ACT's David Seymour - i like his style.

[davflaws]

Did someone say Labour are crashing .. or was that about to be washed out in the mother of large avalanches ? ;)

The polls seem pretty clear. We can expect to be governed by an ACT/Nat coalition containing a large proportion of people like Balance. I can only hope that their apparent hatred and contempt of those less able and fortunate than themselves is tempered by pragmatism.

Their veins certainly don't overflow with the milk of human kindness, and if ACT have a big influence, I fear we are heading for a harsher more punitive ideologically driven regime which will increase inequality and ultimately make us all worse off.

[Balance]

The polls seem pretty clear. We can expect to be governed by an ACT/Nat coalition containing a large proportion of people like Balance. I can only hope that their apparent hatred and contempt of those less able and fortunate than themselves is tempered by pragmatism.

Their veins certainly don't overflow with the milk of human kindness, and if ACT have a big influence, I fear we are heading for a harsher more punitive ideologically driven regime which will increase inequality and ultimately make us all worse off.

No government has done as GREAT a job as this Labour government of Hipkins, Ardern & Robertson of destroying the economic, social and racial fabric of NZ - period.

Go back to your cloud cuckoo land of kindness and equality via breeding parasites, beneficiaries, criminals and losers, davflaws.

Where is the Red Queen of Woke Ardern who was going to lead you to that paradise?

Tell us what she has delivered to better NZ in the last 6 years?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1691100335060-VCWQ5NZMSCF2M6DZKW7L/The+Book.jpg?format=500w

Correction - She promised 1 BILLION trees. Instead she overspent the budget by tens of billions of dollars, loading up on debt for future generations to carry - that's how generous the red Queen was.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The polls seem pretty clear. We can expect to be governed by an ACT/Nat coalition containing a large proportion of people like Balance. I can only hope that their apparent hatred and contempt of those less able and fortunate than themselves is tempered by pragmatism.

Their veins certainly don't overflow with the milk of human kindness, and if ACT have a big influence, I fear we are heading for a harsher more punitive ideologically driven regime which will increase inequality and ultimately make us all worse off.

Nobody does hatred and contempt like the Left. Leftism is all about grouping people according to various tropes & then spending your whole life wracked with envy and thirsting for violent revolution, howling about how things aren’t ‘fair’, and calling other people ‘selfish’ at every opportunity. The irony is that many of the people who spend their lives decrying capitalism actually do extremely well out of parasitically tapping into the financial benefits & higher living standards that a capitalistic society enjoys. You’ll note that not many of them are in a hurry to move to socialist utopias like Venezuela and North Korea….better to sit here in some ivory tower or public service role, absolutely milking it while lashing out at ‘selfishness’ and ‘neoliberalism’.

[Panda-NZ-]

Their veins certainly don't overflow with the milk of human kindness, and if ACT have a big influence, I fear we are heading for a harsher more punitive ideologically driven regime which will increase inequality and ultimately make us all worse off.

Joining the hordes who have already left NZ is an option.

Kiwis out -> Migrants in while Lux pretends to be an "economic manager", and public services and wages decline.

[Balance]

Joining the hordes who have already left NZ is an option.

Kiwis out -> Migrants in while Lux can pretend to be an "economic manager" while public services and wages decline.

From panda-nz who asserts that France and Australia are returning to the Stone Age for banning mobiles in school.

Kiss my arse.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Joining the hordes who have already left NZ is an option.

Kiwis out -> Migrants in while Lux can pretend to be an "economic manager" while public services and wages decline.

Kiwis out & migrants in is what is happening under Labour. Exploited immigrants living in their own filth, 40 to a house, with no food and no hope. It seems Labour have actually given up on governing, yet want to be elected back in as the government. Extraordinary that an NZ First voter such as yourself - who would obviously favour low immigration - spends all your time defending Labour and attacking National.

Hey, we just gained 19 new people for every 1000 already living here. This will show up when you try to see a doctor, when you need a procedure at the hospital, when you try to get a rental property, when you want to take a drive on one of our clogged roads, when you go to purchase goods on the CPI basket. More strain on our creaking infrastructure, more inflationary pressures. Stupid is as stupid does. We are an idiocracy.

https://www.interest.co.nz/economy/124254/strong-arrivals-non-nz-citizens-relaxation-border-restrictions-changes-immigration

Strong arrivals of non-NZ citizens, relaxation of border restrictions & changes to immigration settings drive record net migration gain

12th Sep 23, 11:10am

‘Provisional estimates show New Zealand experienced a record net migration gain of 96,200 in the July year, Statistics NZ says.
The gain stems from net gains of non-NZ citizens, follows progressive relaxation of Covid-19-related border restrictions from early 2022, and changes to immigration settings, says Statistics NZ. The gain reverses a net migration loss of 14,500 in the July 2022 year.
The previous net migration peak of 91,700 in the March 2020 year was partly due to travellers arriving in late 2019 and early 2020 prolonging their NZ stay as Covid-19 border and travel restrictions took effect, Statistics NZ says.
“The record net migration gain in the July 2023 year follows 12 months of a fully open New Zealand border and equates to a net gain of about 19 people per 1,000 population,” Statistics NZ population indicators manager Tehseen Islam says.’

[Panda-NZ-]

Kiwis out & migrants in is what is happening under Labour. Exploited immigrants living in their own filth, 40 to a house, with no food and no hope. It seems Labour have actually given up on governing, yet want to be elected back in as the government. Extraordinary that an NZ First voter such as yourself - who would obviously favour low immigration - spends all your time defending Labour and attacking National.

It will be turbocharged - the situation for the NZ median wage earner is hopeless.

Rents up, wages down, public services cut.. here's 20 bucks.

[Panda-NZ-]

Kiwis out & migrants in is what is happening under Labour. Exploited immigrants living in their own filth, 40 to a house, with no food and no hope. It seems Labour have actually given up on governing, yet want to be elected back in as the government. Extraordinary that an NZ First voter such as yourself - who would obviously favour low immigration - spends all your time defending Labour and attacking National.


You complain about slums but NAct (esp with the influence of Seymour) will remove most of the housing quality standards so NZers will soon join them.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It will be turbocharged now - the situation for the NZ median earner is hopeless.

Rents up, wages down, public services cut.. here's 20 bucks.

What has $20 bucks got to do with anything? You’re a pitiful broken record on this subject. And getting rid of scores of useless bureaucrats will have no impact whatsoever on the delivery of public services, contrary to boring Left wing dogma.

We are talking about the insanity of Labour’s ‘open the floodgates’ immigration boom. Get used to high inflation as a consequence: Treasury says it’ll remain high until the end of 2024 now.

———

Treasury: Migration boom has stabilised housing market, and eased labour shortages - but will worsen inflation

‘Households and businesses will feel the pinch for longer as Treasury predicts inflation will stay high until the end of 2024, and that interest rates may need to be hiked even further to get it under control.’

[Panda-NZ-]

What has $20 bucks got to do with anything? You’re a pitiful broken record on this subject. And getting rid of scores of useless bureaucrats will have no impact whatsoever on the delivery of public services, contrary to boring Left wing dogma.


National has cover to announce frontline public service cuts by saying "David seymour wanted this".

They will likely be a coalition after all.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You complain about slums but NAct (esp with the influence of Seymour) will remove most of the housing quality standards so NZers will soon join them.

You’re just repeating Left wing talking points, as any propagandist would. The actual substance of ACT’s policy has been ignored by you and replaced with a simple lie. Lying has been a hallmark of Labours campaign & I don’t doubt for a moment that you are a committed Labourite. Your talk of voting for Winston is just laughable.

[Panda-NZ-]

Is winston running on deregulating housing standards? I didn't see that anywhere.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Is winston running on deregulating housing standards? I didn't see that anywhere.

I couldn’t give a hoot what he’s running on, as he seems to forget about everything except the baubles of office once he’s in the cat-bird seat.

[Panda-NZ-]

I couldn’t give a hoot what he’s running on, as he seems to forget about everything except the baubles of office once he’s in the cat-bird seat.

Such as, being made a knight?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Such as, being made a knight?

If you don’t know how he’s personally got plum roles out of past coalition agreements then I can’t help you. I assume the other party in any debate has a basic knowledge of past events. Vote for him to lower immigration & he’ll grab the Deputy PM role instead. Vote for him to deal with the ‘treaty grievance industry’ & he’ll pocket the coveted Minister of Foreign Affairs role instead.

[Balance]

Nobody does hatred and contempt like the Left. Leftism is all about grouping people according to various tropes & then spending your whole life wracked with envy and thirsting for violent revolution, howling about how things aren’t ‘fair’, and calling other people ‘selfish’ at every opportunity. The irony is that many of the people who spend their lives decrying capitalism actually do extremely well out of parasitically tapping into the financial benefits & higher living standards that a capitalistic society enjoys. You’ll note that not many of them are in a hurry to move to socialist utopias like Venezuela and North Korea….better to sit here in some ivory tower or public service role, absolutely milking it while lashing out at ‘selfishness’ and ‘neoliberalism’.

Here's what to expect from the Leftist Labour Coalition of HATE :

Brickbat

Goes to Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, who told Q+A’s Jack Tame that National and Act want to see Māori die seven to 10 years early. Just incredible.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1691612681811-D9LMARSVE48IZHOKQCOA/Organ+grinders.jpg?format=500w

[Logen Ninefingers]

Here's what to expect from the Leftist Labour Coalition of HATE :

Brickbat

Goes to Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, who told Q+A’s Jack Tame that National and Act want to see Māori die seven to 10 years early. Just incredible.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1691612681811-D9LMARSVE48IZHOKQCOA/Organ+grinders.jpg?format=500w

Pre-European Maori had a life expectancy of 28 - 30 years, and their ‘healthcare system’ and dietary intake were rudimentary at best.

For example:
‘Bracken fern root was an important staple for many iwi. Eating this increases the chance of cancer. The fibrous Māori diet meant people tended to wear their teeth out, which over time led to malnutrition, disease and death.’

So tell me again how ‘colonisation’ has lead to appalling outcomes for Maori….

https://teara.govt.nz/en/te-hauora-maori-i-mua-history-of-maori-health/page-1

[Logen Ninefingers]

Pre-European Maori had a life expectancy of 28 - 30 years, and their ‘healthcare system’ and dietary intake were rudimentary at best.

For example:
‘Bracken fern root was an important staple for many iwi. Eating this increases the chance of cancer. The fibrous Māori diet meant people tended to wear their teeth out, which over time led to malnutrition, disease and death.’

So tell me again how ‘colonisation’ has lead to appalling outcomes for Maori….

https://teara.govt.nz/en/te-hauora-maori-i-mua-history-of-maori-health/page-1

The below certainly seems preferable to karking it at 30….

‘Life expectancy for Māori males was 73.4 years in 2017–2019 (up 3.0 years from 2005–2007), and 77.1 years for Māori females (up 2.0 years).’

[davflaws]

Pre-European Maori had a life expectancy of 28 - 30 years, and their ‘healthcare system’ and dietary intake were rudimentary at best.

For example:
‘Bracken fern root was an important staple for many iwi. Eating this increases the chance of cancer. The fibrous Māori diet meant people tended to wear their teeth out, which over time led to malnutrition, disease and death.’

So tell me again how ‘colonisation’ has lead to appalling outcomes for Maori….

https://teara.govt.nz/en/te-hauora-maori-i-mua-history-of-maori-health/page-1

Arguing that because pre European Maori had life expectancy of 28-30 years, colonisation did not lead to appalling outcomes for Maori is either ignorant and stupid or frankly racist. You may well be both.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Arguing that because pre European Maori had life expectancy of 28-30 years, colonisation did not lead to appalling outcomes for Maori is either ignorant and stupid or frankly racist. You may well be both.

Your post is disgraceful. It is you who are ignorant, as you seem oblivious to the fact that Maori life expectancy has vastly improved. By becoming subjects of the British Crown, Maori also saw an end of their cultural practices of slavery, cannibalism, and inter-tribal warfare. The end of these practices demonstrably vastly improved the lives of those maori who stood to be eaten or enslaved if colonisation had not occurred.

I find you posts to be deeply racist in that they do not acknowledge uncomfortable warts-and-all truths, but instead seek to perpetuate *racist* noble savage tropes while seeking to demonise people who did not come to this country with evil intent, but rather came to build a new country through hard-work and mainly peaceful cooperation with the stone-age civilisation that they found here.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Hopefully the Leftists ‘cultural practice’ of personally abusing others in deeply offensive terms will end over time. History does not support their propositions, so instead they scream ‘racist’ and seek to rewrite or erase those parts of history that they cannot deal with. This must stop as well.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Arguing that because pre European Maori had life expectancy of 28-30 years, colonisation did not lead to appalling outcomes for Maori is either ignorant and stupid or frankly racist. You may well be both.

Any crocodile tears shed by you over below invasion and conquest davflaws?

https://teara.govt.nz/en/chatham-islands

‘The people who became the Moriori arrived on the (Chatham) islands from Eastern Polynesia and New Zealand around 1400 CE. They had no contact with other people for 400 years, and developed their own distinct culture. They were hunter-gatherers with strong religious beliefs, and outlawed war and killing.

In 1791 an English ship, the Chatham, was blown off course and found the main island. Later European sealers, settlers and whalers arrived.

In 1835 two Māori groups, Ngāti Tama and Ngāti Mutunga, invaded the Chatham Islands. They had left northern Taranaki due to warfare, and were seeking somewhere else to live. Moriori greeted them, but the Māori killed more than 200 Moriori and enslaved the rest.’

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_Islands

On 19 November and 5 December 1835, about 900 Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama previously resident in Te Whanganui-A-Tara (Wellington) and led by the chief Pōmare Ngātata arrived on the brig Lord Rodney. The first mate of the ship had been 'kidnapped and threatened with death' unless the captain took the Māori settlers on board. The group, which included men, women and children, brought with them 78 tonnes of seed potato, 20 pigs and seven large waka.[36]

The incoming Māori were received and initially cared for by the local Moriori. Soon, Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama began to takahi, or walk the land, to lay claim to it. When it became clear that the visitors intended to stay, the Moriori withdrew to their marae at te Awapatiki. There, after holding a hui (consultation) to debate what to do about the Māori settlers, the Moriori decided to keep with their policy of non-aggression.

Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama in turn saw the meeting as a precursor to warfare on the part of Moriori and responded. The Māori attacked and in the ensuing action killed over 260 Moriori. A Moriori survivor recalled: "[The Māori] commenced to kill us like sheep... [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed – men, women and children – indiscriminately".[37]

A Māori chief, Te Rakatau Katihe, said in the Native Land Court in 1870: "We took possession ... in accordance with our custom, and we caught all the people. Not one escaped. Some ran away from us, these we killed; and others also we killed – but what of that? It was in accordance with our custom. I am not aware of any of our people being killed by them."[38][39]

After the killings, Moriori were forbidden to marry Moriori, or to have children with each other. Māori kept Moriori slaves until 1863, when slavery was abolished by proclamation of the resident magistrate.[5] Many Moriori women had children by their Māori masters. A number of Moriori women eventually married either Māori or European men. Some were taken away from the Chathams and never returned. Ernst Dieffenbach, who visited the Chathams on a New Zealand Company ship in 1840, reported that the Moriori were the virtual slaves of Māori and were severely mistreated, with death being a blessing. By the time the slaves were released in 1863, only 160 remained, hardly 10% of the 1835 population.[36]’

[Logen Ninefingers]

https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-PybMaor-t1-body-d5.html

‘It was in the year 1828 that the noted chief Te Rauparaha appeared on the pages of Southern Maoridom. He has been described as a man of small stature, but of a proud and stately bearing; possessing a face deeply tattooed, deep penetrating eyes, and yet a face stamped with the courage of a born leader.

He had taken Kapiti Island in Cook Strait and from there “like an eagle from his eyrie,” looked towards the South Island and laid his plans for further conquests. “He had carried fire and desolation and terminated his butcheries in horrid cannibal feasts, and left behind him a bloody, smoking trail of misery and tragedy.”

From his island pa at Kapiti he made ready his schemes to invade the South Island, and at the same time to possess himself of its coveted greenstone. He accordingly manned his fleet of canoes with Ngati Toa and Ngati Raukawa warriors, armed as far as possible with the musket of the pakeha, and made for D'Urville Island. Primitive weapons were hopeless before the bullets of Te Rauparaha's invading Ngati Toa and the victory was complete. A cannibal feast followed, and the defeated who were spared the oven were sent off to Kapiti.
Delighted with his success, the ‘Maori Napoleon’ next invaded Northern Marlborough and conquered the Rangi Tane. Flushed with victory, the conqueror was keen to subdue the Kai Tahu. Accordingly he allied himself with his savage kinsman, Te Pehi, and in the following year, 1829, landed at Kaikoura.

The chief pa of the Kai Tahu at Kaikoura was named Takahaka and stood under the terrace of the foreshore north of the peninsula, where the town of Kaikoura stretches on either side today. Te Rauparaha's victory was swift and complete, for the invaders were not expected. The chief Rerewaka and the people of Kaikoura were expecting a visit from some of their southern friends, and when they awoke in the morning in question, seeing a fleet of canoes on the beach, they took them for their friends. They were, however, soon undeceived, for the visitors fell upon the unarmed people and made great slaughter. The pa was quickly taken. About one thousand of the Kai Tahu were killed and many more captured. The chief Rerewaka was one of the captives. The pa was plundered, the Ngati Toa feasted upon the dead, and the remaining captives were taken to Kapiti. Rerewaka was tortured and put to death.’

[Balance]

Arguing that because pre European Maori had life expectancy of 28-30 years, colonisation did not lead to appalling outcomes for Maori is either ignorant and stupid or frankly racist. You may well be both.

Posting by the racist davflaws who asserts that a NZer is without culture or heritage unless they are Maori or adopt Maori culture.

Why should anyone adopt a culture which is in their opinion, inferior, primitive and violent?

Why should anyone adopt and use a language which has hardly progressed from the Stone Age in their opinion? Try teaching maths and science with te reo Maori.

Why is it so difficult for racists & do gooders/ socialist failures like davflaws to accept reality that there are superior and inferior cultures and languages out there?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Posting by the racist davflaws who asserts that a NZer is without culture or heritage unless they are Maori or adopt Maori culture.

Why should anyone adopt a culture which is in their opinion, inferior, primitive and violent?

Why should anyone adopt and use a language which has hardly progressed from the Stone Age in their opinion? Try teaching maths and science with te Maori.

Why is it so difficult for racists like davflaws to accept reality that there are superior and inferior cultures and languages out there?

Why are maori not pushing to adopt their traditional cultural practices that were deemed to be ‘dreadful’ only by the alien ‘colonists’ who apparently stripped them of their culture?

Surely slavery, cannibalism, torture, inter-tribal warfare, and the taking of land by conquest, were all seen as a completely normal part of maori culture in the relatively recent past, and can therefore only be viewed as abhorrent or ‘wrong’ through an alien ‘post-colonial’ lens? If todays maori view these vital practices as ‘wrong’, surely they are continuing to think with warped ‘post-colonial’ minds that must be further ‘de-colonised’?

I see web advertisements inviting maori students to take appropriate courses at learning institutions that will ‘decolonise their thinking’. The supreme irony being that the degrees, diplomas, and courses being undertaken as per colonialist roadmaps and conventions on higher learning, in institutions modelled on colonialist frameworks. It’s a farce from the get-go, an absurdity. ‘Let’s get rid of colonialism by embracing colonialism’.

