National - FFS! [Archive] - Page 6

Balance

29-08-2020, 11:16 AM

Help us out here and tell us.

Look at how the '4 legs good, 2 legs better' brigade is avoiding the other thread Labour/NZ First Government like the plague to avoid the awkward questions posed by jonu?

What are your thoughts on the past week for Ardern's government dobby41?

Are you comfortable with the spending on the Green school?

Has Ardern been telling fibs about the day 3 tests?

Why didn't she extend the wage subsidy for the extra lockdown period as earlier promised? (If it is too hard why did she promise it?)

What are your thoughts on the mysterious silence on Ihumatao?

Bjauck

29-08-2020, 11:34 AM

According to their fact sheet: "We will repeal the changes made by Labour to the Employment
Relations Act " and $20000 can be used from your Kiwi Saver to start a new business.

westerly National have never liked KiwiSaver. They would prefer the wealthier to continue to treat our expensive residential housing as their pension schemes, enjoying minimal taxable income and untaxed leveraged capital gains. The less wealthy it would to continue to demonise if they ask for a state pension that would cover accommodation costs as they were continually priced out of home ownership (which will remain the only way to have security of accommodation tenure under National) by investors looking for the most tax efficient returns.

Meanwhile NZ companies would continue to relocate funding and ownership to the Australian financial markets as KiwiSaver funds get raided with a National government keen to create more and more exemptions?

National should create a public fund to lend money to help unemployed kiwis, instead of allowing the pension scheme to be eroded.

Zaphod

29-08-2020, 11:37 AM

According to their fact sheet: "We will repeal the changes made by Labour to the Employment
Relations Act " and $20000 can be used from your Kiwi Saver to start a new business.

westerly

Exactly - repealing the changes made by Labour would mean that the exact times of rest and meal break aren't mandated by legislation. More to the point though, the assertion that "Lunchtime and rest breaks will be axed under Judy" is demonstrably false.
Allowing $20K to be used from a KiwiSaver account to start a business is not "a kiwisaver raid thrown in too".

Zaphod

29-08-2020, 12:00 PM

National have never liked KiwiSaver. They would prefer the wealthier to continue to treat our expensive residential housing as their pension schemes, enjoying minimal taxable income and untaxed leveraged capital gains.

What evidence do you have that National don't like KiwiSaver?

On your other point, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Labour that allowed KiwiSaver retirement funds to be used to purchase residential housing?

Bjauck

29-08-2020, 01:13 PM

What evidence do you have that National don't like KiwiSaver?

On your other point, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Labour that allowed KiwiSaver retirement funds to be used to purchase residential housing?
National voted against the KiwiSaver Bill. Then Key claimed they did not support because it had few incentives. Yet when in power he actually reduced the $1000 joining incentive plus reduced the annual credit by half! Now they want it to be used to fund the business start-ups of those who become unemployed.

The First home Withdrawal (which incidentally I disagree with) is allowed to purchase an owner-occupied first home - it is not to buy investor residential housing in addition to any owner-occupied main dwelling. That investor housing seems to be the National Party preferred pension scheme for those who can afford it.

However both labour and national have done little to reduce the comparative appeal of residential real estate as pension scheme - although National even less than Labour.

Zaphod

29-08-2020, 01:28 PM

National voted against the KiwiSaver Bill. Then Key claimed they did not support because it had few incentives. Yet when in power he actually reduced the $1000 joining incentive plus reduced the annual credit by half! Now they want it to be used to fund the business start-ups of those who become unemployed.

National weren't opposing KiwiSaver, they were voting against the reform package as it stood. Reducing government subsidies was also what Cullen proposed.

The First home Withdrawal (which incidentally I disagree with) is allowed to purchase an owner-occupied first home - it is not to buy investor residential housing in addition to any owner-occupied main dwelling. That investor housing seems to be the National Party preferred pension scheme for those who can afford it.

However both labour and national have done little to reduce the comparative appeal of residential real estate as pension scheme - although National even less than Labour.

The Kiwi way of saving for retirement is to purchase a family home to do up, flick then repeat. Our neighbours are doing just that right now, and this is their 5th home in 9 or so years. They used Kiwisaver to buy their first investment home. Using the fund to start a business, given the current circumstances, does not challenge the precedent already set.

For the record, I too disagree with using Kiwisaver for both of these purpose.

dobby41

29-08-2020, 03:50 PM

Look at how the '4 legs good, 2 legs better' brigade is avoiding the other thread Labour/NZ First Government like the plague to avoid the awkward questions posed by jonu?
Missed that, being away around the country again on holiday.

Bjauck

29-08-2020, 04:13 PM

National weren't opposing KiwiSaver, they were voting against the reform package as it stood. Reducing government subsidies was also what Cullen proposed.

The Kiwi way of saving for retirement is to purchase a family home to do up, flick then repeat. Our neighbours are doing just that right now, and this is their 5th home in 9 or so years. They used Kiwisaver to buy their first investment home. Using the fund to start a business, given the current circumstances, does not challenge the precedent already set.

For the record, I too disagree with using Kiwisaver for both of these purpose.

No the kiwi way was to buy a home after marriage, do it up, make it home for the family to grow up in. Then maybe for those who could afford they would buy a rental. However I agree that many do now flip homes every few years as they get the best leveraged returns - largely untaxed apart from needing to pay rates. So yep over capitalising the family home becomes the pension scheme. Consequently the family home (increasingly affordable by only a minority) amd investor residential property should have the same burden of tax as a percentage of gains as KiwiSaver. Home ownership is being subsidised by other tax payers.

Zaphod

29-08-2020, 06:29 PM

No the kiwi way was to buy a home after marriage, do it up, make it home for the family to grow up in. Then maybe for those who could afford they would buy a rental. However I agree that many do now flip homes every few years as they get the best leveraged returns - largely untaxed apart from needing to pay rates. So yep over capitalising the family home becomes the pension scheme. Consequently the family home (increasingly affordable by only a minority) amd investor residential property should have the same burden of tax as a percentage of gains as KiwiSaver. Home ownership is being subsidised by other tax payers.

I think the key word in this is "was". Certainly for my generation and those subsequent, the road to riches is to buy a house, do it up, flick it on. Only a very few of my peers are into purchasing property to turn into residential rentals, which I can completely understand.

From what you've written I assume you'd advocate for a CGT (or something similar, if implemented) to apply to the family home?

Bjauck

29-08-2020, 07:17 PM

I think the key word in this is "was". Certainly for my generation and those subsequent, the road to riches is to buy a house, do it up, flick it on. Only a very few of my peers are into purchasing property to turn into residential rentals, which I can completely understand.

From what you've written I assume you'd advocate for a CGT (or something similar, if implemented) to apply to the family home? Yep. Along with taxable Imputed net rent - in conjunction with a decent CGT threshold and income tax Threshold before tax would be levied. However that would not be possible politically at this stage. So instead, I would advocate that KiwiSaver should at least receive the same tax leniency as owner-occupied housing.

boysy

01-09-2020, 09:03 PM

Labour support drops in August but still maintains huge lead of 19.5% over National

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8...0-202008310343

Must be another rouge poll no doubt .....

dobby41

02-09-2020, 09:18 AM

Balance

02-09-2020, 09:19 AM

A veteran red-zone activist says if the government overseeing Christchurch’s quake response was managing the coronavirus pandemic “we’d have … 3000 or 4000 elderly folk dead”.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/122558553/munted-there-was-no-dialogue-no-transparency

This is the city that Gerry tried to build.

Yawn - activist who wanted taxpayers to pay for the uninsured to be fully compensated and get new houses built for them.

Must be getting desperate to post such an article. Yawn.

dobby41

02-09-2020, 09:42 AM

Yawn - activist who wanted taxpayers to pay for the uninsured to get new houses built for them. Yawn.

Have a look at the film series to see how well Gerry and National did(n't).
Christchurch is still suffering from the mess National made.

dobby41

02-09-2020, 09:54 AM

National getting back into the dirty politics - what they are best at
Judith Collins apologises over 'misleading' ad after Speaker forces National to take it down
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12361357

fungus pudding

02-09-2020, 10:14 AM

Yep. Along with taxable Imputed net rent - in conjunction with a decent CGT threshold and income tax Threshold before tax would be levied. However that would not be possible politically at this stage. So instead, I would advocate that KiwiSaver should at least receive the same tax leniency as owner-occupied housing.

CGT exempting the family home would be ridiculous; yet when, if ever, CGT is introduced in NZ, that is what we will end up with. Nothing wrong with a properly designed CGT. Everything wrong with a half-baked scheme, especially when designed especially to appease envy.

dobby41

02-09-2020, 10:38 AM

CGT exempting the family home would be ridiculous; yet when, if ever, CGT is introduced in NZ, that is what we will end up with. Nothing wrong with a properly designed CGT. Everything wrong with a half-baked scheme, especially when designed especially to appease envy.

Yes - the devil, as always, is in the detail.
Account for inflation and tax the real gain.

Bjauck

02-09-2020, 11:17 AM

Yes - the devil, as always, is in the detail.
Account for inflation and tax the real gain.
As long as inflation is also accounted for those who only earn wages and salaries. Taxing income below the amount of income needed in order to keep an individual alive, whilst allowing capital gains to remain tax free, is illogical and reflects a current system based on vested interests.

Instead of inflation adjustment, perhaps it would be easier to implement a CGT based on a good threshold before taxing both Capital gains and income. Different asset classes have different inflation rates.

Allowing an exemption for the family home makes no sense. Perhaps there could be a concession for the family home insofar as the unused part of any annual tax-free allowance could accumulate and be finally off-set in the period in which the family home is sold.

As FP said, basing a tax system on envy or vested interests is inefficient in the long run. All forms of income and gains should be treated equally by the tax system.

Then the government of the day could make the political decisions as to which sectors or groups of people it would subsidise.

dobby41

02-09-2020, 11:28 AM

As long as inflation is also accounted for those who only earn wages and salaries. Taxing income below the amount of income needed in order to keep an individual alive, whilst allowing capital gains to remain tax free, is illogical and reflects a current system based on vested interests.

Instead of inflation adjustment, perhaps it would be easier to implement a CGT based on a good threshold before taxing both Capital gains and income. Different asset classes have different inflation rates.

Allowing an exemption for the family home makes no sense. Perhaps there could be a concession for the family home insofar as the unused part of any annual tax-free allowance could accumulate and be finally off-set in the period in which the family home is sold.

As FP said, basing a tax system on envy or vested interests is inefficient in the long run. All forms of income and gains should be treated equally by the tax system.

Then the government of the day could make the political decisions as to which sectors or groups of people it would subsidise.

For the record - I was in favour of a CGT.
The devil, though, is in the detail. Such as excluding the family home, taxing all gain even that which is due to inflation.
Some time ago I built a house for $300k (including land).
9 years later I sold it for $630k and built another much the same. Total cost (including land) - $625k. No gain there.

dobby41

02-09-2020, 11:32 AM

Yawn - activist who wanted taxpayers to pay for the uninsured to be fully compensated and get new houses built for them.

Would that be the Red Zone - that act from Brownlee that the court finally ruled illegal (paying only half the value).
Much like you felt that the Govt had an obligation to business because they forced them to close (with the lockdowns) if you force someone from their land you have an obligation to them - insured or not. Or maybe that only applies to Labour govts?

BlackPeter

02-09-2020, 11:44 AM

As FP said, basing a tax system on envy or vested interests is inefficient in the long run. All forms of income and gains should be treated equally.

Agreed. But this is the theory.

Any income tax is easy to implement and difficult to avoid.

Any consumption tax (like GST) is easy to implement and difficult to avoid.

Any CGT however is difficult to implement and easy to avoid. No matter how you design a CGT, it always would be unfair to some people ... and anybody with enough money to pay a good tax accountant will find plenty of loop holes to avoid it (using trusts, companies, overseas assets, ...). As well, the effort to make it at least acceptable is much higher than the income through said CGT. While most countries do have a CGT, am I not aware of any country where a CGT contributes in a material way to the countries income, and this is not even accounting for the additional cost which both taxpayers as well as IRD have to carry to collect this tax.

I don't know whether it would be possible to define some sort of fair to everybody CGT (I doubt it) - but it certainly would not be efficient to implement. I would not want to see a tax created where the collection costs taxpayers and IRD more money than it returns.

Bjauck

02-09-2020, 12:07 PM

Agreed. But this is the theory.

Any income tax is easy to implement and difficult to avoid...

I don't know whether it would be possible to define some sort of fair to everybody CGT (I doubt it) - but it certainly would not be efficient to implement. I would not want to see a tax created where the collection costs taxpayers and IRD more money than it returns.

Maybe a system of stamp duties levied on disposal and acquisition of assets, in the same way as GST is levied. Easier to levy but not as equitable as introducing a general CGT. But it would help address the gap in the system that currently concentrates on taxing income and consumption.

