Harmoney

[Kelvin]

If you log in to Harmony, then go to this page: https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/investor/marketplace/loans?limit=100&offset=0

Seems like there is a "bureau_score" for each loan listing. What is it? A score from Veda?

[Onion]

If you log in to Harmony, then go to this page: https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/investor/marketplace/loans?limit=100&offset=0

Seems like there is a "bureau_score" for each loan listing. What is it? A score from Veda?

What details are available for the API Kelvin? Is there anything documented or have you found this by sniffing around?

[Kelvin]

What details are available for the API Kelvin? Is there anything documented or have you found this by sniffing around?

Just been sniffing around, but don't have the skill to turn it into anything useful

This one is also good https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/investor/dashboard/summary

[Onion]

Just been sniffing around, but don't have the skill to turn it into anything useful

This one is also good https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/investor/dashboard/summary

Thanks Kelvin.

It would be interesting to see what can be done with it.

[Kelvin]

Thanks Kelvin.

It would be interesting to see what can be done with it.

I was hoping to create a personal P2P dashboard showing the key details (cash balance, principal outstanding, RAR) for my accounts - Harmoney, Lending Crowd, Squirrel - without logging in to each site

And bureau score might be useful for deciding what loans to buy

[humvee]

If you log in to Harmony, then go to this page: https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/investor/marketplace/loans?limit=100&offset=0

Seems like there is a "bureau_score" for each loan listing. What is it? A score from Veda?

This here addon for chrome lays out this info in a much more readable format



https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/json-formatter/bcjindcccaagfpapjjmafapmmgkkhgoa?hl=en

[Wsp]

http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2016/09/disharmoney.html?m=1

[humvee]

http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2016/09/disharmoney.html?m=1

got to love this

"A regulator could scarcely be more destructive without procuring a giant wasps’ nest, agitating it vigorously and releasing it into the previously calm interior of its victim’s compact Parnell office space."

[Wsp]

I now have one loan that is in arrears where the region that the borrower is recorded as living in is South Melbourne. Anyone else seeing this?

[humvee]

I now have one loan that is in arrears where the region that the borrower is recorded as living in is South Melbourne. Anyone else seeing this?


not that I can see in a quick look at the export.

What loan id?

[Wsp]

LAI-00013114. From Feb 26 2015. Graded as a D4

[humvee]

[QUOTE=Wsp;635863]LAI-00013114. From Feb 26 2015. Graded as a D4[/QUOT

I dont have that one

[Darchie]

LAI-00013114. From Feb 26 2015. Graded as a D4
I have a charged off one from .. QLD. I remember wondering when i took it .. thought it was probably a mistake and shld have been Queenstown. .. maybe not afterall

[Darchie]

It's loan number LAI-00052230. F5. Taken out on 23 December 2015

[CR111]

There seem to be a lot of $0 monthly repayments lately8287

I was wondering if I could get one of these.

[humvee]

I think I might know what a number of the $0 arrears listings in the reports are caused by

I have 8 loans in arrears, that have $0 "Amount in Arrears" that have not had a single payment in the last 31 days - some have not had a payment since June. Prior to stopping paying all appeared to be ahead on repayments and most likely have not yet dropped back to where they would be expected to be had they only made the minimum repayments

[humvee]

I think I might know what a number of the $0 arrears listings in the reports are caused by

I have 8 loans in arrears, that have $0 "Amount in Arrears" that have not had a single payment in the last 31 days - some have not had a payment since June. Prior to stopping paying all appeared to be ahead on repayments and most likely have not yet dropped back to where they would be expected to be had they only made the minimum repayments

I could not with just a quick look find where in either the borrower_agreement
https://app.harmoney.com/borrower_agreement
or the
Borrower FAQ's
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/borrower-faqs
Where It says the borrower is allowed or is not allowed to do this, So I'm unsure if the borrower is technically in arrears or not. If Im unclear on this I expect some borrowers would be too

[Wsp]

According to Harmoney Auto lend is due for release in the next couple of weeks.

[kiwi_on_OE]

Arrears report has been enhanced - now shows timeframe since last payment (0-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120). The last should probably say 91-120+.

I think this is a good addition, now I just need to work out a good way to use it.

And if only I could amend my filter to exclude those less than a few cents in arrears.

[Art]

Arrears report has been enhanced - now shows timeframe since last payment (0-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120). The last should probably say 91-120+.

I think this is a good addition, now I just need to work out a good way to use it.

And if only I could amend my filter to exclude those less than a few cents in arrears.

That is an excellent enhancement. With all this data my spreadsheet skills are improving at a rapid rate - trying to analyse all the information in the way I want it I am learning about all sorts of functions that I have never used before!

[humvee]

And if only I could amend my filter to exclude those less than a few cents in arrears.


Did you see my comment about what I think is causing the $0.00 arrears loans

[humvee]

That is an excellent enhancement. With all this data my spreadsheet skills are improving at a rapid rate - trying to analyse all the information in the way I want it I am learning about all sorts of functions that I have never used before!

It is New status's shown on report too
Status: Hardship, Protect Waived, Protect Waiver

[humvee]

Arrears report has been enhanced - now shows timeframe since last payment (0-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120). The last should probably say 91-120+.


I have some Arrears (121-180) so the 90-120 wont be +

[mjplost]

Arrears report has been enhanced - now shows timeframe since last payment (0-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120). The last should probably say 91-120+.

I think this is a good addition, now I just need to work out a good way to use it.

And if only I could amend my filter to exclude those less than a few cents in arrears.

Are your arrears total figures accurate? The figure on the dashboard is over double what it is when I add up each individual one. Has been like this for 2 months+

[kiwi_on_OE]

@Humvee
My arrears of $0.00 have had pymts within the last month. Might just be the overall loan is a small amount out, and at my level that is $0.00.
I have loans that are beyond 120 days in arrears, but are showing in the 90-120 category.
Thx for the extra statuses(?). I've added a report, it's empty so far.

@mjplost
My dashboard arrears is about 10% more than the sum of the individual arrears. Perhaps they use a random number generator for the dashboard number. I'm more concerned about whether or not the loan will be charged off, how many days since the last payment etc., not so much the actual arrears amount.

It's good that they're adding these features, but it does take the gloss off when the numbers don't add up etc. It has me scratching my head wondering how they these changes get a pass mark in testing prior to implementation. It also makes me wonder what else is wrong that we haven't spotted. Do we need to screen scrape our data every day, and run our own calculations on it to check they're doing it right?

[Dan@Harmoney]

Are your arrears total figures accurate? The figure on the dashboard is over double what it is when I add up each individual one. Has been like this for 2 months+

Hi, If you email me at dan@harmoney.co.nz with the details of your account we will take a look at it. Thanks.

[permutation]

I was browsing through loans a few minutes ago an noticed that one of the loans listed has a monthly repayment amount of $0.00 and further more it was already 61% funded. How can a loan listed like this have any credibility?.
I noticed it on some loans yesterday also.

[kiwi_on_OE]

I was browsing through loans a few minutes ago an noticed that one of the loans listed has a monthly repayment amount of $0.00 and further more it was already 61% funded. How can a loan listed like this have any credibility?.
I noticed it on some loans yesterday also.

Yeah, it's sloppy. It happens pretty regularly. I find another loan with the same category, term, amount etc. and work out what the payment is.

You'll see from the issues mentioned even just on this page that data accuracy leaves something to be desired at Harmoney.

[RMJH]

Yeah, it's sloppy. It happens pretty regularly. I find another loan with the same category, term, amount etc. and work out what the payment is.

You'll see from the issues mentioned even just on this page that data accuracy leaves something to be desired at Harmoney.

Have you ever found an error in your account balance ?

[mccollr]

Have you raised this with Harmoney.? They may be unaware that it is an issue.

[777]

Withdraw a small amount from your account and see if your dashboard updates.

[Darchie]

Have you ever found an error in your account balance ?

Earlier days with HM i crossed checked them often and of late .... have far too much on my plate to be continually double checking ... but will do a cross check before too long ...
I often Wonder (am concerned) that there very well could be a number of misplaced payments .... so YES. I, like you, wonder if there's an error or two to be found!!

[kiwi_on_OE]

Is everything ok with Harmoney today. I'm getting the attached using Opera when I go to the sign in page. Via Chrome and Firefox it takes me to the sign in page.

[Stevecp]

Have you raised this with Harmoney.? They may be unaware that it is an issue.
I have raised this matter a number of times and never had a satisfactory answer.

[andrew.bates]

Hi Kiwi_on_OE,

Harmoney have incorrectly been marked by a third party as a potential Phishing site.

We're aware that some customers are getting notifications that our login page is a "Phishing" site. Phishing scams usually involve tricking people into logging into a site, such as their bank, with a similar looking page that then captures the username and password of that user. It's hard to understand why we're being flagged in this way considering it's our login page, and we're not purporting to be anyone else.

According to their website Opera relies on multiple third parties including GeoTrust (http://www.geotrust.com/) and Phishtank (http://www.phishtank.com/) to provide their Phishing warnings

We're currently working with the providers that have incorrectly categorised our site as such, and are working through the false positive process with them now. You may have seen a few months ago we had a similar issue with Norton, which we resolved promptly. Unfortunately, the providers are unwilling/unable to provide us any guidance on why we're being categorised this way, so it's difficult for us to get ahead of this, or make any changes to stop them flagging us on their systems. We're having to rely on being put on whitelists, which is not optimal.

Harmoney utilises an Extended Validation (EV) SSL Certificate. An EV certificate is a special type of site certificate that requires a significantly more rigorous identity verification process than other types of certificates. This means that if you're using a modern browser ( including Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer 7+) your address bar will turn green when you visit Harmoney (see attachment) This makes it easier for you to be sure you’re on the genuine Harmoney website.

8312

Please be assured that we're not a phishing site, we have never been one, and we take all possible steps to ensure the safety of your login details when you're using our site.
To learn how to tell if a website connection is secure, visit the appropriate help page for your browser, for example:
Chrome https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/95617?hl=en
Mozilla Firefox http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-do-i-tell-if-my-connection-is-secure

[kiwi_on_OE]

Thx Andrew


"Unfortunately, the providers are unwilling/unable to provide us any guidance on why we're being categorised this way"

Like applying for a loan, being told your score isn't high enough, and then being fobbed off with excuses. ;-)

My concern was that perhaps someone had hacked your site.

I can imagine companies from some countries suing if their website was put on a list of bad websites.

[darrenc]

I've been investing in Harmoney since February and thought I'd share my results with you. I'm not as hardcore into the spreadsheet analysis as some of you, but I do have criteria.
I'm currently achieving 16.7%. At the beginning I was putting money in across all loan levels as long as they conformed to my criteria, so I have 10% in A, but now rarely invest in anything less than a B4. I started with $75k, but it took a couple of months to get it all out. My total investments are over $113k, which shows you how many rewrites we have to put up with. I've had nearly $900 written off, only $4 recovered with $240 showing in arrears. Current balance is $80,200. The downside is that it is extremely active investing; you have to be on there 4x per day otherwise the good loans get snapped up, sometimes within an hour.
I've also been using Lending Crowd. I don't have as much in there and I focus on loans above 12%, but I invest more per loan as it's secured. In Harmoney I'm usually putting in $25 for F-grade, $25-$50 for D and E-grade and usually $75, but up to $150 for B and C. I'm trying to get my weighting favouring C and D, but it's 32% B at the moment and about 23% C and 15% D. I never invest in weddings or holidays - that stuff is discretionary.
I had set up a separate account with $5k at the same time just to experiment with a different strategy. I'm now drawing it down since the new fees and transferring to Lending Crowd. I focused more on C-F loans and am at 16.2% with about $30 written off. I'm not putting any more into Harmoney for the moment - just diversifying a bit on Snowball Effect, LC, etc.

[Saamee]

I've been investing in Harmoney since February and thought I'd share my results with you. I'm not as hardcore into the spreadsheet analysis as some of you, but I do have criteria.
I'm currently achieving 16.7%. At the beginning I was putting money in across all loan levels as long as they conformed to my criteria, so I have 10% in A, but now rarely invest in anything less than a B4. I started with $75k, but it took a couple of months to get it all out. My total investments are over $113k, which shows you how many rewrites we have to put up with. I've had nearly $900 written off, only $4 recovered with $240 showing in arrears. Current balance is $80,200. The downside is that it is extremely active investing; you have to be on there 4x per day otherwise the good loans get snapped up, sometimes within an hour.
I've also been using Lending Crowd. I don't have as much in there and I focus on loans above 12%, but I invest more per loan as it's secured. In Harmoney I'm usually putting in $25 for F-grade, $25-$50 for D and E-grade and usually $75, but up to $150 for B and C. I'm trying to get my weighting favouring C and D, but it's 32% B at the moment and about 23% C and 15% D. I never invest in weddings or holidays - that stuff is discretionary.
I had set up a separate account with $5k at the same time just to experiment with a different strategy. I'm now drawing it down since the new fees and transferring to Lending Crowd. I focused more on C-F loans and am at 16.2% with about $30 written off. I'm not putting any more into Harmoney for the moment - just diversifying a bit on Snowball Effect, LC, etc.

Welcome to the site DarrenC

Good reading your findings. Echoes my experience and leanings!

[darrenc]

8317
I see this kind of thing very frequently. Can anyone from Harmoney shed light on this (or preferably fix it). It's not a local computer problem as I've tried a deep refresh (shift-F5) and clearing my cache; it seems like a website caching problem. The ones in the image are loans 74728, 74708, 74696 and 74471.

[Marilyn Munroe]

From the web site interest.co.nz.

"P2P lender Harmoney asks Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister to 'clarify' fees issue through 'appropriate legislative changes'"

The Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act make it abundantly clear even on a superficial reading that fees must be directly related to the costs of setting up and administering a loan.

A charge tacked on to the loan "because we can" is not permitted under the act. A percentage fee obviously varies with the size of the loan and would have a challenge being regarded as a cost recovery as they are almost always of a fixed nature.

Harmoney having such a poor understanding of the craft of lending is a cause for concern.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[kiwi_on_OE]

Can anyone explain the Payment Protect, their FAQ just confuses me, and I have only the vaguest of ideas about what this product is.

