National - FFS!

[Balance]

You're gonna look like such a dick if National also fails to deliver on their promises. They have before, so why would anyone expect differently this time round?

Oh yeah, they've promised to ban cell phones in schools. I'm sure we can expect a significant improvement in student achievement once they've done that. Yeah right.

No government in NZ has ever failed to deliver on the scale that Ardern & Hipkins have - period.

What’s the point you are trying to make, JAK? Try refuting my point that popularity does not equal a good leader.

Hitler was very popular in Germany when he was leader - did that make him a great leader?

Ardern’s case is more clear cut - 2 years after being elected for a second term, she booted herself out because she knew more and more NZers saw through her BS, spin and lies.

As for banning mobile phones in schools, anything which will arrest the alarming decline in education standards and achievements in NZ is a good thing. Maybe you much prefer Ardern’s directive to all educational providers in NZ to learn and use te reo? What has that gone for maths, science and reading?

[Panda-NZ-]

Ardern’s case is more clear cut - 2 years after being elected for a second term, she booted herself out because she knew more and more NZers saw through her BS, spin and lies.

Luxon's idea of getting outcomes is banning technology we all use every day.

Why not just ban the 21st century.... adapt schools to it rather than go back in time.

[Balance]

Luxon's idea of getting outcomes is banning technology we all use every day.

Why not just ban the 21st century. Adapt schools to it rather than go back in time.

Panda-nz who wanted Ryman to go broke by loading up with more debt. You are a class A dick.

[777]

Luxon's idea of getting outcomes is banning technology we all use every day.

Why not just ban the 21st century.... adapt schools to it rather than go back in time.

What an idiotic post.

[justakiwi]

Just to be clear, I don't believe students should have their phones on them while in class, but it is not the role of government to ban them. Nor is it necessary. Schools are already managing this for their students, with a variety of rules, such as handing phones in at the start of class etc. National literally has much bigger things to be worried about right now, so for them to be announcing something petty like this right now, is ridiculous. If they want to be taken seriously, this is not the way to achieve it.





Oh yeah, they've promised to ban cell phones in schools. I'm sure we can expect a significant improvement in student achievement once they've done that. Yeah right.

[Blue Skies]

I like Chris Hipkins comment, "schools don't need Christopher Luxon's permission to ban phones " .

Interestingly a mother rang ZB this morning saying her son was at King's College where all the students sat around at lunchtime staring into their cell phones, whereas at Auckland Grammar cell phones are banned during school time so they are out playing on the fields or interacting with other students during the breaks.
She was dismayed & tempted to switch her sons school, because of this.
(Mind you some overzealous King's parents would probably lawyer up & sue the school if their child wasn't allowed to use their cell phone at school. )

If it's important to you & you don't want your child distracted by social media & vulnerable to online bullying, & your son/daughter's school hasn't already banned them, put some pressure on the principal.
We don't need the govt doing this, its the schools job.
Plenty of schools have already banned them during school hours.

[dobby41]

Panda-nz who wanted Ryman to go broke by loading up with more debt. You are a class A dick.

From a person who felt the Flu was far worse than Covid

Precisely because of the media beat up - not because the spread is anyway near as bad as the annual spread of the common seasonal flu.

There's so much fake news going around and vested interests beating the story up for their own purposes.

But then

Does not matter what I think.

[blackcap]

Luxon's idea of getting outcomes is banning technology we all use every day.

Why not just ban the 21st century.... adapt schools to it rather than go back in time.

What an idiotic post. You gotta be ****tin me.

[Balance]

Completely clueless and totally useless cindy is my one source of truth

:d

:d

:d

[Panda-NZ-]

What an idiotic post. You gotta be ****tin me.

Well he is of the evangelical persuasion. Their solution is to ban things & turn back the clock.

[Balance]

Well he is of the evangelical persuasion. Their solution is to ban things & turn back the clock.

The class A dickhead panda-NZ representing Labour with its broke and woke BS.

Same dickhead who wanted Ryman to go bankrupt by loading up on more debt.

[Balance]

I like Chris Hipkins comment, "schools don't need Christopher Luxon's permission to ban phones " .


Same Hipkins who cannot answer ‘What is a woman?’

https://youtu.be/kqpbLbfoWJY

Appalling woke behaviour by Hipkins.

Then there’s this ….

Same Hipkins who eagerly welcomed Kiri Allan back to work to shut down the controversy around allegations of her bullying.

Well, she ended up driving inebriated and had to be tracked down by police dogs after trying to run away from the scene of the crash.

And who not only resisted arrest but threatened to take the jobs of the police officers who brought her in.

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/4/z/4/g/e/s/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1420x800 .4z5xih.png/1689315121198.jpg?format=pjpg&optimize=medium

Appalling judgement call by Hipkins.

Same Hipkins who accepted Kiri’s assertion that she never shouted or bullied anyone? To have that now confirmed by a newbie junior MP!

[Balance]

Just to be clear, I don't believe students should have their phones on them while in class, but it is not the role of government to ban them. Nor is it necessary. Schools are already managing this for their students, with a variety of rules, such as handing phones in at the start of class etc. National literally has much bigger things to be worried about right now, so for them to be announcing something petty like this right now, is ridiculous. If they want to be taken seriously, this is not the way to achieve it.

Some countries which have banned and/or are banning mobiles in schools :

France
Australia
Netherlands
China
UK
Malaysia
Singapore

Bravo on National for taking the initiative to follow the recommendation of UNESCO and the examples of other countries to ban mobiles.

Meanwhile, Hipkins is very very happy to support the Education Department's proposed curriculum to dumb down the teaching of science by removing all references of physics, biology and chemistry.

In the land of the blind, the one eye man is king.

In the Aoteroa of the future, the half wit will be a Labour PM because the rest of the population are illiterate peasants - that's how Hipkins and Labour want NZ to become.

[justakiwi]

The point I was making is, there is zero need for the government to mandate this. Schools at all levels are already managing this. Does National really believe this is going to win them votes? It is a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things right now. You of all people should realise that, given the long list of more important things they need to address if they become government. Why on earth have they made this a priority when they should be announcing policy on things such as the Aged Care crisis for example? Oh, I know ... its because they ​have no policy.





Bravo on National for taking the initiative to follow the recommendation of UNESCO and the examples of other countries to ban mobiles.

.

[Balance]

The point I was making is, there is zero need for the government to mandate this. Schools at all levels are already managing this. Does National really believe this is going to win them votes? It is a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things right now. You of all people should realise that, given the long list of more important things they need to address if they become government. Why on earth have they made this a priority when they should be announcing policy on things such as the Aged Care crisis for example? Oh, I know ... its because they ​have no policy.

May be small burger to you (& Hipkins who does not know what a woman is) but as per the UNESCO report, it is a big deal to lift the academic achievements of all students. And it is easy to do as other countries like Australia has done.

Leave it to the schools and we will see the disparity emerge in the future between the schools which ban mobiles vs those which don’t. And of course, society will then be blamed as usual by the woke schools and woke leftist politicians.

How about Labour supporting the revised school curriculum of dumbing down science? Think that will help the brown population to lift their academic achievements?

[Blue Skies]

Hipkins answer to "define a women" question thrown at him by shock jock Sean Plunkett, seemed perfectly thoughtful & intelligent, - "in terms of gender identity, I think people define their gender identity for themselves."
Who could argue with that?

And also Hipkins said "Ultimately I'm very aware this is an emotionally charged issue for some people, and as leader, I don't want to contribute to that."
Sounds incredibly thoughtful, honest, sensible & sensitive to me.

Biological sex & gender identity are not always the same thing, ones determined by chromosomes, the other by social construct.

Obviously Transgender & non-binary issues are a very emotionally charged issue for posters like Balance & many others who have taken offence at Hipkins answer, but as most people understand, its just about impossible to have an opinion on these incredibly complicated issues without causing offence to someone or groups or even groups within groups.

Does anyone know how Christopher Luxon answered this question? Or has he even been asked it?

[ValueNZ]

The point I was making is, there is zero need for the government to mandate this. Schools at all levels are already managing this. Does National really believe this is going to win them votes? It is a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things right now. You of all people should realise that, given the long list of more important things they need to address if they become government. Why on earth have they made this a priority when they should be announcing policy on things such as the Aged Care crisis for example? Oh, I know ... its because they ​have no policy.
This might be incorrect but from my knowledge it's only the private schools that choose to have no phone policies. There may be no need for government to mandate the phone ban if there were free choice between schools aka no zoning rules, but for most people they are stuck in the schools that their zoned for.

Ideally the best schools with the best policies would benefit receive monetary benefits but it doesn't really seem to be the case. One modern school (modern teaching, no real restrictions on students) was built near me which cost an absurd amount of money and it has for the most part failed horribly. I think that school would benefit with a no phone policy.

[Balance]

Australian states have been implementing the no mobile in school policy since 2020.

Nothing but positive feedback.

One must wonder why school principals in some schools are so opposed to it. Likewise, the woke leftists who prefer instead to dumb down the school curriculum so that there’s no mention of physics, biology or chemistry. Interesting, isn’t it?

[jonu]

Hipkins answer to "define a women" question thrown at him by shock jock Sean Plunkett, seemed perfectly thoughtful & intelligent, - "in terms of gender identity, I think people define their gender identity for themselves."
Who could argue with that?

And also Hipkins said "Ultimately I'm very aware this is an emotionally charged issue for some people, and as leader, I don't want to contribute to that."
Sounds incredibly thoughtful, honest, sensible & sensitive to me.

Biological sex & gender identity are not always the same thing, ones determined by chromosomes, the other by social construct.

Obviously Transgender & non-binary issues are a very emotionally charged issue for posters like Balance & many others who have taken offence at Hipkins answer, but as most people understand, its just about impossible to have an opinion on these incredibly complicated issues without causing offence to someone or groups or even groups within groups.

Does anyone know how Christopher Luxon answered this question? Or has he even been asked it?

Thank you Blue Skies for annunciating so clearly why Labour is such a mess. A Woman is not a social construct. A Woman is an adult human female. Simples.

[Daytr]

Thank you Blue Skies for annunciating so clearly why Labour is such a mess. A Woman is not a social construct. A Woman is an adult human female. Simples.

Why are you, a male, so fixated on this!
And actually what is a woman or a man is a social construct, it's the biology that is 'messy' and many people are born with biological sexual ambiguity.
How about you & Sean Plunkett be 'real men' and stop telling women what they are & aren't.
Attitudes like yours make me sick.

[Balance]

Why are you, a male, so fixated on this!
And actually what is a woman or a man is a social construct, it's the biology that is 'messy' and many people are born with biological sexual ambiguity.
How about you & Sean Plunkett be 'real men' and stop telling women what they are & aren't.
Attitudes like yours make me sick.

You are one sick individual.

You need help and quickly.

[Bill Smith]

Why are you, a male, so fixated on this!
And actually what is a woman or a man is a social construct, it's the biology that is 'messy' and many people are born with biological sexual ambiguity.
How about you & Sean Plunkett be 'real men' and stop telling women what they are & aren't.
Attitudes like yours make me sick.

Hard to believe that attitudes of others make you so obviously sick! Do you think there may be other causes of your sickness?

[Balance]

Hard to believe that attitudes of others make you so obviously sick! Do you think there may be other causes of your sickness?

Too much Labour & Ardern indoctrination into her tiny little brain?

[Daytr]

Hard to believe that attitudes of others make you so obviously sick! Do you think there may be other causes of your sickness?

Obviously sick to care about people, all people? Funny enough it's mostly men that are raising such a big fuss about this simplistic but nasty campaign.

Neanderthal attitudes on this site are abundant.
What is sick about not marginalizing the already marginalized?
If you cannot accept that there are people within society that are born with gender ambiguity then like again many on here who don't believe in Climate Change, Covid was a hoax etc, are not living in the real world.
It is not sick to care about all people and make sure they are protected by religious zealots.

Those same zealots that again & again end up being found out for deplorable behavior and they are hiding their real ugly selves on a religious soap box.

[justakiwi]

You got that right. Consider this a rep vote as I'm unable to give you another one for the usual reason.


Obviously sick to care about people, all people? Funny enough it's mostly men that are raising such a big fuss about this simplistic but nasty campaign.

Neanderthal attitudes on this site are abundant.
What is sick about not marginalizing the already marginalized?
If you cannot accept that there are people within society that are born with gender ambiguity then like again many on here who don't believe in Climate Change, Covid was a hoax etc, are not living in the real world.
It is not sick to care about all people and make sure they are protected by religious zealots.

Those same zealots that again & again end up being found out for deplorable behavior and they are hiding their real ugly selves on a religious soap box.

[Daytr]

You got that right. Consider this a rep vote as I'm unable to give you another one for the usual reason.

Thanks Justakiwi. It's good to not be alone on this site on these matters.
There are a few speak out, but I think there are others who also open minded but are wary of the diatribe that will follow. Like calling people sick for caring.
I've had a guts full of these Climate Change denying, anti science Neanderthals & misogyny dressed up in a religious robe that has swept a tidal wave of molestation under the rug for decades.

[GTM 3442]

Interesting polling from Essential via NewsHub. . .

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/new-poll-shows-huge-vote-of-no-confidence-in-chris-hipkins-and-christopher-luxon-political-scientist-bryce-edwards-says.html


Party: https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/
Labour 29.0%
National 34.5%
Green 8.5%
ACT 11.6%
NZ First 5.3%



Preferred Prime Minister: https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/opinions-of-leaders/
Hipkins 43% positive 30% neutral 22% negative
Luxon 32% positive 26% neutral 35%negative

[Balance]

Interesting polling from Essential via NewsHub. . .

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/new-poll-shows-huge-vote-of-no-confidence-in-chris-hipkins-and-christopher-luxon-political-scientist-bryce-edwards-says.html


Party: https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/
Labour 29.0%
National 34.5%
Green 8.5%
ACT 11.6%
NZ First 5.3%



Preferred Prime Minister: https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/opinions-of-leaders/
Hipkins 43% positive 30% neutral 22% negative
Luxon 32% positive 26% neutral 35%negative

National/ACT - 46.1%

National/ACT/NZF - 51%

Labour/Greens/Maori Party - 40%

Roll on October 2023.

[Balance]

Why are you, a male, so fixated on this!
And actually what is a woman or a man is a social construct, it's the biology that is 'messy' and many people are born with biological sexual ambiguity.
How about you & Sean Plunkett be 'real men' and stop telling women what they are & aren't.
Attitudes like yours make me sick.

This is the path NZ is going towards, thanks to the official government & MSM sanction of use of violence against anyone who dares to speak out for the silent majority :

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/28/the-demonstration-effect/

WHAT HAPPENED IN AUCKLAND on Saturday, 25 March 2023, revealed the power of officially-sanctioned protest. That power was demonstrated to even greater effect the following day in Wellington. New Zealanders are blessedly unfamiliar with this type of politics, which is more commonly associated with authoritarian regimes such as Viktor Orban’s Hungary, or Nicolás Maduro’s Venezuela. Nevertheless, the mass demonstrations against Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (a.k.a “Posie Parker”) strongly backed by government ministers and the state-owned media, revealed just how potent a weapon the mass mobilisation of sympathetic citizens by official, or quasi-official, forces backed up by the news media, can be.

Since Keen-Minshull has announced her intention to visit New Zealand again in September of this year (perilously close to the election date!) it will be interesting to see whether the same politicians and media outlets who denounced her attitudes towards the trans community back in March – “inflammatory, vile and incorrect” – are prepared to offer the electorate a repeat performance six months later. Were they to do so, there can be little doubt that the result would be the same. New Zealanders sympathetic to the trans-gender cause would rally against Keen-Minshull in their thousands.

The response of those who share Keen-Minshull’s views about the impact trans-gender ideology is having on the rights of women and children will, however, be very different the second time around. Should Keen-Minshull return to these shores in September, she is certain to arouse a powerfully demonstrative response from those who support her cause. The March spectacle of 2,000 trans-gender activists and their supporters drowning-out and then physically attacking Keen-Minshull and her fewer than 100 supporters is unlikely to be repeated.

And we had the most repugnant and despicable act at that time of a young able transgender demonstrator attacking an elderly lady.

He punched the elderly woman in the HEAD.

Vile and totally disgusting - but NOT A WHISPER from the woke brigade.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/posie-parker-protest-young-man-accused-of-punching-elderly-woman-granted-diversion/UK6SUZYJVJDMJJMJRP5ZCJNODQ/

A young Gisborne man accused of punching an elderly woman in the head during the heated Posie Parker counter-protest in Auckland late last month appeared in court for the first time today, waving briefly to the magistrate before nervously folding his hands in front of him.

[Daytr]

This is the path NZ is going towards, thanks to the official government & MSM sanction of use of violence against anyone who dares to speak out for the silent majority :

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/28/the-demonstration-effect/

WHAT HAPPENED IN AUCKLAND on Saturday, 25 March 2023, revealed the power of officially-sanctioned protest. That power was demonstrated to even greater effect the following day in Wellington. New Zealanders are blessedly unfamiliar with this type of politics, which is more commonly associated with authoritarian regimes such as Viktor Orban’s Hungary, or Nicolás Maduro’s Venezuela. Nevertheless, the mass demonstrations against Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (a.k.a “Posie Parker”) strongly backed by government ministers and the state-owned media, revealed just how potent a weapon the mass mobilisation of sympathetic citizens by official, or quasi-official, forces backed up by the news media, can be.

Since Keen-Minshull has announced her intention to visit New Zealand again in September of this year (perilously close to the election date!) it will be interesting to see whether the same politicians and media outlets who denounced her attitudes towards the trans community back in March – “inflammatory, vile and incorrect” – are prepared to offer the electorate a repeat performance six months later. Were they to do so, there can be little doubt that the result would be the same. New Zealanders sympathetic to the trans-gender cause would rally against Keen-Minshull in their thousands.

The response of those who share Keen-Minshull’s views about the impact trans-gender ideology is having on the rights of women and children will, however, be very different the second time around. Should Keen-Minshull return to these shores in September, she is certain to arouse a powerfully demonstrative response from those who support her cause. The March spectacle of 2,000 trans-gender activists and their supporters drowning-out and then physically attacking Keen-Minshull and her fewer than 100 supporters is unlikely to be repeated.

And we had the most repugnant and despicable act at that time of a young able transgender demonstrator attacking an elderly lady.

He punched the elderly woman in the HEAD.

Vile and totally disgusting - but NOT A WHISPER from the woke brigade.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/posie-parker-protest-young-man-accused-of-punching-elderly-woman-granted-diversion/UK6SUZYJVJDMJJMJRP5ZCJNODQ/

A young Gisborne man accused of punching an elderly woman in the head during the heated Posie Parker counter-protest in Auckland late last month appeared in court for the first time today, waving briefly to the magistrate before nervously folding his hands in front of him.

Where was the violence sanctioned and by who? You just made that up & not only that you contradicted yourself by reporting on the criminal charges they are facing.

Violence isn't condoned but I can sure understand how bigots like this make people angry.

[blackcap]

Why are you, a male, so fixated on this!
And actually what is a woman or a man is a social construct, it's the biology that is 'messy' and many people are born with biological sexual ambiguity..

