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BullishBear
10-03-2017, 07:42 AM
I am seriously considering standing in the coming election for the Opportunites Party, has anyone else kept an eye out on their policies? And what do you think. No personal attacks on Gareth please being in the public eye would challenge the best of men. So at least he is standing up for what he believes in and he is doing something about it. What about you?

fungus pudding
10-03-2017, 08:01 AM
I am seriously considering standing in the coming election for the Opportunites Party, has anyone else kept an eye out on their policies? And what do you think. No personal attacks on Gareth please being in the public eye would challenge the best of men. So at least he is standing up for what he believes in and he is doing something about it. What about you?

I think his universal basic income ideas will mean the party will never get off the ground. It's been slammed by economists from both sides of the fence, but more than that voters will not get their heads around it. So for the same reason social credit never got anywhere, the opportunity party will fail.
The original Act setup by Derek Quigley and Roger Douglas had some brilliant policies, yet almost nobody even glanced at the manifesto.
Furthermore Gareth Morgan does not have the X factor, which is not an attack on him; but compare him to Bob Jones in his hey day who was like the pied piper and attracted 12% of the vote for his NZ Party.
Stand by all means and good luck, but expect to lose your deposit.

BullishBear
10-03-2017, 08:37 AM
I think his universal basic income ideas will mean the party will never get off the ground. It's been slammed by economists from both sides of the fence, but more than that voters will not get their heads around it. So for the same reason social credit never got anywhere, the opportunity party will fail.
The original Act setup by Derek Quigley and Roger Douglas had some brilliant policies, yet almost nobody even glanced at the manifesto.
Furthermore Gareth Morgan does not have the X factor, which is not an attack on him; but compare him to Bob Jones in his hey day who was like the pied piper and attracted 12% of the vote for his NZ Party.
Stand by all means and good luck, but expect to lose your deposit.
Thanks for your comments FunPud.
Yes, I agree some work needs to be done on a number of fronts, but the fundamentals of this investment are sound.At least the TOP have a policy on the UBI. some very coherent and innovative thinking is occurring at TOP. Only a matter of time before the team cracks political code for success. Learned this from my deposit, looking to double down on this one.

fungus pudding
10-03-2017, 08:49 AM
Thanks for your comments FunPud.
Yes, I agree some work needs to be done on a number of fronts, but the fundamentals of this investment are sound.At least the TOP have a policy on the UBI. some very coherent and innovative thinking is occurring at TOP. Only a matter of time before the team cracks political code for success. Learned this from my deposit, looking to double down on this one.

I mean the deposit you have to put up to stand in the general election .:p However it won't break you. It's only $100 I think. But you'll be saying goodbye to it.:(

BullishBear
10-03-2017, 09:31 AM
I mean the deposit you have to put up to stand in the general election .:p However it won't break you. It's only $100 I think. But you'll be saying goodbye to it.:(
So can you see a better use for a innovative seeking $100.00bucks?

fungus pudding
10-03-2017, 10:53 AM
So can you see a better use for a innovative seeking $100.00bucks?

Yes. Drink it, eat it or smoke it.

BullishBear
10-03-2017, 11:32 AM
Yes. Drink it, eat it or smoke it.
Thanks fungus,don't Think that qualifies for innovative, but at least you Refrained form comming up with a stock that grew mushrooms as an alternative suggestion. Maybe a stock in custard or turning custard would have been funnier, anyhow mate cheers for the banter. ;)

macduffy
10-03-2017, 12:59 PM
Thanks fungus,don't Think that qualifies for innovative, but at least you Refrained form comming up with a stock that grew mushrooms as an alternative suggestion. Maybe a stock in custard or turning custard would have been funnier, anyhow mate cheers for the banter. ;)

Don't knock the mushroom grower. One of our wealthiest-ever politicians made his fortune thus.

;)

BullishBear
10-03-2017, 01:14 PM
Don't knock the mushroom grower. One of our wealthiest-ever politicians made his fortune thus.

