Harmoney

[Knot]

and if you want out you can't sell, the secondary market is a dead duck because no one wanted it, according to the survey results.....

[Broke]

I will most likely still invest in harmoney after the fee change, their returns arent bad at all (even after the fees and write-offs).. I have had up to 60% of my entire portfolio in it already, and i think it would be better to just watch how things unfold before i decide to pull out entirely.

As long as my RAR stays roughly the same, give or take a few. I dont see why i shouldnt continue with them

[Knot]

Assuming real returns stayed similar, then sure. My calculator says otherwise. I see real returns under 10% within a year. Not worth the risk compared to other p2p platforms IMHO.

[Jinx]

Unrelated question,
Why does it seem like where my RAR should be displayed i instead get
http://imgur.com/edit
Is it something to do with not enough capital returned yet?

[Broke]

Assuming real returns stayed similar, then sure. My calculator says otherwise. I see real returns under 10% within a year. Not worth the risk compared to other p2p platforms IMHO.


If it goes below 10%, i may consider other alternatives.. Theres alot of investment vehicles that make that same amount, that doesn't necesarily involve p2p. I've been heavily invested in the other lending platforms too, but there seems to be hardly any action on them

[Art]

If it goes below 10%, i may consider other alternatives.. Theres alot of investment vehicles that make that same amount, that doesn't necesarily involve p2p. I've been heavily invested in the other lending platforms too, but there seems to be hardly any action on them

Based on my return of 12.94% last financial year the new fee structure would have dropped my return to 10.7% based on the 20% commission or 11.45% based on 15% commission. Currently paying just over 5% of interest in fees. I have opted for a conservative spread with 20% in As and 40% in Bs - I might have to reconsider the spread and perhaps use other platforms for the lower risk investments - first time I have seriously considered the other P2P platforms since I have been pretty happy with Harmoney.

[mlt322]

first time I have seriously considered the other P2P platforms since I have been pretty happy with Harmoney.

I'm with you Art. I haven't worked out the difference the fee hike will make to my investments but at a current cost of around 5% I can't see a hike to 20% on interest only is going to be in my favour. I have stopped reinvesting as of today and will maintain a wait and see approach.

Personally, I think Harmoney, until today, did a pretty good job. They've F****d up on this one big time and unless they can prove that this fee change isn't going to seriously affect our returns, I will be jumping ship.

[777]

It will vary with a different interest rate but one loan I reworked...

$250 @ 20.03% for 36 months. Old fee totalled $4.18. New fee at 15% is $12.70. 17.5% is $14.82 and 20% is 16.93. Roughly 3 times, 3.5 times and 4 times respectfully.

Repayment $250 and total interest $84.67.

[Knot]

Now take off RWT at your rate (remember it comes off of the gross, not the nett) and your actual return is....

[Broke]

For comparison

looks like Lending Club of USA still only charges 1% fees.. Makes you wonder, they've been around for far longer than HM and still have modest fees.

Tho in fairness, the delinquency rate in Lending Club is far greater

[Knot]

Brian Barefoot from LC USA is on The Harmoney Advisory Board

[kiwi_on_OE]

I've got two issues 1) the size of the fee increase, and 2) the way it has been represented. The former is up to me to do something about, and I will be approaching the alternative providers. Here's my views on the latter.

The Dec 15 interest rate increases were done as part of their move from a variable/risk-adjusted fee to a flat fee, with the intention that borrowers paid around the same amount overall.

The theoretical example on their website uses interest rates from before the change, links/compares them with current interest rates, with the implication that the current fee change is related. I think that is pretty clearly misleading or deceptive. The Fair Dealing section of the FMC Act deals with "misleading or deceptive conduct".

Harmoney, you may wish to change the example otherwise I will complain to the FMA on Monday.

[Art]

Now take off RWT at your rate (remember it comes off of the gross, not the nett) and your actual return is....

Yes, but that gets fixed when you file your annual tax return (well, the fees part anyway, the losses part is somewhat less clearcut)

[Knot]

Yes, but that gets fixed when you file your annual tax return (well, the fees part anyway, the losses part is somewhat less clearcut)

Yes you will get a small refund on the extra RWT you have paid, but that does not change the purpose of the exercise, to show what you actually get for all that risk.

[Knot]

In a private email a Harmoney Employee has told me that if they did not do this they would go bust.

Perhaps the expansion into Australia is not going so well, plus all the advertising etc.

[mlt322]

In a private email a Harmoney Employee has told me that if they did not do this they would go bust.

"Whoop, whoop......warning, warning"

[Saamee]

In a private email a Harmoney Employee has told me that if they did not do this they would go bust.

Perhaps the expansion into Australia is not going so well, plus all the advertising etc.


Beware of Internet Trolls!!

To post on here something like that unsubstantiated = Diddly Squat....!

Post the Email and I would believe you :)

[Bjauck]

Yes, but that gets fixed when you file your annual tax return (well, the fees part anyway, the losses part is somewhat less clearcut) Are you certain that service charges will be deductible for all investors including for those who are "not in business"?

Harmoney states on their website (my emphasis): We expect that fees paid by Investors will be tax deductible. Each Investor’s circumstances are different, so we recommend that they seek independent tax advice
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/fee-changes-for-lenders

So they only "expect". There has been no guidance from IRD and apparently Harmoney is no longer seeking guidance on behalf of the various types of investors in this new category of financial investment.

In an item about p2p lending on mortgagerates,co,nz an IRD "spokesperson" is quoted: Generally, for the lender to be able to claim expenses relating to their lending, such as commissions and other fees, they would need to be in the business of lending. http://www.mortgagerates.co.nz/article/976503820/p2p-investors-told-to-get-tax-advice.html

So for an investor not "in business" it seems not to be clear cut, So definitely DYOR. Deductibility of service charges is set to have an even greater impact on after tax returns after these proposed hike in charges are due to take effect. The tax treatment of investors' p2p returns needs guidance from IRD imo.

[Knot]

I do not post email without the other persons permission. I would suggest sending your own email to investor diservices @ harmoney

[Saamee]

I do not post email without the other persons permission. I would suggest sending your own email to investor diservices @ harmoney

Knot..... Your sounding more and more like a despondent Troll!! he he he

[Knot]

Moi? Never

[Darchie]

I am TOTALLY and Utterly Divided at this point as to if I'll even continue with Harmoney .... their silence at this point in my view is doing MORE DAMAGE than good!
I keep telling myself they've cocked up Bigtime! And will realise what they've truly done and their workings of the new rates were in fact errors and the mistake should never of been released!
THEIR TOTAL SILENCE HERE. Smacks of Hiding from investors .... Well Harmoney ya gunna have to Front up SOON!
Do some damage control .....

[Saamee]

Some good news today!! TAX Certificates are available Online for Download :)

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

I look at it this way, i dont care what the returns are so long as they are better than my next option - which used to be serious saver accounts now roughly 2.75%.

We are free to take our money out and do with it what we please. In theory they simplifed the product they offer - no longer are they taking your capital but now they are taking part of your earnings. If you dont earn - they dont get paid - whats the problem with that ? Any current loan continue with current rules the new loans have new rules. As investors we are the seagulls at the rubbish dump - they could take everything all the way down to a percentage point above the next option - and still have my money.

By taking earnings versues capital - they allow themselves the ability to market to the borrowers more money, and at the end of the day - more money lent more interest received - so it kinda of a better approach.

Again risk v reward.

There maybe tax advantage to this approach - ie you have to have earned the interest to have it taxed, where as before you lose your capital.

as before at the a levels sombody could borrow and then pay back straight away - which would leave you with less captial than what you put in - this approach dosnt have that.

Im no expert - but i get the feeling people have a invidividual loan mentality as aposed to "portfolio" approach ie loan x defaulted i loose $25 - im gunn get my pitch forks out - i wanna know where the borrower lives. Its simply not worth it if you have diversified your loans and the amount you have in the system.

My approach - oh bugger another default oh well, still getting 14% across the other loans so not so bad, im not gunna cry over it.

I dont understand why people take large postions in loans ie more than $25 with small amounts of overall captial.

ie 1 loan default on $25 is 100% loss.

2 loan defaults on 4 loans at $100 is 50% loss

20 loan defaults on 500 loans 0.04% loss.

its a scaling game to a certain extent..


Ps when the NWO comes ( new harmony order) comes - i dont think we should be touching f5 loans ? anybody else getting that result ?

[Soolaimon]

Harmoney have certainly managed to stir this forum up this time. I have been with them since they started. Reason was that term deposit rates were tanking and I took it as a way to make up some of the shortfall. So far I am happy with results, I have gradually moved to less risky B loans and my RAR is running at 13.3% which you must agree is way more than the banks are giving. I have roughly calculated that, with the new fees my returns will suffer by $8 per month. (20k invested) Not a big problem.... Some, like me are also using Lending Crowd. I started with them 4 months ago and so far happy enough with the lower returns and extra security. However the loans there can be few and far between, the last gap was 8 days and the one listed today is filling very quickly. Although I was surprised at the amount of fee increase by Harmoney, for me, it is not the end of the world and I will probably keep re-investing paid-offs there and grabbing what I can on Lending Crowd and keep on complaining to my bank.

[Whippeedo]

Well said, I agree 100%


........Personally, I think Harmoney, until today, did a pretty good job. They've F****d up on this one big time and unless they can prove that this fee change isn't going to seriously affect our returns, I will be jumping ship.

[Whippeedo]

Well said. I agree 100%


I've got two issues 1) the size of the fee increase, and 2) the way it has been represented. The former is up to me to do something about, and I will be approaching the alternative providers. Here's my views on the latter.

The Dec 15 interest rate increases were done as part of their move from a variable/risk-adjusted fee to a flat fee, with the intention that borrowers paid around the same amount overall.

The theoretical example on their website uses interest rates from before the change, links/compares them with current interest rates, with the implication that the current fee change is related. I think that is pretty clearly misleading or deceptive. The Fair Dealing section of the FMC Act deals with "misleading or deceptive conduct".

Harmoney, you may wish to change the example otherwise I will complain to the FMA on Monday.

[Whippeedo]

In a private email a Harmoney Employee has told me that if they did not do this they would go bust.

Their fees were previously unsustainable low for Harmony at 1.25% P and 1.25%
E.g. @ $200mill lent they are only earning about $2.5mill in interest fees per year and lets say about $500K worth of P fees = about $3mill of revenue. Obviously not enough.

Now their fees are unsustainably high for Lenders @ 20% - 15 %
E.g. @ the same $200mill lent example they are now earning between $30mill and 40mill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Obviously enough to run the company but that increase is totally over the top and extortionate.

Wholy **** Batman...on this example they've gone from $3mill in fees to an average of $35mill in fees on the same amount lent.

So the next $200mill lent after the 16th June 2016 will increase fees for Harmoney by over 1000% compared with the first $200mill lent out

That is such a massive change. It only causes far more serious questions to be asked of Harmoneys management.

How could the initial fees be set so unsustainably low? What were they thinking to start with?

How could they correct this by over shooting by such a vast amount? Please show your working on this one.

The old bait and switch at play for sure here. Someone is taking the piss out of investors.

And this was done under the guise to align Harmoneys interests with investors. Big fat YEAH RIGHT to that.

A flat fee of 10% of interest earned is more than enough for Harmoney to run and make a good profit on.

You got way too greedy here. It just looks and sounds so bad to make such a big move like that.

Now who wants to join me to set up in competition to Harmoney. P2P lending without ripping off investors and ridiculous see-sawing fee structures.

[Broke]

I look at it this way, i dont care what the returns are so long as they are better than my next option - which used to be serious saver accounts now roughly 2.75%.




Serious Saver? thats prettymuch just my back-up funds incase i incur unexpected bills, at 2% net, thats just enough to cover inflation. Have you tried looking into Trusts? Some of them deliver 10% p.a. quite easily.. Not far off from HM and other p2p platforms. On a good note, , p2p is a very exciting vehicle for diversifying the portfolio

[Whippeedo]

I think you have taken too much gear in the rear ;)

Do you work for Harmony?

Check your maths on your loan defaults percentages. 20/500 = 4% loss. not .04% big difference

The problem is rather obvious. fees have basically gone from 1.25% to 20%

That is like a loaf of bread going from $5 up to $80. How would you feel about that?

If you don't think that is a big rip off - good for you - You are in lala land or have too much money already.

No offence intended really. Just being cheeky

[Stevo]

What's the story with rewrites? Aren't borrowers supposed make at least three repayments first?

I mean, LAI* 00063585 seems pretty suspect: a rewrite after ONE successful repayment, from someone 20-29 years old, supposedly earning $6,850 after tax, renting in Auckland...

...wanting to go on holiday...

...with 5 enquiries over the last 6 months...

Come on. How robust is the lending process? This really seems to be taking the mickey.

[mlt322]

Now who wants to join me to set up in competition to Harmoney. P2P lending without ripping off investors and ridiculous see-sawing fee structures.

Set it up and sign me on. Sounds like there's room for another competitor in the P2P market. I'm withdrawing the money accumulated in my Harmoney account tonight. First time I've done this but they've pushed this one too far.

See y'all on the Lending Crowd thread...........

[Stevo]

What's the story with rewrites? Aren't borrowers supposed make at least three repayments first?

I mean, LAI* 00063585 seems pretty suspect: a rewrite after ONE successful repayment, from someone 20-29 years old, supposedly earning $6,850 after tax, renting in Auckland...

...wanting to go on holiday...

...with 5 enquiries over the last 6 months...

Come on. How robust is the lending process? This really seems to be taking the mickey.

Did this borrower make three months' worth of payments in one transaction?

[Stevo]

I've just have a look through some loans and noticed that rewrites are being given to borrowers who have made ZERO repayments. Are Harmoney lying? This is what they say on their website:

"What qualifies a Borrower to rewrite their loan?

