National - FFS!

[winner69]

A largely invisible Luxon and one who is quite ineffective in ripping into the govt’s record and agenda leading Nats to inevitable defeat next year

Pity the country …he is failing is.

[Panda-NZ-]

A largely invisible Luxon and one who is quite ineffective in ripping into the govt’s record and agenda leading Nats to inevitable defeat next year

Pity the country …he is failing is.

You'd want him to be more invisible rather than visible.

They're making a mistake when they place his face on too many billboards.

Blue is my favourite colour too and they're ruining it.

[Blue Skies]

Luxon winging it again, yet again showing his lack of grasp of detail.
It's worrying when there's so many flash points in the world right now.

Whatever you say about Jacinda Adern, her grasp of policy detail is phenomenal & she does the homework.
When you watch these two in The House, Luxon consistently struggles against Adern.
He's going to need a lot of coaching for the TV debates in election year & put in the mahi or he's likely to embarrass himself.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/christopher-luxon-u-turns-on-u-turn-acknowledging-he-misspoke/G4LEMNH2MNHV7M2VAR453Z4NRE/

[Balance]

Luxon winging it again, yet again showing his lack of grasp of detail.
It's worrying when there's so many flash points in the world right now.

Whatever you say about Jacinda Adern, her grasp of policy detail is phenomenal & she does the homework.
When you watch these two in The House, Luxon consistently struggles against Adern.
He's going to need a lot of coaching for the TV debates in election year & put in the mahi or he's likely to embarrass himself.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/christopher-luxon-u-turns-on-u-turn-acknowledging-he-misspoke/G4LEMNH2MNHV7M2VAR453Z4NRE/

Yawn - deeds not words.

For all Ardern’s grasp of details, she has delivered nothing but empty deeds and bugger all.

Ardern is so full of BS and spin she regurgitates nothing but garbage from her hypocritical lying mouth.

The polls show what NZers prefer - sincerity & action.

[iceman]

Luxon winging it again, yet again showing his lack of grasp of detail.
It's worrying when there's so many flash points in the world right now.

Whatever you say about Jacinda Adern, her grasp of policy detail is phenomenal & she does the homework.
When you watch these two in The House, Luxon consistently struggles against Adern.
He's going to need a lot of coaching for the TV debates in election year & put in the mahi or he's likely to embarrass himself.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/christopher-luxon-u-turns-on-u-turn-acknowledging-he-misspoke/G4LEMNH2MNHV7M2VAR453Z4NRE/

As much as you like to point out this sort of completely irrelevant stuff, what will make people decide their vote next year will more be like the lies and dishonesty we are experiencing from current Government, such as telling us for months about "3 Waters" policy only for it turn out to be "5 Waters", including geothermal and seawater (remember seabed & foreshore). They just omitted to tell us.

Then things like David Parker pushing through RMA "reform" without support from any other party, which includes co-Governance on all 15 committees he is proposing, after he said there would be no co-Governance. When asked, he said it wasn't co-Governance because the law required only minimum of 2 out of 6 committee members to be of a certain race. Apparently he has decided that only 50-50 is co-Governance.

This is just in the last couple of days. It is never ending and will be the end of this useless Government.

[Blue Skies]

As much as you like to point out this sort of completely irrelevant stuff, what will make people decide their vote next year will more be like the lies and dishonesty we are experiencing from current Government, such as telling us for months about "3 Waters" policy only for it turn out to be "5 Waters", including geothermal and seawater (remember seabed & foreshore). They just omitted to tell us.

Then things like David Parker pushing through RMA "reform" without support from any other party, which includes co-Governance on all 15 committees he is proposing, after he said there would be no co-Governance. When asked, he said it wasn't co-Governance because the law required only minimum of 2 out of 6 committee members to be of a certain race. Apparently he has decided that only 50-50 is co-Governance.

This is just in the last couple of days. It is never ending and will be the end of this useless Government.


3 Waters & the co-governance aspect of it has become a lightening rod for anti-Māori sentiment in an extremely vocal minority of the population.
Unfortunately its become fertile ground for ACT & National to exploit in spite of the fact it was National which introduced the co-governance model & constitutionally it being difficult to ignore.
I don't know what the problem is giving Iwi a voice in these Regional groups set up to ensure the best interests of the communities & environment, but which don't own or manage the resources.
The Boards selected by the Regional Groups to mange the resources, have to be "independent, professional & have the necessary competencies "
The councils which currently manage them are not independent, often lack the competencies & are often beholden to special interest groups & often make decisions based on getting re-elected rather than the best long term interests of the community or environment.

Anyway seeing the joyful way Ruby Tui led a crowd of 42 thousand in singing Tūtira mai ngā iwi at Eden Park after the Black Ferns won the Rugby World Cup, was amazing & affirming & that this anti-Māori sentiment is very much a minority.

I don't think 3 Waters or co-governance will make most people decide their vote next year. It will be things like the cost of living & if Luxon keeps giving voters reasons not to vote National.
Lets face it, whichever Labour or National win will be determined by a small group of about 10% of swing voters in the middle, with the minor parties possibly choosing the govt.

[jonu]

3 Waters & the co-governance aspect of it has become a lightening rod for anti-Māori sentiment in an extremely vocal minority of the population.
Unfortunately its become fertile ground for ACT & National to exploit in spite of the fact it was National which introduced the co-governance model & constitutionally it being difficult to ignore.
I don't know what the problem is giving Iwi a voice in these Regional groups set up to ensure the best interests of the communities & environment, but which don't own or manage the resources.
The Boards selected by the Regional Groups to mange the resources, have to be "independent, professional & have the necessary competencies "
The councils which currently manage them are not independent, often lack the competencies & are often beholden to special interest groups & often make decisions based on getting re-elected rather than the best long term interests of the community or environment.

Anyway seeing the joyful way Ruby Tui led a crowd of 42 thousand in singing Tūtira mai ngā iwi at Eden Park after the Black Ferns won the Rugby World Cup, was amazing & affirming & that this anti-Māori sentiment is very much a minority.

I don't think 3 Waters or co-governance will make most people decide their vote next year. It will be things like the cost of living & if Luxon keeps giving voters reasons not to vote National.
Lets face it, whichever Labour or National win will be determined by a small group of about 10% of swing voters in the middle, with the minor parties possibly choosing the govt.

It's not anti Maori sentiment. It's anti racism sentiment. Labour's bunch of racist Ministers will thankfully speed their demise.

BTW Blue Skies, what did you make of Nanaia planting a Mahuta toadie (Tuku Morgan) as head of the northern water group? It's gone down like a lead balloon with Ngapuhi and I'm guessing Ngati Whatua aren't exactly rapt either. She can't help herself! She's looking to settle two century old scores while keeping Tainui's snout in everyone else's trough!

[tim23]

Yawn - deeds not words.

For all Ardern’s grasp of details, she has delivered nothing but empty deeds and bugger all.

Ardern is so full of BS and spin she regurgitates nothing but garbage from her hypocritical lying mouth.

The polls show what NZers prefer - sincerity & action.
You forget the worm 🐛 it got Peter Dunn and a bunch of misfits several MPs so the leaders debate becomes significant.

[Getty]

You forget the worm 🐛 it got Peter Dunn and a bunch of misfits several MPs so the leaders debate becomes significant.

That worm got a dose of thiabendazole long ago!

[ynot]

3 Waters & the co-governance aspect of it has become a lightening rod for anti-Māori sentiment in an extremely vocal minority of the population.
Unfortunately its become fertile ground for ACT & National to exploit in spite of the fact it was National which introduced the co-governance model & constitutionally it being difficult to ignore.
I don't know what the problem is giving Iwi a voice in these Regional groups set up to ensure the best interests of the communities & environment, but which don't own or manage the resources.
The Boards selected by the Regional Groups to mange the resources, have to be "independent, professional & have the necessary competencies "
The councils which currently manage them are not independent, often lack the competencies & are often beholden to special interest groups & often make decisions based on getting re-elected rather than the best long term interests of the community or environment.

Anyway seeing the joyful way Ruby Tui led a crowd of 42 thousand in singing Tūtira mai ngā iwi at Eden Park after the Black Ferns won the Rugby World Cup, was amazing & affirming & that this anti-Māori sentiment is very much a minority.

I don't think 3 Waters or co-governance will make most people decide their vote next year. It will be things like the cost of living & if Luxon keeps giving voters reasons not to vote National.
Lets face it, whichever Labour or National win will be determined by a small group of about 10% of swing voters in the middle, with the minor parties possibly choosing the govt.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. People hate being conned. Absolutely hate it.
You appear to have no problem glossing over Labour's despicable behavior like it is not really that bad. It is.

[Panda-NZ-]

You forget the worm so the leaders debate becomes significant.

Q.1.

Why do you think America is a model country?

If you want tough on crime, tough on abortions etc then simply move there.

[Balance]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. People hate being conned. Absolutely hate it.
You appear to have no problem glossing over Labour's despicable behavior like it is not really that bad. It is.

It's not ordinary NZers who have woken up to the fact that Ardern & her clueless mob have been conning them - leftists like Chris Trotter & journalists are waking up to that fact as well.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1659559737654-WPWU2D3B6I76D1Z7RUIG/Labour.jpg?format=2500w

[Blue Skies]

So National want to bring back a Boot Camp policy which costs $250,000 per teenager & a minimum failure rate of 85%.
That means its ROI is $1.75 million per successful kid who didn't straightaway go back to ram raiding or some other repeat offending.

A cost of $1.75 million per kid & that's ok with the Nat supporters?
I thought National were all about the govt wasting taxpayers money, going line by line through spending so we won't have to borrow or cut services to fund tax cuts?

The fundamental drivers of street crime are inequality, marginalisation (i.e. nothing to lose) & insecure living arrangements ( parents/caregivers & housing ).
And many of theses kids have mental health issues like ADHD. Obviously putting them in a military style boot camp is a complete waste of time & huge expense.
And as if the Army is going to want to, or are qualified to have to deal with these kids.

[tim23]

So National want to bring back a Boot Camp policy which costs $250,000 per teenager & a minimum failure rate of 85%.
That means its ROI is $1.75 million per successful kid who didn't straightaway go back to ram raiding or some other repeat offending.

A cost of $1.75 million per kid & that's ok with the Nat supporters?
I thought National were all about the govt wasting taxpayers money, going line by line through spending so we won't have to borrow or cut services to fund tax cuts?

The fundamental drivers of street crime are inequality, marginalisation (i.e. nothing to lose) & insecure living arrangements ( parents/caregivers & housing ).
And many of theses kids have mental health issues like ADHD. Obviously putting them in a military style boot camp is a complete waste of time & huge expense.
And as if the Army is going to want to, or are qualified to have to deal with these kids.

Quite right but their voters love this law and order stuff - it’s hardly groundbreaking policy

[777]

I see no evidence the cotton wool system is working to the advantage of those you are referring to.

[tim23]

I see no evidence the cotton wool system is working to the advantage of those you are referring to.
What’s your point?

[Blue Skies]

Chris Luxon has been attacking school principals & now parents about school attendance & often repeats the statistic that 60% of kids weren't attending school regularly (in the second term) so I thought its worth fact checking this as it sounds alarming.
I understand that under the guidelines, to be defined as attending school regularly, you have to attend school for 90% or more days of the term.
A term is approx 10 weeks or 50 school days. So any more than 5 days off in a whole term falls into that category.
When you put that into context of the winter term when there was a spike in covid & flu with sick kids having to stay home, it doesn't sound that unusual from any other previous year.

Latest attendance rates for the period 7-11 November when a large number of school kids are on examination study leave had a high of 85.7% & a low of 81.4%.





https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/218969/School_national_07-Nov-11-Nov_2022.pdf

[Balance]

Education - this is the results of Ardern’s big plan to merge the polytechnics :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/130535611/eight-200kayear-executives-wanted-at-te-pkenga-despite-need-to-cut-35m-from-budget

Spend ever more money to achieve ever less.

[jonu]

Education - this is the results of Ardern’s big plan to merge the polytechnics :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/130535611/eight-200kayear-executives-wanted-at-te-pkenga-despite-need-to-cut-35m-from-budget

Spend ever more money to achieve ever less.

Is it any wonder this is doomed to failure. Not even up and running and already a top heavy management structure with no accountability being put in place. Classic Labour. The Nats need to go hard on this.

[tim23]

Is it any wonder this is doomed to failure. Not even up and running and already a top heavy management structure with no accountability being put in place. Classic Labour. The Nats need to go hard on this.

Well the Nats have Ruth Richardson mark 2 in finance so she’s probably capable of going hard for you.

[iceman]

Well the Nats have Ruth Richardson mark 2 in finance so she’s probably capable of going hard for you.

tim23, are you comparing Nicola Willis to Ruth Richardson, who only followed in the footsteps and continued the work of the Lange Labour Government ? ? If you are, can you please expand on your ignorance ?

[Getty]

Lux looking impeccable on Q & A this morning.

Scrubbed up well, not a hair out of place, and perfect symmetrical Windsor knot in his tie.

Definitely a PM in waiting.

[fungus pudding]

Lux looking impeccable on Q & A this morning.

Scrubbed up well, not a hair out of place, and perfect symmetrical Windsor knot in his tie.

Definitely a PM in waiting.

Correction - every single hair was out of place.

[Blue Skies]

When questioned about National's policies on meeting Climate Change emissions targets this morning on Q&A, Luxon said National's solution is expensive Carbon Capture technology, & they would allow farmers set their own targets, roll back all of Labours emissions policies & allow fossil fuel companies to restart offshore oil & gas drilling.

Now for the uninformed, this costly fledgling Climate Capture technology sounds impressive, until you realise the world's largest Carbon Capture plant has just opened in Iceland, aiming to capture up to 4000 tons of CO2 per year & deposit it underground.
Wait for it, that's the emissions from just about 790 cars!

So next time you hear Luxon say National's solution to meeting these emissions targets is 'Climate Capture technology', just know it's nonsense.
(Just like the hugely expensive & impractical military boot camps are going to make any difference)




https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/worlds-largest-plant-capturing-carbon-air-starts-iceland-2021-09-08/

[Getty]

Correction - every single hair was out of place.

Is Lux talking about getting a wig, or is that just hairsay?

[dln]

He sent it off to the army for retraining and a stern talking to.
Results are as expected ...

[Getty]

Lux will give us the bald facts, unlike JaSinner the Spinner.

[tim23]

Lux looking impeccable on Q & A this morning.

Scrubbed up well, not a hair out of place, and perfect symmetrical Windsor knot in his tie.

Definitely a PM in waiting.
What a sucky cringeworthy post from a party flunky.

[Getty]

What a sucky cringeworthy post from a party flunky.

Aw Tim, I'm not a funky of any party, but it is possible some of the sycophantic balderdash of JaSinner the Spinner's mob has rubbed off on me.

Just because WOWser Ardern got kicked off the catwalk, there's no need to get snotty with me.

[tim23]

Aw Tim, I'm not a funky of any party, but it is possible some of the sycophantic balderdash of JaSinner the Spinner's mob has rubbed off on me.

Just because WOWser Ardern got kicked off the catwalk, there's no need to get snotty with me.
I said you were a Flunky but maybe Funky Flunky is more apt😀

[Getty]

I said you were a Flunky but maybe Funky Flunky is more apt😀

Aw funk!
Lol.

[tim23]

Aw funk!
Lol.

