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minimoke
01-08-2017, 06:02 PM
Given posters obvious inability to create subject specific threads I'm going to start creating a few.

So today. Very interesting. I'm thinking theres now a chance Labour will pick up a few more votes.

The possibility of a Labour / Green / NZ First has just improved significantly.

Since some of us see National as more left than central a good chance she may now pinch votes from that group.

Regardless I'm now interested in the 2017 elections!

fungus pudding
01-08-2017, 06:16 PM
Given posters obvious inability to create subject specific threads I'm going to start creating a few.

So today. Very interesting. I'm thinking theres now a chance Labour will pick up a few more votes.

The possibility of a Labour / Green / NZ First has just improved significantly.

Since some of us see National as more left than central a good chance she may now pinch votes from that group.

Regardless I'm now interested in the 2017 elections!

FWIW I think they're in with a chance. Winston will be in like a rat up a drainpipe but his price will be baubles galore; the main one being Winston getting Prime Minister role - and Labour and Greens will almost certainly accommodate that bauble. I can't imagine a bigger mess, but it's highly likely.

minimoke
01-08-2017, 06:23 PM
the main one being Winston getting Prime Minister role .
I had exactly the same thought

percy
01-08-2017, 06:30 PM
FWIW I think they're in with a chance. Winston will be in like a rat up a drainpipe but his price will be baubles galore; the main one being Winston getting Prime Minister role - and Labour and Greens will almost certainly accommodate that bauble. I can't imagine a bigger mess, but it's highly likely.

Expect the worst,and you are not surprised.
At present time I am about 70% invested in NZ,and 30% in Australia.
Maybe after the election I will be 30% NZ and 70% Australia.?

Baa_Baa
01-08-2017, 06:46 PM
Definitely has become interesting and no doubt Jacinda has charisma and charm otherwise lacking in previous Labour leaders post-Helen Clark.

Nevertheless, unless I'm mistaken it is the Party vote that counts in regards to which Party has the opportunity to form a government. In that event I cannot see Adern being so compelling as to move Labour into the preferred Party hence not having the opportunity to form a government.

Assuming National win the Party vote, I suspect the minor parties will fall over themselves to get into power by coalition, assuming also that National do not have the Party vote numbers to unilaterally form a government. It would follow that despite the outcome of the Maori, Seymour and Dunne Party's, that Winston is again kingmaker. He has always said that he will side with the Party that has the votes on the night to form a Government.

Still, finally there is something of interest in the forthcoming election and lead up to it. Adern has for the first time, for this voter, managed to simply and succinctly explain her Party's policies and her own values and views, in a manner which is comprehensible and worth considering. Good on her. Well done Labour, smart move but perhaps just not enough given the time remaining.

Today I look forward to the forthcoming campaign and the election, which I could not say yesterday.

minimoke
01-08-2017, 06:47 PM
Maybe after the election I will be 30% NZ and 70% Australia.?
I wouldnt be too defeatist. Regardless of result there will be opportunities. Be it National bribes or Labour / Green engineering opportunities will be there for more government we expenditure. Which means we have to be a bit smart on where we can invest.

I'm picking something from labour on the youth vote. Maybe reduced student loans which will give them more cash which they have to spend - perhaps on MOA

As for Australia - who can keep up? It was Rudd then Gilliard then Rudd then Abbott then Turnbull - all since 2010

minimoke
01-08-2017, 06:52 PM
Nevertheless, unless I'm mistaken it is the Party vote that counts in regards to which Party has the opportunity to form a government.
Not quite. Its one party will trot off to the Governor general saying they have an opportunity to lead a coalition. Theres no rules on which party that is. Its the one who is best at hammering out a deal. And there can be no doubt war-horse Winston has the most experience in this arena. Winston as PM and Jacinda as Deputy is not outside the realms of possibility. Thats the baubles sorted. After that there will be agreement on various policy supports

minimoke
01-08-2017, 06:57 PM
Assuming National win the Party vote, I suspect the minor parties will fall over themselves to get into power by coalition, assuming also that National do not have the Party vote numbers to unilaterally form a government. .
No-one wins the party vote. All they do is win a share of it. Arguably the one with the biggest share gets the biggest say. But as we have seen previously NZ first got no where near the biggest share but certainly had the biggest say in forming a government.

(Dont believe what Winston says pre-election - he'll sort it once hes seen how the cards fall)

fungus pudding
01-08-2017, 07:00 PM
I'm surprised eZ hasn't been along to tell us how Jacinda is wonderful and will give National a hiding. Then again, he's probably too busy helping Labour burn up their remaining funds banging up new signs.

ratkin
01-08-2017, 08:05 PM
National are toast, they lost their biggest asset when chicken Little resigned. Although once again turncoat Peters will probably side with National after the vote. Would not be the first time.

fungus pudding
01-08-2017, 10:15 PM
National are toast, they lost their biggest asset when chicken Little resigned. Although once again turncoat Peters will probably side with National after the vote. Would not be the first time.

He'll side with whichever party will appoint him P.M. Labour could, claiming his greater experience.

minimoke
02-08-2017, 06:12 AM
He'll side with whichever party will appoint him P.M. Labour could, claiming his greater experience.
We now have Donald Trump setting the bar of Statesmanship. Winston could be a shoe in.

It could introduce a new dynamic under MMP. A figurehead PM while retaining party leadership who would remain responsible for driving policy and directing the hurd in Select Committees and Question Time.

JA may not make a bad figurehead of a new Labour, especially with a Maori as deputy. Thats the Women and Maori vote - two demographics with more issues than the few remaining unionists. Add in youth so National are left with grumpy old white folk - and Winstons got that mob.

stones
02-08-2017, 06:39 AM
What do we think of Jacinda Ahern? I think the Labour party is in a state of desperation and will still be unable to come up with any feasible policy again. The fact the Maori members have taken themselves off the list is a joke and Hone to win Davis seat would be laughable. Jacinda will find herself on a hiding to nothing.

777
02-08-2017, 07:35 AM
Why would you vote for a party where the leader has regularly stated she does not want to be Prime Minister?

minimoke
02-08-2017, 07:46 AM
Why would you vote for a party where the leader has regularly stated she does not want to be Prime Minister?Perhaps for the same reason you might vote for a party whose leader took them to one of the all time worse defeats.

The answer is of course it is just politics - all these things need to be seen in the wider context of gamesmanship

Joshuatree
02-08-2017, 09:16 AM
Dont know enough about her but she seems to be the tonic Labour need. If she can communicate Labours great policies more effectively then Little, all good. Labour have many quality Mp's in waiting ,national have many tainted performers with credibility props. Time for a new broom. Rise up NZ you really can do better.

Joshuatree
02-08-2017, 03:13 PM
Im hearing $250,000 in donations now and 1000 new volunteers; the dam has burst:t_up:

Joshuatree
02-08-2017, 05:05 PM
Im now hearing $170,000, still an incredible endorsement for change. Little is the hero here.Hats off.

jonu
02-08-2017, 05:11 PM
Im now hearing $170,000, still an incredible endorsement for change. Little is the hero here.Hats off.


Which is it? 170k or 250k? Or 25K? What about the 1000 new volunteers? How many is it really? Where are you "hearing" it? Is it 100 volunteers? Are there any?

Surely this is how "fake news" grows its own myths. Who'd have thought...Jacinda Adern and Trump already have something in common!

Major von Tempsky
02-08-2017, 05:45 PM
Thinking of all the new volunteers...Gideon in the Old Testament came to mind. He ran a series of tests on his volunteers to see how steadfast they really were and greatly reduced the numbers to the really willing and devoted. I wonder how many of these johnny come latelies will still be there by the time of the Election particularly after they've experienced a few discouraging events, leaks, untoward happening etc.

Joshuatree
02-08-2017, 06:41 PM
Which is it? 170k or 250k? Or 25K? What about the 1000 new volunteers? How many is it really? Where are you "hearing" it? Is it 100 volunteers? Are there any?

Surely this is how "fake news" grows its own myths. Who'd have thought...Jacinda Adern and Trump already have something in common!

Sorry forgot to source, The most honest source in the country first from someone being interviewed on Radio NZ National and then later from the same source i think or it may have come from a far weaker national prone source TV1 who rely on funding a lot more. Its growing fast( hence the variation) so wouldn't surprise me if the $200,000 has been hit by now.:t_up:

Joshuatree
02-08-2017, 06:45 PM
Thinking of all the new volunteers...Gideon in the Old Testament came to mind. He ran a series of tests on his volunteers to see how steadfast they really were and greatly reduced the numbers to the really willing and devoted. I wonder how many of these johnny come latelies will still be there by the time of the Election particularly after they've experienced a few discouraging events, leaks, untoward happening etc.

Whats your point; some will inevitably drop away and more will come.;)

jonu
02-08-2017, 07:56 PM
Sorry forgot to source, The most honest source in the country first from someone being interviewed on Radio NZ National and then later from the same source i think or it may have come from a far weaker national prone source TV1 who rely on funding a lot more. Its growing fast( hence the variation) so wouldn't surprise me if the $200,000 has been hit by now.:t_up:

"Someone" is credible because they are being interviewed on National Radio? Oh dear JT, oh deary me.

Joshuatree
02-08-2017, 08:01 PM
Maybe its time to pull finger and verify for yourself.Contribute or just keep sniping your life away.:(

Joshuatree
03-08-2017, 06:57 AM
$300,000 I'm hearing on National radio this morning.Keep it coming folks:t_up:

jonu
03-08-2017, 07:48 AM
Maybe its time to pull finger and verify for yourself.Contribute or just keep sniping your life away.:(

I have no need to JT, I'm not the one throwing wildly varying numbers about. I'm particularly suspicious of the 1000 new volunteers figure. Nice round number that. Very quickly collated as well. I wonder where that was plucked from?

Joshuatree
03-08-2017, 08:27 AM
Suspicious as well; oh dear; start doing some sleuthing and verifying then, come on get to it wo/man. Be good to see what you find. and post on here. Ive reported what I've heard on national radio; the best source in NZ imo.

minimoke
03-08-2017, 08:51 AM
I have no need to JT, I'm not the one throwing wildly varying numbers about. I'm particularly suspicious of the 1000 new volunteers figure. Nice round number that. Very quickly collated as well. I wonder where that was plucked from?
Can't be a surprise. Boat loads of Indians coming in every week

minimoke
03-08-2017, 03:27 PM
I don't like her idea of 3 years free tertiary education. Education for adults has to be valued and adults should be prepared to contribute to that value.

minimoke
03-08-2017, 03:30 PM
I also don't like the idea of new affordable homes for first time buyers.

I figure a right of passsge on the old property ladder is to start with an affordable dunger and work up from there

fungus pudding
03-08-2017, 03:40 PM
I also don't like the idea of new affordable homes for first time buyers.

I figure a right of passsge on the old property ladder is to start with an affordable dunger and work up from there

You are absolutely right about that. I like to see new homes built to a reasonably high standard of design and construction - ideally for those who have built up equity. Every new house built adds to the pool and if it's not 'affordable' to first home buyers it simply doesn't matter, because it inevitably frees up a second hand home down the line.

jonu
03-08-2017, 03:49 PM
You are absolutely right about that. I like to see new homes built to a reasonably high standard of design and construction - ideally for those who have built up equity. Every new house built adds to the pool and if it's not 'affordable' to first home buyers it simply doesn't matter, because it inevitably frees up a second hand home down the line.

That logic doesn't stack up with a growing population being fuelled by immigration. The new housing stock can be snapped up by new arrivals

fungus pudding
03-08-2017, 04:00 PM
That logic doesn't stack up with a growing population being fuelled by immigration. The new housing stock can be snapped up by new arrivals

If that's the case at least they would have to 'snap up' a quality long life building equipped with up to date features. Every new dwelling is an extra one. Why build cheap homes for new immigrants to snap up! Nothing solved by building cheap housing. High quality duplex units would free up two existing older houses, or accommodate one immigrant :cool: and one existing home owner :p.

:t_up::t_up::t_up:

craic
03-08-2017, 04:10 PM
Why not Quonset/Nissan huts? Cheap - 4days to build - Then jack them up on posts, fil in the sides and call them Dutch Barns? I have lived in worse.

minimoke
03-08-2017, 04:14 PM
That logic doesn't stack up with a growing population being fuelled by immigration. The new housing stock can be snapped up by new arrivals
If they can't afford the housing why are they coming into the county?

jonu
03-08-2017, 04:19 PM
If they can't afford the housing why are they coming into the county?

I didn't say they couldn't Mini. I just pointed out that new stock doesn't automatically free up an older house elsewhere.

minimoke
04-08-2017, 05:15 PM
Impressive move today. Keep miteria away from a ministetial role but dont insist on resignation. I like it!

Joshuatree
04-08-2017, 06:00 PM
Yes , so far so very , very extraordinary good.Im looking forward to see how she communicates Labours policies next; fingers crossed but feeling positive ,which is a relief:ohmy:.

fungus pudding
04-08-2017, 07:02 PM
Yes , so far so very , very extraordinary good.Im looking forward to see how she communicates Labours policies next; fingers crossed but feeling positive ,which is a relief:ohmy:.

She's a socialist, so expect all sorts of things she offers to 'give' you, just as long as you pay for it.

Joshuatree
04-08-2017, 07:12 PM
Yeah maybe check the level of your moat, top it up grease your drawbridge cogs and lift the drawbridge and bathe in your golden hoard and eat golden marmalade on golden ingots; look after yourself only. good luck laying the golden eggs:t_up:

ratkin
05-08-2017, 04:16 AM
She's a socialist, so expect all sorts of things she offers to 'give' you, just as long as you pay for it.

