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777
21-12-2014, 09:18 PM
There was a thread for this but it went missing with temporary bannings.

I am interested in how any investors are going. Have you had many defaults yet?.

I have been investing for about 7 weeks now and so far all those that are due have paid up.

Entrep
22-12-2014, 07:29 AM
Sorry I know I should really look through the website, but what happens when someone defaults?

777
22-12-2014, 08:04 AM
Sorry I know I should really look through the website, but what happens when someone defaults?

https://www.harmoney.com/how-it-works/borrower-faq

Harvey Specter
27-12-2014, 03:56 PM
My experience matches Black Knat exactly.

Unfortunately my bank balance doesn't. Invested in over 100 loans but only 1 or 2 notes in each. Focusing on D and E 36 month loans.

From what I have read on overseas experience, the default rates are about right so you are rewarded for the extra risk. Whether Harmoney has got it right like lending club and prosper, only time will tell.

777
27-12-2014, 09:26 PM
Good to know a few of us around investing. I tend to stick to the 36 month ones and B's thru D's. Usually in 10 unit lots. Reasonably time consuming and you have to be watching a lot as many loans get filled quite quickly.

Interesting only two loans showing on market at present.

Will keep you posted on any failures when they occur.

Soolaimon
31-12-2014, 07:44 AM
At the moment I have 10 loans in arrears, suddenly up from one. Could be that people have over-spent for xmas etc. or maybe the banking system is out of wack with the harmony system during the holiday period???

777
31-12-2014, 08:06 AM
At the moment I have 10 loans in arrears, suddenly up from one. Could be that people have over-spent for xmas etc. or maybe the banking system is out of wack with the harmony system during the holiday period???

When you say "in arrears", have you been informed of that or are you calculating that yourself. Remember that there is at least 3 business days before you see the payment credited against your loan and with the public holidays effect, this will affect both the borrowers payments being debited against their account and therefore the receipt by Harmoney. Then the 3 days to show up for you.

Soolaimon
31-12-2014, 05:01 PM
Re the arrears, yes I have been informed by harmony that there are 10 loans in arrears totaling $43. I have checked through all other loans due about the same time ie. 23-24th Dec and one or two are paid up but the 10 are not. However I am pretty sure it is due to the 3 day thing at this time of the year. We will know more on the 3rd of Jan I guess.

Harvey Specter
01-01-2015, 09:29 AM
Re arrears, I always have them. Sometimes it is just the first pay,ent not being set up properly from what I can tell. They always seem to get paid (with very little in penalties).

Having said that, I am starting to get concerned with the quality of some of the data. It sometimes fluctuates throughout the day in a way that can't be reconciled - outstanding reduces even though no payment received.

777
01-01-2015, 04:10 PM
Two E1's there today. Each with different interest rates. One has a lower rate than the D4 showing.

LAI-00003583 E1
68.4% 5,300.00 22.94% 4.4%

LAI-00008726 E1
12.26% 5,300.00 24.66% 2.78%

LAI-00008731 D4
5.8% 10,350.00 22.96% 2.21%

Soolaimon
03-01-2015, 07:21 AM
21 loans now in arrears totaling $97. More than 20% of my notes. I still think (and hope) it is the holiday banking dates. Anyone else in the same boat???

777
07-01-2015, 11:26 AM
No arrears now. Thin on the loan offerings at present.

I have a number of loans that are repaying more than once monthly.

Harvey Specter
07-01-2015, 09:38 PM
21 loans now in arrears totaling $97. More than 20% of my notes. I still think (and hope) it is the holiday banking dates. Anyone else in the same boat???mine went high over New Years (not as high as yours). Went down quickly - some of that may be late payment fees which makes it look high. It will sort itself out once they get back to work.

Soolaimon
09-01-2015, 07:55 AM
mine went high over New Years (not as high as yours). Went down quickly - some of that may be late payment fees which makes it look high. It will sort itself out once they get back to work.

My $97 of arrears now down to $11 but no increase to late payments which have stayed at 0.44 cents. I find it difficult to reconcile total value at any one time due to uncleared amounts. I have started investing again after holding off for a month to see how things were going. I am still not sure if I will increase my rate of investment or not at this stage but all in all it does look promising.

KiwiGekko
10-01-2015, 07:58 AM
I met someone involved with Harmoney who was explaining it to me a few months back and meant to have a play then but I completely forgot about this site. So thanks for posting here 777 and reminding me. I have put 1k into my account this week so lets see how it goes - I always assume the worst in these sorts of things, that way I can be pleasantly surprised. :-)

iceman
10-01-2015, 11:49 AM
I wanted to set up an account but can not get past the disclosure agreement. Repeatedly get a message telling me to confirm at the bottom of the page that I've read it but there is no OK button at the bottom of the page. Have had 2 other people look at it for me in case I was missing something but same result. Any idea anyone ?

Halebop
10-01-2015, 11:55 AM
I wanted to set up an account but can not get past the disclosure agreement. Repeatedly get a message telling me to confirm at the bottom of the page that I've read it but there is no OK button at the bottom of the page. Have had 2 other people look at it for me in case I was missing something but same result. Any idea anyone ?

Tried opening the disclosure statement?

iceman
10-01-2015, 12:05 PM
Tried opening the disclosure statement?

Haha. Even read every word but doesn't solve my issue

777
11-01-2015, 09:32 AM
Do any of you have unfilled orders that now do not appear on the Marketplace page?


It appears loan did not go ahead. No notification. You just need to work it out yourself.

Zaphod
11-01-2015, 11:51 AM
Haha. Even read every word but doesn't solve my issue

Try using a different browser (e.g. Firefox, Chrome, etc.) That behaviour could be the result of some security settings on your current browser.

iceman
11-01-2015, 04:34 PM
Thanks Zaphod. I did try using both Firefox and IE but still have the same issue. I think I will just buy a few more HNZ, a lot easier :)


Try using a different browser (e.g. Firefox, Chrome, etc.) That behaviour could be the result of some security settings on your current browser.

777
12-01-2015, 03:17 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/64863762/trade-me-buys-15-pc-stake-in-harmoney

Soolaimon
12-01-2015, 04:26 PM
Do any of you have unfilled orders that now do not appear on the Marketplace page?


It appears loan did not go ahead. No notification. You just need to work it out yourself.

Yes, I had a couple of those back in Sept/Oct. No notification then also. I called about it and was told that the loans were unfilled. Since then all I have invested in have been filled. Also, I have had two loans fully re-paid, one almost at issue time, the other within one month. Got a $2 return from that one!!

Entrep
13-01-2015, 10:10 PM
How many loans are up all the platform at once? Could you spread for example $50K across a decent number of loans to minimise the default risk/exposure?

Harvey Specter
14-01-2015, 09:39 PM
How many loans are up all the platform at once? Could you spread for example $50K across a decent number of loans to minimise the default risk/exposure?no

Currently 22 loans (only 2 meet my criteria). Over the course of a few weeks you could (depend on what your criteria are). Say 100 loans at $500 max is descent spread. I would do it slower though as $500 per loan is a lot.

There are others here that have invested that much so they may let you know how long it took, and the max they put into each.

Halebop
14-01-2015, 10:03 PM
How many loans are up all the platform at once? Could you spread for example $50K across a decent number of loans to minimise the default risk/exposure?

Not many at any moment in time but there is fairly regular movement in terms of completing financing of individual loans and new offers arriving. If you believe the numbers they stated in various media blurbs it implies they have completed 1,400+ loans since start up ($20m in loans, $14,000 average).

If you wanted to invest $50,000 it might take a while depending upon your risk tolerance. I note Harmoney recommend you purchase no more than 10% of a loan but would suggest unless you are investing millions this would represent an unwise degree of concentration risk for sums like $50,000. Think wiser to take your time and buy into hundreds to allow more room for the pricing vs default statistics to work as designed.

I've been buying into many loans at small values on behalf of my partner to achieve wide diversification since there is no control or visibility of the underwriting/risk assessment process. Based upon desired criteria have over 6 weeks bought into 70 or so loans so far. We intend to continue purchases at the same sort of pace for 3 years assuming the numbers and Harmoney (and their assessment process!) performs as expected.

noodles
14-01-2015, 10:07 PM
What's the tax situation for lenders? Do Harmoney deal with the RWT? Is it tax free?

Halebop
14-01-2015, 10:12 PM
What's the tax situation for lenders? Do Harmoney deal with the RWT? Is it tax free?

They have a similar process to banks - you specify the with-holding tax or prove to them why you should be zero rated.

Cricketfan
15-01-2015, 01:11 PM
I just signed up today and tried to invest a small amount, but apparently there aren't enough loans on the marketplace. Is that a sign of not many borrowers, or has the recent media attention created a flood of investors? I hope it's not normally this hard to find loans to invest in!

Harvey Specter
15-01-2015, 01:32 PM
I just signed up today and tried to invest a small amount, but apparently there aren't enough loans on the marketplace. Is that a sign of not many borrowers, or has the recent media attention created a flood of investors? I hope it's not normally this hard to find loans to invest in!There is over a page of loans currently which is good for them - have very rarely seen 3 pages and have had them run out completely. I understand they drip feed them to the market so as those get taken up, they will be replaced.

Of the 2 pages currently, only 2 meet my criteria.

Cricketfan
15-01-2015, 01:59 PM
There is over a page of loans currently which is good for them - have very rarely seen 3 pages and have had them run out completely. I understand they drip feed them to the market so as those get taken up, they will be replaced.

Of the 2 pages currently, only 2 meet my criteria.

That would seem to make it hard for investors. I just tried to do a Quick Invest and it just never found anything for me to invest in. I've withdrawn my funds in the meantime. Seems pointless having them sitting in there when I can't invest in anything.

Harvey Specter
15-01-2015, 02:42 PM
Ive never used quick invest. What rate did you ask for?

It is pretty quick using the filters to fine loans you are interested in (for me C-E 36 month). When I was investing, I would guess I would average about 10 loans (so multiply that by the number of notes per loan you want to get $ amount) a week ( I did weekly deposits). In some cases this only took a day, in others it took the whole week to find them. In others I found them quickly but they expired without filling fully. It would probably be a bit quicker now so maybe expect 20 loans per week depending on how strict with criteria you are.

Cricketfan
15-01-2015, 03:02 PM
Ive never used quick invest. What rate did you ask for?


I didn't get to that stage. First you enter an amount (I tried low amounts like $500 and higher amounts like $3000) and every time it comes back saying there are no notes available.

Never mind, maybe I will look into it again when it gets more popular and there are more loans at any given time.

ruaboy
15-01-2015, 03:58 PM
I didn't get to that stage. First you enter an amount (I tried low amounts like $500 and higher amounts like $3000) and every time it comes back saying there are no notes available.

Never mind, maybe I will look into it again when it gets more popular and there are more loans at any given time.

just in case there is a misunderstanding, when you say you are trying low amounts eg $500. the box that you put what you want in, is in units of $25 so if you put 500 in the box it is assuming you what $12,500 worth.If you want $500 worth you put in 20 .

Harvey Specter
15-01-2015, 04:06 PM
just in case there is a misunderstanding, when you say you are trying low amounts eg $500. the box that you put what you want in, is in units of $25 so if you put 500 in the box it is assuming you what $12,500 worth.If you want $500 worth you put in 20 .He is looking at the Quick Invest page which is in dollars, not number of notes.

I cant currently test it as I am fully invested.

unhuman
28-01-2015, 02:28 PM
So I assume all other Trade Me uses got an email today promoting Harmoney like I did.

Hopefully this publicity will increase the demand for loans and give some supply easing for investors (if that was the case above).

Anyone else looking at investing in this?

Harvey Specter
28-01-2015, 02:43 PM
So I assume all other Trade Me uses got an email today promoting Harmoney like I did.
NOt yet. I would expect them to do it in batchs so they can test response rates etc with varous wording. Trademe must have massive mailing list o it is good to hear Harmoney is putting their new investor to work.

dingoNZ
28-01-2015, 02:57 PM
Received mine this morning

Kees
28-01-2015, 05:10 PM
Yes just signed up

McGyro
28-01-2015, 06:12 PM
Should have renamed it "Shark Me" or something similar. It will end in tears for the lenders; mark my words.

unhuman
28-01-2015, 07:15 PM
Yes will only be dipping my toes into this with an immaterial investment.

However I do think its an interesting addition to a portfolio.

P2P lending seems to have done well overseas, so much so that all the big banks are now buying them up.

I note that HNZ is already a shareholder of Harmoney.

McGyro
28-01-2015, 08:25 PM
Lets hope your toes don't get bitten off.
Banks got caught trading in deceptively packaged toxic debt around 2008. The P2P lending seems to lend itself (ha) to a similar marketable package. Hopefully my fears are unfounded and I've just been spending too much time hanging around conspiracy theorists.

ScrappyO
29-01-2015, 11:25 AM
I put in $500 a couple of weeks ago spreading it out over 12 loans. One of the loans was nearly all paid back within 24hrs and the rest about week later. $75 was in that loan. I was charged 88cents and received no interest. So a loss to me straight away.
Since it was the only transaction I could see that I made a loss on that loan. I find the balances take there time to adjust and find it a little bit confusing.

777
29-01-2015, 01:49 PM
I put in $500 a couple of weeks ago spreading it out over 12 loans. One of the loans was nearly all paid back within 24hrs and the rest about week later. $75 was in that loan. I was charged 88cents and received no interest. So a loss to me straight away.
Since it was the only transaction I could see that I made a loss on that loan. I find the balances take there time to adjust and find it a little bit confusing.

