National - FFS!

[winner69]

Must say “Digger ready” sounds better than “shovel ready” ....and more ambitious. ..if they get a chance to start the diggers up

[Panda-NZ-]

Peters reackons there is a dirty campaign coming up..

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-national-mps-still-have-an-affection-for-winston-peters.html

[tim23]

National, Act : 45%
Labour, Green + top/mp= 47%

The elected opposition to the national party in 2017 = 55%

Good call - remember reading post the 2017 election that a columnist explained to the silly Nats who don't seem to understand MMP after complaining that the Nats won the 2017 election (you still hear it too) about those mathematical aids we used in the primers - Cuisenaire rods. You get the red, green and black rods and join them together and they are longer that the blue rod - pretty simple. And the Nats conveniently fail to recall that Labour got more votes in the 1981 and 1978 elections...

[Balance]

Good call - remember reading post the 2017 election that a columnist explained to the silly Nats who don't seem to understand MMP after complaining that the Nats won the 2017 election (you still hear it too) about those mathematical aids we used in the primers - Cuisenaire rods. You get the red, green and black rods and join them together and they are longer that the blue rod - pretty simple. And the Nats conveniently fail to recall that Labour got more votes in the 1981 and 1978 elections...

Class A garbage as per usual from those who back Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents & non-performers.

https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2017/

Labour (36.9%) + Greens (6.3%) = 43.2%

National (44.4%) + ACT (0.5%) = 44.9% + TOP + Maori Party + etc = 49.6%

Pathetic, really trying to rewrite history to suit the narrative.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349054

Good stuff - Collins rules out working with Winston & NZF.

Exactly what should have been done last election just as John Key did.

Let those who support NZF find themselves in the wilderness. :t_up:

[Joshuatree]

Peters reackons there is a dirty campaign coming up..

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-national-mps-still-have-an-affection-for-winston-peters.html

Does a leopard change her spots? This is the last thing this country needs and a death knell for National as we know it.

"While Collins had been exonerated of an accusation not in Dirty Politics, but which led to Prime Minister John Key removing her from Cabinet - namely, that she was involved in a smear campaign against the Serious Fraud Office boss Adam Feeley - Hager argued the chapter dedicated to Collins still stood."
“It shows a pettiness and meanness, as she sent snippets of gossip and dirt to Cameron Slater and helped him to attack people on his blog - including details of a public servant who was then strongly attacked on Slater's blog, including receiving death threats,” he said.

Comment Can Collins cause political pain? National’s new leader is, for better and for worse, a known quantity to Kiwi voters. Jul 15 2020 (https://www.newsroom.co.nz/news/can-judith-collins-cause-the-govt-political-pain)

[Balance]

Does a leopard change her spots? This is the last thing this country needs and a death knell for National as we know it.

"While Collins had been exonerated of an accusation not in Dirty Politics, but which led to Prime Minister John Key removing her from Cabinet - namely, that she was involved in a smear campaign against the Serious Fraud Office boss Adam Feeley - Hager argued the chapter dedicated to Collins still stood."
“It shows a pettiness and meanness, as she sent snippets of gossip and dirt to Cameron Slater and helped him to attack people on his blog - including details of a public servant who was then strongly attacked on Slater's blog, including receiving death threats,” he said.

Comment Can Collins cause political pain? National’s new leader is, for better and for worse, a known quantity to Kiwi voters. Jul 15 2020 (https://www.newsroom.co.nz/news/can-judith-collins-cause-the-govt-political-pain)

Quoting Winston ‘Owen Glenn’ Peters? Anxiety levels must be rising! 🤣

Feel the fear from Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents?

What have they deliver in the last 2.75 years against the huge promises they made to get 36.9% in 2017?

[Balance]

Ok, let's take a step back and allow you the benefit of explaining what Labour has actually delivered against the huge promises they made to win 38% of the vote in 2017.

Actually it’s 36.9%.

But let’s give Blue Skies an opportunity to explain, shall we?

Please do not hold back - start with Kiwibuild.

[Panda-NZ-]

Quoting Winston ‘Owen Glenn’ Peters? Must be getting desperate!

Feel the fear from Comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents?

not particuarly

[Joshuatree]

Does a leopard change her spots? This is the last thing this country needs and a death knell for National as we know it.

"While Collins had been exonerated of an accusation not in Dirty Politics, but which led to Prime Minister John Key removing her from Cabinet - namely, that she was involved in a smear campaign against the Serious Fraud Office boss Adam Feeley - Hager argued the chapter dedicated to Collins still stood."
“It shows a pettiness and meanness, as she sent snippets of gossip and dirt to Cameron Slater and helped him to attack people on his blog - including details of a public servant who was then strongly attacked on Slater's blog, including receiving death threats,” he said.

Comment Can Collins cause political pain? National’s new leader is, for better and for worse, a known quantity to Kiwi voters. Jul 15 2020 (https://www.newsroom.co.nz/news/can-judith-collins-cause-the-govt-political-pain)

So im interested to know who supports this type of retro nasty dirty politics?

[Balance]

So im interested to know who supports this type of retro nasty dirty politics?

Comrade Cindy 🐒 obviously does as she is happy to go to bed* & stay in bed with the conniving confirmed lying dirty trickster Winston ‘Owen Glenn’ Peters.🤮

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/peters-donation-allegations-creates-another-political-toothache-for-ardern

* electorally

[Panda-NZ-]

I think everything is fair in MMP. a win is a win.

Do you think its fair trump got in with 46% or Boris with 40?

[Balance]

So im interested to know who supports this type of retro nasty dirty politics?

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/winston-peters-should-stand-down-as-racing-minister

How do you think Comrade Cindy can continue to stay in bed with Winston Peters after such revelations?

Owen Glenn must be chuckling something hysterical!

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348845&ref=recommendedv1

Judith and her mate Slater smearing our health agency professionals for a political reason.

[Baa_Baa]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349054

Good stuff - Collins rules out working with Winston & NZF.

Exactly what should have been done last election just as John Key did.

Let those who support NZF find themselves in the wilderness. :t_up:

To be clear it is the National caucus that have ruled out working with NZF, well before Collins was leader, and that position still stands.

Same outcome though, just beggars belief that any minor party can end up ‘choosing‘ who will form the Government. MMP is broken.

[Panda-NZ-]

NZ first voters and MPs decide who to go with as it should be.

[artemis]

Mr Peters reckons he is receiving leaked National information. Maybe, maybe not. Hard to know with him and without a confession or a sting who would know. It does however seem that there may be National caucus leaks to one or more journalists.

That is a real concern and needs to be sorted pdq. I expect the investigation is well underway, or perhaps resolved. We may never be told, though the beltway itself is a sieve....

[Panda-NZ-]

Mr Peters reckons he is receiving leaked National information. Maybe, maybe not. Hard to know with him and without a confession or a sting who would know. It does however seem that there may be National caucus leaks to one or more journalists.



They changed leader three times. of course it could be done by some in there.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-judith-collins-has-no-intention-of-losing-election-as-national-mp-calls-her-placeholder-leader.html

She may be in there forever lol. interestingly an electoral wipeout may actually be good for her as dissenters are voted out and she can rebuild.

[fungus pudding]

To be clear it is the National caucus that have ruled out working with NZF, well before Collins was leader, and that position still stands.

Same outcome though, just beggars belief that any minor party can end up ‘choosing‘ who will form the Government. MMP is broken.


I think the worst aspect showed itself in the last election. That is the minor party waffling on for ages then announcing who he has decided will form the govt. Surely once parties to the coalition have agreed they should advise the Gov. General who should then make the formal announcement. Not Winston Peters or any other 5% party. That was an appalling display of arrogance - quite undignified.

[moka]

It is safe to say neither those MPs nor Collins would ever have thought Collins would end up being the "safe pair of hands".
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?objectid=12348272&&ref=topbox
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?objectid=12348272&&ref=topbox)
There will be shifts of emphasis – the law and order rhetoric will ramp up again, and the farmers will be happy Collins will not be putting up with any of that "nonsense" on the left.

By and large, leaders can be sorted by the rhetorical weapons they use for political surgery.
Ardern uses a scalpel, a nuanced and tidy nipping and tucking, wielded with a smile.
Bridges used his bare fists, thudding away to some effect until Covid-19 came along, but bruising his own knuckles in the process.
Collins will be oiling up the chainsaw as we speak.

[moka]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-judith-collins-has-no-intention-of-losing-election-as-national-mp-calls-her-placeholder-leader.html

She'll be in there forever lol. An electoral wipeout may actually be good for her as dissenters are voted out and she can rebuild.
Or is she just keeping the seat warm for Chris Luxon?

[Panda-NZ-]

where are her environmental policies? does removing the rma mean we can build a carpark through milford sounds..

[moka]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122151705/oldschool-judith-collins-has-clearly-decided-the-younger-vote-isnt-worth-fighting-for
Collins hasn’t just written off young middle-class lefties. She seems broadly uninterested in under-30-somethings as a whole.
Normally, leaders at least pretend that youth voters are important, even if only to publicly lament how few of us actually vote. But Crusher isn’t trying to style herself as a good option for younger voters; she really just seems to be gunning for the support of older voters who are annoyed or confused (or both) by the changing times.
Take her stance on refusing to engage on issues of diversity. One of the most defining traits of Millennials is a willingness to engage more on the topic of race. Among the young Left and the young Right (and even the centre) we all talk about issues like racism, diversity and systemic racial injustice. We may disagree on how to tackle these issues, but both sides acknowledge that they’re topical, relevant and worthy of debate.

[jonu]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122151705/oldschool-judith-collins-has-clearly-decided-the-younger-vote-isnt-worth-fighting-for
Collins hasn’t just written off young middle-class lefties. She seems broadly uninterested in under-30-somethings as a whole.
Normally, leaders at least pretend that youth voters are important, even if only to publicly lament how few of us actually vote. But Crusher isn’t trying to style herself as a good option for younger voters; she really just seems to be gunning for the support of older voters who are annoyed or confused (or both) by the changing times.
Take her stance on refusing to engage on issues of diversity. One of the most defining traits of Millennials is a willingness to engage more on the topic of race. Among the young Left and the young Right (and even the centre) we all talk about issues like racism, diversity and systemic racial injustice. We may disagree on how to tackle these issues, but both sides acknowledge that they’re topical, relevant and worthy of debate.


I read the occasional piece from Verity Johnson...just to keep tabs on where the woke are currently concentrating their efforts.

I suspect Collins will pride herself in being anti-woke....and as long as it is done in moderation, that is fine by me. What worries me internationally, is that it won't be done in moderation. Cultural Marxism's long march through the institutions is reaching its zenith and the Conservative fight back is starting. Scott Morrison partially tapped into this with his "Silent Australians".

[artemis]

..... the Conservative fight back is starting. Scott Morrison partially tapped into this with his "Silent Australians".

I read Mr Jackson's 'racially divisive' post about Ms Collins and seriously wonder if he has misread the 'quiet Kiwi'.

[iceman]

Well done Left supporters:
As we've seen on this thread they are so desperate they are going back to some old Nicki Hager stuff and now attacking National MPs billboards and caravans.
Shameful.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349103

https://www.facebook.com/honnicksmith/photos/a.306287793195291/884048395419225/

Talk about dirty politics

[Balance]

I read Mr Jackson's 'racially divisive' post about Ms Collins and seriously wonder if he has misread the 'quiet Kiwi'.

From my friends’ three under 30s children (Two in NZ & one in Oz) who voted Labour last election :

‘We hated John Key’s guts for locking us out of the property market. So we voted Labour with their Kiwibuild, capital gains tax and reduced immigration policies. Nothing has changed and things have got worse.’

They have not said who they are going to vote for so it’s really up to the parties to convince voters like them who can offer the solution.

Kiwibuild - less than 400 out of 16,000 promised. - less than 5%! This is the monumental scale of this government’s failure to deliver.

[Balance]

Well done Left supporters:
As we've seen on this thread they are so desperate they are going back to some old Nicki Hager stuff and now attacking National MPs billboards and caravans.
Shameful.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349103

https://www.facebook.com/honnicksmith/photos/a.306287793195291/884048395419225/

They obviously are not heeding Comrade Cindy’s message to be kind?

Watch for the backlash from the quiet kiwis. 👍

[iceman]

They obviously are not heeding Comrade Cindy’s message to be kind?

Watch for the backlash from the quiet kiwis. ��

I think that's exactly what is going to happen. The "silent Kiwis" will stand up and vote.

[fungus pudding]

I think that's exactly what is going to happen. The "silent Kiwis" will stand up and vote.

.....as they always do.

[Panda-NZ-]

Talk about dirty politics

It seems abortion activists defaced a labour sign too. :\

[Balance]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421530/covid-19-national-to-charge-for-quarantine

Sensible policy - charge returnees as NSW is already.

