sharesies.nz

[sonny n share]

sharesies.nz
-$30pa
-small choice of smartshares
-daily purchase/sale at market at no fee
-Easy to deal with and transact
-Might be of interest to some of you out there

I have signed up, transferred a small amount, and placed an order

[Kelvin]

investnow.co.nz
-$0pa
-small choice of smartshares
-daily purchase/sale at market at no fee
-Easy to deal with and transact
-Might be of interest to some of you out there

I have signed up, transferred a small amount, and placed an order

[sonny n share]

that's a better fee.

[Kelvin]

Yes, there's not much Sharsies offers that's better than InvestNow.

As for the lower minimum investment on Sharsies ($5 vs $250), save your money in the bank until you have $250, then move it over into InvestNow saving $30 in the process

[Jonboyz]

I received some answers to a couple of questions I asked InvestNow that may be of interest. This is an email response from Phil Howison from InvestNow:

"If InvestNow went into liquidation, you would still retain ownership of any investments you held through us. All our client assets are held by an independent custodian (Adminis Custodial Nominees Ltd) and we have no direct control of these funds. More information on this here: https://investnow.co.nz/faq-items/how-are-my-funds-protected/

If you buy Smartshares through InvestNow, you could transfer them to your own name if you wanted to then sell them through another broker. But please note that there would likely be additional costs associated with doing this, e.g. brokerage. You can sell Smartshares through InvestNow with no fees or brokerage."

Looks like a pretty good system. They make their profit by charging the funds management companies to be listed. I'm going to transfer my existing smartshare holdings from Link to Investnow and any further smartshare investments will go through them.

[scottwalshnz]

With no fees, could this be used as a trading account?

[Snow Leopard]

InvestNow Still has the $30 Per annum fee, a $30 establishment fee per fund and annual admin of $12 or 18 if you want a paper statement.

https://investnow.co.nz/no-transaction-or-admin-fees-and-no-middleman/how-do-we-compare/

....

Go read that again, slowly & carefully, you may then spot that your statement above is incorrect in every detail :(.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[Jonboyz]

They do their trades on market –Smartshares orders are pooled daily at 12pm and sent off to the broker.

[SeanL]

Go read that again, slowly & carefully, you may then spot that your statement above is incorrect in every detail :(.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger


Who has time to read things slowly and correctly - well picked

[jonu]

Who has time to read things slowly and correctly - well picked

Wisely spoken. It pays not to mess with the Tiger

[777]

Article in the herald about sharesies

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11909293

[heisenberg]

Looking for a solid international equity fund. Quite like having exposure to Vanguard ETFs but isn’t a necessity and would prefer to stick to PIE. Please help me decide between

SuperLife 100
SuperLife Overseas Shares Fund
Fisher Funds Global Fund
Smartshares Total World

Cheers

[sonny n share]

Perhaps a combination of
-s&p 500
-reits
-small cap value
-international
-emerging

as per
https://paulmerriman.com/the-ultimate-buy-and-hold-strategy-2017/


as for smartshares vs superlife vs investnow:
https://thesmartandlazy.com/2017/06/13/smartshares-superlife-simplicity-investnow-etf-index-fund-investing-in-new-zealand/

[sonny n share]

ETFs for Australian residents

For Australian residents, does anyone know if there is an equivalent to investnow, or superlife where there is no, or low yearly fee, and no transaction costs?


stockspot.com.au charges $5.50 /month



Also strange that Vanguard Australia charge 0.9% fee which seems high.

https://www.vanguardinvestments.com.au/retail/ret/investments/product.html#/productType=retail



Blackrock have lower costs about 0.19% but you have to buy them via a broker so that is not suitable if you want to make small purchases
https://www.blackrock.com/au/individual/ishares/core-series



robinhood - no fee share trading has not started yet

https://robinhood.com/au/







Thanks in advance for any tips
Also I could not find the new thread option so I put it in here

[Kelvin]

You can use this to buy US ETFs https://stake.com.au/

The catch is you have to buy in USD and pay the currency conversion cost from AUD to USD

[sonny n share]

Thanks
Interesting

Coming to NZ too !

https://stakeshop.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/35000016521-is-stake-coming-to-new-zealand-

[Pipi]

I see that Sharesies is looking at kids accounts and you can invest as little as $5. This would be great for my daughter, as I want her to buy into several index funds, but at $50 a month, her pocket money wouldn't allow it. I have emailed investnow and asked when they will have kids accounts and if they would consider lowering the $50 even it if was for under 18 year old. Be interesting to see what they come back with.

[blackcap]

I see that Sharesies is looking at kids accounts and you can invest as little as $5. This would be great for my daughter, as I want her to buy into several index funds, but at $50 a month, her pocket money wouldn't allow it. I have emailed investnow and asked when they will have kids accounts and if they would consider lowering the $50 even it if was for under 18 year old. Be interesting to see what they come back with.

Why not just set up with Sharesies? I see they have changed their fee structure too, so its no the $30 per annum up front. Its monthly now and goes on the balance you have invested. The less invested, the less you pay so it may be worth considering them.

[Pipi]

Why not just set up with Sharesies? I see they have changed their fee structure too, so its no the $30 per annum up front. Its monthly now and goes on the balance you have invested. The less invested, the less you pay so it may be worth considering them.

Yes will look into it. Investnow got back to me super quick. They do have kids accounts, and you can invest monthly, bimonthly or half yearly, so that won't strain the pocket money to much.
Funny though, she was sprung at school doing something super naughty so among other punishments she has to do her chores for 1 month without pocket money. That will hurt the bank account.

[Pipi]

So sharesies kids accounts are up and running now. I'm a bit confused, sos if anyone could advise that would be great.

