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View Full Version : Is a labour / nz first goverment now on the cards.



minimoke
10-08-2017, 06:48 AM
Im thinking maybe yes.

Its obviously a numbers game with national / act/maori/dunne not having the numbers.

And labour will give winston deputy PM

fungus pudding
10-08-2017, 09:47 AM
Im thinking maybe yes.

Its obviously a numbers game with national / act/maori/dunne not having the numbers.

And labour will give winston deputy PM

I think a Labour/Winston first govt. is now almost a certainty. With Labour in the low 20s it would have made it difficult to go with them, but now they are closing in so he can chose either without being shot down in flames. That means the next govt. will depend entirely on Winston; and his decision will depend on what he can extract for Winston. I see Labour being the highest bidder.

artemis
10-08-2017, 09:56 AM
They will still need the Greens on current polling. That will be a problem for Mr Peters.

JBmurc
10-08-2017, 10:02 AM
They will still need the Greens on current polling. That will be a problem for Mr Peters.

Mr Peters will sell his own mother to get deputy PM ....

fungus pudding
10-08-2017, 10:08 AM
They will still need the Greens on current polling. That will be a problem for Mr Peters.

Not one he can't negotiate out of the way. He'll need them for the numbers, but they won't get a look into the bauble bag. Maybe a few stale crumbs.

minimoke
10-08-2017, 11:18 AM
Not one he can't negotiate out of the way. He'll need them for the numbers, but they won't get a look into the bauble bag. Maybe a few stale crumbs.
I reckon MOU out the window and a new supply and confidence agreement with greens with no baubles but an agreement to pursue climate change initiatives.

fungus pudding
10-08-2017, 11:40 AM
I reckon MOU out the window and a new supply and confidence agreement with greens with no baubles but an agreement to pursue climate change initiatives.

MOU ends on election day anyway, but you're bang on with the rest as a distinct possibility.

tim23
10-08-2017, 05:52 PM
Chris Trotter and tellingly Matthew Houten both predicted that on The AM show today.
I think a Labour/Winston first govt. is now almost a certainty. With Labour in the low 20s it would have made it difficult to go with them, but now they are closing in so he can chose either without being shot down in flames. That means the next govt. will depend entirely on Winston; and his decision will depend on what he can extract for Winston. I see Labour being the highest bidder.

iceman
10-08-2017, 06:38 PM
Chris Trotter and tellingly Matthew Houten both predicted that on The AM show today.

Matthew Hooton today says Greens at risk of falling below 5% and not making it into parliament. Now that would be interesting, albeit unlikely I think

minimoke
10-08-2017, 06:46 PM
Matthew Hooton today says Greens at risk of falling below 5% and not making it into parliament. Now that would be interesting, albeit unlikely I think
I think it unlikely as well. 5% of the population are ratbags so they now have a Party ideally suited them.

Joshuatree
10-08-2017, 08:48 PM
Lol; go fishing and don't take the water quality and the environment for granted mm; take the beauty, take the air and water and sun and feel at peace , pillage. Ratbags the people who want you to continue to support your time outs to recharge and refresh ;to stop the pollution and save our Flora and Fauna for all and force us to look at what we don't want to; the ugly embarrassing poverty trap where people who notify their gaolers are instantly dumped for two weeks for being honest and training them not to report that little extra next time or to tell Winz that they've got a small loan from a shark at 45% ( because they are so desperate to pay the exorbitant rents and feed their families)because winz will want that same amount paid back to them and make that hole of despair deeper. At least the system will be shaken out reviewed and changed now and i thank Metiria for that. Let them eat instant noodles because deep down they are ratbags and bludgers too and deserve it; yeah ratbags bludgers for sure ehhh?

minimoke
10-08-2017, 09:06 PM
Lol; go fishing and don't take the water quality and the environment for granted mm; take the beauty, take the air and water and sun and feel at peace , pillage. Ratbags the people who want you to continue to support your time outs to recharge and refresh ;to stop the pollution and save our Flora and Fauna for all and force us to look at what we don't want to; the ugly embarrassing poverty trap where people who notify their gaolers are instantly dumped for two weeks for being honest and training them not to report that little extra next time or to tell Winz that they've got a small loan from a shark at 45% ( because they are so desperate to pay the exorbitant rents and feed their families)because winz will want that same amount paid back to them and make that hole of despair deeper. At least the system will be shaken out reviewed and changed now and i thank Metiria for that. Let them eat instant noodles because deep down they are ratbags and bludgers too and deserve it; yeah ratbags bludgers for sure ehhh?
I dont know where too start - too many muddled thoughts in that post! (And I reckon I am Greener than most of the commie ne'er do wells that remain in that useless excuse for a political Party)

Joshuatree
11-08-2017, 07:33 AM
You sure don't sound like you give a stuff.Greens will survive and rebuild their votes enough to make a difference I'm sure of that but we will see; things are swinging all over the place atm.

tim23
13-08-2017, 03:13 PM
What about the corporate tax cheats and the wealthy who have fancy schemes to minimise tax where do you lump them?
I think it unlikely as well. 5% of the population are ratbags so they now have a Party ideally suited them.

Major von Tempsky
13-08-2017, 03:41 PM
I don't know why many of you make the assumption that NZF is a left of centre party? The left leaning minority left NZF in the last poll, the remainder are right leaning.

Winston has always been more comfortable with National, it's where his roots are.

When Andrew Little presumed to speak for NZF in development of a joint anti Nat policy Winston gave him a good clip around the ears and sent him packing.

A more realistic assumtion is that NZF will go with National.

Sgt Pepper
13-08-2017, 04:51 PM
I don't know why many of you make the assumption that NZF is a left of centre party? The left leaning minority left NZF in the last poll, the remainder are right leaning.

Winston has always been more comfortable with National, it's where his roots are.

When Andrew Little presumed to speak for NZF in development of a joint anti Nat policy Winston gave him a good clip around the ears and sent him packing.

A more realistic assumtion is that NZF will go with National.

Had a discussion yesterday with a life long National supporter from Clutha Southland who is convinced NZ First will take Bill English's old seat. If it does it will be the biggest electorate upset in living memeory

fungus pudding
13-08-2017, 05:10 PM
Had a discussion yesterday with a life long National supporter from Clutha Southland who is convinced NZ First will take Bill English's old seat. If it does it will be the biggest electorate upset in living memeory


What did he have to say about the second coming?

Baa_Baa
13-08-2017, 05:41 PM
Had a discussion yesterday with a life long National supporter from Clutha Southland who is convinced NZ First will take Bill English's old seat. If it does it will be the biggest electorate upset in living memeory

Bill, lose his seat and the election for a second time. That would be something!

777
13-08-2017, 05:46 PM
Bill, lose his seat and the election for a second time. That would be something!

Keep up. It is/was Todd Barclay's seat.

tim23
13-08-2017, 08:15 PM
Not according to Chris Trotter and Matthew Houton - when was Peters last a Minister? - under Labour thats who

fungus pudding
14-08-2017, 03:20 AM
Not according to Chris Trotter and Matthew Houton - when was Peters last a Minister? - under Labour thats who

It's impossible to know who or what you are on about, or what post you are referring to. But you are right. Labour was the last party to fire him. National are still winning that one though. They have fired him twice.

Joshuatree
17-08-2017, 05:08 PM
Latest poll on TV1 news now
National 44%
Labour 37%:t_up:
NZ First 10%
Green 4%
Maori 2%
TOP 2%

I believe greens will get back above 5%.