Panda-NZ-

02-09-2020, 12:10 PM

Does this seem simple:

GST guide (48 pages) +
GST adjustments (20 pages)

https://www.classic.ird.govt.nz/resources/0/f/0f4c236b-a7a9-4b48-a88e-725d55731f7b/ir375-2019.pdf
https://www.ird.govt.nz/gst/gst-adjustments

GST needs it's own special tax return it's so complicated. I imagine a CGT would be included in a standard income tax return, very simple which is why every country has it.

Though maybe inflation needs to be accounted for in some way.

BlackPeter

02-09-2020, 01:37 PM

GST needs it's own special tax return it's so complicated. I imagine a CGT would be included in a standard income tax return, very simple which is why every country has it.

Though maybe inflation needs to be accounted for in some way.

Inflation is just the beginning. Imagine you own a house which you bought 10 years ago for $500k and is now worth $1 million.

You change jobs and need to move, sell your house, pay say $100k CGT (for the 500k you made) and have now only $900k to replace your $1 million house. You have to downgrade for your next house. How is this fair compared to e.g. your neighbour who can live in his $1 m house without paying taxes who prefers e.g. to collect the doll instead of moving and paying CGT?

You buy shares and the company you bought crashes. Can you deduct this loss from your capital gains in your house? Over which time? What if you don't want to sell your house but have this capital loss in shares? How would it be fair that you have to pay taxes for capital gains but any losses are all yours?

You sell the house below market value to a relative or friend or your trust or your company ... can you deduct your losses from your tax obligation?

You sell your house to a company you own ... and sell then shares in this company. How is CGT calculated? Do you see a potential for a loophole?

You buy the house above market value ... and make a loss when you sell - s. above. What if you received an undocumented kick back when buying the house?

The administration of any CGT would be an expensive nightmare, it always would be unfair to some and you could drive trucks through the loopholes. Official property values might even drop (have a look e.g. at Italy), but it would be pretty difficult to buy any property at he official price.

Balance

02-09-2020, 01:39 PM

Would that be the Red Zone - that act from Brownlee that the court finally ruled illegal (paying only half the value).
Much like you felt that the Govt had an obligation to business because they forced them to close (with the lockdowns) if you force someone from their land you have an obligation to them - insured or not. Or maybe that only applies to Labour govts?

They chose to be UNINSURED - whose fault is that? The taxpayer?

dobby41

02-09-2020, 02:15 PM

They chose to be UNINSURED - whose fault is that? The taxpayer?

They didn't choose to have the land that their house was on (irrespective of its individual merits) declared a no go.
The Appeals court agreed with them - you know, the law. (And in this case the court didn't say there was justification for the Govt to get the law wrong because they were in a hurry on a very important matter - they had truck loads of time to get it right.)
Try thinking a bit rather than be blinded by devotion of one side and hate for the other.

Bjauck

02-09-2020, 02:56 PM

Inflation is just the beginning. Imagine you own a house which you bought 10 years ago for $500k and is now worth $1 million.

You change jobs and need to move, sell your house, pay say $100k CGT (for the 500k you made) and have now only $900k to replace your $1 million house. You have to downgrade for your next house. How is this fair compared to e.g. your neighbour who can live in his $1 m house without paying taxes who prefers e.g. to collect the doll instead of moving and paying CGT?

You buy shares and the company you bought crashes. Can you deduct this loss from your capital gains in your house? Over which time?.... Yes a complex area. No doubt there would schemes to reduce exposure to a CGT just as there are to reduce exposure to the current taxes.

Perhaps there could be a deferred exposure to a CGT so that there would be a running net amount carried forward from one year to the next, and which would only become payable when an asset was disposed of and not replaced. Ultimately the balance would solidify and become payable on death or death of the spouse. This would then become a quasi death tax levied on the estate. This would taken into account capital losses provided they did not exceed gains over the lifetime.

fungus pudding

02-09-2020, 04:11 PM

Yes a complex area. No doubt there would schemes to reduce exposure to a CGT just as there are to reduce exposure to the current taxes.

Perhaps there could be a deferred exposure to a CGT so that there would be a running net amount carried forward from one year to the next, and which would only become payable when an asset was disposed of and not replaced. Ultimately the balance would solidify and become payable on death or death of the spouse. This would then become a quasi death tax levied on the estate. This would taken into account capital losses provided they did not exceed gains over the lifetime.

Yes. A fair scheme would definitely have a repatriation clause with a fair time limit, say two years, so that the CGT becomes an exit tax.

fungus pudding

02-09-2020, 04:25 PM

blackcap

02-09-2020, 04:46 PM

Nonsense. GST, especially NZ style, is simple. Any two year old could file a GST return. CGT on the other hand, is complex, particularly when sorting capital work from maintenance.

I second that. Have just been reading the GST provisions in the Master Tax Guide. About 100 pages. But for 99% of tax payers, GST is very simple. Add up receipts, take away expenses and do the GST adjustment. The form is very simple to fill out.
CGT will Just help the lawyers and accountants. Not required.

Panda-NZ-

02-09-2020, 07:51 PM

I second that. Have just been reading the GST provisions in the Master Tax Guide. About 100 pages. But for 99% of tax payers, GST is very simple. Add up receipts, take away expenses and do the GST adjustment. The form is very simple to fill out.
CGT will Just help the lawyers and accountants. Not required.

Plus all the receipts you often have to keep, gst numbers on an invoice, then having to file your "GST return" every two months (sometimes with IR372 attached plus spare "workings" papers) rather than once annually. It's a minefield. ^^

fungus pudding

02-09-2020, 08:42 PM

Plus all the receipts you often have to keep, gst numbers on an invoice, then having to file your "GST return" every two months (sometimes with IR372 attached plus spare "workings" papers) rather than once annually. It's a minefield.

Only if you are thick. It's a simple matter of keeping a piece of paper with + and - columns; adding up every 2 or 6 months, and entering totals online. Chuck all your receipts in an envelope - write the period dates on it and throw it under your bed for safe keeping. (or scan them if there's no room under your bed) Easily done in minutes. If you find that hard then any other tax would be impossible for you to comprehend. Obviously you have never filed a GST return or you wouldn't have such an abysmal understanding of the process.

Blue Skies

02-09-2020, 08:44 PM

Just to add a few important differences which immediately come to mind, from the govt's perspective between CGT & GST.

The govt could be waiting many years for any significant gain in tax revenue from a CGT when it needs it now, and with loop holes and capital loss write offs, not much more than a wild guess at exactly how much revenue it will produce & when. It would also add substantial costs (to the IRD) to calculate & collect a CGT esp as complicated calculations covering many years were regularly bogged down in disputes, they might lose as much as 20% of the revenue in costs.

On the other hand, an increase in GST produces an immediate increase in tax revenue from day 1, has virtually no cost to the govt to collect & administer so they gain 100% of the tax revenue, is easily adjustable and is difficult to escape.

Panda-NZ-

02-09-2020, 08:48 PM

blackcap

03-09-2020, 04:21 AM

Plus all the receipts you often have to keep, gst numbers on an invoice, then having to file your "GST return" every two months (sometimes with IR372 attached plus spare "workings" papers) rather than once annually. It's a minefield. ^^

Don't be silly. Gst numbers on an invoice? Are you kidding me. Every 2 months, or 6 months filing is not that onerous. Does not take long and if it does it means your business is large enough to have an accountant. By the way, ever heard of Xero?

artemis

03-09-2020, 06:12 AM

A common estimate of the black / grey economy is $20 billion a year. That is a lot of income tax not paid that can be partly or mostly offset by a GST increase. In the past there has been an adjustment to income tax to achieve neutrality with a GST increase. An opportunity to reset thresholds.

Parties tax policies? Greens and ACT have published theirs.

dobby41

03-09-2020, 08:15 AM

The calculation is simple and would not be retrospective:
(Sale price - purchase price) * tax

So buy for $500k
Over the next 2 yrs add $200k improvements (new kitchen, bathroom etc (rather than new rooms))
10 yrs later sell for $1.2mil
Pay tax on $700k
Purchase new house similar to old for $1.2mil because housing inflation has grown the cost.
Not only has the housing inflation been taxed but so have the improvements you paid for.

dobby41

03-09-2020, 08:17 AM

Plus all the receipts you often have to keep, gst numbers on an invoice, then having to file your "GST return" every two months (sometimes with IR372 attached plus spare "workings" papers) rather than once annually. It's a minefield. ^^

I file mine every 6 months - almost does itself.
If you use Xero I believe it does do it itself.

fungus pudding

03-09-2020, 08:36 AM

Physical stores will have to change all their price labels which is a direct cost to them.

Plus it's a revenue tax and will hit businesses when we don't need that, but rather to obtain something from the currently untaxed parts of the economy.

The calculation is simple and would not be retrospective:
(Sale price - purchase price) * tax

You must spend each and every day looking for obstacles. Quik-stik labels are cheap and easy to advise any GST change. All taxes hit the consumer. What's your next problem?

Panda-NZ-

03-09-2020, 10:17 AM

So buy for $500k
Over the next 2 yrs add $200k improvements (new kitchen, bathroom etc (rather than new rooms))
10 yrs later sell for $1.2mil
Pay tax on $700k
Purchase new house similar to old for $1.2mil because housing inflation has grown the cost.
Not only has the housing inflation been taxed but so have the improvements you paid for.

Simple solution -- add the improvements to the purchase price.

You must spend each and every day looking for obstacles. Quik-stik labels are cheap and easy to advise any GST change. All taxes hit the consumer. What's your next problem?

Plus the staff wages, opportunity cost and wasted time for whoever has to do this.

dobby41

03-09-2020, 10:41 AM

Simple solution -- add the improvements to the purchase price.

Carpet?
Painted the walls?
New vanity?
All stuff done over the 20 years you owned the place - receipts kept?
Simple!

artemis

03-09-2020, 11:24 AM

Carpet?
Painted the walls?
New vanity?
All stuff done over the 20 years you owned the place - receipts kept?
Simple!

Exactly! Not many owner occupiers keep those records, and seldom for the duration of ownership anyway. Of course they would need to differentiate between maintenance and improvements. IRD has a simple method LOL!

However, unlikely any CGT would be retrospective so there would be time to set up a large fireproof safe to keep the records in for the next 20 years.

fungus pudding

03-09-2020, 11:37 AM

Simple solution -- add the improvements to the purchase price.

Plus the staff wages, opportunity cost and wasted time for whoever has to do this.

You have absolutely no understanding of this subject. Stop embarrassing yourself and find something useful to do.

Panda-NZ-

03-09-2020, 11:47 AM

That's quite mean.. we live in a country of free speech. feel free to address the substance

Back on topic the most recent Nat leader seems to be rather old upon taking office. Medical records should be reviewed once you are near the superannuation age IMO.

dobby41

10-09-2020, 09:53 AM

National are desperate for people to 'like' Judith
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300103631/a-quarter-of-nationals-facebook-advert-spend-chasing-likes-for-collins

BlackPeter

10-09-2020, 10:11 AM

National are desperate for people to 'like' Judith
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300103631/a-quarter-of-nationals-facebook-advert-spend-chasing-likes-for-collins

Yep. Sad story.

Unfortunately National lost recently a lot of good people (true, a lot of bad people as well, but this is another story). Instead of trying to keep and grow good people they now throw money at getting facebook likes for the bad ones. I doubt this will work.

tim23

10-09-2020, 09:00 PM

fungus pudding

11-09-2020, 09:34 AM

They should be desperate - what is their to really like about Judith?

Not much. What is there to like about your spelling? :D

ynot

11-09-2020, 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=BlackPeter;842929]Yep. Sad story.

Unfortunately National lost recently a lot of good people (true, a lot of bad people as well, but this is another story). Instead of trying to keep and grow good people they now throw money at getting facebook likes for the bad ones. I doubt this will work.[/QUOTE

Admittedly national are down on firepower but compared to Labours talent of about 3 or maybe 4 with half a brain, no contest.

fungus pudding

11-09-2020, 03:45 PM

ynot

11-09-2020, 03:59 PM

[QUOTE=ynot;843448]

Labour is certainly short of talent, but National has yet to find an election winning leader. Labour will romp back in.
You are probably correct but would not be so quick to write off the anti Jacinda movement.

boysy

11-09-2020, 05:42 PM

Fairly certain those people wouldn’t vote for her anyway - how anyone thinks Judith will win over centrist voters who voted Centre left is beyond me - she was bought in to stem the bleeding but nationals 30% polling is going to result in a fair few current Nat MPs Looking for a new leader or new job .....

tim23

11-09-2020, 09:15 PM

Not much. What is there to like about your spelling? :D

And your pompous attitude?

tim23

11-09-2020, 09:16 PM

fungus pudding

12-09-2020, 07:55 AM

And your pompous attitude?

My attitude, which is not pompous, needs no explanation.

fungus pudding

12-09-2020, 07:59 AM

Funny how the Key fans forget that he dumped Collins - probably for good reason...