Anyone who intends to return to NZ better do so by September 2020.

[tim23]

Well done Left supporters:
As we've seen on this thread they are so desperate they are going back to some old Nicki Hager stuff and now attacking National MPs billboards and caravans.
Shameful.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349103

https://www.facebook.com/honnicksmith/photos/a.306287793195291/884048395419225/

Talk about dirty politics

Bishop would know how to recognise a dickhead...

[Balance]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421530/covid-19-national-to-charge-for-quarantine

Sensible policy - charge returnees as NSW is already.

Anyone who intends to return to NZ better do so by September 2020.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349183

And on cue, the party which was hoping to sail through the election without any policies has agreed to implement the policy!

Comrade Cindy 🐒 spreading her woke pixie dust to head off Crusher Collins? 🚜

[moka]

Well done Left supporters:
As we've seen on this thread they are so desperate they are going back to some old Nicki Hager stuff and now attacking National MPs billboards and caravans.
Shameful.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349103

https://www.facebook.com/honnicksmith/photos/a.306287793195291/884048395419225/

Talk about dirty politics
I don’t think it was Left supporters who defaced Jacinda Ardern’s billboards with crude sexist language. So vandalism is not limited to the Left according to the evidence in the article, although you choose to only focus on the National billboards.

[moka]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349183

And on cue, the party which was hoping to sail through the election without any policies has agreed to implement the policy!


Charging for managed isolation has been on Labour’s agenda since April, but as Megan Woods says "National's stated commitment to a charging regime is a good sign there will be widespread parliamentary support for such a move.”
Earlier today it was revealed that anyone who arrived in New Zealand from October 3 would be charged a $3000 fee per adult for their managed isolation if National wins the election. Interesting to see National and Labour have similar thinking.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349183
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349183)
It is a change of policy because National Party leader Todd Muller was against the Government charging Kiwi residents or citizens for the cost of Covid-19 quarantine or self-isolation.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300040533/coronavirus-national-against-charging-kiwis-for-returning-home-nz-first-appears-keen
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/121958128/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-advised-kiwis-overseas-for-extended-period-should-pay-quarantine-costs

[moka]

Labour and National both want to reform the RMA, more similar thinking.
In July last year the Government launched a comprehensive overhaul of the Resource Management Act (RMA) to cut complexity and costs and better enable urban development, while also improving protection of the environment.
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/comprehensive-overhaul-rma (https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/comprehensive-overhaul-rma)

The final report to the Minister is now on track to be delivered in late June. It was originally scheduled to be released at the end of May but due to the disruption caused by the COVID-19 pandemic response, it has been slightly delayed.
https://www.mfe.govt.nz/rmreview
(https://www.mfe.govt.nz/rmreview)
Judith Collins promises to abolish RMA. The RMA fast-track legislation passed in response to Covid-19 provides a useful interim framework, but is too limited, she said.
If elected National will make far more extensive use of the Labour’s fast-track act.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348810 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348810)

[Zaphod]

The biggest issue I've run into with respect to the RMA is that it is being used as a tool to bludgeon another party. For example, one supermarket lodged an objection under the RMA against a competitor attempting to establish an operation near them. Ultimately they lost the case in the EC, however by this time several years and hundreds of thousands of dollars had been spent in legal costs.

A personal example is one neighbour to a development lodging an official objection while simultaneously agreeing to remove the objection if $75K was paid to them for loss of value to their property, not officially quantified. Six others, immediately located next door in more effected positions, did not object.

Those are some of issues that need to be addressed in the RMA from my perspective.

[Panda-NZ-]

We are a lightly regulated country compared to somewhere like Australia, uk, council rules in most areas. Im generally happy with how things are myself and these issues can be managed easily enough.


Labour and National both want to reform the RMA, more similar thinking.

National don't want to, only labour may be able to be trusted on that. Since they dont need to motivate themselves with policies like this.

[Blue Skies]

Another National MP quitting after an 'unfortunate incident' last Wednesday.
That's 19 MP's they've lost so far this term and there's still 2 months to go.
As said in an editorial, after the last election they promised to be the opposition from hell. But instead they've been the opposition in hell.
So many issues relating to health problems, they need to take more care of their MP's.
Can't keep loosing them at this rate.

[fungus pudding]

Hard luck Winston.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300061131/winston-peters-ordered-to-pay-317k-after-failed-superannuation-legal-action

He of all politicians should have learnt not to smack his gums about, accusing National MPs, without evidence or proof.

[Panda-NZ-]

He's eligible for appeal so its somewhat meaningless so far. we'll know the result of that in a couple of years..

[dobby41]

Another National MP quitting after an 'unfortunate incident' last Wednesday.
That's 19 MP's they've lost so far this term and there's still 2 months to go.
As said in an editorial, after the last election they promised to be the opposition from hell. But instead they've been the opposition in hell.
So many issues relating to health problems, they need to take more care of their MP's.
Can't keep loosing them at this rate.

The caucus is right behind Crusher - unfortunately they seem to be walking in the wrong direction.
What a mess - who'd want to have these numpties run the country, they can't even run themselves.

[tipsy]

MPs sending out dick pics now, great stuff guys.

[Balance]

The caucus is right behind Crusher - unfortunately they seem to be walking in the wrong direction.
What a mess - who'd want to have these numpties run the country, they can't even run themselves.

Dealt with, gone and good riddance.

Compare and contrast with Comrade Cindy’s handling of the summer camp’s sex scandal.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/09/embarrassment-international-media-reacts-to-labour-sexual-assault-scandal.html

[Blue Skies]

After watching One News, the title of this thread could not be more apt!
Disaster after disaster, trying to hold themselves together, and that was last week.
New week & new disaster!

[black knat]

After watching One News, the title of this thread could not be more apt!
Disaster after disaster, trying to hold themselves together, and that was last week.
New week & new disaster!

Been a a pretty good week for National for any objective observer... watching Judith Collins brilliant straight out of the blocks. "Disaster after disaster" typical assessment from Jessica Mutch Mckay in her Wellington beltway bubble.

[tim23]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349183

And on cue, the party which was hoping to sail through the election without any policies has agreed to implement the policy!

Comrade Cindy �� spreading her woke pixie dust to head off Crusher Collins? ��

You should stop using that silly word "woke". Just because your mate Mike Hosking loves to use it is a great reason not too - you can be better than that Balance!

[tim23]

I don’t think it was Left supporters who defaced Jacinda Ardern’s billboards with crude sexist language. So vandalism is not limited to the Left according to the evidence in the article, although you choose to only focus on the National billboards.

Quite right - the Tories on this site are more one eyed than a Canterbury rugby supporter.

[Balance]

You should stop using that silly word "woke". Just because your mate Mike Hosking loves to use it is a great reason not too - you can be better than that Balance!

Actually used by Comrade Cindy’s kingmaker Winston Peters to describe her! 😁

Guess she is in good company huh?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349212

[jonu]

You should stop using that silly word "woke". Just because your mate Mike Hosking loves to use it is a great reason not too - you can be better than that Balance!

The "woke" need to be ridiculed and exposed at every opportunity. They are determined to pull down Western Capitalism with their gut churning, navel gazing, self consuming BS. "WAKE" up and see Cultural Marxism for what it is.

Crusher's open disdain for the woke is what has Cindy's Cabinet of Incompetents looking nervously over their shoulders.

[moka]

I agree with Barry Soper it is unacceptable for Judith Collins to blame mental health for Andrew Falloon’s departure.
The first anyone knew of his demise was a statement from his office mid-afternoon, telling us he'd made a number of mistakes and he apologised to those who had been affected.
Five minutes later, Collins fired a grenade into the mix, putting out a statement telling us he's suffering from significant mental health issues.
It's been confirmed Falloon sent an indecent photo to a university student.
To muddy the mental health waters in this way is simply unacceptable.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349527

[Joshuatree]

Judith Collins Honesty is such a lonely word.

[JBmurc]

The "woke" need to be ridiculed and exposed at every opportunity. They are determined to pull down Western Capitalism with their gut churning, navel gazing, self consuming BS. "WAKE" up and see Cultural Marxism for what it is.

Crusher's open disdain for the woke is what has Cindy's Cabinet of Incompetents looking nervously over their shoulders.


As too why Labour needs so many working groups ... they don't have a clue


Jacinda leader thats highest office after working as PA and Chippy was President of the International Union of Socialist Youth....Good luck Comrades

Finance Minister Man-love whose only experience in Finance was that he was treasurer of the SRC at Uni

former Health Minister who was not even a proper Doctor

Twyford , that delusional idiot ...

.....then we have a failing National that outside a few seem keen to go elsewhere 20% party gone..Crusher should have been leader long ago ..

NZ First = Gonnee ... Winnie looks after winnie.. same old lines

Greens --wacko jobs that don't have a clue ..

---Act .... doing better than most might well steal some of National/NZF voter base ... will they get 5% ?? and what will they add ? another big talker polly ?

Rant over

[Panda-NZ-]

Judith Collins Honesty is such a lonely word.

20 years at politics..shameful really.

[iceman]

20 years at politics..shameful. term limits?

OMG. Why would you want term limits on electorate MPs that have to stand in a democratic elections every 3 years ? Do you not like democracy ?

[moka]

The "woke" need to be ridiculed and exposed at every opportunity. They are determined to pull down Western Capitalism with their gut churning, navel gazing, self consuming BS. "WAKE" up and see Cultural Marxism for what it is.


So I had a look to see Cultural Marxism for what it is.
A conspiracy theory, propaganda, a fantasy, a fairy tale.
'Cultural Marxism': a uniting theory for rightwingers who love to play the victim
The theory of cultural Marxism is integral to the fantasy life of the contemporary right.
The conspiracy theorists claim that these “cultural Marxists” began to use insidious forms of psychological manipulation to upend the west, to undermine the culture and values that had sustained the world’s most powerful capitalist nation.
They invoke the spectre of “cultural Marxism” to account for things they disapprove of – things like Islamic immigrant communities, feminism, and say it promotes and even enforces ideas which were intended to destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise: feminism, multiculturalism, gay rights and atheism.

Anyone who takes a cool look at the last three decades of politics will think it bizarre that anyone could interpret what’s happened as the triumph of an all-powerful left.
The fairytale of cultural Marxism provided a post-communist adversary located specifically in the cultural realm – academics, Hollywood, journalists, civil rights activists and feminists. It has been a mainstay of conservative activism and rhetoric ever since.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/19/cultural-marxism-a-uniting-theory-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim

[moka]

Nicky Hager: Five reasons why Judith Collins won’t be prime minister

1. Personal ambition is not enough
2. Attack politics are unpopular
3. Collins wasn’t ‘cleared’ of Dirty Politics
4. Many of her own colleagues don’t like her
5. Judith Collins is not Donald Trump

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/20-07-2020/nicky-hager-five-reasons-why-judith-collins-wont-be-prime-minister/

[blackcap]

Nicky Hager: Five reasons why Judith Collins won’t be prime minister

1. Personal ambition is not enough
2. Attack politics are unpopular
3. Collins wasn’t ‘cleared’ of Dirty Politics
4. Many of her own colleagues don’t like her
5. Judith Collins is not Donald Trump

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/20-07-2020/nicky-hager-five-reasons-why-judith-collins-wont-be-prime-minister/

Nicky Hagar really? He is also of the woke living in lala land brigage.

But he might be right, I don't think Judith will be PM this time round. But if she is there in another 3 years time then I really do fancy her chances.

[BlackPeter]

MPs sending out dick pics now, great stuff guys.

Well, wasn't this what qualified Trump for president? Maybe it works in NZ as well ...

[Bjauck]

20 years at politics..shameful. term limits? Term limits in a democracy as with the limiting the term of the President of the USA is anti-democratic. It could be third term Obama instead of first term Trump at the moment. The US electors were denied that option.

[fungus pudding]

OMG. Why would you want term limits on electorate MPs that have to stand in a democratic elections every 3 years ? Do you not like democracy ?

Probably one of the mob who like gender quotas, and the like, and want ability, experience and talent pushed to the back of the queue.

[Bjauck]

Nicky Hagar really? He is also of the woke living in lala land brigage... At least he is not out of control Pit Bull that goes around savaging people?

[fungus pudding]

MPs sending out dick pics now, great stuff guys.

Can't be dick pics. Apparently pics are not of him, so unless the owner of the dick has tattooed his name on his member* then they ain't dick-pics.

*not to be confused with member of parliament.

[Panda-NZ-]

Michelle is probably still controlling things even if she is "out of politics" for a few months. Interesting internal things that could be going on atm.

[Zaphod]

National don't want to, only labour can be trusted on that. Since they dont need to motivate "the base" with an RMA plan that is simply unworkable.