A borrower must have good credit with a consistent loan payment history, at least three months of payments on time and in full and have capacity within their credit limit."

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

No, i dont work for harmony.

Your example with the $200mill is kinda wrong as well.

they collection 1.25 on the 200mill plus "INTEREST" which you seem to have forgotten in your calculation which could be a big number after 5 years. Especially if lent out at 39.9%

I tried to do the numbers but too hard.

Cheers

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

20 loan defaults on 500 loans 0.04% loss.

20 * 25 = $500
500*25= $12500
$500 / $12500 = 0.04%

[Saamee]

I've just have a look through some loans and noticed that rewrites are being given to borrowers who have made ZERO repayments. Are Harmoney lying? This is what they say on their website:

"What qualifies a Borrower to rewrite their loan?

A borrower must have good credit with a consistent loan payment history, at least three months of payments on time and in full and have capacity within their credit limit."


Yes Steve, You are correct. Here too have had 'Virgin loans' re-written after 1 or 2 months ( not Zero months though! )

I'm sorry to say, Harmoney appear now to be Greedy, Lying and Money Grabbing cheats....

I misjudged Harmoney from there initial marketing appearances... That is myself and many others these days :(

Ill simply Take my Money Out as it is paid = Move all On over to Lending Crowd...

[mfd]

Think your maths is a little off there, you seem to be taking the fees on interest as a %age of the loan amount, not the interest paid. If they lend out $200mil with the new fees, annual interest paid ~36 mill (average interest rate is 18.3% on their stats page, not sure if that is the old or new structure but close enough). 20% fees on that would give Harmoney ~$7 mill per year, 15% ~$5.5mill. Same with current structure, I make it ~500k income from the existing ~200mil lent, and a similar amount from principal repaid. Still a bloody big step up from the current fee structure, I'll certainly be using the other P2P sites more in future.


Their fees were previously unsustainable low for Harmony at 1.25% P and 1.25%
E.g. @ $200mill lent they are only earning about $2.5mill in interest fees per year and lets say about $500K worth of P fees = about $3mill of revenue. Obviously not enough.

Now their fees are unsustainably high for Lenders @ 20% - 15 %
E.g. @ the same $200mill lent example they are now earning between $30mill and 40mill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Obviously enough to run the company but that increase is totally over the top and extortionate.

Wholy **** Batman...on this example they've gone from $3mill in fees to an average of $35mill in fees on the same amount lent.

So the next $200mill lent after the 16th June 2016 will increase fees for Harmoney by over 1000% compared with the first $200mill lent out

That is such a massive change. It only causes far more serious questions to be asked of Harmoneys management.

How could the initial fees be set so unsustainably low? What were they thinking to start with?

How could they correct this by over shooting by such a vast amount? Please show your working on this one.

The old bait and switch at play for sure here. Someone is taking the piss out of investors.

And this was done under the guise to align Harmoneys interests with investors. Big fat YEAH RIGHT to that.

A flat fee of 10% of interest earned is more than enough for Harmoney to run and make a good profit on.

You got way too greedy here. It just looks and sounds so bad to make such a big move like that.

Now who wants to join me to set up in competition to Harmoney. P2P lending without ripping off investors and ridiculous see-sawing fee structures.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

I need someone to check the spreadsheet i uploaded the other day from that its roughly 2% at an individual loan level.

[Snow Leopard]

20 loan defaults on 500 loans 0.04% loss.

20 * 25 = $500
500*25= $12500
$500 / $12500 = 0.04%

500/12500 = 0.04.

0.04 is equivalent to 4%

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[Art]

Are you certain that service charges will be deductible for all investors including for those who are "not in business"?


Income collection commissions whether it be that charged by lawyers collecting interest, trust companies collecting dividends and interest, real estate firms collecting rent, financial advisors collecting income etc have always been deductible as an expense against income. You would need to be an extreme worrier not to claim Harmoney fees against the income earned.

[Knot]

I need someone to check the spreadsheet i uploaded the other day from that its roughly 2% at an individual loan level.

I don't see a mistake in your calculations, but look at those stats another way;

Your paying almost 7 times the fee (or 372% increase) and getting nothing extra in return, in my case because I have not invested heavily in Harmoney that changes to 9 times the fee (496% increase). I have done this calculation across my entire loan book, and if this had been in place since they increased the % on loans (December) I would have paid 570 % more in fees (approx, it's on the other computer).

Yes the return is still ok(ish) but to be honest I can get the same or better return with less risk elsewhere, and to reduce the risk with Harmoney either means going A or B loans (and then the return drops right down), or buying loan repayment insurance when they release that to the rest of us (and at a guess that will be too expensive to make it worthwhile).

I'd accept a 10% across the board flat fee, but 20% and for them doing nothing extra?!?! nope.

[Art]

I have no problem with everyone making a profit and for the business model to be profitable, but the way I see it for there to be such a massive increase in fees (4 times in my view) one of the following must have happened:

1. Whoever developed the original business model got it very wrong and it was never going to fly at the original fees; or
2. The original fee structure was a 'loss leader' to develop the business; or
3. The shareholders have decided to ramp up the fees 'because they can' to maximise profits.

If either 1 or 2 they will probably get away with it, if 3 I think their competition will catch up with them, Harmoney ain't no TradeMe - well not yet anyway.

[Kelvin]

Surely they don't need to increase the fees 4x to make the business model work. Isn't the whole point of P2P having an online platform with lower overheads so that both borrowers and lenders get a better rate, with the platform taking a cut? But taking a 20% cut seems really excessive for this kind of business , perhaps 10% is more reasonable - In my view, they are being really greedy or need to look at their costs

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Yeah, but a and b loans suffer at a higher rewrite ratio than the e,f risk loans - that alone erodes your real return. You may also have your capital eroded depending on when the borrower rewrites which you cant offset to your tax payments.

So at a individual loan level - it dosnt look as good as it used to - but now over a group of loans it kinda equalises out (not perfectly but you get the point).

Your not charged on your capital and your capital can be reinvested into another loan. Rewrites have zero effect (that i can see) - we dont care if harmony chases the borrowers for rewrites and everybody is happy. This rewrite side of the business would be a sore point for harmony and us investors.

SO they are charging you at higher rate of interest but on a smaller portion of your loanbook ie less the capital amount you invested - at the moment they are charging your capital plus interest.

One of the issues this new cost is more upfrount than over the duration of loan - which impacts on the compounding of loan amounts.

The reason im interested so much is ive being trying to write a program to calculate out the loan books - so that i make the best decision on how to invest for example loans compounding into other loans.

So for example imagine a system which mimicks defaults and rewrites over thousands of different loans and spits out a number. They have provided enough information to do this. The piece missing is a rewrite profile - which now dosnt matter. For example ive seen mentions of 20% rewrites but skews depending on risk profile.

I got the system but i cant prove the results are correct - so i just keep my mouth shut.

[Knot]

The entire system is no longer viable for investors (IMHO), high % of defaults at one end, low returns at the other. The only party (that thinks) they are winning on this new fee structure is Harmoney. There is nothing in it for us, other P2P providers work out better now, or money into ETF's etc.

The thing that I really liked about Harmoney was the low size of their notes, I could throw money in without having to think about it, I could easily keep my money working for me within the platform, none of the other P2P platforms currently have these benefits.

Your program has me curious, being an IT person, and Harmoney having such a woeful info portal I've been developing my own, I know how much is due, when, what is overdue (which is different to Harmoney's overdue), a full usable transaction history, graphs out the wazhoo showing all kinds of neat visuals (like since my last stolen principal I have actually been in the negative, still down about $2 over what I put in, but that I should be up $2 in the next day or so - Yet my RAR is going up according to Harmoney - 3% since the last official update?!?).

The only thing I needed the Harmoney website for anymore was downloading transaction histories and actually placing orders.

I hadn't quite finished it when Harmoney announced the changes (Just needed to make it look nice really), whether I will or not I don't know, guess I could still have investments with them for the next 5 years since I can't sell.

p.s. You forgot to shut your mouth, we all know now :)



Yeah, but a and b loans suffer at a higher rewrite ratio than the e,f risk loans - that alone erodes your real return. You may also have your capital eroded depending on when the borrower rewrites which you cant offset to your tax payments.

So at a individual loan level - it dosnt look as good as it used to - but now over a group of loans it kinda equalises out (not perfectly but you get the point).

Your not charged on your capital and your capital can be reinvested into another loan. Rewrites have zero effect (that i can see) - we dont care if harmony chases the borrowers for rewrites and everybody is happy. This rewrite side of the business would be a sore point for harmony and us investors.

SO they are charging you at higher rate of interest but on a smaller portion of your loanbook ie less the capital amount you invested - at the moment they are charging your capital plus interest.

One of the issues this new cost is more upfrount than over the duration of loan - which impacts on the compounding of loan amounts.

The reason im interested so much is ive being trying to write a program to calculate out the loan books - so that i make the best decision on how to invest for example loans compounding into other loans.

So for example imagine a system which mimicks defaults and rewrites over thousands of different loans and spits out a number. They have provided enough information to do this. The piece missing is a rewrite profile - which now dosnt matter. For example ive seen mentions of 20% rewrites but skews depending on risk profile.

I got the system but i cant prove the results are correct - so i just keep my mouth shut.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Well you wont, because your investments will rewrite fairly shortly. This 5 year thing is a maxmium you will hold your investment for - your borrowers will move to cheaper rates, ask for more money etc - ie rewrite well before 5 year point.

I suspect about a third each year.

[Vermeer_paul]

Has anyone received (or able to download) a statement from Harmoney for Tax purposes that states the Harmoney fees paid and write-offs for YR 2014/2015? I can't seem to find any of that.

[Knot]

Reports - Statements - Tax Certificates

[Darchie]

Best email HM direct, as far as i can see only year ending 2016 is on their site

[777]

Best email HM direct, as far as i can see only year ending 2016 is on their site

Well that is the latest one and is required for Tax Return. 2017 is yet to happen.

[Vermeer_paul]

Best email HM direct, as far as i can see only year ending 2016 is on their site
Thanks Knot, Darchie and 777 for the quick response. 2015/2016 has this information - but the statement 2014/2015 doesn't... :-( So back to HM to get some details ...

Anyway - not too pleased about the lack of information around the write-offs and their new fee structure setup.
They simply could have allowed investors who bought notes from their already owned 'to be rewritten loan' waive the principal fee part as it transfers into the new loan anyway. Many benefits for everyone from such an approach ..
The incentive 'invest more and get a better deal' doesn't stack up as there are simply not enough loans available to invest in, and as per Harmoney's top dog adviser's statement 'diversification' is important to stay within the RAR averaged data.

And for that reason ... 'I'm out' ...

I gave it a 1 year trial with $10k and if things would change again, I might re-consider putting in more. For now, it's solely going to be 'Withdraw funds' from now on.

[Broke]

Lets face it. As retail investors, we are just a bunch bottomfeeders. We provide only 25 percent of the funds that sustains the loan market. If all of us dissapeared tomorrow, HM would still function and be going strong. Institutional lenders can absorb the fees and delinquencies quite easily. From a business perspective: HM doesnt really owe us anything. If you dont like the fees. Then dont invest after mid june.

[Art]

Lets face it. As retail investors, we are just a bunch bottomfeeders. We provide only 25 percent of the funds that sustains the loan market. If all of us dissapeared tomorrow, HM would still function and be going strong. Institutional lenders can absorb the fees and delinquencies quite easily. From a business perspective: HM doesnt really owe us anything. If you dont like the fees. Then dont invest after mid june.

I tend to agree. But what would make it a whole lot easier to continue to invest with Harmoney (albeit with a lower return due to the new fees) would be the option to automate investment. Investing at the moment is very time consuming, having to login frequently to find out what funds you have awaiting investment, then not having suitable investments available meaning you need to keep on checking until you are fully invested. The returns could never be good enough to justify the work involved currently. I hope they really are working on a good fix for this - and before I get bored with the platform.

[Broke]

I tend to agree. But what would make it a whole lot easier to continue to invest with Harmoney (albeit with a lower return due to the new fees) would be the option to automate investment. Investing at the moment is very time consuming, having to login frequently to find out what funds you have awaiting investment, then not having suitable investments available meaning you need to keep on checking until you are fully invested. The returns could never be good enough to justify the work involved currently. I hope they really are working on a good fix for this - and before I get bored with the platform.

better put alotta notes per loan then. Auto invest probably wont be available for a long time

[permutation]

Everyone, don't panic!; I have made a few calculations from my own experience.
Investing for over 12 months now and my Rar is about 14%.

From the account summary page, my principal received repayments in $ terms are about 45% of my total loan investments to date.
I have had over 500 original loans which represent a good cross-section of the loans in the market, I expect the repayment % to continue in the future.

So till now P+I fees are 1.25%. Breaking down the fee components, 17% of the fee was for my interest received and the remaining 83% was for principal.

Hypothetically from June 13 (plus 30 days) if the gross interest payment fee was 20% and I applied it to my current calculation above, the fee increase would be 175%.
From the email it appears that it applies to new loans taken and so the total fee creep of 175% on all my investments would take 2 more years.

Harmoney are excited that they have delivered returns above their target so I guess they want to grab some of this lovely lolly for themselves.
Even after the increase I think my Rar will still be over 11.5%.

[Harvey Specter]

.

So till now P+I fees are 1.25%. Breaking down the fee components, 17% of the fee was for my interest received and the remaining 83% was for principal.

Hypothetically from June 13 (plus 30 days) if the gross interest payment fee was 20% and I applied it to my current calculation above, the fee increase would be 175%.
.
So what percentage of interest has the fee been. It sounds like you've been hit by heaps of rewrites if it's that high.

Fees/interest is about 5% so this will be a 3-4x increase in fees.