Many people are not born with biological sexual ambiguity. They are very much in the minority. So much so that for thousands of years it has quite obviously been obvious as to what is a man and what is a woman. Until the last 10 years it seems. A woman is an adult human female and a male is an adult human male.

[Daytr]

Many people are not born with biological sexual ambiguity. They are very much in the minority. So much so that for thousands of years it has quite obviously been obvious as to what is a man and what is a woman. Until the last 10 years it seems. A woman is an adult human female and a male is an adult human male.

So what's your excuse for not accepting people as they are minority or not?

Interesting, another climate change denying conspiracy theorist wants to beat up on the marginalized. Your argument, Jonu or Balance's isn't worth my spit.

[Daytr]

Interesting polling from Essential via NewsHub. . .

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/new-poll-shows-huge-vote-of-no-confidence-in-chris-hipkins-and-christopher-luxon-political-scientist-bryce-edwards-says.html


Party: https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/
Labour 29.0%
National 34.5%
Green 8.5%
ACT 11.6%
NZ First 5.3%



Preferred Prime Minister: https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/opinions-of-leaders/
Hipkins 43% positive 30% neutral 22% negative
Luxon 32% positive 26% neutral 35%negative

Who was saying that a 3rd coalition partner wouldn't be required? ACT is losing ground to NZF or really its Seymour vs Winnie.
Will Seymour have to eat his words about ruling out working with NZF?

[blackcap]

So what's your excuse for not accepting people as they are minority or not?

Interesting, another climate change denying conspiracy theorist wants to beat up on the marginalized. Your argument, Jonu or Balance's isn't worth my spit.

Fascinating how you come to some conclusions. I am not beating up on anyone at all. All I am saying that my opinion is that a woman is a female human adult and a man is a human male adult. If you want to use pronouns to support other opinions, that is fine. Just don't go prescribing them for me. I am not interested and don't care.

I will however treat you as I treat any other human being. With respect for who you are as a human and what you accomplish and how you treat others. But definitely not for what gender you may identify as, or what colour you are, or any other minority you belong to. That does not interest me one bit.

If you call that beating up of people, then I give up.

[blackcap]

Who was saying that a 3rd coalition partner wouldn't be required? ACT is losing ground to NZF or really its Seymour vs Winnie.
Will Seymour have to eat his words about ruling out working with NZF?

Seymour is an idiot. He is all over the place at the moment and he may have to eat his words or just sit on the cross benches.

[justakiwi]

Clearly our schools think differently:

https://www.thepress.co.nz/a/nz-news/350050985/there-are-bigger-issues-schools-cellphones-principals-say?utm_source=stuff_website&utm_medium=stuff_referral&utm_campaign=stuff_pointer&utm_id=stuff_pointer




Leave it to the schools and we will see the disparity emerge in the future between the schools which ban mobiles vs those which don’t. And of course, society will then be blamed as usual by the woke schools and woke leftist politicians.

[Daytr]

Fascinating how you come to some conclusions. I am not beating up on anyone at all. All I am saying that my opinion is that a woman is a female human adult and a man is a human male adult. If you want to use pronouns to support other opinions, that is fine. Just don't go prescribing them for me. I am not interested and don't care.

I will however treat you as I treat any other human being. With respect for who you are as a human and what you accomplish and how you treat others. But definitely not for what gender you may identify as, or what colour you are, or any other minority you belong to. That does not interest me one bit.

If you call that beating up of people, then I give up.

If it doesn't bother you, which is good to hear by the way, then why comment?
The campaign of, what is a woman, is not an innocent question, it's about marginalizing the already marginalized. Even if people that support it don't think this or don't understand this, it's what the campaign is doing. It is the effect.

Why would you support a campaign, even a national advertising campaign, when the already vulnerable are being targeted.
Suicide rates in marginalized minorities are much much higher than the general population. Why is that? Mostly due ignorance, lack of acceptance and empathy.

There is blood on these ignorant Neanderthal's hands and ignorance is not an excuse.

[blackcap]

If it doesn't bother you, which is good to hear by the way, then why comment?
The campaign of, what is a woman, is not an innocent question, it's about marginalizing the already marginalized. Even if people that support it don't think this or don't understand this, it's what the campaign is doing. It is the effect.

Why would you support a campaign, even a national advertising campaign, when the already vulnerable are being targeted.
Suicide rates in marginalized minorities are much much higher than the general population. Why is that? Mostly due ignorance, lack of acceptance and empathy.

There is blood on these ignorant Neanderthal's hands and ignorance is not an excuse.

That is what you have been led to believe. Suicide is high in these poor mentally disturbed people. Then the therapists go and affirm them and get them to do all sorts of gender re-assignment and/or take all sorts of drugs (some with very powerful side effects) which causes more issues. You will find that the suicide rate does not really diminish post this process.

Affirming a mental illness has never been a good idea (think anorexia) and there must be far better treatments out there for those with gender dysphoria than a cocktail of drugs and mutilation.

As for what is a woman or what is a man! It is all about protecting women and not about marginalizing a segment of society. How would you like it if your daughter had to share a locker room with a trans female, or any other woman's space where they need to feel safe. It's not about marginalising minorities, its about keeping the majority safe.

While we are at it, how does saying that a woman is an adult female human actually marginalise anyone?

[Daytr]

That is what you have been led to believe. Suicide is high in these poor mentally disturbed people. Then the therapists go and affirm them and get them to do all sorts of gender re-assignment and/or take all sorts of drugs (some with very powerful side effects) which causes more issues. You will find that the suicide rate does not really diminish post this process.

Affirming a mental illness has never been a good idea (think anorexia) and there must be far better treatments out there for those with gender dysphoria than a cocktail of drugs and mutilation.

As for what is a woman or what is a man! It is all about protecting women and not about marginalizing a segment of society. How would you like it if your daughter had to share a locker room with a trans female, or any other woman's space where they need to feel safe. It's not about marginalising minorities, its about keeping the majority safe.

While we are at it, how does saying that a woman is an adult female human actually marginalise anyone?

But you don't care right?
Treat everyone the same? And now you are suggesting it's mental illness and people don't feel safe.
Are you a Psychiatrist?
Or you just like making up ****e as you go along, much like your Climate Change rhetoric.

Are you religious? Honest question.

How many crimes as you describe are committed by transgender people?
Give me one example in NZ.

Turn it around though and how many crimes have been committed against trsnsgender & gay people etc over the years. Thousands.

They are the ones who haven't been safe.

As I said not worth my spit.

[Balance]

Clearly our schools think differently:

https://www.thepress.co.nz/a/nz-news/350050985/there-are-bigger-issues-schools-cellphones-principals-say?utm_source=stuff_website&utm_medium=stuff_referral&utm_campaign=stuff_pointer&utm_id=stuff_pointer

The very same woke principals who have done bugger all except preside over ever declining standards in education. More teo reo to solve the education crisis?

These principals can kiss my arse.

[ValueNZ]

But you don't care right?
Treat everyone the same? And now you are suggesting it's mental illness and people don't feel safe.

How many crimes as you describe are committed by transgender people?
Give me one example in NZ.

Turn it around though and how many crimes have been committed against trsnsgender & gay people etc over the years. Thousands.

They are the ones who haven't been safe.

As I said not worth my spit.
Gender dysphoria definitely is a mental illness. I do genuinely feel bad for those with gender dysphoria.

[ValueNZ]

The very same principals who have done bugger all except preside over ever declining standards in education.
I was going to comment that most principals here are a bunch of idiots but I thought I'd have some self restraint.

[justakiwi]

It wouldn’t worry me in the slightest. Women are far more likely to be attacked by a heterosexual cis male, outside of a public bathroom, than they are by a transgender woman, inside one!

Honestly, you (and others here) should take the time to talk to some transgender folk. The vast majority are simply trying to live their life without any drama, just as the rest of us are. The problem is, some of you, particularly men, associate “trans” with what you have seen in p0rn, or with the very small number of “extremist” trans people (for want of a better word). 99% of the the transgender population are nothing like that. Most of them you wouldn’t even notice if you bumped into them, let alone recognise them as being transgender.

As someone who has a transgender friend, it really saddens me that people seem incapable of even trying​ to “get it.”


That is what you have been led to believe. Suicide is high in these poor mentally disturbed people. Then the therapists go and affirm them and get them to do all sorts of gender re-assignment and/or take all sorts of drugs (some with very powerful side effects) which causes more issues. You will find that the suicide rate does not really diminish post this process.

Affirming a mental illness has never been a good idea (think anorexia) and there must be far better treatments out there for those with gender dysphoria than a cocktail of drugs and mutilation.

As for what is a woman or what is a man! It is all about protecting women and not about marginalizing a segment of society. How would you like it if your daughter had to share a locker room with a trans female, or any other woman's space where they need to feel safe. It's not about marginalising minorities, its about keeping the majority safe.

While we are at it, how does saying that a woman is an adult female human actually marginalise anyone?

[Daytr]

It wouldn’t worry me in the slightest. Women are far more likely to be attacked by a heterosexual cis male, outside of a public bathroom, than they are by a transgender woman, inside one!

Honestly, you (and others here) should take the time to talk to some transgender folk. The vast majority are simply trying to live their life without any drama, just as the rest of us are. The problem is, some of you, particularly men, associate “trans” with what you have seen in p0rn, or with the very small number of “extremist” trans people (for want of a better word). 99% of the the transgender population are nothing like that. Most of them you wouldn’t even notice if you bumped into them, let alone recognise them as being transgender.

As someone who has a transgender friend, it really saddens me that people seem incapable of even trying​ to “get it.”

Well said.
And I would be more fearful of the religious zealots, after all it is proven their ilk is riddled with rapists, molesters & pedophiles.

Blackcap perhaps instead of imagining your daughter being vulnerable for no logical reason.
Imagine your child or grandchild is gay or transgender. Are you going to support them through their journey or tell them they are mentally unwell?

I to know someone who is transgender and it takes a bit of getting used to for sure, but from day one there was no judgement and it was all about getting to know the real person who they had to hide for their entire life. They are still the same loving, generous, highly intelligent person I always knew it's just now they are male not female and I am very proud of they have become.

[Balance]

The very latest poll results - Labour crashed down to 27%.

National/ACT can form government comfortably.

Hipkins figured out what a woman is yet?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-new-poll-shows-labour-crashing-nzf-rising-and-national-act-with-enough-support-to-govern/HNJHVHFYWRBY3HO735BBDFTHFA/

[Blue Skies]

The very same woke principals who have done bugger all except preside over ever declining standards in education. More teo reo to solve the education crisis?

These principals can kiss my arse.



Balance I think your anus has had more than enough exposure on here, every 3rd or 4th post.
Anyone else agree?

Perhaps time to get those haemorrhoids seen to, & no need to be embarrassed, it's quite common.
Either that or talk to someone about your prurient obsession with parts of your anatomy.

[nztx]

Balance I think your anus has had more than enough exposure on here, every 3rd or 4th post.
Anyone else agree?

Perhaps time to get those haemorrhoids seen to, & no need to be embarrassed, it's quite common.
Either that or talk to someone about your prurient obsession with parts of your anatomy.


Someone too busy on here to kiss Hipkin's arse already while the queues are light & reducing every day ? ;)

All those running away must know what over spun BS looks & smells like :)

[Balance]

Balance I think your anus has had more than enough exposure on here, every 3rd or 4th post.
Anyone else agree?

Perhaps time to get those haemorrhoids seen to, & no need to be embarrassed, it's quite common.
Either that or talk to someone about your prurient obsession with parts of your anatomy.

There is no other way to describe the bunch of self-serving woke principals who have done bugger all to lift the standard of education in their schools except to emphasis te reo as a cure all. Why have they not acted on banning mobile phones themselves if it’s such a minor but easy thing to do?

Indeed they can kiss my arse. :D

[Blue Skies]

There is no other way to describe the bunch of self-serving woke principals who have done bugger all to lift the standard of education in their schools except to emphasis te reo as a cure all. Why have they not acted on banning mobile phones themselves if it’s such a minor but easy thing to do?

Indeed they can kiss my arse. :D


Good to see you have a sense of humour (said genuinely )

[justakiwi]

Every time you open your grubby little mouth, you just confirm our suspicions that something is seriously wrong with you. I really hope for your sake it is simply fith syndrome, and not something medical. Either way, you are a sad, miserable little man who is undeserving of our concern or tolerance. You’re just not.


There is no other way to describe the bunch of self-serving woke principals who have done bugger all to lift the standard of education in their schools except to emphasis te reo as a cure all. Why have they not acted on banning mobile phones themselves if it’s such a minor but easy thing to do?

Indeed they can kiss my arse. :D

[Balance]

Every time you open your grubby little mouth, you just confirm our suspicions that something is seriously wrong with you. I really hope for your sake it is simply fith syndrome, and not something medical. Either way, you are a sad, miserable little man who is undeserving of our concern or tolerance. You’re just not.

Don’t try that Labour and Ardern stunt of casting pity or medical doubts in my direction - it dies not work with me. It may have worked with Dr Sharma (to discredit him) and Kiri Allan (to excuse her inexcusable inebriated driving and resisting arrest) but as we all know, the truth is now all coming out about Labour’s spin and lies.

Do you seriously ever wonder why you fell for Ardern’s BS, huge promises and spin - so much so you voted for her?

[SBQ]

Every time you open your grubby little mouth, you just confirm our suspicions that something is seriously wrong with you. I really hope for your sake it is simply fith syndrome, and not something medical. Either way, you are a sad, miserable little man who is undeserving of our concern or tolerance. You’re just not.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Balance's posts. He's not going to stop until Labour is completely out of gov't. What is wrong with that... all the way up to election week? The more people in discussion, the better. Voters need to be fully informed.

[Daytr]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Balance's posts. He's not going to stop until Labour is completely out of gov't. What is wrong with that... all the way up to election week? The more people in discussion, the better. Voters need to be fully informed.
Nothing wrong? Virtually every post starts with an insult. Or do you just skip that?

[jonu]

That is what you have been led to believe. Suicide is high in these poor mentally disturbed people. Then the therapists go and affirm them and get them to do all sorts of gender re-assignment and/or take all sorts of drugs (some with very powerful side effects) which causes more issues. You will find that the suicide rate does not really diminish post this process.

Affirming a mental illness has never been a good idea (think anorexia) and there must be far better treatments out there for those with gender dysphoria than a cocktail of drugs and mutilation.

As for what is a woman or what is a man! It is all about protecting women and not about marginalizing a segment of society. How would you like it if your daughter had to share a locker room with a trans female, or any other woman's space where they need to feel safe. It's not about marginalising minorities, its about keeping the majority safe.

While we are at it, how does saying that a woman is an adult female human actually marginalise anyone?

Interesting interview here by that well known religious zealot Richard Dawkins exposing the trans phenomenon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu72Lu5FqE4

[Baa_Baa]

Seymour is an idiot. He is all over the place at the moment and he may have to eat his words or just sit on the cross benches.

I don't think he's an idiot, or, "all over the place". He seems very focused with his party churning out policy that the voters can decide on, and quite articulate expressing that. He has also be quite open saying that an option for ACT is to sit on the cross benches. That would potentially mean an agreement on confidence and supply, but distance and potentially continued opposition to the government on things they don't agree with.

Seymour is a lot more savvy politician that people seem to give him credit for, and many seem to think he's the sole source of policy for ACT, whereas of course he is not, there are a lot of other committed and very clever wanna be politicians who are behind their policy development. Whether people like it or not is another matter.

It's a bit surprising in a way, that ACT seem to be so much more focused on policy than National who seems to still be floundering around a bit.

Anyway, there's still a couple of months to go to make up our minds and whoever wins the election and whatever coalition forms a government, I hope it's not another 3 years of Labour led government. They've done more than enough damage to ensure that they would never get my vote, never have, never will.

[iceman]

It’s a bit silly for punters here to single out the cellphone ban. I think Erica Stanford is one of National’s strongest MPs. I expect her to have a well formed education policy before the election and to execute it well as Education Minister. I look forward to her going up against Tinetti during the campaign.

[Baa_Baa]

It’s a bit silly for punters here to single out the cellphone ban. I think Erica Stanford is one of National’s strongest MPs. I expect her to have a well formed education policy before the election and to execute it well as Education Minister. I look forward to her going up against Tinetti during the campaign.

I agree, it will be interesting to see how or whether this 'cellphones in schools' becomes an election issue, though I doubt that it will. However, my boy went to a school that banned cellphone usage during school time, some four or so years ago. The school already had well above average academic achievement rates but the, shall we say, dramatic improvement in the attentiveness, productivity and engagement of the students was quite remarkable.

[Balance]

Where was the violence sanctioned and by who? You just made that up & not only that you contradicted yourself by reporting on the criminal charges they are facing.

Violence isn't condoned but I can sure understand how bigots like this make people angry.

Did you actually read what Chris Trotter wrote in his piece before engaging your brain? "Nevertheless, the mass demonstrations against Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (a.k.a “Posie Parker”) strongly backed by government ministers and the state-owned media, revealed just how potent a weapon the mass mobilisation of sympathetic citizens by official, or quasi-official, forces backed up by the news media, can be."

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/28/the-demonstration-effect/

And this elderly 71 year old is neither a bigot nor a threat to the 21 year old transgender who assaulted her - in the face.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/Vt95kIml1XA5fP5uY8u2zEP7bu4=/1440x810/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/D645FROKCFFGBECQSYFGYJA4LM.jpg

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/posie-parker-protest-activist-pleads-guilty-to-punching-elderly-woman-at-heated-auckland-trans-rights-protest/A5RG2HY2TJFLFKAP4OT7JLGIGU/

A young LGBTQ rights activist who was filmed punching a 71-year-old woman in the head during the heated Posie Parker counter-protest in Auckland this year has pleaded guilty to assault.

The charge against the then-20-year-old LGBTQ rights activist came after footage circulated widely on Twitter showing a heated meeting of the two groups that day. In the video, he can be seen striking the woman in the face.

[blackcap]

It wouldn’t worry me in the slightest. Women are far more likely to be attacked by a heterosexual cis male, outside of a public bathroom, than they are by a transgender woman, inside one!

Honestly, you (and others here) should take the time to talk to some transgender folk. The vast majority are simply trying to live their life without any drama, just as the rest of us are. The problem is, some of you, particularly men, associate “trans” with what you have seen in p0rn, or with the very small number of “extremist” trans people (for want of a better word). 99% of the the transgender population are nothing like that. Most of them you wouldn’t even notice if you bumped into them, let alone recognise them as being transgender.

As someone who has a transgender friend, it really saddens me that people seem incapable of even trying​ to “get it.”

Point taken that men also attack women outside the public bathroom. That is a big problem I agree. However the problem with allowing anyone who feels a way to identify as a certain way means that it is the devious men, many who suffer from autogynephilia, that will pretend to be trans, assume the role of a woman, and be in a great position to attack woman.

I actually do have transgender friends and people I associate with. And I am fine with them getting on with their lives. That is not a problem. During the lockdowns, I supported a trans person who ran a cafe and was having a lot of problems with the vaccine law as they were not vaccinated etc.

I do have a huge problem with the enablers and social contagion that this is creating and the damage that this is doing to young people (who generally have always been a bit confused during puberty, I know I was) and get a bunch of people telling them to do long term damage to their bodies.