What do you base the assertion that "National don't want to" on?

[Panda-NZ-]

Their history in government maybe? nine years of doing nothing on the rma..

[Blue Skies]

Term limits in a democracy as with the limiting the term of the President of the USA is anti-democratic. It could be third term Obama instead of first term Trump at the moment. The US electors were denied that option.



Obviously you need a bit of a history lesson & I mean that in a helpful way.
George Washington the first President of the US served only 2 terms when he was so revered he could have served many more. Why?
Because the US had just separated from England & the contemporary way of ruling at that time in England & much of Europe was monarchy's which at that time were all powerful & anything but democratic.
He wanted to return power to the people in the new Republic & so by setting this precedent of limited terms, would avoid the possibility of the establishment of an undemocratic monarchy in the US.
If you consider for a moment the situation in Russia & China at the moment where both current leaders have changed their constitutions to allow themselves to become lifelong leaders with few checks on their power, which is dangerous & anything but democratic.
Hope this helps.

[Zaphod]

Nicky Hager: Five reasons why Judith Collins won’t be prime minister

1. Personal ambition is not enough
2. Attack politics are unpopular
3. Collins wasn’t ‘cleared’ of Dirty Politics
4. Many of her own colleagues don’t like her
5. Judith Collins is not Donald Trump

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/20-07-2020/nicky-hager-five-reasons-why-judith-collins-wont-be-prime-minister/

A list he has based upon conjecture and full of irrelevance. Point five especially; we do not need nor want a Trump clone in NZ politics.

[Joshuatree]

Nicky Hager: Five reasons why Judith Collins won’t be prime minister

1. Personal ambition is not enough
2. Attack politics are unpopular
3. Collins wasn’t ‘cleared’ of Dirty Politics
4. Many of her own colleagues don’t like her
5. Judith Collins is not Donald Trump

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/20-07-2020/nicky-hager-five-reasons-why-judith-collins-wont-be-prime-minister/

Aint that the truth.Some people around here cant handle the truth.

[Zaphod]

Their history in government maybe? nine years of doing nothing on the rma..

Then by your own criteria, Labour don't want to do anything either.

Repealing or even reforming the RMA is going to be highly complicated and take a least one full term, probably more.

[jonu]

So I had a look to see Cultural Marxism for what it is.
A conspiracy theory, propaganda, a fantasy, a fairy tale.
'Cultural Marxism': a uniting theory for rightwingers who love to play the victim
The theory of cultural Marxism is integral to the fantasy life of the contemporary right.
The conspiracy theorists claim that these “cultural Marxists” began to use insidious forms of psychological manipulation to upend the west, to undermine the culture and values that had sustained the world’s most powerful capitalist nation.
They invoke the spectre of “cultural Marxism” to account for things they disapprove of – things like Islamic immigrant communities, feminism, and say it promotes and even enforces ideas which were intended to destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise: feminism, multiculturalism, gay rights and atheism.

Anyone who takes a cool look at the last three decades of politics will think it bizarre that anyone could interpret what’s happened as the triumph of an all-powerful left.
The fairytale of cultural Marxism provided a post-communist adversary located specifically in the cultural realm – academics, Hollywood, journalists, civil rights activists and feminists. It has been a mainstay of conservative activism and rhetoric ever since.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/19/cultural-marxism-a-uniting-theory-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim

Really Moka? You went to a column in a left leaning broadsheet from leftie Jason "working class shirt" Wilson for your definition of Cultural Marxism?

He bothered to get this bit mostly right

t begins in the 1910s and 1920s. When the socialist revolution failed to materialise beyond the Soviet Union, Marxist thinkers like Antonio Gramsci and Georg Lukacs tried to explain why. Their answer was that culture and religion blunted the proletariat’s desire to revolt, and the solution was that Marxists should carry out a “long march through the institutions” – universities and schools, government bureaucracies and the media – so that cultural values could be progressively changed from above.

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Adapting this, later thinkers of the Frankfurt School decided that the key to destroying capitalism was to mix up Marx with a bit of Freud, since workers were not only economically oppressed, but made orderly by sexual repression and other social conventions. The problem was not only capitalism as an economic system, but the family, gender hierarchies, normal sexuality – in short, the whole suite of traditional western values.




From there on he sets about trying to attach it to a bunch of extremist Right Wingers. It is a problem that extremists will launch against it....but that doesn't take away the original problem.

The Marxist thinkers not only saw the failure of Economic Communism to spread outside then Russia, they saw Lenin, Trotsky and Stalins slaughtering to enforce it. They were arrogant enough to assume the Soviet would prove to be an outlier and so tried the Cultural Route. The "Long March Through The Institutions" is bearing fruit 100 years later.

If the Democrats manage to lose against Trump (they are capable of it!) the USA is in for a very bumpy ride. The teeth gnashing was bad enough after Hillary failed. They have only themselves to blame.

I was genuinely surprised how nasty some of the expressed disappointment was from people I knew when John Key won his last term in office. Labour thought they had that election in the bag....much as the Dems think they have Trump on the ropes.

[dobby41]

Then by your own criteria, Labour don't want to do anything either.

Repealing or even reforming the RMA is going to be highly complicated and take a least one full term, probably more.

So the 'plan' National come up with is really just Labours plan anyway.

[tipsy]

Can't be dick pics. Apparently pics are not of him, so unless the owner of the dick has tattooed his name on his member* then they ain't dick-pics.

*not to be confused with member of parliament.

Fair enough, I put 2 n 2 together and came up with 5.

[Bjauck]

Obviously you need a bit of a history lesson & I mean that in a helpful way.
George Washington the first President of the US served only 2 terms when he was so revered he could have served many more. Why?
Because the US had just separated from England & the contemporary way of ruling at that time in England & much of Europe was monarchy's which at that time were all powerful & anything but democratic.
He wanted to return power to the people in the new Republic & so by setting this precedent of limited terms, would avoid the possibility of the establishment of an undemocratic monarchy in the US.
If you consider for a moment the situation in Russia & China at the moment where both current leaders have changed their constitutions to allow themselves to become lifelong leaders with few checks on their power, which is dangerous & anything but democratic.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the condescending post. It was no help.

The proscription on more than two terms occurred much later than Washington. It may well have been his choice not to stand, it was not constitutional compunction.
You omitted a discussion on FDR. Why?

The 22nd amendment came after FDR and was passed in 1947. This made compulsory a tradition that some Presidents had voluntarily accepted. So from 1947 Presidents could not seek a third term and the people were denied the ability to vote in a person for a third term.

So the constitutional amendment was paternalist as those who drafted it did not think that the people's vote could be trusted?

Why wouldn't the impeachment process not be sufficient?

[Blue Skies]

Thanks for the condescending post. It was no help.

The proscription on more than two terms occurred much later than Washington. It may well have been his choice not to stand, it was not constitutional compunction.
You omitted a discussion on FDR. Why?

The 22nd amendment came after FDR and was passed in 1947. This made compulsory a tradition that some Presidents had voluntarily accepted. So from 1947 Presidents could not seek a third term and the people were denied the ability to vote in a person for a third term.

So the constitutional amendment was paternalist as those who drafted it did not think that the people's vote could be trusted?

Why wouldn't the impeachment process not be sufficient?



I wasn't being condescending, but can see you've obviously spent some time this morning researching the topic.

Just pointing out I said Washington set a 'precedent' & chose that word because it's the correct word for what he did & wanted others to follow.

As for the impeachment process & why it may not be sufficient. If you need to ask, maybe after you go & live in the US preferably DC, for a few years you'ld understand.

[Bjauck]

I wasn't being condescending, but can see you've obviously spent some time this morning researching the topic.

Just pointing out I said Washington set a 'precedent' & chose that word because it's the correct word for what he did & wanted others to follow.

As for the impeachment process & why it may not be sufficient. If you need to ask, maybe after you go & live in the US preferably DC, for a few years you'ld understand.
Well no actually I just had to check on the year. Surely there are other checks and balances?

I do query the relevant lessons in the details in current constitutional democracy that still can be gleaned from all the ideas of slave owning C18th American colonists who railed against imperial taxation.

The incredibly amounts of money, and the influence and favour that may bring, needing to be raised for presidential campaigns should perhaps be a greater concern in a democracy than limiting the number of four year terms.

[Panda-NZ-]

Collins 'believes'. interesting.

[Blue Skies]

Well no actually I just had to check on the year. Surely there are other checks and balances?

I do query the relevant lessons in the details in current constitutional democracy that still can be gleaned from all the ideas of slave owning C18th American colonists who railed against imperial taxation.

The incredibly amounts of money, and the influence and favour that may bring, needing to be raised for presidential campaigns should perhaps be a greater concern in a democracy than limiting the number of four year terms.


Yes agree with you.

[Panda-NZ-]

We have no divided houses or consitution here in NZ so pretty much everything only needs a majority to pass. I assume term limits would be a simple thing to pass or would it need cross-party support?

[Zaphod]

So the 'plan' National come up with is really just Labours plan anyway.

Is it? How are they exactly the same?

[iceman]

Is it? How are they exactly the same?

I was thinking exactly the same but thought I must have missed something. I didn't understand how dobby41 came to that conclusion when National has come out and said they will abolish the RMA. I have not seen Labour say they would do that.

[jonu]

We have no divided houses or consitution here in NZ so pretty much everything only needs a majority to pass. I assume term limits would be a simple thing to pass or would it need cross-party support?

As far as I know the 2 term limit in the US applies only to the Presidency. We don't have a President. We do have a Governor General which is generally a one term 5 year appointment.

If you are suggesting MPs should be limited in the number of terms they can serve, then I fear we will end up with Cindy's Cabinet of Incompetents becoming a regular occurrence. Long serving MPs have a wealth of knowledge of the machinations of government, as do long serving Public Servants.

I can see no useful purpose in limiting the number of terms an MP can serve. SERVE being the operative word!

[dobby41]

If you are suggesting MPs should be limited in the number of terms they can serve, then I fear we will end up with Cindy's Cabinet of Incompetents becoming a regular occurrence. Long serving MPs have a wealth of knowledge of the machinations of government, as do long serving Public Servants.


Given the turn-over of MPs for National they can't really claim a lot of experiance.

[jonu]

Given the turn-over of MPs for National they can't really claim a lot of experiance.

Don't forget they have a bigger caucus than Labour. Yes they have lost experience, but still have plenty who have served in Cabinet. They are inexperienced as Opposition! And that has showed....however Labour's appalling record of non-delivery is far more concerning.

I consider Andrew Little perhaps the most dangerous man in the country at present. Complete fool with apparently no concept of the precepts of the Justice system of which he is Minister.

Throw in Kelvin Davis (a decent enough person well out of his depth) who is Labour's deputy due to their slavish devotion to diversity, and you see why both Crusher and Winnie are going to go after the woke BS of Labour and the Greens.

Crusher has already stated she is only interested in competence...something Cindy should have learnt by now after having to let 3 Minister's go for showing a complete lack of it. How Twyford has survived and been promoted up the list has gone unanswered the multiple times I have asked on this forum. Even Labourites are baffled on that one. Does he have dirt on someone?

[Panda-NZ-]

3 MPs v 17 MPs and the opposition are not even in government.

[Bjauck]

We have no divided houses or consitution here in NZ so pretty much everything only needs a majority to pass. I assume term limits would be a simple thing to pass or would it need cross-party support?I am not sure it is desirable to control in which member the House of Representatives could have confidence to lead a government.

Our Head of State has the job for life - but I guess parliament could pass a Republic Act, to which the GG would have to assent by convention, with a simple parliamentary majority as with any statute. More than likely there could be referendum on the subject, although that would be up to parliament to determine I guess. AFAIK there is no entrenched provision enshrining the monarchy in NZ’s constitutional set-up which is only partly codified.

[Panda-NZ-]

NZ had a referendum on asset sales but it was ignored for the most part sadly.

[dobby41]

Crusher like a damp squib in the house today.
She really needs to up her game - so much for eating Jacinda alive as some have suggested.

[dobby41]

Is it? How are they exactly the same?

Actually you're right - they aren't the same but have the same timeline.
National had 9 years trying last time - I can't see them getting anywhere if they got in power - which they won't.

[dobby41]

What's with stopping paying into the Super fund?
If I could borrow at the rate the Govt can, and invest at the rate or return the Super Fund manages I'd be in boots and all.
Nat stopped it last time and missed huge gains.
I wouldn't let them manage my money.

[tim23]

Crusher like a damp squib in the house today.
She really needs to up her game - so much for eating Jacinda alive as some have suggested.

Its tough at the top Crusher, welcome to the job! Its our PM who might do the crushing - to you Judith!