They should at least refund the 88c. Not much money but a principle is involved.

Email them.

Mort
02-02-2015, 01:15 PM
They should at least refund the 88c. Not much money but a principle is involved.

Email them.
Was the 88c showing in your service fee? This will be the 1.25% of the principle & interest payments made to you (not 1.25% of the interest) if the loan is fully paid off within 5 days we get our principle back, with no interest as the borrower does not pay interest & no service fee applies.
I'd be interested in others thoughts though, the service fee is charged on every payment including a large payment that will fully repay the loan, e.g.I had $1000 in a loan that fully repaid after 61 days, I received $19 interest but will have been charged $13 as a service fee (I say will have been because the service fee is not shown against each loan, just as a portfolio total) I would have thought the fair way to charge a service fee would be on regular payments only. If a loan is paid off on say day 6, you would take a loss.
As I said, interested in thoughts.

Harvey Specter
02-02-2015, 01:40 PM
As I said, interested in thoughts.The service fee should definitely not exceed the interest in my opinion. A bit less clear in your situation.

I wonder if there should be 1.25% early repayment fee (at least in the first 12 months of the loan) so the net effect to the lender is 0. If we dont have the option to call the loan early, even at a discount, why do they have the option to repay at no cost?

axe
02-02-2015, 04:24 PM
The service fee should definitely not exceed the interest in my opinion. A bit less clear in your situation.

I wonder if there should be 1.25% early repayment fee (at least in the first 12 months of the loan) so the net effect to the lender is 0. If we dont have the option to call the loan early, even at a discount, why do they have the option to repay at no cost?


Last I read of the borrower T's and Q's people can repay their loan early for no penalty.

Beagle
02-02-2015, 05:48 PM
For what its worth my thoughts are that with all the dozens of finance company failures during the GFC what did we learn ? Basically a disturbingly large percentage of consumer credit goes bad in a GFC so in a GFC MK2 I'd expect lenders to get thoroughly belted. Makes this a fair weather investment only doesn't it ?

newtrader
02-02-2015, 07:52 PM
As a sidetrack while we are on the topic of service fees. Other P2P platforms refund the investor the service fees charged if the borrower defaults.
I think this is a good incentive for the platform (e.g. Harmoney) to ensure their underwriting process is robust and not simply approving loans to get the loan origination fee upfront.

ScrappyO
02-02-2015, 08:53 PM
[QUOTE=Mort;528822]Was the 88c showing in your service fee? This will be the 1.25% of the principle & interest payments made to you (not 1.25% of the interest) if the loan is fully paid off within 5 days we get our principle back, with no interest as the borrower does not pay interest & no service fee applies.


Hi Mort, yes the 88c is showing as a service fee. I received no interest.

Harvey Specter
03-02-2015, 10:03 AM
Last I read of the borrower T's and Q's people can repay their loan early for no penalty.I appreciate that but question whether it is right??


For what its worth my thoughts are that with all the dozens of finance company failures during the GFC what did we learn ? Basically a disturbingly large percentage of consumer credit goes bad in a GFC so in a GFC MK2 I'd expect lenders to get thoroughly belted. Makes this a fair weather investment only doesn't it ?Really. I though the finance company's were brought down by over lending on second mortgages to questionable property developments.

Consumer credit requires the borrower to either leave the country, go into hiding or declare bankruptcy for the debt to go bad doesn't it?

I will be watching for an increase in consumer default but given share prices also fell during the GFC, the main disadvantage of Harmoney is that the investments are completely illiquid until such time as they introduce secondary market. That is one reason why I favour 3 year loans (over 60% of mine).

Beagle
03-02-2015, 10:48 AM
I appreciate that but question whether it is right??

Really. I though the finance company's were brought down by over lending on second mortgages to questionable property developments.

Consumer credit requires the borrower to either leave the country, go into hiding or declare bankruptcy for the debt to go bad doesn't it?

I will be watching for an increase in consumer default but given share prices also fell during the GFC, the main disadvantage of Harmoney is that the investments are completely illiquid until such time as they introduce secondary market. That is one reason why I favour 3 year loans (over 60% of mine).

Lessons about Consumer credit from my experience with Geneva Finance.

1. Many people simply walk away from loans when times get difficult, others shift their address without telling their creditors.
2. Lend money to monkey's and they'll misbehave as sure as night follows day
3. There's the new short form bankruptcy procedure, no assets, liabilities under $40K that's only a 12 month one off from of bankruptcy that's costing consumer finance companies plenty http://www.insolvency.govt.nz/cms/financial-trouble/personal/step3/no-asset-procedure/key-points-nap This is especially useful for people with credit card / consumer debt who's car has died. This relatively new procedure has become a nightmare for consumer finance companies.
4. If people are borrowing at high interest rates the only reason for this is the mainstream lenders have declined them, more often than not for very good reasons.
5. Even if you do get into an amended scheme of arrangement with loan defaulters they often don't make their payments or the payments are at some pathetic rate like $10 a week.
6. If borrowers don't have serious skin in the game, (like a decent 40% deposit on that car) and if serious mechanical problems ensue then option 3 can become more attractive.
7. young people are notoriously unreliable with consumer credit, sorry but they are.
8. Late payers and defaulters usually require weekly micro management which from an administration perspective is extremely onerous and time consuming.
9. Identity Fraud http://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/73839/216000-new-zealanders-using-fake-names-when-applying-credit
10. Conspiring with car / plant and equipment dealers to fraudulently hydraulic up the price to give the appearance of a proper deposit having been paid
11. Fraudulent alteration of supporting loan application documents for submission online, (easier than fraudulently altering them for application and inspection of documents in person)

Harvey Specter
03-02-2015, 01:10 PM
Roger

1,2,4,6,10 Accept
3,5,8 This is the risk and I guess we have to hope Harmoney have their calculations correct in relation to the expected number of defaults. The rates I am receiving, account for expected defaults still have quite a large buffer for extra defaults over and above the rate I could get at the bank. Hopefully the risk/reward balance is correct.
7. you can control when choosing loans. The worst loan in my opinion is a young person wanting to go on an overseas trip. High risk they will like it and never come back (or more likely, plan a OE once they return).
9 Hopefully Harmoney has this covered.

I generally go for:
- small loan balances (so if their only debt, not worth dong short form bankruptcy)
- where the payments are less than 10% of income (gives buffer should they hve to take a lower paying job)
- which are 36 months (hopefully you would have received most your money before they default)
- over 30 (ie. not young)
- not for a holiday (dont trust someone who borrows at 20%+ for a holiday)

Beagle
03-02-2015, 02:37 PM
Hi Harvey

I like your front end filters. Honestly I don't know enough about their front end checks, operational procedures and methodologies for dealing with delinquent debtors to comment further.
I would say however that while fuel prices are low, this should be of significant assistance to people with consumer credit so delinquencies are likely to be lower than historical norms.
Good luck with it.

Harvey Specter
04-02-2015, 09:23 AM
Thanks. It is only small money for me, and even compared to others on this forum who have invested a lot more.

emveha
07-02-2015, 11:49 AM
As a sidetrack while we are on the topic of service fees. Other P2P platforms refund the investor the service fees charged if the borrower defaults.
I think this is a good incentive for the platform (e.g. Harmoney) to ensure their underwriting process is robust and not simply approving loans to get the loan origination fee upfront.

I agree. Otherwise Harmoney has too much incentive to push down their risk estimation.

Bjauck
11-02-2015, 12:13 PM
Sorry if this has already been covered. I have just been looking into Harmoney and I was wondering - with Harmoney whether your loan "notes" that become bad debts or delinquent during the year could be deducted from your interest for tax purposes.

For example during the year, if you have $10,000 invested with Harmoney you may have earned $1500 interest but also $500 of your notes became uncollectible (even after Harmoney collection procedures). Would you be able to deduct the bad debts of $500 from the $1500 interest so that you would just declare $1000 income from Harmoney?

I know with listed bonds that if you sell the bond for a capital profit that profit is taxable whereas if you sell the bond for a capital loss it is not always deductible (for example where it was due to a reduction in credit worthiness). There is a type of lop-sided capital gains tax by stealth in NZ on financial arrangements.

unhuman
14-02-2015, 04:33 AM
No, it would be a capital loss.

The way Bad Debts work is that it is to offset income that has already been recorded but will not be received.

i.e. if you are a business and make a sale on credit, income is recorded. However if that credit goes bad and the income will never be received then you offset the income with the Bad Debt expense, thus the overall effect is nil.

With Harmoney, the loan payments are capital repayments, not income. Thus any payments not made are capital losses and not Bad Debt expenses.

noodles
14-02-2015, 07:48 AM
No, it would be a capital loss.

The way Bad Debts work is that it is to offset income that has already been recorded but will not be received.

i.e. if you are a business and make a sale on credit, income is recorded. However if that credit goes bad and the income will never be received then you offset the income with the Bad Debt expense, thus the overall effect is nil.

With Harmoney, the loan payments are capital repayments, not income. Thus any payments not made are capital losses and not Bad Debt expenses.

Interesting. So unless you are setup as a trading company, you could not account for your capital losses? I.e You would be paying too much tax

Bjauck
14-02-2015, 01:38 PM
No, it would be a capital loss.

The way Bad Debts work is that it is to offset income that has already been recorded but will not be received.

i.e. if you are a business and make a sale on credit, income is recorded. However if that credit goes bad and the income will never be received then you offset the income with the Bad Debt expense, thus the overall effect is nil.

With Harmoney, the loan payments are capital repayments, not income. Thus any payments not made are capital losses and not Bad Debt expenses.

Thanks for your answer. The taxation of financial arrangements rules blur the distinction between capital and income.

So, if you loan someone $1000 through harmoney and they pay back $500 plus $150 interest in the year, before being judged bankrupt, then you will have to return $150 as income. Even though the "financial arrangement" actually resulted in a loss for you of $350 (+500+150-1000).

If that is the case, it seems unfair that no allowance is made for that capital loss. When for example, you have to pay tax, under financial arrangement rules, on a capital profit when you sell a bond.

Bjauck
14-02-2015, 01:51 PM
Interesting. So unless you are setup as a trading company, you could not account for your capital losses? I.e You would be paying too much tax
Your Harmoney investment will inevitably lead to paying too much tax. All Harmoney "notes" have a default % attached to them. Depending on the riskiness of the notes you invest in, you can expect to have some of your loan notes remaining unpaid in an average year. So over the long run, your Harmoney investment is income generative and capital depletive!

I have looked on the Harmoney website to see how it fits into the financial arrangement scheme - but could find nothing. I sent their investor helpline an email a few days ago - but no response.

777
14-02-2015, 02:48 PM
You should be able to deduct the 1.25% fee from your taxable income.

Totally agree with inhuman regarding the fact that a default will be a capital loss.

Harvey Specter
14-02-2015, 05:49 PM
It will be interesting to see what they provide for end of tax year. Especially in relation to right offs - bacause to the extent you have earned interest on those loans, that should come off your capital loss.

Halebop
14-02-2015, 07:58 PM
Have built a bit of VBA to run a modest Monte Carlo simulation to generate a range of defaults and gross returns.

The simulations maintained a close proximity to Harmoney's advertised default rates and timing yet still generated a wide variance in default values. It's a cautionary view for those "testing the water" with a small sum of money - it is essentially gambling on being fortunate.

The results also generated a simulated return 1% below the return Harmoney suggest should be achieved. I could have a logical or modelling method error somewhere but haven't found anything yet so am slightly suspicious of their methodology.

70567057

Bjauck
15-02-2015, 08:43 AM
Interesting figures. I think Harmoney have said that over time they may fine tune their default rate figures. Agree - Harmoney investments are a gamble with potentially high interest rates along with the potential for significant capital depletion.

As far as the tax accounting for the capital depletion, Harmoney FAQ states underForecast Annual return "This is the forecast return of the notes in your portfolio on an annual basis. It is calculated by taking forecast annual net income and dividing it by the outstanding principal. Forecast annual net income is interest less defaults and service fees. Defaults are calculated as the percentage of outstanding principal that is forecast to be written off as a bad debt over the next 12 months. "

The emphasis is mine. So it appears that Harmoney's net income calculation includes forecast bad debts. However whether taxable income allows a deduction even for actual bad debts, I do not know. I am more sure returned Taxable income would not allow for forecast bad debts or doubtful debts. It seems you need to refer to the law on financial arrangements, which is voluminous.

newtrader
15-02-2015, 11:50 AM
That's a very interesting simulation. I have a few questions for you.

I assume you ran this simulation across your own portfolio.
Is the wide variance in default values for grades E-F due to the small sample size?
Do you think the wide variance on default values would drop if an investor increased their investment perhaps to over 400 notes?
Why your default model slightly difference to Harmoney's? Did you use some software to read the default model chart from their site?
The XIRR yield is 18.1% from your simulations. What is the 'Net Yield' and 'Net Yield loss deductions' and why is it lower than the XIRR yield?
Very nice graphics, what software did you use to produce these?


Have built a bit of VBA to run a modest Monte Carlo simulation to generate a range of defaults and gross returns.

The simulations maintained a close proximity to Harmoney's advertised default rates and timing yet still generated a wide variance in default values. It's a cautionary view for those "testing the water" with a small sum of money - it is essentially gambling on being fortunate.

The results also generated a simulated return 1% below the return Harmoney suggest should be achieved. I could have a logical or modelling method error somewhere but haven't found anything yet so am slightly suspicious of their methodology.