You are a good sport too😀

[jonu]

When questioned about National's policies on meeting Climate Change emissions targets this morning on Q&A, Luxon said National's solution is expensive Carbon Capture technology, & they would allow farmers set their own targets, roll back all of Labours emissions policies & allow fossil fuel companies to restart offshore oil & gas drilling.

Now for the uninformed, this costly fledgling Climate Capture technology sounds impressive, until you realise the world's largest Carbon Capture plant has just opened in Iceland, aiming to capture up to 4000 tons of CO2 per year & deposit it underground.
Wait for it, that's the emissions from just about 790 cars!

So next time you hear Luxon say National's solution to meeting these emissions targets is 'Climate Capture technology', just know it's nonsense.
(Just like the hugely expensive & impractical military boot camps are going to make any difference)




https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/worlds-largest-plant-capturing-carbon-air-starts-iceland-2021-09-08/

I don't have a view on the merits of carbon capture, but I imagine the results would be no different from the disastrous mess Labour and the Greens are determined to make of our economy for....wait for it.....no measurable difference in climate. That's right....they are determined to stuff our economy for the sake of virtue signalling.

[Panda-NZ-]

Luxon wants to see lower wages for pretty much everyone (both locals and migrants).


Luxon said he “was concerned about the squeezed middle, working poor” and said that added pressure was coming from having to pay migrants one and a half times the minimum wage.

“If you hired a brand-new immigrant off the street, that will force you to raise all your local Kiwis’ wage,” said Luxon.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300757222/concerns-run-deep-hears-luxon

Nothing about high profits from the business community or rents of course.

[Blue Skies]

When interviewed by Jenna Lynch, about Superannuation, Christopher Luxon says National are going to raise the starting age of Super.
When asked by Jenna does he actually know how much a couple gets (pp), Chris replies $450 after tax.
'No,' Jenna Lynch corrects him 'its $356 (pp), are you across the details'..(of these proposed policy changes ?) . Yes absolutely Chris replies !!

When talking about the proposed TVNZ RNZ merger, Chris Luxon says National would scrap the merger, instead fully fund RNZ to ensure its ongoing success, but when asked how much that policy would cost, says he doesn't actually know!

And National's Dr Shane Reti who presumably would become Minister of Health in a National led govt, claims Dairy owners will be "collateral damage" as a result of the new anti-smoking legislation!
In other words we should protect Dairy owners so they can continue to sell tobacco products which kill & cause chronic illnesses to thousands & cost the Health budget millions for a preventable disease.

Really?
And these are the people we want to put in charge of running the country!

[jonu]

When interviewed by Jenna Lynch, about Superannuation, Christopher Luxon says National are going to raise the starting age of Super.
When asked by Jenna does he actually know how much a couple gets (pp), Chris replies $450 after tax.
'No,' Jenna Lynch corrects him 'its $356 (pp), are you across the details'..(of these proposed policy changes ?) . Yes absolutely Chris replies !!

When talking about the proposed TVNZ RNZ merger, Chris Luxon says National would scrap the merger, instead fully fund RNZ to ensure its ongoing success, but when asked how much that policy would cost, says he doesn't actually know!

And National's Dr Shane Reti who presumably would become Minister of Health in a National led govt, claims Dairy owners will be "collateral damage" as a result of the new anti-smoking legislation!
In other words we should protect Dairy owners so they can continue to sell tobacco products which kill & cause chronic illnesses to thousands & cost the Health budget millions for a preventable disease.

Really?
And these are the people we want to put in charge of running the country!

Luxon certainly needs to know when to say he doesn't have the detail at his fingertips. That's something Ardern is very strong with. She just doesn't do anything with it.

As for Reti, what he says is true. Saying "in other words" is somewhat mischievous on your part. Unintended consequences should be thought through, something Reti has obviously done and Labour doesn't want to know about.

[fungus pudding]

When interviewed by Jenna Lynch, about Superannuation, Christopher Luxon says National are going to raise the starting age of Super.
When asked by Jenna does he actually know how much a couple gets (pp), Chris replies $450 after tax.
'No,' Jenna Lynch corrects him 'its $356 (pp), are you across the details'..(of these proposed policy changes ?) . Yes absolutely Chris replies !!

When talking about the proposed TVNZ RNZ merger, Chris Luxon says National would scrap the merger, instead fully fund RNZ to ensure its ongoing success, but when asked how much that policy would cost, says he doesn't actually know!

And National's Dr Shane Reti who presumably would become Minister of Health in a National led govt, claims Dairy owners will be "collateral damage" as a result of the new anti-smoking legislation!
In other words we should protect Dairy owners so they can continue to sell tobacco products which kill & cause chronic illnesses to thousands & cost the Health budget millions for a preventable disease.

Really?
And these are the people we want to put in charge of running the country!



Has it not occured to you that voting these people in is the only way to keep the current hopeless bunch of plonkers out?
Got any better ideas?
Thought not!

[Panda-NZ-]

Their selling point is economic management but they were taken by surprise with inflation, stronger than expected gdp growth currently and can't cost their own policies.

[nztx]

Their selling point is economic management but they were taken by surprise with inflation, stronger than expected gdp growth currently and can't cost their own policies.


At least they in your eyes have a selling point, which coincidentally the vast majority of everyone else
recognise the other bunch of useless plonkers just possess a void where their past selling points
should be, and have repeatedly turned into disasters or custard ;)

[Blue Skies]

Has it not occured to you that voting these people in is the only way to keep the current hopeless bunch of plonkers out?
Got any better ideas?
Thought not!


National sure can pick 'em.

Another one of their awful vindictive MP's, this one engaged with her husband (charges dropped on a plea deal) & son's (prosecuted) animal cruelty & using her position as an National's Agriculture spokesperson to try & get Fonterra officials fired over the prosecution of her son. (it was an appalling story, 23 cows had to be euthanised)

She was National's Agriculture spokesperson while her family were prosecuted for cruelly to farm animals!
And then there's the using Nat Party letterhead & her position to interfere & intimidate officials to get charges dropped.




If this is the sort of person National select & potentially could become a minister,......!





https://www.newsroom.co.nz/mps-emails-show-pattern-of-personal-attacks-on-ministry

[davflaws]

National sure can pick 'em.

If this is the sort of person National select & potentially could become a minister,......!

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/mps-emails-show-pattern-of-personal-attacks-on-ministry

All pretty difficult territory, whichever side of the house you sit on.

Conflicts of interest are a bitch to navigate and deal with under the best of circumstances and most people find it very difficult to take a dispassionate view of conflicts of interest in situations where they feel hard done by and believe their position might give them some leverage to "get justice".

MPs staffs should be tasked with blowing the whistle to the whips in cases like this.

[Blue Skies]

All pretty difficult territory, whichever side of the house you sit on.

Conflicts of interest are a bitch to navigate and deal with under the best of circumstances and most people find it very difficult to take a dispassionate view of conflicts of interest in situations where they feel hard done by and believe their position might give them some leverage to "get justice".

MPs staffs should be tasked with blowing the whistle to the whips in cases like this.



Never mind the corruption & intimidation of people doing their job, - it was the level of cruelty to animals which was disgusting, these people shouldn't be allowed to have animals ever again.
23 of the herd had to be put down.
Anyone who treats animals that cruelly is sick, deeply disturbed.

And Nat' MP Barbara Kuriger was National's Agriculture spokesperson !
Stories like this are incredibly damaging to our export markets.
Not surprising Groundswell like National, they let the small minority of bad farmers do whatever they want.

Both Fonterra & Silver Fern (NZ's biggest exporter of meat) are pushing farmers towards more sustainable & humane farming practices, as that's what the export market is demanding.

Another selection shocker.

[davflaws]

Never mind the corruption & intimidation of people doing their job, - it was the level of cruelty to animals which was disgusting, these people shouldn't be allowed to have animals ever again.
23 of the herd had to be put down.
Anyone who treats animals that cruelly is sick, deeply disturbed.

And Nat' MP Barbara Kuriger was National's Agriculture spokesperson !
Stories like this are incredibly damaging to our export markets.
Not surprising Groundswell like National, they let the small minority of bad farmers do whatever they want.

Both Fonterra & Silver Fern (NZ's biggest exporter of meat) are pushing farmers towards more sustainable & humane farming practices, as that's what the export market is demanding.

Another selection shocker.

No argument that animal cruelty is bad not only for the animals and the people who perpetrate it - but also for the rest of us by damage to our markets and reputation.

At the extreme end - we can all recognise and condemn it, but at the margin there is room for honest disagreement about exactly what is animal cruelty, and what is simply standard farming practice. So dispassionately applied regulation is necessary, and the sort of pressure we are discussing is doubly bad.

[fungus pudding]

No argument that animal cruelty is bad not only for the animals and the people who perpetrate it - but also for the rest of us by damage to our markets and reputation.


In what way is it bad for the perpetrators?

[777]

Not new news. All made public in October.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/476663/national-mp-barbara-kuriger-resigns-from-portfolios-over-significant-conflict-of-interest

[davflaws]

In what way is it bad for the perpetrators?

It desensitises them, and for many people lowers inhibitory thresholds and makes it more likely that they will escalate.

[Blue Skies]

Not new news. All made public in October.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/476663/national-mp-barbara-kuriger-resigns-from-portfolios-over-significant-conflict-of-interest



It was known well before then, but this shows how (not unsurprisingly & any political party might do the same) Barbara Kuringa & National tried to sweep it under the carpet, with little more than an explanation of a 'conflict of interest.'

What has only just become known due to an OIA request are the details of how extreme the attacks, interference & intimidation, using her National Party Agricultural portfolio & Nat' Party letterhead were, & how she even tried to get people fired.

From what I understand Luxon only became aware of how serious this was just recently as a result of the OIA request.
You have to wonder if she lied to him or certainly omitted to tel the whole story.

Surely Luxon will be seeking to find a replacement for her for the TKC seat at the next election, & she'll be joining Uffindall as a person unsuitable character.
I don't know how she is still allowed to be an MP.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/mps-emails-show-pattern-of-personal-attacks-on-ministry

[Balance]

When it comes to picking useless MPs and ministers, nobody will ever come close to the Clueless Prig Cindy :

Clare Curran
Lees Galloway
Poto Williams
Kris Faafoi
Kelvin Davis
Mahuta
David Clark
Willie Jackson
Trevor Mallard
Sharma
Meka Whaitiri
Anna Lorck


Quite a list even for Clueless Cindy! :t_up:

Meanwhile, this is what she spends all her time doing (besides applying makeup by the ton & for hours) :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1645995942210-EJQKXRINW56QNLJ81A0O/Chowder.jpg?format=500w

[Balance]

Here’s the real difference between National/Luxon & Labour/Clueless Prig Ardern :

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS8YkGcm9/

One wants to empower individuals to make a better society for all while the other wants big government to screw up everyone and make them beneficiaries & Labour voters.

[Blue Skies]

Here’s the real difference between National/Luxon & Labour/Clueless Prig Ardern :

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS8YkGcm9/

One wants to empower individuals to make a better society for all while the other wants big government to screw up everyone and make them beneficiaries & Labour voters.



What a load of trollop from Luxon.
He doesn't even realise the govt does already give support to community service providers like Graham Dingle & others. So what's his point!

But look at exactly what happened with Tiny Deane & his 'Visions of a Helping Hand Charitable Trust Rotorua' & how well that turned out!
The govt 'empowered' him, another one of these private community services providers & what a mess that's turned into with the govt paying him millions to house people in motels & then for his security services which intimidated the tenants.
Destiny Church & others would be eager to be 'empowered' by the govt as Luxon puts it with taxpayers money.

Yes there are some good ones & they tend to get supported now, but you need a mix, not one or the other & shoving all responsibility & millions of taxpayers dollars off to private community service providers with little oversight or regulation, poor governance & some with unhealthy agendas, is a recipe for corruption.
Look what happened with the prisons when National tried to shove that off to private service provider SERCO, double bunking, riots & fight clubs.

[davflaws]

Devolution of resources to NGOs and other Iwi organisations can work vey well if there are clearly contracted outcomes and specified targets and processes for review, but things can very rapidly go pear shaped if there are not.

[Panda-NZ-]

The National party is an old boys network under Luxon's leadership.

They're good blokes I'm sure, but sadly they don't bring much in terms of capability.

[Balance]

What a load of trollop from Luxon.
He doesn't even realise the govt does already give support to community service providers like Graham Dingle & others. So what's his point!

But look at exactly what happened with Tiny Deane & his 'Visions of a Helping Hand Charitable Trust Rotorua' & how well that turned out!
The govt 'empowered' him, another one of these private community services providers & what a mess that's turned into with the govt paying him millions to house people in motels & then for his security services which intimidated the tenants.
Destiny Church & others would be eager to be 'empowered' by the govt as Luxon puts it with taxpayers money.

Yes there are some good ones & they tend to get supported now, but you need a mix, not one or the other & shoving all responsibility & millions of taxpayers dollars off to private community service providers with little oversight or regulation, poor governance & some with unhealthy agendas, is a recipe for corruption.
Look what happened with the prisons when National tried to shove that off to private service provider SERCO, double bunking, riots & fight clubs.

Glad you bring up Tiny Deane - the best example of how Clueless Cindy & her mob throw money at any number of projects and initiatives without the foggiest idea of outcomes and with zero accountability.

Exactly the same way the Clueless Prig has been throwing money at

Kiwibuild,

Mental Health,

Polytechnics,

Health NZ,

Cycle bridge,

5 Waters

Emergency housing … the list goes on and on and on.

As for Destiny Church, only Clueless Cindy would be dumb enough to give them money just like she gave the Mongrel Mob money.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1646594748412-T3UQTIGVD5TOS3N1H9JC/promises.jpg?format=500w

[BDL]

I have always had concerns about John Key. Not quite sure what he really stands for, or where he comes from.....

His being a trusted adviser to Luxon is worrying.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300779066/damien-grant-does-luxon-share-sir-john-keys-wilful-blindness-on-china

[dobby41]

I have always had concerns about John Key. Not quite sure what he really stands for, or where he comes from.....

His being a trusted adviser to Luxon is worrying.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300779066/damien-grant-does-luxon-share-sir-john-keys-wilful-blindness-on-china

JK stands for himself and his interests.
Luxon seems to stand for nothing and everything - if he thinks it will get a vote.

[Balance]

The goal of socialism is communism.

[Balance]

The goal of socialism is communism : Ardern & Lenin

[davflaws]

The goal of socialism is communism : Ardern & Lenin
And again I ask - please supply a reference for your claim that Adern said "the goal of socialism is communism"

[ynot]

And again I ask - please supply a reference for your claim that Adern said "the goal of socialism is communism"
Yes Comrade !

(communism) A fellow socialist, communist or other similarly politically aligned person.
Hello, comrade. Are you going to the Communist Party meeting tonight?

[Balance]

Yes Comrade !

(communism) A fellow socialist, communist or other similarly politically aligned person.
Hello, comrade. Are you going to the Communist Party meeting tonight?

Comrade Ardern in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

[dobby41]

Yes Comrade !

(communism) A fellow socialist, communist or other similarly politically aligned person.
Hello, comrade. Are you going to the Communist Party meeting tonight?

When did Jacinda say that 'the goal ...'?

The term comrade (Russian: товарищ, romanized: tovarisch) generally means 'mate', 'colleague', or 'ally', and derives from the Spanish and Portuguese, term camarada,[1] literally meaning 'chamber mate', from Latin camera, meaning 'chamber' or 'room'.[2] It may also specifically mean "fellow soldier". Political use of the term was inspired by the French Revolution, after which it grew into a form of address between socialists and workers. Since the Russian Revolution, popular culture in the Western world has often associated it with communism.