They have a few investments that are recommended for kids because of the tax advantage being PIR and the tax rate can be 10.5%, but they are managed funds and most of them don't pay dividends, so you are relying on growth. Where if you invest in an index fund they pay a flat rate of 28%. Which from my understanding is you can apply for tax credits, which goes against their tax account and offsets income once they start earning, which for my daughter is a way off, she is only 12.
I personally prefer index funds myself, but are the recommended ones a better option for my daughter?
Also they say for dividends that: "Any distributions paid by the companies are retained by this fund". What does that mean, if there are any dividends paid who gets them. I can understand a business retaining earning so they can grow the business, but a fund is different surely?

[unhuman]

I imagine it works similar to kiwisaver etc, where any income generated from the units held are used to buy more units. Think of it as an enforced DRP.

[Aaron]

So sharesies kids accounts are up and running now. I'm a bit confused, sos if anyone could advise that would be great.

They have a few investments that are recommended for kids because of the tax advantage being PIR and the tax rate can be 10.5%, but they are managed funds and most of them don't pay dividends, so you are relying on growth. Where if you invest in an index fund they pay a flat rate of 28%. Which from my understanding is you can apply for tax credits, which goes against their tax account and offsets income once they start earning, which for my daughter is a way off, she is only 12.
I personally prefer index funds myself, but are the recommended ones a better option for my daughter?
Also they say for dividends that: "Any distributions paid by the companies are retained by this fund". What does that mean, if there are any dividends paid who gets them. I can understand a business retaining earning so they can grow the business, but a fund is different surely?

As unhuman says any dividend and interest income would probably be reinvested. Not sure the distinction you are making regarding a managed fund and an index fund and the 28% flat rate. Leaving the whole dividend/growth question as I would assume most investment funds would have a mix of both and that mix of dividend/capital gain(growth) would differ depending on their investment strategy.

Just considering Portfolio Investment Entities (PIE) and individual Prescribed Investor Rates (PIR), my understanding is that if you are investing in a PIE you make a declaration regarding your PIR which can be 10.5%, 17.5% or 28% depending on your income level.
Generally PIE income is excluded income so you do not include it in your income tax return. The tax is paid by the PIE fund. If you use a PIR rate that is too high IRD keeps the overpaid tax, if you use a PIR rate that is too low you are supposed to include the PIE income in your income tax return and pay the shortfall. Pretty rude. As long as your kids total income is less than $14,000 10.5% would be correct in any PIE fund. I would not use the 28% rate as my understanding is you are not supposed to be able to claim back the overpayment of tax.

[Pipi]

As unhuman says any dividend and interest income would probably be reinvested. Not sure the distinction you are making regarding a managed fund and an index fund and the 28% flat rate. Leaving the whole dividend/growth question as I would assume most investment funds would have a mix of both and that mix of dividend/capital gain(growth) would differ depending on their investment strategy.

Just considering Portfolio Investment Entities (PIE) and individual Prescribed Investor Rates (PIR), my understanding is that if you are investing in a PIE you make a declaration regarding your PIR which can be 10.5%, 17.5% or 28% depending on your income level.
Generally PIE income is excluded income so you do not include it in your income tax return. The tax is paid by the PIE fund. If you use a PIR rate that is too high IRD keeps the overpaid tax, if you use a PIR rate that is too low you are supposed to include the PIE income in your income tax return and pay the shortfall. Pretty rude. As long as your kids total income is less than $14,000 10.5% would be correct in any PIE fund. I would not use the 28% rate as my understanding is you are not supposed to be able to claim back the overpayment of tax.

Thanks for your reply Aaron. The distinctions I was making is that on sharesies the managed funds are PIR so yes I have her at 10.5%, where as if I buy her an index fund they charge 28%, so from a tax perspective the managed funds are the way to go.

Got an email back and the dividends by some of them are keep, not reinvested as such in that you don't get more units, but the unit price increases. So it should increase at each dividend payment.

[johndoe123]

http://investmentnews.co.nz/investment-news/blackrock-joins-smartshares-set-new-online-brokers-queued-plus-40-billion-platform-pipeline-for-nzx/

Sharesies working with NZX to introduce direct share investing. Will be interesting to see the pricing model for this in Sharesies. A break away from their target market of set & forget investors. Single stock investing involves a bit more research.

[blackcap]

http://investmentnews.co.nz/investment-news/blackrock-joins-smartshares-set-new-online-brokers-queued-plus-40-billion-platform-pipeline-for-nzx/

Sharesies working with NZX to introduce direct share investing. Will be interesting to see the pricing model for this in Sharesies. A break away from their target market of set & forget investors. Single stock investing involves a bit more research.

It will be nigh on impossible to trade shares via sharesies is my initial thought. If they are not a broker they will have to deal through one. So they will still only put the orders through once per day (or maybe some increased frequency) but it will be bulk orders and not your order when you place it at your limit. Then they will just have to charge what the current brokers do to remain competitive. But for buy/hold pundits this will be great.

[Kelvin]

Sharesies released a beta of their share trading functionality yesterday and i wrote a review here https://moneykingnz.com/buying-shares-on-the-nzx-sharesies-vs-asb-securities-and-direct-broking/

I'll personally be sticking with Direct Broking. I like having the shares in my own name so i can participate in DRPs, and i hold long term so wanna avoid the account fee that Sharesies charges

[justakiwi]

As I said elsewhere Sharesies is not really designed for investors with large amounts of money to invest. It was set up to provide an avenue for small investors to get investing now, with small, regular investments, at no/very little cost. It is the best thing since sliced bread for me right now. Yes, there are some additions that could be made such as DRP, but I believe those things will come down the track. The individual companies trading is seamless and simple. I put an order in around 9.30 am and it processed and confirmed by lunchtime. From what I remember bulk orders are put through several times a day - not just once. I’m too tired to go check that so don’t take my word for it.

It is is an ideal platform for beginners to get started.


