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dobby41
08-10-2020, 09:23 AM
I thought the Labourites paint their Cindy as a worldly wise, caring, kind, considerate & compassionate leader - is she not?

She is.
As Bjauck points out she wears a scarf - a head covering - which is very respectful in many faiths (including Christianity in certain circles (Greek Orthodox being one)).
I knew I had seen it a lot recently and it was my time in Greece a couple of years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_head_covering

You are trying so hard to be woke you are missing rationality.

Balance
08-10-2020, 09:31 AM
She is.
As Bjauck points out she wears a scarf - a head covering - which is very respectful in many faiths (including Christianity in certain circles (Greek Orthodox being one)).
I knew I had seen it a lot recently and it was my time in Greece a couple of years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_head_covering



You are trying so hard to be woke you are missing rationality.

Nice try but ....
You forget that there are those in NZ who pleaded with her NOT to wear the hijab - not headscarf, but the Hijab.

fungus pudding
08-10-2020, 09:36 AM
Nice try but ....
You forget that there are those in NZ who pleaded with her NOT to wear the hijab - not headscarf, but the Hijab.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't give two stuffs what she wears, but I don't fantasize over a naked version.

tim23
08-10-2020, 07:07 PM
When? Can't say I ever recall such a practice.

What an embarrassment again - at your age you should remember - you are indeed an old fool

Baa_Baa
08-10-2020, 07:46 PM
What an embarrassment again - at your age you should remember - you are indeed an old fool

Head scarfs have never gone out of fashion, it is pointless debating with an old fool clearly suffering from discordia.

Balance
08-10-2020, 08:34 PM
What an embarrassment again - at your age you should remember - you are indeed an old fool

Mummyís little boy surfaces! Go get your milk intake first, boyo.

dln
08-10-2020, 08:55 PM
Mummyís little boy surfaces! Go get your milk intake first, boyo.
Really?
Even primary kids would laugh you out of the playground for that.

Balance
08-10-2020, 09:11 PM
Really?
Even primary kids would laugh you out of the playground for that.

Thanks for confirming that tim23 is in primary school.

BlackPeter
09-10-2020, 08:48 AM
What an embarrassment again - at your age you should remember - you are indeed an old fool


Head scarfs have never gone out of fashion, it is pointless debating with an old fool clearly suffering from discordia.


Mummy’s little boy surfaces! Go get your milk intake first, boyo.


Really?
Even primary kids would laugh you out of the playground for that.


Thanks for confirming that tim23 is in primary school.

Any chance we could move back to discuss the issues instead of throwing childish insults around? It feels pretty disgusting to watch grown up men behaving like preschoolers.

If we want to see a kindergarten bully who outgrew his school uniform, than we just need to watch the US president - no need to drop the standards on this forum to the same lows ...

Bjauck
09-10-2020, 09:02 AM
She is.
As Bjauck points out she wears a scarf - a head covering - which is very respectful in many faiths (including Christianity in certain circles (Greek Orthodox being one)).
I knew I had seen it a lot recently and it was my time in Greece a couple of years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_head_covering

You are trying so hard to be woke you are missing rationality.

I guess head scarves - especially those that cover the forehead and cheeks - have the added advantage of protecting skin from the sun. Perhaps another reason that they are often worn in areas with stronger sunshine. Pale skin (especially for women) being valued in lower latitudes (as it used to be in higher latitudes) as a sign that women do not have to toil outside or in the fields.

Think of the number of skin cancers fair skinned women in NZ could have prevented if face veils had been part of our cultural attire.

RupertBear
09-10-2020, 09:54 AM
Any chance we could move back to discuss the issues instead of throwing childish insults around? It feels pretty disgusting to watch grown up men behaving like preschoolers.

If we want to see a kindergarten bully who outgrew his school uniform, than we just need to watch the US president - no need to drop the standards on this forum to the same lows ...

Well said BP but it aint going to happen. Balance seems to think this is his sandpit and if you dont play by his rules he unleashes childish personal insults on you. Decent people have stopped posting on this thread because of him. Its a shame Share Trader allows this to happen.

RupertBear
09-10-2020, 10:19 AM
Any chance we could move back to discuss the issues instead of throwing childish insults around? It feels pretty disgusting to watch grown up men behaving like preschoolers.

If we want to see a kindergarten bully who outgrew his school uniform, than we just need to watch the US president - no need to drop the standards on this forum to the same lows ...

Compare this thread to the End of Life forum. Discussions around end of life care and the End of Life Bill can be extremely emotive. There have been some fabulous posts from people both for and against the End of Life Bill. People have shown respect for other peoples view points, there has been no personal abuse directed at someone with a differing point of view. I have found it to be an extremely helpful thread and I have valued hearing other peoples points of view

Balance
09-10-2020, 10:22 AM
Well said BP but it aint going to happen. Balance seems to think this is his sandpit and if you dont play by his rules he unleashes childish personal insults on you. Decent people have stopped posting on this thread because of him. Its a shame Share Trader allows this to happen.

Look in the mirror, RB.

RupertBear
09-10-2020, 10:37 AM
Look in the mirror, RB.

You are quite wrong Balance. Most of the insults on here originate from you.

Balance
09-10-2020, 10:54 AM
I guess head scarves - especially those that cover the forehead and cheeks - have the added advantage of protecting skin from the sun. Perhaps another reason that they are often worn in areas with stronger sunshine. Pale skin (especially for women) being valued in lower latitudes (as it used to be in higher latitudes) as a sign that women do not have to toil outside or in the fields.

Think of the number of skin cancers fair skinned women in NZ could have prevented if face veils had been part of our cultural attire.


Nice try but ....
You forget that there are those in NZ who pleaded with her NOT to wear the hijab - not headscarf, but the Hijab.

Dobby41 conveniently ignores the fact that Cindy wears the hijab as well to spite those Muslim women who pleaded with her not to do so.

toucan22
09-10-2020, 03:34 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;848182]Despicable and repugnant comment.

What is wrong with anyone showing their faith openly and appealing to their Christian faith value voters?

Going to be interesting to see how "Ms Colins" Christian values will be displayed when Jacinda takes home the Nobel Peace prize tonite!

Balance
09-10-2020, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;848182]Despicable and repugnant comment.

What is wrong with anyone showing their faith openly and appealing to their Christian faith value voters?

Going to be interesting to see how "Ms Colins" Christian values will be displayed when Jacinda takes home the Nobel Peace prize tonite!

If she gets the peace prize, you can understand why Cindy has been so keen to wear the hijab against the pleas of the oppressed Muslim women.

Joshuatree
09-10-2020, 04:18 PM
Totally wrong using God when you're trying to get votes on the campaign trail similar to stacking ponsonby rd with died in the wool national acolytes gushing away.Her denial that both were setups or wrong says it all imo.This person who considers/considered whale oil blogger cameron slater a personal friend.You know the one that threw mud and did all sorts of dirty tricks on good people.We want that sort of person leading national?

Joshuatree
09-10-2020, 04:21 PM
[QUOTE=toucan22;848777]

If she gets the peace prize, you can understand why Cindy has been so keen to wear the hijab against the pleas of the oppressed Muslim women.


Youve had the despicable human being prize some years in a row, as bad as trump, no morals, GYNOPHOBIA, and extreme narcissism.

blackcap
09-10-2020, 04:24 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;848788]


Youve had the despicable human being prize some years in a row, as bad as trump, no morals, GYNOPHOBIA, and extreme narcissism.

Sounds like you have described Cindy accurately.

Balance
09-10-2020, 05:01 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;848182]Despicable and repugnant comment.

What is wrong with anyone showing their faith openly and appealing to their Christian faith value voters?

Going to be interesting to see how "Ms Colins" Christian values will be displayed when Jacinda takes home the Nobel Peace prize tonite!

Goodness gracious me - Cindy in the race with the WH Fornicator Trump hot on her heels in there as a favourite Too in the top 4! Great company she keeps!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/nobel-peace-prize-to-be-announced-will-jacinda-ardern-win/O5OOT67PO4HQE3MZOT4MQJX7WY/

greater fool
09-10-2020, 07:01 PM
Goodness gracious me - Cindy in the race with the WH Fornicator Trump hot on her heels in there as a favourite Too in the top 4! Great company she keeps!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-to-find-out-today-if-she-has-won-the-nobel-peace-prize/XQG2ELCPZL3V5PI362ZHTKQJYE/

There, fixed that quote problem for future users.......

Balance
09-10-2020, 09:14 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;848182]Despicable and repugnant comment.

What is wrong with anyone showing their faith openly and appealing to their Christian faith value voters?

Going to be interesting to see how "Ms Colins" Christian values will be displayed when Jacinda takes home the Nobel Peace prize tonite!

Oh dear! No Nobel Peace prize for Cindy!

And she made such a huge effort, wearing the hijab numerous times, to support the oppression of Muslim women in Iran, Afghanistan & Somalia!

Oops - maybe thatís why her hypocrisy was revealed for all to see?

Joshuatree
09-10-2020, 09:18 PM
Correct Balance is a wannabe,never will be.

Balance
09-10-2020, 10:19 PM
Correct Balance is a wannabe,never will be.

Thanks for agreeing that Cindy is a wannabe. Guess she will give up wearing the Hijab, symbol of oppression of Muslim women from now?

Joshuatree
10-10-2020, 10:05 AM
Youve had the despicable human being prize some years in a row, as bad as trump, no morals, GYNOPHOBIA,(fear of strong women) and extreme narcissism.
Troll Alert!Troll Alert.Feed the wannabe trump troll.Note for entertainment purposes only.
Which came first trump or unbalanced?

macduffy
10-10-2020, 11:50 AM
Havn't we had enough of this name-calling nonsense going back and forth between posters? Time to call a truce IMO and get back to some serious, civilised debating!

Blue Skies
10-10-2020, 11:57 AM
In the deceitful despicable online behaviour category, desperate National MP Alfred Ngaro posts on Facebook (since removed) that a vote for his opponent is a vote for, decriminalising ALL drugs (his capitals), full term abortion, and abortion based on gender or disability. Lets just think about that for a second, abortion based on a baby's gender, presumably meaning female! All drugs! Full term abortion!