Surely the meaning of a haka is as per the conqueror, cannibal, torturer, and slave taker Te Rauparaha intended: as a challenge and rebuke to enemies in a time of war. Take it out of that context and it simply becomes a piece of kitsch; it’s ersatz, it loses all meaning and vitality.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Posting by the racist davflaws who asserts that a NZer is without culture or heritage unless they are Maori or adopt Maori culture.

Why should anyone adopt a culture which is in their opinion, inferior, primitive and violent?

Why should anyone adopt and use a language which has hardly progressed from the Stone Age in their opinion? Try teaching maths and science with te reo Maori.

Why is it so difficult for racists & do gooders/ socialist failures like davflaws to accept reality that there are superior and inferior cultures and languages out there?

Maori is actually a living language, in that new words are being created all the time. Words like ipurangi (internet), motoka waka (motor car), waka motoka (motor boat). Science is ‘pūtaiao’ in maori. (It’s a living language that doesn’t allow words from other languages). And if you don’t think there are plans afoot to incorporate maori in the teaching of subjects like science, then you haven’t reviewed the proposed new curriculum.

English is also a living language. A living language that is expected to assimilate words from the maori language; words like mana, whanau, mahi, kai etc.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Posting by the racist davflaws who asserts that a NZer is without culture or heritage unless they are Maori or adopt Maori culture.

Why should anyone adopt a culture which is in their opinion, inferior, primitive and violent?

Why should anyone adopt and use a language which has hardly progressed from the Stone Age in their opinion? Try teaching maths and science with te reo Maori.

Why is it so difficult for racists & do gooders/ socialist failures like davflaws to accept reality that there are superior and inferior cultures and languages out there?

Here’s a science teaching resource on how decolonisation will take place. Even our cities are to be ‘decolonised’ -

https://unesco.org.nz/assets/general/imagining-decolonised-cities.pdf

[moka]

The polls seem pretty clear. We can expect to be governed by an ACT/Nat coalition containing a large proportion of people like Balance. I can only hope that their apparent hatred and contempt of those less able and fortunate than themselves is tempered by pragmatism.

Their veins certainly don't overflow with the milk of human kindness, and if ACT have a big influence, I fear we are heading for a harsher more punitive ideologically driven regime which will increase inequality and ultimately make us all worse off.Davflaws thank you for spelling it out so clearly in your post what we can expect under an ACT/Nat coalition. I think your comment about apparent hatred and contempt of those less able and fortunate than themselves is so true and it certainly generated more vitriol on this thread as they do not like to have to have their behaviour criticised. They are so quick to deflect the discussion away from themselves and respond with to personal attacks on posters and just ramp up their criticism of the Left or Maori etc. You are criticising their behaviour which is not okay, and they attack the person.

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘Re-indigenisation is similar to decolonisation. Some of the practical methods of decolonising will mean re-indigenising. Still, there’s an important shift in mindset that comes with re-indigenisation because it no longer centres coloniser cultures or assumptions. Instead, it focuses on how Indigenous people want to be represented and reflected.’

“In Aotearoa New Zealand, practical decolonisation, underpinned by te Tiriti o Waitangi, could be used not only to redress past wrongs but to build a more just, equitable, and inclusive society.”
- Jade Kake

“[Decolonising] requires a shift not just in what actions are taken, but also in how people think. This process can have positive results for not only the indigenous people, but for the entire community.”
- Victoria University of Wellington with Rebecca Kiddle

“Decolonizing the way we think about design and architecture and the processes by which we create the built environment begins with taking humans off the top if the pyramid and placing them as an equal part of a circle”
- Matthew Hickey

https://talkwellington.org.nz/2022/what-does-decolonisation-look-like-in-our-towns/

https://talkwellington.org.nz/2022/re-indigenising-decolonising-design/

[moka]

Nobody does hatred and contempt like the Left. I disagree with your comment that nobody does hatred and contempt like the Left unless you are identifying yourself as Left.
Most the hatred on Sharetrader comes from those with a Right perspective, and I’ve read plenty of similar comments on the Herald from readers who are National supporters. But I haven’t come across a similar sustained barrage of abuse from the Left. There are occasional comments that are over the top. I would be interested to read those comments expressing hatred and contempt by the Left if you have a source.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Davflaws thank you for spelling it out so clearly in your post what we can expect under an ACT/Nat coalition. I think your comment about apparent hatred and contempt of those less able and fortunate than themselves is so true and it certainly generated more vitriol on this thread as they do not like to have to have their behaviour criticised. They are so quick to deflect the discussion away from themselves and respond with to personal attacks on posters and just ramp up their criticism of the Left or Maori etc. You are criticising their behaviour which is not okay, and they attack the person.

It would be interesting to find out just what exactly you are objecting to. All I can see are pitiful attempts to silence debate & shut down the sharing of factual information from both the historic and contemporary record.

We were told Labour was to be ‘the most open and transparent government ever’.
How history will judge this government will be that it - and its close supporters and confidants - attempted to advance a quite revolutionary agenda by stealth.
The more the agenda is brought out into the light where it can be examined, the more it will perturb and alarm a great many New Zealanders.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I disagree with your comment that nobody does hatred and contempt like the Left unless you are identifying yourself as Left.
Most the hatred on Sharetrader comes from those with a Right perspective, and I’ve read plenty of similar comments on the Herald from readers who are National supporters. But I haven’t come across a similar sustained barrage of abuse from the Left. There are occasional comments that are over the top. I would be interested to read those comments expressing hatred and contempt by the Left if you have a source.

Well you picked out one sentence from my post in isolation. Present it with the rest of my post, and the meaning can be comprehended. My post intimates that the entire philosophy of the Left is grounded in hatred and contempt. I wrote:

‘Leftism is all about grouping people according to various tropes & then spending your whole life wracked with envy and thirsting for violent revolution, howling about how things aren’t ‘fair’, and calling other people ‘selfish’ at every opportunity. The irony is that many of the people who spend their lives decrying capitalism actually do extremely well out of parasitically tapping into the financial benefits & higher living standards that a capitalistic society enjoys. You’ll note that not many of them are in a hurry to move to socialist utopias like Venezuela and North Korea….better to sit here in some ivory tower or public service role, absolutely milking it while lashing out at ‘selfishness’ and ‘neoliberalism’.’

[Getty]

Such as, being made a knight?

Ah, now Sir Winston, that has a ring about it.

How much of Winnies success has been due to his name?

Fred, Sam or John Peters just isn't the same is it?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Ah, now Sir Winston, that has a ring about it.

How much of Winnies success has been due to his name?

Fred, Sam or John Peters just isn't the same is it?

Wini Petere?

[Getty]

Peters weenie.

Some wish it would peter out.

[moka]

Well you picked out one sentence from my post in isolation. Present it with the rest of my post, and the meaning can be comprehended. My post intimates that the entire philosophy of the Left is grounded in hatred and contempt. I wrote:

‘Leftism is all about grouping people according to various tropes & then spending your whole life wracked with envy and thirsting for violent revolution, howling about how things aren’t ‘fair’, and calling other people ‘selfish’ at every opportunity. The irony is that many of the people who spend their lives decrying capitalism actually do extremely well out of parasitically tapping into the financial benefits & higher living standards that a capitalistic society enjoys. You’ll note that not many of them are in a hurry to move to socialist utopias like Venezuela and North Korea….better to sit here in some ivory tower or public service role, absolutely milking it while lashing out at ‘selfishness’ and ‘neoliberalism’.’I was getting to the rest of your post.

I did read the rest of your post earlier and I didn’t comprehend it then it expressing hatred and contempt and that is why I asked for sources, and after rereading it I still don’t.

I can understand that you feel “attacked” by some of the comments by the Left but that doesn’t mean they are expressing hatred and contempt. They have a different view to you. You are exaggerating by saying their whole life is wracked with envy and thirsting for revolution and howling about how things aren’t fair. You are attacking the people and not addressing the issues about fairness etc.

I struggle to see how the entire philosophy of the Left is grounded in hatred and contempt when it is actually about making the world a better and fairer place. In general, the left-wing philosophy emphasizes ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform, and internationalism, while the right-wing philosophy emphasizes notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction, and nationalism.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I was getting to the rest of your post.

I did read the rest of your post earlier and I didn’t comprehend it then it expressing hatred and contempt and that is why I asked for sources, and after rereading it I still don’t.

I can understand that you feel “attacked” by some of the comments by the Left but that doesn’t mean they are expressing hatred and contempt. They have a different view to you. You are exaggerating by saying their whole life is wracked with envy and thirsting for revolution and howling about how things aren’t fair. You are attacking the people and not addressing the issues about fairness etc.

I struggle to see how the entire philosophy of the Left is grounded in hatred and contempt when it is actually about making the world a better and fairer place. In general, the left-wing philosophy emphasizes ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform, and internationalism, while the right-wing philosophy emphasizes notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction, and nationalism.

The organiser of the Greenpeace banner roll-out at Parliament writes blog posts which include a picture of Karl Marx with the wording ‘I’d rather have a revolution than a Labour government’. That is implicit violence right there.

I have no idea how many left wingers are latent revolutionaries but I do know they are on a moral crusade, convinced that the world is ‘unfair’ and must be made ‘fair’.
Fairness - or Social Justice - cannot even be defined. One persons fair is another persons unfair. It is all entirely subjective. The problem is that Leftists have their (vague) notion of what is fair and their burning desire to change the ‘unfair’ to ‘fair’, hence the shrieks of ‘selfish’ or ‘racist’ aimed at anyone who pushes back against what is really a slow-motion revolution that can never end.
Take social welfare for instance: raise all benefits by $100 per week and still someone is ‘poor’ relative to someone else. The quest for ‘fair’ is illusory, but can never end.

——

‘ Freedom’…to pursue happiness in your own way and not as part of a collective?

‘ Rights’…to own property, a business?

‘Progress’….to what? And how?

‘Reform’…..of what? To get to where?

——

‘Authority’….really? How come the most authoritarian governments the world have ever seen have been in the USSR and China?

‘Order’….you prefer Anarchy? Revolution?

————

Again: Fairness - or Social Justice - cannot even be defined. One persons fair is another persons unfair. It is all entirely subjective.


Michael Novak argues that social justice has seldom been adequately defined, arguing:

‘[W]hole books and treatises have been written about social justice without ever defining it. It is allowed to float in the air as if everyone will recognize an instance of it when it appears. This vagueness seems indispensable. The minute one begins to define social justice, one runs into embarrassing intellectual difficulties. It becomes, most often, a term of art whose operational meaning is, "We need a law against that." In other words, it becomes an instrument of ideological intimidation, for the purpose of gaining the power of legal coercion.’[93]

Friedrich Hayek of the Austrian School of economics rejected the very idea of social justice as meaningless, self-contradictory, and ideological, believing that to realize any degree of social justice is unfeasible, and that the attempt to do so must destroy all liberty:

‘There can be no test by which we can discover what is 'socially unjust' because there is no subject by which such an injustice can be committed, and there are no rules of individual conduct the observance of which in the market order would secure to the individuals and groups the position which as such (as distinguished from the procedure by which it is determined) would appear just to us. [Social justice] does not belong to the category of error but to that of nonsense, like the term 'a moral stone'.[94]

Hayek argued that proponents of social justice often present it as a moral virtue but most of their descriptions pertain to impersonal states of affairs (e.g. income inequality, poverty), which are cited as "social injustice." Hayek argued that social justice is either a virtue or it is not. If it is, it can only be ascribed to the actions of individuals. However, most who use the term ascribe it to social systems, so "social justice" in fact describes a regulative principle of order; they are interested not in virtue but power.[93] For Hayek, this notion of social justices presupposes that people are guided by specific external directions rather than internal, personal rules of just conduct. It further presupposes that one can never be held accountable for ones own behaviour, as this would be "blaming the victim." According to Hayek, the function of social justice is to blame someone else, often attributed to "the system" or those who are supposed, mythically, to control it. Thus it is based on the appealing idea of "you suffer; your suffering is caused by powerful others; these oppressors must be destroyed."[93]

Ben O'Neill of the University of New South Wales and the Mises Institute argues:

‘[For advocates of "social justice"] the notion of "rights" is a mere term of entitlement, indicative of a claim for any possible desirable good, no matter how important or trivial, abstract or tangible, recent or ancient. It is merely an assertion of desire, and a declaration of intention to use the language of rights to acquire said desire. In fact, since the program of social justice inevitably involves claims for government provision of goods, paid for through the efforts of others, the term actually refers to an intention to use force to acquire one's desires. Not to earn desirable goods by rational thought and action, production and voluntary exchange, but to go in there and forcibly take goods from those who can supply them!’[95]

Psychologist Steven Pinker argues that social justice "sees society as a struggle for power, also zero-sum, among different sexes, sexual orientations, and races [and] also has a contempt for science".[96]

[moka]

It would be interesting to find out just what exactly you are objecting to. All I can see are pitiful attempts to silence debate & shut down the sharing of factual information from both the historic and contemporary record.

We were told Labour was to be ‘the most open and transparent government ever’.
How history will judge this government will be that it - and its close supporters and confidants - attempted to advance a quite revolutionary agenda by stealth.
The more the agenda is brought out into the light where it can be examined, the more it will perturb and alarm a great many New Zealanders.I would like to silence the tiresome repetitive comments such as “Labour was to be the most open and transparent government.” I don’t see that as debate. The comments are boring and childish. We know how you feel, you have told us countless times. Too many times.

But I don’t want to silence debate, which is having a reasoned discussion, and being open to seeing other perspectives. I would like to raise the standard of the discussion. You can share factual information and so can others who have a different view. I see debate as a discussion, not as an argument, a dispute or a contest to win.

I am objecting to tiresome repetitive comments, shallow discussion, lots of personal attacks, name calling, exaggerating and demonizing the other side to show how bad they are.

[Getty]

I would like to silence the tiresome repetitive comments such as “Labour was to be the most open and transparent government.” I don’t see that as debate. The comments are boring and childish. We know how you feel, you have told us countless times. Too many times.

But I don’t want to silence debate, which is having a reasoned discussion, and being open to seeing other perspectives. I would like to raise the standard of the discussion. You can share factual information and so can others who have a different view. I see debate as a discussion, not as an argument, a dispute or a contest to win.

I am objecting to tiresome repetitive comments, shallow discussion, lots of personal attacks, name calling, exaggerating and demonizing the other side to show how bad they are.

Moka, your comments and objections are probably reflective of many readers.

However, many others, and active posters have actually been traumatised and distressed by what 6 years of Labour government has done to NZ.

For them, to post and read what like minded posters say, is a cathartic exercise, that will lead to their healing.

I trust that perspective will help.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I would like to silence the tiresome repetitive comments such as “Labour was to be the most open and transparent government.” I don’t see that as debate. The comments are boring and childish. We know how you feel, you have told us countless times. Too many times.

But I don’t want to silence debate, which is having a reasoned discussion, and being open to seeing other perspectives. I would like to raise the standard of the discussion. You can share factual information and so can others who have a different view. I see debate as a discussion, not as an argument, a dispute or a contest to win.

I am objecting to tiresome repetitive comments, shallow discussion, lots of personal attacks, name calling, exaggerating and demonizing the other side to show how bad they are.

‘Demonising the other side to show how bad they are’.

This is all the Left ever do though. Disagree with them about the need to make everything ‘fair’ (i.e. ‘socially just’) and then will call you ‘selfish’. If you attempt to roll back any aspect of their ‘progress’ (revolution by stealth) and they will shriek ‘reactionary’. It is a rigged game because it is the Left who define what is ‘fair’ and what constitutes ‘progress’. Nobody else gets a say, even when you point out that ‘social justice’ is anything from poorly defined to illusory nonsense.

Leftism usually exists for any one person right up to the point where living standards begin to fall as a result of Leftist governments attempts to make everything ‘fair’ (which is akin to pursuing a mirage.) Many doctors and nurses leaving for Australia would have voted for Labour and ‘fairness’ at the last election. And why are they going now? Higher pay and higher living standards in a country that exploits its natural resources and is less intent on pursuing ideological clap-trap down a rabbit hole.

[Panda-NZ-]

Leftism usually exists for any one person right up to the point where living standards begin to fall as a result of Leftist governments attempts to make everything ‘fair’ (which is akin to pursuing a mirage.) Many doctors and nurses leaving for Australia would have voted for Labour and ‘fairness’ at the last election. And why are they going now? Higher pay and higher living standards in a country that exploits its natural resources and is less intent on pursuing ideological clap-trap down a rabbit hole.

Ok then let's have state owned or highly taxed mining company dig up resources where the environment can still be protected.
Hmmm will ideological clap trap somehow get in the way?

Or is it better to have a tax dodging singaporean enterprse do it instead

[moka]

Moka, your comments and objections are probably reflective of many readers.

However, many others, and active posters have actually been traumatised and distressed by what 6 years of Labour government has done to NZ.

For them, to post and read what like minded posters say, is a cathartic exercise, that will lead to their healing.

I trust that perspective will help.Thanks for your comment, Getty. I agree that releasing pent up emotions by cathartic exercise is a great idea. This can be done through physical exercise, progressive muscle relaxation, making noise, acting out on inanimate objects, and journaling.

Catharsis is a powerful emotional release that, when successful, is accompanied by cognitive insight and positive change.
The term catharsis is often used to describe the experience of looking for closure, and it can also be used to describe an emotional moment that brings forth a positive change in a person’s life.

People may even feel as if they are going to "explode" unless they find a way to release this pent-up emotion.
Rather than venting these feelings inappropriately, the individual may instead release these feelings in another way, such as through physical activity or another stress-relieving activity.

However, although catharsis might relieve tension in the short term, on these threads I see it as serving to reinforce negative behaviours and increase the risk of emotional outbursts in the future. It seems to be encouraging people to vent, and giving them permission to vent and the intensity is increasing. It does not seem to be leading to insight and positive change.

You say for them to post and read what like minded posters say is a cathartic exercise. It seems to me to be bonding over a common enemy which is not a healthy behaviour.

[moka]

Moka, your comments and objections are probably reflective of many readers.

However, many others, and active posters have actually been traumatised and distressed by what 6 years of Labour government has done to NZ.

For them, to post and read what like minded posters say, is a cathartic exercise, that will lead to their healing.

I trust that perspective will help.Van K Tharp in his book Super Trader has a chapter on Removing Stored Charges. He says charges (stored feelings) will cause you to keep limiting beliefs because the charges give a belief energy. One method he recommends for releasing the feelings is the Sedona Method. The Sedona Method is available as a book by Hale Dwoskin and there are many videos on YouTube. I use and recommend the Sedona Method.

Tharp also suggests just welcoming the feeling, opening your arms and just welcoming the feeling when it comes up. Feelings are meant to pass through you, not be stored inside you. He personally has found this exercise to be quite helpful.

https://www.sedona.com/What-Is-The-Sedona-Method

The Sedona Method is a unique, simple, powerful, easy-to-learn and repeat technique that shows you how to uncover your natural ability to let go of any painful or unwanted feeling in the moment. The Sedona Method consists of a series of questions you ask yourself that lead your awareness to what you are feeling in the moment and gently guide you into the experience of letting go. Watch this short, 4-minute video.

[davflaws]

Your post is disgraceful. It is you who are ignorant, as you seem oblivious to the fact that Maori life expectancy has vastly improved.

Ya what? You do some reading (I am delighted - do some more) and come up with some precontact life expectancy estimates - which incidentally are arguably better than pertained for common people in Europe at the time of first contact -and use the fact that Maori figures have improved as an argument to deny the deleterious efffects of colonisation on Maori Health in the context of a discussion about the gross and disgraceful current disparities between Maori and non Maori life expectancies. You consistently conflate European contact with colonisation. That is what is stupid, ignorant, and racist.