[Finite]

Everyone, don't panic!; I have made a few calculations from my own experience.
Investing for over 12 months now and my Rar is about 14%.

From the account summary page, my principal received repayments in $ terms are about 45% of my total loan investments to date.
I have had over 500 original loans which represent a good cross-section of the loans in the market, I expect the repayment % to continue in the future.

So till now P+I fees are 1.25%. Breaking down the fee components, 17% of the fee was for my interest received and the remaining 83% was for principal.

Hypothetically from June 13 (plus 30 days) if the gross interest payment fee was 20% and I applied it to my current calculation above, the fee increase would be 175%.
From the email it appears that it applies to new loans taken and so the total fee creep of 175% on all my investments would take 2 more years.

Harmoney are excited that they have delivered returns above their target so I guess they want to grab some of this lovely lolly for themselves.
Even after the increase I think my Rar will still be over 11.5%.

That seems a good way to look at it.
You seem to have had more repayment/rewrites than me. My principle repayments make up 78% of my payments (I'm about 70% invested in 3 year loans with a RAR of just under 14%). Which leads to a 200% increase in fees for me , from $323 to $975

[permutation]

So what percentage of interest has the fee been. It sounds like you've been hit by heaps of rewrites if it's that high.

Fees/interest is about 5% so this will be a 3-4x increase in fees.

As clearly stated, 17% of the total fees charged was for interest received. i.e. If I paid $100 in total fees P+I, the interest part of the fee was $17.

So the old system of 1.25% for P+I was much cheaper even with lots of rewrites. There were lots of posts here complaining about the fees charged on rewrites, so I guess we get the new structure as a result.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

time for me to stick my neck out again.

Heres is another spreadsheet with graphs.

The fee increase is different depending on when a person rewrites or what loan types they have. It coule be argued that its more advantageous to us now with the lower risk loans as per the attached graphs (at %15 anyway).

[mlt322]

And for that reason ... 'I'm out' ...

I gave it a 1 year trial with $10k and if things would change again, I might re-consider putting in more. For now, it's solely going to be 'Withdraw funds' from now on.

Would be interesting to know how many of us are abandoning the HM ship.

And not a word from HM on this forum since the announcement.

Perhaps their plan is to ditch retail lenders altogether in favour of their institutional customers. This would be a great way to exit that part of the market whilst reaping some big fat fees for those that wish to remain.

[Saamee]

Made time to do my own calculations.... ( based on between 10K to 20K - so New Fee = 17.5% )

@ Current Rate of 1.25% to date = $164.63 Service Fess on $2,378.75 of Interest returned = 6.92% Fee rate

I calculate under the new scheme @ 17.5% the Harmoney Fee would be $416.28

That works out to 2.52 times the old scheme Fee

[Broke]

Would be interesting to know how many of us are abandoning the HM ship.

And not a word from HM on this forum since the announcement.

Perhaps their plan is to ditch retail lenders altogether in favour of their institutional customers. This would be a great way to exit that part of the market whilst reaping some big fat fees for those that wish to remain.


you gotta admit, its probably too much of a hassle for them replying to all the thousands of lenders filling their inboxes "wah, what happened to my $25 loan, why was it re-written?" "waah, howcome this note I lent got defaulted on?"

Better to deal with a dozen big institutional lenders than a horde of retails.

[RMJH]

I guess they had to increase fees because we have effectively been getting the platform fee since the rate hikes! I have paid $760 in fees and under the new scheme this would be $1926 but of course against that you have to consider the extra interest. That's actually a hard calculation/simulation but in short the A & B's will be less profitable (maybe 1-2% drop in yield) whilst the higher grades might be neutral (or possibly even favourable) if the market will bear them. I bet Harmoney will still be losing money for a while yet as the industry is still in its infancy so personally I am happy to continue to support them in creating this new asset class.

[WingingIt]

ANyone notice one of the columns in the 'Investments' section has now changed to - Max term (months)? Used to be payments remaining didnt it?

[kiwi_on_OE]

ANyone notice one of the columns in the 'Investments' section has now changed to - Max term (months)? Used to be payments remaining didnt it?

Just noticed a change there myself. My recollection is that there used to be two columns, one for Term and one for number of payments remaining. Which I found useful when looking at loans in arrears. Now it's all guess work.

[WingingIt]

Just noticed a change there myself. My recollection is that there used to be two columns, one for Term and one for number of payments remaining. Which I found useful when looking at loans in arrears. Now it's all guess work.

Yep you're correct I also thought there were two columns turned into one.

It was extremely useful for seeing whether borrowers were up to date or behind in payments.

I've sent off an email and will report back with their reply.

[kiwi_on_OE]

The Dec 15 interest rate increases were done as part of their move from a variable/risk-adjusted fee to a flat fee, with the intention that borrowers paid around the same amount overall.

The theoretical example on their website uses interest rates from before the change, links/compares them with current interest rates, with the implication that the current fee change is related. I think that is pretty clearly misleading or deceptive. The Fair Dealing section of the FMC Act deals with "misleading or deceptive conduct".

Harmoney, you may wish to change the example otherwise I will complain to the FMA on Monday.

FYI. I won't be complaining to the FMA about this. I still think it is misleading/deceptive, and I'll add poorly explained. As I see it, Lenders have been the beneficiaries of the interest rate increase in Dec, not Harmoney. So this change is a way of paying a similar(?) NET amount of fees to Harmoney that they were getting pre-Dec. I guess this is implied, but not stated, by their example?

A couple of other things I noticed: -
1) The interest rates on A and B loans weren't increased in Dec, so they're badly affected by the change. D, E and F loans had Dec rate increases, so although the impact of this change in Jun is big, compared to Dec we're still ahead, just.
2) the 15%/17.5%/20% rates are assigned to the loans when they are taken out. So if you get to $10k+/$50k+ loans, they will be charged at different rates. But as the earlier loans are paid off/re-written the replacement loans will be charged at the lower rate.
3) 12k borrowers pa(?) @ $375 fee => $4-5m pa, $24m pa int @ 10%(?) fee => $2-3m pa. So they could be earning about $7m pa. I wonder what their costs are?

[Darchie]

FYI. I won't be complaining to the FMA about this. I still think it is misleading/deceptive, and I'll add poorly explained. As I see it, Lenders have been the beneficiaries of the interest rate increase in Dec, not Harmoney. So this change is a way of paying a similar(?) NET amount of fees to Harmoney that they were getting pre-Dec. I guess this is implied, but not stated, by their example?

A couple of other things I noticed: -
1) The interest rates on A and B loans weren't increased in Dec, so they're badly affected by the change. D, E and F loans had Dec rate increases, so although the impact of this change in Jun is big, compared to Dec we're still ahead, just.
2) the 15%/17.5%/20% rates are assigned to the loans when they are taken out. So if you get to $10k+/$50k+ loans, they will be charged at different rates. But as the earlier loans are paid off/re-written the replacement loans will be charged at the lower rate.
3) 12k borrowers pa(?) @ $375 fee => $4-5m pa, $24m pa int @ 10%(?) fee => $2-3m pa. So they could be earning about $7m pa. I wonder what their costs are?

Yes A and B loans will give low yields ..and seem to be highly represented in those rewrites. .. yet those investors (after June increase in fees) will find those rewrites their friend if they're trying to break into the next tier to get a lower fee snatched from them.... i will add though those A loans don't seem to feature in the arrears reports like other grades.

Here's another angle:
Worst of both figures 33% tax plus 20% fee means 53% gone before any writeoffs or
Then 33% tax plus 15% fee ... 48% gone - so rule of thumb one can round that to 50% (but I'm sure sour loans will be more of a loss than 2% over time ... especially with a down turn) so its an easier way to look at the loan grades when ya see the rate offered .. just halve it, it might indicate the amount you might keep for all ya hard earned capital that's at risk!

I do think Harmoney is being Greedy, as this platform is offering unsecured loans ... so I ask do you think they'll be spending more now on scrutinizing the loan applications? Or even allocating more to souring loans? ... I'm not sure ...

[humvee]

I guess they had to increase fees because we have effectively been getting the platform fee since the rate hikes! I have paid $760 in fees and under the new scheme this would be $1926 but of course against that you have to consider the extra interest. That's actually a hard calculation/simulation but in short the A & B's will be less profitable (maybe 1-2% drop in yield) whilst the higher grades might be neutral (or possibly even favourable) if the market will bear them. I bet Harmoney will still be losing money for a while yet as the industry is still in its infancy so personally I am happy to continue to support them in creating this new asset class.


Its not just A & B Grade hit hard by this - if you look back at the interest increase a number of F grades got little or no interest rate increase either. Also what people forget is the high interest rates on E & F grade loans is because of the higher risk of default. Harmoney will be taking a massively larger cut of the interest we receive for taking this risk, yet they incur no extra risk them selves

Fee increase for a F5 Grade was 910% Fee increase for a E5 works out at 890%

I cannot remember the others off the top of my head but the interest rate increase for a f5 was 0% and for a f4 was 0.01%

So for me it will most likely mean I wont invest in A, B , E or F grade any more - so I need to decide if its worth continuing for only C & D Grade.

I don't have a problem with the change to the new method if calculating fees - the new way is the best way to do it - they have simply set the fee % too high. If they set it to 10% it still would have been an increase for most, but would be much more reasonable and inline with other P2P players in the market

[Darchie]

I don't have a problem with the change to the new method if calculating fees - the new way is the best way to do it - they have simply set the fee % too high. If they set it to 10% it still would have been an increase for most, but would be much more reasonable and inline with other P2P players in the market[/QUOTE]

Absolutewly Agree

[RMJH]

The thing I don't like is that the fee is on gross interest ie before charge-offs. Under the new fees there seems to be little financial incentive to go hard to recover capital on poor loans.

[RMJH]

Its not just A & B Grade hit hard by this - if you look back at the interest increase a number of F grades got little or no interest rate increase either. Also what people forget is the high interest rates on E & F grade loans is because of the higher risk of default. Harmoney will be taking a massively larger cut of the interest we receive for taking this risk, yet they incur no extra risk them selves

Fee increase for a F5 Grade was 910% Fee increase for a E5 works out at 890%

I cannot remember the others off the top of my head but the interest rate increase for a f5 was 0% and for a f4 was 0.01%

So for me it will most likely mean I wont invest in A, B , E or F grade any more - so I need to decide if its worth continuing for only C & D Grade.

I don't have a problem with the change to the new method if calculating fees - the new way is the best way to do it - they have simply set the fee % too high. If they set it to 10% it still would have been an increase for most, but would be much more reasonable and inline with other P2P players in the market

These are the old and new rates with calculated difference. I don't have data for F ( I focus on A to D with more weight on A&B)



C1
18.52%
17.15%
1.37%


C2
19.67%
17.88%
1.79%


C3
20.82%
18.59%
2.23%


C4
22.06%
19.35%
2.71%


C5
23.23%
20.03%
3.20%


Grade
Interest Rate (p.a.)




D1
24.41%
20.59%
3.82%


D2
25.80%
21.41%
4.39%


D3
27.12%
22.14%
4.98%


D4
28.70%
22.96%
5.74%


D5
30.24%
23.81%
6.43%


Grade
Interest Rate (p.a.)




E1
31.81%
24.66%
7.15%


E2
33.95%
26.00%
7.95%


E3
35.33%
27.18%
8.15%


E4
36.64%
28.62%
8.02%


E5
38.25%
30.36%
7.89%

[777]

Old "F"s

F1 31.88%
F2 33.93%
F3 36.01%
F4 39.61%
F5 39.99%

New "F"s

F1 39.22%
F2 39.36%
F3 39.61%
F4 39.98%
F5 39.99%

[Bjauck]

The thing I don't like is that the fee is on gross interest ie before charge-offs. Under the new fees there seems to be little financial incentive to go hard to recover capital on poor loans. Agree. I think the service charge should be on gross interest only with a rebate for the service charge already levied on a note that is charged off. The rebate maximum would be the amount of the charge off. Later, if there is some percentage recovery of the charge-off then a corresponding amount of service charge could be re-instated.

[Saamee]

Why, Oh Why do Harmoney have so many Errors and Inaccuracies in their Back End Computer Systems??

Has anyone else had the same Email today?

8042

[Kelvin]

I didn't get that email but I too have been noticing several errors and inaccuracies.

I've got a loan in Arrears but shows $0.00 in the Amount in Arrears section :confused:

[Darchie]

I didn't get that email but I too have been noticing several errors and inaccuracies.

I've got a loan in Arrears but shows $0.00 in the Amount in Arrears section :confused:

No email about errors ever received here...
Arrears amounts have never crossed balanced or stacked up ever.....

[Finite]

I've got a loan in Arrears but shows $0.00 in the Amount in Arrears section :confused:

I've had that many times.
Harmoneys response : " the amount in arrears is less than 1 cent"

[RMJH]

Agree. I think the service charge should be on gross interest only with a rebate for the service charge already levied on a note that is charged off. The rebate maximum would be the amount of the charge off. Later, if there is some percentage recovery of the charge-off then a corresponding amount of service charge could be re-instated.
What makes it worse is having an interest based fee effectively front loads the charge because the early repayments are largely interest. For example on a three year loan just over half of Harmoney's total fees are earned in the first year so you are effectively pre-paying for the collection service.

[axe]

What makes it worse is having an interest based fee effectively front loads the charge because the early repayments are largely interest. For example on a three year loan just over half of Harmoney's total fees are earned in the first year so you are effectively pre-paying for the collection service.

I would guess most of the defaults would occur in the first year also?

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

If a loan defaults 58% of them happen happen in the first year.

Source - https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/investment-risks

i pulled the numbers from it and fitted the graph to their picture.

