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minimoke
12-08-2017, 09:35 PM
So we've heard of the Pay Equity Act.

This is where National decided to interfere in the employment relationship between employers and their employees. Thats something we'd expect Labour or the Greens to do.

Its where they decided to introduce what is essentially a national Award, just like back in the good old Labour days.

Its where they decide the pay rate will be well above Minimum wage, not the market. it will no doubt have an impact of dragging minimum wage up. Notice how silent they are on the Living Wage?

Its where National have driven costs up with no requirement to improve productivity or efficiency. Sounds like the Greens to me.

It has added billions to the health vote.

And guess who has to pay - its the elderly in care who have worked hard all their lives. They are the ones bearing the cost.

So essentially its Nationals way of shifting wealth much like Robin Hood.

Not much to fear from the Greens or Labout with National around

minimoke
15-08-2017, 06:53 AM
Nationals meddling with the wages of aged care workers now turning up the unintended but foreseeable consequences. Mental Health workers now wanting equity. But Min of Health interfering in good faith between the two parties by saying its not to be done.

artemis
15-08-2017, 07:10 AM
Nationals meddling with the wages of aged care workers now turning up the unintended but foreseeable consequences. Mental Health workers now wanting equity. But Min of Health interfering in good faith between the two parties by saying its not to be done.

The Minister said it was agreed with the unions and the MoH that mental health workers would not be included in the settlement. I believe a case is now to go to the Employment Court.

The MoH is a party to the issue as it is the primary funder of mental health staff. Funding is provided for specific budget allocations. MoH says it is not allowed to be reallocated unilaterally. (If funding is available for the increase elsewhere in the budget, then those DHBs are overfunded.)

I have not seen numbers relating to recent shortage of mental health workers, or those moving across to the aged care sector. Just the union saying it is happening. It is reasonable to expect some indication of the quantum - maybe the government has numbers.

Yes, Pandora's box has been opened as many predicted.

minimoke
15-08-2017, 08:03 AM
Yes, Pandora's box has been opened as many predicted.
Next it will be teacher aides. Thats what happens when you start labbeling honest work "womens work".

Major von Tempsky
15-08-2017, 10:41 AM
Really? I'm an Oldie and I don't feel screwed at all!

fungus pudding
15-08-2017, 10:46 AM
Really? I'm an Oldie and I don't feel screwed at all!

I'm an oldie too, and it's been such a long time ..........

minimoke
15-08-2017, 11:40 AM
Really? I'm an Oldie and I don't feel screwed at all!
Wait until you go into care. Hopefully you have your estate planning sorted.

(The $2b bill has to come from somewhere so hopefully your shares remain profitable - we need the tax)

artemis
15-08-2017, 12:39 PM
Yes it is those who have been careful with their money that will see a rise in care cost. Those qualifying for the government subsidy will not be affected.

Moral hazard eh?

minimoke
15-08-2017, 12:52 PM
Yes it is those who have been careful with their money that will see a rise in care cost.
Moral hazard eh?
Sure is. Those that worked hard and invested well get clobbered. Loafers and layabouts continue to enjoy tax payer largesse. And that's Nationals bright idea - nicking labour voters while gifting NZ First.

fungus pudding
15-08-2017, 01:24 PM
Sure is. Those that worked hard and invested well get clobbered. Loafers and layabouts continue to enjoy tax payer largesse. And that's Nationals bright idea - nicking labour voters while gifting NZ First.

It's pretty much that right through life in Godzone, regardless of whose in Govt. at the time. If you are unable to take care of yourself financially the state will provide; if you are able, but don't bother, the state will still provide - but otherwise you cover your costs, and why shouldn't you?

minimoke
15-08-2017, 01:44 PM
- but otherwise you cover your costs, and why shouldn't you?
I have no difficulty covering your own costs.

I do have difficulty with any governent who arbitrarily raises those costs - especially where there is no improvement in service. And where there is no ability to earn extra to cover those costs. And where those costs are an interference in the statutory standards that provide for good faith bargaining and agreement.

jonu
15-08-2017, 02:01 PM
I reckon those who care for society's most vulnerable deserve a good wage. Aged care, mental health, nursing and the disability sector have always been underfunded. It is a black mark on our society and I actually commend National for doing something (albeit reluctantly) about it.

artemis
15-08-2017, 02:22 PM
I reckon those who care for society's most vulnerable deserve a good wage. Aged care, mental health, nursing and the disability sector have always been underfunded. It is a black mark on our society and I actually commend National for doing something (albeit reluctantly) about it.

Good wage? Deserve? Underfunded? Compared to what? Where does it end? Include other tough, physical, dirty or dangerous jobs often done by low skilled, low education people? Or bump up other staff pay to retain relativity? Or is it just taxpayer funded roles, which most in those sectors you mention are?

Already seeing some small private residential care facilities close down with others indicating they will have to follow or cut expenses.

Minimoke is right to say the aged care pay rises do not come with an increase in productivity. The larger aged carer providers will continue to be busy reviewing for efficiencies, including automating functions as it becomes cheaper than warm bodies.

Joshuatree
15-08-2017, 02:32 PM
"Low skilled low education people". Where have you been and whats your pedestal made of? A lot of care givers for all sorts of reasons; quite a few because its their calling to aid those less fortunate. More about caring and compassionate people , not some sort of inferior people to you or me.

minimoke
15-08-2017, 02:35 PM
I reckon those who care for society's most vulnerable deserve a good wage.
And "good" ought to be that freely negotiated between employee and employer.

So what happens now to those vulnerable people who have no where to live because their provider has gone bust.

What happens to those vulneable people who will get less care as providrrs try to balance their books by reducing shifts or care hours or overtime.