Of course Maori statistics have improved. I doubt there is anywhere in the world where statistics haven't improved in the last two hundred and fifty years. But the fact that Western technology and forms of political organisation has generally improved people's lives is not the same thing as colonisation and it is ignorant, stupid and racist to deny the disastrous effects of indigenous people's loss of land, cultural, political and social hegemony that characterises colonisation as distinct from contact and adoption of technologies and practices on more equal terms.

It is possible to have the advantages of contact and the technologicaland social change that goes with it without the bad effects of colonisation, and in the context of a discussion about the current disparities in Maori health, it is misleading to conflate the two.

You cite some atrocious behavior. I could cite many further instances and incidents. You can deplore them, and I join you in that judgment, but they are not relevant to the issue of the effects of our history colonisation on current Maori health.


By becoming subjects of the British Crown, Maori also saw an end of their cultural practices of slavery, cannibalism, and inter-tribal warfare. The end of these practices demonstrably vastly improved the lives of those maori who stood to be eaten or enslaved if colonisation had not occurred.

Cannibalism, tribal warfare, and slavery were all on the wane by the time TOW was signed, and effectively eliminated before the wave of colonisation that swamped disenfranchised, and disposessed Maori from the 1850s to late in the century. Again, cultural and social practices change over time, faster with the adoption of new technology, but the equation you are claiming between those changes and colonisation advances a false argument in the service of racist position.


I find you posts to be deeply racist in that they do not acknowledge uncomfortable warts-and-all truths, but instead seek to perpetuate *racist* noble savage tropes while seeking to demonise people who did not come to this country with evil intent, but rather came to build a new country through hard-work and mainly peaceful cooperation with the stone-age civilisation that they found here.

You have confused my posts with someone elses. I have never claimed that European contact was bad, or that Maori were noble savages. Life in all pre industrial societies tended to be ugly, brutal and short. Read Pinker's "The Better Angels of our Nature", Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel", Belich's "New Zealand Wars", "Making Peoples" and "Replenishing the Earth", or dig further in the Te Ara site.

I do not demonise the settlers. My forbears on both sides came here in the 1860s as part of the wave that swamped Maori. Some of them were good people, but at least one was a very successful fraud and cheat. Some of them worked hard, but at least one was a "remittance man" sent to the "colonies" to avoid a scandal.

They did not find a "stone age civilisation" here. They came to a place where social, political, and economic conditions were changing rapidly, and some western technologies and social practices were being eagerly adopted. And they effectively disposessed and subjugated the indigenous people. They were not individually evil, wicked, mean or nasty, but the disposession had and has ongoing effects. The fact that you deny this, along with your "stone age" characterisation, is what is ignorant, stupid and racist.

[davflaws]

Thanks for your comment, Getty. I agree that releasing pent up emotions by cathartic exercise is a great idea. This can be done through physical exercise, progressive muscle relaxation, making noise, acting out on inanimate objects, and journaling.

Catharsis is a powerful emotional release that, when successful, is accompanied by cognitive insight and positive change.
The term catharsis is often used to describe the experience of looking for closure, and it can also be used to describe an emotional moment that brings forth a positive change in a person’s life.



The menz movement accepts rednecks and tree huggers, Covidvax refusers and mandaters, wifebeaters and nonviolent communicators, astrological energy healers and medical research scientists. All of us share common experiences as men irrespective of our personal histories and the belief systems that have developed from them. We don't have to remain isolated.

Catharsis and reintegration is an important part of what we do.

https://www.essentiallymen.net

[Balance]

An example of just how fed up white middle class NZers are with all the woke BS that Hipkins and Ardern with the Maori cabal have been ramping down their throats (without any electoral mandate but via their hidden & secret agenda) :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/497932/raucous-northland-debate-crowd-rails-at-covid-te-reo-maori-mentions

This is the real legacy of Ardern the useless red Queen of Woke … and we can see that Hipkins has been happily following along as long as they both not only enjoyed the office of power but are prepared to sell their souls and NZ down the drain in the pursuit of that power.

That’s what NZ has had in the last 6 years - incompetent career politicians mad for and mad with power.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1691612681811-D9LMARSVE48IZHOKQCOA/Organ+grinders.jpg?format=500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1661889283086-24K1VLVJTIGWPCUQJBR6/Jacinda.jpg?format=500w

[Entrep]

davflaws, how does giving back large patches of farm/forestry land help urban/the majority of Maori?

Doesn't seem to be a real solution?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Ya what? You do some reading (I am delighted - do some more) and come up with some precontact life expectancy estimates - which incidentally are arguably better than pertained for common people in Europe at the time of first contact -and use the fact that Maori figures have improved as an argument to deny the deleterious efffects of colonisation on Maori Health in the context of a discussion about the gross and disgraceful current disparities between Maori and non Maori life expectancies. You consistently conflate European contact with colonisation. That is what is stupid, ignorant, and racist.

Of course Maori statistics have improved. I doubt there is anywhere in the world where statistics haven't improved in the last two hundred and fifty years. But the fact that Western technology and forms of political organisation has generally improved people's lives is not the same thing as colonisation and it is ignorant, stupid and racist to deny the disastrous effects of indigenous people's loss of land, cultural, political and social hegemony that characterises colonisation as distinct from contact and adoption of technologies and practices on more equal terms.

It is possible to have the advantages of contact and the technologicaland social change that goes with it without the bad effects of colonisation, and in the context of a discussion about the current disparities in Maori health, it is misleading to conflate the two.

You cite some atrocious behavior. I could cite many further instances and incidents. You can deplore them, and I join you in that judgment, but they are not relevant to the issue of the effects of our history colonisation on current Maori health.



Cannibalism, tribal warfare, and slavery were all on the wane by the time TOW was signed, and effectively eliminated before the wave of colonisation that swamped disenfranchised, and disposessed Maori from the 1850s to late in the century. Again, cultural and social practices change over time, faster with the adoption of new technology, but the equation you are claiming between those changes and colonisation advances a false argument in the service of racist position.



You have confused my posts with someone elses. I have never claimed that European contact was bad, or that Maori were noble savages. Life in all pre industrial societies tended to be ugly, brutal and short. Read Pinker's "The Better Angels of our Nature", Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel", Belich's "New Zealand Wars", "Making Peoples" and "Replenishing the Earth", or dig further in the Te Ara site.

I do not demonise the settlers. My forbears on both sides came here in the 1860s as part of the wave that swamped Maori. Some of them were good people, but at least one was a very successful fraud and cheat. Some of them worked hard, but at least one was a "remittance man" sent to the "colonies" to avoid a scandal.

They did not find a "stone age civilisation" here. They came to a place where social, political, and economic conditions were changing rapidly, and some western technologies and social practices were being eagerly adopted. And they effectively disposessed and subjugated the indigenous people. They were not individually evil, wicked, mean or nasty, but the disposession had and has ongoing effects. The fact that you deny this, along with your "stone age" characterisation, is what is ignorant, stupid and racist.

Firstly, negative effects of ‘colonisation’ are a given and were not disputed by me. There are positive and negative effects in any area of human affairs that you would care to look at. In this instance, I merely started that pre-contact Maori had a life expectancy of 28 to 30 years old and in modern New Zealand Maori have a life expectancy of mid to late 70’s. You cannot get from here to there without colonisation, because colonisation is an historical fact. Shortly thereafter your dander was up & the ‘racist’ card was - invariably - played.

One of the most obvious positive effects of colonisation for todays mixed-race people (understanding that we are all a hodge podge of ethnic origins) is the very fact that the person doing the incessant bleating would not even exist themselves if not for all sides of their ethnic history converging to bring them into this world. It is demonstrably a fact that you, I, or anybody else would literally not exist as an individual human being if we our ancestors - whoever they may be - did not form conjugal unions that resulted in children.
So we have a half-Irish person dressed in part in 1840’s attire, with accompanying facial tattoo, educated according to modern standards and in a well paid job, railing against the British Crown and continuing to decry ‘colonisation’ - colonisation, occupation, Europeans coming here en masse, call it what you will.

I’ve denied nothing as regards history. Your highly dismissive, abusive, and offensive tone reeks of arrogance. Maori have often been dispossessed of the lands and lives; frequently this was done by other Maori. ‘Subjugation and dispossession’ was done by one Iwi to another. The effects upon those people being subjugated were brutal, often they were enslaved or their lives terminated. Sorry, I’m not going to wave this away. I’m not going to falsify history and state that Maori played by different rules than the British when it came to the struggle for land and resources: might was right. When each tribe effectively functioned as its own nation-state, conquest and enslavement and cannibalism all were part & parcel of Maori history pre-contact and post-contact:

‘In 1830 Captain John Stewart of the brig Elizabeth made an arrangement with Ngāti Toa leader Te Rauparaha to ferry a taua (war party) of 100 warriors from his base on Kāpiti Island to Banks Peninsula. Te Rauparaha wanted to surprise his Ngāi Tahu enemies and avenge the killing and eating of several Ngāti Toa chiefs at Kaiapoi in 1829. Te Pehi Kupe had suffered the ultimate insult when his bones were made into fish-hooks. Te Rauparaha was keen to reassert his mana over his southern rivals.’

With regards to your attack over the use of the term ‘Stone Age’, anthropologists would certainly categorise the civilisation that the first Europeans encountered as ‘Stone Age’; how else could it be described? Iron Age? No. Bronze Age? No. The trouble with people like you is that you see history itself as a ‘dog whistle’ or ‘racist’. Likewise, your constant harping on about ‘colonisation’ seems to read like you’ve undertaken some sort of sanitised course: the entire history of the world is one of people moving to new lands seeking land and resources. Maori got to New Zealand as part of this process, and then the people that got here battled each other for land and resources. Protein was scarce so there is a certain sense and logic in the fact that victims of these wars were eaten.

You say that cultural practices change over time. With this blithe dismissive statement you wave away any connection between what you call colonialism and the abandonment by Maori of those ‘cultural practices’. Cultural practices that can be viewed as ‘wrong’ only by applying different standards than the Maori applied to the inner-workings of their own civilisation.

Obviously Maori are keen to re-adopt unadulterated ‘cultural practices’ that were more common in the 1800’s that the 20th century, but I take it that there will be some that were part of their culture - for centuries - that they will not be readopting.

[ithaka]

International socialists are calling out the racism of the NZ left.

The Labour-Greens government has for its part supported various forms of “co-governance” to benefit the Māori tribal elite. This includes supporting the creation of reserved Māori seats in local councils and on water infrastructure governing bodies, and separate “by Māori, for Māori” healthcare services. Any criticism of this divisive and anti-democratic agenda, and of the Treaty of Waitangi itself, is denounced by Labour and its supporters as “racist.”


The Socialist Equality Group opposes all forms of nationalism and racism. We call on the working class to oppose Māori nationalism, and all forms of racial identity politics, from the left—that is, on the basis of a socialist perspective. Genuine equality can only be achieved by fighting for the unity of working people of every nationality and ethnicity, based on their shared class interests, to overthrow capitalism, end the division of the world into rival nation states, and place society’s wealth in common ownership. This is the only way to put an end to racism, xenophobia and every other toxic prejudice that is whipped up by the ruling class to divide workers and keep itself in power.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/13/kbwu-s13.html

[Logen Ninefingers]

International socialists are calling out the racism of the NZ left.

The Labour-Greens government has for its part supported various forms of “co-governance” to benefit the Māori tribal elite. This includes supporting the creation of reserved Māori seats in local councils and on water infrastructure governing bodies, and separate “by Māori, for Māori” healthcare services. Any criticism of this divisive and anti-democratic agenda, and of the Treaty of Waitangi itself, is denounced by Labour and its supporters as “racist.”


The Socialist Equality Group opposes all forms of nationalism and racism. We call on the working class to oppose Māori nationalism, and all forms of racial identity politics, from the left—that is, on the basis of a socialist perspective. Genuine equality can only be achieved by fighting for the unity of working people of every nationality and ethnicity, based on their shared class interests, to overthrow capitalism, end the division of the world into rival nation states, and place society’s wealth in common ownership. This is the only way to put an end to racism, xenophobia and every other toxic prejudice that is whipped up by the ruling class to divide workers and keep itself in power.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/13/kbwu-s13.html

Interesting isn’t it. Here you get a taste of the dunderheaded Marxist / Socialist world-view: any and all prejudices are ‘whipped up’ by the so-called ‘ruling class’ to divide ‘workers’ (who? Uber drivers, fruit pickers, web designers, customer service staff, the chap who delivers the mail?) It’s like history began & ended for them during the Industrial Revolution.

Various ‘ism’s’ - the fear and loathing of one group toward another - have been with us since the dawn of humanity. They certainly weren’t invented by any ‘ruling class’. The entire philosophy of the Left is built on psuedoscience and a version of history that is farcical in the extreme.

Speaking of revolution, ‘fight and overthrow’ is as ever their cry, and once everything is in ‘common ownership’ and millions have been liquidated or sent to the gulags, all our problems will be solved - apparently. So right back to the USSR or the China of Chairman Mao then, with power in the hands of a dictatorship, mass murder, & appalling living standards.

The Left and the Maori Left wing intelligentsia here is NZ will be very hurt at being decried by Socialists. I’m sure they’d like to say “pssst…we’re on your side. We’re doing by stealth exactly what it is you’re wanting. We’re selling it as ‘decolonisation’ and ‘re-indigenisation’ to promote societal fairness and more equitable outcomes.”

[Panda-NZ-]

Interesting isn’t it. Here you get a taste of the dunderheaded Marxist / Socialist world-view: any and all prejudices are ‘whipped up’ by the so-called ‘ruling class’ to divide ‘workers’ (who? Uber drivers, fruit pickers, web designers, customer service staff, the chap who delivers the mail?) It’s like history began & ended for them during the Industrial Revolution.


It can be done via a wealth fund (singapore govt owns a huge amount).

Profits go to the people rather than tax cuts (singapore's approach) or an elite.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It can be done via a wealth fund (singapore govt owns a huge amount).

Profits go to the people rather than tax cuts (singapore's approach) or an elite.

What a weak answer. Singapare 'overthrew the ruling class' & capitalism and installed a 'dictatorship of the proletariat' did it? Lot's of countries have sovereign wealth funds, with capitalist companies being the driver of that wealth.

[Panda-NZ-]

Who owns and controls the means of production though?

To a large extent, the singapore govt.

Assuming it was a real democracy (it's not), the people would have voted in that govt. Hence one of the main aims of socialism would have been achieved in Singapore.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Who owns and controls the means of production though?

To a large extent, the singapore govt.

Assuming it was a real democracy (it's not), the people would have voted in that govt, hence one of the main aims of socialism would be achieved.

So the wealth fund you are referring to is GIC Private Limited, correct?

[Panda-NZ-]

So the wealth fund you are referring to is GIC Private Limited, correct?

There's a second one;
Temasek Holdings.

It's a shame they waste it all on low taxes.

[Logen Ninefingers]

There's a second one;
Temasek Holdings.

It's a shame they waste it all on low taxes.

Ok, well GIC invest as follows -

'With a network of 10 offices in key financial capitals worldwide, GIC invests internationally in developed market equities, emerging market equities, nominal bonds and cash, inflation-linked bonds, private equity and real estate.'

Can you how that is 'owning the means of production'?

[Panda-NZ-]

Economy of Singapore -

Alongside the business-friendly reputation for global and local privately held companies and public companies, various national state-owned enterprises play a substantial role in Singapore's economy. The sovereign wealth fund Temasek Holdings holds majority stakes in several of the nation's largest bellwether companies, such as Singapore Airlines, Singtel, ST Engineering and Mediacorp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore

[Azz]

Continued government contributions into the NZ Superannuation Fund make no sense when the government holds so much debt. The fund should be wound up, with each person in New Zealand getting an equal contribution into their KiwiSaver account.

[Panda-NZ-]

Continued government contributions into the NZ Superannuation Fund make no sense when the government holds so much debt. The fund should be wound up, with each person in New Zealand getting an equal contribution into their KiwiSaver account.

Wait until you see the debt coming from an unfunded aging population.

You ain't seen nothing yet ;)

[Azz]

Wait until you see the debt coming from an unfunded aging population.

You ain't seen nothing yet ;)

Continued government contributions into the NZ Superannuation Fund make no sense when the government holds so much debt.

It's a debt-funded "savings account"!

[Panda-NZ-]

Continued government contributions into the NZ Superannuation Fund make no sense when the government holds so much debt.

Yes, it does make sense.

[Azz]

Yes, it does make sense.

Is this how you run your finances? You have a massive debt you never pay off but you "save" money into a fund?

[Logen Ninefingers]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore

various national state-owned enterprises play a substantial role in Singapore's economy. The sovereign wealth fund Temasek Holdings holds majority stakes in several of the nation's largest bellwether companies, such as Singapore Airlines, Singtel, ST Engineering and Mediacorp.

Wow! So in that country there is ownership of assets by a state entity? 'Majority stakes' you say?

Like these (for a local example)?

State Owned Enterprises:
Airways Corporation of New Zealand Limited
Animal Control Products Limited
AsureQuality Limited
Electricity Corporation of New Zealand Limited (Residual)
KiwiRail Holdings Limited
Kordia Group Limited
Landcorp Farming Limited
Meteorological Service of New Zealand Limited
New Zealand Post Limited
New Zealand Railways Corporation
Quotable Value Limited
Transpower New Zealand Limited

PFA schedule organisations:
Crown Asset Management Limited (Schedule 4A)1
Crown Infrastructure Partners Limited (Schedule 4A)
Genesis Energy Limited (Schedule 5)
Mercury New Zealand Limited (Schedule 5)
Meridian Energy Limited (Schedule 5)

Other organisations:
Christchurch International Airport Limited
Dunedin International Airport Limited
Hawke's Bay Airport Limited

[Panda-NZ-]

Is this how you run your finances? You have a massive debt you never pay off but you "save" money into a fund?

I can raise taxes or print some money.

Conservatives are against both of those funding sources, and then get wound up about "debt". It's unnecessary.

The debt will come later from unfunded healthcare and super don't worry.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Is this how you run your finances? You have a massive debt you never pay off but you "save" money into a fund?

It makes sense to someone from the Left. It's like Robertson borrowing and then saying 'this is my COVID fund' and then talking about making 'savings'. There is no 'fund' and there are no savings, it's all borrowed money. And we will be paying over $9 billion in interest on it every year from 2027 onwards.

[Azz]

I can raise taxes or print some money.

Conservatives are against both of those funding sources, then get wound up about "debt". It's unnecessary.

The debt will come later from unfunded healthcare and super don't worry.

I can see why you love Labour: you're financially illiterate.

[Balance]

Is this how you run your finances? You have a massive debt you never pay off but you "save" money into a fund?

Yes, same panda-nz who wanted Ryman to load up with more debt to do a share buyback when it was already close to defaulting on its existing debt burden.

Ignoramus Labour bred peasant.

Same sort of bankrupt thinking as Ardern, Hipkins and Robertson.

[Panda-NZ-]

I can see why you love Labour: you're financially illiterate.

You would like NZ's debt to be 100% to gdp in 2050;

Whereas I want it to be considerably less & for NZ to increase its net wealth via modest super fund contributions.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I can raise taxes or print some money.

Conservatives are against both of those funding sources, and then get wound up about "debt". It's unnecessary.

The debt will come later from unfunded healthcare and super don't worry.

‘Print some money’….Print some inflation more like it. While debasing the currency and destroying its purchasing power.