Preferred leader
Jacinta 30%;)
Bill 30%

artemis
17-08-2017, 05:57 PM
Agree Greens should come back to over 5%. The controversies will die away as they get decreasing air time, but some toxicity will hang around for a long time.

If they are back, that will be a problem for Labour trying to form a government even if Greens are not first cab off the rank. Might help if Mr Shaw stands down 10 pm on the 23rd.

minimoke
17-08-2017, 06:32 PM
Agree Greens should come back to over 5%. .
I wouldn't be so sure. Look at TOP. 2% Morgan just needs to squeeze that Green base a bit harder. It wont be enough to get him to 5% but every 0.1% spells a deeper grave for Shaw and his motley crew.

Joshuatree
17-08-2017, 07:18 PM
Maybe you should take yourself to the Inconvenient truth sequel about to be releasedand look outside your bubble at the bigger picture

minimoke
17-08-2017, 07:27 PM
Maybe you should take yourself to the Inconvenient truth sequel about to be releasedand look outside your bubble at the bigger pictureI haven't seen the first - remind me how his predictions played out (perhaps on another thread so not to clutter this one)

fungus pudding
17-08-2017, 07:29 PM
Maybe you should take yourself to the Inconvenient truth sequel about to be releasedand look outside your bubble at the bigger picture

Who are you addressing now?

Joshuatree
17-08-2017, 08:26 PM
Its about that planet earth far far away in another galaxy from you; apparently the aliens there have just realised they have been pooping in their own nest Nanoo nanoo lol.

minimoke
17-08-2017, 08:53 PM
Its about that planet earth far far away in another galaxy from you; apparently the aliens there have just realised they have been pooping in their own nest Nanoo nanoo lol.
You do know that if every single person (and cow) was wiped of the surface of NZ it would not make a jot of difference to the catastrophic end of the world due to human induced carbon emissions.

Major von Tempsky
18-08-2017, 08:28 AM
Joshua Tree doesn't read very widely, if he read one or two newspapers or magazines from overseas he would see that that The Inconvenient Truth Sequel has already been released overseas, and the inconvenient truth for him is that IT HAS BOMBED VERY HEAVILY! HARDLY ANYONE IS GOING TO SEE IT! He needs to get outside hios own little bubble to see that.

I also see that the usual suspects have failed to notice that Bill English's leadership vote went UP 3% to 30%. Another inconvenient truth for JT (where's EZthese days? Maybe it's the old trick that several left wingers got banned from Sharetrader for - that EZ and JT are the same person....

Finally a piece of advice for Minimoke - I think he should plunge heavily, very heavily at the TAB on betting on a Labour?NZ First coalition. If he has some guts he should put his money where his mouth is. Off you go Minimoke, you can do it! You can doit!

Joshuatree
18-08-2017, 09:22 AM
As a citizen of our threatened planet ,Im really looking forward to the latest movie "An Inconvenient Sequel, Truth and power"I don't know what planet or pills you are on MVT. Try and open your mind as you are sadly sounding like a mini me donald trumpf.

I googled reviews and got eight ,the first from the Guardian gave 4 stars

"New challenges and science dismissing U.S president makes gores sequel to his 2006 film feel both cinematic and compelling"
The rest 3 or 4 stars with one 2 and a half star.New challenges – and a science-dismissing US President – make Gore’s sequel to his 2006 film feel both cinematic and compelling"

.All the other reviews were also 3 or 4 stars, the lowest 2 and a halfh

T

Try and have an open mind and at least inform yourself of the latest science; you are sounding like a mini me d trump!.alf.

Major von Tempsky
18-08-2017, 11:35 AM
That's reviews and mostly still not very good, and not bums on seats which is what counts.

Joshuatree
18-08-2017, 11:41 AM
I googled reviews and got eight ,the first from the Guardian gave 4 stars

"New challenges and science dismissing U.S president makes gores sequel to his 2006 film feel both cinematic and compelling"
The rest 3 or 4 stars with one 2 and a half star.

minimoke
18-08-2017, 11:42 AM
Finally a piece of advice for Minimoke - I think he should plunge heavily, very heavily at the TAB on betting on a Labour?NZ First coalition. If he has some guts he should put his money where his mouth is. Off you go Minimoke, you can do it! You can doit!
I can't remember the last time i was in a TAB so not sure how to place such a bet. I cant imagene they would be very long odds now. A win probably wouldnt pay for my petrol to get down their.

minimoke
18-08-2017, 11:48 AM
joI googled reviews and got eight ,the first from the Guardian gave 4 stars

"New challenges and science dismissing U.S president makes gores sequel to his 2006 film feel both cinematic and compelling"
The rest 3 or 4 stars with one 2 and a half star.
2.5 stars (5.2) on IMDB. Opening weekend grossed $124k. Dunkirk grossed $50m

blackcap
18-08-2017, 11:55 AM
2.5 stars (5.2) on IMDB. Opening weekend grossed $124k. Dunkirk grossed $50m

Grossed 124k. Says it all really. Gore is a fraud.

Joshuatree
18-08-2017, 01:03 PM
Gore is a fraud?
Wow why do you say that?

jonu
18-08-2017, 01:44 PM
Gore is a fraud?
Wow why do you say that?

Do you mean the same Al Gore who while he was touting "An Inconvenient Truth" was fronting a carbon trading fund? The same Al Gore who scaremongered about sea level rise and then purchased a waterfront home in Florida? The same Al Gore who said the ice caps were meant to have disappeared by now? The same Al Gore who owns a mega mansion with power consumption that would light up a small NZ town? The same Al Gore whose air miles would keep the same town in petrol for a year? He is only a slightly bigger hippocrate than Leo DiCaprio.

blackcap
18-08-2017, 01:47 PM
Do you mean the same Al Gore who while he was touting "An Inconvenient Truth" was fronting a carbon trading fund? The same Al Gore who scaremongered about sea level rise and then purchased a waterfront home in Florida? The same Al Gore who said the ice caps were meant to have disappeared by now? The same Al Gore who owns a mega mansion with power consumption that would light up a small NZ town? The same Al Gore whose air miles would keep the same town in petrol for a year? He is only a slightly bigger hippocrate than Leo DiCaprio.

Thanks Jonu, well said.

Joshuatree
18-08-2017, 02:06 PM
Do you mean the same Al Gore who while he was touting "An Inconvenient Truth" was fronting a carbon trading fund? The same Al Gore who scaremongered about sea level rise and then purchased a waterfront home in Florida? The same Al Gore who said the ice caps were meant to have disappeared by now? The same Al Gore who owns a mega mansion with power consumption that would light up a small NZ town? The same Al Gore whose air miles would keep the same town in petrol for a year? He is only a slightly bigger hippocrate than Leo DiCaprio.

Its an inexact science predicting the timing exactly as there are no comparable and its a earth size problem with many variable inputs. its happening but maybe not in your lifetime so don't worry about it ehh:p. Sheesh even our city council has factored sea rising into their policies think it was 20-50cm in the next 50 years.

We can find the negatives about anyone ,we all have a few. Gore has the right to make investing in Green business as i do as part of my portfolio. I have started a Green stocks thread and i invest in them.Gore has contributed to raising awareness of human induced global warming etc thats good thing. i think we are all guilty re air travel; still they are becoming more efficient as the tech gets better for everything. I have no idea how much veracity there is in what you say but find it very defensive and your line in the sand can be moved easily with a little education; research enlightening of one self ,IF YOU ARE OPEN. I haven't read anywhere re icecaps disappearing in 10 years (since "the inconvenient truth") but there is scientific measurements that have been going on for awhile measuring the thickness of the ice sheets lessening. It is gradual and a tipping point may be reached where nothing can be done to stop things. Although I'm an optimist re humans solving things; thats why we are where we are.

jonu
18-08-2017, 02:27 PM
Defensive JT? You asked why someone thought Al Gore was a fraud. I answered.

