National - FFS!

[Balance]

RYM NTA = nearly $7, made sense.

Im not quite lord luxon/Grantham and his failed investments yet (Air NZ).

Ryman in financial trouble and you want it to load up with more debt - typical Labour policy.

Keep posting - most satisfying to see an ignoramus peasant in action.

[Panda-NZ-]

Ryman in financial trouble and you want it to load up with more debt - typical Labour policy.

It's more of a National thing actually - Cullen nearly paid off shipley's debt and Grant continued to pay off Keys.

For the last 20 years labour govts have run non-stop budget surpluses until 2020.

Key, bolger and shipley took on loads of debt.

[777]

It's more of a National thing actually - cullen nearly paid off shipley's debt and Grant continued to pay off Key's after they struggled to balance the books for a long 6 years.

And then he bought the railways back 5 minutes before they were dumped.

[Balance]

It's more of a National thing actually - cullen nearly paid off shipley's debt and Grant continued to pay off Key's after they struggled to balance the books for a long 6 years.

Ignoramus peasant panda-nz trying to change the subject.

Keep writing about you wanting Ryman in financial trouble to load up with more debt to buy back shares.

Most satisfying to showcase the woolly & bankrupt mindset of Labour supporters and posters.

Notice how even your fellow woke supporters are distancing themselves from you?

[davflaws]

It's more of a National thing actually - Cullen nearly paid off shipley's debt and Grant continued to pay off Keys.

For the last 20 years labour govts have run non-stop budget surpluses until 2020.

Key, bolger and shipley took on loads of debt.

Don't feed the troll. He won't engage - he'll just throw a whole lot of ad hominem rubbish.

[Balance]

Don't feed the troll. He won't engage - he'll just throw a whole lot of ad hominem rubbish.

davflaws - you got over your lack of cultural heritage yet because of your crying need to embrace Maori culture to have some culture? Comment on that before you comment on anything else.

What you post tells a lot about the woke and bankrupt mentality of you & your type.

[Balance]

Panda-nz, the ignoramus peasant and davflaws, the culturally bankrupt loser consoling each other!

What a combination!

[Blue Skies]

Minister of Police gone in Nicola Willis's first day as acting LOTO.
What a time to be isolating with Covid. Poor Christopher Luxon doesn't get a break.

[Balance]

Minister of Police gone in Nicola Willis's first day as acting LOTO.
What a time to be isolating with Covid. Poor Christopher Luxon doesn't get a break.

Luxon is getting a great break as Hipkins and Nash are making all the mistakes only hypocrites and arrogant twits make :

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nashs-poor-judgment-only-half-the-story

When Hipkins says Nash has paid the price, he’s only been punished for the first part – making the phone call – and the conflict that creates as the minister in charge of police.

By not stripping him of his other portfolios, Hipkins has done nothing to respond to Nash’s inability to identify that his actions were unwise, unprofessional, and made him unfit for any ministerial role.

If after almost six years as a minister, Nash still doesn’t know what breaching the Cabinet manual looks like how can Hipkins trust him not to do it again?

[Blue Skies]

Luxon is getting a great break as Hipkins and Nash are making all the mistakes only hypocrites and arrogant twits make :

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nashs-poor-judgment-only-half-the-story

When Hipkins says Nash has paid the price, he’s only been punished for the first part – making the phone call – and the conflict that creates as the minister in charge of police.

By not stripping him of his other portfolios, Hipkins has done nothing to respond to Nash’s inability to identify that his actions were unwise, unprofessional, and made him unfit for any ministerial role.

If after almost six years as a minister, Nash still doesn’t know what breaching the Cabinet manual looks like how can Hipkins trust him not to do it again?



I was talking about the Nat's leadership.
What I was inferring was on the day when Nicola Willis had all the media attention & was defending Luxon's personal sliding polling ratings, also by sheer luck she also got all the media attention for the Police Minister scalp instead of Luxon.
i.e. Willis is looking like a strong alternative to Luxon. She's a much better & clearer communicator & looking more authoritative & confident by the day, and has a much better grasp of detail.

Luxon needs some luck or something to reverse his diminishing appeal to voters.
Shane Retti's dirge like assurances he's impressed with what he see of Luxon after hours, & he's yet to reveal parts of his personality sounded like the kiss of death, and other MP's didn't sound overly convincing.
Already there's chatter among a couple of Nat MP's there're not prepared to do another 3 years in opposition.
That was unthinkable a couple of months ago.

[Balance]

I was talking about the Nat's leadership.
What I was inferring was on the day when Nicola Willis had all the media attention & was defending Luxon's personal sliding polling ratings, also by sheer luck she also got all the media attention for the Police Minister scalp instead of Luxon.
i.e. Willis is looking like a strong alternative to Luxon. She's a much better & clearer communicator & looking more authoritative & confident by the day, and has a much better grasp of detail.

Luxon needs some luck or something to reverse his diminishing appeal to voters.
Shane Retti's dirge like assurances he's impressed with what he see of Luxon after hours, & he's yet to reveal parts of his personality sounded like the kiss of death, and other MP's didn't sound overly enthusiastic.
Already there's chatter among a couple of Nat MP's there're not prepared to do another 3 years in opposition.
That was unthinkable a couple of months ago.

Typical Labour Party BS now that Luxon has entrenched himself in the leadership position.

You just focus on who is going to knife Hipkins in the back when he loses the election in October.

Remember Ardern? The most beloved Pm? The one heading the most transparent government ever?

Well, just remember that Hipkins was minister of police and education - both disaster areas. And those he has been knifing like Little, Nash and Mahuta are sharpening their knives even while Hipkins embarks on his denial strategy of the last 5.5 years.

[Blue Skies]

Typical Labour Party BS now that Luxon has entrenched himself in the leadership position.

You just focus on who is going to knife Hipkins in the back when he loses the election in October.

Remember Ardern? The most beloved Pm? The one heading the most transparent government ever?

Well, just remember that Hipkins was minister of police and education - both disaster areas. And those he has been knifing like Little, Nash and Mahuta are sharpening their knives even while Hipkins embarks on his denial strategy of the last 5.5 years.



You'll need to convince more than me, I'm only 1 vote.

But if you want a change of govt you better face the reality Chris Hipkin's nett favourability among voters is soaring, on plus 33%, while Christopher Luxon is in negative territory on minus 2%, his MP's are having to defend him now, acknowledging 6 or 7 months out from the election he's not appealing to voters & we all just have to get to know him.
And 6 out of the last 8 polls Labour is ahead for the first time since December 2021.

Hipkin's handling of everything from the cost of living re-set to the immediate dismissal of Stuart Nash as Minister of Police is winning him support even among National voters.

If you're sailing towards the rocks, you can either ignore them in the short term & pretend everything's fine, or change course.

Labour could see that & changed course & look at the result.

Nicola Willis might be just the re-set National need.

[Balance]

You'll need to convince more than me, I'm only 1 vote.

But if you want a change of govt you better face the reality Chris Hipkin's nett favourability among voters is soaring, on plus 33%, while Christopher Luxon is in negative territory on minus 2%, his MP's are having to defend him now, acknowledging 6 or 7 months out from the election he's not appealing to voters & we all just have to get to know him.
And 6 out of the last 8 polls Labour is ahead for the first time since December 2021.

Hipkin's handling of everything from the cost of living re-set to the immediate dismissal of Stuart Nash as Minister of Police is winning him support even among National voters.

If you're sailing towards the rocks, you can either ignore them in the short term & pretend everything's fine, or change course.

Labour could see that & changed course & look at the result.

Nicola Willis might be just the re-set National need.

Garbage as usual.

Focus on October when voters enter the booth & remember what 6 years of Ardern & Hipkins have brought to NZ - spin and empty promises while wrecking havoc on education, health, law & order as well as divisiveness on a grand scale.

I don’t need to convince the likes of you - middle white NZers will decide the election and that’s a fact acknowledged by Labour.

And unlike the beneficiary class who vote labour blindly, these are a different class of voters. They do not vote blindly.

Hipkins - minister of police and minister of education. What did he achieve? And you expect the intelligent white middle class electorate to buy his spin?

[Panda-NZ-]

The childcare policy seems like a luxon deluxe doozy…

The working poor on 180k will get money direct into their bank account (..?) for private childcare, but only when they file their income tax return 12 months later.

[Balance]

The childcare policy seems like a luxon deluxe doozy…

The working poor on 180k will get money direct into their bank account (?) for private childcare, but only when they file their income tax return 12 months later.

Panda-nz, the ignoramus peasant reappears.

How about raising & loading up with more debt for Ryman to buy its own shares when it was already in financial strife as you recommended? As dumb and as stupid as all the other Labour Party policies.

[Balance]

Meanwhile, we have seen one of the ex Minister of Police Hipkins policies reveal itself - spreading the crime around.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/486103/gang-thefts-and-burning-cars-has-cbd-police-presence-pushed-trouble-elsewhere

This is the PM after the spin mistress Ardern that intelligent white middle class NZers are going to vote for in October?

[Panda-NZ-]

This is the PM after the spin mistress Ardern that intelligent white middle class NZers are going to vote for in October?

Will they want to work until 67, and have one less public holiday?

[Balance]

Will they want to work until 67, and have one less public holiday?

Tell us about Ryman borrowing more money to buy its own shares, ignoramus peasant.

[Balance]

Meanwhile, we have seen one of the ex Minister of Police Hipkins policies reveal itself - spreading the crime around.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/486103/gang-thefts-and-burning-cars-has-cbd-police-presence-pushed-trouble-elsewhere

This is the PM after the spin mistress Ardern that intelligent white middle class NZers are going to vote for in October?

And it’s not the first time that Nash breached ministerial protocol - interfering with judicial & police imperatives

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300831788/striking-teachers-talk-second-jobs-early-starts-and-thoughts-of-giving-up

No wonder Hipkins (ex minister of pro crime & pro gangs) had to sack Nash.

Middle class white NZers going to vote for Hipkins come October?

[Balance]

Make no mistake - Labour’s internal polling is showing that white middle class NZers will decide this year’s election.

Labour can afford to be complacent with the brown vote as they have nowhere to go except not vote.

But Labour has been complacent with the white voter swing to Ardern in 2020 - Labour took them for granted and started implementing racist & divisive policies. Also promoted incompetent brown politicians like Poto & Faafoi to lock in the brown votes.

So let’s see what white middle class NZers do in October 2023 - will they be fooled a third time by Labour?

[Balance]

Make no mistake - Labour’s internal polling is showing that white middle class NZers will decide this year’s election.

Labour can afford to be complacent with the brown vote as they have nowhere to go except not vote.

But Labour has been complacent with the white voter swing to Ardern in 2020 - Labour took them for granted and started implementing racist & divisive policies. Also promoted incompetent brown politicians like Poto & Faafoi to lock in the brown votes.

So let’s see what white middle class NZers do in October 2023 - will they be fooled a third time by Labour?

You will not read the above in the media of course as they are all so politically aware these days that they can get cancelled for writing about the TRUTH.

Most transparent government ever - that’s what the peasants out there believe.

[Blue Skies]

Blimmy, National's, Mark get tough on crime Mitchell, says Stuart Nash should be fired from Cabinet for saying in 2020, he hoped the killer of Police Constable Mathew Hunt got a long jail sentence to reflect on what he'd done.
When it all boils down, all this tough talk from people like Mitchell is just so much pretence & hot air.

Didn't realise National's Mark Mitchell was, what's the expression, so what some call, 'woke.'

The irony is, Nat & ACT tough on crime & law & order voters, mostly think bloody good on Stuart Nash.

He was a good Police Minister too.

[jonu]

Blimmy, National's, Mark get tough on crime Mitchell, says Stuart Nash should be fired from Cabinet for saying in 2020, he hoped the killer of Police Constable Mathew Hunt got a long jail sentence to reflect on what he'd done.
When it all boils down, all this tough talk from people like Mitchell is just so much pretence & hot air.

Didn't realise National's Mark Mitchell was, what's the expression, so what some call, 'woke.'

The irony is, Nat & ACT tough on crime & law & order voters, mostly think bloody good on Stuart Nash.

He was a good Police Minister too.

No he wasn't.
Nash (and apparently yourself) was determined to ignore the Cabinet Manual and commented on particular cases. That's why he is no longer Police Minister and it's a mystery as to why he is still in Cabinet. A breach is a breach. He lacks the judgement to be a Minister. He needs to go from Cabinet altogether.

[Balance]

No he wasn't.
Nash (and apparently yourself) was determined to ignore the Cabinet Manual and commented on particular cases. That's why he is no longer Police Minister and it's a mystery as to why he is still in Cabinet. A breach is a breach. He lacks the judgement to be a Minister. He needs to go from Cabinet altogether.

It is so clear that Nash has no perception of what being a minister entails - tries to talk tough when law & order has broken down under this Labour government.

Blue Skies trying to BS as usual and highlights just how arrogant and out of touch Labour & its supporters have become. They actually believe in their spin.

[Panda-NZ-]

National on a lame 34% an election year... it's not John Key's party anymore and its a worse result than Simon Bridges achieved.

[Balance]

National on a lame 34 in an election year... it's not John Key's party anymore and its a worse result than Simon bridges.

Tell us how Ryman, according to you, should be loading up with more debt to do a share buyback, ignoramus peasant. You have zero credibility.

[fungus pudding]

No he wasn't.
Nash (and apparently yourself) was determined to ignore the Cabinet Manual and commented on particular cases. That's why he is no longer Police Minister and it's a mystery as to why he is still in Cabinet. A breach is a breach. He lacks the judgement to be a Minister. He needs to go from Cabinet altogether.

Than what? He's one of the best in that bunch.

[Balance]

Than what? He's one of the best in that bunch.

Telling, isn’t it?

Must be the worse government ever to be elected - all spin and no delivery.

And with supporters like panda-nz who actually advocates loading up financially stressed companies like Ryman with more debt to do share buybacks. How impossibly bankrupt of ideas can a party & its supporters can be!!!

[Panda-NZ-]

When will National get rid of Sam Uffindel? Why is the report still kept secret?

[Balance]

When will National get rid of Sam Uffindel? Why is the report still kept secret?

Tell us how Ryman, according to you, should be loading up with more debt to do a share buyback, ignoramus peasant. You have zero credibility.

When in hole, dig deeper - that’s Labour Party policy.

Same Labour Party policy & logic which delivered NZ it’s worse current account deficit since records began in 1988 :

New Zealand’s annual current account deficit last year was $33.8 billion, or 8.9% of gross domestic product — the worst ratio since measurement began in 1988.

The deficit was $12.7 billion wider than in 2021, making the ratio to GDP worse than the previous record of 7.8% during the global financial crisis in 2008.

Statistics New Zealand said a current account deficit shows we are spending more than we are earning overseas, and the ratio to GDP shows its significance to the overall economy.

[Blue Skies]

Another outstanding example of National's Candidate selection process, ex MP Jamie Lee Ross now running an Adults Escort Agency Service.

Wonder if he got any tips from John Key's business partners, the Chow Brothers on how to run a glorified prostitution business.
Could never understand why an ex Prime Minister would go anywhere near or risk having their name & reputation forever sullied & want to be associated with these ex glorified pimps.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ex-national-mp-jami-lee-ross-running-escort-agency-accused-of-not-providing-women-safe-working-environment/QFVMVSI2WJAVFJWWJMNE35GOIY/

[jonu]

Another outstanding example of National's Candidate selection process, ex MP Jamie Lee Ross now running an Adults Escort Agency Service.

Wonder if he got any tips from John Key's business partners, the Chow Brothers on how to run a glorified prostitution business.
Could never understand why an ex Prime Minister would go anywhere near or risk having their name & reputation forever sullied & want to be associated with these ex glorified pimps.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ex-national-mp-jami-lee-ross-running-escort-agency-accused-of-not-providing-women-safe-working-environment/QFVMVSI2WJAVFJWWJMNE35GOIY/

Isn't it the Labour position that prostitution is fine and dandy? Ardern even made a Dame of one. Seems you're out of step with Labour on this one. They see it as an honourable profession.

[Blue Skies]

Isn't it the Labour position that prostitution is fine and dandy? Ardern even made a Dame of one. Seems you're out of step with Labour on this one. They see it as an honourable profession.


Ha.... no, prostitution between consenting adults, the oldest profession is fine, its the exploitation & treatment of the women esp vulnerable young women by male pimps which is so awful.

[jonu]

Ha.... no, prostitution between consenting adults, the oldest profession is fine, its the exploitation & treatment of the women esp vulnerable young women by male pimps which is so awful.

It was Labour that legalised what you (quite rightly) despise.

[fungus pudding]

It was Labour that legalised what you (quite rightly) despise.


Exploitation of vulnerable young women, correctly described by BS as awful, has never been legalised.

[davflaws]

It was Labour that legalised what you (quite rightly) despise.

The legislation was certainly intended to destigmatise sex work and to prevent the exploitation of sexworkers. I understand that the exploitationof vulnerable young women has been markedly reduced, if not entirely eliminated. The escorts working in association with Jamie Lee Ross have a degree of legal protection. I hope they don't need it.

[fungus pudding]

The legislation was certainly intended to destigmatise sex work and to prevent the exploitation of sexworkers. I understand that the exploitationof vulnerable young women has been markedly reduced, if not entirely eliminated. The escorts working in association with Jamie Lee Ross have a degree of legal protection. I hope they don't need it.