Sharesies released a beta of their share trading functionality yesterday and i wrote a review here https://moneykingnz.com/buying-shares-on-the-nzx-sharesies-vs-asb-securities-and-direct-broking/

I'll personally be sticking with Direct Broking. I like having the shares in my own name so i can participate in DRPs, and i hold long term so wanna avoid the account fee that Sharesies charges

[justakiwi]

They are not charging what brokers do. 0.5% for orders up to $3000 plus an additional 0.1 % for orders over $3000. For small investors this is much cheaper than going through a broker. Sharesies is not designed for the rest of you.


It will be nigh on impossible to trade shares via sharesies is my initial thought. If they are not a broker they will have to deal through one. So they will still only put the orders through once per day (or maybe some increased frequency) but it will be bulk orders and not your order when you place it at your limit. Then they will just have to charge what the current brokers do to remain competitive. But for buy/hold pundits this will be great.

[blackcap]

I see my initial synopsis was wrong and that sharesies are a NZX participant. Their brokerage is a lot cheaper than ASB or DB and once they allow limit orders I can see them decimating the likes of DB and ASB. I am placing a $1,000 this morning. It is going to cost $30 via DB or via Sharesies I pay $5.

I know where I am going, I am buying this one at market.

[couta1]

I see my initial synopsis was wrong and that sharesies are a NZX participant. Their brokerage is a lot cheaper than ASB or DB and once they allow limit orders I can see them decimating the likes of DB and ASB. I am placing a $1,000 this morning. It is going to cost $30 via DB or via Sharesies I pay $5.

I know where I am going, I am buying this one at market. Sharesies no good for trading though unless they can offer live depth charts.

[peat]

Sharesies no good for trading though unless they can offer live depth charts.
or investing, if you wish to own the investment (have it in your name)

[blackcap]

Sharesies no good for trading though unless they can offer live depth charts.

Agreed, and no good if you want to vote at AGM's and other events at this stage. But once they allow limit orders it may be a game changer.

[justakiwi]

That bothered me a bit when I first signed up but after reading all the fine print and talking to Sharesies staff, I lam not concerned about that anymore. The shares are mine and processes and protections are in place to ensure that. I am very happy with Sharesies. Cannot fault their customer service and they passion they have for what they have set up. It is a breath of fresh air to find a company that is putting the needs and wants of customers first. They have vision and are constantly seeking feedback on what additional features we would like to see, so I expect we will have options like limit orders, paper/printable contract notes, auto orders for companies, ability to buy warrants and much more, in the not too distant future.


or investing, if you wish to own the investment (have it in your name)

[RTM]

That bothered me a bit when I first signed up but after reading all the fine print and talking to Sharesies staff, I lam not concerned about that anymore. The shares are mine and processes and protections are in place to ensure that. I am very happy with Sharesies. Cannot fault their customer service and they passion they have for what they have set up. It is a breath of fresh air to find a company that is putting the needs and wants of customers first. They have vision and are constantly seeking feedback on what additional features we would like to see, so I expect we will have options like limit orders, paper/printable contract notes, auto orders for companies, ability to buy warrants and much more, in the not too distant future.

That’s what I thought with Halifax to. That the shares were held custodially for me.
Turns out somehow this is not correct.

[justakiwi]

From Sharesies website:

”How we protect your money and investments
Our top priority is to keep your money and investments secure.
We keep detailed records of all money in your Wallet and investments in your account.We use Sharesies Nominee Limited to hold your money and investments on bare trust for you. Sharesies Nominee is separate from the daily business operations of Sharesies Limited. This means your money is held separately to the money Sharesies Limited uses to pay staff, and buy office stuff, like stationery and coffee.Sharesies Nominee will never use money or investments held for you for the benefit of itself, us, or any other person.We get audited each year to ensure we are meeting our legal obligations for our custody service.”

That’s what I thought with Halifax to. That the shares were held custodially for me.
Turns out somehow this is not correct.

[blackcap]

Just purchased 411.157 shares in PGW at $2.42. A $1,000 order and the "brokerage or commission" was only $5.

[justakiwi]

Link to full explanation of custodial service:

https://www.sharesies.nz/ourblog/2019/9/23/behind-the-scenes-sharesies-custodial-service

[peat]

yeh I get that it is 'safe' , and I have an account with Sharesies with about 4% of my portfolio, mostly in funds
but as per RTM's experience
for me it is a very important factor to have control over your stuff (or at least the bulk of it).
Complications over ownership are where a lot of issues seem to occur.


From Sharesies website:

”How we protect your money and investments
Our top priority is to keep your money and investments secure.


We keep detailed records of all money in your Wallet and investments in your account.We use Sharesies Nominee Limited to hold your money and investments on bare trust for you. Sharesies Nominee is separate from the daily business operations of Sharesies Limited. This means your money is held separately to the money Sharesies Limited uses to pay staff, and buy office stuff, like stationery and coffee.Sharesies Nominee will never use money or investments held for you for the benefit of itself, us, or any other person.We get audited each year to ensure we are meeting our legal obligations for our custody service.”

[justakiwi]

Things are always improving with Sharesies. We now have contract notes for every purchase, which we didn’t have when I signed up. Down the track I hope these will be able to be printed off for anyone who likes to keep a “paper trail” of investments.

I haven’t sold any investments and don’t intend to anytime in the near future, so I can’t comment on the efficiency of the selling process or whether anyone has experienced any issues, but if the selling process works as well as the buying process does, I don’t envisage any major issues. It seems that Sharesies have covered all bases with their custodial service so for now at least, I trust them and their processes. I am a beginner though, so there is always a chance I’ve “missed” something. Time will tell.


yeh I get that it is 'safe' , and I have an account with Sharesies with about 4% of my portfolio, mostly in funds
but as per RTM's experience
for me it is a very important factor to have control over your stuff (or at least the bulk of it).
Complications over ownership are where a lot of issues seem to occur.

[blackcap]

Things are always improving with Sharesies. We now have contract notes for every purchase, which we didn’t have when I signed up. Down the track I hope these will be able to be printed off for anyone who likes to keep a “paper trail” of investments.