A very good reason I'd say. The Nats are certainly heading down the wrong street with this EV bus lane nonsense etc. Exactly the sort of policy I would expect from Labour. Get back on-course Judith!

blackcap

12-09-2020, 08:04 AM

A very good reason I'd say. The Nats are certainly heading down the wrong street with this EV bus lane nonsense etc. Exactly the sort of policy I would expect from Labour. Get back on-course Judith!

They have lost my vote for a while now. This is the nail in the coffin. Need to get back to National core policy and direction.

iceman

12-09-2020, 08:16 AM

Funny how the Key fans forget that he dumped Collins - probably for good reason...

Unlike the current PM, John Key ruthlessly fired Ministers for any mistakes. Collins had been accused of being involved in a smear campaign against the CEO of the Serious Fraud Office. An investigation found the accusations to be baseless and she was re-appointed as Minister.
Don't let facts get in your way tim23

fungus pudding

12-09-2020, 08:43 AM

They have lost my vote for a while now. This is the nail in the coffin. Need to get back to National core policy and direction.

Same here. By the process of elimination Labour, NZ First, The Kermits and now National - all gone. Looks like Act will get my vote this time.

iceman

12-09-2020, 09:26 AM

They have lost my vote for a while now. This is the nail in the coffin. Need to get back to National core policy and direction.

What is it about the policy that upsets you this much ? I am curious and genuinely interested to know

BlackPeter

12-09-2020, 10:15 AM

You are probably correct but would not be so quick to write off the anti Jacinda movement.

Just a wee technical issue. If you stop in your replies to edit the area between
"[QUOTE=.... and
"[\QUOTE],

then your posts will look much more sensible.

If you do need to change the post you are replying to (e.g. to reply just to a part of the post), then be very careful and don't remove parts of the html syntax (the stuff between and including the the brackets []), ... and obviously don't change the meaning of any post you reply to ..

ynot

12-09-2020, 11:00 AM

Thank you.

westerly

12-09-2020, 12:41 PM

And your pompous attitude?

You could add acerbic and pedantic.

westerly

fungus pudding

12-09-2020, 01:17 PM

You could add acerbic and pedantic.

westerly

Pedantic, yes - I am a proud pedant.

Bjauck

12-09-2020, 01:22 PM

You could add acerbic and pedantic.

westerly Paying attention to detail is not necessarily a bad thing.

elZorro

16-09-2020, 09:31 AM

fungus pudding

16-09-2020, 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=ynot;843448]

You mean it's great that National have candidates like Jake Bezzant?

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/election-2020/national-candidates-questionable-exit-from-tech-firm

And it's great they don't have clowns like Twyford at no. 4 in their ranks. That really should make anyone wonder about the rest of them.

blackcap

16-09-2020, 10:21 AM

What is it about the policy that upsets you this much ? I am curious and genuinely interested to know

Hi Iceman, apologies for late reply. It's just a policy that is nit picking around the fringes and trying to pander to a minority that I do not like about it. Like I said, get back to core policy and direction. I do not have much affinity for EV's as they pollute the environment more than ICE. (See Autobild). I just think they are barking up the wrong tree. But its not the policy that broke it for me, but it does cement my earlier thinking, plenty of other things that have gone on this year. For me its a choice between Act and NC at this stage. They both will be a reasonable coalition partner for National should they get the requisite votes to win.

Zaphod

16-09-2020, 10:30 AM

Hi Iceman, apologies for late reply. It's just a policy that is nit picking around the fringes and trying to pander to a minority that I do not like about it. Like I said, get back to core policy and direction. I do not have much affinity for EV's as they pollute the environment more than ICE. (See Autobild). I just think they are barking up the wrong tree. But its not the policy that broke it for me, but it does cement my earlier thinking, plenty of other things that have gone on this year. For me its a choice between Act and NC at this stage. They both will be a reasonable coalition partner for National should they get the requisite votes to win.

Personally, I tend to agree with the sentiment that Bus lanes should be for more efficient mass transit. If a government would like to provide special lanes for EV's (presumably until EV's comprise a fair proportion of all traffic) then perhaps they need to look at using the T2+ lanes. Even then I'm or two minds about it.

iceman

16-09-2020, 10:43 AM

Hi Iceman, apologies for late reply. It's just a policy that is nit picking around the fringes and trying to pander to a minority that I do not like about it. Like I said, get back to core policy and direction. I do not have much affinity for EV's as they pollute the environment more than ICE. (See Autobild). I just think they are barking up the wrong tree. But its not the policy that broke it for me, but it does cement my earlier thinking, plenty of other things that have gone on this year. For me its a choice between Act and NC at this stage. They both will be a reasonable coalition partner for National should they get the requisite votes to win.

Thanks blackcap. Fair enough reasoning. I'm likewise frustrated with no real policy debate and a Government hellbent on avoiding any sensible discussion.

fungus pudding

16-09-2020, 10:45 AM

Hi Iceman, apologies for late reply. It's just a policy that is nit picking around the fringes and trying to pander to a minority that I do not like about it. Like I said, get back to core policy and direction. I do not have much affinity for EV's as they pollute the environment more than ICE. (See Autobild). I just think they are barking up the wrong tree. But its not the policy that broke it for me, but it does cement my earlier thinking, plenty of other things that have gone on this year. For me its a choice between Act and NC at this stage. They both will be a reasonable coalition partner for National should they get the requisite votes to win.

Certainly looks like Act will do well. Not so sure the New Conservatives would be a good mix with National. (or any other party for that matter)

Zaphod

16-09-2020, 04:42 PM

Thanks blackcap. Fair enough reasoning. I'm likewise frustrated with no real policy debate and a Government hellbent on avoiding any sensible discussion.

What I haven't appreciated is being called a misogynist by a peer for daring to critique the government's response. I never even directed anything personally at Jacinda, but apparently my lack of appreciation of the policies means that I don't like strong women leaders. Reading through the various comments on social media, I've noticed similar responses to others in the same position. This is not a sign of a healthy democracy.

Panda-NZ-

16-09-2020, 04:50 PM

It is a best in the world response though so some are right to be a bit skeptical of some of the people criticising. Do they want us to do worse?

We're one of over 191 countries even though the media doesn't like to provide international context.
Taiwan beats us an that's pretty much it.

iceman

16-09-2020, 06:29 PM

fungus pudding

16-09-2020, 06:32 PM

Panda-NZ-

16-09-2020, 06:39 PM

A load of rubbish. The Government has NO plan other than locking down the country. That’s not a plan.

We're not China where state planning is a thing. which other country has "a plan" other than wait for a vaccine, which we are doing exceptionally well at thus far.

Panda-NZ-

16-09-2020, 06:40 PM

Taiwan and a heap of others.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

#50 in active cases only bested by small population or third world countries and countries hiding their figures (UK).

iceman

16-09-2020, 07:05 PM

We're not China where state planning is a thing. Which other country has "a plan" other than wait for a vaccine, which we are doing exceptionally well at.

I agree we are “Doing exceptionally well” at waiting for a vaccine. But that could be a long wait and closing the borders and parts of the country on and off is not a plan. The number of active cases is not the sole measure of success. I suggest to you that all the Scandinavian countries (yes including Sweden) and several others in Europe as well as Taiwan are doing just as well as NZ with containing COVID and better with limiting economic damage. But only time will tell

tim23

16-09-2020, 07:08 PM

[QUOTE=elZorro;844161]

And it's great they don't have clowns like Twyford at no. 4 in their ranks. That really should make anyone wonder about the rest of them.

Oh and your lot have Collins at Number 1!!

tim23

16-09-2020, 07:11 PM

A load of rubbish. The Government has NO plan other than locking down the country. That’s not a plan.
-
Hasn't been a bad plan so far - your lot would have us riddled with the disease by now.

Balance

16-09-2020, 07:12 PM

A load of rubbish. The Government has NO plan other than locking down the country. That’s not a plan.

The plan is - okay to allow Wallabies in but not much needed seasonal workers. Same quarantine structure but there’s no votes in the business sector.

Balance

16-09-2020, 07:14 PM

What I haven't appreciated is being called a misogynist by a peer for daring to critique the government's response. I never even directed anything personally at Jacinda, but apparently my lack of appreciation of the policies means that I don't like strong women leaders. Reading through the various comments on social media, I've noticed similar responses to others in the same position. This is not a sign of a healthy democracy.

Cindy is a politician and as cynical & grubby as they come - and a bare face liar to boot.

Just because she plays the wonder-eyed little girl does not mean she is pure and innocent. On the contrary.

Recall her Comrade video clip? Anything to get noticed and to get votes.

Baa_Baa

16-09-2020, 08:24 PM

The plan is - okay to allow Wallabies in but not much needed seasonal workers. Same quarantine structure but there’s no votes in the business sector.

Incredible, sports attendance gets the votes while agriculture sector literally will die on the vine. It’s not political, yeah right!

Panda-NZ-

16-09-2020, 09:54 PM

Well you can't expect things to be the same as they were in 2019. If you haven't noticed there is a pandemic on.

Agriculture is disrupted everywhere except here thanks to the govts health response. so we are in fact winning, and having record export prices.

https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/export-prices#:~:text=Export%20Prices%20in%20New%20Zealan d%20is%20expected%20to%20be%201335.00,1320.00%20in %2012%20months%20time.

BlackPeter

17-09-2020, 08:50 AM

A load of rubbish. The Government has NO plan other than locking down the country. That’s not a plan.

I would agree with this sentiment. Not sure, though whether the other side has a better plan - or do they?

So far I just see a lolly scramble with both big parties competing to make big spending promises.

I really would like to understand whether National has a better plan. Just wondering whether anybody in the know could share it with us?

iceman

17-09-2020, 09:52 AM

fungus pudding

17-09-2020, 09:55 AM

[QUOTE=fungus pudding;844199]

Oh and your lot have Collins at Number 1!!

Collins is not in my lot. Nevertheless she is not plain stupid, as is Twyford.

BlackPeter

17-09-2020, 12:35 PM

I would agree with this sentiment. Not sure, though whether the other side has a better plan - or do they?

So far I just see a lolly scramble with both big parties competing to make big spending promises.

I really would like to understand whether National has a better plan. Just wondering whether anybody in the know could share it with us?

I do not disagree with that BP. It is relatively easy to go onto each party's website and look at their policies. National has come out with lots of policies recently, some of which I like and some of which I don't. You are absolutely right about a lolly scramble but I think that is largely driven by the headline grabbing media with little detailed reporting and a voting public that likes free money being thrown around with no thought of how to pay it back. It will be sad for many when reality hits.

Just came across this (paywalled) article in the herald: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12365438

I get it. I really do. Labour is polling over 50 per cent. They're popular. And they haven't really done anything. So they're pretty much promising nothing.

National doesn't know how to counter this. Labour's approach has been popular, so National is trying to mimic them except suggest they'd be better at doing nothing.

It's just that when you're on your third leader in four months, and you lose a bunch of senior MPs, it's hard to pitch yourself as better at anything team related. Maybe they'd beat Labour at softball. I could see Judith Collins being fiercely good at wielding a bat.

There are no ideas coming from our two major parties. Someone from these two parties is going to be Prime Minister. And New Zealand should be proud that our two major parties are led by women and nobody is batting an eyelid. But we shouldn't be proud of how bereft of new initiatives we're seeing.

I think the intro to David Cormack's article (above) nicely sums the situation up. Just the Greens and ACT coming up this election with new ideas. Obviously - which of them we like might be up to the perspective of the reader :);

artemis

17-09-2020, 01:47 PM

Panda-NZ-

17-09-2020, 02:13 PM

It is worth looking at National's policies through the social investment lens. That is certainly the underpinning of some policies announced so far.

The basic proposition is that data is collected and analysed to determine best bangs for the buck in the medium and especially long term. Edu and dental policies are two recent examples. In place already is the Young Parent Payment, designed to steer teen parents into a productive life for their household rather than decades on benefit.

Also their earlier proposal to remove bulk funding for schools by decile and instead use specific risk factors for schools to identify and fund individual pupils where extra support is actually needed.

This underpinning will fly right past many voters but members of this site have a much better than average ability to appreciate that targeting is better than helicopter money.

Wider issues such as why national refused to improve savings levels over their nine years (taking away kiwisaver tax credits and not lifiting contributions) or invest in the super fund so we rely on foreign investment and land sales.

There is sometimes too much of a focus the expense side when both revenue and expenses should be looked at when we have a 100 year crisis. It's good to see the restoration of the training incentive allowance, a part time minimum wage role (considered to be a success under social investment) is not going to cut it to raise a family.

artemis

17-09-2020, 02:32 PM

Wider issues such as why national refused to improve savings levels over their nine years (taking away kiwisaver tax credits and not lifiting contributions) or invest in the super fund so we rely on foreign investment and land sales.

There is sometimes too much of a focus the expense side when both revenue and expenses should be looked at when we have a 100 year crisis. It's good to see the restoration of the training incentive allowance, a part time minimum wage role (considered to be a success under social investment) is not going to cut it to raise a family.