I can see: -
- it's a payment waiver policy, so the borrower may be excused from making repayments
- it's optional for the borrower,
- there are two levels of cover
- some or all of the repayments may be waived
- if the loan is repaid early some of the fee is rebated to the borrower

It appears, but isn't clear to me: -
- the borrower pays for the Payment Protect with the fee capitalised into their loan
- the fee varies from 7.24% to 11.66%
- Harmoney's fee is included/excluded in the above
- Harmoney's fee is deducted from the amount we lend
- if the loan is repaid early, do we get a rebate from Harmoney
- there is absolutely no guidance on the tax implications

I wish Harmoney had given some examples. So I'll try my own. If I lend $100 to a Payment Protect loan: -
- Harmoney will take $3 or $4 in fees to start with
- the loan repayments will be set so that I should get about $108 to $111 (depending on the PP fee) back over the term of the loan
- if the loan is repaid/rewritten half way through, I'll get back $104 to $105, as half the PP fee is rebated to the borrower
- if the loan is repaid/rewritten after almost immediately, I'll get back the $100 from the borrower, and they'll get back all of the PP fee, but my net return will be only $96-$97, because Harmoney have taken their $3-$4 fee from me upfront.

Questions: -
- in the above, what do I get if the borrower dies on day one, it seems to be nothing.

With the lack of clarity about this product, and with no indication of how to treat it for tax purposes, I think I'll give it a miss.

[Darchie]

I'm not that keen on unsecured lending figure going up to $70,000 ... just seems rather high in my view!
What's your thoughts on this higher figure?

[RMJH]

I'm not that keen on unsecured lending figure going up to $70,000 ... just seems rather high in my view!
What's your thoughts on this higher figure?
Tend to agree, wouldn't feel comfortable without further information to get comfortable that the algorithm can handle such large unsecured loans.

[alistar_mid]

whats peoples strat here on reinvesting or taking the money out?

If you recycle the money its in there for another 3-5 years (well it comes out in portions over this time)

I thought to as I get repayments each month to just take this money out.

Also does anyone know if their assessed default rates are based on a recent data set (ie the last 8 years or so when the economy has been strong) which would not be as relevant if the economy tanked and the unemployment rate went up?

[Onion]

If you log in to Harmony, then go to this page: https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/investor/marketplace/loans?limit=100&offset=0

Seems like there is a "bureau_score" for each loan listing. What is it? A score from Veda?

They have your answer:

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/comprehensive-credit-reporting#score

[Darchie]

Can anyone explain the Payment Protect, their FAQ just confuses me, and I have only the vaguest of ideas about what this product is.

I can see: -
- it's a payment waiver policy, so the borrower may be excused from making repayments
- it's optional for the borrower,
- there are two levels of cover
- some or all of the repayments may be waived
- if the loan is repaid early some of the fee is rebated to the borrower

It appears, but isn't clear to me: -
- the borrower pays for the Payment Protect with the fee capitalised into their loan
- the fee varies from 7.24% to 11.66%
- Harmoney's fee is included/excluded in the above
- Harmoney's fee is deducted from the amount we lend
- if the loan is repaid early, do we get a rebate from Harmoney
- there is absolutely no guidance on the tax implications

I wish Harmoney had given some examples. So I'll try my own. If I lend $100 to a Payment Protect loan: -
- Harmoney will take $3 or $4 in fees to start with
- the loan repayments will be set so that I should get about $108 to $111 (depending on the PP fee) back over the term of the loan
- if the loan is repaid/rewritten half way through, I'll get back $104 to $105, as half the PP fee is rebated to the borrower
- if the loan is repaid/rewritten after almost immediately, I'll get back the $100 from the borrower, and they'll get back all of the PP fee, but my net return will be only $96-$97, because Harmoney have taken their $3-$4 fee from me upfront.

Questions: -
- in the above, what do I get if the borrower dies on day one, it seems to be nothing.

With the lack of clarity about this product, and with no indication of how to treat it for tax purposes, I think I'll give it a miss.


Inclined to Agree
No matter how many times i read through Harmoneys blurb on this PP product I just can not see it is offering the lender much in the way of anything at all! ...
HM gather their commission & fees up front ... basically just by hard selling their product ... the loan is increased by that amount, so more notes to fill it, and lets the Lender take all the risk ...(unsure how each note receives their % of PP fee that's been added onto the loan amount!). which as i see it ... this all is still unsecured borrowers, that can just walk away from their commitment and by what I'm guessing is it only scars their credit history for two years ... then they can wipe that and do it all again! (I've never really borrowed much over the years so possibly don't understand how that credit history really works) maybe someone can elaborate upon that aspect.
I ask fellow lenders ... what advantages lenders are there with PP?

[Darchie]

And ... there's certainly a lot of loans in the process of being repaid ... i can see that in the reports...
No doubt rewriting to expand their limits.

[777]

And ... there's certainly a lot of loans in the process of being repaid ... i can see that in the reports...
No doubt rewriting to expand their limits.

Good. I can get my money out quicker.

[Soolaimon]

Inclined to Agree
No matter how many times i read through Harmoneys blurb on this PP product I just can not see it is offering the lender much in the way of anything at all! ...
HM gather their commission & fees up front ... basically just by hard selling their product ... the loan is increased by that amount, so more notes to fill it, and lets the Lender take all the risk ...(unsure how each note receives their % of PP fee that's been added onto the loan amount!). which as i see it ... this all is still unsecured borrowers, that can just walk away from their commitment and by what I'm guessing is it only scars their credit history for two years ... then they can wipe that and do it all again! (I've never really borrowed much over the years so possibly don't understand how that credit history really works) maybe someone can elaborate upon that aspect.
I ask fellow lenders ... what advantages lenders are there with PP?

Cant see any advantages, probably because I too cannot make head or tail of it. I notice that already ther are several loans listed with this PP thing. I have put 1 note into 3 of them to watch.
Other than that I am still withdrawing most of the re-paids over to LC and now only investing 1 or2 notes in loans here. I was putting 4 to 6 in a loan butt got hit with a couple of defauts in the 6 range (C andD) that knocked my RAR down to 12%. It is slowly recovering, now 12.65%.
Happier over at LC.

[permutation]

Did a bit of a survey of my loans history over the last 18 months.
With over 600 loans during that time 86% are in the A_D grades with only 1 of 8 defaults=12.5%. The remaining 14% taken are E and F grades with 7 of 8 defaults=87.5%

I have invested 1 note $25 in one of these new "pp" loans. The outstanding principal on this loan shows $26.29, so I figure this will be the extra amount I will receive if the note goes the full term.

So I figure based on my stats above, if I only ever lend A_D grades, according to my criteria of selecting loans which I have made in previous posts, with "pp" added my return will be enhanced and my defaults will continue to be minimal.

[kiwi_on_OE]

I have invested 1 note $25 in one of these new "pp" loans. The outstanding principal on this loan shows $26.29, so I figure this will be the extra amount I will receive if the note goes the full term.


Thx for confirming that the fee has been reflected in the principal. Can you confirm which of the PP Pricing categories the loan is in, so that I can work out what fees Harmoney have deducted?

"Payment Protection" seems to be a misleading description. I wonder if they will use it on their advertising.

I agree with Darchie about PP not offering much. It seems to have it's costs/benefits around the wrong way - if the lender repays correctly I'll get paid more than normal, if they have some problem I agree to be paid less. If normal insurance was involved I would expect to receive slightly less if the loan was repaid normally, and to receive a payout if the loan got into trouble.

It's good that Harmoney have provided this sort of thing, for those that want it, and they do a lot of stuff better than others, but at the same time they seem to shoot themselves in the foot with bad communications and strange features.

[Darchie]

Harmoneys systems with repaid loans seem to be rather clogged at present .. i still have 18 loans sitting in repaid status, but I'm yet to receive funds.

[permutation]

Thx for confirming that the fee has been reflected in the principal. Can you confirm which of the PP Pricing categories the loan is in, so that I can work out what fees Harmoney have deducted?

The loan is for partial cover and it is a 60 month loan. The payment protection fee: says $1.98, I have $1.29 added to my outstanding principal total $26.29 so I guess the remaining 69c. goes to Harmoney if the loan runs it's entire duration.

What I don't understand is, that if the borrower defaults on this loan then will I lose all my principal that hasn't yet been repaid anyway???

[kiwi_on_OE]

The loan is for partial cover and it is a 60 month loan. The payment protection fee: says $1.98, I have $1.29 added to my outstanding principal total $26.29 so I guess the remaining 69c. goes to Harmoney if the loan runs it's entire duration.

What I don't understand is, that if the borrower defaults on this loan then will I lose all my principal that hasn't yet been repaid anyway???

Thx permutation. 69c of $1.98 seems to match their statement that their fee would be 15% + 20% ie. 35%. But the $1.98 doesn't seem to match with the table on their website saying it would be an 8.18% fee ($2.045 on $25) for an individual taking partial cover on a 60 month loan.

Have I got the maths wrong, or do I not understand what Harmoney are doing? (doing some tests, it looks a bit like the fee is rounded to the nearest $25)

I was thinking about these loans. They actually seem to be a way of increasing the riskiness of a loan from our perspective, as we agree not to require repayments in certain circumstances. Harmoney could've chosen to increase the interest rate, as is normally done when a loan is assessed as riskier. But I can understand why they preferred to take their fee upfront.

Perhaps there's a business opportunity for a new type of P2P model - charge everyone interest at 5% and then an upfront fee that is added to their loan to account for the borrower's riskiness. Maybe $5 on a $25 A1 loan and $30 on a F5 loan.

I'm also a bit surprised that the "full cover" fee isn't somewhat dependent on the borrower's category, or am I wrong to assume that risky borrower's are more likely to be made redundant?

I wonder if Harmoney will ever try to clarify this feature for us?

[humvee]

So I lose $2.39 - of my principle in fees and get no interest

8332

[permutation]

So I lose $2.39 - of my principle in fees and get no interest

8332

Hi Humvee,
So your principal amount is -74 cents. So how are you losing $2.39
I am wondering if on your homepage, have you had a Lender rebate.?

I believe that Harmoney should compensate the Lenders say in the first 3 months the full amount because there is no ethical reason, in my opinion, why there should be any fee grab upfront for pp if the borrower decides not to play ball and repays the loan extremely early for whatever reason.

[humvee]

Hi Humvee,
So your principal amount is -74 cents. So how are you losing $2.39
I am wondering if on your homepage, have you had a Lender rebate.?

I believe that Harmoney should compensate the Lenders say in the first 3 months the full amount because there is no ethical reason, in my opinion, why there should be any fee grab upfront for pp if the borrower decides not to play ball and repays the loan extremely early for whatever reason.

I'm not really sure how the -$0.74 comes about. But I have been charged fees of $2.39 for Harmoney to manage the payment protect service.

[kiwi_on_OE]

I'm not really sure how the -$0.74 comes about. But I have been charged fees of $2.39 for Harmoney to manage the payment protect service.

Reinforces my thoughts to avoid these loans for now. I'll wait until they explain them more clearly, and/or I learn from others experiences. I'm sorry for you that your experience has helped me, but thx. :-(

I was going to make comments about the fees, but I don't fully understand what Harmoney are saying on their website. I do understand that the 20% commission stays with Harmoney, but the 15% management fee is rebated. So I might assume/guess that the borrower gets back 80% of the PP fee and you lose 20% of the PP fee.

In permutation's example it appeared they added the net fee to the principal, but in your case it looks like it may have been the gross fee, although it isn't consistent with their fee percentages as far as I can tell.

I'll be interested to know what response they give you when you ask for clarification of exactly what has happened.

[kiwi_on_OE]

Are your arrears total figures accurate? The figure on the dashboard is over double what it is when I add up each individual one. Has been like this for 2 months+

My dashboard arrears is now significantly more than the sum of the individual arrears.

[mjplost]

My dashboard arrears is now significantly more than the sum of the individual arrears.

I emailed them and got it sorted, mines accurate now.

[Ketel One]

It seems to me like the main outcome of the introduction of payment "protect" is actually just a mechanism to re-introduce a fee that's taken from lenders each time meaning Harmoney can benefit from loan churn / rewrites again...

Unless I'm missing something?

[kiwi_on_OE]

It seems to me like the main outcome of the introduction of payment "protect" is actually just a mechanism to re-introduce a fee that's taken from lenders each time meaning Harmoney can benefit from loan churn / rewrites again...

To be fair, they clip the ticket by taking a fee on the extra interest too. ;-)

Good to see they've done a couple of examples now. Although it would be good to see an example of an early repayment scenario as humvee experienced last week.

One aspect that appears positive, if I understand correctly, is the margin lenders make on the fee. Harmoney take 35%, waivers are expected to take 24% (or is it 21%?) or 33%, leaving 32% or 41% for lenders. So their modelling would need to be fairly bad not to make money. But I'm not sure I trust their modelling.

I find it interesting that this is done as a waiver product rather than an insurance product. I suppose that does mean we take the risk if the modelling is wrong, rather than Harmoney if they provided it as insurance.

How do other lenders intend to treat it from a tax perspective? Presumably for a lending business the net fee would be income and waived payments would be expenses? But for someone not in the business of lending where bad debts can't be expensed (do I remember that correctly?), presumably a waived payment is a bad debt and can't be expensed? How many lenders will ignore the fee, and just put the interest in their tax return?

[Finite]

It seems to me that the ratio of 36 to 60 month loans has moved significantly over the last few months.
There are hardly any 36 month loans these days.
A sign of the times and the deteriorating situation most consumers are finding themselves in?

[kiwi_on_OE]

I haven't done a thorough analysis, but my mix of 36 and 60 month loans appears to be pretty much the same, perhaps a few more 60 month loans. It could be that the criteria I use just happens to produce that result.

[Soolaimon]

The loan terms have definatley changed for me. In the first year I had 80% 36 month loans and now after 2 years they are running 50% and that is using pretty much the same filters.

[DrewBroadley]

Still playing with what can be done with data

8262
8263
8264
8262
8265
8266

Thanks for this, do you happen to have figures for Loan Purpose?

[Saamee]

Thanks for this, do you happen to have figures for Loan Purpose?

These breakdowns are very informative and at the same time very telling in the statistics!

Be aware investing in Young Single people who are boarding or renting!

[humvee]

Thanks for this, do you happen to have figures for Loan Purpose?