Of course they need it. We all need legal protection for certain things.

[jonu]

Exploitation of vulnerable young women, correctly described by BS as awful, has never been legalised.

Well you could debate that, but regardless, the colloquial "pimp" Blue Skies used was legalised. I have no doubt prostitution is still populated by vulnerable young women.

[Balance]

Isn't it the Labour position that prostitution is fine and dandy? Ardern even made a Dame of one. Seems you're out of step with Labour on this one. They see it as an honourable profession.

Excellent catch, jonu. You got him good!

Shows the depth of hypocrisy practised by the likes of zBlue Skies.

Ross was kicked out of the National Party but BS attempts to link him to the current state of politics.

Well, if he wants an example of just how corrupt and immoral the Labour Party is with its candidate selection - try Taito Phillip Field.

Now that was worker exploitation and to make matters worse, cover up and perversion of justice while he was a government minister!

Imagine - while earning a big income as a Labour Party Minister, he exploited vulnerable migrant workers!

Enjoy, Blue Skies ….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taito_Phillip_Field

[Blue Skies]

Excellent catch, jonu. Shows the depth of hypocrisy practised by the likes of zBlue Skies.

Ross was kicked out of the National Party but BS attempts to link him to the current state of politics.

Well, if he wants an example of just how corrupt and immoral the Labour Party is with its candidate selection - try Taito Philips. Now that was worker exploitation and to make matters worse, cover up and perversion of justice while he was a government minister!

Enjoy, Blue Skies ….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taito_Phillip_Field


Hey, you're taking my post a bit too personally. Wasn't intended to cast aspersions on current National MP's & agree both/all parties have had rogue MP's.

Though National do seem to have had rather a lot, & even Luxon has said they need to do a lot better with their selection processes in future, & Im sure they will.

[davflaws]

Of course they need it. We all need legal protection for certain things.

Sorry - I had put my employment advocate's hat on and wasn't clear.

Yes - we all need legal protection. I should have said I hope JLR's employees don't need to use the provisions in the law.

[Balance]

Hey, you're taking my post a bit too personally. Wasn't intended to cast aspersions on current National MP's & agree both/all parties have had rogue MP's.

Though National do seem to have had rather a lot, & even Luxon has said they need to do a lot better with their selection processes in future, & Im sure they will.

Nope - you have been caught so just admit it.

As for prostitution, I was talking to one of the Stuff journalists about an article she wrote on exploitation in the sex industry post the legalisation.

She commented that the legalisation has made a huge difference to the protection of sex workers, the majority of who are well into their middle age.

She lamented however just how many young and vulnerable girls, hooked on drugs or craving expensive lifestyles, entered the industry with no idea just how brutalising the work is on their mental well being.

And in a way, the legalisation has of course made it that much easier for young girls to join the industry.

The legislation should have provided for a licensing regime which unfortunately it doesn’t. So there’s more which needs to be done.

[Balance]

Sorry - I had put my employment advocate's hat on and wasn't clear.

Yes - we all need legal protection. I should have said I hope JLR's employees don't need to use the provisions in the law.

Writing through the hole in your culturally deprived backside as usual.

[Blue Skies]

deleted due formatting

[Balance]

[QUOTE=Balance;996379]Nope - you have been caught so just admit it.

As for prostitution, I was talking to one of the Stuff journalists about an article she wrote on exploitation in the sex industry post the legalisation.

She commented that the legalisation has made a huge difference to the protection of sex workers, the majority of who are well into their middle age.

She lamented however just how many young and vulnerable girls, hooked on drugs or craving expensive lifestyles, entered the industry with no idea just how brutalising the work is on their mental well being.

And in a way, the legalisation has of course made it that much easier for young girls to join the industry.

The legislation should have provided for a licensing regime which unfortunately it doesn’t. So there’s more which needs to be done.[/QUOTE



Caught ! Admit what?
Bit of an over the top reaction, there's no need to be like that.

As was widely being discussed today, it's a surprising & unusual career path for an ex Conservative MP to take, don't you think,.. or perhaps not ?

Why do you consider it unusual? You are putting down prostitution as a legitimate and legal honourable profession as enshrined now by legislation passed by the Clark government?

Seems to us that you are behind the times and casting your moral judgement on prostitution?

Better you shift your moral outrage to corruption and immoral behaviour in Labour government, now & before. Start with Taito Phillip Field and continue to Mahuta.

[Blue Skies]

Nope - you have been caught so just admit it.

As for prostitution, I was talking to one of the Stuff journalists about an article she wrote on exploitation in the sex industry post the legalisation.

She commented that the legalisation has made a huge difference to the protection of sex workers, the majority of who are well into their middle age.

She lamented however just how many young and vulnerable girls, hooked on drugs or craving expensive lifestyles, entered the industry with no idea just how brutalising the work is on their mental well being.

And in a way, the legalisation has of course made it that much easier for young girls to join the industry.

The legislation should have provided for a licensing regime which unfortunately it doesn’t. So there’s more which needs to be done.



Caught! Admit what?
Bit of an over the top reaction, no need to be like that.

As was being widely discussed today, it's a surprising & unusual career path for an (ex) Conservative MP to take don't you think, or perhaps not ?

[winner69]

Whose this Erica people are talking about as being Nat’s saviour

[Balance]

And the Greens are off - crying racism and privileges for the wealthy to try & head off the backlash from white middle class NZers fed up to the backteeth with the divisive useless and incompetent Labour/Greens government of the last 5.5 years.

Never mind that the Greens has been the most racist party that NZ has seen in decades.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-climate-election-message-to-labour-strongest-possible-action-a-bottom-line/SEBRIGYGA5GODN7OYYFIUZ4GYU/

Like I wrote before, Labour’s internal polling shows that is where this 2023 election is going to be won or lost.

[moka]

oops I'll try that again deleted due formatting
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/worlds-first-openly-transgender-mp-and-mayor-georgina-beyer-dies-aged-65/XJYEBLG24JEZFJ5TZPNG7LSPTE/)

[moka]

[QUOTE=Balance;996386]

Why do you consider it unusual? You are putting down prostitution as a legitimate and legal honourable profession as enshrined now by legislation passed by the Clark government?

Seems to us that you are behind the times and casting your moral judgement on prostitution?

Better you shift your moral outrage to corruption and immoral behaviour in Labour government, now & before. Start with Taito Phillip Field and continue to Mahuta. The above quote was by Balance not by Blue Skies did not format correctly originally.

The morality of prostitution is an interesting subject.

This sex worker says “It is not a moral/personal failing to pay for sexual services, just as it is not a moral/personal failing to sell sexual services.”

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/14-03-2023/i-am-a-sex-worker-this-is-what-i-do
(https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/14-03-2023/i-am-a-sex-worker-this-is-what-i-do)
So at an individual level I agree that people should not be stigmatized for being prostitutes, and decriminalizing prostitution provides some protection to them.

But in the big picture prostitution is not an honourable profession. And it is a sad reflection on society that it is considered to be by some people. Prostitution is not merely “a job like any other.”

https://teara.govt.nz/en/video/29381/passing-of-the-prostitution-reform-bill
(https://teara.govt.nz/en/video/29381/passing-of-the-prostitution-reform-bill)
The Prostitution Reform Bill, which decriminalised sex work in New Zealand, passed on 25 June 2003 by just one vote – the abstention of Labour MP Ashraf Choudhary allowed the bill to become law. This video clip shows the overjoyed response of Labour MPs Tim Barnett (the bill's sponsor) and Georgina Beyer. Beyer, a former sex worker, earlier made an impassioned and moving speech about being raped at knife-point while working, and being unable to turn to the police for help.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/worlds-first-openly-transgender-mp-and-mayor-georgina-beyer-dies-aged-65/XJYEBLG24JEZFJ5TZPNG7LSPTE/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/worlds-first-openly-transgender-mp-and-mayor-georgina-beyer-dies-aged-65/XJYEBLG24JEZFJ5TZPNG7LSPTE/)
6 March 2023 World’s first openly transgender MP and mayor Georgina Beyer dies aged 65
Beyer spent eight years in government and counted decriminalising prostitution and bringing in civil unions among her proudest achievements.

[Blue Skies]

Deleted due to formatting problem.
Reply with Quote are being attributed to the wrong poster.

[Blue Skies]

Moka, can you please edit out my name from Balance's Post, or the entire Quote if that's not possible.
How on earth did you let that happen ?

You don't need it to make your point & it's not acceptable to leave my name there with a disclaimer, on a post written by someone else, esp on a sensitive topic like this.
Thanks.

[Blue Skies]

Just a quick thanks to Moka for the edit.
Was a ST formatting issue.

[Bjauck]

Has this been posted before? National MP to Pimp. Still pimping for punters?
jami Lee Ross
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ex-national-mp-jami-lee-ross-running-escort-agency-accused-of-not-providing-women-safe-working-environment/QFVMVSI2WJAVFJWWJMNE35GOIY/?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=topnewsrss&utm_campaign=NZH%20Brand&utm_content=tdob&dicbo=v4-28emq2i-1131233949

[Balance]

Has this been posted before? National MP to Pimp. Still pimping for punters?
jami Lee Ross
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ex-national-mp-jami-lee-ross-running-escort-agency-accused-of-not-providing-women-safe-working-environment/QFVMVSI2WJAVFJWWJMNE35GOIY/?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=topnewsrss&utm_campaign=NZH%20Brand&utm_content=tdob&dicbo=v4-28emq2i-1131233949

Better than Labour’s Taito Phillip who was charged and convicted of enslavement, corruption and attempt to subvert justice while a MP & government minister.

Prostitution is not a crime in any case much as Blue skies and you attempt to paint otherwise.

[tim23]

Better than Labour’s Taito Phillip who was charged and convicted of enslavement, corruption and attempt to subvert justice while a MP & government minister.

Prostitution is not a crime in any case much as Blue skies and you attempt to paint otherwise.

Didn’t your lot have a couple of shamed MPs who were lobbyists for big tobacco- now that’s shameful.

[Panda-NZ-]

The best a high powered former CEO can come up with...

1-1-1 maths reading science "we have to teach da basics".

How about something on the cost of living..?

[Panda-NZ-]

Call the ambulance "111" on Luxon's leadership.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-leader-christopher-luxon-falls-to-new-low-in-poll/UATZJNSCNJAETH5XW5RUODMD3Y/

[Balance]

Call the ambulance "111" on Luxon's leadership.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-leader-christopher-luxon-falls-to-new-low-in-poll/UATZJNSCNJAETH5XW5RUODMD3Y/

Tell us about Ryman taking on more debt to do a share buyback, ignoramus peasant.

[Bjauck]

Better than Labour’s Taito Phillip who was charged and convicted of enslavement, corruption and attempt to subvert justice while a MP & government minister.

Prostitution is not a crime in any case much as Blue skies and you attempt to paint otherwise. Nope I was not painting it otherwise. No doubt his old team laud his career progression. Labour's Tim Barnet pushed for Sex Work decriminalisation, which occurred under a labour Govt.

There is always someone worse. Is that a defence?

[westerly]

Tell us about Ryman taking on more debt to do a share buyback, ignoramus peasant.

Parrot

Westerly

[Balance]

Nope I was not painting it otherwise. No doubt his old team laud his career progression. Labour's Tim Barnet pushed for Sex Work decriminalisation, which occurred under a labour Govt.

There is always someone worse. Is that a defence?

It's called 'perspective'.

[Balance]

Didn’t your lot have a couple of shamed MPs who were lobbyists for big tobacco- now that’s shameful.

Then there's the Greens and Labour MPs pushing for legalisation of cannabis & marijuana.

If tobacco is bad, why don't they outlaw it but instead, they want to add to the toxic substances list.

BTW, your mommy is calling you again. Milk time boyo!

[Balance]

Parrot

Westerly

Looks like you want to join panda-nz as yet another ignoramus Labour peasant?

Tell us how Ryman, according to panda-nz, should be loading up with more debt to do a share buyback, ignoramus peasant.

When in hole, dig deeper - that’s Labour Party policy.

Same Labour Party policy & logic which delivered NZ it’s worse current account deficit since records began in 1988 :

New Zealand’s annual current account deficit last year was $33.8 billion, or 8.9% of gross domestic product — the worst ratio since measurement began in 1988.

The deficit was $12.7 billion wider than in 2021, making the ratio to GDP worse than the previous record of 7.8% during the global financial crisis in 2008.

Statistics New Zealand said a current account deficit shows we are spending more than we are earning overseas, and the ratio to GDP shows its significance to the overall economy.

[Balance]

Make no mistake - Labour’s internal polling is showing that white middle class NZers will decide this year’s election.

Labour can afford to be complacent with the brown vote as they have nowhere to go except not vote.

But Labour has been complacent with the white voter swing to Ardern in 2020 - Labour took them for granted and started implementing racist & divisive policies. Also promoted incompetent brown politicians like Poto & Faafoi to lock in the brown votes.

So let’s see what white middle class NZers do in October 2023 - will they be fooled a third time by Labour?

And right on cue, Winston has picked up on where the white middle class voters are concerned about with Labour's divisive and racist policies.

Watch this play out through to October election with Labour & Hipkins trying every which way to hide from their hidden agenda now exposed for all to see.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/nz-first-leader-winston-peters-delivers-state-of-the-nation-speech/4EOIMT3VD5AQXMVLSFWQRU3X6M/

NZ First leader Winston Peters is warning of a “conniving, cultural cabal” using Māori to “further their own agenda”, as he proposes stripping government departments of te reo names, mandatory prison sentences for people who assault first responders and more funding for frontline agencies.

Peters also claims the Government is “furiously trying to put co-governance on the backburner”, but believes Labour and National MPs still believe in the plan as a central aspect of the Government’s Three Waters legislation, which is currently being reviewed amid Prime Minister Chris Hipkins’ refocusing on the cost of living crisis.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1678830301743-EVG8DPV6I147TLGK5EAU/outa+sight-outa+mind.jpg?format=500w

[tim23]

Then there's the Greens and Labour MPs pushing for legalisation of cannabis & marijuana.

If tobacco is bad, why don't they outlaw it but instead, they want to add to the toxic substances list.

BTW, your mommy is calling you again. Milk time boyo!
Cannibas & Marijuana - same thing old timer😀

[davflaws]

Cannibas & Marijuana - same thing old timer
Difficult though it may be - Don't feed the troll!

[tim23]

Difficult though it may be - Don't feed the troll!
Yes you are quite right- couldn’t help myself.

[Balance]

Yes you are quite right- couldn’t help myself.

Milk time, boyo - your mommy calling you for the third time to get your feed.

[dobby41]

The best a high powered former CEO can come up with...

1-1-1 maths reading science "we have to teach da basics".

How about something on the cost of living..?

Luxon should spend some time in a class room to understand what is actually being done.
Most of their education is done now and National Standards didn't work last time so why again?

[iceman]

Luxon should spend some time in a class room to understand what is actually being done.
Most of their education is done now and National Standards didn't work last time so why again?

Have you been in a primary school class room recently ? Based on your comments, I assume not

[Balance]

Have you been in a primary school class room recently ? Based on your comments, I assume not

He needs to go back to primary school, you reckon?

Ardern spin & bs indoctrinated mind which needs to be re-educated?

[westerly]

Milk time, boyo - your mommy calling you for the third time to get your feed.

parrot

westerly

[dobby41]

Have you been in a primary school class room recently ? Based on your comments, I assume not

Yes I have and I know many current primary school teachers and what they do day to day.

[tim23]

He needs to go back to primary school, you reckon?

Ardern spin & bs indoctrinated mind which needs to be re-educated?
At least some of us graduated from primary school where did it go wrong for you?

[Balance]

At least some of us graduated from primary school where did it go wrong for you?

Your mommy is calling you, boyo - milk time again.

[Balance]

Yes I have and I know many current primary school teachers and what they do day to day.

Yup - you sure know all the woke transgender leftist teachers in the schools. Priority of Labour & Greens to breed as many of them as possible.

[Blue Skies]

Remember whenever National had internal crisis with their MP's & blimmy there were enough of them, and Jacinda Ardern would always take the high road & refuse to pass judgement or comment to the media, saying it was up to the other party to sort out.

But here we have Luxon going all out on the Nash affair, calling for inquiry saying he should be sacked from parliament forcing a by-election (later walked back), saying what he would do if PM ( despite hiding the Uffindale report & doing zero about Barbara Kuriger for just a start).
Luxon risks over-egging it & people start to feel sympathy for Nash who even Winston Peters has defended as simply doing what good MP's do, representing the interests of their constituents. And remember Nash didn't divulge any information that the Cabinet hadn't already made public, just that he personally was disappointed in Cabinet's decision (which was a no no)

The way I see it, Hipkins continues to grow in stature with his decisive handling of it & focus on core issue to voters, while Luxon looks like a man with his leadership now under threat, (& rising anxiety in Caucus about losing the un-loseable election ), flailing wildly at the opposition.

Will be interesting to see if Luxon's strategy helps reverse his falling personal preferred PM ratings or the constant negativity leads to more people switching off him.