I haven’t sold any investments and don’t intend to anytime in the near future, so I can’t comment on the efficiency of the selling process or whether anyone has experienced any issues, but if the selling process works as well as the buying process does, I don’t envisage any major issues. It seems that Sharesies have covered all bases with their custodial service so for now at least, I trust them and their processes. I am a beginner though, so there is always a chance I’ve “missed” something. Time will tell.

I am pretty comfortable too. I guess the only worry is say that Sharesies goes under, and the liquidator takes the assets that are in the custodial service...

Otherwise it should be foolproof.

[couta1]

I am pretty comfortable too. I guess the only worry is say that Sharesies goes under, and the liquidator takes the assets that are in the custodial service...

Otherwise it should be foolproof. That's why I like ASB or DB they are big fish in a small pond, I dont want a Halifax type scenario with the size of my account.

[justakiwi]

But from what I read at the link above, in the event of Sharesies going bust, the liquidators would not have access Sharesies Nominee Limited. They would be liquidating Sharesies Limited, not the Nominee Company. At least that is how I am reading it.

“If anything were to happen to Sharesies Limited, your money would still be safe because it’s held completely separately in Sharesies Nominee Limited and the NZX Depository! We hold your money and investments in Sharesies Nominee Limited and the NZX Depository ‘on bare trust’. This means we’re holding it on your behalf and in our name, but they still belong to you. We can’t do anything to your money or investments unless you tell us to (e.g. when you use Sharesies to deposit/withdraw money, or buy/sell shares).


I am pretty comfortable too. I guess the only worry is say that Sharesies goes under, and the liquidator takes the assets that are in the custodial service...

Otherwise it should be foolproof.

[blackcap]

But from what I read at the link above, in the event of Sharesies going bust, the liquidators would not have access Sharesies Nominee Limited. They would be liquidating Sharesies Limited, not the Nominee Company. At least that is how I am reading it.

“If anything were to happen to Sharesies Limited, your money would still be safe because it’s held completely separately in Sharesies Nominee Limited and the NZX Depository! We hold your money and investments in Sharesies Nominee Limited and the NZX Depository ‘on bare trust’. This means we’re holding it on your behalf and in our name, but they still belong to you. We can’t do anything to your money or investments unless you tell us to (e.g. when you use Sharesies to deposit/withdraw money, or buy/sell shares).

Agree, it should be safe, its just that you do not 100% know that sharesies actually do put the investments into Sharesies NOminee Limited. And Trust have been busted in the past by good lawyers. Who is to say nominee accounts cannot be busted either. But I am no expert in these matters at all, just have a passing interest. Maybe someone with more knowledge can clarify the matter.

[justakiwi]

True, but if Sharesies were not putting investments into the Nominee Account, as they should be, the annual audit would surely capture that. I get where you’re coming from. I guess we just have to do our homework and follow our gut instincts to some extent.


Agree, it should be safe, its just that you do not 100% know that sharesies actually do put the investments into Sharesies NOminee Limited. And Trust have been busted in the past by good lawyers. Who is to say nominee accounts cannot be busted either. But I am no expert in these matters at all, just have a passing interest. Maybe someone with more knowledge can clarify the matter.

[blackcap]

True, but if Sharesies were not putting investments into the Nominee Account, as they should be, the annual audit would surely capture that. I get where you’re coming from. I guess we just have to do our homework and follow our gut instincts to some extent.

The annual audit would capture that, by then it may be too late. But yes gut instinct initially and time will increase their perceived viability and trust. I have spoken to the founders and exec team and am comfortable with my minimal investment there.

[winner69]

One needs faith that they keep doing things properly

[peat]

One needs faith that they keep doing things properly

and this contradicts rule : DTA

[blackcap]

Are now offering live market depth for the price of $10 per month. That seems very reasonable.

[turnip]

Are now offering live market depth for the price of $10 per month. That seems very reasonable.

Not the cheapest though. ASB give access to market depth for three months after making a trade, minimum borkerage is $15/trade, so you could get access to market depth for effectively $5/month by making one small trade every three months.

[justakiwi]

From this week’s Sharesies newsletter:

Last week was a record breaking week—with 9,700 new investors joining Sharesies, and a whopping $81M being traded via Sharesies into funds and companies!
In the next couple of months, we’ll be adding US shares to Sharesies—giving you more access, and more options to grow your wealth! We can’t give you an exact launch date just yet, but we’ll be sharing more details with you as we go. To get early access, register your interest on the Sharesies website.

Sharesies is possibly having a bigger impact than we think.

[peat]

NZX advise that volume has increased four times since a while back.
Their website says they did $38.8 billion last year. which is only 100 mill per day
They say in a video that they did 1.3 billion last week.
I see Sharesies announced they did a record 80 million in a week.
If Sharesies are creating significan transactional volume increases , on only 80M a turnover week then they should be pushed to the side of the road. That is less than 20% value on a normal week. But it will only be 5% of the increased volume so they are a piddle in the bucket and yet are stuffing up the system.

BBMP
Bring Back Minimum Parcel sizes (honestly its not that much)

[BIRMANBOY]

Long term view would seem to be that all of the new investors can only help the NZ share market. Advantages would be obvious...makes for more liquidity across the board as well as allowing access to another form of investment rather than just Term Deposits, kiwi saver and lotto tickets. :cool: Also many of the new entrants will continue on and become bigger investors as time goes by. More investors help drive up prices which benefits existing holders. Short term problems obviously for the NZX adjusting technology to cope with new growth but one assumes that will be overcome sooner rather than later. I think its great that there is another generation of investors created here. When you think about an investor just using a couple of hundred dollars it may seem a bit futile to a seasoned investor, but when you view it as a cumulative exercise and also consider the number of investors, it looks completely different. Go Sharesies. :t_up:

[justakiwi]

Wow. So much bitterness. You’re the 2 year old who doesn’t want to share the playground.