[777]

From the papers

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/80060374/concerns-raised-peertopeer-investors-do-not-understand-the-risk-they-take

[humvee]

Can some one check my maths on this - because to me it does not add up. Issued over 1 year ago the interest alone should have been $7+ How is it so little in arrears - with so little paid?

8046

[Darchie]

I say gross interest should be roughly $7.93 .. so minus whats received. Arrears should be more like approx $4.91

[Saamee]

Can some one check my maths on this - because to me it does not add up. Issued over 1 year ago the interest alone should have been $7+ How is it so little in arrears - with so little paid?

8046



Because the loan has been in default for a long time ( 1 Year ) ALL the payments have been processed against Interest Only....

Only there have been SO FEW payments made that there has been so little Interest Paid over the last 1 Year...

Expect this loan to be Written Off soon - not great news but that's business!!

[RMJH]

Can some one check my maths on this - because to me it does not add up. Issued over 1 year ago the interest alone should have been $7+ How is it so little in arrears - with so little paid?

8046
Agree makes no sense at the interest rate shown. Perhaps they came to an arrangement (a lower rate or interest holiday) because the borrower was struggling. Sometimes that is the best way to manage a poor loan. Pretty sure that I have noticed this before. Unlikely to be a computational error.

[humvee]

Agree makes no sense at the interest rate shown. Perhaps they came to an arrangement (a lower rate or interest holiday) because the borrower was struggling. Sometimes that is the best way to manage a poor loan. Pretty sure that I have noticed this before. Unlikely to be a computational error.
I can understand that happens but if that is what has happened shouldnt harmoney show that information to investors? based on info shown currently it does not make sense.

if that is the best way to recover the most money i dont have a problem with it. but that information should be openly shared with investors

[777]

One wonders where the $6495 monthly income goes.

[Kelvin]

Nice one Harmoney...
8047

[humvee]

Where can you rent in Auckland for $199 per month - Or less if you want to eat at all?

8048

[Soolaimon]

Where can you rent in Auckland for $199 per month - Or less if you want to eat at all?

8048

And it is 90% filled ????????

[Darchie]

And it is 90% filled ????????
OMG. Thats scary to think that many investors would accept those numbers, unless they say Oh there's gotta be another Harmoney data entry mistake !

[Knot]

OMG. Thats scary to think that many investors would accept those numbers, unless they say Oh there's gotta be another Harmoney data entry mistake !

If it's not wrong it is insane, if it is wrong then more concerns about the IT system at Harmoney.

Either is bad.

[Kees]

61 posts all on Harmoney are you affiliated to one of the other P2P platforms??

I have been invested in Harmoney since the beginning and have found no problems it seems you are either as above and stirring the sh#t or
are having a bad trot with Harmoney.
I bet it is the former in which case the mod should ban you.

[Knot]

61 posts all on Harmoney are you affiliated to one of the other P2P platforms??

I have been invested in Harmoney since the beginning and have found no problems it seems you are either as above and stirring the sh#t or
are having a bad trot with Harmoney.
I bet it is the former in which case the mod should ban you.

I take it you mean me? Not all of my posts are in the Harmoney thread, nor are they all about Harmoney.

I have no association with any other p2p platform apart from being an investor in loans.

Bad trot, nope but annoyed with them, yup. Many mistakes in loan details, poor stats, bad communication, and greed to name just a few reasons.

Check your facts next time before you speak.

[Bjauck]

Where can you rent in Auckland for $199 per month - Or less if you want to eat at all?

8048

Theyve been there for 6 years so presumably the LL is happy with whatever rent they get. Is there any way to tell if the borrower is self employed?

[Broke]

incomes that low are usually some sort of benefit @ 300pw.. look on the bright side, at least they have income security!

[Darchie]

61 posts all on Harmoney are you affiliated to one of the other P2P platforms??

I have been invested in Harmoney since the beginning and have found no problems it seems you are either as above and stirring the sh#t or
are having a bad trot with Harmoney.
I bet it is the former in which case the mod should ban you.

OMG Kees are you havin' a Bad Day?

[JohnMac]

If you have not found any problems with Harmony's systems then I can only think you are very naive. I have found numerous problems with their systems and I have been with them from the beginning as well. Even laid a complaint with FSCL regarding their method of calculating interest. I still have loans with them but am not investing in any new loans.

[permutation]

Here's an example of delayed processes, last night I invested in a note 64071. Before my investment there were 3 notes remaining, after my investment was accepted there were still 3 notes remaining.
As at 0847am today almost 12 hours after my investment there are still 3 notes remaining??

[Kelvin]

Here's an example of delayed processes, last night I invested in a note 64071. Before my investment there were 3 notes remaining, after my investment was accepted there were still 3 notes remaining.
As at 0847am today almost 12 hours after my investment there are still 3 notes remaining??

I'm in the same boat here. It's not the first time this stuck loan issue has happened to me either.

It's likely that our order will be rejected as in reality the loan has been 100% filled while the front-end is stuck on 3 notes remaining for some reason.

[Harvey Specter]

I have decided to start withdrawing my money. A few reason:

- my defaults seem very high - over 10% of capital invested. And we haven't even gone through a recession yet.
- churn is very high - my capital has been repaid and reinvested
- my returns are good at the moment but are basically the average RAR even though I have taken a higher risk profile
- my returns will drop to below 10% with the new fees
- there is a lot of effort required - have to log in 2+ times a day just to keep fully invested.
- investments are illiquid. no secondary market yet.

Thats all I can think of for now. I didn't put to much cash into it at this stage as I was just testing it and didn't want to lock to much up until the secondary market was created since this was effectively by 'bond' portfolio.

Will put my money back into yeild stocks. Div plus growth will hopefully be about 10% anyway and far more liquid. Will keep an eye on the other ones but they seem high effort too (need to keep check to see if any loans avaliable) and the returns look to be under 10%.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

So what was your investment levels - did you use single $25 amount or larger ? how much we roughly talking about ?

Its a good point in regards to liquidity.

For your other investments - are you talking about smartshares and stuff or other ?

My worry is the the sharemarket is fill of grannies pushing the price up due to the low bank deposit rates. Either its going to be housing or shares.

[Harvey Specter]

Mainly 1 note but I think I did a few 3's as well. I was just under $10k so the decision was to invest more to get into the next fee level, or start withdrawing.

I have a large portion of funds in very high risk start up investments (My Gamble bucket) and a mix of high risk and growth/yield NZX investments (Diversified equity bucket). My kiwisaver is in index funds. I will put this money, and the other money I had set aside for Harmoney into a yeild/low growth diversified bucket.

Sharemarket is full of Kiwisaver funds struggling to invest the constant flow of cash coming in.

[Bjauck]

I have decided to start withdrawing my money. A few reason:

- my defaults seem very high - over 10% of capital invested. And we haven't even gone through a recession yet.
- churn is very high - my capital has been repaid and reinvested
- my returns are good at the moment but are basically the average RAR even though I have taken a higher risk profile
- my returns will drop to below 10% with the new fees
- there is a lot of effort required - have to log in 2+ times a day just to keep fully invested.
- investments are illiquid. no secondary market yet.

Thats all I can think of for now. I didn't put to much cash into it at this stage as I was just testing it and didn't want to lock to much up until the secondary market was created since this was effectively by 'bond' portfolio.

Will put my money back into yeild stocks. Div plus growth will hopefully be about 10% anyway and far more liquid. Will keep an eye on the other ones but they seem high effort too (need to keep check to see if any loans avaliable) and the returns look to be under 10%.

Is that 10% estimate after tax?
Harmoney P2P is definitely at the risky end of a "fixed interest" portfolio and needs a high return as a result. Harmoney reckon the charge-off rate is under their forecast but your default rate does seem high, even after allowing for the fact that the first year of a loan normally has the largest default rate. Despite churn, if most of your loans are now beyond their first year, perhaps the return will have fewer charge-offs impacting it from now on?

Impact of a recession is an unknown. I know with my shares I have always suffered a paper loss at some stages of the market cycle, which is translated to an actual loss if I sell. I guess with Harmoney p2p you could try to reduce the impact of a future recession by taking money out as notes are repaid or by re-investing more into A & B grade notes (and then increase lower grade notes when you think a recession has peaked.)

As a fixed interest comparison the unsecured 5 year bonds just announced by IFT earn 4.9%pa gross interest and will be listed on the DX. With Harmoney's new fee structure, does the about 5% extra net interest earned fairly compensate for the extra risk?

[Harvey Specter]

Less than 10% is my guess at what my RAR would have been if the new fees had been in since the start. Probably reflects in part my high write offs.

Not sure why my write offs have been so high. But when you find out you don't understand an investment like you thought you did, time to get out.

[Harvey Specter]

Some stats on my portfolio:
8052
The first 10 loans I invested in:
8053

[Bjauck]

Less than 10% is my guess at what my RAR would have been if the new fees had been in since the start. Probably reflects in part my high write offs.

Not sure why my write offs have been so high. But when you find out you don't understand an investment like you thought you did, time to get out.

Some thought the 3-year terms were a safer bet than the 5 year terms - your portfolio seems to disagree with that.

At least you are "in business" so the charge-offs are more likely to be deductible. Otherwise if charge-offs are non-deductible your net after tax RAR would have been about 5% by my guesstimate or a RAR of 7.5% grossed up. Not particularly high given the risk and as you say in a non-recessionary period.

[scottwalshnz]

Some thought the 3-year terms were a safer bet than the 5 year terms - your portfolio seems to disagree with that.



I had that assumption to start with, however have found 5 year terms appear safer.
I've got two harmoney accounts (different entities), I've invested in similar risk profiles, but one is weighted more to 3-years and the other 5-years. I'm finding the RAR is much higher with the 5-year weighted account.

[RMJH]

Less than 10% is my guess at what my RAR would have been if the new fees had been in since the start. Probably reflects in part my high write offs.

Not sure why my write offs have been so high. But when you find out you don't understand an investment like you thought you did, time to get out.
Possibly not diversified enough? My rule of thumb is at least 200 loans for each grade - the more the better. I don't do E's or F's but would be wanting more like 300 of each if I did as the higher the risk the higher the volatility.

[Harvey Specter]

Possibly not diversified enough? My rule of thumb is at least 200 loans for each grade - the more the better. I don't do E's or F's but would be wanting more like 300 of each if I did as the higher the risk the higher the volatility.more diversification may have helped but I should have had enough that the benefit would be minimal. More loans should just push me even closer to the average RAR which I was close to anyway. It would interesting to know the platform RAR per grade.

I don't see why there is a need for so many in each grade - I think total loans regardless of grade is the key to diversification.

[Harvey Specter]

I had that assumption to start with, however have found 5 year terms appear safer.

Interesting

[Wsp]

An automatic withdrawal function would now be useful. Saves having to login to arrange each cash withdrawal payment.

[Chickens]

An automatic withdrawal function would now be useful. Saves having to login to arrange each cash withdrawal payment.

I agree. I will be using Squirrel Money's automated withdrawal feature from next month.

[Darchie]

I agree. I will be using Squirrel Money's automated withdrawal feature from next month.
Peeling out? If so, for any specific reason?

[Chickens]

Peeling out? If so, for any specific reason?

Not at all. After "peeling in" enthusiastically for the last couple of months I'm about to use the interest to meet a monthly expense (rates). In the words of JB@squirrel, "to synthesise an income".

(apologies for digressing from the topic of Harmoney)

[RMJH]

more diversification may have helped but I should have had enough that the benefit would be minimal. More loans should just push me even closer to the average RAR which I was close to anyway. It would interesting to know the platform RAR per grade.

I don't see why there is a need for so many in each grade - I think total loans regardless of grade is the key to diversification.

You got me thinking maybe I was being too cautious so I did some googling....
http://www.lendingmemo.com/risk-diversification-p2p-lending/

[kiwi_on_OE]

Here's an example of delayed processes, last night I invested in a note 64071. Before my investment there were 3 notes remaining, after my investment was accepted there were still 3 notes remaining.
As at 0847am today almost 12 hours after my investment there are still 3 notes remaining??

And it is still stuck. Had it before too. But continues to make me wonder about their processes.

[Harvey Specter]

You got me thinking maybe I was being too cautious so I did some googling....
http://www.lendingmemo.com/risk-diversification-p2p-lending/
That's great. Thanks for that. I would like to see a Harmoney version.

Dispute my higher risk, I think I did have enough loans to diversify. I think it also prices my point, that more loans would just result in reversion to the mean which is what I have seen occurring.

What is unknown is what is what is the RAR for each grade. If you look at the link you provided for the overseas version, B grade looked to have the highest, with the two riskiest grades being zero.

So potentially I could have been an outlier and been sitting on the red line, so more loans could have improved my position slightly, but statistally speaking, I was probably average so probably would have seen minimal difference. But with the new fee structure, the new average would have been lower so I have decided to put my money elsewhere.

I will probably still be invested here in a couple of years time as the loans do wind down, sound I do jump back in, I will probably pick a lower risk profile, which may give me a higher return.

Conclusion - I want to see RAR by grade.

[Darchie]

I've noticed far less activity on Harmoney during last few weekends ... anyone else noticed this change?
I read a few articles from mortgage site ... interesting that Heartland are taking up more of the loans & us (pesky or maybe unwanted!) Retail are taking remaining 26% ....
Also their article on secondary market...
I'd really like to see Monica's list ... wonder what's going to be offered!

http://www.mortgagerates.co.nz/peer-to-peer-lending.html

Hopefully that link shows up the page containing the various articles

[Halebop]

You got me thinking maybe I was being too cautious so I did some googling....
http://www.lendingmemo.com/risk-diversification-p2p-lending/

This is a basic lesson in stats and sample size. The higher default rates equates as greater volatility equates as a larger sample needed to do anthing like getting close to mean consistently.

This has been my concern with people "trying out" P2P with $1,000 or $2,000. The outcome is a random walk, not a test and learn.