;)No knocking from me MacD. love the stuff, puts hairs on your chest.

Sgt Pepper
10-03-2017, 03:10 PM
I think his universal basic income ideas will mean the party will never get off the ground. It's been slammed by economists from both sides of the fence, but more than that voters will not get their heads around it. So for the same reason social credit never got anywhere, the opportunity party will fail.
The original Act setup by Derek Quigley and Roger Douglas had some brilliant policies, yet almost nobody even glanced at the manifesto.
Furthermore Gareth Morgan does not have the X factor, which is not an attack on him; but compare him to Bob Jones in his hey day who was like the pied piper and attracted 12% of the vote for his NZ Party.
Stand by all means and good luck, but expect to lose your deposit.

FP
ref "social credit never got anywhere"

I am pretty sure you can recall, as do I, the 1981 General Election. Under FPP system Social Credit attained 21% of the vote ( 372000 votes). Imagine that sort of support under MMP.

As for Universal Basic Income, we have had it since 1975, its called National Superannuation, although you have got to be 65 to get it ( or so we thought)

fungus pudding
10-03-2017, 03:49 PM
FP
ref "social credit never got anywhere"

I am pretty sure you can recall, as do I, the 1981 General Election. Under FPP system Social Credit attained 21% of the vote ( 372000 votes). Imagine that sort of support under MMP.

As for Universal Basic Income, we have had it since 1975, its called National Superannuation, although you have got to be 65 to get it ( or so we thought)

You are correct about Social Credit, but we didn't have MMP, so we didn't have much to choose from other than the main two - they never got anywhere in spite of few alternatives. These days Morgan will line up with National Labour/Green Mana, Maori, Act, Conservatives, United future and Allah knows who else.
Superannuation is nothing like a UBI scheme as I'm sure you are well aware.

craic
10-03-2017, 04:45 PM
Social credit got a candidate elected to parliament, a feat that has eluded

percy
10-03-2017, 04:55 PM
Don't knock the mushroom grower. One of our wealthiest-ever politicians made his fortune thus.

;)

Only after marrying The Lord Mayor of London's daughter.!

fungus pudding
10-03-2017, 09:34 PM
Social credit got a candidate elected to parliament, a feat that has eluded

Didn't they have two? Gary Knapp and the randy old skirt chasing Bruce Betham?

GTM 3442
10-03-2017, 11:17 PM
Didn't they have two? Gary Knapp and the randy old skirt chasing Bruce Betham?

Social Credit were the protest vote party.

They had some policies, and some "true believers", but only ever made headway as a protest party gathering in protest votes. Rather like ACT.

The rise of a true protest party (The McGillicuddy Serious Party) put the writing on the wall, and they faded into a richly deserved oblivion. Once again, rather like ACT.

Vern Cracknell was the Rodney Hide of the 1960s, Bruce Beethan their Richard Prebble of the 1980s.

fungus pudding
11-03-2017, 12:54 AM
Social Credit were the protest vote party.

They had some policies, and some "true believers", but only ever made headway as a protest party gathering in protest votes. Rather like ACT.

The rise of a true protest party (The McGillicuddy Serious Party) put the writing on the wall, and they faded into a richly deserved oblivion. Once again, rather like ACT.

Vern Cracknell was the Rodney Hide of the 1960s, Bruce Beethan their Richard Prebble of the 1980s.

Act was far from a protest party in the first place. It was designed to give National a coalition partner, and had excellent policies to begin with. Quigley and Douglas were two very clever men, but as time went on the policies got dropped in the search for populism. Pity, but don't know if they'll ever get back to the number of MPs they once had.

GTM 3442
11-03-2017, 01:18 AM
Quigley and Douglas were two very clever men, but as time went on the policies got dropped in the search for populism . . .

A wonderful example of bi-partisan politics. One from each major party saying anything they think might get them elected.

Can't say fairer than that!