If Sharesies are creating significant transactional volume increases , on only 80M a turnover week then they should be pushed to the side of the road. That is less than 20% value on a normal week. But it will only be 5% of the increased volume so they are a piddle in the bucket and yet are stuffing up the system.

BBMP
Bring Back Minimum Parcel sizes (honestly its not that much)

[peat]

Wow. So much bitterness. You’re the 2 year old who doesn’t want to share the playground.

No I'm not bitter but its finance not tiddlywinks.

I have followed your posts and fully applaud your investing and the strategy and totally agree that diversification is important for any portfolio
but even you aren't buying 3 shares or 27 shares you're buying small parcels that cost $500 minimum and that's totally cool.
I bought my first bond from Northern Territory Australia for $A500 - that was the minimum size and still wasn't worthwhile when I took exchange costs into account.

There must have been a reason for a minimum parcel and now we know what it was.

[blackcap]

No I'm not bitter but its finance not tiddlywinks.

I have followed your posts and fully applaud your investing and the strategy and totally agree that diversification is important for any portfolio
but even you aren't buying 3 shares or 27 shares you're buying small parcels that cost $500 minimum and that's totally cool.
I bought my first bond from Northern Territory Australia for $A500 - that was the minimum size and still wasn't worthwhile when I took exchange costs into account.

There must have been a reason for a minimum parcel and now we know what it was.

I tend to disagree with you on this one Peat. Technology has allowed the minimum parcel sizes to be redundant. I too used to know the term "odd lot".
Unfortunately it is the NZX that is not up to the party here trying to run a modern system on old hard/software. The NZX have made Sharesies a market participant. More fool them if they did not see the enthusiasm that the ordinary folk had for investing in shares and being able to make their own balanced portfolios with minimal $.
I am in the process of making my own index fund, which I will manage and invest in on my own behalf. Now with Sharesies it is possible to do something like that even with a portfolio value of even say $25k. In the past it would have been prohibitive.

[justakiwi]

Mmmm .... I have no idea why you think that, but no I am not.

Prior to covoid I was investing $40 a week, split between 4 holdings. One of which is USF. So every week I was buying 1 point something of a USF share, and varying small amounts of my other holdings. Lately, I have not been making regular weekly orders but buying here and there as funds permit, if I think there is some value in buying. Yesterday I bought 30 something shares.

Which, as far as I am concerned, is also “totally cool.”



but even you aren't buying 3 shares or 27 shares you're buying small parcels that cost $500 minimum and that's totally cool.

[SBQ]

I tend to disagree with you on this one Peat. Technology has allowed the minimum parcel sizes to be redundant. I too used to know the term "odd lot".
Unfortunately it is the NZX that is not up to the party here trying to run a modern system on old hard/software. The NZX have made Sharesies a market participant. More fool them if they did not see the enthusiasm that the ordinary folk had for investing in shares and being able to make their own balanced portfolios with minimal $.
I am in the process of making my own index fund, which I will manage and invest in on my own behalf. Now with Sharesies it is possible to do something like that even with a portfolio value of even say $25k. In the past it would have been prohibitive.

How are you accomplishing this in a NZ market presence by sector / industry? The NZ50 alone is too risky with so many in that list that will be destined for bankruptcy. Will you be tracking every stock in that sector and do all the rebalancing? How about the high commissions for making trades ; which will reflect in your annual cost? If lowering risk through diversification is your strategy, i'm afraid you won't do it in the NZ market.

[SBQ]

Mmmm .... I have no idea why you think that, but no I am not.

Prior to covoid I was investing $40 a week, split between 4 holdings. One of which is USF. So every week I was buying 1 point something of a USF share, and varying small amounts of my other holdings. Lately, I have not been making regular weekly orders but buying here and there as funds permit, if I think there is some value in buying. Yesterday I bought 30 something shares.

Which, as far as I am concerned, is also “totally cool.”

We have crossed paths many times justakiwi over the past couple of years on this forum. If you recall, I made a response that it was more likely a stock market crash were to occur and it's not so strategic to put all your $ in a timely way of investing (ie in weekly contributions like Kiwi Saver). I mentioned to the person wanting to start investing, I replied that there would be a high probability of a stock market crash in the near short or long term future because we've come a long way since 2008. Now here we are justakiwi witnessing this major global crisis. WTI crude oil has crashed to negative territory (never in history has this happened).

What does this mean from now on? Well, to those starting to invest, i'm afraid they would be in a better position than those that have stayed invested for the past 2 or 3 years. This is the reason for the increase interest in investing as we've see by the Sharesies data.

[blackcap]

How are you accomplishing this in a NZ market presence by sector / industry? The NZ50 alone is too risky with so many in that list that will be destined for bankruptcy. Will you be tracking every stock in that sector and do all the rebalancing? How about the high commissions for making trades ; which will reflect in your annual cost? If lowering risk through diversification is your strategy, i'm afraid you won't do it in the NZ market.

I will be using the NZ50 as a proxy. In my younger years I used to administer a passive NZ fund. Its not that difficult to do in Excel. I will have parameters so that rebalancing only has to be done weekly (or monthly) and there will be some leeway in the requirements to avoid unnecessary transactions. Brokerage on Sharesies is so low that this is immaterial. Other passive funds also have brokerage to contend with yet its not a problem for them. As with passive funds, I will not be trying to pick winners or losers. Just invest within the parameter and get the index return (including the management fee which I will pocket myself) Ie not have to pay Smartshares their 0.54% per annum or whatever it is these days.

[peat]

I tend to disagree with you on this one Peat. Technology has allowed the minimum parcel sizes to be redundant. I too used to know the term "odd lot".

Unfortunately it is the NZX that is not up to the party here trying to run a modern system on old hard/software. The NZX have made Sharesies a market participant.


If technology had made it the concept of minimum parcels redundant then its quite likely we wouldn't be having these problems would we?