This is the stuff of extreme religious wingnut cranks in America not fair and decent minded NZ'ers.
Anyone so deceitful, posting stuff like this online, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Parliament & our legislative making body.

And just when was starting to feel a bit of sympathy for Judith Collins, as current leader setting the tone & culture of National, she refuses to condemn it, & says he's entitled to his opinion.

boysy
10-10-2020, 12:54 PM
In the deceitful despicable online behaviour category, desperate National MP Alfred Ngaro posts on Facebook (since removed) that a vote for his opponent is a vote for, decriminalising ALL drugs (his capitals), full term abortion, and abortion based on gender or disability. Lets just think about that for a second, abortion based on a baby's gender, presumably meaning female! All drugs! Full term abortion!

This is the stuff of extreme religious wingnut cranks in America not fair and decent minded NZ'ers.
Anyone so deceitful, posting stuff like this online, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Parliament & our legislative making body.

And just when was starting to feel a bit of sympathy for Judith Collins, as current leader setting the tone & culture of National, she refuses to condemn it, & says he's entitled to his opinion.

Thats one electorate MP who will be out on his ass next week hence the anything goes attitude - though crusher now is pushing the idea that their are now secret national voters who lie to pollsters that had me laughing as much as the 10 odd rouge polls - had the local Maungakiekie incumbent MP Denise Lee (National) at the supermarket scrounging for votes - screamed desperation no one was wanting to take flyers - she won the electorate easily last election however the tide has turned on national they are sleep walking into quite the loss in a week it would seem.

Wonder if Balance will take next weekend off from talking politics or simply sit by him self licking his wounds.

Balance
10-10-2020, 01:33 PM
A reminder of the cabinet of incompetents, as ranked by seniority & placing:

1. Cindy - Miss Popularity, all style & zero substance. Loves being a rock star but no rock star economy or delivering on election promises & undertakings from her.

She just found out that wearing the hijab does not guarantee her a Nobel Peace prize - in fact, itís an affront to the oppressed women in some Muslim countries.

2. Grant Robertson - tax, borrow and spend with no accountability. Leaving legacy of unproductive humongous spending and record debt levels for future generations to despair over.

3. Kelvin Davis - token Maori presence in the leadership team, man of little substance and Mr Invisible. Gets lost in the Orakei Marae while promoting it as a heritage tourism attraction!

4. Phil Twyford - Mr Kiwibuild & Mr fail at it all but still a favourite of Cindy. Hmmmm.

Then thereís Clare Curran, Lees Galloway, David Clark.

dln
10-10-2020, 01:45 PM
You seem to be confused about the subject of the thread Balende.

This election will certainly be a weeding of the garden for National.
Simon won't have much left to work with when he comes back as leader.

Balance
10-10-2020, 02:18 PM
You seem to be confused about the subject of the thread Balende.
.

Not at all - itís a reminder of what we have in government currently.

boysy
10-10-2020, 02:26 PM
I think he forgets he is on the threat to talk about national - clearly he canít keep Cindy out of his head or this thread .....

Balance
10-10-2020, 02:32 PM
I think he forgets he is on the threat to talk about national - clearly he canít keep Cindy out of his head or this thread .....

Here for you to compare & contrast.

In the other thread as well to remind readers & posters of the team of incompetents.

Enjoy!

boysy
10-10-2020, 02:39 PM
Not much talk of crushers accomplishments - Iím all ears

Blue Skies
11-10-2020, 07:57 AM
So close to the election, Denise Lee's critical internal email of Collins, Simon Bridges thinly disguised criticism of Collins re not seeing internal polling, MP's ongoing leaks to Newshub, Alfred Ngaro going rogue realising now he's out of a job at 30 on the list unless he can win the electorate seat, its starting to look like Judith Collin's leadership is under severe strain within caucus.
It's an interesting question, if she gets rolled after the election, who would replace her?

fungus pudding
11-10-2020, 08:01 AM
So close to the election, Denise Lee's critical internal email of Collins, Simon Bridges thinly disguised criticism of Collins re not seeing internal polling, MP's ongoing leaks to Newshub, Alfred Ngaro going rogue realising now he's out of a job at 30 on the list unless he can win the electorate seat, its starting to look like Judith Collin's leadership is under severe strain within caucus.
It's an interesting question, if she gets rolled after the election, who would replace her?

Someone else.

iceman
11-10-2020, 08:26 AM
Totally wrong using God when you're trying to get votes on the campaign trail similar to stacking ponsonby rd with died in the wool national acolytes gushing away.Her denial that both were setups or wrong says it all imo.This person who considers/considered whale oil blogger cameron slater a personal friend.You know the one that threw mud and did all sorts of dirty tricks on good people.We want that sort of person leading national?

I'm sure you've been listening to National Radio this morning where journalists that were at the place where Collins went to vote, confirmed the Minister of the church was there and caught Collins by a surprise when he offered her to pray prior to voting, which she accepted. Not the setup you incorrectly claim.

artemis
11-10-2020, 08:33 AM
So close to the election, Denise Lee's critical internal email of Collins, Simon Bridges thinly disguised criticism of Collins re not seeing internal polling, MP's ongoing leaks to Newshub, Alfred Ngaro going rogue realising now he's out of a job at 30 on the list unless he can win the electorate seat, its starting to look like Judith Collin's leadership is under severe strain within caucus.
It's an interesting question, if she gets rolled after the election, who would replace her?

"It's the putting right that counts". There will be repercussions after the election, and not damp bus tickets or step down from Ms Collins either.

Election campaign periods are no doubt a bit stressful, especially for MPs who have been in opposition for 3 years and suddenly have to step up a lot. Still, poor judgement is poor judgement, and not what is needed in our lawmakers.

Balance
11-10-2020, 08:53 AM
I'm sure you've been listening to National Radio this morning where journalists that were at the place where Collins went to vote, confirmed the Minister of the church was there and caught Collins by a surprise when he offered her to pray prior to voting, which she accepted. Not the setup you incorrectly claim.

The Labourites can see no wrong with Cindy wearing the hijab to court Muslim votes.

This she is doing despite pleas not to do so - so she is purposefully supporting the oppression of Muslim women in some countries.

Enough said.

RupertBear
11-10-2020, 10:22 AM
The Labourites can see no wrong with Cindy wearing the hijab to court Muslim votes.

This she is doing despite pleas not to do so - so she is purposefully supporting the oppression of Muslim women in some countries.

Enough said.

Thank god and long may it continue :t_up:

tim23
11-10-2020, 05:36 PM
A reminder of the cabinet of incompetents, as ranked by seniority & placing:

1. Cindy - Miss Popularity, all style & zero substance. Loves being a rock star but no rock star economy or delivering on election promises & undertakings from her.

She just found out that wearing the hijab does not guarantee her a Nobel Peace prize - in fact, itís an affront to the oppressed women in some Muslim countries.

2. Grant Robertson - tax, borrow and spend with no accountability. Leaving legacy of unproductive humongous spending and record debt levels for future generations to despair over.

3. Kelvin Davis - token Maori presence in the leadership team, man of little substance and Mr Invisible. Gets lost in the Orakei Marae while promoting it as a heritage tourism attraction!

4. Phil Twyford - Mr Kiwibuild & Mr fail at it all but still a favourite of Cindy. Hmmmm.

Then thereís Clare Curran, Lees Galloway, David Clark.

Get used to them for another 3 years old fella!

tim23
11-10-2020, 05:38 PM
Not much talk of crushers accomplishments - Iím all ears

You will be waiting for a while...

Balance
11-10-2020, 06:08 PM
Get used to them for another 3 years old fella!

Mummyís pathetic little boy surfaces to squeal for milk.

When you grow a pair, make an assertion and are able to back it up - come out and play with adults.

tim23
11-10-2020, 07:14 PM
Mummy’s pathetic little boy surfaces to squeal for milk.

When you grow a pair, make an assertion and are able to back it up - come out and play with adults.
I guess with old age one has to accept that your posts will get a bit weirder just another example.

Balance
11-10-2020, 07:54 PM
I guess with old age one has to accept that your posts will get a bit weirder just another example.

Grow a pair, mummyís boy.

boysy
11-10-2020, 08:35 PM
How is this **** not moderated - the pathetic shot calling needs to stop play the ball not the man

Blue Skies
12-10-2020, 10:00 AM
Whatever the colour of your politics, cant help feeling Judith Collins needs and deserves more loyalty and support from her MP's.
She inherited the leadership at the worst possible time, when things were an absolute mess & has done an excellent job salvaging the campaign, much better than expected.
Whether agree or not with her style of politics, she's highly competent with strong debates & media performances, but the continual mistakes, missteps & undermining from her own MP's, so unstabling & damaging.

dobby41
12-10-2020, 10:26 AM
Whatever the colour of your politics, cant help feeling Judith Collins needs and deserves more loyalty and support from her MP's.
She inherited the leadership at the worst possible time, when things were an absolute mess & has done an excellent job salvaging the campaign, much better than expected.
Whether agree or not with her style of politics, she's highly competent with strong debates & media performances, but the continual mistakes, missteps & undermining from her own MP's, so unstabling & damaging.

If you can't manage your caucus you don't deserve to manage the country.
The problem with Judith is that she is polarizing and many in her caucus aren't actually behind he no matter what she says otherwise.
Tough job and she has been sacrificed - poor wee thing.

BlackPeter
12-10-2020, 10:54 AM
Whatever the colour of your politics, cant help feeling Judith Collins needs and deserves more loyalty and support from her MP's.
She inherited the leadership at the worst possible time, when things were an absolute mess & has done an excellent job salvaging the campaign, much better than expected.
Whether agree or not with her style of politics, she's highly competent with strong debates & media performances, but the continual mistakes, missteps & undermining from her own MP's, so unstabling & damaging.

Not sure, whether this is a Collins related issue. Actually, she did better in the last couple of months than I thought.

The big issue for National is lack of loyalty of its members, lack of discipline and lack of decency in the National caucus. If anybody it must have been Bridges allowing the reigns to slip and who allowed dirty politics and shonky recruitment practises to take over in the party.

