AIR - Air NZ.

[Baa_Baa]

Well stated Rep.

It always amazes me the number of people that remove their shoes prior to take off. They should be on for take off and landing. That is when they are most likely to need them in anger.

Interesting perspective, I doubt many air travellers get onto a plane thinking about their strategy for surviving a catastrophe, let alone whether their shoes are on and have leather soles! Reps post is thoroughly depressing, it puts me off flying altogether.

[Rep]

Interesting perspective, I doubt many air travellers get onto a plane thinking about their strategy for surviving a catastrophe, let alone whether their shoes are on and have leather soles! Reps post is thoroughly depressing, it puts me off flying altogether.

You could die of many things - air travel is outstandingly safe which lulls the populace into complacency. (Leather shoes - I mean leather uppers and closed toe footwear).

It's a bit like choosing to have the ACWY meningococcal vaccine (which isn't funded), I travel a lot to Queensland where the C Strain is uncommon but not unknown as there is a vaccination programme locally but if you did contract the C strain - there's about a 10% chance you will die, 20% will have permanent disabilities including renal and hepatic failure, loss of fingers, toes and limbs.

If you did stay at home, the W strain has been identified in 24 cases in New Zealand alone this year and had a 25% fatality rate.

[Beagle]

You could die of many things - air travel is outstandingly safe which lulls the populace into complacency. (Leather shoes - I mean leather uppers and closed toe footwear).

It's a bit like choosing to have the ACWY meningococcal vaccine (which isn't funded), I travel a lot to Queensland where the C Strain is uncommon but not unknown as there is a vaccination programme locally but if you did contract the C strain - there's about a 10% chance you will die, 20% will have permanent disabilities including renal and hepatic failure, loss of fingers, toes and limbs.

If you did stay at home, the W strain has been identified in 24 cases in New Zealand alone this year and had a 25% fatality rate.

Spot on, there's so many more important things to concern one self with https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/24/avoid-air-travel-mh17-math-risk-guide
Just 2% of deaths are transport related which means people's concerns should be focused on more appropriate area's such as their health but seeing as we're talking about transport risk it is interesting to note that per mile travelled one is 100 times more likely to die in a car accident...perhaps food for thought for those that can comfortably afford a current model 5 star safety rated vehicle but choose not too for reasons best known to themselves ? As for travelling long distances on a motorcycle...Hmmmm...

[iceman]

This video does not do what it's intended purpose is. I am sure a majority of the passengers over 40 will not even be able to understand what is actually being conveyed. Bit sloppy. I do not have a problem with it personally but I dare say a lot of their intended audience will not even know what is being said and thus they will not get the message.
That said, they need to stop the safety briefings/videos on flights full stop. No one listens, no one pays attention, and if your plane slams into the ocean or a mountainside, no amount of oxygen, crouching and covering your face, knowing where the nearest exit is, is going to help.

So true blackcap. AIR has gone too far with this one. I only realised it was a safety video when they were trying (pathetically) to put on their seatbelts. This video has nothing to do with safety and they've become totally sales focused with complete disregard for safety. Very sad. Up your game AIR

[iceman]

Spot on, there's so many more important things to concern one self with https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/24/avoid-air-travel-mh17-math-risk-guide
Just 2% of deaths are transport related which means people's concerns should be focused on more appropriate area's such as their health but seeing as we're talking about transport risk it is interesting to note that per mile travelled one is 100 times more likely to die in a car accident...perhaps food for thought for those that can comfortably afford a current model 5 star safety rated vehicle but choose not too for reasons best known to themselves ? As for travelling long distances on a motorcycle...Hmmmm...

Beagle it is great that such a small percentage of "deaths" is transport related. The industry I work in, has managed to reduce "deaths" by about 90% in the last 20 years. All due to more awareness, better technology and better responses. Just like transport. Turning it into a joke like AIR is with this video is a backward step and not the way to go.

[Beagle]

Beagle it is great that such a small percentage of "deaths" is transport related. The industry I work in, has managed to reduce "deaths" by about 90% in the last 20 years. All due to more awareness, better technology and better responses. Just like transport. Turning it into a joke like AIR is with this video is a backward step and not the way to go.

AIR for quite a while now have been trying to make entertaining safety video's as a point of difference. We've all seen the safety aspects over and over again, you either know what to do in a crisis or you panic and don't. Might as well keep them entertaining in my opinion.

[winner69]

Heaps more punters would rather watch Nickelback according to this poll

https://twitter.com/stevebiddle/status/1059900726954979328

[Joshuatree]

Ludicrous poll for entertainment purposes for people with time to waste imo.
AIR have done a great job with this one.Im 60 plus and i got it, lol.
AIR know that most people tune out to their safety vids and also think they are never going to die or are fatalistic ,regular lotto buyers lol etc .So using humour is a great way to get the message across and make things stick. Advertisers know this and good teachers do too.

[Beagle]

Ludicrous poll for entertainment purposes for people with time to waste imo.
AIR have done a great job with this one.Im 60 plus and i got it, lol.
AIR know that most people tune out to their safety vids and also think they are never going to die or are fatalistic ,regular lotto buyers lol etc .So using humour is a great way to get the message across and make things stick. Advertisers know this and good teachers do too.

+1, couldn't agree more.

[winner69]

Ludicrous poll for entertainment purposes for people with time to waste imo.
AIR have done a great job with this one.Im 60 plus and i got it, lol.
AIR know that most people tune out to their safety vids and also think they are never going to die or are fatalistic ,regular lotto buyers lol etc .So using humour is a great way to get the message across and make things stick. Advertisers know this and good teachers do too.

I’m over 60 as well but got the Nickelback bit ..lol

[Joshuatree]

I never bothered to look :)

[Beagle]

Oil now in bear country, down more than 20% from the recent high and the latest operating stat's looked very good. Headwinds abating and robust demand at better yields...and they seem to be coping with their engine drama's with about 6% more RPK's flown....Hmmmm

[Jantar]

Pretty outrageous statement - would you have any supporting evidence for your claim of Lion Air using unqualified pilots?

On facevalue it does not look like they hire unqualified pilots:

https://rishworthaviation.com/pilot-jobs/wings-air-atr72-500600-tre-ref1089 They would not use unqualified pilots. But their training to obtain their qualifications do not meet the standard required in many countries. In many Asian airlines the training is purely in a simulator until they do their first real flight as a second officer on a jet airliner. They do not go through the traditional flight schools that we have here in NZ, and many Asian pilots have never hand flown any aircraft in their entire career.

The Asiana (Korean) flight 214 that crashed in San Francisco about 5 years ago had 3 pilots on board, none of whom were qualified to fly a visual approach as instructed.

[Joshuatree]

Thank you Jantar.

[Jantar]

I don't know of any pilots that learn to fly exclusively in simulators - is that out of the Boys Own Annual? .... Post #16 on https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/555359-airlines-have-its-pilots-pay-fly.html?highlight=ptf

[winner69]

Share price back over $3 ...good stuff

[Beagle]

Post #16 on https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/555359-airlines-have-its-pilots-pay-fly.html?highlight=ptf

Hmmm...hard to beat 600 hours or thereabouts in command of real Cessna's and similar isn't it !
Something that gives quite a bit of comfort when aboard an AIR A320 landing in wild weather at Wellington, and yet another reason why Jetheap are on my never again list.

Yes Winner, back above the 30 day MA line, starting to look more encouraging.

[Blue Skies]

Post #16 on https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/555359-airlines-have-its-pilots-pay-fly.html?highlight=ptf

Hey Jantar, I agree with you. Please don't attribute that quote, "I don't know of any pilots that learn to fly exclusively ..etc," to me, it was someone else's.
If you follow the thread you'll see I was responding to it.

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/business/air-nz-safety-video-becomes-global-hit/ar-BBPqtZa?ocid=spartandhp
New safety video a global hit with 6 million views in just the first day ! You can't buy publicity like that. The folks at the marketing department at AIR are real guru's !

[Joshuatree]

According to the “black box” data found in the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft, the airspeed indicator malfunctioned on its last four flights but was replaced( by another faulty one?)
Also suggests an "experienced "pilot should be able to deal with it.
Boeing issues safety bulletin on 737 Max aircraft following Lion Air ... (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiEm6SV08TeAhVSOSsKHT6iAn0QFjAGegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2018%2F11%2F7 %2F18073532%2Fboeing-737-max-faa-lion-air-jakarta-indonesia&usg=AOvVaw0OT7tCtolAlQ34PODwYPFC)https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/7/.../boeing-737-max-faa-lion-air-jakarta-indonesi...

2:02Warning on Boeing 737 Max planes after Indonesia crash | Watch ... (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=2ahUKEwiEm6SV08TeAhVSOSsKHT6iAn0QwqsBMAh6BAgCE Ac&url=https%3A%2F%2Fglobalnews.ca%2Fvideo%2F4642090% 2Fwarning-on-boeing-737-max-planes-after-indonesia-crash&usg=AOvVaw2_CIb1jFGsyUVNQ0UhlhHA)

[Snow Leopard]

According to the “black box” data found in the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft, the airspeed indicator malfunctioned on its last four flights but was replaced( by another faulty one?)
Also suggests an "experienced "pilot should be able to deal with it.
Boeing issues safety bulletin on 737 Max aircraft following Lion Air ... (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiEm6SV08TeAhVSOSsKHT6iAn0QFjAGegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2018%2F11%2F7 %2F18073532%2Fboeing-737-max-faa-lion-air-jakarta-indonesia&usg=AOvVaw0OT7tCtolAlQ34PODwYPFC)https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/7/.../boeing-737-max-faa-lion-air-jakarta-indonesi...

2:02Warning on Boeing 737 Max planes after Indonesia crash | Watch ... (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=2ahUKEwiEm6SV08TeAhVSOSsKHT6iAn0QwqsBMAh6BAgCE Ac&url=https%3A%2F%2Fglobalnews.ca%2Fvideo%2F4642090% 2Fwarning-on-boeing-737-max-planes-after-indonesia-crash&usg=AOvVaw2_CIb1jFGsyUVNQ0UhlhHA)

As this unfortunate event has nothing to do with Air New Zealand and they do not fly this type of plane I do not see the relevence of your post here.

Furthermore if you wish to discuss this somewhere else I suggest that you reference industry related sources and stop incorrectly re-interpreting what you read to suit your biases.

There is a known sequence of events and over the coming months more factual evidence should be uncovered.

Everything else is currently conjecture.

[Joshuatree]

Sorry im not starting another thread up. I agree that the facts will be found and a conclusion reached,everything else is conjecture, guesswork, opinion, surmise etc. I don't believe im incorrectly interpreting anything as its my opinion based on what ive seen and read. Im not saying it is inexperienced pilot error(how could i) but thats one factor to be debated along with faulty instruments. There are thousands of 737's out there and AIR uses them too.. I believe AIR is rock solid with its pilot training but other airlines are not. Refer to Jantars link . It is indeed tragedy.

[Beagle]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12157534
Beagle Buys !

[BlackPeter]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12157534
Beagle Buys !

What are you buying? The disappearing seats?

If you are however referring to AIR ... do you think one competitor less will compensate for the jet fuel price and RR engine risks?

[Onion]

Air New Zealand working with ATR to develop hybrid electric planes (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12157487)


ATR chief executive Stefan Bortoli said the company believed turboprop technology would be an essential part the future of air transport.


''Hybrid and electric aircraft clearly are in that way forward. The combination of ATR and Air New Zealand jointly exploring the huge opportunities and implications on the whole regional aviation ecosystem is the perfect team,'' he said.



Air transport commentator Onion speculated that "The planes would be equipped with pedals in economy class. He expects that Air New Zealand will reward AirPoints customers based on the effort they put in, particularly during takeoff." He rebuffed speculation that the planes would have Team New Zealand style cycling pedestals as seen the last Americas Cup contest.

[Beagle]

What are you buying? The disappearing seats?

If you are however referring to AIR ... do you think one competitor less will compensate for the jet fuel price and RR engine risks?

Have you noticed that the oil price has collapsed by over 20% in the last few weeks and is now in bear market territory ?
They are coping quite well with managing their way through the RR issue and the stat's for September were very impressive including RPK's up by ~ 6%.

[BlackPeter]

Have you noticed that the oil price has collapsed by over 20% in the last few weeks and is now in bear market territory ?
They are coping quite well with managing their way through the RR issue and the stat's for September were very impressive including RPK's up by ~ 6%.

Fair enough - though I wouldn't be brave enough to predict what the oil price is doing in a month or three ;); I am sure we could have lots of fun with a mixture out of Iran sanctions and a weakened de-facto ruler of Saudi Arabia.

But yes, while I don't like AIR's management attitudes (many of them selling their shares as they get them) they are a well managed company paying a good dividend.

Anyway - currently moving my funds slowly into somewhat lower beta investments - and not sure I'd see any airline as top contender in that regard.

Leaves more shares to buy for you ;);

[Joshuatree]

Air New Zealand working with ATR to develop hybrid electric planes (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12157487)
Heehee:t_up:

[Beagle]

Fair enough - though I wouldn't be brave enough to predict what the oil price is doing in a month or three ;); I am sure we could have lots of fun with a mixture out of Iran sanctions and a weakened de-facto ruler of Saudi Arabia.

But yes, while I don't like AIR's management attitudes (many of them selling their shares as they get them) they are a well managed company paying a good dividend.

Anyway - currently moving my funds slowly into somewhat lower beta investments - and not sure I'd see any airline as top contender in that regard.