I could try and do the - along with redo with newer data - but I doubt I have time for a week or two as its not a very fast/automated process yet

[permutation]

I have sorted data from last month into loan purpose. I just convert exported data from text>column in excel then I can sort A-Z etc. any info I want to see.
8347

[RMJH]

Can the Payment Protect filter be turned off? It seems to apply automatically. I'm starting to get to grips with the Auto Lend feature. Will be interesting to see how this pans out. First impressions are that it favours smaller investors and new investors which is all good. I wonder if we are allowed more than one account.

[CR111]

You can have more than one account. The problem that I have found is that my second account(for my children) is charged at the higher rate of fees, as the balance is less than $10,000. Which is somewhat unfair considering the amount I have in my main account.

[Investor]

I'd rather avoid payment protect personally as the small gain you can receive from it would be better obtained from investing in a loan of a grade higher rather than risking the payment waivers. My opinion also stems from the fact I feel payment protect is geared towards benefiting Harmoney severely rather than the lender.

[kiwi_on_OE]

Another write-off today. :-(
But it was expected. Another write-off expected soon. :-(
Looking at my arrears, most seem to have had no repayments, or maybe one. Very few have had significant repayments.
I was expecting more loans to get into arrears as time went by, as per their Hazard Curve on https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/investment-risks
What sort of distribution of arrears relative to the length of the loan are others getting?

[whitt]

Another write-off today. :-(
But it was expected. Another write-off expected soon. :-(
Looking at my arrears, most seem to have had no repayments, or maybe one. Very few have had significant repayments.
I was expecting more loans to get into arrears as time went by, as per their Hazard Curve on https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/investment-risks
What sort of distribution of arrears relative to the length of the loan are others getting?

you have 8 loans from 625 in arrears. thats only a 1.28% arrear rate.. Not too bad I guess if your grades are a mixture, similar to harmoneys predictions also

Are your 8 loans actually writeoffs ?
I find I get many in arrears but have only had 1 in writeoff. Although i only have 150 loans at present

[whitt]

Autolend seems to be working fine and has enough criteria for me at present to cherry pick loans.

My only gripe is the loans they list in my arrears which show $0 as arrears. If it is zero then please dont list them in my arrears

[mjplost]

Autolend seems to be working fine and has enough criteria for me at present to cherry pick loans.

My only gripe is the loans they list in my arrears which show $0 as arrears. If it is zero then please dont list them in my arrears

Apparently loans with $0 value in the arrears have arrears that are <$1. I agree, it is annoying though.

My arrears are consistently wrong, I emailed them 2 weeks ago and it was correct for a week, now its way out again ;)

[777]

Apparently loans with $0 value in the arrears have arrears that are <$1. I agree, it is annoying though.

My arrears are consistently wrong, I emailed them 2 weeks ago and it was correct for a week, now its way out again ;)

I have one that 18c in arrears. So not consistent with your information.

[permutation]

you have 8 loans from 625 in arrears. thats only a 1.28% arrear rate.. Not too bad I guess if your grades are a mixture, similar to harmoneys predictions also

Are your 8 loans actually writeoffs ?
I find I get many in arrears but have only had 1 in writeoff. Although i only have 150 loans at present

Hi whitt, you were replying to my quote "permutation". Yes, until today I have had 8 write-offs(from 625 loans taken they are not arrears) 7/8 are in the E and F grades, have been investing for 20 months.

Today I have had 3 more defaults suddenly.

1 "D" grade the other 2 "F" grades. My default $rate is now 11% of my Gross interest received to date.

I tell you what, I am going to stay completely away from E and F grades from now on.

I was thinking that a lot of people are very young in these grades and I find it a bit of a shame somewhat that Harmoney allows the facility. A fair number of them go into default according to my stats and unfortunately some of these borrowers will get a black mark on their credit record for the future.

[winner69]

Politics getting involved

Emotional stuff - govt accused of putting 45 jobs at risk

http://www.interest.co.nz/business/84043/acts-leader-tells-commerce-consumer-affairs-minister-paul-goldsmith-overrule-over

[DrewBroadley]

I could try and do the - along with redo with newer data - but I doubt I have time for a week or two as its not a very fast/automated process yet

I'd be happy to help you automate it if you want, as it's been so valuable to the community and then others can benchmark against your data.

Would be good to get an anonymous benchmarking started.

[whitt]

Hi whitt, you were replying to my quote "permutation". Yes, until today I have had 8 write-offs(from 625 loans taken they are not arrears) 7/8 are in the E and F grades, have been investing for 20 months.

Today I have had 3 more defaults suddenly.

1 "D" grade the other 2 "F" grades. My default $rate is now 11% of my Gross interest received to date.

I tell you what, I am going to stay completely away from E and F grades from now on.

I was thinking that a lot of people are very young in these grades and I find it a bit of a shame somewhat that Harmoney allows the facility. A fair number of them go into default according to my stats and unfortunately some of these borrowers will get a black mark on their credit record for the future.

I am currently sticking to a b or c only now. Also I setup autolend data to the best of my ability using data posted earlier in this thread.
Older people of those who own houses seem to default less. Since there are plenty of loans to choose from I don't mind setting auto-lend to capture just these.

[kiwi_on_OE]

I am currently sticking to a b or c only now. Also I setup autolend data to the best of my ability using data posted earlier in this thread.
Older people of those who own houses seem to default less. Since there are plenty of loans to choose from I don't mind setting auto-lend to capture just these.

Can you do that? I can see you can choose Grade (A, B, C), and Residential Status, but you can't choose their age as far as I can tell, or am I missing something.

The filters don't allow me to do the sort of thing I want, which involves a bit of maths on monthly income etc., so I'll continue to do it manually. Perhaps I'll get off my lazy arse, do some screen scrapping and do my own filtering.

[percy]

Politics getting involved

Emotional stuff - govt accused of putting 45 jobs at risk

http://www.interest.co.nz/business/84043/acts-leader-tells-commerce-consumer-affairs-minister-paul-goldsmith-overrule-over

Looks to me as though Harmoney thought they had ticked all the boxes before they started business,so the Commerce Commissions challenges appear to have blindsided them.
The Commerce Comission has been very successful tidying up shonky unacceptable fees being charged to borrowers, via legal cases such as the MTF Sportzone case.Every motorvehicle lender changed their fees well before the case hit the courts.Job done.
Person to Person lending appears to be in the Commerce Comission's view just that Person To Person, rather than through a middle man, such as Harmoney.
It would seem to me either the Government has to change the rules to make room for a middleman ,such as Harmoney,or Harmoney goes out of business unless they can find some sort of "reward" that is both profitable to them and is acceptable to the Commerce Commission.
Letting it go on for years to be sorted out,as did the Sportzone case,does not appear to be an option to me.
As a holder of Heartland shares, I do have some concerns for the capital they put into Harmoney,and for the ongoing profits from the loans they have made via Harmoney.
I am not sure whether Heartland will be in any position to qualify any of my concerns at their upcoming agm.as the matter will be "coming before the courts".
Is it material to Heartland?.Yes.

[RMJH]

Looks to me as though Harmoney thought they had ticked all the boxes before they started business,so the Commerce Commissions challenges appear to have blindsided them.
The Commerce Comission has been very successful tidying up shonky unacceptable fees being charged to borrowers, via legal cases such as the MTF Sportzone case.Every motorvehicle lender changed their fees well before the case hit the courts.Job done.
Person to Person lending appears to be in the Commerce Comission's view just that Person To Person, rather than through a middle man, such as Harmoney.
It would seem to me either the Government has to change the rules to make room for a middleman ,such as Harmoney,or Harmoney goes out of business unless they can find some sort of "reward" that is both profitable to them and is acceptable to the Commerce Commission.
Letting it go on for years to be sorted out,as did the Sportzone case,does not appear to be an option to me.
As a holder of Heartland shares, I do have some concerns for the capital they put into Harmoney,and for the ongoing profits from the loans they have made via Harmoney.
I am not sure whether Heartland will be in any position to qualify any of my concerns at their upcoming agm.as the matter will be "coming before the courts".
Is it material to Heartland?.Yes.
Makes you wonder whose interests are being served.

[whitt]

Can you do that? I can see you can choose Grade (A, B, C), and Residential Status, but you can't choose their age as far as I can tell, or am I missing something.

The filters don't allow me to do the sort of thing I want, which involves a bit of maths on monthly income etc., so I'll continue to do it manually. Perhaps I'll get off my lazy arse, do some screen scrapping and do my own filtering.
You are correct in your comment that age and monthly income are not a factor in autolend.
Maybe several of us need to suggest this option to implement.

[whitt]

You are correct in your comment that age and monthly income are not a factor in autolend.
Maybe several of us need to suggest this option to implement.
Make sure you use the residential status option in filtering if you do decide to use autolend.

[RMJH]

You are correct in your comment that age and monthly income are not a factor in autolend.
Maybe several of us need to suggest this option to implement.
Would be good to have an "Enquiries" filter too...

[permutation]

Has anyone noticed the big lag when a loan is funded to when it updates on the dashboard. I have 2 loans today that were funded about 5 hours ago, and they still show as "in funding."
Come on Harmoney what's going on?

[Investor]

Has anyone noticed the big lag when a loan is funded to when it updates on the dashboard. I have 2 loans today that were funded about 5 hours ago, and they still show as "in funding."
Come on Harmoney what's going on?

I predict they must have some form of draw down process and contact the customer once funding is completed. I've had a loan sit in 100% funded for 2-3 days before (including the weekend).

[Soolaimon]

I have come to expect anomalies in the Harmoney platform and it is annoying and time consuming to sort out, so I don't usually bother. The arrears data is never correct and just a few days ago I ordered 2 notes in a loan only to get an error message and then after 3 more attempts I gave up only to discover later that all transactions went through. I had given up on 6/8 note investing but I just could not go through the hassle to see if that could be fixed. With the huge staff numbers they have I would have thought they could be more efficient. O well it is still way ahead of bank term deposits so will keep struggling on.

[777]

I have come to expect anomalies in the Harmoney platform and it is annoying and time consuming to sort out, so I don't usually bother. The arrears data is never correct and just a few days ago I ordered 2 notes in a loan only to get an error message and then after 3 more attempts I gave up only to discover later that all transactions went through. I had given up on 6/8 note investing but I just could not go through the hassle to see if that could be fixed. With the huge staff numbers they have I would have thought they could be more efficient. O well it is still way ahead of bank term deposits so will keep struggling on.


This is written along the bottom of the Dashboard screen

"Timing of data updates can cause short-term variances between the dashboard and reports section."

I only have two loans in arrears and the dashboard is 100% correct at the present time. The more loans you have is arrears will lessen the likelihood of the amount in arrears being correct at any one point in time. But in the end what does it matter what the amount is anyway, right or wrong.

[darrenc]

Autolend loans would never hit the marketplace if they are completely filled by autolend demand. I think it would be fairer if autolend loans were allowed 15-30 minutes in the marketplace before going to autolend. This way, those of us for whom autolend is a blunt tool could still have a stab at loans which we think are going to be less risky.

[RMJH]

Autolend loans would never hit the marketplace if they are completely filled by autolend demand. I think it would be fairer if autolend loans were allowed 15-30 minutes in the marketplace before going to autolend. This way, those of us for whom autolend is a blunt tool could still have a stab at loans which we think are going to be less risky.
The minority with time to cherry pick should be given preference? I don't think so! However still seems to be a similar number of listings so don't think there is an autolend vacuum cleaner effect. Same could be said of the institutional funding.

As an aside it seems autolend doesn't cover all loans. I have clear examples where loans which meet my criteria but don't get picked up. I think maybe it is where several enquiries have been made so is a good thing given there is not a filter for this.

[darrenc]

The minority with time to cherry pick should be given preference? I don't think so! However still seems to be a similar number of listings so don't think there is an autolend vacuum cleaner effect. Same could be said of the institutional funding.

As an aside it seems autolend doesn't cover all loans. I have clear examples where loans which meet my criteria but don't get picked up. I think maybe it is where several enquiries have been made so is a good thing given there is not a filter for this.

Not everyone has autolend yet. I have 2 accounts and only one of them has been invited. Plus, people will take time to get used to it and implement it. Different people come on to Harmoney at different times of the day. Who has time to sit refreshing the screen the whole day?

[Investor]

Harmoney has stated that normally auto-lend loans receive priority in funding before hitting the wider marketplace. They do however state that it is possible for them to have less than 100% of loans being prioritized by auto-lend depending on auto-lend vs wider user demand. I believe it would be very naive to assume Harmoney is not investing for you in auto-lend due to the number of enquiries. You definitely will get auto-invested into loans with a high number of enquiries with the current filters not allowing for us to select our preferences.

[permutation]

Autolend loans would never hit the marketplace if they are completely filled by autolend demand. I think it would be fairer if autolend loans were allowed 15-30 minutes in the marketplace before going to autolend. This way, those of us for whom autolend is a blunt tool could still have a stab at loans which we think are going to be less risky.

In my experience over the last 2 weeks taking B-D grades, auto lend loan demand is filled before hitting the marketplace. Most of my auto-lends were only about 25>40% full and were available for several hours even a day!.

[whitt]

Harmoney has stated that normally auto-lend loans receive priority in funding before hitting the wider marketplace. They do however state that it is possible for them to have less than 100% of loans being prioritized by auto-lend depending on auto-lend vs wider user demand. I believe it would be very naive to assume Harmoney is not investing for you in auto-lend due to the number of enquiries. You definitely will get auto-invested into loans with a high number of enquiries with the current filters not allowing for us to select our preferences.
My gut feeling with the harmoney autolend priority comment is that they will limit % quantity of autolend in each loan.
They might even tweak or adjust these limits over the coming months untill they find a suitable figure that makes it fair for all investors.

[Investor]

My gut feeling with the harmoney autolend priority comment is that they will limit % quantity of autolend in each loan.
They might even tweak or adjust these limits over the coming months untill they find a suitable figure that makes it fair for all investors.

Yeah I don't think they will keep it at 100% auto-lend as they want to entice new investors to get involved.

[777]

If the intent is to give auto loan priority then that is another reason not to invest with them at all.