Not a real socialist though, none are. I know she was head of socialist youth international, however daddy a top cop and diplomat, she looks to be doing quite nicely out of the capitalist system. International socialist youth these days is more about middle class kids promoting democracy, human rights and world peace. Far removed from Marxist ideals of a proletarian uprising. The means of production will stay squarely in the hands of the elite under a Jacinda leadership.

My concern is she might revisit the retirement age thing. Can see politics turning into a young versus old battle in the near future, and we can already see which side she is on. All those young dissafected voters blaming their lack of homes and jobs on baby boomers, need a leader to galvanise their vote. What better way than to make the boomers pay for their own retirement, just like the young are forced to pay for their own education.

fungus pudding
05-08-2017, 07:34 AM
Not a real socialist though, none are. I know she was head of socialist youth international, however daddy a top cop and diplomat, she looks to be doing quite nicely out of the capitalist system. International socialist youth these days is more about middle class kids promoting democracy, human rights and world peace. Far removed from Marxist ideals of a proletarian uprising. The means of production will stay squarely in the hands of the elite under a Jacinda leadership.

My concern is she might revisit the retirement age thing. Can see politics turning into a young versus old battle in the near future, and we can already see which side she is on. All those young dissafected voters blaming their lack of homes and jobs on baby boomers, need a leader to galvanise their vote. What better way than to make the boomers pay for their own retirement, just like the young are forced to pay for their own education.

One of my concerns is her concern about those who choose not to vote, or show no interest in voting. She may be inclined to bribe them out of their complacency by offering everyone else's money, as Clark and Cullen did. They certainly dragged out voters who were motivated only by their own self interest. While I accept our social welfare system is desirable and necessary for human dignity, I detest the way politicians use it as a bidding war for votes. I hope to see Jacinda distance herself and the party from the extreme Robin Hood policies emanating from the Labour camp from time to time when one of their lot has a brain explosion.
As far as those younger voters who don't vote - why worry? The day will come when they see how politics affects their lives, and their country. While I'm spouting on, I can't think of anything more ridiculous than Australian law which makes it an offence not to vote. Even those who cannot name one politician, not even the P.M, are compelled to line up to inflict their wisdom on their fellow citizens.

craic
05-08-2017, 08:14 AM
And what percentage of voters cast meaningful votes here? Take out those who vote National or Labour because that is their religion, imprinted on their brain from birth. Take out another large chunk of voters, often younger ones, who don't give a stuff about politics. A bus load or two of elderly in various stages of dementia and a few village idiots. The remainder decide your future. I've worked on a few elections and it's almost scary to see some of the voters. Some have to be taken through the whole process every single word, where to put their mark etc. and then returned to their carers. Even the Australian voters don't have to vote - they can do the same as some do here - spoil the vote by marking candidates in a way that cannot be counted.

minimoke
05-08-2017, 11:49 AM
. She may be inclined to bribe them out of their complacency by offering everyone else's money, as Clark and Cullen did.
Welcome to politics 101. Every party does it. National has just spent up large buying Carers votes by meddling in the good faith employment front - worse than Labour when it comes to setting National Awards!

tim23
06-08-2017, 02:56 PM
I think we can safely say thats changed now - you might want to prepare for the possibility of her being the next PM
Why would you vote for a party where the leader has regularly stated she does not want to be Prime Minister?

777
06-08-2017, 05:55 PM
I think we can safely say thats changed now - you might want to prepare for the possibility of her being the next PM

But has it changed? Win or lose , what is likely to happen after the election?

Joshuatree
06-08-2017, 06:54 PM
I have no need to JT, I'm not the one throwing wildly varying numbers about. I'm particularly suspicious of the 1000 new volunteers figure. Nice round number that. Very quickly collated as well. I wonder where that was plucked from?

Done some homework jonu?. $400,000 plus donations now and 1200 volunteers on TV One interview with Jacinda tonight on the Sunday programme.
And simon bridges claiming up to 20 min travel saving saving on the new Tunnel whereas when it first opened it was reported on the news 5 to 6 min savings; which to believe ehhh;)

winner69
06-08-2017, 07:47 PM
Done some homework jonu?. $400,000 plus donations now and 1200 volunteers on TV One interview with Jacinda tonight on the Sunday programme.
And simon bridges claiming up to 20 min travel saving saving on the new Tunnel whereas when it first opened it was reported on the news 5 to 6 min savings; which to believe ehhh;)

Jeez JT, you really into this Jacinta / Labour thing eh - I have never seen you so passionate / obsessed about anything else in the 7 years I have 'known' you!!!

Hope it doesn't reach the point when on September 23rd life becomes unbearable with Labour coming 2nd again

Take care mate - I'm getting worried for you

GTM 3442
06-08-2017, 08:12 PM
Fortunately, I vote according to principle, so have no need for opinion on Jacinta, Winston, Andrew, Bill, and the rest of them

Principle saves so much time and trouble.

Joshuatree
06-08-2017, 08:38 PM
Jeez JT, you really into this Jacinta / Labour thing eh - I have never seen you so passionate / obsessed about anything else in the 7 years I have 'known' you!!!

Hope it doesn't reach the point when on September 23rd life becomes unbearable with Labour coming 2nd again

Take care mate - I'm getting worried for you

I posted last on the 4th . I was watching "Sunday" tonight and got the latest details for Jonu to check as he was not believing the truth. Or more likely in shock at this turnaround.

In fact all i see is mainly spin from national and mainly honesty integrity and morals from labour. So many Ministers are tainted imo based on what they've done and not achieved and its wonderful to see a possibility opening up now to remove them and put in action to start to sort out everything from environment, to health to immigration to the mega property stuff up etc etc all under nationals watch?.Does one want to be rusted on to that?

"Ignorant just ignorant"; i agree GTM, am curious what principle means to you and where you can find it:confused:. I am excited to see a reinvigorated party chock full of principles and the incumbents abandoning all principles to try and stay in power.

elZorro
06-08-2017, 08:48 PM
I posted last on the 4th . I was watching "Sunday" tonight and got the latest details for Jonu to check as he was not believing the truth. Or more likely in shock at this turnaround.

In fact all i see is mainly spin from national and mainly honesty integrity and morals from labour. So many Ministers are tainted imo based on what they've done and not achieved and its wonderful to see a possibility opening up now to remove them and put in action to start to sort out everything from environment, to health to immigration to the mega property stuff up etc etc all under nationals watch?.Does one want to be rusted on to that?

"Ignorant just ignorant"; i agree GTM, am curious what principle means to you and where you can find it:confused:. I am excited to see a reinvigorated party chock full of principles and the incumbents abandoning all principles to try and stay in power.

Labour and Jacinda doing really well on social media.

https://theprogressreport.co.nz/2017/08/06/extraordinary-early-numbers-for-jacinda/

winner69
07-08-2017, 05:54 AM
Done some homework jonu?. $400,000 plus donations now and 1200 volunteers on TV One interview with Jacinda tonight on the Sunday programme.
And simon bridges claiming up to 20 min travel saving saving on the new Tunnel whereas when it first opened it was reported on the news 5 to 6 min savings; which to believe ehhh;)

Wrong JT ....need to do your homework better mate

Andrew tweeted 2,500 new volunteers since Tuesday with candidates reporting hundreds more across the country

winner69
07-08-2017, 07:11 AM
Labour and Jacinda doing really well on social media.

https://theprogressreport.co.nz/2017/08/06/extraordinary-early-numbers-for-jacinda/

If it comes down to a Facebook election we all know whose face will win

winner69
07-08-2017, 07:15 AM
Labour and Jacinda doing really well on social media.

https://theprogressreport.co.nz/2017/08/06/extraordinary-early-numbers-for-jacinda/

Trevor Mallard besides himself with excitment

Calm down Trevor before you harm yourself

elZorro
07-08-2017, 07:27 AM
https://twitter.com/grantrobertson1/status/894027796481138689/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthestandard.org.nz%2Fardern-effect-taps-pent-up-mood-for-change%2F

Interesting comparison of policy releases here.

Joshuatree
07-08-2017, 10:47 AM
Wrong JT ....need to do your homework better mate

Andrew tweeted 2,500 new volunteers since Tuesday with candidates reporting hundreds more across the country

Great to hear! Im the messenger;) reporting from reliable sources.. Thing is this is changing and snowballing so fast i can understand Jonu's questioning the figs.Some sea change:t_up:

winner69
07-08-2017, 10:51 AM
Great to hear! Im the messenger;) reporting from reliable sources.. Thing is this is changing and snowballing so fast i can understand Jonu's questioning the figs.Some sea change:t_up:

She frickin awesome this Jacinda eh

Go Jacinda

winner69
07-08-2017, 11:25 AM
Anybody know where I can get a Jacinda tee shirt

Still have my Kevin 07 one ...cool ....tee shirts and razzamataz worked for him back then

Minerbarejet
07-08-2017, 11:43 AM
JT you seem beside yourself with Ardern electrifying the elections. Do we assume that national is running on fossil fuel by default?
Labour's policies always needed someone to get their teeth into it.

Joshuatree
07-08-2017, 11:47 AM
Just going with the flow mate , enjoying the honeymoon and hope its got legs, think it has.
Labours policies will be listened to more now and presented and explained effectively for a better country for all and boy do we need this positive change.Seems like the incumbents have been going sepia for some time.

winner69
07-08-2017, 03:11 PM
Hey Joshua - this quip doing the rounds.

BREAKING: Julian Savea dropped from All Blacks, rampant @jacindaardern to take his slot on the left wing


Exciting stuff - she's frickin awesome this Jacinda

Joshuatree
07-08-2017, 05:48 PM
Desperate measures happening here for the Nats with their leftie, commy,socialist labels. Nothing to be afraid of folks.Things will change for the better for allNew Zealanders imo and I'm sure your wealth will be intact; a win/win/ win all-round.

tim23
07-08-2017, 06:10 PM
Go Jacinda - Labours best week in 9 years!

777
07-08-2017, 06:34 PM
One person does not make a government.

boysy
07-08-2017, 06:54 PM
like John key wasn't the government ?

Joshuatree
07-08-2017, 07:00 PM
Correct:) And Bill is a natural leader? nononononono oh no:blink:

777
07-08-2017, 07:28 PM
like John key wasn't the government ?

No. He had a team with him.

Who really has Jacinda got? The same lot Angry Andy had and they are the reason for Labours low polling.

You guys are over excited because of a "pretty" face. Enjoy your your couple of weeks of hope.

tim23
07-08-2017, 08:17 PM
Its better than hope - its going to happen Bills a goner

minimoke
08-08-2017, 06:24 AM
No matter what we think of her, looks like she isnt going to be Prime Minister. How on earth could Labour form a coalition with the Greens who are now showing their true colours. A bunch (excepting 2 with some moral backbone) of beneficiary and electoral fraud backers.

While Jacinda may galvanise the left of National I dont think she can (and nor should she try) to bring any Greens into Labour.

fungus pudding
08-08-2017, 06:26 AM
No. He had a team with him.

Who really has Jacinda got? The same lot Angry Andy had and they are the reason for Labours low polling.

You guys are over excited because of a "pretty" face. Enjoy your your couple of weeks of hope.

Pretty face? Just a female version of Tim Shadbolt.

Joshuatree
08-08-2017, 09:32 AM
Looking forward to the polls; 34% suggested/ hinted at by mathew hooten on national radio for labour this morn.

tim23
08-08-2017, 05:28 PM
Reckon Green voters might switch to Labour which brings NZ First in to play

minimoke
08-08-2017, 05:30 PM
Reckon Green voters might switch to Labour which brings NZ First in to play
Green voters with any moral fibre that is!

tim23
09-08-2017, 05:12 PM
Looks like Green voters are heading Labours way check out Newshub poll

winner69
09-08-2017, 05:18 PM
Looking forward to the polls; 34% suggested/ hinted at by mathew hooten on national radio for labour this morn.


Pretty close to 34% - momentum just starting to gain traction

She frickin awesome that Jacinda eh

minimoke
09-08-2017, 05:21 PM
Time for Jacinda to show some real steel and cut the rag tag bunch of moral-less leeches Greenies loose. Time to bin the MOU and let the dregs of our voting population float off to anonymity on a green iceberg.

The very worse thing NZ needs is a Labour led government with Greens filling in the spaces. Hate to say it but I think I'd prefer the TOP to do that job.

Joshuatree
09-08-2017, 06:29 PM
Pretty close to 34% - momentum just starting to gain traction

She frickin awesome that Jacinda eh

Awesome:t_up:

JBmurc
09-08-2017, 06:47 PM
Time for Jacinda to show some real steel and cut the rag tag bunch of moral-less leeches Greenies loose. Time to bin the MOU and let the dregs of our voting population float off to anonymity on a green iceberg.

The very worse thing NZ needs is a Labour led government with Greens filling in the spaces. Hate to say it but I think I'd prefer the TOP to do that job.

I understood Jacinda to be a closet greenie .... of course not on the campaign trail ....but just watch when she's welding power ....

tim23
10-08-2017, 05:56 PM
I see on 3 news that in latest poll that women are moving to Labour that drongo Mark Richardson has scored an own goal. Hes Nationals number two cheer leader behind Hosking having recently headed off Larry Williams and Jamie McKay - nice one Mark!

777
13-08-2017, 07:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSMYa-JOwKg

Do Leopards change their spots?

fungus pudding
13-08-2017, 07:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSMYa-JOwKg

Do Leopards change their spots?

No they don't. Frightening thought.

tim23
13-08-2017, 08:12 PM
Don't be frightened - get accustomed its probably on its way - you Tories frighten easily

Joshuatree
13-08-2017, 08:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSMYa-JOwKg

Do Leopards change their spots?

Whale Oil, the lowest of the low. Sorry to see you stooping too 777 .

minimoke
14-08-2017, 05:56 AM
Whale Oil, the lowest of the low. Sorry to see you stooping too 777 .
Dont shoot the messenger

777
14-08-2017, 07:16 AM
Whale Oil, the lowest of the low. Sorry to see you stooping too 777 .