Daytr, I will always support family and friends that are trans. But not by affirming their (what in my opinion is a mental illness) but by getting them the help they need. Especially if they are in their teenage and under years where things are already very confusing.

[Daytr]

Interesting interview here by that well known religious zealot Richard Dawkins exposing the trans phenomenon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu72Lu5FqE4

So you managed to find someone who's not actually a God bother that shares your view.
Great research that! Looking for something that underpins your view.
It reminds me of your comment that not all billionaires are right wing. 🤣 So what, by far the majority are.

And again, so what!
Another person speaking on behalf of others when they can speak for themselves, thats if they are accepted.
Like all these men that are supposedly trying to protect woman. Yeah right!
Typically the same misogynists that want women of the 1950s version.

The fact that you use the word phenomenon to describe what has been around since Adam just shows you have no clue. Men have dressed as women & vice-versa throughout history, mostly behind closed doors due to the hate, violence & possible incarceration that may have been inflicted. The British public school system following into the British military was full of it, but that was OK they were just playing dress up. Some were, some weren't.

Not so long ago, women weren't women at all in the eyes of the law, they weren't even human. They were property or a chattel.
Times change thank Gawd, just some people don't change with it.

[Daytr]

Did you actually read what Chris Trotter wrote in his piece before engaging your brain? "Nevertheless, the mass demonstrations against Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (a.k.a “Posie Parker”) strongly backed by government ministers and the state-owned media, revealed just how potent a weapon the mass mobilisation of sympathetic citizens by official, or quasi-official, forces backed up by the news media, can be."

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/28/the-demonstration-effect/

And this elderly 71 year old is neither a bigot nor a threat to the 21 year old transgender who assaulted her - in the face.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/Vt95kIml1XA5fP5uY8u2zEP7bu4=/1440x810/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/D645FROKCFFGBECQSYFGYJA4LM.jpg

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/posie-parker-protest-activist-pleads-guilty-to-punching-elderly-woman-at-heated-auckland-trans-rights-protest/A5RG2HY2TJFLFKAP4OT7JLGIGU/

A young LGBTQ rights activist who was filmed punching a 71-year-old woman in the head during the heated Posie Parker counter-protest in Auckland this year has pleaded guilty to assault.

The charge against the then-20-year-old LGBTQ rights activist came after footage circulated widely on Twitter showing a heated meeting of the two groups that day. In the video, he can be seen striking the woman in the face.

Weak, ridiculous example.
As I said no one condones violence.
But this is not a sexual crime that you are scaremongering about.

Transgender like all parts of society are capable of committing a crime, be it theft or assault. But we don't target all parts of society just because one person committed an assault. If that was the case all men would be on Home D!

Transgender is far more likely to be the victim of crime, particularly a violent crime due to the prejudice in society. They are the ones that require protection to live their lives without fear.

[Balance]

Weak, ridiculous example.
As I said no one condones violence.
But this is not a sexual crime that you are scaremongering about.

Transgender like all parts of society are capable of committing a crime, be it theft or assault. But we don't target all parts of society just because one person committed an assault. If that was the case all men would be on Home D!

Transgender is far more likely to be the victim of crime, particularly a violent crime due to the prejudice in society. They are the ones that require protection to live their lives without fear.

As expected, you did not read Chris Trotter's article before writing.

To be expected from an indoctrinated Labour parasite.

[Daytr]

As expected, you did not read Chris Trotter's article before writing.

To be expected from an indoctrinated Labour parasite.

I did but it's conspiracy theory garbage so not worth a mention. State & MSM backed!
Give me a brake!
If you want to be taken seriously at least post some credible sources.
And quite frankly all I took from the article was stirring up further division and highlighting the further potential for violence from either side.

[Balance]

I did but it's conspiracy theory garbage so not worth a mention. State & MSM backed!
Give me a brake!
If you want to be taken seriously at least post some credible sources.
And quite frankly all I took from the article was stirring up further division and highlighting the further potential for violence from either side.

Violence was all from one side at that protest - fact.

With government ministers egging the protestors on.

[Daytr]

Violence was all from one side at that protest - fact.

With government ministers egging the protestors on.

So you obviously didn't understand his article.

[Balance]

So you obviously didn't understand his article.

So very obviously more than you ever will.

[dobby41]

Every time you open your grubby little mouth, you just confirm our suspicions that something is seriously wrong with you. I really hope for your sake it is simply fith syndrome, and not something medical. Either way, you are a sad, miserable little man who is undeserving of our concern or tolerance. You’re just not.

He's off his meds again!

[Balance]

He's off his meds again!

Still drunk with Clueless Cindy's BS, spin and lies - have you not notice she bailed out of the sinking Labour ship, d41?

You eagerly waiting for her book on LACK of LEADERSHIP?

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/4/z/2/y/6/g/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1420x800 .4z2ykm.png/1674314811186.jpg?format=pjpg&optimize=medium

[moka]

Thank you Blue Skies for annunciating so clearly why Labour is such a mess. A Woman is not a social construct. A Woman is an adult human female. Simples.
It is simple if you only consider sex/biology, but when you consider gender it gets very complex, because gender is a complex concept that cannot be reduced to a simple identity.

Understanding gender as a complex relation requires unlearning old ideas and recognizing the diversity of human experience related to gender identity and expression.

Here are some key points to understand gender as a complex relation:

Gender identity: It is who you know you are in your head based on how much you align or don’t align with what you understand to be the options for gender. Your understanding of what gender is based on how you were socialized to understand it.

Gender expression: It is how you show your gender identity to other people through how you look or act. It includes how you dress, how you act, and how you speak.

Social gender: It is the set of expectations, norms, and roles that a society has for different genders. These expectations can vary from culture to culture and change over time.

Gender identity and sex: While sex is often viewed as a binary concept with two rigidly fixed options (male or female), gender identity is more complex. A person’s gender identity can correspond to or differ from the sex they were assigned at birth.

Gender diversity: Gender exists on a spectrum, meaning that there are many different ways that people can express their gender identity or sex. Some people describe themselves as “gender-fluid,” meaning their gender identity changes over time.

It is important to respect and support individuals in expressing their true gender identity, which is crucial for their emotional and mental health. In a recent study, 84% of trans people in the UK had considered suicide. Half of them attempted it.

[Daytr]

It is simple if you only consider sex/biology, but when you consider gender it gets very complex, because gender is a complex concept that cannot be reduced to a simple identity.

Understanding gender as a complex relation requires unlearning old ideas and recognizing the diversity of human experience related to gender identity and expression.

Here are some key points to understand gender as a complex relation:

Gender identity: It is who you know you are in your head based on how much you align or don’t align with what you understand to be the options for gender. Your understanding of what gender is based on how you were socialized to understand it.

Gender expression: It is how you show your gender identity to other people through how you look or act. It includes how you dress, how you act, and how you speak.

Social gender: It is the set of expectations, norms, and roles that a society has for different genders. These expectations can vary from culture to culture and change over time.

Gender identity and sex: While sex is often viewed as a binary concept with two rigidly fixed options (male or female), gender identity is more complex. A person’s gender identity can correspond to or differ from the sex they were assigned at birth.

Gender diversity: Gender exists on a spectrum, meaning that there are many different ways that people can express their gender identity or sex. Some people describe themselves as “gender-fluid,” meaning their gender identity changes over time.

It is important to respect and support individuals in expressing their true gender identity, which is crucial for their emotional and mental health. In a recent study, 84% of trans people in the UK had considered suicide. Half of them attempted it.

Very well put Moka

[jonu]

It is simple if you only consider sex/biology, but when you consider gender it gets very complex, because gender is a complex concept that cannot be reduced to a simple identity.

Understanding gender as a complex relation requires unlearning old ideas and recognizing the diversity of human experience related to gender identity and expression.

Here are some key points to understand gender as a complex relation:

Gender identity: It is who you know you are in your head based on how much you align or don’t align with what you understand to be the options for gender. Your understanding of what gender is based on how you were socialized to understand it.

Gender expression: It is how you show your gender identity to other people through how you look or act. It includes how you dress, how you act, and how you speak.

Social gender: It is the set of expectations, norms, and roles that a society has for different genders. These expectations can vary from culture to culture and change over time.

Gender identity and sex: While sex is often viewed as a binary concept with two rigidly fixed options (male or female), gender identity is more complex. A person’s gender identity can correspond to or differ from the sex they were assigned at birth.

Gender diversity: Gender exists on a spectrum, meaning that there are many different ways that people can express their gender identity or sex. Some people describe themselves as “gender-fluid,” meaning their gender identity changes over time.

It is important to respect and support individuals in expressing their true gender identity, which is crucial for their emotional and mental health. In a recent study, 84% of trans people in the UK had considered suicide. Half of them attempted it.

Thanks for laying out Gender Theory 101 that has emerged out of Gender Studies courses in the US over the last 20 years or so.

Firstly, it is important to note that there is no science in any of it. It is a belief system.

Secondly, it renders the word gender meaningless. Hence the 100+ and counting "genders" that continue to mystically appear.

Thirdly, what Gender Theory does is separate gender from sex. This is not new, it has been used this way in language for centuries. But it goes a step further in saying an individual can be any gender they choose on any given day (the fluid bit). It separates what it sees as socially constructed gender norms from sex eg boys playing with trucks, girls with dolls. But here is where it completely tangles itself up into absurdity, because then it tries to reattach those gender norms to the sex the transitioner demands to be called.

For example, a male wants to be feminine. As part of that starts wearing dresses and then demands to be called a woman. Why? Because apparently the gender norm is suddenly not a social construct but is what demonstrates them to be female (which of course they are not).

Into this mix people throw in intersex (the "i" in the alphabet soup). This effects a tiny proportion of people who don't identify as trans anyway. That's why they have their own letter.

To take the absurdity full circle parents of children who aren't conforming to gender norms are now being told their children are trans. Why? Because apparently gender norms have to be tied back to biological sex.

The horrible potential for suicide is often thrown in to shut down debate on this topic. Yes, suicide rates in the trans community are high. IIRC they are even higher in those who have surgically "transitioned". There is no evidence to say those rates are caused by persecution or whether it is down to the serious mental health problems those people suffer. Encouraging their delusion and forcing the wider population to do so as well is not the answer.

[justakiwi]

You have literally zero understanding of transgender. None. If I thought for one minute that you, and other transphobes here, would listen with open minds, and be willing to learn something, I would take the time to explain this to you. But I know there is absolutely no chance of that.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/in-IYL3ufXk?t=8&feature


Thanks for laying out Gender Theory 101 that has emerged out of Gender Studies courses in the US over the last 20 years or so.

Firstly, it is important to note that there is no science in any of it. It is a belief system.

Secondly, it renders the word gender meaningless. Hence the 100+ and counting "genders" that continue to mystically appear.

Thirdly, what Gender Theory does is separate gender from sex. This is not new, it has been used this way in language for centuries. But it goes a step further in saying an individual can be any gender they choose on any given day (the fluid bit). It separates what it sees as socially constructed gender norms from sex eg boys playing with trucks, girls with dolls. But here is where it completely tangles itself up into absurdity, because then it tries to reattach those gender norms to the sex the transitioner demands to be called.

For example, a male wants to be feminine. As part of that starts wearing dresses and then demands to be called a woman. Why? Because apparently the gender norm is suddenly not a social construct but is what demonstrates them to be female (which of course they are not).

Into this mix people throw in intersex (the "i" in the alphabet soup). This effects a tiny proportion of people who don't identify as trans anyway. That's why they have their own letter.

To take the absurdity full circle parents of children who aren't conforming to gender norms are now being told their children are trans. Why? Because apparently gender norms have to be tied back to biological sex.

The horrible potential for suicide is often thrown in to shut down debate on this topic. Yes, suicide rates in the trans community are high. IIRC they are even higher in those who have surgically "transitioned". There is no evidence to say those rates are caused by persecution or whether it is down to the serious mental health problems those people suffer. Encouraging their delusion and forcing the wider population to do so as well is not the answer.

[jonu]

You have literally zero understanding of transgender. None. If I thought for one minute that you, and other transphobes here, would listen with open minds, and be willing to learn something, I would take the time to explain this to you. But I know there is absolutely no chance of that.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/in-IYL3ufXk?t=8&feature

I took the time to pick apart the absurdity of Gender Theory. If that's the only response you have I presume you have fallen for the verbal gymnastics trick it tries to pull off. Are gender norms attached to sex or not? Gender theory wants it both ways.

[Blue Skies]

Thanks for laying out Gender Theory 101 that has emerged out of Gender Studies courses in the US over the last 20 years or so.

Firstly, it is important to note that there is no science in any of it. It is a belief system.

Secondly, it renders the word gender meaningless. Hence the 100+ and counting "genders" that continue to mystically appear.

Thirdly, what Gender Theory does is separate gender from sex. This is not new, it has been used this way in language for centuries. But it goes a step further in saying an individual can be any gender they choose on any given day (the fluid bit). It separates what it sees as socially constructed gender norms from sex eg boys playing with trucks, girls with dolls. But here is where it completely tangles itself up into absurdity, because then it tries to reattach those gender norms to the sex the transitioner demands to be called.

For example, a male wants to be feminine. As part of that starts wearing dresses and then demands to be called a woman. Why? Because apparently the gender norm is suddenly not a social construct but is what demonstrates them to be female (which of course they are not).

Into this mix people throw in intersex (the "i" in the alphabet soup). This effects a tiny proportion of people who don't identify as trans anyway. That's why they have their own letter.

To take the absurdity full circle parents of children who aren't conforming to gender norms are now being told their children are trans. Why? Because apparently gender norms have to be tied back to biological sex.

The horrible potential for suicide is often thrown in to shut down debate on this topic. Yes, suicide rates in the trans community are high. IIRC they are even higher in those who have surgically "transitioned". There is no evidence to say those rates are caused by persecution or whether it is down to the serious mental health problems those people suffer. Encouraging their delusion and forcing the wider population to do so as well is not the answer.





Before we demand people to strictly conform to our ideas of what they should be, have a read of the horrors & cruel & literally shocking way gay men were treated in British psychiatric institutions last century, with chemical & electrical Aversion Therapy to 'cure' their homosexuality. Homosexuality was also treated like a psychiatric illness, that it was contagious, just a belief system.
Remember Alan Turing being given the choice of chemical injections or being sent to jail.

Many of the arguments against gender identity are reminiscent of the same arguments that were used against homosexuality.

While I wouldn't be comfortable with puberty blockers to prevent children going through puberty, if any young adult goes through the long, difficult and tortuous process to trans to the opposite sex to find some happiness in life, why should anyone else care or want to interfere.

Here's a very enlightening read, a really nasty cruel episode in British medical/ psychiatric history.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/03/curing-queers-mental-nurses-patients-tommy-dickinson-review

[justakiwi]

I haven't "fallen for" anything. I have taken the time to educate myself and to understand transgender because I have a friend who is trans. I have probably done more research on the subject than you ever have. I have listened to (and actually heard) my friends honest sharing of her story. I am not going to share with you any of her personal stuff because I know you would not respect it. But I can tell you this. She may not be a biological female, but she is every bit a woman as I am. If I, as a biological female have no trouble accepting this, why do you? Do you feel the same way about gay people as you do about trans? Or are you a homophobe too?

Don't even bother responding. I cannot believe that in this day and age, seemingly intelligent people are still having these ridiculous debates. I am so tired of all this bull****. I despair for the human race. Nobody gives a **** about other people anymore, and nobody even seems to care.

I have nothing more to say.


I took the time to pick apart the absurdity of Gender Theory. If that's the only response you have I presume you have fallen for the verbal gymnastics trick it tries to pull off. Are gender norms attached to sex or not? Gender theory wants it both ways.

[jonu]

Before we demand people to strictly conform to our ideas of what they should be, have a read of the horrors & cruel & literally shocking way gay men were treated in British psychiatric institutions last century, with chemical & electrical Aversion Therapy to 'cure' their homosexuality. Homosexuality was also treated like a psychiatric illness, that it was contagious, just a belief system.
Remember Alan Turing being given the choice of chemical injections or being sent to jail.

Many of the arguments against gender identity are reminiscent of the same arguments that were used against homosexuality.

While I wouldn't be comfortable with puberty blockers to prevent children going through puberty, if any young adult goes through the long, difficult and tortuous process to trans to the opposite sex to find some happiness in life, why should anyone else care or want to interfere.

Here's a very enlightening read, a really nasty cruel episode in British medical/ psychiatric history.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/03/curing-queers-mental-nurses-patients-tommy-dickinson-review

Yes, horrendous things have been done to people. That doesn't do anything to reinforce Gender Theory. It does of course divert from the arguments I put forward.

BTW there is no definitive explanation for homosexual attraction. The "Gay gene" was sought when the human genome was decoded. It doesn't exist. So the "born that way" argument is severely weakened. The science is not settled on that matter. But let's not be diverted from the absurdity of Gender Theory.

[Panda-NZ-]

BTW there is no definitive explanation for homosexual attraction. The "Gay gene" was sought when the human genome was decoded. It doesn't exist. So the "born that way" argument is severely weakened. The science is not settled on that matter. But let's not be diverted from the absurdity of Gender Theory.

It is prevalent throughout history ie Ancient greece, Rome (many emperors were homosexual), China. It's obvious that many of these cases in history had "difficulties" in their marriages to the opposite sex. Hence they were unlikely to ever be attracted to females.

[jonu]

It is prevalent throughout history ie Ancient greece, rome (many emperors were homosexual), China. It's obvious that many of these cases in history had "difficulties" in their marriages to the opposite sex. Hence they were unlikely to be attracted to females.

All of which adds nothing as to why they were that way.

[Daytr]

Thanks for laying out Gender Theory 101 that has emerged out of Gender Studies courses in the US over the last 20 years or so.

Firstly, it is important to note that there is no science in any of it. It is a belief system.

Secondly, it renders the word gender meaningless. Hence the 100+ and counting "genders" that continue to mystically appear.

Thirdly, what Gender Theory does is separate gender from sex. This is not new, it has been used this way in language for centuries. But it goes a step further in saying an individual can be any gender they choose on any given day (the fluid bit). It separates what it sees as socially constructed gender norms from sex eg boys playing with trucks, girls with dolls. But here is where it completely tangles itself up into absurdity, because then it tries to reattach those gender norms to the sex the transitioner demands to be called.

For example, a male wants to be feminine. As part of that starts wearing dresses and then demands to be called a woman. Why? Because apparently the gender norm is suddenly not a social construct but is what demonstrates them to be female (which of course they are not).

Into this mix people throw in intersex (the "i" in the alphabet soup). This effects a tiny proportion of people who don't identify as trans anyway. That's why they have their own letter.

To take the absurdity full circle parents of children who aren't conforming to gender norms are now being told their children are trans. Why? Because apparently gender norms have to be tied back to biological sex.

The horrible potential for suicide is often thrown in to shut down debate on this topic. Yes, suicide rates in the trans community are high. IIRC they are even higher in those who have surgically "transitioned". There is no evidence to say those rates are caused by persecution or whether it is down to the serious mental health problems those people suffer. Encouraging their delusion and forcing the wider population to do so as well is not the answer.

Now you reference science! And not even appropriately.

You are the last person anyone should take any science lessons from, considering your views on climate change & covid etc.