[Blue Skies]

Yes Comrade !

(communism) A fellow socialist, communist or other similarly politically aligned person.
Hello, comrade. Are you going to the Communist Party meeting tonight?



Look like in election year, some are going hard out with the Red Scare tactic, one of the oldest political attack tricks in the book.

Hitler used it to help him gain power in pre war Germany.

Unscrupulous Joe McCarthy whipped it up during the 1950's in the US with what became known as the McCarthyism era.

Trump & his MAGA sycophants, Trump Junior etc, have perfected the Red Scare tactic to attack any opposition.
Ultra Conservative Political Action groups in the US regularly warn of "Radical Democrats embracing Socialism"

Muldoon & the National Party used it in their ultimately humiliating 'Dancing Cossacks' election campaigning in the mid 1970's.

US President Truman famously denounced the term Socialism as a "scare word.. for almost anything which helps all the people."
"Socialism is a scarce word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years."


So be wary of anybody who loosely throws around the term Socialism in election year.


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/truman-socialism-scare-word/

[ynot]

Look like in election year, some are going hard out with the Red Scare tactic, one of the oldest political attack tricks in the book.

Hitler used it to help him gain power in pre war Germany.

Unscrupulous Joe McCarthy whipped it up during the 1950's in the US with what became known as the McCarthyism era.

Trump & his MAGA sycophants, Trump Junior etc, have perfected the Red Scare tactic to attack any opposition.
Ultra Conservative Political Action groups in the US regularly warn of "Radical Democrats embracing Socialism"

Muldoon & the National Party used it in their ultimately humiliating 'Dancing Cossacks' election campaigning in the mid 1970's.

US President Truman famously denounced the term Socialism as a "scare word.. for almost anything which helps all the people."
"Socialism is a scarce word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years."


So be wary of anybody who loosely throws around the term Socialism in election year.


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/truman-socialism-scare-word/
So you think this Labour stands for "an advance of the people"
Dream on !

[Panda-NZ-]

Yes Comrade !

(communism) A fellow socialist, communist or other similarly politically aligned person.
Hello, comrade. Are you going to the Communist Party meeting tonight?

John key is very lenient towards the CCP.. plus the radical right in the US support what Putin is doing (trying to bring back geo-political communism).

[dobby41]

So you think this Labour stands for "an advance of the people"
Dream on !

What does National stand for?
Hopefully, they might say something new sometime - so far they have just dusted off the old playbook.
I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled out the 'dancing cossacks' or something very similar.

[ynot]

What does National stand for?
Hopefully, they might say something new sometime - so far they have just dusted off the old playbook.
I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled out the 'dancing cossacks' or something very similar.

There's an idea.

[ynot]

John key is very lenient towards the CCP.. plus the radical right in the US support what Putin is doing (trying to bring back geo-political communism).
John Key has sold his soul to the Chinese.

[dobby41]

John Key has sold his soul to the Chinese.

Luxon's adviser?

[ynot]

Luxon's adviser?
Maybe. I guess in one way or another everyone has sold out to the Chinese. Labour included.

[dobby41]

Maybe. I guess in one way or another everyone has sold out to the Chinese. Labour included.

Key seems to have his eyes closed to China and is probably advising Luxon in the same way.
Labour is trying to be pragmatic and walking a very fine line here.
Imagine is we ended up in a trade way with China - we'd lose. What would you be saying then about Labour's stance?

[Sideshow Bob]

Luxon just had the best late Xmas present ever.

Would almost say now unlosable, but it is National.....

[RupertBear]

Luxon just had the best late Xmas present ever.

Would almost say now unlosable, but it is National.....

Hmmm I am not so sure about that.

He may be an excellent business man but his evangelical Christian faith may make people think twice about voting for him. He is strongly anti abortion so many women may not vote for him. He also believes homosexuality is an abomination and a sin so members of the LGBT plus community probably wont vote for him. Will Maori vote for him?

It will be interesting to see how he handles these issues in the run up to the election but I am thinking it may be closer than we think

[tim23]

Hmmm I am not so sure about that.

He may be an excellent business man but his evangelical Christian faith may make people think twice about voting for him. He is strongly anti abortion so many women may not vote for him. He also believes homosexuality is an abomination and a sin so members of the LGBT plus community probably wont vote for him. Will Maori vote for him?

It will be interesting to see how he handles these issues in the run up to the election but I am thinking it may be closer than we think

I concur but Luxon is smart enough to know its not a late Christmas present.

[RupertBear]

Hmmm I am not so sure about that.

He may be an excellent business man but his evangelical Christian faith may make people think twice about voting for him. He is strongly anti abortion so many women may not vote for him. He also believes homosexuality is an abomination and a sin so members of the LGBT plus community probably wont vote for him. Will Maori vote for him?

It will be interesting to see how he handles these issues in the run up to the election but I am thinking it may be closer than we think

So Balance what are your thoughts on Christopher Luxon? Do you think his evangelical Christian faith will be popular with voters?

[777]

So Balance what are your thoughts on Christopher Luxon? Do you think his evangelical Christian faith will be popular with voters?

Why are you so focused on his Christian faith? Are you concerned that he is going to make abortions illegal and the same for homosexuality? We don't live in a dictatorship. He is allowed to see things his way whether you agree with him or not. I hardly think it will affect his ability to lead his party.

[iceman]

So Balance what are your thoughts on Christopher Luxon? Do you think his evangelical Christian faith will be popular with voters?

I think most voters in NZ respect people's choice of their faith or religion. It is a private matter that most people have no interest in, nor should they.

[RupertBear]

Most people I know wont vote for National because of his homophobic beliefs. I have no issue myself with what someone believes. I am actually genuinely interested to hear if people think it will impact how people vote. That was the only basis of my question. Purely curious to know what people think

[Balance]

So Balance what are your thoughts on Christopher Luxon? Do you think his evangelical Christian faith will be popular with voters?

Nothing wrong with his faith or anybody’s faith as long as the faith preaches basic moral values like respect for others, respect for life and love for fellow humans.

Everything wrong with those who try to make faith and religion an issue.

As John Kennedy famously replied when he was asked about his Catholic faith that he was not a Catholic standing for election but a patriotic American. That nobody asked about the faith of his or his brother when they enrolled in the war and his brother died.

[RupertBear]

Nothing wrong with his faith or anybody’s faith as long as the faith preaches basic moral values like respect for others, respect for life and love for fellow humans.

Everything wrong with those who try to make faith and religion an issue.

As John Kennedy famously replied when he was asked about his Catholic faith that he was not a Catholic standing for election but a patriotic American. That nobody asked about the faith of his or his brother when they enrolled in the war and his brother died.

Thanks for your reply

[tim23]

Nothing wrong with his faith or anybody’s faith as long as the faith preaches basic moral values like respect for others, respect for life and love for fellow humans.

Everything wrong with those who try to make faith and religion an issue.

As John Kennedy famously replied when he was asked about his Catholic faith that he was not a Catholic standing for election but a patriotic American. That nobody asked about the faith of his or his brother when they enrolled in the war and his brother died.
Funny - for all our benefit you should try and post on this site remembering your first paragraph.

[Blue Skies]

Once again Christopher, Luxon displays clumsy political judgement which must make Nicola Willis & other women in his caucus cringe.

When asked if women in politics get more gendered abuse than men, (note, gendered) he replies "Im not sure about that".
His chance to show women that he cared, gone & not only that but infuriating to many women voters.
"Even David Seymour has spoken openly about women getting far more abuse than men in politics."

Similar to his damaging insensitive comment that abortion is tantamount to murder, when 1 in 4 Kiwi women have had or will have an abortion in their lifetime. (figures according to Family Planning )
Women make up the biggest proportion of swing voters & he's giving them reasons not to vote for him.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/131042460/verity-johnson-luxon-knew-gendered-abuse-was-a-problem--he-just-didnt-want-to-admit-it?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


On another note, when people running for public office are members of fringe or fundamentalist movements & Evangelicalism is definitely on the fringes of Christianity (1 of the 4 key tenets is Activism & the conversion of others) & some of the beliefs are potentially damaging to others, then I don't think that's a private matter which should be kept hidden from voters.

If a person running for PM was a member of say a fringe or fundamentalist Islamic religious group or Hindu, Zionist, etc where Activism was a key tenet, would we feel that was just a private matter?

[jonu]

Once again Christopher, Luxon displays clumsy political judgement which must make Nicola Willis & other women in his caucus cringe.

When asked if women in politics get more gendered abuse than men, (note, gendered) he replies "Im not sure about that".
His chance to show women that he cared, gone & not only that but infuriating to many women voters.
"Even David Seymour has spoken openly about women getting far more abuse than men in politics."

Similar to his damaging insensitive comment that abortion is tantamount to murder, when 1 in 4 Kiwi women have had or will have an abortion in their lifetime. (figures according to Family Planning )
Women make up the biggest proportion of swing voters & he's giving them reasons not to vote for him.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/131042460/verity-johnson-luxon-knew-gendered-abuse-was-a-problem--he-just-didnt-want-to-admit-it?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


On another note, when people running for public office are members of fringe movements & Evangelicalism is definitely on the fringes of Christianity (1 of the 4 key tenets is Activism & the conversion of others) & some of the beliefs are potentially damaging to others, then I don't think that's a private matter which should be kept hidden from voters.
If a person running for PM was a member of say a fringe Islamic movement or Hindu, Zionist, where Activism was a key tenet, etc would we feel that was just a private matter?

Chris Luxon tells the truth re the abuse and that makes him insensitive? I prefer politicians saying what's on their mind rather than what they think people want to hear (Ardern the classic example).

Women may receive a different type of abuse, but whether it's more or less than men would be very difficult to substantiate. And I don't think this is a new phenomenon. Do you recall the "ding dong the witch is gone/dead" with regards to Margaret Thatcher? The leftie cohort didn't display too much sensitivity there.

Ardern's faut empathy, lack of delivery and general BS caught up with her.

As for your fear of Christians....I don't think they are the ones throwing people to the lions. They just don't like to see the pillars of Western civilisation eroded by a bunch of shallow minded woke fools. We are all, sadly, reaping what she sowed. And Noddy Hipkins was there at her side every step of the way.

[Blue Skies]

Chris Luxon tells the truth re the abuse and that makes him insensitive? I prefer politicians saying what's on their mind rather than what they think people want to hear (Ardern the classic example).

Women may receive a different type of abuse, but whether it's more or less than men would be very difficult to substantiate. And I don't think this is a new phenomenon. Do you recall the "ding dong the witch is gone/dead" with regards to Margaret Thatcher? The leftie cohort didn't display too much sensitivity there.

Ardern's faut empathy, lack of delivery and general BS caught up with her.

As for your fear of Christians....I don't think they are the ones throwing people to the lions. They just don't like to see the pillars of Western civilisation eroded by a bunch of shallow minded woke fools. We are all, sadly, reaping what she sowed. And Noddy Hipkins was there at her side every step of the way.




Shamefully & sadly it's true, the research is being widely reported, out of 7 high profile politicians, around 93% of the toxic violent abuse has been directed at Jacinda Ardern & it has been at levels beyond anything seen before.
Everyone knew this, if Christopher Luxon didn't he must have had his head in the sand as even his colleagues knew.
Please don't try and normalise it by suggesting this is nothing new.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/482961/nine-out-of-10-hateful-posts-tracked-in-darkest-corners-of-the-internet-targeted-ardern-new-study

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/jacinda-ardern-will-need-police-protection-after-standing-down-as-prime-minister-experts/

[jonu]

Shamefully & sadly it's true, the research is being widely reported, out of 7 high profile politicians, around 93% of the toxic violent abuse has been directed at Jacinda Ardern & it has been at levels beyond anything seen before.
Everyone knew this, if Christopher Luxon didn't he must have had his head in the sand as even his colleagues knew.
Please don't try and normalise it by suggesting this is nothing new.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/482961/nine-out-of-10-hateful-posts-tracked-in-darkest-corners-of-the-internet-targeted-ardern-new-study

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/jacinda-ardern-will-need-police-protection-after-standing-down-as-prime-minister-experts/

This "study" would appear to be largely worthless in giving any meaningful measurement. We don't know who it was measured against other than by profession. If it was limited to NZ (presumably it was) of course Ardern would cop the most. She is the most prominent and as PM seen as ultimately responsible for a range of unpopular policies that in many cases upended people's lives. I'm not condoning extremist comments. But for you, or the laughable Kate Hannah, to say this proves anything is ridiculous.

Who funds Kate Hannah anyway? This "Disinformation Project" has effectively been a mouth piece for Ardern's and the WEF's Hate Speech/censorship agenda.

[blackcap]

This "study" would appear to be largely worthless in giving any meaningful measurement. We don't know who it was measured against other than by profession. If it was limited to NZ (presumably it was) of course Ardern would cop the most. She is the most prominent and as PM seen as ultimately responsible for a range of unpopular policies that in many cases upended people's lives. I'm not condoning extremist comments. But for you, or the laughable Kate Hannah, to say this proves anything is ridiculous.

Who funds Kate Hannah anyway? This "Disinformation Project" has effectively been a mouth piece for Ardern's and the WEF's Hate Speech/censorship agenda.

Kate Hannah has been exposed by The Platform. The disinformation is coming from Kate Hannah.

[777]

Perhaps Blue Skies is Kate Hannah.

[FTG]

out of 7 high profile politicians, around 93% of the toxic violent abuse has been directed at Jacinda Ardern



Yet another reminder for you BS that 'correlation does NOT imply causation'.


The position of PM is understandably going to attract far more bouquets and/or brickbats than any other political position. In Ardern's case it appears that the overwhelming majority of the populace dishing out non-violent 'brickbats' (both privately & publicly) have done so because they simply have had enough of her divisive political decisions, actions & behaviour (lies, spin etc). The PM's gender (whether it be female, male, neutral or otherwise) has got very little to do with it, as far as the average kiwi battler is concerned.

[jonu]

Sean Plunkett on the creation of the martyrdom of Ardern myth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YSpg_2hDU

Also interesting comments about the backroom staff and the possibility of a bloodless coup.

[Panda-NZ-]

National: Minimum wage too high despite unemployment being at 3%

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/483135/minimum-wage-too-high-to-increase-further-without-fuelling-inflation-national-s-nicola-willis

I wanted to see it increased to at least $22/hr this year.

[nztx]

National: Minimum wage too high despite unemployment being at 3%

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/483135/minimum-wage-too-high-to-increase-further-without-fuelling-inflation-national-s-nicola-willis

I wanted to see it increased to at least $22/hr this year.


It looks like Gobbo Robbo's pie in the sky redundancy insurance madness project may be put
back on the blocks, wheels removed & going nowhere ;)

Such a shame especially when Labour's fortunes with the economy show all the signs of sliding
back down the hill into the quagmire at the bottom ;)

Probably just the very thing Robbo didn't foresee or want to happen when he glided out with the
grandiose conception of more free money for any excuse offering ;)

[Panda-NZ-]

How can Nicola Willis serve under someone who thinks women having full reproductive choices and prioritising their own careers, is a sin.

[blackcap]

How can Nicola Willis serve under someone who thinks women having full reproductive choices and prioritising their own careers, is a sin.

Women do have full reproductive choices. Just killing of unborn babies should not be one of them is his viewpoint and he is entitle to that.

