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minimoke
10-09-2017, 01:06 PM
10 things on the list.

Here's one. Take the first steps to clean up our rivers and lakes by holding a Clean Waterways Summit of all key stakeholder.

So, once again evidence of no ideas and government by committee.

tim23
10-09-2017, 01:28 PM
I think its called consultation I recall National holding a jobs summit when newly elected but I bet you didn't accuse them of government by committee?
10 things on the list.

Here's one. Take the first steps to clean up our rivers and lakes by holding a Clean Waterways Summit of all key stakeholder.

So, once again evidence of no ideas and government by committee.

minimoke
10-09-2017, 01:59 PM
I think its called consultation I recall National holding a jobs summit when newly elected but I bet you didn't accuse them of government by committee?
The Job Summit was a reaction to the worst economic downturn in living memory. National admitted it was in uncharterd waters. But it was after they had already introduced a ReStart package to lessen the financial shock of unexpected redundancy; passed legislation to introduce personal tax reductionson 1 April; introduced a major bill to reform the Resource Management Act, to remove some of the barriers to new development and to reduce costs and compliance for Kiwi businesses and families; announced a package of tax changes to lighten the load on small and medium-sized businesses, to ease cash flow for all businesses and reduce compliance costs; fast-tracked more than half a billion dollars of Government infrastructure projects, including new schools, the Kopu Bridge and new state houses.

So National already had ideas and were acting on them. The Summit was a top-up

tim23
10-09-2017, 02:58 PM
But Labour have a history of great ideas; Kiwisaver, Kiwibank, WFF and it goes on...
The Job Summit was a reaction to the worst economic downturn in living memory. National admitted it was in uncharterd waters. But it was after they had already introduced a ReStart package to lessen the financial shock of unexpected redundancy; passed legislation to introduce personal tax reductionson 1 April; introduced a major bill to reform the Resource Management Act, to remove some of the barriers to new development and to reduce costs and compliance for Kiwi businesses and families; announced a package of tax changes to lighten the load on small and medium-sized businesses, to ease cash flow for all businesses and reduce compliance costs; fast-tracked more than half a billion dollars of Government infrastructure projects, including new schools, the Kopu Bridge and new state houses.

So National already had ideas and were acting on them. The Summit was a top-up

jonu
10-09-2017, 05:20 PM
But Labour have a history of great ideas; Kiwisaver, Kiwibank, WFF and it goes on...

But where are they now Tim? After 3 terms in opposition you'd hope they had more than the easily pronounced wish list. How the hell are they going to deliver them? And especially in regards to tax...don't give me a "trust us"....I don't. Tell what the real agenda is and let me vote on it.

Jacinda is a hell of a communicator...I'll give her that. But she is also patronising and simplistic. Articulate fools scare the crap out of me.

tim23
10-09-2017, 05:46 PM
Shes not patronising atall that's the domain of the National party - do you not recognise the wonderful things Labour have given us?
But where are they now Tim? After 3 terms in opposition you'd hope they had more than the easily pronounced wish list. How the hell are they going to deliver them? And especially in regards to tax...don't give me a "trust us"....I don't. Tell what the real agenda is and let me vote on it.

Jacinda is a hell of a communicator...I'll give her that. But she is also patronising and simplistic. Articulate fools scare the crap out of me.

jonu
10-09-2017, 06:03 PM
Shes not patronising atall that's the domain of the National party - do you not recognise the wonderful things Labour have given us?

Your answer is patronising in itself Tim. What Labour has done years ago is not what I would vote for in 2017. Micky Savage isn't around any more is he? If he looked at the Labour Party of today he would be asking where the workers have gone? The only people I can think of that he would be comfortable with would be Greg and Damien O'Connor. Damien O'Connor is something of a pariah in the Labour caucus...not liberal enough on social issues

tim23
10-09-2017, 06:17 PM
Actually the things I was thinking about happened during the last Labour government and that was only 9 years back and maybe 2 weeks ahead?!
Your answer is patronising in itself Tim. What Labour has done years ago is not what I would vote for in 2017. Micky Savage isn't around any more is he? If he looked at the Labour Party of today he would be asking where the workers have gone? The only people I can think of that he would be comfortable with would be Greg and Damien O'Connor. Damien O'Connor is something of a pariah in the Labour caucus...not liberal enough on social issues

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 06:54 PM
HIT THE GROUND RUNNING :t_up:
LABOUR'S 100-DAY PLAN IN FULL:
* Make the first year of tertiary education or training fees free and increase student allowances and living cost loans by $50 a week from January 1, 2018