IIRC the training incentive allowance was removed when student loans became available, later interest free. The reasoning was that beneficiaries could and should be on the same footing as any other student - creating a debt for sure but with the expectation a tertiary qualification would enable them to enter the job market qualified, and no repayments required until graduation and income increased.

Seems fair to me.

I knew a couple of people who used the TIA, both had college aged offspring, quite capable of working but why bother. One graduated with a bachelors and a post grad diploma. Left for overseas and is still there.

PS Perhaps you are not aware there were earthquakes and a GFC.

Panda-NZ-

17-09-2020, 03:12 PM

artemis

17-09-2020, 03:23 PM

Why not create the environment for them to stay then-- which means higher incomes and lower rents.

The earthquake was good for the economy and I'm sure there was higher debt and unemployment after the GFC like there is now.

One left the country for much higher income. No student loan. The other is still here in an admin job nothing to do with her creative arts degree. No student loan.

macduffy

17-09-2020, 08:49 PM

Why not create the environment for them to stay then-- which means higher incomes and lower rents.

The earthquake was good for the economy and I'm sure there was higher debt and unemployment after the GFC like there is now.

If you think that the earthquake was good for the economy, I suggest you research the "broken window fallacy".

blackcap

18-09-2020, 06:48 AM

Why not create the environment for them to stay then-- which means higher incomes and lower rents.

The earthquake was good for the economy and I'm sure there was higher debt and unemployment after the GFC like there is now.

Earthquake is never good for the economy. Just like the fallacy that war is good for an economy. There was destruction on a massive scale. That is never good. Resources that were normally utilised for other production were now diverted to rebuilding. Not to mention the social cost of relocation for a lot of people, mental health costs with shot nerves etc etc.

Bjauck

18-09-2020, 09:18 AM

Why not create the environment for them to stay then-- which means higher incomes and lower rents.

The earthquake was good for the economy and I'm sure there was higher debt and unemployment after the GFC like there is now. Truly? Nothing like destructon of homes and infrastructure, lost business, and dislocation?

Sure, How you react to a disaster will affect recovery.

For example prioritising high profile sports may keep vocal voters entertained and sweet but allowing well supervised agricultural workers in may keep our productive sectors vital and able to stimulate the regional economies.

Zaphod

18-09-2020, 10:30 AM

From what has been reported thus far, New Zealanders are not applying for either the skilled or unskilled agricultural roles which if true, is disappointing and lends weight to the argument around opening the borders in a controlled fashion. It was pleasing to hear Jacinda finally acknowledge as well this during some remarks made at a campaign event.

Panda-NZ-

18-09-2020, 01:04 PM

Truly? Nothing like destructon of homes and infrastructure, lost business, and dislocation?

Sure, How you react to a disaster will affect recovery.

For example prioritising high profile sports may keep vocal voters entertained and sweet but allowing well supervised agricultural workers in may keep our productive sectors vital and able to stimulate the regional economies.

It is a broken window, but it still contributes to GDP numbers.

If you remove the construction activity it will knock 5% off gdp and maybe 1% off employment.

tim23

18-09-2020, 08:54 PM

[QUOTE=tim23;844369]

Collins is not in my lot. Nevertheless she is not plain stupid, as is Twyford.

Well its pretty clear that you are not a Labour voter, so maybe you are in that party with JL Ross?

iceman

19-09-2020, 07:30 AM

fungus pudding

19-09-2020, 08:57 AM

National has now come out with a tax policy which is starkly different to Labour’s. Clearly aimed at temporary reducing the tax on all wage/salary earners to leave more money in the economy rather than Labour’s approach of picking winners to redistribute to like theGreen school and AJ Hackett.

I like National’s approach and hope it resonates with working voters

Certainly better than Labour's crazy envy tax, but why not accompany it with some cost cutting; e.g. the crazy electricity payment - a misnomer if ever there was one. Nothing to do with electricity. Why not call it what it is - a tax free bribe for oldies to spend at the pub?

Zaphod

19-09-2020, 12:01 PM

Wider issues such as why national refused to improve savings levels over their nine years (taking away kiwisaver tax credits and not lifiting contributions) or invest in the super fund so we rely on foreign investment and land sales.

Cullen himself advocated for removal of Government incentives on KiwiSaver, so National's stance is perfectly in line with Labour's expectations for the scheme.
Borrowing to fund super was not a sensible move during a recession created by the 2008 GFC, nor during the economic impact of the 2011 Christchurch earthquakes. Cullen's vision for Kiwisaver to be means tested against national super means we wouldn't require such hefty contributions anyway. We obviously need to continue to follow Labour's vision.

Panda-NZ-

19-09-2020, 12:39 PM

I don't think what Labour said in the past (apparently) is relevant to what national did.

The income tax from both those funds paid for Bill's surplus which he wanted to spend on tax cuts instead of building up the fund to pay for super liabilities.

Bjauck

19-09-2020, 01:04 PM

Cullen himself advocated for removal of Government incentives on KiwiSaver, so National's stance is perfectly in line with Labour's expectations for the scheme.
Borrowing to fund super was not a sensible move during a recession created by the 2008 GFC, nor during the economic impact of the 2011 Christchurch earthquakes. Cullen's vision for Kiwisaver to be means tested against national super means we wouldn't require such hefty contributions anyway. We obviously need to continue to follow Labour's vision.

Increasing taxes on income and means testing kiwisaver/superannuation while not having stamp duties, leaving capital gains untaxed and exempting the owner-occupied family home from a means test would end up ensuring wealthier older people over-capitalised their family home while seeking out assets for capital appreciation rather than income.

boysy

20-09-2020, 02:19 PM

Seems goldsmith can’t really use a calculator - before going on the the attack and mentioning tax cuts you would think you would double and triple check the numbers - a own goal and hit on nationals economic credibility

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122827807/election-2020-fair-cop--nationals-paul-goldsmith-admits-to-accounting-mistake-as-labour-points-out-4b-hole

artemis

20-09-2020, 03:43 PM

Seems goldsmith can’t really use a calculator - before going on the the attack and mentioning tax cuts you would think you would double and triple check the numbers - a own goal and hit on nationals economic credibility ....

Not a good look especially just before the campaign launch.

Who knew that the government has quietly made a big change to super fund contributions? That announcement should certainly have made the news. Was there an announcement? When was the decision made? When did Minister Robertson change his mind about suspending contributions? It is only a few weeks since he said suspending was a backwards step and the fund is a smart investment.

Bjauck

20-09-2020, 04:58 PM

If only we could have a government for national unity for the next 2 or 3 years. Until there is a safe vaccine, we are in the biggest crisis since the Japanese conquered “impregnable” Singapore. Do we really need the mixed messages of an election campaign at this stage. Each Party urging the public not to trust or have confidence in the others?

tim23

20-09-2020, 07:22 PM

Seems goldsmith can’t really use a calculator - before going on the the attack and mentioning tax cuts you would think you would double and triple check the numbers - a own goal and hit on nationals economic credibility

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122827807/election-2020-fair-cop--nationals-paul-goldsmith-admits-to-accounting-mistake-as-labour-points-out-4b-hole

Gotta love that! Wonder if Mr Clever Clogs Joyce will comment on that?

Blue Skies

20-09-2020, 08:06 PM

You had one job Paul, one job & you've f$&%ed it up for the third time!
Judith incandescent, not surprising.

iceman

21-09-2020, 07:00 AM

Gotta love that! Wonder if Mr Clever Clogs Joyce will comment on that?

I wonder if you or others on here will comment on the fact that Robertson pulled out a deliberately deceitful accounting trick by stopping contributions to the super fund after saying that would not happen. Then claimed the books were $4B better than expected without mentioning this fact.
Goldsdmith on the other hand admitted the mistake he made due to this trick from Robertson and corrected his plan accordingly. Changed his plan in a minor way only.

There was much criticism of National on here when they stopped contributions to the Cullen Fund but when Labour does it and lies about it, there is stunned silence from our resident Lefties.

dobby41

21-09-2020, 08:28 AM

I wonder if you or others on here will comment on the fact that Robertson pulled out a deliberately deceitful accounting trick by stopping contributions to the super fund after saying that would not happen.

What actually is happening?
Contributions obviously haven't been stopped because there will still be $15bn in contributions (rather than $19bn) - have they been reduced for a period or what?

iceman

21-09-2020, 09:05 AM

What actually is happening?
Contributions obviously haven't been stopped because there will still be $15bn in contributions (rather than $19bn) - have they been reduced for a period or what?

A bit hard to say as no announcement was made. But appears that fund contributions were cut after the May Budget without any announcement to that affect and Goldsmith had prepared his plan based on the super contributions forecast in the Budget. So Robinson appears to have withheld $4 B in contributions to be able to claim in the pre-election update that he's spent $4B less than forecast !! As cynical as it gets

Blue Skies

21-09-2020, 10:10 AM

A bit hard to say as no announcement was made. But appears that fund contributions were cut after the May Budget without any announcement to that affect and Goldsmith had prepared his plan based on the super contributions forecast in the Budget. So Robinson appears to have withheld $4 B in contributions to be able to claim in the pre-election update that he's spent $4B less than forecast !! As cynical as it gets

Whoa, hold on, your outrage may be a bit misplaced.
The projected Govt contributions to the Superannuation fund are set by Treasury's NZ Superannuation Fund Contribution Rate Model which is always publicly available on Treasury's website. It's a formula so actual contributions are going to vary from year to year.
Goldie made a big deal of waiting till the PREFU came out to get the correct figures to base their economic policy on.
But he used the wrong figures & made a $4B mistake & claimed in his defence on ZB this morning, it's a big document with lots of figures!
C'mon Paul, are you saying it's too complicated for you ? replied a clearly scathing Hoskings.

Secondly, Goldie only admitted the mistake after Grant Robertson corrected the figures for him, he seems completely naive.

Judith & others in National feel very let down, as economic competence is the key plank of the election strategy.
It's such a terrible mistake, some are even asking if it was intentional to destabilise Collin's leadership.

dobby41

21-09-2020, 12:03 PM

Whoa, hold on, your outrage may be a bit misplaced.
The projected Govt contributions to the Superannuation fund are set by Treasury's NZ Superannuation Fund Contribution Rate Model which is always publicly available on Treasury's website. It's a formula so actual contributions are going to vary from year to year.
Goldie made a big deal of waiting till the PREFU came out to get the correct figures to base their economic policy on.
But he used the wrong figures & made a $4B mistake & claimed in his defence on ZB this morning, it's a big document with lots of figures!
C'mon Paul, are you saying it's too complicated for you ? replied a clearly scathing Hoskings.

Secondly, Goldie only admitted the mistake after Grant Robertson corrected the figures for him, he seems completely naive.

Judith & others in National feel very let down, as economic competence is the key plank of the election strategy.
It's such a terrible mistake, some are even asking if it was intentional to destabilise Collin's leadership.

Interesting.
Iceman - read some of the stuff here
https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/model/new-zealand-superannuation-fund-contribution-rate-model-befu-2020
Seems Goldsmith needs to understand how it works also.
Looks like, because the projections for the economy have changed since the budget, the sums given to the fund also change.
So the Govt hasn't cut the contribution, just that less contribution is required.
Unlike National who want to just not contribute - like they did last time they were in.

BlackPeter

21-09-2020, 12:27 PM

Interesting.
Iceman - read some of the stuff here
https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/model/new-zealand-superannuation-fund-contribution-rate-model-befu-2020
Seems Goldsmith needs to understand how it works also.
Looks like, because the projections for the economy have changed since the budget, the sums given to the fund also change.
So the Govt hasn't cut the contribution, just that less contribution is required.
Unlike National who want to just not contribute - like they did last time they were in.

I guess this just shows that National is running this time with a talent depleted and quite unexperienced team ... just one of these rookie errors which are happening if you don't know what you are doing:):;

Pity they managed to get rid of most (or all?) of their high quality politicians like Bill English, Amy Adams, Nicky Kay, ...

Once upon a time National used to have more competence under its banner, but now both big parties look pretty talent depleted to me. Anyway - this might be as well a chance for new young talent (on both sides) to shine. Roll on 2023 ...

boysy

21-09-2020, 07:18 PM

Not a good look especially just before the campaign launch.

Who knew that the government has quietly made a big change to super fund contributions? That announcement should certainly have made the news. Was there an announcement? When was the decision made? When did Minister Robertson change his mind about suspending contributions? It is only a few weeks since he said suspending was a backwards step and the fund is a smart investment.

National caught out again good to see the media following up on Brett Hudsons blatently misleading statement

End of story? Not quite. National MP Brett Hudson weighed in on Twitter in an attempt to throw the ball back to Labour, saying Labour had “quietly” reduced contributions to the Super Fund and then sprung it on National to “try a gotcha”.