The point these style of charts perhaps willfully miss is that the higher risks should equate to higher returns or why would you do it? I don't want to know when my returns have to reach zero, I want to know when my returns have to hit a risk adjusted benchmark?

The various "insurance" options P2P offer also fail to explain this clearly. $500,000 in a loan loss pool will be swamped by bad luck and understanding rather than protected with good science.

[humvee]

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by humvee http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?p=612437#post612437)
http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by humvee http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/...post-right.png (http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png)
Look at the extra employment information this site is showing that is not shown on the official harmoney dashboard
http://www.mortgagerates.co.nz/p2p-loans.html

Hi Monica

I think this post might have got missed amongst the others - Could this more detailed information be added into the loan screens please. Given its avaiable via RSS already it should not be to bigger change to include


Hi Humvee - nope it didn't get missed - we will be adding it to our API - and getting this through. We have a list of enhancements which we are delivering so its gone into the queue. Thanks for your continued support. Monica.mathis@harmoney.co.nz

Hi Monica

Has there been any progress on this or what is the likely timeframe?

[Bjauck]

Hi Monica

Has there been any progress on this or what is the likely timeframe? I don't think anyone from Harmoney has posted on this thread since they announced the new fees structure. Perhaps it would have been an opportunity for them to engage in some good investor relations, dispel any misconceptions and further explain and justify an increase in fees to be collected from investors. There are certainly non-fee issues such as this that they could address. Dan and Monica have not been online since 12/5 - 10 days ago.

[Saamee]

I don't think anyone from Harmoney has posted on this thread since they announced the new fees structure. Perhaps it would have been an opportunity for them to engage in some good investor relations, dispel any misconceptions and further explain and justify an increase in fees to be collected from investors. There are certainly non-fee issues such as this that they could address. Dan and Monica have not been online since 12/5 - 10 days ago.

I think you are too late.... I just saw Dan & Monica Exit Stage Left..... The heat got too much for them - ha ha ha

[Chickens]

I'm sure my "Gross Interest Received" has been increasing over the weekend (Sat & Sun), whereas it hasn't previously. Is this consistent with other users' observations?

If so, this suggests to me that a previously manual process has been automated.

[Saamee]

I'm sure my "Gross Interest Received" has been increasing over the weekend (Sat & Sun), whereas it hasn't previously. Is this consistent with other users' observations?

If so, this suggests to me that a previously manual process has been automated.

Yes. For the last 6 weeks I have been Withdrawing Funds at Weekends. I made at least 3 this weekend.

Funds coming in on a Saturday I can understand with Friday's payments being processed over night and credited on Saturday.... but Sunday too?

Maybe some Borrowers are paying late. And if they are with the same bank as Harmoney the funds show immediately and therefore can get Credited on a Sunday?

[Art]

I'm sure my "Gross Interest Received" has been increasing over the weekend (Sat & Sun), whereas it hasn't previously. Is this consistent with other users' observations?

If so, this suggests to me that a previously manual process has been automated.

I'm pretty sure funds have always trickled into my account on Thursdays to Sundays, its Mon - Wed when deposits are infrequent and are usually repayments (re-writes presumably).

[777]

Art is correct. Wednesday thru Sunday repayments and interest show. I have had he odd one on a Monday but assume it is just a late Sunday one.

[humvee]

I'm sure my "Gross Interest Received" has been increasing over the weekend (Sat & Sun), whereas it hasn't previously. Is this consistent with other users' observations?

If so, this suggests to me that a previously manual process has been automated.

I know I got 9 Early repayments/Rewrites on Saturday.

And over the weekend Early Repayments + Principal + Interest was greater then I could find new loans to invest in.

Based on a reply to an email I received - I believe they most likely had people in the office on Saturday at least

[Darchie]

I know I got 9 Early repayments/Rewrites on Saturday.

And over the weekend Early Repayments + Principal + Interest was greater then I could find new loans to invest in.

Based on a reply to an email I received - I believe they most likely had people in the office on Saturday at least

Many months ago i was told by Harmoney that a person comes in over weekend & manually attends to various payments ... releases those that've been held up ... general tidy up, so forth .. hence the activity on Sunday
Yes seems to be a big drop in loans being listed up over weekends ...
& total agree basically interest & principal seems to be paid out to us mainly Thursday to Saturday

[humvee]

Can some one check my maths on this - because to me it does not add up. Issued over 1 year ago the interest alone should have been $7+ How is it so little in arrears - with so little paid?

8046

The harmoney staff I have been corresponding with are very adamant that the numbers shown on this loan are correct. That the interest rate has not been discounted and that the borrower is paying the 27.18% interest shown. No matter how add it up I cannot come up with anything even close to what is shown.

Before I send them a 7th email in the chain about it - can anyone explain what I am getting wrong or how the harmoney numbers shown are correct

[Saamee]

The harmoney staff I have been corresponding with are very adamant that the numbers shown on this loan are correct. That the interest rate has not been discounted and that the borrower is paying the 27.18% interest shown. No matter how add it up I cannot come up with anything even close to what is shown.

Before I send them a 7th email in the chain about it - can anyone explain what I am getting wrong or how the harmoney numbers shown are correct


Humvee, In my humble opinion - It IS wrong. You should have received at least ( I make ) $6.79 Interest over the last 12 months PLUS Capital share...

[Darchie]

The harmoney staff I have been corresponding with are very adamant that the numbers shown on this loan are correct. That the interest rate has not been discounted and that the borrower is paying the 27.18% interest shown. No matter how add it up I cannot come up with anything even close to what is shown.

Before I send them a 7th email in the chain about it - can anyone explain what I am getting wrong or how the harmoney numbers shown are correct

I reckon they are wrong ... tell em to clean their glass'

I may be being quite basic with my calculation but. To me it's more like $4.76 arrears like:
9.3.15 to 9.3.16 is a year
25.00 x 27.18% = 6.795
Then 30 april & another 23days in this month
25.00 x 27.18% ÷ 365 x 53 days = .9866
6.795 plus .9866 = $7.78 - $3.02 interest already paid is $4.76 interest owing & $25.00 principal owing ...

[Darchie]

If your subject had paid off some principal then it would've made the calculation very different. ..

[Monica@Harmoney]

Hi Monica

Has there been any progress on this or what is the likely timeframe?

Yes - it's in the pipeline and going through testing. Will keep you informed as I can. Monica

[Saamee]

RAR's just been updated ....

[JohnMac]

The harmoney staff I have been corresponding with are very adamant that the numbers shown on this loan are correct. That the interest rate has not been discounted and that the borrower is paying the 27.18% interest shown. No matter how add it up I cannot come up with anything even close to what is shown.

Before I send them a 7th email in the chain about it - can anyone explain what I am getting wrong or how the harmoney numbers shown are correct

My calculation is after 14 months - you should receive $6.75 in interest if the borrower paid monthly and at the beginning of the period and not the end. The reality is that the borrower may have paid weekly and not monthly or any other erratic schedule this will make a difference. The above calculation was done with the traditional Excel Cumipmt calculation. Unfortunately Harmoney do not use the standard method of calculating interest. They use the Secant method (Google it) which they maintain is more suitable to erratic payment and or early payments. In all my calculations this method always resulted in lower interest being earned on all my loans that I tested. I spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the secant method without success. I did lodge an inquiry with FSCL and after much investigation they came back and said that although not common many financial institutions use this method and it is quiet acceptable.

[humvee]

My calculation is after 14 months - you should receive $6.75 in interest if the borrower paid monthly and at the beginning of the period and not the end. The reality is that the borrower may have paid weekly and not monthly or any other erratic schedule this will make a difference. The above calculation was done with the traditional Excel Cumipmt calculation. Unfortunately Harmoney do not use the standard method of calculating interest. They use the Secant method (Google it) which they maintain is more suitable to erratic payment and or early payments. In all my calculations this method always resulted in lower interest being earned on all my loans that I tested. I spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the secant method without success. I did lodge an inquiry with FSCL and after much investigation they came back and said that although not common many financial institutions use this method and it is quiet acceptable.


I finally received an answer that makes sense - and mine and pretty much every one elses maths here was approx correct.

"I just spoke to our Data Scientist and he says that the reason this loan is not adding up properly is because the borrower successfully filed for "Unforeseen Hardship" so we've amended their contract to allow them to catch up on their payments.

Currently, we do not have any field to identify these loans on the dashboard although we're planning on it in the near future.


I'll speak to our Product Manager, Dan York, about getting a field included on the dashboard so this is more apparent to investors which loans have successfully filed for hardship."

[JohnMac]

I finally received an answer that makes sense - and mine and pretty much every one elses maths here was approx correct.

"I just spoke to our Data Scientist and he says that the reason this loan is not adding up properly is because the borrower successfully filed for "Unforeseen Hardship" so we've amended their contract to allow them to catch up on their payments.

Currently, we do not have any field to identify these loans on the dashboard although we're planning on it in the near future.


I'll speak to our Product Manager, Dan York, about getting a field included on the dashboard so this is more apparent to investors which loans have successfully filed for hardship."




I presume from the attachment he was only $1.73 in arrears after 14 months therefore you would have only been short of the interest that you should have received on the $1.73. That would not have brought it up to anywhere near to $6.75? Whatever arrangement Harmoney has made with the borrower should not impact on what you should be earning. Unless there is something else that I am not aware of.

[Harvey Specter]

RAR updated and has increased.

Mine is also up but not much as the average so my RAR is now below average. I seem to have been overly hurt by write-offs so clearly not diversified enough.

Based on my experience, don't play this game unless you invest more than $10k. Put s you into the next fee group too. If you are below this, top up before the fee increase in July or withdraw. I may have been a bit hasty given in was only trialling and more to invest but I seem to have been on the unlucky side on average.

Has anyone got 6 figure s invested and In private negotiations for an even lower fee?

[humvee]

I presume from the attachment he was only $1.73 in arrears after 14 months therefore you would have only been short of the interest that you should have received on the $1.73. That would not have brought it up to anywhere near to $6.75? Whatever arrangement Harmoney has made with the borrower should not impact on what you should be earning. Unless there is something else that I am not aware of.

The issue is the arrears is ~$3+ less then it should be for the interest alone for that time period at that rate.

I am unsure of the arrangement has been reached with the borrower ie interest rate reduction, no interest, or interest freeze

but from the numbers I have it would appear it involved weaving or writing off ~$1284 of interest over the entire loan of which ~$3.02 would have been my .2358% share of interest.

I don't necessarily have any problem with the arrangement itself - if it recovers the money its better then writing it off


The problem here is not the $3, The issue is the answer I received after my 6th email should have been the answer I received after my 1st email about the loan - Infact I should not have needed to email I should have been able to see it on the dashboard.

Harmoney need to make improvements to the information on the dashboard as in cases like this it is hard to tell if it is incorrect - or as it turned out - critical information that we don't know about is missing - meaning maybe the dashboard is correct.

The Biggest improvement however would be to make ALL the dashboard information available via the CSV export

[Darchie]

Has anyone got 6 figure s invested and In private negotiations for an even lower fee?[/QUOTE]

The thought of the ability to move into another tier was an aspect i wondered about as well ... be interested to hear any feedback on this as well....

[JohnMac]

Has anyone got 6 figure s invested and In private negotiations for an even lower fee?

The thought of the ability to move into another tier was an aspect i wondered about as well ... be interested to hear any feedback on this as well....[/QUOTE]

I would have expected another two tiers >75000 10% and > 100000 5%.

I haven't tried to negotiate a better rate as I am no longer reinvesting. I have been investing in A's then B's and some C's and fortunately have had only 2 defaults. I have had a large number of rewrites which I suppose you can expect from the A crowd. This has kept my RAR average below the retail RAR.

With the new rates and investing in loans that only pay 9.99% and then getting pinged with 15% plus the chance the loan will default is to my mind not worth the effort.

Before anyone says the A loans are safe as houses I have one that was taken out in September and they only paid one installment but hasn't been marked as default yet so my faith in A loans is waning.

My other concern is that when looking at the other peer to peer sites new loans trickle in very slowly whereas with Harmoney there is no shortage. Is this because Harmoney is the lead player in this market or is it because they offer loans to anyone and everyone?

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

Hay, im no whizz and i enjoyed trying to find information about secant. If a person pays you back early is that not a good thing ? as the payments upto that date have an interest component calculated out to the end of loan. Once you get your money back you can lend it out again. As the interest is preloaded to the front of the loan.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

looking at the https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Performance-Graphs/May16-Update/rar-by-loans-big.png

one could assume that there wouldnt be many over 100k in harmoney, unless they invested more than $25 per unit. The chart dosnt appear to be active loans but perhaps includes rewrites.

so 4000 loans maybe actually be like 3200 * $25 actives = $80000

so i pick maybe only 4 lenders over 100,000 perhaps acording to the graph?

[Bjauck]

...
I would have expected another two tiers >75000 10% and > 100000 5%.
I think they should have a flat commission on interest. Why do they need to have separate tiers? Each loan is is divided into $25 notes anyway and the costs of administering each note of a certain grade should be the same. Where is the extra cost involved in dealing with a $5000 investor as compared to $25000 investor? I don't think it would be in the administration and collection of the $25 notes. Maybe they should consider having a platform fee for investors with a fixed % commission on the interest earned on notes.

The platform fee could be deducted from the gross interest payments as they come in, with the remaining surplus becoming net interest available for the investor.

[winner69]

Wonder what Heartland pay with them putting zillions through the platform?

[777]

looking at the https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Performance-Graphs/May16-Update/rar-by-loans-big.png

one could assume that there wouldnt be many over 100k in harmoney, unless they invested more than $25 per unit. The chart dosnt appear to be active loans but perhaps includes rewrites.

so 4000 loans maybe actually be like 3200 * $25 actives = $80000

so i pick maybe only 4 lenders over 100,000 perhaps acording to the graph?