Ad Feedback (http://stuff.co.nz/about-stuff/advertising-feedback/?pos=storybody&adsize=300x250&area=onl.stuff.national/politics)



* Pass the Healthy Homes Guarantee Bill
* Ban overseas speculators from buying existing residential properties
* Stop the sell-off of state houses
* Legislate to pass the Families Package, including the Winter Fuel Payment, Best Start and increases to Paid Parental Leave, to take effect from 1 July 2018. The families package replaces National's April1 tax cuts.
* Introduce legislation to set a child poverty reduction target
* Resume contributions to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund
* Set up a Ministerial Inquiry on mental health
* Hold a Clean Waterways Summit of all key stakeholders
* Increase the minimum wage to $16.50/hour, to take effect 1 April 2018, and introduce legislation new industrial relations legislation

couta1
10-09-2017, 07:05 PM
A hundred days of mourning for those that didn't vote Labour in conjunction with a hundred days of mourning for many who did vote Labour coming to the realization that the Jacindamania was just that, mania.

winner69
10-09-2017, 07:53 PM
A hundred days of mourning for those that didn't vote Labour in conjunction with a hundred days of mourning for many who did vote Labour coming to the realization that the Jacindamania was just that, mania.

A guy called Russell Dalton has an interesting view on democracy -

......democracy suffers because too many active citizens lack the abilities and resources to make meaningful decisions. Some say that democracy is based on “fairy tales” and “folk theory” because of the limitations of the citizenry. Others say voices seemingly yearn for an epistocracy where the knowledgeable decide. Thus, the experts agree: contemporary democracies are suffering; the reason is either too little or too much citizen participation.


Love the fairy tales and folk theory bits

Where NZ is at the moment methinks

Baa_Baa
10-09-2017, 08:03 PM
Actually, the first of the 10 Labour pledges really got me thinking. It's been doing my head in for a few weeks. The other pledges read well and National have a response to most of them, but this one, the tertiary Education funding card really got me.

"Make the first year of tertiary education or training fees free and increase student allowances and living cost loans by $50 a week from January 1, 2018

It might not apply to many here, I wouldn't really know, but as a parent who has teenagers entering Uni shortly, I think National need to nip this one in the bud very quickly or face a tsunami of support for Labour from the under 30 voters, the 18+ voters who are going to Uni, and the poor parents who are or will be subsidising their children's Uni education.

This one policy .. just this one policy of free education, could be a deciding factor. An election only needs one significant differentiator and Labour, this time, have National up against the wall.

C'mon Bill, you have to differentiate and not ignore the student vote and the funders of the students! Do something about tertiary education funding and the ridiculous debt-for-life Student Loans regime.

Or lose a forever National vote, to Labour.

Just one thing can tip the balance.

it's up to Bill to make this right.

BAA

minimoke
10-09-2017, 08:36 PM
"Make the first year of tertiary education or training fees free and increase student allowances and living cost loans by $50 a week from January 1, 2018

It might not apply to many here, I wouldn't really know, but as a parent who has teenagers entering Uni shortly, I think National need to nip this one in the bud very quickly or face a tsunami of support for Labour from the under 30 voters, the 18+ voters who are going to Uni, and the poor parents who are or will be subsidising their children's Uni education.

BAA
I am one of these parents so know how much university costs but I am dead against this idea.

It would be like a slap in the face to show that the primary, intermediate and secondary schools systems had been an abject failure. If there is one lesson kids leaving school should have learnt is that nothing in life is free. A lesson as sure as taxes and death.

Tertiary should not be free and I don't see why I should fund the first year while students "find themselves", party or simply avoid become a NEET.

Had the policy be aimed at the skill shortage lists with a bonding requirement I might be more sympathetic

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 10:06 PM
Actually, the first of the 10 Labour pledges really got me thinking. It's been doing my head in for a few weeks. The other pledges read well and National have a response to most of them, but this one, the tertiary Education funding card really got me.

"Make the first year of tertiary education or training fees free and increase student allowances and living cost loans by $50 a week from January 1, 2018

It might not apply to many here, I wouldn't really know, but as a parent who has teenagers entering Uni shortly, I think National need to nip this one in the bud very quickly or face a tsunami of support for Labour from the under 30 voters, the 18+ voters who are going to Uni, and the poor parents who are or will be subsidising their children's Uni education.

This one policy .. just this one policy of free education, could be a deciding factor. An election only needs one significant differentiator and Labour, this time, have National up against the wall.

C'mon Bill, you have to differentiate and not ignore the student vote and the funders of the students! Do something about tertiary education funding and the ridiculous debt-for-life Student Loans regime.