While I don't like Collins, one of the main reasons why I voted this time for the other block was a quite shonky, unqualified and undisciplined "team" National is showing up with. Most good people left or are leaving and the newcomers are of absolutely unknown quality at best, but every time anybody seems to show his (or her) colours they look dirty. With one word - National became too trumpesk.

Dirty politics at its worst (well, for NZ) - National stands at the moment for dirty fighting, lack of discipline and for too many of its members trying to mislead the country. Not really the party I want to see in power.

I do hope they manage to clean up their act over the next three years and become electable again. I like to have alternatives - this time there wasn't any credible alternative around.

moka
12-10-2020, 12:27 PM
Whatever the colour of your politics, cant help feeling Judith Collins needs and deserves more loyalty and support from her MP's.
She inherited the leadership at the worst possible time, when things were an absolute mess & has done an excellent job salvaging the campaign, much better than expected.
Whether agree or not with her style of politics, she's highly competent with strong debates & media performances, but the continual mistakes, missteps & undermining from her own MP's, so unstabling & damaging.I agree Judith Collins has done a much better job than expected. The problem is with the party. National have too many factions and they donít have a shared vision of what they stand for. There were three very different leadership styles and values with Bridges, Muller and Collins.

Interesting that they did not have many policies on their website a few months ago, which really surprised me. Act had policies, and they knew what they stood for. National were wanting the public to tell them what they wanted, and then they would make policies and promises that would get them votes. So reactive rather than proactive. They have lost their way.
Also National has lost so many competent and experienced MPs recently because of this divisiveness.

tim23
12-10-2020, 07:31 PM
Grow a pair, mummy’s boy.

Why you continue to embarrass yourself is beyond me - its a shame because on the shares side of things you make a bit of sense but when it comes to politics you just make a goose of yourself.

Baa_Baa
12-10-2020, 08:38 PM
Why you continue to embarrass yourself is beyond me - its a shame because on the shares side of things you make a bit of sense but when it comes to politics you just make a goose of yourself.

Balance has been banned?

boysy
12-10-2020, 10:07 PM
Moderators finally doing there job - donít think so they have let the raving lunatic have run of the forum throwing petty insults right and left - canít imagine knowing someone like that in real life thankfully

dobby41
13-10-2020, 07:16 AM
Balance has been banned?

Looks like it.
A few posts a step too far.
Peace and rationality at last.

Stumpynuts
13-10-2020, 07:58 AM
I've been seeing a lot of swinging going on here.
All you subservients have to know who the alpha is, hahaha ;)

RupertBear
13-10-2020, 09:17 AM
Moderators finally doing there job - don’t think so they have let the raving lunatic have run of the forum throwing petty insults right and left - can’t imagine knowing someone like that in real life thankfully

I agree boysy. What a relief to come on here and find there are no ranting abusive posts. Its a shame it has taken this long as we have lost a number of people who had a valuable perspective to share but have stopped posting because of his personal attacks. I hope they came back. I look forward to some healthy constructive posts going forward :)

dobby41
13-10-2020, 11:04 AM
National seems to be in full swing of mis-information.
After Ngaro's false accusation on Twyford, Judith still following the line that a vote for Labour or Greens will bring in a wealth tax we have National saying that a road in Otaki will be scrapped under Labour even though they have budgeted it and engineering work is underway.
Despicable.

jonu
13-10-2020, 11:08 AM
How is this **** not moderated - the pathetic shot calling needs to stop play the ball not the man

Pots and kettles. This from the "stale pale male" identity politics cheap shotter!

BlackPeter
13-10-2020, 11:16 AM
National seems to be in full swing of mis-information.
After Ngaro's false accusation on Twyford, Judith still following the line that a vote for Labour or Greens will bring in a wealth tax we have National saying that a road in Otaki will be scrapped under Labour even though they have budgeted it and engineering work is underway.
Despicable.

Well, looks like voters have this time the choice to either pick a Leader or to pick a Misleader.

Should be an easy choice :) ... my money is on the Leader;

Sad though to watch how National degraded from a once respectable and responsible party into a bunch of dirty politickers, though some might say they always have been that way.

fungus pudding
13-10-2020, 11:34 AM
Well, looks like voters have this time the choice to either pick a Leader or to pick a Misleader.

Should be an easy choice :) ... my money is on the Leader;

Sad though to watch how National degraded from a once respectable and responsible party into a bunch of dirty politickers, though some might say they always have been that way.

Unfortunately the leader only has about four in her party to lead. The rest are a bunch of misfits and no-hopers, quite beyond being led.

BlackPeter
13-10-2020, 12:18 PM
Unfortunately the leader only has about four in her party to lead. The rest are a bunch of misfits and no-hopers, quite beyond being led.

You are a bit harsh. While I acknowledge that the Labour resource pool is limited - but so is Nationals, and I absolutely lost my trust into Nationals recruitment process - many unknown names and the first time you hear about them its a scandal. Too much dodgy dirty politics coming up.

The big problems NZ has to face are environment / global warming, dealing with inequality (poor people getting poorer), dealing with the outfall of a global debt crisis, dealing with the outfall of a global economic crisis, dealing with the threat of right wing populism and terrorism which is swapping onto our side of the world proliferated by crooks like Trump & Co. They have their fans on this side of the world as well, and these are voting right. I hate to lie down with flea ridden dogs.

True - for some of these issues a decent National party e.g. under Amy Adams / Nicky Kay or Muller might be better able to solve them, but Amy and Nicky are gone and Muller goes nowhere. For most of the issues however a Labour / Green coalition which at least understands the problems is in my view in a better position to solve them. They might not have all the solutions, but at least they acknowledge the issues.

Quite different e.g. to an ACT party (which National inevitably would need to govern) which wants to "heal" the economy with austerity policies and which considers it as their priority (that's what their program says) to create the best weapons legislation of the world. They did not say best for whom, but likely for the gun lovers which pumped up their list and their coffers. Not clear to me how a liberalisation of our weapons law can be in the current situation a priority, unless you want to pay back your sponsors.

I guess the choice at this election is
a) do we prefer to vote for a party which is more likely to at least attempt to solve the big problems we are facing but has only limited competence to do so, or
b) do we want to pick a party which in the past often used to have more competence but lost this competence together with its direction and its decency.

Not an optimal choice, but still not hard to decide ...

Joshuatree
13-10-2020, 01:37 PM
I'm sure you've been listening to National Radio this morning where journalists that were at the place where Collins went to vote, confirmed the Minister of the church was there and caught Collins by a surprise when he offered her to pray prior to voting, which she accepted. Not the setup you incorrectly claim.

Journalists were pretty well ushered in after her, would you do that too?

RupertBear
13-10-2020, 02:37 PM
Unfortunately the leader only has about four in her party to lead. The rest are a bunch of misfits and no-hopers, quite beyond being led.

I agree with BP fungus both the Labour resource pool and the National pool are pretty limited, and the same can be said of ACT. Other than David Seymour I would be hard pressed to name any of their candidates, which I might add he struggled to do himself when asked the other day.

iceman
13-10-2020, 03:00 PM
Journalists were pretty well ushered in after her, would you do that too?

Nothing to do with what I’d do. I was not there and I doubt you were so you’re just making this stuff up. I’ll just take the word of a person (journalist) was there

Joshuatree
13-10-2020, 03:12 PM
Nothing made up bud. Thank Heaven God is not listening. To think Judith thinks its ok to use God like that mixing God with politics lol.

SBQ
13-10-2020, 05:21 PM
I guess the choice at this election is
a) do we prefer to vote for a party which is more likely to at least attempt to solve the big problems we are facing but has only limited competence to do so, or
b) do we want to pick a party which in the past often used to have more competence but lost this competence together with its direction and its decency.

Not an optimal choice, but still not hard to decide ...

In the NZ investment arena, i'm a bit disappointed in Jacinda not following through with her CGT. It was quite clear she needed a coalition to get her PM position but she led everyone on, wasted $ on working groups this and that. A very serious problem in investments when the wealthy whom invested in real estate are earning far more (after tax if any?) than the working class person that is in Kiwi Saver (for on most part, those managed funds invest overseas which fall under FIF and have a different set of tax requirement).

I am also aware of National Party's fall out and lack of confidence within the party. But that does not mean they can't lead. All parties start from somewhere and have good and bad times.

I'm also curious on how Green Party's 'wealth tax' will be handled. Does that mean people will need to disclose all their assets of significant values? (not speaking real estate as that's easily tracked) but how about overseas investments? How about art paintings or valuables such as classic cars? This is very concerning and I have a term deposit that is about to mature end of this month - my sense tells me, don't keep it in the country.

Joshuatree
13-10-2020, 06:03 PM
Sounds like you are the last person who is even prepared to pay a single $ of wealth tax, or cap gains, or death duty.Get it out of the country & go with it ,i say;)

Panda-NZ-
13-10-2020, 06:11 PM
You are a bit harsh. While I acknowledge that the Labour resource pool is limited - but so is Nationals, and I absolutely lost my trust into Nationals recruitment process - many unknown names and the first time you hear about them its a scandal. Too much dodgy dirty politics coming up.


Brett Hudson/Gerry brownlee 2023..?

SBQ
13-10-2020, 06:26 PM
Sounds like you are the last person who is even prepared to pay a single $ of wealth tax, or cap gains, or death duty.Get it out of the country & go with it ,i say;)

You mean a person has paid enough taxes to earn their wealth but that's not good enough so they ask for more? That's how gov't operate. Can't take it from the poor, the middle class is shrinking, so might as well take it from those that have something?

You are aware $1M is not a lot of $ if you live in Auckland (prices of houses).

Oh wait Joshuatree - a come back moronic response with no substance. Let's be real here.

Joshuatree
13-10-2020, 08:59 PM
Let's stay selfish and greedy and find a way to take it with you,ehhlol,paid too much you mean,poor wee thing,pay your accountant more ehh😉

Joshuatree
13-10-2020, 09:08 PM
You haven't even read the Greens wealth tax 😉 idea,most houses will be exempt

SBQ
13-10-2020, 09:20 PM
You haven't even read the Greens wealth tax  idea,most houses will be exempt

You mean NZ gov't can't fix the problem that houses on most part, get sold 100% tax free? So rather than addressing the tax discrepancy between share ownership through Kiwi Saver vs mortgage ownership through buying houses, it's been well talked about that the latter is a far better investment. No no.. can't address this problem so instead, let's lump on another type of tax?