[RMJH]

Harmoney has stated that normally auto-lend loans receive priority in funding before hitting the wider marketplace. They do however state that it is possible for them to have less than 100% of loans being prioritized by auto-lend depending on auto-lend vs wider user demand. I believe it would be very naive to assume Harmoney is not investing for you in auto-lend due to the number of enquiries. You definitely will get auto-invested into loans with a high number of enquiries with the current filters not allowing for us to select our preferences.
Yes, I agree but it does seem (at this very early stage) that many of the loans that don't go to autolend are also unattractive for whatever reason. It's almost like someone decides if a loan is suitable for autolend or might be contentious. I just wish an outrageously obvious desperate buisiness cash flow loan (described as debt consolidation) that I got today had been one of them! But I still think we are really lucky to have the choices provided by this platform. At Zopa I have no say on what loans are invested, not even the grades!

[Saamee]

https://au-sn02.marketo.com/rs/915-LSX-181/images/Logo-Harmoney-400x73.png (http://mkto-sn020157.com/b0000QSZkLh0Xv0E030Gh54)





















Oops. We made a mistake this morning.
https://go.harmoney.com/rs/915-LSX-181/images/Logo-Harmoney-Wave-Yellow-100x16.png

Hi XXXX,
We recently switched to a new email system - which, while super exciting both for us and our customers, can sometimes come with a few teething issues.
Unfortunately, a data quirk resulted in you receiving an email this morning, stating that your application was approved. Obviously, as you have already taken a loan with us, this was sent in error

[Saamee]

BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!!!

You may have just received an email not intended for you. Ironically enough, the email did say a few things that are correct: We recently switched to a new email system - which, while super exciting both for us and our customers, can sometimes come with a few teething issues. Today it means that we accidentally sent you the wrong email - for which we sincerely apologise.
Here's what you were meant to receive:
As you will be aware, in June this year we moved from our Service fee model (1.25% of all Principal and Interest repaid), to a tiered Lender fee model that applied to the Interest only. This change, however, was only applied to new lending - with all loans that you had invested in prior to June 13th continuing to have the older Service fee model applied.
Unfortunately, on September 19th a technical error in a software update inadvertently stopped applying the 1.25% Service fee to Principal repayments on your pre-June loans. This means you have been undercharged $ XX.XX. We have now fixed the issue, and will debit your lender account by $ XX.XX today (20th October). At the same time, we will be adjusting for a double payout of principal which also occurred in September.

[CR111]

It is getting more and more difficult to trust Harmoney.

[Saamee]

I am SO over Harmoney.... And to think I trust them with both my Money and My Personal Details!!!


Monica Mathis <monica.mathis@harmoney.co.nz> (monica.mathis@harmoney.co.nz)
To
xxxxxx (xxxxxx*)lenderservices@harmoney.co.nz
Today at 15:20
Good afternoon xxx
Thanks so much for your note. We apologies profusely to have two such issues in one month.
We apologise for any inconvenience.
Monica


--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: xxxx
Sent: 20/10/2016 3:01 PM
To: lenderservices@harmoney.co.nz
Subject: Re: Our sincere apologies

Idiots!


Really.


Try, trying harder!

[Kelvin]

LOL

I experienced another issue this week too - on Monday I changed my bank account details and made a withdrawal. The funds appeared in my new bank account as expected.

Yesterday I made another withdrawal, and the funds ended up in my old bank account!

[Investor]

BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!!!

You may have just received an email not intended for you. Ironically enough, the email did say a few things that are correct: We recently switched to a new email system - which, while super exciting both for us and our customers, can sometimes come with a few teething issues. Today it means that we accidentally sent you the wrong email - for which we sincerely apologise.
Here's what you were meant to receive:
As you will be aware, in June this year we moved from our Service fee model (1.25% of all Principal and Interest repaid), to a tiered Lender fee model that applied to the Interest only. This change, however, was only applied to new lending - with all loans that you had invested in prior to June 13th continuing to have the older Service fee model applied.
Unfortunately, on September 19th a technical error in a software update inadvertently stopped applying the 1.25% Service fee to Principal repayments on your pre-June loans. This means you have been undercharged $ XX.XX. We have now fixed the issue, and will debit your lender account by $ XX.XX today (20th October). At the same time, we will be adjusting for a double payout of principal which also occurred in September.

Same issue here, they offered no information around the adjustment they shall make for the double payout of principal so I have questioned them for detail r.e this as should be expected.

[JohnMac]

Kelvin - Had the same problem - when I asked them about it they said they had both my old and new account numbers and their system had used the old account number. Told them that I could only see my new account number on their system and there was no option of entering two account numbers. They were not able to explain that? I think what happened was that they had done a restore at some stage which reverted my account number back to the old number.

[Darchie]

Same issue here, they offered no information around the adjustment they shall make for the double payout of principal so I have questioned them for detail r.e this as should be expected.

Unless Investor it's like my current long running query with them... that I've followed up a couple of times and yes it's been esculated. ... but absolutely no reply, response or fix.... absolutely zip!

Maybe they're a bit like goldfish in a bowl at the moment swimming around in circles and achieving pretty much nothing!

I too got their emails yesterday .... and yes I'd be interested to hear if you are satisfied by any detail that's supplied!

[Investor]

Unless Investor it's like my current long running query with them... that I've followed up a couple of times and yes it's been esculated. ... but absolutely no reply, response or fix.... absolutely zip!

Maybe they're a bit like goldfish in a bowl at the moment swimming around in circles and achieving pretty much nothing!

I too got their emails yesterday .... and yes I'd be interested to hear if you are satisfied by any detail that's supplied!

Yeah they explained the amount disclosed for the adjustment included the adjustment for paying principle twice in September. Just poor wording on their initial email.

[Saamee]

No other comment required!

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/disharmony (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/disharmony)

8395

[whitt]

And on the opposite side of reality LC continues to offer a faultless service, although there are very few loans to invest in,

[Saamee]

And on the opposite side of reality LC continues to offer a faultless service, although there are very few loans to invest in,

Have invested in 3 already today and 2 yesterday! :)

[kiwi_on_OE]

And on the opposite side of reality LC continues to offer a faultless service, although there are very few loans to invest in,

To be a little bit of a devil's advocate. LC isn't faultless. There was the example a few days ago that their start and end dates are inaccurate. I also think they get away with stuff because they provide so little information compared to Harmoney. Whereas Harmoney have a fair bit of info, so it's sometimes obvious when they have stuffed up. Of course Harmoney do stuff up more than they should.

[RMJH]

Have invested in 3 already today and 2 yesterday! :)
I have never really considered the others. How long do you think it would take to build a diversified portfolio of say 300 loans? cheers R

[Saamee]

I have never really considered the others. How long do you think it would take to build a diversified portfolio of say 300 loans? cheers R

Have been investing with LC for just over 10 months now and have a total of 210 Open and Closed loans.

Mixed with Squirrel and Old Harmoney loans.... Although the rate that they churn and Re-write it only takes a little over 6 months to get 50% of your funding back!!

Below is the breakdown of where my funding is placed today ( over 15 month total investing and readjusting >

8402

By the way no written off Capital over at LC ( yet ) a few arrears here and there but so far always got made good.

Squirrel has their 'Slush Fund' so even if a loan is written off it is still paid out to Investors!

Happy Days....

[Investor]

How is everyone structuring their loan risk grades for their portfolio? Most people I have come across seem to prefer going with loans around the D grade mostly for a higher return, assuming there is no large economic event. At the moment I'm considering structuring mine as 40% A, 30% B, 20% C and 10% D. (Currently it is mostly A/B with some C) I prefer to not lend at such high interest rates and also am happy with a stable RAR of around 12%.

Any comments on this grade structure or how you are structuring your portfolio?

[permutation]

How is every-one enjoying or (not) Auto-Lending.
I like it, investing when I'm out doing other things.

[CR111]

How is everyone structuring their loan risk grades for their portfolio? Most people I have come across seem to prefer going with loans around the D grade mostly for a higher return, assuming there is no large economic event. At the moment I'm considering structuring mine as 40% A, 30% B, 20% C and 10% D. (Currently it is mostly A/B with some C) I prefer to not lend at such high interest rates and also am happy with a stable RAR of around 12%.

Any comments on this grade structure or how you are structuring your portfolio?

I'm aiming for mine to be B - 10% ,C - 40% , D - 40% , E - 7.5% , F - 2.5%

That is spread out over a large number of loans. So far the RAR has stayed very stable.

[RMJH]

How is everyone structuring their loan risk grades for their portfolio? Most people I have come across seem to prefer going with loans around the D grade mostly for a higher return, assuming there is no large economic event. At the moment I'm considering structuring mine as 40% A, 30% B, 20% C and 10% D. (Currently it is mostly A/B with some C) I prefer to not lend at such high interest rates and also am happy with a stable RAR of around 12%.

Any comments on this grade structure or how you are structuring your portfolio?

I have averaged 13.6% over the last 18 months with a portfolio broadly evenly split A,B,C, and D. This is slightly above the platform rate though I built a lot of my volume during the period when fees were low. However, I can't see that a diversified portfolio of E's and F's would be much more profitable and therefore, for me, they are not worth the risk.

[RMJH]

How is every-one enjoying or (not) Auto-Lending.
I like it, investing when I'm out doing other things.
I'm a fan but would prefer a complete set of filters eg Defaults and Enquiries. I still read a few of the stories to get a feeling of the general level of quality of applications though of course this is a bit hit and miss. I am sticking with the old lending limits for now.

[permutation]

I'm a fan but would prefer a complete set of filters eg Defaults and Enquiries. I still read a few of the stories to get a feeling of the general level of quality of applications though of course this is a bit hit and miss. I am sticking with the old lending limits for now.

I don't think I have ever seen a default other than 0 on listed loans. Enquiries yes 1 to 5, I generally prefer 1 to 3 for enquiries. But for me over the last 19 months lending, the disaster has been E and F grades, which I did take in the first few months as a novice. 700+ loans now and my latest stats just a week or so ago was 9 of 11 loans that were written off were E and F grades.

I will never take those grades again because for me there is too much risk, which takes the net return backwards.

So far I have had about 45 auto loans specifically A5 to D2 max. The profile stats are not to bad and I am quite happy with those.

One filter that I would like introduced by Harmoney is one that I have named "RvIR" (Repayment vs Income Ratio) I always make a mental note of this ratio.

I reject generally any listed loan that has an RvIR of more than about 16%. Thankfully most of my Auto-Loan RvIR's were less than 20%. Probably resulting from the very strict filter options I have in place.

I have explained in earlier posts about the criteria I use for lending.

[Darchie]

I have 4 given as hardship status, have you any of these?

[RMJH]

My RAR is still climbing. It has been going up for six months now. I was expecting the new fees structure to start biting but no sign yet of what must surely come. 13.91% on even mix of A to D',s well diversified (2500 loans), and built up over 18 months. Happy days! How are others going?

[Investor]

10.49%

I was only invested in A/B until about a month ago. Now i'm planning for a RAR of approx 14% and investing in C/D to get there.

[Bjauck]

My RAR is still climbing. It has been going up for six months now. I was expecting the new fees structure to start biting but no sign yet of what must surely come. 13.91% on even mix of A to D',s well diversified (2500 loans), and built up over 18 months. Happy days! How are others going?

How reliable are the RARs in light of the service charge/lender fee error adjustments that Harmoney put through last week? Do the latest RARs incorporate the adjustments? If lenders had been undercharged fees, will previous monthly RARs actually be overstated? Similarly, have the platform statistics been corrected?

[Investor]

According to Harmoney, the RAR update is 'accurate' as at 20th October. They took a little longer to update it so I'm sure they would of adjusted for any prior errors.

[mccollr]

I have 330 loans @ $100 each. My RAR is 15.93. No science or system. Just reinvest all returns "lowest to highest" risk of what is available on the day.
I am attracted by the opportunity of compounding interest. There is a lack of good compounding investments available in NZ.

[permutation]

I have 330 loans @ $100 each. My RAR is 15.93. No science or system. Just reinvest all returns "lowest to highest" risk of what is available on the day.
I am attracted by the opportunity of compounding interest. There is a lack of good compounding investments available in NZ.

Interesting, so what would be your "charge-off" rate in $terms being exposed to high risk loans?

[mccollr]

Interesting, so what would be your "charge-off" rate in $terms being exposed to high risk loans?

Sorry I should have added that information. My charge off is $100 and arrears sitting at $54. It tends to hover between $40 and $50.

[humvee]

8409

I see that 3 people are achieving RAR's of over 20% with more then 800 Loans, Are any of them about on this forum? If so what technique are they useing?

Im on a RAR of 16.89% with well over 1000 loans which I think is fairly good - It most likely would have been higher if I had not got caught up in every single loan the big fraud case early on (10+ loans)
8410

[Bjauck]

According to Harmoney, the RAR update is 'accurate' as at 20th October. They took a little longer to update it so I'm sure they would of adjusted for any prior errors. It certainly makes the increase in Retail platform RAR for October all the more impressive then. The new lender fee has yet to catch up with the increased interest rates, even taking into account the recent adjustment charge. Perhaps retail lenders had fewer write-offs.

[Bjauck]

8409

I see that 3 people are achieving RAR's of over 20% with more then 800 Loans, Are any of them about on this forum? If so what technique are they useing?

Im on a RAR of 16.89% with well over 1000 loans which I think is fairly good - It most likely would have been higher if I had not got caught up in every single loan the big fraud case early on (10+ loans)
8410

Would it depend on for how long they have invested most of their money? If most of their money was invested within the last nine months, then they may not have been fully exposed to charge-offs yet.

[Bjauck]

Sorry I should have added that information. My charge off is $100 and arrears sitting at $54. It tends to hover between $40 and $50. When did you invest most of your capital into Harmoney?

[humvee]

Would it depend on for how long they have invested most of their money? If most of their money was invested within the last nine months, then they may not have been fully exposed to charge-offs yet.

Looking at my historic RAR data I had a RAR of over 20% for weeks 16-17 and weeks 20-45 of my portfolio age - but never again since (but I would not have had over 800 loans ever during that time)

[heisenberg]

If you were getting started in P2P lending today, would you still go for Harmoney or switch to another platform?

Although it offers the better interest rates and loan availability, are the Harmoney loan write offs and seemingly repeated stuff ups enough to make you change?

The other platforms seem more sound in general, but I see no point in getting involved if there aren't enough loans to invest in and/or high enough interest rates

[Saamee]

If you were getting started in P2P lending today, would you still go for Harmoney or switch to another platform?

Although it offers the better interest rates and loan availability, are the Harmoney loan write offs and seemingly repeated stuff ups enough to make you change?