[Zaphod]

Actually you're right - they aren't the same but have the same timeline.
National had 9 years trying last time - I can't see them getting anywhere if they got in power - which they won't.

Actually that's not even true. No party has tried to repeal the RMA, let alone for 9 years.

[tim23]

Its tough at the top Crusher, welcome to the job! Its our PM who might do the crushing - to you Judith!
PS even a pro National supporter gives round 1 to the PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349821

[Zaphod]

What's with stopping paying into the Super fund?
If I could borrow at the rate the Govt can, and invest at the rate or return the Super Fund manages I'd be in boots and all.
Nat stopped it last time and missed huge gains.
I wouldn't let them manage my money.

Leveraged to the hilt eh Dobby41? What could possibly go wrong borrowing massively in an tumultuous period for speculative investments that fund annuities? I guess if things go wrong we could follow Cullen's ideological burp and turn NatSup payments into a top-up on Kiwisaver annuity payments.

[Panda-NZ-]

Sad that you may be financially illiterate which can't be helped I suppose.

[Zaphod]

Sad that you are financially illiterate, can't be helped I suppose.

Resorting to personal attacks again, rather than posing facts that supports your position speaks volumes about you Panda.

[Panda-NZ-]

How much do you borrow on your house? or business? and what is the interest..

[Zaphod]

How much do you borrow on your house? or business? and what is the interest..

You need to take into account the risks around speculative investments, particularly where superannuation is concerned, along with existing debt levels which are extraordinarily high. Continuing to borrow like there's no tomorrow because interest rates are low is not necessarily a fiscally prudent move.

[Panda-NZ-]

200 other countries in the world are borrowing during this period.

[Balance]

Crusher like a damp squib in the house today.
She really needs to up her game - so much for eating Jacinda alive as some have suggested.

Feel the fear? :t_up:

[jonu]

200 other countries in the world are borrowing during this period.

All the more reason to be worried. Is this your definition of "financially literate"?

The Labour Party need to start paying more for their shills. The quality has fallen off somewhat.

[Panda-NZ-]

You need to take into account the risks around speculative investments, particularly where superannuation is concerned, along with existing debt levels which are extraordinarily high. Continuing to borrow like there's no tomorrow because interest rates are low is not necessarily a fiscally prudent move.

50% to GDP in 2024 and the lowest number in the world. National borrowed money too.

They sold assets during their nine years of little-to-no delivery and reduced nz's balance sheets.

[Baa_Baa]

All the more reason to be worried. Is this your definition of "financially literate"?

The Labour Party need to start paying more for their shills. The quality has fallen off somewhat.

They’re being fiscally prudent buying cheap shills. After all as he said there’s only a few thousand members here, imagine when he grows up getting the Facebook or Instagram gig! Have to start somewhere.

First to post, last to post, every day, full on, instant response, extremely biased. Dirty politics but some one has to do it. No denial no rebuttal. Shallow shill transparent like a pain in the glass.

[Panda-NZ-]

You can choose to dispute the facts if you like in whichever way you think is best. or not :)

[blackcap]

They’re being fiscally prudent buying cheap shills. After all as he said there’s only a few thousand members here, imagine when he grows up getting the Facebook or Instagram gig! Have to start somewhere.

First to post, last to post, every day, full on, instant response, extremely biased. Dirty politics but some one has to do it. No denial no rebuttal. Shallow shill transparent like a pain in the glass.

Best thing is not to feed the trolls, or the shill, in this case Panda. Best ignored.

[Panda-NZ-]

Andrew Falloon using mental health during resignation 'not acceptable' - Mental Health Foundation

"That use of mental health as a political shield or a political excuse - that is not acceptable. Mental distress should not be an excuse in politics," Robinson says.
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says anything that creates prejudice or stereotypes is "really unhelpful".
Falloon has faced consequences for his actions. On Tuesday he was dropped as an ambassador by charity White Ribbon, which aims to prevent domestic violence.


"It's really behavior that's completely inappropriate as a White Ribbon ambassador," White Ribbon campaign manager Rob McCann says.



https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/andrew-falloon-using-mental-health-during-resignation-not-acceptable-mental-health-foundation.html

maybe a a mental health crisis team should be deployed?

Why are they having these issues when we have govt ministers and many people in the wider society who don't seem to have an issue.

[moka]

It takes a while for the truth to come out.
Former National MP Andrew Falloon was caught out in an "enormous lie" with his sex-text scandal after telling his leader he only sent one explicit image to one woman once.
And he only came clean about sending porn to a teenager after he was confronted by National leader Judith Collins - despite being investigated by police.
Collins yesterday condemned Falloon, calling him "a liar" and saying it had become apparent his actions were a "pattern of behaviour" with three more women coming forward yesterday to say they'd also received explicit images.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349846

[moka]

The story keeps changing, in this earlier one it wasn’t him that sent the text.
National MP Andrew Falloon's explanation for the sex text scandal that ended his political career is understood to be that acquaintances at a party sent the offensive message.
Falloon, a first-term MP, resigned today and it emerged that a pornographic image had been sent to a young woman.
The Herald understands that Falloon's version of events is that he was at a party several weeks ago and briefly left his phone unattended - and at that time acquaintances used it to send the sexual image in question.
It is also understood that police have already investigated the incident and no action was taken.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12349534&ref=art_readmore

[Joshuatree]

50% to GDP in 2024 and the lowest number in the world. National borrowed money too.

They sold assets during their nine years of little-to-no delivery and reduced nz's balance sheets.

And now they want to borrow alot more with their black hole tunnels and roads, deeper and deeper , think big ehh LOL.

[Balance]

And now they want to borrow alot more with their black hole tunnels and roads, deeper and deeper , think big ehh LOL.

Oh dear, minister sacked for inappropriate relationship with staffer. Getting deeper and deeper indeed!

[BlackPeter]

Welcome to the mudpit!

While it seems to be clear that none of the parties in parliament seems to be able to select only candidates which are consistently able to behave in a professional manner (maybe with the exception of ACT and the Green party if we just look into the recent term), am I always surprised about the one-eyed approach of some of the posters around here.

As well - both larger parties have long lists of election promises they failed to achieve. Endless repetitions of them do not improve the standard of the discussion if I may say so.

The saying with glass houses and throwing stones springs to mind.

Any chance we could move the discussion to less nastyness and more substance?

Who has the best plan to re-open the borders?
Who has the best plan to grow the economy?
Any ideas to improve our consistently faulty and (as well nasty) so called justice system?
Education?
Housing?
Health-system?
Taxation?

BTW - just started to read some party policies. Anybody else read the Justice policy of the Green party (https://www.greens.org.nz/justice_policy)? It does look surprisingly humane and sensible to me ... how refreshing to have somebody who is not asking for locking up more and more people (of which some by the way prove to be innocent) but try to address the root causes of the problems:

Victims of crime should be at the centre of restorative justice
Prisons are a last resort because they’re expensive and often don’t work to reduce crime
Everyone has a right to access to justice and cost should not be a barrier
Break the cycle of family violence
Ah yes, and given that 50% of our prison population happen to have Maori roots - maybe it does makes sense to involve them in shaping and improving our justice system?

The old ACT / National / Labour approach of increasing penalties and locking up more and more people (whether they are guilty or innocent, just important to lock somebody up) and throwing the key away clearly do not work. NOWHERE in this world.

[RTM]

So Adern is advised of Faloon's indiscretions, lets Judith know and get on and resolve it. She didn't seem to make political capital out of it,

Someone advises Judith, she lets Adern know and seemed to then go to the press.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300062623/judith-collins-claims-to-have-tipoff-about-labour-minister

I know who acted better, it confirms my thoughts about Judy Collins. Sadly.

[Balance]

So Adern is advised of Faloon's indiscretions, lets Judith know and get on and resolve it. She didn't seem to make political capital out of it,

Someone advises Judith, she lets Adern know and seemed to then go to the press.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300062623/judith-collins-claims-to-have-tipoff-about-labour-minister

I know who acted better, it confirms my thoughts about Judy Collins. Sadly.

Sanctimonious garbage. Everyone in Parliament according to Barry Soper knew about the affair for months!

Cindy is so remote and removed from her people that she had no idea? Nobody bothered to let her know?

And she was able to react so quickly this morning?

Pigs just flew across the Wellington skies. 🤣

It is clear to that Comrade Cindy must have known but kept quiet so her hand had to be forced.

And her reaction is to go off like a firecracker - proving the point.

[moka]

The saying with glass houses and throwing stones springs to mind.

Any chance we could move the discussion to less nastyness and more substance?

BTW - just started to read some party policies. Anybody else read the Justice policy of the Green party (https://www.greens.org.nz/justice_policy)? It does look surprisingly humane and sensible to me ... how refreshing to have somebody who is not asking for locking up more and more people (of which some by the way prove to be innocent) but try to address the root causes of the problems:

Victims of crime should be at the centre of restorative justice
Prisons are a last resort because they’re expensive and often don’t work to reduce crime
Everyone has a right to access to justice and cost should not be a barrier
Break the cycle of family violence
Ah yes, and given that 50% of our prison population happen to have Maori roots - maybe it does makes sense to involve them in shaping and improving our justice system?

The old ACT / National / Labour approach of increasing penalties and locking up more and more people (whether they are guilty or innocent, just important to lock somebody up) and throwing the key away clearly do not work. NOWHERE in this world.
I agree, the evidence is that prisons don’t work to reduce crime and reoffending.
The empirical evidence it offers supports the hypothesis that entrenched criminal habits are strongly associated with the worst kinds of upbringing.

The typical prisoner seen in the SEU’s data was raised in a family used to crime and imprisonment. His school life was ruined by truanting, exclusion and being taken into care. (95% of the UK’s prison population of 94,000 is male.) He is too illiterate and innumerate for all but the most menial employment. His bad state of mental and physical health is aggravated by addiction to drugs or alcohol or both. He is poor, dependent on state benefits, and constantly in debt. He has no settled home-life.

Is it right that they alone should be held responsible for offences they would probably not have committed but for their bad luck of being born into the kind of circumstances that dispose men to crime?
https://philosophynow.org/issues/102/Prison_Doesnt_Work

[moka]

The politicians that make the laws want to be above the law because laws are about law and order and keeping Others in order, not them.
More than a year on from a damning report on Parliament as a toxic workplace, MPs are refusing to establish an independent commission to police bad behaviour.
In a sweeping review released last May, consultant Debbie Francis identified a systemic bullying and harassment problem within the corridors of power.

Francis said MPs were “treated like gods” with a “master-servant relationship”. She said there was a clear picture of a handful of MPs whose behaviour fitted the definition of bullying and harassment.
She described hearing about unreasonably aggressive behaviour, language or gestures, that five reported sexual assault to Francis, and all the allegations involved male-on-female violence.

“Some old characters have to move on before the place will finally change,” the insider said. “Some of them don’t want to be accountable, and think they can do what they want, as we have seen in the last 24 hours.
“They think they are a law unto themselves, and that is how it has operated for a very long time.”
Francis said “I am aware from member interviews that some members view a code of conduct as unnecessarily prescriptive or overly politically correct,” she wrote.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122194450/men-and-women-behaving-badly-why-wont-mps-sign-a-code-of-conduct (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122194450/men-and-women-behaving-badly-why-wont-mps-sign-a-code-of-conduct)

[artemis]

So Adern is advised of Faloon's indiscretions, lets Judith know and get on and resolve it. She didn't seem to make political capital out of it,

Someone advises Judith, she lets Adern know and seemed to then go to the press.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300062623/judith-collins-claims-to-have-tipoff-about-labour-minister

I know who acted better, it confirms my thoughts about Judy Collins. Sadly.

It is being reported that the media was aware before Ms Collins said anything publicly. In her interview today she said she was asked a direct question by Duncan Garner and replied also directly but without naming names. Mr Garner was not asking a random question.

[Balance]

It is being reported that the media was aware before Ms Collins said anything publicly. In her interview today she said she was asked a direct question by Duncan Garner and replied also directly but without naming names. Mr Garner was not asking a random question.

Exactly! Comrade Cindy’s spin doctors trying to hide behind the sanctimonious garbage that Collins did not act honourably as Cindy.

It is clear imo that Cindy knew and her hand was forced - resulting in the disaster it is for LG & Labour.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350115

Jacinda Ardern must have been the last person to know that the minister she's protected through thick and thin had been having an affair with a staffer.

The rumour mill over Iain Lees-Galloway's behaviour has been working overtime for months now.

The Prime Minister insists she was unaware of it - which raises the question over whether she's in touch with her party and in particular her ministry.

If she's not in touch with what's going on around her, surely those who are employed to keep her informed have dismally failed her.

[RTM]

Sanctimonious garbage. Everyone in Parliament according to Barry Soper knew about the affair for months!