‘I can raise taxes’….can you? In a democracy? Maybe in the totalitarian state you crave, but mostly people don’t vote to increase taxes - particularly not in periods of high inflation. The MMT numpties advocate raising taxes to deal with high inflation - only a dictator could get away with that.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You would like NZ's debt to be 100% to gdp in 2050;

Whereas I want it to be considerably less & for NZ to increase its net wealth via modest super fund contributions.

We are going backwards on that score. The Cullen Fund cannot grow at the same pace as Robbo’s debt is growing. Net wealth is declining for that reason. Plus you have to add in the money being paid in interest to service the debt. Hopefully you are not an economist or financial advisor.

[Panda-NZ-]

Inflation erodes debt doesn't it (hence printing money has a double bonus).

A Sword of damacles vs our "debt burden" which isn't that high internationally, currently.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Inflation erodes debt doesn't it (hence printing money has a double bonus).

A Sword of damacles vs our "debt burden" which isn't that high internationally.. currently.

Yeah good one. You’re advocating for high inflation now. Are you really Grant Robertson? Or Chris Hipkins? You seem to have the exact same mindset. We are looking at a series of enormous deficits in the coming years & all you can bray on about is “low debt”. That was a situation bequeathed to this rotten lot by all previous governments, it’s not for these fools to take that legacy and just put the pedal to the metal on borrowing to finance their socialistic daydreams.

[Panda-NZ-]

Yeah good one. You’re advocating for high inflation now. Are you really Grant Robertson? Or Chris Hipkins? You seem to have the exact same mindset. We are looking at a series of enormous deficits in the coming years & all you can bray on about is “low debt”. That was a situation bequeathed to this rotten lot by all previous governments, it’s not for these fools to take that legacy and just put the pedal to the metal on borrowing to finance their socialistic daydreams.

They were given an AA+ credit rating..

NZ surplus 2019: $10b.

There are legitimate things to complain about (non-delivery of promises) but let's try to stick to the facts; the budget or economy isn't one for now.

[Logen Ninefingers]

They were given an AA+ credit rating..
NZ surplus 2019: $10b.

There are legitimate things to complain about (non-delivery of promises) but the budget or economy isn't one.

The budget and economy and $940 million of borrowing every week are all things that can legitimately be complained about.

[Panda-NZ-]

The budget and economy and $940 million of borrowing every week are all things that can legitimately be complained about.

Voters are complaining about the cost of living and lack of delivery (particuarly the all important swing voters). Not this.

I'd like to see your source for the $1b per wk.
Sounds like immediate credit rating downgrade terrority.

[Logen Ninefingers]

They were given an AA+ credit rating..

NZ surplus 2019: $10b.

There are legitimate things to complain about (non-delivery of promises) but let's try to stick to the facts; the budget or economy isn't one.

Robertson is an absolute fool and Labour are a pack of idiotic clowns. Braying about ‘9 years of neglect’ and raving about a housing crisis, and they’ve come in and spent untold billions only to achieve worse outcomes & now have New Zealand committed to spending massively above our means. They haven’t created some great new society, they’ve created a nightmare.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Voters are complaining about cost of living and lack of delivery (particuarly the all important swing voters). Not this.

I'd like to see your source for the $1b borrowings per wk.
Sounds like an immediate credit downgrade in that case.

$940 million per week.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/how-much-nz-needs-to-borrow-next-year-crunching-the-numbers-for-2024/7ZE27JSOPZABRF2DSRDUFHDI44/

[Azz]

Inflation erodes debt doesn't it (hence printing money has a double bonus).

You suffer from extreme intellect deficit. Inflation doesn't stop "eroding" at debt; it erodes everything, the entire nation - and it impacts the poor the most. You really are the ultimate example for what exists as the Labour party today.

[Panda-NZ-]

All benefits go up by CPI & so does the minimum wage.

[Logen Ninefingers]

All benefits go up by CPI & so does the minimum wage.

So how is that a good thing for our country?

[Azz]

All benefits go up by CPI & so does the minimum wage.

You have no clue how the real world works.

[Panda-NZ-]

So how is that a good thing for our country?

Higher tax revenue -> Pays back debt.


You have no clue how the real world works.

In the real world benefits and superannuation are increased by CPI.

So your claim that "the poor suffer most" is absolute cr*p and you should apologise for making a false claim here.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Higher tax revenue -> Pays back debt.



In the real world benefits and superannuation are increased by CPI.

So your claim that "the poor suffer most" is absolute cr*p and you should apologise for making a false claim.

Facepalm. Only a Lefty could come up with junk economics like that.

Robertson is paying back debt? Lol.

[Azz]

Higher tax revenue -> Pays back debt.



In the real world benefits and superannuation are increased by CPI.

So your claim that "the poor suffer most" is absolute cr*p and you should apologise for making a false claim.

The poor (and that includes the working poor which also includes workers earning more than minimum wage) have to buy food - what does inflation do to the price of food? What happens to the meagre savings of those in the lower income brackets, when inflation attacks those savings?

Money is destroyed by inflation. Who has less of it? The rich? Or the poor?

[Panda-NZ-]

Facepalm. Only a Lefty could come up with junk economics like that.

Robertson is paying back debt? Lol.

No he's increasing it like National would be too currently.

If they were in charge of the pandemic response we'd be in a worse place currently.

[Logen Ninefingers]

No he's increasing it like National would be too currently.


If they were in charge of the pandemic response we'd be in a worse place currently.

Phantom cycle bridges, phantom light rail, a phantom merger between RNZ and TVNZ, a nonsensical polytech mega-merger costing $500 million, billions spent on consultants and ‘working groups’…..what does any of that have to do with the pandemic?
Bill English would (should) have been the PM during the pandemic and it’s an unknown how he would have handled it.

[Azz]

No he's increasing it like National would be too currently.

If they were in charge of the pandemic response we'd be in a worse place currently.

The pandemic response by Labour (ie, the moronic "Zero Covid") was the same as the Communist Party's response in China which nearly resulted in their dictator Xi being removed by the population via massive unrest. Lucky for us, Ardern resigned. Lucky for us, we have an election coming up.

[Azz]

Continued government contributions into the NZ Superannuation Fund make no sense when the government holds so much debt. The fund should be wound up, with each person in New Zealand getting an equal contribution into their KiwiSaver account.

Act, are you listening? Wind up the NZ Superannuation Fund, shut it down... and divide up what's in there equally and give back to New Zealanders by way of a one-off KiwiSaver contribution to each person.

[Balance]

Act, are you listening? Wind up the NZ Superannuation Fund, shut it down... and divide up what's in there equally and give back to New Zealanders by way of a one-off KiwiSaver contribution to each person.

Just pay off the debt.

[Azz]

Just pay off the debt.

Does any party support winding up the Fund, not just halting contributions into it, but selling it down in its entirety to pay off debt?

[Panda-NZ-]

Act, are you listening? Wind up the NZ Superannuation Fund, shut it down... and divide up what's in there equally and give back to New Zealanders by way of a one-off KiwiSaver contribution to each person.

Plenty there for Act to privatise first though (power companies, NZ post, kiwibank).

To be bought up by american banks and chinese state companies.

[Azz]

Plenty left for Act to privatise first (power companies, NZ post, kiwibank).

To be bought up by american banks and chinese state companies.

KiwiSaver was brought in by Labour.

And anyway, how is this "Super Fund" going to actually fund super? How's it going to work exactly? At a certain point the money in there has to be given to individuals, y'know for their super, their pensions.

[Panda-NZ-]

KiwiSaver was brought in by Labour.

And anyway, how is this "Super Fund" going to actually fund super? How's it going to work exactly?


Income tax on the fund amounts to billions every year..

If you sell it and distribute the proceeds then everyone will still get super (now funded entirely by debt).

[Azz]

Income tax on the fund amounts to billions every year..

If you sell it and distribute the proceeds then everyone will still get super (now funded entirely by debt).

That's a terrible financial model, a total ripoff.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Plenty there for Act to privatise first though (power companies, NZ post, kiwibank).

To be bought up by american banks and chinese state companies.

Labour lies a lot, and so do you. A paranoid Lefty freaked out that other parties might have the kind of hidden agendas that Labour do. But while ACT would be in no position to enact a secret programme of asset sales, devious Labour pushed ahead with He Puapua, 'co-governance', and 3 Waters but neglected to tell the public before any election. There is a backlash coming, believe me. All your howling about 'tax cuts' is not going to save the jobs of your red mates.

[Panda-NZ-]

That's a terrible financial model, a total ripoff.

Income tax which is sourced by the gains from overseas investments, bringing new money into the economy.

Plenty of benefits from even using debt to fund NZ super contributions.

NZ benefits from google and microsoft's AI advances, rather than being left out in the cold... how good is that.

[Azz]

Income tax which is sourced by the gains from overseas investments, bringing new money into the economy.

Plenty of benefits, from even using debt to fund NZ super contributions.

Where did the money come from to allow the government to contribute to the fund?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Income tax which is sourced by the gains from overseas investments, bringing new money into the economy.

Plenty of benefits, from even using debt to fund NZ super contributions.

NZ partly benefit's from google and microsoft's AI advances, rather than being left out in the cold... how good is that.

So borrow money (which we pay interest on) to pay into a fund so we can get the tax money. smh.

[Panda-NZ-]

Where did the money come from to allow the government to contribute to the fund?

I already explained three methods, I'll add a fourth for the benefit of simpletons.

1) Tax increase
2) print money
3) debt
4) spending reallocation.

Though it's basically funding itself now, if govts stopped stealing billions in income tax it could be put back in.

[Azz]

I already explained three methods, I'll add a fourth for the benefit of simpletons.

1)Tax increase
2) print money
3) debt
4) spending reallocation.

Though it's basically funding itself now, if govts stopped stealing billions in income tax it could be put back in.

In other words from citizens, from taxpayers. So that those same citizens can then be paid a tiny pension when they're 65?

[Panda-NZ-]

In other words from citizens, from taxpayers. So that those same citizens can then be paid a tiny pension when they're 65?

No... it can fund itself entirely now as I said.

Where do you think superannuation welfare money is coming from? taxpayers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I already explained three methods, I'll add a fourth for the benefit of the simpletons.

1)Tax increase
2)print money
3)debt
4)spending reallocation.

Though it's basically funding itself now, if govts stopped stealing billions in income tax it could be put back in.

When the Left offer untold freebies and bribes - which are actually not 'free' at all - then they hope to box the Right into a corner by leaving them nothing to offer the electorate. The Right then have no option but to offer tax cuts. And pretty modest ones at that. You are a deeply cynical person because you know exactly how the Left plays the game, and you delight in it, but voters see very easily what is going on.

'Printing money' is not an answer and never will be.

[Panda-NZ-]

When the Left offer untold freebies and bribes - which are actually not 'free' at all - then they hope to box the Right into a corner by leaving them nothing to offer the electorate. The Right then have no option but to offer tax cuts. And pretty modest ones at that. You are a deeply cynical person because you know exactly how the Left plays the game, and you delight in it, but voters see very easily what is going on.

'Printing money' is not an answer and never will be.

The parties of economic management have ruled out taxes simply due to ideology (or their support base).

Why would they if budget repair is the priority.

[Logen Ninefingers]

No... it can fund itself entirely now as I said.

Where do you think superannuation welfare money is coming from? taxpayers.

'From around 2035/36, the Government will begin to withdraw money from the Fund to help pay for New Zealand Superannuation.
The Fund will continue to grow until it peaks in size in 2070s.'

[Azz]

No... it can fund itself entirely now as I said.

Where do you think superannuation welfare money is coming from? taxpayers.

But all that money forcibly taken from citizens in the way of tax could have instead been used for saving for their retirement.

Or:

"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."--Winston S. Churchill

[Logen Ninefingers]

The parties of economic management have ruled out taxes simply due to ideology (or their support base).

Why would they if budget repair is the priority.

The game the Left play is handing out freebies in order to build support. So you expect the parties of the Right to counter this by raising taxes. Don't be such a clown, you think you are being clever but you're actually being a total dh.

[Azz]

'From around 2035/36, the Government will begin to withdraw money from the Fund to help pay for New Zealand Superannuation.
The Fund will continue to grow until it peaks in size in 2070s.'

Yeh I thought there must be an end-game. But not according to Panda-NZ.

[Panda-NZ-]

But all that money forcibly taken from citizens in the way of tax could have instead been used for saving for their retirement.

So exchange a tax for another tax?

Why, when we have the NZ super fund to pre-fund super liabilities.

[Azz]

When the Left offer untold freebies and bribes - which are actually not 'free' at all - then they hope to box the Right into a corner by leaving them nothing to offer the electorate. The Right then have no option but to offer tax cuts. And pretty modest ones at that. You are a deeply cynical person because you know exactly how the Left plays the game, and you delight in it, but voters see very easily what is going on.

'Printing money' is not an answer and never will be.

I'm flabbergasted at the printing money thing. Panda-NZ is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

[Logen Ninefingers]

But all that money forcibly taken from citizens in the way of tax could have instead been used for saving for their retirement.

Or:

"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."--Winston S. Churchill

red panda is obsessed with tax, just being a smarta*se by saying National should run a campaign on raising taxes or proposing a bunch of freebies itself. red panda hates our system, hates private ownership, hates 'the rich', hates anyone that would vote for National or ACT, hates bald people....just a hater. All 'Progressives' are in truth haters and wreckers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I'm flabbergasted at the printing money thing. Panda-NZ is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

red panda doesn't care. Do you think red panda or Robertson care if NZ drowns in debt? They are Progressives (= Socialists), they want 'the system to collapse'. Voting in Labour governments is like pouring a jar of termites over the foundations of your house.

[Panda-NZ-]

red panda is obsessed with tax, just being a smarta*se by saying National should run a campaign on raising taxes or proposing a bunch of freebies itself. red panda hates our system, hates private ownership, hates 'the rich', hates anyone that would vote for National or ACT, hates bald people....just a hater. All 'Progressives' are in truth haters and wreckers.

In the good old days budget repair meant raising taxes and cutting spending.

Not cut taxes, cut spending.

[Azz]

So exchange a tax for another tax?

Why, when we have the NZ super fund to pre-fund super liabilities.

All the money in the fund should be distributed equally to all New Zealanders (it's our money), into KiwiSaver accounts. The fund is turning political already now, it's not agnostic as to what it invests in, and it's pushing its weight around.

[Panda-NZ-]

red panda is obsessed with tax, just being a smarta*se by saying National should run a campaign on raising taxes or proposing a bunch of freebies itself. red panda hates our system, hates private ownership, hates 'the rich', hates anyone that would vote for National or ACT, hates bald people....just a hater. All 'Progressives' are in truth haters and wreckers.

Simply have a proposal that adds up.

They are running on economic management, not Labour. We know how bad they are, apparently, so the nats don't need to copy them.

[Panda-NZ-]

All the money in the fund should be distributed equally to all New Zealanders (it's our money), into KiwiSaver accounts. The fund is turning political already now, it's not agnostic as to what it invests in, and it's pushing its weight around.

Rediculous.. it's not replacing super. It's on top.

Worth at least two credit downgrades if ever implemented..

[Logen Ninefingers]

Simply have a proposal that adds up.

They are running on economic management, not Labour. We know how bad they are so you don't need to copy them

No, I don't think their campaign slogan is 'Economic Management' or anything like that. That's just your stupid spin. It wouldn't be hard to run the show better than Robertson is doing - massive wasteful spending and all that, free this, that, and the other. National have said they will address the waste. There are going to have to be cuts, and big cuts. We will be borrowing $940 million a week in 2024 thanks to Robertson, and the media and yourself are going nuts over a purported $540 million annual hole in Nationals tax plan.

The Left have gone far too far. They have wrecked the books.

[Azz]

Rediculous.. it's not replacing super. It's on top.

Worth at least two credit downgrades if ever implemented..

It's funded by taxes, and at the same time we're paying interest on government debt, and then some of the fund will be paid out to those same taxpayers when instead they could have just kept the money! Genius!

[Panda-NZ-]

It's funded by taxes, and at the same time we're paying interest on government debt, and then some of the fund will be paid out to those same taxpayers when instead they could have just kept the money! Genius!

Yeah you keep ignoring the massive bill we are paying for superannuation.

[Azz]

No, I don't think their campaign slogan is 'Economic Management' or anything like that. That's just your stupid spin. It wouldn't be hard to run the show better than Robertson is doing - massive wasteful spending and all that, free this, that, and the other. National have said they will address the waste. There are going to have to be cuts, and big cuts. We will be borrowing $940 million a week in 2024 thanks to Robertson, and the media and yourself are going nuts over a purported $540 million annual hole in Nationals tax plan.

The Left have gone far too far. They have wrecked the books.

If National/Act wins the election, I think they will need to have a press conference where they present to the nation the truth of the dire situation government finances are in.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Here another $238 million that will no doubt get written off. NZ has big, big problems. The PREFU was a tissue of lies.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/300970284/more-than-50000-people-with-working-for-families-debt

More than 50,000 people with Working for Families debt

Susan Edmunds
05:00, Sep 14 2023

'More than 50,000 people owed a combined $238 million in Working for Families debt in August – and there are concerns that proposed changes to the system could leave the poorest families worse off.

Data from Inland Revenue shows that the median debt owed per person affected was $2300.

In July 2020, 44,000 people owed $162m, with a median of $1600.

Working for Families payments are made to households with children, when they earn under set income thresholds. But if a household’s income is assessed incorrectly, they can end up being paid more than they were due and have to repay it.'

[Panda-NZ-]

The problem with all these wonderful ideas is it will drive down the NZ govt's net wealth.

Which will lead to credit rating downgrades moreso than a bit more debt (backed by strong quality assets).

[Logen Ninefingers]

The problem with all these wonderful ideas is it will drive down the NZ govt's net wealth.

Which will lead to credit rating downgrades moreso than a bit more debt (backed by strong assets).

Well the idea was to restart patments to the NZ Superannuation Fund once net debt was back at 20%. Labour said stuff that and have borrowed heavily to contribute to it, along with all their other borrowing. And now we are set to pay an eye-watering interest bill on all this debt. And you blithely just dismiss this as 'a bit more debt'. Unreal.

[Azz]

Yeah you keep ignoring the massive bill we are paying for superannuation.

Ignoring it? What? No I'm not. That's the problem - universal super. It needs to go. And it needs a government to outline a plan as to how 'increased KiwiSaver + means-tested super' will, over time, replace it. The Super Fund only makes the situation worse, it's so much money sitting there while the government has so much debt, and also it allows the fantasy of keeping universal super in place.

[Panda-NZ-]

Well the idea was to restart patments to the NZ Superannuation Fund once net debt was back at 20%. Labour said stuff that and have borrowed heavily to contribute to it, along with all their other borrowing. And now we are set to pay an eye-watering interest bill on all this debt. And you blithely just dismiss this as 'a bit more debt'. Unreal.

We all have debt Logen, it's a fact of life (along with taxes).

[Logen Ninefingers]

We all have debt Logen, it's a fact of life (along with taxes).

Speak for yourself.

[Azz]

Labour said stuff that and have borrowed heavily to contribute to it, along with all their other borrowing. And now we are set to pay an eye-watering interest bill on all this debt. And you blithely just dismiss this as 'a bit more debt'. Unreal.

It's utter madness. Total unmitigated stupidity by Labour.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Seymour said in a media release the update showed that within three years spending will be 11 billion higher than forecast last year which would lead to even more borrowing with net debt forecast to reach $100 billion by 2025.

"More debt means more interest. The interest bill is forecast to be $9.2 billion by 2026, exactly twice the $4.6 billion expected in BEFU 2022.