How can anyone serve under anyone if they have differing opinions?

You ever have a boss that had opinions that you did not agree with Panda?

[Panda-NZ-]

How would her own life trajectory have played out if she was a teenager at a party and made a mistake one night (then be made to carry this teenage pregnancy to full term).

She might be part of a team which makes decisions that will impact on a million women.

[ynot]

How would her own life trajectory have played out if she was a teenager at a party and made a mistake one night (should she be made to carry this teenage pregnancy to full term).

She might be part of a team which makes decisions that will impact on a million women.
Mistakes have consequences. Why do you think we are in such a mess today.

[777]

How would her own life trajectory have played out if she was a teenager at a party and made a mistake one night (should she be made to carry this teenage pregnancy to full term).

She might be part of a team which makes decisions that will impact on a million women.

It's been asked of you before, where has Luxon said he is going to outlaw abortions? It simply your figment of imagination. You need to focus on reality. It may do you some good.

[Panda-NZ-]

The law was only changed in 2020..

It is relevant esp when luxon thinks everything labour does = bad. The legislation may well end up on the bonfire too.

[iceman]

The law was only changed in 2020..

It is relevant esp when luxon thinks everything labour does = bad. The legislation may well end up on the bonfire too.

You are just making up stuff in your desperation. Most Labour & National MPs voted in favour of the legislation. A few MPs from both parties voted against it. Luxon has already stated it is not legislation that will be revisited. There’s no support to do so within National.
Why do you keep banging on about it and make stuff up ?
The next National Government will be busy with a lot of cleaning up. This issue isn’t one of them

[dobby41]

National: Minimum wage too high despite unemployment being at 3%

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/483135/minimum-wage-too-high-to-increase-further-without-fuelling-inflation-national-s-nicola-willis

I wanted to see it increased to at least $22/hr this year.

So far National have been wrong with everything they have said about minimum wage rises.
At one stage it was going to spell the end of many businesses and chronic un-employment.

Now it will cause inflation but it wouldn't if they hadn't increased it in the past few years.
Go figure!

[dobby41]

National is about pandering to those who fund them - wealthy people.
They fund National for a reason - they expect something back (lower tax, not having their financial affairs looked into too hard etc).

[Panda-NZ-]

It's funny because he talks about NZ being focused on a "small game".

While he's talking almost exclusively to dairy, cafe owners and hairdressers while Jacinda was on the phone to Amazon and microsoft.

[nztx]

National is about pandering to those who fund them - wealthy people.
They fund National for a reason - they expect something back (lower tax, not having their financial affairs looked into too hard etc).


Forgotten about Douglas's Personal Income tax promise when GST was brought in ? ;)

What do we still have being collected 37 years later ?

That shows 16-17 years of Govt's continuing squandering & pilfering off of what Douglas indicated wouldn't
be needed / taken.

This Labour Govt's continuing patterns of wasteful squandering left right and centre says it all ;)

[nztx]

It's funny because he talks about NZ being focused on a "small game".

While he's talking almost exclusively to dairy, cafe owners and hairdressers while Jacinda was on the phone to Amazon and microsoft.


The same multi nationals that Labour tried to suggest weren't paying their taxes ? ;)

Jacinda on the phone .. lol .. God help us .. look at the shambles she left behind before
abandoning you and your clueless mates :)

[dobby41]

Forgotten about Douglas's Personal Income tax promise when GST was brought in ? ;)

What do we still have being collected 37 years later ?

That shows 16-17 years of Govt's continuing squandering & pilfering off of what Douglas indicated wouldn't
be needed / taken.

This Labour Govt's continuing patterns of wasteful squandering left right and centre says it all ;)

The election will be fought by the parties of today not 37 years ago.
Remember JK saying he wouldn't put GST up - then did?

National - the party of help the wealthy and go back to the past.

[iceman]

The election will be fought by the parties of today not 37 years ago.
Remember JK saying he wouldn't put GST up - then did?

National - the party of help the wealthy and go back to the past.

Too funny. Will be fought "by the parties of today" you say and then you immediately in the next sentence jump back 13 years on National. You're very consistent.
I agree the next election will be a judgment on the current Government and the Labour Party. Nothing else.

[Panda-NZ-]

I agree the next election will be a judgment on the current Government and the Labour Party. Nothing else.

Unless Luxon is photographed by the media eating something "the wrong way" in one of the hundreds of cafe's he visits each year.

Who knows what it will be about.. "in reality".

[dobby41]

Too funny. Will be fought "by the parties of today" you say and then you immediately in the next sentence jump back 13 years on National. You're very consistent.
I agree the next election will be a judgment on the current Government and the Labour Party. Nothing else.

You need better comprehension skills.
If nztx wants to talk about 37 years ago he needs to remember 13 years ago - much more recent Hence the comment).

You may be right that the next election will be a judgment on the current government as the opposition has nothing at all new to offer from the policies of old.
Attack the 'bottom feeders' as Luxon calls them.
Depress the less wealthy, boost the rich, a few boot camps. All devoid of thinking - and it may, unfortunately, get them through though I think Hipkins provides a bit of a reset and Luxon needs to think long and hard.

[iceman]

You need better comprehension skills.
If nztx wants to talk about 37 years ago he needs to remember 13 years ago - much more recent Hence the comment).

You may be right that the next election will be a judgment on the current government as the opposition has nothing at all new to offer from the policies of old.
Attack the 'bottom feeders' as Luxon calls them.
Depress the less wealthy, boost the rich, a few boot camps. All devoid of thinking - and it may, unfortunately, get them through though I think Hipkins provides a bit of a reset and Luxon needs to think long and hard.

Sorry but it is you Labour supporters that need better comprehension skills. So does the Government as the previous PM has belatedly acknowledged by abandoning the sinking ship, quickly followed by the Finance Minister., even though he is still on the deck but with his life jacket on. It doesn't matter how much you attack your opponents and bring up irrelevant stuff, voters can see through it all. Finally.

[Getty]

While he's talking almost exclusively to dairy, cafe owners and hairdressers while Jacinda was on the phone to Amazon and microsoft.

What's up?

Comrade Cinders has only been gone for 5 minutes, and already she thinks she's the wolf of Wall Street from a sheep's country!

What a turncoat!

Settle down Cinders!

[Panda-NZ-]

What's up?

Comrade Cinders has only been gone for 5 minutes, and already she thinks she's the wolf of Wall Street from a sheep's country!

What a turncoat!

Settle down Cinders!

Better than Sir John who actually worked there.. trounced by mickey mouse (Walt disney hobbit deal).

Edit: was warner brothers, not disney.. oh well joke sounds better if it was them. :)

[nztx]

The election will be fought by the parties of today not 37 years ago.
Remember JK saying he wouldn't put GST up - then did?

National - the party of help the wealthy and go back to the past.


Proof of ongoing deception & lies from Labour

The same lot who deceived you & your mates on all the Free Covid Cash & Wage rises.

No sooner had it landed then everyone found their buying power in real terms was devalued.

Who got conned and is awake now ? and who got conned and still hasn't woken up ? ;)

As much as Auckland may be very very Angry with Labour, it does however share one thing with Labour

The devastation around Auckland now is not disimilar to what a clueless Labour regime
have once again wrought on the whole of the country. No matter which posturing puppets
Labour have fronting the disaster, created at their hands, it wont be going away any time soon ;)

Everyone else is wide awake to it, why aren't you and few other fools ? ;)

[nztx]

Better than Sir John who actually worked there.. trounced by mickey mouse (Walt disney hobbit deal).

Edit: was warner brothers, not disney.. oh well joke sounds better if it was them. :)

been watching too many Hobbit movies again by chance ? ;)

Sure it wasn't MGM or Time Warner, a Russian Film outfit or the inhouse spin team out the back ? :)

the next take might be about a huddle of lost Labour Hobbits (less a noisy loud spinning one which forgot the plot ) all shuffling out of a Beehive after another resounding defeat and unsurprising loss of confidence vote ;)

After the sequel is done, a few may wake up to how the huddle lead everyone down the garden path :)

[tim23]

What's up?

Comrade Cinders has only been gone for 5 minutes, and already she thinks she's the wolf of Wall Street from a sheep's country!

What a turncoat!

Settle down Cinders!

Lemon 🍋 proof again.

[tim23]

So far National have been wrong with everything they have said about minimum wage rises.
At one stage it was going to spell the end of many businesses and chronic un-employment.

Now it will cause inflation but it wouldn't if they hadn't increased it in the past few years.
Go figure!

For as many years as I can remember raising the minimum wage was going to cause all sorts of issues- it never has so here again we have silly scaremongering.

[tim23]

Sorry but it is you Labour supporters that need better comprehension skills. So does the Government as the previous PM has belatedly acknowledged by abandoning the sinking ship, quickly followed by the Finance Minister., even though he is still on the deck but with his life jacket on. It doesn't matter how much you attack your opponents and bring up irrelevant stuff, voters can see through it all. Finally.

Hello but the election is in October not today - you may well eat your words.

[fungus pudding]

For as many years as I can remember raising the minimum wage was going to cause all sorts of issues- it never has so here again we have silly scaremongering.

It feeds inflation like nothing else can ever do - and that causes all sorts of problems, particularly for those at the bottom of the ladder.

[iceman]

Hello but the election is in October not today - you may well eat your words.

Not sure what you're talking about. My post didn't say anything about the election in October. It said Jacinda jumped ship because the voters have had enough of her and Robinson is staying on with his lifejacket on. That's just a fact and has nothing to do with the next election.

[Baa_Baa]

Co-Governance Why It's Wrong, And Why It Must Be Stopped (https://issuu.com/esisite/docs/3481_jb_-_go-governance_-_a5_booklet_-_online)

[dobby41]

Co-Governance Why It's Wrong, And Why It Must Be Stopped (https://issuu.com/esisite/docs/3481_jb_-_go-governance_-_a5_booklet_-_online)

Co-governance is less controversial than Christopher Luxon makes out
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131064324/cogovernance-is-less-controversial-than-christopher-luxon-makes-out

[moka]

Not sure what you're talking about. My post didn't say anything about the election in October. It said Jacinda jumped ship because the voters have had enough of her and Robinson is staying on with his lifejacket on. That's just a fact and has nothing to do with the next election.I think you are presenting “alternative facts” when you say Jacinda jumped ship because the voters had had enough of her. Only some voters disliked her. There was a huge outpouring of support when she resigned from those who love her. The reason she resigned was not enough fuel in the tank = burnout.

"I believe that leading a country is the most privileged job anyone could ever have, but also one of the more challenging. You cannot, and should not do it unless you have a full tank plus a bit in reserve for those unexpected challenges.
"This summer, I had hoped to find a way to prepare for not just another year, but another term - because that is what this year requires. I have not been able to do that.
"And so today, I am announcing that I will not be seeking re-election and that my term as prime minister will conclude no later than the 7th of February."

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/482755/jacinda-ardern-quits-the-bombshell-resignation-no-one-saw-coming

[tim23]

It feeds inflation like nothing else can ever do - and that causes all sorts of problems, particularly for those at the bottom of the ladder.
Sure itÂ’s a contribution to inflation but itÂ’s hardly a deal breaker- so are you happy for minimum wage earners to miss out this year?

[iceman]

I think you are presenting “alternative facts” when you say Jacinda jumped ship because the voters had had enough of her. Only some voters disliked her. There was a huge outpouring of support when she resigned from those who love her. The reason she resigned was not enough fuel in the tank = burnout.

"I believe that leading a country is the most privileged job anyone could ever have, but also one of the more challenging. You cannot, and should not do it unless you have a full tank plus a bit in reserve for those unexpected challenges.
"This summer, I had hoped to find a way to prepare for not just another year, but another term - because that is what this year requires. I have not been able to do that.
"And so today, I am announcing that I will not be seeking re-election and that my term as prime minister will conclude no later than the 7th of February."

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/482755/jacinda-ardern-quits-the-bombshell-resignation-no-one-saw-coming

"There was a huge outpouring of support when she resigned "
You stick to your "alternative facts" moka. Fine by me if you believe that. I agree though that there was a huge outpouring of support to her buggering off. Like from the bar owner who told me they sold out of bubblies for the first time ever, the night she resigned.

[tim23]

"There was a huge outpouring of support when she resigned "
You stick to your "alternative facts" moka. Fine by me if you believe that. I agree though that there was a huge outpouring of support to her buggering off. Like from the bar owner who told me they sold out of bubblies for the first time ever, the night she resigned.
I think your bar owner mate presented you some alternative facts - they probably only had 2 bottles of Cold Duck available and they were probably on special.

[moka]

"There was a huge outpouring of support when she resigned "
You stick to your "alternative facts" moka. Fine by me if you believe that. I agree though that there was a huge outpouring of support to her buggering off. Like from the bar owner who told me they sold out of bubblies for the first time ever, the night she resigned.I was disputing the fact that you said Jacinda jumped ship because the voters had had enough of her. I disagree with that. As this article says she is leaving on her own terms, and she has chosen the time and manner of her leaving. I don’t dispute that there are those that hate her and were glad to see her go. And there are those who love her and were sad to see her go.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3207370/love-her-or-hate-her-new-zealand-pm-jacinda-ardern-leaving-her-own-terms

[nztx]

I was disputing the fact that you said Jacinda jumped ship because the voters had had enough of her. I disagree with that. As this article says she is leaving on her own terms, and she has chosen the time and manner of her leaving. I don’t dispute that there are those that hate her and were glad to see her go. And there are those who love her and were sad to see her go.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3207370/love-her-or-hate-her-new-zealand-pm-jacinda-ardern-leaving-her-own-terms


A bit unusual that she also chose the date and time when her successor may or may not fall
on his sword at hands of those who decide whether he goes quietly or gets unceremoniously dumped
like last week's stale bread as price for the large collection of all the past sins he was party to ;)

Fancy Hipkins potentially being made to look like the Turkey looking forward to Christmas
by the tired exhausted burnt out Spintress jumping off the band wagon in a hurry ;)

[dobby41]

Luxon doing a lot of arm waving trying to be relevant in the Auckland emergency.
Sad to watch!

[Panda-NZ-]

Luxon doing a lot of arm waving trying to be relevant in the Auckland emergency.
Sad to watch!

Did he visit some cafes while he was there. They're the ones doing it tough apparently.

[blackcap]

Luxon doing a lot of arm waving trying to be relevant in the Auckland emergency.
Sad to watch!

Cinders used to do a heck of a lot of arm waving too... why be disparaging about arm waving? :)

[dobby41]

Cinders used to do a heck of a lot of arm waving too... why be disparaging about arm waving? :)

Are you saying Luxon is like Ardern?

'Arm waving' is used as a figure of speech rather than literal.

[blackcap]

Are you saying Luxon is like Ardern?

'Arm waving' is used as a figure of speech rather than literal.

Haha well I did not see Luxon's speech, so I took your post literally. But yeah I probably put Luxon up with Ardern as dead set useless.

[tim23]

A bit unusual that she also chose the date and time when her successor may or may not fall
on his sword at hands of those who decide whether he goes quietly or gets unceremoniously dumped
like last week's stale bread as price for the large collection of all the past sins he was party to ;)

Fancy Hipkins potentially being made to look like the Turkey looking forward to Christmas
by the tired exhausted burnt out Spintress jumping off the band wagon in a hurry ;)
Yesterday’s Polls (yes those annoying rigged ones) suggests the turkey may be Luxon - the other Chris😀

[Bill Smith]

What the polls showed was how despised ardern was by a decent %age of voters. Hipkins is in the job a couple of days and has done nothing and a poll gives him a dead cat bounce. All that says, is the ardern was more useless than her replacement.