Interesting, just heard Luxon being interviewed by Tova on Today FM & called out for his hypocrisy around doing nothing about MP Barbara Kuriger who used her position as Agriculture Spokesperson to intimidate (over 50 emails, using National Party letterhead) & even try & get an MPI official fired for investigating her son & husband who were found guilty of cruelty to animals.
Luxon should have been prepared to answer this, instead he's stumbling & almost incoherent, he's not ready to be a PM.
National promoted him too soon.

[Balance]

Remember whenever National had internal crisis with their MP's & blimmy there were enough of them, and Jacinda Ardern would always take the high road & refuse to pass judgement or comment to the media, saying it was up to the other party to sort out.

But here we have Luxon going all out on the Nash affair, calling for inquiry saying he should be sacked from parliament forcing a by-election (later walked back), saying what he would do if PM ( despite hiding the Uffindale report & doing zero about Barbara Kuriger for just a start).
Luxon risks over-egging it & people start to feel sympathy for Nash who even Winston Peters has defended as simply doing what good MP's do, representing the interests of their constituents. And remember Nash didn't divulge any information that the Cabinet hadn't already made public, just that he personally was disappointed in Cabinet's decision (which was a no no)

The way I see it, Hipkins continues to grow in stature with his decisive handling of it & focus on core issue to voters, while Luxon looks like a man with his leadership now under threat, (& rising anxiety in Caucus about losing the un-loseable election ), flailing wildly at the opposition.

Will be interesting to see if Luxon's strategy helps reverse his falling personal preferred PM ratings or the constant negativity leads to more people switching off him.



Good on Luxon - he is applying the blow touch and Labour is falling apart :

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/2/6/d/k/3/8/image.related.StuffThumbnailSixteenByNine.1600x900 .26dk5l.png/1680072596578.jpg?optimize=high&crop=16:9,smart&width=748&format=webp&dpr=2

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131634171/jacinda-arderns-office-knew-of-stuart-nashs-2020-email-hipkins-orders-review

Prime Minister Chris Hipkins says Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s office was aware of a 2020 email, revealed by Stuff on Tuesday, in which sacked minister Stuart Nash divulged Cabinet discussions to two donors.

Neither Ardern nor her chief of staff were informed, Hipkins said, and the severe breach of Cabinet rules was not “covered up”.

But National Party leader Christopher Luxon said it was clear there had been a two-year cover up that suggested a broader culture of improper behaviour.

[Blue Skies]

If you want a good laugh, there's video doing the rounds of Judith Collins of all people, commenting on Ministerial ethics with a perfectly straight face, saying she has "never heard of a Minister in Cabinet reporting to someone outside Cabinet like that... its an extraordinary breach of trust"

Judith, remember John Key fired you & later stripped you of your title Honourable, yet you're still here!

[Panda-NZ-]

But National Party leader Christopher Luxon said it was clear there had been a two-year cover up that suggested a broader culture of improper behaviour.

When is the Sam Uffindel report going to be released?

[Balance]

When is the Sam Uffindel report going to be released?

Tell us about how Ryman should be loading up with more debt to do a share buyback, ignoramus peasant.

You have zero credibility.

Go kiss Davisson’s culturally brown arse.

[Balance]

If you want a good laugh, there's video doing the rounds of Judith Collins of all people, commenting on Ministerial ethics with a perfectly straight face, saying she has "never heard of a Minister in Cabinet reporting to someone outside Cabinet like that... its an extraordinary breach of trust"

Judith, remember John Key fired you & later stripped you of your title Honourable, yet you're still here!

She was reinstated after an inquiry cleared her - anyone with half a brain will not make a comparison with this incompetent and clueless Labour lot.

[Blue Skies]

She was reinstated after an inquiry cleared her - anyone with half a brain will not make a comparison with this incompetent and clueless Labour lot.


Oh, you mean the Chisholm Report which cleared Judith Collins name, but was criticised as being a "cover up" a "whitewash" and "the terms of the enquiry set by John Key are completely inadequate & will never get to the bottom of anything." - that inquiry !

Collins was donkey deep in Dirty Politics with Cam Slater.
She's in no position to be lecturing on Ministerial ethics, it's a pantomime. You can see she's putting on an act & doesn't believe what she's saying herself.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/253847/pm-defends-narrow-focus-of-inquiry

[dobby41]

Remember whenever National had internal crisis with their MP's & blimmy there were enough of them, and Jacinda Ardern would always take the high road & refuse to pass judgement or comment to the media, saying it was up to the other party to sort out.


You mean like Barbara Kuriger trying to use her position for her (or her family's) gain.
Still an MP!

[Balance]

You mean like Barbara Kuriger trying to use her position for her (or her family's) gain.
Still an MP!

She did not break confidentiality like Nash did as a cabinet minister. Savvy?

[Blue Skies]

She did not break confidentiality like Nash did as a cabinet minister. Savvy?


C'mon Balance, there's no comparison. As has been said & Stuart Nash is even being defended by Winston Peters, all he did was tell 2 of his constituents, he was disappointed with a Cabinet decision which had already been made public. Sure the way MP's vote in Cabinet decisions are supposed to be kept confidential, but do you seriously believe for 1 moment that National MP's or other MP's have never mentioned their Cabinet disagreements to lobbyists or constituents. You couldn't be so naive.
What's interesting is those 2 constituents, Troy Bowker & Greg Loverige who Stuart Nash was hoping to help sat on this all these years, but for some reason the email appears now. How, why?

Now Barbara Kuriger, is a whole different story. Her crime was using her position to attack & threaten MPI officials investigating & prosecuting her husband & sons appalling cruelty to animals. She sent 100's of email, over 50 on National Party letterhead, & tried to get at least 1 official fired.
How she is still in parliament is staggering, but there's a whole group of them, Uffindale, Hipango, Lee, Woodhouse, Collins, Mitchell, & others of seriously questionable character.
Here's the story.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/mps-emails-show-pattern-of-personal-attacks-on-ministry

[Balance]

C'mon Balance, there's no comparison. As has been said & Stuart Nash is even being defended by Winston Peters, all he did was tell 2 of his constituents, he was disappointed with a Cabinet decision which had already been made public. Sure the way MP's vote in Cabinet decisions are supposed to be kept confidential, but do you seriously believe for 1 moment that National MP's or other MP's have never mentioned their Cabinet disagreements to lobbyists or constituents. You couldn't be so naive.
What's interesting is those 2 constituents, Troy Bowker & Greg Loverige who Stuart Nash was hoping to help sat on this all these years, but for some reason the email appears now. How, why?

Now Barbara Kuriger, is a whole different story. Her crime was using her position to attack & threaten MPI officials investigating & prosecuting her husband & sons appalling cruelty to animals. She sent 100's of email, over 50 on National Party letterhead, & tried to get at least 1 official fired.
How she is still in parliament is staggering, but there's a whole group of them, Uffindale, Hipango, Lee, Woodhouse, Collins, Mitchell, & others of seriously questionable character.
Here's the story.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/mps-emails-show-pattern-of-personal-attacks-on-ministry

Garbage as usual from BS.

Nash was fired because he breached ministerial imperatives - simple.

Whatever the sins of others, he has no excuse and to his credit, he accepted that to be so.

BS artists like you are trying to minimise his indiscretions and inappropriate behaviour as a minister - does not work because we know you all learnt from the mistress of spin, Clueless Cindy the fallen woman.

[Blue Skies]

Garbage as usual from BS.

Nash was fired because he breached ministerial imperatives - simple.

Whatever the sins of others, he has no excuse and to his credit, he accepted that to be so.

BS artists like you are trying to minimise his indiscretions and inappropriate behaviour as a minister - does not work because we know you all learnt from the mistress of spin, Clueless Cindy the fallen woman.


Shall we let others judge the moral relativity.

[Balance]

Ombudsman to investigate further why Nash’s email was not released under OIA request - despite the email being discussed 3 (three) times.

The stench of cover up is overwhelming.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/487026/stuart-nash-accused-of-trying-to-hide-email-which-shared-cabinet-information

The timeline shows two staff members - Deputy chief of staff Holly Donald and a senior advisor - were aware of the OIA request, and it was discussed on three occasions.

Nash emailed them in response to the OIA request, and included the email sent to donors in it. The email was not escalated by the staff members, or released at the time, as Nash claimed it was sent in his capacity as an MP - not as a minister.

[jonu]

Ombudsman to investigate further why Nash’s email was not released under OIA request - despite the email being discussed 3 (three) times.

The stench of cover up is overwhelming.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/487026/stuart-nash-accused-of-trying-to-hide-email-which-shared-cabinet-information

The timeline shows two staff members - Deputy chief of staff Holly Donald and a senior advisor - were aware of the OIA request, and it was discussed on three occasions.

Nash emailed them in response to the OIA request, and included the email sent to donors in it. The email was not escalated by the staff members, or released at the time, as Nash claimed it was sent in his capacity as an MP - not as a minister.

Methinks Ardern and her close advisors would have been very clear what not to show to her. Clear and transparent....that's our Cindy! If they stumbled across this example, how many more are there? Arms length Ardern. We can only wonder how much more corrupt activity was going on in the PM's office.
Cabinet Manual breech? Not a problem, the boss doesn't want to know!

[tim23]

You mean like Barbara Kuriger trying to use her position for her (or her family's) gain.
Still an MP!
What about the Plonker in the restaurant “don’t you know who I am” - Gilmore and he’s still in the news fleecing property owners and his poor parents.

[Balance]

What about the Plonker in the restaurant “don’t you know who I am” - Gilmore and he’s still in the news fleecing property owners and his poor parents.

Mommy calling you boyo - milk time!

[tim23]

What about the Plonker in the restaurant “don’t you know who I am” - Gilmore and he’s still in the news fleecing property owners and his poor parents.
And I should mention Collins and Oravida - certainly a bit rich putting your 5c worth in Crusher.

[Baa_Baa]

Shall we let others judge the moral relativity.

Diversion to moral relativity is too early in this case and despite the point. Nash screwed up, pure and simple, he broke the Cabinet Rules which are sacrosanct. You seem to have some insights into parliamentary service, if so you would understand this.

He has also exposed the Labour elite to criticism that they may have overlooked, obscured or hidden subversion of the etiquette required to adhere to the rules of cabinet, as described in the manual, the rules.

He got fired, resigned, got fired again, whatever .. he's gone, and it has nothing to do with National, the Labour hierarchy kicked him for touch and are quickly tidying up the mess he created behind the scenes.

Sad really isn't it, the great grandson of the NZ Prime Minster Walter Nash. What an ignominious outcome for Stuart. He must be feeling awful about his transgressions, behaving above the rules, forsaking his forebears and ruining his family name.

You can try to divert to morals and relativity, but you have to look also at the situation right right now, Nash definitely screwed up and he's reaping those rewards for his arrogance and ignornance. It has nothing to do with any other party.

Hopefully it's not symptomatic of other Labour party ministers and members, who think they're above the rules of Cabinet, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume so.

Diversion is the weakest form of defence, it does not address the frailties of the accused who are plainly wrong by their own admission guilty of transgression, or cover for the possibility of hubris in the party who may believe they are above the rules, the law, or public scrutiny.

[Panda-NZ-]

Hillary's emails - the NZ edition.

It's a shame to lose a talented MP like this.

[Blue Skies]

Diversion to moral relativity is too early in this case and despite the point. Nash screwed up, pure and simple, he broke the Cabinet Rules which are sacrosanct. You seem to have some insights into parliamentary service, if so you would understand this.

He has also exposed the Labour elite to criticism that they may have overlooked, obscured or hidden subversion of the etiquette required to adhere to the rules of cabinet, as described in the manual, the rules.

He got fired, resigned, got fired again, whatever .. he's gone, and it has nothing to do with National, the Labour hierarchy kicked him for touch and are quickly tidying up the mess he created behind the scenes.

Sad really isn't it, the great grandson of the NZ Prime Minster Walter Nash. What an ignominious outcome for Stuart. He must be feeling awful about his transgressions, behaving above the rules, forsaking his forebears and ruining his family name.

You can try to divert to morals and relativity, but you have to look also at the situation right right now, Nash definitely screwed up and he's reaping those rewards for his arrogance and ignornance. It has nothing to do with any other party.

Hopefully it's not symptomatic of other Labour party ministers and members, who think they're above the rules of Cabinet, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume so.

Diversion is the weakest form of defence, it does not address the frailties of the accused who are plainly wrong by their own admission guilty of transgression, or cover for the possibility of hubris in the party who may believe they are above the rules, the law, or public scrutiny.



Although occasionally guilty, generally I try to avoid the 'whatabout-isms deflections as much as possible, & agree with you its no defence.

In this case however, I was responding to posts by 2 other posters where Balance implied Stuart Nash's offence was far worse than Barbara Kuriger's ( 3326).
Personally I don't believe its anywhere near as awful as using a position of authority as a Public Servant to threaten other people doing their job & even threaten their employment & was responding to Balance's post. Maybe others agree with Balance.
It wasn't a defence of Nash.

Apart from that I agree with everything you said, Stuart Nash has been foolish & as he said brought this on himself, damaging both his own & the governments reputation.

It was interesting to see ex National PM Simon Bridges say on the news tonight, how could Nash have been so stupid to put it in writing. ( i.e. Nash expressing his disagreement with the rest of Cabinet to someone outside Cabinet. )
Clearly implying Nash's mistake was getting caught for something most MP's & Ministers from both parties would have been guilty of at some stage. i.e. a quiet word is what you do, never put anything like that in writing.

Simon Bridges got caught out though over the $100,000 donation scandal when Jamie Lee Ross recorded their phone conversation. When you break the rules you better not fall out with anyone who knows about it. Politics is such a ruthless business.
So the level of outrage coming from Luxon & co while entirely predictable is politicking.

[Balance]

Although occasionally guilty, generally I try to avoid the 'whatabout-isms deflections as much as possible, & agree with you its no defence.

In this case however, I was responding to posts by 2 other posters where Balance implied Stuart Nash's offence was far worse than Barbara Kuriger's ( 3326).
Personally I don't believe its anywhere near as awful as using a position of authority as a Public Servant to threaten other people doing their job & even threaten their employment & was responding to Balance's post. Maybe others agree with Balance.
It wasn't a defence of Nash.

Apart from that I agree with everything you said, Stuart Nash has been foolish & as he said brought this on himself, damaging both his own & the governments reputation.

It was interesting to see ex National PM Simon Bridges say on the news tonight, how could Nash have been so stupid to put it in writing. ( i.e. Nash expressing his disagreement with the rest of Cabinet to someone outside Cabinet. )
Clearly implying Nash's mistake was getting caught for something most MP's & Ministers from both parties would have been guilty of at some stage. i.e. a quiet word is what you do, never put anything like that in writing.

Simon Bridges got caught out though over the $100,000 donation scandal when Jamie Lee Ross recorded their phone conversation. When you break the rules you better not fall out with anyone who knows about it. Politics is such a ruthless business.
So the level of outrage coming from Luxon & co while entirely predictable is politicking.

You are so full of BS that you now cannot even smell the stench of the BS*

The sequence of postings shows very clearly that you posted the 'whatabout-ism' deflection in the first instance - #3328 9.30am 30 March.


Remember whenever National had internal crisis with their MP's & blimmy there were enough of them, and Jacinda Ardern would always take the high road & refuse to pass judgement or comment to the media, saying it was up to the other party to sort out.

But here we have Luxon going all out on the Nash affair, calling for inquiry saying he should be sacked from parliament forcing a by-election (later walked back), saying what he would do if PM ( despite hiding the Uffindale report & doing zero about Barbara Kuriger for just a start).



Followed by post #3330 (1.58 pm) with yet another whatabout-ism :


If you want a good laugh, there's video doing the rounds of Judith Collins of all people, commenting on Ministerial ethics with a perfectly straight face, saying she has "never heard of a Minister in Cabinet reporting to someone outside Cabinet like that... its an extraordinary breach of trust"

Judith, remember John Key fired you & later stripped you of your title Honourable, yet you're still here!

To be followed by the ignoramus peasant posting yet another whatabout-ism post #3331 2.00pm.

Don't try and BS us, Blue Skies - Ardern did that for 5.5 years and she was 'booted' out of office after falling out of favour.

You can try better and lift your game & moral standing since you are so full of it apparently.

[dobby41]

She did not break confidentiality like Nash did as a cabinet minister. Savvy?

No she didn't - just tried to do stuff for her own gain.
A very untrustworthy person.

[tim23]

And I should mention Collins and Oravida - certainly a bit rich putting your 5c worth in Crusher.
Just thought of another - that drongo with quite a feminine name Jami-Lee - what a ripper!

[Balance]

No she didn't - just tried to do stuff for her own gain.
A very untrustworthy person.

LOL … as compared with the most transparent government & the one source of truth!

[Balance]

Meanwhile, Chip off the Ardern block Hipkins looking like he has been swallowing a lot of dead frogs and mice in the last week. LOL!

Not looking or sounding like a PM - more like a little boy caught out in a man’s game. LOL!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131660492/the-stuart-nash-saga-and-labours-fight-for-political-oxygen

[dobby41]

Did we see Luxon at all this last week?
Maybe they are working on bringing Willis to the front to lead?

[Balance]

Most transparent government ever!

So Sharma was right after all.