Or lose a forever National vote, to Labour.

Just one thing can tip the balance.

it's up to Bill to make this right.

BAA

Bill is falling into the ficticous hole with Joyce created by Joyce; thats the biggest vote turner off imo the lying and not admitting they were wrong. Why would one want to vote for a party they can't trust. Joyce has done this in the last three elections as well made up stuff like this.

tim23
11-09-2017, 06:40 PM
Good call hes been 3x lucky maybe his time is up can't think he'd hang around if National lose.

Bill is falling into the ficticous hole with Joyce created by Joyce; thats the biggest vote turner off imo the lying and not admitting they were wrong. Why would one want to vote for a party they can't trust. Joyce has done this in the last three elections as well made up stuff like this.

tim23
11-09-2017, 06:53 PM
Are you implying those voting who lack abilities etc might vote for Labour?
A guy called Russell Dalton has an interesting view on democracy -

......democracy suffers because too many active citizens lack the abilities and resources to make meaningful decisions. Some say that democracy is based on “fairy tales” and “folk theory” because of the limitations of the citizenry. Others say voices seemingly yearn for an epistocracy where the knowledgeable decide. Thus, the experts agree: contemporary democracies are suffering; the reason is either too little or too much citizen participation.


Love the fairy tales and folf theory bits

Where NZ is at the moment methinks

winner69
11-09-2017, 07:51 PM
Are you implying those voting who lack abilities etc might vote for Labour?

seeing Labour appear to have the best 'fairy tales' suppose that's what I'm saying

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 09:43 PM
You had better back that inflammatory statement up w69. You are sounding like a smear foot soldier sent out as cannon fodder.

craic
11-09-2017, 09:49 PM
First 100 days ? Since when have Labour got anyone who can count up to a hundred?

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 10:08 PM
Only need to count to three craic;)
The next Government: 3 options (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96704117/memo-to-tactical-voters-there-are-three-main-trains-running-towards-election-night)

iceman
11-09-2017, 10:36 PM
JT, do you really not see how personally abusive you are with your comments ? You seem be totally unable to respond to anybody without some serious personal abuse. Get a grip on yourself and show a little bit of respect to other people.

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 10:41 PM
No i don't w69 is coming across as smearing ala national style and i personally abhor that below the bar guttersnipe tactic. that national are flinging around. I think its fair for w69 to clarify what s/he really is saying. What does fairy tales mean to you in this context ? A fabricated story intended to deceive is what I'm interpreting and we know for a fact which party is doing that.

blackcap
12-09-2017, 06:24 AM
t w69 is coming across as smearing ala national style .

Winner69 does it with a lot of humour etc. I believe w69 is a green voter (from what I can deduce but certainly not in the National camp) but can see all sides quite well and his/her remarks are funny and give food for thought.

iceman
12-09-2017, 10:58 AM
Winner69 does it with a lot of humour etc. I believe w69 is a green voter (from what I can deduce but certainly not in the National camp) but can see all sides quite well and his/her remarks are funny and give food for thought.

Agreed. I even know he went on a holiday to a far away place this year to enjoy nature at its best. No idea what he votes for though, but suspect he will happily accept Taxinda's winter fuel bonus for fueling up his 4WD on his next venture :-)

Snow Leopard
12-09-2017, 11:21 AM
No i don't w69 is coming across as smearing ala national style and i personally abhor that below the bar guttersnipe tactic. that national are flinging around. I think its fair for w69 to clarify what s/he really is saying. What does fairy tales mean to you in this context ? A fabricated story intended to deceive is what I'm interpreting and we know for a fact which party is doing that.

Joshuatree - it is very difficult to have any respect for you whatsoever while you carry on like this.

You are just coming over as a concussed left-wing fanatic.

I am sure Jacinda would be appalled by your behaviour.

Paper Tiger

winner69
12-09-2017, 12:11 PM
You had better back that inflammatory statement up w69. You are sounding like a smear foot soldier sent out as cannon fodder.

Read the original post JT .......and you might be even more aggrieved / offended if you take that the wrong way

Joshuatree
12-09-2017, 12:54 PM
Read the original post JT .......and you might be even more aggrieved / offended if you take that the wrong way

I see you've changed it thank you. Its now clear and not a smear

jonu
12-09-2017, 01:01 PM
I see you've changed it thank you. Its now clear and not a smear

Winner changed a minor typo JT. Disingenuous answer if I ever saw one

winner69
12-09-2017, 01:05 PM
I see you've changed it thank you. Its now clear and not a smear

Only changed folt to folk - exactly the same as originally posted

Joshuatree
12-09-2017, 01:20 PM
seeing Labour appear to have the best 'fairy tales' suppose that's what I'm saying

Thanks got it. I take things literally . The definition of fairytales I've got "a fabricated story, especially one intended to deceive". If you didn't mean that ,apologies w69.

jonu
12-09-2017, 01:25 PM
Thanks got it. I take things literally . The definition of fairytales I've got "a fabricated story, especially one intended to deceive". If you didn't mean that ,apologies w69.