[nztx]

Yesterday’s Polls (yes those annoying rigged ones) suggests the turkey may be Luxon - the other Chris😀


Are you sure you're not a turkey ? .. and a pretty stupid petty one at that .. ;)

[tim23]

What the polls showed was how despised ardern was by a decent %age of voters. Hipkins is in the job a couple of days and has done nothing and a poll gives him a dead cat bounce. All that says, is the ardern was more useless than her replacement.
It doesn’t say that at all - that’s just your take on it.

[dobby41]

What the polls showed was how despised ardern was by a decent %age of voters. Hipkins is in the job a couple of days and has done nothing and a poll gives him a dead cat bounce. All that says, is the ardern was more useless than her replacement.

This always happens with a new leader - they get a bit of a honeymoon period.

What it does show is Luxon is useless - if Ardern was so hated he should be way up in the polls - he isn't!

[777]

This always happens with a new leader - they get a bit of a honeymoon period.

What it does show is Luxon is useless - if Ardern was so hated he should be way up in the polls - he isn't!

To quote tim23,

"that’s just your take on it."

[tim23]

To quote tim23,

"that’s just your take on it."
Not a bad take Dobby- I’d be guessing that Luxon would have been very disappointed with those rigged polls.😀

[dobby41]

To quote tim23,

"that’s just your take on it."

You're right - it is my opinion and I didn't dress it up as a fact (though the 1st bit is a fact - new leaders traditionally get a honeymoon period).

[Panda-NZ-]

National discovers climate change... for this month only.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/02/national-party-leader-christopher-luxon-calls-for-investment-in-infrastructure-climate-adaptation.html

What will they do about constantly flooded farmland mixed in with droughts...

Though they have rarely been about the future (see super fund changes, little to no infrastructure investment for their record immigration levels etc).

[nztx]

National discovers climate change... for this month only.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/02/national-party-leader-christopher-luxon-calls-for-investment-in-infrastructure-climate-adaptation.html

What will they do about constantly flooded farmland mixed in with droughts...

Though they have rarely been about the future (see super fund changes, little to no infrastructure investment for their record immigration levels etc).

How come these disasters only happen to turn into a major Crisis with Labour in the hot seats ?

and then usually the purse gets thrown around on the loose when the Left think there are pockets to be plumbed
and stripped to pay for their stupid mistakes and excesses :)

[tim23]

How come these disasters only happen to turn into a major Crisis with Labour in the hot seats ?

and then usually the purse gets thrown around on the loose when the Left think there are pockets to be plumbed
and stripped to pay for their stupid mistakes and excesses :)
Oh dear - another conspiracy theorist. You conveniently forget the big earthquake happened under National but hey never let the facts get in the way of a good story 😀

[nztx]

Oh dear - another conspiracy theorist. You conveniently forget the big earthquake happened under National but hey never let the facts get in the way of a good story ��

Just testing to see if you're really awake, not impaired or further lost strands of IQ
haven't gone AWOL ..

That's one disaster, while how many under the current Govt so far
not including fallen excuses for Labour's fill in spinning leadership ? :)

[tim23]

Just testing to see if you're really awake, not impaired or further lost strands of IQ
haven't gone AWOL ..

That's one disaster, while how many under the current Govt so far
not including fallen excuses for Labour's fill in spinning leadership ? :)

What about Pike River ? I think k you forgot that?

[iceman]

What about Pike River ? I think k you forgot that?

I think you should look into Andrew Little’s and his Union’s disgraceful part in that

[nztx]

I think you should look into Andrew Little’s and his Union’s disgraceful part in that


Just forget the further screw ups subsequently - Health portfolio will be one

[nztx]

What about Pike River ? I think k you forgot that?


$60m or $100 m further deposited in a dark hole by whom to achieve very Little ;)

When will a new Ministry - the 'Ministry of Labour's Stuff Ups' be rolled out to smooth over
all the chapters of stuff ups and whoopsies by the current clueless Labour mob ? ;)

[tim23]

I think you should look into Andrew Little’s and his Union’s disgraceful part in that

Please elaborate by all means.

[iceman]

Please elaborate by all means.

There are countless articles and pages of comments about it, including on this website. If you are interested, I'm sure you've read it or can find it.

[Bill Smith]

Please elaborate by all means.

A disinterested Kiwi would have some understanding of the matter. But you are not disinterested are you Tim (IQ) 23?

[stoploss]

Please elaborate by all means.

If you can't find it here is one article worth reading.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/05/21/pike-m21.html

[tim23]

A disinterested Kiwi would have some understanding of the matter. But you are not disinterested are you Tim (IQ) 23?

Thanks- I’ve read a few books including the one by Rebecca Mackie - was a shareholder too. I can’t recall Andrew Little being panned but the wound down mining inspectorate was an issue. i.e too many mines and quarries but too few staff to adequately inspect them.

[Blue Skies]

Maureen Pugh, climate denier in the middle of the most tragic & destructive weather event in our recored history, another brilliant member of the National team, all pulling together, all rowing the same way!
What a circus, how tone deaf, what an insult, how do these people get through the selection process ?

Wasn't Maureen the MP former leader Simon Bridges called ducking useless, but later shot up the ranks under Judith Collins (in return for her fealty,) who described her as "one of the most popular MP's in our caucus" & "she's such a genuine person."


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/02/national-mp-maureen-pugh-regrets-her-unclear-comments-on-believing-in-man-made-climate-change.html

[jonu]

Maureen Pugh, climate denier in the middle of the most tragic & destructive weather event in our recored history, another brilliant member of the National team, all pulling together, all rowing the same way!
What a circus, how tone deaf, what an insult, how do these people get through the selection process ?

Wasn't Maureen the MP former leader Simon Bridges called ducking useless, but later shot up the ranks under Judith Collins (in return for her fealty,) who described her as "one of the most popular MP's in our caucus" & "she's such a genuine person."


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/02/national-mp-maureen-pugh-regrets-her-unclear-comments-on-believing-in-man-made-climate-change.html

I don't believe it is a crime to hold the quite sensible opinion that the science is far from settled as to what degree climate change is human influenced. Indeed that seems a far more sensible position than the dogma laid out by climate alarmists.

[Bjauck]

I don't believe it is a crime to hold the quite sensible opinion that the science is far from settled as to what degree climate change is human influenced. Indeed that seems a far more sensible position than the dogma laid out by climate alarmists.
I agree that the degree of human influence is not settled upon. That does not mean mean there is no urgency behind our environmental protection and behaviour modification.

[jonu]

I agree that the degree of human influence is not settled upon. That does not mean mean there is no urgency behind our environmental protection and behaviour modification.

Yes, but killing our agricultural economy, and food production worldwide, is not the answer.

[blackcap]

I agree that the degree of human influence is not settled upon. That does not mean mean there is no urgency behind our environmental protection and behaviour modification.

Agree about behaviour modification like not building on flood plains etc or thinking it is a good idea to build houses on the edges of cliffs.

What is more worrying is that Luxon (what a tosser) is pretty much being a totalitarian thug and not allowing his MP's to stray from the dogma that he seems to agree with. He just lost himself a vote and I know others that are becoming increasingly alarmed and disappointed in his wishy washyness.

[Bjauck]

Agree about behaviour modification like not building on flood plains etc or thinking it is a good idea to build houses on the edges of cliffs.

What is more worrying is that Luxon (what a tosser) is pretty much being a totalitarian thug and not allowing his MP's to stray from the dogma that he seems to agree with. He just lost himself a vote and I know others that are becoming increasingly alarmed and disappointed in his wishy washyness.
That is the thing with MMP - if you want to have a chance of occupying the treasury benches you have to appeal to the centre ground. The same thing happened to Ardern. She had to tone down the “comrade” policies and then tried to introduce “unpopular” policies under the radar.

We can look at the UK as to how we used to be. The Tories got just under 44% of the popular vote in 2019 yet got a landslide majority in parliament. They have been able to introduce all types of radical right wing policy from hard Brexit to slashing taxes. It was the market reaction as opposed to parliamentary opposition that put paid to their tax slashing. A NZ version of Johnson or Truss is more unlikely under our MMP as opposed to the UK’s FPP.

[Panda-NZ-]

The UK workforce is always on strike.. thankfully we don't have that kind of division.

[Bjauck]

The UK workforce is always on strike.. thankfully we don't have that kind of division.
Actually it was as recently as 2018 that the UK strike rate was the lowest since 1893. This last year, the rate was the highest since the 1980’s and Thatcher, thanks to austerity, cost of living, Brexit and Tory mis-rule.
https://www.vox.com/2023/2/4/23582205/labor-strikes-britain-brexit-inflation-uk

[Panda-NZ-]

Luxon thinks we should be borrowing rather than taxing more, when interest rates/yields are sky high.

Not that good at economics is he.

[Blue Skies]

Luxon thinks we should be borrowing rather than taxing more, when interest rates/yields are sky high.

Not that good at economics is he.


Agreed.
This is going to cost tens of billions, some farmers both in Hawkes Bay but also up North I've heard are going to walk off their land, & the govt, i.e. we the taxpayer may have to buy their land. Then there's all the businesses which will fail, unable to pay wages & financial support needed for all these people, the bridges & roads destroyed, railway lines damaged etc.
It's unprecedented & as the govt are saying it would be irresponsible not to look at all options how to pay for the rebuild.

Yet Luxon is straight into politicking the disaster, demanding the govt rule out ways to pay for this, things like the Queensland Disaster tax, while we're still searching for bodies & before we even have anything remotely like a complete picture of what we're dealing with.
Makes me so annoyed, how bloody irresponsible.
And to continue with tax cuts while having to borrow billions to pay for this is just financial vandalism.
Where are the adults in the National Party caucus?

Fortunately the govt books are in a sound position due to the astute management of Grant Robertson.

[jonu]

Agreed.
This is going to cost tens of billions, some farmers both in Hawkes Bay but also up North I've heard are going to walk off their land, & the govt, i.e. we the taxpayer may have to buy their land. Then there's all the businesses which will fail, unable to pay wages & financial support needed for all these people, the bridges & roads destroyed, railway lines damaged etc.
It's unprecedented & as the govt are saying it would be irresponsible not to look at all options how to pay for the rebuild.

Yet Luxon is straight into politicking the disaster, demanding the govt rule out ways to pay for this, things like the Queensland Disaster tax, while we're still searching for bodies & before we even have anything remotely like a complete picture of what we're dealing with.
Makes me so annoyed, how bloody irresponsible.
And to continue with tax cuts while having to borrow billions to pay for this is just financial vandalism.
Where are the adults in the National Party caucus?

Fortunately the govt books are in a sound position due to the astute management of Grant Robertson.

If Luxon is politicking the disaster by responding to what he says are bad policy ideas, surely the same must be said of the party promoting the policy.
If Luxon is irresponsible for saying this before the full extent of the problem is known, surely the same of the other side.

Hypocrisy at its finest from Blue Skies. Luxon is doing his job in a democracy. Labour doesn't get a free ride now that the media bribes have run out. Ardern knew this and it was clearly a factor in the rat deserting the sinking ship.

[iceman]

If Luxon is politicking the disaster by responding to what he says are bad policy ideas, surely the same must be said of the party promoting the policy.
If Luxon is irresponsible for saying this before the full extent of the problem is known, surely the same of the other side.

Hypocrisy at its finest from Blue Skies. Luxon is doing his job in a democracy. Labour doesn't get a free ride now that the media bribes have run out. Ardern knew this and it was clearly a factor in the rat deserting the sinking ship.

My thoughts exactly !

[Blue Skies]

If Luxon is politicking the disaster by responding to what he says are bad policy ideas, surely the same must be said of the party promoting the policy.
If Luxon is irresponsible for saying this before the full extent of the problem is known, surely the same of the other side.

Hypocrisy at its finest from Blue Skies. Luxon is doing his job in a democracy. Labour doesn't get a free ride now that the media bribes have run out. Ardern knew this and it was clearly a factor in the rat deserting the sinking ship.



Sorry, I don't get you.

The govt is keeping all options on the table and not ruling a mix of anything out until we have a more complete picture of the scale of the disaster (which we don't have yet & certainly not with more heavy rain forecast this weekend).
'All options on the table' at this early stage is not a policy, let alone a bad idea!

National is demanding the govt commit to ruling out a small Disaster tax like Australia did, of how we as a country pay for the rebuild, before we even know even know the scale of the disaster let alone the cost.
That's irresponsible financial management.

Already the Reserve Bank governor & various economic commentators haver said borrowing money (National's policy) to pay for tax cuts & the rebuild is bad policy, will cause inflation, will cause interest rates to rise, will cause increased mortgage rates, will hurt small business, will pass costs on to future generations, will hurt low & middle income NZ'ers working for wages & salaries rather than the wealthy.

[jonu]

Sorry, I don't get you.

The govt is keeping all options on the table and not ruling a mix of anything out until we have a more complete picture of the scale of the disaster (which we don't have yet & certainly not with more heavy rain forecast this weekend).
'All options on the table' at this early stage is not a policy, let alone a bad idea!

National is demanding the govt commit to ruling out a small Disaster tax like Australia did, of how we as a country pay for the rebuild, before we even know even know the scale of the disaster let alone the cost.
That's irresponsible financial management.

Already the Reserve Bank governor & various economic commentators haver said borrowing money (National's policy) to pay for tax cuts & the rebuild is bad policy, will cause inflation, will cause interest rates to rise, will cause increased mortgage rates, will hurt small business, will pass costs on to future generations, will hurt low & middle income NZ'ers working for wages & salaries rather than the wealthy.

Sadly the RBNZ governor has no credibility in this debate. He has fueled all those concerns himself! As has Robertson with his helicopter spending.

[Blue Skies]

Sadly the RBNZ governor has no credibility in this debate. He has fueled all those concerns himself! As has Robertson with his helicopter spending.

NZ is in a far stronger position than you realise, just look at the figures.
What happened to our good old Kiwi resilience, why are some so down on the country all the time when comparatively, the current weather disaster aside, we are doing so well?
Why are we so misinformed?

Looking at the figures, does this modify your opinion in any way?
If you still believe NZ is such a disaster, how would you describe all these other countries with much higher dept to GDP ?

Govt debt to GDP ratios -

NZ 34.9% (still lower than in 2013 during the GFC)

Australia. 47.7%
Hong Kong 47.6%
Ireland. 49%
Netherlands. 49%
India. 54.9%
Germany. 66.4%
Canada. 71.3%
EU. 93%
UK. 100.2%
Spain 115.6%
US. 123.4%
Singapore 168%

[jonu]

NZ is in a far stronger position than you realise, just look at the figures.
What happened to our good old Kiwi resilience, why are some so down on the country all the time when comparatively, the current weather disaster aside, we are doing so well?
Why are we so misinformed?

Looking at the figures, does this modify your opinion in any way?
If you still believe NZ is such a disaster, how would you describe all these other countries with much higher dept to GDP ?

Govt debt to GDP ratios -

NZ 34.9% (still lower than in 2013 during the GFC)

Australia. 47.7%
Hong Kong 47.6%
Ireland. 49%
Netherlands. 49%
India. 54.9%
Germany. 66.4%
Canada. 71.3%
EU. 93%
UK. 100.2%
Spain 115.6%
US. 123.4%
Singapore 168%

It depends on what the debt was used for. Large swathes of Robertson's spending and policy have seen an inflationary inducing surge in asset values and massive wealth transfer to the rich, away from the working class Labour purports to represent. Labour's delivery on infrastructure spend has been appallingly inadequate.