The person who held onto the Nash emails was the person Sharma said gave coaching on how to avoid the OIA. Incidentally, the new health Minister, Ayesha Verral, also coached on how to do this.

National just has to give Hipkins and Labour even more rope as they are already hanging themselves in knots from the web of deceit they tried to spin to deceive.

[fungus pudding]

Pity to see Chris Bishop go. I thought he had a promising future in politics.

[Blue Skies]

Pity to see Chris Bishop go. I thought he had a promising future in politics.


April fools. I think he's pranked you. Just resigning as captain of parliamentary cricket team.

[Balance]

This is a foreign minister best suited to represent NZ?

https://tvnz-1-news-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/J9xcz9QVZLgvf6rzji1INcAlVrA=/1024x683/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/tvnz/RHDCIFWTVBBE3LSUYX3CWPXGVI.jpg

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1657136930532-MV4L06X8S2Q6PIYVQ3ZD/clothes+allowance.jpg?format=300w

[Getty]

This is a foreign minister best suited to represent NZ?

https://tvnz-1-news-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/J9xcz9QVZLgvf6rzji1INcAlVrA=/1024x683/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/tvnz/RHDCIFWTVBBE3LSUYX3CWPXGVI.jpg

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1657136930532-MV4L06X8S2Q6PIYVQ3ZD/clothes+allowance.jpg?format=300w

Ah, but she is so diverse!

Isn't that what matters?

[dobby41]

This is a foreign minister best suited to represent NZ?

Why not?
Do you have an issue that she is a she or Maori?

[dobby41]

Good old Luxon - new energy policy will magic up some new wind and solar energy without any details on how.
Keep driving the cars he says - they aren't a problem.

[jonu]

Why not?
Do you have an issue that she is a she or Maori?

My issue with her is the covert agenda she ran with 5 waters. Even her cabinet were hoodwinked by her...or so they told us. She is not to be trusted.

[fungus pudding]

Why not?
Do you have an issue that she is a she or Maori?

I think it's the primitive 'bone through her nose' look that makes her an embarrasment as a representative, as I'm sure you realise.

[winner69]

Luxon must be close to being given the heave ho …he’s shallow as and seems incapable of growing as a politician, let alone a future statesman.

Nats won’t win election with him around ….roll him before it’s too late

[Balance]

Luxon must be close to being given the heave ho …he’s shallow as and seems incapable of growing as a politician, let alone a future statesman.

Nats won’t win election with him around ….roll him before it’s too late

Because he does not spin & BS like Ardern & Hipkins?

And make huge promises which will not be delivered?

Guess that's why more and more skilled NZers are leaving for Australia like the 5,000 nurses?

[davflaws]

I think it's the primitive 'bone through her nose' look that makes her an embarrasment as a representative, as I'm sure you realise.

That is either profoundly ignorant or blatantly racist or possibly both as I'm sure you should realise.

[Balance]

That is either profoundly ignorant or blatantly racist or possibly both as I'm sure you should realise.

It is what it is - she looks like a primitive peasant overseas.

Other countries send their best to represent the government and people overseas - Labour sends a PC diversified tattooed lightweight.

And seriously, how do you think the Asian countries react and think of her when they do their background research on her and find that she is married to her 1st cousin?

In most Asian societies, that is taboo for scientific and practical reasons. In fact, in parts of Asia, one cannot marry a person with the same surname!

[Balance]

Because he does not spin & BS like Ardern & Hipkins?

And make huge promises which will not be delivered?

Guess that's why more and more skilled NZers are leaving for Australia like the 5,000 nurses?

Seems like a big enough segment of NZers sure love the big promises, don’t they?

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!

Heathcare system better today than 3 years ago!

And they willingly accept the blatant BS and taxpayer funded spin uttered by the hypocrites and liars like Ardern & Hipkins.

[Blue Skies]

Because he does not spin & BS like Ardern & Hipkins?

And make huge promises which will not be delivered?

Guess that's why more and more skilled NZers are leaving for Australia like the 5,000 nurses?


In the interests of accuracy, 5,000 nurses have registered an interest to work in Australia, while at the roughly same time over 3,000 foreign nurses have registered an interest to work in NZ.
I don't think we know how many have actually left either for short term contracts or semi permanently, but its not likely to be anywhere near 5,000.
There's a huge world wide shortage of nurses.

There's always a trade off -

So what would people prefer, A) a small increase in taxes to further increase the pay for nurses & put our nursing ratio on par with Australia,
Or B) no increase in taxes & status quo ?

[Blue Skies]

Seems like a big enough segment of NZers sure love the big promises, don’t they?

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!

Heathcare system better today than 3 years ago!

And they willingly accept the blatant BS and taxpayer funded spin uttered by the hypocrites and liars like Ardern & Hipkins.



The Kiwibuild program was dropped, however a staggering 195,000 homes have been built under Labour in 5.5 years, i.e. 1 in 10 homes in NZ was built under this government.

For a comparison of key performance, only 157,000 homes were added in 9 years under National.

National left a housing deficit of 70,000 homes, that's down to about 5,000 now.

So looking at the hard data, which government has the better record on housing?

[fungus pudding]

In the interests of accuracy, 5,000 nurses have registered an interest to work in Australia, while at the roughly same time over 3,000 foreign nurses have registered an interest to work in NZ.
I don't think we know how many have actually left either for short term contracts or semi permanently, but its not likely to be anywhere near 5,000.
There's a huge world wide shortage of nurses.

There's always a trade off -

So what would people prefer, A) a small increase in taxes to further increase the pay for nurses & put our nursing ratio on par with Australia,
Or B) no increase in taxes & status quo ?

increasing taxes does not guarantee an increase in the tax take will be sufficient to offset the harm it does.

[777]

Tax taken is sufficient if distributed correctly. That is not happening. The more you give them, the more they will waste.

[westerly]

increasing taxes does not guarantee an increase in the tax take will be sufficient to offset the harm it does.

A couple of bottles of wine less a week?

westerly

[Panda-NZ-]

A couple of bottles of wine less a week?

westerly

They only care about tax cuts for the wealthy when they talk about this.

Labour offered GST off some items in past elections while National put it up to 15%.

National then halved tax incentives for kiwisaver and "cancelled" the $1k lump sum.

[Balance]

They only care about tax cuts for the wealthy when they talk about this.

Labour offered GST off some items in past elections while National put it up to 15%.

National then halved tax incentives for kiwisaver and "cancelled" the $1k lump sum.

Tell us how Ryman should take on more debt to buyback its shares as you wanted, ignoramus peasant.

That’s how bankrupt of economic sense or common sense you Labour losers are.

[nztx]

They only care about tax cuts for the wealthy when they talk about this.

Labour offered GST off some items in past elections while National put it up to 15%.

National then halved tax incentives for kiwisaver and "cancelled" the $1k lump sum.


How are the following going now under Labour ?

increasing INTEREST RATES

increasing INFLATION

increasing COST OF LIVING

and just about every other cost


Of course Labour hiking up the Minimum Wages is fine and well to offset but then
ignoring INCREASED PAYE and Deductions (Kiwisaver etc) leave many if not all
worse off out of it all :)

Amazingly Labour still haven't woken up to the error in their ways .. must be too hard .. :)

[tim23]

How are the following going now under Labour ?

increasing INTEREST RATES

increasing INFLATION

increasing COST OF LIVING

and just about every other cost


Of course Labour hiking up the Minimum Wages is fine and well to offset but then
ignoring INCREASED PAYE and Deductions (Kiwisaver etc) leave many if not all
worse off out of it all :)

Amazingly Labour still haven't woken up to the error in their ways .. must be too hard .. :)

The minimum wage rises every year and every year the right declare that there will be mass lay offs and reduced hiring - it seldom happens.

[CREEP]

In the interests of accuracy, 5,000 nurses have registered an interest to work in Australia, while at the roughly same time over 3,000 foreign nurses have registered an interest to work in NZ.
I don't think we know how many have actually left either for short term contracts or semi permanently, but its not likely to be anywhere near 5,000.
There's a huge world wide shortage of nurses.

There's always a trade off -

So what would people prefer, A) a small increase in taxes to further increase the pay for nurses & put our nursing ratio on par with Australia,
Or B) no increase in taxes & status quo ?

Interesting set of options BS, I can't figure out how you came to the conclusion that an increase in tax is required to pay nurses more? Has the tax take decreased under labour?

[Balance]

The Kiwibuild program was dropped, however a staggering 195,000 homes have been built under Labour in 5.5 years, i.e. 1 in 10 homes in NZ was built under this government.

For a comparison of key performance, only 157,000 homes were added in 9 years under National.

National left a housing deficit of 70,000 homes, that's down to about 5,000 now.

So looking at the hard data, which government has the better record on housing?

Absolute GARBAGE.

You are attempting yet again to use false and inaccurate statistics (from the Labour Party Spin Doctors as I have heard my insider there used the same stats) to hoodwink NZers.

There were no 195,000 homes built under Labour in the last 5.5 years - there were 208,391 dwellings CONSENTED between 2018 to 2022, and 189,940 consented between 2017 to 2021.

The 189,940 is the better number to use given the 6 to 18 months lag between consent and completion when consented dwellings actually get built.

Here's where the Labour government BS and Spin (so well used by Ardern & now, Hipkins) kick in to spread lies and misinformation to NZers out there :

CONSENTED numbers Do NOT = BUILT numbers because many consented dwellings do not end up getting built.

Try 70% built rate = 132,958 homes actually built under the Labour government.

(Eg. 27,875 built in 2021 vs 39,420 consented in 2020 ie. 71% or 57% of 2021 consented numbers)

You are so full of BS it's entirely appropriate Blue Skies = BS.

[Blue Skies]

"I like my Covid like I like my women, 19 & easy to spread"
More vileness from yet another of National's disgraceful candidate selections.

This from a 50 plus year old married white guy, who Chris Luxon thinks is an appropriate decent person of good character to represent their values in Parliament.
Remember Luxon promised to personally fix National's selection processes.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/131771613/how-an-offensive-joke-reveals-a-problem-with-how-national-choses-its-mps

[Balance]

"I like my Covid like I like my women, 19 & easy to spread"
More vileness from yet another of National's disgraceful candidate selections.

This from a 50 plus year old married white guy, who Chris Luxon thinks is an appropriate decent person of good character to represent their values in Parliament.
Remember Luxon promised to personally fix National's selection processes.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/131771613/how-an-offensive-joke-reveals-a-problem-with-how-national-choses-its-mps

We get it.

You prefer Labour’s selection process where candidates are selected for their woke values and their undying 100% obedience to the party line - like Hipkins who cannot define a woman and Poto Williams whose loyalty is to her race rather than the police/law & order.

Now, how about all the record number of houses built under Ardern & Labour in the last 5 years?

You got around yet to checking Labour Party BS before you follow & swallow like a sheep and regurgitate the BS out there?

One source of truth!

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!

[Blue Skies]

We get it.

You prefer Labour’s selection process where candidates are selected for their woke values and their undying 100% obedience to the party line - like Hipkins who cannot define a woman and Poto Williams whose loyalty is to her race rather than the police/law & order.

Now, how about all the record number of houses built under Ardern & Labour in the last 5 years?

You got around yet to checking Labour Party BS before you follow & swallow like a sheep and regurgitate the BS out there?

One source of truth!

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!



'Woke' simply means being politically & socially aware & open minded, so yes I would prefer that to bigoted, racist & narrow minded. Who wouldn't ?

There have been a record number of houses built under the Labour government.
Consents are extremely costly & time consuming, people do not go through the process unless intending to build & your assertion 30 % of Consents don't get built is incorrect.
Using your figures, 398,331 Consents were issued 2017- 2022. Nor do you account for the fact we're a quarter of the way through 2023.

And lastly, after thinking about it, Hipkins did provide an answer to the question if you bothered to listen. NZ settled this ages ago & we have a legal process if people want to change the sex on their birth certificate.

But I would say this, OMG looking at footage of the mostly men who turned up at the Anti-trans protests recently here in NZ, those obsessing about women's toilets & women's prisons, look exactly like the sort you would expect them to look like. Creepy, dirty old men (both literally & figuratively) !

[Balance]

Simple, Blue Skies, show us the official stats of the record 195,000 number of houses built under Ardern & Labour as you asserted.

You cannot because it’s BS.

You & Ardern/Hipkins can hookwink the unwashed out there but don’t try that stunt here. You have been found out and shame on you for blindly regurgitating Labour’s lies, misinformation and BS.

Now for the facts of just what a failure Labour's record is with housing :

“Since 2017 demand for social housing has increased roughly fivefold (500%).

On top of this are close to 4000 households living in emergency housing, such as motels, with costs of roughly $1 million a day, and the number of people living in cars has also increased.”

And the record is with tens of billions of dollars thrown at the problem with bugger all accountability and responsibility.

A record feast for consultants and numbers of civil servants however!

Remember this?

Jacinda Ardern said in 2017, ‘I refuse to stand by while children are sleeping in cars’.

[Blue Skies]

We get it.

You prefer Labour’s selection process where candidates are selected for their woke values and their undying 100% obedience to the party line - like Hipkins who cannot define a woman and Poto Williams whose loyalty is to her race rather than the police/law & order.

Now, how about all the record number of houses built under Ardern & Labour in the last 5 years?

You got around yet to checking Labour Party BS before you follow & swallow like a sheep and regurgitate the BS out there?

One source of truth!

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!




You don't even seem to find this challenging or worrying. Surely even the most dyed in the wool National supporters must think this guy is hideous.

National selecting a 50 plus year old man joking about liking to have sex with teenage girls as a suitable candidate ?

What will Luxon do about this?


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/131771613/how-an-offensive-joke-reveals-a-problem-with-how-national-chooses-its-mps

[tim23]

We get it.

You prefer Labour’s selection process where candidates are selected for their woke values and their undying 100% obedience to the party line - like Hipkins who cannot define a woman and Poto Williams whose loyalty is to her race rather than the police/law & order.

Now, how about all the record number of houses built under Ardern & Labour in the last 5 years?

You got around yet to checking Labour Party BS before you follow & swallow like a sheep and regurgitate the BS out there?

One source of truth!

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!
As usual you use diversion tactics - if you want to bother to reply to a post launch a reasonable argument.

[Balance]

As usual you use diversion tactics - if you want to bother to reply to a post launch a reasonable argument.

Your mommy is calling you - it's milk time!

[Balance]

There have been a record number of houses built under the Labour government.
Consents are extremely costly & time consuming, people do not go through the process unless intending to build & your assertion 30 % of Consents don't get built is incorrect.
Using your figures, 398,331 Consents were issued 2017- 2022. Nor do you account for the fact we're a quarter of the way through 2023.



Simple, Blue Skies, show us the official stats of the record 195,000 number of houses built under Ardern & Labour as you asserted.

You cannot because it’s BS.

You & Ardern/Hipkins can hookwink the unwashed out there but don’t try that stunt here. You have been found out and shame on you for blindly regurgitating Labour’s lies, misinformation and BS.

Now for the facts of just what a failure Labour's record is with housing :

“Since 2017 demand for social housing has increased roughly fivefold (500%).

On top of this are close to 4000 households living in emergency housing, such as motels, with costs of roughly $1 million a day, and the number of people living in cars has also increased.”

And the record is with tens of billions of dollars thrown at the problem with bugger all accountability and responsibility.

A record feast for consultants and numbers of civil servants however!

Remember this?

Jacinda Ardern said in 2017, ‘I refuse to stand by while children are sleeping in cars’.

[Balance]

More on Labour's dismal record on housing.

Here's the reason why housing is in crisis in NZ according to the OECD :

"The Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development’s (OECD) latest​ survey of New Zealand pinpointed the reason for those rampaging house prices as being the Government’s free-spending measures designed to support the country through the pandemic, along with the Reserve Bank’s printing tens of billions of dollars into the economy."

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/oecd-economic-surveys-new-zealand-2022_a4fd214c-en

Crocodile tears from Clueless Cindy about children living in cars as Labour proceeded to put more of them in tents, emergency accommodation and yes, more cars.

[jonu]

You don't even seem to find this challenging or worrying. Surely even the most dyed in the wool National supporters must think this guy is hideous.

National selecting a 50 plus year old man joking about liking to have sex with teenage girls as a suitable candidate ?

What will Luxon do about this?


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/131771613/how-an-offensive-joke-reveals-a-problem-with-how-national-chooses-its-mps

A more "balanced" view of Andrea Vance's false narrative about Mr Jack. All he did was repost a bunch of jokes from a comedian. Smacks of character assassination with a political motive to me. Nasty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWnLZWaapJU

[tim23]

A more "balanced" view of Andrea Vance's false narrative about Mr Jack. All he did was repost a bunch of jokes from a comedian. Smacks of character assassination with a political motive to me. Nasty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWnLZWaapJU

Not at all I think it says plenty about Jack - another poor selection from National - there are likely to be more.

[Balance]

Not at all I think it says plenty about Jack - another poor selection from National - there are likely to be more.

Mommy calling you - milk tim.

[fungus pudding]

A more "balanced" view of Andrea Vance's false narrative about Mr Jack. All he did was repost a bunch of jokes from a comedian. Smacks of character assassination with a political motive to me. Nasty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWnLZWaapJU

Plunkett is way off with his comments. He is attempting to defend Jack's position by claiming the joke wasn't original. So What? That is totally irrelevant. The point is he said it, and that is all Vance claimed and criticised. My only complaint is - it was corny, rather than funny.
That aside, he's an idiot for coming out with it in a public meeting.