Leaves more shares to buy for you ;);


Agreed but that's what they have an extensive hedging program for. Happy with a modest stake for the reason highlighted.

[Benny1]

Agreed but that's what they have an extensive hedging program for. Happy with a modest stake for the reason highlighted.

Ahh, you never stay out for too long!
Three 787's still out of service, have heard they plan to get one more flying before Christmas... Engine availability dependant off course.
TEN engines remain a concern for me.. As far as I am aware they are limited 500 cycles only before they are sent back to Rolls for inspections and rework.. .. This is why NZM is at the moment one of the aircraft parked up...
First A321 NEO arrived this week due in service later this month..
Personally can't stand the new safety video.. and the HR rainbow diversity claptrap which has enveloped the whole organization at the moment... If you think HGH take all cultural and sexual diversity too far... They have nothing on what's happening at AIR..

[Beagle]

Appreciate the update. Just bought a very modest stake until we get more clarity on how the engine resolution process plays out.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12155959 You ever been on one of the acceptance teams mate ?

[dreamcatcher]

NICE.............AIR will carry over six million customers between December 1st and end of March next year with over 30,000 flights for Dec/Jan

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12156606

[winner69]

NICE.............AIR will carry over six million customers between December 1st and end of March next year with over 30,000 flights for Dec/Jan

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12156606

Hope it’s heaps more ...they carried 6,035,000 passengers same period last year

They say travel / tourism is a growth industry

[dreamcatcher]

Hope it’s heaps more ...they carried 6,035,000 passengers same period last year

They say travel / tourism is a growth industry

They mentioned "OVER six million" last year numbers already known but current final projection still unknown :)

[Beagle]

Hope it’s heaps more ...they carried 6,035,000 passengers same period last year

They say travel / tourism is a growth industry

Sept operating stat's provided significant encouragement. Shares are only fair value at the current level so I am sure some people on here will be "bitterly disappointed" I won't be ramping them :lol: Dumb dog I am sometimes, just my fascination with all things planes that means I find it hard to stay away as a shareholder...oh and the juicy dividends...dividend hound can't change his nature.
Reinforcements on the way to help meet demand. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12153913 Who would've thought you could build one of these A321 Neo's in 3 1/2 minutes :D

[Benny1]

Appreciate the update. Just bought a very modest stake until we get more clarity on how the engine resolution process plays out.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12155959 You ever been on one of the acceptance teams mate ?
Nope.. I'm not that important! 😃

[Beagle]

Nope.. I'm not that important! ��

No worries, with next year's bonus you can order one of these and go through your own pre delivery inspection process https://www.rivieraaustralia.com/

[Benny1]

No worries, with next year's bonus you can order one of these and go through your own pre delivery inspection process https://www.rivieraaustralia.com/

No thanks, boats have to be 90000 tons or over and have multiple bars and restaurants and someone to make my bed everyday before I will go on one!

[iceman]

Air Asia pulling out of NZ from February after flying Gold Coast - Auckland for the last 2.5 years. Less competition for AIR. The 2,000 Kiwi customers affected have been told to contact Air Asia's " Customer Happiness Team" :-)

[Beagle]

Air Asia pulling out of NZ from February after flying Gold Coast - Auckland for the last 2.5 years. Less competition for AIR. The 2,000 Kiwi customers affected have been told to contact Air Asia's " Customer Happiness Team" :-)

LOL I am sure that will be a happy experience for customers. Speaking or airlines cutting back capacity NBR reporting Hong Kong airways cutting back "The two Asia-based airlines on the Hong Kong-Auckland route are cutting capacity. Hong Kong Airlines will reduce its daily flights to five a week from March 31, 2019" Goes on to say cutting back to 3 times a week over winter.

[winner69]

Grumpy Gold Elite member pissed with AIR ...says customer service ethic down the gurgler or something like that

http://zawilski.co.nz/post/179745244757/is-customer-service-dead

[martinchnz1]

Getting rammed these days. Call it a cheeky tackle


https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/108580628/Air-New-Zealand-777-300-hit-by-another-plane-at-Los-Angeles-airport

[Beagle]

New bird to debut on the Gold Coast route. https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/new-planes-and-extra-flights-to-launch-on-auckland-gold-coast-route/ar-BBPDyeA?ocid=spartandhp

[Grimy]

Looks good. Centre seat 3cms wider than the 320, but the reporter was still hanging over the seats next to him. And as for him encouraging people to bring more carry-on luggage (my personal hate)...……..
I guess I'll get to try one of these next year.

[Beagle]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/13/why-oil-prices-tumbled-from-four-year-highs-into-a-bear-market.html

Got to be good for AIR.

[winner69]

This guy reckons AIR might replace the 777s with 787-10s

https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/are-air-new-zealand-about-to-announce-theyre-purchasing-the-boeing-787-10/

[777]

This guy reckons AIR mightbreplacevthe 777s with 787-10s

https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/are-air-new-zealand-about-to-announce-theyre-purchasing-the-boeing-787-10/

Just the 777 200's. Not the 777 300's

[dobby41]

Grumpy Gold Elite member pissed with AIR ...says customer service ethic down the gurgler or something like that

http://zawilski.co.nz/post/179745244757/is-customer-service-dead

The person isn't wrong though.
The idea of what service is has slipped a lot.

Also their planes are that great.
Flew Auck to Adelaide in business and the service was great.
Adelaide to Melbourne on Virgin in economy - great service, nice plane. Left 20min late (staff member sick) and arrived 5 min late. Kept informed along the way.
MEL to AKL on AIR economy. Told boarding 20min late but gate still said original time. Also no reason why.
Actually left 1 hr late and arrived 1 hr late. No reason given - most annoying.
Also the seat was a bit flat - sore bum after a couple of hours and this was a 787-9.
Staff was very average!
Might as well just get the cheapest.

[mikeybycrikey]

Grumpy Gold Elite member pissed with AIR ...says customer service ethic down the gurgler or something like that

http://zawilski.co.nz/post/179745244757/is-customer-service-dead

So much for Luxon's mea culpa (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12129918) where he said in September that they were in the process of hiring 80 more call centre staff (amongst other half apologies). Maybe they need to hire 80 more.

A text message about a cancelled flight just isn't good enough....

[Beagle]

This guy reckons AIR might replace the 777s with 787-10s

https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/are-air-new-zealand-about-to-announce-theyre-purchasing-the-boeing-787-10/

I think he talks common sense but I really hope that if they go the 787-10 direction that they fit the far less problematic GE engines !

[44wishlists]

LOL I am sure that will be a happy experience for customers. Speaking or airlines cutting back capacity NBR reporting Hong Kong airways cutting back "The two Asia-based airlines on the Hong Kong-Auckland route are cutting capacity. Hong Kong Airlines will reduce its daily flights to five a week from March 31, 2019" Goes on to say cutting back to 3 times a week over winter.

Tianjin Airline is stopping service to AKL from March 2019 as well. Is it a because Air NZ is winning the game, or a slow down in the tourism sector overall? That's worth a moment of thought. Maybe it's doing more harm to AIA, than AIR.

Bear in mind that AirNZ is looking after the line check and ground service for the Hong Kong Airlines birds in AIA. So that's a revenue drop when HKA cuts back their service.

[dobby41]

Unfortunately (and probably deservedly) not number 1 anymore
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/world/air-new-zealand-loses-best-airline-crown-after-five-year-reign-top
Singapore pipped them.

[Joshuatree]

"Air New Zealand is one of the few airlines in the world to have an investment grade credit rating, is a staunch supporter of its home country and has been enjoying a healthy expansion in both its domestic and international markets. Its overall product is superb, and its business class bed is outstanding,"

Bouquets for the credit rating, brickbats for its fleecing the regions imo.

[Bobdn]

They don't "fleece" the regions. They don't like flying routes that lose money (weird) they like to make a profit and stay in business and keep people employed and they pay a heap of tax. It's alright for businesses to make a profit and stay in business. New Zealanders generally struggle with the idea of companies making a "profit". Seems dirty somehow.

And if there is so much money flying to the regions, great, competitors will be lining up.

[blackcap]

They don't "fleece" the regions. They don't like flying routes that lose money (weird) they like to make a profit and stay in business and keep people employed and they pay a heap of tax. It's alright for businesses to make a profit and stay in business. New Zealanders generally struggle with the idea of companies making a "profit". Seems dirty somehow.

And if there is so much money flying to the regions, great, competitors will be lining up.

Well said. If Air did not price the regions the way they do, then there would be no AIR. (unless the govt went and bailed them out again). Its a free market out there, if you think AIR is charging too much on those regional routes, go set up an airline yourself and cream all those profits.

[Beagle]

The reginal debate has been done to death. In hindsight all those that claimed AIR were really creaming it on their some of their regional routes with their Beechcraft 1900 19 seater aircraft were made to look like idiots when AIR stopped using those aircraft and admitted they were losing over $1m a month operating them !

I think they're doing fine with their ATR aircraft but Jetstar have been allowed to come in and cream the most profitable routes without providing a comprehensive network coverage like AIR does. If there were such incredible super profits from providing a widespread national service covering most of the major regional towns and cities then the obvious question of why hasn't Jetstar expanded springs readily to mind.

[Joshuatree]

Its like the banks making super profits and at the same time closing down branches in towns, profits above service.

[iceman]

Well said. If Air did not price the regions the way they do, then there would be no AIR. (unless the govt went and bailed them out again). Its a free market out there, if you think AIR is charging too much on those regional routes, go set up an airline yourself and cream all those profits.

I think the problem some (including myself) have raised regarding this is that there have been operators starting up on routes that have been profitable, only to see AIR target the same routes at same flying times with predatory pricing until they've killed the competition. Then AIR ups the price again. Origin here in Nelson was a good example. AIR was then 100% Government owned so that can hardly be called a free market.
But of course I totally agree that AIR should be flying only on profitable routes.

[winner69]

AIR are into this customer analytics stuff ...so they proudly say

Interesting article

Love the industry term ‘calculated misery’

https://www.ama.org/publications/MarketingNews/Pages/how-airlines-get-customer-experience-so-wrong-with-so-much-data.aspx

[blackcap]

I think the problem some (including myself) have raised regarding this is that there have been operators starting up on routes that have been profitable, only to see AIR target the same routes at same flying times with predatory pricing until they've killed the competition. Then AIR ups the price again. Origin here in Nelson was a good example. AIR was then 100% Government owned so that can hardly be called a free market.
But of course I totally agree that AIR should be flying only on profitable routes.

Fair comment. But I was more concerned about AIR gouging the regions. It's not like they really make supernormal profits is it. So I do not really see what all the fuss is about. On the other hand, it could be that they (AIR) have become bloated and are not as efficient as they could be. Hard to tell which it is.

[Beagle]

If there were really super normal profits to be had in the regions, we would have seen JetStar expand throughout N.Z. The bottom line is JetStar has been allowed to cherry pick various routes and they are free to expand if they wish but they choose not to.

[winner69]

Didn’t know you could use AIR points A$ for this

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12161460


Just joking

[Beagle]

Huge correction in oil in recent weeks and strengthening in $Kiwi. Change of wind direction, was headwinds, now tailwinds ?

[sb9]

Huge correction in oil in recent weeks and strengthening in $Kiwi. Change of wind direction, was headwinds, now tailwinds ?

Guessing you're back in this....

[Beagle]

Guessing you're back in this....

Just a modest stake mate.

[Joshuatree]

Boeing to hold airline call on 737 MAX systems after Indonesia crash (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiy4bv0kuTeAhVLWH0KHY7sATMQqUMwAHoECAAQB Q&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2018%2F11%2F20%2F boeing-to-hold-airline-call-on-737-max-systems-after-indonesia-crash-sources.html&usg=AOvVaw3PSloKZ448odivlBLGR4PH)

"After the crash, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration warned airlines that erroneous inputs from the anti-stall system's sensors could lead the jet to automatically pitch its nose down even when autopilot is turned off, making it difficult for pilots to control."

Prelimery report 27-28th nov but 2nd black box not yet recovered.
Lion Air: Some are looking where to place the blame, others wonder if their pilot can fly their plane (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiy4bv0kuTeAhVLWH0KHY7sATMQqUMwAXoECAAQC Q&url=https%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2018%2F11%2F18 %2Famericas%2Flion-air-boeing-safety-intl%2Findex.html&usg=AOvVaw005DwQpMm7Y_tjaYXN40Yz)

[RTM]

Boeing to hold airline call on 737 MAX systems after Indonesia crash (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiy4bv0kuTeAhVLWH0KHY7sATMQqUMwAHoECAAQB Q&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2018%2F11%2F20%2F boeing-to-hold-airline-call-on-737-max-systems-after-indonesia-crash-sources.html&usg=AOvVaw3PSloKZ448odivlBLGR4PH)

"After the crash, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration warned airlines that erroneous inputs from the anti-stall system's sensors could lead the jet to automatically pitch its nose down even when autopilot is turned off, making it difficult for pilots to control."

Prelimery report 27-28th nov but 2nd black box not yet recovered.
Lion Air: Some are looking where to place the blame, others wonder if their pilot can fly their plane (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiy4bv0kuTeAhVLWH0KHY7sATMQqUMwAXoECAAQC Q&url=https%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2018%2F11%2F18 %2Famericas%2Flion-air-boeing-safety-intl%2Findex.html&usg=AOvVaw005DwQpMm7Y_tjaYXN40Yz)

Thanks. Interesting links. Starting to seem that Boeing's documentation might not be complete. The final outcome of these events is always so long after it happening, its hard to remember to keep looking for info on them.

