National - FFS!

[Azz]

So back on ignore you go

Are you able to ignore yourself?

[Logen Ninefingers]

What ludicrous logic by Logen Ninefingers.
And up is down and left is right.
How can this poster be taken seriously.

But hey, let's use the flawed logic and get rid of GST as it's just hurting the wealthy too much and replace it with a CGT.

I never said we should get rid of GST. Far from it. Your own personal enmity towards me is now leading you to making things up on the fly.

Yeah, GST on food and petrol and what not, everyone’s paying it.
I’ve pointed out that GST on luxury and big ticket items is essentially a tax paid only by wealthy people.
If that causes anyone to blow a fuse or experience extreme cognitive dissonance, it’s not my problem.

[Panda-NZ-]

But hey, let's use the flawed logic and get rid of GST as it's just hurting the wealthy too much and replace it with a CGT.

Good plan. It’s time to end the inhumane and brutal policy agenda of being charged 15k on my lambourghi.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Good plan. It’s time to end the inhumane and brutal policy agenda of being charged 15k on my lambourghi.

Only problem is, I never said we should get rid of GST.

[Bjauck]

So in effect it (the minimum individual contribution to obtain the full government contribution) is just a tax return, enabling a tax free capital investment.
Exactly. Any contributions over that amount are taxed. So for the middle class and upper class there is little incentive to treat KiwiSaver as a serious pension scheme. For that the tax efficiency remains in leveraged home ownership and long term investor real estate with the expectation of untaxed capital gains.

[Bjauck]

When wealthy people are 100% the buyers of high value goods, and paying a 15% tax on each purchase….that tax becomes - to all intents and purposes - a ‘consumption tax on wealthy people’.
The wealthy probably purchase way more real estate and shares, which incur neither gst nor stamp duties in NZ except insofar as they may pay gst on broker fees.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The wealthy probably purchase way more real estate and shares, which incur neither gst nor stamp duties in NZ except insofar as they may pay gst on broker fees.

Kind of beside the point, but ok.

[Bjauck]

Kind of beside the point, but ok.
Always nice to know that the wealthy can avoid the “wealth tax” of gst by buying real state, which is where much of NZ’s “wealth” resides!

[Daytr]

I never said we should get rid of GST. Far from it. Your own personal enmity towards me is now leading you to making things up on the fly.

Yeah, GST on food and petrol and what not, everyone’s paying it.
I’ve pointed out that GST on luxury and big ticket items is essentially a tax paid only by wealthy people.
If that causes anyone to blow a fuse or experience extreme cognitive dissonance, it’s not my problem.

Not only is your logic flawed, but so is your reading ability. I didn't say you did say it.
It was just an extension of your flawed logic.
I really don't think about you at all.

[fungus pudding]

Always nice to know that the wealthy can avoid the “wealth tax” of gst by buying real state, which is where much of NZ’s “wealth” resides!

The gst on any earning assett can be claimed back by a registered person so in effect real estate has no gst advantage.
(Ths is simply because of the necessarily large amounts with real estate being debits and credits which acheive nothing and would make financing transactions more difficult.)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Always nice to know that the wealthy can avoid the “wealth tax” of gst by buying real state, which is where much of NZ’s “wealth” resides!

If you only buy real estate and shares, at what point do you ever get to enjoy the fruits of all your wealth? You can’t eat, drink, sail, or drive shares. At the point where you want to turn some of your wealth into a brand new Volvo, or a sumptuous lunch at a 5 star restaurant, or a brand new sailing boat - that’s when the state clips the ticket to the tune of 15%. And if the wealthy aren’t purchasing these things, then I guess we’ll have to pretend that there are no marinas in the ‘City of Sails’ and no prestige European car dealerships about the place either.

Goodness me, what a hornets nest has been stirred up simply by pointing out some obvious facts.

[Bjauck]

If you only buy real estate and shares, at what point do you ever get to enjoy the fruits of all your wealth? You can’t eat, drink, sail, or drive shares. At the point where you want to turn some of your wealth into a brand new Volvo, or a sumptuous lunch at a 5 star restaurant, or a brand new sailing boat - that’s when the state clips the ticket to the tune of 15%. And if the wealthy aren’t purchasing these things, then I guess we’ll have to pretend that there are no marinas in the ‘City of Sails’ and no prestige European car dealerships about the place either.

Goodness me, what a hornets nest has been stirred up simply by pointing out some obvious facts. Your facts were opinions? You can walk around your mansion and gardens while others can enjoy flats and have no option but to pay GST immediately on every drop of after-tax income.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You can walk around your mansion and gardens while others can enjoy one room flats and have no option but to pay GST immediately on every drop of income.

‘GST immediately on every drop of income’? Lol. Turn it up, you’re thinking of PAYE.

Again, if you are a wealthy person wanting to do anything besides ‘walk around your mansion and gardens’ then at the point where you want to turn some of your wealth into a brand new Volvo, or a sumptuous lunch at a 5 star restaurant, or a brand new sailing boat - that’s when the state clips the ticket to the tune of 15%. And - like I said in my previous post - if the wealthy aren’t purchasing these things, then I guess we’ll have to pretend that there are no marinas in the ‘City of Sails’ and no prestige European car dealerships about the place either.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Your facts were opinions?

No. Facts are facts.

[Bjauck]

‘GST immediately on every drop of income’? Lol. Turn it up, you’re thinking of PAYE.

Again, if you are a wealthy person wanting to do anything besides ‘walk around your mansion and gardens’ then at the point where you want to turn some of your wealth into a brand new Volvo, or a sumptuous lunch at a 5 star restaurant, or a brand new sailing boat - that’s when the state clips the ticket to the tune of 15%. And - like I said in my previous post - if the wealthy aren’t purchasing these things, then I guess we’ll have to pretend that there are no marinas in the ‘City of Sails’ and no prestige European car dealerships about the place either. That is true they cannot avoid paye and then gst, by purchasing assets.

In my experience many wealthy folk accumulate their real estate portfolio etc. on the back of frugality and a less ostentatious consumer lifestyle. And yep they often enjoys the fruits of their wealth by being homebodies without getting a Lambo or going to St Moritz! Being wealthy of course gives you more choice as to how much and when the state “clips the gst ticket”.

[Logen Ninefingers]

That is true they cannot avoid paye and then gst, by purchasing assets.

In my experience many wealthy folk accumulate their real estate portfolio etc. on the back of frugality and a less ostentatious consumer lifestyle. And yep they often enjoys the fruits of their wealth by being homebodies without getting a Lambo or going to St Moritz! Being wealthy of course gives you more choice as to how much and when the state “clips the gst ticket”.

Well if you do go and buy ‘a Lambo’ you’ll be a wealthy person and you’ll pay 15% GST (consumption tax) when you do so. Waiting for them to get cheaper isn’t a viable strategy, and if you go ahead and make the purchase there is no way you can avoid this tax.

‘Both the Urus S and Urus Performante are available for sale in New Zealand now, with the S starting at $395,000+orc while the Performante carries a $50,000 premium.’

Someone is buying ‘lambo’s’, someone wealthy. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be offered for sale here.

[Azz]

You can walk around your mansion and gardens

And pay the council wealth tax.

[Logen Ninefingers]

And pay the council wealth tax.

Good point. Rates have been going up at an exponential rate & it’ll be the same next year and the year after….

[Getty]

Good plan. It’s time to end the inhumane and brutal policy agenda of being charged 15k on my lambourghi.

Very rare brand that Lambourghi.

Fiat Panda is much more common.

I may get a Lamborghini.

[Bjauck]

And pay the council wealth tax. Services that provide your property with much of its value should be free? My rates contain a significant uniform general charge too.

[Bjauck]

Very rare brand that Lambourghi.

Fiat Panda is much more common.

I may get a Lamborghini.
UK police used to go on patrol in pandas. Probably Morris rather than Fiat!

[Panda-NZ-]

When’s National going to release their tax cuts, the second edition.

[Balance]

Hope to see National do some billborads like these soon as Hipkins get more desperate and more personal :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1691612681811-D9LMARSVE48IZHOKQCOA/Organ+grinders.jpg?format=500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1692825766225-T6Z4EH6C5584E47R8N0T/Lame+Duck.jpg?format=500w

[Logen Ninefingers]

When’s National going to release their tax cuts, the second edition.

We've already seem Labour's tax cuts: GST coming off certain items.

[justakiwi]

So National's new catchphrase is "squeezed middle", and they seriously believe an extra $20/fortnight, for a family, is meaningful "tax relief." I am trying hard to keep an open mind here, as some of what they are announcing, I do agree with, but I think they are seriously out of touch with the realities many Kiwis are facing right now.

National appears to have zero concern for/interest in, those Kiwis who do not fall into the "squeezed middle" category. Especially those who are single, or have no children in their care. And, no, I am not just talking about myself.

I will be watching future announcements with interest.

[thegreatestben]

Not a national voter but balance up the money in hand vs the reduction in costs over all. I hear them when they are saying it's about making the environment in which we all live in better than it currently is. We all want to see more opportunity and prosperity and the conditions need to be right to allow that to flourish.

I 100% agree with Luxon's point that the focus has been too great on amount of spending as a measure of performance. Show me the outcomes!
I'd happily pay more tax if I thought or could see it was being spent well, and don't read that as well meaning selfishly for me.

I'd like to see it invested well in health, aged care, child care, education and so on... none of those particularly benefit me directly
(ok aged care yes as an OCA investor) but I want to see NZ being a place people are able to feel positive to live in. Even if they don't have a lot today, we should all feel like it's possible to do better.

Too few of us are saying that and after 6 years of Labour it's hard not to see where the blame for a lot of this lies.

[iceman]

So National's new catchphrase is "squeezed middle", and they seriously believe an extra $20/fortnight, for a family, is meaningful "tax relief." I am trying hard to keep an open mind here, as some of what they are announcing, I do agree with, but I think they are seriously out of touch with the realities many Kiwis are facing right now.

National appears to have zero concern for/interest in, those Kiwis who do not fall into the "squeezed middle" category. Especially those who are single, or have no children in their care. And, no, I am not just talking about myself.

I will be watching future announcements with interest.

I have a different view after listening to National's Leadership team. I think they've got it pretty much right with this. They are unashamedly targeting the "squeezed middle" ( a boring term already) with meaningful and fully costed tax relief that is long overdue. Furthermore, the fuel price reduction and slowing or reversing of rental costs will give the average family a lot more than the $ 40-50 per fortnight they get from the tax adjustments alone.
This is the first announcement I have seen from National at this early stage of the election campaign that I like a lot.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So National's new catchphrase is "squeezed middle", and they seriously believe an extra $20/fortnight, for a family, is meaningful "tax relief." I am trying hard to keep an open mind here, as some of what they are announcing, I do agree with, but I think they are seriously out of touch with the realities many Kiwis are facing right now.

National appears to have zero concern for/interest in, those Kiwis who do not fall into the "squeezed middle" category. Especially those who are single, or have no children in their care. And, no, I am not just talking about myself.

I will be watching future announcements with interest.

I watched the unveiling of the tax policy and heard various amounts given as to much people in the ‘squeezed middle’ would get by way of tax relief. The very lowest figure mentioned was ‘$20 a fortnight’, other amounts mentioned were multiples of that. The fact that you put forward the lowest figure out of all of them tells me that your mind is very much closed, and it will be the same with many of the Labourites and chardonnay quaffers that post here: we will have a busy day of pooh-poohing and attempted discrediting no doubt. It was inevitable.

[justakiwi]

I think any hope of rents reducing, is pie in the sky fantasy. Best we can hope for there, is a slowing of rent increases. The vast majority of landlords are unlikely to give any consideration to passing the savings onto tenants.

Fuel? Well, we all know how that goes. The price of fuel is impacted by many other things, not just govt fuel tax. So while reducing the tax is helpful, it by no means guarantees that we will pay less for our fuel over time.

Besides which, none of this comes into place until July next year (correct me if I'm wrong) - so not going to relieve the pressure for anyone, until then.


Furthermore, the fuel price reduction and slowing or reversing of rental costs will give the average family a lot more than the $ 40-50 per fortnight they get from the tax adjustments alone.

[iceman]

I think any hope of rents reducing, is pie in the sky fantasy. Best we can hope for there, is a slowing of rent increases. The vast majority of landlords are unlikely to give any consideration to passing the savings onto tenants.

Fuel? Well, we all know how that goes. The price of fuel is impacted by many other things, not just govt fuel tax. So while reducing the tax is helpful, it by no means guarantees that we will pay less for our fuel over time.

Besides which, none of this comes into place until July next year (correct me if I'm wrong) - so not going to relieve the pressure for anyone, until then.

Of course it doesn't guarantee that rents and fuel costs will go down. But it's highly likely they will both be lower than they would under current settings. I as a small landlord with a great longterm (single mother) tenant have not raised rents to recover the elimination of normal accounting of interest payments. I had recently warned my tenant that I would have to raise the rent soon to recover this increased cost. I am hopeful that this policy change, if implemented, will make it possible for me to not increase rents for a while yet.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think any hope of rents reducing, is pie in the sky fantasy. Best we can hope for there, is a slowing of rent increases. The vast majority of landlords are unlikely to give any consideration to passing the savings onto tenants.

Fuel? Well, we all know how that goes. The price of fuel is impacted by many other things, not just govt fuel tax. So while reducing the tax is helpful, it by no means guarantees that we will pay less for our fuel over time.

Besides which, none of this comes into place until July next year (correct me if I'm wrong) - so not going to relieve the pressure for anyone, until then.

It’s all very well pooh-poohing National’s package & rolling out the old ‘landlords as Ebenezer Scrooge’ trope, but perhaps you could tell us what the party you support will be running with this election?

[thegreatestben]

I've got two rentals and I'm currently running them at a loss of 10k each this year. If I head up to 7% plus when my lending renews in April 2024 I'll be looking at a 30k loss on each. I am already at what I feel is top of the market. I renewed one at $795 a week recently, the other we approached the existing tenant to broach the idea of an increase and they advised they were already considering to end their stay with us as the current rent ($750) is getting tight for them.

They are great tenants and we want them to stay so we left it as is and let it go periodic. The house they are in is superior to the one I'm getting more rent for as well.

If market conditions improve and my lending costs come down, I definitely would consider it for great tenants. I have shown them my books and they know I'm running a loss, rates and insurance have also gone up quite a bit recently so it seems pretty unlikely I could lower however.

Also just to try and paint the picture of some landlords not being evil, the tenants in the front house paying $795 a week asked about the middle (better) house and I said it could be coming up in the near future. They asked if they could move into that one if it does become available with no other changes to the existing lease and I said yes. In writing.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I've got two rentals and I'm currently running them at a loss of 10k each this year. If I head up to 7% plus when my lending renews in April 2024 I'll be looking at a 30k loss on each. I am already at what I feel is top of the market. I renewed one at $795 a week recently, the other we approached the existing tenant to broach the idea of an increase and they advised they were already considering to end their stay with us as the current rent ($750) is getting tight for them.

They are great tenants and we want them to stay so we left it as is and let it go periodic. The house they are in is superior to the one I'm getting more rent for as well.

If market conditions improve and my lending costs come down, I definitely would consider it for great tenants. I have shown them my books and they know I'm running a loss, rates and insurance have also gone up quite a bit recently so it seems pretty unlikely I could lower however.

Also just to try and paint the picture of some landlords not being evil, the tenants in the front house paying $795 a week asked about the middle (better) house and I said it could be coming up in the near future. They asked if they could move into that one if it does become available with no other changes to the existing lease and I said yes. In writing.

Your personal testimony shows your humanity and the complexity of the situation. You have very real responsibilities and financial concerns which no doubt cause you stress and worry and require careful management. Unfortunately the Left are raised on some pretty basic tropes where all nuance and reality are discarded and all landlords, business owners, and those disparaged as ‘wealthy’ are reduced to a caricature: privileged, selfish, greedy, soulless exploiters whose only motivation is a life of comfort at the expense of their fellow man.

[justakiwi]

Do me a favour and just put me on ignore. I will do the same. You have selective hearing with regards to my posts and choose to misinterpret much of what I say. I no longer have the energy or desire to continually correct you.


It’s all very well pooh-poohing National’s package & rolling out the old ‘landlords as Ebenezer Scrooge’ trope, but perhaps you could tell us what the party you support will be running with this election?

[Baa_Baa]

I've got two rentals and I'm currently running them at a loss of 10k each this year. If I head up to 7% plus when my lending renews in April 2024 I'll be looking at a 30k loss on each. [...]

What is the point or purpose of being a landlord if you're making losses on your investments? Why are you not selling the properties and reinvesting in something that does earn you an income?

[Balance]

It’s all very well pooh-poohing National’s package & rolling out the old ‘landlords as Ebenezer Scrooge’ trope, but perhaps you could tell us what the party you support will be running with this election?

Unfortunately too many out there are still looking for a spin & BS artist to emerge and make huge promises to fix all the crises - just like Cindy did 6 years ago.

Still have not learnt their lesson.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So National's new catchphrase is "squeezed middle", and they seriously believe an extra $20/fortnight, for a family, is meaningful "tax relief." I am trying hard to keep an open mind here, as some of what they are announcing, I do agree with, but I think they are seriously out of touch with the realities many Kiwis are facing right now.

National appears to have zero concern for/interest in, those Kiwis who do not fall into the "squeezed middle" category. Especially those who are single, or have no children in their care. And, no, I am not just talking about myself.

I will be watching future announcements with interest.

‘So National's new catchphrase is "squeezed middle", and they seriously believe an extra $20/fortnight, for a family, is meaningful "tax relief." I am trying hard to keep an open mind here,’

If you were ‘trying to keep an open mind’ then you wouldn’t have posted that families will get an extra $20/fortnight.

