid-june. i guess investors got their wish, too much whinging on the re-writes.

I have yet to see how this new fee structure will work out.. if the returns are still around 12% I'd be happy as larry to stay with harmoney. If it goes below 8%.. i might as well put my money in a Trust Fund

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Xcell spreadsheet maybe wrong, I still see great returns im sorry, 14% instead of 16% on an individual f5 loan with all those pesky rewrites gone. (and calculated at 15% ie greater than 50k invested.

[humvee]

at least this wont take effect until mid-june. i guess investors got their wish, too much whinging on the re-writes.

I have yet to see how this new fee structure will work out.. if the returns are still around 12% I'd be happy as larry to stay with harmoney. If it goes below 8%.. i might as well put my money in a Trust Fund

10% of interest(like lending crowd) would be far more reasonable - 20% is just taking the piss.

If my returns get even any where close to where you are talking Ill be moving my investing to Squirrel Money and Lending Crowd, For me harmoney formed the high risk, high return part for my P2P portfolio. C-F Grade. These grades are by far the worst hit by the fee increase of over 900% in some cases.

By the looks of it once the new fees are active harmoney will move to the same place in my portfolio as lendme - ie Just does not stack up or make sense against other P2P offerings

[Knot]

Made it to interest.co.nz http://www.interest.co.nz/business/81556/p2p-lender-harmoney-changes-key-fee-after-earlier-reducing-borrowers-fees-amid

[Stevo]

Hi Stevo, If you email me directly with the details we will take a look at it for you. dan@harmoney.co.nz

One email and an extra day's grace, then the repayment rate went from 27% to 100%.

I'm not out to knock something that I'm going to invest heavily in, but it looks like Harmoney has "speed wobbles". I hope this turns out well.

[Stevo]

Hamoney's not exactly a place to make rash decisions about pulling out or for making fast money. It'll be interesting to see how this evolves.

[Broke]

10% of interest(like lending crowd) would be far more reasonable - 20% is just taking the piss.




true true... i wouldnt mind such high fees if we somehow have the option as retail investors to recoup some or all of the delinquencies through the fee structure

but i will still wait how this new structure turns out.. HM forecast on the returns is still at the 13% level.. so im not sure if this would affect us badly, as it would seem

[Stevo]

true true... i wouldnt mind such high fees if we somehow have the option as retail investors to recoup some or all of the delinquencies through the fee structure

but i will still wait how this new structure turns out.. HM forecast on the returns is still at the 13% level.. so im not sure if this would affect us badly, as it would seem

I think Harmoney's investor community will get a better idea of things after a full credit cycle of five years.

[Knot]

Forecast 13%... Platform is currently 11.83, made up for retail at the old rate, institutional mostly at the old rate and some at the new rate. Add to that that institutional investors will be at the lowest fee rate and us retail investors are going to see sub 10% IMHO (no stats to back this up, just a quick mental calculation)

[Darchie]

No matter how i run my calculator over this it seems Ugly ... Harmoney have gone underground whereas they should be giving us better examples .... i hope it won't be a case of RIP .... have they really REALLY. Thought this out well enough?

[777]

No matter how i run my calculator over this it seems Ugly ... Harmoney have gone underground whereas they should be giving us better examples .... i hope it won't be a case of RIP .... have they really REALLY. Thought this out well enough?

Oh but they have been watching this thread.

[Harvey Specter]

Hi Harvey,

You do realize the 'issues' you may have with Harmoney are more than likely going to be different than my 'issues' with Harmoney - We are people and all different!

I also include 'personal contact' as a direct Email to me!True. An automated email does fit my internet based, low cost model. It would have to be opt out/in as I dont think I would want an email everytime a loan went overdue.

Maybe they just need to start a new classification for bad debts so we can see the reason (fraud, bankruptcy, MIA, gone overseas, etc), (which could be emailed to you), but does that really help you??? All I/we need is an assurance they are doing their best to recover.

[nztyke]

For what it's worth I calculate that if the new structure had been in place for the whole period that I have been invested my pre tax return would have reduced from 12.13% to 11.20%

[luigi]

True. An automated email does fit my internet based, low cost model. It would have to be opt out/in as I dont think I would want an email everytime a loan went overdue.

Maybe they just need to start a new classification for bad debts so we can see the reason (fraud, bankruptcy, MIA, gone overseas, etc), (which could be emailed to you), but does that really help you??? All I/we need is an assurance they are doing their best to recover.

Better reporting on it would be good to the extent that it can help choose future loans. I can't see the point of an email... loan goes overdue/defaults, you get an email - what are you going to do about it?

[Saamee]

Better reporting on it would be good to the extent that it can help choose future loans. I can't see the point of an email... loan goes overdue/defaults, you get an email - what are you going to do about it?


For me personally.... It's all about Harmoney offering a 'Pro-Active' level of customer Service.


Not Re-Active - Where if I log in once a week I may stumble across perhaps 3 loans written off.