And to those old folk who now cant afford to get their glasses or hearing aids replaced and now basic things like a haircut will be a luxury.

Everybody deserves a good wage - i am not sure why some are more deserving than others. Like teacher aides who are helping mould the future.

And why should they get pay rises just because you sit in your job another year. That's not fair on the vulnerable - their quality of care hasn't improved but their costs go up.

minimoke
15-08-2017, 02:37 PM
"Low skilled low education people". Where have you been and whats your pedestal made of? A lot of care givers for all sorts of reasons; quite a few because its their calling to aid those less fortunate. More about caring and compassionate people , not some sort of inferior people to you or me.so its not about the money / pay then!

artemis
15-08-2017, 02:38 PM
"Low skilled low education people". Where have you been and whats your pedestal made of? A lot of care givers for all sorts of reasons; quite a few because its their calling to aid those less fortunate. More about caring and compassionate people , not some sort of inferior people to you or me.

Do you deny that many people on low or minimum wage are there because they can't get better pay elsewhere? Sure some will be happy with low pay because that is their 'calling'.

But of course there all the mental health workers who are apparently deserting their jobs in droves for the better pay in the aged care sector. And good on them, even if they don't have a 'calling'.

minimoke
15-08-2017, 02:40 PM
But of course there all the mental health workers who are apparently deserting their jobs in droves for the better pay in the aged care sector. And good on them, even if they don't have a 'calling'.
I bet families of mental health patients arent too happy about that - but those vulnerable patients obviously dont count.

Major von Tempsky
15-08-2017, 03:13 PM
I went to a session run by lawyers for oldies and the basic advice was spend everything, don't worry about anything for the kids and the goevernment will look after you.
Goes against my fundamental nature, I prefer to ensure I have a big enough private income to pay for Care so I can leave the rest to the kids.

I hate the thought of the government looking after me, whaddya take me for? A bludging grovelling socialist?

blackcap
15-08-2017, 03:15 PM
I went to a session run by lawyers for oldies and the basic advice was spend everything, don't worry about anything for the kids and the goevernment will look after you.

Rather than spend, why not gift or give everything to the kids early and then the govt can look after you without you having to eat the house as its long gone. Is this not what would happen in any event if the rules were to change?

jonu
15-08-2017, 03:15 PM
"Low skilled low education people". Where have you been and whats your pedestal made of? A lot of care givers for all sorts of reasons; quite a few because its their calling to aid those less fortunate. More about caring and compassionate people , not some sort of inferior people to you or me.

We agree on something JT!

minimoke
15-08-2017, 03:18 PM
I went to a session run by lawyers for oldies and the basic advice was spend everything, don't worry about anything for the kids and the goevernment will look after you.
Goes against my fundamental nature, I prefer to ensure I have a big enough private income to pay for Care so I can leave the rest to the kids.

Whereas my non legal advice would be to spend and gift everything over time till you get to $220,000

777
15-08-2017, 03:22 PM
Whereas my non legal advice would be to be responsible for your own care like you have been doing all your life. Its called personal responsibility.

minimoke
15-08-2017, 03:41 PM
Whereas my non legal advice would be to be responsible for your own care like you have been doing all your life. Its called personal responsibility.
All good until the government throws you a $20 a day curve ball.

777
15-08-2017, 03:49 PM
All good until the government throws you a $20 a day curve ball.

One should budget for increases just like you have been doing your whole life. Is an increase in tax rates not a curved ball should it happen?

minimoke
15-08-2017, 04:14 PM
One should budget for increases just like you have been doing your whole life.
Cost of Living (or 1.7% inflation adjusted) would be reasonable. When was the last time tax was changed so a person had to pay 15% more?

fungus pudding
15-08-2017, 04:16 PM
Rather than spend, why not gift or give everything to the kids early and then the govt can look after you without you having to eat the house as its long gone. Is this not what would happen in any event if the rules were to change?

Gifting your wealth/assets to the kids, and expecting the tax payer to pay your way is far from the right thing to do.

minimoke
15-08-2017, 04:27 PM
Gifting your wealth/assets to the kids, and expecting the tax payer to pay your way is far from the right thing to do.
There is nothing at all illegal about this. And a consumer of aged care services is a tax payer - both PAYE and GST.

777
15-08-2017, 04:46 PM
All gifting is looked at when you apply. How far back they go I do not know.

artemis
15-08-2017, 05:07 PM
Info here on deprivation of income and gifting. Mostly the last 5 years is looked at, but with limits. Unless the gifting is considered 'extraordinary', in which case looks like they can go back forever if they choose to.

http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/life-stages/health-older-people/long-term-residential-care/income-and-asset-testing

Not that many people go into residential care. Don't know current numbers but remember seeing 12% back in the day. Those that do go into care tend not to live for a long time. One experienced care worker told me about 6 months is around average.

minimoke
15-08-2017, 06:16 PM
Info here on deprivation of income and gifting. Mostly the last 5 years is looked at, but with limits. Unless the gifting is considered 'extraordinary', in which case looks like they can go back forever if they choose to.

http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/life-stages/health-older-people/long-term-residential-care/income-and-asset-testing Which is why family trusts arent the avoidance vehicle of choice anymore


Not that many people go into residential care. Don't know current numbers but remember seeing 12% back in the day. Those that do go into care tend not to live for a long time. One experienced care worker told me about 6 months is around average.But with an aging population more are staying in their own home BUT getting Carer assistance to keep them as "independent" for as long as possible. The Pay Equity deal hits these people as well.

westerly
15-08-2017, 07:20 PM
I'm an oldie too, and it's been such a long time ..........

I can empathise with that comment :)

westerly