The package -

Incomes
————
A family with children earning the average household income of $120,000 will be $250 a fortnight better off.

An average income child-free household up to $100 a fortnight better off.

Full-time minimum-wage workers get a $20 boost to their fortnightly incomes, and paying lower rates of tax on extra hours worked.

Anyone earning over $78,100 gets the same tax cut of $40 a fortnight.

A superannuitant couple will get up to $26 a fortnight more.

Tax Cuts/Credits
————————
17.5% threshold moves from $14,000 to $15,600.

30% rate moves from $48,000 to $53,500.

33% rate moves from $70,000 to $78,100.

Extend eligibility for Independent Earner Tax Credit from $48,000 maximum income to $70,000.

Previously announced childcare tax credit of up to $150 a fortnight for 25% of costs of early childhood education for low and middle income families.

Increase WFF in-work tax credit by $25 a week.

Canceled taxes
———————
Fully restore interest deductibility for rental properties.

Bring the brightline test back to two years.

Cancel Labour’s planned fuel tax hikes which would add 12 cents per litre of petrol, or $8 for a full tank.

Remove the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax which adds 11.5 cents per litre of petrol.

Cancel Labour’s new App Tax.

[dobby41]

I have a different view after listening to National's Leadership team. I think they've got it pretty much right with this. They are unashamedly targeting the "squeezed middle" ( a boring term already) with meaningful and fully costed tax relief that is long overdue. Furthermore, the fuel price reduction and slowing or reversing of rental costs will give the average family a lot more than the $ 40-50 per fortnight they get from the tax adjustments alone.
This is the first announcement I have seen from National at this early stage of the election campaign that I like a lot.

Fully costed?
They say that they'll get $8.4Bil from cost savings but don't say where most will come from (they have a few figures but not $8.4B worth).
Much like them harping on about billions in wasteful spending but only ever coming up with a few hundred million.

[thegreatestben]

What is the point or purpose of being a landlord if you're making losses on your investments? Why are you not selling the properties and reinvesting in something that does earn you an income?

I developed/built them.
I am in it for the long term, or was. I am lucky to live in the area I grew up in, I worked for Kiwibuild for almost 4 years and during that time I learnt a lot from my peers but also saw a lot of housing development I didn't think would be good for social outcomes in years to come.

I built in a way I thought was a useful contribution and made better use of the largely underutilised land I had (70m² footprint house on 645m2). I shifted the original dwelling back and added 2x more stand alone, 3 bed, 2 bath w garage homes which also look like the original house. I put a new roof on mine too and painted it so they are all the same.

I ran through all the costings before hand and modelled what it would look like at interest rates as high as 6 - 6.5% which was the peak of rates while I've been a homeowner. Wasn't going to get rich quick and I manage them myself. We were looking alright but costs went up, the project went over budget (I did put a bit of money into improving our personal home but I also did alot of the work myself). I've ended up borrowing about 300k more than I had planned, but I didn't compromise on materials or outcomes.

In fact we actually turned down unconditional offers from 3x developers (williams, wolfbrook and faisandier) with the best offer being $1.2m, I'd already sunk 100k out of my own pocket (not the banks) and had my building and resource consents signed off. The developers would have stuck an ugly, low quality, high density here instead.

I am getting to the point of considering selling, but at this stage if we sold anything it would be our personal home. We've figured we can clear out enough debt by doing that we'd have more cashflow by renting, cutting my rates and insurance bills, I can get rid of 2 out of 3 vehicles I own and we can be closer to work in the wellington cbd.

Or head to Australia again.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Fully costed?
They say that they'll get $8.4Bil from cost savings but don't say where most will come from (they have a few figures but not $8.4B worth).
Much like them harping on about billions in wasteful spending but only ever coming up with a few hundred million.

‘Much like them harping on about billions in wasteful spending but only ever coming up with a few hundred million.’

————

Yet ‘Spread your legs’ Chipkins and ‘giant fiscal hole’ Robbo have been saying for months that no cuts can be made without impacting frontline services….they with an embarrassing PREFU looming they suddenly find $4 billion of cuts!!!!

I can’t believe the Labour faithful allow themselves to let the likes of Chipkins and Robbo pull the wool over their eyes time and time again.

[Panda-NZ-]

What's this fortnight nonsense, they think we're in Australia?

[Logen Ninefingers]

What's this fortnight nonsense, they think we're in Australia?

Many people get paid fortnightly. I’ve always been paid either monthly or fortnightly in any job I’ve worked, who gets paid weekly these days?

Is that really the best whinge you could come up with?

[Panda-NZ-]

Many people get paid fortnightly. I’ve always been paid either monthly or fortnightly in any job I’ve worked, who gets paid weekly these days?

Is that really the best whinge you could come up with?

I thought your highest priority was the budget?

But sadly here you are defending the most prolifigate tax cut plan in 30 years

[justakiwi]

I am sure your tenant appreciates your willingness to be a supportive landlord. A lot of landlords automatically refuse to rent to single mothers, without ever giving them the opportunity to prove their reliability and trustworthiness. There is still a lot of negative stigma attached to solo motherhood unfortunately.


Of course it doesn't guarantee that rents and fuel costs will go down. But it's highly likely they will both be lower than they would under current settings. I as a small landlord with a great longterm (single mother) tenant have not raised rents to recover the elimination of normal accounting of interest payments. I had recently warned my tenant that I would have to raise the rent soon to recover this increased cost. I am hopeful that this policy change, if implemented, will make it possible for me to not increase rents for a while yet.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I thought your highest priority was the budget?

But sadly here you are defending the most prolifigate tax cut plan in 30 years

‘Profligate’ = the extremely reckless spending of New Zealand’s worst ever Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson.

[Panda-NZ-]

‘Profligate’ = the extremely reckless spending of New Zealand’s worst ever Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson.

Nice attempt to change the subject... the solution to prolifigacy is... more of it?

[Panda-NZ-]

The message National has sent to pensioners is... here's 11 bucks... oh and we're raising the retirement age and Act wants to cut your base rate too.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The message National has sent to pensioners is... here's 11 bucks... oh and we're raising the retirement age and Act wants to cut your base rate too.

So either the National policy is ‘profligate’, or derided as being too little. Make up your mind.

If you want to talk about the policies of potential coalition partners, perhaps go and have a look at the radical policies of the Greens and Te Pati Maori. You may not have any qualms about a LABGREETEPATI government taking power, but I do.

It’ll be great when this election is behind us and in the rear view mirror. Labour and Robertson aren’t some ultimate source of truth and they don’t have a God given right to be in power either. The sight of Chipkins lying his ass off by saying that ‘the Maori Party’ has not changed at all since 2008 is the standard disingenuous behaviour I expect from people on the Left.

[Panda-NZ-]

The online gambling tax seems so specific... must be a luxon captain's call.

Let's tax those sinners.

[thegreatestben]

more specific than removing GST on fruit and veg?

[Panda-NZ-]

That's easy to implement compared to an online gambling tax.

And what about in-person gambling.

[fungus pudding]

more specific than removing GST on fruit and veg?

That's the dopiest policy ever proposed.

[Panda-NZ-]

That's the dopiest policy ever proposed.

So much so that nearly every other country exempts food from sales tax.

[nztx]

So much so that nearly every other country exempts food from sales tax.


After all the backwards & forwards by Labour on Fruities & Veges - it take a special kind of stupid for anyone
with half a clue to want to support the clueless Comrades, after the past 6 years dismal performance ;)


When Robbo's Election Year Showtime budget sees a mere empty sack with a few low value freebies trotted out then the really stupid still supporting the very lame cause & poor excuses become very visible ;)

[Panda-NZ-]

After all the backwards & forwards by Labour on Fruities & Veges - it take a special kind of stupid for anyone
with half a clue to want to support the clueless Comrades, after the past 6 years dismal performance ;)

I'm simply comparing a relatively simple exemption from GST, which is a tax already in place vs a new complex and byzantine online gambling tax.

[nztx]

I'm simply comparing a relatively simple exemption from GST, vs an incredibly complex online gambling tax.

Sorry - your Lab/Green mates have proven long since that even the simple things are lost on them & impossible without resulting in a further large fu%k-up ;)

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-christopher-luxon-attack-ad-accidentally-launched-early/3LTUR5XP3ZFFXP5KYFUD2RVDOQ/

Election 2023: Christopher Luxon attack ad accidentally launched early



An attack ad campaign targeting National Party leader Christopher Luxon has accidentally been launched early.

A digital billboard spotted in Auckland this morning featured a black and white image of Luxon with the slogan “Out of touch. Too much risk”.

It was on the corner of Sandringham Rd and St Lukes Rd and has since been removed.

The billboard said it was authorised by Richard Wagstaff who is the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions [NZCTU] president.



The Labour affiliated CTU Union dumb bells cant even get their launch out without making a fu%k-up of it ;)

In true Labour style when the residual excuses for Labour Losers who haven't been stabbed or kicked out of Govt - have nothing to offer most Kiwi's, then get the Left aligned CTU Unions to attack the leader of the opposition party ;)

A sure sign that Labour & Chumpkins are indeed headed towards the mother of all large avalanches OUT of power ;)

[jonu]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-christopher-luxon-attack-ad-accidentally-launched-early/3LTUR5XP3ZFFXP5KYFUD2RVDOQ/

Election 2023: Christopher Luxon attack ad accidentally launched early





The Labour affiliated CTU Union dumb bells cant even get their launch out without making a fu%k-up of it ;)

In true Labour style when the residual excuses for Labour Losers who haven't been stabbed or kicked out of Govt - have nothing to offer most Kiwi's, then get the Left aligned CTU Unions to attack the leader of the opposition party ;)

A sure sign that Labour are indeed headed towards the mother of all large avalanches OUT of power ;)

Luxon out of touch?

I would have thought the party that had lost more than 40% of its voter base (according to pollsters) since the last election was the one out of touch! That would be the Chipster, aided and abetted by none other than his predecessor in their ruinous reign. From rockstar economy to 159th place in GDP growth. Cindy...you did this! Chippy, you helped her. Grant, you couldn't help yourself!

[Panda-NZ-]

Sad that they don't have enough money to run those ads.

Millions are pouring into Nat/Act coffers with the other parties getting scraps (though they aren't bought and paid for at least).

[nztx]

Luxon out of touch?

I would have thought the party that had lost more than 40% of its voter base (according to pollsters) since the last election was the one out of touch! That would be the Chipster, aided and abetted by none other than his predecessor in their ruinous reign. From rockstar economy to 159th place in GDP growth. Cindy...you did this! Chippy, you helped her. Grant, you couldn't help yourself!



Agreed .. The Left appear to be getting desperate on seeing that most of Kiwiland have now seen the light, and Lab/Green are destined to be kicked into the gutter, which probably should have happened last election :)

[Panda-NZ-]

Tova O'Brien comes up with an interesting idea.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300960268/tova-obrien-national-gets-the-parliament-guessing-over-how-it-will-pay-for-tax-cuts

Instead of silly online gambling taxes how about removing all of the religious tax exemptions (and the maori ones too I might add). ;)

[nztx]

Sad that they don't have enough money to run those ads.

Sad that the Unions haven't woken up to what the spiralling COL, Interest rates, Rents, Transport costs etc etc
courtesy of Labour's own incompetent policies & direction is doing to their Union members ;)

Perhaps the Unions should been more awake to their members going financially backwards on Labour Policies rather
than ignoring it and instead involving themselves in Political posturing :)

What the Parties are pulling in in donations clearly suggests that large sectors of the Country are prepared to pay good money to help see the current hopeless Govt gone for good on their recent dismal performance ;)

[nztx]

Tova O'Brien comes up with an interesting idea.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300960268/tova-obrien-national-gets-the-parliament-guessing-over-how-it-will-pay-for-tax-cuts

Instead of silly online gambling taxes how about removing all of the religious tax exemptions (and the maori ones too I might add). ;)


Lab/Green asleep at the wheel again .. 6 years on rather chasing Landlords, Dumb ideas like Tech Sector Micro Taxes, confusing themselves on Supermarkets, playing with Potholes.. or perhaps they didn't want offside with all the religious outfits & charities that would otherwise come bashing on Robbo's door for funding instead ? ;)

No Govt would want to offside with Religious Organisations - that would be like Labour well and truly signing their early exit passes on top of already abismal plummeting support levels that Lab/Green are now seeing ..

Your mates Lab/Green dug a large hole -- now they get to be made to lie in it - very simple

A large slice of NZ has become totally sick and tired of the Lab/Green blight on what was once a far more vibrant positive place and all deserve considerably better than what the current bunch of Lab/Green losers have orchestrated :)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Our Left wing media have a real cheek. The red New Zealand Herald want me to subscribe to their ‘Premium’ service for a $1 a week for the first 8 weeks, this so I can have the privilege of accessing pro-Labour cartoons by (Australian) cartoonist Rod Emmerson & columns by left wing activist Simon Wilson - who always seems to have a bee in his bonnet about NZ’s miniscule (0.17%) contribution to global emissions.

Over at Stuff they are giving plenty of oxygen to a claim that National has a $130 million dollar hole in its tax plan. Robbo’s entire financial management of this country is one gigantic fiscal hole. Labour claims their plans are always ‘fully costed’, so I guess monumental waste and an extraordinary borrowing rate are ‘fully costed’ and were always part of their plan. Well if that’s true I don’t care much for their ‘fully costed’ plan.

[Panda-NZ-]

National said they were not the party of new & higher taxes.

Then they announce a series of new taxes.

[Logen Ninefingers]

National said they were not the party of new & higher taxes.

Then they announce a series of new taxes.

Taxes on overseas buyers and overseas gambling concerns. Your heart may bleed for them, mine doesn’t.

[dobby41]

National manage to announce that they will remove the Regional Fuel Tax in Auckland because it is only used for Light Rail - wrong.
Then they say that they can do this because there is lots of money in the bank unused - wrong, it is earmarked for projects in Auckland (and not light rail) that Auckland say they need.
Brown is quite right - remove it but supply the money some other way. No mention from National of this - smoke and mirrors again.

[Logen Ninefingers]

National manage to announce that they will remove the Regional Fuel Tax in Auckland because it is only used for Light Rail - wrong.
Then they say that they can do this because there is lots of money in the bank unused - wrong, it is earmarked for projects in Auckland (and not light rail) that Auckland say they need.
Brown is quite right - remove it but supply the money some other way. No mention from National of this - smoke and mirrors again.

This cruel regional fuel tax has been on place for years and years and money languishes in a bank account while hard-working Aucklanders struggle with a ‘cost of living’ crisis. It is simply not acceptable. I don’t accept that people should have to pay extra levies just because they live in certain parts of the country. Should Hawkes Bay residents have to pay a ‘Hawkes Bay Reconstruction Tax’ simply because they live where they live? I don’t think so.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/more-than-300m-in-auckland-fuel-tax-unspent/4RSZEB7RPNH5VFZ6LVRC26UW5I/

‘More than $300m collected in Auckland Regional Fuel Tax remains unspent, nearly half of the $700m collected.

From the day the tax was brought in on July 1, 2018, to the end of March 2023, it has collected $703.4m, of that, only $375m was spent, leaving $327 unspent.

The tax was brought in by Labour to help fund ATAP commitments.

Big winners include the Eastern Busway which has spent $246m over the period, road safety improvements which spent $239.2m and the Downtown Ferry Terminal redevelopment, which spent $136m.

National’s Transport spokesman Simeon Brown said it was “a bit ridiculous that they still seem to be spending just over half of every dollar they take in”.

“Aucklanders are being fleeced by Labour’s Regional Fuel Tax which Labour imposed on Auckland, which was meant to deliver transport projects, but which almost half of it’s just simply sitting in a bank account at Auckland Council,” Brown said.’

[dobby41]

This cruel regional fuel tax has been on place for years and years and money languishes in a bank account while hard-working Aucklanders struggle with a ‘cost of living’ crisis. It is simply not acceptable. I don’t accept that people should have to pay extra levies just because they live in certain parts of the country. Should Hawkes Bay residents have to pay a ‘Hawkes Bay Reconstruction Tax’ simply because they live where they live? I don’t think so.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/more-than-300m-in-auckland-fuel-tax-unspent/4RSZEB7RPNH5VFZ6LVRC26UW5I/

‘More than $300m collected in Auckland Regional Fuel Tax remains unspent, nearly half of the $700m collected.

From the day the tax was brought in on July 1, 2018, to the end of March 2023, it has collected $703.4m, of that, only $375m was spent, leaving $327 unspent.

The tax was brought in by Labour to help fund ATAP commitments.

Big winners include the Eastern Busway which has spent $246m over the period, road safety improvements which spent $239.2m and the Downtown Ferry Terminal redevelopment, which spent $136m.

National’s Transport spokesman Simeon Brown said it was “a bit ridiculous that they still seem to be spending just over half of every dollar they take in”.

“Aucklanders are being fleeced by Labour’s Regional Fuel Tax which Labour imposed on Auckland, which was meant to deliver transport projects, but which almost half of it’s just simply sitting in a bank account at Auckland Council,” Brown said.’

National (and you) doesn't seem to understand that the money isn't spent as it is raised - that would build bits of roads.
Spend is a bit chunky.
Wayne Brown seems to think if if the RFT goes they'll be a couple of billion short for roads in Auckland.

[Logen Ninefingers]

National (and you) doesn't seem to understand that the money isn't spent as it is raised - that would build bits of roads.
Spend is a bit chunky.
Wayne Brown seems to think if if the RFT goes they'll be a couple of billion short for roads in Auckland.