Cindy is so remote and removed from her people that she had no idea? Nobody bothered to let her know?

And she was able to react so quickly this morning?

Pigs just flew across the Wellington skies. ��

It is clear to that Comrade Cindy must have known but kept quiet so her hand had to be forced.

And her reaction is to go off like a firecracker - proving the point.

Judith Collins acting right in line with her past character IMO. Leopards don't change their spots evidently.
You guys can have her.....I won't be voting National with her at the helm.
Amazing what you can ignore.

[Panda-NZ-]

Yes maybe.

[percy]

Judith Collins acting right in line with her past character IMO. Leopards don't change their spots evidently.
You guys can have her.....I won't be voting National with her at the helm.
Amazing what you can ignore.

Totally agree.Same old Leopard.

[Balance]

Crusher Collins - looks like she has Comrade Cindy scrambling to cover up again.

[artemis]

Judith Collins acting right in line with her past character IMO. Leopards don't change their spots evidently.
You guys can have her.....I won't be voting National with her at the helm.
Amazing what you can ignore.

Obviously up to you who you vote for, but I don't see what was done incorrectly here. Ms Ardern received information and passed it to Ms Collins. Ms Collins received information and passed it to Ms Ardern. Was one transaction Ok and the other not? I would say Mr L-G's situation needs more scrutiny as he is a Minister of the Crown.

You appear to think Ms Collins gave information to the media. She answered a direct question and named no names. That is her style and people like it or they don't. Personally I prefer direct and simple to word salad, fluff and spin even if I don't like the answer.

I know a bit about the beltway. Plenty of playing away.

[Balance]

Collins crushed Comrade Cindy - it's politics and Cindy came out today looking like she fell into a smelly puddle. Two if you count her feeble response to Winston's freebie trips to Antarctica to two dual citizenship Malaysians to get donations.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350209

Does anyone actually believe the PM fired Iain Lees-Galloway over just an affair?

Come on.

This affair's been known about for months down in Wellington. Even senior Labour MPs knew about it for months, and did nothing.
Unless there is more to this, it looks like he's been fired because the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was politically snookered. She couldn't do anything other than fire him because she had to match new National leader Judith Collins.

She gave Collins dirty information last week. Collins was decisive. Andrew Falloon lost his job.

So, tit for tat. Collins gave the PM dirty information yesterday. Ardern needed to look decisive too. She had to fire him.

She basically got snookered by a Collins power play.

[percy]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350209

Drivel as per usual from Heather.

[Balance]

Drivel as per usual from Heather.

From a Winston gold card carrier? :D

[Panda-NZ-]

Why devalue the opinions of older people?

[fungus pudding]

Drivel as per usual from Heather.

She should have booted him from his portfolio way back. He was simply incompetent in his role. Let's hope something arises so she can give Twyford the same treatment as she has given to Ian Hees Gon-away.

[percy]

From a Winston gold card carrier? :D

PROUD Winston Gold Card carrier.

[percy]

She should have booted him from his portfolio way back. He was simply incompetent in his role. Let's hope something arises so she can give Twyford the same treatment as she has given to Ian Hees Gon-away.

Agreed.........................
Think his mind was on other things............lol.

[Panda-NZ-]

Gold card and a gold plated insurance policy thrown in too :)

[Balance]

PROUD Winston Gold Card carrier.

Yup - can understand why his supporters are often referred to as cheap geriatric grey greedies.

And you actually believe that the wine box inquiry was won by Winston 'Owen Glenn' Peters! And that he helped cleaned up insider trading because of the wine box inquiry which was about the SFO & tax department! No wonder he knows he can lie and cheat! :D

[percy]

Certainly some left our shores in a big hurry.
I believe there was no extradition agreement with Ireland.

[RTM]

She should have booted him from his portfolio way back. He was simply incompetent in his role. Let's hope something arises so she can give Twyford the same treatment as she has given to Ian Hees Gon-away.

Completely agree.

[tim23]

Completely agree.

Even I agree ILG was useless

[Balance]

Even I agree ILG was useless

And therein lies the final irony - that if Comrade Cindy had fired him from his ministerial positions, he would still be a MP today and stand in the election.

I actually feel sorry for him and for his wife and daughter. It is a huge huge price he has paid.

[peat]

Jane Clifton on fire again.

Last election, a journalist victim of one of these febrile rumours lamented haggardly to this writer: “Where would I get the time even if – bleuch! - I had the inclination?”
Sadly for the innocent, the likes of National’s Andrew Falloon and Labour’s Ian Lees-Galloway suggest that even given today’s covid-crammed agenda, serious naughtiness can always be squeezed in.
Where there’s a willy, there’s a way.

[fungus pudding]

And therein lies the final irony - that if Comrade Cindy had fired him from his ministerial positions, he would still be a MP today and stand in the election.

I actually feel sorry for him and for his wife and daughter. It is a huge huge price he has paid.

Yes. He could have got better 'bang for his buck' from a professional so to speak.

[Balance]

Yes. He could have got better 'bang for his buck' from a professional so to speak.

Perhaps not - if he had used his official Paris trip to enjoy a romantic interlude as alleged.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122231475/government-probes-iain-leesgalloways-spending-after-his-dismissal

[fungus pudding]

Perhaps not - if he had used his official Paris trip to enjoy a romantic interlude as alleged.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122231475/government-probes-iain-leesgalloways-spending-after-his-dismissal


'Carrying coals to Newcastle.'

I have it on good authority that you can purchase the same services over there, with the added bonus of an exotic foreign flavour. It's a bit like going on holiday and taking your own kitchen sink - you know there'll be one there.

[Sgt Pepper]

National MP Hamish Walker has been granted leave from Parliament and is set to collect around $60,000 on the taxpayer.

Outrageous

[moka]

And therein lies the final irony - that if Comrade Cindy had fired him from his ministerial positions, he would still be a MP today and stand in the election.

I actually feel sorry for him and for his wife and daughter. It is a huge huge price he has paid.
News reports say he was in a consensual relationship but I bet it his wife didn’t consent to him cheating on her. So I do not agree that “as long as it’s legal, it’s none of our business what MPs get up to in their private time.” It is a massive breach of trust with his wife and family and his affair would have involved lots of dishonesty and lies. That is not the sort of person I want as a politician.

Former National Party MP Chester Borrows said Lees-Galloway had to go, as voters do not trust someone who has been shown to be deceitful.
"And actually, interoffice relationships, power inequities in relationships has been in the news for the last few years. Think of the law firms, the Defence Force, those sorts of things," he said.
"It is a question of integrity for a minister and the public will be thinking, 'well if he's prepared to lie to his wife, he will lie to us'. So it is about the integrity of the Cabinet.
"It is an affair that's going on alongside being in a married relationship. People will say that's a moral question, but when it comes to whether you can trust what people say or what they do, it's inconsistent with somebody who is supposed to be able to be held to account and [tell] the truth to the public."

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-deceit-integrity-problem-at-core-of-mps-affairs-chester-borrows.html

[BlackPeter]

News reports say he was in a consensual relationship but I bet it his wife didn’t consent to him cheating on her. So I do not agree that “as long as it’s legal, it’s none of our business what MPs get up to in their private time.” It is a massive breach of trust with his wife and family and his affair would have involved lots of dishonesty and lies. That is not the sort of person I want as a politician.

Former National Party MP Chester Borrows said Lees-Galloway had to go, as voters do not trust someone who has been shown to be deceitful.
"And actually, interoffice relationships, power inequities in relationships has been in the news for the last few years. Think of the law firms, the Defence Force, those sorts of things," he said.
"It is a question of integrity for a minister and the public will be thinking, 'well if he's prepared to lie to his wife, he will lie to us'. So it is about the integrity of the Cabinet.
"It is an affair that's going on alongside being in a married relationship. People will say that's a moral question, but when it comes to whether you can trust what people say or what they do, it's inconsistent with somebody who is supposed to be able to be held to account and [tell] the truth to the public."

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-deceit-integrity-problem-at-core-of-mps-affairs-chester-borrows.html

Quite right. This is about lack of integrity of a senior politician. Once a liar, always a liar. As well - no matter whether the female involved wanted to have an affair with her married boss or not - given the power imbalance between them will we never know whether the concern about keeping her job or otherwise not advancing in her career was part of the implied deal. Absolutely unacceptable in this day and age.

Apart from that - Lees-Galloway was anyway the ugly face of the current government. His arrogance and lack of empathy when commenting about the suffering of innocent people who his government locked out of their home country during the current crisis without any notice is second to none "we all had to make sacrifices". His sacrifice was probably not to be able to start another affair, while the people he commented about had to deal with being de-rooted from their job and life and families in NZ and he didn't care. We clearly don't need arrogant liars and hypocrites in our government. Good riddance.

[tim23]

You might need another leader...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351077

[Balance]

You might need another leader...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351077


Good! Sets the scene for a rebound next poll.

Obviously a rogue poll but it still confirms that NZF & Winston are gone burgers. 😁

[Joshuatree]

Rogue poll?I dont think so,rogue leader witth a dirty history ,yes..Some supporters here need to readjust their own moral compass.Greatto see most kiwis dont need to!

[Blue Skies]

25% wow, that's shocking, another 23 MP's gone if this was the election.
The knives will be out this week, the reason for the Caucus's known apprehension & reluctance to hand Judith the reins has materialised.
There was little unity before, but after this!
Don't think the excuse it was a rogue poll will give MP's much confidence, as Tova OBrien says, in reality it continues the existing trend borne out in other polls.
Todd lasted 53 days, there's 55 days to the election, you have to wonder if his record is at risk of being broken.

[Balance]

25% wow, that's shocking, another 23 MP's gone if this was the election.
The knives will be out this week, the reason for the Caucus's known apprehension & reluctance to hand Judith the reins has materialised.
There was little unity before, but after this!
Don't think the excuse it was a rogue poll will give MP's much confidence, as Tova OBrien says, in reality it continues the existing trend borne out in other polls.
Todd lasted 53 days, there's 55 days to the election, you have to wonder if his record is at risk of being broken.

yawn - what a load of garbage.

[Blue Skies]

yawn - what a load of garbage.


Many National supporters will understandably be extremely disappointed with this result but the first 4 lines are not opinions, they're facts, unless you really believe it was a rogue poll.
You might be right but just pointing out Tova did said it was continuing the trend.
What do you think John Key & Bill English, & Judith Collins & those MP's will be thinking, I can guarantee they won't be yawning.
Judith was put in to save the furniture & tomorrow there's going to be panic & recriminations, its not going to be a happy harmonious caucus.
Time to face reality, this is a shocking poll less than 2 months out from the election.
Whether Judith lasts till the election is speculation, but polling indicates rolling Bridges was a mistake.
I don't know what's next but National can't ignore the prospect of losing 23 MP's.
What would you suggest, or would you stick with the status quo?

[GTM 3442]

With the notable exception of Ms Ardern, changing party leaders in an election year has consistently been a recipe for disaster in New Zealand politics.

Personally, I'm inclined to think that the National Party sees a future for Mister Bridges, and as a loyal party member, Ms Collins was kind enough to step up and "take one for the team" thereby saving Mister Bridges from the future stigma of losing an election.

[tim23]

Rogue poll?I dont think so,rogue leader witth a dirty history ,yes..Some supporters here need to readjust their own moral compass.Greatto see most kiwis dont need to!

And theres more - fewer people trust Collins than they do our PM.

[ynot]

And theres more - fewer people trust Collins than they do our PM.
If that is the case it does not reflect well on the state of the nation.

[tim23]

If that is the case it does not reflect well on the state of the nation.

Why would that be?

[ynot]

Why would that be?

Another term of this govt and the answer will be blaintently obvious.

[Bjauck]

Nat leadership is jumping the shark one more time?
Don't listen to what Crusher Collins says: Only look at her Eyebrows to gauge if she's telling a porkie!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300067642/election-2020-judith-collins-says-she-was-joking-when-falsely-saying-no-one-escaped-while-she-was-corrections-minister

[Joshuatree]

Her eyebrows last seen flying with the seagulls.:t_up:
Trump said the same thing(I was joking:)when fact checkers caught him out.

[Bjauck]

Her eyebrows last seen flying with the seagulls.:t_up:
Trump said the same thing(I was joking:)when fact checkers caught him out.
It does appear she is more Trump than Thatcher.

[tim23]

Another term of this govt and the answer will be blaintently obvious.

So you have one of those National Party crystal balls?

[ynot]

So you have one of those National Party crystal balls?

Half a brain will suffice.

[moka]

And theres more - fewer people trust Collins than they do our PM.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122275338/rogue-poll-or-not-all-the-signs-point-to-a-tectonic-shift-in-new-zealand-politics
Rogue poll or not, all the signs point to a tectonic shift in New Zealand politics.
For a start, the political centre appears to be shifting to the left. Across the past four polls, support for Labour and the Greens sits around 62 per cent. When nearly two out of three voters in a naturally conservative nation support the centre-left, something is going on.

