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10-07-2020, 09:30 AM
Jane Clifton on form again in BusinessDesk

The errant politicos were all exponents of the surprisingly common philosophy that when you’re in a hole, the only sensible course is vigorous further excavation in the hope of tunnelling your way out. ...

This only ever ends with the hole being filled in by others from a great height with you in it, as the likes of Jami-Lee Ross, Todd Barclay, Clare Curran and now National MP Hamish Walker have found out.
Walker’s leaking of the names of covid patients to the media was simply the most novel of the week’s pratfalls, with the biggest collateral damage.
It’s not often a first-term MP manages to get both a party kuia like Michelle Boag, and their own leader into the hole digging alongside them, with the bonus possibility of knocking precious points off the polls going into an election campaign.


And I love the imagery here

The long-time public relations maven bestrides the party as a sort of Boaganvillea – a brightly-plumed climber, extensively branched and with many sharp thorns.
Her lack of judgement in on-leaking this data to Walker is gob-smacking for such a seasoned operator.
Seldom has a party deity so drastically forfeited decades of influence

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/jane-clifton-a-conga-line-of-eejits (Paywall)

Bjauck
10-07-2020, 09:53 AM
...And I love the imagery here

The long-time public relations maven bestrides the party as a sort of Boaganvillea – a brightly-plumed climber, extensively branched and with many sharp thorns....

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/jane-clifton-a-conga-line-of-eejits (Paywall) ROFL definitely a Bogan-villea - That is a great turn of phrase. She was always a divisive figure even in the Nat Party itself.

..and now with Woodhouse, we have two MPs to whom she leaked the information. (Do we have three?) It is not surprising Muller claimed that he did not ask his caucus who had received the information. He could put on a front of channelling Private Shulz and say “I know nothing!”

However if Boag helped steer the Rescue Trust helicopter base to Ardmore, then hats off for that?

Joshuatree
10-07-2020, 11:08 AM
Jane Clifton on form again in BusinessDesk

The errant politicos were all exponents of the surprisingly common philosophy that when you’re in a hole, the only sensible course is vigorous further excavation in the hope of tunnelling your way out. ...

This only ever ends with the hole being filled in by others from a great height with you in it, as the likes of Jami-Lee Ross, Todd Barclay, Clare Curran and now National MP Hamish Walker have found out.
Walker’s leaking of the names of covid patients to the media was simply the most novel of the week’s pratfalls, with the biggest collateral damage.
It’s not often a first-term MP manages to get both a party kuia like Michelle Boag, and their own leader into the hole digging alongside them, with the bonus possibility of knocking precious points off the polls going into an election campaign.


And I love the imagery here

The long-time public relations maven bestrides the party as a sort of Boaganvillea – a brightly-plumed climber, extensively branched and with many sharp thorns.
Her lack of judgement in on-leaking this data to Walker is gob-smacking for such a seasoned operator.
Seldom has a party deity so drastically forfeited decades of influence

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/jane-clifton-a-conga-line-of-eejits (Paywall)

Thats is very funny and witty.How could this "kuia" get much stupida".. So much for having a robust opposition party keeping the Govt to account they cant even account for themselves! I guess we will just have to unrely on unbalanced.

Balance
10-07-2020, 11:47 AM
So clear that Boag thought she could get back into the game after being locked out by Key & Bridges.

Good riddance to rubbish! 👍😁

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347030

Xerof
11-07-2020, 02:43 PM
Whatever rebound in the opinion polls Muller picked up will surely have been given back, and more, after his "shambolic" week. Talk about own goals, lol

It'll be interesting to see the next poll results, which may well be out tomorrow, but I think Boag's action has killed any chance the Nats might have had (however slim that was anyway)

And no, I'm not a rabid Labour supporter, just telling it as I see it.

artemis
11-07-2020, 04:10 PM
Helen Clark was a master (mistress?) at taking fast action and closing down issues. John Key similarly. Usually the issues faded away, though I note that 'Oravida' still pops up whenever Judith Collins looks like a threat. Not sure anyone remembers, or cares, what it was about though.

Todd Muller has not covered himself with glory in the last few days but he was fairly (only fairly) decisive in the end. I expect he has learned an important lesson.

Blue Skies
11-07-2020, 04:58 PM
Helen Clark was a master (mistress?) at taking fast action and closing down issues. John Key similarly. Usually the issues faded away, though I note that 'Oravida' still pops up whenever Judith Collins looks like a threat. Not sure anyone remembers, or cares, what it was about though.

Todd Muller has not covered himself with glory in the last few days but he was fairly (only fairly) decisive in the end. I expect he has learned an important lesson.



One of the Herald's business reporters has suggested there's more to come out on this story.

Imo Todd Muller needs to fire Woodhouse too & he's going to be a lingering sore.
Deleting the emails after learning there was going to be a Commission of Enquiry casts serious doubts around his integrity, but the photo of Woodhouse, the shadow minister of Health, holding up a toilet seat with a photo of a womens face on it as a trophy will come back to haunt him & would go around the world's media if he was ever to become a Minister of Health in a National Govt.
Can you imagine Muller awkwardly trying to explain that away to UK media or CNN etc.

Baa_Baa
11-07-2020, 06:37 PM
One of the Herald's business reporters has suggested there's more to come out on this story.

Imo Todd Muller needs to fire Woodhouse too & he's going to be a lingering sore.
Deleting the emails after learning there was going to be a Commission of Enquiry casts serious doubts around his integrity, but the photo of Woodhouse, the shadow minister of Health, holding up a toilet seat with a photo of a womens face on it as a trophy will come back to haunt him & would go around the world's media if he was ever to become a Minister of Health in a National Govt.
Can you imagine Muller awkwardly trying to explain that away to UK media or CNN etc.

Assuming he’s using the Parliamentary Service computer, he can’t actually delete anything completely. The computers are regularly backed up. Even if they weren’t, the recycle bin will have those deleted files in it. Even if that didn’t work, deleted files leave a ‘shadow’ that can be recovered using forensic data software. Question is probably less about deleting them and recovering, more about why this low life had them in the first place and then tried to cover his tracks by removing them. Muller sure has his hands full with these miscreants surfacing every week, seems he needs to ‘drain the swamp’ quickly or there’s no hope of a non controversial lead in to the election. Arguably He’s toast already.

tim23
12-07-2020, 10:27 AM
One of the Herald's business reporters has suggested there's more to come out on this story.

Imo Todd Muller needs to fire Woodhouse too & he's going to be a lingering sore.
Deleting the emails after learning there was going to be a Commission of Enquiry casts serious doubts around his integrity, but the photo of Woodhouse, the shadow minister of Health, holding up a toilet seat with a photo of a womens face on it as a trophy will come back to haunt him & would go around the world's media if he was ever to become a Minister of Health in a National Govt.
Can you imagine Muller awkwardly trying to explain that away to UK media or CNN etc.

Just imagining him as the next PM is bad enough...

fungus pudding
12-07-2020, 11:45 AM
Just imagining him as the next PM is bad enough...

You needn't fear. It's unlikely he will win, and if he did you would be escaping a useless mob with a charismatic leader - which is worse then an excellent mob with a useless leader.

Blue Skies
12-07-2020, 12:01 PM
Unfolding disaster watching Nikki Kaye being interviewed by Jack Tame on Q+A this morning (watch again on TVNZ on Demand, or Q+A on Facebook).
But good on her for fronting when Muller, Boag, Walker all refused to be interviewed.

Following interview, panelist Shane TePou points out next week could be even worse due Michael Woodhouse declaring he hadn't opened the emails he received from Boag & had not read them, but subsequently saying the contents of the emails he received from Boag were different from the emails Boag sent to Hamish Walker therefore Todd Muller was not lying when Muller said no when asked if any other National MP had been sent patient info by Boag.
If he hadn't opened & read them, how did he know the contents were different?


With questions even being raised now if it's too close to the election to replace Todd Muller (with Judith Collins), this is going to be an interesting next few weeks.

tim23
12-07-2020, 05:27 PM
You needn't fear. It's unlikely he will win, and if he did you would be escaping a useless mob with a charismatic leader - which is worse then an excellent mob with a useless leader.

Yes Labour have an exceptional leader with charisma - not sure about the Nats being an excellent lot I think thats a bit generous.

Bjauck
12-07-2020, 06:42 PM
The Nats have wasted time with Bridges and Muller - bring on Crusher Collins!

tim23
12-07-2020, 07:44 PM
The Nats have wasted time with Bridges and Muller - bring on Crusher Collins!

Yes you have to wonder why they chose Muller; Collins or even Mitchell seemed far better options. Muller doesn't offer anything, hard to think that he can turn it around.

Blue Skies
12-07-2020, 07:51 PM
You needn't fear. It's unlikely he will win, and if he did you would be escaping a useless mob with a charismatic leader - which is worse then an excellent mob with a useless leader.


I used to think National were an excellent mob too, but after their brightest & smartest got completely screwed over on the Skycity deal,
ignored all the scientific advice on meth contamination causing hundreds of people to be evicted from perfectly safe homes & costing home owners & landlords hundreds of thousand of dollars unnecessarily stripping out houses,
sold off all those state house which they now say was a mistake & cost the taxpayer millions rehousing people in motels,
the teacher shortage & disgraceful leaky school classrooms scandal, children in classrooms with water pouring down the walls when it rained.
ignored the growing & dangerously long hospital waiting lists,
continually denied there was a housing problem in Auckland when it was plainly obvious,
ignored the huge discrepancy in treatment of cancer patients across NZ,
the chronically underfunded Southern DHB & Dunedin hospital problems,
the fiasco over the Transmission Gully project & the PPP's,
the Christchurch Rebuild mess,
the SERCO Prison debacle,
the selling off of large significant NZ farmland to overseas interests,
massive immigration without the infrastructure to support it,
the shocking state of Middlemore & other hospitals
etc,
I started to have a few doubts about how competent their mob actually were.

fungus pudding
12-07-2020, 10:09 PM
The Nats have wasted time with Bridges and Muller - bring on Crusher Collins!

That would cause a huge dilemma in the life of Pudding. I could not vote for National with Collins at the helm, and I could not vote for Labour with Twyford, Lees Galloway and others so high up their ladder. That's frightening. Best thing about this election is a likely rise in Act's vote, and hopefully the end of Winston Peters.

Bjauck
12-07-2020, 11:19 PM
That would cause a huge dilemma in the life of Pudding. I could not vote for National with Collins at the helm, and I could not vote for Labour with Twyford, Lees Galloway and others so high up their ladder. That's frightening. Best thing about this election is a likely rise in Act's vote, and hopefully the end of Winston Peters.
A senior family member, a life-long voter for the Nats, is in a dilemma at the moment. Although they like Ardern, they won’t vote Labour. It seems most likely they will jump ship to ACT.

blackcap
13-07-2020, 05:54 AM
A senior family member, a life-long voter for the Nats, is in a dilemma at the moment. Although they like Ardern, they won’t vote Labour. It seems most likely they will jump ship to ACT.

That is interesting but no surprising. That rumbling is also prevalent in our household. Muller and National have become idiots and we will now not vote Nats, but we also cannot vote Labour so it is quite probable that Act get our vote.

Baa_Baa
13-07-2020, 06:46 AM
That is interesting but no surprising. That rumbling is also prevalent in our household. Muller and National have become idiots and we will now not vote Nats, but we also cannot vote Labour so it is quite probable that Act get our vote.

Ditto, interesting other people thinking similarly

tga_trader
13-07-2020, 06:57 AM
Ditto, interesting other people thinking similarly

Ditto to your ditto and I've heard the same from many people. It's going to be a very interesting election.

fungus pudding
13-07-2020, 08:12 AM
Ditto to your ditto and I've heard the same from many people. It's going to be a very interesting election.

Yes. I think Act will do well this time and be extremely well positioned by the 2023 election. Even Ms. Pudding is leaning their way; always was but more-so after going to listen to David Seymour last week. National should have their leadership sorted out by then, and voters will have discovered that behind Jacinda and Robertson there is ......nothing. So I think I'll just be kind to everyone and watch the world go by for the next 3 years which I've written off for National.

dobby41
13-07-2020, 09:10 AM
National need to stop their propensity to run a dirty campaign.
They are a shambles (to use Muller's favourite word).
At the moment they couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag let alone manage the country.

Panda-NZ-
13-07-2020, 09:57 AM
National would have nothing to run on if the RMA was reformed, so maybe Act can help Labour to pass the changes they want to make. I've been impressed with the conviction of their (though rare) deviation from National and bipartisanship on social issues.