Brown needs to make cuts to the bloated council staff numbers before he asks hard-working Aucklanders to pony up more $$$$.
If the left wing council won’t make necessary cuts now, then I guess taking away the ‘regional fuel tax’ boondoggle will force their hand soon enough.

[dobby41]

Brown needs to make cuts to the bloated council staff numbers before he asks hard-working Aucklanders to pony up more $$$$.
If the left wing council won’t make necessary cuts now, then I guess taking away the ‘regional fuel tax’ boondoggle will force their hand soon enough.

Maybe they just can't provide the roads that Aucklanders seem to want.
I don't live there so no problem for me.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Maybe they just can't provide the roads that Aucklanders seem to want.
I don't live there so no problem for me.

Yeah, Aucklanders want roads and they get a redeveloped ferry terminal instead. Fullers will be happy.
Time to knock the ‘regional fuel tax’ on the head.

———

‘Big winners include the Eastern Busway which has spent $246m over the period, road safety improvements which spent $239.2m, and the Downtown Ferry Terminal redevelopment, which spent $136m.’

[Blue Skies]

Just earlier this evening on ZB Drivetime, huge fish hooks discovered with the revenue National counting on from the 15% tax on foreign buyers of NZ homes over $2million, towards funding the $14.6 Billion tax cuts.

Up until the Labour govt brought in the foreign buyer ban on existing homes, buyers form China accounted for 37%, Australia 19% & I think it was Singapore 3% of all foreign purchases.

Due to existing & new trade agreements, buyers from all those countries are excluded from the tax, - so that's 60% of foreign buyers are automatically excluded from paying the 15% tax, & National want to open the door to them plus reduce the Brightline test from 10 years to 2.

There's a massive mistake in the forecast revenue, fine if you're Luxon owning 7 houses or Willis owning 4 houses, but what about Kiwi first home buyers who were really coming back into the market, they will be stuffed!

[Balance]

First home buyers cannot possibly be more stuffed than with what this clueless Labour government under Hipkins, Ardern & Robertson have done to them :

1. Record high prices for properties,

2. Bought at artificially record low interest rates,

3. Government making the housing problem into a disaster,

4. Government competing in the property market to buy homes and driving up prices even higher (refer 1).

Now all the chickens are coming home to roost with many of the first home buyers in negative equity situation while having to pay ever higher mortgage rates & interest.

So Blue Skies, spare us your Ardern BS & spin & scare mongering. Spare us your hypocrisy & crocodile tears of pretending to care for first home buyers when the facts are to the contrary.

NZers know exactly what this Labour government has done to them - nothing positive and everything negative.

[SBQ]

Just earlier this evening on ZB Drivetime, huge fish hooks discovered with the revenue National counting on from the 15% tax on foreign buyers of NZ homes over $2million, towards funding the $14.6 Billion tax cuts.

Up until the Labour govt brought in the foreign buyer ban on existing homes, buyers form China accounted for 37%, Australia 19% & I think it was Singapore 3% of all foreign purchases.

Due to existing & new trade agreements, buyers from all those countries are excluded from the tax, - so that's 60% of foreign buyers are automatically excluded from paying the 15% tax, & National want to open the door to them plus reduce the Brightline test from 10 years to 2.

There's a massive mistake in the forecast revenue, fine if you're Luxon owning 7 houses or Willis owning 4 houses, but what about Kiwi first home buyers who were really coming back into the market, they will be stuffed!

If i'm not mistaken, when Jacinda imposed the foreign buyers ban, how was she able to ban Chinese buyers from parking their laundered money in NZ houses? She did it by a stroke of pen and if you consider from China's point of view, they would welcome more of this kind of restriction as China has currency controls and prefers it's citizens to not engage in an exodus of wealth manner.

I feel Luxton could have gone harder with a tax on non-resident buyers. Recently Trudeau has imposed a 1% annual stamp duty tax on all non-residents owning residential properties in Canada. I'm also not surprised in NZ being not familiar of imposing the 15% sales tax but if Canada can do it, why can't NZ? Canada has many tax treaties with the US and China and has no issues imposing their own tax laws. Remember, it's only an issue if it disadvantages the other country and if you look at China, well I can't see how they would disagree. Oh BTW, can foreign nationals buy houses in China? Nope.

[Blue Skies]

Balance don't you get it?
When Nicolla Willis says the Labour Govt has spent all the money, how come they are at the same time offering an eye watering $14.6 Billion in tax cuts!
No prudent economic manager would do this, its wilful blindness to ignore the contradiction.

Further to this, a growing number of independent Tax & Trade experts (not the Labour govt) are saying around 60% of foreign buyers will be exempt from the Foreign Buyers Tax & there's nothing the govt will be able to do about it, its enshrined in International Law due to the deals we've signed & we're hardly going to put at risk around 1/3rd of our export market by breaking parts of existing Agreements.

Plus an independent chorus of experts (again not the labour govt) including NZ Internet Vivien Maidaborn Chief are saying the funding National is depending on from overseas Gambling operators to help fund this $14.6 Billion is not going to work either, its too easy for people to get around Geo blocking & overseas gambling operators are not going to comply with any new regulations when they don't have to.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132854873/online-experts-say-nationals-casino-crackdown-wont-work


If the economy is such bad shape as they say, you don't give away a $14.6 Billion tax cut & you don't pretend its not inflationary either.
They will never find $14.6 Billion without borrowing or increasing GST & it's irresponsible to pretend they can.


Labour's targeted $3.6 Billion in savings & reducing the debt while supporting those at the bottom is far more realistic & responsible.

[Bjauck]

National said they were not the party of new & higher taxes.

Then they announce a series of new taxes.
It’s ok though. They plan to shorten the bright line CGT. More investment diverted into inflating residential land, and even more expensive housing is just what NZ needs! Two million dollars average Auckland houses next year?

[Panda-NZ-]

Not to be outdone there's the kiwisaver withdrawal plan to pay rent or "bonds" (Logen will tell us how he prefers a term associated with slavery) to one of these landlords.

[Aaron]

I like Matthew Hooton I thought he might be right leaning considering his past but he sums National's tax policy up well in the herald this morning.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-nationals-tax-plan-is-a-cynical-con-job-matthew-hooton/ECXSZ52YNJFD7FSJA6LVJ6DOWU/

National faces probably the most incompetent Government in New Zealand’s history. Our trade, fiscal and general economic outlook is the worst since the 1984 and 1990 financial and political crises.
Jacinda Ardern quit rather than face the electoral consequences of her Government’s failure to deliver its key promises and the hubristic excesses of its Covid response.
The current account deficit for the March 2023 year - after Covid was behind us - widened to $33 billion, 8.5 per cent of GDP, up from $24b or 6.8 per cent of GDP the previous year. That’s the worst ever recorded.
In the last decade we have dropped another six places on the OECD’s productivity league tables. We now have among the worst productivity in the developed world, according to the Government’s own Productivity Commission.
In 2024, the IMF says New Zealand will be the worst-performing economy in the entire world in terms of GDP growth, except for Equatorial Guinea, a small African dictatorship on the brink of economic and social collapse.
Grant Robertson’s profligacy has made public debt material again and his fiscal deficit already appears structural.
Debt servicing is again becoming a major area of government expenditure, as it was before Ruth Richardson, Bill Birch and Michael Cullen repaid Robert Muldoon’s, Roger Douglas’ and David Caygill’s reckless borrowing.
Serious people know there are no circumstances in which tax cuts or increased handouts could be justified in the short or medium term.

Here is what some Kiwis are thinking.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/kiwis-in-squeezed-middle-say-they-ll-make-net-loss-from-national-s-tax-policy.html

"Its not enough I need more". That is what politicians have to pander to.

The bludger mentality whether it is someone too lazy to work wanting more benefit or a wealthy asset owner fighting capital gains tax, someone earning $100k or more with their hand out for national super, your average Kiwi seems to be only thinking what they can get back from everyone else's tax or ways to contribute less to the pot.

[ynot]

Balance don't you get it?
When Nicolla Willis says the Labour Govt has spent all the money, how come they are at the same time offering an eye watering $14.6 Billion in tax cuts!
No prudent economic manager would do this, its wilful blindness to ignore the contradiction.

Further to this, a growing number of independent Tax & Trade experts (not the Labour govt) are saying around 60% of foreign buyers will be exempt from the Foreign Buyers Tax & there's nothing the govt will be able to do about it, its enshrined in International Law due to the deals we've signed & we're hardly going to put at risk around 1/3rd of our export market by breaking parts of existing Agreements.

Plus an independent chorus of experts (again not the labour govt) including NZ Internet Vivien Maidaborn Chief are saying the funding National is depending on from overseas Gambling operators to help fund this $14.6 Billion is not going to work either, its too easy for people to get around Geo blocking & overseas gambling operators are not going to comply with any new regulations when they don't have to.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132854873/online-experts-say-nationals-casino-crackdown-wont-work


If the economy is such bad shape as they say, you don't give away a $14.6 Billion tax cut & you don't pretend its not inflationary either.
They will never find $14.6 Billion without borrowing or increasing GST & it's irresponsible to pretend they can.


Labour's targeted $3.6 Billion in savings & reducing the debt while supporting those at the bottom is far more realistic & responsible.
Are you admitting the economy is in bad shape ? It sure sounds like it. Why do you think it is in bad shape ? Six years of Labour possibly?

[Panda-NZ-]

Are you admitting the economy is in bad shape ? It sure sounds like it. Why do you think it is in bad shape ? Six years of Labour possibly?

They don't think an economy based on speculation, immigration and residential property is viable... naturally there will be some pain until the transition to a more productive economy.

[Logen Ninefingers]

They don't think an economy based on speculation, immigration and residential property is viable... naturally there will be some pain until the transition to a more productive economy.

Killing off farming & growing the public service like Topsy will 'transition (us) to a more productive economy'? Yeah right.
This economy is increasingly infected with a 'post work' attitude. Working is for schmucks. Go have a look at the roads in any of our major cities at any time of the day and the roads are absolutely clogged. Must be people 'working from home', working 4 days a week, 'on a course' (a golf course), or travelling to their next 'meeting'....or they are on 'jobseeker'. We are the new Greece.

Transitioning to a productive economy? 'Mate, you're dreaming'.

[Bjauck]

.....
In the last decade we have dropped another six places on the OECD’s productivity league tables. We now have among the worst productivity in the developed world, according to the Government’s own Productivity Commission..... Fundamental reform in the fiscal/investment environment is needed. Netiher Labour or National are proposing to do that.

Unfortunately I don't see how keeping the 39% top income tax rate while reducing the bright-line CGT down to two years will have anything but a further negative effect on productivity.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Balance don't you get it?
When Nicolla Willis says the Labour Govt has spent all the money, how come they are at the same time offering an eye watering $14.6 Billion in tax cuts!
No prudent economic manager would do this, its wilful blindness to ignore the contradiction.

Further to this, a growing number of independent Tax & Trade experts (not the Labour govt) are saying around 60% of foreign buyers will be exempt from the Foreign Buyers Tax & there's nothing the govt will be able to do about it, its enshrined in International Law due to the deals we've signed & we're hardly going to put at risk around 1/3rd of our export market by breaking parts of existing Agreements.

Plus an independent chorus of experts (again not the labour govt) including NZ Internet Vivien Maidaborn Chief are saying the funding National is depending on from overseas Gambling operators to help fund this $14.6 Billion is not going to work either, its too easy for people to get around Geo blocking & overseas gambling operators are not going to comply with any new regulations when they don't have to.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132854873/online-experts-say-nationals-casino-crackdown-wont-work


If the economy is such bad shape as they say, you don't give away a $14.6 Billion tax cut & you don't pretend its not inflationary either.
They will never find $14.6 Billion without borrowing or increasing GST & it's irresponsible to pretend they can.


Labour's targeted $3.6 Billion in savings & reducing the debt while supporting those at the bottom is far more realistic & responsible.

Right wing parties are up against Progressives / Social Democrats...whatever they are calling themselves these days.....whose raison d'tre is to roll out more socialism, redistribute income from 'wealthy' to 'poor' (Robin Hoodism) and re-make society. It is literally what progressivism is all about. They don't believe in capitalism, they don't care about debt, they respond to an inflation crisis by pumping more money to people that will spend it and accelerate inflation. At the end of the day these people only ever produce a drop in living standards in their endless quest (and it's the ultimate in tilting at windmills) to make everything fair.

Unsurprisingly, giving away 'free' stuff is really popular with many voters.

Faced with progressives whose entire reason for existence is to further the aims of socialism and redistribute income, right wing parties HAVE NO OTHER OPTION than to offer tax cuts. It is highly disingenuous of the left to howl with indignation whenever right wing parties find ways to offer tax cuts, because if right wing parties didn't they would lose every single election to the socialist lolly scramble merchants on the other side of the fence.

Roberston's claims to be fiscally responsible and have everything always 'fully costed' is akin to me racing out and borrowing $5 million dollars and then telling everyone it's all ok because even though I have a job that pays me an average salary I've itemised what I'll spend the $5 million on line by line and it's all 'fully costed'. I'll be spending this amount on wine, this amount on women, this amount on song, this amount on consultants, and I've set up an 'Infrastructure Fund' of $1 million for work on my house. I've then managed to find 'savings' of $50,000 from the money I've borrowed, and of course I have the 'savings' in my (borrowed) 'Infrastructure Fund'.

This country has entered a twilight zone where we have a finance minister who doles out money for RAT tests that are never used, cycle bridges that are never built, light rail that is never started, a media merger that was canned, a mega-polytech merger that was not needed.....it's all 'fully costed' folks! All this waste and non-delivery is 'fully costed'. "Oh, fully costed is it? Well that's a relief". It is beyond a joke.

[Panda-NZ-]

The party of economic management can't come up with costed policies though, and base it on dodgy gambling taxes & a foreign buyers tax which violates many international agreements.

How bad is that esp when they apparently have the "skills" of an ex-CEO economic master.

[Blue Skies]

Are you admitting the economy is in bad shape ? It sure sounds like it. Why do you think it is in bad shape ? Six years of Labour possibly?


Lets correct this for a start.
For the first 2 years of Labour govt they brought the Debt to GDP ratio down to the lowest level for decades & only after Covid hit the globe & then the 2 devastating cyclones, that ratio has climbed significantly, so its only last 3 years of the govt, not 6 as is being misquoted.
And that was to support businesses to stay afloat, support employment, managing the Covid response & support for devastated areas. e.g. without support, horticulture would have been be wiped out, to never recover in regions like Hawkes Bay, roads & rail lines need to be rebuilt, peoples homes destroyed etc.

But never mind what I think, what do you think?

You constantly criticise the govt for our high debt levels, so tell us how do you reconcile National promising $14.6 Billion in tax cuts (which they know full well can not be anything like fully funded, instead of reducing our Debt?

Even Right Wing Mathew Hooton says you're being conned.
Tell us how Mathew's wrong.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Not one single person in the media calls Robertson out on his 'fully costed' bull sheet. It was 'fully costed' to for 10 Waters to blow out by $1 Billion?! WTF?!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/three-waters-cost-blowout-expected-to-hit-1-billion-in-mega-bureaucracy/JV7RIOBWJRBEPAC5I6GA2FPH54/

Three Waters cost blowout expected to hit $1 billion in ‘mega-bureaucracy’

By Kate MacNamara
29 Jun, 2023 04:55 PM

Amendments to the Three Waters reform plan have blown out establishment costs by an estimated $1 billion.

[Panda-NZ-]

Matthew Hooton: National's tax plan is a cyncial con-job.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-nationals-tax-plan-is-a-cynical-con-job-matthew-hooton/ECXSZ52YNJFD7FSJA6LVJ6DOWU/

Though another con-job is the NZ Herald's paywall (sorry about this).

[jonu]

Not one single person in the media calls Robertson out on his 'fully costed' bull sheet. It was 'fully costed' to for 10 Waters to blow out by $1 Billion?! WTF?!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/three-waters-cost-blowout-expected-to-hit-1-billion-in-mega-bureaucracy/JV7RIOBWJRBEPAC5I6GA2FPH54/

Three Waters cost blowout expected to hit $1 billion in ‘mega-bureaucracy’

By Kate MacNamara
29 Jun, 2023 04:55 PM

Amendments to the Three Waters reform plan have blown out establishment costs by an estimated $1 billion.

In fairness Logen, there is an ever increasing number of snouts in the trough. Robbo has to keep increasing the slops.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The party of economic management can't come up with costed policies though and base it on dodgy gambling taxes & a foreign buyers tax which violates multiple international agreements.

How bad is that esp when they apparently have the "skills" of an ex-CEO economic master.

Keep going with your 'fully costed' horse sheet when the whole country can see Robertson wasting billions and billions of dollars with zero accountability. It's actually become a sick and sadistic game for the left and its patsy media enablers to bray about 'dodgy numbers' when any numbers Labour comes up with are demonstrably not worth the paper they are written. A $130 million 'hole' in Nationals tax plan you say? Goodness me, however will they cope! Well, if that does transpire then I guess they'll cope the same way the Labour government coped when they found $200 million for a disastrous and absolutely needless polytech 'mega-merger'......and then another $100 million just to keep the whole thing afloat.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2023/03/newshub-nation-national-polytechnic-merger-te-p-kenga-buckling-as-it-asks-for-more-money-and-fails-students-staff.html

Newshub Nation: National polytechnic merger Te Pūkenga buckling as it asks for more money and fails students, staff

25/03/2023
Laura Tupou
Gray Gibson

'There are serious concerns about the management of Te Pūkenga as it asks for more money for I.T. systems while course completions are plummeting and some enrolments are down.