In other words, Robertson has run up debt to buy voters...and will continue to do so. Saying we aren't in as much hock as others doesn't make me feel any better, especially if that debt is unnecessary or poorly spent.

[Panda-NZ-]

Hypocrisy at its finest from Blue Skies. Luxon is doing his job in a democracy. Labour doesn't get a free ride now that the media bribes have run out. Ardern knew this and it was clearly a factor in the rat deserting the sinking ship.

Arguing against a flood tax is like saying to these National party electorates, they don't deserve to be rebuilt (with money from auckland).

[jonu]

Arguing against a flood tax is like saying to these National party electorates, they don't deserve to be rebuilt (with money from auckland).

No, it isn't.

[westerly]

If Luxon is politicking the disaster by responding to what he says are bad policy ideas, surely the same must be said of the party promoting the policy.
If Luxon is irresponsible for saying this before the full extent of the problem is known, surely the same of the other side.

Hypocrisy at its finest from Blue Skies. Luxon is doing his job in a democracy. Labour doesn't get a free ride now that the media bribes have run out. Ardern knew this and it was clearly a factor in the rat deserting the sinking ship.

Typical reply from the rabid right, worried Labour will return. As for National, what policy, just the usual tax cuts ?

westerly

[777]

Typical reply from the rabid right, worried Labour will return. As for National, what policy, just the usual tax cuts ?

westerly

Typical reply from the rabid left, worried that National will become Government. As for Labour, just the usual "every thing is fine, we are well positioned, just trust us". Scary stuff.

[Panda-NZ-]

Typical reply from the rabid left, worried that National will become Government. As for Labour, just the usual "every thing is fine, we are well positioned, just trust us". Scary stuff.

Labour is well positioned to win over a few more formerly National regions due to their more realistic rebuild priorities.

[jonu]

Typical reply from the rabid right, worried Labour will return. As for National, what policy, just the usual tax cuts ?

westerly

This is the problem we have currently in world politics. The Left see basic democracy as being of the rabid Right. Why? Because they have veered so far Left that neo-Marxism is just to the Left of them, with all its authoritarian implications. The Left sure don't like to be questioned on anything these days. It's tow the Party line or be cancelled.

[jonu]

Labour is well positioned to win over a few more formerly National regions due to their more realistic rebuild priorities.

Or....existing resentment hangover from the pandemic over-reach will further solidify against Labour. Expect Hipkins and Robertson to wave the cheque book big-time. It's their only mechanism left to garner support.

[tim23]

Or....existing resentment hangover from the pandemic over-reach will further solidify against Labour. Expect Hipkins and Robertson to wave the cheque book big-time. It's their only mechanism left to garner support.

You might be right but its a bit soon to state it as a fact. I suspect at this stage future opinion polls are likely to favour Labour.

[nztx]

You might be right but its a bit soon to state it as a fact. I suspect at this stage future opinion polls are likely to favour Labour.

Not too much of Robbo's Cheque book being waved so far .. most of the book appears to have been used
or folded over cancelled .. and the poor suckers landed in the lurch have been left all on their own..

Must still be ripping out all the 'too hard' or 'no can do' pages from Robbo's 2023 Budget draft instead.

Early election in April / May - when Hipkins & Robbo fail to perform to Joe Public's extensive want's list and the chorus of screams & yells grow really loud ? ;)

[Panda-NZ-]

Not too much of Robbo's Cheque book being waved so far .. most of the book appears to have been used
or folded over cancelled .. and the poor suckers landed in the lurch have been left all on their own..

National have zero way to pay for their tax cuts or this recovery.

So far they have done anything to avoid the luxon types paying a cent more in contribution to NZ's wellbeing.

[iceman]

National have zero way to pay for their tax cuts or this recovery.

So far they have done anything to avoid the luxon types paying a cent more in a contribution to NZ's wellbeing.

I assume you are talking about the inflation adjustment for income tax brackets ? Or do you know about some other firm tax reduction policies ?

I'm sure they can come up with some brilliance like Labour taxing petrol/diesel car buyers to subsidise well of people to buy EVs. Then they don't charge us EV owners anything to maintain our roads and then top it all off with tax cuts for diesel and petrol users. Makes perfect sense !!

But hopefully they will actually come up with some policies that make sense. Lets wait until closer to the election.

[Panda-NZ-]

I assume you are talking about the inflation adjustment for income tax brackets ? Or do you know about some other firm tax reduction policies ?


They plan to get rid of the top tax rate & reduce tax for property investors.

[iceman]

They plan to get rid of the top tax rate & reduce tax for property investors.

Neither of these is an announced policy even though they have strongly indicated the tenant tax will be removed if economic conditions allow. Let's hope they do remove that silly tax policy. Tenants haven't done very well under this Government with rents up over 50% in 5 years so they deserve a break.

[Blue Skies]

Neither of these is an announced policy even though they have strongly indicated the tenant tax will be removed if economic conditions allow. Let's hope they do remove that silly tax policy. Tenants haven't done very well under this Government with rents up over 50% in 5 years so they deserve a break.


C'mon Iceman, there is no such thing as a Tenant Tax, it doesn't exist.
The thing you're referring to isn't even a tax on investors or landlords.
It's actually the removal of a tax deduction for investors, the complete opposite of a tax.

In politics we've become so calloused & used to the manipulation of language to re-frame objective facts into alternative narratives that it doesn't even raise an eyebrow anymore.
But it should & we should resist going down that path or we'll end up like America where you seem to be able to choose whatever facts suit you.
There's many scholarly articles written on the subject & here's an interesting one.

https://lithub.com/on-the-weaponization-of-language-in-a-traumatized-nation/

Getting back to the policy, removal of tax deductibility for investors.
Here's an example, I know, a lawn mowing contractor who primarily through the tax deductibility facility was able to accumulate 42 rental properties.
Since the govt removed the tax deductibility he has sold most of them & those homes are now all owner occupied with families paying off their own mortgages instead of rent to a landlord.
Isn't that so much better for communities when families have security & stability, a stake in their communities, kids have stability to stay at the same school, develop a group of friends etc. rather than the insecurity of renting?
Ultimately home insecurity leads to far higher social costs in crime, welfare benefits, truancy etc, and who picks up the costs for this - us taxpayers.

And secondly, if that was a valid reason for rental increases if it was reinstated you would immediately expect rents to decrease wouldn't you? But we know that wouldn't happen.
It's good policy with good outcomes.
Home buyers were seriously disadvantaged against investors until this was changed & both competing on same footing. That's the way the free market should operate, not giving one group an advantage over another.

[iceman]

C'mon Iceman, there is no such thing as a Tenant Tax, it doesn't exist.
The thing you're referring to isn't even a tax on investors or landlords.
It's actually the removal of a tax deduction for investors, the complete opposite of a tax.

In politics we've become so calloused & used to the manipulation of language to re-frame objective facts into alternative narratives that it doesn't even raise an eyebrow anymore.
But it should & we should resist going down that path or we'll end up like America where you seem to be able to choose whatever facts suit you.
There's many scholarly articles written on the subject & here's an interesting one.

https://lithub.com/on-the-weaponization-of-language-in-a-traumatized-nation/

Getting back to the policy, removal of tax deductibility for investors.
Here's an example, I know, a lawn mowing contractor who primarily through the tax deductibility facility was able to accumulate 42 rental properties.
Since the govt removed the tax deductibility he has sold most of them & those homes are now all owner occupied with families paying off their own mortgages instead of rent to a landlord.
Isn't that so much better for communities when families have security & stability, a stake in their communities, kids have stability to stay at the same school, develop a group of friends etc. rather than the insecurity of renting?
Ultimately home insecurity leads to far higher social costs in crime, welfare benefits, truancy etc, and who picks up the costs for this - us taxpayers.

And secondly, if that was a valid reason for rental increases if it was reinstated you would immediately expect rents to decrease wouldn't you? But we know that wouldn't happen.
It's good policy with good outcomes.
Home buyers were seriously disadvantaged against investors until this was changed & both competing on same footing. That's the way the free market should operate, not giving one group an advantage over another.

Wrong. It is NOT a tax deduction. Interest payments are a legitimate business expense and should be tax deductible like all other expenses. So the rest of your post and the example given make no sense. How you could think someone bought 42 properties thanks to "tax deductions" is beyond me.

[fungus pudding]

Wrong. It is NOT a tax deduction. Interest payments are a legitimate business expense and should be tax deductible like all other expenses. So the rest of your post and the example given make no sense. How you could think someone bought 42 properties thanks to "tax deductions" is beyond me.

Exactly. It's absurd to tax a res. landlord on turnover rather than profit.

[Bjauck]

Exactly. It's absurd to tax a res. landlord on turnover rather than profit.
I agree. It is more absurd to tax the consumer when they buy food or clothing just to survive.

[Panda-NZ-]

And secondly, if that was a valid reason for rental increases if it was reinstated you would immediately expect rents to decrease wouldn't you? But we know that wouldn't happen.
It's good policy with good outcomes.
Home buyers were seriously disadvantaged against investors until this was changed & both competing on same footing. That's the way the free market should operate, not giving one group an advantage over another.

New builds are exempt for 20 years too. National/Act consider this "too complex" to check a simple list.

Maybe for them it is which is why they shouldn't be in govt with their current set of ideas.

[dobby41]

Neither of these is an announced policy even though they have strongly indicated the tenant tax will be removed if economic conditions allow. Let's hope they do remove that silly tax policy. Tenants haven't done very well under this Government with rents up over 50% in 5 years so they deserve a break.

They were policy, then they weren't, then policy again - is anyone sure what the status is at the moment?

[iceman]

They were policy, then they weren't, then policy again - is anyone sure what the status is at the moment?

You mean like the now abandoned TVNZ-RNZ merger after $23M spent on consultants, Auckland light rail with not one cm of track laid after $60M spent and Waka Gonowhere spending $62M on advertising their "Road to Zero" marketing hoax while 2022 had the highest road toll ever recorded in NZ ?
Can't remember the cycle bridge numbers, not to mention all the other waste.

[davflaws]

2022 had the highest road toll ever recorded in NZ
Nah - less than half. I hope at least some of your other pronouncements match reality a bit more closely

[tim23]

You mean like the now abandoned TVNZ-RNZ merger after $23M spent on consultants, Auckland light rail with not one cm of track laid after $60M spent and Waka Gonowhere spending $62M on advertising their "Road to Zero" marketing hoax while 2022 had the highest road toll ever recorded in NZ ?
Can't remember the cycle bridge numbers, not to mention all the other waste.
I think you will find the road toll was at least double current rate in the 1980s suggest you google it and offer correction to your fake facts.

[777]

https://www.transport.govt.nz/statistics-and-insights/safety-road-deaths/sheet/death-on-nz-roads-since-1921

Dropped after seatbelts became compulsory.

[iceman]

Nah - less than half. I hope at least some of your other pronouncements match reality a bit more closely
Yes my bad. We had the highest Christmas & New Year road deaths in years, despite the tens of millions spent to reduce it. https://www.transport.govt.nz/statistics-and-insights/safety-road-deaths/sheet/holiday-periods

But typical of your defense of the indefensible, you have your head in the sand and ignore reality and the ridiculous waste we see from this Government on policies that achieve absolutely nothing,

[davflaws]

Yes my bad. We had the highest Christmas & New Year road deaths in years, despite all the millions spent to reduce it. https://www.transport.govt.nz/statistics-and-insights/safety-road-deaths/sheet/holiday-periods

Fine - you got the facts wrong and have now corrected your error.


But typical of your defence of the indefensible, you have your head in the sand and ignore reality and the ridiculous waste we see from this Government on policies that achieve absolutely nothing,
Not quite so fine - I attacked your position on the basis of its factual inaccuracy.

You are attacking me more generally and disparaging what you assume to be my position on the basis of those assumptions about my beliefs. You make the same old right wing claims about "ridiculous waste" and policies that achieve "absolutely nothing".

We all have our biases. You think I ignore the reality of a bad govt. I think you are altogether too ready to find any reason to bag a reasonably good one.

Whether the spending on trying to reduce the road toll was ridiculously wasteful and achieved absolutely nothing is ultimately a matter of opinion. The fact that the Xmas Holiday road toll was the highest for years supports that opinion, but the strength of that support is questionable, given the small numbers involved. The other holiday weekend numbers went down - but those numbers were even smaller.

Unless things have markedly deteriorated in the processes of policy development, implementation and evaluation in the 25 years since I left the Public Service (which I very much doubt, since I have rellies working at policy level and I talk to them), Waka Kotahi will have specified and quite explicit targets and milestones to meet in specified timeframes. If they don't meet them, both Treasury and the PM's Dept will be all over them like a rash.

[Baa_Baa]

Waka Kotahi will have specified and quite explicit targets and milestones to meet in specified timeframes. If they don't meet them, both Treasury and the PM's Dept will be all over them like a rash.

Not necessarily, they just change (lower) the targets. And FYI, it's Ministry of Transport, NZTA and Police who have joint responsibilities in the policy and implementation of the "Road to Zero"; not just NZTA.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/481315/government-agencies-admit-trouble-achieving-road-to-zero-targets this is fairly recent.

[Panda-NZ-]

We all have our biases. You think I ignore the reality of a bad govt. I think you are altogether too ready to find any reason to bag a reasonably good one.


Iceman would like to see it spent on good areas like boot camps and tax cuts for the aready wealthy.

[777]

Iceman would like to see it spent on good areas like boot camps and tax cuts for the aready wealthy.

Is there anything else you think about? You have an unhealthy fixation on the same thing.Day after day.
What is the bet that when National raise the tax brackets you will be screaming tax cuts for the wealthy. If Labour raise the the tax brackets then you will say they were over due but a good thing.

[Panda-NZ-]

Is there anything else you think about? You have an unhealthy fixation on the same thing.Day after day.
What is the bet that when National raise the tax brackets you will be screaming tax cuts for the wealthy. If Labour raise the the tax brackets then you will say they were over due but a good thing.

*If, they do have a history of breaking promises on tax .

[Blue Skies]

Luxon says they will scrap Labour's water reforms & restore control to the local councils!
What an absolute disaster for the country.
The local councils & councillors have proved over & over they are incapable of providing clean reliable water infrastructure or enforcing & prosecuting breaches.
So more of the same, ignore the overwhelming evidence, underfunded, under-regulated, councillors beholden to various powerful interests rather than the individual citizen.
The politics of Trump.

[davflaws]

Not necessarily, they just change (lower) the targets. And FYI, it's Ministry of Transport, NZTA and Police who have joint responsibilities in the policy and implementation of the "Road to Zero"; not just NZTA.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/481315/government-agencies-admit-trouble-achieving-road-to-zero-targets this is fairly recent.

Thank you for the FYI clarification. Of course you are right. It was stupid and careless of me to reply to Iceman's claim without checking more fully.

But they don't "just" lower the targets. Betcha there will have been all sorts of angst, reporting upwards, and please explains downwards, before the targets were changed. After further analysis, targets will have been changed only after some people a lot smarter than me had been convinced that that was the best course (as against reallocation of resources).

[Baa_Baa]

Thank you for the FYI clarification. Of course you are right. It was stupid and careless of me to reply to Iceman's claim without checking more fully.