The other platforms seem more sound in general, but I see no point in getting involved if there aren't enough loans to invest in and/or high enough interest rates

#1- You want your Capital back!!

You will most likely get that with either Squirrel or Lending Crowd ( both offer some kind of guarantee or security )

Harmoney in time you most likely WILL lose some of your Capital...

Also many Investors struggle to make over 12% to 15% at Harmoney because of the Write Offs!

[RMJH]

If you were getting started in P2P lending today, would you still go for Harmoney or switch to another platform?

Although it offers the better interest rates and loan availability, are the Harmoney loan write offs and seemingly repeated stuff ups enough to make you change?

The other platforms seem more sound in general, but I see no point in getting involved if there aren't enough loans to invest in and/or high enough interest rates
There seems to be a lot of negativity here at times which I suspect is not representative of the whole investor base. Personally I am very happy with Harmoney and find them very open. I would not touch the others unless they got a lot bigger.

[permutation]

I see that 3 people are achieving RAR's of over 20% with more then 800 Loans, Are any of them about on this forum? If so what technique are they useing?

Im on a RAR of 16.89% with well over 1000 loans which I think is fairly good - It most likely would have been higher if I had not got caught up in every single loan the big fraud case early on (10+ loans)
8410

With over 750 Loans and a RAR of 14% I have a good idea of the way I want to structure my lending going forward. I have created a risk spread table from my current data, I will now heavily stack my investment money into B and C grades, with a sprinkling of A and D. Then ultimately E and F grades will vanish from my chart either through repayment or more write-offs, then I should see my RAR steadily increase to at least 17-18%.

8414

[heisenberg]

Is that 14% including or excluding write offs?

[permutation]

Is that 14% including or excluding write offs?

Would be including, the RAR is as posted on the website.

[Cool Bear]

8409

I see that 3 people are achieving RAR's of over 20% with more then 800 Loans, Are any of them about on this forum? If so what technique are they useing?

Im on a RAR of 16.89% with well over 1000 loans which I think is fairly good - It most likely would have been higher if I had not got caught up in every single loan the big fraud case early on (10+ loans)
8410

Hi Humvee, your RAR is very high for your number of loans. I am struggling to keep mine above 14% - just hit 3000 loans, 16 months so far, 65 write offs. I will be extremely happy if I can hit 15%. The last 6 months my RAR had been between 13.62 and 14.12.

[whitt]

Hi Humvee, your RAR is very high for your number of loans. I am struggling to keep mine above 14% - just hit 3000 loans, 16 months so far, 65 write offs. I will be extremely happy if I can hit 15%. The last 6 months my RAR had been between 13.62 and 14.12.
I agree approx 14% seems a good achievable number at present without adding too much risk.
I am hovering around this figure too, it was higher but writeoffs brought it back down.

I might give up chasing high returns and tweak my autolend options for this figure too. It seems a fair return I can live with

[Snow Leopard]

8409

...

Looks like a classic statistical chart.

The more loans you have the closer your returns are likely to be to the average (mean? median? I forget the correct term).

Anybody actually have a handle on RAR per risk grade - just curious.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[Cool Bear]

Looks like a classic statistical chart.

The more loans you have the closer your returns are likely to be to the average (mean? median? I forget the correct term).

Anybody actually have a handle on RAR per risk grade - just curious.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

You can get an estimate from their figures below (ave int less ave defaults less a bit of timing difference = RAR) if only their estimated defaults rates are accurate. My estimate so far is that their default rates need to be increased by 50 to 100% to reflect the actual default rate. I guess if you are in it long enough (say 3 to 5 years) and have enough loans, you can work it out based on your loans. Still early days yet!

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Performance-Graphs/oct16-Update/graph7-oct16.png?_ga=1.222915730.820063574.1441057231

[Cool Bear]

Their website seems to be down at the moment!

[Snow Leopard]

Tak (as the Danes say) - Cool Bear

I chucked those numbers at a spreadsheet and came out with 14.3% overall.
So assuming my assumptions are correctly assumed, then the it looks right.
The alternative is that we have one of those co-incidences.

For each individual grade I have:
A: 10.0%
B: 12.1%
C: 15.3%
D: 18.5%
E: 20.8%
F: 17.6%

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger


http://movlocker.com/admin/imdb/posters/1832029636.jpeg

[Bjauck]

You can get an estimate from their figures below (ave int less ave defaults less a bit of timing difference = RAR) if only their estimated defaults rates are accurate. My estimate so far is that their default rates need to be increased by 50 to 100% to reflect the actual default rate. I guess if you are in it long enough (say 3 to 5 years) and have enough loans, you can work it out based on your loans. Still early days yet!

https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Performance-Graphs/oct16-Update/graph7-oct16.png?_ga=1.222915730.820063574.1441057231

Would "churn" or the frequency of rewrites and early repayments affect the actual default rate experienced by an investor. Harmoney may correctly assign the default risk for the life time of a loan in a certain grade. However if your $25 in a loan note, that has not been charged off, is repaid early and then subsequently reinvested, then it again faces the risk of being charged off again.

The annual default rate for loans is an average figure. There are fewer defaults in the latter period of a loan, so frequent early repayments and rewrites I guess would mean that your $25 would be more likely to be invested in the riskier earlier period of a loan.

[Finite]

Would "churn" or the frequency of rewrites and early repayments affect the actual default rate experienced by an investor. Harmoney may correctly assign the default risk for the life time of a loan in a certain grade. However if your $25 in a loan note, that has not been charged off, is repaid early and then subsequently reinvested, then it again faces the risk of being charged off again.

The annual default rate for loans is an average figure. There are fewer defaults in the latter period of a loan, so frequent early repayments and rewrites I guess would mean that your $25 would be more likely to be invested in the riskier earlier period of a loan.

So very true!
Hence my anger at Harmoney promoting rewrites - not only did it use to boost their fees from investors ( but it also resets you into the high risk period that you mention).
BTW I have given up due to the lack of a secondary market and am withdrawing funds as they are repaid.

[Investor]

If you're that concerned about reinvesting funds from a loan that was paid off early, you should invest in safer grades. Having a loan repaid early is hardly a bad thing.

[Cool Bear]

I agree with Investor, other than the old fees on principal, having your loan paid back early is good for us. And I think it lowers your default rate rather than raise it as you now got a successful loan (in that you got your money back).

[permutation]

With over 750 Loans and a RAR of 14% I have a good idea of the way I want to structure my lending going forward. I have created a risk spread table from my current data, I will now heavily stack my investment money into B and C grades, with a sprinkling of A and D. Then ultimately E and F grades will vanish from my chart either through repayment or more write-offs, then I should see my RAR steadily increase to at least 17-18%.

8414

So no-one has an opinion about the information I provide to possibly to help others.
I have decided to never post again on this forum!

[Snow Leopard]

So no-one has an opinion about the information I provide to possibly to help others.
I have decided to never post again on this forum!

OK - If you want to pack a sad that is fine but you should read my post with regard to individual grade RAR's first.

If it is correct, and it may well not be, then your scheme will not give you as high a return as you expect.

Bye Bye
Paper Tiger

[whitt]

So no-one has an opinion about the information I provide to possibly to help others.
I have decided to never post again on this forum!
I read it and opened attachment. Nice data , it is similar to what i already do and results are same as i found.
I have come to the realization that approx 14% is easier to achieve with just doing loans 11 to 16% rather than the wide spread of A & E etc
I tried doing higher risk loans to chase returns but a single writeoff brings it back towards 14% anyway. No point fighting it so gave up and cruise now using autolend and rules set.

[whitt]

Who has been using autolend and wants to share the criteria they use plus the results.

Here is a couple of my snapshots from Marketplace>Autolend and Marketplace>Orders ( magic wand are autoloans)

This criteria appears to give several loans ranging from 11 to 16% which I think is a fair return. As many users in this forum seem to hover about this range and 1% higher than the platform average.

Who else is keen to share criteria and results?

8419
8420

[Investor]

I had autolend on for two days however as a result I'm now invested in a C grade with 7 enquiries! Would rather do things manually as the amount of cash I am contributing is easily invested before the next opportunity I have to add funds arrives.

[Bjauck]

I agree with Investor, other than the old fees on principal, having your loan paid back early is good for us. And I think it lowers your default rate rather than raise it as you now got a successful loan (in that you got your money back). Having an early repayment is definitely better than a default - if it were just a binary choice between those two outcomes. However as a non-default outcome for the loan note, I would prefer the loan to run its full term.

[Bjauck]

I had autolend on for two days however as a result I'm now invested in a C grade with 7 enquiries! Would rather do things manually as the amount of cash I am contributing is easily invested before the next opportunity I have to add funds arrives. Autolend needs more options.

[Investor]

Autolend needs more options.

Yeah I've been meaning to contact them to suggest this. I'm sure others may of already. They may not want a near fool-proof Auto Lend filter as this may encourage further 'cherry picking' of loans and reduce their revenue :)

[whitt]

I had autolend on for two days however as a result I'm now invested in a C grade with 7 enquiries! Would rather do things manually as the amount of cash I am contributing is easily invested before the next opportunity I have to add funds arrives.
The six autolend loans I got are all a and b grades. All have 1 enquiry too. If you got a grade c that is merely a filter option that can be avoided. Enquires I ignore as I am yet to see hard data t show default rates on these types of people.

I am happy with my filter so far it seems to have picked quite well. Not 100% perfect but definitely better than no filter.

[Cool Bear]

Having an early repayment is definitely better than a default - if it were just a binary choice between those two outcomes. However as a non-default outcome for the loan note, I would prefer the loan to run its full term.
Yes, I would prefer the loan to run its full term too.

My point is that having a paid off loan would lower your default rate rather than increase it in reply to an (yours?) earlier post. That post implies that having an early paid off loan would mean that your money is invested in a new loan and defaults are usually in the first few months of a loan thereby increasing the default rate.

That is similar to arguing that an earlier coin toss would affect the result of a later coin toss. A lot of people think that if you get three "heads" then the next toss is likely to be a "tail". However, every toss is 50:50 regardless of what comes before.

A lot of people are confused with the probability of getting 4 heads in a row (which is before the very first toss) vs the probability of each toss which is always 50:50.

[Bjauck]

Yes, I would prefer the loan to run its full term too....
A lot of people are confused with the probability of getting 4 heads in a row (which is before the very first toss) vs the probability of each toss which is always 50:50. The way I see it is with early repayments means you have to to get those four heads in a row, rather than just getting one head.

With the coin toss analogy....I agree the chance of a head/tail is unaffected by the previous results. So if you are given 5 minutes to flip coins and you lose if you get just one 'tail", then If you do five flips, then you have five times the probability of getting a "tail" than if you had just one flip.

So with your $25 invested in harmoney for five years, if you have four early repayments and reinvest the money four times in notes of the same grade with the same default rate, then you will have had five chances of striking a defaulter within the five year period.

[Cool Bear]

Who has been using autolend and wants to share the criteria they use plus the results.

Here is a couple of my snapshots from Marketplace>Autolend and Marketplace>Orders ( magic wand are autoloans)

This criteria appears to give several loans ranging from 11 to 16% which I think is a fair return. As many users in this forum seem to hover about this range and 1% higher than the platform average.

Who else is keen to share criteria and results?

8419
8420

I don't use Autolend. Like some others here, I find the filter options not comprehensive enough.

[Investor]

The six autolend loans I got are all a and b grades. All have 1 enquiry too. If you got a grade c that is merely a filter option that can be avoided. Enquires I ignore as I am yet to see hard data t show default rates on these types of people.

I am happy with my filter so far it seems to have picked quite well. Not 100% perfect but definitely better than no filter.

That's true but as I only need C and D loans at the moment, my filter was set to invest in those. I'm happy doing everything manually again and the one loan with 7 enquiries won't be too much of an impact.

[Saamee]

Any other Investors had issues Withdrawing all current Funds in your account today?

Could take whole Dollar amounts out today but not the Cents?

Get the below Error message....

8426

[Investor]

Any other Investors had issues Withdrawing all current Funds in your account today?

Could take whole Dollar amounts out today but not the Cents?

Get the below Error message....

8426

Just try logging in again / refreshing the page. I've seen that box pop up before for no valid reason and a quick refresh usually solves the problem.

[Kelvin]

I can't make a withdrawal either...

Refresh, log in again, trying whole $ amounts, cents all not working... Really pathetic Harmoney :mad ;:

[777]

Moaning on here won't fix things. Email them and let them know.

[Saamee]

I can't make a withdrawal either...

Refresh, log in again, trying whole $ amounts, cents all not working... Really pathetic Harmoney :mad ;:

All working today ( for me! ) - They must have made an update overnight?

[Kelvin]

All working today ( for me! ) - They must have made an update overnight?

Still broken for me... I had $50 to withdraw and it failed.

So I withdrew $5 and it worked! So then I withdrew my money in $5 and $10 lots until all my $50 was withdrawn

[Saamee]

Still broken for me... I had $50 to withdraw and it failed.

So I withdrew $5 and it worked! So then I withdrew my money in $5 and $10 lots until all my $50 was withdrawn

True. My account worked fine today. But my wife's account still failed ( just like yesterday )

In the end ( like you ) did the whole dollar withdrawal and then went back tried again and also got the Cents out today!!

[Art]

That's true but as I only need C and D loans at the moment, my filter was set to invest in those. I'm happy doing everything manually again and the one loan with 7 enquiries won't be too much of an impact.

I've had autolend running for 2 1/2 weeks now and 107 loans invested using it. It has been As and Bs that I have been needing to get my spread close to target and so I have had my criteria set fairly tightly. There may be a few loans I would not have chosen myself but generally I am very happy with the autolend. It certainly saves a lot of my time - particularly since I strongly believe in having the widest spread possible. The higher risk loans I am still choosing manually. I would like to see a few more filters on the autolend, the main one being ratio of loan instalment to income - at the moment I generally get around this by having the max loan value at $25,000 so in most cases the instalment is not too high compared to income. It would also be good if we could have two or more different filters active for autolend at any one time.

[BJ1]

Good morning. I have spent the past day reading the last 70 pages of this thread. Common themes are concerns over the fees charged by Harmoney and the things investors would like to be added to available options. From time to time there are grizzles and sometimes Harmoney people have suggested those be taken offline for resolution. I've been with Harmoney since January 2015 and have attached a screendump of my current position. I have 111 loans currently invested and as you will see my total arrears at present is $76 with no charge offs so far. I cherry pick my investments based on 40 years lending experience.