[winner69]

Our Chris is going to be on Q&A on Sunday — discussing his role as the voice of NZ business

[Beagle]

Another very significant drop in oil on Wall St. Down a whopping 10% in the last week. Will give AIR the opportunity to lock in forward contracts at attractive level's.
ZEL will be liking this correction too. Cheaper petrol this summer will leave more money in consumers pockets for discretionary retail spending so good retailers like HLG will benefit.

[Benny1]

Another very significant drop in oil on Wall St. Down a whopping 10% in the last week. Will give AIR the opportunity to lock in forward contracts at attractive level's.
ZEL will be liking this correction too. Cheaper petrol this summer will leave more money in consumers pockets for discretionary retail spending so good retailers like HLG will benefit.

That's all good as long as this crap government don't whack another load of taxes on it first!!

[Beagle]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12167037

[winner69]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12167037

Could make a start by stop making those stupid (or are they cringeworthy) expensive safety videos

Good to see them saving their way to prosperity ...shareholders should be happy

But oil is heading into the $40s so doubly rewarding for AIR

[Blue Skies]

I see Chris Luxton want to cut $30M from costs. Should be able to save at least $1M by going back to simple, brief, no frills straightforward safety videos which don't irritate half the pax & everyone can understand (esp hearing impaired, English second language etc)
Just a little anecdote, I remember years ago (when US airlines served something resembling meals) a large US airline CEO needing to cut costs, incentivised staff for helpful suggestions. One of the cabin crew noticed when the food trays were collected back off the pax, 90% of them left the little black olives untouched. The airline management found out it was spending almost $1M a year on those olives which largely were ignored & thrown away, so immediately saved $1M without any impact on pax. Times & tastes have changed & I love olives (though not keen on those old small tasteless ones), but a story on how staff can often see things senior management might overlook.

[777]

While it was announced yesterday I would suggest that these savings were started a few months ago.

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/air-nz-honours-victims-of-perpignan-coast-crash/ar-BBQaKRH?ocid=spartandhp

28 November not AIR's lucky day is it !

[peat]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12167037

not much new there , in fact it sounds familiar from when i was there in the 90's - attacking staff travel a particularly old chestnut. It used to be only empty seats were available for staff travel. That costs next to nothing.

And they were also going to save millions by plugging in their planes at the hangar - sometimes with all these projected savings it makes you wonder how they were ever making any money.:p

[Beagle]

No wonder AIR is Kiwi's favorite employer. ~ $1.3b wages bill for 11,000 staff that's an ~ $118,000 average !

[BlackPeter]

No wonder AIR is Kiwi's favorite employer. ~ $1.3b wages bill for 11,000 staff that's an ~ $118,000 average !

I suspect long hours and travel allowances might explain some of that ...

[Beagle]

I suspect long hours and travel allowances might explain some of that ...

6 weeks annual leave, annual bonus's and free travel perks on the other side of the ledger not too shabby either. If one gets into the elite inner circle they even get an electric car to drive...not sure if that's a bonus or not lol

[couta1]

No wonder AIR is Kiwi's favorite employer. ~ $1.3b wages bill for 11,000 staff that's an ~ $118,000 average ! Must be an excess of Troughers then if the average is 118k, compare that to the village manager of a large retirement village like RYM with 400 residents and 150 staff to look after plus all the relatives to deal with, all that for 100k salary.Lol

[Joshuatree]

Latest news

Lion Air crash: Investigators say plane was 'not airworthy' - BBC Newshttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46121127 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjivu3c-PbeAhVFfysKHT2LD1AQFjAPegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-asia-46121127&usg=AOvVaw0WgfAFqEs8pu6xgusQqSAb)
"Pilots tried to correct this by pointing the nose higher, until the system pushed it down again. This happened more than 20 times.
It is unclear why the pilots did not employ procedures to disable the automated system."
Lion Air: Pilots fought automatic safety system before plane crashed ...https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/28/asia/lion-air-preliminary-report-intl/index.html (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjivu3c-PbeAhVFfysKHT2LD1AQFjANegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2018%2F11%2F28 %2Fasia%2Flion-air-preliminary-report-intl%2Findex.html&usg=AOvVaw1nkzeVtGM_oHIbAlaholqg)

[winner69]

October op stats not as strong as recent months but still pretty good

Forex seems to be favourable insofar as revenues go.

[winner69]

Could make a start by stop making those stupid (or are they cringeworthy) expensive safety videos

Good to see them saving their way to prosperity ...shareholders should be happy

But oil is heading into the $40s so doubly rewarding for AIR

Oil still tumbling ......


........and the fares went up recently didn’t they ...good

[Beagle]

Oil still tumbling ......


........and the fares went up recently didn’t they ...good

Stat's were solid, happy with that.
Fuel hedge is out and will see AIR burning fuel at slightly higher prices than the prevailing spot price for much of the remainder of FY19. About 70% hedged so some benefit to accrue from current spot.
I see they getting into puts and calls on the jet - Brent crack spread now too at up to $18 barrel.
Just as well Chris is doing his greenie thing wherever he can eh and looking into hybrid planes...nearly 2.5 million barrels of oil to be consumed in Q3 alone.

All things considered, (including the ongoing engine fiasco) I think the shares are fair value at around $3.00 - $3.10. Gross yield at $3.05 (22 / 0.72) / 305 = 10%
Holding a modest stake (as part of a well diversified portfolio) for that very good yield appears to be a reasonable strategy.

P.S. I see Chris Luxon had a pretty big pay day today. Sold 1.5 million shares for ~ $4.5m. Must be building a pretty fancy deck.

PPS - Interesting article on the various aspects of the new route to Chicago https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12167726

[value_investor]

Been holding for a couple years now and agree that $3.00 is probably close to fair based on current crude prices. Its been a bumpy ride on that regard. I bought in at a decent price but for now I'm only just holding onto it for the awesome yield, but it will be interesting if it can sustain it going forward into such a volatile marketplace.

[Baa_Baa]

Been holding for a couple years now and agree that $3.00 is probably close to fair based on current crude prices. Its been a bumpy ride on that regard. I bought in at a decent price but for now I'm only just holding onto it for the awesome yield, but it will be interesting if it can sustain it going forward into such a volatile marketplace.

Your yield is related to your SP buy price and dividends (earnings) paid out, so after you've bought in, it isn't affected by the SP head price changes regardless of the market. As long as AIR keep paying out excess profits along similar lines to recent history and your buy-in price is/was low enough to generate a nice yield, SP becomes irrelevant. Unless you sell, then your overall yield is affected by the difference between your buy price and your sell price, plus earnings in between. Yield is a good way of looking at and managing investments.

I tried to say that in plain english, the accountants here might have a more refined way of expressing how yield works for investing long term, versus focusing on SP, unless looking for a nice yield generating entry price.

[blackcap]

Your yield is related to your SP buy price and dividends (earnings) paid out, so after you've bought in, it isn't affected by the SP head price changes regardless of the market. As long as AIR keep paying out excess profits along similar lines to recent history and your buy-in price is/was low enough to generate a nice yield, SP becomes irrelevant. Unless you sell, then your overall yield is affected by the difference between your buy price and your sell price, plus earnings in between. Yield is a good way of looking at and managing investments.

I tried to say that in plain english, the accountants here might have a more refined way of expressing how yield works for investing long term, versus focusing on SP, unless looking for a nice yield generating entry price.

It depends on your definition of yield does it not? For example you may buy AIR fora "yield" of 5% pa by buying the shares at $3.00. But if the shares are trading at $2.00 in 5 years time then what is your yield on your investment in AIR? What if AIR never gets back to $3.00 and starts cutting dividends.
Or alternatively what if the SP goes up to $4.00 in 5 years time? For me yield is the realisable value of the investment plus any dividends returns received divided by the number of years invested (then a small calculation to allow for compounding to get yield in real terms) For example to me a 50% return over 5 years is an annual yield of 8.5% (1.085 to the power of 5 is close enough to 1.5)

[Beagle]

https://www.marketscreener.com/AIR-NEW-ZEALAND-LIMITED-6491407/financials/
Yield is showing in here as net forecast yield. Most people will gross that up for imputation credits at 28% by dividing the forecast yield number by 0.78.
For example in FY21 average broker forecast is for dividends of 24.9 cps / 0.72 = 34.58 cps gross inclusive of imputation credits.
34.58 / 309 = 11.2% forecast looks pretty attractive to me.

[Beagle]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12168490

Christopher looks happy...as I suppose he would be after a $4.5m pay day this week selling down some shares the board kindly allotted him.

[winner69]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12168490

Christopher looks happy...as I suppose he would be after a $4.5m pay day this week selling down some shares the board kindly allotted him.

O’Hare reports it made it safely after 16 hours and a bit

Beagle and a few others — Warning as a Kapa Haka is shown

https://twitter.com/fly2ohare/status/1068578301650845697

[iceman]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12168490

Christopher looks happy...as I suppose he would be after a $4.5m pay day this week selling down some shares the board kindly allotted him.

Is this a Dreamliner with a RR engine or is this one different ?

[Beagle]

Is this a Dreamliner with a RR engine or is this one different ?

This is with the so called new version of that RR engine the ten version. FAA haven't imposed flight restrictions on them. Really hope that version of the engine is durable.

[iceman]

Thanks Beagle. Would definitely be an interesting stopover to/from Europe, once the engines are proven !

[Beagle]

O’Hare reports it made it safely after 16 hours and a bit

Beagle and a few others — Warning as a Kapa Haka is shown

https://twitter.com/fly2ohare/status/1068578301650845697

Checked flight booking before it left. No seats left in business class. Must have flown those extremely important people up business class for free for that Haka.
Some seats available in economy for about $1,000 for the rest of us.

[Rep]

Checked flight booking before it left. No seats left in business class. Must have flown those extremely important people up business class for free for that Haka.
Some seats available in economy for about $1,000 for the rest of us.

In my experience, most long hauls to US have business class full - Yanks don't like to fly long haul in coach. Every Star Alliance Gold Elites have trouble getting upgrades so probably suggest there's opportunity there (noting Singapore Airlines having no economy on their super long hauls to/from the US) to change the configuration although us plebs out the back pay the Jet A1 and the folk lounging up front are paying the margins...

On another note, Air NZ has made WiFi free on equipped aircraft until the end of February. I'd suggest it will be slow as everyone will be latching onto social media to post FOMO - apparently Air NZ says they have blocked vox but I have already had techie folk tell me that it isn't hard to circumvent their block so the prospect of a long haul with someone blah blah the entire flight beside you makes me happy for Bose noise cancelling headphones and the fact I have no long hauls this summer. I'm going fishing instead.

[winner69]

Checked flight booking before it left. No seats left in business class. Must have flown those extremely important people up business class for free for that Haka.
Some seats available in economy for about $1,000 for the rest of us.

Full of ‘important’ people on a jaunt I reckon ....Kelvin Davis can’t contain himself telling the world about it and that new high flying employee Andrew Kirton is very excited.

[winner69]

In my experience, most long hauls to US have business class full - Yanks don't like to fly long haul in coach. Every Star Alliance Gold Elites have trouble getting upgrades so probably suggest there's opportunity there (noting Singapore Airlines having no economy on their super long hauls to/from the US) to change the configuration although us plebs out the back pay the Jet A1 and the folk lounging up front are paying the margins...

On another note, Air NZ has made WiFi free on equipped aircraft until the end of February. I'd suggest it will be slow as everyone will be latching onto social media to post FOMO - apparently Air NZ says they have blocked vox but I have already had techie folk tell me that it isn't hard to circumvent their block so the prospect of a long haul with someone blah blah the entire flight beside you makes me happy for Bose noise cancelling headphones and the fact I have no long hauls this summer. I'm going fishing instead.

Some commentators reckon AIR having ‘issues’ with their on board wifi so having it free might appease punters .....but go on to say if there is a decent takeup the ‘issues’ might get worse and result in disappointed punters who won’t pay in future.

Then again it might be the best thing since sliced bread

[couta1]

Interesting chart pattern on Air at the moment, is it going to breakout upwards or downwards? I can't tell just yet, anyone else want to take a guess?

[Beagle]

Interesting chart pattern on Air at the moment, is it going to breakout upwards or downwards? I can't tell just yet, anyone else want to take a guess?

I just bought some more...which way do you think I reckon its going :D Busiest season of the year now...oodles of cash flow for Africa.
600 flights scheduled on one day, their busiest day of the year on Dec 21...probably all nearly full at premium prices.

[kyanar]

I just bought some more...which way do you think I reckon its going :D Busiest season of the year now...oodles of cash flow for Africa.
600 flights scheduled on one day, their busiest day of the year on Dec 21...probably all nearly full at premium prices.

Premium prices? They were selling flights dirt cheap to us aussie residents around then. $5.5k return in Business, or about $800 return in Economy to the states, and not a lot more to London. Race to the bottom against Qantas, American and United.

[Raz]

Premium prices? They were selling flights dirt cheap to us aussie residents around then. $5.5k return in Business, or about $800 return in Economy to the states, and not a lot more to London. Race to the bottom against Qantas, American and United.

As a regular flyer I always book from overseas for AIR, way cheaper...

[blackcap]

As a regular flyer I always book from overseas for AIR, way cheaper...