[Baa_Baa]

Agree, what sort of moron thinks it's acceptable to say or repeat such abhorrent rhetoric, whether it be in jest or sincere. The guy screwed up and so do his supporters, maybe he was pissed or something. It'd probably take a few wines or beers to front these things, but they keep forgetting it affects what they say and do, which any professional knows not to mix the drinks with the business.

[Bjauck]

That is either profoundly ignorant or blatantly racist or possibly both as I'm sure you should realise. Some cultures regard tattoos as rough or signifying criminal connections, especially for a woman. Even many people from European cultures would look askance at a woman’s facial tattoo. Unlike Europeans resident in NZ, would they be aware of the traditional cultural significance? So as a foreign minister that could be an extra hurdle to overcome in diplomatic negotiations.

Mahuta accepted her tattoo would be a “curiosity.”
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/11/foreign-minister-nanaia-mahuta-accepts-moko-kauae-will-be-something-of-a-curiosity-as-author-olivia-pierson-faces-backlash-for-labelling-it-uncivilised.html

[jonu]

Plunkett is way off with his comments. He is attempting to defend Jack's position by claiming the joke wasn't original. So What? That is totally irrelevant. The point is he said it, and that is all Vance claimed and criticised. My only complaint is - it was corny, rather than funny.
That aside, he's an idiot for coming out with it in a public meeting.

He reposted it among a bunch of other jokes from a comedian. What do you mean by your reference to a public meeting?

[Blue Skies]

There'll be some pretty heavy late night discussions tonight with these further revelations !
Chris Luxon will be weighing up the trade offs.

He risks looking weak & out of touch if he doesn't now fire this guy who is totally unsuitable to be an MP, or foolish if he does - for defending the guy & as recently as a few days ago, defending National's problematic vetting/selection process has been much more rigorous and fixed since he took over as leader.


Nicola Willis has shown far more authority & leadership potential over her severe condemnation & strong response.

This is the 3rd terrible candidate selection Luxon's been presented with & to think he had to defend the guy & now this comes out.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300857204/national-candidate-shared-a-poem-likening-jacinda-ardern-to-adolf-hitler?cid=app-iPhone

[jonu]

There'll be some pretty heavy late night discussions tonight with these further revelations !
Chris Luxon will be weighing up the trade offs.

He risks looking weak & out of touch if he doesn't now fire this guy who is totally unsuitable to be an MP, or foolish if he does - for defending the guy & as recently as a few days ago, defending National's problematic vetting/selection process has been much more rigorous and fixed since he took over as leader.


Nicola Willis has shown far more authority & leadership potential over her severe condemnation & strong response.

This is the 3rd terrible candidate selection Luxon's been presented with & to think he had to defend the guy & now this comes out.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300857204/national-candidate-shared-a-poem-likening-jacinda-ardern-to-adolf-hitler?cid=app-iPhone

Labour's cancel culture to the fore IMHO. There are many of a blue tinge who found Ardern's manipulation of the media and information despicable. Orwellian even. This candidate maybe crass. I'd be more concerned about his competency. We have seen 5 and a half years of diversity selections at the expense of competency from Labour. And look at the shambles it has led to in Cabinet.

The comedians Dave Chapelle, Eddie Murphy and Ricky Gervais are all capable of being crass and politically incorrect. I don't agree with everything they say, but I find them funny.

Stick with policy critique. People get to vote. That's where it counts, not by silencing every opinion or sense of humour you don't agree with. Enough with the humour police!

[fungus pudding]

He reposted it among a bunch of other jokes from a comedian. What do you mean by your reference to a public meeting?

Sorry. I thought he had stated it somewhere. I now realise he posted it online somewhere. My mistake.
Anyway he's pulled out of the running now.

[nztx]

and it's Jack be gone:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-candidate-stephen-jack-under-fire-again-for-sharing-poem-likening-jacinda-ardern-to-hitler/FFBRKTRDIZDNFEPNQVIFN7ERCI/


National candidate Stephen Jack resigns

[Blue Skies]

I guess their internal polling with focus groups says it's worth doing, but this new National agriculture policy of getting rid of 2 old regulations for every new regulation imposed, seems reckless & insane.
Remember populous Trump did this while campaigning in 2017 saying for every new regulation around the environment or food & drug safety, they would get rid of 2 old ones.
Of course it didn't work, you can't treat regulations like play chips on a poker table, & when Todd McClay was asked does National have a list of regulations ready to get rid of, he said no.
They just seem to make stuff up with no cost benefit analysis or rational for it.

Also to reverse the coming ban on Live animal exports is asking for major problems.
It may be supported by a few National supporting Farmers who were going to vote National anyway, but upset a lot of urban voters & foreign buyers like the Tesco's & do enormous damage to NZ's Animal welfare & Agriculture reputation.
Film of suffering livestock being crushed against ships rails & falling into the sea from a sinking livestock ship, & animals dying of thirst is so inhumane & disgusting, its hard to understand why National would want to reverse the ban & seems so out of touch in 2023.

[Getty]

Film of suffering livestock being crushed against ships rails & falling into the sea from a sinking livestock ship, .

The Titanic film never killed off the Cruise industry BS.

[dobby41]

Labour's cancel culture to the fore IMHO. There are many of a blue tinge who found Ardern's manipulation of the media and information despicable. Orwellian even. This candidate maybe crass. I'd be more concerned about his competency. We have seen 5 and a half years of diversity selections at the expense of competency from Labour. And look at the shambles it has led to in Cabinet.

The comedians Dave Chapelle, Eddie Murphy and Ricky Gervais are all capable of being crass and politically incorrect. I don't agree with everything they say, but I find them funny.

Stick with policy critique. People get to vote. That's where it counts, not by silencing every opinion or sense of humour you don't agree with. Enough with the humour police!

He's gone and so he should be.
Luxon says he supports their robust selection processes (which he set up) but this one slipped through?
He may have posted someone elses joke but showed a total lack of political sense - it was just stupid. But that National for you - select bullies and people like Jack.

[dobby41]

I guess their internal polling with focus groups says it's worth doing, but this new National agriculture policy of getting rid of 2 old regulations for every new regulation imposed, seems reckless & insane.
Remember populous Trump did this while campaigning in 2017 saying for every new regulation around the environment or food & drug safety, they would get rid of 2 old ones.
Of course it didn't work, you can't treat regulations like play chips on a poker table, & when Todd McClay was asked does National have a list of regulations ready to get rid of, he said no.
They just seem to make stuff up with no cost benefit analysis or rational for it.

Also to reverse the coming ban on Live animal exports is asking for major problems.
It may be supported by a few National supporting Farmers who were going to vote National anyway, but upset a lot of urban voters & foreign buyers like the Tesco's & do enormous damage to NZ's Animal welfare & Agriculture reputation.
Film of suffering livestock being crushed against ships rails & falling into the sea from a sinking livestock ship, & animals dying of thirst is so inhumane & disgusting, its hard to understand why National would want to reverse the ban & seems so out of touch in 2023.

National pandering to Farmers - 2 for 1 deal indeed. If a policy is bad just remove it - don't wait for something you think is 'good'. What happens if they run out of 'bad' policies? Don't add new ones?
Are they some discount house or a serious political party?

As for getting more immigrants in - double the RSE workers (if they can get them), pay them less, give them a pathway to residency (so not RSE workers now.
No mention of housing, schools, hospitals or infrastructure for the increased population - just like last time our GDP 'growth' was driven mostly by immigration under Key/English - left us in a bit of a mess.

[iceman]

He's gone and so he should be.
Luxon says he supports their robust selection processes (which he set up) but this one slipped through?
He may have posted someone elses joke but showed a total lack of political sense - it was just stupid. But that National for you - select bullies and people like Jack.

Yet you supported Mallard the Bully in Chief and where is the criticism of Marama Davidson, Willie Jackson, Elizabeth Kerekere and all the other racists and bullies in Labour The Greens ?

[Getty]

As for getting more immigrants in - double the RSE workers (if they can get them), pay them less, give them a pathway to residency (so not RSE workers now.
No mention of housing, schools, hospitals or infrastructure for the increased population - just like last time our GDP 'growth' was driven mostly by immigration under Key/English - left us in a bit of a mess.

A contradiction there.
If you have your way, granting RSE's residency, then pressure will go on the sectors you mention, as they bring in their families.

Currently only 1 partner of a relationship comes in to work, spouses and kids stay in their home country.

When work finishes, its back home to the family.

Remember there is 2 countries in the transaction, and the home country want their able bodied people back, with a bit of NZ money to show for it.

[davflaws]

Currently only 1 partner of a relationship comes in to wok, spouses and kids stay in their home country.

When work finishes, its back home to the family.

Remember there is 2 countries in the transaction, and the home country want their able bodied people back, with a bit of NZ money to show for it.

Good point in the short term for sure. I'm not sure about the effect on technology development and uptake. Ultimately, I think we should try to automate the jobs locals don't/can't/won't do, and import as many highly skilled people as we can.

[dobby41]

Sums it up really.
I do hope that they'll get some real policies soon - a real Leader might help.
14552

[Panda-NZ-]

National pandering to Farmers - 2 for 1 deal indeed. If a policy is bad just remove it - don't wait for something you think is 'good'. What happens if they run out of 'bad' policies? Don't add new ones?
Are they some discount house or a serious political party?


Does Luxon understand farmers? He's been living in various cities forever.

Is the hat and photo ops enough for regional NZ?

They tick blue but seem to go down in their economic "outcomes".

[Balance]

Does Luxon understand farmers? He's been living in various cities forever.

Is the hat and photo ops enough for regional NZ?

They tick blue but seem to go down in economic "outcomes".

Panda-nz, the ignoramus peasant who wanted Ryman to load up with more debt to do a share buyback when the company was close to default on its loans.

[Balance]

Sums it up really.
I do hope that they'll get some real policies soon - a real Leader might help.


We get it - people like you and davflaws love a leader like Ardern:

All talk, big promises, spin, BS and no delivery.

Words for you matter more than action and delivery.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1640045900608-C3KLVP6AU2G0VNQSH571/glove+puppet.jpg?format=500w

Luxon is definitely not your type of leader :

He does not spin & BS like Ardern & Hipkins.

And he does not make huge promises which will not be delivered.

[Panda-NZ-]

He does not spin & BS like Ardern & Hipkins.


Water done well. Teaching the basics brilliantly. Getting back to farming.

Zero details.

[Balance]

Water done well. Teaching the basics brilliantly. Getting back to farming.

Zero details.

panda-nz, the ignoramus peasant who wanted Ryman to load up with more debt to do a share buyback when it was close to default.

[Ferg]

He reposted it among a bunch of other jokes from a comedian. What do you mean by your reference to a public meeting?
What actually happened jonu? Did he make the remarks? If so, was he paraphrasing someone else? Or did he post a link of someone else saying it?

[jonu]

What actually happened jonu? Did he make the remarks? If so, was he paraphrasing someone else? Or did he post a link of someone else saying it?

I gather he reposted a bunch of jokes from a comedian's set. It included the questionable Covid-19 joke. He didn't tell the joke himself. Andrea Vance was rightfully called out by Sean Plunkett on this BS, and frankly our own Fungus Pudding owes him, not me, an apology for falling into the misinformation trap Vance set. As a result, Mr Jack's political career is toast, but at least the humour police have had their say.

I don't have a view on Mr Jack. His sense of humour and mine may well vary, but I'm more interested in an MP's competency. Have a look at the Labour Cabinet to see where diversity selection gets us.

Labour, and the Left generally, have become the new Puritans. Orwellian in their ferreting out any variation from the party line. As a result, our PM is too frightened to define what a woman is.

[Blue Skies]

I gather he reposted a bunch of jokes from a comedian's set. It included the questionable Covid-19 joke. He didn't tell the joke himself. Andrea Vance was rightfully called out by Sean Plunkett on this BS, and frankly our own Fungus Pudding owes him, not me, an apology for falling into the misinformation trap Vance set. As a result, Mr Jack's political career is toast, but at least the humour police have had their say.

I don't have a view on Mr Jack. His sense of humour and mine may well vary, but I'm more interested in an MP's competency. Have a look at the Labour Cabinet to see where diversity selection gets us.

Labour, and the Left generally, have become the new Puritans. Orwellian in their ferreting out any variation from the party line. As a result, our PM is too frightened to define what a woman is.




I might have missed something but can't see the rationale for accusing Labour & the Left generally for being the new Puritans, Orwellian etc, when all the condemnation of this guy is coming from Chris Luxon, Nicolla Willis & Erica Stamford.

Am quite sure Labour would have been quite happy to see him remain as the National candidate for a bit longer as he was such a liability.


It was Luxon, & Willis & Stamford who cancelled him, called him a disgrace, his posts revolting etc. It was his own National leaders, who wanted to get rid of him for varying from the party line (your words).
Puritans ? Orwellian?

[jonu]

I might have missed something but can't see the rationale for accusing Labour & the Left generally for being the new Puritans, Orwellian etc, when all the condemnation of this guy is coming from Chris Luxon, Nicolla Willis & Erica Stamford.

Am quite sure Labour would have been quite happy to see him remain as the National candidate for a bit longer as he was such a liability.


It was Luxon, & Willis & Stamford who cancelled him, called him a disgrace, his posts revolting etc. It was his own National leaders, who wanted to get rid of him for varying from the party line (your words).
Puritans ? Orwellian?

Disingenuous BS Blueskies. While it is true Luxon et al have crumbled before the cancel culture mob, the hit job was done by Andrea Vance and I believe it was yourself who had a good rant on this forum. By all means have a debate, but don't insult us with Ardern style BS.

[Ferg]

I gather he reposted a bunch of jokes from a comedian's set. It included the questionable Covid-19 joke. He didn't tell the joke himself. Andrea Vance was rightfully called out by Sean Plunkett on this BS, and frankly our own Fungus Pudding owes him, not me, an apology for falling into the misinformation trap Vance set. As a result, Mr Jack's political career is toast, but at least the humour police have had their say.

Thanks Jonu for clarifying. Reading earlier posts of Blue Skies and fungus pudding they had me believing he had uttered the words. So we have more disinformation being peddled by Andrea Vance (in lying by omission?) and their mouthpieces here echoing the spin, lies and mistruths.

For the record:

The point is he said it, and that is all Vance claimed and criticised.


National selecting a 50 plus year old man joking about liking to have sex with teenage girls


"I like my Covid like I like my women, 19 & easy to spread"
More vileness from yet another of National's disgraceful candidate selections.

Blue Skies and fungus pudding should be ashamed of themselves for lying by omission and insinuating he said those words. But wait there's more:


This from a 50 plus year old married white guy, who Chris Luxon thinks is an appropriate decent person of good character to represent their values in Parliament.

Meanwhile BS shows their true identity politics colours by bringing in the chaps skin colour. Why was that necessary - is BS trying to paint a person in the worst possible light? Disgusting disinformation posts. And typical identity politics nonsense.

[Balance]

Blue Skies is a Labour Party plant on Sharetrader whose purpose is to spread misinformation, lies and spin - out of the Labour Party dirty playbook.

Of that, there cannot be any more doubt.

[Panda-NZ-]

Blue Skies is a Labour Party plant on Sharetrader whose purpose is to spread misinformation, lies and spin - out of the Labour Party dirty playbook.

He's teaching the basics brilliantly.

[Balance]

He's teaching the basics brilliantly.

Panda-nz, the ignoramus peasant who wanted Ryman to load up with more debt to do a share buyback when the company was close to default on its loans.


NTA is over $7..

Should do a share repurchase, with some debt if necessary.

[fungus pudding]

Thanks Jonu for clarifying. Reading earlier posts of Blue Skies and fungus pudding they had me believing he had uttered the words. So we have more disinformation being peddled by Andrea Vance (in lying by omission?) and their mouthpieces here echoing the spin, lies and mistruths.

For the record:






Blue Skies and fungus pudding should be ashamed of themselves for lying by omission and insinuating he said those words. But wait there's more:
ile BS shows their true identity politics colours by bringing in the chaps skin colour. Why was that necessary - is BS trying to paint a person in the worst possible light? Disgusting disinformation posts. And typical identity politics nonsense.

I certainly don't owe him any apology. I simply noted he posted a corny old 'joke.' Seems to be a fact - so why apologise?

[Balance]

I certainly don't owe him any apology. I simply noted he posted a corny old 'joke.' Seems to be a fact - so why apologise?

You did NOT.

You asserted and posted that HE SAID IT.


Plunkett is way off with his comments. He is attempting to defend Jack's position by claiming the joke wasn't original. So What? That is totally irrelevant. The point is he said it, and that is all Vance claimed and criticised. My only complaint is - it was corny, rather than funny.
That aside, he's an idiot for coming out with it in a public meeting.

[jonu]

I certainly don't owe him any apology. I simply noted he posted a corny old 'joke.' Seems to be a fact - so why apologise?

My suggestion (perhaps not clearly put) was that you owed Sean Plunkett an apology after you claiming he was out of line in exposing Vance's character assassination on Mr Jack.