"New Zealand is now spending more as a country on interest than primary and secondary school education, and twice as much as is spent on police, courts and corrections combined. Kiwis' taxes aren't paying for public services, they're paying for Labour's mismanagement."

[Panda-NZ-]

Ignoring it? What? No I'm not. That's the problem - universal super. It needs to go.

Thank you, some honesty.
Put that idea to the electorate :)

[Azz]

Put that idea to the electorate :)

It can be, actually. And as part of that would be winding up the Fund and equally distributing the 60 billion-odd dollars in there to each New Zealander's KiwiSaver account.

[Panda-NZ-]

Seymour said in a media release the update showed that within three years spending will be 11 billion higher than forecast last year which would lead to even more borrowing with net debt forecast to reach $100 billion by 2025.


How much is our interest bill to Aussie banks?

[Azz]

We all have debt [...] it's a fact of life

Um, no......

[Logen Ninefingers]

How much is our interest bill to Aussie banks?

Here we go, deflecting on to something else entirely. How long until you bring up Luxon's time at Air New Zealand.

You said borrowing $940 million a week would be worth an instant credit downgrade; I sent you the news item & I haven't heard another peep out of you about it.

[Panda-NZ-]

You said borrowing $940 million a week would be worth an instant credit downgrade; I sent you the news item & I haven't heard another peep out of you about it.

It's unacceptable but National might be worse (ruling out tax increases that would actually work and deliver revenue).

THEN doing tax cuts of their own.

Remember we did get a credit rating downgrade under the national govt.

[Azz]

It's unacceptable but National might be worse (ruling out tax increases that would actually work and deliver revenue).

THEN doing tax cuts of their own.

Just as an example, how much revenue would a 100% tax rate bring in, you reckon?

[Panda-NZ-]

Just as an example, how much revenue would a 100% tax rate bring in, you reckon?

Well, 0% brings in nothing.. which predictably creates a budget problem.

[Azz]

Well, 0% brings in nothing.. which predictably creates a budget problem.

I agree, 0% does bring in nothing.

How much revenue would a 100% tax rate bring in, you reckon?

[Panda-NZ-]

I agree, 0% does bring in nothing.

How much revenue would a 100% tax rate bring in, you reckon?

More than nothing, but less than now given the risk of capital flight.

Can we move on from the silly questions (and ideas in your case).

[Logen Ninefingers]

It's unacceptable but National might be worse (ruling out tax increases that would actually work and deliver revenue).

THEN doing tax cuts of their own.

Remember we did get a credit rating downgrade under Bill english and he was more sensible compared to the current lot.

So we are four weeks out from an election and you think National would be wise to counter Labours giveaway of taking GST of off fruit and vegetables with *a proposal to raise taxes*. During a cost of living crisis.

If you are going to come here and act like a fool then you're doing it for your own amusement, though I can't see that it's very funny.

[Panda-NZ-]

So we are four weeks out from an election and you think National would be wise to counter Labours giveaway of taking GST of off fruit and vegetables with *a proposal to raise taxes*. During a cost of living crisis.


Where would national voters go if they adopted a CGT? Act who will support them anyway.

They are probably the only ones who can do it actually.

[Azz]

More than nothing, but less than now given the risk of capital flight.

Can we move on from the silly questions (and ideas in your case).

"More than nothing"................????! lol what? How would a 100% tax rate bring in "more than nothing"? Explain that. You would work and then hand over 100% of your profit/wages/whatever to the government? Really?

[Baa_Baa]

Never Wrestle with a Pig. You Both Get Dirty and the Pig Likes It

[Panda-NZ-]

"More than nothing"................????! lol what? How would a 100% tax rate bring in "more than nothing"? Explain that. You would work and then hand over 100% of your profit/wages/whatever to the government? Really?

You would do well in a youtube comments section but I don't have the self-discipline for this today.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Where would national voters go if they adopted a CGT? Act who will support them anyway.

They are probably the only ones who can do it actually.'

So you are saying they should run on a programme of putting on a CGT???? FFS!!

Why not have a decent debate, rather than posting such absolute hogwash?

What 'National voters'? You think the huge bunch of swingers that go flip-flopping between National and Labour 'belong' to any one party? Get off the grass.

[ValueNZ]

It's unacceptable but National might be worse (ruling out tax increases that would actually work and deliver revenue).

THEN doing tax cuts of their own.


Remember we did get a credit rating downgrade under the previous (more sensible) national govt.
Increasing tax rates doesn't actually automatically cause more tax revenue to be brought in. Search up Hauser's Law.

[Azz]

You would do well in a youtube comments section but I don't have the self-discipline for this today.

It's an important question, and it's interesting you refuse to answer. Because you seem to think that increasing taxes always means increased revenue - but it doesn't. Higher taxes can actually mean LESS revenue comes in. And lower taxes can actually mean MORE revenue comes in.

[Panda-NZ-]

'

So you are saying they should run on a programme of putting on a CGT???? FFS!!

In exchange for tax cuts elsewhere, yes and a bit towards budget repair. That's very moderate position rather than a hardline approach of no new taxes.

[Panda-NZ-]

So you are saying they should run on a programme of putting on a CGT???? FFS!!


I did say that I would support Nationals tax plan if it was funded by a CGT (maybe you remember).

Less taxes on those who work and more on those who don't.

[Azz]

Less taxes on those who work and more on those who don't.

You want to tax the unemployed?

[Panda-NZ-]

You want to tax the unemployed?

They're already taxed twice. You'll be pleased to know.

They don't get imputation credits for GST for instance ;)

[Azz]

They're already taxed twice. You'll will be pleased to know.

They don't get imputation credits for GST ;)

"pleased to know" - What do you mean by that?

[Logen Ninefingers]

They're already taxed twice. You'll will be pleased to know.

They don't get imputation credits for GST ;)

Facepalm. Massive facepalm.

[Logen Ninefingers]

"pleased to know" - What do you mean by that?

red panda is a wind up merchant.

[Azz]

red panda is a wind up merchant.

red panda is certainly something!

[Panda-NZ-]

red panda is certainly something!

You make another factually incorrect statement then have a go at me for correcting it. Nice.

How about a thank you.

[Azz]

You make another factually incorrect statement then have a go at me for correcting it. Nice.

How about, thank you.

You wrote:


Less taxes on those who work and more on those who don't.

And somehow I'm the baddie?

[justakiwi]

No idea whether you’re serious or not, but the majority of benefits are taxed. Something which makes zero sense to me. It’s just money moving between government departments, achieving nothing.


You want to tax the unemployed?

[Logen Ninefingers]

No idea whether you’re serious or not, but the majority of benefits are taxed. Something which makes zero sense to me. It’s just money moving between government departments, achieving nothing.

It probably makes then feel like they are contributing in some way (as you point out, they aren’t really) and it allows people like red panda to grandstand about how beneficiaries are taxed and taxed again via GST.

35,000 people on ‘Jobseeker’ for more than one year when employers are crying out for workers.

[Azz]

No idea whether you’re serious or not, but the majority of benefits are taxed. Something which makes zero sense to me. It’s just money moving between government departments, achieving nothing.

Panda-NZ advocated for "less taxes on those who work and more on those who don't". That's what I was pointing out. I'm not saying benefits are not taxed.

[justakiwi]

Thanks for clarifying. As I said, I think it is ridiculous that benefits are taxed. It would be far better to make them tax free so that people get a little more in their pocket. That way, maybe (at least some) beneficiaries would be able to survive without needing additional emergency type payments.

As an example, taken from the WINZ website:

A single person over 18 on a supported living payment (health related)
Gross weekly payment = $443.73
Nett weekly payment = $384.92

Tax = $58.81/week

$58 is a significant amount. Enough for many people on that benefit to manage without having to ask WINZ for extra support via an emergency grant or whatever. $58 could be the difference between being able to put food on the table that week, or seeing a GP, or putting towards their power bill. It makes absolutely no sense to tax beneficiaries, then have to provide additional financial support, in order for them to survive.

Our government, whichever one, needs to start thinking outside the square.




Panda-NZ advocated for "less taxes on those who work and more on those who don't". That's what I was pointing out. I'm not saying benefits are not taxed.

[fungus pudding]

Jones' prediction for election - 20 to 23 seats for Act.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2023/09/15/ministry-of-pacific-affairs/#more-5536

[justakiwi]

Well that is a seriously concerning potential scenario.


Jones' prediction for election - 20 to 23 seats for Act.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2023/09/15/ministry-of-pacific-affairs/#more-5536

[777]

Thanks for clarifying. As I said, I think it is ridiculous that benefits are taxed. It would be far better to make them tax free so that people get a little more in their pocket. That way, maybe (at least some) beneficiaries would be able to survive without needing additional emergency type payments.

As an example, taken from the WINZ website:

A single person over 18 on a supported living payment (health related)
Gross weekly payment = $443.73
Nett weekly payment = $384.92

Tax = $58.81/week

$58 is a significant amount. Enough for many people on that benefit to manage without having to ask WINZ for extra support via an emergency grant or whatever. $58 could be the difference between being able to put food on the table that week, or seeing a GP, or putting towards their power bill. It makes absolutely no sense to tax beneficiaries, then have to provide additional financial support, in order for them to survive.

Our government, whichever one, needs to start thinking outside the square.

If you paid them untaxed all they would get is the 384.92. It is grossed up to get that figure.
It needs to taxed as some spend some time on benefit during year and sometime employed.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Well that is a seriously concerning potential scenario.

Why? Because you a big fan of runaway government spending? Your needless hatred of ACT is pitiful.

[davflaws]

davflaws, how does giving back large patches of farm/forestry land help urban/the majority of Maori?

Doesn't seem to be a real solution?

Sorry -can't help. Haven't followed the issue. I understand that in the North at least, iwi organisations add money from their own resources to supplement govt funding so they can enhance the services offred on a contractual basis. That probably applies elsewhere as well.

But I doubt that TOW settlements are regarded by the parties as being connected to or intended for directly assisting the urban poor (or the rural poor of the rohe for that matter) more as a duty owed by one party to recognise and right a wrong (at 2 or 3 cents in the dollar) done to the other.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sensible policies from ACT that will be demonised by the bleeding hearts and latent marxists that are turning New Zealand into an economic basket-case.

Stress is a normal part of life and a normal part of working. Stress comes with having responsibilities, both for ones self & for loved ones. People who assume the responsibilities of being a good and productive citizen will experience stress when they deal with work commitments, family commitments, mortgage and other financial commitments. 'Stress' is not a valid reason to spend one's life opting out of commitments and expecting the nation to pick up the costs associated with that choice.

If intellectually handicapped, disabled, and elderly people can all undertake paid work then people who experience 'stress' and addictions certainly can as well, with the right support.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-act-leader-david-seymour-wants-to-see-more-drug-addicts-sickness-beneficiaries-rejoin-workforce/5JPKNI6IX5GFROHSW67ISHBD5Q/

Election 2023: Act leader David Seymour wants to see more drug addicts, sickness beneficiaries rejoin workforce

RNZ
15 Sep, 2023 01:05 PM

'Drug addicts will face the prospect of losing their benefit if they refuse treatment or don’t make efforts to find work, the Act Party leader says.

David Seymour who is visiting Christchurch today has announced the party’s policy on welfare which takes a harder line on drug addicts and those on sickness benefits, including those who suffer from long-term stress.

Act wants to reduce the current number of 4000 people who receive the Supported Living Payment because of stress, 70 per cent of them for more than five years.

Stress is a condition that can be treated over time, not a permanent incapacity, the party says.

Under the welfare policy “designated doctors” will be hired to identify cases of fraud and ineligibility, ensure people are on the correct benefit, and are supported to meet any job-seeking obligations.

“It will increase the number of cases that are picked up as fraud, as there will be more active inquiries into cases, and doctors will feel empowered to offer a frank opinion.”

The party will also ease pressure on doctors over assessments of whether a beneficiary has the capacity to work.

At present they are required to discuss a work capacity certificate with the patient and ensure they agree to the information being provided.

“They are put in a difficult position if the patient disagrees with their opinion. Act will allow doctors to complete work capacity certificates privately so they can give a frank opinion,” Seymour says.

The newly released welfare policy is tied in with Act’s policy announced earlier to rename the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission as Mental Health and Addiction New Zealand which would organise providers for a person’s therapy and care.

Earlier this week Seymour was promoting the party’s law and order policy, saying Act would ensure tougher sentences for serious crimes, increase the capacity of the prison system and put victims back in the centre of the justice system.

Act says 4100 people receive a benefit because they are addicted to drugs, costing taxpayers $76 million a year. About 2700 of them are on the Jobseeker benefit and almost 30 per cent of them have received it for more than six years.

“Either they’re choosing not to comply with the obligations of their benefit, or their addiction is so far gone that they can’t comply,” Seymour said.

More than 1000 have been receiving a benefit for more than 10 years.

ACT intends taking “a more proactive approach” with drug-addicted beneficiaries.

“For those on the Jobseeker benefit, this will mean greater enforcement of job-seeking obligations and preparing for work. The most urgent task is ensuring beneficiaries can get clean enough to work.”

To this end the party intends cracking down on any people who it says might be responsible for their own “incapacity” so that they can receive a benefit.

“One way of demonstrating this would be participation in mental health and addiction services. Someone who demonstrates no intention of, or motivation to, address their incapacity and become independent may find themselves ineligible for a benefit.”

The party is promising that mental health and addiction services will be available for those seeking treatment, saying its plans to recruit more health workers will ease current shortages.

Seymour says it’s appropriate some people who have a significant illness or disability are supported, however, of the 165,000 New Zealanders receiving either Jobseeker Support - Health Condition or Disability or the Supported Living Payment “many could return to work if they got the right support”.

“Act says if you can work, you should.”

Features of the policy Act intends to push for:

-Require Ministry of Social Development case managers to consider if all reasonable treatment options have been pursued before deciding if a medical condition should be accepted as permanent.

- Expand the roles of regional health advisors and “designated doctors” to pick up on fraud and ineligibility, ensure people are on the correct benefit, and are supported to meet any job-seeking obligations.

- Enable doctors to complete work capacity certificates privately to avoid having to provide advice under duress.

- Take a more proactive and systematic approach to ensuring beneficiaries whose primary incapacity is substance abuse are taking steps to become independent

Seymour blames Labour for wasting the potential of thousands of people by allowing them to remain them on welfare for years on end.

“Act will provide hope and opportunity by helping sick and drug-addicted beneficiaries who can get off the benefit and back into work to do so,” Seymour says.'

[Panda-NZ-]

What will having drug addicts, ex-crims and others in a workplace do for productivity?

Will the current workforce become more stressed at having to work alongside them, and leave?

[Entrep]

Sorry -can't help. Haven't followed the issue. I understand that in the North at least, iwi organisations add money from their own resources to supplement govt funding so they can enhance the services offred on a contractual basis. That probably applies elsewhere as well.

But I doubt that TOW settlements are regarded by the parties as being connected to or intended for directly assisting the urban poor (or the rural poor of the rohe for that matter) more as a duty owed by one party to recognise and right a wrong (at 2 or 3 cents in the dollar) done to the other.

Isn't the money much better spent on education and other initiatives to actually lift Maori up then?

[Logen Ninefingers]

What will having drug addicts, ex-crims and others in a workplace do for productivity?

Will the current workforce become more stressed at having to work alongside them.

Well there you go, writing a whole group pf people off and saying they are beyond help & can never earn decent incomes, never take personal responsibility, never know the dignity and the self esteem that comes with paid work, never know the camaraderie of a workplace & the joy and respect that goes with that.

Why are the Left so keen to write people off and say they are beyond help?
Why are the Left so keen to see drug addicts stay on the drugs, stay on a benefit, and eventually succumb to a miserable death in some execrable hovel somewhere?
Why do the Left - who say they are all about ‘rehabilitation’ and second chances - not want ‘ex crims’ to work?
Why do the Left want to see someone with ‘stress’ stay on a benefit for the rest of their lives?

Because the Left needs societal flotsam and jetsam to both sustain its philosophy, & to provide its support base. The Left needs to be able to point at various groups of ‘victims’ and say “see, the system doesn’t work, ‘capitalism’ has failed, we need ‘progressivism, we need a revolution’. The Left needs downtrodden and disenfranchised people to sustain it, it needs to stoke envy and hate. It needs to stoke anger and division. Don’t ever think that the Left promotes ‘kindness’. It is quite the opposite.

[Panda-NZ-]

This social experiment could have come from the left - ie the labour party.

Regardless of where it comes from its doomed to fail.

Keep in mind if they do get a job they're still poor and not gonna be national voters.

[blackcap]

Jones' prediction for election - 20 to 23 seats for Act.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2023/09/15/ministry-of-pacific-affairs/#more-5536

That would be awesome. That would reign in some more the woke, liberal policies that National currently are promoting. A strong ACT would reign National in quite nicely.

[Logen Ninefingers]

This social experiment could have come from the left - ie the labour party.

Regardless of where it comes from its doomed to fail.

Keep in mind if they do get a job they're still poor and not gonna be national voters.

I don’t care about who they vote for, I care that they are supported and helped and get back into society rather than die in a ditch somewhere so that the Left can use them in its nihilistic propaganda.

If you had any empathy you’d get past your bleak pessimism and get in behind initiatives like this, rather than pooh-pooh the whole thing before you even see the detail. But I suppose you approach every issue with a Left-wing mindset: “Duh, ‘neoliberalism’, duh, ‘capitalist exploiters’….trickle down hurr durr…’selfish’, innit….Marx good…ACT bad.”

[Panda-NZ-]

Marx would endorse putting these workers into the capitalist economy to sabotage the production process.

I'm for lifting and not lowering NZ's productivity.

[fungus pudding]

That would be awesome. That would reign in some more the woke, liberal policies that National currently are promoting. A strong ACT would reign National in quite nicely.

I think 20 to 23 is a high estimate. 14-16 should be achievable. The main thing is to get Nat/Act high enough so they can give a polite 2 finger salute to Winston first. That would give us a sensible stable govt.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Marx would endorse putting these workers into the capitalist economy to sabotage the production process.

I'm for lifting and not lowering NZ's productivity.

As I said before: you’ve written off thousands of people and have said they are beyond rehabilitation & beyond redemption. Even people who have ‘stress’! You are perfectly happy to see them live hand-to-mouth on benefits for the rest of their days. I’m disgusted at your attitude.

[Logen Ninefingers]

This social experiment could have come from the left - ie the labour party.

Regardless of where it comes from its doomed to fail.

Keep in mind if they do get a job they're still poor and not gonna be national voters.

‘Regardless of where it comes from its doomed to fail.’

————

Speaking of things that don’t work and are doomed to fail: Marxism.

[Panda-NZ-]

You seem to like Marx as you spreak about him alot.

I don't have alot of time for long dead philosophers (except the greek ones who were brilliant).

[Logen Ninefingers]

You seem to like Marx as you spreak about him alot.

I don't have alot of time for long dead philosophers (except the greek ones who were brilliant).

So - using your rationale - you seem to like Luxon as you speak about him a lot.

[Panda-NZ-]

Wonder why - he's running to be our PM.

I'm not trying to revive someone whose long expired. :)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Wonder why - he's running to be our PM.

I'm not trying to revive someone whose long expired. :)

Are you talking about Chipkins political career or Robbo’s credibility?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Wonder why - he's running to be our PM.

I'm not trying to revive someone whose long expired. :)

Well done on the constant edits btw.

[Panda-NZ-]

Are you talking about Chipkins political career or Robbo’s credibility?

Or Luxon's charisma. :p

Why is he scared of a debate with chris hipkins for instance, who has minimal achievements in govt.