70567057

Bjauck
15-02-2015, 01:05 PM
If "bad debts" are not allowed to be taken into account for tax purposes then you will end up with a tax rate greater than 33% on the Harmoney definition of "annual net income".

As a matter of interest, for those with an investment with Harmoney, on average, what percent of your investment is in the Harmoney Investor Account (earning zero interest) compared to the proportion of your outlay invested in interest-earning "notes"?

It is probably much less than this in actuality, but if half your money with harmoney is sitting in the 0% interest account at any one time, then your xirr yield on your notes will need to be halved to get the yield on your total Harmoney outlay.

Halebop
15-02-2015, 01:05 PM
I assume you ran this simulation across your own portfolio.

Yes, my wife's portfolio as of a week or so ago.


Is the wide variance in default values for grades E-F due to the small sample size?

The entire portfolio is small so there is wide variation across the whole thing, it's just that a 100% movement on defaults for A1 notes will barely register because the base default rate is so low. But yes, to control this would need either a bigger sample or more simulations than the 300 per note I ran.

Keep in mind though that by running 300 simulations the sample is 193x300 or 57,900 data points - any single simulation is random but in aggregate this won't be too bad.


Do you think the wide variance on default values would drop if an investor increased their investment perhaps to over 400 notes?

You would certainly expect to see the core results narrow (particularly between the 25th and 75th percentiles). I've run the basic model dozens of times and the median point for default value has varied between 5.2% and 5.6%. My instinct is that a sample size of 400 would not get you close enough to certainty but it's better than 193! Remember though these are multiple simulations - in real life you only get to push run once.


Why your default model slightly difference to Harmoney's? Did you use some software to read the default model chart from their site?

I just copied their default by credit rating stats to a local table and replicated as best I was able their default time-line chart (this was an image on the Harmoney site, not a table).

The difference could just be natural statistical variation - I ran 300 random simulations using the default rates as business rules for comparison with randomly generated numbers. You would not expect this to be a perfect match. However, my aggregate result in both default rate (how many notes defaulted) and default timing (which month they defaulted) remained very close to Harmoney's model. So I was a little surprised (but not panicked) in the 1% difference in projected returns. It could just be down to differences in calculating the yield - I used the Excel XIRR method, there are alternative approaches.


The XIRR yield is 18.1% from your simulations. What is the 'Net Yield' and 'Net Yield loss deductions' and why is it lower than the XIRR yield?

This aligns to the current tax debate on the thread. I wasn't sure if some/all loan losses would be deductible. So the net yield just assumes 28% tax on the return before loan losses and the loss deduction version allows these to be expensed before 28% tax is calculated. The difference is not far off the projected British experience - they are allowing loan loss deductions in a couple of months and expect net investor returns to benefit by about +25%.


Very nice graphics, what software did you use to produce these?

Just Excel. The general design approach (type of charts, monochromatic, stripped bare/little framing etc) is current best practice thinking on data visualisation.

scottwalshnz
15-02-2015, 08:38 PM
Just Excel. The general design approach (type of charts, monochromatic, stripped bare/little framing etc) is current best practice thinking on data visualisation.

Would you consider sharing your model (with any sensitive data removed)? I haven't done that sort of modelling in Excel, so interested to see your approach...

Halebop
15-02-2015, 09:56 PM
Would you consider sharing your model (with any sensitive data removed)? I haven't done that sort of modelling in Excel, so interested to see your approach...

Happy to share although I'm not pretending the model itself is best practice.

If you don't mind give me a couple of weeks to improve the speed of the code; I built the VBA one feature at a time and now it runs quite slow. This will become a big problem when there are many hundreds or thousands of notes. It just needs a little bit of thought to improve...

Harvey Specter
16-02-2015, 09:18 AM
As a matter of interest, for those with an investment with Harmoney, on average, what percent of your investment is in the Harmoney Investor Account (earning zero interest) compared to the proportion of your outlay invested in interest-earning "notes"?

It is probably much less than this in actuality, but if half your money with harmoney is sitting in the 0% interest account at any one time, then your xirr yield on your notes will need to be halved to get the yield on your total Harmoney outlay.While it does take a while to get money invested, once fully invested, I would have less than 1% in the investor account at any one time. This does mean you need to check every day or two to see when you are over $25 and need to invest again. Loan notes are now closing quick now so it is very rare to have money sittin in the 'in funding' account for more than a day so that might be another 1% of the portfolio.

I actually had negative in my investor account at one point. I assume a deposit into my account was incorrect but by the time they reversed it, I was already reinvested.

The tax situation is interesting - I invest via a company which is in the business of investing (primarily shares on capital account) but also now loans via Harmoney ( the capital/revenue line is blurred by the FA rules). Will this allow the company to claim the bad debt since it is in the business of investing? Figures crossed for the next 44 or so days that I dont have to consider it for this tax year.

unhuman
16-02-2015, 10:27 AM
The tax situation is interesting - I invest via a company which is in the business of investing (primarily shares on capital account) but also now loans via Harmoney ( the capital/revenue line is blurred by the FA rules). Will this allow the company to claim the bad debt since it is in the business of investing? Figures crossed for the next 44 or so days that I dont have to consider it for this tax year.

I would recommend speaking to your accountant, however I highly doubt it.

The structure of the investment does not matter; it is the intent behind each individual investment that is important.

i.e. if you buy shares or property with the intent to sell at a profit then that capital profit becomes income and thus taxable (what you currently have in your company).

This does not apply to Harmoney as there is no intent at the time of issuing each loan note to make a capital profit (no loanees will of course pay more than 100% of the principal).

The only intent at the time of issue is to purely receive interest income.

Thus only the gross interest, RWT paid and the management fee expense will apply to anyone’s tax return, regardless of structure.

The reasoning behind keeping shares that are on capital account separate in a different entity than shares that are on revenue account is purely for simplicity come accounting for tax payable. The structure itself does not influence how the investment is treated.

Harvey Specter
16-02-2015, 10:34 AM
I would recommend speaking to your accountant, however I highly doubt it.Agree.

I was more thinking along the lines of 'in the business of' rather than capital revenue. A bank can claim a deduction for bad debts because it is in the business of making loans, some of which are expected to go bad. That is exactly the same position as my company. As I said, I haven't looked at it at all but it does seem unfair where I am investing in something where I expect an x% default rate, that I cant get a bad debt deduction. Hopefully I never have to answer this question but I doubt it.

unhuman
16-02-2015, 11:25 AM
Thats an interesting way to look at it, I would also like a definite answer.

In the UK at least deafults on P2P loans are capital, I would assume they would be the same here.


Zopa co-founder Giles Andrews says the way income tax is charged on peer-to-peer lending is unfair.
“It allows lenders to offset our fees against interest earned for tax purposes but not losses from bad debts,” he explains. “Obviously, the net returns would be much higher if lenders could do so and it’s something we have been lobbying for since we launched.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/854e01d6-8870-11e1-a727-00144feab49a.html#axzz3RrJcqpj2

Bjauck
16-02-2015, 01:57 PM
Agree.

I was more thinking along the lines of 'in the business of' rather than capital revenue. A bank can claim a deduction for bad debts because it is in the business of making loans, some of which are expected to go bad. That is exactly the same position as my company. As I said, I haven't looked at it at all but it does seem unfair where I am investing in something where I expect an x% default rate, that I cant get a bad debt deduction. Hopefully I never have to answer this question but I doubt it.

As I understand them, under FA rules you do not necessarily have to be "in business" for capital profits to be taxable. So perhaps under FA you do not have to be in business to deduct delinquent "notes". However, since you may have seen quite a few notes being redeemed and invested in during the course of a financial year, perhaps that would be enough for you to actually be "in the Business" of dealing in the "notes"?

Beagle
17-02-2015, 11:18 AM
Disc - As most of you know I'm an accountant. I am extremely reluctant to give an answer to this deductibility question as I am fairly sure this is something that will be subject to litigation with the IRD in due course. This isn't clear-cut and its an entirely new investment product. In my opinion much will depend upon the circumstances of each investors case. If you're clearly a professional investor and the size of your investment in Harmoney is substantial and spread over a substantial number of loans AND the level of proven bad debtors was significantly more than the expected delinquency rate as modelled by Harmoney I think there's a reasonably good arguable case that those losses are deducible under the general provisions of a necessarily incurred business expense. For smaller investors it could be possible to make a case that delinquent debtors are an ordinary and expected cost in making this sort of investment i.e. just like the commission that Harmoney take out.

Harvey Specter
17-02-2015, 11:37 AM
Disc - As most of you know I'm an accountant. I am extremely reluctant to give an answer to this deductibility question as I am fairly sure this is something that will be subject to litigation with the IRD in due course.
I recommend you discuss this with your accountant.Not worth a binding ruling (unless Harmoney did a product ruling) but maybe someone should submit a question for a QWBA (is there a formal way to do that or do they just answer what they want?).

For those wanting more info, I think this is the relevant section: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2007/0097/latest/DLM1513650.html

Most punters would fall under subsection (2) (deduction limited to accessible income) but a deduction can be claimed for capital loss if you fall under subsection (3). The question being does holding hundreds of loan notes make you a person who "carries on a business for the purpose of deriving assessable income that includes dealing in or holding financial arrangements that are the same as, or similar to, the financial arrangement"

Beagle
17-02-2015, 11:53 AM
Not worth a binding ruling (unless Harmoney did a product ruling) but maybe someone should submit a question for a QWBA (is there a formal way to do that or do they just answer what they want?).

For those wanting more info, I think this is the relevant section: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2007/0097/latest/DLM1513650.html

Most punters would fall under subsection (2) (deduction limited to accessible income) but a deduction can be claimed for capital loss if you fall under subsection (3). The question being does holding hundreds of loan notes make you a person who "carries on a business for the purpose of deriving assessable income that includes dealing in or holding financial arrangements that are the same as, or similar to, the financial arrangement"

The bigger your investment in Harmoney the stronger your case that you are in business IMO.
Not sure Harvey. Lots of TIB's, (Technical Information Bulletin's) with questions we've been asked and answers...one wonders how many questions they've been asked that they haven't answered ???
There's so many variables. Anything from a single individual investing say $500 to a professional investor (company / individual, joint investor / trust) with a multi million dollar portfolio investing a six figure sum I'm not sure they would know the answer to a generic question of loss deductibility on this new investment product. Case law will surely develop over time.

Harvey Specter
17-02-2015, 01:34 PM
. Case law will surely develop over time.Not sure about that. hardly worth going to court for unless you are big (which means less likely to be disputed as in business).

Bjauck
17-02-2015, 02:27 PM
I would have expected Harmoney to have sought legal advice as to what constitutes taxable income for an investor as they are obliged to deduct RWT from it.

On their Investor-faq page they state under "How is Forecast Annual Return (FAR) calculated?":
"... Forecast annual net income is interest less defaults and service fees. Defaults are calculated as the percentage of outstanding principal that is forecast to be written off as a bad debt over the next 12 months."

So it seems that Harmoney would consider actual net income to be interest less actual defaults and service fees. I am presuming that defaults are the value of delinquent notes. Would Harmoney consider that this actual net income be the taxable income to be entered on an investor's tax return?

I have sent an email on this point to investor enquiries. Eventually I got an answer which stated that Harmoney may choose to take legal action against defaulted borrowers to recover costs. In other words my question was not understood. Maybe someone else could send an investor enquiry on this point.

Harvey Specter
17-02-2015, 02:34 PM
I would have expected Harmoney to have sought legal advice as to what constitutes taxable income for an investor as they are obliged to deduct RWT from it. The income bit is quite settled. It is any money coming in and to the extent it is interest, they withhold RWT.

The question is whether bad debts are deductible and the answer is murky and probably depends on the individual investors personal situation so not something Harmoney can answer (and neither can the IRD unless they put your account into dispute - you cant even get a binding ruling as the more I think about it, the answer is a question of fact, not law).

Re their 'annual net income', I think this is misleading as most think of net interest as after tax but they only mean net of defaults. It is not a tax effected number.

Beagle
17-02-2015, 03:47 PM
Not sure about that. hardly worth going to court for unless you are big (which means less likely to be disputed as in business).

There's always the prospect of Taxation Review Authority decisions in due course and the prospect that if they're challenged in court the Judge may give a ruling that gives a view on general deductibility criteria notwithstanding the specific aspects of the case.

For my money it's a lot easier, (more time efficient and potentially far more rewarding as well as probably far less problematic), to invest in HNZ shares and let them take care of all the administration. Just sit back and allow the fully imputed dividends to increase my investment via shares in lieu of dividend and watch the share price increase over time :)

Harmoney could be a name that's suggestive of an investment experience that could prove to be anything but that for some investors...just saying.

Remember Geneva finance that was such a sweet name that was suggestive of a Swiss financial institutional banking experience ?...an Omen for Harmoney ?
Post #53 sum's up my concerns in a nutshell. Who needs the potential aggravation ????

winner69
17-02-2015, 04:48 PM
The time to avoid Harmony will they get a big name on TV telling us great they are .... both as a lender as well as somewhere to invest

Somehow I feel I had God on my side when I failed who I am test and got rejected out of hand

emveha
18-02-2015, 08:02 AM
Post #53 sum's up my concerns in a nutshell.

Where you're comparing borrowers with monkeys?

Harvey Specter
18-02-2015, 08:20 AM
For my money it's a lot easier, to invest in HNZ sharesEvena TRA case is likely to cost more than the forgone deduction for capital loss unless you have 100k's invested.