Labour criticises our idea to temporarily halt contributions to Super Fund, then quietly reduce contributions to save some money. When we miss that they try a gotcha. Remarkable how spooked they are by our tax policy that they’d expose their own hypocrisy to highlight an error https://t.co/14YtgL0bYF
— Brett Hudson (@bhudson_nz) September 20, 2020

This is not the case.

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/election-2020-the-whole-truth/#/1193272450/labour-did-not-cause-national-s-4-billion-mistake

boysy

21-09-2020, 07:27 PM

And it seems the back bench twit MP still has not deleted his tweet which has been proven to be wrong ... though at 36 on the list i think he will be unemployed in a few weeks

Blue Skies

21-09-2020, 09:06 PM

It gets worse, after Collins reassuring all, there were no more mistakes in National's proposed budget & everything had been double checked by Goldie, another mistake has been found.
Collins will be furious, credibility shot.
Not good enough from an auditioning Minister of Finance, totally incompetent. (This is his 4th finance mistake ).

National need to find another finance spokesperson quickly. But who?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/nz-election-2020-national-s-4-billion-fiscal-hole-has-gotten-even-bigger.html

Balance

21-09-2020, 09:15 PM

boysy

21-09-2020, 10:01 PM

What about the $4b fat finger mistake yesterday balance or is a slip up that monumental ok for the blue crew to make ?

Balance

21-09-2020, 10:24 PM

What about the $4b fat finger mistake yesterday balance or is a slip up that monumental ok for the blue crew to make ?

Goldsmith himself has already admitted his mistake.

Flogging a dead horse.

FYI - Kiwibuild is out by $8 billion.

Blue Skies

21-09-2020, 11:58 PM

Pathetic - $88m difference out of $18.63 billion, basically a rounding difference played up as something monumental.

Try Kiwibuld - less than 400 built out of 18,000 promised!

Yes perfectly understandable, as Goldsmith clumsily pleaded, "the PREFU is a big document with lots of figures!" and "no ones perfect."

There's lots of figures, too many figures, fewer numbers would be easier, much less numbers better, and fewer pages too!

Where's your sense of humour, it's almost too funny to be true.

Can imagine how impressed John Key & Bill English are.
This is the 4th mistake he's admitted to so far, miss costed National's Tourism policy, miss costed the Greens tax policy, miss costed National's own budget twice.
I don't think accounting & finance is his strength.
But who else to replace him in National, cause I'm having difficulty thinking of anyone.

iceman

22-09-2020, 05:49 AM

Yes perfectly understandable, as Goldsmith clumsily pleaded, "the PREFU is a big document with lots of figures!" and "no ones perfect."

There's lots of figures, too many figures, fewer numbers would be easier, much less numbers better, and fewer pages too!

Where's your sense of humour, it's almost too funny to be true.

Can imagine how impressed John Key & Bill English are.
This is the 4th mistake he's admitted to so far, miss costed National's Tourism policy, miss costed the Greens tax policy, miss costed National's own budget twice.
I don't think accounting & finance is his strength.
But who else to replace him in National, cause I'm having difficulty thinking of anyone.

It was a mistake that should not have happened. No question about that and Goldsmith did and should accept responsibility for it.
But it also makes one question how the Budget forecasts in May can already be out by BILLIONS of dollars, even on things like Cullen Fund contributions. Is there anything in the Budget going to be even close to reality ?

But what about looking at the failed plans and forecasts from Labour (see attachment) ? They are real !

dobby41

22-09-2020, 08:10 AM

National caught out again good to see the media following up on Brett Hudsons blatently misleading statement

This is not the case.

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/election-2020-the-whole-truth/#/1193272450/labour-did-not-cause-national-s-4-billion-mistake

Someone needs to tell the media.
Barry Soper and Heather dPA still harping on that Labour changed the contributions.

dobby41

22-09-2020, 08:14 AM

Yes perfectly understandable, as Goldsmith clumsily pleaded, "the PREFU is a big document with lots of figures!" and "no ones perfect."

There's lots of figures, too many figures, fewer numbers would be easier, much less numbers better, and fewer pages too!

Where's your sense of humour, it's almost too funny to be true.

Can imagine how impressed John Key & Bill English are.
This is the 4th mistake he's admitted to so far, miss costed National's Tourism policy, miss costed the Greens tax policy, miss costed National's own budget twice.
I don't think accounting & finance is his strength.
But who else to replace him in National, cause I'm having difficulty thinking of anyone.

Could you trust this guy to run the countries finances.
They waited for PREFU to get the latest numbers and were so excited he didn't read them.

dobby41

22-09-2020, 08:17 AM

Pathetic - $88m difference out of $18.63 billion, basically a rounding difference played up as something monumental.!

If you are going to do it do it right.
The man is a waste of space.
Last election we had National and their big fiscal hole that didn't exist.
They should invest in a new abacus.

Balance

22-09-2020, 08:23 AM

If you are going to do it do it right.
The man is a waste of space.
Last election we had National and their big fiscal hole that didn't exist.
They should invest in a new abacus.

You mean like Kiwibuild?

Blow the numbers out by a staggering 97% and it's all okay because the budget can be reset?

Take the beams out of your eyes, dobby41 before you comment about the speck of dust in your brother's eyes.

tim23

22-09-2020, 06:12 PM

You mean like Kiwibuild?

Blow the numbers out by a staggering 97% and it's all okay because the budget can be reset?

Take the beams out of your eyes, dobby41 before you comment about the speck of dust in your brother's eyes.

Checked tonights opinion poll old Chap?

Balance

22-09-2020, 06:23 PM

Checked tonights opinion poll old Chap?

Governing and making decisions based upon polls and maintaining popularity = sure way to ruin a country. Venezuela is an excellent example.

Panda-NZ-

22-09-2020, 06:48 PM

Explains their tax cut policy then. It seems there's an $8b fiscal hole in the nat costings now.

tim23

23-09-2020, 06:30 PM

Governing and making decisions based upon polls and maintaining popularity = sure way to ruin a country. Venezuela is an excellent example.

Answer the question old fella.

Balance

23-09-2020, 07:16 PM

Answer the question old fella.

What question, grasshopper?

Kiwibuild?

tim23

23-09-2020, 07:48 PM

What question, grasshopper?

Kiwibuild?

I suppose evading the poll question is better than you mentioning Hitler again, I suppose at your aged its to be expected old chap.

Balance

23-09-2020, 08:01 PM

I suppose evading the poll question is better than you mentioning Hitler again, I suppose at your aged its to be expected old chap.

No sweat grasshopper. When I get my super, I will happily shout you a super flash meal as you will be contributing hopefully to it. 🤣

Kiwibuild?

Panda-NZ-

23-09-2020, 08:05 PM

Kiwibuild?

3 leaders in six months? Maybe a fourth on the way with the poor polling.

tim23

23-09-2020, 08:22 PM

No sweat grasshopper. When I get my super, I will happily shout you a super flash meal as you will be contributing hopefully to it. ��

Kiwibuild?

I reckon you're probably on the super now old fella

Balance

23-09-2020, 08:41 PM

I reckon you're probably on the super now old fella

$10,000 bet?

Or you can make it $100,000 if you like.

Let’s see whether you are man or mouse or grasshopper? 😊💃🏻🕺

Balance

24-09-2020, 08:13 AM

$10,000 bet?

Or you can make it $100,000 if you like.

Let’s see whether you are man or mouse or grasshopper? 😊💃🏻🕺

Come on, tim23 - giving you a chance to back up your assertion and triple your net wealth.

As your Cindy says, let’s do this - $10k, $100k or I will bet you the value of your house if you like.

BTW - I love playing poker.

dobby41

24-09-2020, 08:14 AM

$10,000 bet?

Or you can make it $100,000 if you like.

Let’s see whether you are man or mouse or grasshopper? ��

Not adding anything useful to the debate.
Maybe you guys could stop the pissing contest and get on with the useful debate?

Balance

24-09-2020, 08:22 AM

Not adding anything useful to the debate.
Maybe you guys could stop the pissing contest and get on with the useful debate?

Stay out, dobby41 - your Labourite mate tim23 is on the rack and clearly pissing into his beer. Let’s see if the nobody fronts up.

dobby41

24-09-2020, 08:29 AM

Stay out, dobby41 - your Labourite mate tim23 is on the rack and clearly pissing into his beer. Let’s see if the nobody fronts up.

Get a grip and get back to the subject - try and get some balance

Balance

24-09-2020, 08:39 AM

Get a grip and get back to the subject - try and get some balance

Back off, dobby41- you are not helping your Labourite mate tim23 with your pathetic Cindy inspired attempt at deflection.

I am not like you & your loser lot - I assert and am prepared to back it up.

I am calling tim23 out and giving him a chance to get richer - this is no idle bet from me. Real bet with real money for tim23 to make or lose.

BlackPeter

24-09-2020, 08:47 AM

3 leaders in six months? Maybe a fourth on the way with the poor polling.

To be fair ... while I don't particularly like Judith, she exceeded my expectations in the recent leaders debate (and I mean that positive). I don't think what National has left as a team is good enough, but Judith might well be the best from the remaining National MP's to run the party (to be fair - I don't know them all :) ).

National will need after the elections somebody tidying up a run down party. They need to get rid of a culture of dirty politics (a' la Michelle Boag), incompetent recruitment practises (the incompetence of the recruiters / candidate selectors picking people like Jami-Lee Ross, Hamish Walker or Andrew Falloon into MP positions is mindboggling - in all these cases they must have ignored battle fields full of red flags) and lots of other filth as well (there are many other candidate selections surrounded by question marks - Auckland central anyone?).

National will need as well to reopen their ranks for the liberals they recently got rid off. No party is able to win under MMP the elections without embracing the middle ground. This is not FPP, where a minority (like e.g. in the US) is able to harass and control the country by governing against the will of the majority of the voters.

I think the crusher might well be able to clean out the Augeas stable which National turned into. New Zealand needs a strong centre right party, and Judith Collins might well be the best person to rebuild it. Not sure I expect to see a new National leader soon. Give Judith three or six years to rebuild the party and then she can do an Andrew Little and free up the space for the next New Zealand Prime Minister.

dobby41

24-09-2020, 09:44 AM

Back off, dobby41- you are not helping your Labourite mate tim23 with your pathetic Cindy inspired attempt at deflection.

I am not like you & your loser lot - I assert and am prepared to back it up.

I am calling tim23 out and giving him a chance to get richer - this is no idle bet from me. Real bet with real money for tim23 to make or lose.

Wow - you really have lost it.
You know this isn't good for your mental health.

westerly

24-09-2020, 09:44 AM

$10,000 bet?

Or you can make it $100,000 if you like.

Let’s see whether you are man or mouse or grasshopper? 😊💃🏻🕺

Why would anyone bet against someone who has inside information?

But bray on.

westerly

Balance

24-09-2020, 10:23 AM

Wow - you really have lost it.
You know this isn't good for your mental health.

Calling out tim23 is giving me great satisfaction.

And seeing the likes of you and westerly (birds of feather) attempting to deflect from tim23's cowardly silence to a bet to call him out gives me more satisfaction.:t_up:

So typical of you lot - ganging together and trying to spin your way out of mistruths and outright lies.

So don't you worry about me but worry for your children and your children's children future under Cindy.

dobby41

24-09-2020, 10:48 AM

Calling out tim23 is giving me great satisfaction.

That is very telling and sad for you.
Some people live such narrow lives where calling someone out on social media is the highlight of their day.
You need some therapy I think.

artemis

24-09-2020, 10:49 AM

That is very telling and sad for you.
Some people live such narrow lives where calling someone out on social media is the highlight of their day.
You need some therapy I think.

Is that irony?

dobby41

24-09-2020, 10:50 AM

What do people think of National's Border Policy?
Seems that they want to privatise the border isolation. They'll make some rules and standards and then let people go at it.
Sounds great on paper but what happens when the inevitable happens - the virus leaks from a facility?
Who get the blame, and bill, for having to lock down a city?

Balance

24-09-2020, 11:03 AM

That is very telling and sad for you.
Some people live such narrow lives where calling someone out on social media is the highlight of their day.
You need some therapy I think.

Liars and shysters need therapy - suggest you contact tim23 and offer him help. You too.

Very very very satisfying. :D:D:D

fungus pudding

24-09-2020, 11:44 AM

dobby41

24-09-2020, 12:14 PM

I think it's an excellent scheme. If it 'sounds great on paper' - that's 'cos it is. The trick it to implement it in a way that works.

So when it leaks, and it will, how pays the cost?
The private outfit says 'oops, sorry' and the Govt (us) still pay the cost?

Brownlee, when asked about the scheme, kept harping on that the current scheme was already private. He seemed to imply there was little change but there was a big, game changing, change.

RupertBear

24-09-2020, 12:24 PM

Liars and shysters need therapy - suggest you contact tim23 and offer him help. You too.