But they don't "just" lower the targets. Betcha there will have been all sorts of angst, reporting upwards, and please explains downwards, before the targets were changed. After further analysis, targets will have been changed only after some people a lot smarter than me had been convinced that that was the best course (as against reallocation of resources).

Well that is correct, they don't "just" lower the targets. As a previous policy analyst you will know that those policy folks in government very closely research, in great detail, before and after developing policy (and law), to see if it's working, or not.

In this case like so many others under 5 years of ambitious government, the policies set targets that turn out to be overly optimistic and ambitious, and it is the policy analysts that see and realise that first. Some inane policies end up being framed in law with legislated 'go live' dates, many of which are patently unachievable, hence delays in implementing, or reduced scopes, or outright failures of what is being implemented.

Then they, the policy people, at their own initiative, write up elaborate papers with all sorts of justifications, for the Minister, to choose one of their recommended options. Again, in this case the Minister will have chosen the option to reduce the targets, and not to reduce the efforts implementing the remedies and treatments.

I see it every day, that 5 years of ambitious government, that has put Agencies under enormous pressures to deliver in unreasonable timeframes, what turned out to be overly optimistic and ambitious policy and laws, even when they lobbied the Minister that the implementation would be unachievable in the timeframe.

The Agencies tasked with implementing the policies and law, are the first to realise when things aren't working out, and it is them who are way-ahead of the Ministers in re-writing policy, be it to alter regulations, adjust implementation times, change measures, alter targets; and only then to they lobby the Minister to approve one of the options they present.

Very rarely have I seen the reverse, where the Minister, out of the blue, leans on the Agencies to 'change' things, especially when it makes them look like back-peddling and exposed to reputational risk. Except in those infrequent occasions where the media cried fowl and force the Ministers hand to do something.

Usually the policy people are many months or years ahead of their Minister, and quite aware of whether their work/laws are achieving what they set out to achieve. Remember as well, Ministers change a lot more frequently than the collective IP of an Agency or Ministry policy department(s), that is enduring.

Also perhaps worth pointing out, more often than not, Ministers having been elected by the public, are often far less knowledgeable about things than their Agencies or Ministries policy people, such as the subject matter itself, how practical and long it takes to implement things, and what measures to put in place to check whether the policies/laws are working.

So, in summary, it is the MoT who are primarily responsible for the policies in this particular case, whereas NZTA and Police are the implementers. The monitoring and measuring by MoT, NZTA, Police found out that the targets were not and could not be met, and the policy people put a range of options to the Minister, of which reducing the targets is clearly the chosen option. In this case, it hasn't required a change in law, whereas many other cases do.

This is not confined to "Road to Zero", it is prevalent across all of the government agencies that have endured 5 years of overly ambitious and optimistic government, emissions, climate, transport, health, housing, policing, corrections ... and on and on.

[iceman]

Luxon says they will scrap Labour's water reforms & restore control to the local councils!
What an absolute disaster for the country.
The local councils & councillors have proved over & over they are incapable of providing clean reliable water infrastructure or enforcing & prosecuting breaches.
So more of the same, ignore the overwhelming evidence, underfunded, under-regulated, councillors beholden to various powerful interests rather than the individual citizen.
The politics of Trump.

Many councils like us here in Nelson have invested large amounts of money in our water infrastructure (the latest large project finishing tomorrow on budget and 2 months ahead of schedule). We don't appreciate them being stolen from us and all say in the management of them taken away from us. Many councils are in the same situation. You make it sound like all councils have failed, which is far from reality.

[iceman]

Iceman would like to see it spent on good areas like boot camps and tax cuts for the aready wealthy.

Bootcamps and getting tougher on crime yes. Income tax cuts I am not in favour of at this time, except brackets being inflation adjusted, like I think they should be every year. So again you just make that stuff up. It is madness to keep the income tax brackets unchanged for years and even decades. Why should a primary school teacher be into the 33% tax rate ?

[davflaws]

Well that is correct, they don't "just" lower the targets. As a previous policy analyst you will know that those policy folks in government very closely research, in great detail, before and after developing policy (and law), to see if it's working, or not.

In this case like so many others under 5 years of ambitious government, the policies set targets that turn out to be overly optimistic and ambitious, and it is the policy analysts that see and realise that first. Some inane policies end up being framed in law with legislated 'go live' dates, many of which are patently unachievable, hence delays in implementing, or reduced scopes, or outright failures of what is being implemented.

Then they, the policy people, at their own initiative, write up elaborate papers with all sorts of justifications, for the Minister, to choose one of their recommended options. Again, in this case the Minister will have chosen the option to reduce the targets, and not to reduce the efforts implementing the remedies and treatments.

I see it every day, that 5 years of ambitious government, that has put Agencies under enormous pressures to deliver in unreasonable timeframes, what turned out to be overly optimistic and ambitious policy and laws, even when they lobbied the Minister that the implementation would be unachievable in the timeframe.

The Agencies tasked with implementing the policies and law, are the first to realise when things aren't working out, and it is them who are way-ahead of the Ministers in re-writing policy, be it to alter regulations, adjust implementation times, change measures, alter targets; and only then to they lobby the Minister to approve one of the options they present.

Very rarely have I seen the reverse, where the Minister, out of the blue, leans on the Agencies to 'change' things, especially when it makes them look like back-peddling and exposed to reputational risk. Except in those infrequent occasions where the media cried fowl and force the Ministers hand to do something.

Usually the policy people are many months or years ahead of their Minister, and quite aware of whether their work/laws are achieving what they set out to achieve. Remember as well, Ministers change a lot more frequently than the collective IP of an Agency or Ministry policy department(s), that is enduring.

Also perhaps worth pointing out, more often than not, Ministers having been elected by the public, are often far less knowledgeable about things than their Agencies or Ministries policy people, such as the subject matter itself, how practical and long it takes to implement things, and what measures to put in place to check whether the policies/laws are working.

So, in summary, it is the MoT who are primarily responsible for the policies in this particular case, whereas NZTA and Police are the implementers. The monitoring and measuring by MoT, NZTA, Police found out that the targets were not and could not be met, and the policy people put a range of options to the Minister, of which reducing the targets is clearly the chosen option. In this case, it hasn't required a change in law, whereas many other cases do.

This is not confined to "Road to Zero", it is prevalent across all of the government agencies that have endured 5 years of overly ambitious and optimistic government, emissions, climate, transport, health, housing, policing, corrections ... and on and on.

Mate! That is worth framing! A brilliant exposition of how things are done currently, and a reasonable explanation for a lot that has happened over the last five years

[iceman]

Mate! That is worth framing! A brilliant exposition of how things are done currently, and a reasonable explanation for a lot that has happened over the last five years

I second that. A great post Baa Baa. Thank you.

[Bjauck]

…
This is not confined to "Road to Zero", it is prevalent across all of the government agencies that have endured 5 years of overly ambitious and optimistic government, emissions, climate, transport, health, housing, policing, corrections ... and on and on. Spot on! This was a premise for that classic sitcom “Yes Minister”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4tXPx5Bk5w

[Blue Skies]

I don't understand, we know esp after the cyclone damage in Northland, Auckland, Coromandel & Hawkes Bay, fixing water infrastructure is going to cost many billions & local councils don't have the money.

But National's Simon Watta says on Q&A today there will be no increase in rates under National's water plan, while yesterday Luxon says councils will have to fix & maintain water infrastructure "& there will have to be enough money coming in from either rates or user charges to cover the maintenance, depreciation & investment in new water infrastructure."

They're contradicting each other!

Imagine the water bills & rates people re going to be hit with!

[fungus pudding]

I don't understand, we know esp after the cyclone damage in Northland, Auckland, Coromandel & Hawkes Bay, fixing water infrastructure is going to cost many billions & local councils don't have the money.

But National's Simon Watta says on Q&A today there will be no increase in rates under National's water plan, while yesterday Luxon says councils will have to fix & maintain water infrastructure "& there will have to be enough money coming in from either rates or user charges to cover the maintenance, depreciation & investment in new water infrastructure."

They're contradicting each other!

Imagine the water bills & rates people re going to be hit with!

In the words of Milton Friedman 'there's no such thing as a free lunch'. but of course the true socialists are perfectly happy as long as someone else pays for it.

[jonu]

I don't understand, we know esp after the cyclone damage in Northland, Auckland, Coromandel & Hawkes Bay, fixing water infrastructure is going to cost many billions & local councils don't have the money.

But National's Simon Watta says on Q&A today there will be no increase in rates under National's water plan, while yesterday Luxon says councils will have to fix & maintain water infrastructure "& there will have to be enough money coming in from either rates or user charges to cover the maintenance, depreciation & investment in new water infrastructure."

They're contradicting each other!

Imagine the water bills & rates people re going to be hit with!

Hmmm, it sounds like you swallowed Nanaia's Water board of Scotland BS hook line and sinker. If Councils stick to their knitting, there will be enough to provide the services they are there to provide.
Remember the Central government push to do away with water tanks in urban areas? That went well didn't it? They also extended it to rural communities on the basis of a supposed health crisis being caused by contaminated tanks. Now we also have rural communities that are less self reliant than they were. That worked out well in the recent storm (Not!)
Genius!

[winner69]

Poor old Rob Campbell upset a few with his remarks on Nats Three Waters. But he’s probably right on the ball.

Rob Campbell, chair of Te Whatu Ora, was critical of National's Three Waters announcement on Sunday on LinkedIn.

"What on earth would make anyone think this was a sensible idea for debt raising alone, let alone the managment (sic) and delivery of the tasks," he wrote.

"Geographic and social inequities deepening while the infrastructure rots.

"I can only think that this is a thin disguise for the dog whistle on 'co-governance'.

"Christopher Luxon might be able to rescue his party from stupidity on climate change but rescuing this from a well he has dug himself might be harder."

[iceman]

Poor old Rob Campbell upset a few with his remarks on Nats Three Waters. But he’s probably right on the ball.

Rob Campbell, chair of Te Whatu Ora, was critical of National's Three Waters announcement on Sunday on LinkedIn.

"What on earth would make anyone think this was a sensible idea for debt raising alone, let alone the managment (sic) and delivery of the tasks," he wrote.

"Geographic and social inequities deepening while the infrastructure rots.

"I can only think that this is a thin disguise for the dog whistle on 'co-governance'.

"Christopher Luxon might be able to rescue his party from stupidity on climate change but rescuing this from a well he has dug himself might be harder."

Poor old Rob may just be disappointed at the potentially lost yet another well paid Government job opportunity !

[Panda-NZ-]

Poor old Rob Campbell upset a few with his remarks on Nats Three Waters. But he’s probably right on the ball.


They accuse Labour of getting nothing done but want to repeal lots of things they did.

Vote for us, to be certain that nothing gets done.

[Balance]

They accuse Labour of getting nothing done but want to repeal lots of things they did.

Vote for us, to be certain that nothing gets done.

Not doing anything is better than Labour wasting tens of billions of dollars on making things worse.

[dobby41]

National's answer to 3 Waters is to do the same as what is already being done and expect a different result because they said it should.
All that they have outlined is already a requirement for councils but them not doing it has created the issues.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/et-voila-heres-something-someone-prepared-a-little-earlier
Et voilà! Here’s something someone else prepared a little earlier

[nztx]

Not doing anything is better than Labour wasting tens of billions of dollars on making things worse.


Indeed , it seems very true :)

[iceman]

National's answer to 3 Waters is to do the same as what is already being done and expect a different result because they said it should.
All that they have outlined is already a requirement for councils but them not doing it has created the issues.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/et-voila-heres-something-someone-prepared-a-little-earlier
Et voilà! Here’s something someone else prepared a little earlier

Not so. The policy proposes a different way of funding the required investment that is not and has not been accessible for Councils to date. An important difference.

[davflaws]

Not so. The policy proposes a different way of funding the required investment that is not and has not been accessible for Councils to date. An important difference.

It is an iimportant difference - but the problems are about more than funding - tho that is certainly a very big part of the situation.
My understanding is that many (if not most) of the smaller councils also lack the necessary planning, engineering, and technical expertise to do what is needed.

[Blue Skies]

It is an iimportant difference - but the problems are about more than funding - tho that is certainly a very big part of the situation.
My understanding is that many (if not most) of the smaller councils also lack the necessary planning, engineering, and technical expertise to do what is needed.


This is absolutely a major and obvious flaw.
Over & over again councillors have proven to not have the necessary expertise, or too beholden to lobby groups, e.g. agriculture, industry or ratepayer groups etc to plan develop & maintain water infrastructure.
To just keep repeating the same flawed model is beyond absurd!
The model doesn't work!
We know that from repeated experience.
How blind can anyone be.

And how are councils with large areas but small populations, e.g. like Ruapehu, going to pay for all the necessary water infrastructure. The water rates or general rates in those areas would be astronomical for the ratepayers.

[777]

And what expertise would the heads of 3 waters have?

[nztx]

This is absolutely a major and obvious flaw.
Over & over again councillors have proven to not have the necessary expertise, or too beholden to lobby groups, e.g. agriculture, industry or ratepayer groups etc to plan develop & maintain water infrastructure.
To just keep repeating the same flawed model is beyond absurd!
The model doesn't work!
We know that from repeated experience.
How blind can anyone be.

And how are councils with large areas but small populations, e.g. like Ruapehu, going to pay for all the necessary water infrastructure. The water rates or general rates in those areas would be astronomical for the ratepayers.


They have in the past .. what makes you think cozy Quazi Govt Empires centralised with no local knowledge
will do the job any better ? Many of the locals are probably rural, on farms & in small settlement
- who knows they probably paid themselves to put in their own water, wells, septic tanks etc etc ;)

Then some Govt appointed goons will sooner or later work out that there is a portion of the locals
which dont need to & have never used all of the things 3 Idiots on Water thought they would ;)

[jonu]

And what expertise would the heads of 3 waters have?

You'd have to ask Tuku Morgan from Tainui who has been appointed to head the Northern body! The same Tuku who rarked up Ngati Whatua at Te Matatini. That's not going to end well. But for now Nanaia has her toadie in place.

[Blue Skies]

They have in the past .. what makes you think cozy Quazi Govt Empires centralised with no local knowledge
will do the job any better ? Many of the locals are probably rural, on farms & in small settlement
- who knows they probably paid themselves to put in their own water, wells, septic tanks etc etc ;)

Then some Govt appointed goons will sooner or later work out that there is a portion of the locals
which dont need to & have never used all of the things 3 Idiots on Water thought they would ;)



Haha....oh yeah right great, we'll just tell the residents of Wellington, flooded regions of Auckland, to dig their own water wells, put in their own septic tanks in their back yards, yeah that'll solve the problems !
Yeah septic tanks would have prevented the flooding problems in Hawkes Bay & Northland, & parts of Auckland, why didn't the council think of this.
You may not be quite ready yet for the outside world. :)

[nztx]

Haha....oh yeah right great, we'll just tell the residents of Wellington, flooded regions of Auckland, to dig their own water wells, put in their own septic tanks in their back yards, yeah that'll solve the problems !
Yeah septic tanks would have prevented the flooding problems in Hawkes Bay & Northland, & parts of Auckland, why didn't the council think of this.
You may not be quite ready yet for the outside world. :)


The outside world may be left wondering if the lights were all out or the bulbs had blown before that effort ;)

[iceman]

And what expertise would the heads of 3 waters have?