Dont worry, I have a lot more invested in HNZ than I do in Harmoney.

Harvey Specter
18-02-2015, 12:52 PM
Depends on the extent of the loss. Say $100k with Harmoney (which would be alot!) and say 25% default (higher than they predict) so $25k loss in a year. But part of that can be offset against interest income so say $20k capital loss. Tax on that is under $7k. Unless this is multiple years (4 years x $7k) or there was a total market collapse (losses greater than $25k) then the cost to go to court would exceed the tax in question. And that is someone with a big holding who is more likely to claim they are in the business so less likely to be pursued by Inland Revenue.

Beagle
18-02-2015, 01:38 PM
Say $100k with Harmoney (which would be alot!) and say 25% default (higher than they predict) so $25k loss in a year. But part of that can be offset against interest income so say $20k capital loss. Tax on that is under $7k. Unless this is multiple years (4 years x $7k) or there was a total market collapse (losses greater than $25k) then the cost to go to court would exceed the tax in question. And that is someone with a big holding who is more likely to claim they are in the business so less likely to be pursued by Inland Revenue.

Yep...I decided to quit that post. People will simply have to live with the uncertainty of whether they can deduct untoward delinquencies or stump up the cost of a binding ruling. From my experience with Geneva finance delinquency modelling with consumer finance is usually woefully inadequate. Who knows, maybe these guys are smarter than the management at Geneva, (which wouldn't be hard) or perish the thought, maybe they're worse :eek2: Good luck :)

Harvey Specter
23-02-2015, 01:21 PM
Heartland have invested $17m though Harmoney. Assuming the risk assessment is exactly the same for wholesale and retail investors (which I assume it is), then Harmoney must be happy with their algorithms.

Does instill a bit of confidence.

newtrader
23-02-2015, 04:10 PM
As an investor, you do have to trust/believe they have a robust credit grading model which can accurately predict repayments and the probability of defaults.

The guys running Harmoney come from a traditional finance background so I assume they are using a battle-tested credit model.

But only time (3+ years) will tell if their credit model is any good...

discl. minor investor in Harmoney


Heartland have invested $17m though Harmoney. Assuming the risk assessment is exactly the same for wholesale and retail investors (which I assume it is), then Harmoney must be happy with their algorithms.

Does instill a bit of confidence.

iceman
26-02-2015, 10:56 AM
This is one helluva leap if it happens http://www.interest.co.nz/news/74202/harmoney-ceo-getting-excited-about-potential-move-residential-mortgage-market

Bjauck
26-02-2015, 11:33 AM
This is one helluva leap if it happens http://www.interest.co.nz/news/74202/harmoney-ceo-getting-excited-about-potential-move-residential-mortgage-market
Thanks for the link. I guess it is not surprising as so much personal debt in NZ is tied up in residential property. I feel a caveat here may be that Harmoney may be in the segment of the market that has been turned down by the established players, so may be more susceptible to a popping of the ever-inflating bubble?

Harvey Specter
26-02-2015, 11:44 AM
This is one helluva leap if it happens http://www.interest.co.nz/news/74202/harmoney-ceo-getting-excited-about-potential-move-residential-mortgage-marketInteresting but they will need a lot more funders to make it work. This is the bit that I found facinating:


With a mortgage you get the opportunity to have subordinated debt so you can actually fractionalise a single mortgage and take proportions that are risk weighted.So for a $100k mortgage, they first $80k could be grade A and gets repaid first and the next $20K could be Grade B and gets repaid last but does receive a higher interest rate. Effectively a first and second mortgage in one.

luigi
26-02-2015, 03:10 PM
So for a $100k mortgage, they first $80k could be grade A and gets repaid first and the next $20K could be Grade B and gets repaid last but does receive a higher interest rate. Effectively a first and second mortgage in one.

For low grades I can see the potential appeal but I can't see how a grade A mortgage tranche could offer sufficient margin over term deposit rates for a Harmoney retail investor to be interested.

Harvey Specter
26-02-2015, 03:38 PM
For low grades I can see the potential appeal but I can't see how a grade A mortgage tranche could offer sufficient margin over term deposit rates for a Harmoney retail investor to be interested.Who said retail. Only 20% of loans are invested in by retail if my recollection of the story is correct. In the US, funds are starting to invest via these sorts of platforms. Expect the likes of some kiwisaver and Superannuation providers getting exposure to debt via this. The biggests issue I see for NZ is getting enough investors to fractionalise a $500k+ mortgage.

Bjauck
04-03-2015, 10:54 AM
Depending on where we are in the economic cycle will affect the allowance in expected annual return for bad debts. When calculating its Forecast Annual Return for the investor, does Harmoney make an allowance for early repayment by the borrower? As discussed earlier, the investor is still charged a % on capital repaid, even on early repayments. If many loans are repaid early then it will have a material effect on investor returns. I imagine there must be a calculable probability of early repayments for each loan grade.

777
12-03-2015, 09:25 AM
Those of you investing with Harmoney, is your dashboard updating. Mine has not for close on two weeks yet the amount of money available to invest (as shown on the market page) is increasing with repayments and interest.

Losing faith in their administration.

Harvey Specter
12-03-2015, 09:48 AM
Those of you investing with Harmoney, is your dashboard updating. Mine has not for close on two weeks yet the amount of money available to invest (as shown on the market page) is increasing with repayments and interest.

Losing faith in their administration.Pretty sure mines updating. The 'amount invested' on mine is out by $200 which they haven't fixed even though I have advised them. Waiting till they do their first update before I flood them with feedback as no doubt they are aware of most of the issues with the current site.

777
12-03-2015, 10:05 AM
Thanks HS. They are not inclined to keep you updated on queries. May be due to incompetence or simply because of the magnitude of queries. I am close to just taking back money as it comes due and forgetting them. 95% of my loans are for 36 months and total about $26,000. The whole deal lacks transparency for me.

You win some and lose some.

babymonster
13-03-2015, 10:03 AM
Hi everyone, I have invested at harmoney as well. Do you know what happen if the borrower missed a repayment. It seems a few of them should make a payment on 11/03 but didn't or hasn't show up on the website?

Harvey Specter
13-03-2015, 11:16 AM
Hi everyone, I have invested at harmoney as well. Do you know what happen if the borrower missed a repayment. It seems a few of them should make a payment on 11/03 but didn't or hasn't show up on the website?I think it may take a day or two to hit your account - could be wrong. If they haven't paid it will show up as 'amount in arrears' on the Dashboard - my performance page. If they dont pay within a week, then I think penalties start accruing.

I constantly have a small amount in arrears but non have been treated as a write off and very few additional penalties have been accrued.

babymonster
13-03-2015, 02:58 PM
Ok, it might just take a couple of days to show up. Thanks
I think it may take a day or two to hit your account - could be wrong. If they haven't paid it will show up as 'amount in arrears' on the Dashboard - my performance page. If they dont pay within a week, then I think penalties start accruing.

I constantly have a small amount in arrears but non have been treated as a write off and very few additional penalties have been accrued.

Harvey Specter
27-03-2015, 08:09 AM
The site has been down for 2 days now. Not a good look.

Those with large balances there must be building up a lot of idle cash.

humvee
27-03-2015, 12:48 PM
The site has been down for 2 days now. Not a good look.

Those with large balances there must be building up a lot of idle cash.


What is going on? Stuffed up software upgrade or something else?

humvee
27-03-2015, 12:51 PM
Yesterday They said "We have already re-opened the investor dashboard for some investors, and expect to progressively open this to all investors over the next 24-72 hours."

Does anyone on here actually have access to their dashboard back yet?

Harvey Specter
27-03-2015, 02:45 PM
I realised there was something wrong yesterday before it went down as my outstanding amounts was 0 ;)

Still no access.

Soolaimon
27-03-2015, 02:51 PM
I have not had an accurate dashboard now for a month. A phone call from the call centre promised return to normal about 3 weeks ago!! Two days ago I got a call from Harmoney office saying that some investors are affected, some will be fixed shortly and all will be well and working by the 21st April. Bit of a fiasco really. With well over a 100 loans it would be quite a job to tote up balances and returns etc. So I will just hope it all gells eventually. I asked about the 8 loans that I have had repaid re the 1.25% fee and it seems that the borrowers have a 5 day cooling off period and if your loan is repaid in that time then no fees. Otherwise the investor is charged the fee. They also calculate that the average term of a loan will be around 28 months as some will be repaid well before maturity. Still a good con
cept and I will be waiting to see if the new dashboard works when it is up and running before further investment.

777
27-03-2015, 02:55 PM
My dashboard is up and working as of this morning. As to it's accuracy I can't comment.

ScrappyO
27-03-2015, 03:26 PM
I asked about the 8 loans that I have had repaid re the 1.25% fee and it seems that the borrowers have a 5 day cooling off period and if your loan is repaid in that time then no fees. Otherwise the investor is charged the fee. .[/QUOTE]

Interesting they say that because I was charged the 1.25% when the loan was repaid straight away.

ScrappyO
27-03-2015, 03:27 PM
My dashboard is up and working as of this morning. As to it's accuracy I can't comment.

I only have 12 loans and they are hard enough to follow. bugger having more.

ratkin
27-03-2015, 04:10 PM
How accurate do you reckon the grades are? Are the A grades really that much safer than the E?

Soolaimon
27-03-2015, 04:20 PM
How accurate do you reckon the grades are? Are the A grades really that much safer than the E?

Hard to say at this stage. Give it a few more months but so far my "arrears" have been across the board between the grades and so far all been paid eventually. Albeit without penalty fees!! And buy the way, my dashboard has just emerged from wherever and seems to be ok.

777
27-03-2015, 07:30 PM
How accurate do you reckon the grades are? Are the A grades really that much safer than the E?

I think you need to grade them yourself. Some of the loans I don't invest in as they seem to have unacceptable info. e.g. Why would a 50-59 yr old rent/board when they show an income of $10,000+ a month? And if they really earned that much why would they borrow money at these rates? You would think their bank would be happy to lend to them. So something is wrong. I doubt their income so give them an "F" irrespective of what Harmoney gives them.

Puggy
28-03-2015, 08:50 PM
Out of 15 loans in the C-E buckets 9 of them are for exactly $10,600. They appear to be for different purposes, but is there a reason they're all this value?

scottwalshnz
29-03-2015, 09:20 AM
Out of 15 loans in the C-E buckets 9 of them are for exactly $10,600. They appear to be for different purposes, but is there a reason they're all this value?

People like round numbers, the people wanted $10,000 plus the $600 Harmoney platform fee comes to a loan of $10,600.

777
29-03-2015, 11:44 AM
Are you serious or just living in a bubble? Why would a 50+ person on $120k a year be renting? Perhaps they are newly arrived in the country, or recently separated or divorced and not living in the family home, perhaps they have sold their house and dont wish to buy in Akl or Chch's stupid property market, maybe they are spenders not savers and dont have a 20% deposit to buy a million dollar Auckland house, maybe they dont plan on being in NZ for very long and dont want to commit to a mortgage, maybe they like living in a certain type of property (rural farm, inner city apartment) but have no wish to own it, perhaps they are choosing to temporarily rent in a particular school zone while their kid attends high school, ... I can think of dozens of reasons why one would choose to rent rather than buy.

As to why Harmoney not a bank, the Harmoney interest rate is 9.99% for someone with a good credit rating, the bank rate for an unsecured personal loan is 17.95%. Yeah, totally hard to see why they didnt go to their bank!

And banks are a pain in the ass, i couldnt even get a basic credit card when i arrived back in NZ, let alone a mortgage (because if you are self employed or rely on investment income, the banks dont consider that to be "real" income).

Just cleaned up all the blood.

I am sure all the banks will be pleased you had a go at me and not them..

The thing is a lot of the loans with high income are paying a lot more than 17.95% interest with Harmoney. Often C3 or lower rates. I think the bank would be a better alternative.

You can either accept Harmoney's grading or do your own with what information you have to work with, their grading, quoted income, housing/living situation,employment situation and the reason for borrowing (if they so wish to give it). At times i wonder if the information given is genuine but that is all we have. You have to form a picture of the person you are lending to. After all the intention is to get your loan repaid.

Each to his/her own.

McGyro
15-04-2015, 06:19 PM
Harmoney are running ads encouraging borrowing for holidays as a way of avoiding jealousy: "Get your own holiday pics. Dont be jealous of your friends' holiday, take your own with a peer-2-peer loan." Responsible advertising?

ratkin
16-04-2015, 03:30 AM
Just cleaned up all the blood.

I am sure all the banks will be pleased you had a go at me and not them..

The thing is a lot of the loans with high income are paying a lot more than 17.95% interest with Harmoney. Often C3 or lower rates. I think the bank would be a better alternative.

You can either accept Harmoney's grading or do your own with what information you have to work with, their grading, quoted income, housing/living situation,employment situation and the reason for borrowing (if they so wish to give it). At times i wonder if the information given is genuine but that is all we have. You have to form a picture of the person you are lending to. After all the intention is to get your loan repaid.

Each to his/her own.

I think they can write anything they want in the comments. The worry is that the best sounding ones are likely to be the ones that are made up, so you could end up having loans with a lot of shifty people. Saying you are helping your son through medical school sounds better than debt consolidation

Soolaimon
20-04-2015, 04:04 PM
My dashboard is up and working as of this morning. As to it's accuracy I can't comment.
My dashboard has been down now for some weeks, and I am looking forward to a new up and running dashboard as promised tomorrow 21st April. Yeah right?????