January 1st, 2023, marked the official start of Te Pūkenga, the new national polytech and institute of technology conglomerate.

In 2019, then-Education Minister Chris Hipkins said the merger would be "transformational," but as it unfolded, it did not meet the Minister’s expectations.

Four years after the merger began, and three months into the fully formed crown entity, Te Pūkenga has been chewing through funds, shedding staff, and has poor provisional results for Māori and Pacific students.

Two former polytech CEOs and a current staffer and union representative spoke to Laura Tupou at Newshub Nation about their concerns.

"I'm fearful that we've put all of our eggs into the Te Pūkenga basket,” former co-leader of Unitec and Waiariki Polytechnics Keith Ikin said.

“I'm fearful that students don't have a choice."

Ikin was involved with Te Pūkenga until the end of last year. He dreads "the ongoing carnage of non-achievement and non-delivery just continues on,” and if it got worse, it would be a travesty, he said.

Merran Davis, who was CEO of Auckland’s Unitec Institute of Technology before joining Te Pūkenga in September 2020, said things were getting worse in terms of enrollments, equity, staff morale and student morale.

"That will continue to happen because the trust and credibility is gone," Davis said.

Steve McCabe, a senior lecturer at MIT who also functions as MIT's TEU (Tertiary Education Union) Branch President, said people would start pulling out.

“It’s going to be a death spiral,” he warned.

"If we continue to operate in this way, we are going to see the entire edifice just collapse.”

In 2019, Te Pūkenga was formed after intense consultation with the vocational education sector.

Hipkins acknowledged at the time that the system was “unsustainable”.

"Last year alone the government had to put an extra $100 million into the polytech sector simply to keep it afloat, even though the number of students was declining."

Official advice provided to Hipkins at the time around whether money could be saved said mergers were “subject to execution risks”.

Advice listed the main risks as "very high and extended costs of change”, "a lack of regional responsiveness", and "the risk of systemic failure."

$200 million was then spent on the transition costs to merge the 16 polytechs and institutes of technology with the nine industry training organisations to form Te Pūkenga.

Four years on McCabe was still waiting to see any benefits in his day-to-day experience as a lecturer, in a sector that was promised transformation.

"Twice a month now on my bank statement, my salary comes from Te Pūkenga and not from M.I.T," he said.

"That's about the most profound change I've seen."'

[Logen Ninefingers]

Lets correct this for a start.
For the first 2 years of Labour govt they brought the Debt to GDP ratio down to the lowest level for decades & only after Covid hit the globe & then the 2 devastating cyclones, that ratio has climbed significantly, so its only last 3 years of the govt, not 6 as is being misquoted.
And that was to support businesses to stay afloat, support employment, managing the Covid response & support for devastated areas. e.g. without support, horticulture would have been be wiped out, to never recover in regions like Hawkes Bay, roads & rail lines need to be rebuilt, peoples homes destroyed etc.

But never mind what I think, what do you think?

You constantly criticise the govt for our high debt levels, so tell us how do you reconcile National promising $14.6 Billion in tax cuts (which they know full well can not be anything like fully funded, instead of reducing our Debt?

Even Right Wing Mathew Hooton says you're being conned.
Tell us how Mathew's wrong.

GFC. Christchurch Earthquakes. Kaikoura Earthquake. The previous government had to deal with all of those.
Global events such as pandemics and financial crashes, & natural disasters, are part and parcel of life on this planet.
Stop blaming Labour's failures such as the total non-starter KiwiBuild, failed mergers, the '10 Waters' debacle and all the rest of it on 'the pandemic'. It's disingenuous in the extreme.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Lets correct this for a start.
For the first 2 years of Labour govt they brought the Debt to GDP ratio down to the lowest level for decades & only after Covid hit the globe & then the 2 devastating cyclones, that ratio has climbed significantly, so its only last 3 years of the govt, not 6 as is being misquoted.
And that was to support businesses to stay afloat, support employment, managing the Covid response & support for devastated areas. e.g. without support, horticulture would have been be wiped out, to never recover in regions like Hawkes Bay, roads & rail lines need to be rebuilt, peoples homes destroyed etc.

But never mind what I think, what do you think?

You constantly criticise the govt for our high debt levels, so tell us how do you reconcile National promising $14.6 Billion in tax cuts (which they know full well can not be anything like fully funded, instead of reducing our Debt?

Even Right Wing Mathew Hooton says you're being conned.
Tell us how Mathew's wrong.

Blue Skies, tell us how Left Wing Chris Trotter is wrong.

----------

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/123980/chris-trotter-gives-his-assessment-pm-labour-leader-chris-hipkins-weekend

Chris Trotter gives his assessment of PM & Labour leader Chris Hipkins' weekend speech on which political parties he will & won't work with

28th Aug 23, 1:19pm by Chris Trotter

'What are we to make of Chris Hipkins speech “Working With Others”? Ostensibly about unity, the Prime Minister’s address homes in on the two issues which, for the last three years, have divided New Zealanders the most – Ethnicity and Gender. For good measure, he has also ruled out leading Labour into any kind of coalition agreement with NZ First. Taken in its entirety, Hipkins’ speech has much less to say about unity than it does about refusing to work with anyone who declines to embrace Labour’s radical social agenda. That being the case, it would have been more honest to entitle his address: “Going For Broke With Woke”.

Implicit in this strategy is a strong belief that New Zealand society, or, at least, a majority of those New Zealanders determined to vote on 14 October, have embraced the Labour Government “line” on Ethnicity and Gender. Clearly, those who balk at the idea of injecting the concept of co-governance into the provision of public services; or reject as unfair the idea of trans-women competing against biological women in sport; will no longer find a welcome in Labour’s “big tent”. Once celebrated for its broad inclusiveness, Hipkins’ party has opted to greet potential supporters with a grim pair of ideological bouncers.

This is not, however, the picture Hipkins wishes his audience to conjure-up. Quite the opposite, in fact:
“Elections are contests of policies and values”, says Hipkins. “Disagreements are a fundamental part of a healthy democracy. But I won’t seek to divide our communities.

Labour’s focus in this election won’t be on imported culture wars, but fighting an economic war against inflation and inequality.”

From the man who issued a “Captain’s Call” ruling-out a Wealth Tax, these lines have a disturbingly Orwellian quality to them. It wasn’t Labour’s opponents who commissioned the He Puapua Report, and then kept its recommendations hidden from both NZ First and the voting public in the months prior to the 2020 General Election. Nor was it National, Act or NZ First that whipped-up opposition to the visit of “Posie Parker”, and then downplayed the violence unleashed upon those who came to hear women exercise their right to free speech. No, when it comes to importing culture wars, Labour is well out in front of its rivals.

How else are we to interpret the following sentence explaining Labour’s refusal to work with Winston Peters’ party?

“New Zealand First has become a party more interested in toilets than the issues that really matter.”

The reference is to NZ First’s policy of ensuring that biological women’s – and men’s – right to privacy is protected by requiring public toilets and changing-rooms to include spaces for those whose definitions of gender differ radically from those of their fellow citizens. NZ First’s “architectural” solution to the intrusion of biological males into biological women’s spaces, may well strike voters as a laudable attempt to broker a compromise between the contending parties.

That’s not how Hipkins sees it. According to the Prime Minister, Peters is:

“[S]eeking to make trans people the enemy in this campaign.”

That is an extraordinary accusation. It does, however, comport with the political style of the aggressively woke, who interpret anything other than 100 percent acceptance of the “correct” ideological position as proof positive of “incorrect” beliefs and “genocidal” intentions.

In for a penny, in for a pound, Hipkins presses on:

“Living fully in your own skin isn’t always easy for any of us at the best of times, and it can be particularly hard for our rainbow communities. None of them deserve the kind of abuse that is being directed their way, stoked up by politicians who should know better.”

This is hard to take from the political party which, alongside the Greens, lent its support to a social movement whose followers openly threatened violence against those who dared to oppose them – and then delivered it.

It is all of a piece, however, with a party so convinced of its own rectitude that it has become incapable of construing disagreement as anything other than – to use the buzzwords du jour – “misinformation, disinformation and malinformation”. In its mildest form, this mindset offers “education” as the optimal solution to the “wrong-think” of dissenters. Among the hardcore, however, dissenters are to be suppressed. What Hipkins has signalled in his speech is a personal preference for the hardcore’s response to the communicators of “wrong-thought” – among whom he clearly includes Winston Peters and NZ First.

That Hipkins has opted to drag New Zealanders into the strange, looking-glass world of the super-woke is deeply troubling. According to the Prime Minister, dissent on questions of gender threaten the unity of the nation and automatically disqualify the dissenting party, NZ First, from any role in government. At the same time, Te Pāti Māori may pour scorn upon the principle of majority rule, and the democratic system it upholds, without rebuke. The party’s claim that Māori genes are superior to those of New Zealand’s other ethnicities, likewise, presents no barrier to entering a Labour Party-led coalition government.

What Hipkins’ speech makes clear is that Labour has opted to “go negative” for the seven weeks remaining before the election. The Prime Minister may wax eloquent about the unity of the nation, and claim that only Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori have the right to speak for the shining Aotearoa-New Zealand of tomorrow; but what he has done, in the fractious world of today, is divide the nation into an “Us” who agree with the Red-Green-Brown troika’s radical programme, and a “Them” who cling to the wrong-thought of their outdated ideas and dangerous beliefs.

It is the intractable problem that besets all populist movements, be they of the Left or the Right. Who is, and who is not, to be counted among “the people”? Because, once you have determined who may properly be included in the “true” nation, then it follows that all those who fall outside your definition must be “untrue”. And what is the usual fate of those who prove untrue?

By the strictures set forth in his speech, Hipkins has identified the untrue nation as those who still believe that one-person, one-vote, one-value is the unalterable foundation of representative democracy. Also excluded from Team Chippy are those who answer the question: “What is a woman?”, with the words “Adult human female”.

By sunrise on 15 October, New Zealanders will know which nation is larger: the Woke Left’s “Us”, or the Centre-Right’s “Them”. Whatever else follows, the “others” being “worked with” are unlikely to include the untrue. The ones, representing close to half the nation, who lost.'

[Blue Skies]

GFC. Christchurch Earthquakes. Kaikoura Earthquake. The previous government had to deal with all of those.
Global events such as pandemics and financial crashes, & natural disasters, are part and parcel of life on this planet.
Stop blaming Labour's failures such as the total non-starter KiwiBuild, failed mergers, the '10 Waters' debacle and all the rest of it on 'the pandemic'. It's disingenuous in the extreme.



Im afraid your perceptions are not based on fact.
The previous govt has not had to deal with anything like the same challenges.

The effects of the Global Covid Pandemic absolutely dwarf those of the GFC, it was a once in over 100 year event,

But in the last 100 years there have been at least 7 major International Financial Crisis & the GFC was only 1 of them.

The Great Depression 1932
Suez Crisis 1956
International Debt Crisis 1982
Asian Economic Crisis 1997-2001
Russian Economic Crisis 1992-1997
Latin American Debt Crisis 1994-2002
Global Economic Recession 2007-2009

and the devastation caused by the 2 cyclones across so much of the North Island, are on par with the Christchurch Earthquake & far higher than the Kaikoura earthquake.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Im afraid your perceptions are not based on fact.
The previous govt has not had to deal with anything like the same challenges.

The effects of the Global Covid Pandemic absolutely dwarf those of the GFC, it was a once in over 100 year event,

But in the last 100 years there have been at least 7 major International Financial Crisis & the GFC was only 1 of them.

The Great Depression 1932
Suez Crisis 1956
International Debt Crisis 1982
Asian Economic Crisis 1997-2001
Russian Economic Crisis 1992-1997
Latin American Debt Crisis 1994-2002
Global Economic Recession 2007-2009

and the devastation caused by the 2 cyclones across so much of the North Island, are on par with the Christchurch Earthquake & far higher than the Kaikoura earthquake.

'Mate, you're dreaming'.

When Chris Trotter has well and truly turned on the Labour wokesters, your side have a massive problem on their hands.

[Panda-NZ-]

Whose chris trotter..? Haven't heard of him.

[dobby41]

National are dreaming if they think they will get $200mil from gambling and $740mil from 15% tax on houses - $1billion in the hole for a start on their tax plan.
They can't tax the Chinese but seem to think they have that covered.

Matthew Hooten is not a fan of the budget
Election 2023: National’s tax plan is a cynical con job - Matthew Hooton
National’s tax policy was much worse than expected. It reveals a party undeserving of being taken seriously. It has no plan to “fix the economy”, nor any idea of what one might look like. It seems uninterested in achieving power to avert economic disaster, and content merely to hold office.

Sums it up pretty well.
Preium Herald content
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-nationals-tax-plan-is-a-cynical-con-job-matthew-hooton/ECXSZ52YNJFD7FSJA6LVJ6DOWU/

[thegreatestben]

Whose chris trotter..? Haven't heard of him.

http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/

[Logen Ninefingers]

National are dreaming if they think they will get $200mil from gambling and $740mil from 15% tax on houses - $1billion in the hole for a start on their tax plan.
They can't tax the Chinese but seem to think they have that covered.

Matthew Hooten is not a fan of the budget
Election 2023: National’s tax plan is a cynical con job - Matthew Hooton
National’s tax policy was much worse than expected. It reveals a party undeserving of being taken seriously. It has no plan to “fix the economy”, nor any idea of what one might look like. It seems uninterested in achieving power to avert economic disaster, and content merely to hold office.

Sums it up pretty well.
Preium Herald content
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-nationals-tax-plan-is-a-cynical-con-job-matthew-hooton/ECXSZ52YNJFD7FSJA6LVJ6DOWU/

Another joker. Robbo is $1 billion in the hole every week.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Whose chris trotter..? Haven't heard of him.

You've been living under a rock?

[dobby41]

Another joker. Robbo is $1 billion in the hole every week.

Not actually true but I'd expect nothing less from you.

I gather you are happy with a tax plan that is built on lies?

[Panda-NZ-]

I gather you are happy with a tax plan that is built on lies?

He's sucked in by the blue brochures.

Not quite apple level marketing, but it's effective on some. They do have $5m+ to throw around this election.

[iceman]

Labour's targeted $3.6 Billion in savings & reducing the debt while supporting those at the bottom is far more realistic & responsible.

BS. You’re being very disingenuous.
Labour has no plans to reduce debt. In 6 years they’ve taken our borrowing from $60 Billion to $160 Billion.

In 5 years they’ve increased total annual Government expenditure from $ 99B to $160B (who knows how bad this year will look), with a forecasted increase of $92.5 B in the next 4 years. Then they announced $4B in savings so this increase should drop to $88.5 B.
Big deal.

They’ve increased annual Government expenditure by 9% per year since the took office, up from 1.5% in the last 5 years of the previous Government.

They’ve recently announced they already need to borrow $15B more than they had in the budget in May. How on earth can you say they will reduce debt ?

[Panda-NZ-]

They’ve recently announced they already need to borrow $15B more than they had in the budget in May. How on earth can you say they will reduce debt ?

So did Bill English, but they get a pass apparently.

[Panda-NZ-]

Backlash grows over Chinese companies purchasing land in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IMaeZlES3Q

Concerns include national security risks (ie, setting up spy bases).

National knows better of course.

[SBQ]

Most of you guys got it all wrong. As i've mentioned before, in support of Milton Friedman's belief, the only way to control gov't excesses (spending) is by lowering taxes. Never believe that any party being voted in, will managed to voluntarily LOWER their expenditures WITHOUT lowering the tax revenue.

I'm all for this coming election, voting for any party that looks to lower taxes... plain and simple.

[Panda-NZ-]

Nothing can stop spending related to an aging population.

Though we can fund it by NZ super fund and ringfence Kiwisaver for retirement purposes only.

[SBQ]

Nothing can stop spending related to an aging population.

Though we can fund it by NZ super fund and ringfence Kiwisaver for retirement purposes only.

Over in America they have 'estate or death taxes' which applies to amounts OVER $11M USD. There are many individuals in the 9 or 10 figure status living there and have no issues paying that tax. Why doesn't NZ have a tax like this? For which instead, NZ attracts the very wealthy to park their $ in owning massive #s of houses, and never pay a dollar in tax on the capital gain?

Over in America they have their 401K plan which allows individual to make withdrawals as a deposit to buy their first home. Likewise in Canada their RRSP plan allows individuals to withdraw and buy their FIRST home. UNLIKE NZ's Kiwi Saver which is taxed annually on many of the paper gain share investments, both the 401K and RRSP use 'deferred' taxation. But the deferral of this tax (upon withdrawal at retirement) can be avoided when used to acquire a home. How come NZ doesn't understand this model? Why do houses remain a tax free status on the capital gain, while FIF funds for the working class under Kiwi Saver have to pay FDR like taxes?

That my friend is the reason why NZ has fallen down to the bottom of the OECD productivity index. Far too much of our wealth is tied up in houses and not into business ownership.

[SBQ]

"Governments will spend, what ever the tax system will raise, PLUS as much more as they can get away with" - Milton Friedman

https://youtu.be/HoZHXOPepWU

and for those that don't know where inflation comes from:

https://youtu.be/F94jGTWNWsA

probably well over the head of most peoples understanding in NZ.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So did Bill English, but they get a pass apparently.

Are you and Blue Skies sitting next to each other? National can’t offer tax cuts cos ‘we fink theres a hole in numbers’, but Robbo wastes untold billions and takes government spending through the roof and beyond and ‘it’s all ok cos ‘fully costed’’. Turn it up!