Correspondingly, as the notional median voter shifts left, parties on the right are being left high and dry. The Reid Research poll put the combined support for National, ACT and New Zealand First at 30.4 per cent, a touch under half the level of support for the centre-left.

The polling suggests that Collins’s penchant for attack politics is not resonating with voters. She has not been helped by the recent antics of (now departed or demoted) caucus colleagues Hamish Walker, Michael Woodhouse and Andrew Falloon, but the buck stops with her.
National’s default claim of being the better economic manager also took a blow in the most recent poll. Asked who they trusted most with the post-Covid economy, 62.3 per cent of respondents preferred a Labour-led government and only 26.5 per cent a National-led one.

[dobby41]

Feel the fear? :t_up:

I do feel the fear of the Nats.
Getting well into the dirty politics now - true to form for Crusher.
She even says that being a lying politician is OK.
I wonder if they can manage another leadership change before the election?

[ynot]

I do feel the fear of the Nats.
Getting well into the dirty politics now - true to form for Crusher.
She even says that being a lying politician is OK.
I wonder if they can manage another leadership change before the election?
Let's face it, they are all liars.

[Balance]

Let's face it, they are all liars.

Comrade Cindy being the biggest hypocrite and consummate cynical liar.

Hijab wearing when she knows damn well that it’s a symbol of oppression in some Islamic states.

Promising CGT pre election and then pulling it when the polls show it as unpopular.

Numerous times contradicting herself about what is said and agreed with coalition partners.

Pretending she did not know of ILG affair and then, destroying him after protecting his incompetence.

The list goes on and on.

[ynot]

Comrade Cindy being the biggest hypocrite and consummate cynical liar.

Hijab wearing when she knows damn well that it’s a symbol of oppression in some Islamic states.

Promising CGT pre election and then pulling it when the polls show it as unpopular.

Numerous times contradicting herself about what is said and agreed with coalition partners.

Pretending she did not know of ILG affair and then, destroying him after protecting his incompetence.

The list goes on and on.

Acting is her true calling. Skills well honed at commy training class.

[Balance]

Acting is her true calling. Skills well honed at commy training class.

Best actress award coming - in the form of the Nobel Peace prize for wearing the hijab.

Then, there’s the granting of asylum to the Iranian refugee in specific contravention of agreement with Australia not to allow backdoor entry into Australia (by granting NZ citizenship to refugees attempting to queue jump) even while she puts on a big show of defending NZers’ rights in Oz and objecting to them deporting NZ criminals back to NZ.

All for show at NZ’s expense to win her future coveted UN job.

[dobby41]

Acting is her true calling. Skills well honed at commy training class.

Really? Pull the commie card? You are 60 years late really.
But, never mind - National haven't a hope with liar Crusher in charge.
Very few trust her.

[ynot]

Really? Pull the commie card? You are 60 years late really.
But, never mind - National haven't a hope with liar Crusher in charge.
Very few trust her.
You don't think socialist govt is a problem, then sit back and watch the life get sucked out of our fragile economy.

[fungus pudding]

You don't think socialist govt is a problem, then sit back and watch the life get sucked out of our fragile economy.

That doesn't worry a true socialist - as long as we are all equally miserable, they're happy.

[dobby41]

You don't think socialist govt is a problem, then sit back and watch the life get sucked out of our fragile economy.

Socialist or communist? Maybe you don't understand the difference?
It has been said for a long time that Labour destroy the economy but the facts show otherwise.
I doubt you will see your delusion.

[Joshuatree]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122275338/rogue-poll-or-not-all-the-signs-point-to-a-tectonic-shift-in-new-zealand-politics

"National’s default claim of being the better economic manager also took a blow in the most recent poll. Asked who they trusted most with the post-Covid economy, 62.3 per cent of respondents preferred a Labour-led government and only 26.5 per cent a National-led one."

Deeper and deeper, Dumber and dumber.National desperate choosing Muldoon/Collins.
At least Nikki Kaye has seen a better future for herself elsewhere.

[ynot]

Socialist or communist? Maybe you don't understand the difference?
It has been said for a long time that Labour destroy the economy but the facts show otherwise.
I doubt you will see your delusion.

They are both tarred with the same brush. Expect nanny state to wipe their a..
Who's going to pay for it.

[Blue Skies]

Allowing people to withdraw $20,000 from their Kiwisaver accounts to start a small business (plus a $1000 voucher to see an accountant). What an absolutely daft amateurish poorly thought out policy.
Prime example, remember back when all those Telecom employees ( & others) who lost their jobs, used their redundancy payouts to start a small business, & how most of them fell over within the first 24 months, losing all their money.
So depressing & predictable.
Just result in more people unable to support themselves & dependent on the state.
Kiwisaver needs to be untouchable (with only exception with conditions to help buy a home to live in) & last thing we need is a Nat govt fiddling with it

[blackcap]

Allowing people to withdraw $20,000 from their Kiwisaver accounts to start a small business (plus a $1000 voucher to see an accountant). What an absolutely daft amateurish poorly thought out policy.
Prime example, remember back when all those Telecom employees ( & others) who lost their jobs, used their redundancy payouts to start a small business, & how most of them fell over within the first 24 months, losing all their money.
So depressing & predictable.
Just result in more people unable to support themselves & dependent on the state.
Kiwisaver needs to be untouchable (with only exception with conditions to help buy a home to live in) & last thing we need is a Nat govt fiddling with it

Totally agree with this. You should never be able to touch your Kiwisaver before 65 (or whatever the age is at the time). It is there for retirement, nothing else. I would go as far that if you use it to purchase your first home (good), if you subsequently sell that home and not purchase another, then you should re pay that to Kiwisaver.

[fungus pudding]

Totally agree with this. You should never be able to touch your Kiwisaver before 65 (or whatever the age is at the time). It is there for retirement, nothing else. I would go as far that if you use it to purchase your first home (good), if you subsequently sell that home and not purchase another, then you should re pay that to Kiwisaver.

Then why not just use the existing PAYE system and step up the current universal super scheme?

[blackcap]

Then why not just use the existing PAYE system and step up the current universal super scheme?

That would be the preferred option. But we have Kiwisaver so with that in mind, I think the Kiwisaver rules should stay if not be strengthened.

[justakiwi]

This is a very poorly thought out plan. Now is not the time for people with no business experience or knowledge to be setting up businesses. They will use their KiwiSaver to set up small businesses such as window washing, coffee carts, lawn mowing and will not be able to compete with existing businesses. They will crash and burn and will then have no KiwiSaver for their future retirement.

Just a typical National election "carrot" with no thought for the consequences.


Allowing people to withdraw $20,000 from their Kiwisaver accounts to start a small business (plus a $1000 voucher to see an accountant). What an absolutely daft amateurish poorly thought out policy.
Prime example, remember back when all those Telecom employees ( & others) who lost their jobs, used their redundancy payouts to start a small business, & how most of them fell over within the first 24 months, losing all their money.
So depressing & predictable.
Just result in more people unable to support themselves & dependent on the state.
Kiwisaver needs to be untouchable (with only exception with conditions to help buy a home to live in) & last thing we need is a Nat govt fiddling with it

[Bjauck]

...
Kiwisaver needs to be untouchable (with only exception with conditions to help buy a home to live in) & last thing we need is a Nat govt fiddling with it
There should be two schemes if you want to be able to use one as a house deposit savings scheme - a savings scheme and a pension scheme. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of saving for retirement. Also, If you can dip into it in order to buy housing, why not use it to buy other investments or a business. In this day and age, Why favour housing over other forms of investment? After all at least other investments can provide taxable income unlike the investment in owner-occupied housing..

And how about some decent policies to provide sufficient affordable housing for NZ’s growing population. Then there would be less need to raid any pension scheme to be able to afford a first home.

[dobby41]

There should be two schemes if you want to be able to use one as a house deposit savings scheme - a savings scheme and a pension scheme.

There is a Kiwisaver scheme which is supported via Govt and employer.
There is nothing stopping a person setting up their own saving scheme using direct credits and 'kiwisaver like' managed funds.

[iceman]

There should be two schemes if you want to be able to use one as a house deposit savings scheme - a savings scheme and a pension scheme. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of saving for retirement. Also, If you can dip into it in order to buy housing, why not use it to buy other investments or a business. In this day and age, Why favour housing over other forms of investment? After all at least other investments can provide taxable income unlike the investment in owner-occupied housing..

And how about some decent policies to provide sufficient affordable housing for NZ’s growing population. Then there would be less need to raid any pension scheme to be able to afford a first home.

Totally agree with this. Personally I don't thing Kiwisaver should be touchable at all prior to 65. But I see no difference why you should allow first home buyers but not people wanting to start a business. Neither should be allowed in my view.

[Zaphod]

I did find it ironic that Labour implemented the changes to KS allowing for a deposit on a home, while at the same time attempting to stifle runaway housing prices. Perhaps they didn't understand the cause and effect.

[Bjauck]

There is a Kiwisaver scheme which is supported via Govt and employer.
There is nothing stopping a person setting up their own saving scheme using direct credits and 'kiwisaver like' managed funds.
So why not have a KiwiSaver and A KiwiSuper. Introduce another formally regulated scheme which is not a pension age specific savings scheme? Perhaps introduce a rebate for any contributions made out of taxed income up to an annual maximum amount? Divert more money away from investment in investor residential real estate?

[dobby41]

So why not have a KiwiSaver and A KiwiSuper. Introduce another formally regulated scheme which is not a pension age specific savings scheme? Perhaps introduce a rebate for any contributions made out of taxed income up to an annual maximum amount? Divert more money away from investment in investor residential real estate?

Why not? Why? There are already lots of 'kiwisaver' like products people can use. Why add more complexity?

[Blue Skies]

Geez if you want to see Judith Collins & her arguments for the KiwiSaver business policy being completely eviscerated by Jacinda Adern in Parliament today, watch, Question 1, Hon Judith Collin to the PM, Oral Questions in Parliament.

Judith no match for the PM with Adern's detailed grasp of policy.
Judith Collins will need to do much better than this as leader.

Apart from that, there are already existing forms of govt support packages for starting up a business (which I didn't realise) which mean people don't have to gamble with their retirement savings.

[dobby41]

Geez if you want to see Judith Collins & her arguments for the KiwiSaver business policy being completely eviscerated by Jacinda Adern in Parliament today, watch, Question 1, Hon Judith Collin to the PM, Oral Questions in Parliament.

Judith no match for the PM with Adern's detailed grasp of policy.
Judith Collins will need to do much better than this as leader.

Apart from that, there are already existing forms of govt support packages for starting up a business (which I didn't realise) which mean people don't have to gamble with their retirement savings.

https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=214894

[justakiwi]

Jacinda absolutely annihilated Collins. They are poles apart in their knowledge and understanding of policy. Collins is well and truly out of her depth.


Geez if you want to see Judith Collins & her arguments for the KiwiSaver business policy being completely eviscerated by Jacinda Adern in Parliament today, watch, Question 1, Hon Judith Collin to the PM, Oral Questions in Parliament.

Judith no match for the PM with Adern's detailed grasp of policy.
Judith Collins will need to do much better than this as leader.

Apart from that, there are already existing forms of govt support packages for starting up a business (which I didn't realise) which mean people don't have to gamble with their retirement savings.

[Balance]

Jacinda absolutely annihilated Collins. They are poles apart in their knowledge and understanding of policy. Collins is well and truly out of her depth.

This is the same Cindy who promised 16,000 Kiwibuild houses but delivered less than 400?

If you want definition of 'out of her depth', then you have just read it.

[artemis]

... there are already existing forms of govt support packages for starting up a business (which I didn't realise) which mean people don't have to gamble with their retirement savings.

Not nearly as simple to access as one's own money. Possibly the covid money is easier than the WINZ money though, I haven't checked.

[artemis]

Jacinda absolutely annihilated Collins. They are poles apart in their knowledge and understanding of policy. Collins is well and truly out of her depth.

Not really justakiwi. It was a series of one liners that sounded like roll up one and all and collect your free money to start a business. I have some knowledge of the main WINZ business startup scheme, there are lots of rules and hoops and targeted at beneficiaries. No help to the airline attendant stacking shelves to keep going meantime.

[justakiwi]

I was referring to the way the two of them presented themselves more than the content of the exchange. Collin’s questions were not well constructed and were mostly “closed-ended” questions that could have been answered with a “yes” or “no” had Jacinda chosen to do that. Jacinda is by far, the better speaker. She always comes prepared, she does her homework and has a good recall of the details of policies. She is able to think on her feet and she very rarely hesitates or stumbles over her answers to questions. Collins just doesn’t have that.