Harvey Specter
24-04-2015, 03:16 PM
I have had a couple of loans written off - a B3 and a F3. neither ever received a payment.

Beagle
24-04-2015, 04:31 PM
I have had a couple of loans written off - a B3 and a F3. neither ever received a payment.

That's a bit of a worry as in my view one could take the view this is a sign that some degree of fraud is slipping through Harmoney's front end loan application process. Were they loans for overseas holidays by any chance...people with no intention of returning ?

newtrader
24-04-2015, 04:51 PM
I haven't had any loans written off (yet) but expecting a few will, hopefully less than the forecast rate...

I have noticed Harmoney have let some suspicious loans slip through with false information. As an example, I spotted was a borrower who was making 46k per month... Harmoney shortly noticed these irregularities and removed them from the marketplace. There is some value in performing your own 'filtering' when picking loans to fund.

This is one that was 'pending approval' but somehow ended up on the marketplace. Note the massive reported monthly income.

7303

Beagle
24-04-2015, 05:14 PM
Maybe he put his annual income down by mistake ? A lot of people are no good at dotting the I's and crossing the T's filling out forms either paper based or online.

newtrader
24-04-2015, 05:23 PM
You might be right Roger. I hope Harmoney are vigilant and ensure their systems will pick up on errors and irregularities before they end up on the marketplace.

Harvey Specter
24-04-2015, 06:29 PM
That's a bit of a worry as in my view one could take the view this is a sign that some degree of fraud is slipping through Harmoney's front end loan application process. Were they loans for overseas holidays by any chance...people with no intention of returning ?unfortunately that info isn't avaliable one the loan goes though ( that I can find anyway) and with 100s of loans, I don't track that info.

The F3 isn't surprising but the no repayment at all on a $15k B3 loan does suggest fraud involved.

Soolaimon
25-04-2015, 08:02 AM
I have not had any loans written off yet but out of 130 odd loans there have been 10 re-paid with sometimes a negative result for me. It is very difficult for me to reconcile or analise any info as yet cause my dashboard is still not running as it should. Anyone else with this problem? They have emailed me once again saying that they are working hard on the problem. Still keen to invest more when and if this problem is resolved--maybe........

777
25-04-2015, 10:45 AM
Dashboard up and accurate for 2 days. Now nothing has happened for 3 days. Disappointing.

No defaults yet for me. 3 repaid in full. One immediately the other 2 after about 3-4 months. Both worked just slightly better than bank interest.

How accurate do you think their 31/3/15 tax info will be?

blackcap
25-04-2015, 11:30 AM
I had an application ready to go a while back but reading between the lines on this thread I'm glad I never sent it in. Seems to much trouble all round for the potential benefit.

777
25-04-2015, 05:12 PM
Well all correct again now.

bmrm
28-04-2015, 09:50 AM
I had an application ready to go a while back but reading between the lines on this thread I'm glad I never sent it in. Seems to much trouble all round for the potential benefit.

My thoughts exactly. I think p2p lending is very exciting, but I don't think Harmoney have really nailed it. Would be good to see some other players entering the market, if nothing else that should force them to cut their fees, which currently seem totally incommensurate with the service they currently offer.

Soolaimon
30-04-2015, 10:31 AM
I have been advised that the dashboard problem has been resolved and mine seems to be ok now.

ruaboy
30-04-2015, 10:48 AM
I have been advised that the dashboard problem has been resolved and mine seems to be ok now.

I have been advised that mine is correct also but it isn't and hasn't been for some time . There appears to be no way of following what is happening to your account. I have asked for information as to how they arrived at their figures but only get sent more or less the same information as is on the dashboard. They have spent 2 days trying to find my last deposit, which is a day longer than it took to find the previous deposit. Just about over these people, good idea but haven't got the programs in place to run it

black knat
10-05-2015, 06:43 AM
Interesting Harvey those two loan are my only write offs also. I made contact with them about the b3 and was told it was an exceptional circumstance where the guy had lost his job. They reckon they wold have made the same assessment on the loan is B3. I guess that sort of thing will happen sometimes - I have over 300 loans and don't expect or want to be involved in each one.

Puggy
15-05-2015, 04:55 PM
Update for anyone interested, I put in $500 for a test and split it across a D1, E2, 2xE3, and and E4. To date I've had payments on three of them but the E2 and an E3 have already gone into arrears without a single payment.

Will be interesting to see how it goes, but at this point I'm not impressed with 2/5 going into arrears without a single payment.

noodles
15-05-2015, 06:06 PM
I was talking to the Money3 (MNY.AX) CEO back in March. Money3 are the last resort for many Australians. He basically said that some people will simply not pay (for whatever reason). For Money3, they will not do business with them again. They make their money from return customers of whom they have a track record.

I wonder if the same applies to Hamoney? I.e. Harmoney need to weed out the bad borrowers in the first couple of years of operation. It won't be until then that Harmoney starts producing better returns for it's borrowees?

winner69
15-05-2015, 06:23 PM
Update for anyone interested, I put in $500 for a test and split it across a D1, E2, 2xE3, and and E4. To date I've had payments on three of them but the E2 and an E3 have already gone into arrears without a single payment.

Will be interesting to see how it goes, but at this point I'm not impressed with 2/5 going into arrears without a single payment.

Perils of being a greedy money lender?

Puggy
15-05-2015, 09:48 PM
Perils of being a greedy money lender?

No doubt. Could just be a couple of bad deals, and who knows, maybe they'll pay, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone with a broader investment how its going.

Beagle
16-05-2015, 08:06 AM
People considering this would be wise to do some serious research on default rates in other operations run around the world.

Google p2p lending and p2p lending default rates and have a really good read on what's available on the net. What I have read concerns me.
Identity fraud when you remove the person to person loan application process of normal consumer financial channels is higher...its easier to commit fraud with documents scanned and sent by e.mail.
Just because Harmoney says the default rate is projected at a certain percentage doesn't mean it will be...think about all the vast numbers of consumer finance companies that went under in the GFC, now factor in additional delinquencies from identity fraud that's easier in a loan application process over the internet and then join the dots. This could be anything but a harmonious experience for investors but very harmonious for fraudsters.
I rate this thing as a speculative experimental form of investment, only after about three years will we really know what the true default and fraud rate is. I think there's enough early anecdotal evidence to put a prudent investor on alert but please keep your experience stories coming as only by sharing do we learn how this thing is going and I take an interest because of HNZ's investment through this channel.

Soolaimon
16-05-2015, 08:19 AM
No doubt. Could just be a couple of bad deals, and who knows, maybe they'll pay, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone with a broader investment how its going.
I have 10k invested over around 140 loans and so far no defaults. Most of my loans are around the C1 to D4 range with a few more across the range. Nearly all 36 months. The arrears are fairly steady at $20-$35 and have been since I started back in Oct. There was a couple of months there when I was concerned about their web site but for the last 3 weeks it now seems ok. I withdrew $500 net profit 2 weeks ago and that was paid out in 1 day. There have been 12 loans paid off ( 2 with a small net loss to me) and I have re-invested them. Overall, I am happy with the performance at this stage and will probably increase my holdings.

noodles
16-05-2015, 08:46 AM
People considering this would be wise to do some serious research on default rates in other operations run around the world.

Google p2p lending and p2p lending default rates and have a really good read on what's available on the net. What I have read concerns me.
Identity fraud when you remove the person to person loan application process of normal consumer financial channels is higher...its easier to commit fraud with documents scanned and sent by e.mail.
Just because Harmoney says the default rate is projected at a certain percentage doesn't mean it will be...think about all the vast numbers of consumer finance companies that went under in the GFC, now factor in additional delinquencies from identity fraud that's easier in a loan application process over the internet and then join the dots. This could be anything but a harmonious experience for investors but very harmonious for fraudsters.
I rate this thing as a speculative experimental form of investment, only after about three years will we really know what the true default and fraud rate is. I think there's enough early anecdotal evidence to put a prudent investor on alert but please keep your experience stories coming as only by sharing do we learn how this thing is going and I take an interest because of HNZ's investment through this channel.
Roger,
I want to challenge your assumption that p2p would have a greater fraud rate. If you want a loan through any NZ banks, you would do it on-line. Are you suggesting that banks have more checks in place or perhaps fraudsters would rather target Harmoney than a major bank?

Here is a NZ view:
http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/70391/gareth-vaughan-says-p2p-lending-exciting-financial-services-revolution-needs-be

I guess lenders are taking part in a bit of an experiment at this stage. It will take a couple before we know default rates at Harmoney.

percy
16-05-2015, 09:11 PM
Roger,
I want to challenge your assumption that p2p would have a greater fraud rate. If you want a loan through any NZ banks, you would do it on-line. Are you suggesting that banks have more checks in place or perhaps fraudsters would rather target Harmoney than a major bank?

Here is a NZ view:
http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/70391/gareth-vaughan-says-p2p-lending-exciting-financial-services-revolution-needs-be

I guess lenders are taking part in a bit of an experiment at this stage. It will take a couple before we know default rates at Harmoney.

Thanks for posting the link to the very interesting article.

scottwalshnz
17-05-2015, 10:43 AM
No doubt. Could just be a couple of bad deals, and who knows, maybe they'll pay, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone with a broader investment how its going.

I've put in 10k over 400+ loans, mostly D and E. It's always about $10-40 in arrears, no defaults yet (but expect some to occur). Interest returned is trending towards where it should be.
From what I've read, with P2P lending you should be targeting highly diversified to ensure the forecasted percentages pan out, 400+ loans is a typically advised.

If you only hold a small number of loans, a couple of bad deals will significantly skew default rates for a loan portfolio.

777
20-05-2015, 11:01 AM
Is anyone planning on deducting the service charge from the interest earned for your tax return. If so how are you going to work it out. The tax certificate is now available but the service charge is not included.

Harvey Specter
20-05-2015, 11:09 AM
Is anyone planning on deducting the service charge from the interest earned for your tax return. If so how are you going to work it out. The tax certificate is now available but the service charge is not included.I invest via a company and will be claiming it as a cost of doing business. The tax certificate only shows interest and tax per tax regulations.

Did anyone have any write offs during the year and if so, how are you treating them. I didn't in 2015 but have in 2016 and will almost certainly be claiming a bad debt deduction - I invest via a company and have over 100 loans so consider it part of the companies business (note the company is an investment company so investments is its business). Note: this was discussed earlier in the thread between Roger and me (I think) so probably best go back and read if you want general info on it.

Beagle
20-05-2015, 05:29 PM
Roger,
I want to challenge your assumption that p2p would have a greater fraud rate. If you want a loan through any NZ banks, you would do it on-line. Are you suggesting that banks have more checks in place or perhaps fraudsters would rather target Harmoney than a major bank?

Here is a NZ view:
http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/70391/gareth-vaughan-says-p2p-lending-exciting-financial-services-revolution-needs-be

I guess lenders are taking part in a bit of an experiment at this stage. It will take a couple before we know default rates at Harmoney.

Noodles, Yes you can certainly apply for a loan through a bank online but usually they're in a better position to do an identity check on you, (existing customer) and if you're not you'll find they've toughened up on new customers. Usually they want to see two original forms of identity in person to open a bank account, one a photo I.D. like vehicle licence and one a utilities bill for address verification, can't see why it would be different for new lending customers, so original documents in person is the key here to open a new account.

In years gone by it was easier, now they want to see things like a copy of your inland revenue assessments to confirm income...are Harmoney that thorough and do they want to see original identity documents in person ? Do they have access to your bank records or do they just ask for evidence of income, identity and bank statements to be scanned and sent via e.mail, in which case its not impossible to alter documents before scanning them.

The Jury is out on default rates and what they claim will be the average is something I'm suggesting is little more than just an outright guess and of course they are commercially motivated to guess on the light side so its hardly an independent estimate is it ! Do they guarantee those default rates and is there any comeback against Harmoney if they're wildly inaccurate...No, I didn't think so, no warranty that their representation in this regard is in any way reasonable means you have to treat it with a grain of salt. I'm "guessing" in your mind and others that makes me a real sceptic :)

Markymarknz
20-05-2015, 06:29 PM
Noodles, Yes you can certainly apply for a loan through a bank online but usually they're in a better position to do an identity check on you, (existing customer) and if you're not you'll find they've toughened up on new customers. Usually they want to see two original forms of identity in person to open a bank account, one a photo I.D. like vehicle licence and one a utilities bill for address verification, can't see why it would be different for new lending customers, so original documents in person is the key here to open a new account.

In years gone by it was easier, now they want to see things like a copy of your inland revenue assessments to confirm income...are Harmoney that thorough and do they want to see original identity documents in person ? Do they have access to your bank records or do they just ask for evidence of income, identity and bank statements to be scanned and sent via e.mail, in which case its not impossible to alter documents before scanning them.

The Jury is out on default rates and what they claim will be the average is something I'm suggesting is little more than just an outright guess and of course they are commercially motivated to guess on the light side so its hardly an independent estimate is it ! Do they guarantee those default rates and is there any comeback against Harmoney if they're wildly inaccurate...No, I didn't think so, no warranty that their representation in this regard is in any way reasonable means you have to treat it with a grain of salt. I'm "guessing" in your mind and others that makes me a real sceptic :)

I signed up for harmoney and I recall being very impressed with the thoroughness of the online application process. I needed to have a webcam and it used facial recognition to compare me with my drivers license.

ratkin
20-05-2015, 08:00 PM
Mine are all A B and C not even a late payment yet, but it has only been two months

Beagle
21-05-2015, 08:05 AM
I signed up for harmoney and I recall being very impressed with the thoroughness of the online application process. I needed to have a webcam and it used facial recognition to compare me with my drivers license.