Weak and ineffective.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Or Luxon's charisma. :p

Why is he scared of a debate with chris hipkins for instance, who has minimal achievements in govt.

Weak and ineffective.

He probably fears an ambush, perhaps a biased mediator, some Left wing plants in the audience asked skewed questions, collusion between Labour and the organisers. You know, standard Left wing tactics. If he talks himself down then he lowers expectations for the whole event.
I just saw a video of Chipkins talking to media today and he was practically frothing at the mouth, he seemed very wound up and angry and verging on hysteria as he spewed forth a torrent of lies. Luxon by contrast always seems quite relaxed.

[fungus pudding]

He probably fears an ambush, perhaps a biased mediator, some Left wing plants in the audience asked skewed questions, collusion between Labour and the organisers. You know, standard Left wing tactics. If he talks himself down then he lowers expectations for the whole event.
I just saw a video of Chipkins talking to media today and he was practically frothing at the mouth, he seemed very wound up and angry and verging on hysteria as he spewed forth a torrent of lies. Luxon by contrast always seems quite relaxed.

Don't overlook the fact that Luxon was a champion debater in his student days. He'll make mincemeat of Chippie. Lowering expectations is a long established way to knock an opponent off balance.

[Panda-NZ-]

He really did talk himself down by saying his wife was a better debater (why isn't she running then lol).

Luxon would make a good finance minister, not a PM.

[Panda-NZ-]

Don't overlook the fact that Luxon was a champion debater in his student days. He'll make mincemeat of Chippie. Lowering expectations is a long established way to knock an opponent off balance.

It would be apparent by now in the media interviews he's done. He's flat on the delivery.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It would be apparent by now in the media interviews he's done. He's flat on the delivery.

He's got 'progressive' journo's haranguing him every day. Is reasonably calm under fire under the circumstances. Imagine a world where Chipkins was also asked 'tough questions'.

Prime Minister, you've committed to building Light Rail in Auckland, how will you pay for it and why are the costs not included in your projections?
Prime Minister, how can you say your promises are fully funded when you are set to borrow $940 million a week in 2024?
Prime Minister, why have public services not improved even though your government has increased spending by 80%?
Prime Minister, why has the expected net debt projection for 2027 exploded by $55 billion since 2021?
Prime Minister, how will you pay for a second Auckland harbour crossing?

[Logen Ninefingers]

'Go Woke, Go Broke' far left media outlet 'Stuff' has accused ACT of 'targeting' drug addicts and 'the mentally ill'. At least, that's the inflammatory headline to the article written by a young progressive journalist. Of course, the accompanying photo features David Seymour in a silly hat.

This is the woke media company that aleady 'went broke' once.....it was such a loss maker that Nine Media sold it to its editor Sinead Boucher for the token sum of $1.

Since then Boucher has loaded the organisation with young progressive journalists, while periodically taking a razor to costs....usually by sacking staff. Who knows if any of what she is doing is actually working. The company is certainly woker.
But now the company seems to have staked everything on hiring acidic 'Queen of Mean' political journo Tova O'Brien, trumpeting her podcast with increasing desperation - including a banner this week on the website with the wording: 'Look out politicians - Tova's back'. Oooooh....I'm sure they are quaking in their boots.
Without soft shooting-fish-in-a-barrell targets like Jami Lee-Ross to inviscerate & her moosh on TV, the waspish O'Brien is just another talking head. Podcasts and opinion pieces by someone with tickets on themself? Why would anyone bother to read them or tune in?!

Anyway, the predictable demise of 'Stuff' is probably just a matter of time. Nine Media must be breathing a sigh of relief that they were able to off-load it at all. Better to recieve $1 that to have it kark itself while on their books.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I wonder if people were paid by Labour to show up and 'gasp' at Willis's answer. As if National's policies would not be supportive of house prices.
Labour enacted a whole bunch of policies without any analysis that produced the biggest surge in NZ house prices that this nation has ever seen.
The hypocrisy of Labourites knows no bounds.
People who are desperate to sell their house will have the sensation of a penny dropping. People who are now in negative equity will have the same sensation. If you need to sell up to go into a retirement home, or move up the ladder, or head off to Australia, you'll hear something like what Bernard Hickey said on the news last night - "prices could go up 20%!" - and you'd say to your significant other "sounds good to me - two ticks Blue!"
People in the 'squeezed middle' seeing their equity increase - how NZers really measure their wealth - will also be saying "yes! Two ticks Blue!"

The reason for the faux outrage from the Labourites and the media is because house prices have been falling, and Labour now wants to make out they've deliberately engineered that to help out first home buyers. Turn it up! It's been Reserve Bank interest rate rises that have done that. (Unless Labour want to 'take credit' for high inflation?!)

Anyway, interesting comments re ACT below -

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/on-the-campaign-september-15-what-you-missed-on-the-election-campaign-today/NC5TM252SBGIXJ6L4SCVDTXKDI/

On the Campaign, September 15: What you missed on the election campaign today

NZ Herald
15 Sep, 2023 06:01 PM

'While the first televised leaders debate does not take place until next Tuesday, two debates last night have already showed where some voters are swinging.

The main party’s financial spokespersons - Labour’s Grant Robertson, National’s Nicola Willis, the Greens’ James Shaw and Act’s David Seymour - butted heads in Queenstown last night for the ASB Great debate.

At the same time, Hamilton played host to a debate on rural issues, hosted by Newstalk ZB’s Heather du Plessis-Allan and organised by Dairy NZ, Beef and Lamb and Federated Farmers. In attendance were Labour’s Damien O’Connor, National’s Todd McClay, the Greens’ Eugenie Sage, Act’s Andrew Hoggard, and NZ First’s Mark Patterson.

Speaking to On the Campaign, the Herald’s daily election podcast, du Plessis-Allan said National’s Todd McClay was the big winner, while Labour’s Damien O’Connor performed well but not well enough to counter the toxic view farmers have of the Government.

Du Plessis-Allan said she expects Labour to lose many of their rural seats in a “bloodbath”, but does not think those votes will automatically go to National.

“I think what you will see is a huge swing from Labour to Act. I think part of that is they have been courting the farmers for a long time, but also people like [former Federated Farmers president turned Act candidate] Andrew Hoggard are bringing the votes over.

“Don’t expect red to blue, expect red to blue and yellow.”

The Herald’s Derek Cheng was at the ASB Great Debate, and said Willis and Seymour received the most warmth from the room, but Seymour won the debate in his eyes with his interjections and good humour throughout.

However, some of Willis’ answers provoked a “gasp” from the audience.

“One of them in particular was when she was asked National’s plans on interest deductibility and the brightline test and rolling those changes back and what effect that would have on house prices, and she said ‘I don’t know what effect that will have on house prices’, and the audience was deafeningly silent and was taken aback by that.”

Another comment from Willis potentially caught her leader off guard this morning, when she told Breakfast she will resign if the party’s promised tax cuts can’t be delivered, as the debate continues over the foreign buyer tax policy.'

[davflaws]

Deleted deleted

[davflaws]

Isn't the money much better spent on education and other initiatives to actually lift Maori up then?

Depends what you mean by "the money" - white man.
I can't say what happens now, but I know that in the North when I was involved, iwi organisations involved in education supplemented contractual. govt services with their own funding.

Whether TOW settlements should be "earmarked" for particular purposes as a condition of their provision or scrapped completely and replaced by an expanded education and health/welfare/social service/housing system is another matter altogether.

[jonu]

Depends what you mean by "the money" - white man.
I can't say what happens now, but I know that in the North when I was involved, iwi organisations involved in education supplemented contractual. govt services with their own funding.

Whether TOW settlements should be "earmarked" for particular purposes as a condition of their provision or scrapped completely and replaced by an expanded education and health/welfare/social service/housing system is another matter altogether.

"White man". What the hell?

I don't know what region of the north you are referring to davflaws, but seeing as Ngapuhi and Ngati Hine haven't yet settled with the Crown, any funding they supplement is just coming from another tranche of government coffers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

"White man". What the hell?

I don't know what region of the north you are referring to davflaws, but seeing as Ngapuhi and Ngati Hine haven't yet settled with the Crown, any funding they supplement is just coming from another tranche of government coffers.

Northland maori are being left behind because their in-fighting over who should be negotiating with the Crown is seeing them standing at the station bereft while the gravy train sits idly on the tracks. Meanwhile Waikato maori are becoming an economic powerhouse, deploying capital into everything from mega shopping centres to inland ports.

[iceman]

It's unacceptable but National might be worse (ruling out tax increases that would actually work and deliver revenue).

THEN doing tax cuts of their own.

Remember we did get a credit rating downgrade under the national govt.

Of course the alternative to tax increases to “deliver revenue” is to cut the waste on the other side of the ledger. There is a lot to choose from. But I don’t think you and your ilk have any comprehension of what wasteful spending actually means

[Panda-NZ-]

Of course the alternative to tax increases to “deliver revenue” is to cut the waste on the other side of the ledger. There is a lot to choose from. But I don’t think you and your ilk have any comprehension of what wasteful spending actually means

But you're going to cut taxes at the same time. illogical.

[iceman]

But you're going to cut taxes at the same time. illogical.
But you and your mates want to increase both tax revenue and expenditure ! Is that logical then ?

[ValueNZ]

But you're going to cut taxes at the same time. illogical.
Being able to cut taxes is preciously the point of cutting wasteful spending.

More money in the hands of individuals who are better able to spend the cash in an efficient way.

[Logen Ninefingers]

But you're going to cut taxes at the same time. illogical.

And Labour are cutting taxes too. GST coming off fruit & vegetables. And yet still gearing up to borrow $940 million a week.

red panda belongs to the school of philosophical thought known as ‘it’s ok when Labour does it’.

[Panda-NZ-]

red panda belongs to the school of philosophical thought known as ‘it’s ok when Labour does it’.

Is national going to stop crying about economic management and the budget then.

Since they will do the same.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Is national going to stop crying about economic management and the budget then.

Since they will do the same.

I don’t think National is going to do ‘the same’. They will need to cut, there’s no two ways about it. Labour have spent like drunken sailors without improving outcomes, so ‘something is rotten in the state of Denmark’. There will be no more lavish breakfasts, opulent farewells, ‘working groups’ will go, consultants will be pushed off the gravy train, thumb twiddling bureaucrats will be ejected, ‘communications staff’ will find other work elsewhere, and so on and so forth.
Sorry to poop your lovely Lefty party, but austerity is incoming.
If nothing else, this Labour administration has proved that massive and unsustainable spending does not produce better outcomes, so the ‘nine years of neglect’ myth can be consigned to the dustbin of political propaganda history.

[Panda-NZ-]

I don’t think National is going to do ‘the same’.

"I don't think".
"Im fully confident".
"It's about the vibe".

It's what they say they are going to do in their own policies.

[Logen Ninefingers]

"I don't think".
"Im fully confident".
"It's about the vibe".

It's what they say they are going to do in their own policies.

You like to get caught up in semantics and hammer away at your narrow set of talking points. It’s like you have a piece of paper in front of you with a few things written on it: ‘$20 bucks’ , ‘show us the numbers’ , ‘they’re the same so why would ‘we’ change’, ‘bald man bad’.

As I said previously, a common propaganda tactic is to hammer away at a few talking points that you always come back to, attempts to continue the same narrow debate to the point of exhaustion….are you sitting in one of President Xi’s bot farms?

[Panda-NZ-]

You like to get caught up in semantics and hammer away at your narrow set of talking points. It’s like you have a piece of paper in front of you with a few things written on it: ‘$20 bucks’ , ‘show us the numbers’ , ‘they’re the same so why would ‘we’ change’, ‘bald man bad’.



That's actually a very diverse set of talking points.

It's not like I say strong economic management, back on track or "delivery" ad nauseum.

[Logen Ninefingers]

That's actually a very diverse set of talking points.

It's not like I say strong economic management, back on track or "delivery" ad nauseum.

Well ‘back on track’ is the official campaign slogan. It’s a phrase you seem to have taken great umbrage with.
Do you think National should be banned from having one?
Labour has one: ‘in it for YOU’. I know because Chipkins pops up on my TV screen telling me he has my back and he’s in it for me. The only problem is: I don’t believe him.

[Panda-NZ-]

Well ‘back on track’ is the official campaign slogan. It’s a phrase you seem to have taken great umbrage with.
Do you think National should be banned from having one?
Labour has one: ‘in it for YOU’. I know because Chipkins pops up on my TV screen telling me he has my back and he’s in it for me. The only problem is: I don’t believe him.

You know it's bad when it can be used in puns though.

Delivery.. back on track... I and other commentators and/or satirists have a field day with those. :)

[Logen Ninefingers]

You know it's bad when it can be used in puns though.

Delivery.. back on track... I and other commentators and/or satirists have a field day with those. :)

‘Delivering for maori’, pretty such the Labourites came up with that one.

[Azz]

BlackPeter: stop stalking me round the site. And stop giving me negative Reputation, you just did another you idiot. You have faulty impulse control, and anger management issues, I suggest you get professional help.

[davflaws]

Firstly, negative effects of ‘colonisation’ are a given and were not disputed by me.

Yes they were. In the context of a discussion of the discraceful disparity between current Maori and non maori life expectancy, you wrote:

Pre-European Maori had a life expectancy of 28 - 30 years, and their ‘healthcare system’ and dietary intake were rudimentary at best..........................
.................So tell me again how ‘colonisation’ has lead to appalling outcomes for Maori….


And that what was called out as stupid, ignorant, and racist.



With regards to your attack over the use of the term ‘Stone Age’, anthropologists would certainly categorise the civilisation that the first Europeans encountered as ‘Stone Age’; how else could it be described? Iron Age? No. Bronze Age? No.

Again, you conveniently continue to conflate first european contact with colonisation. In the 80 odd years between Cook and the wave of settlers that swamped and disposesssed Maori, the latter eagerly adopted western technology and some social and cultural practices. Maori were not stone age people when they were colonised, and claiming that they were, and advancing that claim to defend and deny the ongoing deleterious effects of that colonisation is ignorant, stupid, and racist.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Yes they were. In the context of a discussion of the discraceful disparity between current Maori and non maori life expectancy, you wrote:


And that what was called out as stupid, ignorant, and racist.



Again, you conveniently continue to conflate first european contact with colonisation. In the 80 odd years between Cook and the wave of settlers that swamped and disposesssed Maori, the latter eagerly adopted western technology and some social and cultural practices. Maori were not stone age people when they were colonised, and claiming that they were, and advancing that claim to defend and deny the ongoing deleterious effects of that colonisation is ignorant, stupid, and racist.

The ‘colonisation’ process demonstrably started on the day of contact. To try to say that it’s a process that only started on an exact date to be decided by you is tantamount to stating that you own facts, and you don’t. ‘Colonisation’ began on the day that European tools, weapons, food stuffs, methods etc began to be introduced to, and adopted by, the Maori world.

I find you to be aggressive, arrogant, and abusive. You think you are a smartsa*se when you repeat your little sentence time and time again. My contention is that contact and colonisation have not produced ‘appalling outcomes’ for contemporary maori people, and I fully stand by that comment. If there had been no contact & no adoption of European food stuffs and methods then it is possible that maori could have died out altogether in these islands. With very little quality protein sources since they wiped out species such as the moa, at the very least maori would have faced harsh and miserable lives, fully borne out by the fact that their pre-contact like expectancy was 28 - 30 years.

The astonishing thing about you is that you equate one side of a debate over history with ‘racism’. Not once have I said that the maori ‘race’ (anthropologists state that ‘race’ is an artificial construct) is physically or intellectually inferior to Europeans. This is the only basis whereby someone can be called a racist. The rest is a debate around historical facts. The only recent instance I have seen of any individual or group being racist is when the Maori Party website stated that maori are ‘genetically superior’ to others.

Likewise, saying that prior to the arrival of Europeans, maori were a ‘stone age’ culture is not racist, it is historical fact. You come along and say “but they adopted European tools and methods”. Yes, they did. And prior to getting their hands on European tools and methods they were a ‘stone age’ culture.

[Balance]

The ‘colonisation’ process demonstrably started on the day of contact. To try to say that it’s a process that only started on an exact date to be decided by you is tantamount to stating that you own facts, and you don’t. ‘Colonisation’ began on the day that European tools, weapons, food stuffs, methods etc began to be introduced to, and adopted by, the Maori world.

I find you to be aggressive, arrogant, and abusive. You think you are a smartsa*se when you repeat your little sentence time and time again. My contention is that contact and colonisation have not produced ‘appalling outcomes’ for contemporary maori people, and I fully stand by that comment. If there had been no contact & no adoption of European food stuffs and methods then it is possible that maori could have died out altogether in these islands. With very little quality protein sources since they wiped out species such as the moa, at the very least maori would have faced harsh and miserable lives, fully borne out by the fact that their pre-contact like expectancy was 28 - 30 years.

The astonishing thing about you is that you equate one side of a debate over history with ‘racism’. Not once have I said that the maori ‘race’ (anthropologists state that ‘race’ is an artificial construct) is physically or intellectually inferior to Europeans. This is the only basis whereby someone can be called a racist. The rest is a debate around historical facts. The only recent instance I have seen of any individual or group being racist is when the Maori Party website stated that maori are ‘genetically superior’ to others.

Likewise, saying that prior to the arrival of Europeans, maori were a ‘stone age’ culture is not racist, it is historical fact. You come along and say “but they adopted European tools and methods”. Yes, they did. And prior to getting their hands on European tools and methods they were a ‘stone age’ culture.

Don't get too worked up with davflaws - he is a do-gooder who has failed to make any appreciable difference to the so-called underprivileged he believes he champions.

Self-help is the best help, and a hand up is the only help vs a hand out - something that people like davflaws cannot comprehend.

Labour and he are only interested in breeding losers, beneficiaries and parasites - plus let me add, criminals as the last 3 years have showed with this Labour government.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1694726390289-JVEL3UN411STPB8MNNG7/Research.jpg?format=500w

[ithaka]

Likewise, saying that prior to the arrival of Europeans, maori were a ‘stone age’ culture is not racist, it is historical fact. You come along and say “but they adopted European tools and methods”. Yes, they did. And prior to getting their hands on European tools and methods they were a ‘stone age’ culture.
Prior to the arrival of Europeans, Maoris had a Stone Age culture. Put simply, their most sophisticated tools were made of stone, wood and bone but not pottery. It was not easy to warm water! They had no metallurgy. They had not discovered the wheel or its uses – transport was by foot or afloat. (Do not imagine endless magnificent war canoes; more often humble makeshift rafts). Food was what could be gathered from nature, albeit there was some cultivation of the sweet potato that had arrived with them, in places where it was warm enough to grow. Thus, the menu: dogs, rats, fish, birds, maybe and fern roots, native plants and berries and of course, human flesh: a handy slave girl casually slaughtered if sufficient captives from the last raid on a weaker neighbouring tribe were not available. No mutton, beef, pork, potatoes or corn.


For some reason, it is considered a racial insult to describe their culture as “Stone Age”. However that does not change the facts.
https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/09/bruce-moon-charlie-martin-and-bigger.html

[Logen Ninefingers]

Prior to the arrival of Europeans, Maoris had a Stone Age culture. Put simply, their most sophisticated tools were made of stone, wood and bone but not pottery. It was not easy to warm water! They had no metallurgy. They had not discovered the wheel or its uses – transport was by foot or afloat. (Do not imagine endless magnificent war canoes; more often humble makeshift rafts). Food was what could be gathered from nature, albeit there was some cultivation of the sweet potato that had arrived with them, in places where it was warm enough to grow. Thus, the menu: dogs, rats, fish, birds, maybe and fern roots, native plants and berries and of course, human flesh: a handy slave girl casually slaughtered if sufficient captives from the last raid on a weaker neighbouring tribe were not available. No mutton, beef, pork, potatoes or corn.