I wonder how many actually only invest in $25/loan. I had $40000 invested at one stage and my smallest investment was $175 and the highest $625. Most though were $250 to $500.

[Bjauck]

I wonder how many actually only invest in $25/loan. I had $40000 invested at one stage and my smallest investment was $175 and the highest $625. Most though were $250 to $500.Did lack of diversification concern you?

[JohnMac]

Hay, im no whizz and i enjoyed trying to find information about secant. If a person pays you back early is that not a good thing ? as the payments upto that date have an interest component calculated out to the end of loan. Once you get your money back you can lend it out again. As the interest is preloaded to the front of the loan.

I spent a considerable amount of time corresponding with Harmoney regarding the Secant method vs the traditional method of calculating interest and the Secant method resulted in less interest. Harmoneys argument was that the borrower was allowed to pay the loan off early or in erratic periods which was why the interest was less. The traditional method presumed the loan would be paid off weekly or monthly etc. I wasn't happy with their explanation and asked the finance watchdog to confirm that this was acceptable. And as I said they were happy with it. I still don't understand Secant. Harmoney did supply me with an example of a Secant loan so I was able to compare the two methods together. Note that I was comparing the loans as if they would last their full 36 month or 60 month period. I agree that if the borrower paid the loan off quicker a significant amount of interest would be paid but then again that applies to both methods.

[Darchie]

I googled that Secant method & it is indeed confusing .. i couldn't find anything much i could relate to!
That example harmoney supplied might be worth me also asking for! By looks this method does make quite a difference to amount of interest earned over larger principal amounts and years!

[JohnMac]

I googled that Secant method & it is indeed confusing .. i couldn't find anything much i could relate to!
That example harmoney supplied might be worth me also asking for! By looks this method does make quite a difference to amount of interest earned over larger principal amounts and years!

More than happy to send it to you but not sure that Harmoney would be happy with me if I did or if there is any privacy issues. If you ask Mark Bardi to send the same example he sent me I am sure he won't mind ( I am sure he will know who I am, I don't think there has been too many people causing a fuss about their Secant method) . I must admit I did not try too hard to understand the Secant method as it appeared to be more focussed on statistics that finance.

[777]

Did lack of diversification concern you?

Well I had 160 loans and to date 4 "write offs". I have 2 in arrears but both are paying each month and simply behind so not too concerned about them yet.
Gradually divesting and down to 60 loans.

Same diversification as someone with $4000 with 160 loans with $25/loan.

[Harvey Specter]

Hay, im no whizz and i enjoyed trying to find information about secant. If a person pays you back early is that not a good thing ? as the payments upto that date have an interest component calculated out to the end of loan. Once you get your money back you can lend it out again. As the interest is preloaded to the front of the loan.The fact interest is preloaded is irrelevant as you continually reinvest your money, you are getting interest on they full amount you have invested. There is no early repayment or prepaid interest on early repayment.

However, defaults are more likely to happen in the first year. So what churn results in is all your bad loans default, and all your good loans repaying so you reinvest that money into more loans, some of which will default. So churn increases your chance of hitting a bad loan as you are not harvesting the good loan for the full 3-5 years.

[RMJH]

RAR updated and has increased.

Mine is also up but not much as the average so my RAR is now below average. I seem to have been overly hurt by write-offs so clearly not diversified enough.

Based on my experience, don't play this game unless you invest more than $10k. Put s you into the next fee group too. If you are below this, top up before the fee increase in July or withdraw. I may have been a bit hasty given in was only trialling and more to invest but I seem to have been on the unlucky side on average.

Has anyone got 6 figure s invested and In private negotiations for an even lower fee?

Yes but I don't have a problem with the fees. When you look at other managed investments you can pay a lot more for a lot less legwork. I want this market to grow so I can invest more with less effort and get good information to refine use of filters and diversification. Competition will trim fees in due course if they prove to be excessive.

[kiwi_on_OE]

I googled that Secant method & it is indeed confusing .. i couldn't find anything much i could relate to!
That example harmoney supplied might be worth me also asking for! By looks this method does make quite a difference to amount of interest earned over larger principal amounts and years!

I previously missed this chat about the interest calculations etc. From what I see Secant is a method for determining the interest rate paid from the amounts that have been paid, not vice versa.

Harmoney state in a more than one of their documents eg. the Investor Agreement, that interest is calculated daily on the outstanding balance of a loan account and is payable monthly in arrears.

So if you look at the monthly statements they send out you should be able to see, and confirm, loan balances, all the loan repayments, interest accruals etc. You won't be able to go back for the whole of the loan, but you should be able to see, and confirm, what has happened since Dec last year.

I would be very interested to see the balances, payments, interest etc. for this loan since Dec if the numbers don't match.

[kiwi_on_OE]

Anyone heard any rumours of Harmoney cutting interest rates? I see an F4 loan, 60174, at a rate of 39.61%. But I thought F4s were 39.98%, F3s at 39.61%?

[Saamee]

Anyone heard any rumours of Harmoney cutting interest rates? I see an F4 loan, 60174, at a rate of 39.61%. But I thought F4s were 39.98%, F3s at 39.61%?

Current Borrower Rates = 8066


Previous Borrower Rates = 8067


Just guessing, another Harmoney system error?

[Darchie]

Looks like this F4 has been given the F3 interest rate ... Wonder if Harmoney will be looking into fixing this error?

[kiwi_on_OE]

Looks like this F4 has been given the F3 interest rate ... Wonder if Harmoney will be looking into fixing this error?

60174 isn't a number that is consistent with the current loans either. Doubting myself now, but I tried to be sure and thought I triple checked. If it was a system error, maybe it was an old loan that popped up.

I sort of get a feeling Harmoney is smoke and mirrors, or maybe manually maintained spreadsheets. Yikes.

[winner69]

I sort of get a feeling Harmoney is smoke and mirrors, or maybe manually maintained spreadsheets. Yikes.

.....as long as that magical person keeps coming in on the weekends you be OK

Reminds me of Grimm's Fairy Stories - the one about The Elves and the Shoemaker. That was a nice story.

[Saamee]

60174

I sort of get a feeling Harmoney is smoke and mirrors, or maybe manually maintained spreadsheets. Yikes.


Yes. Here too. Often felt it's like logging into "Alice in Wonderland" aka Smoke and Mirrors :)

[Darchie]

Jeepers its one that relates to equivalent numbering from around 3rd week in March .... so even then i think it's outside of the time they're allowed to list a loan up or not!
But also tho that doesn't answer the F4 with the F3 interest Rate!

[Saamee]

Wow. This week I am getting many loans repaid early from Harmoney. Is anyone else?

However I never seem to be able to tell which loans they are, that have been repaid early by Harmoney using the Dashboard!

Can anybody advise how to view early repaid loans?

[777]

They provide a downloadable report which you can use. If a loan had a balance yesterday and not one today then it has been written off or repaid.

[Darchie]

Re writes are VERY prominen of late . .. especially in to higher risk grades ... maybe the borrowers are being offered a rewrite into a lower interest bracket.

[Darchie]

Wow. This week I am getting many loans repaid early from Harmoney. Is anyone else?

However I never seem to be able to tell which loans they are, that have been repaid early by Harmoney using the Dashboard!

Can anybody advise how to view early repaid loans?

When i click on Reports: set it to open into the paid off report ... so just flick done and can see what prn is outstanding ...,
Yeah. They're coming in thick n fast!

[Saamee]

When i click on Reports: set it to open into the paid off report ... so just flick done and can see what prn is outstanding ...,
Yeah. They're coming in thick n fast!

Very strange here..

Reports > Download All > ( CSV) ( I have had 3 x loans paid off this week already > Report only shows up to MAR 16??



Loan ID
Date
Status
Grade


LAI-00060252
25/03/2016
Paid Off
B3


LAI-00060190
24/03/2016
Paid Off
B2


LAI-00060013
22/03/2016
Paid Off
A4


LAI-00052632
3/01/2016
Paid Off
C3

[Darchie]

Now a F3 @ 39.99% 64280

[Darchie]

Your 60190 i had as well shows me it was paid off on 8 april

[777]

Your 60190 i had as well shows me it was paid off on 8 april

I think he has quoted the date issued dates.

[Darchie]

Yep true ... but been quite a few loans repaid around a month or under!
May be they're just like me .... can't stand to owe money!

[Saamee]

Yep true ... but been quite a few loans repaid around a month or under!
May be they're just like me .... can't stand to owe money!

Guys - Yes > This truly show the smarts of Harmoney reporting....


Was the sole Column for Start Date of End Date? It does not specify!

Yes I was looking for Loan end date...... ( Repaid date )

I still am NO clearer....

Honestly - Long may all my Loans get repaid early so I can distribute everywhere else but here again...

[Saamee]

I think he has quoted the date issued dates.

Hey 777

Where are you picking up the date of 08th April from???

[Saamee]

I think he has quoted the date issued dates.

Interesting...... Clarifies everything!

The below is Reporting from Lending Crowd on Closed Loans!!

( Now which company would rather have your funds with on Trust \ Ease of Reporting levels ?? )






Opened
Closed
Principal received
Interest received**


LN000-000-083
A2
Personal
60 months
11.87%
$xx.00
24/12/2015
21/05/2016
$xx.00
$80.67


LN000-010-229
B1
Personal
60 months
14.79%
$xx.00
07/01/2016
22/04/2016
$xx.00
$21.20


LN000-011-362
B2
Personal
36 months
18.74%
$xx.00
10/03/2016
31/03/2016
$xx.00
$2.55


LN000-011-886
B1
Personal
60 months
14.79%
$xx.00
05/04/2016
30/04/2016

[777]

Hey 777

Where are you picking up the date of 08th April from???

That was Darchie..

[Saamee]

That was Darchie..

So it was ;)

[777]

If you click on the repaid loan in the reports section it has the date of the last payment received.

[Darchie]

That date shows as their last payment date...
Go to reports.
Paid off
Open loan number 60190
From here you can see most of their info & toggle over to see what was entered when they applied for their loan

My REAL gripe is one cannot see a date on the reports when the loan was written off ... this date should show here!
,,

[Saamee]

That date shows as their last payment date...
Go to reports.
Paid off
Open loan number 60190
From here you can see most of their info & toggle over to see what was entered when they applied for their loan

My REAL gripe is one cannot see a date on the reports when the loan was written off ... this date should show here!
,,

Yep. That was ( and always has been ) the one thing I have wanted to know regarding Paid Off loans - and the only way I know to find it is to Call the Call Center in Fiji!

[Bjauck]

That date shows as their last payment date...
Go to reports.
Paid off
Open loan number 60190
From here you can see most of their info & toggle over to see what was entered when they applied for their loan

My REAL gripe is one cannot see a date on the reports when the loan was written off ... this date should show here!
,,
I thought that notes were automatically charged-off 3 months from the last payment. The loan details give last payment date. So for example, if there was a payment on 24th February 2016 then in the absence of subsequent payments, the loan would be charged off on 25th May 2016. It would still be good to have the charge-off date date in the report.

[Darchie]

I thought that notes were automatically charged-off 3 months from the last payment. The loan details give last payment date. So for example, if there was a payment on 24th February 2016 then in the absence of subsequent payments, the loan would be charged off on 25th May 2016. It would still be good to have the charge-off date date in the report.

The write off i believe can happen at various times .. like if the borrower declares bankruptcy then HM usually writes off at that stage ... or if borrowers show a glimmer that once sorted they could make some payments down the track then the loan will just sit ... so no hard number of days on writing off. .
These variables may be better described by Harmoney...

[kiwi_on_OE]

Have Harmoney lost their "valid users" spreadsheet, or have they only deleted my row from the spreadsheet? When I try to log in I get a message saying they're still validating my details. Muppets.

[Darchie]

Have ya got it Sorted?

[kiwi_on_OE]

Yeah, working again now.

[Kelvin]

Does anyone know if there's a Harmoney API out there? I'm pretty sure there's something but can't find any documentation on it.

I wanna do things like see any loan listings, my available cash balance etc. without logging in :p

[Darchie]

I placed a comment on LC thread and really it should have gone here ... it was referring to LC but probably more harmoney content ...
So Kelvin I'll reply to your comment here:

Yep I'm also increasing my Harmoney loans with a daily sturdy push, up to and including 12th ..... but am absolutely and Totally Unsure if I'll carry on with them .... at say a PRN back in and Interest out or just unwind the whole lot ...

I've HM asked about ability to have further tiers... for larger balances ... but Nah it's not a happening thing...
I reckon their current 26% of retail will drop .. but not sure that'll worry them as their wholesale will just hover the difference up.

[permutation]

With 75%+ of the loans taken up by institutions, is this really P2P lending?.. or just becoming another finance company.

[Bjauck]

...Yep I'm also increasing my Harmoney loans with a daily sturdy push, up to and including 12th ..... but am absolutely and Totally Unsure if I'll carry on with them .... at say a PRN back in and Interest out or just unwind the whole lot ... As the date approaches when the new higher fees apply, it will be interesting to see of the number of available loans to invest in will drop, to be followed by a surge after the cut-off.

[Darchie]

As the date approaches when the new higher fees apply, it will be interesting to see of the number of available loans to invest in will drop, to be followed by a surge after the cut-off.

Well that's a possibility. (Hope not though!) .. but if it happens it'd be quite obvious one would think ..... but if so I'd then start to wonder and question what & how loans are selected for wholesale or retail!

[Harvey Specter]

With 75%+ of the loans taken up by institutions, is this really P2P lending?.. or just becoming another finance company.Its basically just a front end for institutions to get into the higher risk finance sector.

[Art]

better put alotta notes per loan then. Auto invest probably wont be available for a long time

From the latest newsletter it looks like it might be closer than we thought.