That's good but unfortunately fake drivers licences are a dime a dozen from any counterfeiter in China and many other countries. I'd like to know what other identification processes they used and how they verified your income, (assuming you applied for a loan rather than being an investor).


Mine are all A B and C not even a late payment yet, but it has only been two months

That's indeed a good sign but as you say its early days.

Markymarknz
21-05-2015, 08:36 AM
That's good but unfortunately fake drivers licences are a dime a dozen from any counterfeiter in China and many other countries. I'd like to know what other identification processes they used and how they verified your income, (assuming you applied for a loan rather than being an investor).



That's indeed a good sign but as you say its early days.

Yeh good point I was applying as an investor so unsure how the loan side works. Just had a look on the website and it looks like you have to provide recent banking records and employment details. I assume these details must be able to provide some level of robustness in terms of verification...

https://www.harmoney.com/how-it-works/borrower-faq

I invested a very small sum and have not had any defaults or late payments to date (been around 6 months)

Kees
21-05-2015, 12:53 PM
Same here "I invested a very small sum and have not had any defaults or late payments to date (been around 6 months) "
all good so far.

scottwalshnz
21-05-2015, 10:01 PM
Is anyone planning on deducting the service charge from the interest earned for your tax return. If so how are you going to work it out. The tax certificate is now available but the service charge is not included.

I'm planning to. I emailed them, and they promptly returned a detailed activity report for the FY15.

toast2success
22-05-2015, 08:50 AM
I had a breif look over their site and have a question ...how do you get your money back into your hand ? i.e not just into your Harmoney account but how do you as the investor withdraw your money from Harmoney ? Do they impose any restrictions on when and how this may be done ?

777
22-05-2015, 09:05 AM
I had a breif look over their site and have a question ...how do you get your money back into your hand ? i.e not just into your Harmoney account but how do you as the investor withdraw your money from Harmoney ? Do they impose any restrictions on when and how this may be done ?


There is a "withdraw funds" button.

777
22-05-2015, 09:05 AM
I'm planning to. I emailed them, and they promptly returned a detailed activity report for the FY15.

Yes I got the same.

luigi
09-06-2015, 09:10 AM
Interesting study that might be useful when looking at loan applications on Harmoney.

"The words people use say a lot about their personalities, emotions, and thinking. And the ones they use when asking to borrow money, it turns out, also says a lot about whether they are likely to pay others back."

http://qz.com/420576/the-words-people-use-when-asking-to-borrow-money-can-foretell-whether-theyll-pay-you-back/

winner69
09-06-2015, 10:19 AM
Interesting study that might be useful when looking at loan applications on Harmoney.

"The words people use say a lot about their personalities, emotions, and thinking. And the ones they use when asking to borrow money, it turns out, also says a lot about whether they are likely to pay others back."

http://qz.com/420576/the-words-people-use-when-asking-to-borrow-money-can-foretell-whether-theyll-pay-you-back/

Hi luigi

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting

Bless you mate

kiora
10-06-2015, 05:03 AM
A Study:Pretty good returns so far
http://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/75849/elizabeth-kerr-responds-being-called-hypocrite-updates-us-her-experiment-and

Harvey Specter
10-06-2015, 08:22 AM
A Study:Pretty good returns so far
http://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/75849/elizabeth-kerr-responds-being-called-hypocrite-updates-us-her-experiment-andShe really is doing it wrong. Mistakes:

- depositing all up front, not drip feeding in
- not going in every day to review the new loans

I dont remember the graph at the bottom of this page before: https://www.harmoney.com/investors/loan-performance

Basically more than half of the defaults are expected to occur in the first 10 months which agrees with this : http://www.lendacademy.com/the-difference-between-seasoned-and-total-returns-on-prosper/

Most of my investing was done 10 months ago, most towards the higher risk end (though one was a B3!) and I have had less than 2% default. If I double this and take if off the forecast return, I should be earning over 15% which is quite good.

Harvey Specter
06-07-2015, 10:50 AM
Is anyone else seeing their amount in arrears increasing compared to normal? Will need to do some calcs to see if it is an increase or just because my loan balance is increasing (appears to be the former but haven't confirmed).

Have notice a lot more refinancing coming though in the loans (ie. paying off an existing Harmoney loan and adding a few more $ into a new loan). Good payment histories but doens't give a good impression if you are having budgeting issues that early on in a loan.

Still having issues with the login - they should have been able to sort it out by now.

newtrader
06-07-2015, 11:21 AM
The refinancing/rewriting is concerning as in investor as the principal is released back to me (less service fees); needing to reinvest again or risk a large balance of funds building up and earning no interest.

They have been operating for almost a 1 year now, Harmoney should start releasing some performance information so investors can see how they are tracking compared to their forecast defaults.


Is anyone else seeing their amount in arrears increasing compared to normal? Will need to do some calcs to see if it is an increase or just because my loan balance is increasing (appears to be the former but haven't confirmed).

Have notice a lot more refinancing coming though in the loans (ie. paying off an existing Harmoney loan and adding a few more $ into a new loan). Good payment histories but doens't give a good impression if you are having budgeting issues that early on in a loan.

Still having issues with the login - they should have been able to sort it out by now.

Harvey Specter
06-07-2015, 11:44 AM
The refinancing/rewriting is concerning as in investor as the principal is released back to me (less service fees); needing to reinvest again or risk a large balance of funds building up and earning no interest.

They have been operating for almost a 1 year now, Harmoney should start releasing some performance information so investors can see how they are tracking compared to their forecast defaults.Started in September-ish so not a full year yet. Would be good to see some stats. In the US, they expect most defaults to be in the first 10m of the loan so old loans should be more stable now.

777
06-07-2015, 12:29 PM
Out of 153 loans, I have had 21 repaid in full. Effective interest rates on these has been OK with the worst one being about 7.24%. I think any loan repaid in the first 6 months should have an adjustment to the 1.25% fee on the principal.

3 loans are in arrears for more than a month. Often the arrears are just short term.

Getting logged out all the time annoys me. The informed me a new update of the site is coming up so hope that improves things.

Harvey Specter
06-07-2015, 01:01 PM
Out of 153 loans, I have had 21 repaid in full. Effective interest rates on these has been OK with the worst one being about 7.24%.How do you work this out (easily). With no export function, the pages you can cut and paste into excel dont have enough info to calculate this. Do you manual keep a spreadsheet with details of all loans. Must get tiresome with over 153 and growing(?).

Mort
06-07-2015, 01:20 PM
Yes my arrears have nearly doubled in the last month & I'm only reinvesting returned P&I at present.
The refinancing has to be due to a Harmoney initiative i.e.mailout etc?? There have been too many to be anything else, I've had 12% of loans paid off early.

Is anyone else seeing their amount in arrears increasing compared to normal? Will need to do some calcs to see if it is an increase or just because my loan balance is increasing (appears to be the former but haven't confirmed).

Have notice a lot more refinancing coming though in the loans (ie. paying off an existing Harmoney loan and adding a few more $ into a new loan). Good payment histories but doens't give a good impression if you are having budgeting issues that early on in a loan.

Still having issues with the login - they should have been able to sort it out by now.

Mort
06-07-2015, 01:24 PM
How do you work this out (easily). With no export function, the pages you can cut and paste into excel dont have enough info to calculate this. Do you manual keep a spreadsheet with details of all loans. Must get tiresome with over 153 and growing(?).

Harmoney will supply you a full transaction file, you can then pull data from a particular loan. Also on your other post, no service fees is charged on rewrites.

777
06-07-2015, 02:09 PM
How do you work this out (easily). With no export function, the pages you can cut and paste into excel dont have enough info to calculate this. Do you manual keep a spreadsheet with details of all loans. Must get tiresome with over 153 and growing(?).

I do keep a spreadsheet and yes it is a bit time consuming but I wanted to be able to reconcile everything as my faith in their site was not great.

However if you click on the loan it gives you the date issued and the date repaid along with the gross interest received. Take the gross and reduce it by the tax paid and the 1.25% of the gross interest and 1.25% of the original loan and you have the net result.Gross it back up. Simple to annualise it from the number of days invested.

PennyPicker
07-07-2015, 10:11 AM
Is anyone else seeing their amount in arrears increasing compared to normal?
Yes, it's been creeping up over the past few weeks and not reducing.


Still having issues with the login - they should have been able to sort it out by now.
It may be unrelated, but they have a (Chrome) bug in the web site that isn't handling cookie time-outs correctly. If you don't logout but close the browser window the active cookie is left behind. Next time you visit the site from that PC (browser) the menu indicates you can view your Dashboard (suggesting you're still logged in), but clicking this flicks back to the login page. Clicking Logout before trying to Login works around this.

They have a number of basic web app bugs in the login page that are quite annoying and their support team don't seem to respond on these. They're a two minute fix and would really improve the user experience;

1. The email field should 'toLower' and trim blanks before trying to validate the input value. Auto-complete keyboards on mobile devices will often leave a trailing space (e.g. Swiftkey on Android) and this causes the email validation to fail.
2. The username/email field should probably gain focus automatically when the login page loads. This would reduce the number of clicks the user has to complete in order to log in.
3. Press 'enter' while the username/email field has focus should only trigger the login button if the password field has a value, otherwise it should put focus to the password field.

These are basic functional test failures that give me some raise for concern that if these aren't working correctly, what else, that's more complex, is not being tested and fixed...?

Sorry, slightly on a soap box, but really, these are basic web dev issues that are 'low risk' but make the login UX better. Which I guess is what they want?

Harvey Specter
07-07-2015, 11:00 AM
They are meant to be building a second version of the site (which is now overdue) so I wonder if it is more a case of not wanting to spend time fixing something that will be fixed any day. Depends I guess on if they will be reusing existing code or if its a complete rebuild.

Soolaimon
07-07-2015, 03:42 PM
Arrears are slowly growing also. Another thing I am finding is that the 36 month loans are becoming fewer in the marketplace. 24 out of 120 loans paid off. I have stopped reinvesting in the meantime but keep reviewing the situation.

humvee
11-07-2015, 08:18 PM
I seem to have fair few in arrears at the moment some by several months. but haven't received any Overdue Fees at all. Has anyone received any?

humvee
11-07-2015, 08:26 PM
Also any one had anything Written Off? What is the criteria for this to happen?

Puggy
12-07-2015, 09:17 AM
I only dropped $500 in there to test the water and spread this across 5 loans, D1, E2, E3, E3, E4. An E2 and E3 went into Arrears without seeing a single payment, and the other E3 saw two payments before going into Arrears. No sign of anything being written off, or any communication as to what is happening to try and recoup the money.

Soolaimon
12-07-2015, 10:58 AM
I seem to have fair few in arrears at the moment some by several months. but haven't received any Overdue Fees at all. Has anyone received any?

I recieved 44 cents way back about Nov and nothing since even though some arrears are 2 to 3 month old.

humvee
18-07-2015, 11:26 PM
Has anyone noticed these additions to the FAQ (they were not there when I joined)

WHAT IS A LOAN REWRITE?
In short, it means that the borrower has requested to increase the amount they have borrowed.
Harmoney offers this option to creditworthy borrowers who have demonstrated a reliable repayment record for a minimum of three months, allowing borrowers to extend their loan amount up to their maximum approved limit.

HOW DOES A REWRITE WORK?
When borrowers apply to top up their loans, the loan contract terms must be changed, therefore the original contract must be paid out and the new loan contract must be issued. For this reason, borrowers need to have the new loan total (original loan outstanding amount + top up amount + platform fee) fully funded by investors.
Once the new loan total is funded, the outstanding balance of the original loan is paid back to investors, and the borrower receives the top up amount. The original loan is then considered repaid and closed.
In the event that a rewrite does not reach full funding on the marketplace, the borrowers original loan continues without change.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A LOAN I HAVE INVESTED IN IS REWRITTEN?
You will be repaid the outstanding principal and interest accrued and unpaid up to the date of the re-write, less the service fee. The repaid funds will be available in your account for withdrawal or reinvestment.

humvee
18-07-2015, 11:43 PM
I had noticed the increasing number of rewrites showing up in the market place and also the increasing number of early repayments. I suspected this was what was happening but could not be sure.


It seems harmoney has structured this to maximize the service fees that they can charge and are effectively double dipping. Why (other then increasing service fees charged) is a top up to a loan done as a full repayment and a new loan and not as a top up (or additional loan)?


Many of the rewrites Im seeing on the markets have a repayment history of as little as 3 months. strike this a few times and your now paying a service fee of 5% per annum instead of the 0.25%-0.42% per annum a 3 to 5 year would have resulted in.

777
19-07-2015, 10:57 AM
I don't invest in rewrites because those reasons humvee. I actually think any loan repaid early should not have the 1.25% deducted or that it should be a penalty fee paid by the borrower for option of early repayment. As a lender I don't have the option of demanding early repayment.

It would be good to get some communication on the state of loans in arrears.

Puggy
19-07-2015, 11:23 AM
Well one of my E3's in arrears has now come out of Arrears, however no sign of any Overdue income.

Judging on my experience and reading posts here it seems like Harmoney is skewed quite heavily towards Borrowers, and of course, Harmoney themselves, with Investors getting what they're given and liking it...

humvee
19-07-2015, 02:24 PM
I don't invest in rewrites because those reasons humvee. I actually think any loan repaid early should not have the 1.25% deducted or that it should be a penalty fee paid by the borrower for option of early repayment. As a lender I don't have the option of demanding early repayment.