Very very very satisfying. :D:D:D

WOW getting satisfaction out of bullying someone for his off the cuff comment! Sick! Tim23 comes across as a pretty decent chap to me, you on the other hand come across as a complete jerk. I hope Tim23 puts you on ignore where you belong.

Balance

24-09-2020, 12:26 PM

WOW getting satisfaction out of bullying someone for his off the cuff comment! Sick! Tim23 comes across as a pretty decent chap to me, you on the other hand come across as a complete jerk. I hope Tim23 puts you on ignore where you belong.

Off the cuff? On the contrary, RB but your comments are to be expected - birds of a feather flock together.

blackcap

24-09-2020, 12:26 PM

So when it leaks, and it will, how pays the cost?
The private outfit says 'oops, sorry' and the Govt (us) still pay the cost?

Brownlee, when asked about the scheme, kept harping on that the current scheme was already private. He seemed to imply there was little change but there was a big, game changing, change.

Just like when the current "govt" scheme leaks who pays? Yeah the government. So its a great idea. Build in some KPI's with targets. If it leaks there are penalties. That should deter leaks. Unlike the current government run scheme when there are leaks there are no penalties and no one is held to account.

Just like corrections really. Serco was held to account and the media were all over their indiscretions but when the same sort of stuff happens at Rimutaka or a govt run premise... crickets.

RupertBear

24-09-2020, 12:39 PM

Off the cuff? On the contrary, RB but your comments are to be expected - birds of a feather flock together.

Not sure why you lump me into the birds of a feather category for calling out your bullying behaviour :confused: You know NOTHING about me, we on the other hand have a pretty good idea of the kind of person you are and its not kind

Balance

24-09-2020, 12:50 PM

Not sure why you lump me into the birds of a feather category for calling out your bullying behaviour :confused: You know NOTHING about me, we on the other hand have a pretty good idea of the kind of person you are and its not kind

Tim23 made repeated comments which I am happy to call him out on with a bet. The rest of you Labourites gang up and attempt as per usual to deflect and spin your way out - 'Birds of a Feather'.

Where's the bullying? Calling somebody out with a bet is bullying?

You should be encouraging him to be a man, take the bet or apologize. It's that simple, RB - but like Cindy, who is back to wearing the hijab today to support the oppression of Muslim women in certain countries, it's all spin, bluff and bluster with you lot.

dobby41

24-09-2020, 01:14 PM

Just like when the current "govt" scheme leaks who pays? Yeah the government. So its a great idea. Build in some KPI's with targets. If it leaks there are penalties. That should deter leaks. Unlike the current government run scheme when there are leaks there are no penalties and no one is held to account.

Just like corrections really. Serco was held to account and the media were all over their indiscretions but when the same sort of stuff happens at Rimutaka or a govt run premise... crickets.

So if the Govt screws up they (we) pay.
If private enterprise screws up the Govt (we) pay.
I can imagine some lodge getting, and paying, a multi $100mil bill for a lockdown - not!
Serco is a good example - set all the standards you like but issues still happen.
The impact of an issue at the prison is quite different to an Isolation issue.

artemis

24-09-2020, 02:26 PM

Panda-NZ-

24-09-2020, 03:38 PM

Tim23 made repeated comments which I am happy to call him out on with a bet. The rest of you Labourites gang up and attempt as per usual to deflect and spin your way out - 'Birds of a Feather'.

Where's the bullying? Calling somebody out with a bet is bullying?

You should be encouraging him to be a man, take the bet or apologize. It's that simple, RB - but like Cindy, who is back to wearing the hijab today to support the oppression of Muslim women in certain countries, it's all spin, bluff and bluster with you lot.

Considering your last stance(s) on mental health when the lockdowns were announced , you should have more respect and allow people to have good mental health when reading your posts rather than berating them and using cheap terms like "cindy" and "team of incompetents".

repeating something doesn't make something any more useful or truthful.

fungus pudding

24-09-2020, 04:13 PM

Considering your last stance(s) on mental health when the lockdowns were announced , you should have more respect and allow people to have good mental health when reading your posts rather than berating them and using cheap terms like "cindy" and "team of incompetents".

repeating something doesn't make something any more useful or truthful.

What makes Cindy a cheap name?
Looking back through previous P.Ms you'll find John for Johnathon.
Bill for William.
Jenny for Jennifer.
Jim for James
Mike for Michael.
Rob for Robert,
and the inexplicable one, Bill for Wallace.
So Cindy can't be too far off, although I believe she is better known as Cinda

westerly

24-09-2020, 05:12 PM

Tim23 made repeated comments which I am happy to call him out on with a bet. The rest of you Labourites gang up and attempt as per usual to deflect and spin your way out - 'Birds of a Feather'.

Where's the bullying? Calling somebody out with a bet is bullying?

You should be encouraging him to be a man, take the bet or apologize. It's that simple, RB - but like Cindy, who is back to wearing the hijab today to support the oppression of Muslim women in certain countries, it's all spin, bluff and bluster with you lot.

It is OK to call someone "grasshopper" but not to reply calling you "old man" ? You are showing your sensitive side.

westerly

moka

24-09-2020, 09:16 PM

The term bullying is like the term racist these days. Both are formed in the eye and opinion of the speaker. Designed not to inform or educate but to shut down the person on the receiving end. So prevalent now that the term cancel culture has been coined and is gaining currency fast.

Heh, I just googled it 5.5 million hits. Tell me that doesn't indicate something.
Debate and discussion is healthy, but so much of the comments here are just name-calling and attacking the person and not discussing the actual issues. And I call that bullying, and that should be shut down. It would be great if you could discuss the issues and not put down people. There is not much on these election threads that is informative. As for being racist, I think it is not whether you are racist or not but how racist, because racism in an unconscious bias.

porkandpuha

24-09-2020, 09:58 PM

Who get the blame, and bill, for having to lock down a city?

What does it matter to you? The absolute worst case scenario and the one you seem to be horrified at facing, is the model that is already being implemented by the current government. We all got the bill. And cabinet refused to take or place blame.

Balance

24-09-2020, 10:24 PM

It is OK to call someone "grasshopper" but not to reply calling you "old man" ? You are showing your sensitive side.

westerly

People can call me what they like - I have been called worse here on ST (refer NZOG, PEB, Pike River, Snakk & Plus SMS but to name a few). Call me great grandfather for all I care 😊

But if someone like tim23 wants to challenge me time & again after I have gently refuted his assertion, I reserve the right to call him out - my prerogative.

He has the right to refute my assertion of him as a grasshopper - and challenge me to a bet if he do wishes.

In any case, tim23 has been in hiding the whole day with his pathetic tail between his shrunken balls - so let’s leave him to whimper in the corner.

RupertBear

24-09-2020, 11:10 PM

People can call me what they like - I have been called worse here on ST (refer NZOG, PEB, Pike River, Snakk & Plus SMS but to make a few). Call me great grandfather for all I care 

But if someone like tim23 wants to challenge me time & again after I have gently refuted his assertion, I reserve the right to call him out - my prerogative.

He has the right to refute my assertion of him as a grasshopper - and challenge me to a bet if he do wishes.

In any case, tim23 has been in hiding the whole day with his pathetic tail between his shrunken balls - so let’s leave him to whimper in the corner.

What an obnoxious comment. It is beyond me why you dont get banned for your personal abuse.

And what makes you so sure tim23 is male?

Balance

25-09-2020, 06:47 AM

What an obnoxious comment. It is beyond me why you dont get banned for your personal abuse.

And what makes you so sure tim23 is male?

Chill, RB.

Ever heard the term ‘metaphorically speaking’?

artemis

25-09-2020, 07:08 AM

Debate and discussion is healthy, but so much of the comments here are just name-calling and attacking the person and not discussing the actual issues. And I call that bullying, and that should be shut down. It would be great if you could discuss the issues and not put down people. There is not much on these election threads that is informative. As for being racist, I think it is not whether you are racist or not but how racist, because racism in an unconscious bias.

Shutting down? Where does that end? If posts fall foul of blog rules then mods can take action. Political threads are routinely robust, especially in an election campaign.

Don't like it, don't read it, don't respond. It's not mandatory.

blackcap

25-09-2020, 07:11 AM

Shutting down? Where does that end? If posts fall foul of blog rules then mods can take action. Political threads are routinely robust, especially in an election campaign.

Don't like it, don't read it, don't respond. It's not mandatory.

Well said Artemis. When posters and others in society start using the term "shutting down" I get very afraid. Very often it does not mean shut down "all bad speech" but generally speech or other events they do not like. One's they do like that are also hateful they do not seem to want to shut down.
It's a political debate, but even if not, lets be for robust discussion with a bit of name calling if you like. Don't like it, go cry a river somewhere.

iceman

25-09-2020, 08:02 AM

Well said Artemis. When posters and others in society start using the term "shutting down" I get very afraid. Very often it does not mean shut down "all bad speech" but generally speech or other events they do not like. One's they do like that are also hateful they do not seem to want to shut down.
It's a political debate, but even if not, lets be for robust discussion with a bit of name calling if you like. Don't like it, go cry a river somewhere.

Not surprising though. Andrew Little can not wait to get rid of Winston so he can further restrict free speech, now he wants to ban what he calls hate speech against religion, the gay community and who knows what. He is a dangerous man.

dobby41

25-09-2020, 08:10 AM

What does it matter to you? The absolute worst case scenario and the one you seem to be horrified at facing, is the model that is already being implemented by the current government. We all got the bill. And cabinet refused to take or place blame.

Of course it matters to me - I (the tax payer) pay the bill, along with the affected businesses.
The model, as it is now, works well - modified by need and learning.
The example of Serco in the prisons was given - prisons worked well but Serco, for all the 'standards' they had, managed to botch that.
Private enterprise has a primary driver - money. You don't see a conflict of interest?

Balance

25-09-2020, 08:12 AM

Not surprising though. Andrew Little can not wait to get rid of Winston so he can further restrict free speech, now he wants to ban what he calls hate speech against religion, the gay community and who knows what. He is a dangerous man.

To be expected out of the Pike River disaster Union leader - first he contributed to the disaster, then he pretends he really cares for the victims and throws unlimited amounts of funding to 'bring the boys' home and then, he sobs that it 'may' not be possible.

dobby41

25-09-2020, 08:13 AM

dobby41

25-09-2020, 08:14 AM

What makes Cindy a cheap name?
Looking back through previous P.Ms you'll find John for Johnathon.
Bill for William.
Jenny for Jennifer.
Jim for James
Mike for Michael.
Rob for Robert,
and the inexplicable one, Bill for Wallace.
So Cindy can't be too far off, although I believe she is better known as Cinda

All names those people wanted to be called - that's the difference.

blackcap

25-09-2020, 08:18 AM

The Mosque shooter was using free speech well with his manifesto (not).

I read that manifesto. There was nothing in there that would even give a censor cause for concern. Maybe a PG rating, but there was no call to kill or anything like that. That leftist manifesto would pass most "hate speech" laws that are passed to this day.
There is plenty more turgid stuff freely available on the internet right now that is a lot worse.

Balance

25-09-2020, 08:19 AM

All names those people wanted to be called - that's the difference.

Cindy suits her so well though - all fluff and no substance.

Think she will be wearing the hijab today?

fungus pudding

25-09-2020, 09:25 AM

All names those people wanted to be called - that's the difference.

You don't know what they wanted to be called. Do you not remember Jim Bolger moaning because he wanted to be called James?

dobby41

25-09-2020, 10:16 AM

You don't know what they wanted to be called. Do you not remember Jim Bolger moaning because he wanted to be called James?

No I don't recall that.
If that is true then he should have been called James and it is disrespectful to call him Jim.
Of course, calling him Jimmy as a put down would be even worse.

dobby41

25-09-2020, 02:36 PM

An interesting debate.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/426885/election-2020-paul-goldsmith-and-grant-robertson-go-head-to-head-in-finance-debate
Paul lacks credibility and experience.

Balance

26-09-2020, 10:36 AM

An interesting debate.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/426885/election-2020-paul-goldsmith-and-grant-robertson-go-head-to-head-in-finance-debate
Paul lacks credibility and experience.

And Grant Robertson knows only one thing - tax, borrow and spend.

BlackPeter

26-09-2020, 11:19 AM

And Grant Robertson knows only one thing - tax, borrow and spend.

When I went to school these still would have been three things :p;

Raz

26-09-2020, 12:48 PM

moka

27-09-2020, 11:50 PM

Shutting down? Where does that end? If posts fall foul of blog rules then mods can take action. Political threads are routinely robust, especially in an election campaign.

Don't like it, don't read it, don't respond. It's not mandatory.I said bullying should be shut down, not discussion and political debate. Bullying is not okay. You call it robust, I call it bullying when there is name-calling and the person is attacked rather than discussing the issue.

moka

28-09-2020, 12:12 AM

Not surprising though. Andrew Little can not wait to get rid of Winston so he can further restrict free speech, now he wants to ban what he calls hate speech against religion, the gay community and who knows what. He is a dangerous man.