Their list is not very diverse though and includes some "pro-gun" people..

macduffy
13-07-2020, 10:00 AM
National need to stop their propensity to run a dirty campaign.
They are a shambles (to use Muller's favourite word).
At the moment they couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag let alone manage the country.

Sadly, that's pretty much the situation. Not a great deal of choice come September, between two unattractive major parties and/or the minnows.

blackcap
13-07-2020, 10:28 AM
Their list is not very diverse though and includes some "pro-gun" people..

What is wrong with "pro-gun" people? I am a pro-gun person, I like to hunt and will sometimes bring home some bacon (literally) or even better some venison for the family.

As for diversity, I see plenty there. There is a former policeman, a civil engineer, a business owner, a corporate affairs consultant, a self-employed mother, an activist...... it goes on. A lot of diversity as far as I can tell.

Blue Skies
13-07-2020, 10:48 AM
National would have nothing to run on if the RMA was reformed, so maybe Act can help Labour to pass the changes they want to make. I've been impressed with the conviction of their (though rare) deviation from National and bipartisanship on social issues.

Their list is not very diverse though and includes some "pro-gun" people..



ACT have 13 firearm owners on their party list including passionate gun lobbyist Nicole Mckee 3rd on the list and a 27 year old backroom staffer 2nd on the list.
Seriously who in their right mind would put the responsibility for governing the country in the hands of these people?
My impression of Seymour after meeting him is a friendly guy but seriously deluded with a very idealistic but unworldly immature view of the world. Like a teenage son or daughter who is adamant they know everything but actually not.

We have just got around 60,000 mainly military style semi automatic weapons taken out of circulation in NZ, & the next step is a gun register so we know who owns these weapons.
Like the smoking cessation programs, it won't stop everyone smoking at once but with the ongoing reduction in a few years time it will be very hard for criminals & gangs to obtain these military style weapons.
The Police strongly support this as do most of the country.
ACT voted against these reforms.

Panda-NZ-
13-07-2020, 11:00 AM
What is wrong with "pro-gun" people? I am a pro-gun person, I like to hunt and will sometimes bring home some bacon (literally) or even better some venison for the family.

As for diversity, I see plenty there. There is a former policeman, a civil engineer, a business owner, a corporate affairs consultant, a self-employed mother, an activist...... it goes on. A lot of diversity as far as I can tell.

Looking at the photos (rather going by the names in the news) it does seem slightly more diverse than I thought, at least compared to National. The gender ratio can be improved. Maybe brooke should be number one since she could conceivably attract people from the left.

Panda-NZ-
13-07-2020, 11:07 AM
ACT have 13 firearm owners on their party list including passionate gun lobbyist Nicole Mckee 3rd on the list and a 27 year old backroom staffer 2nd on the list.
Seriously who in their right mind would put the responsibility for governing the country in the hands of these people?
My impression of Seymour after meeting him is a friendly guy but seriously deluded with a very idealistic but unworldly immature view of the world. Like a teenage son or daughter who is adamant they know everything but actually not.

We have just got around 60,000 mainly military style semi automatic weapons taken out of circulation in NZ, & the next step is a gun register so we know who owns these weapons.
Like the smoking cessation programs, it won't stop everyone smoking at once but with the ongoing reduction in a few years time it will be very hard for criminals & gangs to obtain these military style weapons.
The Police strongly support this as do most of the country.
ACT voted against these reforms.

Yes they are fans of the American, rather than European approach to things. despite them being an epic failure. wasn't it act who came up with the three strikes policy?
How does being tough on crime gel with their priority for freedom in most other areas.

blackcap
13-07-2020, 11:33 AM
Looking at the photos (rather than the names in the news) it does look slightly more diverse than I thought,

How can looking at photo's imply diversity? That is one weird way of looking at things mate.

Normally I can tell very little about a person and their views by looking at a photo.

fungus pudding
13-07-2020, 11:41 AM
Looking at the photos (rather than the names in the news) it does look slightly more diverse than I thought, at least compared to National. The gender ratio can be improved. Maybe brooke should be number one since she could conceivably attract people from the left of politics.

There is something seriously stupid about picking candidates based on gender.

Panda-NZ-
13-07-2020, 11:44 AM
They will be voting on issues unique to women like healthcare and family leave. it doesn't help when there aren't many around the table when these decisions are made.

fungus pudding
13-07-2020, 11:50 AM
They will be voting on issues unique to women like healthcare and family leave. it doesn't help when there aren't many around the table when these decisions are made.

By 'they' I assume you mean women. I suggest you should reply to the quote.

tim23
13-07-2020, 11:56 AM
National need to stop their propensity to run a dirty campaign.
They are a shambles (to use Muller's favourite word).
At the moment they couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag let alone manage the country.

Quite right - his other favourite word is perspective he used it so many times when being grilled by journos over the Walker issue, twice in the same short sentence!

Blue Skies
13-07-2020, 11:58 AM
There is something seriously stupid about picking candidates based on gender.



Not at all, its absolutely undeniable women especially women with young children have a different perspective on things from say elderly white males which tend to dominate many boardrooms & political parties.
A good example is during the GFC banks with strong women representation on their boards tended to fair miles better due to being more secure.
Males tend to be more selfish, have bigger egos, take higher risks, look shorter term, & be more competitive with each other.
Women tend to be more collaborative, look longer term, less ego driven etc.

So a good mix often provides the best outcomes. You need risk takers with some risk aversion, & it's unacceptable in this day and age for older men to be solely making decisions around issues which strongly affect women.

fungus pudding
13-07-2020, 12:03 PM
Not at all, its absolutely undeniable women especially women with young children have a different perspective on things from say elderly white males which tend to dominate many boardrooms & political parties.
A good example is during the GFC banks with strong women representation on their boards tended to fair miles better due to being more secure.
Males tend to be more selfish, have bigger egos, take higher risks, look shorter term, & be more competitive with each other.
Women tend to be more collaborative, look longer term, less ego driven etc.

So a good mix often provides the best outcomes. You need risk takers with some risk aversion, & it's unacceptable in this day and age for older men to be solely making decisions around issues which strongly affect women.

I don't doubt that a mix is desirable, but I have huge reservations about quotas. I can't see anything good in selecting a mediocre man (or woman) over a particularly bright woman (or man).

Panda-NZ-
13-07-2020, 12:07 PM
I don't doubt that a mix is desirable, but I have huge reservations about quotas. I can't see anything good in selecting a mediocre man (or woman) over a particularly bright woman (or man).

It's not entirely based on that though esp in politics. Those who can effectively "play the game or system" will rise to the top more often. unfortunately the reality of this can sometimes lend itself more to male characteristics.

This is why it can be a small part of the solution. It's easy to say things are merit based from the perspective of an NZ white elderly male.

fungus pudding
13-07-2020, 02:38 PM
It's not entirely based on that though esp in politics. Those who can effectively "play the game or system" rise to the top more often. unfortunately the reality of this can sometimes lend itself more to male characteristics.

This is why it can be a small part of the solution. It's easy to say things are merit based from the perspective of a white elderly male.

Not a hint of objective thinking in that post.

Zaphod
13-07-2020, 04:22 PM
Not at all, its absolutely undeniable women especially women with young children have a different perspective on things from say elderly white males which tend to dominate many boardrooms & political parties.
A good example is during the GFC banks with strong women representation on their boards tended to fair miles better due to being more secure.
Males tend to be more selfish, have bigger egos, take higher risks, look shorter term, & be more competitive with each other.
Women tend to be more collaborative, look longer term, less ego driven etc.

So a good mix often provides the best outcomes. You need risk takers with some risk aversion, & it's unacceptable in this day and age for older men to be solely making decisions around issues which strongly affect women.

The differences you've outlined above appear to be generalised extrapolations of the results of the psychological study of gender differences. The results of such studies paint a fairly clear picture of similarities and differences along the major axis of neuroticism, agreeableness, conscientiousness, extraversion and openness, from an intra-cultural perspective, but I would be extremely cautious attributing many of those lower level generalised behaviours (e.g. looking longer-term) with gender as the outcomes of research is not clear. The interplay between the axis on actual organisational performance further complicates the results.

I would agree that generally speaking, diversity does provide benefits.

Zaphod
13-07-2020, 04:26 PM
I don't doubt that a mix is desirable, but I have huge reservations about quotas. I can't see anything good in selecting a mediocre man (or woman) over a particularly bright woman (or man).

You're right, quotas can introduce even more problems. One of the primary issues lies in the availability of talent. There's a strong correlation between gender, ethnicity, etc. and the selection of specific professions. This can reduce the overall number of candidates available to select, and thereby increase the likelihood of drawing an average or below average candidate from the pool.

Getting a bit off topic I suppose, so I shouldn't go on about this in the National thread.

Blue Skies
13-07-2020, 05:15 PM
I don't doubt that a mix is desirable, but I have huge reservations about quotas. I can't see anything good in selecting a mediocre man (or woman) over a particularly bright woman (or man).


Yes fair enough, while desirable, no one wants to lose an outstanding candidate for the sake of imposing an inflexible quota system.

Bjauck
14-07-2020, 06:44 AM
I know NUTH-ing Todd Muller gone from the leadership already.

Given the unprecedented crisis and stresses facing the leadership of country, perhaps having two co-leaders would be the way to go?

blackcap
14-07-2020, 06:48 AM
I know NUTH-ing Todd Muller gone from the leadership already.

Good, he was as woke and left as they come. Good riddance.

fungus pudding
14-07-2020, 07:13 AM
I know NUTH-ing Todd Muller gone from the leadership already.

Given the unprecedented crisis and stresses facing the leadership of country, perhaps having two co-leaders would be the way to go?

Never. Leader and deputy in the traditional sense. Co-leadership is nonsense.

dobby41
14-07-2020, 07:19 AM
I know NUTH-ing Todd Muller gone from the leadership already.

Given the unprecedented crisis and stresses facing the leadership of country, perhaps having two co-leaders would be the way to go?

Gone in a flash - glad he wasn't trying to lead the country during a crisis.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12347798
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12347793

National is shambolic - what a joke.

fungus pudding
14-07-2020, 07:23 AM
Gone in a flash - glad he wasn't trying to lead the country during a crisis.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12347798
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12347793

National is shambolic - what a joke.

Look at Labour's achievements against their in-going promises. Is that not more shambolic?

blackcap
14-07-2020, 07:28 AM
Gone in a flash - glad he wasn't trying to lead the country during a crisis.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12347798
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12347793

National is shambolic - what a joke.

Agree National is as shambolic as Labour and definitely not up to par for their high standards. Time for an alternative, ACT or NC possibly.

dobby41
14-07-2020, 07:31 AM
Look at Labour's achievements against their in-going promises. Is that not more shambolic?

No it's not.

Panda-NZ-
14-07-2020, 07:37 AM
Simon bridges back in for a second stint?

The people who rolled him are looking pretty silly now.

winner69
14-07-2020, 07:41 AM
Probably try that tragic Bishop now

Baa_Baa
14-07-2020, 07:51 AM
Probably try that tragic Bishop now

Luxon, Kaye, Collins …?

iceman
14-07-2020, 07:56 AM
Luxon, Kaye, Collins …?

Can't be Luxon as they select from current MPs don;t they, which is dumb, particularly this close to an election. Maybe they should bring back Joyce !
But agree, this is shambolic, just as Labour was a few weeks out from the last election. That didn't stop Winston going with the loser of the election !

Xerof
14-07-2020, 08:00 AM
Luxon, Kaye, Collins …?

Luxon's not even in Parliament

No-one is going to pick up this poison chalice. Either Kaye runs them through to the inevitable landslide defeat, as caretaker, or a non-ambitious alternative steps in - Gerry, Gerry. They just need to settle down, and look to 2024

Panda-NZ-
14-07-2020, 08:01 AM
Lab/Gre/Top recieved more than National/Act.
The combined opposition recieved 55%.

Someone sneaky has edited the next election's wiki page lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Zealand_general_election

dobby41
14-07-2020, 08:01 AM
Luxon, Kaye, Collins …?

Luxon - how do you elect someone who isn't even in parliament?
Wrong election for Luxon.