Can you please explain how that works Raz? Do you use another website? Or do you mean you fly from LA to Auckland returning to LA with Air. Rather than Auck to La back to Auck? (I know about 20 years ago tickets were cheaper on air.co.nz rather than air.com but that has been standardised for a long time now)

[Raz]

Can you please explain how that works Raz? Do you use another website? Or do you mean you fly from LA to Auckland returning to LA with Air. Rather than Auck to La back to Auck? (I know about 20 years ago tickets were cheaper on air.co.nz rather than air.com but that has been standardised for a long time now)

Both:) I'm always going back and forth so i can start a return from either and also consider one way flights at times...American airlines, AIR and United are currently in play if you do not want to go via Australia..you can also get cheaper on code share at times...say fly American Airlines with a Qantas booking takes you to Auckland via AIR and AA from Auckland to LAX say on biz class...is the currently a steal...not a bad product, the food superior to AIR...

[dobby41]

Can you please explain how that works Raz? Do you use another website? Or do you mean you fly from LA to Auckland returning to LA with Air. Rather than Auck to La back to Auck? (I know about 20 years ago tickets were cheaper on air.co.nz rather than air.com but that has been standardised for a long time now)

I have found, on occassion, that it is cheaper to book via the Aussie site (for TransTasman) for Aus to NZ than the NZ site.
You can't put your airpoints number in as it will send you back to NZ but can add the booking ref to your airpoints after.

[Beagle]

Bumped into an old friend yesterday, a jet engine engineer at AIR so naturally I asked him how things are going with RR. We're "managing" it he said. Still got two planes parked up. It was just a very brief discussion...he was on his way with his daughter to get her orthodontic braces adjusted and was running late.
I got the sense that they are making some progress on this (used to be 4-5 planes parked up a couple on months ago) and managing their way through it okay. Thought I would share for what its worth which probably isn't much.

Maybe Benny could update us some more ?

[winner69]

Your engineer mate going to cause disruption before Christmas

[Peitro]

Unions representing Air New Zealand's aircraft maintenance engineers, aircraft logistics and related staff have served notice of a planned strike four days out from Christmas – on the airline's busiest travel day of the year.

[Beagle]

Your engineer mate going to cause disruption before Christmas

He didn't mention that ! "Bob" has never struck me as short of a quid and has worked there for at least a couple of decades and I would think he's one of their more senior staff so I would imagine he's one of the people on more than $150K. From what I have read there is now a global shortage of experienced LAME's (licensed aircraft maintenance engineers). Are they getting a bit greedy simply because they can ? If all the other unions are settling for x + 2% per annum to more than cover inflation why shouldn't they ?

[Robomo]

He didn't mention that ! "Bob" has never struck me as short of a quid and has worked there for at least a couple of decades and I would think he's one of their more senior staff so I would imagine he's one of the people on more than $150K. From what I have read there is now a global shortage of experienced LAME's (licensed aircraft maintenance engineers). Are they getting a bit greedy simply because they can ? If all the other unions are settling for x + 2% per annum to more than cover inflation why shouldn't they ?

Market forces at work. If I reckon my customers will pay I'll put my fees up, if competition enters the market I'll put my fees down. I like my job, but that doesn't mean I'll work for nothing.

[Beagle]

Market forces at work. If I reckon my customers will pay I'll put my fees up, if competition enters the market I'll put my fees down. I like my job, but that doesn't mean I'll work for nothing.

One can't be too greedy mate, you're part of a team of over 11,000 people with multiple other unions to consider. If everyone moves purely in line with market forces with no respect or consideration for other team members or shareholders then there would be so much disruption we wouldn't have an airline at all.
Suppose Bob is on say $180,000 at a guess. He's probably earned that level as he's been with them for so long and is highly experienced and a good reliable hard working team member from what I have heard and is well respected in the community. I doubt many Kiwi's would think $180,000 is nothing and I doubt many would think a 2% pay rise per annum is unreasonable. Here's an idea, why don't you ask some of the incredibly hard working young teachers on $50K what they think ? If you guys play hardball you may find more overhaul work being sent overseas. I'd feel safer when I fly if the work is done here because I know people like Bob are very thorough and have the highest level of integrity but greed is ugly and sometimes has consequences...

[dobby41]

One can't be too greedy mate, you're part of a team of over 11,000 people with multiple other unions to consider. If everyone moves purely in line with market forces with no respect or consideration for other team members or shareholders then there would be so much disruption we wouldn't have an airline at all.
Suppose Bob is on say $180,000 at a guess. He's probably earned that level as he's been with them for so long and is highly experienced and a good reliable hard working team member from what I have heard and is well respected in the community. I doubt many Kiwi's would think $180,000 is nothing and I doubt many would think a 2% pay rise per annum is unreasonable. Here's an idea, why don't you ask some of the incredibly hard working young teachers on $50K what they think ? If you guys play hardball you may find more overhaul work being sent overseas. I'd feel safer when I fly if the work is done here because I know people like Bob are very thorough and have the highest level of integrity but greed is ugly and sometimes has consequences...

Can't be too greedy or can be??

$150k would be about $75/hr if it was for a 40 hr week. Ask people if they would rather pay $75/hr for a LAME or $300/hr for a lawyer next time they fly?
It isn't easy to work out 'worth' with jobs.
I'd be paying teachers with 20 years experiance $100k+ - these people are setting up the future engineers and lawyers on the path to learning and are really invaluable.

[Beagle]

Can't be too greedy or can be??

$150k would be about $75/hr if it was for a 40 hr week. Ask people if they would rather pay $75/hr for a LAME or $300/hr for a lawyer next time they fly?
It isn't easy to work out 'worth' with jobs.
I'd be paying teachers with 20 years experiance $100k+ - these people are setting up the future engineers and lawyers on the path to learning and are really invaluable.

Can't be GREEDY...they're part of a team of 11,000 employees who all rely on each other to be fair and reasonable !
Can't resist instilling some reality into that. First up with 6 weeks annual leave for AIR employees sick leave and public holidays that leaves about 43 productive weeks.
I seriously doubt you would get anything like 40 productive hours out of a 40 hour working week. Downtime, technical update courses etc..maybe 35 hours x 43 weeks productive (about 1500 hours productive at a rough guess but I would think it would be a lot less) so more like $120 per productive hour. Do they face the daunting prospect of passing six year's of exams before they earn a single dollar ? Do they have the same high overheads as your suburban lawyer on $300 hour or no overheads costs...

[Raz]

Can't be too greedy or can be??

$150k would be about $75/hr if it was for a 40 hr week. Ask people if they would rather pay $75/hr for a LAME or $300/hr for a lawyer next time they fly?
It isn't easy to work out 'worth' with jobs.
I'd be paying teachers with 20 years experiance $100k+ - these people are setting up the future engineers and lawyers on the path to learning and are really invaluable.

A lot of their money is allowances..they still live in a bubble from times past. Market forces hehe.. when it comes to remuneration for the employee... conditions are not often in their favour over a work life. If there is a shortage and they can secure it I don't blame them going for top dollar...the last time I was employed 20 years ago I left my job on 125k. I'm still in wonder today, as an employer, the talent you can get on the market for 120-150k to work for you, and that money is worth a lot less than twenty years ago. Teachers are paid so little today...give them a decent package and pay equity would be sorted, numbers wise in the country:)

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/air-nz-engineers-to-strike-thousands-of-passengers-could-be-affected/ar-BBQBbFJ?ocid=spartandhp
I think strike action in the circumstances specially targeted at the busiest day of the year for AIR and its customers looking to get to family Christmas gatherings is especially egregious.
Probably two sides to the story though, see https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12172849 and https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12172945

[winner69]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/air-nz-engineers-to-strike-thousands-of-passengers-could-be-affected/ar-BBQBbFJ?ocid=spartandhp
I think strike action in the circumstances specially targeted at the busiest day of the year for AIR and its customers looking to get to family Christmas gatherings is especially egregious and engineers deserve the full contempt of the public for holding them to ransom.
Probably two sides to the story though, see https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12172849

Maybe they see Jacinda’s mate Chris a soft touch

[Beagle]

Maybe they see Jacinda’s mate Chris a soft touch

Usually two sides to the story so I shouldn't be so quick to judge, (bad dog, must work on that character flaw), but strike action on the busiest day of the year for AIR does seem like a carefully calculated and very aggressive approach at face value.

[steveb]

I just can't believe that after all the staff bonuses that have been paid over the years why would anyone want to bite the hand that feeds them.Unless as the hound says there are 2 sides to the story.But the board are not going to be happy chapies when it come's to looking at future bonuses,can you imagine what Sir John would have to say!

[Snow Leopard]

Obviously AIR employ damn good engineers as they will achieve maximum effect for the one strike day.
Good luck to them.

Meanwhile, if Chris 'million dollar man' Luxon went on strike for a day, would anybody notice (or even care)?

[Beagle]

Obviously AIR employ damn good engineers as they will achieve maximum effect for the one strike day.
Good luck to them.

Meanwhile, if Chris 'million dollar man' Luxon went on strike for a day, would anybody notice (or even care)?

That's a bit unfair...not an easy job leading an organisation of over 11,000 people especially when some of them deliberately target their action to cause maximum disruption to the company and the public at large. Hardly negotiating in good faith is it.

[Raz]

That's a bit unfair...not an easy job leading an organisation of over 11,000 people especially when some of them deliberately target their action to cause maximum disruption to the company and the public at large. Hardly negotiating in good faith is it.

To maximise leverage is different to acting in good faith...AIRs announcement in response was potentially not in good faith.

[winner69]

Engineers really miffed at something ...going to be 3 day strike if not sorted

[Baa_Baa]

Engineers really miffed at something ...going to be 3 day strike if not sorted

I doubt they're miffed as a collective. I'd call it leverage, excellent timing, with clear intent and purpose. It seems very well orchestrated and destined to be successful. Not sure I agree with their position but AIR are on the back foot, against clever astute negotiation.

[Beagle]

In the end the engineers will probably only shoot themselves in the foot and it will become less and less efficient to do engineering work in New Zealand. In due course it will be the overseas overhaul shops that are the only winners from this fiasco and as the next round of redundancies inevitably kicks in the engineers will be left wondering why they didn't see this coming and why their union didn't do a better job of protecting their long term interests.

[Benny1]

As others have said there are two side's to any agreement.
As I have a vested interest in this I will not be commenting on the specifics lest to say don't just read and take for gospel everything you read in the media.

[Robomo]

As others have said there are two side's to any agreement.
As I have a vested interest in this I will not be commenting on the specifics lest to say don't just read and take for gospel everything you read in the media.

You have declared your position so I think it only fair you print at least an abstract of what you believe the media have got wrong. I'm sure if you really didn't want to publicise your knowledge then you would have said nothing at all. If what you have is 'the truth' then you have nothing to worry about!

[Ggcc]

You have declared your position so I think it only fair you print at least an abstract of what you believe the media have got wrong. I'm sure if you really didn't want to publicise your knowledge then you would have said nothing at all. If what you have is 'the truth' then you have nothing to worry about!
Everyone has their own opinion. I have a friend who is a teacher and he commented on the pay disputes as being more about the money than the conditions for him. He just wanted more money plain and simple and felt he was not overworked. Yet other teachers say it has nothing to do with the money, it is all about the conditions. Everyone within the industry will give their view on things

[Beagle]

As others have said there are two side's to any agreement.
As I have a vested interest in this I will not be commenting on the specifics lest to say don't just read and take for gospel everything you read in the media.

Fair enough and don't feel obliged to comment any further mate.
I will just add that while there is always two sides to the story the optics on a planned strike just before Christmas and on AIR's busiest day of the year when over 40,000 people are trying to get to see their families for Christmas look really terrible. On the face of it this appears to be truly heinous timing and looks for all intents and purposes like your union is holding a gun to the head of the travelling public and the company.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12173632

[Sideshow Bob]

Had an excellent experience with Air NZ. Gold status just about to roll around and was only just short, but had a few cancelled flights - which would have put me over the line. Called up to speak with them about what I could do. The person I spoke to wasn't exactly clear when first spoke to him, but to give credit, they called me back soon after and then called me back again after he spoke with the "Premium Team". Gave me a few status points to get me over the line, so a happy camper!

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/companies/qantas-under-fire-for-volunteer-to-work-scheme-—-but-is-it-even-legal/ar-BBQM6OO?ocid=spartandhp

Interesting...as is this, the era of ultra long haul travel Auckland to London direct looks like its coming soon but :eek2: on the price per plane !
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12174746

[dobby41]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12174746[/url]

Only if you buy the Business Jet version - not a standard 777 and I'd expect much less people capacity.

[kyanar]

Capacity of roughly 400 pax, I imagine that's an all economy configuration though so once you add Business and Premium cabins it likely can only support about 300-340. Cargo capacity is also important, as that's where a decent amount of the revenue from flights comes from (freight).

Not sure I'd be happy to fly 21,000km in an anaemic Y seat though.

[Beagle]

Capacity of roughly 400 pax, I imagine that's an all economy configuration though so once you add Business and Premium cabins it likely can only support about 300-340. Cargo capacity is also important, as that's where a decent amount of the revenue from flights comes from (freight).

Not sure I'd be happy to fly 21,000km in an anaemic Y seat though.

Agreed, that's a truly dauting prospect.
Negotiations continuing https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12174966

[777]

It's a business jet not an airliner. Owned by those that money is not in short supply. Cargo would not be a consideration other than carrying their gold bars.