I'm trying to bring meaningful discussion here. Not the bullying response from Joshuatree.

fungus pudding
13-10-2020, 10:10 PM
You mean NZ gov't can't fix the problem that houses on most part, get sold 100% tax free? So rather than addressing the tax discrepancy between share ownership through Kiwi Saver vs mortgage ownership through buying houses, it's been well talked about that the latter is a far better investment. No no.. can't address this problem so instead, let's lump on another type of tax?

I'm trying to bring meaningful discussion here. Not the bullying response from Joshuatree.

There is not much difference between shares and real estate as far as tax goes. Traders are taxed - investors are not. The only real difference is the bright line test that means that income tax applies to any profit on residential real estate held for less than 5 years regardless of vendors' status. Excludes own home.

P.S. Should have emphasised - traders are taxed on profit generated on sale investors are not. Both are taxed on income.

artemis
14-10-2020, 06:02 AM
There is not much difference between shares and real estate as far as tax goes. Traders are taxed - investors are not. The only real difference is the bright line test that means that income tax applies to any profit on residential real estate held for less than 5 years regardless of vendors' status. Excludes own home.

Yes, and traders and investors both pay tax on income.

There is a further difference with residential rentals - ringfencing of rental losses. Might not sound like a biggie but info from IRD is that in 2017 tax year 116,000 rental owners reported a rental loss averaging about $7,000. Anyone think landlords will shrug and accept without looking to reduce their exposure one way or another?

iceman
14-10-2020, 07:52 AM
In the NZ investment arena, i'm a bit disappointed in Jacinda not following through with her CGT. It was quite clear she needed a coalition to get her PM position but she led everyone on, wasted $ on working groups this and that. A very serious problem in investments when the wealthy whom invested in real estate are earning far more (after tax if any?) than the working class person that is in Kiwi Saver (for on most part, those managed funds invest overseas which fall under FIF and have a different set of tax requirement).

I am also aware of National Party's fall out and lack of confidence within the party. But that does not mean they can't lead. All parties start from somewhere and have good and bad times.

I'm also curious on how Green Party's 'wealth tax' will be handled. Does that mean people will need to disclose all their assets of significant values? (not speaking real estate as that's easily tracked) but how about overseas investments? How about art paintings or valuables such as classic cars? This is very concerning and I have a term deposit that is about to mature end of this month - my sense tells me, don't keep it in the country.

I think you're right SBQ that when this wealth tax will be brought in and if people feel it is unfair, many will duse any legal means possible to avoid paying the tax. That is normal and and perfectly logical. However, with the increased regulation around the World in recent years to try to hinder funding of terrorism and money laundering, it has become very difficult to set up accounts and even buy shares/property in most countries without a huge amount of disclosure. So I am not sure most people could easily and realistically just move assets overseas, unless they already have set ups in place to do so.

Hopefully any CGT or wealth tax will be implemented fairly so people are not too adverse to paying it, for the betterment of NZ. That would also require Government to show responsibility and restraint with Government finances, something we are unlikely to see from the 2 biggest proponents of these taxes.

fungus pudding
14-10-2020, 08:01 AM
Hopefully any CGT or wealth tax will be implemented fairly so people are not too adverse to paying it, for the betterment of NZ. That would also require Government to show responsibility and restraint with Government finances, something we are unlikely to see from the 2 biggest proponents of these taxes.

'Fairly' by whose definition? Can you imagine the Kermits ever agreeing with anyone else on what is 'fair'!

Blue Skies
14-10-2020, 08:48 AM
Wealth tax sounds ok in theory but countries which have tried it, found it didn't work in practice, and it just pisses people off with the govt.
e.g. in 1990 12 countries in Europe tried a form of wealth tax, today only 3 still have it.
The Greens wealth tax would not just capture the super rich but also many in the middle socio economic group and with many people asset rich but income poor, the deferred payment of the tax would result in little extra tax revenue (& redistribution) for the govt for many years, so whats the point?
The cost of collecting a wealth tax for the govt, with all the disputes would consume a large chunk of it anyway.


https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/02/26/698057356/if-a-wealth-tax-is-such-a-good-idea-why-did-europe-kill-theirs

BlackPeter
14-10-2020, 09:13 AM
Wealth tax sounds ok in theory but countries which have tried it, found it didn't work in practice, and it just pisses people off with the govt.
e.g. in 1990 12 countries in Europe tried a form of wealth tax, today only 3 still have it.
The Greens wealth tax would not just capture the super rich but also many in the middle socio economic group and with many people asset rich but income poor, the deferred payment of the tax would result in little extra tax revenue (& redistribution) for the govt for many years, so whats the point?
The cost of collecting a wealth tax for the govt, with all the disputes would consume a large chunk of it anyway.


https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/02/26/698057356/if-a-wealth-tax-is-such-a-good-idea-why-did-europe-kill-theirs

I agree - both CGT and wealth tax will be unpopular with the "haves", are likely to be inefficient to collect and will result not just in an explosion of our tax bureaucracy but as well of fat tax lawyers. Pretty disgusting picture the latter, I obviously meant an explosion of the numbers of fat tax lawyers.

Not sure I see the Green proposal as the best thing since sliced bread, but I do commend them that they are the only party which has identified the problem and proposed a solution. We inevitably need a broadening of our tax base as well as a rebalancing of our tax load. It is absolutely disgraceful that fat cats like e.g. Trump in the US do not pay taxes at all. I am sure we have plenty of tax avoiding mini trumps in NZ as well.

Inequality is killing our democratic institutions ... and somebody will need to pay for the rising costs of climate crisis, an explosion of our health and super costs due to the grey tsunami. Why not taxing the rich people who found so far the most creative ways to avoid taxation in any shape and form?

Instead of beating up the Greens proposal ... what would you think is a better way to pay for the looming costs of the grey tsunami retiring coupled with the increasing cost of climate change as well as reducing (or at least mitigating) inequality?

artemis
14-10-2020, 10:27 AM
..... Instead of beating up the Greens proposal ... what would you think is a better way to pay for the looming costs of the grey tsunami retiring coupled with the increasing cost of climate change as well as reducing (or at least mitigating) inequality?

The baby boom bubble is making its way through the demographics and there have been official projections in the recent past that the country will continue to afford universal super even at current eligibility age. Though a gradual increase in the age is not a bad idea.

Climate change- settled science? Quite a lot of scientists think not. Meantime some careful digging under the ground and under the sea would create jobs and revenue.

Inequality. I would prefer to see effort and funding going into equality of opportunity rather equality of outcome. Teach a person to fish, and all that.

Bjauck
14-10-2020, 10:59 AM
...
P.S. Should have emphasised - traders are taxed on profit generated on sale investors are not. Both are taxed on income. A big class of investor in housing is not taxed on the annual benefit derived from their investment in housing - owner-occupiers.

If you own shares, the annual net benefit from owning them (your income) is taxable. If you own a house and live in it, then the annual net benefit of owning it is not taxable. So a big exclusion that affects a big proportion of the residential housing asset class.

fungus pudding
14-10-2020, 11:01 AM
You are a bit harsh. While I acknowledge that the Labour resource pool is limited - but so is Nationals ..............


I think most of National's MPs would run rings around Phil Twyford, David Parker, Kelvin Davis and a couple of others who should never have made it into parliament.

Blue Skies
14-10-2020, 11:50 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if Collins is starting to make some ground with this continued hammering on the threat of a Wealth tax.
Comments from the Greens about it still being a priority in any negotiation will have certainly helped her cause, undermining Labours assurances & started to raise a few doubts where there were none before.
Fear and worry are powerful motivators & simple key messages like this tend to come to the forefront of peoples minds in the voting booth.

dobby41
14-10-2020, 12:47 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Collins is starting to make some ground with this continued hammering on the threat of a Wealth tax.
Comments from the Greens about it still being a priority in any negotiation will have certainly helped her cause, undermining Labours assurances & started to raise a few doubts where there were none before.
Fear and worry are powerful motivators & simple key messages like this tend to come to the forefront of peoples minds in the voting booth.

Yip - lies work unfortunately.

Bjauck
14-10-2020, 12:47 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Collins is starting to make some ground with this continued hammering on the threat of a Wealth tax.
Comments from the Greens about it still being a priority in any negotiation will have certainly helped her cause, undermining Labours assurances & started to raise a few doubts where there were none before.
Fear and worry are powerful motivators & simple key messages like this tend to come to the forefront of peoples minds in the voting booth.

Maybe any possibility of threats of new taxes partly explains the hot real estate market atm. Many are rushing in to buy housing - trading up or new homeowners.

Housing ownership is a sacred cow in NZ. No government would dare extend any capital gains tax to owner-occupied housing. And for wealth taxes, there will probably be a lenient provision for owner-occupied main dwellings.

So there is only a slim chance that net equity in owner-occupied housing will be taxed to pay for Covid. Whereas deposit holders and share investors are fare game for any CGT or Wealth tax. And receive scant protection if there is post-covid financial emergency (OBR hair cut anyone?) Housing on the other hand is just too big a repository of wealth to fail in NZ and the government will try to protect it if a potential collapse is on the horizon. And income earners and GST payers will be the easy target for any existing tax increases.

jonu
14-10-2020, 12:49 PM
Yip - lies work unfortunately.

If Cindy's only way to power is a Wealth Tax through a deal with the Greens she will take it. I have absolutely no doubt. Look what she sacrificed to get Winston over the line.

Bjauck
14-10-2020, 12:55 PM
If Cindy's only way to power is a Wealth Tax through a deal with the Greens she will take it. I have absolutely no doubt. Look what she sacrificed to get Winston over the line. More likely - the Greens will use their Wealth Tax as a bargaining chip in coalition talks, so that they can get some of their other policies (or some of their MPS as ministers) as part of a coalition platform.

dobby41
14-10-2020, 01:07 PM
If Cindy's only way to power is a Wealth Tax through a deal with the Greens she will take it. I have absolutely no doubt. Look what she sacrificed to get Winston over the line.