Your last paragraph is an easy excuse for one who is a perpetrator. Calling it a delusion or serious mental health issues underpins your lack of empathy and understanding as Justakiwi points out.

I don't know if the suicide rate is higher in those that have transitioned or not, its very sad either way and again you lack empathy, but either way perhaps it's because the relentless bigotry continues no matter before or after.

I find it ironic that the same people that call for individual freedoms, anti mandates, it's our bodies our right to choose etc can be so hypocritical when it comes to gender.
What business is it of yours what others do?
It doesn't harm you or anyone else.

Not so long ago homosexuality was a crime. At least that is no longer the case as homosexuality or bisexuality is accepted my most in modern society. I don't include religious people in the modern set as many of them still have 1950s ideals. Many of these so called people of faith have hidden or swept under the carpet child molestation & rape, if they weren't in fact the perpetrators themselves.

Get off your hypocritical religious soap box and keep your views on someone else's sexuality or lifestyle to yourself.

[Daytr]

Before we demand people to strictly conform to our ideas of what they should be, have a read of the horrors & cruel & literally shocking way gay men were treated in British psychiatric institutions last century, with chemical & electrical Aversion Therapy to 'cure' their homosexuality. Homosexuality was also treated like a psychiatric illness, that it was contagious, just a belief system.
Remember Alan Turing being given the choice of chemical injections or being sent to jail.

Many of the arguments against gender identity are reminiscent of the same arguments that were used against homosexuality.

While I wouldn't be comfortable with puberty blockers to prevent children going through puberty, if any young adult goes through the long, difficult and tortuous process to trans to the opposite sex to find some happiness in life, why should anyone else care or want to interfere.

Here's a very enlightening read, a really nasty cruel episode in British medical/ psychiatric history.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/03/curing-queers-mental-nurses-patients-tommy-dickinson-review

Spot on. It's a very similar to the lack of empathy, understanding & the hatred & violence that was dished out against gay people.

[Baa_Baa]

Can we get back to National-FFS, if you folks want to continue your gender debate, start a new thread. Thank you.

[ValueNZ]

I find it ironic that the same people that call for individual freedoms, anti mandates, it's our bodies our right to choose etc can be so hypocritical when it comes to gender.
What business is it of yours what others do?
It doesn't harm you or anyone else.
From what I've read I don't think jonu once said people shouldn't have the freedom to transition as an adult, just that he wouldn't encourage their delusion (and it is quite definitionally delusion).

Personally, I do not care what people do with their own bodies as long as they are an adult. However, I do start to care when transgenders infringe on others rights like participating in the other sexes sport, using the other sexes public bathroom, ect.

What completely disgusts me is when children view drag queen shows, that is totally unacceptable.

[Blue Skies]

From what I've read I don't think jonu once said people shouldn't have the freedom to transition as an adult, just that he wouldn't encourage their delusion (and it is quite definitionally delusion).

Personally, I do not care what people do with their own bodies as long as they are an adult. However, I do start to care when transgenders infringe on others rights like participating in the other sexes sport, using the other sexes public bathroom, ect.

What completely disgusts me is when children view drag queen shows, that is totally unacceptable.



Wonder what you think then of Florida's banning Shakespere being taught in schools due to the implication of pre-marital sex in plays like Romeo & Julliet & raunchiness in other of the Bard's works, (excerpts only allowed )
or the banning of a children's book based on the true account of 2 male penguins which built a nest together.

And Gov Ron deSantos is running for the Republican nomination !
Beyond belief, these people are completely bonkers.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/08/florida-schools-shakespeare-sexual-material

[Daytr]

From what I've read I don't think jonu once said people shouldn't have the freedom to transition as an adult, just that he wouldn't encourage their delusion (and it is quite definitionally delusion).

Personally, I do not care what people do with their own bodies as long as they are an adult. However, I do start to care when transgenders infringe on others rights like participating in the other sexes sport, using the other sexes public bathroom, ect.

What completely disgusts me is when children view drag queen shows, that is totally unacceptable.

Isn't that their parents / family decision not yours?
Keep the %$#@ out of other peoles lives that doesn't concern you.
Using the word delusion just shows where your mind is at. Riculous.

[Daytr]

Can we get back to National-FFS, if you folks want to continue your gender debate, start a new thread. Thank you.

Sorry just saw this. Fair enough mate.
And as far as I am concerned there is no debate to be had.

[ValueNZ]

Isn't that their parents / family decision not yours?
Keep the %$#@ out of other peoles lives that doesn't concern you.
Using the word delusion just shows where your mind is at. Riculous.
I'm sure you're fine with parents exposing their young children to porn. Perhaps you wouldn't mind parents bringing their young kids into a strip-club too then.
Drag queen shows are sexual in nature and therefore it is wrong to expose children to them, it's as simple as that.

Delusion is defined as "a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, occurring especially in mental conditions".
Saying that you are a female whilst you do not met the definition of a female is delusion. Individuals in a free society are free to be delusional.

[Daytr]

I'm sure you're fine with parents exposing their young children to porn. Perhaps you wouldn't mind parents bringing their young kids into a strip-club too then.
Drag queen shows are sexual in nature and therefore it is wrong to expose children to them, it's as simple as that.

Delusion is defined as "a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, occurring especially in mental conditions".
Saying that you are a female whilst you do not met the definition of a female is delusion. Individuals in a free society are free to be delusional.

Last comment I will make.

Delusion 'a false belief' you mean like believing in god.
Anyway Blackcap let's respect the subject of the thread and move on.
If you want to discuss further start your own thread, but I won't be joining as I find the entire discourse disrespectful and insulting to a segment of society that just want to get on with their lives.

[ValueNZ]

Last comment I will make.

Delusion 'a false belief' you mean like believing in god.
Anyway Blackcap let's respect the subject of the thread and move on.
If you want to discuss further start your own thread, but I won't be joining as I find the entire discourse disrespectful and insulting to a segment of society that just want to get on with their lives.
LOL I am an atheist, so yeah it's somewhat delusional to believe in a god.

[Daytr]

LOL I am an atheist, so yeah it's somewhat delusional to believe in a god.

It wasn't a comment necessarily at you but generally at the self righteous religious that are so hot on the Trans topic.

Not sure what your reference to strip shows or drag shows has to do with Trans rights. And no Drag shows are not sexual by nature. They are a show, typically impersonation, think Britney Spears or comedy.

[ValueNZ]

It wasn't a comment necessarily at you but generally at the self righteous religious that are so hot on the Trans topic.

Not sure what your reference to strip shows or drag shows has to do with Trans rights. And no Drag shows are not sexual by nature. They are a show, typically impersonation, think Britney Spears or comedy.
This drag queen thinks drag shows are sexual, and would never perform in front of a child.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7Yr0I0JjtI

[Getty]

Those dragsters should butt out, and go and lay their rubber somewhere else!

[Daytr]

This drag queen thinks drag shows are sexual, and would never perform in front of a child.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7Yr0I0JjtI

Wow! Someone says!
Either way, who on here has suggested children should be allowed to go to a strip or drag show ?
Mostly they are performed at adult venues anyway so its a bit of a moot point.
Happy Sunday.

[ValueNZ]

Wow! Someone says!
Either way, who on here has suggested children should be allowed to go to a strip or drag show ?
Mostly they are performed at adult venues anyway so its a bit of a moot point.
Happy Sunday.
You suggested that it is appropriate for parents to allow their children to view drag shows.

I said that "What completely disgusts me is when children view drag queen shows, that is totally unacceptable."

To which you responded with "Isn't that their parents / family decision not yours?"

[moka]

Can we get back to National-FFS, if you folks want to continue your gender debate, start a new thread. Thank you.So much of actual politics these days is about identity politics. Gender is certainly a political issue in many countries, especially the US. Record number of anti-LGBTQ bills have been introduced this year.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/06/politics/anti-lgbtq-plus-state-bill-rights-dg/index.html
(https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/06/politics/anti-lgbtq-plus-state-bill-rights-dg/index.html)
And I reference Blue Skies' post just below where in Florida Ron DeSantis, the hard-right Republican governor who is now running for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination, is banning Shakespeare because of raunchiness. Thanks for posting Blue Skies. I wasn’t aware of just how extreme it has become. And although it is in the US, we in NZ are influenced by it and there are plenty of people in NZ who do support the same conservative values, although not quite as extreme.

[Daytr]

You suggested that it is appropriate for parents to allow their children to view drag shows.

I said that "What completely disgusts me is when children view drag queen shows, that is totally unacceptable."

To which you responded with "Isn't that their parents / family decision not yours?"

No you misunderstood me.
The parents / family decision I was referring to was about allowing their child to transition.

[ValueNZ]

No you misunderstood me.
The parents / family decision I was referring to was about allowing their child to transition.
Ah okay it's just that you responded to me in your reply, I made no comment on allowing children to transition. Hence I assumed it was in response to that.

[Getty]

Steven Joyce appeared on today's Q & A.

How refreshing to see a bloke who can think clearly and rationally through big issues, without being confused about his sexuality etc.

Shame he's not in Parliament anymore.

[moka]

Can we get back to National-FFS, if you folks want to continue your gender debate, start a new thread. Thank you.Let’s move the gender discussion to the Labour thread. Because gender is on the agenda and a political issue for Labour.

Mandatory reporting looms for all companies to help reduce gender pay gap
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/mandatory-reporting-looms-for-all-companies-to-help-reduce-gender-pay-gap-if-current-govts-work-continues/G5Q44ZNKLFFBXFXVTEZEUYOHWA/

[Blue Skies]

Can we get back to National-FFS, if you folks want to continue your gender debate, start a new thread. Thank you.

This is an issue for National at this election so it is relevant to this thread, & besides has been an interesting & enlightening discussion.

In the 2020 election, Labour promised to ban the abhorrent harmful practices of Conversion Therapy & in 2021 introduced legislation which would criminalise it.

When it came to passing the Bill, almost all MP's voted to support it, but National MP's Simon O'Connor, Simeon Brown, Melissa Lee, Todd McClay, Chris Penk, Michael Woodhouse, Simon Bridges, Shane Reti, all voted against the Bill banning this barbaric practice.

While they might have done so due to deeply held personal religious beliefs, the voters in their electorates they want to represent may not share those views & have a right to know.
e.g. some voters in the Tamaki electorate at the forthcoming election might be interested to know National's Simon O'Connor voted against Labour's Bill, while ACT's Brooke VanVeldon supported it.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127780028/parliament-passes-law-banning-conversion-therapy-with-near-unanimity

[iceman]

This is an issue for National at this election so it is relevant to this thread, & besides has been an interesting & enlightening]

No its not a big issue for National or indeed a huge majority of voters this election. As much as you and a few others would like it to be a distraction from things that really matter for most people. Like the economy and jobs.

I haven’t found this out of place discussion interesting nor enlightening, but boring & irrelevant

[Baa_Baa]

New thread for Gender Discrimination discussion https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12727-Gender-Discrimination&p=1015981#post1015981

[Daytr]

No its not a big issue for National or indeed a huge majority of voters this election. As much as you and a few others would like it to be a distraction from things that really matter for most people. Like the economy and jobs.

I haven’t found this out of place discussion interesting nor enlightening, but boring & irrelevant

I agree, it shouldn't be a big issue & if people just let other people be it wouldn't as all people could get on with their lives safely.

[moka]

I agree, it shouldn't be a big issue & if people just let other people be it wouldn't as all people could get on with their lives safely.Daytr, I agree people should be able to just get on with their lives without being harassed, subject to discrimination and violence because they don’t meet someone else’s expectations of gender identity.

National has some policies around safety which focus on Law and Order. But it has a very narrow focus on who the perpetrators of violence are - gangs and youth. It is very much about identity politics.



Backing police, tackling gangs. New Zealanders don’t feel safe in their own communities under a soft-on-crime Labour Government.
Combatting youth offending. National will crack down on serious repeat youth offenders like ram-raiders to turn their lives around and to protect the public.
Real consequences for crime. National will strengthen consequences for crime, increase support for victims, and ensure remand prisoners receive proper rehabilitation.

National believes that every New Zealander deserves to feel safe in their home, community and workplace.

https://www.national.org.nz/plan

[moka]

“Tough on crime” rhetoric is exploited by politicians and cheered by voters, often with thinly veiled racial or other social slurs.

https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/tough-crime-doesnt-pay
(https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/tough-crime-doesnt-pay)
Crime is an easy target for outrage. But all too often, the easiest way to signal opposition to crime is to call for ever harsher and less effective measures against criminals. Especially in a campaign season, politicians are only too ready to succumb to this temptation. The rhetorical exploitation of fear for political gain, often against better empirical evidence, can block action on criminal justice reform that is necessary, possible and critically important.

Encouraging the belief that the primary way for a society to combat crime is to punish criminals more severely leads to bad policy and sometimes to even more crime.

Politicians and the media eager to demonstrate their seriousness about crime are prone to overreaction, often exaggerating tragic incidents and localized patterns to convince voters that widespread fear is justified.
The fact that rhetoric encouraging fear works so well is all the more reason that it must be resisted and called out.

[Balance]

NZ has had nearly 6 years of Labour’s soft on crime, woke policing and be kind to criminals (who are also victims of crime according to Ardern).

The result is there for all to see - lawlessness and rampant crime.

So yes, give us tough on crime anytime.

[Balance]

I was in Royal Oak today and noticed that the small Japanese restaurant (run by a lovely Taiwanese couple) across the road from the Pak n Save shopping complex was boarded up. I inquired and was told that the place was ram raided last week. Why would anyone ram raid a mom and pop restaurant????

I did a quick Google search but there’s no mention anywhere about it.

There was this however :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/remuera-restaurant-ram-raid-security-footage-shows-vehicle-smashing-into-richard-sigleys-siso/7YB72C5GM5FRZHM767RPZZ52LU/

“Security footage of a ram raid at an upmarket Remuera restaurant shows it took two attempts to smash an SUV through a large window, before offenders appeared to make off with cash tills and liquor.“

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How sad and tragic a place Auckland and NZ have become when ram-raiding is now so common and normalised.

What next? Assaults like in Central Auckland not being reported anymore unless they involve deaths?

This is what is really happening out there in society while this government and its supporters play woke politics with the livelihood & lives of NZers.

A curse on Ardern & Hipkins - they will reap the karma of the harm they have done and are doing to NZ as a country.

[Balance]

"Children buying drugs," she said, "the social deprivation, the gang presence, and the drug issue are really out of control."

She said locals have seen so much crime, it had become normalised.

"We've become so accustomed to the crime on the street, that perhaps we're not speaking out enough."

"The gang presence in July, with a parade down Karangahape Road, that's when I really thought, 'things have gone too far'," Kate said.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/495805/so-much-crime-in-central-auckland-that-it-has-become-normal-for-locals-resident-says

[Balance]

NZ has had nearly 6 years of Labour’s soft on crime, woke policing and be kind to criminals (who are also victims of crime according to Ardern).

The result is there for all to see - lawlessness and rampant crime.

So yes, give us tough on crime anytime.

This is NZ reaping the result of Coster's 'woke policing by consent' and Ardern/Hipkins/Labour's 'be kind to crims' policies.

Get tough on crime - these thugs are giving the finger at society and the police, knowing full well that NZ's youth justice system will have them back on the streets in no time.

Go to Singapore and watch this teenagers (13-15 years old) caned and jailed - can guarantee you that they (& other like minded teenagers) will never commit such crimes again - ever.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-capture-whangarei-teens-after-48-hour-crime-spree/KRRL4SBVRJCU7L7R4PQZQTKJMA/

"Four teenagers have been captured by police after an alleged spree of burglaries, robberies and a dramatic police chase over 48 hours.

Police arrested the teenagers, aged between 13-15, this morning after a series of incidents that started in the early hours of Monday morning between Browns Bay and Whangārei.

Police allege the offending spree included burglaries, an aggravated robbery and the ramming of a police vehicle. In one incident last night police say three masked males entered a store armed with knives and screwdrivers."

[Daytr]

So the Nats are selling NZ out to international buyers. There goes the Kiwi dream of a bach!

[Balance]

So the Nats are selling NZ out to international buyers. There goes the Kiwi dream of a bach!

You can blame and point the finger at Ardern & Robertson & this clueless Labour government for making homes unaffordable for NZers.

First they banned overseas buyers for NZ homes (3% of the market) as it would bring down house prices.

Did it bring down house prices?

NZ 'enjoyed' the highest house price increases between 2019 and 2021 in the history of NZ - pricing homes out of reach of most 1st home buyers.

https://www.qv.co.nz/price-index/

Now NZers are in hock to the tune of tens of billions of dollars to overseas lenders & at their mercy as interest rates rise and rise ever higher.

A curse on Hipkins and Ardern & Robertson.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I don’t support allowing overseas buyers to access our property market, but all that reviving the ponzi will do is exacerbate the exodus overseas. Young NZers know that immigrants (and soon, overseas buyers) are being lined up to keep wages down & hoover up the available houses at vastly inflated prices. Meanwhile general inflation rampages on (petrol back over $3 a litre, red meat, eggs, and many types of vegetables virtually becoming luxury items) and the NZD sinks under 60 US cents. The export sector is well and truly in the mire, sending the nations books deep into the red - which will become apparent in the PREFU.

Allowing foreign buyers in is probably just National / ACT acknowledging that the young and skilled will leave anyway, and someone has to buy the houses of the aging boomers who want to enjoy a gold-standard retirement in a sprawling retirement village.

I’ll be intrigued to see how National turn around the decline in dairy prices (answer: they can’t) since Fonterra went ‘all in’ on whole milk powder. As mentioned previously, most of the issues facing NZ are seemingly beyond easy fixing. We have a $210 billion infrastructure deficit - while all main parties bury their head in the sand about this & are hell-bent on bringing in more people, further straining the maxed-out health system.
Madness. Utter madness.

[Blue Skies]

So the Nats are selling NZ out to international buyers. There goes the Kiwi dream of a bach!




If Christopher Luxon becomes PM he will be the most inexperienced PM by a country mile, in NZ's history.
I think that showed today when he flushed & developed that awkward facial expression he has, when trying to deflect giving a straight answer to the question if National will reverse govt policy preventing foreign buyers competing with Kiwi home buyers & re-open the door to foreign speculators buying existing NZ homes.

As much as any issue this a triggering issue for most Kiwi's & watch Hipkins & Peters go after this & the polls change before the election.
Luxon looks so unconvincing, he damages his trustworthiness when he won't give straight answers to policy questions less than 2 months from the election.

[Balance]

If Christopher Luxon becomes PM he will be the most inexperienced PM by a country mile, in NZ's history.
I think that showed today when he flushed & developed that awkward facial expression he has, when trying to deflect giving a straight answer to the question if National will reverse govt policy preventing foreign buyers competing with Kiwi home buyers & re-open the door to foreign speculators buying existing NZ homes.

As much as any issue this a triggering issue for most Kiwi's & watch Hipkins & Peters go after this & the polls change before the election.
Luxon looks so unconvincing, he damages his trustworthiness when he won't give straight answers to policy questions less than 2 months from the election.

We get it - you want and prefer seasoned career politicians like Ardern & Hipkins who BS, spun and lied to NZers to get into power.

All spin and no delivery.

Useless and clueless.

~~~~~~~~~

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!

One source of truth!

Let’s do this!

Be kind!