[kyanar]

It's a business jet not an airliner. Owned by those that money is not in short supply. Cargo would not be a consideration other than carrying their gold bars.

Then why, pray tell, is AIR looking to them as a replacement for the 772 fleet?


Air New Zealand is looking at the plane as a possible replacement for its Boeing 777-200s early next decade

The only thing that makes it a business jet is the cabin configuration. Get Zodiac to supply a few hundred Y and C class seats and you have yourself a commercial airliner. Air Force One, after all, is just a Boeing 747 (actually a VC25, which is a 747 with modifications). The designation as a "passenger jet" in its most common configuration doesn't make it not a business jet when kitted out to carry the POTUS.

[kyanar]

Agreed, that's a truly dauting prospect.
Negotiations continuing https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12174966

And engineers have voted to strike on 21, 22, and 23 December: https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/378052/air-nz-engineers-vote-to-strike-for-three-days-next-week

I imagine any public sympathy for their cause has evaporated. I best get some travel insurance with industrial action cover.

[Beagle]

They fully deserve the derision and contempt of the public. There is no excuse for wrecking so many Kiwi's family reunions over Christmas. They could easily have delayed industrial action until after Christmas. This short sighted outdated and confrontation style of negotiation from yesteryear will end up costing them heaps of jobs as the company sends more overhaul work overseas and they only have themselves to blame.

[kyanar]

The most concerning possible outcome is if Luxon pulls a (Alan) Joyce and responds by simply locking out the engineers and grounding the entire fleet. QAN risked losing tens of millions of dollars a day but forced the government to intervene and terminate both the lockout and strike action - and the union ended up losing all of their demands when it went in front of the fair work regulator.

[777]

Then why, pray tell, is AIR looking to them as a replacement for the 772 fleet?



The only thing that makes it a business jet is the cabin configuration. Get Zodiac to supply a few hundred Y and C class seats and you have yourself a commercial airliner. Air Force One, after all, is just a Boeing 747 (actually a VC25, which is a 747 with modifications). The designation as a "passenger jet" in its most common configuration doesn't make it not a business jet when kitted out to carry the POTUS.

The point is that as business jet it is kitted out as a luxury configuration and seating available will be a lot less than an airline could operate it economically.It will have bedroom suites, lounges the works. It will be a lot lighter and therefore would be able to fly a lot further than the airliner configuration. The heavier the aircraft the more fuel it burns. The lighter it is allows the same amount of fuel to take the aircraft further.

Sure AIR is looking at the 777X but direct to London with a payable payload is out of the question.

The article was about the Business Jet version.

[kyanar]

The point is that as business jet it is kitted out as a luxury configuration and seating available will be a lot less than an airline could operate it economically.It will have bedroom suites, lounges the works. It will be a lot lighter and therefore would be able to fly a lot further than the airliner configuration. The heavier the aircraft the more fuel it burns. The lighter it is allows the same amount of fuel to take the aircraft further.

Sure AIR is looking at the 777X but direct to London with a payable payload is out of the question.

The article was about the Business Jet version.

The only thing that makes it a "business jet" is the fit-out. Boeing doesn't even supply that, it's an empty shell out of the factory. You keep saying that "as a business jet it is kitted out as a luxury configuration" - no it's not. Seats and modules come from suppliers like Zodiac, or that evil company that wants to pack humans into standing chairs on planes.

There is no "business jet version" - it's all in the options the airline buys.

[dobby41]

The only thing that makes it a "business jet" is the fit-out. Boeing doesn't even supply that, it's an empty shell out of the factory. You keep saying that "as a business jet it is kitted out as a luxury configuration" - no it's not. Seats and modules come from suppliers like Zodiac, or that evil company that wants to pack humans into standing chairs on planes.

There is no "business jet version" - it's all in the options the airline buys.

So Boeing didn't
"Boeing will launch a mega business jet that can fly more than half way around the world without stopping, further than any business jet ever built."
And a BBJ-777x as a shell (without fitout) is no different from a standard 777x (no bigger tanks or anything).
Smoke and mirrors.

[Beagle]

So Boing didn't
"Boeing will launch a mega business jet that can fly more than half way around the world without stopping, further than any business jet ever built."
And a BBJ-777x as a shell (without fitout) is no different from a standard 777x (no bigger tanks or anything).
Smoke and mirrors.

Who cares ? All anyone wants to talk about is the strike action by engineers that was originally deliberately targeted at AIR's busiest day of the year December 21 when 42,000 travellers were trying to get to see their families at Christmas but has now even more heinously and reprehensibly been extended to cover the following two days 22 and 23 December. This union is holding over 100,000 travellers hostage for their own ends. This is the most heinously timed industrial action I can ever recall. I hope AIR take extremely serious action against staff involved in this if this goes ahead.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12173926

[777]

The only thing that makes it a "business jet" is the fit-out. Boeing doesn't even supply that, it's an empty shell out of the factory. You keep saying that "as a business jet it is kitted out as a luxury configuration" - no it's not. Seats and modules come from suppliers like Zodiac, or that evil company that wants to pack humans into standing chairs on planes.

There is no "business jet version" - it's all in the options the airline buys.

I am not disputing that. I am saying that in a full fit out by an airline for passengers and bags it will not get half way around the world. It could just not carry the required fuel.

[dobby41]

Who cares ?

You did - you mentioned that they'd be flying direct to London.

[BlackPeter]

Who cares ? All anyone wants to talk about is the strike action by engineers that was originally deliberately targeted at AIR's busiest day of the year December 21 when 42,000 travellers were trying to get to see their families at Christmas but has now even more heinously and reprehensibly been extended to cover the following two days 22 and 23 December. This union is holding over 100,000 travellers hostage for their own ends. This is the most heinously timed industrial action I can ever recall. I hope AIR take extremely serious action against staff involved in this if this goes ahead.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12173926

Agree full heartedly. Even if there are three versions to every story ... this is clearly a communication and PR desaster for the union. I guess they don't even seem to have any "feel good" reason they can sell the public for spoiling holidays and family reunions for 100's of thousands of Kiwis.

Looks to me like like plain blackmail. Must be time to take next time a carrier with less greedy and selfish enginieering staff.

[Beagle]

Agree full heartedly. Even if there are three versions to every story ... this is clearly a communication and PR desaster for the union. I guess they don't even seem to have any "feel good" reason they can sell the public for spoiling holidays and family reunions for 100's of thousands of Kiwis.

Looks to me like like plain blackmail. Must be time to take next time a carrier with less greedy and selfish enginieering staff.
Blackmail is exactly what it is and they are not only blackmailing the airline but also blackmailing the public. Lock them out and then hopefully they will picket non unionised engineers and I will be the first to throw rotten tomatoes and eggs at the picket line. "E tū's head of aviation, who goes by the name Savage" The name says it all. Its time to hit the afterburner and burn off some of these ungrateful ****s.

[percy]

Do Jetstar ever have strikes?

[Beagle]

Do Jetstar ever have strikes?

Ask Jayne Herdlicker.

[Raz]

Agree full heartedly. Even if there are three versions to every story ... this is clearly a communication and PR desaster for the union. I guess they don't even seem to have any "feel good" reason they can sell the public for spoiling holidays and family reunions for 100's of thousands of Kiwis.

Looks to me like like plain blackmail. Must be time to take next time a carrier with less greedy and selfish enginieering staff.

A touch over dramatic, if your going to strike you strike for maximum impact, everyone wants it not to touch them otherwise people don't care. If there was some decent industrial relations and trust between the parties it would not be required, simple. I have a good friend who is an engineer with AIR who would prefer not to strike however the way management has dealt with this group since the Rob Fyfe days makes it simple to understand why they have no trust in each other. AIRs management are paid the big bucks and as a shareholder I expect them to resolve it.

[Beagle]

A touch over dramatic, if your going to strike you strike for maximum impact, everyone wants it not to touch them otherwise people don't care. If there was some decent industrial relations and trust between the parties it would not be required, simple. I have a good friend who is an engineer with AIR who would prefer not to strike however the way management has dealt with this group since the Rob Fife days makes it simple to understand why they have no trust in each other. AIRs management are paid the big bucks and as a shareholder I expect them to resolve it.

AIR has about 11,000 employees and their wages bill is headed to $1.3b. That's getting on towards $120,000 per employee on average. No wonder they're N.Z. favourite employer. Your mate and his mates are jeopardizing the livelihoods of other employees, holding about 100,000 travellers and their families to ransom and affecting the reputation of the airline and potentially hurting shareholders pockets too. Blackmail is exactly what it is and it's heinously timed and reprehensible. Engineers should expect a backlash from the public and the company if this strike action goes ahead.

[Raz]

AIR has about 11,000 employees and their wages bill is headed to $1.3b. That's getting on towards $120,000 per employee on average. No wonder they're N.Z. favourite employer. Your mate and his mates are jeopardizing the livelihoods of other employees, holding about 100,000 travellers and their families to ransom and affecting the reputation of the airline and potentially hurting shareholders pockets too. Blackmail is exactly what it is and it's heinously timed and reprehensible. Engineers should expect a backlash from the public and the company if this strike action goes ahead.

For a numbers man perhaps you should go into PR :) 120k per employee is just showing some are very well paid..far from all. A lot of two tier contra contracts within the worker bees. I'm just asking the well paid to do their job:) How are they jeopardizing the livelihood of others employees...AIR will be here, given their near monopoly position in NZ for the seeable. They cannot blackmail the NZ public.. they can only leverage AIRs management..which AIRs management are happy to do in return constantly like any corporate, until it comes back and bites them :)

I actually do have tickets over this period and it sounds like your whole years holiday riding on this :)

[BlackPeter]

A touch over dramatic, if your going to strike you strike for maximum impact, everyone wants it not to touch them otherwise people don't care. If there was some decent industrial relations and trust between the parties it would not be required, simple. I have a good friend who is an engineer with AIR who would prefer not to strike however the way management has dealt with this group since the Rob Fife days makes it simple to understand why they have no trust in each other. AIRs management are paid the big bucks and as a shareholder I expect them to resolve it.

A touch condescending :p;

But yes - absolutely - its up to AIR management to resolve it. Haven't yet seen many examples where hostile industrial relations did help to boost a companies performance, but I remember a number of examples where unions brought a company to its knees. It is afterwards typically the workers (all of them, not just the unionised bullys) who pay the price with loosing their jobs, not the much loathed management.

[Beagle]

For a numbers man perhaps you should go into PR :) .
Are you offering me a job :D...I hear BMW needs a good PR person to remind people how good their vehicles are :D I have vented my spleen. Lets see how this plays out.

[winner69]

There’s a guy on twitter who reckons that Air negotiators haven’t been turning up for some pre-arranged meetings with the union .......and that pisses the union off

Anyway Jacinda will sort it out ...no strikes she promised .....but this could be a case of no government shareholder interference into operational issues

[kyanar]

Who cares ? All anyone wants to talk about is the strike action by engineers that was originally deliberately targeted at AIR's busiest day of the year December 21 when 42,000 travellers were trying to get to see their families at Christmas but has now even more heinously and reprehensibly been extended to cover the following two days 22 and 23 December. This union is holding over 100,000 travellers hostage for their own ends. This is the most heinously timed industrial action I can ever recall. I hope AIR take extremely serious action against staff involved in this if this goes ahead.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12173926

I've said it before - I think the union is making a mistake not trying to do something to garner public support for their cause. If they do strike, all Luxon need do is replicate what Joyce did when QAN crews went on strike - lock them out and ground the fleet. It will lose the airline millions but it will force Government intervention. And the Government will have little choice but to come down on whatever side has popular support - in QAN's case, the regulator simply threw out all the union's key demands after ordering the strike and lockout to cease. In the AIR case, I can't see it ending up very different, as the sales pitch to the public so far by E Tu is atrocious.

[Raz]

I've said it before - I think the union is making a mistake not trying to do something to garner public support for their cause. If they do strike, all Luxon need do is replicate what Joyce did when QAN crews went on strike - lock them out and ground the fleet. It will lose the airline millions but it will force Government intervention. And the Government will have little choice but to come down on whatever side has popular support - in QAN's case, the regulator simply threw out all the union's key demands after ordering the strike and lockout to cease. In the AIR case, I can't see it ending up very different, as the sales pitch to the public so far by E Tu is atrocious.

I would tend to agree however i do wonder how close in E TU to the current Government?

[Beagle]

I would tend to agree however i do wonder how close in E TU to the current Government?

Ask Shane Jones, he might know if he's not too busy throwing millions around on his pet projects like Santa Claus throwing around lollies in a lolly scramble.

[Snow Leopard]

Interesting chart pattern on Air at the moment, is it going to breakout upwards or downwards? I can't tell just yet, anyone else want to take a guess?

Interesting?
You hardly ever see a barrel roll in an airline share price chart.

Meanwhile independently of the discussion of whether they buy a Boeing Business Jet for senior management to circle the globe in whilst repressing the work-force, the share price is doing remarkably well all things considered.

Hope the strikes do not happen and the engineers get a good deal.

[minimoke]

A touch over dramatic, if your going to strike you strike for maximum impact, everyone wants it not to touch them otherwise people don't care. If there was some decent industrial relations and trust between the parties it would not be required, simple. I have a good friend who is an engineer with AIR who would prefer not to strike however the way management has dealt with this group since the Rob Fyfe days makes it simple to understand why they have no trust in each other. AIRs management are paid the big bucks and as a shareholder I expect them to resolve it.Your good friend can't be the Prime Minister then. Shes has said, of Air NZ "where, through their framework of working collectively with their employees, they have improved productivity, … health and safety, and they have a high-performance workplace."