For some reason, it is considered a racial insult to describe their culture as “Stone Age”. However that does not change the facts.
https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/09/bruce-moon-charlie-martin-and-bigger.html

I think a guy like davflaws has probably gone to University and been force-fed for multiple years a narrative that conforms with his confirmation biases. He cannot take any alternate narrative and must deploy this hackneyed term ‘racist’ at the earliest possible opportunity as a standard left wing tactic of cancelling (out) anyone on the other side of the debate.

The extraordinary this is that the genuine racists amongst us are people like Rawiri Waititi who believe that people with maori ethnicity are ‘genetically superior’ to others. I find Waititi to be stupid. I find Waititi to be ignorant. I find Waititi to be racist. People like davflaws and Chipkins can’t - or won’t - see that though.

[justakiwi]

I suspect the vast majority of those who disapproval of the term "Stone Age" being used in this context, disapprove purely because it is incorrect to use it this way

The Stone Age was a specific period of time in history. It ended around 3,300BC - so it most certainly does not apply to Maori.

"The Stone Age began about 2.6 million years ago, when researchers found the earliest evidence of humans using stone tools, and lasted until about 3,300 B.C. when the Bronze Age began. It is typically broken into three distinct periods: the Paleolithic Period, Mesolithic Period and Neolithic Period"



Prior to the arrival of Europeans, Maoris had a Stone Age culture. Put simply, their most sophisticated tools were made of stone, wood and bone but not pottery. It was not easy to warm water! They had no metallurgy. They had not discovered the wheel or its uses – transport was by foot or afloat. (Do not imagine endless magnificent war canoes; more often humble makeshift rafts). Food was what could be gathered from nature, albeit there was some cultivation of the sweet potato that had arrived with them, in places where it was warm enough to grow. Thus, the menu: dogs, rats, fish, birds, maybe and fern roots, native plants and berries and of course, human flesh: a handy slave girl casually slaughtered if sufficient captives from the last raid on a weaker neighbouring tribe were not available. No mutton, beef, pork, potatoes or corn.


For some reason, it is considered a racial insult to describe their culture as “Stone Age”. However that does not change the facts.
https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/09/bruce-moon-charlie-martin-and-bigger.html

[Logen Ninefingers]

I suspect the vast majority of those who disapproval of the term "Stone Age" being used in this context, disapprove purely because it is incorrect to use it this way

The Stone Age was a specific period of time in history. It ended around 3,300BC - so it most certainly does not apply to Maori.

"The Stone Age began about 2.6 million years ago, when researchers found the earliest evidence of humans using stone tools, and lasted until about 3,300 B.C. when the Bronze Age began. It is typically broken into three distinct periods: the Paleolithic Period, Mesolithic Period and Neolithic Period"



While agreeing with you on the historical truth of your point re when the ‘stone age’ was, nobody ever contended that maori were living in the actual ‘stone age’. Unless European ships were travelling through a portal in time, there would be no way to get back from recent centuries to the ‘stone age’.
The intention was to describe the pre-contact way of life with its closest historical parallels: a society of people using stone tools and living a rudimentary and fairly brief existence.

[davflaws]

While agreeing with you on the historical truth of your point re when the ‘stone age’ was, nobody ever contended that maori were living in the actual ‘stone age’. Unless European ships were travelling through a portal in time, there would be no way to get back from recent centuries to the ‘stone age’.
The intention was to describe the pre-contact way of life with its closest historical parallels: a society of people using stone tools and living a rudimentary and fairly brief existence.

There is no problem with describing Maori at the time of first contact as "stone age culture".

The problem arises when you conflate first contact with colonisation. If as you claim, "Colonisation’ begins when new tools, weapons, foodstuffs, methods etc are introduced to new areas, the whole world is colonised and the term has been broadened beyond any useful meaaning

I plead guilty to arrogant prtickery on occassion, so I am unashamed to advise you: Drop your fantasies about my educational history and political background, and do some reading about the difference between a process by which European tools, weapons, food stuffs, methods etc began to be introduced to and adopted by the Maori world, and the loss of land, political, social and military hegemony as a result of deliberate policy decisions by a foreign power which constitute "colonisation".

From a Maori viewpoint, the former process had almost exclusively good results, but the latter had quite mixed results. Both parties benefitted from the former process, Maori aguably more than the small number of Europeans involved. Settlers and their descendants benefitted from the latter markedly and significantly more than Maori. That difference is reflected in the current socioeconomic status of the two groups.

I am plaeased that you are now conceding (albeit grudgingly), that colonisation did have some ongoing deletorious effects. Does this concession extend to Maori health and life expectancy?

[Balance]

Hope ACT makes getting rid of all the special BS & Ardern introduced privileges accorded to Maori and co-governance a bottom line policy to be in coalition with National - because National is too soft to be so upfront about this need.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/498179/election-2023-act-launches-campaign-with-vow-to-end-co-governance

Meanwhile, note how the coverage of ACT’s campaign launch by the Herald & Stuff is all about the hecklers rather than ACT’s policies?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300972557/watch-david-seymours-act-party-relaunch-disrupted-by-persistent-heckler

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-co-governance-opposition-takes-centre-stage-at-act-campaign-launch/GGGOPADMPNGMXLBKXYISAFJROU/



Trust all NZers notice the bias because it is high time that the leftist msm gets their comeuppance - so addicted are they to woke and Ardern’s bribes via the media fund. A curse on them and their future.

[Logen Ninefingers]

There is no problem with describing Maori at the time of first contact as "stone age culture".

The problem arises when you conflate first contact with colonisation. If as you claim, "Colonisation’ begins when new tools, weapons, foodstuffs, methods etc are introduced to new areas, the whole world is colonised and the term has been broadened beyond any useful meaaning

I plead guilty to arrogant prtickery on occassion, so I am unashamed to advise you: Drop your fantasies about my educational history and political background, and do some reading about the difference between a process by which European tools, weapons, food stuffs, methods etc began to be introduced to and adopted by the Maori world, and the loss of land, political, social and military hegemony as a result of deliberate policy decisions by a foreign power which constitute "colonisation".

From a Maori viewpoint, the former process had almost exclusively good results, but the latter had quite mixed results. Both parties benefitted from the former process, Maori aguably more than the small number of Europeans involved. Settlers and their descendants benefitted from the latter markedly and significantly more than Maori. That difference is reflected in the current socioeconomic status of the two groups.

I am plaeased that you are now conceding (albeit grudgingly), that colonisation did have some ongoing deletorious effects. Does this concession extend to Maori health and life expectancy?



'If as you claim, "Colonisation’ begins when new tools, weapons, foodstuffs, methods etc are introduced to new areas, the whole world is colonised and the term has been broadened beyond any useful meaaning'

If you genuinely wish to have an intelligent debate (or even a discussion) on this point, then I am perfectly willing to do so.

If we broaden 'colonisation' to perhaps include 'the point at which alien peoples come to live amongst as' (and this occurs from the point of 'contact' onwards), then I would contend that 'colonisation' is a global phenomenon. I do think 'cultural colonisation' is as much a matter of historical fact as any of the other events we agree occured in human history.

We may look at a country like Japan and say that colonisation has not been a 'thing' that has happened there. But then if we look at the 'granular spread sheets' of the matter, we find that General Douglas MacArthur was at one time the virtual dictator of Japan, and that under his guiding hand 'modern Japan' was created:

'He was a general’s general, tough, unrelenting, a man who embraced the role history thrust on him. He was also haughty and controversial, traits that would lead to his eventual downfall. General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers (SCAP), arrived in Japan on August 30, 1945 to oversee the ceremony formally marking its surrender. His mission was to organize a postwar Japanese government, with two primary goals: eliminating Japan’s war potential, and turning it into a Western-style nation with a pro-American orientation.

MacArthur had full authority, almost unlimited power, to accomplish these tasks. As interim leader of Japan from Japan from 1945-48, he was responsible for confirming and enforcing sentences for Japan’s war criminals and oversaw the rebuilding of the country, including drafting the country’s new constitution and implementing a major land reform initiative.'

You can say that a country retains all of it's traditions and culture from the point of contact onwards, unless what you describe as 'colonisation' (using your definition of the term) occurs, but again - in Japan this is not evidently the case when we 'drill down'. We may consider Ramen to be that 'most Japanese' of culinary delights but:

'The origin of ramen is traced back to Yokohama Chinatown in the early 20th century. The word "ramen" is a Japanese borrowing of the Chinese word 拉麵 (lāmiàn), meaning 'pulled noodles'. The dish evolved from southern Chinese noodle dishes, reflecting the demographics of Chinese settlers in Yokohama. Ramen gained popularity in Japan, especially during food shortages following World War II. In 1958, instant noodles were invented by Momofuku Ando, further popularizing the dish. Today, ramen is a cultural icon in Japan, with many regional varieties and a wide range of toppings.'

What about the Japanese and their ongoing eating of whale meat? That is a cultural practice that may have declined and then died out, if not for the intervention of MacArthur:

General Douglas MacArthur encouraged the surrendered Japan to continue whaling in order to provide a cheap source of meat to starving people (and millions of dollars in oil for the US and Europe). The Japanese whaling industry quickly recovered as MacArthur authorized two tankers to be converted into factory ships, the Hashidate Maru and the Nisshin Maru. Whale catchers once again took blue whales, fins, humpbacks and sperm whales in the Antarctic and elsewhere

Other cultural changes & 'colonisations' in Japan have much deeper roots:

Buddhism entered Japan some time during the 6th century CE from the Korean peninsula and China. The transmission of Buddhism through Northeast Asia is generally known as Mahāyāna Buddhism. Over subsequent centuries, the movement of Mahāyāna Buddhism in Japan developed into its own set of distinctive traditions and schools, many of which prevail today both in the country and worldwide. Alongside Shintō, Buddhist thought continues to influence Japanese societal values and attitudes.

---

It seems that in the world we live in, 'colonisation' is defined as a process that the British Empire 'inflicted' on other peoples.
And slavery is treated as something that was invented by Europeans and broke out spontaneously in America as well.

How many people have a real grasp of human history, and just how common (and prolonged) things that are judged to be 'evil' have been with us?

---

As regards the effects of colonisation on health and longevity, I've written previous posts on how I believe Maori would have fared under other scenarios, of which there are three.
1/ Maori continued to exist in their traditional tribal groupings, in isolation. We know this to be an impossibility as contact would have eventually occured even if early European explorers had not found New Zealand.
2/ 'Contact' occured, but Maori were somehow co-operate and co-ordinate between the various Iwi groupings to strictly contain and control how this contact was regulated*, to the point that all their laws and customs applied in this land and any 'alien people who came to live amongst them' were limited in number and had to abide by said Maori laws. This would be an alternate reality where Maori Iwi continued to live as their own individual 'nation states', and perhaps internicine war between the various tribes would continue on until Maori were able to 'unite' (how would this have been achieved though? One group conquering all others would have laid the groundwork for future internal conflict) and form some sort of homogenous - perhaps federated - state. Or New Zealand remained splintered as various small 'countries' split on tribal lines.
3/ Events occured as they have.**

I cannot honestly & intellectually say to you that Maori health and longevity would be much, much better under either of the first two scenarios. The only concession I can make to you is that there appears to often be good and bad in any human process.



*Maori were already admitting in 1840, at the time of the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi, that they had lost control of the process of 'alien peoples coming to live amongst us':

Tāmati Wāka Nene said to the chiefs:

"Some of you tell Hobson to go. But that's not going to solve our difficulties. We have already sold so much land here in the north. We have no way of controlling the Europeans who have settled on it. I'm amazed to hear you telling him to go! Why didn't you tell the traders and grog-sellers to go years ago? There are too many Europeans here now and there are children that unite our races."


**There is an alternate reality where France is the 'physical' coloniser:

Hōne Heke said (to Hobson):

"Governor, you should stay with us and be like a father. If you go away then the French or the rum sellers will take us Maori over. How can we know what the future will bring? If you stay, we can be 'all as one' with you and the missionaries."

[moka]

There is no problem with describing Maori at the time of first contact as "stone age culture".

The problem arises when you conflate first contact with colonisation. If as you claim, "Colonisation’ begins when new tools, weapons, foodstuffs, methods etc are introduced to new areas, the whole world is colonised and the term has been broadened beyond any useful meaaning

I plead guilty to arrogant prtickery on occassion, so I am unashamed to advise you: Drop your fantasies about my educational history and political background, and do some reading about the difference between a process by which European tools, weapons, food stuffs, methods etc began to be introduced to and adopted by the Maori world, and the loss of land, political, social and military hegemony as a result of deliberate policy decisions by a foreign power which constitute "colonisation".

From a Maori viewpoint, the former process had almost exclusively good results, but the latter had quite mixed results. Both parties benefitted from the former process, Maori aguably more than the small number of Europeans involved. Settlers and their descendants benefitted from the latter markedly and significantly more than Maori. That difference is reflected in the current socioeconomic status of the two groups.

I am plaeased that you are now conceding (albeit grudgingly), that colonisation did have some ongoing deletorious effects. Does this concession extend to Maori health and life expectancy?

Davflaws, thanks for the clear definition of colonisation - the loss of land, political, social and military hegemony as a result of deliberate policy decisions by a foreign power which constitute "colonisation".

[moka]

'
---

It seems that in the world we live in, 'colonisation' is defined as a process that the British Empire 'inflicted' on other peoples.

Colonisation is an ongoing process in the world and now it is being done by corporations rather than countries to impose western values and capitalism on other countries though globalisation and corporatism. Western countries especially Britain support this because it creates wealth for them. It does create poverty for the indigenous people in countries like El Salvador and Honduras.

This is detailed in the book Silent Coup: How Corporations Overthrew Democracy by Claire Provost and Matt Kennard.

As European empires crumbled in the 20th century, the power structures that had dominated the world for centuries were up for renegotiation. Yet instead of a rebirth for democracy, what emerged was a silent coup against its very core – namely, the unstoppable rise of global corporate power.
The book provides an explosive guide to the rise of a corporate empire that now dictates how resources are allocated, how territories are governed, and how justice is defined.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Coup-Corporations-Overthrew-Democracy/dp/1350269980
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Coup-Corporations-Overthrew-Democracy/dp/1350269980)
When Silent Coup’s findings are situated within a broader political analysis, it becomes evident how these international networks give rise to a twenty-first-century imperialism or neo-colonialism: developing nations are exploited by private organisations operating within the international political framework.

https://www.bilaterals.org/?silent-coup-how-corporations
(https://www.bilaterals.org/?silent-coup-how-corporations)
Colonisation - the loss of land, political, social and military hegemony as a result of deliberate policy decisions by a foreign power which constitute "colonisation".

Now it is also known as neoliberalism which is a political and economic philosophy that emphasizes free trade, deregulation, globalization. Neoliberalism is related to laissez-faire economics, which prescribes a minimal amount of government interference in the economic issues of individuals and society.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Davflaws, thanks for the clear definition of colonisation - the loss of land, political, social and military hegemony as a result of deliberate policy decisions by a foreign power which constitute "colonisation".

Well that definition is very interesting indeed. Exactly how far away does the ‘foreign power’ have to be? On the other side of a mountain range? Across a body of water between two islands? 1,000 kms of distance?

Another definition here:
‘The act of taking control of an area or a country that is not your own, especially using force, and sending people from your own country to live there.’

And again, in a New Zealand context different Iwi functioned as their own nation states. Once we get past a notion of Maori as a being homogenous politically and socially - a completely artificial construct - and start looking at them as individual groupings competing with each other for land and resources, then we arrive at a true understanding about the nature of human affairs. There is something universal about the way humans have conducted themselves throughout history. Life itself is a story of struggle for survival.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Colonisation is an ongoing process in the world and now it is being done by corporations rather than countries to impose western values and capitalism on other countries though globalisation and corporatism. Western countries especially Britain support this because it creates wealth for them. It does create poverty for the indigenous people in countries like El Salvador and Honduras.

This is detailed in the book Silent Coup: How Corporations Overthrew Democracy by Claire Provost and Matt Kennard.

As European empires crumbled in the 20th century, the power structures that had dominated the world for centuries were up for renegotiation. Yet instead of a rebirth for democracy, what emerged was a silent coup against its very core – namely, the unstoppable rise of global corporate power.
The book provides an explosive guide to the rise of a corporate empire that now dictates how resources are allocated, how territories are governed, and how justice is defined.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Coup-Corporations-Overthrew-Democracy/dp/1350269980
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Coup-Corporations-Overthrew-Democracy/dp/1350269980)
When Silent Coup’s findings are situated within a broader political analysis, it becomes evident how these international networks give rise to a twenty-first-century imperialism or neo-colonialism: developing nations are exploited by private organisations operating within the international political framework.

https://www.bilaterals.org/?silent-coup-how-corporations
(https://www.bilaterals.org/?silent-coup-how-corporations)
Colonisation - the loss of land, political, social and military hegemony as a result of deliberate policy decisions by a foreign power which constitute "colonisation".

Now it is also known as neoliberalism which is a political and economic philosophy that emphasizes free trade, deregulation, globalization. Neoliberalism is related to laissez-faire economics, which prescribes a minimal amount of government interference in the economic issues of individuals and society.

No, I don’t agree that ‘colonialism’ and ‘neoliberalism’ are the same things, with only the terminology changing over time.
When I gave the definition of neoliberalism as simply meaning less government regulation & more private ownership, some wag came back with an even simpler definition: ‘rich people doing whatever they want’.

Yet that definition doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. You can regulate businesses less, but they are still regulated. They cannot do whatever they want. Businesses must pay tax, they must collect GST on behalf of the government, they must abide by health and safety laws. If they wish to manufacture and store hazardous chemicals they must adhere to certain regulations and submit to mandatory inspections. They have to pay duties and taxes and clear their goods with the NZ Customs Service if they are an importer and / or exporter. I am using examples from my personal experience, but I am only scratching the surface.

The Left-wing mind just over-simplifies real life, stripping out complexity and reducing everything to a childs tale of good vs evil.

Free trade has been around since the dawn of time. It is not something that was recently cooked up by ‘neoliberals’. This word ‘neoliberal’ is just a hugely loaded term now. If you look at the pure definition of what it means, it is utterly unremarkable. But there is some power about this word that has Leftists in its thrall: they throw it into a conversation like a hand grenade. I wonder if it’s the ‘neo’ part, maybe they hope to invoke - or invoke in their own minds - ‘neo-nazi’.

[Azz]

AGAIN:

BlackPeter: stop stalking me round the site. And stop giving me negative Reputation, you just did another you idiot. You have faulty impulse control, and anger management issues, I suggest you get professional help.

[BlackPeter]

AGAIN:

BlackPeter: stop stalking me round the site. And stop giving me negative Reputation, you just did another you idiot. You have faulty impulse control, and anger management issues, I suggest you get professional help.


Sigh ...

look Azz, I tend to give negative reputation for posts which attack other posters (instead of discussing a certain subject) and I tend to give negative reputation for posts spreading already debunked lies (aka conspiracy theories).

If you feel that you get too much negative rep, than maybe this is the reason.

I am sure (no, that's actually not true), but I hope you are able to find better and more positive ways to contribute to this forum. :) ;

[Azz]

Sigh ...

look Azz, I tend to give negative reputation for posts which attack other posters (instead of discussing a certain subject) and I tend to give negative reputation for posts spreading already debunked lies (aka conspiracy theories).