The reason I am writing on this forum is because I am displeased with the responses from Harmoney when I raise issues with them. To date these issues have related to platform failures (from my perspective). I do not accept that it is appropriate for a professional tech platform to have timing differences so that investors see conflicting information on different parts of the platform - when I am told my total arrears are $76 I expect to be able to see the composition of that total in individual loans but on occasions there has been a difference that has lasted for days, not minutes or hours. I do not expect to have funds withdrawn from my account for an investment which has been confirmed but cancelled and to have that money missing for over 10 days. I do expect that when I raise such issues and receive commitments to respond with answers, that I will receive such responses.

Such matters make me wonder how I will feel when I am informed of my first write off. Will I feel comfortable with Harmoney's recovery process? How will I know that reasonable recovery action has occurred? Is the recovery process actually clearly understood by investors?

Frankly, while I understand the risk / reward scenario very well, the part of the risk I don't understand is how Harmony considers that its platform is professional and competent when it produces what is clearly false information from time to time (just look at some of the stated incomes on loans), appears not to have adequate checks in place (people being offered loans when not all parts of the process have been completed - per comments earlier in this thread and my own experience). But, while I can filter out such loans based on experience many investors obviously aren't doing so and those with automatic investment mechanisms (which include the major players such as Heartland) have no hope of doing so. It is all very well for Harmoney to talk about expected results net of defaults but when defaults are produced because of a lack of thorough checks of basic information then Harmoney itself is at risk of legal action. Any business running a $300million loan portfolio is expected to be professional and competent. In my mind Harmoney doesn't meet those criteria.

So, how many agree? Should there be a clear process for debt recovery (as that really is the business end of the risk)? Can investors be certain that recovery action meets industry standards? Are investors at risk as has been suggested earlier in this forum, of a blasé attitude to recovery because the net of default return is well above alternative options?

8431

[humvee]

Good morning. I have spent the past day reading the last 70 pages of this thread. Common themes are concerns over the fees charged by Harmoney and the things investors would like to be added to available options. From time to time there are grizzles and sometimes Harmoney people have suggested those be taken offline for resolution. I've been with Harmoney since January 2015 and have attached a screendump of my current position. I have 111 loans currently invested and as you will see my total arrears at present is $76 with no charge offs so far. I cherry pick my investments based on 40 years lending experience.

The reason I am writing on this forum is because I am displeased with the responses from Harmoney when I raise issues with them. To date these issues have related to platform failures (from my perspective). I do not accept that it is appropriate for a professional tech platform to have timing differences so that investors see conflicting information on different parts of the platform - when I am told my total arrears are $76 I expect to be able to see the composition of that total in individual loans but on occasions there has been a difference that has lasted for days, not minutes or hours. I do not expect to have funds withdrawn from my account for an investment which has been confirmed but cancelled and to have that money missing for over 10 days. I do expect that when I raise such issues and receive commitments to respond with answers, that I will receive such responses.

Such matters make me wonder how I will feel when I am informed of my first write off. Will I feel comfortable with Harmoney's recovery process? How will I know that reasonable recovery action has occurred? Is the recovery process actually clearly understood by investors?

Frankly, while I understand the risk / reward scenario very well, the part of the risk I don't understand is how Harmony considers that its platform is professional and competent when it produces what is clearly false information from time to time (just look at some of the stated incomes on loans), appears not to have adequate checks in place (people being offered loans when not all parts of the process have been completed - per comments earlier in this thread and my own experience). But, while I can filter out such loans based on experience many investors obviously aren't doing so and those with automatic investment mechanisms (which include the major players such as Heartland) have no hope of doing so. It is all very well for Harmoney to talk about expected results net of defaults but when defaults are produced because of a lack of thorough checks of basic information then Harmoney itself is at risk of legal action. Any business running a $300million loan portfolio is expected to be professional and competent. In my mind Harmoney doesn't meet those criteria.

So, how many agree? Should there be a clear process for debt recovery (as that really is the business end of the risk)? Can investors be certain that recovery action meets industry standards? Are investors at risk as has been suggested earlier in this forum, of a blasé attitude to recovery because the net of default return is well above alternative options?

8431


You have done well to have no charge off's over a portfolio that size over that time period, I do have a different risk curve to you and a higher RAR, But I also have MASSIVELY higher charge off's too, in $ terms my portfolio is smaller then yours (I'm not on harmoneys lowest fee band yet)

To date they have recovered $47.30 of charged off loans (over half came from a single charged off loan that was repaid in full)

If you only have 111 loans for that size portfolio you must invest a lot more per loan than me, Most loans i only invest 1 note($25) a small number I get 2 notes, and on rear almost non-existant occasions I get 3 notes in a loan
My active loans using a correctly configured filter is 1922 (harmoneys incorrect filter shows only 1909 as they exclude hardship, protect waiver, and protect waived)

8433

[BJ1]

On a purely unemotional basis the only determinant to a good strategy is the final return net of all costs. On that basis to date you are way ahead of me, provided that Harmoney is accurately calculating RAR after write-offs. Have you independently checked your RAR? When Harmoney uses a formula that results in a negative 140% return I have some doubts about their information and systems - I have checked accuracy and am happy they are getting it right for positive return situations but where there is a negative involved they should not be applying the same formula as it produces rubbish (like 140% loss - which I have pointed out and all I get back is that that is the result the formula provides - no acknowledgement that the formula is wrong -another reason for me to doubt their competency). I have an aversion to the F grade loans and am very selective about C-E. Now that autolend is available I have created a C-E filter which meets my needs and will see how it goes - on a risk basis with the volume I have making each loan $100 is fine by me - in fact I'd like a higher minimum as to date I have taken positions in E1-E4 of between $300 and $500 each

[humvee]

On a purely unemotional basis the only determinant to a good strategy is the final return net of all costs. On that basis to date you are way ahead of me, provided that Harmoney is accurately calculating RAR after write-offs. Have you independently checked your RAR? When Harmoney uses a formula that results in a negative 140% return I have some doubts about their information and systems - I have checked accuracy and am happy they are getting it right for positive return situations but where there is a negative involved they should not be applying the same formula as it produces rubbish (like 140% loss - which I have pointed out and all I get back is that that is the result the formula provides - no acknowledgement that the formula is wrong -another reason for me to doubt their competency). I have an aversion to the F grade loans and am very selective about C-E. Now that autolend is available I have created a C-E filter which meets my needs and will see how it goes - on a risk basis with the volume I have making each loan $100 is fine by me - in fact I'd like a higher minimum as to date I have taken positions in E1-E4 of between $300 and $500 each

-140% return per annum is fairly easy to get you just need to lose 70% of your money in 6 months

I have not checked the RAR's figures myself for 4 or 5 months - When I was checking them I always got withing +/-1% of harmoneys number for RAR - but never got within 0.2% of their number.

[BJ1]

Any formula which reports a loss greater than 100% is incorrect. If after six months an investor has only 30% of the original investment left then the loss is 70%. Losses should not be annualised. Only investment returns should be annualised to provide an accurate representation of the return achieved over time. If losses were to be annualised then the 140% figure Harmoney shows would be trending down to 100% over one year, but it has shown in the RAR statistics at 140% from the day it appeared and now it is showing as 140% 440 days after the first investment. All Harmoney need to do is look at the core data and they will see the problem, if they have the mathematical background to do so.

All of the negative positions on the RAR graphs will be incorrectly calculated.

[Cool Bear]

Good morning. I have spent the past day reading the last 70 pages of this thread. Common themes are concerns over the fees charged by Harmoney and the things investors would like to be added to available options. From time to time there are grizzles and sometimes Harmoney people have suggested those be taken offline for resolution. I've been with Harmoney since January 2015 and have attached a screendump of my current position. I have 111 loans currently invested and as you will see my total arrears at present is $76 with no charge offs so far. I cherry pick my investments based on 40 years lending experience.

The reason I am writing on this forum is because I am displeased with the responses from Harmoney when I raise issues with them. To date these issues have related to platform failures (from my perspective). I do not accept that it is appropriate for a professional tech platform to have timing differences so that investors see conflicting information on different parts of the platform - when I am told my total arrears are $76 I expect to be able to see the composition of that total in individual loans but on occasions there has been a difference that has lasted for days, not minutes or hours. I do not expect to have funds withdrawn from my account for an investment which has been confirmed but cancelled and to have that money missing for over 10 days. I do expect that when I raise such issues and receive commitments to respond with answers, that I will receive such responses.

Such matters make me wonder how I will feel when I am informed of my first write off. Will I feel comfortable with Harmoney's recovery process? How will I know that reasonable recovery action has occurred? Is the recovery process actually clearly understood by investors?

Frankly, while I understand the risk / reward scenario very well, the part of the risk I don't understand is how Harmony considers that its platform is professional and competent when it produces what is clearly false information from time to time (just look at some of the stated incomes on loans), appears not to have adequate checks in place (people being offered loans when not all parts of the process have been completed - per comments earlier in this thread and my own experience). But, while I can filter out such loans based on experience many investors obviously aren't doing so and those with automatic investment mechanisms (which include the major players such as Heartland) have no hope of doing so. It is all very well for Harmoney to talk about expected results net of defaults but when defaults are produced because of a lack of thorough checks of basic information then Harmoney itself is at risk of legal action. Any business running a $300million loan portfolio is expected to be professional and competent. In my mind Harmoney doesn't meet those criteria.

So, how many agree? Should there be a clear process for debt recovery (as that really is the business end of the risk)? Can investors be certain that recovery action meets industry standards? Are investors at risk as has been suggested earlier in this forum, of a blasé attitude to recovery because the net of default return is well above alternative options?

8431

Hi BJ1 and Humvee,

Like the two of you, I have a significant amount invested in Harmoney. My writeoffs are at least twice Humvee's in value (but less in numbers? now over 60). My RAR at 20 Oct is just about 14%. I am comfortable with the performance so far but of course, I am always trying to improve it.

My opinion of Harmoney is that their product is a good one and they comes up with great improvements every now and then. But their communication of it to the Lenders is atrocious (and I am being kind here). An example is the Payment Protect. It seems to be good for Lenders but they muddle up the presentation at the beginning. It was so confusing that hardly anyone in this forum understand it. They finally comes up with clearer examples after the hue and cry in this forum and I am sure many emails and phone calls from investors like us with a bit of money in it. Some of the personnel there do not seem to fully understand their products and the way the website or reports work.

So, my conclusion is that generally the product is good, so is the website, reports etc. But really poor communication and understanding of it by the people that are charged with communication with us retail investors.

[BJ1]

Cool Bear, I think your conclusion is fair. I do add that I also think the people are inexpert which is why they can't explain things well. Also the profitability problem limits development in the areas where the problems persist. None of that is preventing my continuing to increase my cash input month by month. I intend to create another portfolio for autolend investing and will be asking Harmoney to increase the maximum from 4 notes to at least 10. After all, it is up to individuals to manage their risk and we shouldn't forget that in the first year Harmoney warned of excess risk only when an intended investment exceeded 10% of a loan - which was a meaningless measure anyway. Anyone with a balanced portfolio of $50,000 or so should be quite comfortable with individual exposures up to $250. I wonder if Monica or Will will read this.

[nztyke]

Cool Bear, I think your conclusion is fair. I do add that I also think the people are inexpert which is why they can't explain things well. Also the profitability problem limits development in the areas where the problems persist. None of that is preventing my continuing to increase my cash input month by month. I intend to create another portfolio for autolend investing and will be asking Harmoney to increase the maximum from 4 notes to at least 10. After all, it is up to individuals to manage their risk and we shouldn't forget that in the first year Harmoney warned of excess risk only when an intended investment exceeded 10% of a loan - which was a meaningless measure anyway. Anyone with a balanced portfolio of $50,000 or so should be quite comfortable with individual exposures up to $250. I wonder if Monica or Will will read this.Yes I agree, a more more comprehensive filter would suit me; I prefer as a rule of thumb to invest $300 in A, $200 in B and $100 in C. I would also like the ability t o invest auto loans in both 60 and 36 month terms instead of one or the other.

[RMJH]

Cool Bear, I think your conclusion is fair. I do add that I also think the people are inexpert which is why they can't explain things well. Also the profitability problem limits development in the areas where the problems persist. None of that is preventing my continuing to increase my cash input month by month. I intend to create another portfolio for autolend investing and will be asking Harmoney to increase the maximum from 4 notes to at least 10. After all, it is up to individuals to manage their risk and we shouldn't forget that in the first year Harmoney warned of excess risk only when an intended investment exceeded 10% of a loan - which was a meaningless measure anyway. Anyone with a balanced portfolio of $50,000 or so should be quite comfortable with individual exposures up to $250. I wonder if Monica or Will will read this.
200 loans spread over five grades is pretty low imo. I would want that in each grade, at least, with more in the riskier grades. BTW RAR means realised annual return so quite possible to get over 100% loss. I think you miss the point that it is the whole data set that paints the picture , not just the odd (explicable) outlier.

[Finite]

I think the whole RAR thing is very misleading!

Unless you are a professional investor who can claim write offs as a deductible expense then you are paying tax on a much higher value than your "profit"
In this situation ones return is lower than the calculated RAR.

The IRD needs to get a kick up the ass and hurry up changing the way it views such an investment where there are expected losses of capital and then Harmoney could allow for it in their tax withholding.

[BJ1]

I agree that it is very tricky for the casual lender and it would be good if IRD changed things so that all P2P investors (actually lenders) can claim deductions for loan write offs and not just those for whom the financial arrangement rules apply. After all this is lending as a business for more than just the Heartland type participants.

[Art]

In my view RAR is quite a conservative calculation of return because it does not include any accrued interest. I prefer to calculate my return at the end of each month by dividing the gross interest less fees and write-offs (if any) divided by the balance of investments at the end of the prior month. That way any further capital introduced during the month does not dilute the returns. Still not perfect though because of the delay between Harmoney receiving payments and clearance/posting to our accounts.

As far as the deductibility of charged off amounts is concerned, I believe that on balance my Harmoney investing constitutes a business and therefore I will be claiming charged off amounts (which to date have fortunately been minimal anyway). This was a good article, perhaps previously linked to here http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/80524/deloittes-troy-andrews-argues-ird-needs-modernise-its-framework-p2p-lending

[whitt]

Are payment protect loans worth the hassle? Does anybody lend on loans with this payment protect (shield) or have some actual data?