Rgds

[humvee]

For what it's worth I calculate that if the new structure had been in place for the whole period that I have been invested my pre tax return would have reduced from 12.13% to 11.20%


Would you mind pasting your risk grade and term graphs. I suspect if your graphs are like mine the difference will be bigger. How long have you been investing

8033

[Darchie]

Come on Harmoney give us some realistic upfront examples ... at the moment all i can compare it to is LendingCrowd take 10% off Secured Loans ....
whereas you want 15% from me off Unsecured Loans ... various riskier grades do have a higher interest rate paid but a % fee is just that, it'll just be a larger amount taken.

[Harvey Specter]

My fees are currently just under 5% of interest received. So this will be a more than 3x increase. A very high level calculation that is probably wrong suggests my RAR would be 75% of current levels if the fee structure had been in place from the start so 13% x 0.75 = 9.75%. Thats getting close to the other platforms that provide higher levels of security which should do better in a down turn.

So did the originally price it wrong or was the initial total fee level bait and switch?

[Stevo]

Would you mind pasting your risk grade and term graphs. I suspect if your graphs are like mine the difference will be bigger. How long have you been investing

8033

You must have quite a set of 'nads to adopt that investment profile, given the vulnerability of the F grades. How old are your oldest loans? What's your RAR and do you think its accurate?

[Bjauck]

For what it's worth I calculate that if the new structure had been in place for the whole period that I have been invested my pre tax return would have reduced from 12.13% to 11.20% Not that I agree with their logic, but Harmoney are arguing that since December the interest rates charged to borrowers increased by about 2% so this will almost recoup the huge hike in their service charges to lenders from June onwards compared with pre-December. They had to try to find a less negative spin by delving into history somehow...

[Knot]

Yup if the two things had been linked they would of done it then, or at the very least let people know.

[Whippeedo]

Wow. I'm shocked. I can't believe the size of this fee increase. It is outrageous. I was the biggest raving fan of Harmoney until today's Lender fee announcement. Its very disappointing to hear. The model showing impact is bullocks / lies / a creative statistic.

I estimate going from a 1.25% fee on interest earned up to 5% would more than compensate for stopping charges on the principle repayment fee of 1.25%. I mean hell! - go all the way up to 10% on interest earned - like LC if you must, but going all the way to 15% from 1.25% (6 fold increase?!) cannot be justified because they are dropping principle repayment fee. Crazy.

[Bjauck]

I am wondering if Harmoney ultimately want to become a business-to-peer lender as their announced charging scale does nothing to encourage the smaller investors.

[Whippeedo]

Harmoney said they did this to align Harmoneys' interests with Lenders - Yeah righto - what a crock ( well ya sure as hell dropped the ball on that one with a 6 fold increase in your fees to invests!...how does that help investors/lenders? what a joke )

Can we please stay with the old fee structure. I take it all back. 1.25% on interest and 1.25% on principle is a fantastic structure. the cost of early re-write fees currently are nothing compared to the increased interest commission costs just announced - 6 fold increase in interest commission Harmoney will soon be taking.

Even 2.5% on I and 2.5% on P is better than 0% on P and 15% on I don't you think.

Harmoney have effectively just increased their fees to investors by about 200%.

I'm not happy about this at all

[Stevo]

I am wondering if Harmoney ultimately want to become a business-to-peer lender as their announced charging scale does nothing to encourage the smaller investors.

You're probably not too far from the truth.

I think they're trying to take things to the next level i.e. big increases in both borrowing and investment. It certainly doesn't pay so well to chuck small change in their direction. At first, the notes of $25 may have been a nice enticement for "mum and dad" investors, but it now looks like the notes are primarily used to promote fractionalisation. And investors are being nudged to put more in to make it worthwhile, just as borrowers are nudged to take on more (affordable) debt.

[humvee]

You must have quite a set of 'nads to adopt that investment profile, given the vulnerability of the F grades. How old are your oldest loans? What's your RAR and do you think its accurate?

I don't look at my P2P portfolio as solely 1 platform. Under the old fee structure I judged that what harmony delivered best for me Was the higher risk higher return, While My A & B Grades are provided by squirrelmoney and lending crowd. For the levels of return of A & B loans I start wanting so see things like Secured loans and/or loan shield.

That said 75% of my P2P investment is with harmoney currently

My oldest loan would be reaching close to 17 months now At the moment my RAR is at ~16% after taking a hammering from the latest Fraud cases (I had invested in ALL nine fraudulent loans) Not all of these were F grades either.

Under both the old and new fees I wont be investing in A or B grade loans with harmoney, Under the new fees I wont invest in F grade either and probably not E Grade either as these are hit too hard by the new fees. So that leaves only C & D Grade and Im not sure a C & D Grade portfolio with harmoney under the new fees can make a good enough return over safer secured Lending Crowd loans to make it worth while.

[Bjauck]

Well explained Humvee. I had been reaching a similar conclusion as to cost/ benefit/risk. Harmoney should be expecting that many existing investors would be considering a gradual drawdown of their positions after such a massive jump in charges.

[Stevo]

I don't look at my P2P portfolio as solely 1 platform...

Thanks for the info, humvee. That's really bad luck getting stung with those fraudulent loans. I'm only with Harmoney for P2P lending but may look at the other options later. I like being able to export the spreadsheets because I'm a numbers geek. I know what you mean about unpredictability; some of my fastest/earliest repayments have come from F grade borrowers.

I'm actually looking forward to getting more data (over the years) to try and make sense of this market.