Joshuatree
11-03-2017, 05:56 AM
Social Credit were the protest vote party.



The rise of a true protest party (The McGillicuddy Serious Party) put the writing on the wall, and they faded into a richly deserved oblivion. Once again, rather like ACT.


McGillicuddy S P put up a candidate in my electorate in protest at Winstons capers( can't remember which one or which election atp). I had the honour of meeting the Majestic clever creative charismatic humourous candidate Graham Cairns as he was hammering up a hoarding outside my place many moons ago. They still have their medieval jousts from time to time and have cemented their place and enriched the history of NZ.:t_up:

fungus pudding
11-03-2017, 06:31 AM
A wonderful example of bi-partisan politics. One from each major party saying anything they think might get them elected.

Can't say fairer than that!

Pity you didn't listen to them.

GTM 3442
11-03-2017, 05:56 PM
Pity you didn't listen to them.

Oh fungus, why would anyone listen to the lunatic fringe? May as well listen to the Greens on economics as Rodney Hide on climate change.

Politics, as they say, is the art of the possible. Throwing your toys out of the cot and marching off to irrelevance and oblivion is not a strategy for success.

BullishBear
12-03-2017, 12:18 PM
National Super is the way we should pay for the UBI. Correct. http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/03/slash-super-to-pay-for-universal-basic-income-gareth-morgan.html But it is from the champions of the impossible rather than the slaves of the possible that that evolution draws its creative force. Barbara Wootton (1967, 279).

huxley
13-03-2017, 12:25 PM
I am seriously considering standing in the coming election for the Opportunites Party, has anyone else kept an eye out on their policies? And what do you think. No personal attacks on Gareth please being in the public eye would challenge the best of men. So at least he is standing up for what he believes in and he is doing something about it. What about you?

Good on you for considering standing. I like what I'm hearing so far from them, it'll be interesting to see what they can create over the next 6 months!

Aaron
21-03-2017, 11:56 AM
UBI might not be that original an idea. Did Finland ever introduce it? This French guy sounds a bit like BullishBear's man Morgan.
Lets focus on people instead of growth.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-20/happy-nations-don-t-focus-on-growth
But how socialist can you get before everything is controlled centrally. No worse than we are now I would imagine.

GTM 3442
22-03-2017, 01:16 AM
. . . how socialist can you get before everything is controlled centrally. No worse than we are now I would imagine.

Whatever makes you think that socialism requires central control?

That's more along the lines of the current pseudo-capitalist corporate state, monarchies like North Korea, or nascent dictatorships like Zimbabwe.

Just because oligarchic structures predominate in the pseudo-capitalist West doesn't mean that they are a prerequisite for all forms of political organization, or in all circumstances.

BullishBear
22-03-2017, 07:03 AM
This conversation raises an interesting question for me of which Political past Characters would make the optimum political personality the thoughts of Robert Muldoon & Joh Key comes to mind anyone else care to offer a composition?

fungus pudding
22-03-2017, 07:10 AM
This conversation raises an interesting question for me of which Political past Characters would make the optimum political personality the thoughts of Robert Muldoon & Joh Key comes to mind anyone else care to offer a composition?

Kiwi Keith Holyoake.

BullishBear
22-03-2017, 09:30 AM
Good on you for considering standing. I like what I'm hearing so far from them, it'll be interesting to see what they can create over the next 6 months!Thanks huxley!,
If anything I need to hold true to doing something about my views rather than just always being the couch critic. It is beyond me why these politicians don't have the guts or fortitude to actually do something meaningful when it comes to change. No one seems to have come up with the formula or format to affect serious change. That is what I am on the hunt to do. Learn the secrets of the trade then apply honesty and pourpose to the direction of prosperity with unity and abundance for all, it cannot be that hard.