He has more credibility than you do JT.

Do you think he created the video and all that she talks about is fake news?

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 08:53 AM
He is the dirtiest mudslinger ever, a mercenary for hire., financial gain, disgusting.Youve lowered the tone even further.

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 08:56 AM
Dont shoot the messenger

Messenger lol. Can you please fill us in re what Jacinda was supporting in 2009. i see consistency.

Social justice
Equality
Peace
Climate change
Migration
Selling of weapons
Struggle against poverty

fungus pudding
14-08-2017, 09:15 AM
Messenger lol. Can you please fill us in re what Jacinda was supporting in 2009. i see consistency.



Are you saying she's still like that?

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 09:29 AM
You haven't listened?
Social justice
Euality
Peace
Climate change
Migration
Selling of weapons
Struggle against poverty

fungus pudding
14-08-2017, 09:56 AM
You haven't listened?
Social justice
Euality
Peace
Climate change
Migration
Selling of weapons
Struggle against poverty

Anti-market sentiment. Falling somewhere between communism and extreme socialism - depending on whose definition you use.

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 11:01 AM
Nearly all current problems and why national have to go ; the fiddlers.

Major von Tempsky
14-08-2017, 12:04 PM
Which leaves JoshuaTree and the far more retiring and rarely seen these days EZ with a big looming problem.

If the polls are correct and JT and EZ etc have joyfully seized upon the parts they like and averred that they are true, then National and NZF (which is not a left wing party but a nationalist one) will end up in a coalition which can comfortably govern, what then JT and EZ? You are going to look very silly dangling in the wind clutching a bag of trite very obviously untrue slogans and assertions and desperately trying to work out what happened and how to pretend left is right, up is down, forward is back, black is white....

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 12:13 PM
Desperation is only on the national side atpit.Black and white; labour are doing really well atm. National and supporters are the stoopers; that says it all.

Beagle
14-08-2017, 02:11 PM
Capital gains tax to come in her first term and 10 cents a liter on petrol for Aucklanders. Beware !

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 03:37 PM
More stooping par for the course another misinforming feeble fear monger BEWARE just like his posting elsewhere.:)

BlackPeter
14-08-2017, 04:34 PM
More stooping par for the course another misinforming feeble fear monger BEWARE just like his posting elsewhere.:)

JT, I think you take with posts like this not just yourself but as well your political friends down. I guess - who really would want to elect a government which seems to be supported by people who behave like kindergarten bullies?

I know - there is a quite revolting example in the states where the larger name caller and his hateful friends made the race, but look what the voters over there got for their vote. I really think you underestimate the intelligence of the NZ voter base (unless you want to damage the left vote, in this case are your post quite clever :p).

Look, most of the people you are attacking here voted during their lives for a number of different parties (left, right and centre - well, I did) trying to find always the best party for the context they lived in, and they are receptive to convincing arguments, but not to kindergarten type bullying.

Could we lift the standard of this discussion?

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 04:37 PM
Well STOP lowering it then with all the misinformation,COMRADE , ,TAX rubbish etc etc. Worst sort of insinuation that joyce and hoskins would be proud of desp[erate stooping mud imo.

elZorro
14-08-2017, 04:39 PM
JT, I think you take with posts like this not just yourself but as well your political friends down. I guess - who really would want to elect a government which seems to be supported by people who behave like kindergarten bullies?

I know - there is a quite revolting example in the states where the larger name caller and his hateful friends made the race, but look what the voters over there got for their vote. I really think you underestimate the intelligence of the NZ voter base (unless you want to damage the left vote, in this case are your post quite clever :p).

Look, most of the people you are attacking here voted during their lives for a number of different parties (left, right and centre - well, I did) trying to find always the best party for the context they lived in, and they are receptive to convincing arguments, but not to kindergarten type bullying.

Could we lift the standard of this discussion?

Yes, we could, if you and some others would bolster your outrageous, generalised, right-wing/far right comments with facts occasionally.

BlackPeter
14-08-2017, 04:47 PM
Well STOP lowering it then with all the misinformation,COMRADE , ,TAX rubbish etc etc. Worst sort of insinuation that joyce and hoskins would be proud of desp[erate stooping mud imo.


Yes, we could, if you and some others would bolster your outrageous, generalised, right-wing/far right comments with facts occasionally.

EZ back - and nothing better you have to say? I guess I would not have expected better from JT ... but from you? Any chance you could provide evidence for your insinuations? I guess the qualifier "outrageous" might depend on the viewpoint, but when did I make "right-wing/far right comments"? and this without facts at hand?

Examples please ...

elZorro
14-08-2017, 04:52 PM
EZ back - and nothing better you have to say? I guess I would not have expected better from JT ... but from you? Any chance you could provide evidence for your insinuations? I guess the qualifier "outrageous" might depend on the viewpoint, but when did I make "right-wing/far right comments"? and this without facts at hand?

Examples please ...

Most recent:
Who really would want to elect a government which seems to be supported by people who behave like kindergarten bullies?

Who does that refer to? Labour MPs? Here's another idea - have a look at Stats NZ and just check up on which main party did the best in running the crown finances in their most recent 9 year terms.

BlackPeter
14-08-2017, 04:58 PM
Most recent:

Who does that refer to? Labour MPs?

It refers to and reacts to the post I responded to. Is JT a Labour MP?

777
14-08-2017, 05:28 PM
It refers to and reacts to the post I responded to. Is JT a Labour MP?


Must be. He acts like one.

tim23
14-08-2017, 07:55 PM
What does that mean? Maybe honesty and integrity?

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 08:50 PM
It refers to and reacts to the post I responded to. Is JT a Labour MP?

Flattery will get you nowhere; thats one of the last occupations i would want, close to being a Proctologist.Do you work for Crosby/Textor and are you Joyces personal investment advisor?;)

BlackPeter
14-08-2017, 09:05 PM
Flattery will get you nowhere;

Actually - it might bring you and your cause much further than just constantly kicking everybody into the guts. But I guess just a bit of politeness, common decency and some listening before you talk might suffice ;);

Obviously - if you prefer to move onto people's "ignore" lists ... just keep doing what you seem to do best ...

Joshuatree
14-08-2017, 09:13 PM
Aah so you don't deny it ,it figures.:t_up:

winner69
15-08-2017, 03:21 PM
Hey EZ - these are awesome

https://twitter.com/ash_stewart_/status/896624591011008512

It's merchandise like this that wins elections. - not policies

Your Andrew doesn't seem very creative as a campaign manager

minimoke
15-08-2017, 05:11 PM
Hey EZ - these are awesome

https://twitter.com/ash_stewart_/status/896624591011008512

It's merchandise like this that wins elections. - not policies

Your Andrew doesn't seem very creative as a campaign manager

Onesies might be a better option for their target voters

iceman
15-08-2017, 05:14 PM
Onesies might be a better option for their target voters

They are too busy trying to undermine the Australian Government at the moment. What a twit Chris Hipkins is.

Baa_Baa
15-08-2017, 05:43 PM
Hey EZ - these are awesome

https://twitter.com/ash_stewart_/status/896624591011008512

It's merchandise like this that wins elections. - not policies

Your Andrew doesn't seem very creative as a campaign manager

Wouldn't look so good on a woman, those Jacinda eyes would be a bit 'bulgy'. That is the most tasteless garment I can recall seeing for a long long time.

You taking the p1ss winner, maybe focus on Labour's policies if you like them and want a change of government. Let's hear what you really think. Jacinda is a good mouth piece, best since Clark, focussed on getting Labour policies on the election agenda. Good on her. Might not win the election, but finally some credibility.

Beagle
16-08-2017, 01:18 PM
https://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/labour-talks-capital-gains-tax-poll-talks-down-peter-dunne-greens-drop-gear

So far we have
1. Capital gains tax confirmed
2. Regional 10 cent per liter petrol tax for Aucklanders
3. Water taxes
How are they going to pay for their $2 billion bribe to students ? Bring in a national superannuation surtax ?
I'd say its a given there will be other taxes too and also a given that we won't see any expansion of the tax income bands so modest income earners struggling to make a living on $60K will still be paying a whopping 30% tax rate on their income above $48,000 as well as 15% GST a real tax rate of 45%.

Robin Hood Government coming ? Tax the life out of middle income people earning $60K - $80K with no kids because they're the so called rich, right ?
Truth be known because at that income level with no kids you're entitlements are basically zero, they're struggling to put a roof over their head and food on the table just like all the beneficiaries getting ever more generous Labour handouts.

fungus pudding
16-08-2017, 01:23 PM
https://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/labour-talks-capital-gains-tax-poll-talks-down-peter-dunne-greens-drop-gear

So far we have
1. Capital gains tax confirmed
2. Regional 10 cent per liter petrol tax for Aucklanders
3. Water taxes
How are they going to pay for their $2 billion bribe to students ? Bring in a national superannuation surtax ?
I'd say its a given there will be other taxes too and also a given that we won't see any expansion of the tax income bands so modest income earners struggling to make a living on $60K will still be paying a whopping 30% tax rate on their income above $48,000 as well as 15% GST a real tax rate of 45%.

Robin Hood Government coming ? Tax the life out of middle income people earning $60K - $80K with no kids because they're the so called rich, right ?
Truth be known because at that income level with no kids you're entitlements are basically zero, they're struggling to put a roof over their head and food on the table like all the beneficiaries getting ever more generous Labour handouts.


She's flexing her socialist muscles already.

Beagle
16-08-2017, 02:32 PM
More stooping par for the course another misinforming feeble fear monger BEWARE just like his posting elsewhere.:)

Actually there is a capital gains tax coming and I have posted a link above especially for people like you who are wearing blinkers and in complete denial.
Did you really imagine the lolly scramble of bribes she's handing out would come from money that rains down from the sky ?

tim23
16-08-2017, 04:38 PM
The twit is Barnaby Joyce- the story was coming anyway.
Onesies might be a better option for their target voters

elZorro
16-08-2017, 05:20 PM
Hey EZ - these are awesome

https://twitter.com/ash_stewart_/status/896624591011008512

It's merchandise like this that wins elections. - not policies

Your Andrew doesn't seem very creative as a campaign manager

Look mate, we're having enough trouble getting the new signage, let alone clothing.. I think the signs should be a bit more tasteful. The signs were getting changed in 2 days, well it's more like 2 weeks. Should be soon.

Heaps of good comments out there for Jacinda. Even diehard National voters thinking twice, might vote Labour this time. What does that mean for the swing vote?

Joshuatree
16-08-2017, 05:28 PM
Actually there is a capital gains tax coming and I have posted a link above especially for people like you who are wearing blinkers and in complete denial.
Did you really imagine the lolly scramble of bribes she's handing out would come from money that rains down from the sky ?

Happens everytime,the stale fear mongering tax rubbish. We have to pay taxes and we can't read that Nat biased link you posted. Other 1st world countries have a capital gains tax, whats your point; too much money? Buy another launch remember they are a black hole to maintain. Robin Hood?lol thank you for laugh of the day. Maybe take yourself to Bills fake boot camp that will never happen for the 2nd time! . Have you noticed all the national handouts happening ; will any happen; or just quietly disappear like the re 12 northland bridges that were promised upgrades;Zero! look at the underfunded DHB's disasters unfolding; thank key and national for that and the housing prob, congested roads , infrastructure etc etc because he plucked the low fruit; increased immigration and also made NZ one of the slave routes (fact) of the world let alone 40,000 homeless, 24,000 in your back yard.

"Blinkers and complete denial "; surprise me and take them off!
Great to see national are running scared and disappointing but not surprised to see they are stooping crosby/textor style again, a little trump like imo..

Joshuatree
20-08-2017, 09:42 PM
Ardern is Labour's 'new hope' 2 hours ago (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/08/patrick-gower-jacinda-ardern-is-labour-s-new-hope.html)

777
21-08-2017, 07:43 AM
JT if you are a typical example of the left then I hope they don't get anywhere near the treasury benches.

Just remember socialism is great until you run out of everyone else's money.

Comrade Jacinda will take us down this path.

fungus pudding
21-08-2017, 07:56 AM
JT if you are a typical example of the left then I hope they don't get anywhere near the treasury benches.

Just remember socialism is great until you run out of everyone else's money.

Comrade Jacinda will take us down this path.

Nothing surer - assisted by the dismals, David Parker and Twyford and the possibilty of a 3rd dismal, one Greg O'Connor. I'm having a word with Allah to ensure they don't make it. .

Joshuatree
21-08-2017, 09:01 AM
777 just remember not to change your spots and keep voting the same way you have for 50 years and dress the same each day regardless of the weather, weddings , funerals and baptisms, situations.Watch for that bogeyman under your bed and think like being a private in the army; do what you're told ,don't think about it as you may develop original thought and thats not good. Don't think about making NZ a better place .

777
21-08-2017, 09:18 AM
777 just remember not to change your spots and keep voting the same way you have for 50 years and dress the same each day regardless of the weather, weddings , funerals and baptisms, situations.Watch for that bogeyman under your bed and think like being a private in the army; do what you're told ,don't think about it as you may develop original thought and thats not good. Don't think about making NZ a better place .

Tell me JT, are you old enough to vote or is it your school morning break? Your posts are so childish it is confusing.

If , not when, Labour had something to offer then I may change, but nothing that has been said in the past two weeks under Jacinda has impressed me at all and your posts sure don't help.

fungus pudding
21-08-2017, 09:20 AM
777 just remember not to change your spots and keep voting the same way you have for 50 years and dress the same each day regardless of the weather, weddings , funerals and baptisms, situations.Watch for that bogeyman under your bed and think like being a private in the army; do what you're told ,don't think about it as you may develop original thought and thats not good. Don't think about making NZ a better place .