Joshuatree
18-08-2017, 02:42 PM
So have i with some substance.

Major von Tempsky
18-08-2017, 04:25 PM
"Sheesh even our city council has factored sea rising into their policies think it was 20-50cm in the next 50 years.", says JT.

Not sure who "Our Council" is but the land level around NZ is rising around three quarters of NZ's coastline, earthquakes, and slow creep. Hence the Wellington City Council withdrew their "guidance" on sea level rise - the blind leading the blind, under the threat of legal action and Chch is now very soft pedalling theirs. The Earth is in an Inter Glacial period where the glaciesr have been melting anyway and the rate of rise is in the lower range of what the IPCC "predicted".

blackcap
18-08-2017, 04:38 PM
"Sheesh even our city council has factored sea rising into their policies think it was 20-50cm in the next 50 years.", says JT.

Not sure who "Our Council" is but the land level around NZ is rising around three quarters of NZ's coastline, earthquakes, and slow creep. Hence the Wellington City Council withdrew their "guidance" on sea level rise - the blind leading the blind, under the threat of legal action and Chch is now very soft pedalling theirs. The Earth is in an Inter Glacial period where the glaciesr have been melting anyway and the rate of rise is in the lower range of what the IPCC "predicted".

The Kapiti Council also got slammed with legal action and withdrew their ridiculous proposed LIM changes.

westerly
18-08-2017, 10:00 PM
"Sheesh even our city council has factored sea rising into their policies think it was 20-50cm in the next 50 years.", says JT.

Not sure who "Our Council" is but the land level around NZ is rising around three quarters of NZ's coastline, earthquakes, and slow creep. Hence the Wellington City Council withdrew their "guidance" on sea level rise - the blind leading the blind, under the threat of legal action and Chch is now very soft pedalling theirs. The Earth is in an Inter Glacial period where the glaciesr have been melting anyway and the rate of rise is in the lower range of what the IPCC "predicted".

The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment would disagree with you on sea level rise.

westerly

Joshuatree
19-08-2017, 05:34 AM
Suggest you take that up with our council, they have been responsible and have done their research and come up with their targets. Im int in what you say ; do you have link or details, thanks.

couta1
20-08-2017, 05:19 PM
Better keep plenty of powder dry in case this lot gain power, the share market will take a hit due to instability and anti business sentiment.

minimoke
21-08-2017, 11:46 AM
Perhaps another step closer woth no united future seat for national and one extra for labor with greg O'Connor

Joshuatree
21-08-2017, 11:49 AM
Surprised the sharemarket hasn't wobbled already with this sea change becoming a tidal wave for change. But once the election is over and certainty prevails things will settle down to the norm NZX wise.

winner69
21-08-2017, 12:03 PM
Perhaps another step closer woth no united future seat for national and one extra for labor with greg O'Connor

.....but one less from the list

And changes the way things are calculated a bit. Might only be 120 MPs now depending on Maori Party support

Sainte-Laguë Formula is neat

minimoke
21-08-2017, 12:03 PM
Surprised the sharemarket hasn't wobbled already with this sea change becoming a tidal wave for change. But once the election is over and certainty prevails things will settle down to the norm NZX wise.
Ive got a bit in cash which I'm leaving there

percy
21-08-2017, 12:48 PM
Being politically ambidextrous, I have done well with both National and Labour.
Usually find myself "well positioned."

RTM
21-08-2017, 09:05 PM
I wonder if someone would be so kind as to point me in the direction of a thread that has some discussion of what may happen with our exchange rate firstly in the lead up to the election and then after the election with Lab/NZ First Government. I'm thinking our dollar should go down.....them back up should the Nats win, but stray down for a bit longer if Lab win. Anyway, is there a thread on this topic ? Cheers, RTM

fungus pudding
22-08-2017, 07:52 AM
I wonder if someone would be so kind as to point me in the direction of a thread that has some discussion of what may happen with our exchange rate firstly in the lead up to the election and then after the election with Lab/NZ First Government. I'm thinking our dollar should go down.....them back up should the Nats win, but stray down for a bit longer if Lab win. Anyway, is there a thread on this topic ? Cheers, RTM

This could help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jrlb0n4ZwY

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 08:11 AM
Being politically ambidextrous, I have done well with both National and Labour.
Usually find myself "well positioned."

Hehee.Yes I'm sure i will do just as well too with my investments. But only under labour will I sleep better at night because my country and its people will be being looked after way better with less stress, more quality of living and health and we will be doing our part to act now to overcome human induced global warming for those that follow.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 07:25 PM
Ive been listening National radio focusing on the DHB's
Canterbury is the latest DHB to be in trouble. the ministry is saying slash the deficit from $54 mill and then go to a $17 mill surplus.
This DHB is one of the most efficient in the country ,the treasury rated it.
The DHB say if they are forced to, health services will be cut on an UNPRECEDENTED scale right across the board The DHB has said come look at our books see where we can make savings, no response from the ministry..

The health ministry has been invited a number of times to discuss; never once have they showed
Jonathan coleman to his credit has been on the programme twice but imo did a "nick smith" and talked all-around it without answering real questions like about people dying while waiting for ops.

People awaiting cataract ops going blind and many will follow is one of many examples ;people with cancer another.

National have underfunded the DHBs terribly since 2009. It is thought that many of the other 20 plus DHB's are also struggling with lack of funding and onerous unrealistic demands from their govt. Hate to think what the stress levels rare like at the DHB's. can they work efficiently in the situ, NO.

National want to build 10 roads costing re $8 billion but like the bridges in northland , they could will be ghost road carrots. They think throwing money at infrastructure builds ,a tired old tactic will be the miracle that gets them back in power.....NOT.

Labour are going to put $8 billion in to the health system over 5 years.
Which would you think was better for new zealanders? A ghost highway or a health system fit for purpose for a 1st world economy?

fungus pudding
22-08-2017, 07:29 PM
Which would you think was better for new zealanders?

That's easy. National.

Joshuatree
22-08-2017, 07:35 PM
Right, private medical insurance, stuff everyone else they deserve what they can't afford and are afflicted with;got ya.:t_up: You're a wonderful human being fp.

minimoke
22-08-2017, 07:48 PM
Right, private medical insurance, stuff everyone else they deserve what they can't afford and are afflicted with;got ya.:t_up: You're a wonderful human being fp.
I have medical insurance and its excellent. I have also recently experienced a number of different departments in teh public health system and also rate that as excellent.

(And isnt Dunedin getting a new hospital?)

Joshuatree
23-08-2017, 07:10 AM
Read my post ;its from info i got from national radio checkpoint. They are doing really in-depth reports on the state of the DHB's . Sounds like you completely ignore the facts for the majority who can't afford medical insurance. Personally i couldn't even get on a waiting list to go on a waiting list!.

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 07:22 AM
I have medical insurance and its excellent. I have also recently experienced a number of different departments in teh public health system and also rate that as excellent.

(And isnt Dunedin getting a new hospital?) The public health system is excellent...once you have got to see a specialist after being onthe waiting list...private medical insurance means that you can see a specialist straightaway, and get an operation straightaway if necessary.

If if you cannot afford the private appointments, you need to wait which can involve waiting in pain for longer and a possible deterioration in your condition. So, a voter with private health insurance can vote in a government who promises tax cuts safe in the knowledge that they are still covered by their health insurance when the funding starved health system becomes over loaded.