The Greens won't have that much power at the negotiating table.
Just as we could say that National would be forced to take all Acts policies.

BlackPeter
14-10-2020, 01:18 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Collins is starting to make some ground with this continued hammering on the threat of a Wealth tax.
Comments from the Greens about it still being a priority in any negotiation will have certainly helped her cause, undermining Labours assurances & started to raise a few doubts where there were none before.
Fear and worry are powerful motivators & simple key messages like this tend to come to the forefront of peoples minds in the voting booth.

Well, she might catch some fearful richlisters, but there are not that many around, and the ones who are would have voted for her anyway.

Her trumpesk behaviour however makes her less and less electable for decent New Zealanders. She choose to make politics with lying and smearing and she is not even able to control the dirty little politickers National seemed to have accumulated in the dozens. We need decent politicians, and there are not many of them (I know) who remained in National. Clearly - she is desperate, but the day she started lying and smearing she moved on my Never Again list ... and I suppose I might not be alone.

Starting to wonder whether 2020 will be for National a four leader year? I think the odds for that are pretty good. Who will be the next - any ideas?

Discl:
sitting politically between (a conservative) Green and what ACT once used to be (well, at a time when they still have been the "Association of Consumers and Taxpayers", not the gun lover party). Voted in the past much more often for ACT and / or National than for Green. However - at this stage I do consider both ACT (gun lovers) as well as National (trumpesk Collins) as unelectable.

BlackPeter
14-10-2020, 01:29 PM
If Cindy's only way to power is a Wealth Tax through a deal with the Greens she will take it. I have absolutely no doubt. Look what she sacrificed to get Winston over the line.

Difference is - Winston was in a great position to negotiate, given that he said he is open to go with both sides. Green is only able to go with Labour (something I normally regret, but it is what it is) - i.e. their negotiation lever is basically zero. They will go with Labour, if Labour needs them and they will be very undemanding as long as Labour offers them some green tokens (climate, environment). No worries :):

Joshuatree
14-10-2020, 01:57 PM
Tokens? We are going to need genuine change to continue . Are you genuinely that flippant about whats happening to this planet BP. Maybe you should consider National they dont give a stuff, well Judith doesnt anyways.

BlackPeter
14-10-2020, 02:42 PM
Tokens? We are going to need genuine change to continue . Are you genuinely that flippant about whats happening to this planet BP. Maybe you should consider National they dont give a stuff, well Judith doesnt anyways.

I didn't talk about what we (or the planet) need(s), but about what the Greens are likely to get in any negotiation with Labour, given that they don't have any real lever to negotiate. Not flippant, but realistic. Time to get down from your tree :p. NB: pretending to occupy the moral high ground does not suit you ;) ;

Blue Skies
14-10-2020, 02:45 PM
When you consider 30% of homeowners are mortgage free (nationally and in Auckland according to One Roof 2019) & $1.2 M only buys you a 2 bedroom apartment in many suburbs in Auckland, and the average asking price for a house in Auckland is now over $1M, the wealth tax would capture a heck of a lot more people than just rich listers.

I can think of more than a few middle socio eco group families trying to save for a secure retirement while paying the bills, who would be worried about an extra tax burden.
You've already paid tax on the money you've used to buy the asset.

macduffy
14-10-2020, 02:55 PM
When you consider 30% of homeowners are mortgage free (nationally and in Auckland according to One Roof 2019) & $1.2 M only buys you a 2 bedroom apartment in many suburbs in Auckland, and the average asking price for a house in Auckland is now over $1M, the wealth tax would capture a heck of a lot more people than just rich listers.

I can think of more than a few middle socio eco group families trying to save for a secure retirement while paying the bills, who would be worried about an extra tax burden.
You've already paid tax on the money you've used to buy the asset.

Are you taking account of the "assurance" that owner-occupied homes wouldn't be counted in the "wealth" calculation?

BlackPeter
14-10-2020, 02:55 PM
When you consider 30% of homeowners are mortgage free (nationally and in Auckland according to One Roof 2019) & $1.2 M only buys you a 2 bedroom apartment in many suburbs in Auckland, and the average asking price for a house in Auckland is now over $1M, the wealth tax would capture a heck of a lot more people than just rich listers.

I can think of more than a few middle socio eco group families trying to save for a secure retirement while paying the bills, who would be worried about an extra tax burden.
You've already paid tax on the money you've used to buy the asset.

You need to balance this against the health costs which overweight and obese Kiwis will need to pay under a future National government out of their own private pocket. Why do you think that Collins made already overtures saying being overweight is the individuals responsibility? Surely only to be able to put - if & when in government - the knife to the health budget. Fat people need to pay for their own healthcare if & when National comes back into power ... hey it is their own fault!

See - creating fears goes both ways, my claim above about big people under National loosing their public health cover is as true as your claim about the wealth tax und Labour :p; On a second thought - I think it is much more likely National will cut the health cover for big people than that Labour would go with the Greenies wealth tax. Collins would need to implement her austerity program somewhere, and what would make more sense for her than asking the people creating the problem (being overweight) to pay for the consequences by themselves?

By the way - Collins is offending with her thoughtless attacks against overweight people the majority of all New Zealanders. While she might have a point (to a degree), she clearly did not think through the consequences of what she said.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/123077497/election-2020-judith-collins-blaming-obesity-on-personal-responsibility-is-shallow-lazy-and-wrong-experts-say

Blue Skies
14-10-2020, 03:09 PM
Are you taking account of the "assurance" that owner-occupied homes wouldn't be counted in the "wealth" calculation?


I can't find anywhere that owner occupied homes are excluded from the wealth tax calculation. Doesn't look like they are excluded.
Is that true & if so where can I find that?

Bjauck
14-10-2020, 03:23 PM
When you consider 30% of homeowners are mortgage free (nationally and in Auckland according to One Roof 2019) & $1.2 M only buys you a 2 bedroom apartment in many suburbs in Auckland, and the average asking price for a house in Auckland is now over $1M, the wealth tax would capture a heck of a lot more people than just rich listers. Remember it is net wealth - so the value of the house is reduced by the outstanding mortgage. Also, The Greens policy means that if home and other assets are owned jointly by two people (a couple) then the couple can hold up to $2m before the tax is applied. Then for assets over $1m (per person) the rate would be at 1% and then for assets over $2m (or $4m per couple) the rate would be at 2%.

So a couple owning $3m in net assets would end up paying $10,00 pa in Green wealth tax

Yes it is ridiculous the amount of debt a first home owner (without wealthy family help) needs to take on and how many multiples of average incomes you need to buy an Auckland house.


I can think of more than a few middle socio eco group families trying to save for a secure retirement while paying the bills, who would be worried about an extra tax burden.
You've already paid tax on the money you've used to buy the asset. Yet Kiwisaver is already taxed, so I see taxing the family home that is used as a de facto retirement plan / wealth accumulatoris only logical and consistent. It is much more unfair to tax kiwisaver?

If you invest your money into shares and a business, then you continue to pay tax on you investment.

fungus pudding
14-10-2020, 03:24 PM
I can't find anywhere that owner occupied homes are excluded from the wealth tax calculation. Doesn't look like they are excluded.
Is that true & if so where can I find that?
You won't find it because they're not.

artemis
14-10-2020, 03:24 PM
..... By the way - Collins is offending with her thoughtless attacks against overweight people the majority of all New Zealanders. While she might have a point (to a degree), she clearly did not think through the consequences of what she said.


Newshub Question of the Day
Do you believe obesity is a choice?
Yes - 77%
No - 23%

Not scientific but that's a big difference.

BlackPeter
14-10-2020, 03:36 PM
Newshub Question of the Day
Do you believe obesity is a choice?
Yes - 77%
No - 23%

Not scientific but that's a big difference.

That's bad. Assuming National supporters are in average as overweight as everybody else in NZ, then this poll would imply National would loose a further 23% of their supporters. Saturday evening will be interesting :p;

artemis
14-10-2020, 03:36 PM
Remember it is net wealth - so the value of the house is reduced by the outstanding mortgage. Also, The Greens policy means that if home and other assets are owned jointly by two people (a couple) then the couple can hold up to $2m before the tax is applied. Then for assets over $1m (per person) the rate would be at 1% and then for assets over $2m (or $4m per couple) the rate would be at 2%.

Yes it is ridiculous the amount of debt a first home owner (without wealthy family help) needs to take on and how many multiples of average incomes you need to buy an Auckland house.

Yet Kiwisaver is already taxed, so I see taxing the family home that is used as a de facto retirement plan / wealth accumulatoris only logical and consistent. It is much more unfair to tax kiwisaver?

If you invest your money into shares and a business, then you continue to pay tax on you investment.

Kiwisaver income is taxed, not sure about non-NZ investments though, but proceeds are paid out tax free. Some income from shares is taxed, some effecively not.

TOP has a property tax policy that includes the main home, but it needs to be seen as part of their tax package. IMO it has merit but ain't going to happen this election.

blackcap
14-10-2020, 03:37 PM
Newshub Question of the Day
Do you believe obesity is a choice?
Yes - 77%
No - 23%

Not scientific but that's a big difference.

Seems to me that Collins thought it through very well. Again the media/academic framing/posturing and public opinion differs wildly.

Bjauck
14-10-2020, 03:45 PM
Kiwisaver income is taxed, not sure about non-NZ investments though, but proceeds are paid out tax free. Some income from shares is taxed, some effecively not.

TOP has a property tax policy that includes the main home, but it needs to be seen as part of their tax package. IMO it has merit but ain't going to happen this election.

Personally I would prefer a CGT out of a wealth tax or a cgt. However I think the Green Wealth tax, plus options to defer payment, has merit in relation to recalibrating NZ investment priorities as well as broadening the tax base. I think those assets already earning an income should have a credit applied to the wealth tax liability. However the wealth tax rate at 1% over a million and then 2% over $2m is far too high.

I think Spain has a wealth tax rate starting at 0.2% for those who own over the equivalent of $1.25m of net assets. And people in Madrid are given a further allowance to compensate for their high house prices.