BlackPeter
14-07-2020, 08:08 AM
Luxon's not even in Parliament

No-one is going to pick up this poison chalice. Either Kaye runs them through to the inevitable landslide defeat, as caretaker, or a non-ambitious alternative steps in - Gerry, Gerry. They just need to settle down, and look to 2024

Don't we have three year election cycles? 2020 plus 3 equals 2024?

winner69
14-07-2020, 08:09 AM
Louise Upston has a nice smile and been around for a while

Balance
14-07-2020, 08:09 AM
Toddy has done the right and honorable thing but what has happened points a dagger at the heart of National - they have chosen 2 dud leaders in a row!

Expect ACT to be a huge beneficiary of the debacle - a good thing under the circumstances for NZ.

As for Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents - NZ will be the biggest loser out of all of this as one can envisage more & bigger disasters ahead from them if they get re-elected as government.

The shambolic disaster which is Kiwibuild is but a foretaste of what Comrade Cindy is about - big promises with zero chance of delivery.

Panda-NZ-
14-07-2020, 08:11 AM
Why did he roll simon?

he said he had a plan but couldnt deliver any specifics. The gst policy and bribe for jobs were from Simon not him.

dobby41
14-07-2020, 08:17 AM
Why did he roll simon?

he said he had a plan but couldnt deliver any specifics. The gst policy and bribe for jobs were from Simon

You have to wonder don't you.
He had a plan to make it all better, he was the man for the job. Turns out he was just a dreamer - he had a dream.

winner69
14-07-2020, 08:18 AM
Dr Shane Reti might get the job

But he might have been on Boags mailing list.

dobby41
14-07-2020, 08:18 AM
As for Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents - NZ will be the biggest loser out of all of this as one can envisage more & bigger disasters ahead from them if they get re-elected as government.

The shambolic disaster which is Kiwibuild is but a foretaste of what Comrade Cindy is about - big promises with zero chance of delivery.
National doesn't stand a chance.
Maybe they can get their act together in time for 2023.

Sideshow Bob
14-07-2020, 08:20 AM
Muller looked dammed uncomforable last week with the whole Walker/Boag/Woodhouse episode and obviously got caught out telling a wee fib - IMO. Probably jumped before blew up further......

fungus pudding
14-07-2020, 08:22 AM
National doesn't stand a chance.
Maybe they can get their act together in time for 2023.

Yes. Labour / Greens will win by default; hopefully without Winston and his mob.
And when all said and done that won't be too bad - given their inability to get anything done.

Balance
14-07-2020, 08:25 AM
You have to wonder don't you.
He had a plan to make it all better, he was the man for the job. Turns out he was just a dreamer - he had a dream.

Better he accepts reality than drag the pain on for everyone.

Raz
14-07-2020, 08:25 AM
Yes. Labour / Greens will win by default; hopefully without Winston and his mob.
And when all said and done that won't be too bad - given their inability to get anything done.

Except identity politics in everything..NZ first, people do not fess up to supporting them, so like Trump..just wait and see...

beetills
14-07-2020, 08:26 AM
Trouble with Muller was that he couldn't answer a question with a frown,swish his hair and point to another sycophant sitting in the gallery.
Maybe he had to much integrity.

Panda-NZ-
14-07-2020, 08:29 AM
Going on the media to tell untruths all the time, affecting some people's mental health and the prospects for our economic recovery, for a political reason... does not strike me as integrity imo.

Balance
14-07-2020, 08:30 AM
Trouble with Muller was that he couldn't answer a question with a frown,swish his hair and point to another sycophant sitting in the gallery.
Maybe he had to much integrity.

He is no politician. And that is a compliment indeed!

Panda-NZ-
14-07-2020, 08:31 AM
He is no politician. And that is a compliment indeed!

He was part of a team under Theo which trashed fonterra so it would be best for him to retire rather than shuffle sideways to a board somewhere.

BlackPeter
14-07-2020, 08:32 AM
Toddy has done the right and honorable thing but what has happened points a dagger at the heart of National - they have chosen 2 dud leaders in a row!

Expect ACT to be a huge beneficiary of the debacle - a good thing under the circumstances for NZ.

As for Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents - NZ will be the biggest loser out of all of this as one can envisage more & bigger disasters ahead from them if they get re-elected as government. Kiwibuild is but a foretaste.

Agree that ACT will gain from this debacle. Not so sure though, whether this is a good thing for NZ. While I used to support them in the past - I find it really difficult to support them now since they work hard to turn their party into the NZ wing of the NRA.

While I see that there are people who feel that their right to wear semiautomatic weapons is more important than a working democracy, a good health system, tackling climate change, addressing child poverty, improving state education or repairing our justice system (to name just some of the problems we are facing) ... do I fail to understand how anybody can focus in this day and age on the firearm laws (and they clearly don't wont to make the more stringent).

Anyway - ACT lost me ... but I am sure that the bunch of trigger happy gun owners they are now courting will make up for this loss. Pity - no liberal party left in NZ.

Raz
14-07-2020, 08:35 AM
Agree that ACT will gain from this debacle. Not so sure though, whether this is a good thing for NZ. While I used to support them in the past - I find it really difficult to support them now since they work hard to turn their party into the NZ wing of the NRA.

While I see that there are people who feel that their right to wear semiautomatic weapons is more important than a working democracy, a good health system, tackling climate change, addressing child poverty, improving state education or repairing our justice system (to name just some of the problems we are facing) ... do I fail to understand how anybody can focus in this day and age on the firearm laws (and they clearly don't wont to make the more stringent).

Anyway - ACT lost me ... but I am sure that the bunch of trigger happy gun owners they are now courting will make up for this loss. Pity - no liberal party left in NZ.

There are votes in the gun lobby..they did not like the overreach on pure emotion last year. That group are the most passionate i meet in this country on any issue!

dobby41
14-07-2020, 08:37 AM
Better he accepts reality than drag the pain on for everyone.

It is a wonder that the caucus didn't see that at the start.
Poor judgement for all of them.

dobby41
14-07-2020, 08:38 AM
He is no politician. And that is a compliment indeed!

Reminds me of David Shearer.
He had the same problem - smart guys but can't manage the politics.

Sideshow Bob
14-07-2020, 08:54 AM
Reminds me of David Shearer.
He had the same problem - smart guys but can't manage the politics.

Shearer came across as probably a top guy - just not a (good) politician.

pierre
14-07-2020, 09:14 AM
Times like these one has to be grateful we have a three-year election cycle. Another three years of Cindy and Grant will be bad enough - but the thought of another 4 or 5 years would encourage emigration - if there was anywhere safe to go!

Panda-NZ-
14-07-2020, 09:18 AM
Bye then and forfeit your right to return when climate change comes knocking. No dual citizenship.

fundamentally we need people who want to be here for the long term, and there are plenty who do at our border even before this crisis. These people will grow NZ not the stale individuals who are sadly averse to change.

Raz
14-07-2020, 09:30 AM
Bye then and forfeit your right to return when climate change comes knocking. No dual citizenship.

fundamentally we need people who want to be here for the long term, and there are plenty who do at our border even before this crisis.

Doesn't mean people do not want to be here long term..however things, not in your control, can change everything. Everyone should have a plan B, it personally the responsible thing to do.

Bjauck
14-07-2020, 09:59 AM
Toddy has done the right and honorable thing but what has happened points a dagger at the heart of National - they have chosen 2 dud leaders in a row!

Expect ACT to be a huge beneficiary of the debacle - a good thing under the circumstances for NZ.

As for Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents - NZ will be the biggest loser out of all of this as one can envisage more & bigger disasters ahead from them if they get re-elected as government.

The shambolic disaster which is Kiwibuild is but a foretaste of what Comrade Cindy is about - big promises with zero chance of delivery.
The Comrades and Tories should come together cooperatively for the good of the country as we face the epidemic and depression.

Is that a pig flying?

Zaphod
14-07-2020, 12:39 PM
The Comrades and Tories should come together cooperatively for the good of the country as we face the epidemic and depression.

Is that a pig flying?

Have dogs and cats made peace?

tim23
14-07-2020, 04:39 PM
Agree National is as shambolic as Labour and definitely not up to par for their high standards. Time for an alternative, ACT or NC possibly.

No - National is shambolic to say they are both shambolic is clearly untrue.

tim23
14-07-2020, 04:41 PM
Toddy has done the right and honorable thing but what has happened points a dagger at the heart of National - they have chosen 2 dud leaders in a row!

Expect ACT to be a huge beneficiary of the debacle - a good thing under the circumstances for NZ.

As for Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents - NZ will be the biggest loser out of all of this as one can envisage more & bigger disasters ahead from them if they get re-elected as government.

The shambolic disaster which is Kiwibuild is but a foretaste of what Comrade Cindy is about - big promises with zero chance of delivery.

Gee only you and your best mate Hosking could put a positive spin on this today - and I think it really weird you know about his big toe...

Oberon
14-07-2020, 04:53 PM
I'm not hard-nosed National or Labour. I was open to Mueller but after today, I think the fat lady has sung on National's chances in 2020.

The one thing I would love to see this election is an extinction-level event for NZ First. National or Labour, let's see how they run without Mr Kingmaker.

Balance
14-07-2020, 05:11 PM
Gee only you and your best mate Hosking could put a positive spin on this today - and I think it really weird you know about his big toe...

Still smarting, tim23 from the realisation that you have less impact on the public than his toe?

Get over it. 🤣

tim23
14-07-2020, 07:41 PM
Still smarting, tim23 from the realisation that you have less impact on the public than his toe?

Get over it. ��

The more you carry on the weirder you get, you can stop defending Mike, its a bit tedious.

tim23
14-07-2020, 08:14 PM
Collins it is - sensible choice for the Nats

ynot
14-07-2020, 08:30 PM
Woops. I'll try that again.

ynot
14-07-2020, 08:33 PM
It is a wonder that the caucus didn't see that at the start.
Poor judgement for all of them.

Absolutely right. Simon had his faults but wow, to say Muller was a disappointment is an understatement.

Balance
14-07-2020, 08:52 PM
A week is a long time in politics.

Let the battle commences!

Jonboyz
14-07-2020, 09:03 PM
From now on, everything will be 'crush this', 'crush that'.

moka
14-07-2020, 10:56 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347974 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347974)

National needs to change tactics, not just the leader.
The party needs a complete revamp of tactics and strategy in the post-Covid-19 world.
It is evident the National Party has not yet come to terms with the changed reality of our Covid-19 infected world, which has rendered many previous tactics redundant and hence increases public disapproval.
The new tactic needs the Opposition to demonstrate the need for much more graciousness and altruism than it is currently willing to offer.
Why should NZ voters take away power from a Government which is doing incredibly well in managing a public health crisis - the here and now - and give it to a party that is claiming to work for reducing public debt somewhere in the distant future?

fungus pudding
15-07-2020, 01:26 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347974 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347974)

National needs to change tactics, not just the leader.
The party needs a complete revamp of tactics and strategy in the post-Covid-19 world.
It is evident the National Party has not yet come to terms with the changed reality of our Covid-19 infected world, which has rendered many previous tactics redundant and hence increases public disapproval.
The new tactic needs the Opposition to demonstrate the need for much more graciousness and altruism than it is currently willing to offer.
Why should NZ voters take away power from a Government which is doing incredibly well in managing a public health crisis - the here and now - and give it to a party that is claiming to work for reducing public debt somewhere in the distant future?

Because they are doing so poorly at everything else, and they have such a lack of skill in their MPs nothing will change.

dobby41
15-07-2020, 07:20 AM
Because they are doing so poorly at everything else, and they have such a lack of skill in their MPs nothing will change.

Expect some nasty politics from the Nats.
More attack adds stretching the truth.
Maybe more homeless in the isolation hotels.
Anything is fair game with that lot.

Balance
15-07-2020, 07:23 AM
Expect some nasty politics from the Nats.
More attack adds stretching the truth.
Maybe more homeless in the isolation hotels.
Anything is fair game with that lot.

Wonder who has been stretching the truth -

Kiwibuild,

CGT,

Light rail,

Affordable housing,

Reduced immigration,

Reduced child poverty,

Working Coalition with NZF.

Lies & half-truths (nasty things) seem to be fair game with Comrade Cindy & her incompetents.

Blue Skies
15-07-2020, 07:34 AM
Looks like Judith Collins first job as new leader will be getting rid of the repellent Michael Woodhouse.

blackcap
15-07-2020, 07:49 AM
Great to see that Judith has got the role. She will have Cindy for breakfast and spit her out. I see the market has already shifted toward national. I like the optics too of her having was it 51 MP's with her at last nights press event post the meeting as opposed to Muller who had just Kaye with him. National will do well and Labour needs to watch out. A week is a long time in politics, 8 weeks even longer.

dobby41
15-07-2020, 08:22 AM
Great to see that Judith has got the role. She will have Cindy for breakfast and spit her out. I see the market has already shifted toward national. I like the optics too of her having was it 51 MP's with her at last nights press event post the meeting as opposed to Muller who had just Kaye with him. National will do well and Labour needs to watch out. A week is a long time in politics, 8 weeks even longer.