If you feel that you get too much negative rep, than maybe this is the reason.

I am sure (no, that's actually not true), but I hope you are able to find better and more positive ways to contribute to this forum. :) ;

You are a narcissistic stalker.

[causecelebre]

Sigh ...

look Azz, I tend to give negative reputation for posts which attack other posters (instead of discussing a certain subject) and I tend to give negative reputation for posts spreading already debunked lies (aka conspiracy theories).

If you feel that you get too much negative rep, than maybe this is the reason.

I am sure (no, that's actually not true), but I hope you are able to find better and more positive ways to contribute to this forum. :) ;

Sounds like you are channeling your inner Disinformation Project mate.

[moka]

No, I don’t agree that ‘colonialism’ and ‘neoliberalism’ are the same things, with only the terminology changing over time.
When I gave the definition of neoliberalism as simply meaning less government regulation & more private ownership, some wag came back with an even simpler definition: ‘rich people doing whatever they want’.
Neoliberalism = rich people doing what they want is a good definition.

Neoliberalism = economic freedom, less regulation from government.

Neoliberalism can be interpreted either as a utopian project to realize a theoretical design for the reorganization of international capitalism (free trade, free markets, property rights etc) or a political project to reestablish the conditions for capital accumulation and to restore the power of economic elites. Neoliberalism has been very successful in restoring or in some cases creating the power of an economic elite. The theoretical utopianism has worked as a system of justification and legitimisation of whatever needed to be done to achieve this goal.

One condition of post-war settlement in almost all countries was the economic power of the upper classes be restrained and that labour be accorded a much labour share of the pie. When growth collapsed in the 1970s, when real interest rates went negative and paltry dividends and profits were the norm, then the upper classes felt threated. In the US the control of wealth (as opposed to income) by the top 1% had remained fairly stable over throughout the 20th century. But in the 1970s it plunged precipitously as asset values (stocks, property, savings) collapsed. The upper classes had to move decisively if they were to protect themselves from political and economic annihilation. And so we had Thatcher and Reagan pushing neoliberalism.

[Panda-NZ-]

Neoliberalism = rich people doing what they want is a good definition.

Neoliberalism = economic freedom, less regulation from government.

Neoliberalism can be interpreted either as a utopian project to realize a theoretical design for the reorganization of international capitalism (free trade, free markets, property rights etc) or a political project to reestablish the conditions for capital accumulation and to restore the power of economic elites.( Neoliberalism has been very successful in restoring or in some cases creating the power of an economic elite. The theoretical utopianism has worked as a system of justification and legitimisation of whatever needed to be done to achieve this goal.

One condition of post-war settlement in almost all countries was the economic power of the upper classes be restrained and that labour be accorded a much labour share of the pie. When growth collapsed in the 1970s, when real interest rates went negative and paltry dividends and profits were the norm, then the upper classes felt threated. In the US the control of wealth (as opposed to income) by the top 1% had remained fairly stable over throughout the 20th century. But in the 1970s it plunged precipitously as asset values (stocks, property, savings) collapsed. The upper classes had to move decisively if they were to protect themselves from political and economic annihilation. And so we had Thatcher and Reagan pushing neoliberalism.

Fear of communism was a large part of the reason why the rich tolerated high tax rates. There was an economic alternative out there (not a very good one... ghost cities and state run turnip farms).

Now they can get away with much more. They've pitted nations against each other in a "manufactured" competition on tax rates and regulation, the way to overcome it is global agreement among developed countries like Biden's minimum tax rate. If they want to move outside the "club" then they can enjoy having no protection for their assets.

[moka]

No, I don’t agree that ‘colonialism’ and ‘neoliberalism’ are the same things, with only the terminology changing over time.

The first experiment with neoliberal state formation occurred in Chile after Pinochet’s coup in 1973. The coup, against the democratically elected government was promoted by business elites threatened by Allende’s drive towards socialism. It was backed by US corporations, the CIA, and US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. It violently repressed all the social movements and political organisations of the left e.g. community health centres. The labour market was freed from regulatory or institutional restraints (trade union power.) Economists working with the IMF restructured the economy according to neoliberal theories. They reversed nationalization and privatised public assets, opened up natural resources (fisheries, timber etc) to private unregulated exploitation, privatised social security, facilitated foreign direct investment and freer trade.

Sounds like colonialism to me.

[blackcap]

Sounds like you are channeling your inner Disinformation Project mate.

He certainly would be in good company with Kate Hannah and Sanjana.

Thankfully the Disinformation Project has lost its power and mandate after being caught pretty much spreading disinformation.

https://thedisinfoproject.org/about-us/our-people/

[BlackPeter]

He certainly would be in good company with Kate Hannah and Sanjana.

Thankfully the Disinformation Project has lost its power and mandate after being caught pretty much spreading disinformation.

https://thedisinfoproject.org/about-us/our-people/

I have neither a view on the project nor on the people you are referring to, but I find it interesting that the only people I came across so far trashing the disinformation project seem to be either conspiracy theorists, trolls, or their supporters.

Just based on this observation it appears it is a good project ... it seems to hit the right crowd.

[blackcap]

I have neither a view on the project nor on the people you are referring to, but I find it interesting that the only people I came across so far trashing the disinformation project seem to be either conspiracy theorists, trolls, or their supporters.

Just based on this observation it appears it is a good project ... it seems to hit the right crowd.

That may be true to a point, but when they go out and say that you need to watch out for girls with braided hair and woman that do knitting and arts.... that was very amusing.

Anyway, I see this is the ACT thread. Not going to vote for them, although I do align with them the best in the tv votemeter thing. Followed closely by Nats and NZ first. Probably end up voting for Winston this time around. But have not made up my mind yet.

[Azz]

I have neither a view on the project nor on the people you are referring to, but I find it interesting that the only people I came across so far trashing the disinformation project seem to be either conspiracy theorists, trolls, or their supporters.

Just based on this observation it appears it is a good project ... it seems to hit the right crowd.

You're by far the biggest troll on this site.

[justakiwi]

No he isn't. Not by a long shot.


You're by far the biggest troll on this site.

[Azz]

No he isn't. Not by a long shot.

Well it's all subjective then isn't it. So maybe he should shut up and stop calling people trolls. Anyone with a different opinion from him he calls a troll. To me this behaviour of his is the ultimate in trolling. You can disagree if you like.

[Azz]

The hypocrisy of BlackPeter on display here, within just a few posts in this thread:


I tend to give negative reputation for posts which attack other posters (instead of discussing a certain subject)


I find it interesting that the only people I came across so far trashing the disinformation project seem to be either conspiracy theorists, trolls, or their supporters.

[moka]

He certainly would be in good company with Kate Hannah and Sanjana.

Thankfully the Disinformation Project has lost its power and mandate after being caught pretty much spreading disinformation.

https://thedisinfoproject.org/about-us/our-people/Big brothers are watching you according to the Disinformation Project

12 September 2023: Independent research group The Disinformation Project is concerned about the use of invasive user tracking and micro-targeting technology by four major political parties ahead of the 2023 General Election. The group has discovered that the official websites of Labour, National, ACT, and the Green Party use Facebook Pixel without disclosure or user consent, to track all visitors. Pixel-tracking technology, like Facebook Pixel, follows a website’s visitors across other websites and even mobile apps, recording and sharing their information, interests, and behaviour.

https://thedisinfoproject.org/resources/

[justakiwi]

I couldn't care less. I have nothing to hide, no secrets, no agenda, so if they want to track me, they can be my guest. My own sister, who, by the way is reasonably intelligent, was trying to convince me the other day, that my cell phone is audio recording everything I say, even when it is turned off! She 100% believes this.

This nonsense is getting beyond ridiculous.




Big brothers are watching you according to the Disinformation Project

12 September 2023: Independent research group The Disinformation Project is concerned about the use of invasive user tracking and micro-targeting technology by four major political parties ahead of the 2023 General Election. The group has discovered that the official websites of Labour, National, ACT, and the Green Party use Facebook Pixel without disclosure or user consent, to track all visitors. Pixel-tracking technology, like Facebook Pixel, follows a website’s visitors across other websites and even mobile apps, recording and sharing their information, interests, and behaviour.

https://thedisinfoproject.org/resources/

[Aaron]

My own sister, who, by the way is reasonably intelligent, was trying to convince me the other day, that my cell phone is audio recording everything I say, even when it is turned off! She 100% believes this.

This nonsense is getting beyond ridiculous.

She might be partly right based on a quick google search.

https://us.norton.com/blog/how-to/is-my-phone-listening-to-me#:~:text=Yes%2C%20here's%20why%20and%20how%20to% 20stop%20it,-Clare%20Stouffer&text=If%20you%20have%20a%20smartphone,if%20you%20g ive%20it%20permission.

https://allaboutcookies.org/stop-your-phone-from-listening

If governments collected the data and built profiles that the data collection companies like facebook and google do there would be public outrage.

Re Neo liberalism did the Chile experiment work? I thought it was a reasonably well-developed nation although Pinochet has been out of the picture for a while.

I thought Mussolini had said that Fascism was the merger of power between the State and Corporations but this may not have been strictly correct or applicable in this day and age.

https://politicalresearch.org/2005/01/12/mussolini-corporate-state

[justakiwi]

That's different. It is common knowledge that in this day and age, a lot of what our devices do to "assist" us, requires collection of our browsing data etc. If we want to use Siri for example, we need to allow access to certain things. We can very easily turn that stuff off however.

My sister is talking about governments - yep, even ours - having hidden agendas, and eavesdropping on every conversation we have - even when our phones are turned off. Yeah right. It boggles my mind how so many people right now, have crazy ideas about secret agendas, humans being controlled by governments blah blah blah. It is bull****. Unless perhaps you live in Russia or China, but even then, I have my doubts.

Life is too short for these conspiracy theories. We have enough stress in our lives without buying into that crap.


She might be partly right based on a quick google search.

https://us.norton.com/blog/how-to/is-my-phone-listening-to-me#:~:text=Yes%2C%20here's%20why%20and%20how%20to% 20stop%20it,-Clare%20Stouffer&text=If%20you%20have%20a%20smartphone,if%20you%20g ive%20it%20permission.

https://allaboutcookies.org/stop-your-phone-from-listening

If governments collected the data and built profiles that the data collection companies like facebook and google do there would be public outrage.

Re Neo liberalism did the Chile experiment work? I thought it was a reasonably well-developed nation although Pinochet has been out of the picture for a while.

I thought Mussolini had said that Fascism was the merger of power between the State and Corporations but this may not have been strictly correct or applicable in this day and age.

https://politicalresearch.org/2005/01/12/mussolini-corporate-state

[moka]

If governments collected the data and built profiles that the data collection companies like facebook and google do there would be public outrage. Yes there would be.

Re Neo liberalism did the Chile experiment work? I thought it was a reasonably well-developed nation although Pinochet has been out of the picture for a while.

A good question did the Chile experiment work. It depends on whether you are in the top 1% or not.

The economic policies of the Popular Unity Government in the early 1970s, which included nationalization of industries and land reform, led to a decline in domestic food production and a drastic reduction in food for the masses of the population. In 1975, the GDP fell by 13 percent, industrial production plunged by 27 percent, and unemployment increased to 20 percent. Additionally, inflation reached 375 percent in 1974, the highest rate in the world and almost twice the top level under Allende.

After a recession in 1975, the economy expanded from 1977 to 1980 with high growth rates, making Chile a showcase for monetarists and economic liberals. During the 1980s, Chile's economy experienced both growth and recession. In 1982, Chile slid into a severe recession that lasted more than two years, which was the second deep economic recession in eight years. Chile experienced the strongest economic growth of all countries in the region during the 1980s.

The 1990s were a period of vigorous and unprecedented expansion, with average annual growth of 7.2%.
The expansion of certain industries, such as the mining industry, has contributed to the growth of the Chilean economy. Chile's GDP per capita is the highest in the region at USD 14,772, but it also has high levels of inequality and informality. Inequality is a persistent challenge for Chile, with high levels of income inequality. Chile has the second-highest level of income inequality in the OECD. Almost half of Chile's wealth, 49.6 percent, is held by the top one percent, while the bottom 50 percent has a negative wealth.

[winner69]

Eastonia apparently has a centralised government info platform ……and Estonia has became a model for digital democracy has created economic opportunities for growth and resiliency.

This guy says something for NZ to aspire to

“ We need an aspirational vision from our politicians as we approach the elections”

https://garymersham.substack.com/p/we-need-an-aspirational-vision-from

[Azz]

That's different. It is common knowledge that in this day and age, a lot of what our devices do to "assist" us, requires collection of our browsing data etc. If we want to use Siri for example, we need to allow access to certain things. We can very easily turn that stuff off however.

My sister is talking about governments - yep, even ours - having hidden agendas, and eavesdropping on every conversation we have - even when our phones are turned off. Yeah right. It boggles my mind how so many people right now, have crazy ideas about secret agendas, humans being controlled by governments blah blah blah. It is bull****. Unless perhaps you live in Russia or China, but even then, I have my doubts.

Life is too short for these conspiracy theories. We have enough stress in our lives without buying into that crap.

Your phone is an internet-connected microphone and camera(s). There have been a number of hacks that utilize those things, and some of those hacks have been by governments or government agencies. This also applies to non-phone devices with similar capabilities. Re "off" for various devices, there are differing types of "off", some of which have internet access and full capability either from the outset or after a received command.

[moka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElSdPYQFHHE
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElSdPYQFHHE)
DAVID SEYMOUR on the VALUES we should have as KIWI's..

David Seymour in this interview says “Well first of all I think in terms of values for the country we need to start being a lot clearer about first of all there is an objective reality and there is universal humanity there's not different world views. There's one world and we're all part of it and we're all humans and we're all equally part of it.”

I don’t think there is much objective reality. Yes, physical objects such as rocks, trees, and buildings exist independently of any individual's perception of them. But I might think that a tree is beautiful or a nuisance and should be removed. Some scientific facts are objective, and although historical events such as wars occurred history can and is rewritten. My perception of a war comes from someone else’s interpretation.

If I was a disabled Maori woman my world view would be very different from David Seymour’s. My world view is that if ACT is elected it will not be good for NZ. David Seymour’s would that it will be great for NZ. It will be good for some people, but not good for all New Zealanders.

I agree we are all humans, but not that we are all equally part of one world. Someone living in their car has a different world view to a person living in a $3m house in a gated community.

[Azz]

Your phone is an internet-connected microphone and camera(s). There have been a number of hacks that utilize those things, and some of those hacks have been by governments or government agencies. This also applies to non-phone devices with similar capabilities. Re "off" for various devices, there are differing types of "off", some of which have internet access and full capability either from the outset or after a received command.

And if you're wondering what would a government do with millions of audio (and video) recordings: whatever they like via very effective bespoke A.I.

[causecelebre]

Big brothers are watching you according to the Disinformation Project

Could you imagine the material they could use if only they made a visit to this forum?! Lol

[Azz]

If I was a disabled Maori woman my world view would be very different from David Seymour’s.

The wheelchair-bound people I've known have all had a view closer to Seymour's than yours: they don't want to be treated any differently; they just want to be able to access the workplace and public areas without the need for help.

[justakiwi]

I understand that. I do what I need to do, to limit the risk, on my own devices. But at the end of the day, we all have a choice. Which is what I told my sister. I suggested that if she is really that worried that the government is trying to control her via her phone, maybe she should stop using it. Pretty sure you can guess what her response was. I honestly do not understand how these conspiracy theorists get sucked into these irrational and completely unsubstantiated beliefs. What boggles my mind even more, is the fact that some of them are smart, intelligent people. I just don’t get it. Maybe some people are just genetically predisposed to being easily manipulated? The irony is that they are worried that governments are joining forces to gain “control” of the human race - but they have zero insight into the fact that they have been manipulated into believing these BS theories.


Your phone is an internet-connected microphone and camera(s). There have been a number of hacks that utilize those things, and some of those hacks have been by governments or government agencies. This also applies to non-phone devices with similar capabilities. Re "off" for various devices, there are differing types of "off", some of which have internet access and full capability either from the outset or after a received command.

[Azz]

I understand that. I do what I need to do, to limit the risk, on my own devices. But at the end of the day, we all have a choice. Which is what I told my sister. I suggested that if she is really that worried that the government is trying to control her via her phone, maybe she should stop using it. Pretty sure you can guess what her response was. I honestly do not understand how these conspiracy theorists get sucked into these irrational and completely unsubstantiated beliefs. What boggles my mind even more, is the fact that some of them are smart, intelligent people. I just don’t get it. Maybe some people are just genetically predisposed to being easily manipulated? The irony is that they are worried that governments are joining forces to gain “control” of the human race - but they have zero insight into the fact that they have been manipulated into believing these BS theories.

Why do you think Edward Snowden had to flee his country? Because the US government really was (and likely still is) illegally spying on its citizens, and he blew the whistle on it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElSdPYQFHHE
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElSdPYQFHHE)
DAVID SEYMOUR on the VALUES we should have as KIWI's..

David Seymour in this interview says “Well first of all I think in terms of values for the country we need to start being a lot clearer about first of all there is an objective reality and there is universal humanity there's not different world views. There's one world and we're all part of it and we're all humans and we're all equally part of it.”

I don’t think there is much objective reality. Yes, physical objects such as rocks, trees, and buildings exist independently of any individual's perception of them. But I might think that a tree is beautiful or a nuisance and should be removed. Some scientific facts are objective, and although historical events such as wars occurred history can and is rewritten. My perception of a war comes from someone else’s interpretation.

If I was a disabled Maori woman my world view would be very different from David Seymour’s. My world view is that if ACT is elected it will not be good for NZ. David Seymour’s would that it will be great for NZ. It will be good for some people, but not good for all New Zealanders.

I agree we are all humans, but not that we are all equally part of one world. Someone living in their car has a different world view to a person living in a $3m house in a gated community.

Well my world view is that if Labour is re-elected it will not be good for NZ. Chris Hipkins would say that it will be great for NZ. It will be good for some people, but not good for all New Zealanders.

[justakiwi]

True, but I don’t live in the US and as I said, I have nothing to hide, no agenda, and literally nothing that any government would be even remotely interested in. What is it that governments are supposed to be looking for? How exactly are they attempting to “gain control over us?” I can’t speak for the US government, but the idea that global governments are banding together to “take control” of the human race, is ridiculous.




Why do you think Edward Snowden had to flee his country? Because the US government really was (and likely still is) illegally spying on its citizens, and he blew the whistle on it.

[moka]

Lots of people don’t agree with David Seymour even though he says there's not different world views. Other people are just wrong he reckons.

Disruption and division: Seymour denies using beneficiaries, Māori as political punching bag (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/disruption-and-division-seymour-denies-using-beneficiaries-m%C4%81ori-as-political-punching-bag/ar-AA1gPJGy?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=ffd6b0eff0334691db00ef19ede38a9f&ei=93)

The political discourse is divided but Seymour says that's nothing to do with him.
"I don't take responsibility for the actions of other people that are wrong."
But he did of course double down on his co-governance schtick and pitched his referendum on the Treaty.
"We all matter," he said. "This country deserves a say on what the Treaty means."
He also pedalled Don Brash lines.
"Only one party stands on this principle of one Kiwi, one vote," Seymour said.
He also suggested people are being forced to use te reo Māori.
"The way to turn a treasure into a form of torture is to impose it on people by force, perhaps with the very best of intentions."
Seymour went for broke on the race debate whipping it up as the one issue on which to launch his campaign.