Sorry fellas, nobody is falling for the bizarro world bs anymore, except for rusted on Labourites and wooly headed Greens supporters.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So did Bill English, but they get a pass apparently.

Bill English never got a pass for anything, borrowed to keep paying the benefits after the GFC and Labour / Union stooges like you brayed about ‘Nationals big debt’ while also accusing the government of harsh austerity.

[Logen Ninefingers]

He's sucked in by the blue brochures.

Not quite apple level marketing, but it's effective on some. They do have $5m+ to throw around this election.

How many millions will the Unions throw around attempting to vilify Luxon so that they can continue controlling the country via their parliamentary political wing, Labour?

The relationship between Labour and the Unions is so close they are basically the same entity. Union members pay their dues - which end up funding attack ads and an army of on-line trolls, while at the same time the Left howls about the donations that National gets. It is beyond time that there was a formal inquiry into the role of the Unions in subverting democracy in this country, including via their connections with the media. There needs to be full transparency via a formal process, as the journos - members of the Union movement themselves - aren’t going to do any digging.

[Panda-NZ-]

How many millions will the Unions throw around attempting to vilify Luxon so that they can continue controlling the country via their parliamentary political wing, Labour?


A meagre 400k apparently (a significant portion from deceased estates).

https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/political-parties-in-new-zealand/party-donations-and-loans-by-year/

NZ unions are so ineffective today in every respect, they may as well become company unions.

[Logen Ninefingers]

A meagre 400k apparently (a significant portion from deceased estates).

https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/political-parties-in-new-zealand/party-donations-and-loans-by-year/

NZ unions are so ineffective today in every respect, they may as well become company unions.

I'm not talking about donations to Labour from their cheapskate rank and file supporters, I'm talking about the cost of the Union attack ads set to be launched next week.

[Blue Skies]

BS. You’re being very disingenuous.
Labour has no plans to reduce debt. In 6 years they’ve taken our borrowing from $60 Billion to $160 Billion.

In 5 years they’ve increased total annual Government expenditure from $ 99B to $160B (who knows how bad this year will look), with a forecasted increase of $92.5 B in the next 4 years. Then they announced $4B in savings so this increase should drop to $88.5 B.
Big deal.

They’ve increased annual Government expenditure by 9% per year since the took office, up from 1.5% in the last 5 years of the previous Government.

They’ve recently announced they already need to borrow $15B more than they had in the budget in May. How on earth can you say they will reduce debt ?




Yes of course you're quite right, I expressed that the wrong way. I just added that as an after thought at the end of my post & meant to argue I think Labour's targeted $3.6 Billion in savings is more realistic & responsible, for reducing the amount needed to borrow (rather than reducing the overall debt) than Nationals proposed $14.6 Billion tax cuts.

The main concern I have is around National's $14.6 Billion tax cut when we already have so much debt plus the very shaky & perhaps unrealistic forecasts of how they are going to fund them without further borrowing or increasing GST.

Even HdPA said & Barry Soper agreed, National's forecast funding figures are 'ludicrous' but many seem prepared to overlook this as they want a change of govt.
And Matthew Hooton said people are being conned if they believe the tax cuts will be fully funded.

[Panda-NZ-]

I'm not talking about donations to Labour from their cheapskate rank and file supporters, I'm talking about the cost of the Union attack ads set to be launched next week.

I'm sure national can find something to do with their $5 million bucks to counter it along with Act's $2 million.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I'm sure national can find something to do with their $5 million bucks to counter it along with Act's $2 million.

You may support a campaign of nasty Union attack ads but I think it’s disgraceful.

[iceman]

So did Bill English, but they get a pass apparently.

Bill English as a Finance Minister worked tirelessly after the Christchurch earthquakes and the GFC, to balance the books. He succeeded. Compare that to the ever deteriorating books under Robinson

[Panda-NZ-]

Bill English as a Finance Minister worked tirelessly after the Christchurch earthquakes and the GFC, to balance the books. He succeeded. Compare that to the ever deteriorating books under Robinson

He tripled the debt and then wanted to spend the $1.1b surplus on a 2017 lolly scramble.

The credit rating was downgraded (by multiple credit agencies) under his tenure.

[iceman]

He tripled the debt then wanted to spend the surplus on a 2017 lolly scramble.

The credit rating was downgraded under his tenure.

And look at the lolly scramble we got. 9% per annum increase in Government expenditure for 5 years. No doubt much more in the current year

[Panda-NZ-]

Instead of the National tax plan, how about we increase pressure to lift wages instead.

It would boost govt revenue (rather than cost $14b) through both income tax & GST. Then we can afford to pay for some of that spending.

[ithaka]

He tripled the debt and then wanted to spend the $1.1b surplus on a 2017 lolly scramble.

The credit rating was downgraded (by multiple credit agencies) under his tenure.

When the Labour-led Government took over the Treasury benches in 2017, total Crown expenditure was $ 99b a year.
Over the previous five years — 2012 to 2017 - that number had grown from $ 92b. So the total growth in government spending immediately before their arrival was $7b or 7.6 per cent over that five years, about 1.5 per cent a year.
In 2017, the election resulted in the Labour-led government being installed. In the five reported years since then (2023 results are not yet published), our total government expenditure has gone from $ 99b in 2017 to $151b in 2022.
The increase in total Crown expenditure over that five years is $52b or almost 9 per cent a year.
As if this wasn't enough, in the 2023 Budget unveiled in May, the Government announced plans to spend an additional 32 per cent over the following four years to 2027.
This would amount to a further increase of $92.5b by 2027 on top of the excessive spending that has been allowed to build up over the past five years.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/bruce-cotterill-my-pride-in-new-zealand-is-turning-to-embarrassment/ paywalled

[Logen Ninefingers]

When the Labour-led Government took over the Treasury benches in 2017, total Crown expenditure was $ 99b a year.
Over the previous five years — 2012 to 2017 - that number had grown from $ 92b. So the total growth in government spending immediately before their arrival was $7b or 7.6 per cent over that five years, about 1.5 per cent a year.
In 2017, the election resulted in the Labour-led government being installed. In the five reported years since then (2023 results are not yet published), our total government expenditure has gone from $ 99b in 2017 to $151b in 2022.
The increase in total Crown expenditure over that five years is $52b or almost 9 per cent a year.
As if this wasn't enough, in the 2023 Budget unveiled in May, the Government announced plans to spend an additional 32 per cent over the following four years to 2027.
This would amount to a further increase of $92.5b by 2027 on top of the excessive spending that has been allowed to build up over the past five years.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/bruce-cotterill-my-pride-in-new-zealand-is-turning-to-embarrassment/ paywalled

You cannot argue with either panda or blue skies, they will always ignore or deflect. Their only motivation is to attack National constantly so that the Left can continue with the creeping roll out of socialism and a 'tear it down to rebuild' approach to our society. What they are actually doing is wrecking the country. The Left have carefully thought out slogans and lines of attack. They know they must bribe or brainwash enough of the middle class to get the votes to keep power, so you get sloganeering like 'nine years of neglect' and 'unfunded tax cuts'. I absolutely have no problem with National offering tax cuts because they have absolutely no option when they are up against Socialist whole entire raison d'etre is to borrow, spend, and bribe. When you see the chronic mind-boggling waste and staggering spending of this Labour government, I have just one message to anyone wanting to pipe up about National's purported 'dodgy numbers': go and get stuffed. I hope the Left get smashed at this election, the thought of putting LABGREETEPATI into power is akin to letting termites attack the foundations of your house.

[Daytr]

When the Labour-led Government took over the Treasury benches in 2017, total Crown expenditure was $ 99b a year.
Over the previous five years — 2012 to 2017 - that number had grown from $ 92b. So the total growth in government spending immediately before their arrival was $7b or 7.6 per cent over that five years, about 1.5 per cent a year.
In 2017, the election resulted in the Labour-led government being installed. In the five reported years since then (2023 results are not yet published), our total government expenditure has gone from $ 99b in 2017 to $151b in 2022.
The increase in total Crown expenditure over that five years is $52b or almost 9 per cent a year.
As if this wasn't enough, in the 2023 Budget unveiled in May, the Government announced plans to spend an additional 32 per cent over the following four years to 2027.
This would amount to a further increase of $92.5b by 2027 on top of the excessive spending that has been allowed to build up over the past five years.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/bruce-cotterill-my-pride-in-new-zealand-is-turning-to-embarrassment/ paywalled

I'm not saying that all that spending is justified however a couple of points.
1) A lot of that expenditure was used for the Covid response.
2) it's easy not to increase spending if you don't do anything besides build motorways. National under invested particularly in health, education not only not keeping wages in line but also not looking after the infrastructure. The next Government coming in had to remedy those short falls.
3) Government spending isn't immune to inflation.
4) There has been a lot of wasteful spending by Labour.

[Panda-NZ-]

When the Labour-led Government took over the Treasury benches in 2017, total Crown expenditure was $ 99b a year.

There was something called a coronavirus pandemic which occurred (though you might not have noticed given our world leading response, which I think is understandable)

2019: $7b budget surplus and a credit rating upgrade.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Instead of the National tax plan, how about we increase pressure to lift wages instead.

It would boost govt revenue (rather than cost $14b) through both income tax & GST. Then we can afford to pay for some of that spending.

Yeah, good one. National's counter to Labours lolly scramble: "we'll increase pressure to lift wages". That'll go down well with the sheep out there who - thanks to the Left - have an expectation that every budget and election will be a massive giveaway.
Beat the Left at their own game, then overturn their social engineering and attempts to turn NZ into another Greece.

[Panda-NZ-]

Beat the Left at their own game, then overturn their social engineering and attempts to turn NZ into another Greece.

Greeks don't want to pay tax either... they are prolific tax avoiders.

Where is the $14b coming from.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Greeks don't want to pay tax... they are prolific tax avoiders.

In Greece the aim was to become a public servant rather than work in the private sector. And it has become the same here.

[Panda-NZ-]

In Greece the aim was to become a public servant rather than work in the private sector. And it has become the same here.

Show us the money... $14b...

[Panda-NZ-]

National's numbers on foreign buyers tax are 'bulls**t' says economist | Newshub Nation.


Economist Shamubeel Eaqub calls National's numbers on their foreign buyers tax 'bullsh*t. He unpacked National's tax policy with NZME head of business Fran O'Sullivan this morning on Newshub Nation today.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaKr-P5nZUI

[Logen Ninefingers]

National's numbers on foreign buyers tax are 'bulls**t' says economist | Newshub Nation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaKr-P5nZUI

Yeah, it's a pile on alright. The media going into overdrive to try to turn the poll numbers around. The only thing that is bulls**t is Labours 'borrow, spend, and waste' approach to governing. Or 'misgoverning' should I say.
The door must be barred to the LABGREETEPATI monster and I fully endorse any realpolitik steps National has to take to ensure that.

[Panda-NZ-]

Yeah, it's a pile on alright. The media going into overdrive to try to turn the poll numbers around. The only thing that is bulls**t is Labours 'borrow, spend, and waste' approach to governing. Or 'misgoverning' should I say.

Why should we trust a team who can't deliver some decent policies.

This is supposed to be their area of strength, a chance to demonstrate their great economic credentials.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why should we trust a team who can't even get their own policies right.

This is supposed to be their area of strength too, a chance to demonstrate their great economic credentials.

You have to beat the Left at their own game. You clearly don't read my posts. It's realpolitik and it is needed.

Robertson borrows tens of billions of dollars, and then claims to find 'savings'. Tired of repeating myself really, this entire contrived tactic from Labour to howl about numbers is exactly that: contrived. It's a cynical game being played to the Lefts on-line trolls, and media lackeys. This time around not many people are going to buy this cra*p about Robertson carefully balancing the books while 'National have a hole in their numbers'. It's just a bs narrative.

[nztx]

Why should we trust a team who can't deliver on some decent policies.

This is supposed to be their area of strength, a chance to demonstrate their superior economic credentials.


Wrong thread - Panda - the non delivery merchants are your Lab/Green mates - 6 years of it & now
they admit dropping everyone in it - Enjoy ;)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why should we trust a team who can't deliver some decent policies.

This is supposed to be their area of strength, a chance to demonstrate their superior economic credentials.

Nobody even knows Labours policies: vote them in and you get co-governance, 3 (now 10) Waters, a mumbo jumbo school cirricumlum, a whole lot of mega-mergers nobody needs.....I shudder to think what could be unvieled if LABGREETEPATI were to take power. I reckon Hipkins would be gone in short order and then the lefts agenda will go into overdrive.

[Panda-NZ-]

You have to beat the Left at their own game. You clearly don't read my posts. It's realpolitik and it is needed.

So national aren't going to go ahead with the $14b in tax cuts?

They wouldn't be lying to voters would they...

[nztx]

Show us the money... $14b...


might be your bene and add-ons gone too to reach the $14 B ;)

You dont mind - do you .. all in the country's common good and to get rid of the current lot of incompetent wasters :)

[nztx]

So national aren't going to go ahead with the $14b in tax cuts?

They wouldn't be lying to voters would they...


You must be getting too used to be being lied to after the past 6 years of spin, lies, deceit & Bull$h!t spun for save the leader's precious face, feelgoods and nothing more ;)

[Logen Ninefingers]

might be your bene and add-ons gone too to reach the $14 B ;)

You dont mind - do you .. all in the country's common good and to get rid of the current lot of incompetent wasters :)

Yeah, if the 'numbers don't add up' then it may be that they'll have to get rid of some additional communications staffers, policy wonks, diversity consultants, and other useless thumb twiddlers. The bloated bureaucracy needs to be halved.

[Panda-NZ-]

You must be getting too used to be being lied to after the past 6 years of spin, lies, deceit & Bull$h!t spun for save the leader's precious face, feelgoods and nothing more ;)

Lying Luxon has a better ring to it..

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why should we trust a team who can't deliver some decent policies.

This is supposed to be their area of strength, a chance to demonstrate their great economic credentials.

Ha ha ha, great trolling. Deary me. Talking about delivery... Where would we even start with your beloved Labour party.....

[Daytr]

Yeah, it's a pile on alright. The media going into overdrive to try to turn the poll numbers around. The only thing that is bulls**t is Labours 'borrow, spend, and waste' approach to governing. Or 'misgoverning' should I say.
The door must be barred to the LABGREETEPATI monster and I fully endorse any realpolitik steps National has to take to ensure that.

It's been well critiqued and National’s policy has been found wanting. How on earth could the tax money from foreign purchases be that far out? 70% of purchases? Really?
From memory total foreign purchases pre the ban were about 3% of the market. Just say its 10% on properties over $2M, it still means National’s number is $600M out!
What else have they miscalculated by multiples?
The chaos has already begun before they are elected. I can't wait for the babbling Luxon to be interviewed on RNZ in the coming week.

It's an almighty and really stupid blunder.
Doesn't anybody check the numbers before they are made public?
Just ridiculous.

[nztx]

Yeah, if the 'numbers don't add up' then it may be that they'll have to get rid of some additional communications staffers, policy wonks, diversity consultants, and other useless thumb twiddlers. The bloated bureaucracy needs to be halved.


Always the same with Labour terms - whole villages of Govt twiddlers, consultants & others that Labour have taken on at great cost ;)

[Panda-NZ-]

Yeah, if the 'numbers don't add up' then it may be that they'll have to get rid of some additional communications staffers, policy wonks, diversity consultants, and other useless thumb twiddlers. The bloated bureaucracy needs to be halved.

Police, nurses and teachers don't need to be cut again.

Hipkins has already promised $4b public service reductions, winding down from the pandemic response.

[fungus pudding]

Nobody even knows Labours policies: vote them in and you get co-governance, 3 (now 10) Waters, a mumbo jumbo school cirricumlum, a whole lot of mega-mergers nobody needs.....I shudder to think what could be unvieled if LABGREETEPATI were to take power. I reckon Hipkins would be gone in short order and then the lefts agenda will go into overdrive.

Worse than that - you could get Phil Twyford, Kelvin Davis, Willie Jackson and a handful of other undesirables - although Parker will be gone.

[nztx]

Lying Luxon has a better ring to it..


Better have a Lie down - Panda .. lied to for past 6 years and swallowed every bucketful without question :)

[Panda-NZ-]

Imagine how lawless NZ would be if police numbers were cut to fund the $20/w tax cuts.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Lying Luxon has a better ring to it..

The modus operandi of the Left is to lie & hide true intentions, and then roll out a slow-motion revolution on the sly. Very cunning. Rat cunning IMO.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Imagine how lawless NZ would be if police numbers were cut to fund tax cuts.

That won't be happening. Just the proliferation of thumb twiddlers will be on the chopping block. As far as landlords go, all that is happening is that something that Labour brought inn will be repealed. And it's their own money. 'Hand-outs' are what is going to the tens of thousands of people sitting on 'jobseeker', over 35,000 of them on that benefit for more than 1 year while businesses are crying out for workers.

[Panda-NZ-]

The modus operandi is to lie & hide true intentions, and then roll out a slow-motion revolution on the sly. Very cunning. Rat cunning IMO.

What will you do with your 20 bucks logen, ..or 50 if you're one of the fortunate minority who popped out a kid or two.

[nztx]

Police, nurses and teachers don't need to be cut again.

Hipkins has already promised $4b public service reductions, winding down from the pandemic response.


Chump change from the performing chump that saw Robbo with a Nothing budget in election year and tenure as leader only say how many on front bench decapitated and thrown into the cupboard ;)

How many large pet projects from Robbo have Labour now thrown in the can in just the last 12 months ? ;)

Now we all see flight of the desperados who empty tin and realise that they are going to be biffed out by most Kiwi's in a large avalanche like yesterday's rubbish :)

[Logen Ninefingers]

What will you do with your 20 bucks logen,...or 50 if you're one of the fortunate minotiry.