Only time will tell.
She will close the gap but won't get there - she it just too polarising.

blackcap
15-07-2020, 08:28 AM
Only time will tell.
She will close the gap but won't get there - she it just too polarising.

Probably, I don't expect her to win either but you never know. Labour only got 38% at the last election and they are in govt. If national can get anywhere upwards of 40% I think its a good election. How the minor parties fall is anyone's guess.
I understand the polarising of Judith, but she does speak well, she will not back down and has the stamina to take it all the way. (Unlike Simon, spoke badly and Muller no energy).
I happened to sit next to Judith on a flight from Auckland to Wellington a good 9 months ago. In light of what has happened now it was a very interesting conversation, we spoke the whole hour. I suggested that Simon needed to go (for Nationals sake), that she would be a good replacement. She was coy on that front.
It has made this election interesting though and you could not say that 24 hours ago.

ynot
15-07-2020, 08:37 AM
In hindsight she should have replaced Simon. It should have been obvious to the caucus Muller was not up to the job. Very poorly managed coming this close to the election.

westerly
15-07-2020, 08:55 AM
Wonder who has been stretching the truth -

Kiwibuild,

CGT,

Light rail,

Affordable housing,

Reduced immigration,

Reduced child poverty,

Working Coalition with NZF.

Lies & half-truths (nasty things) seem to be fair game with Comrade Cindy & her incompetents.

You keep repeating yourself. Sign of? At the very least , desperation

westerly

Bjauck
15-07-2020, 09:14 AM
I see Collins must have taken the MAGA hat from Muller. She is vowing to “take back our country from the current lot.”
It sounds like the sort of populist stament you hear from Trump or Brexiters.

blackcap
15-07-2020, 09:16 AM
I see Collins must have taken the MAGA hat from Muller. She is vowing to “take back our country from the current lot.”
It sounds like the sort of populist stament you hear from Trump or Brexiters.

Great isn't it. Good to see her fighting for what she believes in. I think she is a true patriot. She said last night that NZ is her home and she would not want to live elsewhere. Lets take back this country from the current lot of wreckers Judith.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 09:19 AM
What about those in their own team though.

dobby41
15-07-2020, 09:46 AM
Great isn't it. Good to see her fighting for what she believes in. I think she is a true patriot.

It is good to see that she believes.
I'm not sure what a patriot really is - are you saying that Jacinda isn't, or anyone else in Parliamant for that matter?

Seems to me a little bit poacher turned game keeper.
New National Party leader Judith Collins has 'learned from mistakes' and shedding dirty politics
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122134782/new-national-party-leader-judith-collins-has-learned-from-mistakes-and-shedding-dirty-politics

I don't think they can change that fast - dirty politics is in their DNA.

fungus pudding
15-07-2020, 10:05 AM
It is good to see that she believes.
I'm not sure what a patriot really is - are you saying that Jacinda isn't, or anyone else in Parliamant for that matter?

Seems to me a little bit poacher turned game keeper.
New National Party leader Judith Collins has 'learned from mistakes' and shedding dirty politics
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122134782/new-national-party-leader-judith-collins-has-learned-from-mistakes-and-shedding-dirty-politics

I don't think they can change that fast - dirty politics is in their DNA.

'Their DNA' That's a particularly silly comment. Like every other party, National is comprised of a wide variety of individuals. They do not roll out of a printing press.
Try thinking before posting.

Blue Skies
15-07-2020, 10:21 AM
Great to see that Judith has got the role. She will have Cindy for breakfast and spit her out. I see the market has already shifted toward national. I like the optics too of her having was it 51 MP's with her at last nights press event post the meeting as opposed to Muller who had just Kaye with him. National will do well and Labour needs to watch out. A week is a long time in politics, 8 weeks even longer.


You really think so? You might be right but with respect sounds more like hope & bravado than based on evidence.
Jacinda Adern is an historic PM, 80% Plus approval for handling the current crisis, most liked & trusted PM in a century.
Judith Collins despised by some in her own caucus, previously rejected 3 times and last off the rank choice to lead her own party, which many political commentators say shows how unravelled National has become.
You really think the National caucus is unified behind Judith ? Might last 24 hours.

Going to be interesting for sure.

Sorry for Muller, he seemed a decent man.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 10:24 AM
She knows how all this politics/law stuff works inside out so will save the furniture for the Nats. If she does a decent job too maybe her colleagues will decide if she stays on. She did score some hits on Twyford in the media part of the role which is important for an opposition. :)

percy
15-07-2020, 10:30 AM
Looks as this though election will be The Young and the Restless ,verses The Old and the Dodgy....lol.

macduffy
15-07-2020, 10:32 AM
She knows how all this politics/law stuff works inside out so will save the furniture for the Nats. If she does a decent job too maybe her colleagues will decide if she stays on. She did score some hits on Twyford at least in the media part of the role.

Win or, probably, lose, I see Judith C staying as leader after the election. There's no one else with her experience, tenacity and skill on either side - except possibly Winston!

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 10:38 AM
Win or, probably, lose, I see Judith C staying as leader after the election. There's no one else with her experience, tenacity and skill on either side - except possibly Winston!

Yes another incredible force winston peters. Amazing how many inquiries he's been through and emerged relatively intact. :)

Blue Skies
15-07-2020, 10:41 AM
Win or, probably, lose, I see Judith C staying as leader after the election. There's no one else with her experience, tenacity and skill on either side - except possibly Winston!



Yes agree, there's no one else & think she will bring back a lot of votes to National which were in danger of bleeding away to ACT or the new Conservative party.

fungus pudding
15-07-2020, 10:54 AM
Yes agree, there's no one else & think she will bring back a lot of votes to National which were in danger of bleeding away to ACT or the new Conservative party.

Votes going to Act shouldn't worry National supporters. Taking the long term view they would benefit by having a more-or-less guaranteed coalition partner.

Balance
15-07-2020, 11:31 AM
You really think the National caucus is unified behind Judith ? Might last 24 hours.



Recorded for posterity.

Sensing the fear now in Comrade Cindy & her bunch of incompetents who have delivered bugger all on the big transformative promises they made to get their 38% votes last election.

Start with Kiwibuild & home affordability.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 11:54 AM
The competent people behind the scenes do the work and party doesn't matter as much I think.

fungus pudding
15-07-2020, 12:09 PM
They are all lawyers and will only deliver spin as they did during their time. The competent people do the work regardless of party.

'They' are certainly not all lawyers - assuming you're on about Cindy and her bunch of incompetents. Did you mean they are all incompetent?

Joshuatree
15-07-2020, 12:58 PM
Looks as this though election will be The Young and the Restless ,verses The Old and the Dodgy....lol.

Lol . Crushers mouldyoon tough tactics are long past their use by date and wont work for her now.Not forgetting her dirty politics tarnish as well. Good article from RNZ.


Why Collins' approach is a 'shame' (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/421246/collins-as-national-leader-country-needs-constructive-approach-not-aggression-and-negativity)


"There will be no softening of her combativeness, and the "Crusher Collins" persona will not be retired. Moments after being elected leader, she used the word "fight" repeatedly and actually said that National's aim was to "crush" the government.
That is a pity.
What the country needs at present is a constructive approach, not aggression and negativity."

justakiwi
15-07-2020, 01:12 PM
She will also lose a lot of swinging voters like me, who will never vote National with her at the helm.


Yes agree, there's no one else & think she will bring back a lot of votes to National which were in danger of bleeding away to ACT or the new Conservative party.

justakiwi
15-07-2020, 01:13 PM
100% agree



"There will be no softening of her combativeness, and the "Crusher Collins" persona will not be retired. Moments after being elected leader, she used the word "fight" repeatedly and actually said that National's aim was to "crush" the government.
That is a pity.
What the country needs at present is a constructive approach, not aggression and negativity."

Balance
15-07-2020, 01:16 PM
She will also lose a lot of swinging voters like me, who will never vote National with her at the helm.

Thank goodness for that! ��

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 01:49 PM
she will probably keep it around to run on next time on the minor chance she will win haha.

fungus pudding
15-07-2020, 02:26 PM
Lol . Crushers mouldyoon tough tactics are long past their use by date and wont work for her now.



Let's face it tree. You wouldn't vote National if Allah herself was standing.

Balance
15-07-2020, 03:12 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421257/national-leadership-change-gerry-brownlee-backs-judith-collins-unapologetic-diversity-stance

Diversity be damned.

That’s how it should be - the best person for the job. Can always hire diversity to provide alternative views and other views.

Bjauck
15-07-2020, 03:18 PM
Looks as this though election will be The Young and the Restless ,verses The Old and the Dodgy....lol. Erin Brockovich V. The codgers from the The Last of The Summer Whine!

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 03:26 PM
I suppose the business experience doesn't matter that much anymore.

..and thank goodness. kennedy and obama had no business experience.

fish
15-07-2020, 05:01 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421257/national-leadership-change-gerry-brownlee-backs-judith-collins-unapologetic-diversity-stance

Diversity be damned.

That’s how it should be - the best person for the job. Can always hire diversity to provide alternative views and other views.

I was really pleased to hear that Dr Shane Reti has been promoted to National Health Spokesperson.
An outstanding Doctor with great potential as a political leader.
Totally trustworthy

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 05:18 PM
I was really pleased to hear that Dr Shane Reti has been promoted to National Health Spokesperson.
An outstanding Doctor with great potential as a political leader.
Totally trustworthy

Yes agree Dr Reti a strong credible and capable choice. I’d be far happier to see him and Ashley running the COVID show than Mr no nothing about health from labour!

This is a fine example of the depth of talent National will draw from that will expose labour as the cheesy leader fronting everything with no substance backing her.

Labour has already conclusively proven they are incompetent in delivering with no depth of expertise or experience,

I think with Collins in charge, this obvious weakness in labour will be their soft spot that National can and legitimately will expose for all to see.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 05:19 PM
I think Ashley has done a good job so far though.

dobby41
15-07-2020, 05:25 PM
You wouldn't get ashley running the show with National in charge. I'd take ashley over both Reti and clark etc

Ahsley would have been removed early on for scaremongering and not prioritisng people's livelihoods or something.

Though now, under Crusher, they don't want to open the borders. She said that it has to be safety first and foremost.
National flip flopping all over the show.

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 05:25 PM
You wouldn't get ashley running the show with National in charge. I'd take ashley over both Reti and clark etc

Ahsley would have been removed early on for scaremongering and not prioritisng people's livelihoods or something.

That was a quick response from the paid labour social media attack dog. You’re wrong, National pick the minister, not the director of health, and Ashley has proven himself … despite the inept labour ministerial oversight, now fired, replaced by a know nothing.

Muppet, your veneer is so thin we can see right through it

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 05:29 PM
Though now, under Crusher, they don't want to open the borders. She said that it has to be safety first and foremost.
National flip flopping all over the show.

If you dwell in the past, however recent, you’ll miss the shift … what Collins says goes, stay alert, the game has changed. National is back and labour will be wise to reassess their chances when reflecting on a litany off failures to deliver any of their promises.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 05:34 PM
That was a quick response from the paid labour social media attack dog. You’re wrong, National pick the minister, not the director of health, and Ashley has proven himself … despite the inept labour ministerial oversight, now fired, replaced by a know nothing.

Muppet, your veneer is so thin we can see right through it

"you're wrong". good comeback. I prefer to look at facts rather than spin myself.


on a litany off failures to deliver any of their promises.

Reading from the young nat script again. everything in the coalition deal has been delivered on time.

blackcap
15-07-2020, 05:35 PM
That was a quick response from the paid labour social media attack dog. You’re wrong, National pick the minister, not the director of health, and Ashley has proven himself … despite the inept labour ministerial oversight, now fired, replaced by a know nothing.

Muppet, your veneer is so thin we can see right through it

You reackon Panda-NZ is a paid Labour social media attack dog? Yeah I thought so too.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 05:41 PM
Hehe why waste time on a site with 4k members. :p

Balance
15-07-2020, 06:11 PM
Though now, under Crusher, they don't want to open the borders. She said that it has to be safety first and foremost.
National flip flopping all over the show.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348318

Have a read, dobby41, and you are so far off beam with your comment that it can only point to one thing - the game has changed but Comrade Cindy & her bunch of incompetents have not.