[winner69]

Good old Jacinda telling both sides to sort it quickly.

Strike off

[dobby41]

So the unions ploy worked - agreement in principle.
Strike off.
Everyone back in their boxes and let the airline earn.

[workingdad]

I wonder what the damage is though, although I like the idea of workers getting their fair share threatening strike action that could negatively impact on so many families is a leverage ploy I wouldn't use and doesn't buy public sympathy..... outsourcing engineering work on the cards in future???

[Beagle]

I wonder what the damage is though, although I like the idea of workers getting their fair share threatening strike action that could negatively impact on so many families is a leverage ploy I wouldn't use and doesn't buy public sympathy..... outsourcing engineering work on the cards in future???

Yes....The union and its members have caused a lot of upset and disquiet with the travelling public and the optics on this were absolutely appalling so I won't be surprised to see them get their comeuppance in the future.

Anyway moving on...have you ever wondered why you fart a lot on aircraft and feel absolutely dreadful after a long flight, read on...
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/lifestyle/travel/this-is-what-happens-to-your-body-on-a-long-haul-flight/ar-BBQOUQ8?ocid=spartandhp

[Benny1]

I wonder what the damage is though, although I like the idea of workers getting their fair share threatening strike action that could negatively impact on so many families is a leverage ploy I wouldn't use and doesn't buy public sympathy..... outsourcing engineering work on the cards in future???

Work has been outsourced for years... All heavy maintenance on widebodies has been done in Hongkong, China and in the last few in Singapore .
When Air NZ were doing heavy maintenance on Hawaiian 767's our own were going off-shore.
Company has looked at closing maintenance altogether in the past.. However the risks far outweigh the costs of keeping maintenance going in NZ.
Waiting to see the details of the deal... Will be interesting to say the least...

[Raz]

Work has been outsourced for years... All heavy maintenance on widebodies has been done in Hongkong, China and in the last few in Singapore .
When Air NZ were doing heavy maintenance on Hawaiian 767's our own were going off-shore.
Company has looked at closing maintenance altogether in the past.. However the risks far outweigh the costs of keeping maintenance going in NZ.
Waiting to see the details of the deal... Will be interesting to say the least...

I agree, people here have no idea the background with this employer and union. Given the background I would have negotiated the same and if the chief negotiator is looking for work...I would consider them.

Pivot now to a shareholders perspective..my expectations are meet, management did what needed to be done, finally.

[Benny1]

I agree, people here have no idea the background with this employer and union. Given the background I would have negotiated the same and if the chief negotiator is looking for work...I would consider them.

Pivot now to a shareholders perspective..my expectations are meet, management did what needed to be done, finally.

Having seen the guts of the deal I wouldn't call this one is over and done just yet...
Strike action is off for before Christmas due to possible company legal action..

With the reaction to that particular strike date (Dec 21) on here now behind us I'm sure there will be no out pouring of grief if any strike action is taken in the future...

[kyanar]

Having seen the guts of the deal I wouldn't call this one is over and done just yet...
Strike action is off for before Christmas due to possible company legal action..

With the reaction to that particular strike date (Dec 21) on here now behind us I'm sure there will be no out pouring of grief if any strike action is taken in the future...

The article on NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12176020) gave an interesting perspective on that. Especially this quote:


E tū and the Aviation and Marine Power Association overestimated public sympathy for their cause. There was very little on show.

[Raz]

The article on NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12176020) gave an interesting perspective on that. Especially this quote:

Don't think that is the case, my understanding is the media did not want to provide assurances the Unions perspective would be fully covered so they did not engage. In addition legal action created risks wrt good faith bargaining. This has been an issue for other unions, the respective teacher unions have had discussion between themselves how to tackle.

[Beagle]

The article on NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12176020) gave an interesting perspective on that. Especially this quote:

Far from evoking sympathy I think their is a lot of anger against the engineers and their union now. Engineers have shot themselves in the foot with both barrels with both the airline and the public strongly against them now.

[Beagle]

Having seen the guts of the deal I wouldn't call this one is over and done just yet...
Strike action is off for before Christmas due to possible company legal action..

With the reaction to that particular strike date (Dec 21) on here now behind us I'm sure there will be no out pouring of grief if any strike action is taken in the future...

"Bob" is a good guy and I think you are too but trust me on this mate, there will be no outpouring of grief from the public if the company makes widespread redundancies and ships heaps more work offshore. The way your union reps went about this was truly despicable and heinous and won't be forgotten by the public for a very long time. Experienced engineers make plenty in my opinion, certainly "Bob" is never short of a quid, and many would argue some of your unions ancient practice overtime rates and allowances don't belong in a modern workplace.

For what its worth I often work evenings and weekends when I have too and never have an expectation that I can recover anything other than my standard rate. Heaps of managers I know work 60 hour weeks when they have too and get nothing other than their regular salary. In fact show me a manager these days that gets away with working just 40 hours for his salary and I'll show you someone that will not ever be advancing within that company.

[777]

The salaries they get is in the expectation they will need to work those hours when needed.

And I am sure that the public opinion is 50:50 and will be forgotten about in short order.

[Beagle]

The salaries they get is in the expectation they will need to work those hours when needed.

And I am sure that the public opinion is 50:50 and will be forgotten about in short order.

In my opinion you've got that dead wrong on both counts. I can't remember the last time a union put a gun to the crucial travel plans of over 100,000 Kiwi's at Christmas but it will be a long time before this is forgotten as the optics of the timing of the notified strike action, (subsequently extended to 3 days) don't ever get any worse than this. Publicly threaten over 100,000 families crucial Christmas travelling plans as a bargaining chip and expect them to forgive and forget it quickly...you are dreaming mate. Some will have already made alternative travel arrangements at great cost.

[777]

We will have to agree to differ then.

[Benny1]

"Bob" is a good guy and I think you are too but trust me on this mate, there will be no outpouring of grief from the public if the company makes widespread redundancies and ships heaps more work offshore. The way your union reps went about this was truly despicable and heinous and won't be forgotten by the public for a very long time. Experienced engineers make plenty in my opinion, certainly "Bob" is never short of a quid, and many would argue some of your unions ancient practice overtime rates and allowances don't belong in a modern workplace.

For what its worth I often work evenings and weekends when I have too and never have an expectation that I can recover anything other than my standard rate. Heaps of managers I know work 60 hour weeks when they have too and get nothing other than their regular salary. In fact show me a manager these days that gets away with working just 40 hours for his salary and I'll show you someone that will not ever be advancing within that company.

I don't do personal stuff so won't get into anything on here...however

From my experience managers come and go almost like clockwork...
If a mangers stuff's up there's usually an excuse or if it's really bad they are moved on....

If an engineer stuff's up they are wrapped over the knuckles...
If an engineer stuff's up really bad 350 people die...

I will let people decide for themselves which one they would rather have overworked and under paid....

Just an aside this could have all been averted a year ago....last year the unions sort a 9 month term, but the COMPANY insisted on a full year again...this could have all played out back in August or September....

By the way I forgot earlier...there was a"C" check on a 777 carried out in AKL earlier this year.. and while I won't quote figures on this site it was considerably cheaper in the (100's of thousands) than what it would have cost had it be done overseas FACT... so yeah send more away if you want to burn more of the companies money!!!

Engineers are actually a very cheap insurance policy, you are looking at thousands or dollars an hour to have a plane out of action...far more than than an engineers hourly rate...
As far as the job the cleaners do...don't even let me get started about the stuff they see and have to deal with... You honestly can't pay them enough, Planes are absolutely disgusting if you know where to look!

Remember in airline terms AIR is just a pimple on the arse of the total world airline fleet.... We simply don't have the scale to demand maintenance slots and prices ... If you owned an MRO will you take AIR's 8 checks a year or an US carriers 100 checks??

[Baa_Baa]

Provocative, food for thought. Great to have some inside knowledge sharing. Thanks for that.

[Beagle]

There are ways of negotiating and then there's blackmailing the company and the public. I think we should just agree to disagree on this one Benny1.
What is not in dispute is that over 100,000 travelers and their families have been stressed out by the actions of a small group of AIR's employees, some of whom would have taken the cautionary move of making alternative travel plans at great cost.
This message just into my inbox from AIR
[I]Kia ora Beagle,
The team at Air New Zealand would like to acknowledge how stressful this past week has been for customers booked to travel in the lead up to Christmas. It’s great to be able to confirm the threat of strike action was lifted late last night so you can continue to have confidence in your travel plans as we are now on track to operate our flights as normal at this very important time of year.
We are currently heading into the busiest travel period of the year. Air New Zealand will carry six million customers this summer with up to 600 flights a day at peak times. Next Friday 21 December, 30,000 customers are expected to pass through Auckland Airport’s domestic terminal alone.
If you’re travelling this summer, there are a few things you can do to ensure your journey is a smooth one. Please take the time to download our app on your smartphone – or update it if you don’t have the latest version. It’s free and is the best way for us to communicate with you and keep you up to date with real time flight information including last minute schedule delays or gate changes.
Unfortunately, schedule disruptions do happen from time to time and our Travel Alerts service is a great source of up to date information in these situations. We strongly encourage you to sign up for the service and ensure your current contact details are entered into your booking detail, should we need to reach you while you’re on the go.
Do make sure you get to the airport in plenty of time. With the high volumes of people travelling, expect queues at check in and security and make sure you allow yourself plenty of time for a stress-free journey.
Finally, don’t overlook travel insurance, even for domestic journeys. While we’re all hoping for a long idyllic summer, every year things outside our control such as summer storms can play havoc with customers’ travel plans. For peace of mind we always recommend travellers take out travel insurance.
Thank you again to those customers affected by the uncertainty of the past week for your patience and support.
Have a very safe and happy holiday period.

Ngā mihi
Air New Zealand

Emphasis added.
Not sure what Nga mihi means...suppose I need to get with the times a bit more and expand my Maori language skills.

[Snow Leopard]

....For what its worth I often work evenings and weekends when I have too and never have an expectation that I can recover anything other than my standard rate....

If you did not spend so much of the normal working week repeatedly posting the same opinion on here you would not need to do evenings and weekends.

[peat]

If you did not spend so much of the normal working week repeatedly posting the same opinion on here you would not need to do evenings and weekends.

what are you on about, its not the same opinion all the time. it changes a lot!

[Raz]

I don't do personal stuff so won't get into anything on here...however

From my experience managers come and go almost like clockwork...
If a mangers stuff's up there's usually an excuse or if it's really bad they are moved on....

If an engineer stuff's up they are wrapped over the knuckles...
If an engineer stuff's up really bad 350 people die...

I will let people decide for themselves which one they would rather have overworked and under paid....

Just an aside this could have all been averted a year ago....last year the unions sort a 9 month term, but the COMPANY insisted on a full year again...this could have all played out back in August or September....

By the way I forgot earlier...there was a"C" check on a 777 carried out in AKL earlier this year.. and while I won't quote figures on this site it was considerably cheaper in the (100's of thousands) than what it would have cost had it be done overseas FACT... so yeah send more away if you want to burn more of the companies money!!!

Engineers are actually a very cheap insurance policy, you are looking at thousands or dollars an hour to have a plane out of action...far more than than an engineers hourly rate...
As far as the job the cleaners do...don't even let me get started about the stuff they see and have to deal with... You honestly can't pay them enough, Planes are absolutely disgusting if you know where to look!

Remember in airline terms AIR is just a pimple on the arse of the total world airline fleet.... We simply don't have the scale to demand maintenance slots and prices ... If you owned an MRO will you take AIR's 8 checks a year or an US carriers 100 checks??

Well you have my support and I think you are underpaid for the work you do, Engineers as a group are underpaid in relative terms to other professions. I think many understand industrial relations and what really happens behind closed doors in NZ as they face it in their own work places, including at AIR. People only care about how it effects them and in the end you are the only ones in your corner.

People have already moved on..and that is just the way it is.

[workingdad]

Well you have my support and I think you are underpaid for the work you do, Engineers as a group are underpaid in relative terms to other professions. I think many understand industrial relations and what really happens behind closed doors in NZ as they face it in their own work places, including at AIR. People only care about how it effects them and in the end you are the only ones in your corner.

People have already moved on..and that is just the way it is.

I get frustrated with the whole ..... (insert occupation here) are underpaid. So many industries and occupations have exceptionally skilled staff and responsibilities that could be linked to protecting life, motor mechanics for one, we drive a lot more than we fly and many more killed on the roads than in the air. Paramedics currently on a uniform strike, if you ever get hurt or sick, have a heart attack or other emergency your life is in the hands of someone on a starting salary of not much more than $50,000 p/a. The top of the tree intensive care paramedics get $80,000 odd a year, these people keep you alive when someone else crosses the centre line hitting your car with your kids in it, they work weekends, nights and stressful jobs in their own way, nurses, teachers the list goes on, how successful would our children be without good teachers? Support services of lower qualified people, they all have an important role to fill as I cant imagine the upper middle class rolling up their sleeves. What's more important, the engineer servicing an engine or the people putting the technical advice out telling them how to do it? The pilots flying the plane or the people putting the fuel in, testing the fuel, making it the right way? All cogs in the wheel.