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 07:41 AM
The public health system is excellent...once you have got to see a specialist after being onthe waiting list...private medical insurance means that you can see a specialist straightaway, and get an operation straightaway if necessary.

If if you cannot afford the private appointments, you need to wait which can involve waiting in pain for longer and a possible deterioration in your condition. So, a voter with private health insurance can vote in a government who promises tax cuts safe in the knowledge that they are still covered by their health insurance when the funding starved health system becomes over loaded.

Just as a voter without health cover can vote in a govt. promising tax cuts, safe in the knowledge that choking an economy with taxes never produces a good outcome.

Joshuatree
23-08-2017, 08:20 AM
"Choking" another national slime word smear. Taxes won't be dropped ; too many important things to fix like $8 billion over 5 years for the DHB's who have been underfunded since 2009.

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 08:27 AM
"Choking" another national slime word smear. Taxes won't be dropped ; too many important things to fix like $8 billion over 5 years for the DHB's who have been underfunded since 2009.


Why don't you move to Aussie and happily join them paying the medicare levy?

artemis
23-08-2017, 08:27 AM
Right, private medical insurance, stuff everyone else they deserve what they can't afford and are afflicted with;got ya.:t_up: You're a wonderful human being fp.

Without private medical insurance in the mix a lot more funding would be needed in the public sector just to maintain the status quo.

We should be cherishing those who pay it, not smacking them.

blackcap
23-08-2017, 08:37 AM
Without private medical insurance in the mix a lot more funding would be needed in the public sector just to maintain the status quo.

We should be cherishing those who pay it, not smacking them.

That is exactly right. Those that have private medical insurance and go to private hospitals etc are funding the public sector fully. They could have gone public costing us yet more money but essentially chose to pay for healthcare themselves. They should be applauded and held up as decent altruistic citizens they are.

Joshuatree
23-08-2017, 08:46 AM
I agree its good.Im not smacking them but its their attitude ; I'm ok so i don't care about the majority who can't afford it... let them wait.

Joshuatree
23-08-2017, 08:53 AM
I believe the health system has been herding people who couldn't wait endlessly or who's health, quality of life, was deteriorating , off the waiting lists to get it done privately by getting in debt they can't afford. Makes the system look better; "look we've got the waiting lists down by doing more elective surgery".

winner69
23-08-2017, 09:01 AM
Why don't you move to Aussie and happily join them paying the medicare levy?

.....think JT would still prefer living in misery under a National government

Any way he prefers kiwi bacon

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 09:15 AM
I agree its good.Im not smacking them but its their attitude ; I'm ok so i don't care about the majority who can't afford it... let them wait.

What on earth would you know about 'their' attitude? How many of 'them' have you asked? That is the most ridiculous generalisation I have ever heard.

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 10:11 AM
Just as a voter without health cover can vote in a govt. promising tax cuts, safe in the knowledge that choking an economy with taxes never produces a good outcome. In NZ, I suspect extra money spent on the poor goes back into the economy whereas extra tax cuts for the rich goes into inflating the price of land....and look at those high taxed Scandinavian countries with excellent public welfare! Countries with the smallest % of GDP as taxes, are usually the poorest with creaking infrastructure and little public welfare.

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 10:18 AM
Without private medical insurance in the mix a lot more funding would be needed in the public sector just to maintain the status quo.

We should be cherishing those who pay it, not smacking them. That's true....taxes would have to rise...but then if the public system was sufficiently good, the rich would not have to buy private insurance in the first place - thereby saving money for their extra taxes.

Private insurance is popular for the advantages it gives to those wealthy enough to afford the premiums. So adequately covered, they do not have the incentive to maintain a good quality Public Health system for the rest.

minimoke
23-08-2017, 01:50 PM
Private insurance is popular for the advantages it gives to those wealthy enough to afford the premiums. So adequately covered, they do not have the incentive to maintain a good quality Public Health system for the rest.
Its not about being wealthy. Its about thinking what risks are , where priorities lie and then how to pay for the highest priorities

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 02:44 PM
Its not about being wealthy. Its about thinking what risks are , where priorities lie and then how to pay for the highest priorities I agree with that to a point. Heath Insurance may have a high priority. However for many, rent/accommodation, food and clothing expenses may mean that Health Insurance is always unattainable. Not to mention the extra expense involved if (a) you are older or (b) have pre-existing conditions.

Also the horrendous costs for first home owners, some with a large student debt as well, in trying to put a roof over their heads may mean that just cannot afford the extra expense of private health insurance, even if it is a high priority, until (a) or/and (b) affects their costs. Plus you have dental bills that few insurance companies have meaningful cover for!

Maybe for some of those people sitting in their own homes full of leveraged equity, a comprehensive health insurance policy is an attainable priority...

Why not have a fully taxpayer funded health system for all based on need, which would then relegate private health insurance to very low priority - needed only if you want a luxurious hospital room for overnight stays?

artemis
23-08-2017, 02:59 PM
... Why not have a fully taxpayer funded health system for all based on need, which would then relegate private health insurance to very low priority - needed only if you want a luxurious hospital room for overnight stays?

What is 'need' though? Set the bar low enough and the country's entire tax take would go to health funding.

This is election season. Check out all the groups, health and everything else, whose first sentence includes the word 'more'.

Jay
23-08-2017, 03:14 PM
And NZ First will buy back all your power company shares at the ipo price - affects Kiwsaver and all managed funds etc etc, can't see either party agreeing to that!

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 03:23 PM
What is 'need' though? Set the bar low enough and the country's entire tax take would go to health funding.

This is election season. Check out all the groups, health and everything else, whose first sentence includes the word 'more'.

When private health insurance is sought so that life threatening conditons can be treated promptly, that would be gauge that need is not being met. Funding is of course an issue when treatments are developing and their costs are sky-rocketing. So perhaps we may need to accept that fact that the wealthier will inevitably have longer, healthier(?) and more pain free lives?

Maybe it seems like "more please" is a prevalent phrase as the current government has prioritised tax minimisation over maintenance of public services and infrastructure...

Pork barrel politics is practised by all the parties....to reward those they think may give them the most votes!

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 03:29 PM
When private health insurance is sought so that life threatening conditons can be treated promptly, that would be gauge that need is not being met. Funding is of course an issue when treatments are developing and their costs are sky-rocketing. So perhaps we may need to accept that fact that the wealthier will inevitably have longer, healthier(?) and more pain free lives?

Maybe it seems like "more please" is a prevalent phrase as the current government has prioritised tax minimisation over maintenance of public services and infrastructure...

Pork barrel politics is practised by all the parties....to reward those they think may give them the most votes!

Although, is it a 'reward' when they can't give you a single thing without first taking it either from you or your neighbour?

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 03:37 PM
And NZ First will buy back all your power company shares at the ipo price - affects Kiwsaver and all managed funds etc etc, can't see either party agreeing to that! Nationalisation without adequate compensation - especially if someone bought in after the IPO. Would even China do that these days? Maybe they have introduced that policy so they can negotiate it away, and keep others of their policies, if they hold the balance of power?
.

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 03:39 PM
Taxcinda has taken an increase in the top tax rate 'off the table'. They're now thinking about wealth taxes, and asset taxes to add to the CGT, petrol tax and water taxes. Won't be long before they're back on about death duties and of course that means gift duties.
To think it was Labour who rescued us from this Muldoonism nonsense. How the worm turns.