~~~~~~~~~~

Kiss my arse.

[777]

If Christopher Luxon becomes PM he will be the most inexperienced PM by a country mile, in NZ's history.
I think that showed today when he flushed & developed that awkward facial expression he has, when trying to deflect giving a straight answer to the question if National will reverse govt policy preventing foreign buyers competing with Kiwi home buyers & re-open the door to foreign speculators buying existing NZ homes.

As much as any issue this a triggering issue for most Kiwi's & watch Hipkins & Peters go after this & the polls change before the election.
Luxon looks so unconvincing, he damages his trustworthiness when he won't give straight answers to policy questions less than 2 months from the election.

He informed the reporters repeatedly that he would be announcing policy on housing in due course. The fact they could not understand english is not his fault. Unconvincing only to your warped mind. How long did it take Hipkins to come clean on GST on vegetables and fruit. Oh I suppose that was OK by you.

[Baa_Baa]

If Christopher Luxon becomes PM he will be the most inexperienced PM by a country mile, in NZ's history.
I think that showed today when he flushed & developed that awkward facial expression he has, when trying to deflect giving a straight answer to the question if National will reverse govt policy preventing foreign buyers competing with Kiwi home buyers & re-open the door to foreign speculators buying existing NZ homes.

As much as any issue this a triggering issue for most Kiwi's & watch Hipkins & Peters go after this & the polls change before the election.
Luxon looks so unconvincing, he damages his trustworthiness when he won't give straight answers to policy questions less than 2 months from the election.

Desperate tactics, you’re really worried about this aren’t you? So you should be, labour are soon to be a painful record in the history books,

[Daytr]

He informed the reporters repeatedly that he would be announcing policy on housing in due course. The fact they could not understand english is not his fault. Unconvincing only to your warped mind. How long did it take Hipkins to come clean on GST on vegetables and fruit. Oh I suppose that was OK by you.

So why doesn't Luxon come clean on this? What's good for the goose...

[777]

So why doesn't Luxon come clean on this? What's good for the goose...

So policy is to be announced when reporters demand it. Get a grip.

[Balance]

So why doesn't Luxon come clean on this? What's good for the goose...

How long did it take for Hipkins to finally announce the GST of fruit & veges policy?

12,000 new state houses built by Labour! Just don’t mention that was a lie (faithfully regurgitated by you) and that the state housing waiting list is up 348% since Labour took office.

Come kiss my arse, Daytr.

[dobby41]

So policy is to be announced when reporters demand it. Get a grip.

Basically, that's how reporters work!
By the way, I don't agree with that either but that's the environment the politicians live in.

[Balance]

Basically, that's how reporters work!
By the way, I don't agree with that either but that's the environment the politicians live in.

777 is pointing out the hypocrisy of the likes of Daytr or are you now so blinded by Ardern & Hipkins hypocrisies you are beyond salvation?

[Blue Skies]

He informed the reporters repeatedly that he would be announcing policy on housing in due course. The fact they could not understand english is not his fault. Unconvincing only to your warped mind. How long did it take Hipkins to come clean on GST on vegetables and fruit. Oh I suppose that was OK by you.


The difference is Hipkins released his policy on the removal of GST well before the election, wheas Luxon was praying he could delay releasing his policy on repealing the ban on foreign speculators buying NZ homes after the election! Ha.

It's less than 8 weeks to the election, why do you think Luxon's hiding this?
And look at the huge donation National got from Baylees Real estate.

Despite the criticism by tax accountants of Hipkin's removing GST on fruit & vegetables, it is def popular with the voters during a cost of living crisis. Not sure National attacking it so aggressively is helpful in positioning them as backing the average Kiwi family.

First home buyers have increased by around 25% since the Labour govt banned foreign buyers from outbidding & snapping up our existing homes.

If you want your children & grandchildren to own their own home instead of renting it from some foreign overseas owner, think carefully who you vote for.

[Panda-NZ-]

It's less than 8 weeks to the election, why do you think Luxon's hiding this?

He has form though with the sam uffindel debacle.

Trust Lux - yeah right (tui)

[Balance]

If you want your children & grandchildren to own their own home instead of renting it from some foreign overseas owner, think carefully who you vote for.

Yup - just don't vote Labour or the Greens.

They have made housing unaffordable in NZ - be it ownership or rentals, especially for 1st home buyers.

348% increase in state housing waiting list under Hipkins and Ardern - you want this for your children & grandchildren?

350% increase in families living in cars and tents.

$1m a day in emergency housing - that's how desperate this government is to cover up its gross incompetency when it comes to housing.

Remember what Labour is all about :

"Study hard, work hard and save hard so we can take from you to give to those who don't."

[Daytr]

How long did it take for Hipkins to finally announce the GST of fruit & veges policy?

12,000 new state houses built by Labour! Just don’t mention that was a lie (faithfully regurgitated by you) and that the state housing waiting list is up 348% since Labour took office.

Come kiss my arse, Daytr.

Do you have a crush on me Balance?
I know I'm a good looking guy, but you don't know that. 😅

This fixation of you wanting me & others to 💋 your arse is becoming a concern. I'm a giver but unfortunately I don't swing that way so your fantasy will have to remain that, just a fantasy.

Luxon's head looks a bit like a baby's butt so perhaps that's where your fixation is. 🤣

Either way Luxon needs to answer the question soon on the foreign buyer ban, as it's not going away & the longer he stalls the bigger this issue will get.

[Balance]

Do you have a crush on me Balance?
I know I'm a good looking guy, but you don't know that. ��

This fixation of you wanting me & others to �� your arse is becoming a concern. I'm a giver but unfortunately I don't swing that way so your fantasy will have to remain that, just a fantasy.

Luxon's head looks a bit like a babies butt so perhaps that's where your fixation is. ��

Either way Luxon needs to answer the question soon on the foreign buyer ban, as it's not going away & the longer he stalls the bigger this issue will get.

Labour’s solutions to housing - big unfulfilled promises, ban foreign buyers & record house prices!

12,000 new state houses built by Labour - lie faithfully regurgitated by the indoctrinated Labour shills.

100,000 Kiwibuild homes in 10 years. Less than 2,000 after 5.8 years in power.

Kiss my arse, Hipkins, Ardern & Daytr.

[Blue Skies]

Desperate tactics, you’re really worried about this aren’t you? So you should be, labour are soon to be a painful record in the history books,


I'll tell you our experience selling one of our properties during National's open door to foreign buyers policy.
The auction rooms in Auckland were jammed full of Asian buyers, Chinese & Sth Korean, many didn't speak English & had interpreters working for them.

There was a lovely Kiwi family with 2 school age kids desperate to buy the house we put on the market.
But they were easily outbid by an Asian women who didn't speak a word of English & had an interpreter bidding for her, & paid a ridiculous price for the house. The Kiwi family had no chance.
Turned out she bought the house so her son could get a free top secondary school education at Auckland Grammar with free health care,- her husband never bothered to come to NZ once, she was not interested in assimilating into NZ & spent a lot of time back in Korea often leaving the son alone in the house. At the end of the son's secondary school education, they both went back to Korea & sold the house for a profit (yes there was rapid house price inflation under National) not to a Kiwi family but to another Asian family who repeated the process.
There was a whole industry & network formed out of this incredible opportunity for foreign buyers & who could blame them, all perfectly enabled by the Key National govt.
It was openly being promoted back in China & Sth Korea where education is so important.

But we can't buy property over there can we.

Now is this what you want, because if Luxon reverses current govt policy, we won't ever be able to reinstall it due to our dependence on trade & the threat of trade retaliation.

[Balance]

He has form though with the sam uffindel debacle.

Trust Lux - yeah right (tui)

And trust the cover-up artists of Hipkins & Ardern & the Labour Party with the truth - follow the saga of Dr Sharma, Kiri Allan & Stuart Nash.

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12719-Bullying-in-Labour-amp-Cover-Up-Dr-Gaurav-Sharma-Vindicated

[Panda-NZ-]

National's fiscal ideas today with 8 weeks to go.

Let's rearrange some deck chairs and "I don't know" on the foreign buyers ban.

[Balance]

National's fiscal ideas today with 8 weeks to go.

Let's rearrange some deck chairs and "I don't know" on the foreign buyers ban.

Yawn.

Panda-nz who wanted Ryman to go bankrupt by loading up on more debt to do a share buyback.

Panda-nz who believes France and Australia are going back to the Stone Age for banning mobiles in school.

[Getty]

National's Party list.

Sam Huff 'n Puff ranked at 57, behind a lot of newbies, better win his seat, or he may have more time to help his wife with the shopping.

[Blue Skies]

National's Party list.

Sam Huff 'n Puff ranked at 57, behind a lot of newbies, better win his seat, or he may have more time to help his wife with the shopping.




Apart from Luxon, Sam Uffindell would be National's most well known & recognised MP wouldn't he?
Despite the humiliation of being ranked 57, Uffindell will win the seat,Tauranga has the unfortunate reputation of being the most racist, right wing city in the North Island & one of the most in whole of NZ.

Pleased to see Christopher Luxon has effectively dumped awful misogynist Michael Woodhouse out of the party.

[Getty]

Paul Goldsmith must have made a substantial donation to the Party's coffers to be 5th the on the list.

He's so incompetent he would not look out of place in the current Labour government.

[Getty]

National would be well advised to arrange for Goldsmith to be sick and unable to campaign during the election, due to foot in mouth disease!

[iceman]

Paul Goldsmith must have made a substantial donation to the Party's coffers to be 5th the on the list.

He's so incompetent he would not look out of place in the current Labour government.

Agree that it is incredible to see him with this high list ranking. He totally stuffed up as Finance Spokesman and should find something else to do

[Daytr]

NACT forgot to vote!
What sort of bumbling idiocy are these who are looking to claim power?
What the hell are we in for when they forget to vote on a Bill through parliament.
Quite incredible.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-and-act-forget-to-vote-against-david-parkers-pet-envy-project/TLQVVHKW7FF5XAPITDQIIY2OM4/

[SBQ]

Luxton will get my vote if he abolishes the foreign buyers ban in NZ AND instead, impose a Non-Resident 'buyers' tax just like Trudeau did in Canada. A non-resident / foreign person can buy any old or new residential home in NZ +20% tax on the purchase price. In Canada, this tax goes towards those in the 1st Time Home Owners buying program that supplements the down payment deposit and loan scheme to get 1st Time home owners into owning a home.

While i'm not a fan of wealth redistribution, I do believe that if you want to have a taxation to address a rising asset, it's best to do it on those who have no interest in living in NZ. I would also welcome a Vacancy tax that again Canada has imposed in many municipals. So to those fleeing Kiwis that choose Australia as their home, they best think again on the house they own in NZ if they're just holding it for sake of convenience (in case they have to move back).

[Blue Skies]

Luxton will get my vote if he abolishes the foreign buyers ban in NZ AND instead, impose a Non-Resident 'buyers' tax just like Trudeau did in Canada. A non-resident / foreign person can buy any old or new residential home in NZ +20% tax on the purchase price. In Canada, this tax goes towards those in the 1st Time Home Owners buying program that supplements the down payment deposit and loan scheme to get 1st Time home owners into owning a home.

While i'm not a fan of wealth redistribution, I do believe that if you want to have a taxation to address a rising asset, it's best to do it on those who have no interest in living in NZ. I would also welcome a Vacancy tax that again Canada has imposed in many municipals. So to those fleeing Kiwis that choose Australia as their home, they best think again on the house they own in NZ if they're just holding it for sake of convenience (in case they have to move back).




This Labour Govt brought in a ban on foreigners buying existing homes in NZ, foreigners can only build new homes with the reason being that adds to our housing stock instead of Kiwi's having to compete with foreign buyers for our existing homes. Since Labour brought in the ban, Kiwi First Home ownership has increased by 25%.

Now, National are going to remove the restrictions & let foreign speculators & buyers back into the market. It will be open season on our existing housing stock.

Who benefits ?
Real Estate agents, note Bayleys Real Estate has made a huge donation to the National Party & also Barfoot & Thomson are big donors I think.
The wealthy who already own several houses, including homes for their kids often in Trusts to keep them in the family.

Who does it hurt?
Those struggling to afford their own home & our children & grandchildren who will become tenants & never get to own their own home.

This is a major policy by National & will be hugely damaging to the country in my view.

Also since the withdrawal of the tax deductibility on Rental properties by Labour, hundreds if not thousands of rental properties have been sold off by landlords to first home buyers.
I personally know of 1 landlord who had 42 rental properties getting out of the market, selling 40 of them to couples & families who instead of being tenants now own their own homes.
Again that's got to be a good thing in my view.
If National bring that tax deductibility back, watch house prices increase as Property investors climb back into the market outbidding first home buyers, & watch the level of home ownership in NZ diminish.

Again, for the benefit of a small group, this is hugely damaging to society.

[SBQ]

@ Blue Skies:

If the ban had any effect in NZ, then let me point to you this graph:

https://i.imgur.com/4GMUvHT.jpg

The bans did nothing. As John Key said before, what is stopping a foreign person setting up a company or trust in NZ, and buying the house under that entity? Accountants and lawyers have a plethora of ways that essentially skirted around the NZ ban. Also you have exceptions to this rule such as residents of Singapore and S. Korea, who we have free trade agreements with, are exempt from this ban.

Observe all the other countries in that chart. They all have some form of CGT on ownership of multiple houses. Their house prices are no where near where NZ's house prices are, despite most of the houses in those countries are on a magnitude, 'significantly larger' than what we are building today.

[Panda-NZ-]

Paul Goldsmith must have made a substantial donation to the Party's coffers to be 5th the on the list.

He's so incompetent he would not look out of place in the current Labour government.

It's like peter goodfellow never left.

[Daytr]

@ Blue Skies:

If the ban had any effect in NZ, then let me point to you this graph:

https://i.imgur.com/4GMUvHT.jpg

The bans did nothing. As John Key said before, what is stopping a foreign person setting up a company or trust in NZ, and buying the house under that entity? Accountants and lawyers have a plethora of ways that essentially skirted around the NZ ban. Also you have exceptions to this rule such as residents of Singapore and S. Korea, who we have free trade agreements with, are exempt from this ban.

Observe all the other countries in that chart. They all have some form of CGT on ownership of multiple houses. Their house prices are no where near where NZ's house prices are, despite most of the houses in those countries are on a magnitude, 'significantly larger' than what we are building today.

That's incorrect. Setting up a trust does not get around the foreign buyer ban as Trusts have yo be examined on who is the beneficiary owner and if they have 25% beneficiary ownership then it would be reported to be examined under the foreign ownership rules.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Lefty’s should worry about their own lists: another gaggle of trade unionists, policy wonks, former student activists, hand wringers, & ivory tower intellectuals. Will be a haul of wooly-thinking idealists with little in the way of practical skills or common sense.

[SBQ]

That's incorrect. Setting up a trust does not get around the foreign buyer ban as Trusts have yo be examined on who is the beneficiary owner and if they have 25% beneficiary ownership then it would be reported to be examined under the foreign ownership rules.

You don't think lawyers have ways to make these purchases to go through? I know for a fact, foreign buyers who have taken up residency in NZ 'temporarily', conduct the transaction on buying the house under a trust scheme, then the following year, the buyer magically is no longer a NZ resident.

There are tax laws that determine an individuals tax residency for any country they live in, however there are no tax laws that prevent an individual from being a tax resident in more than one country.

The National Party is right in reviewing this Foreign Buyers Ban because it's ineffective. As i've shown in the graph, NZ house prices are still way way unaffordable.

[Getty]

The Lefty’s should worry about their own lists: another gaggle of trade unionists, policy wonks, former student activists, hand wringers, & ivory tower intellectuals. Will be a haul of wooly-thinking idealists with little in the way of practical skills or common sense.

Have you become PC Logen?

You missed out the gays.

Damien O'Connor will be disappointed.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Have you become PC Logen?

You missed out the gays.

Damien O'Connor will be disappointed.

As mentioned, it’ll be ‘a gaggle’.

[Getty]

Now we're on what is such an important subject to some, the diversity mob have already bemoaned that there is only one darkie in the Nats top twenty.

How many gays or trannies?

[fungus pudding]

Now we're on what is such an important subject to some, the diversity mob have already bemoaned that there is only one darkie in the Nats top twenty.

How many gays or trannies?

Certainly can't compete with Labour or Greens on that score

[Daytr]

You don't think lawyers have ways to make these purchases to go through? I know for a fact, foreign buyers who have taken up residency in NZ 'temporarily', conduct the transaction on buying the house under a trust scheme, then the following year, the buyer magically is no longer a NZ resident.

There are tax laws that determine an individuals tax residency for any country they live in, however there are no tax laws that prevent an individual from being a tax resident in more than one country.

The National Party is right in reviewing this Foreign Buyers Ban because it's ineffective. As i've shown in the graph, NZ house prices are still way way unaffordable.

Well they haven't been caught then and I would suggest those buyers are at risk penalties or forfeit. I know one buyer foreign buyer who was in NZ less than 50% of the time who got fined $100s of thousands of dollars on their purchases.
Their accountant or lawyer could also be in conflict with law.

[Blue Skies]

@ Blue Skies:

If the ban had any effect in NZ, then let me point to you this graph:

https://i.imgur.com/4GMUvHT.jpg

The bans did nothing. As John Key said before, what is stopping a foreign person setting up a company or trust in NZ, and buying the house under that entity? Accountants and lawyers have a plethora of ways that essentially skirted around the NZ ban. Also you have exceptions to this rule such as residents of Singapore and S. Korea, who we have free trade agreements with, are exempt from this ban.

Observe all the other countries in that chart. They all have some form of CGT on ownership of multiple houses. Their house prices are no where near where NZ's house prices are, despite most of the houses in those countries are on a magnitude, 'significantly larger' than what we are building today.



Obviously John Key got that prediction wrong.
Since the Labour govt brought in changes to housing policies including the ban on foreigners buying existing housing stock, the proportion of Kiwi First Home Buyers has increased by 25%, that's a very significant improvement in a few short years.

Makes sense doesn't it.

We already have what is effectively a CGT, its called the Brightline test & Labour extended it to 10 years. It should have gone further.
Judith Collins says National will reduce it to 2 years, all but effectively removing the CGT.

Nationals changes, reducing the Brightline test to 2 years from 10 years,
removing the restrictions on foreign buyers snapping up our existing homes,
and bringing back in tax deductibility for property speculators/investors,

will reignite a property bubble,
transfer investment from NZ companies, business & innovation towards property,
and make it extremely difficult for the average Kiwi on a good income to buy a home .

Not good for the country.

[Balance]

Obviously John Key got that prediction wrong.
Since the Labour govt brought in changes to housing policies including the ban on foreigners buying existing housing stock, the proportion of Kiwi First Home Buyers has increased by 25%, that's a very significant improvement in a few short years.

Makes sense doesn't it.

Not good for the country.

Tell it to the KIWI first home buyers who were sucked into Labour's property hype and property bubble - paying huge prices (under Labour) which are now crashing

even while

they have to fork out ever more of their incomes to service the huge loans they took (under Labour) as interest rates go ever higher.

Negative equity + crippling interest & principal payments = Labour's housing policy for KIWI 1st home buyers.

Makes sense?