Currently there is no better place on earth than NZ, which means we have no model to follow.

couta1
21-08-2017, 09:22 AM
Tell me JT, are you old enough to vote or is it your school morning break? Your posts are so childish it is confusing.

If , not when, Labour had something to offer then I may change, but nothing that has been said in the past two weeks under Jacinda has impressed me at all and your posts sure don't help. A combination of too much spare time and alcohol I'd say. Jacinda just flavour of the month currently, she has to be able to turn all that hot air into substance.

winner69
21-08-2017, 09:40 AM
A combination of too much spare time and alcohol I'd say. Jacinda just flavour of the month currently, she has to be able to turn all that hot air into substance.

Couts me old mate - substance don't matter in next few weeks, its all about excitment, enthusiasm and rhetoric

'Substance' will only matter when the populus realise there is no ' substance' and they're even worse than the current lot.

Joshuatree
21-08-2017, 11:09 AM
Be int to add up the spendup . Im thinking national have a lot more carrots there.;)

Joshuatree
21-08-2017, 11:16 AM
"Climate change is my generation's nuclear free moment" Jacinda Ardern

At last someone to be proactive on this, fantastic:t_up:

winner69
21-08-2017, 11:48 AM
"Climate change is my generation's nuclear free moment" Jacinda Ardern

At last someone to be proactive on this, fantastic:t_up:

Awesome eh

No deep sea oil exploration off NZ now

That ludicrous decision to allow sea bed mining off the West Coast will now be over turned

Joshuatree
21-08-2017, 03:35 PM
Haha yeah right who's afraid of the big bad fool; puffery, like your humour tho:). Who's making up big spendup promises all over the place right now; $billions and billions fake promises?.National; desperadoes spooked by shadows into some quicksand.

cyclist
21-08-2017, 03:38 PM
Couts me old mate - substance don't matter in next few weeks, its all about excitment, enthusiasm and rhetoric

'Substance' will only matter when the populus realise there is no ' substance' and they're even worse than the current lot.

Different politics, but you could have been talking about Trump there. Actually, you could have been talking about any large western political party on the planet!

Major von Tempsky
21-08-2017, 03:54 PM
Lipstick on a pig. Sow there!

iceman
21-08-2017, 08:45 PM
"Climate change is my generation's nuclear free moment" Jacinda Ardern

At last someone to be proactive on this, fantastic:t_up:

Proactive ? What is she going to do other than talk the talk ? Whatever she does in the unlikely event she becomes PM will not make one iota of difference to climate change

couta1
21-08-2017, 08:57 PM
Proactive ? What is she going to do other than talk the talk ? Whatever she does in the unlikely event she becomes PM will not make one iota of difference to climate change Exactly, NZ can only make 0.2% difference to global emissions, and to achieve that, the economy would have to be destroyed in the process. All this talk just strokes her followers egos and gives then the warm fuzzies. PS-No I don't believe in the greatest scam this century.

777
21-08-2017, 09:01 PM
But think of the tax that can be extracted from the dumb public as greater fool has alluded to.

Joshuatree
21-08-2017, 09:56 PM
Proactive ? What is she going to do other than talk the talk ? Whatever she does in the unlikely event she becomes PM will not make one iota of difference to climate change

Thats exactly like saying my vote doesn't count. Try setting an example and having a glass half full.

Joshuatree
21-08-2017, 09:58 PM
But think of the tax that can be extracted from the dumb public as greater fool has alluded to.

looks like national are promising to spend a hell of a lot more to me.

iceman
21-08-2017, 10:38 PM
Thats exactly like saying my vote doesn't count. Try setting an example and having a glass half full.

Rubbish. I am setting an example in my own life as much as I can and proud of it. I don' t need the Government to tell me how to do it with ineffective measures or high taxes that achieve nothing to counter climate change. Jacinda has no idea what she is talking about on this matter, just populist slogans

blackcap
22-08-2017, 07:43 AM
Jacinda has no idea what she is talking about on this matter, just populist slogans

However it may get her elected. Bill needs to up his game.

BlackPeter
22-08-2017, 07:47 AM
However it may get her elected. Bill needs to up his game.

Fair point. This is certainly not the time for National to rest on their laurels.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 08:33 AM
Rubbish. I am setting an example in my own life as much as I can and proud of it. I don' t need the Government to tell me how to do it with ineffective measures or high taxes that achieve nothing to counter climate change. Jacinda has no idea what she is talking about on this matter, just populist slogans

You've described the national party well re populist. Look at what they are throwing around now ; chucking fake promises of billions here and there(i like the lowered doctors fees though) in desperation; its sickening but par for the course. A panic attack with the realisation that they could lose the election.

Labour aren't wasting tax payer money in bribes like nat(10 new roads ,remember the 10 bridges promise?).No they are fresh and have zeal and want to have two terms(or more) means to do the right thing for all of us. Riding on the laurels of Infrastructure spend doesn't cut it.

Don't you see the excitement is all about a party who wants to do it wheres bill and co are totally trying to cover their butts and stay in power; its not right and NZ is seeing this.

Lets face it the nats are STALE. Been there too long.Time for a change for the better.

Interesting bill using the word 'stability' a lot. apparently its a crosby/textor recco .Theresa May used it too.

You come across as if all that matters is looking after number one; sad.We can all be bigger than that; give and you will receive.

BlackPeter
22-08-2017, 09:04 AM
...
give and you will receive.

LOL - you are right:

Give your vote to Labour and you will receive multiple large new tax bills ...

I guess at the moment it is nice to hear Jacinda promising all the lollies - what she forgets to mention is who is going to pay for her election bribes. ...

While some of the new policies (including a royalty for water) make in my view sense to discuss .... am I wondering what Labour did over the last nine years? They would have had all the time of the world to complete and cost a sensible tax package and campaign based on that, but instead they are now throwing some highly immature ideas (water tax, carbon tax, capital tax, capital gains tax, congestion tax, increased income tax - screw anybody above average income) into the ring and expect voters to elect them based on wearing the brighter makeup ... and trust them?

I guess Labour must be measured at their past performance and they have been for nine years a highly inefficient and inept opposition party. Sure - they managed to pick after numerous failed attempts finally a leader making from time to time some sensible noises (well, more than their past two leaders together, but this is a very low bar), but how is this qualifying them for becoming a competent government?

Voters don't just want a new face and fancy promises without any clue how Labour intends us to pay for all its election bribes. Could we get some real and costed policies, please? Maybe the next three years in opposition could give Labour some more time to do their overdue homework?

jonu
22-08-2017, 09:20 AM
LOL - you are right:

Give your vote to Labour and you will receive multiple large new tax bills ...

I guess at the moment it is nice to hear Jacinda promising all the lollies - what she forgets to mention is who is going to pay for her election bribes. ...

While some of the new policies (including a royalty for water) make in my view sense to discuss .... am I wondering what Labour did over the last nine years? They would have had all the time of the world to complete and cost a sensible tax package and campaign based on that, but instead they are now throwing some highly immature ideas (water tax, carbon tax, capital tax, capital gains tax, congestion tax, increased income tax - screw anybody above average income) into the ring and expect voters to elect them based on wearing the brighter makeup ... and trust them?

I guess Labour must be measured at their past performance and they have been for nine years a highly inefficient and inept opposition party. Sure - they managed to pick after numerous failed attempts finally a leader making from time to time some sensible noises (well, more than their past two leaders together, but this is a very low bar), but how is this qualifying them for becoming a competent government?

Voters don't just want a new face and fancy promises without any clue how Labour intends us to pay for all its election bribes. Could we get some real and costed policies, please? Maybe the next three years in opposition could give Labour some more time to do their overdue homework?

Good points BP. Adern was there before. So were the rest of them. They have been an appalling opposition

fungus pudding
22-08-2017, 09:46 AM
Good points BP. Adern was there before. So were the rest of them. They have been an appalling opposition

Please note. Her name is Ardern - I'm only pointing that out because when I misspelt it, eZ almost had a heart attack.

BlackPeter
22-08-2017, 09:54 AM
Please note. Her name is Ardern - I'm only pointing that out because when I misspelt it, eZ almost had a heart attack.

Somehow interesting. Apparently she is already for the third term in parliament. So how come people don't know how to spell her name properly?
Maybe we didn't see her name often enough spelled in the press? Did she do anything worthwhile during her long opposition years which was worthwhile to report about?

BlackPeter
22-08-2017, 10:01 AM
Inspired by my recent post I did a google search and found - this:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/03/the_achievements_of_jacinda_ardern.html

A long history of achieving - Nothing. Food for thought.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 10:04 AM
LOL - you are right:

Give your vote to Labour and you will receive multiple large new tax bills ...

I guess at the moment it is nice to hear Jacinda promising all the lollies - what she forgets to mention is who is going to pay for her election bribes. ...

While some of the new policies (including a royalty for water) make in my view sense to discuss .... am I wondering what Labour did over the last nine years? They would have had all the time of the world to complete and cost a sensible tax package and campaign based on that, but instead they are now throwing some highly immature ideas (water tax, carbon tax, capital tax, capital gains tax, congestion tax, increased income tax - screw anybody above average income) into the ring and expect voters to elect them based on wearing the brighter makeup ... and trust them?

I guess Labour must be measured at their past performance and they have been for nine years a highly inefficient and inept opposition party. Sure - they managed to pick after numerous failed attempts finally a leader making from time to time some sensible noises (well, more than their past two leaders together, but this is a very low bar), but how is this qualifying them for becoming a competent government?

Voters don't just want a new face and fancy promises without any clue how Labour intends us to pay for all its election bribes. Could we get some real and costed policies, please? Maybe the next three years in opposition could give Labour some more time to do their overdue homework?

Its interesting that you are blind to way you spread your insinuation slime as fact and yet attack others for it.

You really sound like a crosby/textor professional to me. You ask for facts and then continue your misinformation slime veneer over everything. Its national who are throwing around taxpayers money disrespectfully atm not labour. I ts labour who want the best for all new zealanders not a privileged few. But nothing to fear in your nest; you will still do well as percy suggests. You are sounding so conceited and selfish; you are a great example of whats being pushed away in front of a broom as we type.

winner69
22-08-2017, 10:08 AM
Its interesting that you are blind to way you spread your insinuation slime as fact and yet attack others for it.

You really sound like a crosby/textor professional to me. You ask for facts and then continue your misinformation slime veneer over everything. Its national who are throwing around taxpayers money disrespectfully atm not labour. I ts labour who want the best for all new zealanders not a privileged few. But nothing to fear in your nest; you will still do well as percy suggests. You are sounding so conceited and selfish; you are a great example of whats being pushed away in front of a broom as we type.

BlackPeter - I think you just got 'told off'

Don't take it to heart

BlackPeter
22-08-2017, 10:08 AM
Its interesting that you are blind to way you spread your insinuation slime as fact and yet attack others for it.

You really sound like a crosby/textor professional to me. You ask for facts and then continue your misinformation slime veneer over everything. Its national who are throwing around taxpayers money disrespectfully atm not labour. I ts labour who want the best for all new zealanders not a privileged few. But nothing to fear in your nest; you will still do well as percy suggests. You are sounding so conceited and selfish; you are a great example of whats being pushed away in front of a broom as we type.

Amazing how low you are prepared to set your standards. Just keep spitting out your poison - it is good to see Labour's real face ...

couta1
22-08-2017, 10:09 AM
Inspired by my recent post I did a google search and found - this:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/03/the_achievements_of_jacinda_ardern.html

A long history of achieving - Nothing. Food for thought. Amazing how hot air and frenzy can blind the Sheeple to reality.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 10:33 AM
She has experienced 11 portfolios, she has done her apprenticeship. she has caught kiwis attention like no other.There is enthusiasm and interest out there we haven't seem for a long time. And it is time.

Beagle
22-08-2017, 10:58 AM
LOL - you are right:

Give your vote to Labour and you will receive multiple large new tax bills ...

I guess at the moment it is nice to hear Jacinda promising all the lollies - what she forgets to mention is who is going to pay for her election bribes. ...

While some of the new policies (including a royalty for water) make in my view sense to discuss .... am I wondering what Labour did over the last nine years? They would have had all the time of the world to complete and cost a sensible tax package and campaign based on that, but instead they are now throwing some highly immature ideas (water tax, carbon tax, capital tax, capital gains tax, congestion tax, increased income tax - screw anybody above average income) into the ring and expect voters to elect them based on wearing the brighter makeup ... and trust them?

I guess Labour must be measured at their past performance and they have been for nine years a highly inefficient and inept opposition party. Sure - they managed to pick after numerous failed attempts finally a leader making from time to time some sensible noises (well, more than their past two leaders together, but this is a very low bar), but how is this qualifying them for becoming a competent government?

Voters don't just want a new face and fancy promises without any clue how Labour intends us to pay for all its election bribes. Could we get some real and costed policies, please? Maybe the next three years in opposition could give Labour some more time to do their overdue homework?

100% agree with you. Okay she's a fresh young face but in terms of her performance and policies to date, a classic case of lipstick on a pig !

jonu
22-08-2017, 11:23 AM
100% agree with you. Okay she's a fresh young face but in terms of her performance and policies to date, a classic case of lipstick on a pig !

Beagle...you naughty puppy

fungus pudding
22-08-2017, 11:28 AM
Beagle...you naughty puppy

Quite so Beagle. In the interest of political correctness please refer to turd polishing as porcine cosmetics.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 11:43 AM
The only pigs are the incumbents doing anything to keep their snouts in the trough. Sour milk from the supporting piglets. a lot of squealing going on around here.:t_up:

Beagle
22-08-2017, 11:46 AM
Quite so Beagle. In the interest of political correctness please refer to turd polishing as porcine cosmetics.