I couldn't care less red panda, my principal motivation is to stop the LABGREETEPATI monster from taking power. That is imperative for the future of this country. The Left have a number of priorities: end farming, continue increasing the public service, continue the co-governance and 'decolonisation' agenda - with the school cirriculum being their next tool, continue the brainswashing of the public.....sorry red panda, it ain't happening.

[nztx]

Imagine how lawless NZ would be if police numbers were cut to fund the $20/w tax cuts.


Not lawless enough yet with Labours UnSafe Communities -- from the view from under your rock ? :)

Did you forget to pay the power bill ? :)

[Panda-NZ-]

I couldn't care less red panda, my principal motivation is to stop the LABGREETEPATI monster from taking power. That is imperative for the future of this country. The Left have a number of priorities: end farming, continue increasing the public service, continue the co-governance and 'decolonisation' agenda - with the school cirriculum being their next tool, continue the brainswashing of the public.....sorry red panda, it ain't happening.

Farmers have never been wealthier than under this govt.

I disagree with the govt's pro-maori agenda and some of their social policies but you can't have it all can you :)

[fungus pudding]

That won't be happening. Just the proliferation of thumb twiddlers will be on the chopping block. As far as landlords go, all that is happening is that something that Labour brought inn will be repealed. And it's their own money. 'Hand-outs' are what is going to the tens of thousands of people sitting on 'jobseeker', over 35,000 of them on that benefit for more than 1 year while businesses are crying out for workers.

Although National will disallow depreciation as a deductible expense - which is ridiculous and surprising from Nats.

[nztx]

Farmers have never been wealthier than under this govt.

I disagree with the govt's pro-maori agenda and some of their social policies but you can't have it all can you :)


Don't think Farmers are looking too wealthy with this year's trade news, higher interest rates, seasonal weather patterns & the impost of an avalanche of further bureaucracy brought on by the Labour/Green's halfwit crew of blind incompetents .. ;)

Is news slow reaching your remote cave ? :)

[Panda-NZ-]

Although National will disallow depreciation as a deductible expense - which is ridiculous and surprising from Nats.

It's part of their display of superior economic management (tm).

Goodness me, bring back bill english, the english literature major, to restore some economic credibility to the team.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Farmers have never been wealthier than under this govt.

I disagree with the govt's pro-maori agenda and some of their social policies but you can't have it all can you :)

'Too Many Cows' banners in Parliament from 'Greenpeace' protestors, protestors whose leader is a verified Marxist writing columns under a picture of Karl Marx with the words 'I'd rather have a revolution than a Labour government'. Charming. And meanwhile their Marxist mates in the Green Party gleefully take photos. James Shaw is a closet Marxist, so is Marama Davis - and probably Robertson and Hipkins are as well. And ther rest of them. They can't have the violent instantaneous global revolution that they crave, so here in NZ they go about it gradually and by stealth.

[nztx]

It's part of their display of superior economic management (tm).

Goodness me, bring back bill english, the english literature major, to restore some economic credibility to the team.


that's okay .. Not even Roger Douglas could save Labour this time with the size of the hole that Robbo has excavated
to drop all the blind, gullable, stupid, a quotient of the confused others and a few Pandas in ;)

[Logen Ninefingers]

It's part of their display of superior economic management (tm).

Goodness me, bring back bill english, the english literature major, to restore some economic credibility to the team.

This is electioneering, this about winning an election. You want them to fight Labours 'we'll take GST off your fruit & vegetables' with 'we'll push to get wages up'. Get real and understand that realpolitik is an actual thing.....or perhaps you are a bit dim?

[iceman]

National's numbers on foreign buyers tax are 'bulls**t' says economist | Newshub Nation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaKr-P5nZUI

Hahaha. The guy that sold his house years ago because it was hugely overvalued. He has no credit left and you have to go to youtube to find a references to his utterances 😂

[Panda-NZ-]

Hahaha. The guy that sold his house years ago because it was hugely overvalued. He has no credit left and you have to go to youtube to find a references to his mumblings 

It's the second lead story on Newshub (on a weekend so everyone will see it).

[iceman]

It's the second lead story on Newshub (on a weekend so everyone will see it).

On Newshub so everyone will see it !!!!!
Panda, have a rest and accept you’re fighting a ridiculous and losing battle

[Panda-NZ-]

On Newshub so everyone will see it. Panda, have a rest and accept you’re fighting a ridiculous and losing battle

I simply denied your false assertion that it was an obscure news story that no one will watch.

Everyone on Newshub will want to click on that clickbait title.

[dobby41]

Hahaha. The guy that sold his house years ago because it was hugely overvalued. He has no credit left and you have to go to youtube to find a references to his utterances 😂

He isn't, of course, the only one who thinks at least 2 of the incomes don't add up - the tax on gambling and the foreign buyers tax.
I don't disagree with the policies but the numbers don't add up (though I don't see the benefit of having foreign buyers purchasing our houses).
And that's just the start!

[dobby41]

Sums things up
14733

[Logen Ninefingers]

I simply denied your false assertion that it was an obscure news story that no one will watch.

Everyone on newshub will want to click on that clickbait title.

It's still pretty obscure....who goes to 'Newshub' for info(?)

The only more useless than tits on a bull is an economist. They are a pack of no-nothing attention seekers who were too ugly to go into showbiz so became 'economists' instead. I don't know how some of them sleep at night, nothing but bought-and-paid-for shills for the property industry & propagandists for the retail banks.

[Panda-NZ-]

The only more useless that tits on a bull is an economist. They are a pack of no-nothing attention seekers who were too ugly to go into showbiz so became 'economists' instead. I don't know how some of them sleep at night, nothing but bought-and-paid-for shills for the property industry & propagandists for the retail banks.

National party politicians and spokespeople are much more credible aren't they.

They also happen to own multiple properties and benefit directly from their tax policies.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sums things up
14733

What else could be expected from left wing (Aussie) cartoonist Rod Emerson? Every day it's another pathetic attack on the opposition. It's actually weak and gutless to just exploit his position in this way: even a left winger like Tom Scott knew enough to be even handed - and he would certainly dish it out too both sides. The New Zealand Herald is a disgrace for allowing this stuff to go on day in and day out. The clear bias is a reason why centre-right voters have abandoned that newspaper.

[Logen Ninefingers]

National party politicians and spokespeople are much more credible aren't they.

They also happen to own multiple properties and benefit directly from their tax policies.

So you don't think the economists working for the retail banks and property industry are doing well? You must be pretty naive.

[Panda-NZ-]

So you don't think the economists working for the retail banks and property industry are doing well? You must be pretty naive.

Why aren't they running interference for National then? Instead they criticise the blue team's plan (which is probably against their own interests).

In the professional world they have a reputation for competency to maintain.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why aren't they running interference for National then? Instead they criticise the blue team's plan (which is probably against their own interests).

In the professional world they have a reputation for competency to maintain.

For context, we are talking about one bloke having a crack at National.

[Panda-NZ-]

How many economists does NZ have? let alone ones who will speak often to the media.

[dobby41]

What else could be expected from left wing (Aussie) cartoonist Rod Emerson? Every day it's another pathetic attack on the opposition. It's actually weak and gutless to just exploit his position in this way: even a left winger like Tom Scott knew enough to be even handed - and he would certainly dish it out too both sides. The New Zealand Herald is a disgrace for allowing this stuff to go on day in and day out. The clear bias is a reason why centre-right voters have abandoned that newspaper.

Fascinating that you judge Emerson as biased based on 0ne cartoon.
I have seen his cartoons facing the other way.
Typical right-wing - attack the person rather than the principle.
You seem to be a bit sensitive at the moment.

I suppose you would prefer Tremain like the unbalanced one?

[ynot]

Fascinating that you judge Emerson as biased based on 0ne cartoon.
I have seen his cartoons facing the other way.
Typical right-wing - attack the person rather than the principle.
You seem to be a bit sensitive at the moment.

I suppose you would prefer Tremain like the unbalanced one?
And you lefty lot seem to be in attack mode, are you on double time up to the election?

[Daytr]

It's still pretty obscure....who goes to 'Newshub' for info(?)

The only more useless than tits on a bull is an economist. They are a pack of no-nothing attention seekers who were too ugly to go into showbiz so became 'economists' instead. I don't know how some of them sleep at night, nothing but bought-and-paid-for shills for the property industry & propagandists for the retail banks.

Seems like this economist was pretty useful & alot smarter than whoever wrote the National Party policy, but that's obviously not saying much. Luxon is going to get hammered on this & Willis the next Finance Minister even more so.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Fascinating that you judge Emerson as biased based on 0ne cartoon.
I have seen his cartoons facing the other way.
Typical right-wing - attack the person rather than the principle.
You seem to be a bit sensitive at the moment.

I suppose you would prefer Tremain like the unbalanced one?

'Fascinating that you judge Emerson as biased based on 0ne cartoon.'

----

What a dumb assumption: that I would have judged him on one cartoon. Have seen plenty of Emerson cartoons. Have also seen a Auckland council meeting where Maurice Williamson wanted to do a small slide presentation and a left wing councillor countered by saying he'd want to do a presentation with an Emerson cartoon. And of course Robertson used a Sharon Murdoch cartoon as a prop in Parliament this week.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Fascinating that you judge Emerson as biased based on 0ne cartoon.
I have seen his cartoons facing the other way.
Typical right-wing - attack the person rather than the principle.
You seem to be a bit sensitive at the moment.

I suppose you would prefer Tremain like the unbalanced one?

Here we go: someone could list a dozen cartoonists employed by the mainstream media who are churning out left wing propaganda, and still we'd get this cry of 'Tremain!' from the Left.

Tremain isn't employed in the NZ media; he self-publishes.

[Panda-NZ-]

Why is there talk from National of "running the economy".

Yes comrade we have successfully run the economy. Our potato and turnip production is reaching new highs under the careful stewardship of politicians. - Luxon

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why is there talk from National of "running the economy".

Yes comrade we have successfully run the economy. Our potato and turnip production is reaching new highs under the careful stewardship of politicians. - Luxon

The Labourites always take the credit for any GDP growth on their watch - I don’t see you going berserk about that.

[Baa_Baa]

It's nine am on a Saturday



The regular crowd shuffles in



There’s some old men typing furiously



Making love to their party therein



They say, “Son, can you follow me”?



I’m not really sure that you know



But it’s sad and it’s bitter and no better than twitter



When I wore a younger mans clothes



La, la-la, di-di-da



La-la di-di-da da-dum



Sing us a song, you’re the politico man



Sing us a song today



Well, we’re all in the mood for a malady



And you got us feeling all bad.



Now John at the bar is a fiend in mind



He thinks that everything’s free



And he’s quick to joke or light up joint



But there’s nothing he will agree



He says “Bill, I believe this is killing me”



As the smile ran away from his face



“Well, I’m sure that I could be a journalist”



If I could get out of this place



Oh, la, la-la, di-di-da



La-la di-di-da da-dum



But now Paul is a political novelist



Who never had had time for a real life



And he’s bagging Davy who’ll never leave the Navy



And probably will be for life



And the waitress is practicing decorum



As the businessmen are already stoned



Yes they’re sharing a drink they call desperation



But it’s better than drinking alone



Sing us the song, you're the piano man



Sing us a song today



There’s no one taking you seriously



No one is feeling alright



It’s a surprisingly good crowd for a Saturday



Wasting their whole day posting here giving me a smile



Cause he knows that it's me they've been comin' to see



To remind me about how politics is vile



And the piano sounds like a criminal



And the microphone smells as well



And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar



And say, man what are you lot really doing here.



Oh, la, la-la, di-di-da



La-la di-di-da da-dum



Sing us the song, you're the loser men, lost in your political dreams



Sing us another song tomorrow



We won’t read that either



And you’ve just wasted another day of your life posting, BS all day and into the night

[nztx]

The Labourites always take the credit for any GDP growth on their watch - I don’t see you going berserk about that.


they must have missed the growing size of Robbo's hole and Labour's pet monkey lingering with huge debt signs ;)

[winner69]

Apparently today Luxon going to unveil his personal priorities in the form of a pledge card

Heaven forbid if he thinks that’s going to change punters perception of him

Going to go down in history as the guy who lost the election which he should have won in a landslide

[Logen Ninefingers]

Apparently today Luxon going to unveil his personal priorities in the form of a pledge card

Heaven forbid if he thinks that’s going to change punters perception of him

Going to go down in history as the guy who lost the election which he should have won in a landslide

Punters? You and your fellow Labourites down at the TAB?

[winner69]

Punters? You and your fellow Labourites down at the TAB?

Never voted Labour in my life …..true blue Nat

But awfully disappointed with Luxon’s performace ..useless as …and Nats going down the gurgler as such

[Logen Ninefingers]

Never voted Labour in my life …..true blue Nat

But awfully disappointed with Luxon’s performace ..useless as …and Nats going down the gurgler as such

So you are picking that ACT will capture the centre right vote this election?

[Bjauck]

Hahaha. The guy that sold his house years ago because it was hugely overvalued. He has no credit left and you have to go to youtube to find a references to his utterances 
It has taken one of the most concessionary tax regimes for housing and investor housing in the OECD to get where we are today. (No general CGT, No stamp duties, no Stamp duty surcharge for second homes, etc.). Also tightening up of overseas buyer ban, negative gearing and bright line tax occurred after much of the price surge occurred.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It has taken one of the most concessionary tax regimes for housing and investor housing in the OECD to get where we are today. (No general CGT, No stamp duties, no Stamp duty surcharge for second homes, etc.). Also tightening up of overseas buyer ban, negative gearing and bright line tax occurred after much of the price surge occurred.

The ‘COVID-19 stimulus’ price surge was when things went really nuts, Reserve Bank and government moves to prop up the market were instead seen by a stupid populace as a signal to go ‘all in’ on property. OCR was at 0.25% and spruiking ‘property experts’ were telling everyone that prices would double every 5 years….and the lemmings believed them. As soon as inflation showed up in a big way the ‘irrational exuberance’ party was pooped.

[dobby41]

Punters? You and your fellow Labourites down at the TAB?

National need to encourage betting to fund their tax cuts - the money isn't available otherwise.

[Blue Skies]

Apparently today Luxon going to unveil his personal priorities in the form of a pledge card

Heaven forbid if he thinks that’s going to change punters perception of him

Going to go down in history as the guy who lost the election which he should have won in a landslide




Oh no.......Pledges, - another ghastly Americanism, we don't do this Pledge thing.

It's like when Chris Luxon momentarily went off script joking to Nicola Willis the tax cuts will mean she (on over $200,000/ year & owning 4 houses) will once a week be able to afford Ben & Jerry's ice-cream instead of Tip Top !
Apart from falling flat & tone deaf, why would anyone choose an American corporate brand, Ben & Jerry's over any of our bespoke Premium brands which leave Ben & Jerry's for dead.
NZ makes some of the best Premium brand ice-cream in the world, our cows are grass fed.
Chris Luxon is a fast learner but has spent too much time overseas & not long enough back here yet.
And he's got no sense of humour, another deeply troubling concern!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Oh no.......Pledges, - another ghastly Americanism, we don't do this Pledge thing.

It's like when Chris Luxon momentarily went off script joking to Nicola Willis the tax cuts will mean she (on over $200,000/ year & owning 4 houses) will once a week be able to afford Ben & Jerry's ice-cream instead of Tip Top !
Apart from falling flat & tone deaf, why would anyone choose an American corporate brand, Ben & Jerry's over any of our bespoke Premium brands which leave Ben & Jerry's for dead.
NZ makes some of the best Premium brand ice-cream in the world, our cows are grass fed.
Chris Luxon is a fast learner but has spent too much time overseas & not long enough back here yet.
And he's got no sense of humour, another deeply troubling concern!

Pledges: Helen Clark did it previously, and no doubt you would have been cheering then….but now it’s a ‘ghastly Americanism’. But any excuse to launch into an anti-National diatribe eh? Ben & Jerry’s(?) What a truly bizarre rant….

[Getty]

Yep, the plot is being lost in this election.

Will the Tamakis be able to rescue us?

[Blue Skies]

Pledges: Helen Clark did it previously, and no doubt you would have been cheering then….but now it’s a ‘ghastly Americanism’. But any excuse to launch into an anti-National diatribe eh? Ben & Jerry’s(?) What a truly bizarre rant….


C'mon mate, lighten up, just stirring.
Don't take everything too seriously.

[Panda-NZ-]

Yep, the plot is being lost in this election.

Will the Tamakis be able to rescue us?

If Luxon visits Otara, maybe.

[Getty]

With the others winging it, we need a prayer from somewhere.

[Logen Ninefingers]

C'mon mate, lighten up, just stirring.
Don't take everything too seriously.

Labours reign has been black comedy, everything’s fully costed?….what a joke! 😔🙂

[Logen Ninefingers]

If Luxon visits Otara, maybe.

Maori and Pacifica have been taught to think of National as ‘the Pakeha colonists party’.
I think Maori believe Captain Cook was from the National Party, as was General Cameron. Never mind that the two ministers who achieved the most on treaty settlements and redress were Doug Graham and Chris Finlayson, both from National.

[fungus pudding]

Labours reign has been black comedy, everything’s fully costed?….what a joke! ����

Not really - it has fully costed us plenty.

[Panda-NZ-]

Chris Luxon is a fast learner but has spent too much time overseas & not long enough back here yet.
And he's got no sense of humour, another deeply troubling concern!

He's basically running as a US conservative, in NZ.

Except they have nicola willis to make us forget his medieval social agenda.