Kiss my arse.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/-housing_bubble-houses-real_estate-real-estate_agents-fgan161_low.jpg

[SBQ]

Obviously John Key got that prediction wrong.
Since the Labour govt brought in changes to housing policies including the ban on foreigners buying existing housing stock, the proportion of Kiwi First Home Buyers has increased by 25%, that's a very significant improvement in a few short years.

Makes sense doesn't it.

We already have what is effectively a CGT, its called the Brightline test & Labour extended it to 10 years. It should have gone further.
Judith Collins says National will reduce it to 2 years, all but effectively removing the CGT.

Nationals changes, reducing the Brightline test to 2 years from 10 years,
removing the restrictions on foreign buyers snapping up our existing homes,
and bringing back in tax deductibility for property speculators/investors,

will reignite a property bubble,
transfer investment from NZ companies, business & innovation towards property,
and make it extremely difficult for the average Kiwi on a good income to buy a home .

Not good for the country.

You mean John Key got it right that the measures that Labour brought in, did nothing to reduce the price of houses nor will it increase the % of home ownership. That was his entire premise of the discussion.

Current 2022 stats for % of home ownership has not been released (as far as I tried to Google search). Looking at previous data in the past 25+ years, NZ home ownership peaked in 1991 at 73.8%. From last known stats in 2020, that figure has eroded to 64% on 2019 figures - There's no way in 2-3 years the Labour Party, through their Kiwi First Home Buyers program (which IMO far inferior to Canada's FTHBI), would make a significant impact on the overall home ownership %. I recall during COVID in 2020, house prices shot up crazy so I would say that would have a large impact on those at that time, wanting to buy their first home.

This Brightline test, originally at 2 years, then moved to 5 years, then moved again to 10 years is a joke. What you need to look at is real data on the % of those investors that actually pay taxes on house price gains. Psssst... there won't be many. Only a fool that does not know how to game around not paying taxes, ends up paying a tax on the house capital gain. This is very different to overseas where they have a CGT on houses with having the only exemption of the personal residence. The minute you sell your second residential rental property and CGT kicks in, no exceptions to the rule. But what we have in NZ is simple, those that form the majority of their wealth through multiple ownership of houses have gamed this Brightline test.

Obviously this does not make sense. You have an asset class called residential houses, whom people can invest as much $ they can into this scheme, never ever pay a dollar in tax on the capital gain. While those that don't even have a chance to own their own home, because their income levels are too low, have nothing but a Kiwi Saver that our gov't says 'well it's better than nothing'. They are simply screwed out because their investments are taxed in different ways like FIF (because to be diversified enough, you should own some US equities).

I'm afraid even National adjusting the Brightline test would do nothing because investors never really paid that tax. They would be better to eliminate it entirely and adopt Canada's way by simply smacking a high % tax figure for non-residents buying, while impose a CGT for those that own multiple houses.

[SBQ]

@ Blue Skies:

If you're interested, Canada's 1st Home Buyers' program:

https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/consumers/home-buying/first-time-home-buyer-incentive

The key difference is it's a 'shared equity' program meaning the Cdn gov't is taking part ownership on the purchase price of the home. If housing prices crash, well not only the home owner experiences a negative equity, but ALSO the Cdn gov't will. But over a 10 or 20+ year time frame, that has never been the case so the gov't knows that it's really hard to lose $ owning a house. Yet it's very easy for the gov't to tax gains away on those using houses as an asset class for speculation and investing.

[Daytr]

Have you become PC Logen?

You missed out the gays.

Damien O'Connor will be disappointed.

This guy constantly posts homophobic posts or innuendo.

[iceman]

NACT forgot to vote!
What sort of bumbling idiocy are these who are looking to claim power?
What the hell are we in for when they forget to vote on a Bill through parliament.
Quite incredible.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-and-act-forget-to-vote-against-david-parkers-pet-envy-project/TLQVVHKW7FF5XAPITDQIIY2OM4/

Agree on the face of it, it looks silly that neither party recorded their votes. But one has to wonder why both parties “forgot”.

Or maybe it has something to due with the Government desperately pushing through lots of Bills with little or no debate, including changing the voting age, which is outrageous without any debate https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/bruce-cotterill-while-politicians-fiddle-the-big-questions-go-unanswered/CENUS2NJU5FDRAJOD6VPFMEIKA/

[Daytr]

Now we're on what is such an important subject to some, the diversity mob have already bemoaned that there is only one darkie in the Nats top twenty.

How many gays or trannies?

Come on people clean it up! Just ridiculous.
I'm not surprised Getty posts like this as they have form.

I am surprised that Fungus Pudding & Logen Ninefingers would participate. Not your finest hour.

[Daytr]

Agree on the face of it, it looks silly that neither party recorded their votes. But one has to wonder why both parties “forgot”.

Or maybe it has something to due with the Government desperately pushing through lots of Bills with little or no debate, including changing the voting age, which is outrageous without any debate https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/bruce-cotterill-while-politicians-fiddle-the-big-questions-go-unanswered/CENUS2NJU5FDRAJOD6VPFMEIKA/

I think you are making excuses for them Iceman. It appears they just stuffed up.

The voting age change is only on local elections. With voter turnout very low for local elections having 16 yo voting will help & might re-engage their parents as well.

But agree there should be due process.

[iceman]

I think you are making excuses for them Iceman. It appears they just stuffed up.

The voting age change is only on local elections. With voter turnout very low for local elections having 16 yo voting will help & might re-engage their parents as well.

But agree there should be due process.

Not making any excuses. Just find it odd that both parties missed it but I agree with you its very poor.
So is the current running of Parliament

[Logen Ninefingers]

Come on people clean it up! Just ridiculous.
I'm not surprised Getty posts like this as they have form.

I am surprised that Fungus Pudding & Logen Ninefingers would participate. Not your finest hour.

What are you ripping into me for? I’ve simply referenced past comments made by Damien O’Connor. As far as I know he is still a Labour MP and is in fact a senior minister.

To be fair and even handed about this, James Christmas is openly gay and is a ‘list only’ candidate on National’s list. Apparently the National hierarchy have high hopes for him.

[Balance]

Tell it to the KIWI first home buyers who were sucked into Labour's property hype and property bubble - paying huge prices (under Labour) which are now crashing

even while

they have to fork out ever more of their incomes to service the huge loans they took (under Labour) as interest rates go ever higher.

Negative equity + crippling interest & principal payments = Labour's housing policy for KIWI 1st home buyers.

Makes sense?

Kiss my arse.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/-housing_bubble-houses-real_estate-real-estate_agents-fgan161_low.jpg

First home buyers under Labour :

But there is one group most likely to be currently struggling to meet its mortgage repayments.

"[There are] households that borrowed during the period of very low interest rates between late 2020 and late 2021, [and] current interest rates exceed some of the test rates used by banks during this period," the Financial Stability Report read.

"Therefore, some of these borrowers and other borrowers with high debt-to-income levels may begin to struggle to meet their repayment obligations as they reprice onto the higher rates."

Of all current mortgages in New Zealand, about 25 per cent originated in 2021, "with about a fifth of this being to first home buyers".

"Those are the people that will be most stressed out by the increase in interest rates," Ms Zollner said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-05/nz-mortgage-stress-on-the-rise-as-interest-rates-climb/102296940

https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20240a45dd0cc200c-800wi

[Daytr]

What are you ripping into me for? I’ve simply referenced past comments made by Damien O’Connor. As far as I know he is still a Labour MP and is in fact a senior minister.

To be fair and even handed about this, James Christmas is openly gay and is a ‘list only’ candidate on National’s list. Apparently the National hierarchy have high hopes for him.

The point is, who cares if someone is gay or trans or not.
Why is this up for discussion on a political thread?
Why are you feeding abhorrent posts from Getty.
I'm sure you know better or am I giving you too much credit?

[Logen Ninefingers]

The point is, who cares if someone is gay or trans or not.
Why is this up for discussion on a political thread?
Why are you feeding abhorrent posts from Getty.
I'm sure you know better or am I giving you too much credit?

If it is not up for discussion, then you haven't normalised it. You've made it taboo. If a candidate is openly gay, is proud of that, and see's that as in fact a strong point, such as a James Christmas or a Tamati Coffey, who are you to come along and say that it is actually something 'shameful' that cannot be brought up? A ridiculous attitude from you, this is the 21st century pal, not the dark ages.

[Daytr]

If it is not up for discussion, then you haven't normalised it. You've made it taboo. If a candidate is openly gay, is proud of that, and see's that as in fact a strong point, such as a James Christmas or a Tamati Coffey, who are you to come along and say that it is actually something 'shameful' that cannot be brought up? A ridiculous attitude from you, this is the 21st century pal, not the dark ages.

Wow that's an incredible outlook. Flawed but incredible!
I didn't say it's shameful to be gay and you know it, but as usual you hide and squirm away from what you said.
Do you have any self respect or will just say anything and hope it sticks?

What I said is its shameful to make a disparaging comment such as how may "gays or trans" in Getty's case, which you engaged with. Getty is known for his homophobic & transphobic comments and you are happy to oblige him.

Do we discuss or make an issue of a politician being straight? No because that wouldn't be normal to do so, or to make an issue of it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Wow that's an incredible outlook. Flawed but incredible!
I didn't say it's shameful to be gay and you know it, but as usual you hide and squirm away from what you said.
Do you have any self respect or will just say anything and hope it sticks?

What I said is its shameful to make a disparaging comment such as how may "gays or trans" in Getty's case, which you engaged with. Getty is known for his homophobic & transphobic comments and you are happy to oblige him.

Do we discuss or make an issue of a politician being straight? No because that wouldn't be normal to do so, or to make an issue of it.

Who made an issue of what now?
It’s not me making ‘an issue’ of it, it’s actually Labour, and now you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Labour

Rainbow Labour is the LGBT+ sector of the New Zealand Labour Party.

Rainbow Labour began as a branch within Chris Carter's Auckland Waipareira electorate on 17 March 1997 following his narrow defeat in the election the previous year. That same year, Tim Barnett, newly elected to Parliament as an openly gay man, established a Rainbow Special Branch in Christchurch on 3 October 1997. During the next few years the branches expanded in size, with the Auckland branch becoming one of the largest in the Labour Party. This led to the formation of a Rainbow Sector within the Labour Party, which gave the branches a nationwide focus and co-ordinating body. In 2004, at a vote at the Party's Annual Conference, Rainbow Labour was invited to nominate candidates for a permanent representative position elected from the floor of Conference, on the Party's controlling body, the New Zealand Council.


Rainbow Caucus
————————
Rainbow Members of Parliament (MPs) work closely with Rainbow Labour, and has included gay men Chris Carter, Tim Barnett, and lesbian MP Maryan Street, and transgender MP Georgina Beyer. During 2006 Charles Chauvel became an MP when a vacancy arose; similarly Louisa Wall entered Parliament in 2008 following a resignation (although she was not re-elected at the general election later that year), and Grant Robertson was elected as the MP for Wellington Central in 2008. Louisa Wall re-entered Parliament on the resignation of Darren Hughes in 2011, and left in 2022. Current MPs in Rainbow Caucus also include Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, Hon Kiri Allan, Tāmati Coffey, Shanan Halbert, and Glen Bennett.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Wow that's an incredible outlook. Flawed but incredible!
I didn't say it's shameful to be gay and you know it, but as usual you hide and squirm away from what you said.
Do you have any self respect or will just say anything and hope it sticks?

What I said is its shameful to make a disparaging comment such as how may "gays or trans" in Getty's case, which you engaged with. Getty is known for his homophobic & transphobic comments and you are happy to oblige him.

Do we discuss or make an issue of a politician being straight? No because that wouldn't be normal to do so, or to make an issue of it.

‘In elections since 1999, the Labour Party has published pamphlets advertising Labour's LGBTQIA+ candidates. This is thought to be a world first by a mainstream national political party. The Party later began including rainbow policies in its manifesto, which in 2020, included banning conversion therapy, better access, support and treatment through the health system, more funding for rainbow mental health services, and creating more inclusive school and work environments.’

[Daytr]

‘In elections since 1999, the Labour Party has published pamphlets advertising Labour's LGBTQIA+ candidates. This is thought to be a world first by a mainstream national political party. The Party later began including rainbow policies in its manifesto, which in 2020, included banning conversion therapy, better access, support and treatment through the health system, more funding for rainbow mental health services, and creating more inclusive school and work environments.’

And so? Rightly so they Govern for everyone and they have brought policy up to speed for areas that have been neglected.

You are confusing good policy with targeting someone because of their sexuality or gender. Two very different things.

[Logen Ninefingers]

And so? Rightly so they Govern for everyone and they have brought policy up to speed for areas that have been neglected.

You are confusing good policy with targeting someone because of their sexuality or gender. Two very different things.

Labour are the ones who have introduced sexuality into the mix when it comes to party candidates. You are being wilfully obtuse.

‘In elections since 1999, the Labour Party has published pamphlets advertising Labour's LGBTQIA+ candidates.’

[fungus pudding]

Come on people clean it up! Just ridiculous.
I'm not surprised Getty posts like this as they have form.

I am surprised that Fungus Pudding & Logen Ninefingers would participate. Not your finest hour.

I merely mentioned a statistical fact without judgement in any way. That not allowed?

[Daytr]

Labour are the ones who have introduced sexuality into the mix when it comes to party candidates. You are being wilfully obtuse.

‘In elections since 1999, the Labour Party has published pamphlets advertising Labour's LGBTQIA+ candidates.’

Gender & sexuality has always had a role in politics. You might remember as your views seem to date back to then, but NZ were the first ones to give Women the vote.
There was also the homosexual reform bill amoung other reforms or laws based on sexuality or gender.

I'm not the one encouraging the disgusting comments of Getty.

This getting tedious. Be a dinosaur for all I care.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Gender & sexuality has always had a role in politics. You might remember as your views seem to date back to then, but NZ were the first ones to give Women the vote.
There was also the homosexual reform bill amoung other reforms or laws based on sexuality or gender.

I'm not the one encouraging the disgusting comments of Getty.

This getting tedious. Be a dinosaur for all I care.

IMO, you are the dinosaur. Labour proudly burnish their queer credentials yet you’re advocating for some sort of cover up. Nothing to be gained in closeting Labours rainbow MP’s, they are gay and very proud. We may have own first openly homosexual PM in due course once Grant Robertson rolls Chris Hipkins. Another first for New Zealand.

[Daytr]

IMO, you are the dinosaur. Labour proudly burnish their queer credentials yet you’re advocating for some sort of cover up. Nothing to be gained in closeting Labours rainbow MP’s, they are gay and very proud. We may have own first openly homosexual PM in due course once Grant Robertson rolls Chris Hipkins. Another first for New Zealand.

You said that, no you said that, no you did.
Is that about the schoolyard playground level you have resorted to?
Give it a rest as I wont be seeing your posts anymore as I just found out how to set you to ignore, or rant all you like, just know its wasted, but most of your posts are anyway.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You said that, no you said that, no you did.
Is that about the schoolyard playground level you have resorted to?
Give it a rest as I wont be seeing your posts, or rant all you like, just know its wasted.

What a cop out.

[Balance]

What a cop out.

It’s the Ardern doctrine :

When confronted, deflect.

When deflection fails, run and hide.

That’s why Ardern is now a laughing stock these days in NZ - her name synonymous with spin, BS and failures.

[Balance]

Breaking news : Latest TV1 polls

National 37%

ACT 13%

Labour 29%

Green 12%

[Getty]

What I said is its shameful to make a disparaging comment such as how may "gays or trans" in Getty's case, which you engaged with. Getty is known for his homophobic & transphobic comments and you are happy to oblige him.

Do we discuss or make an issue of a politician being straight? No because that wouldn't be normal to do so, or to make an issue of it.

They are all normal aren't they?
Right?

If so, why are you getting off your bike?
Are you confused?

There are help lines for people like you who don't know which way to turn.

Programs such as Q & A and Newshub Nation have panels such as Matt Te Pou & co who comment on party lists, highlighting on things such as gender, race etc makeup.

It seems to go over their head they are advocating tokenism.

Those programs broadcast to a wide audience.

When l comment on ST to a clique of intellectuals, l assume tolerance of normal discussion.

Chill out mate!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Winston First on 4%, and the media still talking him up and giving him oxygen.

[Balance]

Winston First on 4%, and the media still talking him up and giving him oxygen.

The media loves Winston - he is a colorful character, has good political instincts to tap into the 5% to 10% of NZers unhappy with the other parties and he gives the media plenty of news to work on.

Democracy at play - blame the MMP system, not those who know how to play by MMP rules.

[Daytr]

They are all normal aren't they?
Right?

If so, why are you getting off your bike?
Are you confused?

There are help lines for people like you who don't know which way to turn.

Programs such as Q & A and Newshub Nation have panels such as Matt Te Pou & co who comment on party lists, highlighting on things such as gender, race etc makeup.

It seems to go over their head they are advocating tokenism.

Those programs broadcast to a wide audience.

When l comment on ST to a clique of intellectuals, l assume tolerance of normal discussion.

Chill out mate!

Many of your posts are far from normal & are abhorrent.

I am not the only poster to call you out for your disgusting posts. And no they shouldn't be tolerated.

It's the equivalent of suggesting racism should be tolerated. Those days are gone thank goodness, not that you would know it on here at times.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The media loves Winston - he is a colorful character, has good political instincts to tap into the 5% to 10% of NZers unhappy with the other parties and he gives the media plenty of news to work on.

Democracy at play - blame the MMP system, not those who know how to play by MMP rules.

I blame the media. It stinks how they promote populist grandstander Peters.

[Balance]

Now this makes superb sense - scrapping the free prescription charges for the wealthy like Hipkins and Ardern who can afford the $5 charge, and use the money saved to provide cancer treatments :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300954669/national-will-pay-for-13-cancer-treatments-by-bringing-back-prescription-fees

Hipkins and Labour think they can bribe NZers with free this and free that but the electorate has woken up to what a useless and clueless bunch this government is.

[777]

Now this makes superb sense - scrapping the free prescription charges for the wealthy like Hipkins and Ardern who can afford the $5 charge, and use the money saved to provide cancer treatments :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300954669/national-will-pay-for-13-cancer-treatments-by-bringing-back-prescription-fees

Hipkins and Labour think they can bribe NZers with free this and free that but the electorate has woken up to what a useless and clueless bunch this government is.

He should have just reverted to what was in place before Labour changed things. It is close but if you are are pensioner earning income you now get free prescriptions. Stupid.

[Balance]

He should have just reverted to what was in place before Labour changed things. It is close but if you are are pensioner earning income you now get free prescriptions. Stupid.

Electorally it would make National look mean to completely scrap the free prescriptions to pensioners - this move makes sense and the majority of NZers will see it for that.

The shameless & useless Labour government under Hipkins and Ardern is now like a headless chook spreading blood all over the yard.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/W8CMeAROj9I_wNQEfkJxBkl7UzM=/1440x962/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/HHQFEDE7XRD6PJJUE7JXBWRRIU.JPG

[causecelebre]

Electorally it would make National look mean to completely scrap the free prescriptions to pensioners - this move makes sense and the majority of NZers will see it for that.