This is not a discussion about the issues of free speech and hate speech. It is an attack against Andrew Little, who you say is a dangerous man.

It could be stated neutrally as Andrew Little wants to further restrict free speech and ban hate speech. And then there could be a discussion about whether or why that is dangerous.

moka

28-09-2020, 12:48 AM

To be expected out of the Pike River disaster Union leader - first he contributed to the disaster, then he pretends he really cares for the victims and throws unlimited amounts of funding to 'bring the boys' home and then, he sobs that it 'may' not be possible.And another comment that puts Andrew Little down and undermines his credibility, one that is intended to create prejudice. To put it simply Andrew Little is a bad person, and we shouldn’t trust him. Why? We don’t need to say why because we all know why.........

Is this hate speech?
The term hate speech is understood as any kind of communication in speech, writing or behaviour, that attacks or uses pejorative or discriminatory language with reference to a person or a group on the basis of who they are, in other words, based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality ...

moka

28-09-2020, 12:56 AM

I read that manifesto. There was nothing in there that would even give a censor cause for concern. Maybe a PG rating, but there was no call to kill or anything like that. That leftist manifesto would pass most "hate speech" laws that are passed to this day.
There is plenty more turgid stuff freely available on the internet right now that is a lot worse.
The Chief Censor disagrees withh you as he did ban the manifesto.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/24/censor-bans-manifesto-of-christchurch-mosque-shooter
New Zealand’s chief censor has banned a document shared by the man allegedly responsible for killing 50 people in two Christchurch mosques.
David Shanks, the chief censor, officially classed the so-called manifesto as “objectionable” and told anyone in possession of it to destroy it.
“There is an important distinction to be made between ‘hate speech,’ which may be rejected by many right-thinking people, but which is legal to express, and this type of publication, which is deliberately constructed to inspire further murder and terrorism,” Shanks said in making his decision.
He said the document “crosses the line” by promoting, encouraging and justifying acts of murder and terrorist violence against identified groups of people.

moka

28-09-2020, 01:07 AM

Cindy suits her so well though - all fluff and no substance.

Think she will be wearing the hijab today?
Another personal attack with no substance. What don't you like? Who she is - a woman prime minister, the leader of the wrong party which never should have been running the country, which usurped the leadership from the rightful holders i.e. the National Party?

dobby41

28-09-2020, 10:12 AM

And Grant Robertson knows only one thing - tax, borrow and spend.

You do realise that Goldsmith and Collins are doing the same - they just can't get their numbers right. Embarrassing for them when they keep saying that they are good at this.

blackcap

28-09-2020, 10:37 AM

The Chief Censor disagrees withh you as he did ban the manifesto.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/24/censor-bans-manifesto-of-christchurch-mosque-shooter
New Zealand’s chief censor has banned a document shared by the man allegedly responsible for killing 50 people in two Christchurch mosques.
David Shanks, the chief censor, officially classed the so-called manifesto as “objectionable” and told anyone in possession of it to destroy it.
“There is an important distinction to be made between ‘hate speech,’ which may be rejected by many right-thinking people, but which is legal to express, and this type of publication, which is deliberately constructed to inspire further murder and terrorism,” Shanks said in making his decision.
He said the document “crosses the line” by promoting, encouraging and justifying acts of murder and terrorist violence against identified groups of people.

I don't give a flying fcuk that the Chief Censor disagrees with me. This was banned for political reasons, not the actual content of the manifesto. If you ever get a chance to read it (obviously not when in NZ) and you will see what I mean.

dobby41

28-09-2020, 12:11 PM

Balance

28-09-2020, 01:57 PM

Meanwhile National's polling doesn't get better.
Well, it does get better than the 'rogue' poll but not nearly good enough.
On current polling Goldsmith wouldn't be back - maybe a good thing, they could replace him with someone who can add.

You mean like with Twyford who obviously can add according to you then but could not even deliver 5% of the Kiwibuild homes promised?

And that's after planning and budgeting since 2012 and he can be out by 95%!

Now that is the Mother of all budget screw ups & blow-outs!

And Twyford is still #4 on Cindy's ranking and Kiwibuild was one of Cindy’s main Electoral planks & big promises in the 2017 election too!

Great team Cindy has got!

iceman

29-09-2020, 09:30 AM

This is not a discussion about the issues of free speech and hate speech. It is an attack against Andrew Little, who you say is a dangerous man.

It could be stated neutrally as Andrew Little wants to further restrict free speech and ban hate speech. And then there could be a discussion about whether or why that is dangerous.

Are you serious ? Clearly you are in the Little camp that wants to change the law to restrict everyone speaking out that has a different view to themselves. We have perfectly good laws already and no need to change them further to limit free speech. Andrew Little is hellbent on pushing this through and is a danger to free speech.

BlackPeter

29-09-2020, 10:35 AM

Are you serious ? Clearly you are in the Little camp that wants to change the law to restrict everyone speaking out that has a different view to themselves. We have perfectly good laws already and no need to change them further to limit free speech. Andrew Little is hellbent on pushing this through and is a danger to free speech.

Well, I am not in the Little camp ... and I haven't even seen the recent proposals (I assume there are some, are they?). However - free speech without limitations is more dangerous than any weapon of mass destruction. A nuclear bomb kills maybe some hundred thousands, the free speech used by hate preachers, racists, pick you color supremacists and conspiracy theorists can (and sometimes does) kill millions and can create wide spread misery for centuries or millennia (just look at what most of the big religions did to humanity and its continuous conflicts). People still kill in the name of Mohammad or Jesus or whoever else - despite these people being dead for more than one millenium. Hitler did (to the best of my knowledge) not kill a single jew personally - however his words killed many millions.

Unimpeded free speech is a dangerous thing. Now, obviously I realise that there are already restrictions (and I feel comfortable with them in a democratic society), but a discussion on this subject is clearly legitimate and not a justification to put people down just because you don't like their views.

People spreading hate are dangerous and inciting violence. Other people die because of this "free speech".
Antivaxxers spreading their lies are dangerous and their message does kill innocent people (mainly children).
Racists spreading their fear and stupidity are dangerous - and inflaming conflicts and generating genocides.
A president dividing his people is dangerous and destroying the base his people need to thrive long term.
So many other examples ....

I think that a people as well as humanity are better off if they do have some sensible rules how to use our most dangerous weapon - the word.

Of cause - no free speech at all is as bad as all free speech, but you do need some sort of golden middle in between. Discussing where this optimum is should be sensible and allowed.

BTW - I do see some irony in a promotor of free speech calling somebody who is using this right of free speech to propose some limitations "a dangerous man". Don't you?

dobby41

30-09-2020, 06:25 PM

You do realise that Goldsmith and Collins are doing the same - they just can't get their numbers right. Embarrassing for them when they keep saying that they are good at this.

Now it seems that the tax cut won't be as good as it seems.
They based it on an 'average' earner of $64k but the median is really $55k giving only $1800 not the $3k
Further, the article says
Ms Honey recommended using the latest Household Economic Survey data which showed the average income for all those aged 15 and over was $47,048 and the median income was $33,280.
Using this measure, both those on the average and the median income would receive $560 under National's tax cuts.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/election-2020-national-overstated-benefit-of-tax-cut-plan-for-average-earners.html

National seriously need to learn how numbers work. I hope this is a mistake rather than then trying to hoodwink the electors.

artemis

30-09-2020, 07:01 PM

Now it seems that the tax cut won't be as good as it seems.
They based it on an 'average' earner of $64k but the median is really $55k giving only $1800 not the $3k .....

National seriously need to learn how numbers work. I hope this is a mistake rather than then trying to hoodwink the electors.

So how does it work out using the latest Quarterly Employment Survey - average FTE weekly earnings seasonally adjusted? Produced by Stats NZ and that National used.

There may indeed be other measures and combinations that produce different results, and certainly there are dozens of options. But that does not mean people are hoodwinked. It just means there are different bases on which to calculate results.

In addition, the tax cut measure announced does not include government (taxpayer) transfers. They may or may not be taxable but they certainly bump up income in many households.

tim23

30-09-2020, 08:39 PM

You mean like with Twyford who obviously can add according to you then but could not even deliver 5% of the Kiwibuild homes promised?

And that's after planning and budgeting since 2012 and he can be out by 95%!

Now that is the Mother of all budget screw ups & blow-outs!

And Twyford is still #4 on Cindy's ranking and Kiwibuild was one of Cindy’s main Electoral planks & big promises in the 2017 election too!

Great team Cindy has got!

Hey silly - Twyford is Labour - Goldsmith is National so you can't trade your loser for Twyford

tim23

30-09-2020, 08:46 PM

Come on, tim23 - giving you a chance to back up your assertion and triple your net wealth.

As your Cindy says, let’s do this - $10k, $100k or I will bet you the value of your house if you like.

BTW - I love playing poker.

How would you have an idea about my net worth you old fool - stick to what you know like Hoskings big toe.

Balance

30-09-2020, 08:54 PM

How would you have an idea about my net worth you old fool - stick to what you know like Hoskings big toe.

Out comes loser tim23. Makes an assertion and does not even have $10k to back up his shrunken pair.

Go suck on the bottle, minor league loser.🤣

Go home to your mummy.

Balance

30-09-2020, 09:17 PM

Lol

Asked whether Twyford was an asset or a liability, Ardern said he was in her Cabinet so an asset while Collins said "well he's my asset" - speaking about her former rival.

Baa_Baa

30-09-2020, 09:22 PM

Out comes loser tim23. Makes an assertion and does not even have $10k to back up his balls.

Go suck on the bottle, minor league loser.🤣

Go home to your mummy.

Really unnecessary, your propensity to reduce debate to a bet is only reflecting on your inability to sustain a debate.

You’re the loser balance, you have no ability to debate rationally without demeaning your argument with trivial nonsense.

Not that you have the aptitude or propensity to realise that. You are our Trump.

Balance

30-09-2020, 09:29 PM

Really unnecessary, your propensity to reduce debate to a bet is only reflecting on your inability to sustain a debate.

You’re the loser balance, you have no ability to debate rationally without demeaning your argument with trivial nonsense.

Not that you have the aptitude or propensity to realise that. You are our Trump.

Yawn. Do you even know what the bet is?

The 4 legs good, 2 legs better brigade herd up again - only know how to spend other people’s money.

Unlike you losers, I back up my assertion with substance and if necessary, my $$$. Can’t help it if you lot are all talk and zero substance.

boysy

30-09-2020, 09:42 PM

Ironic he is so anti trump but acts like a bully on this thread.

Balance

30-09-2020, 10:21 PM

Ironic he is so anti trump but acts like a bully on this thread.

Another of the ‘4 legs good, 2 legs better’ brigade joins the fray - without the foggiest idea what the bet with tim23 is.

Pathetic.

dln

30-09-2020, 11:00 PM

Out comes loser tim23. Makes an assertion and does not even have $10k to back up his shrunken pair.

Go suck on the bottle, minor league loser.藍

Go home to your mummy.
Twat.

It's hard to tell which childhood you seem to be stuck in.

Balance

30-09-2020, 11:08 PM

Twat.

It's hard to tell which childhood you seem to be stuck in.

Come one, come all - you want to take tim23’s place?

You man or mouse?

Raz

01-10-2020, 02:24 AM

Come one, come all - you want to take tim23’s place?

You man or mouse?

At least he is not sick Balance.

Balance

01-10-2020, 06:53 AM

At least he is not sick Balance.

And nobody can be as sick and despicable as a Trump supporter which you are - Raz.

A supporter of the WH Fornicator has no place in any plural civil society - so stay where you are and keep your brown nosing of the Fornicator there.

blackcap

01-10-2020, 07:13 AM

And nobody can be as sick and despicable as a Trump supporter which you are - Raz.

A supporter of the WH Fornicator has no place in any plural civil society - so stay where you are and keep your brown nosing of the Fornicator there.

Tell that to the 63 million people that voted for Trump last election. I too would vote Trump this election if I were in the US. Does not mean that I am a Trump supporter though. It means I like the calibre of conservatives he is appointing to the SC and also the majority of foreign policy he is engaging in amoungst a whole other lot of issues. I also do not like Biden or the Democrats. For me its more a case of voting for a party I least hate, rather than a party I like most.

Calling a supporter of any political party or party leader sick is quite twisted. I have a good mate, he is a rabid greenie, I hate his politics. But I do not think he is sick.

Balance

01-10-2020, 07:42 AM

Tell that to the 63 million people that voted for Trump last election. I too would vote Trump this election if I were in the US. Does not mean that I am a Trump supporter though. It means I like the calibre of conservatives he is appointing to the SC and also the majority of foreign policy he is engaging in amoungst a whole other lot of issues. I also do not like Biden or the Democrats. For me its more a case of voting for a party I least hate, rather than a party I like most.

Calling a supporter of any political party or party leader sick is quite twisted. I have a good mate, he is a rabid greenie, I hate his politics. But I do not think he is sick.