It would be good to get some communication on the state of loans in arrears.

Not investing in rewrites wont help you infact rewrites might be less likely to get the loan size increased vs a 1st loan.

reading between the lines in some of the borrowers information/FAQ's it sounds like In many cases harmoney is pre approving the borrower for more money then they originally asked for - so they can increase their loan at a later date.

If this is happening this information should be shown in the information that is available to the lenders.

777
19-07-2015, 03:08 PM
100% correct humvee. My mistake.

Regarding the rewrites, the repayment should not happen. They should just take out a extra loan to cover the extra borrowing.

777
20-07-2015, 08:35 AM
I emailed them and the answer was "rewrites are an important part of our business".

They expect rewrites to be 25% of the average investor's portfolio.

My repayments are around 20% of loans at present. No way of telling if they are repaid due rewrites or just the borrower repaying as they don't need the loan any longer.

newtrader
20-07-2015, 08:42 AM
Lending Club (the business model which I believe Harmoney replicates) has a policy to lessen the impact of early repayments and rewrites/refinancing for lenders/investors in regards to the service fee.

Retrieved from https://www.lendingclub.com/public/rates-and-fees.action


When a borrower prepays their loan (pays off all or part of their loan earlier than the contractual due date) during the first 12 months after a Note is issued, we limit the size of the service fee charged to investors in Notes corresponding to that loan in order to protect their returns. For those first 12 months, an investor will never pay a monthly service fee greater than 1% of the contractual monthly payment amount due to such investor. For example, if the contractual monthly payment amount due to an investor is $300 and a prepayment of $4,000 is distributed to the investor's account, he or she would only be charged a service fee of $3 (1% of $300) that month.


Would like to see Harmoney adopt a similar policy.

777
20-07-2015, 08:59 AM
May be you could suggest that to them.

humvee
23-07-2015, 12:41 AM
I wonder if we will get some site improvements
"
Well be back soon!

Sorry for the inconvenience but were performing some maintenance at the moment, well be back online shortly!

Team Harmoney"

777
30-07-2015, 05:23 PM
http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/8f150ab1/harmoney-founder-and-ceo-neil-roberts-leaves-board.html

unhuman
31-07-2015, 11:38 AM
The new dashboard preview is avaliable, not much is avaliable yet but it does look like they will include an export function.

humvee
31-07-2015, 04:58 PM
The new dashboard preview is avaliable, not much is avaliable yet but it does look like they will include an export function.


Where do I find this preview?

Maybe ive missed ot because im on a cellphone.

humvee
31-07-2015, 05:19 PM
There seems to be huge changes to harmoney management in many areas.

Comparing here
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mh_KfQ6_c9IJ:https://www.harmoney.com/about-us+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz&client=ms-android-samsung

To here
https://www.harmoney.com/about-us

Seems to to indicate changes with neil as well as

CTO/CIO
marketing
general manager

And prob more but it is a little hard to compare from a cellphone.

unhuman
01-08-2015, 12:53 PM
Where do I find this preview?

Maybe ive missed ot because im on a cellphone.

In the lefthand sidebar where the options for marketplace, investments etc are. There is now an option for the new dashboard preview.

Harvey Specter
02-08-2015, 08:00 AM
In the lefthand sidebar where the options for marketplace, investments etc are. There is now an option for the new dashboard preview.Dont rely on it though - Full of holes. I think the 'interest received' was actually referring to total receipts. payments remaining I had some in the negative and some in single digits even though most of the loan still outstanding. On the right track though.

unhuman
02-08-2015, 08:40 PM
No I use my own spreadsheets.

Onion
04-08-2015, 09:05 PM
I think the flow of new loans is pretty weak at present. I have had a few loans fully paid off so want to reinvest but the pickings are thin. I have used a strategy of not investing when income is more than 10% of the loan and just about all of them fit in that category now; I think a higher proportion than earlier on.

Markymarknz
05-08-2015, 09:28 AM
I think the flow of new loans is pretty weak at present. I have had a few loans fully paid off so want to reinvest but the pickings are thin. I have used a strategy of not investing when income is more than 10% of the loan and just about all of them fit in that category now; I think a higher proportion than earlier on.

Your right, I can only see four loans available to loan to...

Harvey Specter
06-08-2015, 08:27 AM
Your right, I can only see four loans available to loan to...Really struggling. Only one this morning and it only have 7 notes free.

I dont have much invested but basically need to buy 1 or 2 notes each day. I really do notice the reduced selection recently and just before that, they were increasing supply through refinances which are starting to slow now (though 1 yesterday refinanced after only 3 payment!).

Markymarknz
06-08-2015, 08:51 AM
Yesterday I logged in and saw a grade A loan request and I quickly invested my surplus, they seem to disappear like hot cakes!

What I thought would be handy is an auto reinvest, kind of like quick invest but it just does it automatically when you have enough cash available for a new note.

Harvey Specter
06-08-2015, 10:11 AM
They've just dumped 20 new loans in so not to bad - will see how quickly they get snapped up.

DoctorG
06-08-2015, 12:17 PM
I want to try Harmoney and have just tried to credit money and allow it to be direct debited, but I think I am going to have to wait three days for funds to clear before I can start.

it all seems to good to be true, however I guess the reality will sink in when the defaults start happening

unhuman
06-08-2015, 02:24 PM
Harmoney works best drip feeding a small amount in each week, good luck transferring in large one off amounts.

Those 20 loans from this morning are gone, only 2 now showing.

Harvey Specter
06-08-2015, 02:44 PM
I want to try Harmoney and have just tried to credit money and allow it to be direct debited, but I think I am going to have to wait three days for funds to clear before I can start.

it all seems to good to be true, however I guess the reality will sink in when the defaults start happeningI find the direct transfer normally goes through the next day but the DD takes a few.

Defaults are the big unknown. I have had a few but the have been more than compensated. Time will tell if thats the still the case.


Harmoney works best drip feeding a small amount in each week, good luck transferring in large one off amounts.Agree. Only put in a bit at a time as you want to be fully invested as soon as and dont want to be forced to take loans you dont want to. If you dont want an A and B, you are currently out of luck but there was was a time when there were no A going though. The other annoying thing is you have no idea when they will they will upload more loans so unless you have time to check a few times a day, you may miss your opportunity.

DoctorG
08-08-2015, 02:14 AM
Whats the best strategy?
I am going to invest in each loan .
I started at 4 notes for each but have now switched down to one note, but I think it will take too long , I may have to increase.
On average how many loans come up for investment per week?
If I invest in each new loan for 60mnths I will be visiting the website a lot.
Anyway I hopes it better tgan my forrays into FOREX and Canadian oik juniors.
My best investment has been the house I bought.

Bjauck
09-08-2015, 10:38 AM
...My best investment has been the house I bought.
True - especially if you have a house in Auckland. How long Auckland house price rises will continue to exceed historical averages is uncertain.

Your returns from Harmoney are taxed at your marginal income tax rate, whereas with real estate all your capital appreciation and, if you are the owner-occupier, the benefits of being an owner-occupier are tax-free. With Harmoney all the gross interest is taxed, then you still need to pay the service charges and deduct from your returns any defaults, so you could end up paying more than 33% tax during the course of the year on your actual net investment returns. In addition to the uncertainty of actual default rates, especially as the economy comes in for tougher times.

whitt
09-08-2015, 10:13 PM
Whats the best strategy?
I am going to invest in each loan .
I started at 4 notes for each but have now switched down to one note, but I think it will take too long , I may have to increase.
On average how many loans come up for investment per week?
.

This person has a good question.
Several of you guys have been using Harmoney for some time now. What is some good strategies?
What has worked well so far?
Any good rules you have found when using Harmoney?

Soolaimon
10-08-2015, 10:15 AM
This person has a good question.
Several of you guys have been using Harmoney for some time now. What is some good strategies?
What has worked well so far?
Any good rules you have found when using Harmoney?
I have been investing now for 11 months, I started with 1 or 2 notes per loan, now I invest 6 per loan. Reason being that it becomes quite a lot of work re-investing paid off loans and if one stuck to 1s and 2s you would have a lot of loans and after a few months it would require constant attention to keep all your money "active". I have invested in 181 loans and 43 of them have been paid back in full, the return from these is not that good but still satisfactory. Harmoney advised me some months ago that the expected early payment of loans was 28%. Looks like that figure could be a bit light.
My strategy has been to concentrate on 36 month loans (95%) not too many A's or F's. Probably C and D loans weighted. Borrower's monthly payments must not exceed 10% of income. So far I have had no write offs, although there are a couple of arrears that are 2 months old. Going back to the first 2 months, I calculated a gross return of plus 16% on those loans, so if this continues one can stand a write off or two.
Over all, happy with them now that most off the bugs seem to be sorted on the website.

beetills
10-08-2015, 02:52 PM
Had a letter this morning telling me that i could borrow up to 35k for a new car,
Pretty obvious to me that these letters must go out willy nilly as i have been unemployed/able for 12 months,so if i do take up the offer make sure you investors out there keep an eye out.

unhuman
10-08-2015, 03:47 PM
This person has a good question.
Several of you guys have been using Harmoney for some time now. What is some good strategies?
What has worked well so far?
Any good rules you have found when using Harmoney?

I am weighted 90% in A & B loans.

So far I haven't had any paid off in full early and no defaults.

Things are just ticking along as they should.

I have stayed away from any loans I wouldn't take out myself, e.g. weddings, car loans etc.

Only debt consolidation, business loans, home improvements.

Harvey Specter
10-08-2015, 07:46 PM
I am weighted 90% in A & B loans.What is the quoted annualised return on that?

I think I have had 5 write offs from about 250 loans. about 40 in arrears and 50 paid off early. Annualised return is apparently over 20% but even after writeoffs, I am hoping for more than 15%. Note: of the write offs - a B, D E and 2 F's.

unhuman
11-08-2015, 12:31 PM
13.18% according to the dashboard.

Harvey Specter
11-08-2015, 02:44 PM
13.18% according to the dashboard.Better than the bank.

WingingIt
11-08-2015, 04:12 PM
Saw an article in the print edition of Dominion Post today about ComCom investigating Harmoney regarding their fees. Cant seem to find it online though

winner69
11-08-2015, 04:21 PM
Saw an article in the print edition of Dominion Post today about ComCom investigating Harmoney regarding their fees. Cant seem to find it online though


http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/70912502/harmoney-fees-scrutinised-by-consumer-watchdog

whitt
11-08-2015, 06:34 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/70912502/harmoney-fees-scrutinised-by-consumer-watchdog
The fees sound ok to me and quite reasonable.

rsmckee
14-08-2015, 07:10 PM
been with Harmoney for a few months and have worked a A to D pattern to try and give me a net return (after tax and fees ) of 12 - 13 %.
Bit difficult as anything I have taken over 20% goes into arrears. Also fin it frustrating as I am trying to load over $250K and it takes ages.

whitt
16-08-2015, 09:32 PM
Does anybody who has used Harmoney long term know if they update the "expected default rate" at any point? Surely by now they will have some actual default rates they could use to update ones quoted in Marketplace

rsmckee
17-08-2015, 08:39 AM
Just a fair update here - all my 'defaults' are now active and up to date - so I will say that it appears that harmony puts in effort to keep defaults to a minimum. Good point from Whitt as I would also like to know if the 'projected' default ratio is updated.

Harvey Specter
17-08-2015, 08:39 AM
Does anybody who has used Harmoney long term know if they update the "expected default rate" at any point? Surely by now they will have some actual default rates they could use to update ones quoted in MarketplaceIts only been gong a year (not quite?) and the shortest loans are 3 years. From the US sites, they expect most of the defaults to be in the first year but until you have actual data, they cant just extrapolate the same rate of default or assume a drop off. Having said that, it would be interesting to know how it is tracking to their models.

humvee
17-08-2015, 08:38 PM
Does anybody who has used Harmoney long term know if they update the "expected default rate" at any point? Surely by now they will have some actual default rates they could use to update ones quoted in Marketplace

Has anyone got any defaults yet - i mean actual defaults not just long term arrears?
If so there are a few things i would be interested to know.

What grade were they?

How many months in did they default?

Did they make any repayments before they defaulted.

How far in arrears does a loan need to be before harmoney considers them a default?

Puggy
18-08-2015, 05:51 PM
Has anyone got any defaults yet - i mean actual defaults not just long term arrears?

Not yet, but I've currently got two in arrears, one E3 which was Issued on 07-04-2015 and never had a single payment, and an E2 Issued on 02-04-2015 which had a couple of payments before going into Arrears. So my oldest is in arrears for at least 4 months worth of payments.

Biggest issue for me is that there's no communications about what action is being taken. Might be nice to have some sort of 'Debt Recovery' type status that says 'Contacting Debtor' or 'Payment Plan Arranged' or something...

axe
18-08-2015, 06:08 PM
21 Loans so far so only a small sample. No defaults. A couple of loans in and out of arrears.
People seem more likely to pay their loans off as there are no penalties for doing so ( I think this is a great thing) than default.

Corleone
20-08-2015, 01:45 PM
I have read this with great interest (excuse pun). Seems the soon to be released squirrel P2P model will iron out some of the negatives mentioned in this thread. I'll be following both closely. An added incentive for these is I am a registered non resident so tax on the interest would be much less.

was interested reading Roger's earlier post regarding 12 month bankruptcies for under 40K... I wonder how many student loan borrowers will see this is a more viable alternative than years of debt.