There is so much more to things than we know, everyone is worth their salt and over the years company greed, CEO greed and the old boys club has continued to find new heights in so many businesses. France is a good example where people are kicking back, I look at my children and wonder what will be left of society as it creeps even further. When I had shares in AIR I was impressed with the bonuses when good profits were made, they could have even gone further and as a shareholder it didn't bother me one bit if it reduced my piece of the pie. I don't think the union went about it the right way, Christmas and families holidays is not a bargaining chip and I wouldn't hire the bright spark who's idea it was as management wont forget and at the end of the day they make the decisions that effect the futures of said engineers and my thoughts are they deserve more remuneration but regardless of the merits that strike action was a step too far given the potential collateral damage.

[Beagle]

what are you on about, its not the same opinion all the time. it changes a lot!

LOL because guess what ?...the economic situation and dynamic forces in the market both locally and overseas are in a constant state of flux. He who reads the changing tea leaves and changing tides of economic fortune the best gets to retire the most comfortably.


I get frustrated with the whole ..... (insert occupation here) are underpaid. So many industries and occupations have exceptionally skilled staff and responsibilities that could be linked to protecting life, motor mechanics for one, we drive a lot more than we fly and many more killed on the roads than in the air. Paramedics currently on a uniform strike, if you ever get hurt or sick, have a heart attack or other emergency your life is in the hands of someone on a starting salary of not much more than $50,000 p/a. The top of the tree intensive care paramedics get $80,000 odd a year, these people keep you alive when someone else crosses the centre line hitting your car with your kids in it, they work weekends, nights and stressful jobs in their own way, nurses, teachers the list goes on, how successful would our children be without good teachers? Support services of lower qualified people, they all have an important role to fill as I cant imagine the upper middle class rolling up their sleeves. What's more important, the engineer servicing an engine or the people putting the technical advice out telling them how to do it? The pilots flying the plane or the people putting the fuel in, testing the fuel, making it the right way? All cogs in the wheel.

There is so much more to things than we know, everyone is worth their salt and over the years company greed, CEO greed and the old boys club has continued to find new heights in so many businesses. France is a good example where people are kicking back, I look at my children and wonder what will be left of society as it creeps even further. When I had shares in AIR I was impressed with the bonuses when good profits were made, they could have even gone further and as a shareholder it didn't bother me one bit if it reduced my piece of the pie. I don't think the union went about it the right way, Christmas and families holidays is not a bargaining chip and I wouldn't hire the bright spark who's idea it was as management wont forget and at the end of the day they make the decisions that effect the futures of said engineers and my thoughts are they deserve more remuneration but regardless of the merits that strike action was a step too far given the potential collateral damage.

What a superb post which sums up the situation perfectly. I couldn't agree more.

[Snow Leopard]

This should cheer Beags up.

Tigerair Australia pilots vote to take industrial action (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tigerair-australia-pilots-vote-to-take-industrial-ac-454422/)

I especially like the bit about "take measures to fly slower"

[kyanar]

This should cheer Beags up.

Tigerair Australia pilots vote to take industrial action (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tigerair-australia-pilots-vote-to-take-industrial-ac-454422/)

I especially like the bit about "take measures to fly slower"

Yes, but contrast with E Tu's position:


"After two years of bargaining, the decision to take protected industrial action was not made lightly," says AFAP industrial officer James Lauchland.

"The industrial action will not be conducted on Christmas Day or Boxing Day, as the federation’s members want to ensure passengers can travel to be with their families and friends."

[Benny1]

This should cheer Beags up.


Tigerair Australia pilots vote to take industrial action (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tigerair-australia-pilots-vote-to-take-industrial-ac-454422/)

I especially like the bit about "take measures to fly slower"

Has.. I liked the bit that says refuse to fly aircraft with "minor deferred defects".
The airline will be grounded straight away!
Don't think there is an aircraft flying that doesn't have something in the log book!

[Beagle]

http://nzx-prod-s7fsd7f98s.s3-website-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/attachments/AIR/328581/292649.pdf Looks pretty good to me.

[Jaa]

Early days but it Looks like Air NZ has taken the market share they wanted from Virgin since the end of the Virgin alliance. Be interesting to see Qantas and Virgin's numbers on the Tasman over the next year.

Long haul is starting to look a bit weak though, a load factor below 80% in any market is rare for Air NZ and a warning sign.

[Beagle]

Long haul YTD 83.7% load factor compared to 82.4% in the same YTD period last year. Important not to read too much into any one single months stat's in my opinion.

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/finance/oil-plunges-more-than-7-per-cent-on-oversupply-concerns/ar-BBR92J6?ocid=spartandhp

[Bobdn]

"Based upon current market conditions and assuming an average jet fuel price of US$85 per barrel, 2019 underlying earnings before taxation is expected to be in the range of $425 million to $525 million." Annual Result

Looks like jet fuel is currently sitting at $74 $/bbl, maybe less now.

https://www.iata.org/publications/economics/fuel-monitor/Pages/index.aspx

[Beagle]

Yes jet possibly a bit less now but probably already built into the share price after gains in the last few days. I have a neutral view on the share price at $3.19 where fuel costs and demand are now and am holding for yield and hoping all workers at the airline realise they are interdependent upon each other and are realistic, fair and reasonable in their wage demands going forward and cognisant and respectful of the fact that if people hadn't stumped up with the capital to form the airline they wouldn't have a job at all, (i.e. the shareholders of the airline deserve a fair return for their capital in this high risk volatile and cyclical industry).

[777]

Yes jet possibly a bit less now but probably already built into the share price after gains in the last few days. I have a neutral view on the share price at $3.19 where fuel costs and demand are now and am holding for yield and hoping all workers at the airline realise they are interdependent upon each other and are realistic, fair and reasonable in their wage demands going forward and cognisant and respectful of the fact that if people hadn't stumped up with the capital to form the airline they wouldn't have a job at all, (i.e. the shareholders of the airline deserve a fair return for their capital in this high risk volatile and cyclical industry).

And why should employees at Air NZ be any different than employees of all companies on the sharemarket? Or are you just vocal about it on this,(read your) thread.

[Beagle]

I get frustrated with the whole ..... (insert occupation here) are underpaid. So many industries and occupations have exceptionally skilled staff and responsibilities that could be linked to protecting life, motor mechanics for one, we drive a lot more than we fly and many more killed on the roads than in the air. Paramedics currently on a uniform strike, if you ever get hurt or sick, have a heart attack or other emergency your life is in the hands of someone on a starting salary of not much more than $50,000 p/a. The top of the tree intensive care paramedics get $80,000 odd a year, these people keep you alive when someone else crosses the centre line hitting your car with your kids in it, they work weekends, nights and stressful jobs in their own way, nurses, teachers the list goes on, how successful would our children be without good teachers? Support services of lower qualified people, they all have an important role to fill as I cant imagine the upper middle class rolling up their sleeves. What's more important, the engineer servicing an engine or the people putting the technical advice out telling them how to do it? The pilots flying the plane or the people putting the fuel in, testing the fuel, making it the right way? All cogs in the wheel.

There is so much more to things than we know, everyone is worth their salt and over the years company greed, CEO greed and the old boys club has continued to find new heights in so many businesses. France is a good example where people are kicking back, I look at my children and wonder what will be left of society as it creeps even further. When I had shares in AIR I was impressed with the bonuses when good profits were made, they could have even gone further and as a shareholder it didn't bother me one bit if it reduced my piece of the pie. I don't think the union went about it the right way, Christmas and families holidays is not a bargaining chip and I wouldn't hire the bright spark who's idea it was as management wont forget and at the end of the day they make the decisions that effect the futures of said engineers and my thoughts are they deserve more remuneration but regardless of the merits that strike action was a step too far given the potential collateral damage.

This 777 should be hugely enlarged, printed out multiple copies, framed and hung on the hanger walls at AIR's buildings and at their head office and in the cockpit of every aircraft. There's a LOT of greed and ego in this industry in my opinion and some of the salaries are eye watering. The average salary right across the airline is about $120,000 for over 11,000 employees. I think this is absurd. Its very hard for shareholders who's risk capital is the reason these people are so fortunate to have a job, to get a fair return when the average salary is that high and then certain sectors get even more greedy with their entitlement thinking and blackmail the public at Christmas time....any wonder resentment and hostility simmer away sometimes...enough said.

I think all employees should be cognisant that the only reason they have a job is that the Government bailed out the airline shortly after 9/11. They're effectively working for a Government controlled company with all the stability that implies, (probably a bit less now that Cindy's Kindy are in charge)...they should count themselves very fortunate.

[Benny1]

This 777 should be hugely enlarged, printed out multiple copies, framed and hung on the hanger walls at AIR's buildings and at their head office and in the cockpit of every aircraft. There's a LOT of greed and ego in this industry in my opinion and some of the salaries are eye watering. The average salary right across the airline is about $120,000 for over 11,000 employees. I think this is absurd. Its very hard for shareholders who's risk capital is the reason these people are so fortunate to have a job, to get a fair return when the average salary is that high and then certain sectors get even more greedy with their entitlement thinking and blackmail the public at Christmas time....any wonder resentment and hostility simmer away sometimes...enough said.

I think all employees should be cognisant that the only reason they have a job is that the Government bailed out the airline shortly after 9/11. They're effectively working for a Government controlled company with all the stability that implies, (probably a bit less now that Cindy's Kindy are in charge)...they should count themselves very fortunate.

Get out the wrong side of the bed again Mr B?
Do we really need to go back there?
God I could get into this but not going to take the bait....
Airlines are VERY dependent on the people who work for them.. . Probably more so than most industries as it is so highly regulated.

If you had any idea of what actually goes on behind the scenes to keep those lumps of metal and carbon fibre in the air then maybe you would be abit more appreciative of those employees.
Have another coffee and enjoy the rest of your day..

[biker]

Get out the wrong side of the bed again Mr B?

........Airlines are VERY dependent on the people who work for them.. . Probably more so than most industries as it is so highly regulated.



If you had any idea of what actually goes on behind the scenes to keep those lumps of metal and carbon fibre in the air then maybe you would be abit more appreciative of those employees.
Have another coffee and enjoy the rest of your day..

Totally agree. The employees are what set the airline apart. Lose their goodwill and you’ll lose your handsome profits Mr B

[dobby41]

Totally agree. The employees are what set the airline apart. Lose their goodwill and you’ll lose your handsome profits Mr B

Also, average wages are inflated with the amount of overtime and odd hours the people do. For many it isn't $120k for 40 hours/week.

[Snow Leopard]

Average wages inflated by the few at the top and their multiple million dollar salaries and bonuses.
They are not value for money.

[Beagle]

Beagle have you been a naughty dog again stirring up trouble with AIR employees ? Shame on you... Bad, Bad dog ! :blush: This is supposed to be a time of goodwill towards all... Back in the kennel with you ! The spotted nearly extinct one is right, its the top brass that are paid the really excessive salaries Mrs Beagle

[Raz]

Beagle have you been a naughty dog again stirring up trouble with AIR employees ? Shame on you... Bad, Bad dog ! :blush: This is supposed to be a time of goodwill towards all... Back in the kennel with you ! The spotted nearly extinct one is right, its the top brass that are paid the really excessive salaries Mrs Beagle

Well that good to hear, I wouldn't get out of bed for 200k and really how do get ahead on that kind of money:)

[Beagle]

Well that good to hear, I wouldn't get out of bed for 200k and really how do get ahead on that kind of money:)

By avoiding wasting money on high end BMW's is a good start :p

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/auckland-airport-its-the-busiest-day-of-the-year-so-expect-delays/ar-BBReu3B?ocid=spartandhp

[Benny1]

There you go Rodger... Those pesky naughty Engineers have settled...
You won't have to worry about them for another couple of years...

Hmm wonder who are up next year???
Long haul cabin attendants maybe??
Enjoy you Christmas mince pies!

[Beagle]

Thanks for confirming that Benny1. I won't take the bait on other possible industrial action because I can't remember when any other union last threatened to strike as it seems so many years ago :p
Have a good Christmas.

[winner69]

From somebody on the flight showing off their new neo thing. A few things didn’t work but this is hilarious

Steve Biddle (@stevebiddle)
24/12/18, 4:23 PM
The round of applause on the plane when they had to stop the safety video about 15 seconds in and do a manual demonstration because a screen wouldn't drop down pretty much sums up the entire video and people's attitudes towards it.

[kyanar]

I saw a Reddit thread which summed it up pretty well too. Person flying from AKL to ZQN Christmas day "so how was watching that 'safety' video" "pls no".

I think "pls no" is a pretty good summary. Seen it four times this last three weeks, and it absolutely hurts to think how much they spent on it (hundreds of talented kiwis?!?) after spending five minutes watching it, which is actually longer that the shortest flight in the world, which clocks in at about 2min 30sec.

[Beagle]

I have a great way that Chris Luxon can save some of his $30m. Bring back past safety video's that are confirmed classics for example the safety in paradise video was a great one and would be very suitable for the summer season. Why spend hundreds of thousands (millions ?), on new video's every year when we already have interesting and humorous safety video's ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0tkeGPG_8Q From memory the P.C. brigade killed this one off early. Bring it back I say !

[mikeybycrikey]

I remember flying on Virgin America in 2015 where the safety video was done in the form of a music video/song. At the time I appreciated that at least Air NZ didn't do songs. I didn't pay any attention because it was just music to me. A song isn't a great way to get me to pay attention to "important safety information", instead I just hum along to the tune.

And here we are 3 years later with Air NZ giving us a song that I just want to ignore. Or hum along to.