The WH Fornicator has no politics - thought you would know that by now. Lives in a TV reality world where he lies incessantly and baits race, religion, culture and gender issues for his own purposes and satisfaction.

The debate yesterday is a prime example of what kind of a demented clown is in the WH - a complete disgrace - contemptible disregard for any decency and the dignity of the office of President and election process. Fact free with nothing to offer by way of information for the electorates.

If you are okay with that, that’s for you to decide. I call it as I see it.

westerly

01-10-2020, 09:31 AM

Another of the ‘4 legs good, 2 legs better’ brigade joins the fray - without the foggiest idea what the bet with tim23 is.

Pathetic.

We don,t need to bet to know your age. 4 legged donkey, :)

westerly

Balance

01-10-2020, 10:02 AM

We don,t need to bet to know your age. 4 legged donkey, :)

westerly

Better than the sheep like you Cindy worshippers.

Very very happy. :t_up:

dobby41

01-10-2020, 10:08 AM

Balance

01-10-2020, 10:24 AM

I think you just proved his point.

Another of the ‘4 legs good 2 legs better’ Brigade decides to add weight to the rush to the cliff.

Raz

01-10-2020, 01:37 PM

Yes the attention seeking Balance just loves your attention, makes stuff on people or anything will do😊

tim23

02-10-2020, 08:10 PM

Better than the sheep like you Cindy worshippers.

Very very happy. :t_up:

Silly comment again - she has approval rating above 50% so you are in the minority old boy

Jiggs

06-10-2020, 11:19 AM

National's policy is to keep Tiwai Point running for 5 years or so, and my CEN shares were wallowing at $6.30-ish.
Then on 28 Sept Labour announced a similar policy, and my CEN shares immediately shot up to $7.07 and are still climbing. Is this an indication that sharetraders are expecting Labour to win the election?

fungus pudding

06-10-2020, 11:31 AM

dobby41

07-10-2020, 11:11 AM

National creaking under the strain.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/leak-some-in-national-say-the-writing-is-on-the-wall-they-ll-lose-the-election.html
Gerry abusing reporters, members feeling all is lost.
Judith channeling her inner bully.
Desperate Judith trying to play the christian card - WT... (She then lies that she didn't know the media pack were going to follow when her minders asked church officials if it was OK for them to do so.)
Trouble adding up.
Judiths MP hopefulls may be standing behind her but a lot of knives out to stab her in the back.
A shambles.

neopoleII

07-10-2020, 12:09 PM

""Desperate Judith trying to play the christian card""
wonder if Adern gets into the doggy style position when she prays 3 times a day with her veil?

dobby41

07-10-2020, 12:15 PM

""Desperate Judith trying to play the christian card""
wonder if Adern gets into the doggy style position when she prays 3 times a day with her veil?

Wow - that is so over the top. Is that how you really think?
For someone who wasn't happy that Vance etc allowed comments on
"fornicators, bimbos, fart perfumes etc day after day after day after week after month after"
you seem to have joined the low brigade.

PS - why 3 times a day not 5? Shows how much you can think.

BlackPeter

07-10-2020, 12:20 PM

""Desperate Judith trying to play the christian card""
wonder if Adern gets into the doggy style position when she prays 3 times a day with her veil?

Very nasty statement. You are not just degrading one of the world's big religions for no good reason, you are as well spreading fake news.

Adern is not Muslim, but she did wear a handful of times a headscarf (as sign of respect for the muslim community).

Many Christian nuns are wearing a headscarf as well. Are you degrading them as well for praying?

artemis

07-10-2020, 12:56 PM

Taking aim at someone's private devotions is quite astonishing. Spin that anyway you like but it is crass in the extreme, especially when ascribing motivation. Unbelievable really.

Bjauck

07-10-2020, 02:29 PM

Post#1476
Perhaps it was not intended, but that short post came across as crude, ignorant, bigoted and misogynistic.

I don't understand the hang-up over scarfs/veils. Many different cultures have veils and hair scarfs.

dobby41

07-10-2020, 02:41 PM

I don't understand the hang-up over scarfs/veils. Many different cultures have veils and hair scarfs.

It's not that long ago that women in NZ wouldn't go out without a scarf on - for whatever reason.
Now it has become a banner for the ignorant.

Balance

07-10-2020, 02:53 PM

It's not that long ago that women in NZ wouldn't go out without a scarf on - for whatever reason.
Now it has become a banner for the ignorant.

When? Can't say I ever recall such a practice.

Balance

07-10-2020, 02:57 PM

Desperate Judith trying to play the christian card - WT... (She then lies that she didn't know the media pack were going to follow when her minders asked church officials if it was OK for them to do so.)

Despicable and repugnant comment.

What is wrong with anyone showing their faith openly and appealing to their Christian faith value voters?

Seems like Labourites like you are eager to shout down Christian values but will happily keep your mouth shut about hypocritical values like Cindy (courting Muslim votes) wearing the hijab to support oppression of Muslim women in Iran etc.

dobby41

07-10-2020, 03:28 PM

When? Can't say I ever recall such a practice.
Here's a history for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf
I have seen this via TV in period drama from the late 1800's.
Also Hilda Ogden on Coro St - always wore a scarf.

Despicable and repugnant comment.

What is wrong with anyone showing their faith openly and appealing to their Christian faith value voters?

Seems like Labourites like you are eager to shout down Christian values but will happily keep your mouth shut about hypocritical values like Cindy (courting Muslim votes) wearing the hijab to support oppression of Muslim women in Iran etc.

Nothing wrong with showing faith openly - as a political move it was transparent (one of her minders reportedly asked a church leader if the media could come in).
Just like she has played the Samoan card with Hubby in the 2nd debate and again last night saying Jacinda was 'disrespecting' Samoa when she called out Judith's lie.

We have had a discussion on Hijab's before and you still won't admit you were wrong.

Balance

07-10-2020, 03:49 PM

Here's a history for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf
I have seen this via TV in period drama from the late 1800's.
Also Hilda Ogden on Coro St - always wore a scarf.

It's not that long ago that women in NZ wouldn't go out without a scarf on - for whatever reason.
Now it has become a banner for the ignorant.

Not that long ago?

You mean a long time ago, right?

dobby41

07-10-2020, 03:57 PM

Not that long ago?

You mean a long time ago, right?

Subjective - whatever you want!
I do remember a lot of my Mum's friends coming around with a scarf on in the 60's.

blackcap

07-10-2020, 03:58 PM

Subjective - whatever you want!
I do remember a lot of my Mum's friends coming around with a scarf on in the 60's.

Exclusive Bretheren?

Balance

07-10-2020, 04:00 PM

Nothing wrong with showing faith openly - as a political move it was transparent (one of her minders reportedly asked a church leader if the media could come in).
Just like she has played the Samoan card with Hubby in the 2nd debate and again last night saying Jacinda was 'disrespecting' Samoa when she called out Judith's lie.

We have had a discussion on Hijab's before and you still won't admit you were wrong.

My bad - you are correct and I am only partly correct about France & Turkey banning the hijab.

macduffy

07-10-2020, 04:33 PM

Also Hilda Ogden on Coro St - always wore a scarf.

And that wasn't a good look, either!

;)

Bjauck

07-10-2020, 05:28 PM

And that wasn't a good look, either!

;)
I remember Hilda Ogden from the 80’s. Didn’t she wear curlers and a scarf?

I have seen photos from the 60’s and 70’s with lots of women wearing head scarves. Who could forget Tippi driving her Aston Martin in The Birds!

So scarves must have been reasonably popular from the glamorous to the gritty.

Balance

07-10-2020, 05:30 PM

I remember Hilda Ogden from the 80’s. Didn’t she wearing curlers and a scarf.

I have seen photos from the 60’s and 70’s with lots of women wearing head scarves. Who could forget Tippi driving her Aston Martin in The Birds!

So scarves must have been reasonably popular from the glamorous to the gritty.

Be that as it may, it was worn in Western societies for an entirely different reason than as is imposed on Muslim women in certain countries like Iran, Afghanistan and even UK.

And Cindy is aware of how repressive the hijab is as a symbol but she shamelessly and cynically wears it to court Muslim votes.

Despicable and repugnant.

dobby41

07-10-2020, 05:39 PM

I remember Hilda Ogden from the 80’s. Didn’t she wear curlers and a scarf?

She was famous for it.
Never seemed to be out of curlers.

dobby41

07-10-2020, 05:42 PM

Judith spent lots on buying FaceBook 'likes'.
Now, in Ponsonby Road, they rake supporters in to create a show.
Seems to be worried about not having enough admirers.
Media spending their time asking if she'll step down if (when) National lose.
Displays of disunity.
Bad debate performance.
Not a good couple of days for Judith - the poor wee thing.

Bjauck

07-10-2020, 05:49 PM

Be that as it may, it was worn in Western societies for an entirely different reason than as is imposed on Muslim women in certain countries like Iran, Afghanistan and even UK... Women in the West also wear scarves and veils for modesty - especially in Mediterranean Europe. There are Christian traditions for covering the hair and head.

Balance

07-10-2020, 06:06 PM

Women in the West also wear scarves and veils for modesty - especially in Mediterranean Europe. There are Christian traditions for covering the hair and head.

Were or are they forced into it on pain of death?

Bjauck

07-10-2020, 08:38 PM

Were or are they forced into it on pain of death? Can’t answer that. How customs and mores were/are enforced varies according to place and time. I am pretty sure in the medieval West death was punishment for all manner of reasons, real or fabricated. Then Europe imposed their cultural expectations around the globe. In certain periods even to the C20th, the sky was the limit and you could be murdered/gassed for failing to do or wear certain things.

Balance

08-10-2020, 08:36 AM

Can’t answer that. How customs and mores were/are enforced varies according to place and time. I am pretty sure in the medieval West death was punishment for all manner of reasons, real or fabricated. Then Europe imposed their cultural expectations around the globe. In certain periods even to the C20th, the sky was the limit and you could be murdered/gassed for failing to do or wear certain things.

Be that as it may, we know in today’s world that the hijab is a symbol of oppression in certain Muslim countries but Cindy happily and gleefully wears it to get votes - why?

Bjauck

08-10-2020, 09:52 AM

Be that as it may, we know in today’s world that the hijab is a symbol of oppression in certain Muslim countries but Cindy happily and gleefully wears it to get votes - why?...To get votes or to show solidarity with and following the customs of a terrorised groups of people in NZ?

Certainly the arranged adoring Ponsonby "locals" laying down the figurative palm fronds in front of Collins seemed to have been following a lesson from the Trump playbook.

However I agree the arranged photo ops from all sides are sometimes sickening.

Balance

08-10-2020, 09:58 AM

...To get votes or to show solidarity with and following the customs of a terrorised groups of people in NZ?

Really?

And bugger all the oppressed women in Iran, Somalia & Afghanistan who are forced on pain of severe punishment to wear the hijab?

I thought the Labourites paint their Cindy as a worldly wise, caring, kind, considerate & compassionate leader - is she not?

BlackPeter

08-10-2020, 10:08 AM

Be that as it may, we know in today’s world that the hijab is a symbol of oppression in certain Muslim countries but Cindy happily and gleefully wears it to get votes - why?

Your blind hate against Adern seems to block out any rational judgement.

Firstly, I haven't seen her wearing a hijab, just a headscarf. Different things.

The hijab is used in some autocratic muslim countries as means to oppress women - this is correct. However - many muslim women see it just as symbol of faith and empowerment, and in most countries of the world there is anyway no legal requirement for them to wear it, if they don't like it.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/111886622/the-hijab-can-be-a-symbol-of-power-and-a-tool-of-oppression

We also should not forget, that women covering their hair is not just usual in muslim countries, but it was the same thing in the Christian culture ... and still today you will see in many mediterranean countries women wearing a headscarf - and don't forget about Christian nuns. Are they as well wearing their "hijab" as symbol of the oppression through dirty old white man?

Funny you are so focussed on the oppression that you are not able to see the whole picture, isn't it?

Look - it is absolutely legitimate not to like Adern or not to support her. There are as well many legitimate reasons to question her competence and ability to deliver. While she did in my view quite well in crisis management (n.b. I said quite well, not perfect), Labor under her rule had as well a number of quite spectacular mishaps and failings - as you love to remind us. I didn't like many of the decisions of the Labor / NZ First government and they often felt short with delivering on their promises.

If you really want to support the opposition, than I propose you focus on Labors failings (Kiwibuild & Co) and at the same time give us a good and credible idea why you think a National-led government would do a better job. This way you could enrich the discussion (if you manage to cut out endless repetitions of the same argument, this is).

Adern did wear a headscarf as a symbol of respect towards a group of our population which suffered terribly under the murderous hand of some extreme rightwing nutcase, and your litanies in that regard are just tasteless ...; If anything - they will put people off from following your otherwise often (not always :) ) worthwhile posts. Sort of contra-productive if you want to achieve something with your posts, isn't it?