Harvey Specter
20-08-2015, 02:41 PM
I have read this with great interest (excuse pun). Seems the soon to be released squirrel P2P model will iron out some of the negatives mentioned in this thread. They're interest rates are going to be much lower. They are suggesting in the 7-9% range from memory. And while the insurance sounds good, you are paying for it by reduced interest income and if the fund drops to zero, they can withhold some of your interest to build it back up again so it is just socialising losses (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

unhuman
20-08-2015, 04:49 PM
^Yes agreed. The ability to onsell loans to third parts (something Harmoney I believe hinted at but haven't announced anything further towards) and secured loans is what I am interested in.

axe
20-08-2015, 09:26 PM
So correct me if I'm wrong, but if you wanted to borrow a small amount, say $1000 - I agree to a three year loan but I can pay it off at any time without penalty? So basically its payday lending disguised as a long term loan in order to avoid the payday regulatory problems?

https://www.harmoney.com/how-it-works/borrower-faq (exert below)
CAN I MAKE REPAYMENTS EARLY?
Yes, you can make early repayments, or even pay off the entirety of your loan early without charge. Interest is accrued on your loan daily, based on the outstanding balance; therefore paying your loan in advance means you will incur less interest.

Harvey Specter
21-08-2015, 06:07 AM
So correct me if I'm wrong, but if you wanted to borrow a small amount, say $1000 - I agree to a three year loan but I can pay it off at any time without penalty? So basically its payday lending disguised as a long term loan in order to avoid the payday regulatory problems?Yes but there is also a upfront fee to Harmoney (which is being investigated for being too high) which would disincentivise using it as a payday loan, though it may work out cheaper than some of the dodgy places.

humvee
22-08-2015, 06:40 PM
Is the Amount in Arrears total actually correct/updating currently. Mine has been exactly the same to the cent for over 2 weeks. It use to change daily.

Puggy
22-08-2015, 07:36 PM
Is the Amount in Arrears total actually correct/updating currently. Mine has been exactly the same to the cent for over 2 weeks. It use to change daily.

I think it only goes up every time there is a missed payment, so depends on how many loans you have and what their payment dates are.

whitt
22-08-2015, 08:47 PM
Ok my one month update.
System seems to work fine.
Quick invest system would be good if I could choose a few more options.
Loan rewrites/ early repayments seem unfair. Harmoney fees encourage users to repay early. However that also means they double dip on the fee. These will quickly add up and erode returns.
Add in tax rate of 33% and high returns soon drop to below 10%

Squirrel money p2p on the other hand has potential to be a suitable alternative. Slightly lower returns but less of the issues Harmoney has.

Maybe I might try both p2p

humvee
23-08-2015, 05:27 AM
I think it only goes up every time there is a missed payment, so depends on how many loans you have and what their payment dates are.

I have around 200 loans so for quite a while it ws updating almost daily. Until it just stopped changing

Soolaimon
24-08-2015, 08:34 AM
I have around 200 loans so for quite a while it ws updating almost daily. Until it just stopped changing

My arrears have not changed in the last 25 days or so. Some are more than 2 months behind. If they all (9) default, I will be down by about $500 and that will bring the net returns back to 4/5%. More communication from Harmoney would help.

777
24-08-2015, 08:38 AM
Just click on the "details" on the arrears on the dashboard page to see which loans are in arrears.

Or go to the new pages and select records. Those in arrears are highlighted in yellow.

WingingIt
01-09-2015, 12:04 PM
My arrears have not changed in the last 25 days or so. Some are more than 2 months behind. If they all (9) default, I will be down by about $500 and that will bring the net returns back to 4/5%. More communication from Harmoney would help.

Check out the dashboard preview. The old dashboard for me is one or two payments behind for the ones in arrears

Harvey Specter
01-09-2015, 12:58 PM
I have pretty much lost all faith in the accuracy of their reports. I have loans from November which still show 36 monthly payments due even though payments have been received (and thats just one issue I have spotted, there are others aswell).

scottwalshnz
01-09-2015, 10:14 PM
I have pretty much lost all faith in the accuracy of their reports. I have loans from November which still show 36 monthly payments due even though payments have been received (and thats just one issue I have spotted, there are others aswell).

In the new portal I have orders that say they are running at 78% pa return...

Puggy
02-09-2015, 04:36 PM
I find it quite interesting that they have just about all the numbers on the front of their new dashboard with the exception of Arrears, which you have to go a couple of clicks into the site to be able to see.

WingingIt
03-09-2015, 11:26 AM
In the new portal I have orders that say they are running at 78% pa return...

Hey mate where are you finding returns in the new portal?

Soolaimon
03-09-2015, 12:00 PM
Hey mate where are you finding returns in the new portal?
If it is orders you are talking about, maybe it is that they are 78% filled ???

Soolaimon
03-09-2015, 12:00 PM
Hey mate where are you finding returns in the new portal?
If it is orders you are talking about, maybe it is that they are 78% filled ???

Soolaimon
03-09-2015, 12:01 PM
Hey mate where are you finding returns in the new portal?
If it is orders you are talking about, maybe it is that they are 78% filled ???

WingingIt
03-09-2015, 01:56 PM
If it is orders you are talking about, maybe it is that they are 78% filled ???

Didnt quite read his post properly, but I'm talking about your investment performance. In the current/old dashboard you go Account Summary then Performance and it gives you an Annualised return figure. Cant find this anywhere in the new dashboard, maybe I read its not quite finished yet

whitt
05-09-2015, 09:37 AM
My annualised figure says 17.91%.
Would be nice if this continues.

scottwalshnz
05-09-2015, 10:05 AM
Hey mate where are you finding returns in the new portal?

Under market place you can go into past orders and see return per order. Although I don't trust the numbers given my results.
Like you, I haven't found a total annual return in the new portal.

Puggy
07-09-2015, 06:58 PM
Looks like they finally written off one of the two loans I had that were in arrears. Loan was taken out on April 7th 2015, never saw a single payment, and was written off today.

I wonder if they have a standard process around how many times they need to contact or how long they wait to write it off, and if we're getting to a point where we're x months after the service launched and we'll start to really see what the write-off numbers look like...

WingingIt
07-09-2015, 08:54 PM
Looks like they finally written off one of the two loans I had that were in arrears. Loan was taken out on April 7th 2015, never saw a single payment, and was written off today.

I wonder if they have a standard process around how many times they need to contact or how long they wait to write it off, and if we're getting to a point where we're x months after the service launched and we'll start to really see what the write-off numbers look like...

From an email with Harmoney when I asked how the arrears process starts.

"If a loan falls into arrears we immediately begin following a defined collections process, contacting the borrower via telephone, email, and text message to request that they make their payment. Keep in mind, this is not unusual in New Zealand, as the credit bureaus do not penalise borrowers for late payments, whereas, in the US or Europe it hurts their credit record. Also, there's a 3-5 business day processing delay from the due date to when the funds post to your available cash."

Soolaimon
08-09-2015, 10:32 AM
From an email with Harmoney when I asked how the arrears process
"If a loan falls into arrears we immediately begin following a defined collections process, contacting the borrower via telephone, email, and text message to request that they make their payment. Keep in mind, this is not unusual in New Zealand, as the credit bureaus do not penalise borrowers for late payments, whereas, in the US or Europe it hurts their credit record. Also, there's a 3-5 business day processing delay from the due date to when the funds post to your available cash."

I have a couple of loans that are now 4 months since last payment and still classed as arrears.

mjplost
09-09-2015, 09:26 AM
This is the most unique (bogan) one I have seen yet7592

Harvey Specter
09-09-2015, 10:39 AM
This is the most unique (bogan) one I have seen yet7592I assume it is just the rear tyre's that need replacing after doing a few burnouts over the weekend.

I also note they seem to have fixed the continual logging out issue.

Kees
09-09-2015, 10:47 AM
This is the most unique (bogan) one I have seen yet7592

there still will be investors whom will lent on this with the high % return offered and when it fails come on here and moan about defaults .

humvee
09-09-2015, 03:08 PM
Looks like they finally written off one of the two loans I had that were in arrears. Loan was taken out on April 7th 2015, never saw a single payment, and was written off today.

I wonder if they have a standard process around how many times they need to contact or how long they wait to write it off, and if we're getting to a point where we're x months after the service launched and we'll start to really see what the write-off numbers look like...


I also Just had my first write off. Given you cannot access them once the loan is issued I try keep all the details provided when I invested. Here are the details of the written off loan for anyone interested

LAI-00010605

Borrower Details


Residential Status: Other
Income Type: Employment or Self Employed
Borrower Comments: DEBT CONSOLIDATION AND WEDDING EXPENSES
Age Band: 40-49
Marital Status: Single
NZ Region: Auckland
Time at Current Residence: 4 Years
Time at Current Employment: 5 Years
Loan Purpose: Debt Consolidation Defaults in last 6 months: 0
Enquiries in last 6 months: 2
Application Type: Individual
Monthly Income Total: 5906.12
Loan Details


Loan Submitted: 02-02-2015 at 01:11AM
Monthly Payment: $285.65
Review Status: Approved
Loan Grade: E2
Loan Type: Unsecured



RECEIVED PAYMENTS


Last Received Done on
30 Jul 2015


Last Payment Amount
$ 0.00


Payments to Date
$ 2.19


Principal
$ 0.25


Gross Interest Paid
$ 1.94


Overdue Fees Received
$ 0.00

humvee
09-09-2015, 04:21 PM
Under market place you can go into past orders and see return per order. Although I don't trust the numbers given my results.
Like you, I haven't found a total annual return in the new portal.

Take a look at this for major decrepancys between income on dashboards - Which is right?




BORROWER DETAILSBORROWER COMMENTSTHIS LOAN IS FOR HOME IMPROVEMENTS.WE NORMALLY WOULD HAVE THESE FUNDS IN OUR SAVINGS ACCOUNT BUT WE HAVE JUST HELPED OUR DAUGHTER PURCHASE HER FIRST HOME.ONLY NEED LOAN FOR 36 MONTHS.THANKYOU



LOAN PURPOSE:Home Improvements
AGE BAND:
MARITAL STATUS:Married
NZ REGION:Te Puke
RESIDENTIAL STATUS:Owned - Paying Mortgage
TIME AT RESIDENCE:4 years
TIME AT EMPLOYER:21 years




DEFAULTS LAST 6 MONTHS:0
ENQUIRIES LAST 6 MONTHS:2
INCOME TYPE:Employment or Self Employed
MONTHLY INCOME:$10,832.50
MONTHLY LOAN PAYMENT:$1,176.40

humvee
09-09-2015, 04:22 PM
Borrower Details
Residential Status: Owned - Paying Mortgage
Income Type: Employment or Self Employed
Borrower Comments: THIS LOAN IS FOR HOME IMPROVEMENTS.WE NORMALLY WOULD HAVE THESE FUNDS IN OUR SAVINGS ACCOUNT BUT WE HAVE JUST HELPED OUR DAUGHTER PURCHASE HER FIRST HOME.ONLY NEED LOAN FOR 36 MONTHS.THANKYOU
Age Band: 50-59
Marital Status: Married
NZ Region: Te Puke
Time at Current Residence: 4 Years
Time at Current Employment: 21 Years
Loan Purpose: Home Improvements
Defaults in last 6 months: 0
Enquiries in last 6 months: 2
Monthly Income Total: $15162.50



Loan Details
Loan Submitted: 09-09-2015 at 04:24AM
Application Type: Individual
Monthly Payment: $1176.4
Review Status: Approved
Loan Grade: A2 (https://www.harmoney.com/investors/risk-grades-interest-rates)
Loan Type: Unsecured

humvee
11-09-2015, 07:57 AM
Heres another where the dashboards don't match (and I have just invested using the old dashboard based of the higher income)

New Dashboard



LAI-00029655 (https://investor.harmoney.com/)
E1 24.66%
60
2.78%
$10,600
Other
0%423 notes remaining
14 days






(https://investor.harmoney.com/)BORROWER DETAILSBORROWER COMMENTSNone



LOAN PURPOSE:Other
AGE BAND:30-39
MARITAL STATUS:De Facto
NZ REGION:Auckland
RESIDENTIAL STATUS:Renting
TIME AT RESIDENCE:4 years
TIME AT EMPLOYER:10 years




DEFAULTS LAST 6 MONTHS:0
ENQUIRIES LAST 6 MONTHS:1
INCOME TYPE:Employment or Self Employed
MONTHLY INCOME:$3,899.00
MONTHLY LOAN PAYMENT:$308.92

humvee
11-09-2015, 07:59 AM
Old Dashboard

Borrower Details
Residential Status: Renting
Income Type: Employment or Self Employed
Borrower Comments: NA
Age Band: 30-39
Marital Status: De Facto
NZ Region: Auckland
Time at Current Residence: 4 Years
Time at Current Employment: 10 Years
Loan Purpose: Other
Defaults in last 6 months: 0
Enquiries in last 6 months: 1
Monthly Income Total: $5458.88



Loan Details
Loan Submitted: 09-10-2015 at 04:20AM
Application Type: Individual
Monthly Payment: $308.92
Review Status: Approved
Loan Grade: E1 (https://www.harmoney.com/investors/risk-grades-interest-rates)
Loan Type: Unsecured

Harvey Specter
11-09-2015, 08:26 AM
I found a few aswell:

LAI-00029657
LAI-00029664

In both cases, the income on the new dashboard was lower.