The shameless & useless Labour government under Hipkins and Ardern is now like a headless chook spreading blood all over the yard.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/W8CMeAROj9I_wNQEfkJxBkl7UzM=/1440x962/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/HHQFEDE7XRD6PJJUE7JXBWRRIU.JPG

And not just superannuitants but others on low incomes

[causecelebre]

Interest that Oncologist Chris Jackson commented this morning he believes that its polititions dictating which services get priority. Now, I am no Pharmac expert but it strikes me that this is simply ring fencing money for those treatments and not a mandate to prioritise those over treatments for other conditions?

No doubt his views are independent to that of his wife: Labour MP Racheal Brooking.

[Blue Skies]

Interest that Oncologist Chris Jackson commented this morning he believes that its polititions dictating which services get priority. Now, I am no Pharmac expert but it strikes me that this is simply ring fencing money for those treatments and not a mandate to prioritise those over treatments for other conditions?

No doubt his views are independent to that of his wife: Labour MP Racheal Brooking.


Although I applaud any increase in funding for cancer treatment & think this is politically a winner, Chris Jackson is of course absolutely correct.
National are dictating which medical treatments will get funding ( specifying several cancer treatments) instead of leaving it to PHARMAC to decide which have the highest needs & priority & the money going towards those. They're unlikely to be to the same & until this, politicians have never made these kinds of decisions about which patients will get funded & which will miss out.
It's new territory & dodgy.

[Balance]

Interest that Oncologist Chris Jackson commented this morning he believes that its polititions dictating which services get priority. Now, I am no Pharmac expert but it strikes me that this is simply ring fencing money for those treatments and not a mandate to prioritise those over treatments for other conditions?

No doubt his views are independent to that of his wife: Labour MP Racheal Brooking.

Did he disclose that fact before he made the statement?

Will have respect for his view if he did that.

[Blue Skies]

PHARMAC which is an independent body of medical specialists was set up to prioritise decisions around which treatments are most urgent, give best return for money spent, etc and we're getting into new territory when politicians start making decisions around which treatments i.e. which patients will get funded & which miss out.
Should politicians have to disclose any ill close relatives or friends who may have influenced their choices over ruling PHARMAC ?

[Balance]

PHARMAC which is an independent body of medical specialists was set up to prioritise decisions around which treatments are most urgent, give best return for money spent, etc and we're getting into new territory when politicians start making decisions around which treatments i.e. which patients will get funded & which miss out.
Should politicians have to disclose any ill close relatives or friends who may have influenced their choices over ruling PHARMAC ?

Most transparent government ever, remember?

One source of truth!

The undertakings of Hipkins and Ardern & this shameless deceitful Labour government are not worth a bucket of spit.

[Logen Ninefingers]

PHARMAC which is an independent body of medical specialists was set up to prioritise decisions around which treatments are most urgent, give best return for money spent, etc and we're getting into new territory when politicians start making decisions around which treatments i.e. which patients will get funded & which miss out.
Should politicians have to disclose any ill close relatives or friends who may have influenced their choices over ruling PHARMAC ?

‘Should politicians have to disclose any ill close relatives or friends who may have influenced their choices over ruling PHARMAC ?’

———

Do you know anyone who has, or has had, that disease called cancer? Seems to be quite a common one, a real killer by all accounts. In fact, some would say that ‘the big C’ is the scourge of our times: I read in the media about whole NZ families getting their stomachs removed as a preventative measure, due to a certain gene they possess. Other recent stories are about brave people battling incurable bowel cancer.
I got news yesterday that a lovely young lady I used to work with has now been moved into hospice care, after a brave fight which now looks to be lost.
Quite dreadful that you believe more funding for cancer treatments is tantamount to political skullduggery and that politicians may be motivated by some sort of personal gain in announcing such a policy. We could keep going with your very long bow and surmise that because Chipkins eats fresh fruit and vegetables then he must be wanting to take GST off them for his own personal financial gain.

The Left - as personified by you - are really quite tiresome with their continuous puerile demonising of anyone from the political Right.

[Blue Skies]

‘Should politicians have to disclose any ill close relatives or friends who may have influenced their choices over ruling PHARMAC ?’

———

Do you know anyone who has, or has had, that disease called cancer? Seems to be quite a common one, a real killer by all accounts. In fact, some would say that ‘the big C’ is the scourge of our times: I read in the media about whole NZ families getting their stomachs removed as a preventative measure, due to a certain gene they possess. Other recent stories are about brave people battling incurable bowel cancer.
I got news yesterday that a lovely young lady I used to work with has now been moved into hospice care, after a brave fight which now looks to be lost.
Quite dreadful that you believe more funding for cancer treatments is tantamount to political skullduggery and that politicians may be motivated by some sort of personal gain in announcing such a policy. We could keep going with your very long bow and surmise that because Chipkins eats fresh fruit and vegetables then he must be wanting to take GST off them for his own personal financial gain.

The Left - as personified by you - are really quite tiresome with their continuous puerile demonising of anyone from the political Right.



This is ridiculous, the political polarisation on here has gone into overdrive. We can't even have a rational debate about issues without attacking the other poster.

You missed the part where I said "I applaud any increase in funding for cancer treatment...."
You disparagingly say "Do I know anyone who has, or had that disease called cancer?"

Well yes, I went through brutal chemotherapy just 3 years ago for cancer & unfortunately since my remission was brief & my cancer has returned am now battling it again & in the middle of gruelling treatment again.
Please just take a bit more care & thought before you try & teach me or anyone else a lesson about cancer.

Personally of course I'm thrilled & grateful Luxon will increase funding for these cancers, & its a brilliant political move on the eve of an election.

We are way behind Australia in fully funded cancer treatments, but there is an issue here around who decides to prioritise where health funding goes & there are many other illnesses & patients who need funding. Do we suddenly let politicians decide these priorities because they too can be heavily influenced by personal circumstances.
The PHARMAC model for delivering the best returns on limited health dollars is the best in the world & should we start interfering with it?

It's worth noting PHARMAC was drastically underfunded under the last National govt & Labour increased funding by a record 40% & yet we are still behind countries like Australia in terms of life expectancy for cancer patients.

[Balance]

National is outflanking Labour on every front because Hipkins & this Labour government cannot point to the successful delivery of their promises and policies.

Hence, the promises in the distant future rather than their track record - no wonder Hipkins & Labour are getting thrashed in the polls.

Roll on October 2023.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1692650991926-4SSIW3LBEAA4SJZCB75Y/promises+promise+promises.jpg?format=2500w

[causecelebre]

Did he disclose that fact before he made the statement?

Will have respect for his view if he did that.

Ha, of course not.

[Balance]

Ha, of course not.

Most transparent government ever!

One source of truth!

Hipkins and Ardern - the most deceitful PMs in NZ’s history.

[causecelebre]

PHARMAC which is an independent body of medical specialists was set up to prioritise decisions around which treatments are most urgent, give best return for money spent, etc and we're getting into new territory when politicians start making decisions around which treatments i.e. which patients will get funded & which miss out.
Should politicians have to disclose any ill close relatives or friends who may have influenced their choices over ruling PHARMAC ?

As I understand it though its not pooled with other funding. Its ring fenced for those specific treatments. All other funding should not be effected. If someone qualifies then they get a funded treatment. I suppose your argument is though that that Cancer treatment funding *should* be pooled with funding for other illnesses and and treatment determined on a as needed basis.

Note that Chris Jackson also said he believes the funding better directed to the pipeline of training specialist health care workers. Not the funding of a new hospital, etc, per se but rather the specialist training required for Oncologists, etc.

Either way I think the funding should be redirected away from those that can afford a $5 prescription and toward specialists or specialised treatments. I do not know enough to have a real informed opinion on the politics of PARMAC

[Logen Ninefingers]

This is ridiculous, the political polarisation on here has gone into overdrive. We can't even have a rational debate about issues without attacking the other poster.

You missed the part where I said "I applaud any increase in funding for cancer treatment...."
You disparagingly say "Do I know anyone who has, or had that disease called cancer?"

Well yes, I went through brutal chemotherapy just 3 years ago for cancer & unfortunately since my remission was brief & my cancer has returned am now battling it again & in the middle of gruelling treatment again.
Please just take a bit more care & thought before you try & teach me or anyone else a lesson about cancer.

Personally of course I'm thrilled & grateful Luxon will increase funding for these cancers, & its a brilliant political move on the eve of an election.

We are way behind Australia in fully funded cancer treatments, but there is an issue here around who decides to prioritise where health funding goes & there are many other illnesses & patients who need funding. Do we suddenly let politicians decide these priorities because they too can be heavily influenced by personal circumstances.
The PHARMAC model for delivering the best returns on limited health dollars is the best in the world & should we start interfering with it?

It's worth noting PHARMAC was drastically underfunded under the last National govt & Labour increased funding by a record 40% & yet we are still behind countries like Australia in terms of life expectancy for cancer patients.

Good luck with your cancer battle, I wish you all the best and hope you can defeat it once and for all.

With regards to your statement as follows: "but there is an issue here around who decides to prioritise where health funding goes & there are many other illnesses & patients who need funding. Do we suddenly let politicians decide these priorities because they too can be heavily influenced by personal circumstances."

- I still fail to see the validity on this 'personal circumstances' hobby-horse that you on when it comes to politicians and their relationship with PHARMAC. But if you really do believe that people will invariably direct funding towards measures aligned to their 'personal circumstances', then how do you know that this 'fact' is not influencing the decision making of the decision makers at PHARMAC?

- Surely politicians set up PHARMAC in the first place. It did not spring into being of its own volition.

- Surely politicians change parameters all the time, such as when Labour changed the mandate of the (independent) Reserve Bank, and now we see a Labour policy that (arbitrarily) would see GST removed from fresh fruit and vegetables but remain applied to numerous other food products.

[Panda-NZ-]

The $5 prescription charge should be ditched as a policy.

It would turn pharmacists into receptionists which they didn't train to be (and adds paper to landfill) for the sake of five bucks.

[777]

The $5 prescription charge should be ditched as a policy.

It would turn pharmacists into receptionists which they didn't train to be (and adds paper to landfill) for the sake of five bucks.

Turn them into? They have been doing it for years. Don't make it sound like it's something new.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The $5 prescription charge should be ditched as a policy.

It would turn pharmacists into receptionists which they didn't train to be (and adds paper to landfill) for the sake of five bucks.

An administrative nightmare? Look past that molehill towards the mountain called 'removing GST from fresh fruit and vegetables'.

[iceman]

Although I applaud any increase in funding for cancer treatment & think this is politically a winner, Chris Jackson is of course absolutely correct.
National are dictating which medical treatments will get funding ( specifying several cancer treatments) instead of leaving it to PHARMAC to decide which have the highest needs & priority & the money going towards those. They're unlikely to be to the same & until this, politicians have never made these kinds of decisions about which patients will get funded & which will miss out.
It's new territory & dodgy.

As you well know, the highlighted part of your statement is completely wrong. We currently have access to medical service based on race, so the current Government has indeed made decisions about which patients get service.

I'm sorry to read about your personal health battles and wish you a speedy and full recovery.

[Blue Skies]

Good luck with your cancer battle, I wish you all the best and hope you can defeat it once and for all.

With regards to your statement as follows: "but there is an issue here around who decides to prioritise where health funding goes & there are many other illnesses & patients who need funding. Do we suddenly let politicians decide these priorities because they too can be heavily influenced by personal circumstances."

- I still fail to see the validity on this 'personal circumstances' hobby-horse that you on when it comes to politicians and their relationship with PHARMAC. But if you really do believe that people will invariably direct funding towards measures aligned to their 'personal circumstances', then how do you know that this 'fact' is not influencing the decision making of the decision makers at PHARMAC?

- Surely politicians set up PHARMAC in the first place. It did not spring into being of its own volition.

- Surely politicians change parameters all the time, such as when Labour changed the mandate of the (independent) Reserve Bank, and now we see a Labour policy that (arbitrarily) would see GST removed from fresh fruit and vegetables but remain applied to numerous other food products.


Cheers LN, thanks for the encouragement, & much appreciated.
There's probably a few on here who would be pleased to see the back of me, ha, but hope to be around for a while yet!
There's some great new effective cancer drugs, we just need more funding & of course I'm really pleased Chris Luxon is switching funding for everyone for prescription charges, to fund more cancer treatments. Those on Community Service cards & those on Super still getting free prescriptions I think.

Re PHARMAC, its quite a large independent organisation with a senior group of medical people & others making decisions based on strict criteria, informed research, feedback etc & those decisions are often challenged & have to stand up to scrutiny.

I just can't imagine letting politicians like say, Kelvin Davis or Chris Bishop (ironically a tobacco lobbyist in a previous life) or David Seymour dictating which new drugs or medical treatments will be funded from the health budget.
We see in America there's a lot of lobbying by powerful pharmaceutical companies of politicians & doctors, e.g. just look at the opiate disaster.

However, I don't want to over-egg this, and not suggesting for a moment there's anything wrong here.

[Blue Skies]

As you well know, the highlighted part of your statement is completely wrong. We currently have access to medical service based on race, so the current Government has indeed made decisions about which patients get service.

I'm sorry to read about your personal health battles and wish you a speedy and full recovery.


Thanks Iceman, thats really kind of you & much appreciated.

[Baa_Baa]

Pharmac have placed NZ as the last country in the OECD to get drugs fully funded from the time they are released for use. Charts to come. Fact is, Pharmac are focused on cost, not patient outcomes.

[FTG]

... but there is an issue here around who decides to prioritise where health funding goes & there are many other illnesses & patients who need funding. Do we suddenly let politicians decide these priorities ....


So BS, on that basis one can be confident that you are just as staunchly opposed to the current tinkering with the NZ health system - directing that now the RACE of the patient needs to also be referenced (as a matter of priority) when prioritising management of resources?

[SBQ]

Pharmac have placed NZ as the last country in the OECD to get drugs fully funded from the time they are released for use. Charts to come. Fact is, Pharmac are focused on cost, not patient outcomes.

My father is a NZ citizen but non-resident living in Canada. Since my dad has been on his blood thinner medication (Pradaxa) we've always had the prescriptions filled out in NZ as in Canada, it's only partly subsidised. Actually most prescription drugs are partly subsidised ; this allows for all those private pharmacy companies from Walmart to Costco to keep a market share. They're indeed profiting off the sale of prescriptions ; we don't have this in NZ.

So in response, NZ really is not a last country to receive long established prescription drug medications. It may be that the latest drugs are not subsidised here but at least from what I see in Canada, nothing there is 100% free in their prescription drug scheme.

[winner69]

Woodhouse gone burger

Proof that gender diversity initiatives not good news for the ‘mediocre man’

[Balance]

So BS, on that basis one can be confident that you are just as staunchly opposed to the current tinkering with the NZ health system - directing that now the RACE of the patient needs to also be referenced (as a matter of priority) when prioritising management of resources?

Don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer from one of our resident Labour shills.

Interesting to note that it has been observed that the champion of using te reo, Labour, has not got any Maori language in their electioneering campaign. Not even bilingual ones. Why not?

[Baa_Baa]

Don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer from one of our resident Labour shills.

Interesting to note that it has been observed that the champion of using te reo, Labour, has not got any Maori language in their electioneering campaign. Not even bilingual ones. Why not?

Hypocrisy. Since Hipkin’s reign, all the years of hypocrisy are laid bare for everyone to see, in a cynical pursuit of another term. The pathetic promises and last minute legislation further evidence of this.

Not long to go now.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Woodhouse gone burger

Proof that gender diversity initiatives not good news for the ‘mediocre man’

Will he pick up a ‘sympathy vote’ in Dunedin? Surely the people down there can do better than the likes of David Clark.

[Daytr]

Don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer from one of our resident Labour shills.

Interesting to note that it has been observed that the champion of using te reo, Labour, has not got any Maori language in their electioneering campaign. Not even bilingual ones. Why not?

Most of your posts I don't give time of day to, but I think you have raised an interesting inconsistency in regards Labour's bi-lingual agenda.

[fungus pudding]

Will he pick up a ‘sympathy vote’ in Dunedin? Surely the people down there can do better than the likes of David Clark.

Even God couldn't win a seat in Dunedin unless she stood for Labour.

[Panda-NZ-]

What voters want is strong economic mismanagement from national.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bepYN8Aabf0&t=360s

Skip to 6:15 for the luxon special :)

[Logen Ninefingers]

What voters want is strong economic mismanagement from national.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bepYN8Aabf0&t=360s

Skip to 6:15 for the luxon special :)

Chippy called the Speaker “Mr Teacher” during Question Time today.

You go trawling through interview footage looking for minor flubs do you?
You really hate Luxon for some reason, did he run over your dog?

[Panda-NZ-]

He rarely allows interviews (for good reason).

[Bjauck]

My father is a NZ citizen but non-resident living in Canada. Since my dad has been on his blood thinner medication (Pradaxa) we've always had the prescriptions filled out in NZ as in Canada, it's only partly subsidised. Actually most prescription drugs are partly subsidised ; this allows for all those private pharmacy companies from Walmart to Costco to keep a market share. They're indeed profiting off the sale of prescriptions ; we don't have this in NZ.

So in response, NZ really is not a last country to receive long established prescription drug medications. It may be that the latest drugs are not subsidised here but at least from what I see in Canada, nothing there is 100% free in their prescription drug scheme.
It is great that free prescriptions have been introduced. Good for community health if more infections are treated. Also good that the big chains won’t be able to use free scripts as loss leaders. Maybe there will be more dispensaries close to surgeries as opposed to being located in less accessible shopping centres.

[Getty]

Even God couldn't win a seat in Dunedin unless she stood for Labour.

Probably not, so fortunately my wife isn't standing.

[Balance]

Probably not, so fortunately my wife isn't standing.

Good one, Getty!

Reminds me of the story about the WWC which just finished :

England asked God when they will win the WWC and God said in another 25 years. The English cried.

Australia then asked God and God said in another 30 years. The Aussies cried.

New Zealand followed and asked. God cried.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e08f0b_beaf79c2ef9341f3aade4a3de446c542~mv2.gif

[moka]

Landlords as victims.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/132800974/the-gravy-train-is-over-why-my-tiniest-violin-is-out-for-landlords

(https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/132800974/the-gravy-train-is-over-why-my-tiniest-violin-is-out-for-landlords)The difficulty is that these landlords don’t see that they’re not victims here. This is proven by this landlord’s missive. He is telling a country where there are more than 25,500 households waiting for a home, with 89% of those in significant and urgent need, that he will board up his rental – because he’s upset he can’t make as much money off it.

Landlords believe their investment is a business, until they’re asked to pay tax. Then it’s a service. And it’s a service until they want to board up a home during a housing crisis, then it’s a business.

National leader Christopher Luxon, who owns seven properties worth more than $16 million, wants to push through a lot of new laws that will financially benefit him and other landlords, to the detriment of renters.

[causecelebre]

So says the parenting author who doesn't own a home though lives in a rent subsidised house owned by a family member. That article just oozes jealousy and spite.

You can hardly blame them - landlords. They have been taught that to get ahead you need to get levered, buy property, take advantage of the tax system, leave a legacy. Landlords didn't make this up. Society did

[fungus pudding]

So says the parenting author who doesn't own a home though lives in a rent subsidised house owned by a family member. That article just oozes jealousy and spite.