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 03:39 PM
Although, is it a 'reward' when they can't give you a single thing without first taking it either from you or your neighbour? The parties don't care if the neighbour they take something from would be unlikely to vote for them anyway...

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 03:46 PM
The parties don't care if the neighbour they take something from would be unlikely to vote for them anyway...

Act, and to a lesser degree, National, realise the harm done by taxing incomes to a high degree. Taxcinda and the Kermits have a very different view.

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 04:20 PM
Act, and to a lesser degree, National, realise the harm done by taxing incomes to a high degree. Taxcinda and the Kermits have a very different view.I think Jacinda has just announced that she won't be increasing income tax. Do the wealthier tend to enjoy more in untaxed capital gains these days anyway?

fungus pudding
23-08-2017, 04:37 PM
I think Jacinda has just announced that she won't be increasing income tax. Do the wealthier tend to enjoy more in untaxed capital gains these days anyway?

How would they do that?

artemis
23-08-2017, 04:38 PM
I think Jacinda has just announced that she won't be increasing income tax. Do the wealthier tend to enjoy more in untaxed capital gains these days anyway?

The increase in the top rate was popular with voters.

The problem with a CGT - one of many - is that it only kicks in when an asset is sold. Unless the plan is like the TOP policy.

So if the asset is not sold for years, or maybe ever if in a trust say, any tax revenue is a well down the track. We will have to see what the proposal actually is, and seems that will not be before September 23rd pending the 'expert working group'.

It's a muddle, frankly.

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 04:44 PM
Have any other posters tried the tv one political Vote compass questionnaire gimmick? They had Me placed right over the NZ First Partty, which was frankly quite a shock:) as it would be last on my list! I am tending towards TOP, unless GM continues to come out with Zingers...in which case I would probably be torn between Lab and the Nats.

blackcap
23-08-2017, 04:57 PM
Have any other posters tried the tv one political Vote compass questionnaire gimmick? They had Me placed right over the NZ First Partty, which was frankly quite a shock:) as it would be last on my list! I am tending towards TOP, unless GM continues to come out with Zingers...in which case I would probably be torn between Lab and the Nats.

Yeah I took it, was Nat, Act, NZF then Maori party. Haha interesting you got NZ First. Interesting seeing and reading your comments. I guess the apps/gimmicks are only as good as their inputs (ie how they program answers to parties).

Bjauck
23-08-2017, 05:06 PM
Yeah I took it, was Nat, Act, NZF then Maori party. Haha interesting you got NZ First. Interesting seeing and reading your comments. I guess the apps/gimmicks are only as good as their inputs (it how they program answers to parties). It sounds about right from what I have seen of your posts:)

I thought the questions were often "leading questions" directing you to a certain response...but my opinions do tend to be all over the place from left to right anyway :o

minimoke
23-08-2017, 06:30 PM
Have any other posters tried the tv one political Vote compass questionnaire gimmick? .I got stuck at the first question - but ill persevere

Edit. Managed to navigate that one. But boy I agree, talk about leading questions: What party would get my vote. Isnt that what this is supposed to tell me.

Anyhow ended up pretty near bottom right With Act, National, UNF and TOP being the top 4. Greens at the bottom. No surprise there.

But why is UNF in the poll don't these people read the news! Oh hang on - its a TV One gimmick!

Joshuatree
24-08-2017, 06:52 AM
A snippet from "business sentiment and the 2017 election" on Scoop." Very wise looking at the bigger picture.

Businesses surveyed seem open to change on some social issues. A majority of those surveyed say the conditions that led to Brexit, Trump and the rise of populism in Europe are becoming an issue in New Zealand. More respondents also say socio-economic wellbeing is a key indicator of economic performance than at the last election. And a number of business leaders indicated that they would support an increase in taxation if those funds were used to fund social investment. Finally, more employers also support a minimum wage set at a ‘living wage’ level than before. Overall we are seeing a greater sensitivity to the social environment and the role it plays in maintaining predicable policy settings that businesses like."

"But businesses want lower tax, more access to skilled staff and better performance from the education system, along with more help with research and development. They want better outcomes from local government and the Resource Management Act, more spending on infrastructure and more focus on regional development."

Bjauck
24-08-2017, 08:38 AM
Taxcinda has taken an increase in the top tax rate 'off the table'. They're now thinking about wealth taxes, and asset taxes to add to the CGT, petrol tax and water taxes. Won't be long before they're back on about death duties and of course that means gift duties.
To think it was Labour who rescued us from this Muldoonism nonsense. How the worm turns.

What is the problem with a comprehensive review of taxation? It is an arbitrary decision to rely mainly on taxes on "income" and Goods and services.

Joshuatree
29-08-2017, 10:31 AM
Nothing. its just one tired old barrow tactic from fp etc and national that, they are pushing up an ever steepening hill; falling off it not far away:ohmy:

minimoke
29-08-2017, 11:25 AM
Peters might be one step closer to labour if it is someone within national who leaked his superanuation overpayment

fungus pudding
29-08-2017, 11:31 AM
What is the problem with a comprehensive review of taxation? It is an arbitrary decision to rely mainly on taxes on "income" and Goods and services.

The problem is it's just another tax review, which like all others is simply subjective.

Joshuatree
30-08-2017, 09:16 AM
So do nothing, leave the status quo, yeah right tui, not.

fungus pudding
30-08-2017, 09:39 AM
So do nothing, leave the status quo, yeah right tui, not.

No. Lower taxes - flatten the rates. Possibly eliminate tax on first 20,000 by moving brackets and restructuring working for families.
Lots of things could be done. Certainly dropping top rate from 33% and lowering company tax would benefit the economy.
Increase GST and lower all income tax rates would be good. 'Never discourage anyone from earning - clobber them a bit when they spend it'
As I said, there's heaps that could be done. The current Labour's attitude is simply to raise taxes, or find more things to tax - so they can spend your money. That carry on should have died with Muldoon.

iceman
30-08-2017, 10:02 AM
No. Lower taxes - flatten the rates. Possibly eliminate tax on first 20,000 by moving brackets and restructuring working for families.
Lots of things could be done. Certainly dropping top rate from 33% and lowering company tax would benefit the economy.
Increase GST and lower all income tax rates would be good. 'Never discourage anyone from earning - clobber them a bit when they spend it'
As I said, there's heaps that could be done. The current Labour's attitude is simply to raise taxes, or find more things to tax - so they can spend your money. That carry on should have died with Muldoon.

Well said FP

Joshuatree
30-08-2017, 10:28 AM
Unfortunately national have fiddled for 9 years:scared: and not fixed things its worse, the gap is bigger.

"Doctors are calling for an urgent change in housing, saying the combination of child poverty and "shocking" housing conditions have been normalised."

Suicide reaches a new high etc etc etc.

Children crowded in poor quality damp housing for example are getting a disease normally reserved for the very elderly; a third world disease . National are throwing as much or more money around then labour in a desperate attempt to get in again and fiddle some more; 9 years they've had supporting only their base.

Look at the water situ .70% in a recent poll want water fees on commercial users and the funds put back into restoring water quality to swimmable at least, not "wadeable" which Nick ( the unclean) smith spins about. 1 to 2 cents per 1000 litres. not $100 as some have spun(except maybe for water bottlers)

Major von Tempsky
30-08-2017, 10:34 AM
It seems that Labour's long term disease of tax and spend is worsening.
I'd rather spend my own money thanks and I don't see anyone in the Labour ranks who is a self made man or woman. They're nearly all troughers.

Bjauck
30-08-2017, 10:54 AM
Unfortunately national have fiddled for 9 years:scared: and not fixed things its worse, the gap is bigger.