BullishBear
22-03-2017, 09:42 AM
Kiwi Keith Holyoake.Thanks FP, just watching Men on the Hill and see Sir Holyoak compares Government to the Largest Corporation in New Zealand. I am always wary of Hierarchy, personally I think the future of government lies in restructuring democracy . Something along the lines of Liquid democracy (https://blog.liquid.vote/) or Delegative democracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy). combined with blockchain technology used in any technological processes. Cheers.

Aaron
18-07-2017, 12:46 PM
A bit more policy coming out on a youth UBI. TOP has been pretty quiet lately. Will the TOP party put up candidates in any electorates BullishBear? Are you standing in an electorate?
http://www.top.org.nz/
I reckon they need an AllBlack or well known celebrity to stand in a marginal electorate to get the dumb vote that votes on personalities and get a foot in the door with an electorate seat. Crossing the 5% threshold may be a big ask in the first year so my vote is likely to be wasted.
Not sure I agree with everything they come up with but definitely some change from the status quo. For example the clear water action plan. I see they haven't highlighted the intention to honour the treaty and give any money generated to Maori. Also I wonder if the power companies would need to pay anything as they don't actually take from the river and what is the market price for water. I imagine it is like the market price for air. Pretty low when its abundant but priceless if there is a shortage.

Amazing that Winston Peters is doing so well. He is like our own version of Donald Trump. I imagine he will be hoping that he isn't too successful after the elections otherwise he might have to actually do something.

Aaron
18-07-2017, 12:48 PM
Just remembered I wholly endorse TOP's proposal to raise the drug taking age to 20yrs. That is an easy policy to argue over.

jonu
18-07-2017, 01:01 PM
Thanks huxley!,
If anything I need to hold true to doing something about my views rather than just always being the couch critic. It is beyond me why these politicians don't have the guts or fortitude to actually do something meaningful when it comes to change. No one seems to have come up with the formula or format to affect serious change. That is what I am on the hunt to do. Learn the secrets of the trade then apply honesty and pourpose to the direction of prosperity with unity and abundance for all, it cannot be that hard.

I think you have touched on the difference between a career politician and an idealist who gets elected.
A Career pollies' first objective is to get re-elected, so that they can supposedly effect change. Of course in doing so they sell their ideals down the river, change nothing and take a fat salary.

RGR367
18-07-2017, 01:38 PM
This opportunistic party has just announced their unconditional basic income for youth (kid ages between 18 and 23), of $200 after tax a week. No questions asked. WOW!!! Don't cry for them NZ as this is after all just your tax money. Hate it when a political party only knew one thing, BRIBE.

peat
18-07-2017, 01:55 PM
This opportunistic party has just announced their unconditional basic income for youth (kid ages between 18 and 23), of $200 after tax a week. No questions asked. WOW!!! Don't cry for them NZ as this is after all just your tax money. Hate it when a political party only knew one thing, BRIBE.

My view is that TOP is not doing this as a bribe, they're doing it as they believe it is a socially effective policy.
I'm not saying it is, but Gareth strikes me as a rationalist who does what he thinks is the best thing to do, not a person seeking power at any cost to the country.

Aaron
18-07-2017, 02:00 PM
Thanks huxley!,
If anything I need to hold true to doing something about my views rather than just always being the couch critic. It is beyond me why these politicians don't have the guts or fortitude to actually do something meaningful when it comes to change. No one seems to have come up with the formula or format to affect serious change. That is what I am on the hunt to do. Learn the secrets of the trade then apply honesty and pourpose to the direction of prosperity with unity and abundance for all, it cannot be that hard.
Politicians will be limited by the voters who on the whole don't like change.

cyclist
18-07-2017, 02:02 PM
This opportunistic party has just announced their unconditional basic income for youth (kid ages between 18 and 23), of $200 after tax a week. No questions asked. WOW!!! Don't cry for them NZ as this is after all just your tax money. Hate it when a political party only knew one thing, BRIBE.