I don't agree with much Gareth Morgan says apart from the aforementioned sentiment :) http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/gareth-morgan-doubles-down-with-lipstick-pig-billboards/ar-AAqvlz3?li=AA59FU&ocid=spartandhp

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 11:49 AM
Yep animal farm all over again.:t_up:

winner69
22-08-2017, 11:52 AM
The only pigs are the incumbents doing anything to keep their snouts in the trough. Sour milk from the supporting piglets. a lot of squealing going on around here.:t_up:

Where you going to shift to after the election JT - surely you will have to leave the country when the pigs get another term. it will be unbearable for you.remaining.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 12:03 PM
I prefer kiwi bacon:D

minimoke
22-08-2017, 12:21 PM
The only pigs are the incumbents doing anything to keep their snouts in the trough. Sour milk from the supporting piglets. a lot of squealing going on around here.:t_up:
This should be pasted to a greens thread. Their policy for today = capital gains tax. Nothing to do with the environment but about trying to keep their snouts in the trough.

fungus pudding
22-08-2017, 12:35 PM
This should be pasted to a greens thread. Their policy for today = capital gains tax. Nothing to do with the environment but about trying to keep their snouts in the trough.

And satisfy their envy.

Beagle
22-08-2017, 01:37 PM
Watch out Joshuatree. Jasinda is young and her recent $2 billion bride for students shows which way she leans from a generational perspective. You don't have to stretch the imagination too far to imagine that all those rich retired people on a superannuation "benefit" when they don't need it should have a whopping big national superannuation surtax applied such that anyone earning over say $50,000 inclusive of salary and investment income isn't entitled to super ! Far better off supporting all those homeless people and drug addicts to get off the streets...those rich old people don't need the money after all do they !..oh and while we're at it why don't we make up some more policy "on the fly", what about a new wealth or inheritance tax or I know, lets bring back death duties again at 45% of people's estate, people don't need the money when they're dead do they ! She has to pay for all these bribes somehow and don't for one minute think you'll not suffer the consequences !

Major von Tempsky
22-08-2017, 01:44 PM
When's herbook coming out? Will it be in as comics?

cyclist
22-08-2017, 02:02 PM
Rubbish. I am setting an example in my own life as much as I can and proud of it. I don' t need the Government to tell me how to do it with ineffective measures or high taxes that achieve nothing to counter climate change. Jacinda has no idea what she is talking about on this matter, just populist slogans

Well, I think I understand your point iceman, even if JT is struggling. I'm in the same boat. Generally believe that mankind can't carry on as we are and expect there to be no consequences, so are quietly doing what I can to model a less consumer intensive path (good for the wallet too!). Change will only come from the grass roots. Govt's will only ever pay lip service to this issue (the Paris climate accord being an excellent recent example).

p.s. what a charming thread this is ....

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 02:17 PM
I would look after those closer to home if i was you, Roger
.

couta1
22-08-2017, 03:11 PM
I wish this woman would talk about something of substance instead of all these fringe subjects like climate change and becoming a republic. Here's an idea, how about giving us the heads up on how the economy will survive these changes.

fungus pudding
22-08-2017, 03:24 PM
I wish this woman would talk about something of substance instead of all these fringe subjects like climate change and becoming a republic. Here's an idea, how about giving us the heads up on how the economy will survive these changes.

She's not saying much at all. They're waiting for the tax working group before giving details. That is plainly ridiculous, and simply a way of withholding details until after the election. They know what the results of the tax working group will be - because they'll pick the working group. You can order up any result you want with that sort of report.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 06:56 PM
The govt books are opened tomorrow; lets await them, prudent, not all these multibillion $ phantom carrots stooping national are doing.

iceman
22-08-2017, 09:21 PM
You got it cyclist. JT more interested in hurling abuse at all posters that don't share his views, which is most posters 🙃


Well, I think I understand your point iceman, even if JT is struggling. I'm in the same boat. Generally believe that mankind can't carry on as we are and expect there to be no consequences, so are quietly doing what I can to model a less consumer intensive path (good for the wallet too!). Change will only come from the grass roots. Govt's will only ever pay lip service to this issue (the Paris climate accord being an excellent recent example).

p.s. what a charming thread this is ....

Joshuatree
23-08-2017, 07:04 AM
Correcting all the misinformation from a few posters who have lowered the bar. But thats how national plays imo.Dirty inaccurate politics.
Cyclst i agree the govt is only playing lip service , fiddling. Grassroots plus parties that believe in the environmental issues will be far stronger united to effect change. Simple and we have those parties right here right now.

cyclist
23-08-2017, 08:04 AM
Correcting all the misinformation from a few posters who have lowered the bar. But thats how national plays imo.Dirty inaccurate politics.
Cyclst i agree the govt is only playing lip service , fiddling. Grassroots plus parties that believe in the environmental issues will be far stronger united to effect change. Simple and we have those parties right here right now.

To expand on my thoughts, I guess I'd rather see them focus on smaller things that would make a genuine difference. An example would be dismantling a lot of the rules around food production which tend to severely disadvantage small (often organic) local producers, and at the same time tend to protect agribusiness and supermarkets from competition. Consumers are smart. We don't need to be protected (food safety) to the extent the heavily lobbied politicians think we do. If a party like the greens focused on those sorts of issues, and left social policy to the middle ground, I would vote for them in a heartbeat. Hard to make a political sound-bite out of though.

Govt responses to climate change on the other hand, just tend to saddle society with additional taxes and expensive complexity, while achieving nothing.

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 11:19 AM
The govt books are opened tomorrow; lets await them, prudent, not all these multibillion $ phantom carrots stooping national are doing.

Well they are open and there's a few bob there. That'll have Robertson rubbing his hands in glee and tears of joy streaming down Taxcinda's cheeks.
They'll have it spent by the end of the day, and back into plotting how to grab more from the taxpayer.

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 12:05 PM
Didn't take long before the Kermit party hit the news with their plans on how to spend the surplus. Taxcinda is working on her list, as well as her list of how to get more - particularly from the rich prix.
The truth of it all is that we have been overtaxed. We should now be seeing all parties talking tax cuts.

minimoke
23-08-2017, 01:58 PM
Govt responses to climate change on the other hand, just tend to saddle society with additional taxes and expensive complexity, while achieving nothing.
The only meaningful way nz can make an impact on climate change is to exterminate every Living animal on the land and allow the Forests to regenerate. You wont hear any policies from anyone Advocating the truth in this matter. Instead they prefer policies on wealth redistribution.

Joshuatree
23-08-2017, 04:12 PM
The govt books are opened tomorrow; lets await them, prudent, not all these multibillion $ phantom carrots stooping national are doing.

Labour ruling out income tax increases after looking at the books, no top tax increases ,you can stop checking the height of your moats:) labour can fund from existing surpluses etc. Fear less.

cyclist
23-08-2017, 05:07 PM
Labour ruling out income tax increases after looking at the books, no top tax increases ,you can stop checking the height of your moats:) labour can fund from existing surpluses etc. Fear less.

Very astute. I suspect there are many who would benefit from the National tax cut who would rather it didn't happen. I am one of those. Quite happy with tax rates where they presently are, but wouldn't like to see them higher either.

777
23-08-2017, 06:06 PM
Labour ruling out income tax increases after looking at the books, no top tax increases ,you can stop checking the height of your moats:) labour can fund from existing surpluses etc. Fear less.

Had nothing to do with looking at the books. They realised before that that the amount gathered would be so small it was not worth the votes that could be lost.

All irrelevant anyway because they won't be in power. The mood is already reversing as the voters start looking at the wishy washy incomplete policies.

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 07:08 PM
Had nothing to do with looking at the books. They realised before that that the amount gathered would be so small it was not worth the votes that could be lost.

All irrelevant anyway because they won't be in power. The mood is already reversing as the voters start looking at the wishy washy incomplete policies.

Let's hope you're right. They're a frightening lot. Any polls to back that up?

Joshuatree
24-08-2017, 09:53 AM
Had nothing to do with looking at the books. They realised before that that the amount gathered would be so small it was not worth the votes that could be lost.

All irrelevant anyway because they won't be in power. The mood is already reversing as the voters start looking at the wishy washy incomplete policies.

Now the books have been opened and the decks cleared; there is a fair wind filling Labours sail . Policies are fantastic for ALL new zealanders.:t_up:

jonu
24-08-2017, 10:01 AM
Now the books have been opened and the decks cleared; there is a fair wind filling Labours sail . Policies are fantastic for ALL new zealanders.:t_up:

Unless you own a house in Auckland where prices will collapse over the foreign ownership rule they want to bring in. Might be good for the non-house owner.

Unless you are accused of a sex crime which means you will be toast without a fair trial.

Unless you are a power company share holder (not labour's policy, but that of their likely bedmate NZ First and tarred by association)

Just the first few to spring to mind

Joshuatree
24-08-2017, 10:12 AM
Wow you sound like a jack in the box with those fearful impulsive , incorrect springing thoughts. NZ first have been trashed and embarrassed by that gaff. Immigration needs to lessen we all know that; house prices collapse? Well they've gone along way up far too far , we know that; one of the most expensive places on earth per capita; they have to come back a bit .

Who fiddled danced around the housing issue and didn't have the cajoles to do something about it; now its unaffordable for most with unrealistic cost of living there and unaffordable rent, jammed up roads and record numbers of homeless etc etc.etcetcetc. Nothing to fear everything to gain.

BlackPeter
24-08-2017, 10:24 AM
Wow you sound like a jack in the box with those fearful impulsive , incorrect springing thoughts. NZ first have been trashed and embarrassed by that gaff. Immigration needs to lessen we all know that; house prices collapse? Well they've gone along way up far too far , we know that; one of the most expensive places on earth per capita; they have to come back a bit .

Who fiddled danced around the housing issue and didn't have the cajoles to do something about it; now its unaffordable for most with unrealistic cost of living there and unaffordable rent, jammed up roads and record numbers of homeless etc etc.etcetcetc. Nothing to fear everything to gain.

You didn't really read jonu's post before you responded - did you? But hey, keep hurling insults at anybody who does not agree with your political views and shooting the messenger before you aim .... it all helps voters to recognise Labour's real face.

minimoke
24-08-2017, 10:25 AM
Immigration needs to lessen we all know that;.
You for one should understand immigr as tion will not lessen under labour.

There policy is for when govt sets large contracts the winning bid will be based on the one that creates jobs in NZ. They are also going to build 100, 000 affordable homes.

With unemployment at less than 5% this means it is essentially the unemployable out of work.

So where will Labour get the labour to meet its policy objectives? Immigrants!

peat
24-08-2017, 10:33 AM
she seemed to be able to handle Hoskings well enough this morning with good confident replies

jonu
24-08-2017, 10:40 AM
Wow you sound like a jack in the box with those fearful impulsive , incorrect springing thoughts. NZ first have been trashed and embarrassed by that gaff. Immigration needs to lessen we all know that; house prices collapse? Well they've gone along way up far too far , we know that; one of the most expensive places on earth per capita; they have to come back a bit .

Who fiddled danced around the housing issue and didn't have the cajoles to do something about it; now its unaffordable for most with unrealistic cost of living there and unaffordable rent, jammed up roads and record numbers of homeless etc etc.etcetcetc. Nothing to fear everything to gain.

Where was I impulsive and incorrect JT?

You're right NZ First have been trashed for those comments, but they are Labour's likely coalition partner. I noted a drop in house prices would suit those who don't already own, but you said Labour's policies were good for all NZers. You can't have it both ways...sticking it to one section of the population, while all the time telling them take the medicine...it's good for them

Joshuatree
24-08-2017, 06:09 PM
They will drop immigration thats a big difference and an important plank. Pump up Apprenticeships for one.

winner69
27-08-2017, 07:43 AM
For a while during the rugby last night I was thinking the ABs need to get rid of the old guard

Jacinda for All Blacks coach I reckon

fungus pudding
27-08-2017, 08:04 AM
For a while during the rugby last night I was thinking the ABs need to get rid of the old guard

Jacinda for All Blacks coach I reckon

For the ball I reckon.

Major von Tempsky
28-08-2017, 08:56 AM
Immigration is the principal driver of economic growth in NZ. Could Labour afford to completely trash NZ's economic growth?

Joshuatree
28-08-2017, 10:05 AM
Immigration is also the principal problem . Like i said national have picked all the low hung fruit by letting far too many people in which has contributed hugely to

House prices rising making it unaffordable for many esp first home buyer. Prop speculators from overseas another prob.

Rents getting excessive because of it so Workers, teachers, police ,careworkers etc etc etc can't afford to live Auckland etc without compromising their living standards so long commutes , moretraffic congestion, or living at home or cramming into the many substandard rentals. national aregiving away some cash to try and keep them there, a bandaid only.

Homeless increasing hugely. More people than I've ever seen sleeping in shop fronts in my city for example. 40,000 plus all the rest undocumented.

Health system breaking due to underfunding and all the extra people coming in. 3 DHB's in debt and more to come. Waiting lists for waiting lists, people dying of cancer etc before a delayed op, people going blind waiting for eye ops.

NZ is officially a slave labour destination now with many immigrants in our orchards with passports withheld by the contractors , earning a few dollars and hour until they have paid off many thousands to the people that have got them the work permits etc. half the kiwifruit orchards in the B O P didn't have the proper documentation for these workers for example. i understand its been rife for years throughout Nz in many picking, pruning, fish processing ,harvesting industries.

Despite nationals low hung sure fire short term winner, lots of infrastructure projects to make things , and stats look rosy we still have major problems because of the immigration esp in auckland. Its been like putting out fire with gasoline!

Labour REDUCING immigration and targeting more of the people we need, builders etc is the sensible thing to do but its going to take years to fix up nationals fiddling incremental fancy dress parties.

BlackPeter
28-08-2017, 10:36 AM
Immigration is also the principal problem . Like i said national have picked all the low hung fruit by letting far too many people in which has contributed hugely to

House prices rising making it unaffordable for many esp first home buyer. Prop speculators from overseas another prob.