[Logen Ninefingers]

He's basically running as a US conservative, in NZ.

Except they have nicola willis to make us forget his medieval social agenda.

Not sure what you are referring to as ‘medieval’. You think he’ll advocate for burning ‘witches’ and bringing back the dunking stools when he’s PM? It was the second half of the 20th century when a few things were legalised / normalised that had previously actually been against the law. As a Christian I guess Luxon just reads his Bible - which is purportedly the literal word of God - and he objects to anything that God objects to. Any non-christians among us just have to tolerate them and their beliefs I suppose, but it shouldn’t preclude them from standing for Parliament or being political leaders. Apparently Muslims are pretty strong on ‘upholding Gods rules’ as well, so it’s not just Christians like Luxon.

[Panda-NZ-]

Not sure what you are referring to as ‘medieval’. You think he’ll advocate for burning ‘witches’ and bringing back the dunking stools when he’s PM?

Slight exaggeration, similar to how you call people commies for having a different perspective.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Slight exaggeration, similar to how you call people commies for having a different perspective.

You are a big fan of capitalism I take it? How about conservatives?

[Panda-NZ-]

You are a big fan of capitalism I take it? How about conservatives?

Not a "big fan" no, depends on which flavour of conservative.

I dislike US conservatives like Luxon and Neo-liberals like seymour. I like winston peters and others who aim to put NZ people first.

[justakiwi]

Unless you happen to be transgender.


Not a "big fan" no, depends on which flavour of conservative.

I dislike US conservatives like Luxon and Neo-liberals like seymour, I like winston peters and others who aim to put NZ people first.

[Panda-NZ-]

Well it's different in a way, there is an element of choice unlike your sexual orientation.

[justakiwi]

Nobody chooses to be transgender. Nobody.

The only element of "choice" is whether to transition via HRT and/or gender reassignment surgery. Some transgender people make that choice. Some do not. And many others, have no choice because they have no ability to pay for it.


Well it's different in a way, there is an element of choice unlike your sexual orientation.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Not a "big fan" no, depends on which flavour of conservative.

I dislike US conservatives like Luxon and Neo-liberals like seymour. I like winston peters and others who aim to put NZ people first.

'I like winston peters and others who (cl)aim to put NZ people first.'

Fixed it for you.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Not a "big fan" no, depends on which flavour of conservative.

I dislike US conservatives like Luxon and Neo-liberals like seymour. I like winston peters and others who aim to put NZ people first.

A 'neoliberal' is someone who believes in small government, private ownership, and less regulation rather than more. Not someone who eats babies, not Vlad the Impaler, but the way this term has become a sort of progressive by-word for 'evil' is typical of the way that Lefty's try and demonise the Right.
You're right back their with the miners marching against Margaret Thatcher and crying over the privatisation of telephone services and the railways (which were bought back btw). Never mind that NZ government control of industries resulted in massive inefficiencies and hampered economic growth, the facts cannot be allowed to get in the way of your story.
You've got a 70's and 80's mindset, but fundamentally you believe the state should 'own the means of production' to 'benefit the proletariat rather than the bourgeoisie'. Well we are all entitled to our opinions I guess; you and KM have yours and others have theirs.

[Getty]

Yeah, my tranny went off with a lot of static and hiss, but eventually l managed to get it back on station.

Damn temperamental thing.

[Panda-NZ-]

You've got a 70's and 80's mindset, but fundamentally you believe the state should 'own the means of production' to 'benefit the proletariat rather than the bourgeoisie'. Well we are all entitled to our opinions I guess; you and KM have yours and others have theirs.

I think I would know what I believe, and it's not that.

I believe we need to work less over time not more (you may have noticed I'm a big fan of more public holidays).

[winner69]

A 'neoliberal' is someone who believes in small government, private ownership, and less regulation rather than more. Not someone who eats babies, not Vlad the Impaler, but the way this term has become a sort of progressive by-word for 'evil' is typical of the way that Lefty's try and demonise the Right.
You're right back their with the miners marching against Margaret Thatcher and crying over the privatisation of telephone services and the railways (which were bought back btw). Never mind that NZ government control of industries resulted in massive inefficiencies and hampered economic growth, the facts cannot be allowed to get in the way of your story.
You've got a 70's and 80's mindset, but fundamentally you believe the state should 'own the means of production' to 'benefit the proletariat rather than the bourgeoisie'. Well we are all entitled to our opinions I guess; you and KM have yours and others have theirs.

Abbreviated version: neo-liberalism is "just a bunch of powerful people doing things in their own self interest.“

[Logen Ninefingers]

Abbreviated version: neo-liberalism is "just a bunch of powerful people doing things in their own self interest.“

It's actually exactly what I explained it as.

The Left have had some pretty powerful people throughout modern history: just look at the power over millions people like Mao, Lenin, and Stalin were able to exert. Mao is history's biggest mass murderer, and Stalin isn't far behind him.

[Panda-NZ-]

Social democracy could have prevented it by giving people a more moderate democratic alternative.

Before Stalin you had conservatives running things (with a neoliberal economy) and when people's needs predictably aren't being met you can see how a Lenin would be attractive.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Social democracy could have prevented it by giving people a more moderate democratic alternative.

Before Stalin you had conservatives running things (with a neoliberal economy), when people's needs predictably aren't being met you can see how a lenin would be attractive.

Tsarism was 'a neoliberal economy'? You've got a skewed 'knowledge' of history.

[Balance]

It's actually exactly what I explained it as.

The Left have had some pretty powerful people throughout modern history: just look at the power over millions people like Mao, Lenin, and Stalin were able to exert. Mao is history's biggest mass murderer, and Stalin isn't far behind him.

Actually the West (especially the US) is history’s greatest mass murderer - wiping out whole societies (eg. Native Americans) and destroying their ways of life.

You forgot to add Pol Pot of course when it comes to mass murder … nobody killed more as a %tage of a country’s population than this monster?

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Left are always in a state of constant resentment and hysteria, trying to compare the downtrodden serts and peasants of olden times with today's 'working class' (teachers, web designers, retail workers etc etc etc). Same with poverty: there they live in iron shanty towns with no plumbing or clean water, here we have government benefits and supplements for anything you could wish for. "Oh the neoliberalism, oh the extreme horror"....the reality is that this society has free this, free that, and free the other. Before the advent of the welfare state the unemployed and poor had to rely on charity and family to get by....but in todays 'noeliberal horror show' 100,000 people can sit on a taxpayer paid 'jobseeker' benefit darning their socks.

[Panda-NZ-]

Tsarism was 'a neoliberal economy'? You've got a skewed 'knowledge' of history.

As fascinating as this debate would be it's somewhat off topic.

Although Luxon did say he wants to run the economy. Is Muldoon his insipration there, or Nikita Kruschev?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Actually the West (especially the US) is history’s greatest mass murderer - wiping out whole societies (eg. Native Americans) and destroying their ways of life.

You forgot to add Pol Pot of course when it comes to mass murder … nobody killed more as a %tage of a country’s population than this monster?

It's usually been the way throughout history that a group of people would attack another group of people to take their land and resources.
Slavery - for instance - has been a constant throughout human history.
The Left would like us all to ignore this & instead embrace a patently absurd view that anglo-saxons invented invasion, conquest, slavery, and colonisation.

[Panda-NZ-]

The Left are always in a state of constant resentment and hysteria, trying to compare the downtrodden serts and peasants of olden times with today's 'working class' (teachers, web designers, retail workers etc etc etc). Same with poverty: there they live in iron shanty towns with no plumbing or clean water, here we have government benefits and supplements for anything you could wish for. "Oh the neoliberalism, oh the extreme horror"....the reality is that this society has free this, free that, and free the other. Before the advent of the welfare state the unemployed and poor had to rely on charity and family to get by....but in todays 'noeliberal horror show' 100,000 people can sit on a taxpayer paid 'jobseeker' benefit darning their socks.

Luxon once said in an interview that he wants the community sector to rival the government in size.

Why would this sector need to be so large if a pure free market has so many great things about it and it "delivers" for the people?

[Logen Ninefingers]

As fascinating as this debate would be it's somewhat off topic.

Although Luxon did say he wants to run the economy. Is Muldoon his insipration there, or Nikita Kruschev?

It's the view of the ignorant populace that politicians 'run the economy'. Politicians are happy to oblige these quasi-religious beliefs. All politicians make the claim that they are responsible for the good times, for any GDP growth that is occurring. When a downturn occurs it is then - of course - the fault of 'international factors'.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Luxon once said in an interview that he wants the community sector to rival the government in size.

Why would this sector need to be so large if neoliberalism has so many good things about it and it "delivers" for people?

I can't see what is wrong with a large community sector, with people involved and engaged with each other. Odd that you'd expect any economic system to deliver 'everything'. Why do you expect some sort of system to deliver 'everything' while you sit on the couch 'recieving'? Do you have some sort of masochistic desire to have your life tightly controlled by the state?

Sorry red panda, the perfect utopia where everything is 'fair' does not exist. As much as you yearn for it, and believe it will be attainable with just a bloody global revolution (no doubt killing tens of millions) and a 'one world (socialist) government', the reality is that such a government would quickly devolve into a dystopian dictatorship.

[Blue Skies]

Oh great!.....So National are relying on us selling $5 Billion dollars of NZ homes to foreign buyers, every year, to fund their tax cut plan, which sounds appealing but will give a few dollars a week to someone on the average wage.

That's a staggering $20 Billion dollars over 4 years of our most desirable real estate to people who don't want to live here.

Time to quit the sharemarket & or put your business on the market, & put that money into real estate if you want to preserve your wealth.

Little wonder Real Estate firms Bayleys & Barfoots are huge donors to National Party.

Don't let this happen, in 10/20 years time people would look back & think this was insane.

[Baa_Baa]

Do you think the average kiwi who struggled to even own a home or pay the mortgage cares who owns the $2+ million properties who would be liable for the tax? I reckon those folks will be happy to see the rich pricks, wherever they’re from get taxed 15% on their property purchases to fund more handouts to them.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Oh great!.....So National are relying on us selling $5 Billion dollars of NZ homes to foreign buyers, every year, to fund their tax cut plan, which sounds appealing but will give a few dollars a week to someone on the average wage.

That's a staggering $20 Billion dollars over 4 years of our most desirable real estate to people who don't want to live here.

Time to quit the sharemarket & or put your business on the market, & put that money into real estate if you want to preserve your wealth.

Little wonder Real Estate firms Bayleys & Barfoots are huge donors to National Party.

Don't let this happen, in 10/20 years time people would look back & think this was insane.

Poor red skies, had his heart set on a number of palatial mansions worth over $2 million but is now concerned that an even wealthier foreign buyer may get there first, or at the very least drive the price up. You rich people and your conceits and sense of entitlement, always moaning. Meanwhile the squeezed middle are doing it tough and just want a bit more in their pockets to help cushion Labours 'cost of living crisis'. Should be easy to do but Robbo has spent up deluxe and left NZ with a bare cupboard.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Journalists to Luxon at National's campaign launch today: "anything new being announced today?"

Clearly there is an expectation that we'll get a-bribe-a-day right up to the election.

I wonder what new freebie Labour are cooking up even as we speak.....

What a crazy country. Expecting constant freebies while at the same time various hypocrites and cynics howl "ooooeerrr....they've got the numbers wrong!"

If the Left want to keep playing the game this way then I reckon for each new socialistic and unaffordable freebie Labour unveils, National should unveil a new tax cut. Let the Left howl all they want about 'numbers', the general public know all too well that Labour have blown the books but are still attempting to buy this election. Yes, let the faux outrage continue; people will see it for what it is.

[Getty]

Sunday current affairs tonight featured the 2 Chris's.

John Campbell couldn't help himself from sniveling in with the diversity card.

On a positive note, it was good to see Lux smack Campbell around the ears when he played the envy card .
If that was Goldsmith, he wouldn't have known how to defend his gold.

[Baa_Baa]

Journalists to Luxon at National's campaign launch today: "anything new being announced today?"

Clearly there is an expectation that we'll get a-bribe-a-day right up to the election.

I wonder what new freebie Labour are cooking up even as we speak.....

What a crazy country. Expecting constant freebies while at the same time various hypocrites and cynics howl "ooooeerrr....they've got the numbers wrong!"

If the Left want to keep playing the game this way then I reckon for each new socialistic and unaffordable freebie Labour unveils, National should unveil a new tax cut. Let the Left howl all they want about 'numbers', the general public know all too well that Labour have blown the books but are still attempting to buy this election. Yes, let the faux outrage continue; people will see it for what it is.

I think there's a couple of things going on here, that we haven't seen for a long while:

1. For the first time in a very long time, this is not an election on populist leader appeal, neither prospective PM is particularly personally appealing. It's not about popularity this time, maybe we should be grateful for that, for a change.

Which leads to,

2. For the first time in a very long time, this is an election on policy, and it will be a stern test of whether the centre right or the centre left, and their coalition partners, can tap into the psych of the population, and dole out the most appealing policies for the masses who vote.

I'm looking forward to this election, it will be a nice change from the many past popularity contests.

My only concern is that despite bad policy, designed only to attract votes, which both major parties are proposing, one will end up being elected. I suppose any government after being elected can change its mind, though the question is whether either of them have the gumption to face reality and do the right thing after they're elected.

I think both are duplicitous and neither have the gumption needed to do that. Win at all costs, dupe the population if you have to, anything to win.

[Blue Skies]

Do you think the average kiwi who struggled to even own a home or pay the mortgage cares who owns the $2+ million properties who would be liable for the tax? I reckon those folks will be happy to see the rich pricks, wherever they’re from get taxed 15% on their property purchases to fund more handouts to them.



You've got a major problem then, it looks like National have been blindsided by our International Tax Agreements & are now scrambling to cover this.
There's the Trade Agreements & the International Tax Agreements.
Should have been aware of this before announcing the policy to open the doors to foreign buyers who don't want to live here.
Means more gaping holes in the net to capture the 15% tax.

It's clear as more scrutiny come on their policies, their figures are crumbling.

[justakiwi]

This is precisely how I am feeling right now. For me personally, nothing announced so far, instills any feeling of confidence or trust in either party.



My only concern is that despite bad policy, designed only to attract votes, which both major parties are proposing, one will end up being elected. I suppose any government after being elected can change its mind, though the question is whether either of them have the gumption to face reality and do the right thing after they're elected.

I think both are duplicitous and neither have the gumption needed to do that. Win at all costs, dupe the population if you have to, anything to win.

[SBQ]

You've got a major problem then, it looks like National have been blindsided by our International Tax Agreements & are now scrambling to cover this.
There's the Trade Agreements & the International Tax Agreements.
Should have been aware of this before announcing the policy to open the doors to foreign buyers who don't want to live here.
Means more gaping holes in the net to capture the 15% tax.

It's clear as more scrutiny come on their policies, their figures are crumbling.

There is no problem because international tax treaties are based around 'Income Taxation' and not on 'consumption' taxation such as sales tax or GST. Why does the media get this all wrong? The same argument can be said about NZ residents owning houses in Australia or Canada where THEIR tax laws apply CGT on non-residents while at the IRD end, there is no CGT applied on the sale of foreign owned houses.

So I would highly suggest you get back to doing some homework where international tax treaties apply. After all when Canada imposed a foreign buyer's tax of 20% (in some provinces), no specific country was alarmed.

[Balance]

There is no problem because international tax treaties are based around 'Income Taxation' and not on 'consumption' taxation such as sales tax or GST. Why does the media get this all wrong? The same argument can be said about NZ residents owning houses in Australia or Canada where THEIR tax laws apply CGT on non-residents while at the IRD end, there is no CGT applied on the sale of foreign owned houses.

So I would highly suggest you get back to doing some homework where international tax treaties apply. After all when Canada imposed a foreign buyer's tax of 20% (in some provinces), no specific country was alarmed.

Very well articulated and researched, SBQ.

One of the countries singled out as potentially affected by David Parker and the leftist scaremongers, Singapore, imposed a 60% (yes, 60%) tax in April this year on foreigners buying Singapore property! No impact whatsoever on Singapore’s FTA or tax treaty with NZ, let alone all the other countries Singapore has treaties & agreements with like Australia, China, US, UK, etc etc.

An excerpt from Bloomberg article :

“9If a foreigner were to buy a $5 million property in Singapore, they’d have to pay 65 percent in taxes, or about $3.25 million. In other major international hubs, the taxes would be much less: Foreigners in Vancouver and Hong Kong have a tax rate of 29 percent, while London, Melbourne, and Sydney are all in the 14 percent range. New York, in comparison, has a pretty low tax rate of just 4.3 percent.

Thanks to the change, foreigners are more likely to purchase property in nearby Hong Kong, Bloomberg noted. Those from mainland China, in particular, may see the region as much more appealing when compared with Singapore. Hong Kong currently charges a still-high 30 percent stamp duty on property purchases by foreigners—but if a homeowner becomes a permanent resident later on, most of that can be refunded, thanks to Hong Kong’s efforts to attract talent.”

https://robbreport.com/shelter/homes-for-sale/singapore-property-tax-rate-1234836305/

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think there's a couple of things going on here, that we haven't seen for a long while:

1. For the first time in a very long time, this is not an election on populist leader appeal, neither prospective PM is particularly personally appealing. It's not about popularity this time, maybe we should be grateful for that, for a change.

Which leads to,

2. For the first time in a very long time, this is an election on policy, and it will be a stern test of whether the centre right or the centre left, and their coalition partners, can tap into the psych of the population, and dole out the most appealing policies for the masses who vote.

I'm looking forward to this election, it will be a nice change from the many past popularity contests.