I think this is a great age group to target UBI at. It completely removes the incentive to not work (under the existing system you loose the benefit and can thus end up hardly better off if you work, whereas the UBI you keep regardless). It removes the dependence on parental income for Uni students (sorry, you get to start your working life with a much bigger financial handicap than your friend sitting next to you, because your parents earn a little too much, and are PAYE only so have no way or cheating the system).

For those who are already getting ahead (or struggling away trying to do the right thing), it could really help them to accelerate their financial position. Or if they squander it, a good chunk will find it's way back into the coffers via tax anyway.

Anger is building out there. Something needs to change. I think this is a great step in the right direction.

I actually really like it. (Was struggling with the idea of UBI in general, but I really think it makes sense for this age group). May well be the clincher for them getting my vote.

(Interesting, one commentator rightly pointed out the universal super is just another form of UBI for 65+ folk).

Disc: Have tended towards the far right over the years, but have for a long time felt uncomfortable with their bene bashing.

Aaron
18-07-2017, 02:06 PM
This opportunistic party has just announced their unconditional basic income for youth (kid ages between 18 and 23), of $200 after tax a week. No questions asked. WOW!!! Don't cry for them NZ as this is after all just your tax money. Hate it when a political party only knew one thing, BRIBE.
I'm with Peat on this one. Is a tax cut a bribe, is targeted social spending a bribe are the greens bribing beneficiaries. Probably but hopefully they also think it is in the best interests of the country as a whole first and foremost and their voter base as a secondary consideration.

p.s. well said cyclist.

artemis
18-07-2017, 06:35 PM
A test bed for a UBI would be the plan I reckon. Free money would get a lot of traction with that age group and their parents. Expect lots of positive anecdata, especially from UBI proponents who would be invested in keeping it the media ad infinitum.

The cost would be lost in the overall scheme of things so most people apart from the Taxpayers Union would not be all that aware of it.

fungus pudding
18-07-2017, 07:29 PM
I'll keep looking at the polls, but seems to me they haven't got a snowball's show of getting anywhere near 5%, and probably much much less. They won't take an electorate, so there'll be a few votes confined to the rubbish bin in this election. Could be this years internet party.

peat
18-07-2017, 09:44 PM
if it were fiscally feasible I actually quite like the idea of a UBI, however i really struggle with giving it to young people as cash. I'd prefer the subsidy to be provided via food, lodgings or education expenses. or some other tangible service maybe free doctors or dentists or public transport. Etc.etc Provide some of the basics so that they can do whatever they want , it might be productive, it might not.

As much as I hate to be cynical about youth I really do think that free cash money would subsidise indulgence. Or am I just self projecting ;)

artemis
19-07-2017, 07:08 AM
So Gareth has come out today saying that the $200 payment is a baby step towards a full UBI.

As others have said, I agree that TOP is unlikely to be in the Parliament this year, but he has started a bit of a debate in a few directions. Only a bit. There does not seem to be huge interest outside the beltway. Or within it.

Aaron
19-07-2017, 08:21 AM
As much as I hate to be cynical about youth I really do think that free cash money would subsidise indulgence. Or am I just self projecting ;)
Probably will for most kids, I know I pissed a lot of my student allowance up against the wall and regret the waste of money and brain cells now but in a way people have to learn their own lessons. The sooner they make mistakes the sooner they can take responsibility for themselves and their actions and decide what the best options in life are for them.

minimoke
01-08-2017, 06:34 PM
Policy No. 12. Is it going ot eb the registration of Cats and giving neigbpurs the opportunity to euthenase strays that wander onto their sections. Now my interest is sparked I'll have to look again at TOP. Despite my dislike of Morgan.

I've already decided where my electorate vote isnt going but must give though to the party vote.