"Doctors are calling for an urgent change in housing, saying the combination of child poverty and "shocking" housing conditions have been normalised."

Suicide reaches a new high etc etc etc.

Children crowded in poor quality damp housing for example are getting a disease normally reserved for the very elderly; a third world disease . National are throwing as much or more money around then labour in a desperate attempt to get in again and fiddle some more; 9 years they've had supporting only their base.

Look at the water situ .70% in a recent poll want water fees on commercial users and the funds put back into restoring water quality to swimmable at least, not "wadeable" which Nick ( the unclean) smith spins about. 1 to 2 cents per 1000 litres. not $100 as some have spun(except maybe for water bottlers)
The widening gaps in society in recent years are a contrast to much of NZ's history of being in the vanguard of social reform which was to ensure that no NZer would be held back by lack of access to good quality education, health and housing.

westerly
30-08-2017, 10:57 AM
It seems that Labour's long term disease of tax and spend is worsening.
I'd rather spend my own money thanks and I don't see anyone in the Labour ranks who is a self made man or woman. They're nearly all troughers.

And they haven't even written a book ! :)

westerly

ratkin
30-08-2017, 03:40 PM
Accoording to this I agree with 81% of green policies and 80 % Labour.

voting green just not happening

http://newzealand.isidewith.com (http://newzealand.isidewith.com) (http://Www.newzealand.isidewith.com)

artemis
30-08-2017, 04:17 PM
The widening gaps in society in recent years are a contrast to much of NZ's history of being in the vanguard of social reform which was to ensure that no NZer would be held back by lack of access to good quality education, health and housing.

GINI coefficient.

tim23
30-08-2017, 06:14 PM
So you have to be self made to be able to lead or govern - really? We've had some useful Labour
Governments by the way.
It seems that Labour's long term disease of tax and spend is worsening.
I'd rather spend my own money thanks and I don't see anyone in the Labour ranks who is a self made man or woman. They're nearly all troughers.

minimoke
30-08-2017, 06:59 PM
Accoording to this I agree with 81% of green policies and 80 % Labour.

voting green just not happening

http://newzealand.isidewith.com (http://newzealand.isidewith.com)
That was interesting. I couldn't be bothered going up or down the scale so answered every question in the middle. Conservative Party came out bottom. Followed by National. Even Greens rated higher. I think at best that is telling me National has moved way to the left (no surprise there) and away from its constituency.

Edit: Act and top were top 2!

zacman
30-08-2017, 08:29 PM
I don't see anyone in the Labour ranks who is a self made man or woman. They're nearly all troughers.

A common comment heard from diehard Nat supporters. I thought I would check the websites of the 2 main parties to check the bios of the first 10 MPs for each party. Apart from the obvious observation that all MPs are there to get what they can for themselves the background of the Lab MPs is much broader and one could say more relevant.

The Nats have 2 from a farming background but at least the PM can also claim training and employment in economics. Both of those 2 would have been involved in running their farms but I don't know if that qualifies as being "self made". 1 Nat MP did do very well in developing a radio station but I am not sure how that qualifies him to be Min of Finance. 3 were lawyers (enough said )1 a doctor and 1 a Chartered Acct. The final 2 appear to be long term MPs.

The Labour MPs appear to come from adviser/analysis type backgrounds. Jacinda Adern is described as a policy developer and a manager of a NGO. the others were a teacher, a union advocate, Foreign Affairs analysis, a Director of Oxfam, a business manager, a Health advisor x 2, a treasury analysis and finally 1 lawyer.

Undoubtedly they all do what they do because of a political vision. The issue is which vision more closely resembles you own.

However it is wrong to say that either team is not either qualified nor experienced enough to run the country

Joshuatree
31-08-2017, 05:26 PM
I remember at the end of Helen Clarks govt looking at the national wannabes and thinking oh my god what a motley lot! Anyway tonights latest poll is looking great for labour ahead of tonights debate which I'm recording and not watching live in my small protest on Hosings being there. Labour now ahead ;)
Watch: Labour rockets ahead of National in stunning Colmar Brunton Poll result (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjO_Y-y6YDWAhUEf7wKHbStDOAQqUMILTAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvnz.co.nz%2Fone-news%2Fnew-zealand%2Fwatch-labour-rockets-ahead-national-in-stunning-colmar-brunton-poll-result&usg=AFQjCNH0i5stxf5oomwydMv0E_k53oYM5w)

tim23
31-08-2017, 06:16 PM
Its nice to have some time in the sun - keeps the cocky Tories quiet for a while
I remember at the end of Helen Clarks govt looking at the national wannabes and thinking oh my god what a motley lot! Anyway tonights latest poll is looking great for labour ahead of tonights debate which I'm recording and not watching live in my small protest on Hosings being there. Labour now ahead ;)
Watch: Labour rockets ahead of National in stunning Colmar Brunton Poll result (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjO_Y-y6YDWAhUEf7wKHbStDOAQqUMILTAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvnz.co.nz%2Fone-news%2Fnew-zealand%2Fwatch-labour-rockets-ahead-national-in-stunning-colmar-brunton-poll-result&usg=AFQjCNH0i5stxf5oomwydMv0E_k53oYM5w)

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 03:22 PM
Im hearing on national radio that there is a STUNNING" collmar brunton poll coming out tonight.

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 05:15 PM
Latest colmar brunton poll
43% Labour
39% national lowest since 2005 . Lying doesn't pay.
9% up 1 NZ First
5% Greens

777
07-09-2017, 05:19 PM
Take a look at the $ on the release of that poll.

https://www.anz.co.nz/personal/migrants%2Dtravel%2Dforeign%2Dexchange/fx/exchange%2Drate%2Dgraphs/nzd%2Dtwi/

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 05:25 PM
Take a look at the $ on the release of that poll.

https://www.anz.co.nz/personal/migrants%2Dtravel%2Dforeign%2Dexchange/fx/exchange%2Drate%2Dgraphs/nzd%2Dtwi/

I don't imagine the share market tomorrow will think much of it either...

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 05:26 PM
re .31 of a cent down, great for exporters but it prob won't last long enough.Look at the longer term chart and its a blip. Mkts don't like uncertainty.

couta1
07-09-2017, 07:52 PM
Im hearing on national radio that there is a STUNNING" collmar brunton poll coming out tonight. There is only one poll that counts and that's the polling day vote, all others only show a limited fleeting sentiment. Unfortunately a lot of people vote on feel good factors rather than real substance, a stable solid economy is fact, following the rhetoric and hype created by the tax princess is not.

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 08:31 PM
Sure sure, tui.

zacman
08-09-2017, 07:38 AM
It wont be Labour with NZ First. It will be Labour with Greens and maybe Maori. Now that Labour are in front ("the trend is your friend") it is a question as to who will get them across the line. I thought it significant that the votes for Peters as PM fell in that last poll. If that continues where will the NZF votes go? Normally you would say National. However the biggest part of NZF support seems to come from older greypower types. Ardern has committed to keeping Nat Super at 65. She would resign rather than raise the age. English will not give that commitment. I can see NZF votes going to Labour.

What of the Greens ? Historically they have polled close to or over 10%. Their 5% will grow as the Turei factor fades into the background. The question is where will that come from. Possibly Labour but because they have such a narrow focused main philosophy (the environment) I believe that any increase in Green support will not be entirely from Labour.