Not really justakiwi. It was a series of one liners that sounded like roll up one and all and collect your free money to start a business. I have some knowledge of the main WINZ business startup scheme, there are lots of rules and hoops and targeted at beneficiaries. No help to the airline attendant stacking shelves to keep going meantime.

[Balance]

I was referring to the way the two of them presented themselves more than the content of the exchange. Collin’s questions were not well constructed and were mostly “closed-ended” questions that could have been answered with a “yes” or “no” had Jacinda chosen to do that. Jacinda is by far, the better speaker. She always comes prepared, she does her homework and has a good recall of the details of policies. She is able to think on her feet and she very rarely hesitates or stumbles over her answers to questions. Collins just doesn’t have that.

Same Cindy who bluffs her way through under-delivering on all economic promises made last election. Kiwibuild, anyone?

Looks like we have plenty of woke pixie dusted posters here who prefer style over substance.

[Panda-NZ-]

This is the same Cindy who promised 16,000 Kiwibuild houses but delivered less than 400?

They must have delivered quite a bit if that's the only thing you can bring up to complain about. Plus a house cannot be built within one term of government so 400 within two years is quite good and maybe more to come (def. more compared to Nats).

[moka]

There should be two schemes if you want to be able to use one as a house deposit savings scheme - a savings scheme and a pension scheme. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of saving for retirement. Also, If you can dip into it in order to buy housing, why not use it to buy other investments or a business. In this day and age, Why favour housing over other forms of investment? After all at least other investments can provide taxable income unlike the investment in owner-occupied housing..

And how about some decent policies to provide sufficient affordable housing for NZ’s growing population. Then there would be less need to raid any pension scheme to be able to afford a first home.
Why favour housing over other forms of investment?

Because housing is a basic need, not just an investment. Owning your own home has many benefits to the owner and to society in general, it provides more stability and security than renting, it fosters a sense of pride and a desire to be “houseproud” and to maintain and improve your property, when you retire you don’t need accommodation supplement = more government financial assistance. It encourages more independence which surely for all those people who complain about welfare dependency is a desirable outcome.

[RupertBear]

Same Cindy who bluffs her way through under-delivering on all economic promises made last election. Kiwibuild, anyone?

Looks like we have plenty of woke pixie dusted posters here who prefer style over substance.

Hmm oh my gosh gee whiz where have I heard this before? Oh thats right its Balance and his broken record going round and round and round :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[RupertBear]

I was referring to the way the two of them presented themselves more than the content of the exchange. Collin’s questions were not well constructed and were mostly “closed-ended” questions that could have been answered with a “yes” or “no” had Jacinda chosen to do that. Jacinda is by far, the better speaker. She always comes prepared, she does her homework and has a good recall of the details of policies. She is able to think on her feet and she very rarely hesitates or stumbles over her answers to questions. Collins just doesn’t have that.

Well said Justakiwi, I agree :)

[moka]

If National wants to encourage people to set up a new business a better way to do it would be Universal Basic Income which unlike the Jobseeker benefit is not conditional upon you seeking paid employment. Knowing you had a steady reliable income while you start up your business would encourage people to be entrepreneurial. This has been proven overseas where trials of UBI have been held.

Some or all of the $20,000 from Kiwisaver retirement money would probably be used for living expenses until your business was profitable, and not just as capital. If you set up a business like home handyman, lawnmowing or cleaning your capital costs probably would be minimal.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122279425/national-promises-the-unemployed-access-to-kiwisaver-funds-to-start-businesses
The policy would allow any worker who loses or lost their job after March 1 to receive a $1000 voucher for financial advice from the Government, access to $20,000 of their KiwiSaver retirement funds, another $10,000 in GST or provisional tax credits, and the waiver of the $130 Company Office registration fee.
One of the hardest things for starting up a new business is getting your hands on some capital, we figure it’s their money, why shouldn’t they be allowed to use it,” Collins, told Stuff in an interview on Wednesday morning.

[moka]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/small-business/122279325/national-forecasts-funding-startups-with-kiwisaver-drawdowns-and-tax-credits-would-cost-97m
Collins said KiwiSaver was money that people had “put aside for a rainy day” and they should have a choice whether they invested it with fund managers or in their own business.

I joined Kiwisaver to save for my retirement not to save for a rainy day. I had rainy day savings as well. One of the main attractions was that I could not withdraw the money until I retired. It removed the temptation to say I’ve got $50K saved so I can buy a new car or have a trip overseas. I needed that restriction.

[Blue Skies]

Why favour housing over other forms of investment?

Because housing is a basic need, not just an investment. Owning your own home has many benefits to the owner and to society in general, it provides more stability and security than renting, it fosters a sense of pride and a desire to be “houseproud” and to maintain and improve your property, when you retire you don’t need accommodation supplement = more government financial assistance. It encourages more independence which surely for all those people who complain about welfare dependency is a desirable outcome.



Well said, owning your own home has so many benefits to both individuals & communities or neighbourhoods.

And to this I would add from an economic perspective, owning your own home is a proven very safe investment, however, when you consider 66% of start up businesses fail within 24 months (in good times let alone now), a policy allowing newly unemployed people to gamble their Retirement security/savings on starting up a new business in the current environment is plain foolish.

[Blue Skies]

Another poll out tonight, One News Colmar Brunton on TVNZ 6pm.

Their last poll released 25 June when Todd Muller had recently taken over from Simon Bridges had National lift 9% to 38%, & Labour down 9% to 50%.

Collins & Brownlee saying their latest internal polling showing Nat's in mid 40's (& of course dismissing the latest Reid poll )

Will be interesting.

[Balance]

Another poll out tonight, One News Colmar Brunton on TVNZ 6pm.

Their last poll released 25 June when Todd Muller had recently taken over from Simon Bridges had National lift 9% to 38%, & Labour down 9% to 50%.

Collins & Brownlee saying their latest internal polling showing Nat's in mid 40's (& of course dismissing the latest Reid poll )

Will be interesting.

Get your facts right before you post. We are not all woke pixie dusted like you & incapable of reading the news reports out there.

Kiwibuild, anyone?

[Blue Skies]

Get your facts right before you post. We are not all woke pixie dusted like you & incapable of reading the news reports out there.

Kiwibuild, anyone?


Apologies Balance, I meant to say Collins saying their Internal polling had Labour near mid 40s instead of National, and National at 37%. (& dismissing the Reid Poll) .

Have a nice day.

[BlackPeter]

Get your facts right before you post. We are not all woke pixie dusted like you & incapable of reading the news reports out there.

Kiwibuild, anyone?

Sigh ... this is a nasty thread - or is this just a broken record?

[Balance]

Apologies Balance, I meant to say Collins saying their Internal polling had Labour near mid 40s instead of National, and National at 37%. (& dismissing the Reid Poll) .

Have a nice day.

Wrong again. Try harder - take off the woke pixie dust from your eyes first.

[Blue Skies]

Haha, bizarre Pixie dust claims from National's Housing spokesperson.
It's her focus, her job to be informed for goodness sake. Gee what a competent bunch they are!


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/national-housing-spokesperson-jacqui-dean-falsely-claims-they-built-30-000-state-homes-when-last-in-power.html

[dobby41]

Sigh ... this is a nasty thread - or is this just a broken record?

It's a broken record but when someone (balance) doesn't have a rational argument he tends to repeat. De ja vu all over again.

[Bjauck]

Why favour housing over other forms of investment?

Because housing is a basic need, not just an investment. Owning your own home has many benefits to the owner and to society in general, it provides more stability and security than renting, it fosters a sense of pride and a desire to be “houseproud” and to maintain and improve your property, when you retire you don’t need accommodation supplement = more government financial assistance. It encourages more independence which surely for all those people who complain about welfare dependency is a desirable outcome. Secure warm and dry shelter is the basic need. Owner occupation is one way this can be delivered. Just as renting and leasing could be too. NZ owner occupation rates have been falling. Raiding the pension fund will not replace introducing the reforms needed to provide affordable owner occupation for those for whom that is the best way to secure good shelter..

We are no longer the 1960's. So for those people who do not have job security in the gig economy or for those who need to travel for work or change jobs and locations frequently for career progression, home ownership may not be possible or suitable or desirable. If you can withdraw money to get a house deposit, why shouldn't they be able to withdraw their kiwisaver money early to get money for a tenancy bond, to buy investments or a business just as those who want to buy a home can?

People also age at different rates. For example for those who have had tough manual jobs, their bodies may have worn out earlier than white-collar professional bodies. So why shouldn't they be able to draw on any kiwisaver balance earlier?

[dobby41]

Haha, bizarre Pixie dust claims from National's Housing spokesperson.
It's her focus, her job to be informed for goodness sake. Gee what a competent bunch they are!


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/national-housing-spokesperson-jacqui-dean-falsely-claims-they-built-30-000-state-homes-when-last-in-power.html

Clutching at straws - they have already admitted that they sold too many.
They know they have lost already.

[Balance]

It's a broken record but when someone (balance) doesn't have a rational argument he tends to repeat. De ja vu all over again.

Blue Skies has corrected his error as you can read - you need to dust the woke pixie bull dust from Comrade Cindy off your eyes, I think?

[Balance]

Haha, bizarre Pixie dust claims from National's Housing spokesperson.
It's her focus, her job to be informed for goodness sake. Gee what a competent bunch they are!


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/national-housing-spokesperson-jacqui-dean-falsely-claims-they-built-30-000-state-homes-when-last-in-power.html

Simple mathematics which the woke pixie dusted ones cannot comprehend :

Opening stock + new stock - sold stock - transfer stock* = closing stock.

* eg. - Housing NZ transferred 2,300 state houses for example to Tamaki Regeneration which are not counted anymore in state houses.

[Blue Skies]

Wrong again. Try harder - take off the woke pixie dust from your eyes first.


FYI, it's on record, when referring to National's Internal Polling which she said is taken every week, Judith Collins replied on AM Show when told MP's had leaked figures of 36% & 37%, sometimes its (National) closer to 40%.

The figures obviously move around a bit from week to week.

It's an observation for goodness sake, is the combative language really necessary?

[dobby41]

It's an observation for goodness sake, is the combative language really necessary?

Combative language is typical of bullies. Trump uses it all the time. It is generally used to deflect from the lack of actual message.
Same as the repitition - working on the basis that if you say it often enough it will become a truth and stick. Trump uses that all the time also.

[Balance]

Combative language is typical of bullies. Trump uses it all the time. It is generally used to deflect from the lack of actual message.
Same as the repitition - working on the basis that if you say it often enough it will become a truth and stick. Trump uses that all the time also.

Promising 16,000 houses under Kiwibuild and delivering less than 400 is a fact, right?

[dobby41]

Promising 16,000 houses under Kiwibuild and delivering less than 400 is a fact, right?

Not sure about the numbers - did they manage to do 400?
The point is you harp on about it hoping someone will care.
Calm down, you will do yourself an injury (RSI at the very least).

[Balance]

Not sure about the numbers - did they manage to do 400?
The point is you harp on about it hoping someone will care.
Calm down, you will do yourself an injury (RSI at the very least).

No sweat, dobby41.

First home buyers out there care - maybe you don't because of the woke pixie dust in your eyes but don't assume nobody else does.

[dobby41]

No sweat, dobby41.

First home buyers out there care - maybe you don't because of the woke pixie dust in your eyes but don't assume nobody else does.

Actually they don't care about Kiwibuild - they just want a house.
There are other, better ways (IMO) to do that.
Kiwibuild was never going to succeed as there were never enough builders etc to make them (I can see that through the 'woke pixie dust' because I don't have a soap box to stand on).
Maybe if you stopped the Trump like name calling you'd be seen to have more credibility.

[justakiwi]

:t_up: ..............


Actually they don't care about Kiwibuild - they just want a house.
There are other, better ways (IMO) to do that.
Kiwibuild was never going to succeed as there were never enough builders etc to make them (I can see that through the 'woke pixie dust' because I don't have a soap box to stand on).
Maybe if you stopped the Trump like name calling you'd be seen to have more credibility.

[artemis]

Actually they don't care about Kiwibuild - they just want a house.
There are other, better ways (IMO) to do that.
Kiwibuild was never going to succeed as there were never enough builders etc to make them (I can see that through the 'woke pixie dust' because I don't have a soap box to stand on).
Maybe if you stopped the Trump like name calling you'd be seen to have more credibility.

Probably correct that there were not enough tradies. However, have to wonder about the depth of planning done since Kiwibuild was introduced as flagship Labour policy in 2012. (Not wondering really, it is obvious.) That was the real failure.