Judith Collins drew a distinction between a possible bubble with the Cook Islands and forming one with Australia.

She said Australia had a "real problem", in reference to a new Covid-19 outbreak, and it was not safe to have a transtasman bubble.

"It's all about safety."

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 06:13 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348318

Have a read, dobby41, and you are so far off beam with your comment that it can only point to one thing - the game has changed but Comrade Cindy & her bunch of incompetents have not.

Judith Collins drew a distinction between a possible bubble with the Cook Islands and forming one with Australia.

She said Australia had a "real problem", in reference to a new Covid-19 outbreak, and it was not safe to have a transtasman bubble.

"It's all about safety."

This is the 10th changed position from the National party. they are all over the place.

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 06:21 PM
You reackon Panda-NZ is a paid Labour social media attack dog? Yeah I thought so too.

Yes I do, the newness, the timing with the election, the urgency and immediacy to respond to anything derogatory to labour, 24x7 attention, unable to consider any anti labour commentary except excuse it, completely myopic. Yes I do think that.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 06:24 PM
We are the best in the world though in all areas. pretty hard to argue with these results. :)

National should be working with the govt and it's disappointing they aren't but have chosen to go down a quite different route.

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 06:25 PM
"you're wrong". good comeback. I prefer to look at facts rather than spin myself.



Reading from the young nat/act script again. everything in the coalition deal has been delivered on time.

I haven’t read the young Nat script, what does it say? The coalition is a deflection from labour, the majority party, the point is that the government has delivered almost nothing promised and you excuse that, deflect and make that out to be something the opposition couldn’t do better. Transparent shill, outed here. You’ll be gone the minute the election is over, when your pay packet stops.

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 06:30 PM
What no response from panda, it’s been a whole minute already!

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 06:33 PM
Why be so bitter about things. It's strange and bad for ones' mental health. breathe in and practice some mindfulness. :)

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 06:49 PM
Not bitter at all, mentally happy as well, in a great space. How about you?

Why didn’t you deny my accusation that you are a paid labour social media shill, instead you deflected? Telling.

Confront and overcome the challenge, deliver the promises you make or support, unlike your beloved labour who have delivered no manifesto policy outcomes, none.

Honestly if it wasn’t for a few really awful situations like the earthquake, the Muslim killings, the COVID pandemic ... that frankly JA has fronted very well, otherwise her government has failed to deliver pretty much anything at all.

The leader can only cover for the inept delivery for so long and coming into the election, labour are on the ropes with delivery. Fail.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 06:56 PM
Every policy in the coalition document has been delivered. for some reason you seem unable to take this in.

The rest of what you write are only slogans with no delivery in and of themselves.

blackcap
15-07-2020, 06:57 PM
Yes I do, the newness, the timing with the election, the urgency and immediacy to respond to anything derogatory to labour, 24x7 attention, unable to consider any anti labour commentary except excuse it, completely myopic. Yes I do think that.

Yeah joined 28 Feb 2020, and comments predominantly on the political threads or politically related. And comments frequently. Too frequently for someone without skin in the game.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 06:59 PM
Yeah joined 28 Feb 2020, and comments predominantly on the political threads or politically related. And comments frequently. Too frequently for someone without skin in the game.

What might have happened since then.. maybe a corona virus and some amazing investment opportunities.

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 07:04 PM
Every policy in the coalition document has been delivered. for some reason you seem unable to take this in.

The rest of what you write are slogans with no delivery in and of themselves.

List them then, for us who are ignorant; list every policy in the coalition document that has been delivered. It’s your duty as a paid party shill that has not denied your responsibility to defend the labour government. Earn your money. Honestly, we have no idea what your on about achieving anything.

Bjauck
15-07-2020, 07:16 PM
Though now, under Crusher, they don't want to open the borders. She said that it has to be safety first and foremost.
National flip flopping all over the show. I think the floundering should stop now under Collins. If they still had the NZ Spitting Image Show, I think her puppet would be a leather clad bikie*! She seems to have got a new spring in her step. It is a Good move to swap in Reti for Woodhouse. Reti seems a decent level-headed person and to have talked sense whenever I have seen him interviewed.

*A bit like Norman Tebbit from the UK version of spitting image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGl6lHUbsg0

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 07:20 PM
Yes what sort of outfit was Muller running. It was wierd to witness as an outsider. Collins is a capable operator.

moka
15-07-2020, 07:23 PM
Because they are doing so poorly at everything else, and they have such a lack of skill in their MPs nothing will change.
I thought you were talking about National when you said they have a lack of skills, because the article was about National. But if you are talking about Labour that’s not what most New Zealanders think, and you are entitled to your minority viewpoint.
And do you think National needs a change of strategy, which was what the article was about?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?objectid=1234
According to the poll, the Labour-led coalition retained a high rating of 7.3 out of 10, down slightly from May on 7.6, which was the highest rating since winning the 2017 election.
The Labour party was perceived most capable of handling 18 out of the 20 issues facing New Zealanders.

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 07:24 PM
I think the floundering should stop now under Collins. If they still had the NZ Spitting Image Show, I think her puppet would be a leather clad bikie! She seems to have got a new spring in her step. It is a Good move to swap in Reti for Woodhouse. Reti seems a decent level-headed person and to have talked sense whenever I have seen him interviewed.

Reti is prime time, a class act. He and Ashley together would make this labour government floundering look like it is, amateurs defending our health and society. Ashley is doing this all by himself, god bless him, without a competent minister he is doing an amazing job. I only hope he has the steel to see this through, being abandoned by government expertise with a recently appointed no nothing minister in charge.

Balance
15-07-2020, 07:25 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122143982/just-shane-a-mori-boy-from-northland-who-is-nationals-new-health-spokesman

Profile of Shane Reti - no ordinary Maori here and one whose outstanding credentials puts to shame all the other token Maori politicians in Labour, especially what’s his name minister of tourism.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 07:25 PM
Reti is prime time, a class act..

What has he achieved in your view?

Muller had a good resume in theory but floundered in a position of leadership.

Baa_Baa
15-07-2020, 07:31 PM
List them then, for us who are ignorant; list every policy in the coalition document that has been delivered. It’s your duty as a paid party shill that has not denied your responsibility to defend the labour government. Earn your money. Honestly, we have no idea what your on about achieving anything.

So where’s the list of accomplishments then panda? It’s been well over five minutes and you haven’t replied!

Tell us you’re not a paid shill, confront this directly, be convincing, unlike your months of diatribe since Feb 20 when you began to regale us with the accomplishments (none) of the labour government.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 07:34 PM
What is National's record of delivery? They claim to be the ones with the plan and ready for government on day one.

Here is the coaliton agreement which you can tick off:

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nzfirst/pages/2110/attachments/original/1529499873/LabourandNewZealandFirstCoalitionAgreement2017.pdf ?1529499873

macduffy
15-07-2020, 07:52 PM
A coalition agreement is not a list of accomplishments.

I don't think I'll bother reading any more "posts" from that source.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 07:57 PM
It's not a political document.. it's a legal one lol

fish
15-07-2020, 08:02 PM
[QUOTE=Panda-NZ-;829586]What has he achieved in your view?

Muller had a good resume but floundered in a position of leadership.[/QUOTE .

Clearly you have no idea what Shane Reti has accomplished .
Time for you to do a bit of research .

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 08:06 PM
Muller had a good resume but floundered in a position of leadership.[/QUOTE .

Clearly you have no idea what Shane Reti has accomplished .
Time for you to do a bit of research .

I don't know and don't care but it's sort of incumbent upon those claiming it to highlight something, which should be easy presumably. :)

moka
15-07-2020, 08:49 PM
Interesting article.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/15-07-2020/what-judith-collins-can-learn-from-the-jacinda-ardern-miracle-from-someone-who-was-there/
What Judith Collins can learn from the Jacinda Ardern miracle – from someone who was there.

moka
15-07-2020, 08:53 PM
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/15-07-2020/judith-collins-is-not-what-you-think-she-is/
Collins’ rise in some ways reflects the ascension of Jacinda Ardern. As inexplicable as it seems now, Ardern was only handed the leadership as a last resort after Labour had exhausted an identikit succession of grey, middle-aged men, despite her high public profile and obvious appeal.
Similarly, it has taken the greatest leadership crisis in National’s modern history for the party’s MPs to reluctantly, eventually, land on their consistently best performer over a decade to lead them into the election.

Panda-NZ-
15-07-2020, 10:47 PM
Interesting article I think.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 03:16 AM
Woodhouse allegedly stopped by party leadership from making a statement on email scandal



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348364

Speaks to her political skills and leadership credentials so far I think.

kiora
16-07-2020, 06:21 AM
And now Nikki Kaye going & leaving politics ?
Brownlie really?
National,what are you doing ???

Balance
16-07-2020, 06:37 AM
And now Nikki Kaye going & leaving politics ?
Brownlie really?
National,what are you doing ???

Changing of the guard - National has not been effective for the last 2 years or have you not notice?

mikeybycrikey
16-07-2020, 07:01 AM
And now Nikki Kaye going & leaving politics ?
Brownlie really?
National,what are you doing ???

Now it looks like Amy Adams is goneburger too.
Never mind “gone by lunchtime”, it barely even breakfast time.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 07:04 AM
Who will replace them?

winner69
16-07-2020, 07:11 AM
People wondering where Collins buys her Tasty cheese from.

dobby41
16-07-2020, 07:28 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348318

Have a read, dobby41, and you are so far off beam with your comment that it can only point to one thing - the game has changed but Comrade Cindy & her bunch of incompetents have not.

Judith Collins drew a distinction between a possible bubble with the Cook Islands and forming one with Australia.

She said Australia had a "real problem", in reference to a new Covid-19 outbreak, and it was not safe to have a transtasman bubble.

"It's all about safety."

Finally they see reality.
The border can't open until it is safe to do so - that is Labours stance.
Labour has seperated out Aussie and Realm countries (Cooks and Nuie).
Sounds like Crusher is up with Labours plan.
Hopefully we won't see disingenuous 'let's open the border now' remarks from Nat when it isn't safe to do so.

A change from the 'economy is more important than everything' tripe you float around without any idea how that would be achieved without us becoming like Victoria.
Still believe that Aussie had the best approach? Vic (at least) is looking at the possibility of a full lockdown like our level 4.
https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/what-stage-4-restrictions-in-victoria-could-look-like/news-story/b8a82bd6e7d942831fb639976f5cd0f8

BlackPeter
16-07-2020, 07:37 AM
And now Nikki Kaye going & leaving politics ?
Brownlie really?
National,what are you doing ???


Changing of the guard - National has not been effective for the last 2 years or have you not notice?


Now it looks like Amy Adams is goneburger too.
Never mind “gone by lunchtime”, it barely even breakfast time.

Frightening, isn't it?

Just wondering whether "the Crusher" did her numbers? She clearly loves crushing more than analyzing, leading or counting.

Judith won't be able to increase the number of right wing votes for National (given they always had them anyway). She might however lose some of the more trigger happy elements of Nationals previous voter base to the new gun-lover party (aka ACT) and potentially Colin Craig's Zombie party ... they seem to be back as well.

Less votes on the right for Judith.

Nationals only chance to grow was to regain their base in the middle. Getting rid of any decent liberal politician in their rankes will hardly help with that.

Less votes from the middle for Judith. Ouch.

I am sure Judith is going to crush something, this is just who she is and what she does. Afraid however it will be the National support base. Lose-lose.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 07:39 AM
She is leader now though and that's what counts I think.

BlackPeter
16-07-2020, 07:47 AM
People wondering where Collins buys her Tasty cheese from.

:lol:
... cheers for lifting our spirits while watching the disintegration of the National Party!

Bjauck
16-07-2020, 07:48 AM
...

I am sure Judith is going to crush something, this is just who she is and what she does. Afraid however it will be the National support base. Lose-lose.
Crushing things and populist-style slogans such as 'we want to take our country back" are the easy bits!

I am not sure that tactic will be enough to win over enough voters here in NZ under our MMP system. It may have worked in the USA and the UK where Trump and the Conservative Party got into power with less than 50% of the popular vote.

Balance
16-07-2020, 08:05 AM
Feel the fear of the Labourites now that the focus is going to shift away from Nationa's weak leadership (now strong leadership) to the HUGE promises made by Labour to win 38% of the vote in 2017 - but have NOT delivered?