Harmoney faq suggests the investor returns will be approximately 1% higher if you lend to these loans.

[Art]

Yes I have, I will let you know whether it was worth it in 5 years time! So far I have 139 of these loans, fees received (capitalised) $204.08, rebates (lender) $4.27, no amounts of principal waived (yet!), makes net $199.81. Also am receiving interest on the $199.81 but I have not tried to calculate how much that would be.

I intend to limit payment protect to 10% of my portfolio until I have seen a decent length of history to judge the performance.

[whitt]

Auto lend option for payment protect only has on or off button.
I currently have it turned off as am unsure if I turn it on if only that loan type shows. I would prefer to not filter and choose all loans as payment protect

[Art]

Auto lend option for payment protect only has on or off button.
I currently have it turned off as am unsure if I turn it on if only that loan type shows. I would prefer to not filter and choose all loans as payment protect

When you select yes some will be with payment protect and some will be without. I agree, there should be three options, all with, all without, or with & without.

[whitt]

When you select yes some will be with payment protect and some will be without. I agree, there should be three options, all with, all without, or with & without.
I might turn the payment protect option on in my auto lend then monitor the results. I dont want all my loans this type so will need to carefully watch them to ensure i don't get too many.

Payment protect is unproven and could result in 3 scenarios for default rates which is why I want to limit quantity until more actual data comes:
Option 1- Responsible borrowers sign up for payment protect. As they are more responsible the defaults are lower
Option 2- Higher risk borrowers sign up for payment protect. They can wrongly get complacent thinking they are protected for payments. It only covers things like disability or redundancy not bad debt. Defaults increase
Option 3- It makes no difference on defaults. The good and bad borrowers average out and default is unchanged.

[Saamee]

Talked with Harmoney this arvo about IT issues getting Withdrawals made.

Seems like they already know about the issue.

Random peoples accounts at random times.

Both my Wife's and my accounts will not allow any Withdrawals of any amount today.

Requested a Manual Withdrawal on both accounts.

[Saamee]

Talked with Harmoney this arvo about IT issues getting Withdrawals made.

Seems like they already know about the issue.

Random peoples accounts at random times.

Update >>> Harmoney went thru to the IT Dept. and they fixed the Issues ( on both accounts )

Both my Wife's and my accounts will not allow any Withdrawals of any amount today.


Requested a Manual Withdrawal on both accounts.


Apparentley the Issues is not expected to be seen again once fixed by IT....

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

in order to calculate your own RAR why not use the xirr function ? Negatives are inputs into harmoney, positives are withdraws or what you have in harmoney cash + pricinple invested.

Xirr sounds like it apportions variable timed inputs and outputs into harmoney.

[humvee]

in order to calculate your own RAR why not use the xirr function ? Negatives are inputs into harmoney, positives are withdraws or what you have in harmoney cash + pricinple invested.

Xirr sounds like it apportions variable timed inputs and outputs into harmoney.

I use the xirr function to calculate mine. The answer does not exactly match Harmoneys numbers but its fairly close

[Saamee]

Apparentley the Issues is not expected to be seen again once fixed by IT....

The IT issues were not expected to reoccur...... BUT THEY HAVE!!! Yesterday and today...

[Art]

Auto invest now allows you to add a repayment to income maximum ratio - an excellent enhancement in my view.

[Darchie]

Has anyone out there got a handle on these payment protect loans? Is the following normal?

Have a loan that repaid, was taken out 12 oct .. repaid 9 nov ..(not quite a month) ...
put in $25.00 .. principal repaid to me is $24.53 ... interest paid at .32
So looks like HM and IRD do just fine...

But if had a few thousand loans like this - there'd be a lot of cut and burn ...
So i ask ... is there any advantage at all to the lender?
i thought some of the protect fee was added onto the principal amount at the outset of the loan, meaning a higher principal repay amount owed, not a lower amount!

[Investor]

Has anyone out there got a handle on these payment protect loans? Is the following normal?

Have a loan that repaid, was taken out 12 oct .. repaid 9 nov ..(not quite a month) ...
put in $25.00 .. principal repaid to me is $24.53 ... interest paid at .32
So looks like HM and IRD do just fine...

But if had a few thousand loans like this - there'd be a lot of cut and burn ...
So i ask ... is there any advantage at all to the lender?
i thought some of the protect fee was added onto the principal amount at the outset of the loan, meaning a higher principal repay amount owed, not a lower amount!

You're better off seeking returns through investing in loans one grade higher e.g. A1 to A2 rather than investing in payment protect. You may acquire increased risk but payment protect carries its own risks as you've seen.

[Saamee]

Artilce on the latest events on the P2P Market over in the USA...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-15/surge-online-loan-defaults-sends-shockwaves-through-industry

[Pipi]

Do many of you check your service fee percentage when you invest in a loan? Well you should. My account has now gone over the $9,999 mark which is needed for the service fee to drop to 17.5%, but it still shows as 20%. Have emailed them, so am waiting for the reply as to why.

[Saamee]

Harmoney must be having some kind of Pre-Xmas push for Loan Upgrades etc....

Yesterday and today having SO many Loans repaid.

Has any one else noticed this too?

[Investor]

Do many of you check your service fee percentage when you invest in a loan? Well you should. My account has now gone over the $9,999 mark which is needed for the service fee to drop to 17.5%, but it still shows as 20%. Have emailed them, so am waiting for the reply as to why.

As they have clearly stated if you go over a fee breakpoint it won't change until the following day

[Darchie]

Harmoney must be having some kind of Pre-Xmas push for Loan Upgrades etc....

Yesterday and today having SO many Loans repaid.

Has any one else noticed this too?

This surge of repaid loans has been going for quite awhile. .. just look at how many of the loans to invest in... vast majority are re-writes...
But i say what about the surge in write-offs that's been romping along in last 8days ... I'm very close now to 2k written-off by HM. JUst like that link to article you posted....

[Darchie]

Should have added also ... finding it really really hard to grow the 'active' loan number tally.

[Saamee]

This surge of repaid loans has been going for quite awhile. .. just look at how many of the loans to invest in... vast majority are re-writes...
But i say what about the surge in write-offs that's been romping along in last 8days ... I'm very close now to 2k written-off by HM. JUst like that link to article you posted....

Oh! I almost did add "No recent writes off's" - did not wish to jink my investing luck!

[Saamee]

But i say what about the surge in write-offs that's been romping along in last 8days ... I'm very close now to 2k written-off by HM. Just like that link to article you posted....

Darchie, What is your % of Capital Written off loans to Total invested???

[Darchie]

Darchie, What is your % of Capital Written off loans to Total invested???


Loan investments $106,075.00.
Charged-off principal 1,951.80.
Have 490 loans paid off ... and 117 in arrears...
with dashboard showing arrears as $229.40 but it's hardly a figure that can be relied upon.
Have 1636 active loans
All loans 2179
Have certainly changed where i take notes.
Am thinking it could well be far too easy for people that have no good intensions of repaying loans, to obtain money through harmoney . ..
But there's still a lot in this mix that are plugging along nicely with regular payments.

[DonB]

Artilce on the latest events on the P2P Market over in the USA...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-15/surge-online-loan-defaults-sends-shockwaves-through-industry

Hiall,

Thanks for sharing this article.

I've been reading these P2P boards for a while but not yet taken the plunge. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and appreciated generous sharing of information.

It seems to be working for people and for us the only drawback was that money was committed to it for 3-5 years (except for rewrites).

It seems to me that the biggest threat is the change in economic circumstances (as referred ot in the article above) such that people are no longer able to repay their loans. Inability to withdraw money quickly means that if this happens then lenders are stuck. If suppose that is the risk/reward balance.

Please correct me if I am wrong as I am new to this investing game (I'm reading heaps and very keen to learn).

I'd be interested in others thoughts on the article and its relevance to NZ P2P and Harmoney in particular.

Don

[Saamee]

Hiall,

Thanks for sharing this article.

I've been reading these P2P boards for a while but not yet taken the plunge. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and appreciated generous sharing of information.

It seems to be working for people and for us the only drawback was that money was committed to it for 3-5 years (except for rewrites).

It seems to me that the biggest threat is the change in economic circumstances (as referred ot in the article above) such that people are no longer able to repay their loans. Inability to withdraw money quickly means that if this happens then lenders are stuck. If suppose that is the risk/reward balance.

Please correct me if I am wrong as I am new to this investing game (I'm reading heaps and very keen to learn).

I'd be interested in others thoughts on the article and its relevance to NZ P2P and Harmoney in particular.

Don

Welcome DonB,

Yes you are sort of pretty much spot on.

Remember many people just Repay their loans early and at Harmoney ( from my experience ) you can expect approx 50% of your capital back within 6 months.

Just like a Bank Term Deposit - Only lock your money away, if you are happy with a 3 or 5 year term! That bit is not rocket science :)

The advantage with the other Two main P2P lenders in NZ ( Lending Crowd & Squirrel ) is that they both do offer some form of Security on their loans.

It's worth taking a look at them.

Harmoney offers NO security.

Rgds Saamee

[Investor]

Hiall,

Thanks for sharing this article.

I've been reading these P2P boards for a while but not yet taken the plunge. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and appreciated generous sharing of information.

It seems to be working for people and for us the only drawback was that money was committed to it for 3-5 years (except for rewrites).

It seems to me that the biggest threat is the change in economic circumstances (as referred ot in the article above) such that people are no longer able to repay their loans. Inability to withdraw money quickly means that if this happens then lenders are stuck. If suppose that is the risk/reward balance.

Please correct me if I am wrong as I am new to this investing game (I'm reading heaps and very keen to learn).

I'd be interested in others thoughts on the article and its relevance to NZ P2P and Harmoney in particular.

Don

In my opinion the main take-home from the article is to assume that defaults could possibly be more likely than Harmoney predicts. I prefer to keep a large portion of my loans in the A and B borrower grades as I don't particularly enjoy lending money at exorbitant rates to people who are possibly out of their depth.

Interesting information on how lending club investors did during the last recession here: http://www.lendingmemo.com/p2p-lending-recession-performance/

8462
An image from this article.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

70k invested drips and draps over the time.
@1 note per loan usually.


4000k charged off (172 loans).

C4 1
C2 1
A5 1
B3 1
B1 2
B4 2
D3 3
C3 3
D2 4
C1 5
F4 5
C5 7
D4 7
E3 7
E1 8
D5 8
F3 10
E2 11
D1 12
F1 13
F2 13
E5 14
E4 15
F5 19



17k gross interest since harmony started..

14% rar according to harmony.
11% xirr after tax (but not taking into account harmony fee which should be able to get tax relief ?)


Active 3355 loans out of 5271 loans


Arrears 252
1-30 103
31-60 52
61-90 36
91-120 25
121-180 34
180+ 2


Cheers

[whitt]

70k invested drips and draps over the time.
@1 note per loan usually.


4000k charged off (172 loans).

C4 1
C2 1
A5 1
B3 1
B1 2
B4 2
D3 3
C3 3
D2 4
C1 5
F4 5
C5 7
D4 7
E3 7
E1 8
D5 8
F3 10
E2 11
D1 12
F1 13
F2 13
E5 14
E4 15
F5 19



17k gross interest since harmony started..

14% rar according to harmony.
11% xirr after tax (but not taking into account harmony fee which should be able to get tax relief ?)


Active 3355 loans out of 5271 loans


Arrears 252
1-30 103
31-60 52
61-90 36
91-120 25
121-180 34
180+ 2


Cheers
Thanks
i get a similar 14% plus rar although I don't invest in D,E or F loans.

[whitt]

Loan investments $106,075.00.
Charged-off principal 1,951.80.
Have 490 loans paid off ... and 117 in arrears...
with dashboard showing arrears as $229.40 but it's hardly a figure that can be relied upon.
Have 1636 active loans
All loans 2179
Have certainly changed where i take notes.
Am thinking it could well be far too easy for people that have no good intensions of repaying loans, to obtain money through harmoney . ..
But there's still a lot in this mix that are plugging along nicely with regular payments.

Darchie
Thats about a 1.8% default rate based on your charge offs. WHat loan grades do you typically invest in as that is high compared to the predicted figures on Harmoney. Unless of course your portfolio is mostly higher risk grades.

[whitt]

In my opinion the main take-home from the article is to assume that defaults could possibly be more likely than Harmoney predicts. I prefer to keep a large portion of my loans in the A and B borrower grades as I don't particularly enjoy lending money at exorbitant rates to people who are possibly out of their depth.

Interesting information on how lending club investors did during the last recession here: http://www.lendingmemo.com/p2p-lending-recession-performance/

8462
An image from this article.
Thanks
That article is gold
My favourite take from it all is this

"What we see is this: during a healthy economic environment the best performing grades are the alphabet in reverse — EDCBA. But when unemployment rises, the grades reverse to read ABCDE. During recessions, the riskier loan grades earn the worst return. During healthier economic times, the riskier loan grades earn the greatest return."

[Darchie]

Darchie
Thats about a 1.8% default rate based on your charge offs. WHat loan grades do you typically invest in as that is high compared to the predicted figures on Harmoney. Unless of course your portfolio is mostly higher risk grades.

tarted investing end sept 2015 ... took a reasonably even spread A through to F ... went through a phase where i was placing 4 or so notes and some A loans up to 20 notes into only a few ... but of coarse they were the ones that continually re-wrote! That didn't work outt well at all! So reverted to the more safer spread of basically one note per loan, and avoided A loans because of the rewrites.... but came the change in fee structure i totally changed investing rules again ... so now mainly B loans with lots of A and pick through and take some C loans ... absolutely no D or E, but do however select one very tight criteria of an F loan but might even drop that as well. So on the reports today i have 2185 total loans made up as:
A - 447
B - 679
C - 429
D - 291
E - 191
F - 148

On dashboard my RAR shows as 14.36%
& gross int received is $10,315.26

[whitt]

I too dropped D,E,F grades several months back.
Looking at my arrears those grades make up 80% of my arrears even though they only represent 12% of my portfolio spread.
The risk is too big which is why I dropped them.