In other news, there are hundreds of completed Kiwibuild homes waiting for buyers, and over a thou under construction. Small problem - they are quite clearly not what buyers want. They did sell 14 in June though. So much for the extensive consultation Labour did with experts on demand. Maybe those experts had skin in the game. (Labour said they consulted with experts.)

Last year I read that the Kiwibuild Unit had over 30 FTE staff, some on big bucks, and this did not include consultants and contractors. Think that was in one of the many Kiwibuild written Parliamentary questions. Not just a fail, an epic fail!

PS 'woke pixie dust' sounds like an understatement.

[dobby41]

Probably correct that there were not enough tradies. However, have to wonder about the depth of planning done since Kiwibuild was introduced as flagship Labour policy in 2012. (Not wondering really, it is obvious.) That was the real failure.

In other news, there are hundreds of completed Kiwibuild homes waiting for buyers, and over a thou under construction. Small problem - they are quite clearly not what buyers want. They did sell 14 in June though. So much for the extensive consultation Labour did with experts on demand. Maybe those experts had skin in the game. (Labour said they consulted with experts.)

Last year I read that the Kiwibuild Unit had over 30 FTE staff, some on big bucks, and this did not include consultants and contractors. Think that was in one of the many Kiwibuild written Parliamentary questions. Not just a fail, an epic fail!

PS 'woke pixie dust' sounds like an understatement.

Absolutely agree that they should have known - it was quite obvious to anyone who had even a passing association to house building.
PS - I don't even know what 'woke pixie dust' means but it is a nice sound bite like Trumps many names he likes to call people when he is short on anything with substance.

[BlackPeter]

Promising 16,000 houses under Kiwibuild and delivering less than 400 is a fact, right?

/start of rant/

Balance,

I think everybody got this fact by now. Labor made one promise re housing and didn't manage to deliver. Terrible - but so did other parties. Again and again and again. Still - some will see that as showstoppers (and most of them had Labor anyway on their never vote for list) and some will see it as one fact next to many others ... and they might even be able to step back and see both achievements and failures of all parties in a bit more balanced way than you seem to do.

I guess I get it that there are some narrow minded people who don't seem to be able to overlook the speck in some others parties eye. Sad, but this is how humans are. However - it is not a trait anybody needs to be proud of. Are you one of these people?

I don't know which (if any) party you are supporting, but would you think it is possible you could at some stage contribute something positive to this thread instead of continuously regurgitating a small number of failures of this one party? I am sure they did something right as well ... but if not, then I am sure the recent polls are all wrong and the elections will fix it. Change the record, pal ...

Ah yes - and what about the other side? Most of the problems we have these days (like housing crisis, climate crisis, strained health system, under delivering education system) have actually been created and widely ignored over decades by both Labour as well as National governments. For heavens sake ... open the other eye!

Look - I am not even sure what you exactly want to achieve with this broken record strategy? In a nutshell there are basically three types of voter groups:

One of them always votes for the right without using their brain. It is genetically ingrained - close minded people. Are you playing to them as Trump plays to his base? It is just - there is no need to convince them anymore, they are going for National / ACT / or some of the nutcases (like new conservatives, advance new Zealand, ... ) anyway.

Obviously - there is a similar closed minded group of people always voting left. You might annoy some of them, but you certainly won't change any of their voting behavior by playing your broken record ...

... and then there is the third group. It is people with an open mind, and they look prior to the elections which parties and policies might be best for the future of the country. They vote sometimes right, sometimes left, sometimes green and sometimes liberal. Describes my voting behavior (though admittedly I never voted plain left :)) and I hope that of many others in this forum as well.

I doubt your broken record strategy will convince anybody of them. Good decisions need more than just one out of context and ad nausea repeated data point trying to occupy all available bandwidth. Come on, balance - I am sure you could contribute in a more constructive way to this discussion, couldn't you?

/end of rant/

[fungus pudding]

Absolutely agree that they should have known - it was quite obvious to anyone who had even a passing association to house building.
PS - I don't even know what 'woke pixie dust' means but it is a nice sound bite like Trumps many names he likes to call people when he is short on anything with substance.


....which is always.

[Blue Skies]

Simple mathematics which the woke pixie dusted ones cannot comprehend :

Opening stock + new stock - sold stock - transfer stock* = closing stock.

* eg. - Housing NZ transferred 2,300 state houses for example to Tamaki Regeneration which are not counted anymore in state houses.




'The woke pixie dusted ones cannot comprehend.'
Simple mathematics!
Oh No, its so messy when you end up with egg all over your face.

National just apologised for their false housing claims.






https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-says-it-would-be-fantastic-if-national-s-false-housing-claims-were-true.html

[dobby41]

National just apologised for their false housing claims.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-says-it-would-be-fantastic-if-national-s-false-housing-claims-were-true.html

Their housing spokesperson must have been taking lessons from Twyford. She has no idea what she is talking about.
Just another part of Nationals methods - truth takes a back seat with National. After all Crusher is the master of dirty politics.

[dobby41]

Simple mathematics which the woke pixie dusted ones cannot comprehend :

Opening stock + new stock - sold stock - transfer stock* = closing stock.

* eg. - Housing NZ transferred 2,300 state houses for example to Tamaki Regeneration which are not counted anymore in state houses.

Statistics released by the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development show Kāinga Ora (formerly Housing New Zealand) built 2670 new homes during National's last reign, and community housing providers built 95. The most productive year was 2015/16, when 724 were constructed.

But they sold more, the data shows - 2728. Overall, the number of state houses fell during National's nine years in power - something previous housing spokesperson Nicola Willis said was a mistake.

The same document says since the Labour-led Government took the reins in 2017, 3064 have been built by Kāinga Ora and 507 by community housing providers. Stuff reported earlier this month they've sold 146.

So Labour did more in 3 years than National did in 9 years for housing stock.

[Balance]

Their housing spokesperson must have been taking lessons from Twyford. She has no idea what she is talking about.
Just another part of Nationals methods - truth takes a back seat with National. After all Crusher is the master of dirty politics.

OMG - you mean like with Comrade Cindy's promise of 16,000 Kiwibuild homes? :t_up:

And let's not forget that house prices were going to come down and be brought under control under Labour

but

the latest is that house prices are sky-rocketing out there.

Let's do this!

[Joshuatree]

Statistics released by the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development show Kāinga Ora (formerly Housing New Zealand) built 2670 new homes during National's last reign, and community housing providers built 95. The most productive year was 2015/16, when 724 were constructed.

But they sold more, the data shows - 2728. Overall, the number of state houses fell during National's nine years in power - something previous housing spokesperson Nicola Willis said was a mistake.

The same document says since the Labour-led Government took the reins in 2017, 3064 have been built by Kāinga Ora and 507 by community housing providers. Stuff reported earlier this month they've sold 146.

So Labour did more in 3 years than National did in 9 years for housing stock.

Thanks for taking the time to dig those facts up.

[dobby41]

OMG - you mean like with Comrade Cindy's promise of 16,000 Kiwibuild homes?

Yes - so if you think Twyford is an idiot you can't be pleased with Jacqui Dean :t_down:

[Balance]

Yes - so if you think Twyford is an idiot you can't be pleased with Jacqui Dean :t_down:

One promised, was given the job and responsibility and failed miserably - so badly that he was removed from the position. And he ended up costing taxpayers tens of millions of dollars after bailing out developers who are still laughing like well fed hyenas. :D

The other got the numbers wrong and apologized.

Which one caused the greater harm to the dreams and aspirations of home seekers?

[dobby41]

Which one caused the greater harm to the dreams and aspirations of home seekers?

Neither.
Get over your obsession.
You're going to do it hard when Labour get back in - National hasn't got a hope.
Everyone can see what sort of a person Judith is and they don't like it.

[Balance]

Neither.
Get over your obsession.
You're going to do it hard when Labour get back in - National hasn't got a hope.
Everyone can see what sort of a person Judith is and they don't like it.

Neither? The tens of millions of dollars Twyford lost on bad kiwi build contracts would have joined many a needy family.

No problem with Labour getting back in - they are such an easy touch to milk contracts and $$$ out of.

Not good for NZ long term but too bad - that's for the beneficiaries bred by Labour to worry about.

[artemis]

.... No problem with Labour getting back in - they are such an easy touch to milk contracts and $$$ out of....

True that. Especially in Wellington where there plenty of well paid public servants in secure jobs. The tradies in my family are ridiculously busy.

[Balance]

True that. Especially in Wellington where there plenty of well paid public servants in secure jobs. The tradies in my family are ridiculously busy.

And every consultant in all shapes and forms are busy as - there’s hundreds of reports & feasibilities to work on.

[tim23]

I suppose the latest poll on 1 News is rogue as well for you Tory lovers?

[boysy]

i guess they can claim the rouge polls are actually 1 in 10 not 1 in 20 so as to explain the latest two polls .......

[tim23]

i guess they can claim the rouge polls are actually 1 in 10 not 1 in 20 so as to explain the latest two polls .......

No doubt they will try and spin it!

[tim23]

No doubt they will try and spin it!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352405

In case you missed the bews!

[tim23]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352405

In case you missed the bews!

Oops news!

[Joshuatree]

mdjvdfkvsdkldjwekl

[iceman]

mdjvdfkvsdkldjwekl

Labour's new economic policy ?

[moka]

We are no longer the 1960's. So for those people who do not have job security in the gig economy or for those who need to travel for work or change jobs and locations frequently for career progression, home ownership may not be possible or suitable or desirable. If you can withdraw money to get a house deposit, why shouldn't they be able to withdraw their kiwisaver money early to get money for a tenancy bond, to buy investments or a business just as those who want to buy a home can?
Kiwisaver was for retirement savings, not rainy day savings. If it becomes rainy day savings employers won’t want to continue contributing to it, nor would the government.
Very unfair to try and change the rules like that to a long term commitment like Kiwisaver, once people have committed to it.

[moka]

Combative language is typical of bullies. Trump uses it all the time. It is generally used to deflect from the lack of actual message.
Same as the repitition - working on the basis that if you say it often enough it will become a truth and stick. Trump uses that all the time also.
What all bullies have in common is the use of power to satisfy one’s own psychological shortcomings. Each time a bully moves against someone weaker, they feel better about themselves for an instant. But because that feeling doesn’t last, they do it again and again. Sometimes the bully appears to lack insight into their own behavior (unwitting bully), but more often the bully does know yet elects to ignore the moral and ethical considerations by which the majority of people are bound. The rules don’t apply to them. Or they have projected so much self-hatred on the other that they truly believe that those they are bullying deserve exactly what they are getting.
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/adult-bullies/

[iceman]

Kiwisaver was for retirement savings, not rainy day savings. If it becomes rainy day savings employers won’t want to continue contributing to it, nor would the government.
Very unfair to try and change the rules like that to a long term commitment like Kiwisaver, once people have committed to it.

"Rainy day" access has been allowed for many years now, under the financial hardship rules or terminal illness rules.

[ynot]

Pulling out any old random new ideas with KiwiSaver just prior to an election is just plain irresponsible.
I agree with some of the suggestions regarding changes but not just prior to an important election. Far too important a subject for quick decision.
But I don't see why we can't change it. Just look at the investment options that are available with Ausi super. Not saying we should copy them, but they offer a far broader spectrum of superannuation diversification than KiwiSaver.
Certainly worth closer scrutiny but to be used as a lolly scramble prior election is wrong.

[BlackPeter]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352405

In case you missed the bews!

Well, there is a clear trend emerging. If National adds every week 7 percent to its numbers, they will have more than 50% in three weeks from now and more than 100% of the votes in only 10 weeks!

When exactly are the elections :p?

[Joshuatree]

Labour's new economic policy ?

:cool: Tried to put up the pic going around , of Collins/piggy Muldoon.

[fungus pudding]

:cool: Tried to put up the pic going around , of Collins/piggy Muldoon.

That would be totally beyond you. Got any great great grand-kids?

[Joshuatree]

End of the line with you fungus;)

[Balance]

Rogue poll?I dont think so,rogue leader witth a dirty history ,yes..Some supporters here need to readjust their own moral compass.Greatto see most kiwis dont need to!

Famous last words from last poll - and the poll was not only rogue but a total insult to all NZers.

[dobby41]

:cool: Tried to put up the pic going around , of Collins/piggy Muldoon.

This one
11826

Or this maybe
11827

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352405

In case you missed the bews!


No need for spin when you have such beliefs as Tim23 :



Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?

That employers who topped up the wage subsidies from their own funds to keep employees on are beneficiaries.

That's how desperate Labour & its loser-minded supporters are to breed beneficiaries.

[tim23]

Famous last words from last poll - and the poll was not only rogue but a total insult to all NZers.

Now that comment is even weirder than some of your other weird posts - an insult to all NZers?? - how many whiskeys had you consumed when you posted that?