Blue Skies
14-10-2020, 05:13 PM
You need to balance this against the health costs which overweight and obese Kiwis will need to pay under a future National government out of their own private pocket. Why do you think that Collins made already overtures saying being overweight is the individuals responsibility? Surely only to be able to put - if & when in government - the knife to the health budget. Fat people need to pay for their own healthcare if & when National comes back into power ... hey it is their own fault!

See - creating fears goes both ways, my claim above about big people under National loosing their public health cover is as true as your claim about the wealth tax und Labour :p; On a second thought - I think it is much more likely National will cut the health cover for big people than that Labour would go with the Greenies wealth tax. Collins would need to implement her austerity program somewhere, and what would make more sense for her than asking the people creating the problem (being overweight) to pay for the consequences by themselves?

By the way - Collins is offending with her thoughtless attacks against overweight people the majority of all New Zealanders. While she might have a point (to a degree), she clearly did not think through the consequences of what she said.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/123077497/election-2020-judith-collins-blaming-obesity-on-personal-responsibility-is-shallow-lazy-and-wrong-experts-say



Hey BP, I'm not claiming there would be a wealth tax under a Labour Greens govt, far from it & in fact the exact opposite, i accept assurances from the PM there won't be.
Was just pointing out the continual hammering of this by Judith Collins may have some effect on some voters & I see in a Newshub poll today, 67% said they thought a Labour Greens govt would bring in a wealth tax against 37% who didn't so Collins messaging is gaining some traction & may affect the way people vote despite it being ruled out by Adern.

SBQ
14-10-2020, 08:37 PM
Kiwisaver income is taxed, not sure about non-NZ investments though, but proceeds are paid out tax free. Some income from shares is taxed, some effecively not.

TOP has a property tax policy that includes the main home, but it needs to be seen as part of their tax package. IMO it has merit but ain't going to happen this election.

Overseas share investments (with some exclusions on ASX listed shares), fall under the FIF regime. Yes it's a massive regime and it stinks! I am all for CGT and when Jacinda had that on her election platform, I clearly remember her saying she would introduce CGT. This meant the equalisation of taxation among different asset classes. The max 5% FIF basically operates a bit like a wealth tax but it only factors tax on annual gains with no consideration on tax credit for negative portfolio losses in a year. The Greens wealth tax will be another tax to go on top of that 'a tax on a tax'.

The significance of this wealth tax needs rethinking because it's unfair to say a "couple" living in a house in Auckland would be safe up to $2M net value. UNTIL THE DAY when the one partner dies! and then the surviving spouse would be wacked with an instant wealth tax.

How come there was no response or comment about the "Tax Working Group" that Jacinda wasted $ on 2 years ago? Yes they advised a CGT on residential homes - particularly those landlords that hold for long term (because either 2 or 5 years, no person invests in that short time frame), do sell for 100% tax free on the capital gain. The TWG didn't advise on a Wealth Tax. They also suggested a 'land tax' but that's no different to rates (and frankly speaking, municipal rates operate much like a wealth tax).

The whole NZ tax scheme is a shambles. Likewise with the gov't spending with no performance review. Why is it that many essential services for payment.. are NOT linked to inflation? They do this in Canada - gov't pensions, child allowances, care etc ALL "Indexed to Inflation". Instead in NZ we sit and wait for each respected parties (ie teachers, doctors, etc) to carry on living on a fixed rate pay until it's not enough and then get into union disputes for more pay.

iceman
15-10-2020, 05:26 AM
Difference is - Winston was in a great position to negotiate, given that he said he is open to go with both sides. Green is only able to go with Labour (something I normally regret, but it is what it is) - i.e. their negotiation lever is basically zero. They will go with Labour, if Labour needs them and they will be very undemanding as long as Labour offers them some green tokens (climate, environment). No worries :):

Not sure if any farmers or fishermen would call that small "green tokens" to give to the Greens. Some of their extreme policies would close large parts of both industries, just as they did with Oil & Gas

Bjauck
15-10-2020, 07:15 AM
Hey BP, I'm not claiming there would be a wealth tax under a Labour Greens govt, far from it & in fact the exact opposite, i accept assurances from the PM there won't be.
Was just pointing out the continual hammering of this by Judith Collins may have some effect on some voters & I see in a Newshub poll today, 67% said they thought a Labour Greens govt would bring in a wealth tax against 37% who didn't so Collins messaging is gaining some traction & may affect the way people vote despite it being ruled out by Adern.

Brexit - Trump - Collins?
Who would have thought dirty politics actually wins support.

dobby41
15-10-2020, 07:29 AM
Brexit - Trump - Collins?
Who would have thought dirty politics actually wins support.

Dirty politics is in Judith's blood.
It's the way she thinks - anything to get the vote.
Debate tonight should be fiery.

Bjauck
15-10-2020, 07:36 AM
...The Greens wealth tax will be another tax to go on top of that 'a tax on a tax'.

The significance of this wealth tax needs rethinking because it's unfair to say a "couple" living in a house in Auckland would be safe up to $2M net value. UNTIL THE DAY when the one partner dies! and then the surviving spouse would be wacked with an instant wealth tax.

How come there was no response or comment about the "Tax Working Group" that Jacinda wasted $ on 2 years ago? Yes they advised a CGT on residential homes - particularly those landlords that hold for long term (because either 2 or 5 years, no person invests in that short time frame), do sell for 100% tax free on the capital gain. The TWG didn't advise on a Wealth Tax. They also suggested a 'land tax' but that's no different to rates (and frankly speaking, municipal rates operate much like a wealth tax).

The whole NZ tax scheme is a shambles. Likewise with the gov't spending with no performance review. Why is it that many essential services for payment.. are NOT linked to inflation? They do this in Canada - gov't pensions, child allowances, care etc ALL "Indexed to Inflation". Instead in NZ we sit and wait for each respected parties (ie teachers, doctors, etc) to carry on living on a fixed rate pay until it's not enough and then get into union disputes for more pay.

Totally agree. The NZ tax system ends up causing a lop-sided investment preference for real estate. The Greens are trying to address the shortcomings in the NZ tax system. They have said it would be tweaked after a review before implementation. However their Wealth Tax plans are set at a low threshold and with high rates. It would actually further penalise those who invest in business and other income producing equities.

Council rates are more like a poll tax. They are reflected in the rent that Landlords charge to their tenants (or taken into account when determining overall profitability of the investment property taking into account expected capital gains and net rent). So both owner-occupiers and tenants (indirectly through rent) end up paying for them.

dobby41
15-10-2020, 07:47 AM
If you have premium access Simon Wilson has a few words on the wealth tax.
It's not going to happen - Labour won't accept it.
Greens may be able to leverage a bit though - they do have 6 high priority policies and people have forgotten the other 5.

Given that the payment of the tax can be deferred it won't really impact people.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/simon-wilsons-election-diary-the-real-impact-of-that-wealth-tax/OFOTPRJDRUAZI6XDFLEZJDUWTA/

Bjauck
15-10-2020, 07:56 AM
As far as being overweight is concerned, there are many factors and causes. Some causes are genetic. Other causes are poverty and lack of education. Some factors are psychological. Lets remember NZ has a lamentably high suicide rate and depression can also be reflected in eating habits. It would have been great if Collins had thrown her weight behind tackling those issues and their root causes. However some of the solutions could be unpalatable to her target electorate?

fungus pudding
15-10-2020, 08:45 AM
If you have premium access Simon Wilson has a few words on the wealth tax.
It's not going to happen - Labour won't accept it.
Greens may be able to leverage a bit though - they do have 6 high priority policies and people have forgotten the other 5.

Given that the payment of the tax can be deferred it won't really impact people.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/simon-wilsons-election-diary-the-real-impact-of-that-wealth-tax/OFOTPRJDRUAZI6XDFLEZJDUWTA/

Given that it can be deferred it is a return to death duties, albeit with a brand new name, and in a new packet. Hopefully it will be an end to the Kermit party, who unfortunately have evolved into a very red shade of green.
In fact if you mix red and green you will get brown - so perhaps they should change their monika to The Browns.

dobby41
15-10-2020, 08:53 AM
Given that it can be deferred it is a return to death duties, albeit with a brand new name, and in a new packet. Hopefully it will be an end to the Kermit party, who unfortunately have evolved into a very red shade of green.
In fact if you mix red and green you will get brown - so perhaps they should change their monika to The Browns.

Call it what you will.
I doubt that it will end the Greens - they have a place in the electoral landscape.

fungus pudding
15-10-2020, 09:16 AM
Call it what you will.
I doubt that it will end the Greens - they have a place in the electoral landscape.

They certainly should have, and if they reverted to an environmental party they would secure their future, and would be more effective in achieving their original goals.
To have some real clout, they should be a single-issue entity, free to coalesce with either the so called left or right.

Joshuatree
15-10-2020, 09:19 AM
FP having a creative multicoloured cannabis homegrown slang sorta induced moment ?. Give a little when you go.Be a kinder being.

fungus pudding
15-10-2020, 09:24 AM
FP having a creative multicoloured cannabis homegrown slang sorta induced moment ?. Give a little when you go.Be a kinder being.

I plan on giving it all when I go, strangely enough. But it will go where I choose.

BlackPeter
15-10-2020, 10:14 AM
Not sure if any farmers or fishermen would call that small "green tokens" to give to the Greens. Some of their extreme policies would close large parts of both industries, just as they did with Oil & Gas

No doubt - whatever they do, there always will be some whingers. Particularly farmers are great to complain. If it is raining it is too wet, if the sun shines it is too dry, if it is frosty it is too cold and if it is a mild winter it didn't kill enough bugs.

No doubt they won't be happy with any environmental policy. Much better for them if the general public pays for their sins.

I do live in a small rural township in Canterbury and 20 years ago we had the best water in the world. Now the council tries every couple of years to permanently chlorinate the water supply due to several recent e-coli events and the nitrates are too high as well. I wonder whether that's anything to do with the farmers who moved form crop and sheep farming to now putting five cows per hectar (thanks to Lincoln research) and just allow all the cow p*ss and sh*t to drain into the groundwater.

Occasionally the local farmers like as well to smoke the township (sitting on previous farm land they sold to finance their daily champaign breakfast) out by burning their waste no matter how the wind blows. Apparently the crops which used to be in our spot did not complain.