My only concern is that despite bad policy, designed only to attract votes, which both major parties are proposing, one will end up being elected. I suppose any government after being elected can change its mind, though the question is whether either of them have the gumption to face reality and do the right thing after they're elected.

I think both are duplicitous and neither have the gumption needed to do that. Win at all costs, dupe the population if you have to, anything to win.

You can be disgusted with that all you like, but when side is offering bribes then how would you fight that? "People, they are offering bribes but we will not offer one penny...we say 'ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'. We will lift wages through the strength of our prayers and our good wishes for the nations future. Please give us your votes out of the goodness of your hearts".

Don't blame the politicians, blame the voters. People have an expectation of all sorts of goodies, both in the budget and at election time. I maintain that when the Left simply hand out more and more 'free' (not free, must be paid for) stuff then the Right have no alternative but to offer tax cuts. Either the Right offers something to voters or the 'progressives' win every election and keep rolling out socialism.

Be disgusted with human nature if you must be disgusted with something. Voters are clearly flighty, flitting from party to party with a 'what have you done for me lately attitude'? Kids at a lolly scramble, innit. Meanwhile debt is piled up for future generations to deal with. That's what is disgusting.

[SBQ]

Be disgusted with human nature if you must be disgusted with something. Voters are clearly flighty, flitting from party to party with a 'what have you done for me lately attitude'? Kids at a lolly scramble, innit. Meanwhile debt is piled up for future generations to deal with. That's what is disgusting.

To put things in perspective, we need to understand that over the past 100 years, it's countries who were able to borrow had the greatest level of prosperity. While developing poor nations, because of their corrupt nature of their gov'ts, were not able to participate much in the economic growth that OECD nations achieved. This is not to say we should be having a free ticket to pile on more debt as we please but there's a strong distinction for nations that are 'able' to borrow, and those that simply 'can't' ; (I say can't because foreign banks don't have the appetite to take on that kind of risk). We can look at this on a micro level say, from a bank's point of view. Take the individual that has debt, who also has a high earning ability, but wants to borrow more debt vs the individual that comes to the bank with nothing, or a small chance they would be able to pay the debt back because a history of defaulting on prior loans, etc. Then you begin to understand how wealthy nations despite their massively rising debt (ie. the US) are able to borrow so easily simply because for future generations, they're most likely to pay it back.

[Panda-NZ-]

You can be disgusted with that all you like, but when side is offering bribes then how would you fight that? "People, they are offering bribes but we will not offer one penny...we say 'ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'. We will lift wages through the strength of our prayers and our good wishes for the nations future. Please give us your votes out of the goodness of your hearts".

National has given labour a $14b blank cheque and a justification for more promises.

Seems like a poor strategy to me.

[Logen Ninefingers]

National has given labour a $14b blank cheque and a justification for more promises.

Seems like a poor strategy to me.

But Labour hasn’t come up with any ways to raise additional revenue, it just continues with the reckless spending.

[Panda-NZ-]

But Labour hasn’t come up with any ways to raise additional revenue, it just continues with the reckless spending.

Keeping the tax system in place ie, no bright line changes, no tax cuts will fund it.

[Panda-NZ-]

Inflation and wage increases are both increasing NZ's revenue (National complains about that and says it should be "returned" to voters)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Inflation and wage increases are both increasing NZ's revenue (National complains about that and says it should be "returned" to voters)

You’re a big fan of high inflation now? Labours strategy is to spend like there is no tomorrow to try to force National into a corner, and then howl when National offers something to potential voters. It’s all very disingenuous. You think it’s a very clever strategy, but we’ll see come the election if it works.

[Balance]

You’re a big fan of high inflation now? Labours strategy is to spend like there is no tomorrow to try to force National into a corner, and then howl when National offers something to potential voters. It’s all very disingenuous. You think it’s a very clever strategy, but we’ll see come the election if it works.

You are wasting your time debating with panda-nz - an ignoramus Labour shill who wanted Ryman to load up on more debt to do a share buyback when the company was close to defaulting on its huge debt burden.

Labour will continue to borrow and spend wastefully with no heed of future consequences - it’s in this government’s dna.

[Blue Skies]

There is no problem because international tax treaties are based around 'Income Taxation' and not on 'consumption' taxation such as sales tax or GST. Why does the media get this all wrong? The same argument can be said about NZ residents owning houses in Australia or Canada where THEIR tax laws apply CGT on non-residents while at the IRD end, there is no CGT applied on the sale of foreign owned houses.

So I would highly suggest you get back to doing some homework where international tax treaties apply. After all when Canada imposed a foreign buyer's tax of 20% (in some provinces), no specific country was alarmed.




I wish this was more convincing, unfortunately its not!

Forget the media, or my homework, that's just a deflection from the fact National's next Minister of Finance has made a complete hash of the inflationary $14.6 Billion tax cuts policy according to growing numbers of International Tax & Trade Agreement experts.

Even Chris Luxon is sounding anything but solid & increasingly panicked, ...rock solid has morphed into we'll find a way.
They hadn't even considered this might break International Tax Agreements until 2 days after the policy was announced!


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/09/election-2023-pressure-piles-on-national-to-release-its-costings-and-advice-for-foreign-buyers-tax-in-wake-of-newshub-revelation.html

[Logen Ninefingers]

I wish this was more convincing, unfortunately its not!

Forget the media, or my homework, that's just a deflection from the fact National's next Minister of Finance has made a complete hash of the inflationary $14.6 Billion tax cuts policy according to growing numbers of International Tax & Trade Agreement experts.

Even Chris Luxon is sounding anything but solid & increasingly panicked, ...rock solid has morphed into we'll find a way.
They hadn't even considered this might break International Tax Agreements until 2 days after the policy was announced!


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/09/election-2023-pressure-piles-on-national-to-release-its-costings-and-advice-for-foreign-buyers-tax-in-wake-of-newshub-revelation.html

All the howling by the Left and the media - and you and red panda are doing your bit to amplify it as well - will not deter the many voters who can see quite clearly what is going on, with Labours endless bribes never being subjected to scrutiny while National are the victims of a massive pile-on whenever they announce anything.

Then we have the CTU launching an extremely negative American-style ‘attack ad’ campaign today, with front page ads in the New Zealand Herald attacking Christoper Luxon in a very personal way. This is truly sickening and will no doubt backfire on the Left, which is viewed in many quarters as corrupt & obsessed with clinging on to power at all costs. The nexus between the unions, the media, and the Labour party will no doubt come under closer scrutiny after the election, should the opposition overcome the powerful forces currently ranged against them.

[SBQ]

I wish this was more convincing, unfortunately its not!

Forget the media, or my homework, that's just a deflection from the fact National's next Minister of Finance has made a complete hash of the inflationary $14.6 Billion tax cuts policy according to growing numbers of International Tax & Trade Agreement experts.

Even Chris Luxon is sounding anything but solid & increasingly panicked, ...rock solid has morphed into we'll find a way.
They hadn't even considered this might break International Tax Agreements until 2 days after the policy was announced!


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/09/election-2023-pressure-piles-on-national-to-release-its-costings-and-advice-for-foreign-buyers-tax-in-wake-of-newshub-revelation.html

The tax cut is designed so gov'ts don't continue to over spend. Are you aware there's only ONE place & ONE entity, that causes inflation? Please make references to these 'experts' that say otherwise. They are certainly not from academics like Milton Friedman, where it's a known fact inflation is caused by gov't spending. Maybe you've have skipped the YouTube posts i've made on the sources of inflation?

Again I will reiterate, fact is Canada and Australia ALL have foreign buyers tax on residential properties. The National Party is doing the same thing and the rules are clear and cut. As I said before, Tax Treaties are around 'INCOME taxation". But if China ever does have a concern, you can be assured none of it would be upheld in international court because the fact is, as Winston Peters said many times before, "Can New Zealanders directly buy residential properties in China?" I would say China doesn't have a hope in chance of disputing this 15% buyers tax on their citizens when you and I can't even buy property there.

But let's not forget, the threshold is $2M whereas in Canada, it's on ANY value on ANY house. We've let foreign buyers off lightly in NZ with this threshold and would much prefer a blanket wide no exemption tax that other OECD nations have imposed.

You must be in the Red Panda camp that refuses how to do homework or a bit of research online about the facts. By all means, tell me what international tax treaties have to do? (psst... it's so individuals are not "DOUBLE taxed").

[Logen Ninefingers]

The tax cut is designed so gov'ts don't continue to over spend. Are you aware there's only ONE place & ONE entity, that causes inflation? Please make references to these 'experts' that say otherwise. They are certainly not from academics like Milton Friedman, where it's a known fact inflation is caused by gov't spending. Maybe you've have skipped the YouTube posts i've made on the sources of inflation?

Again I will reiterate, fact is Canada and Australia ALL have foreign buyers tax on residential properties. The National Party is doing the same thing and the rules are clear and cut. As I said before, Tax Treaties are around 'INCOME taxation". But if China ever does have a concern, you can be assured none of it would be upheld in international court because the fact is, as Winston Peters said many times before, "Can New Zealanders directly buy residential properties in China?" I would say China doesn't have a hope in chance of disputing this 15% buyers tax on their citizens when you and I can't even buy property there.

But let's not forget, the threshold is $2M whereas in Canada, it's on ANY value on ANY house. We've let foreign buyers off lightly in NZ with this threshold and would much prefer a blanket wide no exemption tax that other OECD nations have imposed.

You must be in the Red Panda camp that refuses how to do homework or a bit of research online about the facts. By all means, tell me what international tax treaties have to do? (psst... it's so individuals are not "DOUBLE taxed").

Excellent post with well made points. Labour will continue to announce new spending initiatives while at the same time they cut revenue (see ‘no GST on fruit & vegetables’). This is being done not for the benefit of the country, but in a cynical attempt to outmanoeuvre the opposition so Labour can continue to govern us all on behalf of the CTU.

[justakiwi]

If anyone here seriously believes that media cartoons or CTU adverts, are going to have any significant impact on voters, you are dreaming. Right now, a bunch of voters have already decided which party they are voting for (including left, centre, right leaning voters). Another bunch of Kiwis, never vote and won't vote this time. The final group consists of people like me, who are frustrated beyond belief, and literally still do not know who they will vote for.

Bunch 1 - are not going to change their minds so any media "propaganda" will have zero impact
Bunch 2 - are not interested in the election or voting, and won't be paying any attention to anything.
Bunch 3 - are responsible voters, who will not make their voting decision based on cartoons, adverts, Party Campaign "fluff" or party "sparring wars" or character assassinations.

So what the heck are you so het up about? Make your own voting decisions. Respect everyone's right to make theirs, whether you agree with it or not. Nobody knows for sure how this will pan out, and nobody knows for sure what the elected government will do in the future. They are all making promises. And anyone will half a brain knows full well, those promises mean next to nothing once a party is in the driver's seat. Especially in a coalition or Support Agreement situation. There are literally no guarantees about anything.

Just do your own homework, make your own vote on election day. That's all any of us can do. The rest is out of our hands.

[Logen Ninefingers]

If anyone here seriously believes that media cartoons or CTU adverts, are going to have any significant impact on voters, you are dreaming. Right now, a bunch of voters have already decided which party they are voting for (including left, centre, right leaning voters). Another bunch of Kiwis, never vote and won't vote this time. The final group consists of people like me, who are frustrated beyond belief, and literally still do not know who they will vote for.

Bunch 1 - are not going to change their minds so any media "propaganda" will have zero impact
Bunch 2 - are not interested in the election or voting, and won't be paying any attention to anything.
Bunch 3 - are responsible voters, who will not make their voting decision based on cartoons, adverts, Party Campaign "fluff" or party "sparring wars" or character assassinations.

So what the heck are you so het up about? Make your own voting decisions. Respect everyone's right to make theirs, whether you agree with it or not. Nobody knows for sure how this will pan out, and nobody knows for sure what the elected government will do in the future. They are all making promises. And anyone will half a brain knows full well, those promises mean next to nothing once a party is in the driver's seat. Especially in a coalition or Support Agreement situation. There are literally no guarantees about anything.

Just do your own homework, make your own vote on election day. That's all any of us can do. The rest is out of our hands.

So the voting public can be divided into 3 bunches….and not one of these bunches is (according to you) influenced by the media or by attack ads etc. Have a look at your post again if you doubt that: one bunch has apparently already made up their minds, one bunch don’t vote, and the third and final bunch - unsurprisingly labelled by you as ‘responsible voters’ as you are in this ‘bunch’ - are apparently not influenced by anything they see in the media or on a billboard.

Which begs the question: why would anyone run a campaign of attack ads? Why would left wing cartoonists constantly attack political parties that they clearly hate with a passion? Research indicates that anger causes people to engage more than they otherwise would. Clearly people who aim to demonise opponents hope to make their supporters angry enough about whoever is being demonised that they go and vote. So it’s very much a tactic aimed at energising and motivating a particular support base.

[SBQ]

If anyone here seriously believes that media cartoons or CTU adverts, are going to have any significant impact on voters, you are dreaming. Right now, a bunch of voters have already decided which party they are voting for (including left, centre, right leaning voters). Another bunch of Kiwis, never vote and won't vote this time. The final group consists of people like me, who are frustrated beyond belief, and literally still do not know who they will vote for.

Bunch 1 - are not going to change their minds so any media "propaganda" will have zero impact
Bunch 2 - are not interested in the election or voting, and won't be paying any attention to anything.
Bunch 3 - are responsible voters, who will not make their voting decision based on cartoons, adverts, Party Campaign "fluff" or party "sparring wars" or character assassinations.

So what the heck are you so het up about? Make your own voting decisions. Respect everyone's right to make theirs, whether you agree with it or not. Nobody knows for sure how this will pan out, and nobody knows for sure what the elected government will do in the future. They are all making promises. And anyone will half a brain knows full well, those promises mean next to nothing once a party is in the driver's seat. Especially in a coalition or Support Agreement situation. There are literally no guarantees about anything.

Just do your own homework, make your own vote on election day. That's all any of us can do. The rest is out of our hands.

There's a problem with that belief. You have people that refuse to do the homework, or look into each party candidate, or simply don't care and forever vote with the same party time after time. Yes there's a large part of the population that don't have the critical thinking when it comes to politics and will just vote on the basis that "oh that person seems to be a nice guy or girl". From this angle this is so stupid. But when it comes to buying a new TV or a dishwasher, people spend a lot of time figuring out what's the best deal, what features they want, warranty, etc. To me, if the person voting does not make the effort to understand the situation NZ faces, then they should not be voting at all. If they have been told lies about a particular election party, then they should not be voting at all.

Don't worry. My cousin's husband is a staunch believer that ONLY the people that pay taxes should have the right to vote. I don't think i'm being that extreme

[Panda-NZ-]

The tax cut is designed so gov'ts don't continue to over spend. Are you aware there's only ONE place & ONE entity, that causes inflation? Please make references to these 'experts' that say otherwise. They are certainly not from academics like Milton Friedman, where it's a known fact inflation is caused by gov't spending. Maybe you've have skipped the YouTube posts i've made on the sources of inflation?


Wise sage milton freidman was dead wrong on the minimum wage, and competition.

Tax cuts are also a source of inflation, particuarly debt funded tax cuts.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Wise sage milton freidman was dead wrong on the minimum wage, and competition.

Tax cuts are also a source of inflation, particuarly debt funded tax cuts.

I suppose Karl Marx is the only ‘economist’ you agree with.

‘Tax cuts funded by debt’ - case in point, Labour chopping GST from fruit and vegetables.

[Panda-NZ-]

I suppose Karl Marx is the only ‘economist’ you agree with.

I agree with the mainstream not kooks.

Even an organisation like the IMF says rampant inequality is reducing GDP growth.

[justakiwi]

I agree with you. But those people you are talking about more than likely fit into Bunch 1. They have always voted Party X and always will. OR, they voted Party X last time and are determined not to do so this time round. In most cases they have made their minds up and won't be swayed to changed it.


There's a problem with that belief. You have people that refuse to do the homework, or look into each party candidate, or simply don't care and forever vote with the same party time after time. Yes there's a large part of the population that don't have the critical thinking when it comes to politics and will just vote on the basis that "oh that person seems to be a nice guy or girl". From this angle this is so stupid. But when it comes to buying a new TV or a dishwasher, people spend a lot of time figuring out what's the best deal, what features they want, warranty, etc.

Again, I agree, and many people will do just that - not vote. I have had conversations with all manner of people lately, and have been quite shocked to hear people who have always voted, saying they are not going to bother this time "because it won't make any difference." I doubt many of those people are going to take too much notice of a cartoon or union advert. I say "shocked" but I actually do understand why they are making that choice, even though I don't agree with it. I am personally spending way more time and energy than is good for me, trying to make my decision, and it is creating more than a little stress. So I can understand the temptation to just say "oh **** it. I'm over it." I don't agree with that, but I do understand it.

Things are very different this time round. As I have said before, this is the first time I have been faced with such a dilemma over what to do with my votes. It is not as cut and dried as some here are making out. I am not happy or comfortable making a decision to vote for a party whose values and policies (for what little they are worth) do not align with my own, purely as a means to vote out the current government (whose values and policies also, no longer align with my own). Right now ACT worries me more than NAT does, so the fact that there is very little doubt we will end up with a NAT/ACT coalition, is not just something I can ignore.



To me, if the person voting does not make the effort to understand the situation NZ faces, then they should not be voting at all.

[ithaka]

It is not as cut and dried as some here are making out.
There is ONE issue that should trump all others in any thinking voter's mind - that is the orchestrated and deceitful destruction of NZ democracy by the co-governance brigade.
All other issues are akin to re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.