Kiwibuild, anyone?

dobby41
16-07-2020, 08:06 AM
Nikki Kaye and Amy Adams quiting - they are losing some useful people here.

Balance
16-07-2020, 08:17 AM
Nikki Kaye and Amy Adams quiting - they are losing some useful people here.

Not if they are not team players.

Kiwibuild - Labour cannot even deliver 500 new houses, let alone 10,000 new houses in 2020.

That's about the size of the economic credibility (5%) of Comrade Cindy & her incompetents.

Joshuatree
16-07-2020, 08:22 AM
They are.Good people leaving a nest run by crusher queen rat who will not change her spots.Inform yourselves and read Dirty Politics by Nicky Hagar. Expect Trump like electioneering ahead albeit with a wicked humour.

Balance
16-07-2020, 08:33 AM
They are.Good people leaving a nest run by crusher queen rat who will not change her spots.Inform yourselves and read Dirty Politics by Nicky Hagar. Expect Trump like electioneering ahead albeit with a wicked humour.

Feel the fear?

Kiwibuild, anyone? Affordable homes for all according to Comrade Cindy.

Joshuatree
16-07-2020, 08:56 AM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL. "C'mon Feel The Noise". Unbalanced keeps talking like full blown commie, a confused being there.:confused:

fish
16-07-2020, 09:00 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348364

Speaks to her sound political leadership credentials.

Though the only thing you need to know is that this party wanted the borders open from March and a virus doesn't care about politics. I trust dr bloomfield over political hack Reti and the previous ones as well.

You are getting very confused about roles here.
Health Ministers and shadow spokesperson work with experts such as Bloomfield.
It does help if a Health Minister has Health experience and I feel confident shane could work well with Bloomfield
Calling Shane Reti a political Hack without adequate research about him is derogatory.
Shane has done good things for people and is well-regarded in Northland.
He has been to remote Maori communities and helped in many ways.
This is the first derogatory comment I have heard about him

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 09:03 AM
You are getting very confused about roles here.
Health Ministers and shadow spokesperson work with experts such as Bloomfield.
It does help if a Health Minister has Health experience and I feel confident shane could work well with Bloomfield
Calling Shane Reti a political Hack without adequate research about him is derogatory.
Shane has done good things for people and is well-regarded in Northland.
He has been to remote Maori communities and helped in many ways.
This is the first derogatory comment I have heard about him


I think we already have a health minister who is working with bloomfield quite well currently. :)

Blue Skies
16-07-2020, 09:15 AM
You really think so? You might be right but with respect sounds more like hope & bravado than based on evidence.

Judith Collins despised by some in her own caucus, previously rejected 3 times and last off the rank choice to lead her own party, which many political commentators say shows how unravelled National has become.
You really think the National caucus is unified behind Judith ? Might last 24 hours.

Going to be interesting for sure.

Sorry for Muller, he seemed a decent man.



Well that UNITY behind Judith didn't even last 24 hours.

Balance, sorry to say but you're so naive to think there would be unity under Judith Collins.

IAK
16-07-2020, 09:20 AM
Gerry Brownlee – who has been put in charge of Covid-19 recovery. Wasn't he in charge of the Christchurch rebuild?

Sir Ten
16-07-2020, 09:22 AM
Muller and Kaye muddied the National proposition for existing blue voters and didn't provide anything compelling to shift the fungible centre in their direction. This has resulted in a clearer and stronger mandate for Collins. Had she taken over from Bridges there'd have been plenty of commentators suggesting there were/are better alternatives... hard to make that argument now.

Regardless of the outcome in September, the clean out is a good thing. National need to reclaim their identity. Their attempt to gain the middle ground lacked any authenticity.

Collins is polarizing, but will be far more definitive and combative - you're either picking her or your not. There'll be alot less of the wishy-washy "I'll probably vote blue because I don't like red" at the pub. Whether that's a good thing, or not, remains to be seen.

Act and Seymour are doing a good job, but for what outcome? Voting for them is a longer term proposition. In the short term, all it does is increase their volume, not their influence.

Those voters largely focused on the economy will want to avoid a red or red/green government. Therefore, if National can't markedly improve it's polling results over the next couple of months to convince voters they actually have any chance of governing, Winston may well cruise back in. For the right this will likely be the lesser of two evils... Labour/Greens + NZF not doing anything is better than Labour or Labour/Greens doing something.

fungus pudding
16-07-2020, 09:26 AM
Muller and Kaye muddied the National proposition for existing blue voters and didn't provide anything compelling to shift the fungible centre in their direction. This has resulted in a clearer and stronger mandate for Collins. Had she taken over from Bridges there'd have been plenty of commentators suggesting there were/are better alternatives... hard to make that argument now.

Regardless of the outcome in September, the clean out is a good thing. National need to reclaim their identity. Their attempt to gain the middle ground lacked any authenticity.

Collins is polarizing, but will be far more definitive and combative - you're either picking her or your not. There'll be alot less of the wishy-washy "I'll probably vote blue because I don't like red" at the pub. Whether that's a good thing, or not, remains to be seen.

Act and Seymour are doing a good job, but for what outcome? Voting for them is a longer term proposition. In the short term, all it does is increase their volume, not their influence.

Those voters largely focused on the economy will want to avoid a red or red/green government. Therefore, if National can't markedly improve it's polling results over the next couple of months to convince voters they actually have any chance of governing, Winston may well cruise back in. For the right this will likely be the lesser of two evils... Labour/Greens + NZF not doing anything is better than Labour or Labour/Greens doing something.

Act and Seymour might help National in this election. It may well be that National are not able to draw from their list if they gain enough electorates - in which case Act will strengthen the Nats. That's why tactical voting can work.

fish
16-07-2020, 09:40 AM
Work with bloomfield.. interesting take on it. how do you know that will be an option?
You don't trust the words of a politician do you ..

We already have a health minister who is working with bloomfield quite well currently. :)

A Health Minister with no real life experience and expertise in Health is not one I would trust to make the right decision.
I would trust Shane Reti.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 10:04 AM
I would like to see results which are already being delivered for the most part.

I would prefer Dr Ashley Bloomfield for this.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 10:17 AM
Act and Seymour are doing a good job, but for what outcome? Voting for them is a longer term proposition. In the short term, all it does is increase their volume, not their influence.



Though not voting at all is an option.

BlackPeter
16-07-2020, 10:55 AM
...

Though not voting at all is an option.

Sure, but in my view the worst option of all. Not voting created the unbelievable mess both the UK and the US are currently in. Bad politicians and crooks are brought into power by good people who don't vote.

I am both conservative (in the sense of protecting good human values) and I feel that integrity in politics is crucial. I voted over the last couple of decades mainly for either National or ACT.

I never could vote for crooks like Trump, Johnson & Co, and I can't vote for a National party under Collins. ACT unfortunately dropped the ball as well by turning into the gun lover party. NRA light.

Disappointed by both National and ACT and not sure yet, whom to give my vote this time, but it won't be a party run by Judith Collins, and it won't be either a party putting the interest of gun owners over what really matters to humanity. Maybe time to pick a party which shares my values, instead of looking for the policies which might be short term the best for somebodies Cheque book?

fish
16-07-2020, 11:00 AM
Based on you don't even know him I'm guessing. I want results which are already being delivered for the most part.

I prefer Bloomfield not Shane something..

His name is Dr Shane Reti .
I have known him for over 30 years but it would be a couple of years since I last spoke to him .
He is a very good Doctor and well-respected by colleagues and patients.
I know little about his politics-it is not a subject we have ever discussed.
You still do not seem to comprehend their different roles and it is not about who you prefer over another

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 11:03 AM
The government has access to extensive medical advice and support currently. Why would they need a National party politician?

Balance
16-07-2020, 11:10 AM
Well that UNITY behind Judith didn't even last 24 hours.

Balance, sorry to say but you're so naive to think there would be unity under Judith Collins.

On the contrary - those who are not prepared to be part of the team are leaving. That’s what building up a united cohesive team is about.

And good on them for leaving - they have lives outside of politics and can see themselves doing other things.

Not like the bunch of incompetents with Comrade Cindy who have no option other than be in politics.

Kiwibuild, anyone?

fish
16-07-2020, 11:13 AM
The government has access to extensive medical advice and support currently. Why would they need a National party politician and how would it help?

I could write an essay on this but you need to do your own research as clearly you have been guessing and making mistakes in your posts .
You do need to remember his name-Dr Shane Reti-to begin your research .

artemis
16-07-2020, 11:20 AM
List them then, for us who are ignorant; list every policy in the coalition document that has been delivered. It’s your duty as a paid party shill that has not denied your responsibility to defend the labour government. Earn your money. Honestly, we have no idea what your on about achieving anything.

Not a bad thing to have different points of view in forums, even political ones. I have wondered, though, what attracts posters to mainly the political on a share site, and conclude that members here are more than averagely influential. So a decent quality of debate is more likely than on say Twitter, and there is always the chance to sway opinions (and votes).

dobby41
16-07-2020, 11:25 AM
Not a bad thing to have different points of view in forums, even political ones. I have wondered, though, what attracts posters to mainly the political on a share site, and conclude that members here are more than averagely influential. So a decent quality of debate is more likely than on say Twitter, and there is always the chance to sway opinions (and votes).

Nicely said - so long as the debate is kept to the subject rather than the debators.
Different people have different viaws and there is always something new to learn from that.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 11:26 AM
I could write an essay on this but you need to do your own research as clearly you have been guessing and making mistakes in your posts .
You do need to remember his name-Dr Shane Reti-to begin your research .

Presumably "Dr Shane" would do something in his role. This work would overlap with the stuff that bloomfield and others are already doing.

fish
16-07-2020, 11:32 AM
Presumably "Dr Shane" would do something in his role. This work would overlap with the stuff that bloomfield and others are already doing.

Labour has left it, appropriately, to the experts. Politicians can't fix much.

For those that do not know him the name is Dr Reti .
Labour has not left it to the health experts.
They have set up the whole system of re-introducing Covid-19 to NZ .
.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 11:34 AM
You're not really making sense now :\

No community cases and all of our cases are at the border (which is where national wants more to come in).

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 11:48 AM
Sure, but in my view the worst option at all. Not voting created the unbelievable mess both the UK and the US are currently in. Bad politicians and crooks are brought into power by good people who don't vote.

I am both conservative (in the sense of protecting good human values) and I feel that integrity in politics is crucial. I voted over the last couple of decades mainly for either National or ACT.



I understand. I voted for key twice and the other side was unsupportable during the phase of Cunliffe so gave my vote to Winnie to counter the asset sales agenda. Though they have upped their game and I'm of the view now they are better for the economy & society than National even if Key came back.

NZ super fund and kiwisaver were really good and positive policies, and financially sensible.

fish
16-07-2020, 11:52 AM
You're not really making sense :\

No community cases and all our cases are at the border (where national wants more to come in).

I really did not know National wanted more Covid cases to come in.
When you say all our cases are at the border do you mean central Auckland Hotels?.
If so the virus is drifting in the air ready to infect anyone in the community who enters all those hotels

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 11:55 AM
All of the people in isolation have been wearing masks so the risk is low.

Listen to epidemoligists and experts not news commentators. also it pays to watch international news sometimes to have some awareness of what is happening around NZ :)

Joshuatree
16-07-2020, 12:01 PM
For those that do not know him the name is Dr Reti .
Labour has not left it to the health experts.
They have set up the whole system of re-introducing Covid-19 to NZ .
.

Coming from you thats disapointing and plain wrong. Just political spin.And its up to you to share what you know about Dr Reti on this thread, please do. What little i have read and heard from him i like.

artemis
16-07-2020, 12:17 PM
You're not really making sense :\

No community cases and all our cases are at the border (where national wants more to come in).

No community cases that we know of.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 12:19 PM
I'm enjoying level one and going to cafes in a safe environment. contact tracing has not picked up any cases so its unlikely.

Other than at the border which some other team wants to fling open more, or not, depending on the time of the week.

Joshuatree
16-07-2020, 01:22 PM
Gordon Campbell: On National's Great Leap Backwards (https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2007/S00086/on-nationals-great-leap-backwards.htm)
"Flash forward to 2020, and to Nicky Hager’s depiction of the Judith Collins that he documented in depth over the course of writing his book Dirty Politics:
The chapter recounts where she recommended to [blogger Cameron] Slater about some National Party internal politics: "Personally I would be out for total destruction... But then I've learned to give is better than to receive." She called it the "double" rule: "always reward with Double"; and said "If you can't be loved, then best to be feared."
"That is Muldoonism, in a nutshell. If you can’t destroy them, make them fear you. Welcome to the National Party, where - once again- an inflated sense of self-esteem is being marketed as strength."