Rents getting excessive because of it so Workers, teachers, police ,careworkers etc etc etc can't afford to live Auckland etc without compromising their living standards so long commutes , moretraffic congestion, or living at home or cramming into the many substandard rentals. national aregiving away some cash to try and keep them there, a bandaid only.

Homeless increasing hugely. More people than I've ever seen sleeping in shop fronts in my city for example. 40,000 plus all the rest undocumented.

Health system breaking due to underfunding and all the extra people coming in. 3 DHB's in debt and more to come. Waiting lists for waiting lists, people dying of cancer etc before a delayed op, people going blind waiting for eye ops.

NZ is officially a slave labour destination now with many immigrants in our orchards with passports withheld by the contractors , earning a few dollars and hour until they have paid off many thousands to the people that have got them the work permits etc. half the kiwifruit orchards in the B O P didn't have the proper documentation for these workers for example. i understand its been rife for years throughout Nz in many picking, pruning, fish processing ,harvesting industries.

Despite nationals low hung sure fire short term winner, lots of infrastructure projects to make things , and stats look rosy we still have major problems because of the immigration esp in auckland. Its been like putting out fire with gasoline!

Labour REDUCING immigration and targeting more of the people we need, builders etc is the sensible thing to do but its going to take years to fix up nationals fiddling incremental fancy dress parties.

Shame - I wouldn't like to live in the New Zealand you describe. Funny though that there are still that many people who want to get here. Maybe it is all just in your head?

Scaremongers rarely get votes - and immigration haters are certainly not better. Are you sure you are still in line with the positive Labour campaign Jacinda promised? Better read her memos - otherwise it might be people like you gambling Labour's election chances away ...

Joshuatree
28-08-2017, 11:18 AM
So you have no rebuttal but your usual inuendo insinuations.

"SHAME " "SCAREMONGER" "HATERS" "GAMBLING" by Black Beter

Reducing immigration not eliminating. Not like nationals 10,000 % exaggeration re a water charge, 10c a litre when its actually 1 or 2 cents a 1000 litres.All good. In our city we have been paying for water for a while user pays, user conserves and protects.All good. rise up NZ.

BlackPeter
28-08-2017, 11:44 AM
So you have no rebuttal but your usual inuendo insinuations.

"SHAME " "SCAREMONGER" "HATERS" "GAMBLING" by Black Beter

Reducing immigration not eliminating. Not like nationals 10,000 % exaggeration re a water charge, 10c a litre when its actually 1 or 2 cents a 1000 litres.All good. In our city we have been paying for water for a while user pays, user conserves and protects.All good. rise up NZ.

You only get what you deserve ... maybe read your posts in future before posting them ;)

This is not the only country in the world where a group of populists tries to blame a group of "others" for all the problems in the world. You lost your job? Must be the fault of the others. You can't afford to buy a house? Who's fault could it be but the others. Don't get a doctors appointment? Obviously the fault of the others. A bad crop? Must be the fault of the others. "homelessness, slave work" Who else could we blame but the others?

In some societies the "others" have been the Jews, or people with a different skin colour or a different accent - and you are clearly targeting immigrants.

Do you know a better word than "shame" to describe this attitude?

Bjauck
28-08-2017, 12:47 PM
...
Reducing immigration not eliminating.... A non-emotive debate on a sustainable level of immigration does need to be had, especially for a country which has such unaffordable housing. For example, can Auckland develop and build the required infrastructure and housing to cater for its population growth as a result of the government's current immigration settings? There are some who are quick to level accusations of racism and other slurs whenever moderation of immigration is merely suggested, which makes a sensible debate difficult.

New Zealand housing most unaffordable in the world - The Economist
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html

BlackPeter
28-08-2017, 02:51 PM
A non-emotive debate on a sustainable level of immigration does need to be had, especially for a country which has such unaffordable housing. For example, can Auckland develop and build the required infrastructure and housing to cater for its population growth as a result of the government's current immigration settings? There are some who are quick to level accusations of racism and other slurs whenever moderation of immigration is merely suggested, which makes a sensible debate difficult.

New Zealand housing most unaffordable in the world - The Economist
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html

Do we need a debate on immigration? Absolutely. I am just opposed to populists who used to be immigrants themselves and now claim that all of NZ's problems are the immigrants fault.

What we as well need to consider in this debate is however that we might need some more immigrants to build the houses the existing population so sorely needs. For some reason not enough Kiwis seem to have the skills and the motivation to do the hard work necessary on a building site. Look at the ways too slow Christchurch rebuild and think how much slower it would have been without all the immigrants we imported to do the hard work. We need the immigrants to keep the limited number of future proof industries going (Software and Electronics) and for some sad reason do we even need the immigrants to keep our main industry (agriculture) going. Southland farms are dependant on Filipinos, they don't get enough Kiwi workers prepared to get out early on a cold Southern morning to milk the cows (for good money, may I say) - and the horticulture industry anywhere in NZ can't do without people from the islands and lots of young tourists doing the picking and pruning.

In this situation is it not just morally questionable, but plain stupid to make anti-immigration policies to gain the votes of some backward looking hypocrites who easily forget that without immigration they wouldn't be here themselves. Even the birds migrated at some stage to NZ (without immigration policy), and so did the Morioris, the Maoris and most of the people with European or Asian descent. Lets never forget that all of us either are immigrants or are descendents of immigrants.

artemis
28-08-2017, 03:29 PM
A non-emotive debate on a sustainable level of immigration does need to be had, especially for a country which has such unaffordable housing. For example, can Auckland develop and build the required infrastructure and housing to cater for its population growth as a result of the government's current immigration settings? There are some who are quick to level accusations of racism and other slurs whenever moderation of immigration is merely suggested, which makes a sensible debate difficult.

New Zealand housing most unaffordable in the world - The Economist
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html

We have an example in Christchurch. A lot of effort and dollars, and property prices / rents are dropping as supply and demand even out.

Bjauck
28-08-2017, 04:23 PM
Do we need a debate on immigration? Absolutely. I am just opposed to populists who used to be immigrants themselves and now claim that all of NZ's problems are the immigrants fault. Which are those populists, who were immigrants, that claim ALL of NZs problems are the fault of immigrants per se as opposed to the current volume of immigration being a significant or lesser contributory factor in some of the issues facing NZ? JT above suggested a reduced and more targeted migration policy. This was rebuked yet it sounded a sensible discussion point, considering the current infrastructure pressures in Auckland ,for example, for the current population

Good point about some occupations finding it difficult to attract NZ born workers. I would suggest that there could also be other reasons for that and and other policy areas that could be adjusted. Perhaps incomes should be increased for those occupations instead of increasing immigration of those immigrants who would happily take low wages. So maybe more Kiwis would then prefer to go into those occupations as opposed to property trading or real estate (for example). If a supply of low paid migrants is necessary to retain profitability in certain sectors, is it time to realise that NZ may have lost its comparative advantage in those sectors to other countries. (Exceptional circumstances such as the ChCh earthquakes notwithstanding.)

BlackPeter
28-08-2017, 04:59 PM
Which are those populists, who were immigrants, that claim ALL of NZs problems are the fault of immigrants per se as opposed to the current volume of immigration being a significant or lesser contributory factor in some of the issues facing NZ? JT above suggested a reduced and more targeted migration policy. This was rebuked yet it sounded a sensible discussion point, considering the current infrastructure pressures in Auckland ,for example, for the current population

Good point about some occupations finding it difficult to attract NZ born workers. I would suggest that there could also be other reasons for that and and other policy areas that could be adjusted. Perhaps incomes should be increased for those occupations instead of increasing immigration of those immigrants who would happily take low wages. So maybe more Kiwis would then prefer to go into those occupations as opposed to property trading or real estate (for example). If a supply of low paid migrants is necessary to retain profitability in certain sectors, is it time to realise that NZ may have lost its comparative advantage in those sectors to other countries. (Exceptional circumstances such as the ChCh earthquakes notwithstanding.)

Lets see.

JT calls "Immigration the principal problem" He says that immigration causes "House prices to rise" he says it is responsible for "Rents getting excessive" for "long commutes", "more traffic congestion", for "living at home or cramming into the many substandard rentals".

He accuses immigration to cause "increasing homelessness" and mentions in this context "More people than I've ever seen sleeping in shop fronts in my city for example. 40,000 plus all the rest undocumented." All the fault of immigration?

JT claims that the "Health system breaking due to underfunding and all the extra people coming in. 3 DHB's in debt and more to come. Waiting lists for waiting lists, people dying of cancer etc before a delayed op, people going blind waiting for eye ops." All the immigrants - isn't it?

JT says "NZ is officially a slave labour destination now with many immigrants in our orchards with passports withheld by the contractors , earning a few dollars and hour until they have paid off many thousands to the people that have got them the work permits etc. half the kiwifruit orchards in the B O P didn't have the proper documentation for these workers for example. i understand its been rife for years throughout Nz in many picking, pruning, fish processing ,harvesting industries." All the fault of immigrants?

Look Bjauck, I am used to your lecturing - but if you tell me what other people posted, then you should read and process their posts first.

Do we have other problems as well? So maybe my statement that there are people accusing immigration to cause all of NZ's problems is correct ... but if it makes you happy I will change my statement to "the majority of our problems" ;)?

And sure - there inevitably must be a multipronged approach to try to solve the country's problems. Better education (and training kids in useful vocations vs teaching the easy and fashionable stuff), going back to old values like respect and discipline, a proper apprenticeship system and a system which encourages companies to train people are all parts of it.

However - the damage which populists like Peters, JT & Co do to our country should not be underestimated. Remember - Potential immigrants are normal people like you and me - and if they feel that they are not wanted, than the people who can (and this is the ones we want) just go somewhere else.

People like Peters and JT make it just more difficult for our companies and our society to find the engineers, IT people, physicians, nurses and builders we need. Potential immigrants do read social media and newspapers as well - and NZ is certainly not the only location for immigrants. Given that they are sought after people, they just go somewhere else where they are wanted. Thanks Peters and JT, you just managed to further damage our economy. Great stuff.

couta1
28-08-2017, 05:29 PM
Another day and another tax from the the tax princess and her party. Perhaps they could rename themselves the Working Tax Party.

westerly
28-08-2017, 05:39 PM
Do we need a debate on immigration? Absolutely. I am just opposed to populists who used to be immigrants themselves and now claim that all of NZ's problems are the immigrants fault.

What we as well need to consider in this debate is however that we might need some more immigrants to build the houses the existing population so sorely needs. For some reason not enough Kiwis seem to have the skills and the motivation to do the hard work necessary on a building site. Look at the ways too slow Christchurch rebuild and think how much slower it would have been without all the immigrants we imported to do the hard work. We need the immigrants to keep the limited number of future proof industries going (Software and Electronics) and for some sad reason do we even need the immigrants to keep our main industry (agriculture) going. Southland farms are dependant on Filipinos, they don't get enough Kiwi workers prepared to get out early on a cold Southern morning to milk the cows (for good money, may I say) - and the horticulture industry anywhere in NZ can't do without people from the islands and lots of young tourists doing the picking and pruning.

In this situation is it not just morally questionable, but plain stupid to make anti-immigration policies to gain the votes of some backward looking hypocrites who easily forget that without immigration they wouldn't be here themselves. Even the birds migrated at some stage to NZ (without immigration policy), and so did the Morioris, the Maoris and most of the people with European or Asian descent. Lets never forget that all of us either are immigrants or are descendents of immigrants.

NZ was once a country with many small towns in rural areas which provided a source of unskilled part time labour for seasonal demand. The introduction of neo liberal policies decimated the population of many of these small towns as the closure of Post Offices, Banks, Railway services drove people away to find employment in the larger cities.
The introduction of corporate scale dairy farming to Southland and Canterbury necessitated a demand for labour which just wasn't there.
Unemployment is low in NZ so why people should shift to Southland or any other area from somewhere else is problematic. The Christchurch rebuild is not that slow given the size of the damage. There will be a large surplus of labour if the building boom ends at the same time as the next economic downturn.

Definition of a populist -- " a member or adherent of a political party seeking to represent the interests of the ordinary people" Your use of the word populist is questionable.

To say we are all immigrants is a load of PC rubbish. I have no knowledge of where you come from
but I suspect it was from overseas. ( I may be wrong) But when 5 generations of my family know no other country than NZ to be told we are all immigrants is worthy of reply. It is not an excuse for uncontrolled immigration for soley economic reasons.
It is not racist to question immigration policies. I look at the TV news at immigrants flooding in to Europe and wonder why so many appear to be fit young men deserting their country or wonder why a doctor is not back in his own country which desperately needs him. Is that racist?
Is it racist to question why wealthy parents who have spent their productive life in another country can spend their retirement years in NZ and use our struggling medical services. Is it racist to wonder why some can buy their way in? Is racist to wonder how an overseas maybe absentee owner can farm better than a kiwi?

westerly

Bjauck
28-08-2017, 05:53 PM
...
Look Bjauck, I am used to your lecturing - Possibly so. Undeserved?


...but if you tell me what other people posted, then you should read and process their posts first. and I am suitably reprimanded :) Justified?

I cannot link JT's post to a claim that "all of NZ's problems are the immigrants' fault." Blaming excessive immigration is not the same as demonising immigrants. I think it is the government JT has the problem with. Excessive immigration is the responsibility of the government not the immigrants themelves. A significant difference in meaning. JT said that the principal problem was immigration (btw, I don't agree with him that it is the principal problem) which does not indicate that he thinks it the only problem.

...and who are these people that you claim are populists and who were immigrants?

Joshuatree
28-08-2017, 05:54 PM
Re property valns and rental rises. Immigration is definitely not the only prob; national is more so,for fiddling; doing nothing for so long until too late. Corrupted by power , national are imo. Anything to stay there .Key knew what was coming; he created it.