[Investor]

Harmoney has recently added the feature of loan repayment vs income % to the filters in case you guys are unaware :)

[whitt]

Harmoney has recently added the feature of loan repayment vs income % to the filters in case you guys are unaware :)
Awesome they must read these forums.. Thats a great new filter option

[whitt]

Has any body else noticed investor loans have dried up in last few days?
I would have assumed as xmas is near that loan volumes could increase. However lately there has been very few.

[Investor]

Has any body else noticed investor loans have dried up in last few days?
I would have assumed as xmas is near that loan volumes could increase. However lately there has been very few.

I have noticed the same :( I'm sure Christmas will bring momentum.

[RGR367]

There's really no truth in marketing! Harmoney fined $292k for misleading marketing campaign
http://comcom.govt.nz/the-commission/media-centre/media-releases/detail/2016/harmoney-fined-292k-for-misleading-marketing-campaign

[Bjauck]

There's really no truth in marketing! Harmoney fined $292k for misleading marketing campaign
http://comcom.govt.nz/the-commission/media-centre/media-releases/detail/2016/harmoney-fined-292k-for-misleading-marketing-campaign

They had an over-aggressive marketing campaign aimed at potential borrowers.

Although different circumstances, many lenders may have been encouraged to invest through Harmoney after the interest rates increased, with the service charges at the old lower rate, only to face the steep lender fee charge increase some months later.

[winner69]

Has any body else noticed investor loans have dried up in last few days?
I would have assumed as xmas is near that loan volumes could increase. However lately there has been very few.

Maybe all being mopped up by the big boys before you mere mortals get the chance to have a look

[Cool Bear]

I have posted a few times before that Harmoney estimated default rates are way too low and the actual rates may be 50 to 100% higher. From my first 500 loans invested in the middle of 2015, the result so far, based purely on number of loans, are:

current 249, 49.8%
paid off 220, 44.0%
defaults 31, 6.2%

My spreadsheet works out the simple average default rate estimated by Harmoney for those 500 loans to be just 3.06%. Already with still half of the loan still ongoing, the actual is more than twice that. Still 3 and a half years to go for all loans to be fully paid off, so the final figure will be probably between 8 to 10% assuming that Harmoney's blurb "that defaults are usually in the first 18 months" is correct.

Note: This post is not to warn investors off Harmoney. The net returns are still very good (can be better than the other p2ps) but do be aware that estimates are just estimates.

[nztyke]

I have posted a few times before that Harmoney estimated default rates are way too low and the actual rates may be 50 to 100% higher. From my first 500 loans invested in the middle of 2015, the result so far, based purely on number of loans, are:

current 249, 49.8%
paid off 220, 44.0%
defaults 31, 6.2%

My spreadsheet works out the simple average default rate estimated by Harmoney for those 500 loans to be just 3.06%. Already with still half of the loan still ongoing, the actual is more than twice that. Still 3 and a half years to go for all loans to be fully paid off, so the final figure will be probably between 8 to 10% assuming that Harmoney's blurb "that defaults are usually in the first 18 months" is correct.

Note: This post is not to warn investors off Harmoney. The net returns are still very good (can be better than the other p2ps) but do be aware that estimates are just estimates.

As I understand it the estimated default rates are per annum and not over the life of the loan. Does your calculation take that into account?

Just checked the Harmoney website it shows annual default rates
A 0.17%
B 0.53%
C 1.20%
D 2.00%
E 4.28%
F 10.62%

[whitt]

I have posted a few times before that Harmoney estimated default rates are way too low and the actual rates may be 50 to 100% higher. From my first 500 loans invested in the middle of 2015, the result so far, based purely on number of loans, are:
.
CoolBear
Did you finds the estimate default rates from them are wrong evenly across all grades or more towards certain grades?

[Investor]

Of course their default rates won't be 100% accurate. Comparing your results which include your own selection bias to platform figures doesn't provide very decision useful information in my opinion. Given there are other factors like the possibility of a recession at some stage this is just a reminder to not take a 'redline' approach to investing in loan grades on Harmoney.

[Cool Bear]

As I understand it the estimated default rates are per annum and not over the life of the loan. Does your calculation take that into account?

Just checked the Harmoney website it shows annual default rates
A 0.17%
B 0.53%
C 1.20%
D 2.00%
E 4.28%
F 10.62%
You are right. If I take into acccount that it is annual, then the difference is not as great. However, I reckon Harmoney's will still be understated.

To negate the annual thing, my calculation is thus as follows: For my entire 3000+ loans, the gross (weighted average) interest is 21.21%. My weighted average default rate (based on Harmoney) is 2.48% So, expected default is 11.69% of gross interest. At the moment, my actual default is 19.6% of gross interest. And that is not taking into account that Harmoney only consider a loan as default only after so many (three?) months of non payment.

[Cool Bear]

Of course their default rates won't be 100% accurate. Comparing your results which include your own selection bias to platform figures doesn't provide very decision useful information in my opinion. Given there are other factors like the possibility of a recession at some stage this is just a reminder to not take a 'redline' approach to investing in loan grades on Harmoney.
Yes, that "not taking a redline approach" is precisely my point to other investors.

[Beagle]

There's really no truth in marketing! Harmoney fined $292k for misleading marketing campaign
http://comcom.govt.nz/the-commission/media-centre/media-releases/detail/2016/harmoney-fined-292k-for-misleading-marketing-campaign

There's creative marketing and then there's misrepresentation. The campaign's they ran definitely fell into the latter category. Good on the Commerce commission taking them to task.

[IntheRearWithTheGear]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b1eyp28qw3lxy4w/P2P.zip?dl=0
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/b1eyp28qw3lxy4w/P2P.zip?dl=0)

requires windows dot net framework.

A feeble attempt at creating a p2p loan simulator which models loans, loan defaults and loan repayments into future.

Its a windows console program so you will have to know something about computers to even get it running.

No support, run at your own risk, the results will not be correct but it maybe in the ball park. Does not model "payment protect". Written after the new loan fee schedule came into effect (you can change that amount in the settings file - 0.15, -- Platform Fee)

You edit the text file tablesettings.txt down the bottom of the file you will notice a settings section which is where you load your portfolo details.




Download and put in a folder on its own.

You edit the text file tablesettings.txt near the bottom of the file you will notice a settings section which is where you load your portfolio details.
You then run the runsim.bat for a bit.

It simulates the loans with defaults etc so one version of a possible future. It keeps adding these futures to the output.csv .

The theory being if you run it thousands of times you will get a range of outcomes - a poor mans monte carlo simulator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method

It will be completely wrong and has nothing to do with harmoney and use entirely your risk - run it in a virtual pc if your scared.


For example you will see a line which looks like this

a1,60,100,


you could change it to
a1,60,50,b1,36,100
Which means
50 a1 loans for 60 months and 100 b1 loans of 36 months.

another example.

a1,60,50,b1,36,100,f1,60,1000

the loan types field is for when the system needs to take a new loan it selects randomly a loan from this field so you can create investment ideas
currently set for a1,60 month duration loans

could be
f1,60,f1,36,b1,60,c5,36 etc


loan rates are kepted in fixdata.txt file.

All yours, no returns.


Cheers

Uses excel interest rate which is not the same as their fancy interest rate over real time spans.

[Darchie]

Loans are very sparce!
May be they've run out of subjects willing to get further into debt with re-writing!

[Saamee]

Loans are very sparce!
May be they've run out of subjects willing to get further into debt with re-writing!

Same over at Squirrel ( just one loan at LC )

[alistar_mid]

Loans are very sparce!
May be they've run out of subjects willing to get further into debt with re-writing!

?

I have picked up 25 loans today (5th dec) via my auto lend
Probably pick up more before the days out.

[Whippeedo]

Yeah **** loads of loans this morning. Good to see

[mjplost]

Had to do a double take this morning, I thought it would increase due to xmas spending.

8494

[Whippeedo]

Tried call Harmoneys investor line twice today. Stayed on hold for about 20 both times. No call back yet over 2 hours ago.

The make it even more annoying...every minute an automated American sounding lady comes on to say press 1 to for a call back or 2 to stay on the line....every minute it keeps offering you the same option.

Please fix this annouying announcement . Every 5 minutes is quite enough IMO

[Saamee]

Had to do a double take this morning, I thought it would increase due to xmas spending.

8494

Did you also check to see if your Write Offs had gone up?

Same as you yesterday, I saw Arrears had gone way down... but then found another write off :(

[mjplost]

Did you also check to see if your Write Offs had gone up?

Same as you yesterday, I saw Arrears had gone way down... but then found another write off :(

Write offs remained the same, I had one that was 31-60 days overdue which I thought was going the write off route but they are now current.

[BJ1]

I've noticed a lot of discussion about arrears and write offs. If investors are taking a full spread of loans across all grades then they are going to experience high volumes of both. Is anyone else wondering why we are not seeing updated information from Harmoney about actual experience to date - actual default rates per grade versus expected default rates? Would it also be of help to understand why defaults occur if Harmoney posted brief "diary notes" on default loans recording the borrower circumstances? Is it possible that doesn't happen because the "collection" process isn't that great? Or am I just paranoid?

[Bjauck]

I've noticed a lot of discussion about arrears and write offs. If investors are taking a full spread of loans across all grades then they are going to experience high volumes of both. Is anyone else wondering why we are not seeing updated information from Harmoney about actual experience to date - actual default rates per grade versus expected default rates? Would it also be of help to understand why defaults occur if Harmoney posted brief "diary notes" on default loans recording the borrower circumstances? Is it possible that doesn't happen because the "collection" process isn't that great? Or am I just paranoid? They do provide some platform stats - latest update is from November.
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/marketplace-statistics

[JohnMac]

It is such a pleasure when I log into both Lending Crowd and Squirrel to find there are no write-offs and seldom any arrears either. When I log into Harmony the first thing I look at is the Write-offs to see how much it has grown.

[777]

It is such a pleasure when I log into both Lending Crowd and Squirrel to find there are no write-offs and seldom any arrears either. When I log into Harmony the first thing I look at is the Write-offs to see how much it has grown.

But which platform gives you the best overall return?

[Investor]

It is such a pleasure when I log into both Lending Crowd and Squirrel to find there are no write-offs and seldom any arrears either. When I log into Harmony the first thing I look at is the Write-offs to see how much it has grown.

You've probably invested heavily in D, E, F and don't understand what variables to consider when investing in loans if this is your experience.

[Saamee]

It is such a pleasure when I log into both Lending Crowd and Squirrel to find there are no write-offs and seldom any arrears either. When I log into Harmony the first thing I look at is the Write-offs to see how much it has grown.

Squirrel have had write offs.... but as they operate a 'Slush Fund' we as Investors do not lose out...... yet!

8498

You can always check for the up to date details here :> https://www.squirrelmoney.co.nz/looking-after-your-money/


Note: Thanks to KELVIN for the web link which he provided months ago.

[JohnMac]

You've probably invested heavily in D, E, F and don't understand what variables to consider when investing in loans if this is your experience.

I have been an investor with Harmony almost from the beginning. Had +200K invested at one stage but now down to $93K. Most of my loans are A 45%, B 30% and C 15% the remainder D with some E and F. Charged off principle $634 and RAR 12.87% - I know exactly what I am doing and still think that of the three Harmoney is still the one with the most risk. Lending crowd RAR 13.11% and Squirrel 8.95%. My gut feel is that when times get tough and sooner or later they will, it be my Harmoney loans that will be the highest risk of defaulting.

[Darchie]

I have been an investor with Harmony almost from the beginning. Had +200K invested at one stage but now down to $93K. Most of my loans are A 45%, B 30% and C 15% the remainder D with some E and F. Charged off principle $634 and RAR 12.87% - I know exactly what I am doing and still think that of the three Harmoney is still the one with the most risk. Lending crowd RAR 13.11% and Squirrel 8.95%. My gut feel is that when times get tough and sooner or later they will, it be my Harmoney loans that will be the highest risk of defaulting.

I agree with you JohnMac and think 'investor' posted in haste

[Bjauck]

I agree with you JohnMac and think 'investor' posted in hasteI agree too. However it does depend on the grade of note you invest in and the differing risks may be reflected in the gross interest offered. Taking into account the greater investor fees payable to Harmoney, I think you should start by comparing the Lending Crowd range of loans with the loans available from Harmoney in grades C4 (gross interest at 22.06%) and above.

[whitt]

The P2P stats out of the rest of world show some interesting data.
High risk grades get hit hard during a reccession and lower grades out perform during that time Whilst th eopposite is true during boom times.

In theory you could:

In the years prior to a recession when signs are the economy's might turn begin by investing in lower risk grades. That way if a recession does hit in say 2 years you havent got high risk 60 month grades still out there.

[Broke]

im running out of loans to invest in.. im at 800 loans and I have trouble re-investing it all back, i still stick to 25$ per loan.. Thinking of putting more money into the ones with payment protect. Wonder if its better than the ones without

[Investor]

im running out of loans to invest in.. im at 800 loans and I have trouble re-investing it all back, i still stick to 25$ per loan.. Thinking of putting more money into the ones with payment protect. Wonder if its better than the ones without

Payment protect adds the risk of Harmoney waiving repayments for the borrower and you not recieving these payments as a result. Overall it has been suggested you will get mildly better returns but it isn't really worth it generally speaking. Due to the lack of loans (that autolend will pick up for me) I'm considering it myself.

[alistar_mid]

I agree too. However it does depend on the grade of note you invest in and the differing risks may be reflected in the gross interest offered. Taking into account the greater investor fees payable to Harmoney, I think you should start by comparing the Lending Crowd range of loans with the loans available from Harmoney in grades C4 (gross interest at 22.06%) and above.


The P2P stats out of the rest of world show some interesting data.
High risk grades get hit hard during a reccession and lower grades out perform during that time Whilst th eopposite is true during boom times.

In theory you could:

In the years prior to a recession when signs are the economy's might turn begin by investing in lower risk grades. That way if a recession does hit in say 2 years you havent got high risk 60 month grades still out there.


I have got a pretty decent excel model, off the report data I can reconcile my RAR exactly, and forecast future RAR based on portfolio mix and long term platform stats.
I've run a sensitivity analysis on my portolfio mix, basically need defaults to increase by 500% to have RAR hit 0%. Based on a 10 / 25 / 22.5 / 20 / 17.5 / 5 % portfolio mix.

Obv move it towards more A / B and you have a greater resilience for a recession scenario, but it really requires default rates to skyrocket for RAR to be negative.