Although I do agree that NZX have miscalculated regarding the impact Sharesies has had so ultimately it is their fault and not Sharesies. Exchanges should be able to cope with much larger volumes than their daily averages
But I still think its worthwhile some cantankerous old rissole like me pointing out where the problem (probably) arises from.

And I've also pointed out - sometime before the Corona crash - that all these tiny investors signalled the end of the bull market. Oddly they are staying around tho so clearly we have a lot further to fall.

[ratkin]

Wow. So much bitterness. You’re the 2 year old who doesn’t want to share the playground.

Another personal attack, why do you not stick to the issues?

[BIRMANBOY]

I cannot see what the problem is? if you look at the traffic on the sales and buys to me it looks like the Sharesies investors are doing quite a bit of buying. In order to test it out I joined up and made a few buys...its very simple..well designed...operates quickly and buying on market my buys were literally filled (and showed) instantly. Admittedly this was on a fairly quiet performer but when I looked at the sales you could see that 90% of those showing were Sharesies people (smaller quantities). My take on this is, firstly buys, though probably smaller individually, actually added up to something more substantial when you put them together. AND this was enabling the largeish sell order to be fulfilled, even if it was in smaller chunks. Dare I say it but sharesies is possibly helping the market from falling further. See below the DB sale chart for Augusta a minute ago....all look like Sharesies




Recent Trades






Price
Volume
Time
Cond


91
2
12:26



90.5
49
12:17



90.5
25
12:17



90.5
28
12:17



90
16
12:00



90.5
2
12:00



90.5
108
12:00



90.5
22
11:59



90.5
11
11:48



90.5
44
11:46



90.5
220
11:29



90.5
146
11:25



90.5
11
11:24



90.5
55
11:07



90.5
28
10:57







If technology had made it the concept of minimum parcels redundant then its quite likely we wouldn't be having these problems would we?

Although I do agree that NZX have miscalculated regarding the impact Sharesies has had so ultimately it is their fault and not Sharesies. Exchanges should be able to cope with much larger volumes than their daily averages
But I still think its worthwhile some cantankerous old rissole like me pointing out where the problem (probably) arises from.

And I've also pointed out - sometime before the Corona crash - that all these tiny investors signalled the end of the bull market. Oddly they are staying around tho so clearly we have a lot further to fall.

[peat]

I cannot see what the problem is?

The problem is that online brokers are very slow in updating trade status , as in hours or overnight in some cases.
.
The brokers are blaming NZX systems and now we can see NZX accept that responsibility.

NZX have confirmed It is a transactional capacity issue which is presumably brought on by a large number of smaller retail investors that have entered the market for various reasons recently facilitated mainly by Sharesies who operate with no minimum transaction size.

[justakiwi]

So if we agree that it is an NZX issue, which hopefully they will address, can we give Sharesies and Sharesies investors a break? There is room for all of us, and we all have a part to play, regardless of the size of our pay checks, wallets or portfolios.


The problem is that online brokers are very slow in updating trade status , as in hours or overnight in some cases.
.
The brokers are blaming NZX systems and now we can see NZX accept that responsibility.

NZX have confirmed It is a transactional capacity issue which is presumably brought on by a large number of smaller retail investors that have entered the market for various reasons recently facilitated mainly by Sharesies who operate with no minimum transaction size.

[BIRMANBOY]

No I absolutely understand that the capacity is compromised, but as I mentioned earlier this is probably something that will be in the process of being fixed. Its the period in between that is frustrating for investors. As a website builder (but not programmer), I know that it takes time to get things changed and improvements made...and ..all at the time when the s**t hit the fan. One would assume that when the agreement was made between Sharesies and NZX, the NZX engineers worked on the assumption that they could build into the system gradually as the levels grew. Unfortunately, the triple whammy of bear market, covid-19 and huge influx of new investors from Sharesies has buggered the "graduality" of it. Important to recognise that the Sharesies is not to blame however. I think we can all recognise that more investors is good overall and hopefully improvements will be forthcoming soon. :)
The problem is that online brokers are very slow in updating trade status , as in hours or overnight in some cases.
.
The brokers are blaming NZX systems and now we can see NZX accept that responsibility.

NZX have confirmed It is a transactional capacity issue which is presumably brought on by a large number of smaller retail investors that have entered the market for various reasons recently facilitated mainly by Sharesies who operate with no minimum transaction size.

[peat]

So if we agree that it is an NZX issue, which hopefully they will address, can we give Sharesies and Sharesies investors a break? T

not really !!

coz the NZX has made a mistake where the impact goes beyond themselves - after all this is a regulated monopoly provider
The people who pay most of the fees in the industry generated through transactional costs (I.e the decent sized players using online brokers or even standard retail brokers ) are being penalised with delays all so that a lot of penny and dime transactions (generating hardly any fees for anybody) can be dealt with.

It doesn't seem quite fair to me.

However let me make it quite clear that I don't personally care myself all that much ! Because I day trade using a CFD provider and invest using an online broker where minute by minute prices are not so imperative that I can deal with it using limits etc. Hence why I have chastised Sharesies for causing the problem I have also suggested day traders use a different mechanism , one that is more able to provide instantaneous results.



all the best justakiwi, I sincerely am glad you can buy securities (but lets be real - the cost of you doing so is actually being paid for by larger investors)



<subject closed from me>

[justakiwi]

I am sorry I am costing you money. Sincerely.



all the best justakiwi, I sincerely am glad you can buy securities (but lets be real - the cost of you doing so is actually being paid for by larger investors


Probably best.




<subject closed from me>

[blackcap]

not really !!