That is exactly the point. The proposed system is fundamentally flawed in stealing all of the country's water infrastructure from it's rightful owners (ratepayers) to be overseen by Government and Iwi appointed "specialists".
Just like the polytechs and health system and see where that has got us.

[jonu]

That is exactly the point. The proposed system is fundamentally flawed in stealing all of the country's water infrastructure from it's rightful owners (ratepayers) to be overseen by Government and Iwi appointed "specialists".
Just like the polytechs and health system and see where that has got us.

Never fear, it's in Tuku's (Nanaia's) hands.

[Blue Skies]

That is exactly the point. The proposed system is fundamentally flawed in stealing all of the country's water infrastructure from it's rightful owners (ratepayers) to be overseen by Government and Iwi appointed "specialists".
Just like the polytechs and health system and see where that has got us.



This asset, the Water infrastructure is estimated between $150 -$185 Billion over next 30 years.
Why so desperate to hang on to such a liability?

Ratepayers, taxpayers, aren't we (mostly) all the same thing?
I don't care if I own it as a taxpayer or a ratepayer.


And governance is certainly not the same thing as ownership , surely as a share investor you recognise that?

[iceman]

This asset, the Water infrastructure is estimated between $150 -$185 Billion over next 30 years.
Why so desperate to hang on to such a liability?

Ratepayers, taxpayers, aren't we (mostly) all the same thing?
I don't care if I own it as a taxpayer or a ratepayer.


And governance is certainly not the same thing as ownership , surely as a share investor you recognise that?

Maybe you don't care but I know that there are many ratepayers not happy in places like here in Nelson where we have spent lots of money on our water infrastructure, to have it taken away from us and thrown into an entity that will cover top of the south, Wellington and East Coast of North Island. What genius came up with that idea I don't know. We will have no say in what will happen to the infrastructure that we have paid for and continue to maintain to this day.
Share investor or not, maybe you should recognise that there is no one fit for all. What needs fixing in unlikely to be fixed with a bigger centralised bureaucracy. We have ample samples of failures, particularly under the current Government.

[Panda-NZ-]

What needs fixing in unlikely to be fixed with a bigger centralised bureaucracy.

Maybe it could be fixed with a rationalised and streamlined centre of decision making?

78 local authorities > 1.

[Blue Skies]

Maybe you don't care but I know that there are many ratepayers not happy in places like here in Nelson where we have spent lots of money on our water infrastructure, to have it taken away from us and thrown into an entity that will cover top of the south, Wellington and East Coast of North Island. What genius came up with that idea I don't know. We will have no say in what will happen to the infrastructure that we have paid for and continue to maintain to this day.
Share investor or not, maybe you should recognise that there is no one fit for all. What needs fixing in unlikely to be fixed with a bigger centralised bureaucracy. We have ample samples of failures, particularly under the current Government.


Being one of the best councils I can understand why you might not want to be grouped in with Wellington & the East Coast of N.I.
Seems a more acceptable fit would be with other South Island councils.
But although you've spent lots on water infrastructure & Clean drinking water, aren't you still facing massive costs with the other 2 parts, Stormwater & Sewage?
And can your council access cheap borrowing costs like a national water organisation?

[nztx]

Maybe it could be fixed with a rationalised and streamlined centre of decision making?

78 local authorities > 1.


Darn .. I need another coffee after reading that .. Good luck with finding even a small fraction of those characteristics at best in the current Govt's self inflicted quagmire, where effective answers and solutions only come out once in a blue moon if at all ;)

[iceman]

Being one of the best councils I can understand why you might not want to be grouped in with Wellington & the East Coast of N.I.
Seems a more acceptable fit would be with other South Island councils.
But although you've spent lots on water infrastructure & Clean drinking water, aren't you still facing massive costs with the other 2 parts, Stormwater & Sewage?
And can your council access cheap borrowing costs like a national water organisation?

It doesn't matter what setup we choose for the future, we need to change our approach to water and just about everything else. I just don't believe we will achieve optimal management with centralised control, far removed from the locals that actually know what is needed and where.
Agree that funding needs to be secured and it can be done through the Councils with the right setup.

Don't take me wrong. I am not at all advocating for no change for the large parts of NZ that have let their infrastructure slide. But maybe we need to look at the whole picture, such as much further amalgamations of smaller councils. But whatever we do, Government needs voters/ratepayers to buy into this change, not the ramming through of policies that they fail to sell or justify.

Yes we had a major rain event here last year that caused a lot of damage. But we are dealing with it. Our Mayor, to his credit, wrote a piece a couple of days after Gabrielle and warned Nelson's ratepayers that we had to buckle in and accept that Government funding was more needed in the Gabrielle affected areas. Then he said we should accept delays with our rebuild projects and even went as far as saying maybe it was time to accept full write off of properties badly damaged and focus on "managed retreat" rather than rebuild. Sensible I thought..

[blobbles]

Maybe you don't care but I know that there are many ratepayers not happy in places like here in Nelson where we have spent lots of money on our water infrastructure, to have it taken away from us and thrown into an entity that will cover top of the south, Wellington and East Coast of North Island. What genius came up with that idea I don't know. We will have no say in what will happen to the infrastructure that we have paid for and continue to maintain to this day.
Share investor or not, maybe you should recognise that there is no one fit for all. What needs fixing in unlikely to be fixed with a bigger centralised bureaucracy. We have ample samples of failures, particularly under the current Government.

I don't get this reasoning, Nelson is considerably more wealthy than other areas like the East Coast of the NI. Central government is likely to spend somewhere around $15b already to clean up the East Coast due to Gabrielle. They are also spending considerably money in Nelson/Marlborough after the rain events of the last few years.

My point is, that you will pay for water infrastructure, no matter where you live. And it will still be owned by you as a person living in the area paying taxes, its just that the entity instead of covering your small area now covers a greater area, so can consider priorities more broadly and theoretically more efficiently than a bunch of small councils doing the same. Also as a bigger entity funding from central government and or user pays will be easier to obtain and more standardised.

I think its a decent idea that has just been badly communicated. As someone also pointed out, consolidating some of NZs councils would also work wonders for efficiency while no significantly reducing democracy if done correctly. Combining Nelson/Tasman for instance makes a lot more sense than having separate entities IMO. And even potentially combining with Marlborough. Not combining Wellingtons four councils into one is almost stupid beyond belief too as is the almost farcical situation in the Wairarapa.

[jonu]

I don't get this reasoning, Nelson is considerably more wealthy than other areas like the East Coast of the NI. Central government is likely to spend somewhere around $15b already to clean up the East Coast due to Gabrielle. They are also spending considerably money in Nelson/Marlborough after the rain events of the last few years.

My point is, that you will pay for water infrastructure, no matter where you live. And it will still be owned by you as a person living in the area paying taxes, its just that the entity instead of covering your small area now covers a greater area, so can consider priorities more broadly and theoretically more efficiently than a bunch of small councils doing the same. Also as a bigger entity funding from central government and or user pays will be easier to obtain and more standardised.

I think its a decent idea that has just been badly communicated. As someone also pointed out, consolidating some of NZs councils would also work wonders for efficiency while no significantly reducing democracy if done correctly. Combining Nelson/Tasman for instance makes a lot more sense than having separate entities IMO. And even potentially combining with Marlborough. Not combining Wellingtons four councils into one is almost stupid beyond belief too as is the almost farcical situation in the Wairarapa.

My experience of living in a district that was amalgamated 30 years ago (FNDC) is some advantages and some disadvantages. The economies of scale don't really perform as you might expect. A huge amount of local knowledge was lost with amalgamation and this remains an issue. The same applies to Regional Council which covers 3 districts in the North.

Long time locals know how their local rivers behave in a flood. Getting NRC or FNDC to listen is a big hurdle. Previously a local catchment board was responsible for these things. That's how most of NZ's flood protection schemes were formulated and built. Since the creation of Regional Councils much of this infrastructure hasn't been maintained or faced opposition from greenies to be built or extended. Thank Geof Palmer for the RMA and the consultant feeding frenzy he created. Poorly formulated and administered planning rules have been a massive handbrake on NZ ever since.

With more sensible planning laws we would have more water storage, more irrigation, more hydro power and less flooding issues. And yet all the reports coming out of Labour's RMA 'fix" sound like it will be worse.

[winner69]

Labour takes lead in polls and Hipkins gaining popularity

Luxon has to go …..now before it’s too ….he really is not a politician …hopeless

Unfortunately not much talent to take over ….curtains for the Nats I reckon

Good odds a while ago …Labour at $3.90

[777]

National + Act still more than Labour + Greens + Maori

[Balance]

National + Act still more than Labour + Greens + Maori

Let’s hope voters see through just how really useless and hypocritical
The Greens are by election date.

[nztx]

Labour takes lead in polls and Hipkins gaining popularity



What's he really done though - reverse of a few of Ardern's policies (probably realised they were stuck in the mud)
appoint a few ministers to new Crisis, do a bit of a tour then gone to ground leaving the hinterlands to fix things
basically themselves ? ;)

The silence is deafening on Gobbo Robbo looking at some sort of relief for wider affected in damaged regions
must still be looking - then a big fat nothing more heard. It's obvious the purse is dry and the list of future fix ups large and extensive.. somewhere in between there must be hope that the pack of useless and clueless clowns who failed almost all past missions might just squeak through later in the year ;)

Obviously Labour haven't read the sentiment out there very well on results of their past failed missions ;)

How long until the masses out in greater Kiwiland wake up to the fact that the Labour Govt have basically squandered and p******d it up against the wall on any range of hopeless missions delivering very little tangible in past 5.5 years aside from a bit of loud sqawking and spinning when convenient ? ;)

[ynot]

National + Act still more than Labour + Greens + Maori
Also Luxon needs to get the the picture, there is little tolerance for woke right based
thinking and hopefully if Act rallies enough support Luxon will need to pull his head in or move on.

[nztx]

Also Luxon needs to get the the picture, there is little tolerance for woke right based
thinking and hopefully if Act rallies enough support Luxon will need to pull his head in or move on.


No doubt ACT are gaining traction and being noticed :)

[ynot]

No doubt ACT are gaining traction and being noticed :)
Make no mistake, Luxon is a woke plonker but compared to the alternative, no problem.

[ynot]

No doubt ACT are gaining traction and being noticed :)

Duplicate post.

[dobby41]

Make no mistake, Luxon is a woke plonker but compared to the alternative, no problem.

Luxon is holding them up - bring in Willis.

[ynot]

Luxon is holding them up - bring in Willis.Sorry that won't work, she is as woke as Luxon. Seymour Is light years ahead of those 2.

[tim23]

Sorry that won't work, she is as woke as Luxon. Seymour Is light years ahead of those 2.
That won’t work either - he’s not in the National party. I’m note sure if I’d call Luxon if Willis woke though.

[ynot]

That won’t work either - he’s not in the National party. I’m note sure if I’d call Luxon if Willis woke though.

You don't get it do you Tim. We are just going to use National/Luxon the same way Labour use the Greens. It's called MMP.

[dobby41]

You don't get it do you Tim. We are just going to use National/Luxon the same way Labour use the Greens. It's called MMP.

Who are the 'we' using National/Luxon?

[ynot]

Who are the 'we' using National/Luxon?

Anyone that has the same concerns I have. It's not rocket science.

[Blue Skies]

Just a hypothetical question, if Luxon continues trending down in the polls & National decide to try and replicate Labour's re-set, who would they replace him with & who would be deputy?

[Baa_Baa]

Just a hypothetical question, if Luxon continues trending down in the polls & National decide to try and replicate Labour's re-set, who would they replace him with & who would be deputy?

That's an interesting question. What do you think BS? I'm sure you will have an opinion.

National imo were clearly a bit desperate promoting Luxon so early into the leader role, with Nicola as deputy. They're quite a few months into it now and Luxon is still saying, basically, 'the people don't know me'. Maybe he's not all that knowable, to the people, the masses who graft to make a living and are being screwed by the current circumstances (ignoring how those circumstances came about).

Key did it though, a rich prick who ingratiated himself and somehow managed to get the love of the populous enough to be PM for a long time. Luxon, similar, but not as likeable yet, he's got work to do and I'm not sure if he can do it, he's neither particularly likeable or compelling, as "one of us", so far, imo. Just a wanna be PM floundering trying to figure out how to be popular.

But your question was who would replace him. Well, that's hypothetical like you said, as he's not at this stage going to be replaced. But, Nicola is more relatable, at least to the middle/upper class folk, raising a family, articulate, knowlegable and a lot more politically astute than Luxon, at this stage. A perfect 2IC, to an imperfect political party imo. But not a replacement.

Outside of that, no one really. Is that what you were searching for? National is bereft of talent at the leadership level if Luxon turns out to be a flake and Nicola isn't capable of stepping up. It might be too late anyway, to change horses. I think Labour are in pretty much the same situation though with Hipkins, and who ever the deputy is, can't remember. He's on a roll and National will be pretty concerned about that in the short term.

In any event, this time, for a long time, there's not a lot to distinguish the the two centrist parties, which tends to downplay policy and shift focus to popularity, which as Jacinda proved is not all that helpful, as it changed nothing really, except getting worse outcomes and nothing useful delivered, and a lot of it is being unwound rather rapidly.

Which looks like a knee jerk reaction by Labour, or Hipkins specifically. It will savage the past five years of Labour and leave next to no time to recover and get anything really useful done before the next election. I think that will weigh heavily on the public judgement, canning a lot of Labour policy (massive wastage) and unlikely to achieve much in the next six month until the election. It's desperate politics.

TBH, I think the public might overall be becoming increasingly concerned that whatever party holds the balance power, it's their ideals that are front of mind, and not so much the needs of our diverse population. Are any of them really in touch with the reality of life in NZ? I don't think so. That is, imo, the problem, that neither of the major parties really have a grip on what we're all going through and their policies are just bandaids, they're not really improving or bettering anything.So far few of them have been able to be implemented. This legacy of underperformance may land heavily on Labour.

Mind you, what could you expect from a political system that populates itself by ordinary people being voted into influential positions? None of them, not a single one, is really equipped to be in such positions of power and influence. Their performance in aggregate defies any reasoned opinion as to their capability to implement their ambitions, that got them into their positions of power.

That's why I'm currently unlikely to support either National or Labour, and will go for a disrupter, a challenger, that tries to keep the converging centre parties (who struggle to distinguish themselves) from being a popularity race to success in the election.

[Blue Skies]

BB I honestly don't know, but after watching Shane Reti on One News tonight acknowledging Chris Luxon is not well liked by the public but has a number of personality traits he's yet to reveal to the public, I don't think its going to be Dr Shane.
Thought Nicola Willis communicates very well, much better political instincts than Luxon but she often comes across as a bit calculating, reading the room rather than being herself & would those conservative National voters go for a woman leader? I think she would probably be a much tougher opponent for Hipkins.

[Panda-NZ-]

He would have done well as PM a century or two ago though given his aristocratic manner (assuming he wore a wig of the finest horse hair).

The lord paramount luxon of Botany.

[Balance]

He would have done well as PM a century or two ago though given his aristocratic manner (assuming he wore a wig of the finest horse hair).

The lord paramount luxon of Botany.

Writes panda-NZ who wanted Ryman to borrow ever more debt to buy back shares.

Ignoramus peasant.

Shows the pathetic quality of Labour supporters and posters here.

[Panda-NZ-]

RYM NTA = nearly $7, makes sense.

Im not quite lord luxon/grantham and his failed investments yet (Air NZ).