Balance
16-07-2020, 01:33 PM
Spare us - Gordon Campbell, the ex Green propaganda man!

fungus pudding
16-07-2020, 02:52 PM
Agree that ACT will gain from this debacle. Not so sure though, whether this is a good thing for NZ. While I used to support them in the past - I find it really difficult to support them now since they work hard to turn their party into the NZ wing of the NRA.

While I see that there are people who feel that their right to wear semiautomatic weapons is more important than a working democracy, a good health system, tackling climate change, addressing child poverty, improving state education or repairing our justice system (to name just some of the problems we are facing) ... do I fail to understand how anybody can focus in this day and age on the firearm laws (and they clearly don't wont to make the more stringent).

Anyway - ACT lost me ... but I am sure that the bunch of trigger happy gun owners they are now courting will make up for this loss. Pity - no liberal party left in NZ.

Their gun policy is not finalised, but after speaking to David Seymour I am confident it will be developed to be sensible and safe.

https://www.act.org.nz/firearms

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/actnz/pages/2653/attachments/original/1594774989/ACT0801_Act_Policy_Firearms_02.pdf?1594774989&embedded=true

I listened to Judith Collins on Magic radio interview today and thought she came across well - not the hardened old bat of old. I will probably vote Act (list) and can see a sensible/ workable coalition with National. I am not impressed with Winston First or the Greens, so that lot are off my list; that takes Labour off my list also.
I always use my vote in the most effective way against the party I least want - Act will serve that purpose best.
I was never a Collins fan, but the way she came across today- I'm expecting a big jump in National's polling.

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 02:58 PM
I think it's unlikely

fish
16-07-2020, 03:12 PM
Coming from you thats disapointing and plain wrong. Just political spin.And its up to you to share what you know about Dr Reti on this thread, please do. What little i have read and heard from him i like.

I do not do political spin .
In fact I do not trust Judith Collins and probably will not vote for National in this election .
Dr Reti enjoys helping disadvantaged people-even held free medical clinics for them in Northland .
Try looking him up in Wikipaedia

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 04:32 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12348603

Economic incompetents lol.

Balance
16-07-2020, 06:05 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348616

Real reason why Nikki Kaye decided to call it a day - must be the worse possible experience to back Todd Muller who was not up to the job.

So good on her to quit politics and do other things. Well done, Nikki & all the best.

fish
16-07-2020, 06:51 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12348603

Economic incompetents lol.

saving 9 billion dollars over 4 years is not what most people would regard as economically incompetent lol

Panda-NZ-
16-07-2020, 06:59 PM
Saving 9 billion of what? printed money owned by our domestically owned reserve bank (unlike the nats who borrowed offshore).

fish
16-07-2020, 07:17 PM
Saving 9 billion of what? printed money.

Paul is good at slogans given his training in PR and the author of numerous books.
Which are good qualities for a politician but not that desirable for NZ.

Super returns are tax free to the govt and pretty much everything will return more than the 1% interest rate.

surely they would not print money .
Clearly it saves $9 billion of government money with nobody but fund managers really caring .

tim23
16-07-2020, 08:07 PM
Gordon Campbell: On National's Great Leap Backwards (https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2007/S00086/on-nationals-great-leap-backwards.htm)
"Flash forward to 2020, and to Nicky Hager’s depiction of the Judith Collins that he documented in depth over the course of writing his book Dirty Politics:
The chapter recounts where she recommended to [blogger Cameron] Slater about some National Party internal politics: "Personally I would be out for total destruction... But then I've learned to give is better than to receive." She called it the "double" rule: "always reward with Double"; and said "If you can't be loved, then best to be feared."
"That is Muldoonism, in a nutshell. If you can’t destroy them, make them fear you. Welcome to the National Party, where - once again- an inflated sense of self-esteem is being marketed as strength."

The local Nats branch chair likened her to Muldoon too - thats progress I guess according to that Nats?!

Panda-NZ-
17-07-2020, 03:37 AM
Yep similar in most ways I think.

Panda-NZ-
17-07-2020, 04:49 AM
I feel for simon given what has been put through by the other team.

Balance
17-07-2020, 05:48 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/122149832/government-sells-30m-worth-of-state-houses-after-labour-promised-to-stop-sales

Surprise! Who has been selling state houses despite promising the practice would be stopped pronto?

None other than Labour!

artemis
17-07-2020, 06:22 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/122149832/government-sells-30m-worth-of-state-houses-after-labour-promised-to-stop-sales

Surprise! Who has been selling state houses despite promising the practice would be stopped pronto?

None other than Labour!

There will be some backpedaling on that promise, for sure, with fantastic reasons why it was Ok to break it.

Have to say though, it was always a daft promise, and just indicated that Labour was playing to the gallery without choosing to understand the well publicised reasons behind state house decisions.

Blue Skies
17-07-2020, 01:35 PM
Extraordinary, 18 National MP's have quit this last term & we still haven't even got to the end of it.
No matter which way Brownlee tries to spin it, plainly obvious its not a happy environment.

Balance
17-07-2020, 01:51 PM
Extraordinary, 18 National MP's have quit this last term & we still haven't even got to the end of it.
No matter which way Brownlee tries to spin it, plainly obvious its not a happy environment.

Opposition is not a happy place - that’s for sure. The difference between National & Labour is that National MPs have lives & professions out of politics unlike the career politicians of Labour.

dobby41
17-07-2020, 02:10 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348616

Real reason why Nikki Kaye decided to call it a day - must be the worse possible experience to back Todd Muller who was not up to the job.

So good on her to quit politics and do other things. Well done, Nikki & all the best.

Might be right but just opinion dressed up as fact - she does a lot of that (her job I suppose).

dobby41
17-07-2020, 02:13 PM
The difference between National & Labour is that National MPs have lives & professions out of politics unlike the career politicians of Labour.

Actually the difference is that Labour are in power and will be come end of September and many in National can't stomach another 3 years twiddling thumbs. :D

Panda-NZ-
17-07-2020, 02:23 PM
where are their policies though?

BlackPeter
17-07-2020, 02:25 PM
Opposition is not a happy place - that’s for sure. The difference between National & Labour is that National MPs have lives & professions out of politics unlike the career politicians of Labour.

You don't want to convey the message that Labour politicians are professionals and National politicians are just amateurs, do you?

I think I remember quite capable politicians on both sides ... and yes, there have been duds on both sides as well. Just remember this disaster on two legs whom National made MP for Southland. Forgot his name already, though I think there was some reference to walking away in it, wasn't it?

I guess, he was probably just working on his bachelor in dirty politics and he failed miserably - and this was not due to lack of being mean ...

We do agree however - the behavior of this National MP was absolutely unacceptable and both highly unprofessional as well as plain dumb, as was the behavior of the previous National Party president (Michelle Boag).

Ah well, maybe that is what you want to convey - better avoid the unprofessional politicians coming from National ....

Cheers for letting us know, I will keep this in mind.

Blue Skies
17-07-2020, 03:35 PM
Opposition is not a happy place - that’s for sure. The difference between National & Labour is that National MPs have lives & professions out of politics unlike the career politicians of Labour.


It's pointless meeting every observation of the National Party with rabid criticism of Labour and half baked wild assertions.
The loss of 18 National MP's in one term is hardly something to ignore, & many will interpret that as indicating the Party is in a lot of distress, at the moment.
Add to that the infighting, now on their 4th leader in this single term, & loss of senior National party Kuia Michelle Boag in disgrace, & to any neutral observer, they hardly look like a party capable of running the country, except to their most ardent fan base.

Just a couple of examples, Paul Goldsmith, at Nbr 4 & Finance spokesperson, previous experience to becoming an MP worked as a speechwriter for Phil Goff & John Banks, & wrote a history book.
Or at Nbr 8, Chris Bishop, previous experience worked behind the scenes in Parliament as a researcher/adviser for National & a stint as a tobacco lobbyist ( sort of thing you might prefer to delete from your CV).
Obviously they're no different to some Labour politicians.

fungus pudding
17-07-2020, 04:37 PM
It's pointless meeting every observation of the National Party with rabid criticism of Labour and half baked wild assertions.
The loss of 18 National MP's in one term is hardly something to ignore, & many will interpret that as indicating the Party is in a lot of distress, at the moment.
Add to that the infighting, now on their 4th leader in this single term, & loss of senior National party Kuia Michelle Boag in disgrace, & to any neutral observer, they hardly look like a party capable of running the country, except to their most ardent fan base.

Just a couple of examples, Paul Goldsmith, at Nbr 4 & Finance spokesperson, previous experience to becoming an MP worked as a speechwriter for Phil Goff & John Banks, & wrote a history book.
Or at Nbr 8, Chris Bishop, previous experience worked behind the scenes in Parliament as a researcher/adviser for National & a stint as a tobacco lobbyist ( sort of thing you might prefer to delete from your CV).
Obviously they're no different to some Labour politicians.

Worry more about the future. Judith Collins is almost certain to complete her next three year term. Jacinda Ardern is almost certain not to, and next rung down Labour's ladder doesn't bear thinking about.

BlackPeter
17-07-2020, 04:43 PM
Worry more about the future. Judith Collins is almost certain to complete her next three year term. Jacinda Ardern is almost certain not to, and next rung down Labour's ladder doesn't bear thinking about.

Not quite sure what you are referring to? I guess I understand that Labor has no alternative, but why would they let her go in the first place?

blackcap
17-07-2020, 04:49 PM
Not quite sure what you are referring to? I guess I understand that Labor has no alternative, but why would they let her go in the first place?

She is going before the 2023 election. Everyone knows that.

Panda-NZ-
17-07-2020, 04:59 PM
3 leaders in three months. I think we know who is more likely to go. Though queen judy may have a cache of info to use on other hopefuls to the throne.

My guess is she will last after the election whatever the outcome is.

BlackPeter
17-07-2020, 04:59 PM
She is going before the 2023 election. Everyone knows that.

Everyone ... I guess this makes me no-one?

But glad she apparently confirmed her plans with you ... can you give a guarantee?

fungus pudding
17-07-2020, 05:09 PM
Not quite sure what you are referring to? I guess I understand that Labor has no alternative, but why would they let her go in the first place?


Far be it from me to spread gossip. Just keep your ear to the ground.

RTM
17-07-2020, 05:20 PM
She is going before the 2023 election. Everyone knows that.

Pray tell....will we be seeing Baby Neve at the United Nations ?

fungus pudding
17-07-2020, 05:26 PM
Pray tell....will we be seeing Baby Neve at the United Nations ?

That is most unlikely.

Blue Skies
17-07-2020, 05:42 PM
Far be it from me to spread gossip. Just keep your ear to the ground.


This is huge news.
Do Barry Soper, Jessica Mutch, Tova O'Brien, Corrin Dann & Clarke Gayford know about this.
Or is this just a secret on ST ?

fungus pudding
17-07-2020, 05:51 PM
This is huge news.
Do Barry Soper, Jessica Mutch, Tova O'Brien, Corrin Dann & Clarke Gayford know about this.
Or is this just a secret on ST ?
Ask them. They might tell you. But probably not yet.

moka
17-07-2020, 06:26 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348616

Real reason why Nikki Kaye decided to call it a day - must be the worse possible experience to back Todd Muller who was not up to the job.

So good on her to quit politics and do other things. Well done, Nikki & all the best.
The real reason why Nikki Kaye resigned according to Nikki Kaye and not Heather du Plessis-Allan.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/my-time-up-teary-nikki-kaye-reflects-retirement-decision
Ms Kaye said since she was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2016 "there's always been a calculation of the greatest amount of contribution I can make versus being able to live and have a life".
"I don't look at life like I've got 40 years, I look very much on a shorter time frame. For me it made sense if the party and the country needed me to step up in a leadership role but then with the events that occurred I had to reassess that.
"It's not fair to people of Auckland Central or the party to have someone who is not 100 per cent in."
"You need to know when your time is up and in my view, my time is up."
Asked if it was an emotional decision, Ms Kaye said "of course... but it is absolutely the right thing".

Panda-NZ-
17-07-2020, 06:47 PM
18-20 MPs have made similar decisions so it can't all be about the family.

Anne Tolley, Paula and many of them women. :(

Blue Skies
17-07-2020, 07:12 PM
Ask them. They might tell you. But probably not yet.