Joshuatree
28-08-2017, 06:39 PM
More smearing by you black peter. Im not a racist and have no time for winston.

BlackPeter
29-08-2017, 07:18 AM
...and who are these people that you claim are populists and who were immigrants?

Well - all of us are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants (including the 5th generation pakehas and the tangata whenua - we all arrived here originally in some osrt of vessels and immigrated to these islands). Some of us are populists. This logically means that the answer to your question above is: every populist in NZ.

What I don't understand is - this fact is so obvious - why do you ask?

BlackPeter
29-08-2017, 07:21 AM
More smearing by you black peter. Im not a racist and have no time for winston.

That's interesting. I can't remember that I called you a racist ... so it must have been your conscience telling you. Who am I though, to contradict your conscience :p?

Joshuatree
29-08-2017, 07:28 AM
.Insinuation, innuendo, gutter politics whale oil mud "always learning"; yeah right, tui. How can you be when you are so unaware of your tainted thinking, even national doesn't need the likes of you.;)

BlackPeter
29-08-2017, 07:45 AM
NZ was once a country with many small towns in rural areas which provided a source of unskilled part time labour for seasonal demand. The introduction of neo liberal policies decimated the population of many of these small towns as the closure of Post Offices, Banks, Railway services drove people away to find employment in the larger cities.
The introduction of corporate scale dairy farming to Southland and Canterbury necessitated a demand for labour which just wasn't there.
Unemployment is low in NZ so why people should shift to Southland or any other area from somewhere else is problematic. The Christchurch rebuild is not that slow given the size of the damage. There will be a large surplus of labour if the building boom ends at the same time as the next economic downturn.

Definition of a populist -- " a member or adherent of a political party seeking to represent the interests of the ordinary people" Your use of the word populist is questionable.

To say we are all immigrants is a load of PC rubbish. I have no knowledge of where you come from
but I suspect it was from overseas. ( I may be wrong) But when 5 generations of my family know no other country than NZ to be told we are all immigrants is worthy of reply. It is not an excuse for uncontrolled immigration for soley economic reasons.
It is not racist to question immigration policies. I look at the TV news at immigrants flooding in to Europe and wonder why so many appear to be fit young men deserting their country or wonder why a doctor is not back in his own country which desperately needs him. Is that racist?
Is it racist to question why wealthy parents who have spent their productive life in another country can spend their retirement years in NZ and use our struggling medical services. Is it racist to wonder why some can buy their way in? Is racist to wonder how an overseas maybe absentee owner can farm better than a kiwi?

westerly

Interesting to note your description of the population changes in New Zealand. And yes, you are right - the population is moving to the centres ... as everywhere else in the world. This may or may not be a lamentable situation (worthwhile to discuss) - but I doubt that this global trend is the fault of National (or any other political party). It happens - everywhere, under right wing, left wing, liberal and under populist governments. But yes, I forgot - it always must be the fault of "the others" - isn't it?

I give you that I should have defined the word "populism". I apologise for not doing that and I give you that there are a number of harmless sounding definitions around, which I clearly not referred to. What I mean with "populism" is the politics of offering simple solutions for complex problems which don't work. The sort of stuff too many people would agree to after having consumed one beer too much at the pub. I mean the populism which always favours your own social group over any other group. I mean the populism of Trump and Brexit which is on a slippery slope towards the populism of right wing fascists and left wing comrades.

Interesting to note that I never used the word "racist" in the post you so vehemently fight. Remnants of your social conscience making you see things I never wrote? Maybe you should listen more often to your conscience rather than pushing Peters agenda?

iceman
29-08-2017, 09:18 AM
Tourism levy of $25 the latest tax from Taxinda. Like her other policies, no thought has gone into it. She claims "NZ Citizens" will not have to pay this levy. How is she going to make the numerous airlines collect this if it will only apply to certain passports ?
Says she wants to use it for infrastructure and apparently it will collect $27M per year. We already have an infrastructure fund with $25M per year for this purpose. Will it be scrapped or will she double it with the new levy, that will be difficult if not impossible to collect ? Barnaby Joyce would not have paid it in June but would do so now (not that he is coming for a visit).

We also already have levies on people arriving in this country that are charged as part of airline tickets. As an example, approximately $95 is added to each and every one way fare across the Tasman in taxes both ends. This new levy would take it to $120 per one way ticket. That is more than you pay for a complete fare within Europe. No wonder we don't get similarly cheap fares and under Labour they will be even further out of reach.

It would be nice if Labour could give us some details on their multiple and mainly tax increasing policies so we can actually understand what they are proposing. Sadly I don' t think they know themselves and shows how badly they have used their 9 years in Opposition. Maybe due to lack of intellectual grunt within their ranks ? Just saying.

Saw Taxinda questioned about her climate change policy on TV this morning, what she says is the "nuclear free issue of our generation", but again she could not provide any details. Zilch. Said she would form a Climate Change Commission to tell her what to do. Great !

Joshuatree
29-08-2017, 10:22 AM
Still pushing that tired tax wheelbarrow Iceman, you're sounding just a little anxious and misinformed; i don't now what your personal situ is but nothing to worry about a change of Govt; you will be looked after too..

National introduced a $22 levy in 2015 for funding biosecurity, fine,
Labour will introduce a $25 levy for tourists
$30 mill will go to conservation, much needed, more please.
$45 million will go to tourism
$25 million will go to a pitch, contestable fund where tourist towns and cities can pitch for funds for projects
The funds will be ring fenced.
Other countries do this too, the UK and aus for two and higher levies to boot
Many city councils struggling with tourist related infrastructure welcome this e.g. dave cull dunedin mayor.

My source; Jacinda Ardern interviewed intensely on national radio this morning

Tourist levy 'significantly lower' than Aus, UK - Jacinda Ardern (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201856463/tourist-levy-significantly-lower-than-aus-uk-jacinda-ardern)

minimoke
29-08-2017, 11:32 AM
Jeez she is soending money like there is no tomorrow. Now we are going to give our kids a free gap year at uni.

If you are going to do it, it should be sucess based. That is on passing year one and on enrollment into year 2 you get year one refunded. - that is if it gets paid at all and on that im not entirely convinced.

Bjauck
29-08-2017, 12:02 PM
Well - all of us are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants (including the 5th generation pakehas and the tangata whenua - we all arrived here originally in some osrt of vessels and immigrated to these islands). Some of us are populists. This logically means that the answer to your question above is: every populist in NZ... Ah...now changed to "descendants of immigrants" - a previous omission? So I should be reprimanded for failing to add extra detail and signifcantly change the meaning of your posts? So when you said the populists "used to be immigrants themselves" I should have known you didnt mean it? You actually meant "the descendants of immgrants"?

I have to point out that not everybody arrived here in "some osrt of vessels and immigrated to these islands" (sic.) Believe it or not some NZers were born here and are not immigrants....! Other NZers were born overseas it's true and some NZ residents have foreign citizenship and were born overseas.

We are not all immigrants. Of course we are all descended from immigrants as indeed are all homo sapiens outside the ancestral homelands in the African rift valley.

By trying to say that "we are all immigrants" are you trying to render as unworthy the concern held by some NZ-born people that they think their NZ way of life is increasingly threatened by large scale migration of foreigners? I would say that if that is your intention, that it is a good way to engender a populist backlash.

BlackPeter
29-08-2017, 12:03 PM
Ah...now changed to "descendants of immgrants" - a previous omission? So I should be reprimanded for failing to add extra detail and signiifcantly change the meaning of your posts? So when you said the populists "used to be immigrants themselves" I should have known you didnt mean it? You actually meant "the descendants of immgrants"?

I have to point out that not everybody arrived here in "some osrt of vessels and immigrated to these islands" (sic.) Believe it or not some NZers were born here and are not immigrants....! Other NZers were born overseas it's true and some NZ residents have foreign citizenship and were born overseas.

We are not all immigrants. Of course we are all descended from immigrants as indeed are all homo sapiens outside the ancestral homelands in the African rift valley.

By trying to say that "we are all immigrants" are you trying to render as unwothy the concern held by some NZ-born people that they think their NZ way of life is increasingly threatened by large scale migration of foreigners with other cultural values? I would say that if that is your intention, that it is a good way to ensure that a populist backlash becomes inevitable.

Bjauck, I said exactly the same as I said in my original post - if you care to read the last line of my original post:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11017-What-do-we-think-of-Jacinda&p=680733&viewfull=1#post680733

"Lets never forget that all of us either are immigrants or are descendents of immigrants."

No change at all. Feel free to save your outrage for a better purpose.

I think however that we are moving here somehow on a tangent away from the title of the thread. If people want to discuss immigration, than it might be more appropriate to move this onto a separate thread.

Bjauck
29-08-2017, 12:13 PM
Bjauck, I said exactly the same as I said in my original post - if you care to read the last line of my original post:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11017-What-do-we-think-of-Jacinda&p=680733&viewfull=1#post680733

"Lets never forget that all of us either are immigrants or are descendents of immigrants."

No change at all. Feel free to save your outrage for a better purpose.

I think however that we are moving here somehow on a tangent away from the title of the thread. If people want to discuss immigration, than it might be more appropriate to move this onto a separate thread.

So who's doing the lecturing?

You said "Do we need a debate on immigration? Absolutely. I am just opposed to populists who used to be immigrants themselves and now claim that all of NZ's problems are the immigrants fault. "

So who are those immigrant populists who claim ALL of the problems are the fault of the immigrants?

BlackPeter
29-08-2017, 12:32 PM
Sad.

I think we clarified what I meant - and it is absolutely clear to whoever wants to understand. And there is not even anything wrong with the sentence you highlighted (and posted twice in your excitement - LOL), but you are absolutely correct, I should have mentioned that it is not "all" but "the majority" of problems (as outlined in a previous post) - and I should have mentioned in all of my posts (not just in the majority of them ;)) that I am referring to immigrants and their descendants (as explained already several times).

Sorry for failing our master of sophistry again. Can you forgive me?

Personally I would prefer to discuss the real issues, but suit yourself.

Bjauck
29-08-2017, 12:35 PM
...the devil is indeed in the detail. But hey, another lecture ;)

iceman
29-08-2017, 02:37 PM
Still pushing that tired tax wheelbarrow Iceman, you're sounding just a little anxious and misinformed; i don't now what your personal situ is but nothing to worry about a change of Govt; you will be looked after too..

National introduced a $22 levy in 2015 for funding biosecurity, fine,
Labour will introduce a $25 levy for tourists
$30 mill will go to conservation, much needed, more please.
$45 million will go to tourism
$25 million will go to a pitch, contestable fund where tourist towns and cities can pitch for funds for projects
The funds will be ring fenced.
Other countries do this too, the UK and aus for two and higher levies to boot
Many city councils struggling with tourist related infrastructure welcome this e.g. dave cull dunedin mayor.

My source; Jacinda Ardern interviewed intensely on national radio this morning

Tourist levy 'significantly lower' than Aus, UK - Jacinda Ardern (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201856463/tourist-levy-significantly-lower-than-aus-uk-jacinda-ardern)

To my knowledge neither Australia nor UK have such a tax levied only on some travelers, but no doubt your reliable source of Taxinda Ardern is the only correct one. Australia has what they call Passenger Movement Charge levied on all international travelers, A$ 55 from memory. UK I think is similar except they charge per distance traveled in the name of climate change and greenhouse gas emissions, resulting in loss of business to airports in other European cities.
I am not against departure or arrival taxes in some form but they need to be simple, fair and cheap to administer. Some airlines are already saying their systems can not implement the Labour idea.

blackcap
29-08-2017, 02:46 PM
Some airlines are already saying their systems can not implement the Labour idea.

Labour might just get customs to impose the tax ("that will be $25 thank you") as passengers arrive in Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington :P:)

craic
29-08-2017, 03:01 PM
I'm an immigrant. Landed here without papers or permit. Years ago got residents permit but never bothered with citizenship. An honest appraisal of my history in NZ could only conclude that I was/am a good citizen. I eat pork, seldom beat women and have a reasonable command of English. Some immigrants may have a negative effect on the country but I suspect that that will be counterbalance by the others. Problem is that we are committed to accept a significant block of totally unsuitable people who neither speak the language or have any interest in entering the culture and for whom the welfare system is a form of paradise. The only interest many of these people have is setting up a province of their own country and dragging in as many relatives as they can to populate it. Has any party suggested the introduction of Sharia law - yet?

Bjauck
30-08-2017, 10:29 AM
I'm an immigrant. Landed here without papers or permit. Years ago got residents permit but never bothered with citizenship. An honest appraisal of my history in NZ could only conclude that I was/am a good citizen. I eat pork, seldom beat women and have a reasonable command of English. Some immigrants may have a negative effect on the country but I suspect that that will be counterbalance by the others. Problem is that we are committed to accept a significant block of totally unsuitable people who neither speak the language or have any interest in entering the culture and for whom the welfare system is a form of paradise. The only interest many of these people have is setting up a province of their own country and dragging in as many relatives as they can to populate it. Has any party suggested the introduction of Sharia law - yet?
I presume you think you make a good resident (rather than a good citizen) as you said you have "never bothered" with citizenship.
Just curious - Do you think a deaf vegetarian is unable to make a good citizen?

westerly
30-08-2017, 11:16 AM
Interesting to note your description of the population changes in New Zealand. And yes, you are right - the population is moving to the centres ... as everywhere else in the world. This may or may not be a lamentable situation (worthwhile to discuss) - but I doubt that this global trend is the fault of National (or any other political party). It happens - everywhere, under right wing, left wing, liberal and under populist governments. But yes, I forgot - it always must be the fault of "the others" - isn't it?