[fungus pudding]

You did NOT.

You asserted and posted that HE SAID IT.

Apologies - should have written he claimed it.

[dobby41]

Yet you supported Mallard the Bully in Chief and where is the criticism of Marama Davidson, Willie Jackson, Elizabeth Kerekere and all the other racists and bullies in Labour The Greens ?

Did I? Or do you just think I did?

[dobby41]

A contradiction there.
If you have your way, granting RSE's residency, then pressure will go on the sectors you mention, as they bring in their families.

Currently only 1 partner of a relationship comes in to work, spouses and kids stay in their home country.

When work finishes, its back home to the family.

Remember there is 2 countries in the transaction, and the home country want their able bodied people back, with a bit of NZ money to show for it.

If I have MY way?
This is the National way - not mine.

I agree that the policy could put other countries in a worse position.
RSE is RSE - seasonal! National want to make it permanent.
If they want to come permanently they could try another visa category.

[dobby41]

I gather he reposted a bunch of jokes from a comedian's set. It included the questionable Covid-19 joke. He didn't tell the joke himself. Andrea Vance was rightfully called out by Sean Plunkett on this BS, and frankly our own Fungus Pudding owes him, not me, an apology for falling into the misinformation trap Vance set. As a result, Mr Jack's political career is toast, but at least the humour police have had their say.

I don't have a view on Mr Jack. His sense of humour and mine may well vary, but I'm more interested in an MP's competency. Have a look at the Labour Cabinet to see where diversity selection gets us.

Labour, and the Left generally, have become the new Puritans. Orwellian in their ferreting out any variation from the party line. As a result, our PM is too frightened to define what a woman is.

Seems that Luxon and Willis agree that he should be gone - maybe they are Puritans also?

[jonu]

Seems that Luxon and Willis agree that he should be gone - maybe they are Puritans also?

As I said earlier, they caved to the cancel culture. Blue Skies tried the same angle....after joining the pile on by taking a puritanical view of how awful the whole situation was. Again, as I said earlier, enough of the humour police!

[RupertBear]

Thanks Jonu for clarifying. Reading earlier posts of Blue Skies and fungus pudding they had me believing he had uttered the words. So we have more disinformation being peddled by Andrea Vance (in lying by omission?) and their mouthpieces here echoing the spin, lies and mistruths.

For the record:






Blue Skies and fungus pudding should be ashamed of themselves for lying by omission and insinuating he said those words. But wait there's more:



Meanwhile BS shows their true identity politics colours by bringing in the chaps skin colour. Why was that necessary - is BS trying to paint a person in the worst possible light? Disgusting disinformation posts. And typical identity politics nonsense.

WOW your outrage at Blue Skies and fungus pudding is astounding Ferg. I am quite surprised by it as I have found you to be a very well reasoned poster up until now. Now I cant fathom why your outrage is directed at them and not at Jacks??

The issue IMO is not whether Jacks actually said these things (he may well have done) the real issue is him thinking the content of what he posted on Facebook was ok. It was not.

Luxon and Willis and others in the National party have rightly called his Facebook post crass and disgusting and they are glad he has resigned. Good on them. He has no one else to blame for this but himself.

While Jonu might think Luxon caved to the cancel culture and the humour police I beg to differ. There was absolutely NOTHING funny in Jacks Facebook post. It was obscene and thinking it was ok to post it tells us a lot about the man. It is no wonder National are distancing themselves from him. I believe Luxon was very genuine when he said “as a father of a 21 year old daughter, I found those comments crass and offensive and sexist.” Good on him

[dobby41]

They do have selection issues
14557

[Getty]

When is all this racial discrimination that Labour introduced going to end?

Watching the warm up to the Blues Waratahs game.

The female commentator gets a caption showing her tribal connections, yet Liam MacDonald gets no credit for being Celtic Anglo Saxon Latin cross.

Who feels double crossed!

[nztx]

When is all this racial discrimination that Labour introduced going to end?

Watching the warm up to the Blues Waratahs game.

The female commentator gets a caption showing her tribal connections, yet Liam MacDonald gets no credit for being Celtic Anglo Saxon Latin cross.

Who feels double crossed!



Didn't they make it illegal some time back ? :)

or does that rule only apply to just some and another bunch have exemption passes ?

What happens when the current mob of Parliamentary Bootlickers and other curious excuses
for any old sort of desperate talent get sent packing ? ;)

[dobby41]

When is all this racial discrimination that Labour introduced going to end?

Watching the warm up to the Blues Waratahs game.

The female commentator gets a caption showing her tribal connections, yet Liam MacDonald gets no credit for being Celtic Anglo Saxon Latin cross.

Who feels double crossed!

Liam MacDonald probably could get credit if he wanted it!
Where is the discrimination?

[Getty]

Liam MacDonald probably could get credit if he wanted it!
Where is the discrimination?

Yeah, discrimination is probably too strong, but for years Maori have been on TV without the need for any Tribal claim.
Other races still appear without all their clans and ethnic makeup captioned, because they evolved and moved on from such definitions centuries ago.
Why the patronising need now for just one race to display that everytime they are on TV now?

[dobby41]

Yeah, discrimination is probably too strong, but for years Maori have been on TV without the need for any Tribal claim.
Other races still appear without all their clans and ethnic makeup captioned, because they evolved and moved on from such definitions centuries ago.
Why the patronising need now for just one race to display that everytime they are on TV now?

Maybe they are proud of their heritage and Pakeha aren't?
If they even know where they really hail from.

[Getty]

Yeah, discrimination is probably too strong, but for years Maori have been on TV without the need for any Tribal claim.
Other races still appear without all their clans and ethnic makeup captioned, because they evolved and moved on from such definitions centuries ago.
Why the patronising need now for just one race to display that everytime they are on TV now?

And may l ask why those of mixed race, which must be most as there are few full blooded Maori left, give no 'credit' or acknowledgement of their European, or Asian blood?
Who's calling the shots?

[BDL]

maori think they are "special", but they are really just a bunch of greedy as*holes who deserve no respect anymore.

But dobby will stick up for them.

[Panda-NZ-]

Given Nat/Act are in the pocket of business interests who scream about labour shortages what's the bet they will try to pressure australia over the recent change.

It's a dilemna, but I'd rather they turn NZ into Southern India with 200k per year arrivals and give the rest of NZ a chance to escape, than try to trap people here on low wages and poverty.

[jonu]

Given Nat/Act are in the pocket of business interests who scream about labour shortages what's the bet they will try to pressure australia over the recent change.

It's a dilemna but I'd rather they turn NZ into southern India with 200k per year and give the rest of NZ a chance to escape than to trap people here on low wages and poverty.

I have to assume you are trolling, but in the slim chance you aren't....how about making NZ the best it can be on its own terms? A proud, resilient, self-reliant, innovative people who others wish to emulate? Remember when Kiwis thought that of themselves?

[Panda-NZ-]

The third option (that’s most unlikely) is to raise wages and lower rents, but that's off the agenda for National/act and Labour doesn't want to touch the latter.

[davflaws]

I have to assume you are trolling, but in the slim chance you aren't....how about making NZ the best it can be on its own terms? A proud, resilient, self-reliant, innovative people who others wish to emulate? Remember when Kiwis thought that of themselves?

Yup - but probably my memory of what that was and when we had it is different from yours. Who wouldn't want to live among "proud, resilient, self-reliant, innovative people who others wish to emulate".

But exactly what that might look like would probably depend on who you were and your personal circumstances as well as what you valued. And how we get back there (wherever it is) will also depend on who you are and what you value.

Over a particular level of material prosperity (which we exceeded a long time ago), in more equal societies everyone is healthier and happier. I believe that that is the direction we should go, and that that is most likely to produce a country that is "proud, resilient, self-reliant, innovative people who others wish to emulate"

Capitalism works brilliantly in producing goods and services, but is guaranteed to produce increasing inequality and misery unless it is regulated. It seems to me that the question of how and how much is an important one.

"Socialist" democracies seem to regulate capitalism pretty well, in that they top the happiness stakes every year, and they seem to have no problem with innovation.

[jonu]

Yup - but probably my memory of what that was and when we had it is different from yours. Who wouldn't want to live among "proud, resilient, self-reliant, innovative people who others wish to emulate".

But exactly what that might look like would probably depend on who you were and your personal circumstances as well as what you valued. And how we get back there (wherever it is) will also depend on who you are and what you value.

Over a particular level of material prosperity (which we exceeded a long time ago), in more equal societies everyone is healthier and happier. I believe that that is the direction we should go, and that that is most likely to produce a country that is "proud, resilient, self-reliant, innovative people who others wish to emulate"

Capitalism works brilliantly in producing goods and services, but is guaranteed to produce increasing inequality and misery unless it is regulated. It seems to me that the question of how and how much is an important one.

"Socialist" democracies seem to regulate capitalism pretty well, in that they top the happiness stakes every year, and they seem to have no problem with innovation.

If you are referring to the Socialist democracies of Scandinavia, the big difference there is that they have massive tax revenues from the North Sea Oil fields. We don't have that luxury and almost certainly never will thanks to Labour and the Greens.

As always there is no simple answer, but turning our society into a senses dulled, State reliant, non-productive mess aint working too well is it?

[Panda-NZ-]

If you are referring to the Socialist democracies of Scandinavia, the big difference there is that they have massive tax revenues from the North Sea Oil fields. We don't have that luxury and almost certainly never will thanks to Labour and the Greens.

As always there is no simple answer, but turning our society into a senses dulled, State reliant, non-productive mess aint working too well is it?

We have near-free electricity sourced from dams which were built many decades ago but the market sees fit to charge some of the highest prices in the world.

[davflaws]

If you are referring to the Socialist democracies of Scandinavia, the big difference there is that they have massive tax revenues from the North Sea Oil fields. We don't have that luxury and almost certainly never will thanks to Labour and the Greens.

As always there is no simple answer, but turning our society into a senses dulled, State reliant, non-productive mess aint working too well is it?

Yup. I am thinking about the Nordic countries. And Norway does get a lot of wealth from oil and gas (75% of Scandinavian production). But what about Sweden (13%), Finland (7%), Denmark (3%), Iceland (2%)? They have do be doing something else right - don't they?

As for the "senses dulled" rant portion of your post - since we are in the top 10 for happiness, it seems to me that we are not doing too badly - the question is how can we do better?

I think we should follow the Nordic example.

[Balance]

Yup. I am thinking about the Nordic countries. And Norway does get a lot of wealth from oil and gas (75% of Scandinavian production). But what about Sweden (13%), Finland (7%), Denmark (3%), Iceland (2%)? They have do be doing something else right - don't they?

As for the "senses dulled" rant portion of your post - since we are in the top 10 for happiness, it seems to me that we are not doing too badly - the question is how can we do better?

I think we should follow the Nordic example.

You got over your cultural cringe yet or still believe that NZers have no culture or heritage unless they are Maori or adopt Maori culture?

[Balance]

Given Nat/Act are in the pocket of business interests who scream about labour shortages what's the bet they will try to pressure australia over the recent change.

It's a dilemna, but I'd rather they turn NZ into Southern India with 200k per year arrivals and give the rest of NZ a chance to escape, than try to trap people here on low wages and poverty.


The solution though is obviously to bring in uncapped labourers from India with a free trade deal (get rid of high paying IT jobs and swap them over for fruit pickers ).

panda-nz, the ignoramus peasant who wanted Ryman to load up with more debt to do a share buyback when it was close to default.


NTA is over $7..

Should do a share repurchase, with some debt if necessary.

[jonu]

Yup. I am thinking about the Nordic countries. And Norway does get a lot of wealth from oil and gas (75% of Scandinavian production). But what about Sweden (13%), Finland (7%), Denmark (3%), Iceland (2%)? They have do be doing something else right - don't they?

As for the "senses dulled" rant portion of your post - since we are in the top 10 for happiness, it seems to me that we are not doing too badly - the question is how can we do better?

I think we should follow the Nordic example.

7% and 13% of GDP or the tax take? Either way it must be a hell of a lot more than us.

The senses dulled "rant" is backed up by the top 10 happiness survey IMHO. Give the people the games. Cheap alcohol. Plenty of dope. Chilled as bro.
We lack the work ethic of the Scandinavian countries. Having to survive harsh winters makes for a self-reliant, resilient populace. They also benefited hugely from emerging unscathed from WW1&2. I don't think those countries make for an adequate comparison.

[davflaws]

7% and 13% of GDP or the tax take? Either way it must be a hell of a lot more than us.

The senses dulled "rant" is backed up by the top 10 happiness survey IMHO. Give the people the games. Cheap alcohol. Plenty of dope. Chilled as bro.
We lack the work ethic of the Scandinavian countries. Having to survive harsh winters makes for a self-reliant, resilient populace. They also benefited hugely from emerging unscathed from WW1&2. I don't think those countries make for an adequate comparison.

13% and 7% of total North Sea oil production. Oil doesn't rate a mention in any list of Swedish economic activity I can find. And Sweden may have emerged unscathed from WWII, but Denmark Norway, and Finland certainly didn't.

So we are 10th happiest in the world only because we are pissed and stoned and entertained?

And since the Nordics have nothing to teach us, we would be better off taking a sharp turn to the right?

All of us? Or only the ones near the top of the heap?

The squirming and wriggling that the right have to keep doing in order to discount the continuing success of the Scandinavian socialist model would be marginally amusing if it wasn't so sad.

[Balance]

13% and 7% of total North Sea oil production. Oil doesn't rate a mention in any list of Swedish economic activity I can find. And Sweden may have emerged unscathed from WWII, but Denmark Norway, and Finland certainly didn't.

So we are 10th happiest in the world only because we are pissed and stoned and entertained?

And since the Nordics have nothing to teach us, we would be better off taking a sharp turn to the right?

All of us? Or only the ones near the top of the heap?



Garbage as usual from the culturally deprived & heritage bankrupted davflaws.

How about Maori culture and heritage? You still asserting that NZers have no culture or heritage unless they adopt Maori culture or are Māoris?

[jonu]

13% and 7% of total North Sea oil production. Oil doesn't rate a mention in any list of Swedish economic activity I can find. And Sweden may have emerged unscathed from WWII, but Denmark Norway, and Finland certainly didn't.

So we are 10th happiest in the world only because we are pissed and stoned and entertained?

And since the Nordics have nothing to teach us, we would be better off taking a sharp turn to the right?

All of us? Or only the ones near the top of the heap?

The squirming and wriggling that the right have to keep doing in order to discount the continuing success of the Scandinavian socialist model would be marginally amusing if it wasn't so sad.

My point is NZ is a very different kettle of fish to Scandinavia. No squirming or wriggling. And I wouldn't dismiss the pissed, stoned and entertained factor. The Romans knew a thing or two about keeping the masses compliant.

[Panda-NZ-]

Yeah how do they make it work in freezing temperatures which requires heaps of workarounds while being next to Putin's Russia, compared to valuable economic powerhouses like Australia and China.

[Balance]

Yeah how do they make it work in freezing temperatures which requires heaps of workarounds while being next to putin's Russia, compared to valuable economic powerhouses like Australia and China.

Ignoramus peasant who wanted Ryman to load up with more debt to buy back shares when the company was close to default on its debts.

[dobby41]

Someone's record is stuck in a groove!

[dobby41]

maori think they are "special", but they are really just a bunch of greedy as*holes who deserve no respect anymore.

But dobby will stick up for them.

It isn't a matter of sticking up for them - do you know if Pakeha can credit their Whakapapa in their name caption?
Personally, I have no idea if that would be a goer - maybe they just never asked?

[nztx]

Someone's record is stuck in a groove!


Someone must be a slow learner :)

[Blue Skies]

Despite the explosive revelations an average worker pays tax at over twice the rate of the super wealthy, Christopher Luxon is adamant our tax system is "broadly fair'.
As leader of the opposition, it beggars belief he didn't have a better response prepared, esp as he's in the privileged super wealthy category.

How tone deaf, how does he expect the average battling Kiwi to feel about that.
Why wouldn't it be fairer if it was a level playing field & everyone payed the same rate?

Cant imagine John Key or Bill English being caught so flat footed.
Chris Luxon's going to drag National to defeat if they're not careful.

[BDL]

Maori trust's need to pay tax and rates at same rate as everyone else.

17.5% compared to 33% for everyone else.

If we want a "fair" tax system.

[nztx]

Maori trust's need to pay tax and rates at same rate as everyone else.

17.5% compared to 33% for everyone else.

If we want a "fair" tax system.


And the Religious Sector's Commercial Arms too

Wipe the Corporate donation deductibility as well where the donation goes to a Religion parent ..

[jonu]

Despite the explosive revelations an average worker pays tax at over twice the rate of the super wealthy, Christopher Luxon is adamant our tax system is "broadly fair'.
As leader of the opposition, it beggars belief he didn't have a better response prepared, esp as he's in the privileged super wealthy category.

How tone deaf, how does he expect the average battling Kiwi to feel about that.
Why wouldn't it be fairer if it was a level playing field & everyone payed the same rate?

Cant imagine John Key or Bill English being caught so flat footed.
Chris Luxon's going to drag National to defeat if they're not careful.

I take it the "revelations" you refer to are from the report that redefines income? Have a debate on taxation by all means, but it's poor form by Parker to kick it off with a thinly veiled deception.