Cheers Fungus, NZ is a small place & sounds like you might know something.
I can certainly imagine her wanting to spend some time with her daughter before she grows up.

moka
17-07-2020, 07:14 PM
18-20 MPs have made similar decisions so it can't all be about the family.

Anne Tolley, Paula and many of them women sadly. :(
Already gone



Sir Bill English
Steven Joyce
Jonathan Coleman
Jami-Lee Ross
Christopher Finlayson
Tutehounuku (Nuk) Korako

Leaving at the election


Alastair Scott
Nathan Guy
Maggie Barry
Sarah Dowie
Nicky Wagner
David Carter
Anne Tolley
Paula Bennett
Hamish Walker
Jian Yang
Nikki Kaye
Amy Adams

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-bill-english-to-amy-adams-national-mps-who-ve-quit-since-last-election.html

fungus pudding
17-07-2020, 07:16 PM
Cheers Fungus, NZ is a small place & sounds like you might know something.
I can certainly imagine her wanting to spend some time with her daughter before she grows up.

As Colonel Schultz would say 'I know nothing'.

moka
17-07-2020, 07:28 PM
The loss of 18 National MP's in one term is hardly something to ignore, & many will interpret that as indicating the Party is in a lot of distress, at the moment.
Add to that the infighting, now on their 4th leader in this single term, & loss of senior National party Kuia Michelle Boag in disgrace, & to any neutral observer, they hardly look like a party capable of running the country, except to their most ardent fan base.


Divisiveness rather than diversity in the National Party in my opinion. There is not unity. Different leaders = different values. Todd Muller and Nikki Kaye were more liberal and more in tune with the average New Zealander, while Judith Collins and Gerry Brownlee (aka Gerry and the Placeholders) are back to the old conservative values that the established members want. Unfortunately when you are ousted from a leadership position you are demoted and put in your place rather than retaining a senior position e.g. Paula Bennett.
Managing diversity is an on-going process that unleashes the various talents and capabilities which a diverse population bring to an organization, so as to create a wholesome, inclusive environment, that is “safe for differences,” enables people to “reject rejection,” celebrates diversity, and maximizes the full potential of all, in a cultural context where everyone benefits.

Panda-NZ-
17-07-2020, 07:31 PM
Gerry and nick smith probably know where the skeletons are. They would need to be offered a board position somewhere

Dame Jenny was removed from genesis recently and is now out there cheerleading for collins. she needs money lol

iceman
17-07-2020, 09:59 PM
Already gone



Sir Bill English
Steven Joyce
Jonathan Coleman
Jami-Lee Ross
Christopher Finlayson
Tutehounuku (Nuk) Korako

Leaving at the election


Alastair Scott
Nathan Guy
Maggie Barry
Sarah Dowie
Nicky Wagner
David Carter
Anne Tolley
Paula Bennett
Hamish Walker
Jian Yang
Nikki Kaye
Amy Adams

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-bill-english-to-amy-adams-national-mps-who-ve-quit-since-last-election.html

For the list of those already gone they were mainly senior ministers fom the previous administration. This is very common, same thing happened after the 9 year stint of Helen Clark.
The list of those leaving at the election also has people that have been in Parliament a long time and done their dash, such as Anne Tolley, David Carter, Nathan Guy and Nicky Wagner.
In my view Paula, Amy and Nikki have all left because of the fallout from leadership changes and all 3 are a great loss to National. The rest of them haven't really achieved anything and know their futures as MPs are bleak so good riddance and time to get fresh faces to replace them.

Balance
17-07-2020, 10:09 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/421468/four-reasons-judith-collins-is-exceeding-expectations

All starts with good leadership and that’s what National has now with Collins.

Let the battle begin.

Panda-NZ-
17-07-2020, 10:27 PM
In my view Paula, Amy and Nikki have all left because of the fallout from leadership changes and all 3 are a great loss to National. The rest of them haven't really achieved anything and know their futures as MPs are bleak so good riddance and time to get fresh faces to replace them.

When women were already under-represented in the Nats you have to account for that also.

Accounting for their representation it's mainly women who have left recently.

iceman
18-07-2020, 01:40 AM
When women were already under-represented in the Nats you have to account for that also.

Accounting for their representation it's mainly women who have left recently.

Like I said, those 3 are in my view a great loss for National. But not because they are women, simply because they have been competent and popular MPs.
I most certainly don't want quotas like Labour. It has proven to be disastrous.

artemis
18-07-2020, 07:17 AM
Like I said, those 3 are in my view a great loss for National. But not because they are women, simply because they have been competent and popular MPs.
I most certainly don't want quotas like Labour. It has proven to be disastrous.

Ms Bennett may well have been allocated a senior post under the new leadership, like Mr Bridges. Still, looks like she rather presciently decided Mr Muller was not her style though of course nobody expected his early step down.

Blue Skies
18-07-2020, 08:07 AM
Like I said, those 3 are in my view a great loss for National. But not because they are women, simply because they have been competent and popular MPs.
I most certainly don't want quotas like Labour. It has proven to be disastrous.



Having in the past voted both National & Labour & as a swinging voter, I'm curious why you think its been disastrous under Labour & wasn't under National.
Knowing a fair cross section of people in all socio eco groups, everyone seems to be doing reasonably well. Those whose jobs are gone, like pilots & airline staff seem to have accepted the reality of the world wide Pandemic & quickly adjusted into finding new careers even if it's a step down. The sharemarket is booming, teachers & nurses are better paid & its looking a more realistic career after years of shortages, the Ski fields are crowded with visitors, the rugby's miles better, the Malls are busy, online retail is surging, etc. Obviously tourism sector badly affected but that's the new reality for many places in the world.

At the end of National's term there were so many problems esp in Health, Education & Housing. It was generally recognised (even by Bill English) that National had underfunded & let too many things deteriorate to the point of broken, & had left their large pre election spending program to fix them too late.

The economy was largely based on massive immigration, the exploitation of cheap foreign workers (esp in tourism & agriculture sector) & the exploitation of International students (worthless courses & an army of people to fill cramped sub standard rental apartments which few NZ'ers would put up with).

Auckland was broken, with rapid massive immigration without the supporting infrastructure (which is why its ironical to hear National now claiming they are the party of infrastructure). Roads & motorways jammed, huge traffic congestion , school rolls bursting at the seams without the classrooms to provide for all the new students, shocking hospital waiting lists for cancer & other serious health problems, estimated Auckland was short of 70,000 homes for the increased population, homeless people sleeping & defecating in the doorways of our main retail stores, chronic teacher & nurses shortages due to low pay & unrealistic work loads, huge & rapidly growing income inequality, outrageous 3rd world diseases like rheumatic fever crippling young children, hospital & school buildings leaking, increasing gambling addiction with rapid proliferation of pokie machines & alcohol outlets in vulnerable communities, the farcically appalling SkyCity deal, the blind eye to the free buses & McDoanld's vouchers SkyCity was using to entice vulnerable people from South Auckland suburbs to SkyCity & gamble on the pokie machines, the debacle over meth contamination of houses & a whole industry built on unessesarily decontaminating perfectly ok houses with the tragic consequences for many that caused, Christchurch Rebuild mess (Brownlee detested by many in CHC) , humiliating Transmission Gully Project etc etc, I could go on & on.

So it wasn't all perfect under National by any means & while some of those issues were complex & difficult, some were inexcusably simple to fix.
And this isn't intended as a criticism of National but just curious why you express such strong views that National was so great but Labour's been a disaster. (& no need to mention Kiwibuild again, which agreed has been unable to solve the existing housing problem.)

Balance
18-07-2020, 09:01 AM
So it wasn't all perfect under National by any means & while some of those issues were complex & difficult, some were inexcusably simple to fix.
And this isn't intended as a criticism of National but just curious why you express such strong views that National was so great but Labour's been a disaster. (& no need to mention Kiwibuild again, which agreed has been unable to solve the existing housing problem.)

Ok, let's take a step back and allow you the benefit of explaining what Labour has actually delivered against the huge promises they made to win 38% of the vote in 2017.

Panda-NZ-
18-07-2020, 09:35 AM
Ok, let's take a step back and allow you the benefit of explaining what Labour has actually delivered against the huge promises they made to win 38% of the vote in 2017.

National, Act : 45%
Labour, Green + top/mp= 47%

The elected opposition to the national party in 2017 = 55%

iceman
18-07-2020, 09:40 AM
Having in the past voted both National & Labour & as a swinging voter, I'm curious why you think its been disastrous under Labour & wasn't under National.
Knowing a fair cross section of people in all socio eco groups, everyone seems to be doing reasonably well. Those whose jobs are gone, like pilots & airline staff seem to have accepted the reality of the world wide Pandemic & quickly adjusted into finding new careers even if it's a step down. The sharemarket is booming, teachers & nurses are better paid & its looking a more realistic career after years of shortages, the Ski fields are crowded with visitors, the rugby's miles better, the Malls are busy, online retail is surging, etc. Obviously tourism sector badly affected but that's the new reality for many places in the world.

At the end of National's term there were so many problems esp in Health, Education & Housing. It was generally recognised (even by Bill English) that National had underfunded & let too many things deteriorate to the point of broken, & had left their large pre election spending program to fix them too late.

The economy was largely based on massive immigration, the exploitation of cheap foreign workers (esp in tourism & agriculture sector) & the exploitation of International students (worthless courses & an army of people to fill cramped sub standard rental apartments which few NZ'ers would put up with).

Auckland was broken, with rapid massive immigration without the supporting infrastructure (which is why its ironical to hear National now claiming they are the party of infrastructure). Roads & motorways jammed, huge traffic congestion , school rolls bursting at the seams without the classrooms to provide for all the new students, shocking hospital waiting lists for cancer & other serious health problems, estimated Auckland was short of 70,000 homes for the increased population, homeless people sleeping & defecating in the doorways of our main retail stores, chronic teacher & nurses shortages due to low pay & unrealistic work loads, huge & rapidly growing income inequality, outrageous 3rd world diseases like rheumatic fever crippling young children, hospital & school buildings leaking, increasing gambling addiction with rapid proliferation of pokie machines & alcohol outlets in vulnerable communities, the farcically appalling SkyCity deal, the blind eye to the free buses & McDoanld's vouchers SkyCity was using to entice vulnerable people from South Auckland suburbs to SkyCity & gamble on the pokie machines, the debacle over meth contamination of houses & a whole industry built on unessesarily decontaminating perfectly ok houses with the tragic consequences for many that caused, Christchurch Rebuild mess (Brownlee detested by many in CHC) , humiliating Transmission Gully Project etc etc, I could go on & on.

So it wasn't all perfect under National by any means & while some of those issues were complex & difficult, some were inexcusably simple to fix.
And this isn't intended as a criticism of National but just curious why you express such strong views that National was so great but Labour's been a disaster. (& no need to mention Kiwibuild again, which agreed has been unable to solve the existing housing problem.)

You've misread my post. I said the gender quotas for Labour have been disastrous (Claire Curran a good example) and to my knowledge, National has never had them. So that answers the first line in your post and the rest is not relevant to my post that you've quoted.

And for the record, I agree National underfunded some critical infrastructure like hospital and school buildings but I think they were on the right track to sell some of the state housing (and Labour has continued) that largely was in the wrong areas, wrong type of housing and was poorly maintained. A lot of it was sold to organisations that are much better to provide social housing than central Government is.

Balance
18-07-2020, 09:51 AM
You've misread my post. I said the gender quotas for Labour have been disastrous (Claire Curran a good example) and to my knowledge, National has never had them. So that answers the first line in your post and the rest is not relevant to my post that you've quoted.

And for the record, I agree National underfunded some critical infrastructure like hospital and school buildings but I think they were on the right track to sell some of the state housing (and Labour has continued) that largely was in the wrong areas, wrong type of housing and was poorly maintained. A lot of it was sold to organisations that are much better to provide social housing than central Government is.

Talk to any developer and builder involved in building and supplying state homes to Kainga Ora (new name for Housing NZ to cover up Kiwibuild disaster) and they will tell you that it is a bottomless pit which they are extremely happy whenever Labour comes into power - BONANZA time.

They are building houses for third generation state tenants as well as for extended families in the dozens.

Breeding beneficiaries - Labour’s way of building up its voters’ base using taxpayers’ funds under the pretence of ‘be kind’.

Labour has never understood why it is better to teach a man to fish vs giving a man a fish - party of mostly state beneficiaries themselves who have never created jobs in their lives.