Interesting times

zacman

iceman
08-09-2017, 08:05 AM
Yes interesting times but I think it is more likely now that The Greens will not even make it into Parliament. That will make Winston a real King or Queen maker. Now that would make it interesting.
You are wrong about Bill and his superannuation policy. It is clear. They will increase the age of eligibility to 67. Increase by 6 months each year from 2037 and by 2040 it will be 67. So older NZF voters today have little or no reason to worry about super. It will not change in their lifetimes under either a Labour or National lead Governments.

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 08:16 AM
I think Greens will ge their 5%. The issues haven't lessened overnight. The one concern here is that many people assume this (like me) and vote labour and the Greens don't quite make it.

couta1
08-09-2017, 07:53 PM
I think Greens will ge their 5%. The issues haven't lessened overnight. The one concern here is that many people assume this (like me) and vote labour and the Greens don't quite make it. The Greens don't quite make it, what a wonderful thought.

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 08:59 PM
Looks like its covered with some labour folk voting tactically and giving the Greens their party vote:t_up:
I can see your discomfort couta. Yellow snow and the environment don't make good bedfellows do they.

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 09:24 PM
Another great idea from labour embraced by 64% of kiwis.DOC are relying on volunteers to keep going; they need more funding as well to protect our flora and fauna.

link below


Environment: Kiwis keen for 'tourist tax' to help cash-strapped DoC (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/07/poll-kiwis-keen-for-tourist-tax-to-help-cash-strapped-doc.html)

minimoke
08-09-2017, 09:45 PM
Looks like its covered with some labour folk voting tactically and giving the Greens their party vote:t_up:.
I think you give labour voters too much interlectual credit

777
08-09-2017, 09:56 PM
I think you give labour voters too much interlectual credit

Imagine if their cleverness meant they ended up with about 24% each.

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 10:13 PM
Imagine theres no heaven ​john lennon

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 10:16 PM
Wow momentum plus:scared::)
The Maori Party is currently a support partner of the sitting National-led government, but following the 1 NEWS multi-leaders debate tonight it is clear Fox has a close affinity for Jacinda Ardern and a Labour coalition. "The most interesting move of the night was Marama Fox revealing she thinks there is a mood for change and there will be a Labour government under Jacinda Ardern," Bradford says.

"She says as she goes door knocking around the country that's the feeling she gets, so that's a very strong move.

"Don't forget Marama Fox and the Maori party support the National government currently, but her language is very warm towards Labour and has been for some time. She would work with them in government absolutely."

iceman
09-09-2017, 05:26 AM
I have to say that Marama Fox came across well in the debate last night. Nobody else really did. Importantly she confirmed what many of us have been saying on these forums, Labour can not take ownership of water and start charging tax on it without compensation for Maori and other stakeholders. She was clear in saying Maori would head to court to "protect their rights". Another Sealord deal or foreshore and seabed fiasco in the making.

Seymour appeared uncomfortable and angry, despite many good policies. Should learn from Taxinda that you need to smile to have a chance.
Winston once again throws a fit and pulled out at the last minute. Clearly none of the minor party leaders want to work with Winston post election. The interesting bit in this election will be to see how many (few) minor parties make it back to Parliament. So far we can only really be fairly sure ACT and Maori parties with 1 each, but the others, only the big poll will tell. Could be a very different MMP Parliament this time around.

minimoke
09-09-2017, 06:50 AM
I have to say that Marama Fox came across well in the debate last night. Nobody else really did. .
I agree with you on the first part, not so much on the second. I thought all the leaders did pretty well and didn't do a bad job articulating their positions. If I was an undecided voter I would be more confused because each made good points.

Interesting none wanted to work with Winston. So to be comforatable labour need NZ First to get a decent chunk of Party Vote.

Shame Winston wasn't there. Don't know why he spat the dummy. But it gave the others the opportunity to shine him as a flake who should net be trusted.

And the segway into TOP - its a shame they weren't there as well. I know TVNZ have their rules but they are polling as well as these other parties so voters should have had an opportunity to hear what they had to say.

Totally agree, if Labour try to tax water, and Maori are in coalition there is going to be one almighty bun fight.

winner69
09-09-2017, 07:39 AM
Looks like its covered with some labour folk voting tactically and giving the Greens their party vote:t_up:
I can see your discomfort couta. Yellow snow and the environment don't make good bedfellows do they.

JT - Hope you leading by example in this tactical battle

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 07:50 AM
I agree with you on the first part, not so much on the second. I thought all the leaders did pretty well and didn't do a bad job articulating their positions. If I was an undecided voter I would be more confused because each made good points.




I did too. Seymour belted out his normal high degree of logic. Damien Light had a tough job, being unknown and in an absolutely no-win position, but good on him for his stance. Nobody would envy him in his position. Marama Fox oozes charisma - always does. James Shaw is never a natural in front of the camera, but he made some excellent points. It was worth watching.

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 02:11 PM
JT - Hope you leading by example in this tactical battle
Thanks w69.Doing whats best in my area; you?

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 02:14 PM
I agree with you on the first part, not so much on the second. I thought all the leaders did pretty well and didn't do a bad job articulating their positions. If I was an undecided voter I would be more confused because each made good points.

Interesting none wanted to work with Winston. So to be comforatable labour need NZ First to get a decent chunk of Party Vote.

Shame Winston wasn't there. Don't know why he spat the dummy. But it gave the others the opportunity to shine him as a flake who should net be trusted.

And the segway into TOP - its a shame they weren't there as well. I know TVNZ have their rules but they are polling as well as these other parties so voters should have had an opportunity to hear what they had to say.

Totally agree, if Labour try to tax water, and Maori are in coalition there is going to be one almighty bun fight.

Its an idea whose time has come; long overdue.Lets conserve and treasure our water and look after it. User pays does just that and most of NZ see the commonsense here.

:t_up:CLEAN and GREEN......AGAIN:t_up:

iceman
09-09-2017, 05:07 PM
JT we have the Motueka River in my area running through the Moutere Plains. In summer, it experiences bad levels of algae blooms particularly in the lower parts of the river. So bad that several dogs have died after jumping in it in recent years. Most scientists agree there are 2 ways to FIX the problem. One is to reduce the water take from the river by 60%. Users are drystock farmers, horticulture, viticulture and the Nelson, Stoke, Richmond and Motueka communities. The other option is to build a dam to store water during this time of year when its plentiful and then flood the river when needed. This would wash away the algae problem. It would also give extra flow of water to use hundreds of hectares more land for horticulture and viticulture, with an estimated 1200-1500 new jobs (I've heard a range from 800-1800). But no, The Greens and so called environmentalists fight the dam proposal with all they've got and so far have been successful. Introducing a tax on water use from this river would not reduce it by the needed 60%, which would kill most of our industries here. So in my area's case, nothing clean nor green about their stand, unless clean and green means no industry or jobs whatsover.

minimoke
09-09-2017, 05:23 PM
Users are drystock farmers, horticulture, viticulture and the Nelson, Stoke, Richmond and Motueka communities. .......But no, The Greens and so called environmentalists fight the dam proposal with all they've got and so far have been successful. Introducing a tax on water use from this river would not reduce it by the needed 60%, which would kill most of our industries here. So in my area's case, nothing clean nor green about their stand, unless clean and green means no industry or jobs whatsover.Iceman, you are failing to see the problem that is to be resolved.

What you have in your area is filthy capitalists whose wealth is made of the backs of serfs and the down trodden. The spread of wealth is uneven. So you cant approve anything that is going to make these pigs wealthier. What you have to do is try to either shift the wealth (through taxes) or reduce the wealth (through lack of capital / resource) so that the "haves" get closer to the "have nots".