.



all the best justakiwi, I sincerely am glad you can buy securities (but lets be real - the cost of you doing so is actually being paid for by larger investors)



<subject closed from me>

Maybe the cost is being subsidised. But that is because the NZX have set the rules the way they have set them. If you don't like it don't play in their pool. Seems like you have done that already with your CFD positions.
I too have done that, now using Sharesies more than I would use Direct Broking. If everyone left Direct/ASB and went and used Sharesies it would be problem solved and everyone benefits. It is Direct Broking and ASB that need to adapt or they will become the relics that got taken over by digital disruptors. If the NZX does not allow them to adapt then they need to lobby the NZX or change their own business model. Direct, 20 years ago, was the disruptor themselves and which I was part of instigating. They may need to evolve again.

[justakiwi]

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/retail-phenomenon-helps-nzx-trading-volumes-soar?fbclid=IwAR0T6s0-5C0epTMF_tURU7RCZENRDDJPxYt-Wfm-FYyu40J67oBQeN5gn7c

Refreshing to see somebody also sees this as a positive.

[peat]

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/retail-phenomenon-helps-nzx-trading-volumes-soar?fbclid=IwAR0T6s0-5C0epTMF_tURU7RCZENRDDJPxYt-Wfm-FYyu40J67oBQeN5gn7c

Refreshing to see somebody also sees this as a positive.

article also says

"
it was institutional traders buying and selling big-name companies like Auckland International Airport and A2 Milk that were the biggest drivers of volumes."

[justakiwi]

Yes, which is as you would expect, but I think it also shows that the world of investment is changing, and there is room for all of us.

EDIT: Just saw this in Sharesies “Lunch Money” newsletter

6 May 2019:
43,000 investors
$13.8m invested through Sharesies

6 May 2020:
146,000+ investors
$370m+ invested through Sharesies

There is a place for us.


article also says

"
it was institutional traders buying and selling big-name companies like Auckland International Airport and A2 Milk that were the biggest drivers of volumes."

[peat]

There is a place for us.

Yes there is of course but the cost (not always $ cost) of divvying up parcels into less than $500 should fall on Sharesies administration not on NZX
I reckon they NZX caved in because they are shrinking from no new listings and needed revenue so badly that they couldn't negotiate a good deal with Sharesies. But hey pure speculation on my part.....

[blackcap]

Yes there is of course but the cost (not always $ cost) of divvying up parcels into less than $500 should fall on Sharesies administration not on NZX
I reckon they NZX caved in because they are shrinking from no new listings and needed revenue so badly that they couldn't negotiate a good deal with Sharesies. But hey pure speculation on my part.....

The question I have though Peat, is is there a cost to the NZX of having a bunch of small trades go through? I understand in the past that brokers were not happy with odd lots as there was a lot of registration and administration to contend with (especially before CSN). But now with shares held in nominee by Sharesies, I fail to understand the cost that is imposed on the NZX for the small parcels that go through the screen. Maybe a bit of bandwidth but apart from that nothing else.

[peat]

The question I have though Peat, is is there a cost to the NZX of having a bunch of small trades go through? I understand in the past that brokers were not happy with odd lots as there was a lot of registration and administration to contend with (especially before CSN). But now with shares held in nominee by Sharesies, I fail to understand the cost that is imposed on the NZX for the small parcels that go through the screen. Maybe a bit of bandwidth but apart from that nothing else.

the cost is borne by those who experience delays in their order processing due to overloading of the NZX systems, you know what everyone has been bitching about recently. each transaction has to be recorded even if its going to the same nominee account.

[blackcap]

the cost is borne by those who experience delays in their order processing due to overloading of the NZX systems, you know what everyone has been bitching about recently. each transaction has to be recorded even if its going to the same nominee account.

I was listening to a presentation by Mark Peterson (CEO of NZX) a few weeks ago. He implied that the delays etc were not an NZX problem but rather a broker back office problem.

That is at odds with the NBR presentation of things. But either way, it means the NZX or brokers need to get with the times (ie the digital age). They have not invested enough in that space is the conclusion I draw.

[peat]

I was listening to a presentation by Mark Peterson (CEO of NZX) a few weeks ago. He implied that the delays etc were not an NZX problem but rather a broker back office problem.

That is at odds with the NBR presentation of things. But either way, it means the NZX or brokers need to get with the times (ie the digital age). They have not invested enough in that space is the conclusion I draw.

Wow that would appear to be bull dung of the greatest order
Even NZX released a statement saying it was them



"NZX has experienced several technical issues in the last six




trading days. The root cause of these issues appears to stem from a




significant increase in trading volumes "


Although I note it later says "



The incidents primarily involve NZX's clearing and settlement system, which




has come under significant pressure as it also acts as the gateway to report




trade notifications and undertake shareholder balance enquiries for certain




market participants." …..


as if to say that that there are different systems reporting trade notification and s/h balance enquiries for different participants.





I honestly thought NZX had accepted responsibility for the delays.

[blackcap]

Wow that would appear to be bull dung of the greatest order
Even NZX released a statement saying it was them



"NZX has experienced several technical issues in the last six




trading days. The root cause of these issues appears to stem from a




significant increase in trading volumes "


Although I note it later says "



The incidents primarily involve NZX's clearing and settlement system, which




has come under significant pressure as it also acts as the gateway to report




trade notifications and undertake shareholder balance enquiries for certain




market participants." …..


as if to say that that there are different systems reporting trade notification and s/h balance enquiries for different participants.





I honestly thought NZX had accepted responsibility for the delays.










That is what I had thought too, but Mark from what I heard seemed to be blaming the brokers more than the NZX. Either way, the NZX have allowed Sharesies to operate on their platform, just like the algo traders, and if theirs systems are not up to it then they need to solve them. Then again they do run a monopoly so what would they care if they annoy Direct and ASB. Mark Peterson should know though, until recently wasn't he the CEO of Direct Broking?

[audiav]

Just wondered if those using Sharesies have any particular strategy? Usually I buy via ASB and have 3-5 NZ holdings. Didn’t investigate Sharesies till recently. Decided to dollar cost average into a NZ agriculture (wine/fruit/fish) basket If my choosing which is kinda cool. Thinking about doing the same for farming and forestry (probably using proxy’s such as POT).