To smear or not to smear....depends on what side of the bed JT gets out of. First the edit made it clear "and not a smear". Now it still might be if that canny old Winner meant something literal.

Appears to be more smears here than a gynaecologist's clinic.

Joshuatree
12-09-2017, 01:50 PM
Looks like a case of mistaken identity here:confused: If its smearing, no apology; sick of what national have done to bring trump like politicking to this election. Labour so far as i can see are above that. You be the judge of where your moral compass is; its your life.

winner69
12-09-2017, 02:06 PM
Looks like a case of mistaken identity here:confused: If its smearing, no apology; sick of what national have done to bring trump like politicking to this election. Labour so far as i can see are above that. You be the judge of where your moral compass is; its your life.

the thrust of Dalton's view was actually '.....democracy suffers because too many active citizens lack the abilities and resources to make meaningful decisions.'

westerly
12-09-2017, 06:29 PM
the thrust of Dalton's view was actually '.....democracy suffers because too many active citizens lack the abilities and resources to make meaningful decisions.'

Russell Dalton has appeared in 8 Hollywood feature films and has written ,lectured, and researched on the "role of citizens in the political process"
Seems to be a man of many parts but I could tell him why the ordinary person is becoming less involved in the political process in one word.
Boredom,
A new poll every second night, leaders debates on TV . Newspapers have almost surpassed their coverage of rugby and league with political comment , talkback radio hosts who also write political articles in the newspapers. Its boring.
Give us back the old days before TV when politicians had to stand on street corners and spout their
policies to barracking from the crowd. Nowdays you would be evicted or arrested for muttering under your breath your dislike of the politician and his party.

westerly

winner69
12-09-2017, 07:12 PM
Russell Dalton has appeared in 8 Hollywood feature films and has written ,lectured, and researched on the "role of citizens in the political process"
Seems to be a man of many parts but I could tell him why the ordinary person is becoming less involved in the political process in one word.
Boredom,
A new poll every second night, leaders debates on TV . Newspapers have almost surpassed their coverage of rugby and league with political comment , talkback radio hosts who also write political articles in the newspapers. Its boring.
Give us back the old days before TV when politicians had to stand on street corners and spout their
policies to barracking from the crowd. Nowdays you would be evicted or arrested for muttering under your breath your dislike of the politician and his party.

westerly

Agree

And I betcha there are still quite a few who don't even know there's an election on in 2 weeks anyway. They won't be bored with election - probably enjoying themselves on Instagram or whatever

Baa_Baa
12-09-2017, 07:26 PM
the thrust of Dalton's view was actually '.....democracy suffers because too many active citizens lack the abilities and resources to make meaningful decisions.'

And the end game of democracy is http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-11/sandcastle-decline-democracy-tyranny-inevitable

minimoke
13-09-2017, 06:23 AM
Seems to be a man of many parts but I could tell him why the ordinary person is becoming less involved in the political process in one word.
Boredom,
Boredom? This has to be one of the best lections ever!

fungus pudding
13-09-2017, 07:59 AM
Boredom? This has to be one of the best lections ever!

I'll let you know about that in a couple of weeks. :p

craic
13-09-2017, 08:11 AM
I happen to be part of the large majority of New Zealanders who will not be significantly affected by the result of this election. I have a house to live in. I have an income, the pension, that allows me to live comfortably. I do not live in Auckland. I do not have to worry about my children's education. The strip of tar seal that joins me to the rest of my word is nearly always open and uncrowded. If I get cold, well I always have another tree to chop down to heat me and the water. If I get too hot well, I can always sit out under the shade of next years tree. You can be sure of a couple of things, neither Labour or National will fulfil even half their promises. In ten years time we will have experienced at least one more change of government from whichever lot is elected this time. I will vote because on Saturday afternoon my car will be parked just outside the polling booth as it always is on a Saturday - I catch a free bus from there to my club in town and the same on the way back in the afternoon. I expect National to survive this election but I am far from confident. The on matter that would excite me would be a party that, from day one declares that they will not enter into any agreement with Winston Peters regardless of the results on polling night.