Killing the industry is not a bad thing as this balances out society. One of the policy Intended Consequences is that it also reduces the 60% median income level so the number in poverty reduce. Housing pressure is also reduced as these capitalists will be forced to sell all their rental stock, which will flood the market, reduce the price and voila! affordable housing!

I hope you now get why Jacinda can stay silent on Capital gains and taxing the upper incomes. After she has been around a while there wont be any

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 05:29 PM
Fair enough and i know freshes are heathy for rivers. Im not up with this iceman and don't know what the greens solution or reasoning is for this, what their side is atp. But fight the good fight if its the right thing; best of luck. I'd be lobbying labour hard if i were you . I think its the motueka river i remember ; crossing the Pelorus bridge and looking down into that beautiful mesmerising, clear, green water. I believe absolutely that a water charge will save a lot of wasted water(maybe 30% maybe more) and bring conserving it to the fore.Algae blooms with over nitrification i think so a multi pronged approach could work?

iceman
10-09-2017, 06:23 AM
Iceman, you are failing to see the problem that is to be resolved.

What you have in your area is filthy capitalists whose wealth is made of the backs of serfs and the down trodden. The spread of wealth is uneven. So you cant approve anything that is going to make these pigs wealthier. What you have to do is try to either shift the wealth (through taxes) or reduce the wealth (through lack of capital / resource) so that the "haves" get closer to the "have nots".

Killing the industry is not a bad thing as this balances out society. One of the policy Intended Consequences is that it also reduces the 60% median income level so the number in poverty reduce. Housing pressure is also reduced as these capitalists will be forced to sell all their rental stock, which will flood the market, reduce the price and voila! affordable housing!

I hope you now get why Jacinda can stay silent on Capital gains and taxing the upper incomes. After she has been around a while there wont be any

You are correct minimoke. I was not thinking clearly :-)

winner69
10-09-2017, 08:19 AM
Iceman, you are failing to see the problem that is to be resolved.

What you have in your area is filthy capitalists whose wealth is made of the backs of serfs and the down trodden. The spread of wealth is uneven. So you cant approve anything that is going to make these pigs wealthier. What you have to do is try to either shift the wealth (through taxes) or reduce the wealth (through lack of capital / resource) so that the "haves" get closer to the "have nots".

Killing the industry is not a bad thing as this balances out society. One of the policy Intended Consequences is that it also reduces the 60% median income level so the number in poverty reduce. Housing pressure is also reduced as these capitalists will be forced to sell all their rental stock, which will flood the market, reduce the price and voila! affordable housing!

I hope you now get why Jacinda can stay silent on Capital gains and taxing the upper incomes. After she has been around a while there wont be any

My hero the economist Joseph Schumpeter, writing in the 1940s, predicted the eventual demise of capitalism. He did not want this to happen. But he envisaged that the “intellectual class” would eventually develop values which were hostile to free markets and private property. His definition of “intellectuals” were people in a position to develop critiques of the economy and society, but who were themselves not responsible for running them.

Suppose Jacinda falls into this definition

winner69
10-09-2017, 08:28 AM
Must pull out Hayek's Road to Serfdom and have a reread

Back on the Road to Serfdom is an interesting collection of articles on this in the modern context

777
10-09-2017, 09:22 AM
An article written especially for you JT.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11919488

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 10:09 AM
A lot of bias from some media who have their colours pinned to the national mast. Hosings another, as are many on radio stations ZB esp. bill ralston ,bill english's media trainer is giving interviews all over the place with his national bias, mathew hooten(Act ) the same. Listeners are not aware of this thinking its coming from a neutral reporter. Ethical no, dirty yes.

Radio NZ national is the most transparent open unbiased reliable source where you make your informed decisions based on facts not manipulation. imo.

777
10-09-2017, 10:21 AM
A lot of bias from some media who have their colours pinned to the national mast. Hosings another, as are many on radio stations ZB esp. bill ralston ,bill english's media trainer is giving interviews all over the place with his national bias, mathew hooten(Act ) the same. Listeners are not aware of this thinking its coming from a neutral reporter. Ethical no, dirty yes.

Radio NZ national is the most transparent open unbiased reliable source where you make your informed decisions based on facts not manipulation. imo.

Thought you would like it.

Amazing though that you could write a post that doesn't include "lies" and "liars" in it. You are slipping. Jacinda will be on to you.

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 10:51 AM
Gordon Campbell: On National’s Fake News Onslaught (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/09/gordon-campbell-on-nationals-fake-news-onslaught/)


In fact, National can win this election only if it can scare the public about the alternative. Sadly, that’s a sign of the moral erosion that’s happened in conservative politics.....


Its not a new thing. Remember when John Key used to describe Working For Families as “communism by stealth”? Now WFF is core National policy. And Kiwisaver? (Key: “It won’t work. It’s a glorified Christmas Club.”) Now, Kiwisaver too is core National policy. Remember when climate change was just a fanciful notion of those wacky, scary Greens? Now National’s deputy is proudly proclaiming National’s commitment to the Paris agreement.

Six years ago, expert reports on the extent of New Zealand’s child poverty were being brushed aside with partisan ugliness by MSD Minister Paula Bennett in Parliament here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps1_Zr8-AsI) and also here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqa7ZMfMAE0) and by John Key here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsqsjGId77w).

Instead, the Key/English duo has largely just tinkered with what it inherited, while denying the existence of unmet problems in housing, child poverty, public health and income inequality

tim23
10-09-2017, 01:25 PM
Good article - Labour governments have given helped shape NZ today; e.g Kiwisaver, Kiwbank, WFF, Cullen Fund (which National stupidly stopped paying in to), same sex marriage, GST and National gave us the Employments Contract Act, car less days and benefit cuts.
Gordon Campbell: On National’s Fake News Onslaught (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/09/gordon-campbell-on-nationals-fake-news-onslaught/)


In fact, National can win this election only if it can scare the public about the alternative. Sadly, that’s a sign of the moral erosion that’s happened in conservative politics.....


Its not a new thing. Remember when John Key used to describe Working For Families as “communism by stealth”? Now WFF is core National policy. And Kiwisaver? (Key: “It won’t work. It’s a glorified Christmas Club.”) Now, Kiwisaver too is core National policy. Remember when climate change was just a fanciful notion of those wacky, scary Greens? Now National’s deputy is proudly proclaiming National’s commitment to the Paris agreement.

Six years ago, expert reports on the extent of New Zealand’s child poverty were being brushed aside with partisan ugliness by MSD Minister Paula Bennett in Parliament here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps1_Zr8-AsI) and also here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqa7ZMfMAE0) and by John Key here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsqsjGId77w).

Instead, the Key/English duo has largely just tinkered with what it inherited, while denying the existence of unmet problems in housing, child poverty, public health and income inequality

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 10:29 PM
National's TPP11 leaves key questions unanswered (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/08/national-s-tppa11-leaves-key-questions-unanswered.html). Australia got an agreement, with no foreigners to buy houses there but not us here. What else is hidden in this opaque agreement being pushed?

NZ should renegotiate TPP now - Grant Robertson (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/08/nz-should-renegotiate-tpp-now-grant-robertson.html)

pole.pole
12-09-2017, 10:39 AM
I expect everyone knows that all this electioneering is purely to gain votes and get in. What happens after that will be anyone's guess. Last elections National were selling off the electricity companies and the other parties were against it and we're going to do all sorts of things to reverse the decision. This election it hasn't come up again. There is no way Labour can do all they have promised and it seems everyone who wants more are all putting there hands up at the moment. There is only one party that can really promise more cash in your pocket next year. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.