I would much rather a government that reined in its helicopter panic spending that has been hugely inflationary, and that has in fact has caused a considerable amount of the newly defined "income" through asset value increases. Get that under control before putting its hand out for more of NZer's money.

[Blue Skies]

I take it the "revelations" you refer to are from the report that redefines income? Have a debate on taxation by all means, but it's poor form by Parker to kick it off with a thinly veiled deception.

I would much rather a government that reined in its helicopter panic spending that has been hugely inflationary, and that has in fact has caused a considerable amount of the newly defined "income" through asset value increases. Get that under control before putting its hand out for more of NZer's money.



1) Yes the revelations from the IRD investigation which was badly needed as until now we didn't have any accurate research for any future govt to develop tax policy. Parker had nothing to do with it other than reporting its findings. There's no deception, it's a report, you can read it yourself if you want to.

2) The only govt spending which had any impact on the inflation rate was the Covid wage subsidy which all parties agreed with, and it only added about 2% to the inflation figure. The rest of the inflation figure was caused by factors outside govt control.
3) The Reserve Bank acts independently of the govt, & was responsible for the ultra low interest rates which contributed to asset increases, & you can see with the R'Bank increasing interest rates, asset values are declining.
4) Hipkins has said today there will be no wealth tax or CGT or cyclone tax so you don't need to worry. Instead there'll be a reprioritisation of existing budgets plus a small amount of borrowing.

[Baa_Baa]

Despite the explosive revelations an average worker pays tax at over twice the rate of the super wealthy, Christopher Luxon is adamant our tax system is "broadly fair'.
As leader of the opposition, it beggars belief he didn't have a better response prepared, esp as he's in the privileged super wealthy category.

How tone deaf, how does he expect the average battling Kiwi to feel about that.
Why wouldn't it be fairer if it was a level playing field & everyone payed the same rate?

Cant imagine John Key or Bill English being caught so flat footed.
Chris Luxon's going to drag National to defeat if they're not careful.

It's this simple, you'll never win this.
14562

The wealthy who can afford good tax advice will always find ways to avoid tax which is perfectly legal (not evade tax). And in aggregate, the high income earners pay a darn sight more tax dollars than any middle/low income earner. Tax success? Punish success with taxes? Another brilliant idea to drive away the best and brightest business people and high net earners and wealthy from NZ.

[Panda-NZ-]

The wealthy who can afford good tax advice will always find ways to avoid tax which is perfectly legal (not evade tax). And in aggregate, the high income earners pay a darn sight more tax dollars than any middle/low income earner. Tax success? Punish success with taxes? Another brilliant idea to drive away the best and brightest business people and high net earners and wealthy from NZ.

Other NZers will be able to stay though, if we had properly funded public services and lower tax on things that actually matter (work, essential items).

Tax reforms would bring us into line with international rates - there is nowhere to go to that's still part of the first world.

[Balance]

Others will be able to stay though, if we had properly funded services and lower tax on things that actually matter (work, essential items).

Reforms would bring us into line with international rates - there is nowhere to go to that's still part of the first world.

Usual garbage from panda-nz, the ignoramus Labour peasant who wanted Ryman to load up with more debt to do a share buyback when the company was close to default on its debts.

[Balance]

Despite the explosive revelations an average worker pays tax at over twice the rate of the super wealthy, Christopher Luxon is adamant our tax system is "broadly fair'.
As leader of the opposition, it beggars belief he didn't have a better response prepared, esp as he's in the privileged super wealthy category.

How tone deaf, how does he expect the average battling Kiwi to feel about that.
Why wouldn't it be fairer if it was a level playing field & everyone payed the same rate?

Cant imagine John Key or Bill English being caught so flat footed.
Chris Luxon's going to drag National to defeat if they're not careful.

Usual garbage from BS - same sort of garbage about record number of houses built under Labour in the last 5 years, and same garbage about National allocating zero $ to health infrastructure.

Go and lie to the peasants in Labour, BS.

Don’t try it here.

[Balance]

It's this simple, you'll never win this.
14562

The wealthy who can afford good tax advice will always find ways to avoid tax which is perfectly legal (not evade tax). And in aggregate, the high income earners pay a darn sight more tax dollars than any middle/low income earner. Tax success? Punish success with taxes? Another brilliant idea to drive away the best and brightest business people and high net earners and wealthy from NZ.

By Labour’s bull shxt definition of capital gains as income, IRD must then also add the capital gain on every property (home and/or rental) owned by the average NZ tax payer to their incomes, to calculate the effective tax rate. It certainly will not be the 20.2% contained in the IRD report then, will it?

There will be home owners in the 20% who pay no tax (per IRD report) because of WFF & various government welfare payments - which means that they pay absolutely no tax on all their incomes (per Labour’s definition of incomes).

By all means introduce a CGT but it is absolute BS for Labour to try & redefine income to create envy & more divisions on NZ.

One source of truth? Kiss my arse, David Parker & Chris Hipkins.

[Ferg]

Hipkins has said today there will be no wealth tax or CGT or cyclone tax so you don't need to worry.

You missed a really important qualification in your quote: Hipkins has said today there will be no wealth tax or CGT in this budget.

...as per usual...half truths from BS.

[Blue Skies]

Usual garbage from BS - same sort of garbage about record number of houses built under Labour in the last 5 years, and same garbage about National allocating zero $ to health infrastructure.

Go and lie to the peasants in Labour, BS.

DonÂ’t try it here.


Im afraid you're wrong on both counts but since your post 3378 was so confused & such a word salad I didn't bother to respond.

Adding up the consents your apparent "Labour insider" gave you, & you posted there were 398,331 building consents issued 2017-2022.
Using your figures, if only 70% were built that would be over 278,000 new homes, a massive record.
And that doesn't even take into account new builds in 2023.
The figure I used was only 195,000 new homes in the last 5.5 years plus when National left there was a deficit of around 70,000 homes & thats down to about 5,000 now.

Secondly, there was no funding made available for new Hospitals or Health infrastructure in the years 2015 2016 by National & none of the upgrades to existing health infrastructure of the sort Labour is doing now. Before Labour became govt, there was very little spent on Public health infrastructure while large numbers of people were let into the country.

I don't know why you get so defensive about these things, other than Chris Hipkins has had a very good week, while Christopher Luxon is struggling & giving people reasons not to vote National.
In fact Chris Hipkins is looking like a more relatable Bill English.

But there's little point in engaging with you or posters like cowardly Ferg (who sends abusive private messages ) as any criticism of Luxon or National seems to bring out the red mist & nasty abuse.

[Panda-NZ-]

National's recent housing announcement - allow landlords to kick out tenants with no valid reason.

To add to returning all the tax breaks for property regardless of the "outcomes" delivered.

Nothing about building a single house though.

[thegreatestben]

I built to rent two houses that finished last year, the first tenants we took on were a couple in their early 20's, pacific islanders, had a 3 year old child and had duty of care of a brother in his mid teens. They were living in a transitional housing apartment - 1 bedroom.

We went against all the advice and wanted to be "good landlords" and got them into our 3 bed, stand alone with garage home in a central lower hutt suburb.

They ended up being a bit of a nightmare, caused quite a bit of wear and tear in just a few months, had numerous parties, caused agro with the neighbours. We live down the back and our neighbours were knocking on our door at all hours because they were scared to approach the tenants themselves. We took the benefit of the doubt approach and had a few conversations with them about their impact on us and their neighbours. Seemed to fall on deaf ears as the problems continued.

We were ****ting ourselves because upon going through our options to try and end the lease earlier, we found we had pretty much no options and the ones we did really gave the tenant all of the power. Luckily they shot themselves in the foot and told us they were splitting up so we had a basis to end the lease by mutual agreement because of that.

That left me with a very bad taste in my mouth, I'm still not rushing to consider investing in housing again even with the policies from National today - which I support.

If I did build again I'd look at making the most profitable short term investment for my own benefit and give away trying to do the right thing(social/long term outcomes), I clearly can't rely on the govt or general public to treat me fairly as a landlord.

[dobby41]

Let them eat a tax cut for the wealthy.
14564

[RupertBear]

Im afraid you're wrong on both counts but since your post 3378 was so confused & such a word salad I didn't bother to respond.

Adding up the consents your apparent "Labour insider" gave you, & you posted there were 398,331 building consents issued 2017-2022.
Using your figures, if only 70% were built that would be over 278,000 new homes, a massive record.
And that doesn't even take into account new builds in 2023.
The figure I used was only 195,000 new homes in the last 5.5 years plus when National left there was a deficit of around 70,000 homes & thats down to about 5,000 now.

Secondly, there was no funding made available for new Hospitals or Health infrastructure in the years 2015 2016 by National & none of the upgrades to existing health infrastructure of the sort Labour is doing now. Before Labour became govt, there was very little spent on Public health infrastructure while large numbers of people were let into the country.

I don't know why you get so defensive about these things, other than Chris Hipkins has had a very good week, while Christopher Luxon is struggling & giving people reasons not to vote National.
In fact Chris Hipkins is looking like a more relatable Bill English.

But there's little point in engaging with you or posters like cowardly Ferg (who sends abusive private messages ) as any criticism of Luxon or National seems to bring out the red mist & nasty abuse.

….deleted….

[Ferg]

More lies from BS. There is no PM between myself and them. I have NEVER sent BS a private message. They think the very public feedback I gave where I said they could stick something where the Sun doesn't shine was a PM. Check it out, it is still there. That is not what I would call cowardly at all given it is very public. I would rather give the rep than dignify their BS replies on this forum but you seem determined to litigate this matter RB. BS is either too stupid to know the difference between feedback and PMs, or they are lying again for which they have plenty of form. They lied about zero spend on maintenance (I know this to be untrue). They lied by omission about Hipkin's quote. They lied saying that bad joke was said by that candidate when they didn't actually say it. When I queried (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11916-Labour-govt-2020-23&p=999598&viewfull=1#post999598) BS on a source for one of their lies, they adopted an extraordinarily inflammatory position (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11916-Labour-govt-2020-23&p=999668&viewfull=1#post999668) claiming I platformed a nutter and aligned myself with them. That deserved the negative rep which BS said is a private message. Another lie. Poor form with their ad hominem to a simple request and trying to link me to such groups - if you are seeking the trigger RB, then look no further than that. BS has zero credibility and there is no need for posters such as yourself to referee one side of a disagreement. They are full of it. For that reason I asked the organiser of a private group to remove me given BS was also a member and I do not want them to benefit from the extra work I put into private posts. That is the only PM on the matter and that was not sent to BS. BS is full of lies and when I pulled them up on one of their lies, they attacked the person questioning them rather than answer the questions. They regularly post lies, misinformation and half truths.

[Panda-NZ-]

Getting back to farming:

Mycoplasma bovis eradicated from last remaining farm in New Zealand - Ministry

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/488855/mycoplasma-bovis-eradicated-from-last-remaining-farm-in-new-zealand-ministry

It's a good thing the current govt actually properly funds these things incl increasing biosecurity capability.

[nztx]

Getting back to farming:

Mycoplasma bovis eradicated from last remaining farm in New Zealand - Ministry

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/488855/mycoplasma-bovis-eradicated-from-last-remaining-farm-in-new-zealand-ministry

It's a good thing the current govt sees fit to properly funds these things incl increasing biosecurity capability.


Govt probably didn't do a thing .. MPI did .. ;)

Might pay to get checked Panda .. rumour has it that Govt front benches appear to have symptoms of
something far worse (probably not foot in mouth either) but it could be contagious - if you get too close :)

[Blue Skies]

More lies from BS. There is no PM between myself and them. I have NEVER sent BS a private message. They think the very public feedback I gave where I said they could stick something where the Sun doesn't shine was a PM. Check it out, it is still there. That is not what I would call cowardly at all given it is very public. I would rather give the rep than dignify their BS replies on this forum but you seem determined to litigate this matter RB. BS is either too stupid to know the difference between feedback and PMs, or they are lying again for which they have plenty of form. They lied about zero spend on maintenance (I know this to be untrue). They lied by omission about Hipkin's quote. They lied saying that bad joke was said by that candidate when they didn't actually say it. When I queried (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11916-Labour-govt-2020-23&p=999598&viewfull=1#post999598) BS on a source for one of their lies, they adopted an extraordinarily inflammatory position (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11916-Labour-govt-2020-23&p=999668&viewfull=1#post999668) claiming I platformed a nutter and aligned myself with them. That deserved the negative rep which BS said is a private message. Another lie. Poor form with their ad hominem to a simple request and trying to link me to such groups - if you are seeking the trigger RB, then look no further than that. BS has zero credibility and there is no need for posters such as yourself to referee one side of a disagreement. They are full of it. For that reason I asked the organiser of a private group to remove me given BS was also a member and I do not want them to benefit from the extra work I put into private posts. That is the only PM on the matter and that was not sent to BS. BS is full of lies and when I pulled them up on one of their lies, they attacked the person questioning them rather than answer the questions. They regularly post lies, misinformation and half truths.



Sincere apologies Ferg for suggesting you platformed Dutch Politician Thierry Baudet, if I got that wrong, it was Blackcap who also said he was a paid up member of Forum door Democratie.

However, you did platform Conspiracy promoter Chantelle Baker (post 62) with a link to her YouTube video on the Jucinda's Legacy thread, saying "Chantelle Baker nailed Jucinda's legacy which is division & spin"

But Ive never been a fan of negative reps esp with an abusive message attached. Call it whatever you like but these are private messages from one poster to another. Rather i like to see things debated/rebuffed in the public space where everyone can see them.


There was no money spent on Public Hospitals or major Health infrastructure in 2015, 2016, & remember then Minister of Health Jonathan Coleman was having a terrible time defending the appalling state of hospitals like Middlemore & others with water running down interior walls when it rained, leaking sewage & mould and fungi.
Labour have built a new hospital in Whangarei, there's another being started in Dunedin & significant upgrades/ maintenance of existing Public Health infrastructure progressing around the country.

Yes, Hipkins did say no CGT this budget, but was it really necessary to add thats not set in concrete, it may happen at some future date? No Public Policy is set in stone esp in this rapidly changing environment.

It's splitting hairs if Stephen Jack was the author or simply reposting someone else's disgusting joke. Neither are excusable & the reference to him being a white 50 year old man was referencing the problem National is having achieving the diversity in candidate selection which Chris Luxon has said he is fixing along with a more robust selection process.

And the fact there have been record numbers of houses built in the last 5.5 years was reiterated on Newstalk ZB on Friday morning just before Kerri Woodham's interview with Chris Luxon.

Im not denying we are dealing with huge challenges, problems in many areas, but my position is things would be so much worse with the current lot of National MP's.

[Panda-NZ-]

There was no money spent on Public Hospitals or major Health infrastructure in 2015, 2016, & remember then Minister of Health Jonathan Coleman was having a terrible time defending the appalling state of hospitals like Middlemore & others with water running down interior walls when it rained, leaking sewage & mould and fungi.

They basically gave up governing in 2013..

From then on it was auto-pilot with no real ambition or solutions offered for anything.

[Balance]

They basically gave up governing in 2013..

From then on it was auto-pilot with no real ambition or solutions offered for anything.

Tell us how Ryman should take on more debt to buyback its shares as you wanted, panda-nz ignoramus Labour peasant.

That’s how bankrupt of economic sense or common sense you Labour losers are.

[Ferg]

Thanks for your reply BS. I understand your attempt at restoring your credibility, but I don't understand the doubling down on your 3 positions given they have been shown to be, shall we say, 'mistruths'.

Calling a public reputation a "private message" is very Orwellian. "Private message" has a very specific meaning in the context of this forum, and there is no 'definitional retreat' here for you. You got that very wrong. It is not a case of "call it whatever you like" - when in fact that is exactly what you did; you called a public reputation something private which it is not. Saying "call it whatever you like" is a lazy debating technique of accusing your opponent of doing the very thing you are doing.
[Edit: for clarification BS said "in their mind a reputation comment is a private message" or words to that effect, which they have now removed by subsequently editing their post. BS was caught in a lie and has since removed it. Mods can likely confirm.]

"Abusive" reputation? Not at all. I merely recommended the relevant content be put back from where it emerged.

You say you would rather debate things in public and yet your response to my original question says otherwise. You used a very common political tactic of picking a group you think others don't like, and attempted to link me to that group. That is not honest debating. It is malicious. Hence the reason I did not dignify your original post with a reply. I'm up for a debate but not with dishonest malicious debaters.

I am still waiting for a source where there was zero funds spent on hospital maintenance. I know this to be untrue. It is up to you to provide the link and the source for your claim there was zero maintenance spent on hospitals over 2 years. I'm not talking capex - you specifically mentioned "maintenance" in your first post on the matter.

Now you claim saying someone said something is "the same as" linking to a post. Another definitional retreat. That is nonsense and you know it. It is not a case of splitting hairs - once again it is not factual.

Hipkins had a very large qualification to his statement which you omitted, and you said "nothing to see here".....when clearly there is something to see if one looks beyond the current term and/or current budget. Why else would Labour spend $5m on a report that is NOT going to be used for future policy.....or is it just another case of typical wasteful spend by Labour? If you believe there is nothing to see here then I have a bridge to sell you.