Some of our rural roads are no-go after the local farmers put out fertilizer or whatever other poison they put on their fields and the wind is the wrong way. If you still go there, your eyes will start burning and it is difficult to breath.

Sure - there are good and bad farmers as in any other profession, but we clearly need better environmental rules and regulations - and farmers without tight environmental control are not better than a bankers without financial regulations.

I accept as well that there is a difference between sensible environmental policies and climate actionism. However - our world gets dirties and lots of that is related to irresponsible farming practises. Climate change is real as well (no matter whether the individual believes or not), and we better do something about it.

Lets bring on better environmental protection. We all will gain from it, and the better farmers will thrive by turning the chemical factory they still might operate at the moment into a living farm producing premium ecological products.

BlackPeter
15-10-2020, 10:23 AM
Given that it can be deferred it is a return to death duties, albeit with a brand new name, and in a new packet. Hopefully it will be an end to the Kermit party, who unfortunately have evolved into a very red shade of green.
In fact if you mix red and green you will get brown - so perhaps they should change their monika to The Browns.

Would not make sense - the brown (as in the SA shirts) is already claimed by ACT.

But maybe we should stay a bit more civilised, shouldn't we? The Greens are not brown, and neither is ACT, though I am concerned about the influence of the corrupt NRA and a NZ weapons lobby focussed just on one thing..

Your language is turning extremist, something I would have expected from some of our worst posters, but not from you. Too much Trump?

fungus pudding
15-10-2020, 10:29 AM
Would not make sense - the brown (as in the SA shirts) is already claimed by ACT.

But maybe we should stay a bit more civilised, shouldn't we? The Greens are not brown, and neither is ACT, though I am concerned about the influence of the corrupt NRA and a NZ weapons lobby focussed just on one thing..

Your language is turning extremist, something I would have expected from some of our worst posters, but not from you. Too much Trump?

The suggestion of calling the greens the browns was tongue in cheek. They should simply be known as the Kermits.

BlackPeter
15-10-2020, 10:52 AM
The suggestion of calling the greens the browns was tongue in cheek.

OK - we clearly have a different history and upbringing. Where I am coming from the brown colour in politics is reserved for fascists, same as they tend to call in New Zealand Labour "red" and National "blue".

Anyway - maybe we can reduce the name calling of legitimate, decent and democratic parties and just focus on the issues?

blackcap
15-10-2020, 11:04 AM
Would not make sense - the brown (as in the SA shirts) is already claimed by ACT.



South Auckland? the brown ( as in the SA shirts)

BlackPeter
15-10-2020, 11:24 AM
South Auckland? the brown ( as in the SA shirts)


The color brown was the identifying color of Nazism (and fascism in general), due to its being the color of the SA paramilitaries (also known as Brownshirts).

SA stands for "Sturm Abteilung". Just one of the fascist milizia's. But I am sure you knew that anyway ...

blackcap
15-10-2020, 11:27 AM
SA stands for "Sturm Abteilung". Just one of the fascist milizia's. But I am sure you knew that anyway ...

Actually I did not. I do know what SS stands for but had not come across SA in my readings of history. Cheers for the lesson.

Bjauck
15-10-2020, 11:59 AM
Actually I did not. I do know what SS stands for but had not come across SA in my readings of history. Cheers for the lesson.
I am surprised that your readings did not come across this group. I am not a particular history buff but I have seen on TV - in the 80's and 90's to current days - a few documentaries and films covering the rise of fascism and the rise of Hitler. Prominent was the internal fighting amongst the happy fellows involved and prominent mention of the Night of the Long Knives when Hitler got rid of (i.e. murdered people) the threat he saw in the SA. Ironic when you think the Brown shirts themselves were as thuggish as they came. They met their match in Hitler.

I am from South Auckland. Counties Manukau have different colours. SA is rarely as an acronym for South Auckland. I would take it as signifying South Africa. However context is key.

Sir Ten
15-10-2020, 05:35 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2020-labour-national-slip-minor-parties-greens-nz-first-up-1-news-colmar-brunton-poll/TOT6WQUPJTR6ZOZMNQD5FFIP5Q/

14% still undecided is a big number.

Given the socially unpalatable nature of openly (a) supporting NZF and/or (b) not supporting the incumbent government, is there a twist in the tail?

I don't really understand early voting... why would you vote early, ever, regardless of your pre-election bias?

A hypothetical... let's say politician A from party B does something unconscionable, or is found to have done something unconscionable, relative to your political persuasion in the last week of electioneering? You've voted. Too late. You've drunk the cool-aid.

My working assumption is that those more inclined to have voted early are bent towards the left and the celebrity status of the PM... i.e. they're voting for the person not the policies and the cool-aid has been consumed. It won't matter what he or she has (or hasn't) done, I like "him/her" ipso facto there's no changing my mind.

Fine, but I'm going to put it out there that right-of-centre voters (or Winnie people) are holding back more than the left.

I think this is much tighter than people care to believe (or report).

tim23
15-10-2020, 05:41 PM
As far as being overweight is concerned, there are many factors and causes. Some causes are genetic. Other causes are poverty and lack of education. Some factors are psychological. Lets remember NZ has a lamentably high suicide rate and depression can also be reflected in eating habits. It would have been great if Collins had thrown her weight behind tackling those issues and their root causes. However some of the solutions could be unpalatable to her target electorate?

Agree and looks like she and Gerry have some weight to throw around too!

tim23
15-10-2020, 05:45 PM
Yip - lies work unfortunately.

Tonights poll on One looks grim for Collins, she certainly has picked up on the fake news con!

Norwest
15-10-2020, 06:40 PM
I voted early and I am anything but left leaning in Election 2020.

Nothing could change my opinion that we've had three years of over promising and under delivering. Labour promised the world in 2017 and couldn't deliver on anything that they promised.

What we need to do is to increase New Zealand's productivity... Labour has no idea how to do this.
What we don't need is enormous debt... which is exactly what we will get if Labour gets in.


Here is a wonderful quote from Adrian Rogers

You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving.

The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation.

ynot
15-10-2020, 07:08 PM
I voted early and I am anything but left leaning in Election 2020.

Nothing could change my opinion that we've had three years of over promising and under delivering. Labour promised the world in 2017 and couldn't deliver on anything that they promised.

What we need to do is to increase New Zealand's productivity... Labour has no idea how to do this.
What we don't need is enormous debt... which is exactly what we will get if Labour gets in.


Here is a wonderful quote from Adrian Rogers

You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving.

The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Bang on. Bit of a worry to think there are potentially more people with their hand out than there are contributors.

jonu
15-10-2020, 07:44 PM
Bang on. Bit of a worry to think there are potentially more people with their hand out than there are contributors.

It seems the not many have learnt the story of the little red hen.

moka
15-10-2020, 08:57 PM
I voted early and I am anything but left leaning in Election 2020.

Nothing could change my opinion that we've had three years of over promising and under delivering. Labour promised the world in 2017 and couldn't deliver on anything that they promised.

What we need to do is to increase New Zealand's productivity... Labour has no idea how to do this.
What we don't need is enormous debt... which is exactly what we will get if Labour gets in. Report card: Jacinda Ardern's government graded on the past three years.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/12/report-card-jacinda-arderns-government-graded-on-the-past-three-years
The environment
Grade: C+ Kera Sherwood-OíRegan (Kāi Tahu), a climate justice advocate, and co-founder of social impact agency Activate
Grade: B- David Cormack, a former head of policy and communications for the Green party and co-founder of a public relations firm

Housing
Grade: B Shamubeel Eaqub, a housing economist with Sense Partners
Grade: B+ Morgan Godfery is a writer and political commentator

Covid-19 response
Grade: A Professor Michael Baker, a leading epidemiologist based at the University of Otago, Wellington, who has researched and advised on the Covid-19 pandemic response since January
Grade: A Ben Thomas, a PR consultant and former National government staffer

Poverty
Grade: C+ Susan St John CNZM is an associate professor of economics at University of Auckland Business School and a researcher with Child Poverty Action Group
Grade: B- Andrew Becroft, New Zealandís childrenís commissioner and former principal youth court judge

The economy
Grade: A- Morgan Godfery
Grade: B- (pre-Covid), A- (during Covid), C+ (post-Covid) David Cormack

Health
Grade: A or C, depending on who the patient is Emma Espiner (Ngāti Tukorehe, Ngāti Porou), an award-winning writer, final year medical student and host of the RNZ podcast series Getting Better
Grade: B+ for mental health Shaun Robinson is the chief executive of the Mental Health Foundation

Education
Grade: B+ for secondary school education Jack Boyle, president of the Post-Primary Teachersí Association
Grade: B- for tertiary education Shaun Hendy, a professor of physics at the University of Auckland and director of the centre of research excellence for complex systems and networks, Te Pūnaha Matatini

Panda-NZ-
15-10-2020, 10:01 PM
I voted early and I am anything but left leaning in Election 2020.

Nothing could change my opinion that we've had three years of over promising and under delivering. Labour promised the world in 2017 and couldn't deliver on anything that they promised.


All we had from the blue team was pamphlets for stuff which was not derived from their actions at all. They did nothing too.

The one good thing was the internet.
The assets were sold and we still had debt which is even more incompetent IMO.

Bjauck
16-10-2020, 07:10 AM
Agree and looks like she and Gerry have some weight to throw around too! A pity as all Collins did was to come out with a Trump-like remark.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/judith-collins-blasted-for-saying-obesity-is-a-personal-choice-for-which-people-must-take-responsibility.html

I originally thought that Collins would be a better leader than Bridges...

blackcap
16-10-2020, 07:29 AM
A pity as all Collins did was to come out with a Trump-like remark.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/judith-collins-blasted-for-saying-obesity-is-a-personal-choice-for-which-people-must-take-responsibility.html

I originally thought that Collins would be a better leader than Bridges...