[mlt322]

With 75%+ of the loans taken up by institutions, is this really P2P lending?.. or just becoming another finance company.

Good call perm

[Saamee]

Anyone else take the time to reply to the Email survey sent out by Harmoneys CEO today?

I gave them a '2' out of 10!

8092

[Kees]

I gave them a 10 out of 10 have had no problem and happy with the returns.

[777]

A big fat nought.


There is only two answers, 0 or 10. You will or you won't. Maybe or maybe not is rubbish.

[beetills]

Chris Lee on his thread Market News seems to be quite happy with his experience with Harmoney.

[Darchie]

I hit the delete key.. thinking it needed another question addedto the survey....
Being:
Are you happy with the new fees percentages!

[Finite]

I gave them "1"
Reason : lack of promised secondary market.

I see no one else here on this thread who seems to be concerned by this short coming.
Am I the only one who sees this lack of liquidity as a major short coming?

[Harvey Specter]

I gave them "1"
Reason : lack of promised secondary market.

I see no one else here on this thread who seems to be concerned by this short coming.
Am I the only one who sees this lack of liquidity as a major short coming?part of my reason to start with drawing though not the biggest. I focused on 3 year loans due to that though.

[Harvey Specter]

Chris Lee on his thread Market News seems to be quite happy with his experience with Harmoney.

I dont think he has done enough research:


I hope that Harmoney’s credit score is reduced for such borrowers when they, and shareholder Heartland Bank, observe people agreeing to repay an old loan by initiating a new larger loan.From what I can tell, harmoney actively promotes it and potentially gives people a better rating now that they have a payment history.

[maknz_st]

A big fat nought.


There is only two answers, 0 or 10. You will or you won't. Maybe or maybe not is rubbish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter)

[maknz_st]

The Harmoney loans really are drying up by the looks. Nothing on the marketplace as of writing. Doing a last bit of investing before the fee change, where I'll start peeling out.

[Saamee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter)

Thanks for that info. An Interesting read.

I along wiht the majority of others would be classed as DETRACTORS!

[Saamee]

So what's happening with "Lending Club" over in the US?

Read on below:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-07/desperate-lending-club-raises-interest-rates-encourage-investors-postpones-sharehold

[Darchie]

Loan. 64997. This is a real godie .... onthly repayments. 0.00.
A freeby?

[Darchie]

Just sent an email to Mark Bardi. And got ...
"Hi -

As of Friday, 3 June, I am no longer working on the Investor Services team at Harmoney"

Along with other pple to contact ...

Has he left or moved within HM? Anyone else heard?

[Saamee]

Just sent an email to Mark Bardi. And got ...
"Hi -

As of Friday, 3 June, I am no longer working on the Investor Services team at Harmoney"

Along with other pple to contact ...

Has he left or moved within HM? Anyone else heard?

Have you called him yet Darchie? His DDI is / was 09 555 8326

[Darchie]

He's left... Evidently. Gone back to USA

[Darchie]

Another loan listed ... with ZERO. Monthly repayments A1. 64996

The other loan this morning still was warmly received by oher investors!!!

[mp52]

So what's happening with "Lending Club" over in the US?

The CEO Renaud Laplanche resigned over dodgy handling of loans sold to a large investor and the stock took a dive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/business/lending-club-a-story-stock-that-skimped-on-the-details.html?ref=business

[Saamee]

TSB Bank is now also investing into \ thru Harmoney... It would appear

http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/81977/gareth-vaughan-argues-tsb-should-disclose-details-its-relationship-p2p-lender-harmoney

[Broke]

we should be more confident that the big banks are dipping in.. we only invest in small chunks of cash, which is a risk for us.. Its good to know a bank is sharing the risk

[WingingIt]

there are currently three loans on the platforms that are re-writes. its says the previous previous loan pay off amount was $00.00. Can this ne right?

[Darchie]

there are currently three loans on the platforms that are re-writes. its says the previous previous loan pay off amount was $00.00. Can this ne right?

There's been quite a number of these during the day

REWRITE
PREVIOUS LOAN PAYOFF:$0.00

[maknz_st]

I wonder if the lack of loans is the high demand from lenders wanting to get as much in as possible before the fee hike, or Harmoney purposefully holding back loans until the fee hike.

I was rather hoping to get a little more in before Monday, but there aren't nearly enough loans to bother.

[Linuxluver]

First post.

I've been investing with Harmoney since October. One of the issues I raised with them early on was their fees seemed to be out line with the risk.

Currently:

They assess the applications and grade the loans.
We invest.
Harmoney takes a fee that is a percentage of the CAPITAL.....and unrelated to the actual performance of the loan. Good or bad, they get their fee. So where is the incentive to rigorously assess risk in grading the loans? It appeared to be a moral imperative only. Only indirectly do they suffer as investors back off IF the grading of loans wasn't in line with actual risk - in aggregate. But we would not know that for years, possibly.

Under the new fee structure, Harmoney is in the risk pool right along with us. If the loans perform badly....we don't get any interest...and Harmoney doesn't get any fees. Hurrah!

As for the new fees, there is incentive to invest more and pay lower fees. I'm already well over the $10,000 threshold and should pay 17.5% instead of 20% of interest. I'm also provisionally assuming we can deduct their fee from our earnings for tax purposes. So we pay less tax on the gross interest. That's good.

Re-writes? I like them. They are a chance to get back - in full - the amount loaned to a lender long before the 36 months of 60 months elapses. Good. In my view, that improves my liquidity, if only by accident.

But re-writes are also necessary when a loan is topped up. Each top-up is - or should be - a chance to re-assess that borrower. Are they headed off the rails? Will they go into a death spiral long before the term of the loan is up? If loans were just topped up without re-writes, I'd be very worried. My money could be locked in for a ride down the plug-hole to a borrower who thinks the solution to too much debt is more debt. Re-grading them along the way would be irrelevant if I can't get my money out. No thanks. I love re-writes.

I rarely (almost never, but not quite) lend money to anyone asking for the $35,000 cap. They have nowhere left to go if they run into trouble. At least if someone runs into trouble at $30,000, they can go for a re-write....and I can get my money back and not lend them any on their new, improved $35,000 last dance.

Maybe I'm missing something....but I'm seeing people upset with what I think are some of the best features of the way Harmoney operates and the upcoming direct alignment of their rewards with the same risk we all face in lending the money.

If I've gone wrong somewhere.....please tell me. :-)

[axe]

Hi, Welcome to the forum. :) I too like that the fees are part of the interest payment and it should mean harmoney strive to put through strong loan applicants.


First post.

I've been investing with Harmoney since October. One of the issues I raised with them early on was their fees seemed to be out line with the risk.

Currently:

They assess the applications and grade the loans.
We invest.
Harmoney takes a fee that is a percentage of the CAPITAL.....and unrelated to the actual performance of the loan. Good or bad, they get their fee. So where is the incentive to rigorously assess risk in grading the loans? It appeared to be a moral imperative only. Only indirectly do they suffer as investors back off IF the grading of loans wasn't in line with actual risk - in aggregate. But we would not know that for years, possibly.

Under the new fee structure, Harmoney is in the risk pool right along with us. If the loans perform badly....we don't get any interest...and Harmoney doesn't get any fees. Hurrah!

As for the new fees, there is incentive to invest more and pay lower fees. I'm already well over the $10,000 threshold and should pay 17.5% instead of 20% of interest. I'm also provisionally assuming we can deduct their fee from our earnings for tax purposes. So we pay less tax on the gross interest. That's good.

Re-writes? I like them. They are a chance to get back - in full - the amount loaned to a lender long before the 36 months of 60 months elapses. Good. In my view, that improves my liquidity, if only by accident.

But re-writes are also necessary when a loan is topped up. Each top-up is - or should be - a chance to re-assess that borrower. Are they headed off the rails? Will they go into a death spiral long before the term of the loan is up? If loans were just topped up without re-writes, I'd be very worried. My money could be locked in for a ride down the plug-hole to a borrower who thinks the solution to too much debt is more debt. Re-grading them along the way would be irrelevant if I can't get my money out. No thanks. I love re-writes.

I rarely (almost never, but not quite) lend money to anyone asking for the $35,000 cap. They have nowhere left to go if they run into trouble. At least if someone runs into trouble at $30,000, they can go for a re-write....and I can get my money back and not lend them any on their new, improved $35,000 last dance.

Maybe I'm missing something....but I'm seeing people upset with what I think are some of the best features of the way Harmoney operates and the upcoming direct alignment of their rewards with the same risk we all face in lending the money.

If I've gone wrong somewhere.....please tell me. :-)

[RMJH]

First post.

I've been investing with Harmoney since October. One of the issues I raised with them early on was their fees seemed to be out line with the risk.

Currently:

They assess the applications and grade the loans.
We invest.
Harmoney takes a fee that is a percentage of the CAPITAL.....and unrelated to the actual performance of the loan. Good or bad, they get their fee. So where is the incentive to rigorously assess risk in grading the loans? It appeared to be a moral imperative only. Only indirectly do they suffer as investors back off IF the grading of loans wasn't in line with actual risk - in aggregate. But we would not know that for years, possibly.

Under the new fee structure, Harmoney is in the risk pool right along with us. If the loans perform badly....we don't get any interest...and Harmoney doesn't get any fees. Hurrah!

As for the new fees, there is incentive to invest more and pay lower fees. I'm already well over the $10,000 threshold and should pay 17.5% instead of 20% of interest. I'm also provisionally assuming we can deduct their fee from our earnings for tax purposes. So we pay less tax on the gross interest. That's good.

Re-writes? I like them. They are a chance to get back - in full - the amount loaned to a lender long before the 36 months of 60 months elapses. Good. In my view, that improves my liquidity, if only by accident.

But re-writes are also necessary when a loan is topped up. Each top-up is - or should be - a chance to re-assess that borrower. Are they headed off the rails? Will they go into a death spiral long before the term of the loan is up? If loans were just topped up without re-writes, I'd be very worried. My money could be locked in for a ride down the plug-hole to a borrower who thinks the solution to too much debt is more debt. Re-grading them along the way would be irrelevant if I can't get my money out. No thanks. I love re-writes.

I rarely (almost never, but not quite) lend money to anyone asking for the $35,000 cap. They have nowhere left to go if they run into trouble. At least if someone runs into trouble at $30,000, they can go for a re-write....and I can get my money back and not lend them any on their new, improved $35,000 last dance.

Maybe I'm missing something....but I'm seeing people upset with what I think are some of the best features of the way Harmoney operates and the upcoming direct alignment of their rewards with the same risk we all face in lending the money.

If I've gone wrong somewhere.....please tell me. :-)

Actually I preferred the old system because there was more incentive to squeeze the pips out of every loan. Now there is no immediate incentive to work hard on poor performing loans to get at least some of the capital back. Fees are also front loaded under an interest based approach. Having said that I am happy with Harmoney and take comfort from the quality of management, shareholders, wholesale funders and FMA licence. I think it is great addition to a portfolio of investments if you diversify correctly.

[humvee]

I have no problems with the new method of calculating the fees - it is one of the better ways of doing it. My issue is with the level they are set at - and the size fee increase this will result in for pretty much EVERYONE even those in the cheapest fee bracket. If you look at the other P2P lender in NZ that does their fees the same as the new harmoney way they charge 10% NOT 15%-20%. If at least harmoney set there fees at 10%-15% most investors would have ended up paying more then they did before but the increase would have been more modest.

With Re-writes I see why they do it the way they do - but it penalises those that took the 1st initial risk with a new borrower and potentially risked the higher default rate. The best of all worlds fair to all way of dealing with this would be to offer existing investors the 1st right of acceptance to remain invested, Eg you have say 24 hours to log into your dashboard and say yes I want to remain invested. If you don't accept that part of the loan goes out to the market too. While this is happening the increased proportion of the loan can already be out in the market being filled - so the slow down in funding the loan would be minimal



First post.

I've been investing with Harmoney since October. One of the issues I raised with them early on was their fees seemed to be out line with the risk.

Currently:

They assess the applications and grade the loans.
We invest.
Harmoney takes a fee that is a percentage of the CAPITAL.....and unrelated to the actual performance of the loan. Good or bad, they get their fee. So where is the incentive to rigorously assess risk in grading the loans? It appeared to be a moral imperative only. Only indirectly do they suffer as investors back off IF the grading of loans wasn't in line with actual risk - in aggregate. But we would not know that for years, possibly.

Under the new fee structure, Harmoney is in the risk pool right along with us. If the loans perform badly....we don't get any interest...and Harmoney doesn't get any fees. Hurrah!

As for the new fees, there is incentive to invest more and pay lower fees. I'm already well over the $10,000 threshold and should pay 17.5% instead of 20% of interest. I'm also provisionally assuming we can deduct their fee from our earnings for tax purposes. So we pay less tax on the gross interest. That's good.

Re-writes? I like them. They are a chance to get back - in full - the amount loaned to a lender long before the 36 months of 60 months elapses. Good. In my view, that improves my liquidity, if only by accident.

But re-writes are also necessary when a loan is topped up. Each top-up is - or should be - a chance to re-assess that borrower. Are they headed off the rails? Will they go into a death spiral long before the term of the loan is up? If loans were just topped up without re-writes, I'd be very worried. My money could be locked in for a ride down the plug-hole to a borrower who thinks the solution to too much debt is more debt. Re-grading them along the way would be irrelevant if I can't get my money out. No thanks. I love re-writes.

I rarely (almost never, but not quite) lend money to anyone asking for the $35,000 cap. They have nowhere left to go if they run into trouble. At least if someone runs into trouble at $30,000, they can go for a re-write....and I can get my money back and not lend them any on their new, improved $35,000 last dance.