Aaron
13-09-2017, 08:35 AM
I see some TOP electorate candidates in the herald this morning. Sadly I am not in Auckland Central so can't vote Mika. I still think an ex-all black or shortland street actor would appeal more to the masses.
TOP still gets my party vote though.
Bill can't buy me with his $1,000 for my pocket although it is nice that he will put the same $1,000.00 in everyone's pocket whether you need it or not. I don't think he understands how govt is supposed to work. People generally don't give a **** about each other so we have a central govt who we pay money to, to help out the struggling people we don't care about. Not suppress capital gain taxes and policies that help the wealthy and screw over the next generation. Not surprising to see national strongly supported by the Chinese. Anyone see the program last night about "who owns NZ". I reckon a NZ passport should be required to own land in NZ that way the older generation HAS to give a **** about the next generation as they can't just sell out to foreigners. They have to ensure the next generation is successful as well.

Bjauck
13-09-2017, 12:49 PM
... People generally don't give a **** about each other so we have a central govt who we pay money to, to help out the struggling people we don't care about. I am bit less cynical - I think people by and large do care about others from immediate family to extended family and friends and others. Also with strangers they do care, especially if issues such as poverty impinge on safety (increased crime) and environment and ease of living.


Not suppress capital gain taxes and policies that help the wealthy and screw over the next generation. With some wealthy people -those who have appreciating assets but which are earning a good income for example - I think TOP's reforms would help them too.


Not surprising to see national strongly supported by the Chinese. Anyone see the program last night about "who owns NZ". I reckon a NZ passport should be required to own land in NZ that way the older generation HAS to give a **** about the next generation as they can't just sell out to foreigners. They have to ensure the next generation is successful as well. It is baffling that unlike many other countries NZ does not have residential or NZ citizenship restricitions with respect to residential land especially.

Apart from British Commonwealth citizens (including NZers) who arrived some time ago, Australia also requires that voters in national elections should have Australian citizenship.

Joshuatree
13-09-2017, 11:51 PM
I agree .Even more baffling is the fact that IRD or NZ Govt have no records of how many foreign buyers have bought houses. The IRD is only int in tax to pay..There is no register of foreign buyers!!?.This has to change as it makes us vulnerable.

34,000 new arrivals last year. Its said that a 1% rise in pop results in an8% rise in house prices (Reserve bank).

30 years ago we opened up our housing supply to foreign money.

A trillion $ left China last year.Chinese are investing in particular in Auckland, Sydney and Vancouver
We are making it easy for rich people to come here through our Investor visa programmes. 121` multimillionaires have gained entry to NZ by putting $10 mill in NZ investments.

822 millionaires,545 from China have entered with cat 2 visas requiring $1.5 million i investment.

85% of these people were putting there money into safe Govt and corporate bonds rather than entreprenerial situations that would create new jobs. Unlike other commonwealth countries we haven't scrapped these because of the low returns. Aus and Gt Britain revised them after seeing very little in it for them but plenty for the investor.

Canada discovered that the Investor programme was a sham . Investor migrants declare a lower income then any other immigrant group ,LOWER then even the Refugees!
source "
Who Owns NZ now" by Bryan Bruce Housing crisis documentary pulls no punches on eve of election ... (https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/latest/96755666/housing-crisis-documentary-pulls-no-punches-on-eve-of-election&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjf_ZrdmaLWAhXKa7wKHe2HBIsQFggLMAI&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE7wheNZ1G0WyIzV-4t65OV4SQRhA)

Aaron
14-09-2017, 02:02 PM
Not surprising to see national strongly supported by the Chinese. Anyone see the program last night about "who owns NZ".
I thought National seemed closely aligned to Chinese interests selling off Auckland and Dairy farms and untaxed water to the Chinese as they do but I didn't realise they had a Chinese agent in their ranks.

I actually thought they were tight with china because Judith Collins husband's surname sounded Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/china-born-new-zealand-mp-yang-jian-denies-being-a-spy

Opposition parties should make more of this and appeal to the xenophobes except it would play into Winston Peter's hands and reading the paper this morning it appears that Gareth Morgan has a dislike for Winston.

Go Gareth but stick to policies not personalities even if it gets more votes.