[RTM]

https://moneykingnz.com/buying-shares-on-the-nzx-sharesies-vs-asb-securities-and-direct-broking/

May be of interest. I’ll be staying with DB with my fingers crossed it gets a refresh at some stage.
Apologies if posted elsewhere.

[Beagle]

Got an email with new site for DB going live next month. Those happy to be the Guinea pigs and test drive it get one free trade.
I'm happy to play possum from time to time but I'm happy to let others iron out the flaws and play Guinea pig.

On the Sharsies thing, yeah I think its great that this makes investing affordable and enables newcomers to get into a wide range of investments but its not for me, I like my investments in my name with absolute and total control over them.

[ratkin]

Lots of snobbery/ hate towards sharsies on this forum.

Have not used the platform myself yet but I see they are going to offer US shares. Does anyone know if these will be subject to FIF rules? or does the fact you do not actually own the shares mean it will be exempt?

[peat]

Lots of snobbery/ hate towards sharsies on this forum.

Have not used the platform myself yet but I see they are going to offer US shares. Does anyone know if these will be subject to FIF rules? or does the fact you do not actually own the shares mean it will be exempt?

I'd expect so wouldnt you, beneficial interest even if it is as you say.
I agree I do have a certain resentment to Sharesies but am using it as an experiment. Its pretty ok. No depth would be the worst thing though you can buy that now at $10/mth.

You know I think the reason I resent it is because I didnt think it could be done, and now that it has I am jealous I never had it haha.

[Panda-NZ-]

Interesting to see how to us shares aspect of this is planned for.

[SBQ]

Lots of snobbery/ hate towards sharsies on this forum.

Have not used the platform myself yet but I see they are going to offer US shares. Does anyone know if these will be subject to FIF rules? or does the fact you do not actually own the shares mean it will be exempt?

Another outfit is called Hatch that is already offering trading in US equities.

Some years ago I went to a local NZ Shareholder Assn here in Christchurch. They had a representative talk about their Sharsies business. I asked specifically about FIF and what happens and who is responsible about reporting etc. The presenter did not really answer my question so I assumed they did not know. Something tells me is it's entirely up to the client to report to IRD under FIF once they go over that $50K NZD threshold. Sharesies and Hatch only do the minimum requirement such as W8BEN reporting requirements etc.

[blackcap]

Another outfit is called Hatch that is already offering trading in US equities.

Some years ago I went to a local NZ Shareholder Assn here in Christchurch. They had a representative talk about their Sharsies business. I asked specifically about FIF and what happens and who is responsible about reporting etc. The presenter did not really answer my question so I assumed they did not know. Something tells me is it's entirely up to the client to report to IRD under FIF once they go over that $50K NZD threshold. Sharesies and Hatch only do the minimum requirement such as W8BEN reporting requirements etc.

I think you will find you are correct. Sharesies and Hatch are no more no less like Direct Broking and ASB. Just a facilitator of a trade. It is up to the client to report to the IRD. Always has been the case. I think there are many new investors in NZ who have no idea what FIF is or even what trading profits are.

[ratkin]

I think you will find you are correct. Sharesies and Hatch are no more no less like Direct Broking and ASB. Just a facilitator of a trade. It is up to the client to report to the IRD. Always has been the case. I think there are many new investors in NZ who have no idea what FIF is or even what trading profits are.

To be fair FIF is a diabolical invention that needs a massive overhaul. This 50k limit is ridiculous as is the big long list of what is, and is not exempt, it one big confusing mess.

[blackcap]

To be fair FIF is a diabolical invention that needs a massive overhaul. This 50k limit is ridiculous as is the big long list of what is, and is not exempt, it one big confusing mess.

Totally agree. If they made the limit $1m it would make more sense. At that level you have the economies of scale to hire an accountant/software to work it all out for you. Anything under that is a joke.

[justakiwi]

Info re this from Sharesies, to those who registered interest in US shares:

FIF tax
If you have over $50,000 NZD invested in overseas investments, you’ll be subject to the Foreign Investment Fund (FIF) tax rules (https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/income-tax-for-businesses-and-organisations/types-of-business-income/foreign-investment-funds-fifs). If you’re in this situation, Sharesies won’t be handling your tax for you and you should seek tax advice.
If you have less than $50,000 NZD invested in overseas investments, you don’t need to worry about this!


I think you will find you are correct. Sharesies and Hatch are no more no less like Direct Broking and ASB. Just a facilitator of a trade. It is up to the client to report to the IRD. Always has been the case. I think there are many new investors in NZ who have no idea what FIF is or even what trading profits are.

[gains]

Someone previously suggested the strong market recovery could've been due to sharesies. Mainly novice investors just throwing some cash into stocks without any knowledge.

Will make today very interesting as we see trading commence, I imagine a lot of panic selling will happen if they are novice investors.. Today might prove the theory true or false..

[Saamee]

Does anyone have either the Mobile number or Email address for Brooke Roberts?? ( CEO of Sharesies )

Wish to contact her regarding poor customer service..... :(

[winner69]

IRD possibly going deem sharesies punters traders

Taxing the Sharsies generation
https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/opinion/taxing-the-sharesies-generation

[Muse]

IRD possibly going deem sharesies punters traders

Taxing the Sharsies generation
https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/opinion/taxing-the-sharesies-generation

Not necessarily against Sharesies users (that's just the headline) - but doing a big piece of work on how they will approach the gains not being report as income by "direct" / DIY investors that use platforms like Sharesies, other similar new platforms, as well as traditional ASB securities / Jarden direct etc. I read the IRD work programme this arvo not a lot in there but I've heard from my tax friends they expect the IRD to start doing a lot more risk reviews into people's investments and trades and issue more guidance on what they perceive to be capital and revenue account for people who invest directly.