You can hardly blame them - landlords. They have been taught that to get ahead you need to get levered, buy property, take advantage of the tax system, leave a legacy. Landlords didn't make this up. Society did

In what way could landlords take advantage of the tax system (short of illegally - such as simply not declaring)?

[causecelebre]

In what way could landlords take advantage of the tax system (short of illegally - such as simply not declaring)?

Why do anything illegal? There is no need. Take advantage of no stamp duty, no proper CGT, negative gearing, tax deduction on interest payments. No, i'm not talking the last few years as we know the tax system has been shored up somewhat but thats just a change of legislation away and has been a fact historically. The system is (was and will be again sooner or later) setup to provide an advantage for property speculation.

Don't hate the players, hate the game

[Logen Ninefingers]

NZ is the Greece of the South Pacific.
The aim of the game here is to join the public service, preferably in a highly paid make-work or policy wonk position or as an ivory tower intellectual.

Our export ‘strategy’ has actually gone backwards, and now consists of the rawest of raw materials, mostly unprocessed logs and whole milk powder (since Fonterra got itself into a mess with its investment forays into China, then ‘repaired its balance sheet’ by selling off the higher processing parts of its business to ‘go back to basics’. D’oh!)

Because of a lack of an effective CGT (‘brightline test’ doesn’t include the so-called ‘family home’) we’ve now missed decades worth of windfall revenue which could have been used to upgrade infrastructure, and we now face a $210 billion infrastructure deficit. Tax avoidance (a national pastime in Greece) in NZ has consisted of the populace ‘avoiding’ voting in a comprehensive CGT, but that horse has now bolted and the Left can only offer up ‘wealth’ taxes as a poor alternative.

As mentioned in a post above, people gravitated towards owning additional properties and being landlords because it was extremely advantageous to do so. New Zealand is one of the laziest countries in the world in terms of how we’ve structured our economy: all in on property, all in on high levels of immigration, all in on exporting commodities in the rawest of the raw state, all in on high government spending. Productivity and innovation are nowhere to be seen. We are now paying the price for these colossal mistakes.

[fungus pudding]

Why do anything illegal? There is no need. Take advantage of no stamp duty, no proper CGT, negative gearing, tax deduction on interest payments. No, i'm not talking the last few years as we know the tax system has been shored up somewhat but thats just a change of legislation away and has been a fact historically. The system is (was and will be again sooner or later) setup to provide an advantage for property speculation.

Don't hate the players, hate the game

Which of those points amount to taking advantage of the tax system?

[Daytr]

I have always thought it was a shame that it was Jenny Shipley that was NZs first female PM, especially the way she got there and then lost the election.

She lives in Russell & promotes the beauty of the coastal lifestyle whilst having been on the board of TTR who want to indiscriminantly vacuum up the sea floor of the Taranaki.

Looks like 'things' might gave caught up with her & the other directors of Mainzeal.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132799391/former-prime-minister-dame-jenny-shipleys-mainzeal-supreme-court-appeal-fails

[Logen Ninefingers]

I have always thought it was a shame that it was Jenny Shipley that was NZs first female PM, especially the way she got there and then lost the election.

She lives in Russell & promotes the beauty of the coastal lifestyle whilst having been on the board of TTR who want to indiscriminantly vacuum up the sea floor of the Taranaki.

Looks like 'things' might gave caught up with her & the other directors of Mainzeal.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132799391/former-prime-minister-dame-jenny-shipleys-mainzeal-supreme-court-appeal-fails

What a nasty post.

[Panda-NZ-]

I have always thought it was a shame that it was Jenny Shipley that was NZs first female PM, especially the way she got there and then lost the election.


They are supposed to believe in personal responsibility but in Jenny's case it's deny, deny, appeal, appeal. Well, enjoy the $3m interest.

[Logen Ninefingers]

They are supposed to believe in personal responsibility but in Jenny's case it's deny, deny, appeal, appeal. Well, enjoy the $3m interest.

Another nasty post. I bet people like you wholeheartedly support sentences which enable thugs convicted of violence offences to put their feet up on ‘home detention’.

[Daytr]

What a nasty post.

What utter nonsense

Haha I gave you a reprieve but it's only taken a couple of hours to prove reading your posts is a waste of time.

So back on ignore you go

[Logen Ninefingers]

What utter nonsense

Haha I gave you a reprieve but it's only taken a couple of hours to prove reading your posts is a waste of time.

So back on ignore you go

You think I care? 😂

[Panda-NZ-]

Another nasty post. I bet people like you wholeheartedly support sentences which enable thugs convicted of violence offences to put their feet up on ‘home detention’.

Nope we need to be tough on crime, including white collar crime.

[causecelebre]

Which of those points amount to taking advantage of the tax system?

Are you questioning the semantics of the phrase "take advantage" ? I'm not sure of the framing of your question? Perhaps I should have used "work within the framework of the NZ property system" or some such thing?

I'm guessing by your line of questioning you are whole heartedly in support of Emily Writes opinion?

[fungus pudding]

Are you questioning the semantics of the phrase "take advantage" ? I'm not sure of the framing of your question? Perhaps I should have used "work within the framework of the NZ property system" or some such thing?

I'm guessing by your line of questioning you are whole heartedly in support of Emily Writes opinion?

I just wonder where you see a supposed advantage in property investment, compared to any other business, when in fact, with real depreciation no longer deductable, there may be disadvantage.

[Bjauck]

Nope we need to be tough on crime, including white collar crime. Is trading while insolvent actually a crime rather than a civil offence against company law? In this case won’t the directors still have liability insurance coverage?

[causecelebre]

I just wonder where you see a supposed advantage in property investment, compared to any other business, when in fact, with real depreciation no longer deductable, there may be disadvantage.

Yes, agree, for sure. Its a loosing proposition at the moment and i'd advocate for putting investment funds into productive assets. However, my contention is that this could change with a change of govt, e.g. we could see tax deductibility returned, bright-line tests back to 5 years or even 2, ring fencing of negatively geared property and changes to the Residential Tenancies Act. Even still, tax deductibility still applies new builds. When I write this all out investors have had it easy for so long and I cannot blame NZer's from taking advantage :) Despite all the current challenges where else can you get such easy access to leveraged investment funding?!

[SBQ]

Yes, agree, for sure. Its a loosing proposition at the moment and i'd advocate for putting investment funds into productive assets. However, my contention is that this could change with a change of govt, e.g. we could see tax deductibility returned, bright-line tests back to 5 years or even 2, ring fencing of negatively geared property and changes to the Residential Tenancies Act. Even still, tax deductibility still applies new builds. When I write this all out investors have had it easy for so long and I cannot blame NZer's from taking advantage :) Despite all the current challenges where else can you get such easy access to leveraged investment funding?!

Because NZ is probably the only place in the developed world that does not tax capital gains on owning multiple houses. The Brightline test never does anything as the mortgage time frame for buying a house is typically 10 - 25 years. Or i'm sure some MP could find out the real data on how many houses were assessed to pay a CGT 'like' tax.

While the working class is screwed with a doggy bone called Kiwi Saver. It's investments (for which a portion of it) would be invested abroad to own shares like Apple and Google, etc face a paper gain tax annually under the FIF tax scheme. This alone + fund management fees in my opinion, negates the 3% matching contribution that employers pay. It was never intended to be an investment scheme where one can retire off as recently, a review showed the average balance in Kiwi Saver is around $30,000 since it's introduction over 16 years ago.

My previous post mentions The National should remove the foreign buyers ban and instead, impose a non-resident buyers tax like Canada does (20% sales tax), in addition to an annual 'Vacancy Tax' if the non-resident owners don't lease it out on a long term rental agreement. Otherwise they would be buying up homes depleting the supply of houses in NZ.

A more radical approach would be to change our entire taxation system to be in aligned with Australia and the rest of the world. CGT on all speculative assets based at time of disposition of the asset. Key word is speculative or "intent for a profit" vs "principle resident home".

[thegreatestben]

On KiwiSaver, in simplicity’s report just released on Friday, 40% of its members are non-contributing.

I thought that was an interesting statistic. My partner and I are amongst the 40%

[Baa_Baa]

On KiwiSaver, in simplicity’s report just released on Friday, 40% of its members are non-contributing.

I thought that was an interesting statistic. My partner and I are amongst the 40%

I find that intriguing, as for me, KiwiSaver is just a small part of a balanced portfolio but it has a place. For example, at a minimum I can guarantee 50% return on my minimum annual deposit (not annualised, just 50% return that year) [thanks Government]. I don’t contribute when the global markets are frothy but when they’re not, i.e. over the past few years (maybe not so much just lately) I’ll put a grand in each month as the funds are buying low. I’ve a higher risk weighted spread than many would have for my age, but it’s working out ok, it’ll be a nice wind fall when it comes, just another smallish % of portfolio that in the longer term the government have funded a substantial part of. It’s just another tool you can make some $ from without stumping up too much cash.

[FTG]

.... For example, at a minimum I can guarantee 50% return on my minimum annual deposit (not annualised, just 50% return that year) [thanks Government].


it’ll be a nice wind fall when it comes, just another smallish % of portfolio that in the longer term the government have funded a substantial part of. It’s just another tool you can make some $ from without stumping up too much cash.


I'm a little disappointed, and surprised, with your thinking Baa Baa.

Yip, the headline numbers look good. A financial "no-brainer" for the punter, especially those like you, that can afford it. Why wouldn't one take advantage of such a scheme? A scheme which basically provides "free money" - giving you back some of the massive amounts of tax you have paid over the years!

But....

Lest not forget.... "Government" in this context is actually fellow taxpayers. This KS taxpayer contribution is yet another royal example of the morally bankrupt middle-class welfare system that reigns in NZ. This circular (and expensive!)) wealth redistribution system is slowly, but surely contributing to the decline of NZ Inc's 'societal well-being' (& financial) Balance Sheet.

Yet sadly, many folk still scratch their heads, naively wondering why NZ's position has, and will to continue to deteriorate. Biggest 'Pacific Island/Banana Republic" in the Sth Pacific, anyone?

Will National, let alone any of the other political party's, have the courage & political will to overhaul this system and eliminate such stupidity? Highly doubt it.

[iceman]

I find that intriguing, as for me, KiwiSaver is just a small part of a balanced portfolio but it has a place. For example, at a minimum I can guarantee 50% return on my minimum annual deposit (not annualised, just 50% return that year) [thanks Government]. I don’t contribute when the global markets are frothy but when they’re not, i.e. over the past few years (maybe not so much just lately) I’ll put a grand in each month as the funds are buying low. I’ve a higher risk weighted spread than many would have for my age, but it’s working out ok, it’ll be a nice wind fall when it comes, just another smallish % of portfolio that in the longer term the government have funded a substantial part of. It’s just another tool you can make some $ from without stumping up too much cash.

I agree with you. SBW, while making valid points, is overthinking Kiwisaver. My family & I, are contributing just enough every single month to get a guaranteed 50% return.
All good in our household 👍

[Logen Ninefingers]

I should say, I'm a little disappointed, and surprised, with your thinking Baa Baa.

Yip, the headline numbers look good. A financial "no-brainer" for the punter, especially those like you, that can afford it. Why wouldn't one take advantage of such a scheme? A scheme which basically provides "free money" - giving you back some of the massive amounts of tax you have paid over the years!

But....

Lest not forget.... "Government" in this context is actually fellow taxpayers. This KS taxpayer contribution is yet another royal example of the morally bankrupt middle-class welfare system that reigns in NZ. This circular (and expensive!)) wealth redistribution system is slowly, but surely contributing to the worsening of NZ Inc's 'societal well-being' (& financial) Balance Sheet.

Yet sadly, many folk still scratch their heads, naively wondering why NZ's position has, and will to continue to deteriorate. Biggest 'Pacific Island/Banana Republic" in the Sth Pacific anyone?

Will National, let alone any of the other political party's, have the courage & political will to overhaul this system and eliminate such stupidity? Highly doubt it.

I guess most people would believe that they have an obligation to themselves & their nearest and dearest to improve their lives, and if some of what is being thrown their way comes from the government (taxpayer) then so be it. Plus they figure that many ‘undeserving’ people have their snouts in the trough, whereas “I work hard” and “I pay my taxes”, so therefore shouldn’t I be entitled to “get some back”? That’s the rationale used anyway, plus we are taught to ‘never look a gift horse in the mouth’.

Of course, the government may give with one hand but if you have got money they are taking with the other. You have to laugh when told you can get 6% on a term deposit at the bank, when - if you are on a decent wage or salary - the government will help themselves to 30% of that with the insidious ‘Resident Withholding Tax’. Quite why people should have to pay a tax which is higher than GST simply because they choose to save their money is a real head-scratcher. We are told NZ’s savings rates are low & therefore you would think that saving is something that should be encouraged, but it still does not dissuade the state tax collector from swiping some more of any nest-egg you try to put together.

[Bjauck]

I should say, I'm a little disappointed, and surprised, with your thinking Baa Baa.

Yip, the headline numbers look good. A financial "no-brainer" for the punter, especially those like you, that can afford it. Why wouldn't one take advantage of such a scheme? A scheme which basically provides "free money" - giving you back some of the massive amounts of tax you have paid over the years!

But....

Lest not forget.... "Government" in this context is actually fellow taxpayers. This KS taxpayer contribution is yet another royal example of the morally bankrupt middle-class welfare system that reigns in NZ. This circular (and expensive!)) wealth redistribution system is slowly, but surely contributing to the worsening of NZ Inc's 'societal well-being' (& financial) Balance Sheet.

Yet sadly, many folk still scratch their heads, naively wondering why NZ's position has, and will to continue to deteriorate. Biggest 'Pacific Island/Banana Republic" in the Sth Pacific anyone?

Will National, let alone any of the other political party's, have the courage & political will to overhaul this system and eliminate such stupidity? Highly doubt it.

The NZ government may well contribute $521 to a minimum $1042 annual contribution. However it taxes the income derived from the total balance in KiwiSaver. Also in other OECD nations the pension contributions are usually not made from taxed income. So in effect about $1563 gross was needed to be provide the $1042 kiwisaver contribution.

The middle and upper class welfare comes from “tax efficient” home ownership (for those that can afford it) and the lack of gift duties, death duties, stamp duties, and a general capital gains tax. The NZ tax base is narrow and regressive.

[Panda-NZ-]

The middle and upper class welfare comes from “tax efficient” home ownership (for those that can afford it) and the lack of gift duties, death duties, stamp duties, and a general capital gains tax. The NZ tax base is narrow and regressive.

Given how regressive overall our tax system is, the middle class are funding their own welfare.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Given how regressive overall our tax system is, the middle class are funding their own welfare.

We already have a Wealth Tax here, and it’s called GST.
Go to your local Volvo dealership, check out the price of the cars, then figure how much 15% of that is, then consider who is buying these cars. Then extrapolate that across every luxury or new European car sold on NZ. Every imported leather couch. Every bottle of high-end champagne. Every yacht. Poor people aren’t buying these goods. 15% of an item worth $100,000 is a helluva lot more than 15% of a $3 bag of apples.

[Panda-NZ-]

We already have a Wealth Tax here, and it’s called GST.
Go to your local Volvo dealership, check out the price of the cars, then figure how much 15% of that is, then consider who is buying these cars. Then extrapolate that across every luxury or new European car sold on NZ. Every imported leather couch. Every bottle of high-end champagne. Every yacht. Poor people aren’t buying these goods. 15% of an item worth $100,000 is a helluva lot more than 15% of a $3 bag of apples.

2% of $5 million is also a helluva lot more than 100% of 10k.

[FTG]

... and if some of what is being thrown their way comes from the government (taxpayer) then so be it. Plus they figure that many ‘undeserving’ people have their snouts in the trough, whereas “I work hard” and “I pay my taxes”, so therefore shouldn’t I be entitled to “get some back”?

Indeed. I guess anything can be justified. But of course those justifications make it no more morally robust?

I suspect for a minority, these sorts of middle/upper-class welfare structures present a minor moral dilemma. However, most will elect to stay in the 'blissful ignoramus camp' and instead be attracted to the sweet chocolate coating of what's on offer from the State (taxpayer funded) trough. Thinking that they can somehow avoid eating the rancid nut inside and instead pass it on to future generations to swallow.

National, if elected in some form, should simply remove 'Govt.' funding of KS contributions. The country can ill-afford the billions of taxpayer $'s thrown into the pot. Especially whilst, now, over 6% of total tax revenue is spent on just servicing Govt (read taxpayer) debt.

[Baa_Baa]

So in effect about $1563 gross was needed to be provide the $1042 kiwisaver contribution.

So in effect it (the minimum individual contribution to obtain the full government contribution) is just a tax return, enabling a tax free capital investment.

[fungus pudding]

We already have a Wealth Tax here, and it’s called GST.
Go to your local Volvo dealership, check out the price of the cars, then figure how much 15% of that is, then consider who is buying these cars. Then extrapolate that across every luxury or new European car sold on NZ. Every imported leather couch. Every bottle of high-end champagne. Every yacht. Poor people aren’t buying these goods. 15% of an item worth $100,000 is a helluva lot more than 15% of a $3 bag of apples.

GST is a consumption tax - and has nothing to do with wealth. NZ does not have a wealth tax. Fortunately we no longer even have death duties (which was the closest we ever had to a wealth tax.)

[Logen Ninefingers]

GST is a consumption tax - and has nothing to do with wealth. NZ does not have a wealth tax. Fortunately we no longer even have death duties (which was the closest we ever had to a wealth tax.)

When wealthy people are 100% the buyers of high value goods, and paying a 15% tax on each purchase….that tax becomes - to all intents and purposes - a ‘consumption tax on wealthy people’.

[Logen Ninefingers]

GST is a consumption tax - and has nothing to do with wealth. NZ does not have a wealth tax. Fortunately we no longer even have death duties (which was the closest we ever had to a wealth tax.)

Hipkins has ruled out a ‘wealth tax’. Death duties, inheritance tax, land tax….presumably he can bring them in if he gets back into power.

[fungus pudding]

When wealthy people are 100% the buyers of high value goods, and paying a 15% tax on each purchase….that tax becomes - to all intents and purposes - a ‘consumption tax on wealthy people’.

Please yourself, but you won't find a tax accountant in the country who classes gst as 'a wealth tax'.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Please yourself, but you won't find a tax accountant in the country who classes gst as 'a wealth tax'.

I couldn't care less what a 'tax accountant' has to say on the matter, GST on high end goods is effectively a wealth tax because only wealthy people are paying it. Let me know when a poor person buys any of the cars from any of the dealers in the below links -

https://www.ebbettprestigetauranga.co.nz/brand/land-rover

https://www.archibaldandshorter.co.nz/volvo-range

https://www.continentalcars.co.nz/

https://www.giltrap.com/find-a-dealer/giltrap-porsche

[777]

Logen, before GST, tax on imported cars was probably higher than the GST rate. GST replaced all sales taxes at the time. fungus's opinion is correct, no way can you call a consumption tax a wealth tax.

[Daytr]

Please yourself, but you won't find a tax accountant in the country who classes gst as 'a wealth tax'.

What ludicrous logic by Logen Ninefingers.
And up is down and left is right.
How can this poster be taken seriously.

But hey, let's use the flawed logic and get rid of GST as it's just hurting the wealthy too much and replace it with a CGT.