I give you that I should have defined the word "populism". I apologise for not doing that and I give you that there are a number of harmless sounding definitions around, which I clearly not referred to. What I mean with "populism" is the politics of offering simple solutions for complex problems which don't work. The sort of stuff too many people would agree to after having consumed one beer too much at the pub. I mean the populism which always favours your own social group over any other group. I mean the populism of Trump and Brexit which is on a slippery slope towards the populism of right wing fascists and left wing comrades.

Interesting to note that I never used the word "racist" in the post you so vehemently fight. Remnants of your social conscience making you see things I never wrote? Maybe you should listen more often to your conscience rather than pushing Peters agenda?



Congratulations, you seem to have invented your own definition of populism. But hey who cares. :)

Again no where did I mention National as the originator of the neo liberal policies that decimated rural
NZ That was really Roger Douglas (Labour) and (Derek Quigley,) both who ended up deserting their separate parties to form ACT. Incidentally now a very minor party rating at about 0.2% in the polls and really only existing because National appear to have some sentimental attachment to them for whatever reason.
As for "racist " I was only getting in first before you labelled me a xenophopic, backward looking , sad communist, with shameful fascist tendencies and a supporter of NZ first, Labour and the Greens all at the same time. :)

westerly

fungus pudding
02-09-2017, 07:38 PM
Congratulations, you seem to have invented your own definition of populism. But hey who cares.

You'd go a long way to find a better definition.

iceman
07-09-2017, 07:12 AM
Prebble still has his finger on the pulse. Doesn't think much of Jacinda but believes she may win. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11917965

BlackPeter
07-09-2017, 07:34 AM
Prebble still has his finger on the pulse. Doesn't think much of Jacinda but believes she may win. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11917965

Thanks for posting - great reading!

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 08:03 AM
Prebble still has his finger on the pulse. Doesn't think much of Jacinda but believes she may win. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11917965

Indeed he does. Not silly, that boy.

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 08:29 AM
Just another biased talking head fluff piece.
What was really good was the link to the interview by Tristam Clayton with Jacinda Ardern. Thanks for that.

Snow Leopard
07-09-2017, 03:55 PM
link: Jacindamania spreads as Jeremy Corbyn urges New Zealand's Ardern to 'do it for us' (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/07/jacindamania-spreads-as-jeremy-corbyn-urges-new-zealands-ardern-to-do-it-for-us)

So, who is this Jacinda person?


Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

westerly
07-09-2017, 06:16 PM
Indeed he does. Not silly, that boy.

Richard Prebble has completed more about faces than a parade ground soldier.
He was a Labour MP, He campaigned to save railways prior to the 1984 election On being re-elected he did a complete about face and carried on with the sale preparations.
After 20 years as a Labour MP he had another about face and joined ACT.
Completely lacking in credibility he continues to meddle in politics and unfortunately the Herald continues to publish his ramblings.

westerly

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 06:22 PM
Richard Prebble has completed more about faces than a parade ground soldier.
He was a Labour MP, He campaigned to save railways prior to the 1984 election On being re-elected he did a complete about face and carried on with the sale preparations.
westerly

He campaigned to save rail, and he was the only minister of rail who ever managed to turn it profitable, which it was when National sold it.

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 10:12 PM
Heres the sorry messy saga of NZ Rail ; link below.Sold for $328 mill to a consortium of , yes fayrichwhite etc who made killing later as well as Buffetts berkshire fund and others. It listed on the NZX and in USA then later delisted. Bits and pieces were flogged off and bought back. Toll ended up with it (now Tranzrail or TOLL) and had agreements and thresholds with the govt that it didn't meet but the govt rolled over and gave TOLL the heads of agreement for 100%. The govt finally bought it back for $665 mill in 2008. and renamed it KIWIRAIL. It had lost $346 mill in the half year to 2003 , don't know re profit or loss from then until 2008 or since.

Tranz Rail - Wikipedia (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiC58jMs5XWAhUDfbwKHXehABIQFgglMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTranz_ Rail&usg=AFQjCNGvu-eUfVz_piHbaYevj59ZjXKSPg)

minimoke
08-09-2017, 11:18 PM
Heres the sorry messy saga of NZ Rail ; link below.Sold for $328 mill to a consortium of , yes fayrichwhite etc who made killing later as well as Buffetts berkshire fund and others. It listed on the NZX and in USA then later delisted. Bits and pieces were flogged off and bought back. Toll ended up with it (now Tranzrail or TOLL) and had agreements and thresholds with the govt that it didn't meet but the govt rolled over and gave TOLL the heads of agreement for 100%. The govt finally bought it back for $665 mill in 2008. and renamed it KIWIRAIL. It had lost $346 mill in the half year to 2003 , don't know re profit or loss from then until 2008 or since.

Tranz Rail - Wikipedia (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiC58jMs5XWAhUDfbwKHXehABIQFgglMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTranz_ Rail&usg=AFQjCNGvu-eUfVz_piHbaYevj59ZjXKSPg)
Can you just remind us how much profit NZRail has returned to NZ government and the taxpayer since Labour purchased this train set.

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 08:27 AM
I'd like to see Winston First come out and firmly state he will not go into coalition with a party who has not released their tax proposals prior to the election - but he wouldn't of course because that would be hypocritical for someone who won't even advise in advance of who he wants to play with.

janner
09-09-2017, 09:10 AM
I'd like to see Winston First come out and firmly state he will not go into coalition with a party who has not released their tax proposals prior to the election - but he wouldn't of course because that would be hypocritical for someone who won't even advise in advance of who he wants to play with.

How could he possibly know who to play with if they hide their thoughts.. ???

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 09:16 AM
How could he possibly know who to play with if they hide their thoughts.. ???

As long as they open their baubles cabinet wide enough, mere details of policies won't matter.

BlackPeter
09-09-2017, 12:00 PM
I'd like to see Winston First come out and firmly state he will not go into coalition with a party who has not released their tax proposals prior to the election - but he wouldn't of course because that would be hypocritical for someone who won't even advise in advance of who he wants to play with.

Actually - while I despise Winston and his populist paroles ... I would not condemn him for not committing prior to the elections with whom he is going to play. Actually - this is the only way for MMP to really work (everybody being able to play with everybody else) and this is the only way for smaller parties to have maximum political impact.

This is as well the only way for voters to set the priorities they like to see attended to (be it the environment (some other Green Party), liberal ideas (United or ACT), Maori issues or be it Winson's racist and populist agenda (NZF) - if all these small parties commit already prior to the election the only choice for voters is between National or Labour.

Look at the Greens (if we would have a real environmental conscience Green party in NZ) - if they would have been able to do what Winston is doing, than they could have been the king maker a long time ago - and our environment would be the better for it. By always going Left they gave up all their political influence and so they are just another useless and redundant pool of Lefties - traitors to our environment.

Not that United Future is currently an important player, but I do admire their stance to push their liberal agenda with any player. Same true for the Maori party. Good on them - and they made in the past a bigger dent on politics than the committed Greenies.

Same with Winston. I don't like his agenda, but he knows how to use MMP and how to maximise his political influence. As soon as one of the small parties commits to go only with one of the big ones they make themselves irrelevant, and this is a pity - it does not just damage the small party, but it does damage our democracy.

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 12:07 PM
Actually - while I despise Winston and his populist paroles ... I would not condemn him for not committing prior to the elections with whom he is going to play. Actually - this is the only way for MMP to really work (everybody being able to play with everybody else) and this is the only way for smaller parties to have maximum political impact.

This is as well the only way for voters to set the priorities they like to see attended to (be it the environment (some other Green Party), liberal ideas (United or ACT), Maori issues or be it Winson's racist and populist agenda (NZF) - if all these small parties commit already prior to the election the only choice for voters is between National or Labour.

Look at the Greens (if we would have a real environmental conscience Green party in NZ) - if they would have been able to do what Winston is doing, than they could have been the king maker a long time ago - and our environment would be the better for it. By always going Left they gave up all their political influence and so they are just another useless and redundant pool of Lefties - traitors to our environment.

Not that United Future is currently an important player, but I do admire their stance to push their liberal agenda with any player. Same true for the Maori party. Good on them - and they made in the past a bigger dent on politics than the committed Greenies.

Same with Winston. I don't like his agenda, but he knows how to use MMP and how to maximise his political influence. As soon as one of the small parties commits to go only with one of the big ones they make themselves irrelevant, and this is a pity - it does not just damage the small party, but it does damage our democracy.

It also makes voting for Winston difficult for those who cannot abide the thought of either of the main parties. So what's the answer? There isn't one under MMP. Supplementary Member Proportional (SMP) would be the way to go.

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 12:40 PM
Can you just remind us how much profit NZRail has returned to NZ government and the taxpayer since Labour purchased this train set.

Been a hospital pass dog forever hasn't it?The merchant bankers , advisors etc have done well. Recent years; did it make small profit recently?

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 01:47 PM
Been a hospital pass dog forever hasn't it?The merchant bankers , advisors etc have done well. Recent years; did it make small profit recently?

Not if you consider the ridiculous price Clark and Cullen paid for it. Their worst ever decision. Could have got it for a song but they wanted to leave the cupboard bare

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 02:15 PM
Disaster all round from all parties except buffett, fayrichrite advisors etc

couta1
09-09-2017, 02:32 PM
Just as well Taxcinda not in Q/town today, might give her ideas about introducing a snow tax (Wouldn't rule anything out with her and after all snow is just another form of water) If this is what climate change looks like, bring it on.

minimoke
09-09-2017, 05:31 PM
Just as well Taxcinda not in Q/town today, might give her ideas about introducing a snow tax (Wouldn't rule anything out with her and after all snow is just another form of water) If this is what climate change looks like, bring it on.
You have this climate change thing all wrong. We don't want more snow. How much food can you produce in snow? How many livestock? How can you feed the world in Snow?

What we need is warmth, coupled with a plentiful supply of CO2 to get the crops growing. That way there will be more job opportunities and more job opportunities equals less poverty!

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 08:35 PM
Just as well Taxcinda not in Q/town today, might give her ideas about introducing a snow tax (Wouldn't rule anything out with her and after all snow is just another form of water) If this is what climate change looks like, bring it on.

Incar;)ceration for any skier who's pees in it would be better.

minimoke
09-09-2017, 11:14 PM
Incar;)ceration for any skier who's pees in it would be better.
Who does Labour despise most: a skier or a person who pees in snow?

fungus pudding
10-09-2017, 07:08 AM
Who does Labour despise most: a skier or a person who pees in snow?

A skier because he or she has been left with enough after tax money to enjoy. Anyone can pith in the snow.

bullfrog
10-09-2017, 10:23 AM
JA is certainly charismatic, positive, aspirational, and I do think she'd make a great leader but, what are the policies she's promoting? And it's the same around the world, we're electing leaders, not policies, Trump, Macron, Trudeau, KimJong Un, �� But seriously, maybe it's time to elect a president, then a parliament, similar to the French system, then we could have Jacinda's personality with Nationals policies, but then I've always thought bacon ice cream would be awesome, but will probably leave a bitter taste in my mouth ����, but who'd have thought salted caramel would work

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 10:55 AM
A skier because he or she has been left with enough after tax money to enjoy. Anyone can pith in the snow.

Anyone who gets a great enjoyment out of what nature provides who then goes and literally despoils it is pretty sick/selfish/ignorant in my book.

blackcap
10-09-2017, 01:54 PM
Anyone who gets a great enjoyment out of what nature provides who then goes and literally despoils it is pretty sick/selfish/ignorant in my book.

So you are calling me sick/selfish/ignorant because I have taken a piss in the snow? Really? Wow that is weird.

minimoke
10-09-2017, 02:17 PM
So you are calling me sick/selfish/ignorant because I have taken a piss in the snow? Really? Wow that is weird.
Now I'm feeling really guilty. I pissed in a river once. Probably more than once.

edit: the shame is getting to me. Also in a lake and in the sea.

blackcap
10-09-2017, 02:23 PM
Now I'm feeling really guilty. I pissed in a river once. Probably more than once.

edit: the shame is getting to me. Also in a lake and in the sea.

Oh no, I piss in the sea on a regular basis whilst enjoying it (the sea that is) immensely. Better watch out when this new mob is in power, all these "what we thought were normal" things are going to be banned.

minimoke
10-09-2017, 02:30 PM
Oh no, I piss in the sea on a regular basis whilst enjoying it (the sea that is) immensely. Better watch out when this new mob is in power, all these "what we thought were normal" things are going to be banned.Its a growing list:
Free water - to be banned
CO2. To be banned
Poverty - to be banned
Foreigners buying houses that can be rented out. To be banned
Cheap rentals - to be banned
Negotiation between employer and employee - to be banned

tim23
10-09-2017, 02:56 PM
Relax its going to be okay after 23 September no need to be so worried.
Its a growing list:
Free water - to be banned
CO2. To be banned
Poverty - to be banned
Foreigners buying houses that can be rented out. To be banned
Cheap rentals - to be banned
Negotiation between employer and employee - to be banned

couta1
10-09-2017, 03:28 PM
Oh no, I piss in the sea on a regular basis whilst enjoying it (the sea that is) immensely. Better watch out when this new mob is in power, all these "what we thought were normal" things are going to be banned. When nature calls, you just gotta go whether it be in the sea, river, lake or snow, no harm done. JT you might like to start a crusade against things that really do affect nature, like the zillions of discarded cigarette butts that find there way into the ocean, full of toxic chemicals, not to mention all that discarded plastic and other rubbish.

couta1
10-09-2017, 03:34 PM
A skier because he or she has been left with enough after tax money to enjoy. Anyone can pith in the snow. About right, anybody who works hard to enjoy activities like skiing, fishing etc will be in Taxcinda's line of fire. I mean how dare the average hard working kiwi have the audacity to actually enjoy any left over money by spending it on such luxuries. That's not how Communism works.