Rather than build a 4 sided corral around your non-arguments based on mistruths which will only prolong this to and fro.....I believe you have been sloppy with your wording and when pulled up on it, you reacted badly for whatever reason. You have been shown to call things "whatever you like" and your explanation is very Orwellian in changing the definitions of words. I recommend when making claims in future, that a) you provide a source, b) be precise in your wording and c) stop with the half truths.

[Balance]

You are so full of BS swallowed from Clueless Cindy & Puppet Hipkins, Blue Skies.

Here's post #3378 and even a 15 year old knows that building consents are NOT homes built.

But keep posting your BS as nothing affirms the BS, spin, lies and misinformation of the Arden & Hipkins Labour government than your posts which are straight out of Labour's dirty playbook.



Im afraid you're wrong on both counts but since your post 3378 was so confused & such a word salad I didn't bother to respond.

Adding up the consents your apparent "Labour insider" gave you, & you posted there were 398,331 building consents issued 2017-2022.
Using your figures, if only 70% were built that would be over 278,000 new homes, a massive record.
And that doesn't even take into account new builds in 2023.
The figure I used was only 195,000 new homes in the last 5.5 years plus when National left there was a deficit of around 70,000 homes & thats down to about 5,000 now.





The Kiwibuild program was dropped, however a staggering 195,000 homes have been built under Labour in 5.5 years, i.e. 1 in 10 homes in NZ was built under this government.

For a comparison of key performance, only 157,000 homes were added in 9 years under National.

National left a housing deficit of 70,000 homes, that's down to about 5,000 now.

So looking at the hard data, which government has the better record on housing?

Absolute GARBAGE.

You are attempting yet again to use false and inaccurate statistics (from the Labour Party Spin Doctors as I have heard my insider there used the same stats) to hoodwink NZers.

There were no 195,000 homes built under Labour in the last 5.5 years - there were 208,391 dwellings CONSENTED between 2018 to 2022, and 189,940 consented between 2017 to 2021.

The 189,940 is the better number to use given the 6 to 18 months lag between consent and completion when consented dwellings actually get built.

Here's where the Labour government BS and Spin (so well used by Ardern & now, Hipkins) kick in to spread lies and misinformation to NZers out there :

CONSENTED numbers Do NOT = BUILT numbers because many consented dwellings do not end up getting built.

Try 70% built rate = 132,958 homes actually built under the Labour government.

(Eg. 27,875 built in 2021 vs 39,420 consented in 2020 ie. 71% or 57% of 2021 consented numbers)

You are so full of BS it's entirely appropriate Blue Skies = BS.

[FTG]

Sincere apologies Ferg for suggesting you platformed Dutch Politician Thierry Baudet, if I got that wrong, it was Blackcap who also said he was a paid up member of Forum door Democratie.

However, you did platform Conspiracy promoter Chantelle Baker (post 62) with a link to her YouTube video on the Jucinda's Legacy thread, saying "Chantelle Baker nailed Jucinda's legacy which is division & spin"

But Ive never been a fan of negative reps esp with an abusive message attached. Call it whatever you like but these are private messages from one poster to another. Rather i like to see things debated/rebuffed in the public space where everyone can see them.


There was no money spent on Public Hospitals or major Health infrastructure in 2015, 2016, & remember then Minister of Health Jonathan Coleman was having a terrible time defending the appalling state of hospitals like Middlemore & others with water running down interior walls when it rained, leaking sewage & mould and fungi.
Labour have built a new hospital in Whangarei, there's another being started in Dunedin & significant upgrades/ maintenance of existing Public Health infrastructure progressing around the country.

Yes, Hipkins did say no CGT this budget, but was it really necessary to add thats not set in concrete, it may happen at some future date? No Public Policy is set in stone esp in this rapidly changing environment.

It's splitting hairs if Stephen Jack was the author or simply reposting someone else's disgusting joke. Neither are excusable & the reference to him being a white 50 year old man was referencing the problem National is having achieving the diversity in candidate selection which Chris Luxon has said he is fixing along with a more robust selection process.

And the fact there have been record numbers of houses built in the last 5.5 years was reiterated on Newstalk ZB on Friday morning just before Kerri Woodham's interview with Chris Luxon.

Im not denying we are dealing with huge challenges, problems in many areas, but my position is things would be so much worse with the current lot of National MP's.

Dear oh dear Blue Skies. Yet again you are getting yourself into a spot of bother and instead of genuinely 'eating humble pie', tripling down on a weak (naive, disengenious, or worse?) position.

Your response starts off okay with a 'sincere' apology (but noted by all & sundry, only the first 5 words).

Sadly, you then quickly contort like a 'trapped Rattlesnake' and attempt to escape taking any unreserved responsibility, by indirectly assigning blame to another poster, for your misconceptions, and falsehoods.

Just like a consummate politician, you then double-down on your authoritative, "I know it all" position and pivot like a super slippery eel. Not confronting the points that you have been called-out on and instead going into a full 'political broadcast' mode!

You can't help yourself, huh? Who is the 'authorising party' for these relentless political broadcasts? :)

Perhaps you should start nibbling at the humble pie by being openly proud of your affiliations? A good start would be to be far more transparent here and truthfully disclose your position in the LP machine. That shouldn't be too hard for you? You have already previously demonstrated that you hold some currency in the premise of being transparent here on ST re what position(s) you hold.

"Disc long term holder OCA & SUM"

Yip, you wrote those words...On one of your (just) two posts out of the last 100 that were on share/investment related threads.

Yes, crazy huh. Here we are on the 'ShareTrader' forum, yet your post rate to politically related threads is prolific. Meanwhile your contribution to non-political threads is nearly non-existent.

Looking forward to seeing full & proud disclosure from you.

[Balance]

Horrendous shortage of rental properties in Christchurch.

Rents going up.

Anti-landlord and anti-rental of Labour Party & Hipkins coming home to roost.

https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/heartbreaking-tenants-in-tears-over-christchurchs-massive-rental-shortage-43479

[Blue Skies]

Ferg, for the second time in days you've given me a negative rep with an accompanying angry abusive message.
I don't mind the neg rep but it's not great to open your notifications on a Sunday evening & see this sort of thing.

So here it is folks, this is what Ferg sends me & we can let others judge for themselves if this is the standard we want to sink to on ST.

"Another turd of a post that can be shoved right back to where it emerged from. You can't make up new definitions for words: a public reputation is NOT a private message. Withdraw your false accusation and eat some humble pie."

Ferg's earlier one was,
"I platform no-one so stick your ad hominem where the sun don't shine".

[nztx]

Ah Geez .. someone seemed to didn't like the BS slapped on here ? ;)

[Ferg]

I'm glad you posted that BS [Edit: but you can't even get your quotes 100% correct. I have repeated the actual quotes below so there is no confusion or misunderstanding for others.] It confirms my suspicion that no matter the interaction you will portray yourself as the victim. And I stand by both of those reps given both of your posts were turds. Keep posting more ad hominem rubbish [Edit: and you claim to have standards?!?!? Laughable] and I will give you more of them. I dispute they were given in anger and I dispute they are abusive.....you invent your own definitions for words so we may have to agree to disagree on that. That is what feedback is for is it not? Ask BP.

You change the definition of words, you accuse me of abusive private messages (which you admit there are none), you have been proven to be a liar (many times over) and yet you persist with your half truths, spin, deflection and nonsense posts. You cannot provide a source for your claim that zero dollars was spent on hospital maintenance. You post turds of replies with ad hominems, deflections and irrelevancies which quite rightly should be pushed back into wherever they came from - does the Sun shine on your wine cellar or basement? I don't know but your posts that involve flinging copious excrement in the hope some of it sticks do not deserve the light of day. Where you shove them is up to you.

You seem fascinated with this woman Chantalle Baker - does she have the answers you cannot provide? There is no sensible debate with you because you have been shown to have zero credibility and you invent new definitions for words. Angry? No. Abusive? No, I am being direct and forthright given you have trouble with word definitions. But your false accusations of abusive private messages is not going to be ignored, as are your lame attempts to link me to various fringe elements.


I platform no-one so stick your ad hominem where the Sun doesn't shine.


Another turd of a post that can get shoved back to where it emerged from. You can't make up new definitions for words: a public reputation is NOT a private message. Withdraw your false accusation and eat some humble pie.

[Ferg]

Here is a quick lesson in argument fallacies; in particular 'guilt by association' and 'poisoning the well', which is a sub-type of ad hominem.

Someone asks someone to prove a statement by asking (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11916-Labour-govt-2020-23&p=999598&viewfull=1#post999598):

Which two years is that? Have you got a (credible) source for that? That does not mesh with what I am seeing in the health sector.
And this is the reply (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11916-Labour-govt-2020-23&p=999668&viewfull=1#post999668):

The source is Vote Health, Ministry of Health & you're welcome to look up the figures, but since I notice you've been platforming Conspiracy influencer, Chantelle Baker, (who recently platformed Dutch politician Thierry Baudet a conspiracy theorist who promotes Climate denial, anti-Nato, pro Russia, anti- Semitism & racism) , and you & Balance seem to have hitched your wagons to her (in my view) fringe craziness, you're not going to believe anything from one of our govt' dept's.
Let's break down this 'turd' of a response......

Guilt by association is an attempt to paint your opponent in the worst light possible to discredit what they say by linking them to someone or some group that the person believes others will despise (e.g. Nazis). From Wikipedia:

An association fallacy is an informal inductive fallacy of the hasty-generalization or red-herring type and which asserts, by irrelevant association and often by appeal to emotion, that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another.

And Poisoning the well is described thus:

Poisoning the well is a type of informal fallacy where adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem.

What the respondent says is: "but since I notice you've been platforming Conspiracy influencer, Chantelle Baker" which is attempting guilt by association. If that is not enough the respondent adds another guilt by association "who recently platformed Dutch politician Thierry Baudet". In case that was not enough the respondent added the double AND trifecta of poisoning the well with "Climate denial, anti-Nato, pro Russia, anti- Semitism & racism" to catch as many people as possible who will find some obscure Dutch politician objectionable.

And for those that still don't get it, they add "and you & Balance seem to have hitched your wagons to her fringe craziness" to make it absolutely clear the asker of the question is connected to not just craziness but also **Balance**, as if that is some sort of trump card.

So we go from poster -> Chantalle Baker -> some Dutch politiican (with multiple objections) and also poster -> Balance, where each '->' represents a supposed linkage that ends up with racism, anti-semitism and other isms. The respondent wants the reader to think the asker of the question is a **bad person**.

Here we have a double/triple guilt by association with multiple poisonings of the well. This is not an honest debating technique. This is not high standards as some posters claim to be. This is very typical of nasty political hit jobs. Notice also the respondent introduced irrelevant points (which is touching on a red herring fallacy) because AFAIK Chantalle Baker doesn't have the answer to the question asked about a source for the original claim. And when the turd of a reply gets an appropriate negative rep (that is available to view publicly), they make the false accusation they were sent an "abusive private message".

This sort of rubbish needs to be called out for what it is and the poster concerned should be ashamed of their disgusting behaviour, but instead they would rather double/triple down.

So folks, don't use these fallacies when making arguments.

[Baa_Baa]

BS might not know that their reputation posts are accessible to all members. IMO reputation is everything, it’s not about being a guru or senior member because of the number of your posts, it’s about what other members think of you. Ferg has a point IMO, that BS contributes nothing to investment discussion, yet has much to say defending labour and attacking everything that questions them. People can make their own minds up but I think BS is BS which is why they’ve been on my ignore list for a long time, except for when some one quotes them.

[Ferg]

BS might not know that their reputation posts are accessible to all members. IMO reputation is everything, it’s not about being a guru or senior member because of the number of your posts, it’s about what other members think of you. Ferg has a point IMO, that BS contributes nothing to investment discussion, yet has much to say defending labour and attacking everything that questions them. People can make their own minds up but I think BS is BS which is why they’ve been on my ignore list for a long time, except for when some one quotes them.

Thanks Baa_Baa - although it was FTG who pointed out their post frequency. The bolded part I find extraordinarily nasty.

[Baa_Baa]

Duplicate post

[davflaws]

Ferg has a point IMO, that BS contributes nothing to investment discussion, yet has much to say defending labour and attacking everything that questions them.

So your post (and some of Ferg's) seems to imply that a track record of posting investment analysis is a prerequisite for posting on other forums (Off Market Discussions and Elections in particular). I don't think it is.

Both Ferg and Balance have excellent analytical skills and much investment wisdom. I value their insights and opinions on investment.

But they also have strong right wing political opinions and thin skins. I don't find their posts on political topics either informative or useful.

[SBQ]

Horrendous shortage of rental properties in Christchurch.

Rents going up.

Anti-landlord and anti-rental of Labour Party & Hipkins coming home to roost.

https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/heartbreaking-tenants-in-tears-over-christchurchs-massive-rental-shortage-43479

Don't forget, during Jacinda's rein they put in the Healthy Homes Standard. Homes that were perfectly fine to live in by our parents that all of a sudden, they are not good enough because of the 'occupancy behaviour' problem. You have tenants that don't want to use a heater or open the windows to rid moisture.

[Blue Skies]

Don't forget, during Jacinda's rein they put in the Healthy Homes Standard. Homes that were perfectly fine to live in by our parents that all of a sudden, they are not good enough because of the 'occupancy behaviour' problem. You have tenants that don't want to use a heater or open the windows to rid moisture.


One of the major reasons behind this was because we had absolutely disgraceful 3rd world rates of Rheumatic fever, which mainly affects children & can result in permanent heart damage. We had much higher rates than comparable countries & it's preventable. Usually as a result of living in over crowded damp conditions.
Not only tragic for the kids & their families, but also a huge burden on the Public Health system.
It affected mainly Māori & Pacifica families so something you might not necessarily be aware of.

[davflaws]

It affected mainly Māori & Pacifica families so something you might not necessarily be aware of.

On the basis of some of their posts, a distressing number of contributors to these forums probably don't care.

[Panda-NZ-]

One of the major reasons behind this was because we had absolutely disgraceful 3rd world rates of Rheumatic fever, which mainly affects children & can result in permanent heart damage. We had much higher rates than comparable countries & it's preventable. Usually as a result of living in over crowded damp conditions.
Not only tragic for the kids & their families, but also a huge burden on the Public Health system.
It affected mainly Māori & Pacifica families so something you might not necessarily be aware of.

If the rental market was so good before, why were there all these issues. They can't provide first world accomodation even with all their tax breaks.

There were of course no shortages when National was in too /s.

[Balance]

One of the major reasons behind this was because we had absolutely disgraceful 3rd world rates of Rheumatic fever, which mainly affects children & can result in permanent heart damage. We had much higher rates than comparable countries & it's preventable. Usually as a result of living in over crowded damp conditions.
Not only tragic for the kids & their families, but also a huge burden on the Public Health system.
It affected mainly Māori & Pacifica families so something you might not necessarily be aware of.

Their choice to have big families - not society.

[justakiwi]

Don't assume it is couples choosing to have large numbers of children. More often than not it is extended families living under one roof.


Their choice to have big families - not society.

[Balance]

Don't assume it is couples choosing to have large numbers of children. More often than not it is extended families living under one roof.

It is a fact that they have big families which make it even worse when they choose to then live under the same roof.

When are they going to take responsibility for the well being of their families?

[justakiwi]

Feel free to back that claim up with actual statistics.


It is a fact that they have big families which make it even worse when they choose to then live under the same roof.

When are they going to take responsibility for the well being of their families?

[Balance]

Feel free to back that claim up with actual statistics.

read and learn, JAK.

https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/new-data-shows-1-in-9-children-under-the-age-of-five-lives-in-a-multi-family-household/

[justakiwi]

Where does it state that Maori and Pacifica couples "have big families?" as in, large numbers of children? I see zero reference to the numbers of children couples within a household have. It states:

Multi-family households tended to be larger, with two-family households having an average of 5.6 people, and three-or-more-family households averaging 9.0 people. In comparison, one-family households had an average of 3.1 people living in them.

Those averages, indicate very normal numbers of children per family - definitely not the large numbers you are implying, accusing them of.

The article does however, support my comment that Maori and Pacifica households frequently include extended family/friends.

Read and learn Balance.


read and learn, JAK.

https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/new-data-shows-1-in-9-children-under-the-age-of-five-lives-in-a-multi-family-household/

[Ferg]

I found this staggering:

three-or-more-family households averaging 9.0 people

Do we know if they were permanent members of the household or merely visiting on census night? I haven't checked but 3 or more families under one roof sounds like a lot of people and work. Or are there other factors contributing to the size of the 'household', for instance is a gang pad considered a household?

[justakiwi]

This does not mean 9 people per family living in the same house. It is an average of 9 people per 3 family household.

I would hazard a guess that there are three main reasons for families sharing a house like this. Firstly, to reduce costs. Secondly, to support each other, share responsibility for child care. And thirdly, because for many cultures it is normal practice to care for grandparents and other extended family.

As for "gang pads" - even gangs have families. So yes, a "gang pad" consisting of multiple families would be considered a "household" because they are.



I found this staggering:


Do we know if they were permanent members of the household or merely visiting on census night? I haven't checked but 3 or more families under one roof sounds like a lot of people and work. Or are there other factors contributing to the size of the 'household', for instance is a gang pad considered a household?