[Benny1]

I have a great way that Chris Luxon can save some of his $30m. Bring back past safety video's that are confirmed classics for example the safety in paradise video was a great one and would be very suitable for the summer season. Why spend hundreds of thousands (millions ?), on new video's every year when we already have interesting and humorous safety video's ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0tkeGPG_8Q From memory the P.C. brigade killed this one off early. Bring it back I say !

Those videos didn't feature a gender neutral singer unlike the latest one..
I use 'singer' in the widest possible context...
You would believe the amount of PC bull...t ruling this place these days....

I was on a flight earlier this month and I watched my fellow passengers around me while we were subjected to the video...
Most looked away put their own headphones back on or sat there with a look of disgust on their faces!

[Beagle]

Those videos didn't feature a gender neutral singer unlike the latest one..
I use 'singer' in the widest possible context...
You would believe the amount of PC bull...t ruling this place these days....

I was on a flight earlier this month and I watched my fellow passengers around me while we were subjected to the video...
Most looked away put their own headphones back on or sat there with a look of disgust on their faces!

I don't know how you can stand the absolute tsunami of politically correct nonsense these days to be honest.
Their latest "safety" video comes in for special mention in the latest Showshine annual "awards" presentation with special mention of more sick bags required.
https://www.nbr.co.nz/story/2018-review-shoeshine-doles-out-awards It would appear that multiple tsunami's of political correctness are about to be thrust upon the public as well whether they like them or not...I'm "so happy"

[Joshuatree]

In 12 Minutes, Everything Went Wrong (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/26/world/asia/lion-air-crash-12-minutes.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)

In 12 Minutes, Everything Went WrongLion Air Flight 610 crashed into the Java Sea shortly after takeoff from Jakarta in October.It should have never left the runway. This is how the pilots lost control. (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/26/world/asia/lion-air-crash-12-minutes.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)

[Raz]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/109635586/air-new-zealands-highestflyer-clocked-up-639000km-in-2018

1700 km per flight...must be one of the few people that uses AIR to Europe on a regular basis..thought most business travellers had flicked them for that route. Perhaps one of their staff:)

[Blue Skies]

As a shareholder, must admit I've changed my mind on that safety video when realised how much of a marketing tool they have become.
i.e. The Hobbit safety video has racked up over 2.7 million hits on You Tube, while the current safety video has already reached almost 2.3 million hits.
After production costs, that's an awful lot of free advertising, a lot of it reaching into Asian & US markets.

[iceman]

As a shareholder, must admit I've changed my mind on that safety video when realised how much of a marketing tool they have become.
i.e. The Hobbit safety video has racked up over 2.7 million hits on You Tube, while the current safety video has already reached almost 2.3 million hits.
After production costs, that's an awful lot of free advertising, a lot of it reaching into Asian & US markets.

I would not assume that all those looking at ¨trending¨videos on YouTube will necessairly jump online and buy a ticket with Air NZ. That cohort will buy the cheapest possible airfare which in most cases will not be Air NZ. I remain disgusted by this latest video, like most other passengers I´ve observed watching it on many flights, both domestic and international !!

[Benny1]

As a shareholder, must admit I've changed my mind on that safety video when realised how much of a marketing tool they have become.
i.e. The Hobbit safety video has racked up over 2.7 million hits on You Tube, while the current safety video has already reached almost 2.3 million hits.
After production costs, that's an awful lot of free advertising, a lot of it reaching into Asian & US markets.

While agree that there probably is some advertising merit to these videos... The whole point of them is to portray a safety message to the passengers on board..

This is the primary purpose of these videos, and if that is not happening then why not just play a plain Jane boring video and put all the production costs into a proper advertising campaign?

[Blue Skies]

While agree that there probably is some advertising merit to these videos... The whole point of them is to portray a safety message to the passengers on board..

This is the primary purpose of these videos, and if that is not happening then why not just play a plain Jane boring video and put all the production costs into a proper advertising campaign?

I guess because,
1) people avoid advertisements, they don't like advertising messages, they click off adverts as soon as poss.
and 2) to buy that kind of Reach & Frequency across NZ, Aust, UK, Asia, US etc would cost $millions, & why pay when you can get it for free?
So, lets name it/do a quirky safety video instead!

[Raz]

I guess because,
1) people avoid advertisements, they don't like advertising messages, they click off adverts as soon as poss.
and 2) to buy that kind of Reach & Frequency across NZ, Aust, UK, Asia, US etc would cost $millions, & why pay when you can get it for free?
So, lets name it/do a quirky safety video instead!

They need to keep the safety message clear..they will be slammed if there is an accident and passengers do not act appropriately in an emergency.

[pg0220]

Just watched the latest air nz safety video. I had no idea about the safety message it was trying to tell. Especially for those who are from non-English speaking countries, I believe many of them hardly can understand the message - air nz has a lot of passengers from different countries right? I recently had a flight with Qantas and their safety video was clear in message yet fun enough to watch.

[Ggcc]

Just watched the latest air nz safety video. I had no idea about the safety message it was trying to tell. Especially for those who are from non-English speaking countries, I believe many of them hardly can understand the message - air nz has a lot of passengers from different countries right? I recently had a flight with Qantas and their safety video was clear in message yet fun enough to watch.
I agree with that. Trying to be too hip and message lost about safety for the passengers

[Snow Leopard]

Given the amount of whinging here about the video I am genuinely surprised that the share price is still as far above fair value as it currently is :p

[Bobdn]

I'm guessing there are about three posters on this thread (including me) that actually own Air NZ shares (maybe less) so not surprising that the "anger" has not hit the share price.

I'm just really happy that oil is in the doldrums. What am I thinking...I'm hijacking the thread. Let's get back to the safety video.

[Ggcc]

Given the amount of whinging here about the video I am genuinely surprised that the share price is still as far above fair value as it currently is :p

It just means you could put a video of the all blacks playing tiddlywinks and AIR share price would still do well. They only put these videos on for legal requirements “health and safety”. Just a waste of money if no one understands the message and no one would know what to do if a plane did actually get into trouble.

[Blue Skies]

Latest Qantas safety video released 11 months ago, watched (almost) 259 thousand times on You Tube.
Latest AIR safety video released only about 8 weeks ago, already watched (almost) 2.3 Million times on You Tube.
They ain't watching it on You Tube for the safety messages. That's great marketing.

[dobby41]

They need to keep the safety message clear..they will be slammed if there is an accident and passengers do not act appropriately in an emergency.

People act inappropriately with or without good safety videos.
At a recent incident people did everything they could do wrong - and that was on a plane that had a 'standard' briefing.

[dobby41]

Latest Qantas safety video released 11 months ago, watched (almost) 259 thousand times on You Tube.
Latest AIR safety video released only about 8 weeks ago, already watched (almost) 2.3 Million times on You Tube.
They ain't watching it on You Tube for the safety messages. That's great marketing.

It is very good marketing!
All those people won't go out and buy a ticket on AIR but advertising is never a 100% hit.

[winner69]

Millions watched Mariah Carey and All I Want for Xmas is You on YouTube over the last week or so ...and it was played 11 million times on Spotify on Christmas Eve

[Sideshow Bob]

I'm always a little bemused at the inflight safety videos - how many people swim away from a plane crash. (the one on the Hudson the only one I can think of)

[peat]

Millions watched Mariah Carey and All I Want for Xmas is You on YouTube over the last week or so ...and it was played 11 million times on Spotify on Christmas Eve

I have no idea what this has to do with Air NZ but it reminded me of something I saw on Twitter telling us that the lyrics to this song were a very typical Mariah burn

"I don't want a lot for Christmas
...
...
All I want for Christmas
Is you"

[Beagle]

Okay...back to the shares. I think they are a reasonable hold at $3.10 for yield so I made a small top up at the close, my final investment decision for 2018.
The penultimate one earlier this morning was taking an small opening position in Kathmandu. I am impressed with their same store sales growth and positive talk of strong profit growth is in stark contrast to the commentary coming from HLG. PE's are not materially dissimilar. If the first half results impress I will double down, same goes for AIR.

[Raz]

People act inappropriately with or without good safety videos.
At a recent incident people did everything they could do wrong - and that was on a plane that had a 'standard' briefing.

And you point is..?? I'm sure the media will not be interested in picking up on all that if an accident occurs. The PR for the airline would be unworkable...they really need cross department input in decisions...classic marketing myopic.. and perhaps Winners point is 2.3 million hits in context is nothing much...

[winner69]

For you marketing gurus and for you that have been seduced by guru marketers and not forgetting those who confess to be accountants here’s a repost of a Tom Fishburne cartoon which in essence shows what 2.3 million YouTube views really means

[Beagle]

LOL Winner. At least their super expensive recent Antarctica video delivered something of a worthwhile message about the environment and was visually stunning and from memory got over 6 millions hits. The latest rubbish on the other hand...

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/cathay-pacific-says-it-will-honour-dollar23000-airfares-accidentally-sold-for-dollar1500/ar-BBRJYME?ocid=spartandhp
Good on them for doing the decent thing. Pretty sure in similar circumstances AIR has almost always apologised and simply cancelled the tickets and refunded the money which is poor form in my opinion.

[Beagle]

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1901/S00040/report-finds-serious-shake-up-needed-in-aviation-training.htm

I understand a while back that AIR reduced their experience level for new entrants from 1500 hours to 600 but that's still an awful lot of hours to acquire even after graduating from aviation college with a CPL.

[dobby41]

Another perspective on the strike that almost, but didn't, happen last year
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/sunday-star-times/20190106/281560881928343

[Jay]

Just flew AIR to Nelson and return - no safety video to watch so have not seen the latest one or bothered to search for it.
However good (limited for the flight) service - slightly better on return - both flights full both ways - maybe a few seats spare going -(2nd Jan).

[Beagle]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12176487
I hope they go with GE engines.

[Beagle]

Very, very sad. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12190561
I would like to think an airline with more established procedures would have taken more responsive action.

[dobby41]

Very, very sad. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12190561
I would like to think an airline with more established procedures would have taken more responsive action.

Nowhere does it mention what the boy actually died of.
You would think that 30min out you'd turn around but then I don't have the facts that the pilot had.

[mondograss]

Nowhere does it mention what the boy actually died of.
You would think that 30min out you'd turn around but then I don't have the facts that the pilot had.

It says he had an asthma attack which began 30 mins into the flight. It's not uncommon and they probably would have spent some time trying to treat him with what they have onboard (which is usually a fairly extensive kit). That would have taken some time and probably during which they passed the point of no return. Quite why they didn't divert to Tonga I'm not sure, that must have been on the cards as he died only 20 min from Samoa.

[gbogo]

Air NZ still got unexpected 787 engine issues. just received this email today for Sunday flight:

"Air New Zealand would like to advise that due to engineering requirements the Boeing 787-9 V2 aircraft scheduled to operate your flight, NZ87 from Auckland to Hong Kong, is no longer available..."

[Grimy]

I've flown to Japan a few times on the 787 and really like the plane, but more than happy to be on a 777 for our flights to/from Canada later this year.

[Beagle]

Air NZ still got unexpected 787 engine issues. just received this email today for Sunday flight:

"Air New Zealand would like to advise that due to engineering requirements the Boeing 787-9 V2 aircraft scheduled to operate your flight, NZ87 from Auckland to Hong Kong, is no longer available..."

May not have been with the engines...any engineering issue can happen, the key is to manage things safely and professionally like this https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12192136

[Bobdn]

Air NZ starting to wind up nicely as we get closer to the dividend.

[Beagle]

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/companies/air-nz-refunds-every-passenger-after-terrifying-turbulence-experience/ar-BBSHDn2?ocid=spartandhp
How they handled that makes me proud to be a shareholder. Really bad **** happens, its how you look after people that counts.

[winner69]

This is a pretty big earnings guidance downgrade. Beagles favourite method using mid point it’s a 16% reduction (best case view down 20%) -



The company now expects earnings before taxation of $340 million to $400 million for the year ended 30 June 2019. This includes the impact of the global Rolls-Royce engine issues.

The previously announced guidance was for underlying earnings before taxation of $425 million to $525 million, which excluded an estimated $30 million to $40 million impact of schedule changes prompted by the global Rolls-Royce engine issues.

http://nzx-prod-s7fsd7f98s.s3-website-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/attachments/AIR/329915/294185.pdf

[winner69]

Last year F18 npbt $540m ....this year maybe $340m

That’s some drop - 37% - wonder whats caused the $200m shortfall?

[couta1]

This is a pretty big earnings guidance downgrade. Beagles favourite method using mid point it’s a 16% reduction (best case view down 20%) -


The company now expects earnings before taxation of $340 million to $400 million for the year ended 30 June 2019. This includes the impact of the global Rolls-Royce engine issues.

The previously announced guidance was for underlying earnings before taxation of $425 million to $525 million, which excluded an estimated $30 million to $40 million impact of schedule changes prompted by the global Rolls-Royce engine issues.

http://nzx-prod-s7fsd7f98s.s3-website-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/attachments/AIR/329915/294185.pdf Sounds pretty Bearish.

[bull....]

massive downgrade this stocks going to get hammered

[bull....]

just checked the chart and what ya know it displays the 3 humped camel pattern, very bearish pattern.

[couta1]

Fair value around $2.60-$2.70 I reckon.

[bull....]

Fair value around $2.60-$2.70 I reckon.

could do a hlg and fall back around 2 long term av price range

[cyclist]

Given the new guidance assumes a lower average jet fuel cost than previous, in terms of demand levels falling away it is possibly even worse than it looks.