Maybe I'm missing something....but I'm seeing people upset with what I think are some of the best features of the way Harmoney operates and the upcoming direct alignment of their rewards with the same risk we all face in lending the money.

If I've gone wrong somewhere.....please tell me. :-)

[mp52]

So Harmoney have updated their disclosure document and I took another read through as a refresher and this caught my eye:


"Harmoney and its Related Companies may be paid a commission or other financial benefit by any person in connection with any loan or the Harmoney service (eg a commission if it participates in a loan)."


From this, it seems there is a risk of Harmoney purchasing high-risk debt from another lender and "subjectively" grading it (lipstick on pig) if sufficiently incentivised? Curious what protections are there under the FMA, governance or otherwise against this?

[Darchie]

Linuxluver ...

I have been with HM since the latter part of September last year .... i have 9 write offs so far
:
4 of those were in the fraud lot so i will exclude those for this example:

So 5 left to consider
NOW..... Of those 5 .... 2 had been rewrites ....... So i think your initial view on re writes may have to mature over time!

I ask you
When looking to invest ... How do you even know if a rewrite has been an early attempt to ease their dire position? ... or
They initially borrowed a low amount ... paid a few payments on time, then go back for a much higher rewrite with no intention of repaying ...

[Darchie]

I wonder if the lack of loans is the high demand from lenders wanting to get as much in as possible before the fee hike, or Harmoney purposefully holding back loans until the fee hike.

I was rather hoping to get a little more in before Monday, but there aren't nearly enough loans to bother.

It's time consuming but over past say couple/few weeks ... loans seem to be listed up in groups and full at a blistering speed ... like some 3-5 odd minutes ... so if ya aren't loggin at that particular time ya may think listings have dried up ... i counted up 55 odd one day - i think if Harmoney revealed just how many loans they've listed each day - you'd possibly have an eyebrow raising moment ...

[Darchie]

Another crude way is checking out the loan numbers for a month ... just did this and i see they've gone from approx 63297 up to 65355 .. so roughly averaging around 68 odd loans per day yet within this time frame we had a long weekend ... so the daily listed up loans would be a little higher.

[humvee]

Another crude way is checking out the loan numbers for a month ... just did this and i see they've gone from approx 63297 up to 65355 .. so roughly averaging around 68 odd loans per day yet within this time frame we had a long weekend ... so the daily listed up loans would be a little higher.


Yes but at what point is the loan ID allocated - Based on the fact they arrive to market out of order - and the odd one can turn up out of order by several thousand - this means the ID's are allocated at an earlier stage - probably either to each application (approved or not) or at approval . So the number you get from this calculation is most likely the number of applications - or the number of approved applications - not the actual number of loans issued.

I also believe that all loans where the borrower chose insurance are being exclusively funded by the corporate lenders and are unavailable to retail currently. So this will further reduce the retail number available.

[permutation]

It's time consuming but over past say couple/few weeks ... loans seem to be listed up in groups and full at a blistering speed ... like some 3-5 odd minutes ... so if ya aren't loggin at that particular time ya may think listings have dried up ... i counted up 55 odd one day - i think if Harmoney revealed just how many loans they've listed each day - you'd possibly have an eyebrow raising moment ...

Why then is the chance of being able to invest in any Loan(s) like a lottery, depending when one logs-in?
I think if Harmoney would text investors, that wish to opt-in, when loans are placed on the market; providing a fair opportunity.

There maybe a good number of investors that are unable to log-in regularly (work) during the day to take a chance.

The only downside to my idea is a possible Log-Jam..

[Linuxluver]

Hi Darchie

Thank you for your comments. I'm up to over 100 loans and haven't had any write-offs or defaults since October '15, but then I have tended to stick to the A-C (mainly A2 to C2) loans and only occasionally dipped into what I see as murky waters at the D-F level.....just to add a flourish of higher interest to my otherwise (relatively) conservative approach. I do have one loan that falls into arrears and then they pay...and then it falls into arrears....but so far none have gone bad.

I have assumed that where a person has had a previous loan and has a payment history far less than 36 payments is almost certainly a re-write. But they could have paid another loan off early, too, so there is that possibility. Often the comments make it clear the would-be borrower is increasing their loan for some purpose.

As for people dealing in bad faith.....well....that's built into the risk profiles, I guess. They are included in the estimated default rate. They are the reason we don't lend $1000 at a time and stick to smaller amounts across many loans. I agree we can never be certain. If there are too many liars and fraudsters out there then I suppose we'll all find out the hard way. But so far, fingers crossed, I haven't seen such behaviour among my loans.

[Linuxluver]

Completely different issue: today my Harmoney fund balance shows as -$87. I assume some cheque has bounced? A big one? I had a positive balance - maybe $13 - yesterday. That looks suspiciously close to a round $100 variation.

Has anyone else seen this now or ever? I've sent them an email asking about it.

[permutation]

... I'm up to over 100 loans and haven't had any write-offs or defaults since October '15, but then I have tended to stick to the A-C (mainly A2 to C2) loans and only occasionally dipped into what I see as murky waters at the D-F level......

Welcome Linuxluver,

Good move sticking to A-C grades. I can tell you that I have just reached the 600+ loans invested, 420+ loans are in the A_C grade, have had only 1 charged off loan, a B4 grade over the last 15 months invested.

The other 180 odd loans D_F have had 4 defaults 3 E grade, 1 F grade.
I am happy with the return so far, but I'm not sure if I'm happy with the new fee structure come Monday!

[Art]

Linuxluver ...

I have been with HM since the latter part of September last year .... i have 9 write offs so far
:
4 of those were in the fraud lot so i will exclude those for this example:

So 5 left to consider
NOW..... Of those 5 .... 2 had been rewrites ....... So i think your initial view on re writes may have to mature over time!

I ask you
When looking to invest ... How do you even know if a rewrite has been an early attempt to ease their dire position? ... or
They initially borrowed a low amount ... paid a few payments on time, then go back for a much higher rewrite with no intention of repaying ...

That's how I see it and why I don't generally invest in re-writes. To me re-writes are an indication that the borrower constantly needs to borrow more to fund future repayments. I sometimes make an exception if the original loan was very small or if the purpose was for house renovations which, lets face it, always blow out.

[WingingIt]

Sorry but how does 3 month really prove consistency and that they're going to be reliable long term???

From Harmoney website
"Are you going to continue actively marketing to Borrowers to rewrite their loans?Harmoney plans on continuing to offer our most creditworthy borrowers the chance to top up their loan up to their approved limit after at least 3 months of full payment history. This is a standard practice in consumer lending, as it is rewards Borrowers for consistent repayment behaviour, ensures that Harmoney creates a long-term relationship with that customer, and encourages that customer not to look elsewhere for their borrowing needs.

[Saamee]

What's the uptake volume on the new loans been sine Monday's Fee change?

I honesty cannot be bothered to even go and look!

It's been very quiet on this Thread since Sunday :)

[Darchie]

25 loans sitting ..pretty much been not many fill for day..... very stagnant.

[Darchie]

I see I've got EIGHT arrears that've paid zero, missing their first payment ..... I certainly hope we're not into another fraud stint! Anyone else noticing an increase with these?
Gues what 3 of them are rewrites . Ya know "cream of the crop"

[Saamee]

Anyone Else Ever Considered that Just Maybe Harmoney Uses a Few "Fakes Loans"??

I have now invested in just over 200 individual loans with Harmoney.

Just this week 3 have been repaid just a little after 1 Month of being instigated.

I recall back when investing around that time that on a particular Saturday many many of the loans had almost the same borrower criteria ( like a copy and past action! ) same words, same amount, same term length, same eranings maybe just a different south island location!

Just wondering? Harmoney would most likely earn more through the service fee than paying out 1 months inetrest??

I wrote this post back on Sat 28th NOV 2015....

By any chance - was this the time that the FRAUDULENT Loan applications were applied for?

I personally was not hit by the FRAUDULENT loans - so am unaware when they were issued??

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

No, the fraudulent loans were over about time 2 months. From memory, starting around christmas ending around 2 feb. The point is they wernt in quick succession.

[humvee]

I wrote this post back on Sat 28th NOV 2015....

By any chance - was this the time that the FRAUDULENT Loan applications were applied for?

I personally was not hit by the FRAUDULENT loans - so am unaware when they were issued??

Here are the list of Fraudulent loans I was hit with. Note harmoney have only acknoledged that 9 of the 11 loans listed were fraudulent - I missed to other 2 off my list(or they hadnt yet been written off) when I asked about them


LAI-00055146 Feb 10, 2016
LAI-00054117 Feb 2, 2016
LAI-00054100 Feb 1, 2016
LAI-00053612 Jan 27, 2016
LAI-00053360 Jan 19, 2016
LAI-00053274 Jan 15, 2016
LAI-00052943 Jan 12, 2016
LAI-00052647 Jan 4, 2016
LAI-00052256 Dec 23, 2015
LAI-00051494 Dec 14, 2015




and also Maybe


LAI-00055174 Feb 10, 2016

[humvee]

25 loans sitting ..pretty much been not many fill for day..... very stagnant.

Im very pleased to see this to be honest - and hopefully it will stay this way - wake up call for harmoney hopefully - the raised fees are too high.

although they might be able to bandaid this problem by using the corporate investors

I got slammed with 19 early repayments between 4pm Friday and Sunday morning. and more since by the looks of it. And there were almost no loans at all in the market place over the weekend. So now i need to decide what to do with this. But for the forseeable future i wont be depositing more money into harmoney.

[Saamee]

Im very pleased to see this to be honest - and hopefully it will stay this way - wake up call for harmoney hopefully - the raised fees are too high.

I got slammed with 19 early repayments between 4pm Friday and Sunday morning. and more since by the looks of it. And there were almost no loans at all in the market place over the weekend. So now i need to decide what to do with this. But for the forseeable future i wont be depositing more money into harmoney.

Humvee..... Personally, how do you ascertain that a loan has been early repaud \ paid off?

I'm lost! Do Harmoneys own reports tell you this? Regards.

[777]

Humvee..... Personally, how do you ascertain that a loan has been early repaud \ paid off?

I'm lost! Do Harmoneys own reports tell you this? Regards.

The balance of loan becomes zero and your funds available increase.

[humvee]

Humvee..... Personally, how do you ascertain that a loan has been early repaud \ paid off?

I'm lost! Do Harmoneys own reports tell you this? Regards.

Reports
Filter by completed
Record the total number
Repeat the process X days later
Calculate the difference


Note this will give the number of loans not the value of loans


There is no way to see when a loan was paid off - which I think is very poor

[Darchie]

Im very pleased to see this to be honest - and hopefully it will stay this way - wake up call for harmoney hopefully - the raised fees are too high.

although they might be able to bandaid this problem by using the corporate investors

I got slammed with 19 early repayments between 4pm Friday and Sunday morning. and more since by the looks of it. And there were almost no loans at all in the market place over the weekend. So now i need to decide what to do with this. But for the forseeable future i wont be depositing more money into harmoney.


Agree with you here humvee ... absolutely do. ... I too have stopped depositing funds ... there was a bit of a balance left after the dry weekend of loans, along with the many repays, cancelled, expired ... just seems a lot of recycling or catching up going on in background.
I'm sure harmoneys system was pushed to its maximum if not beyond in that period leading up to their outrageous LEAP in fee. ..

I do think they have been extremely greedy with their chosen Hike in fees ..... I agree their new method is far better, and needed to be increased, but NOT by this amount... hell when i run a calculator over my figures ... it's ugly ...
as so far on old system on figures showing on dashboard today I've been charged $253.16 in fees ... if this new structure had been in place AND I'd been on my tier @ 15% from start ... so take my gross interest paid to date * by 15% OMG fees charged would shoot up to $736.90
and that would look a heck of a lot worse @ 17.5% ... let alone 20% !!!!!

In my view Harmoney do want RID of as much of the Retail as possible .... just too much hassle for em ... so maybe this new fee pricing is their way of reducing the noise!!!!

I will meantime take some new loans with available cash, just see how things go.... but my whole way of accessing a loan position has completely changed ...

[777]

Reports
Filter by completed
Record the total number
Repeat the process X days later
Calculate the difference


Note this will give the number of loans not the value of loans


There is no way to see when a loan was paid off - which I think is very poor

If you select the paid off loan it states the date of the last payment.

[Saamee]

The balance of loan becomes zero and your funds available increase.

777 > That's a lot of manual checking.... For something I think Harmoney should be sending an Email for!

[Saamee]

Reports
Filter by completed
Record the total number
Repeat the process X days later
Calculate the difference


Note this will give the number of loans not the value of loans


There is no way to see when a loan was paid off - which I think is very poor


Thanx Humvee, That's still too much manual checking for me when the process should be Automated within the Reports section with it's own search filter 'Repaid Loans'

[Saamee]

Ha ha - I just tried to do something I had not done for 3 months > Go and look at new loans....

I saw the new Harmoney T & C's acceptance flash up and thought NUH... Logged out again :)

[humvee]

Ha ha - I just tried to do something I had not done for 3 months > Go and look at new loans....

I saw the new Harmoney T & C's acceptance flash up and thought NUH... Logged out again :)

Interesting question - if you dont agree to the new terms and conditions - and therefore wont click I agree - How do you sign in to withdraw your money?

[Saamee]

Interesting question - if you dont agree to the new terms and conditions - and therefore wont click I agree - How do you sign in to withdraw your money?

Humvee... Ha ha don't you worry!

I've been withdrawing my returned funds on a Multiple times a Day basis!

I guess that the new revised T & C's are ONLY for the New Loans and at the New rates!

[777]

777 > That's a lot of manual checking.... For something I think Harmoney should be sending an Email for!

Well all you need to do is export your report and create your own spread sheet from it. Each day after that you can update it from a new report. Yes a little bit of effort but it is your investment so up to you to follow it. Takes me about 3minutes each day.