But obesity is a personal choice and you must take responsibility for it. If you are a fat bastard, stop over eating. As Shaun Plunket said on the radio yesterday he lost weight by getting some disciplines around eating. Making sure he drank more water, slept more, also did not have certain foods in the house and exercised more. Its a mind over matter type thing.
I think the majority of NZers feel this way and this is what Collins is saying.

jonu
16-10-2020, 07:36 AM
But obesity is a personal choice and you must take responsibility for it. If you are a fat bastard, stop over eating. As Shaun Plunket said on the radio yesterday he lost weight by getting some disciplines around eating. Making sure he drank more water, slept more, also did not have certain foods in the house and exercised more. Its a mind over matter type thing.
I think the majority of NZers feel this way and this is what Collins is saying.

Doesn't fit the victim narrative that the woke live and breathe.

artemis
16-10-2020, 08:34 AM
Doesn't fit the victim narrative that the woke live and breathe.

Always good to blame someone else or 'the system', especially if it comes with extra taxpayer money. What's not to like?

Bjauck
16-10-2020, 09:09 AM
Always good to blame someone else or 'the system', especially if it comes with extra taxpayer money. What's not to like? Always good to blame the victims for the failings of the system when it suits those who have a vested interest in not changing “the system”?

Bjauck
16-10-2020, 10:06 AM
But obesity is a personal choice and you must take responsibility for it. . Assuming it is not caused by a physical or mental impairment or disease or medication or genes or hormone issues?

If you are a fat bastard, stop over eating. Problem solved. Very beguiling.


As Shaun Plunket said on the radio yesterday he lost weight by getting some disciplines around eating. Making sure he drank more water, slept more, also did not have certain foods in the house and exercised more. Its a mind over matter type thing. . Assuming the "fat bastard" is physically able to exercise, can afford the balanced diet, has a dry and quiet place to sleep, does not have to work extra long hours? Shaun's done it ERGO every other "fat bastard" should and is able to? Is that the logic?

That is not to say what Shaun has done would not work for some people.


I think the majority of NZers feel this way and this is what Collins is saying. The word on the street or from dieticians and nutritionists?

Stumpynuts
16-10-2020, 10:24 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2020-labour-national-slip-minor-parties-greens-nz-first-up-1-news-colmar-brunton-poll/TOT6WQUPJTR6ZOZMNQD5FFIP5Q/
I don't really understand early voting... why would you vote early, ever, regardless of your pre-election bias?


I voted early to free up my weekend and to avoid all the pain in the ass social distancing crap that would have to be followed on election day, nothing to do with bias towards any party

blackcap
16-10-2020, 10:30 AM
I voted early to free up my weekend and to avoid all the pain in the ass social distancing crap that would have to be followed on election day, nothing to do with bias towards any party

Good point, I might get out today if I get the chance. Tomorrow might be chaotic.

fungus pudding
16-10-2020, 10:34 AM
I voted early to free up my weekend and to avoid all the pain in the ass social distancing crap that would have to be followed on election day, nothing to do with bias towards any party

Me too. Did my bit as usual - used my vote in the most effective way against the party I least want.

BlackPeter
16-10-2020, 10:40 AM
I don't really understand early voting... why would you vote early, ever, regardless of your pre-election bias?

A hypothetical... let's say politician A from party B does something unconscionable, or is found to have done something unconscionable, relative to your political persuasion in the last week of electioneering? You've voted. Too late. You've drunk the cool-aid.


Why would anybody wait for the last second? Based on your post I assume you queue up at 6.59 pm election day and check your social media account beforehand to make sure you got all the latest news? Just imagine everybody would do that - pretty stupid, isn't it?

I vote based on past performance (and this is more than the last couple of days) and looking into the future. Which party has the best team? Which party has the (in my view) best policies to solve the big problems facing us? Which party shares my values?

If everybody is doing their homework that way, then they won't need to wait for the celestial inspiration in the polling boot on the last day, but they can make their decision already months or at least weeks ahead (when all the policies are announced), so why not get the voting done and avoid the rush and the infection risk?

PS: I did vote already last Saturday and I am neither affiliated with the Left nor with the Right. I pick always the party which I think is in the relevant situation the best for the country. I voted in the past at times for ACT and National and at times for Green.

BlackPeter
16-10-2020, 03:25 PM
Looks like everybody accepting tomorrows election is sorted. More interesting: Michael Hooton predicts National will be defeated again in 2023:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2020-matthew-hooton-national-set-for-third-defeat-in-2023/2ZPAQOSXJDAJBUDFKQGQKRBZ2U/ (paywalled)

Actually - I think he has a point. National ejected the political middle ground from their ranks and accumulated religious fanatics instead. Not good enough for a party which wants to represent the country (vs. a splitter group). If National does not manage to get rid of the "Christian Taliban", then they will stay for a long time in opposition. No chance for them to come back without supporting liberal ideas.

Adern is just more clever in that regard ... she is not accommodating the left-wing of her party in a way Colins is accomodating the religious right :):

Joshuatree
16-10-2020, 03:45 PM
Makes sense and The Greens sticking around an important partner there for next election too. Judith did receive a bit of a hospital pass which unfortunately for her hasn't lifted her party in the polls a legacy of the entitlement National still hold and that under Bridges no real plan , policies, direction were made. Judith says she will lead the party in opposition but i think for the wrong reason ,personal power. More destruction and bloodletting to come methinks until they renew, rebuild.

ratkin
16-10-2020, 04:51 PM
Makes sense and The Greens sticking around an important partner there for next election too.

The greens can't go wrong, no matter how bad they are they will benefit from the climate change tailwinds. and they are only going to increase.

tim23
16-10-2020, 06:29 PM
I voted early to free up my weekend and to avoid all the pain in the ass social distancing crap that would have to be followed on election day, nothing to do with bias towards any party
Gee - you must be so busy it takes under 5 minutes to vote!!

tim23
16-10-2020, 06:30 PM
It seems the not many have learnt the story of the little red hen.

Tell us Mr Clever...

Bjauck
16-10-2020, 07:21 PM
The greens can't go wrong, no matter how bad they are they will benefit from the climate change tailwinds. and they are only going to increase.
"Drill, Baby, Drill!" will change to "Greens, Comrade, Greens!"

Bjauck
16-10-2020, 07:28 PM
It seems the not many have learnt the story of the little red hen. Is that The Little Red hen that uses community resources to make food and then wants to keep it all for herself?

iceman
17-10-2020, 07:17 AM
I'd like to remind people that today we are not supposed to do any electioneering, by NZ law. This was brought up on this website by the owner a couple of elections ago and I suggest we adhere to it today.
We live in a wonderful democracy people. Have a good weekend :-)

Balance
17-10-2020, 07:59 AM
Maybe the other farm animals had lots of capital gains but did not share them, yet expected the Little Red Hen to share the fruits of her labour? So the Little Red Hen looked for her own land to de the same as them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/123055187/thousands-of-jobs-go-begging-because-unemployed-kiwis-wont-take-them

Have a read of who are the other farm animals.

Balance
17-10-2020, 08:53 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123109155/cherry-grower-and-campervan-company-team-up-to-recruit-pickers

Leave it to private enterprise to come up with solutions.

tim23
17-10-2020, 02:51 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123109155/cherry-grower-and-campervan-company-team-up-to-recruit-pickers

Leave it to private enterprise to come up with solutions.

Agree - its a good idea but it is their business so they need to source labour to pick the cherries, pretty simple really.

Bjauck
18-10-2020, 06:14 AM
I'd like to remind people that today we are not supposed to do any electioneering, by NZ law. This was brought up on this website by the owner a couple of elections ago and I suggest we adhere to it today.
We live in a wonderful democracy people. Have a good weekend :-)
As just about every thread has posts overtly promoting political parties of some sort and can be readily accessed on Election Day - surely the whole site should have been taken down for the duration of Election Day? Just like hoardings and billboards have to be physically removed.

Zaphod
18-10-2020, 07:30 AM
As just about every thread has posts overtly promoting political parties of some sort and can be readily accessed on Election Day - surely the whole site should have been taken down for the duration of Election Day? Just like hoardings and billboards have to be physically removed.

Given that law was cast in 'simpler times', it needs to be revised, especially in light of the vast number of early votes were both encouraged and cast while hoardings, search engine ads, social media ads, tv ads, etc. were still being disseminated.

ynot
18-10-2020, 07:43 AM
Given that law was cast in 'simpler times', it needs to be revised, especially in light of the vast number of early votes were both encouraged and cast while hoardings, search engine ads, social media ads, tv ads, etc. were still being disseminated.
That being said, given the unique circumstances of this election, labour we always going to win this one, irrespective of campaigning rules pre voting day.

Zaphod
18-10-2020, 08:52 AM
That being said, given the unique circumstances of this election, labour we always going to win this one, irrespective of campaigning rules pre voting day.

To be clear, I think the time has passed for a complete moratorium on advertising on election day. We have ready access to information that influences our vote (especially via social media), and many actively seek this out on the day in order to make their decision.

Blue Skies
18-10-2020, 11:03 AM
I think Finance spokesperson Paul Goldsmith's mistakes right at the start of Collins tenure as leader, which immediately undermined National's so called strength & point of difference , managing the economy, & tripped up Judith Collin's momentum dead in its tracks, added significantly to a party which looked a shambles. There is always a honeymoon period around a new leader but Collins was having to defend own goals right from the start.

Sgt Pepper
18-10-2020, 11:49 AM
I live in the Taieri Electorate(previously Dunedin South) I did not vote for the Labour Candidate as I have reservations with a candidate with no local connection being parachuted into a safe seat. I just doesnt sit well with me. What are others opinions?

fungus pudding
18-10-2020, 01:10 PM
I live in the Taieri Electorate(previously Dunedin South) I did not vote for the Labour Candidate as I have reservations with a candidate with no local connection being parachuted into a safe seat. I just doesnt sit well with me. What are others opinions?

Very wise. Mind you, it's an electorate that has always been plagued with dead-beat MPs way back to MacDonell who held it for several terms - and was completely useless; and the minister of speeches, Bill Fraser - and who can forget Clare Curran. Drive around that god-foresaken electorate and it's quite obviously ignored by everybody- including the MPs who have represented the inhabitants. Perhaps with the exception of Cullen who had his hands full with the cheque book.

dobby41
18-10-2020, 03:58 PM
I think Finance spokesperson Paul Goldsmith's mistakes right at the start of Collins tenure as leader, which immediately undermined National's so called strength & point of difference , managing the economy, & tripped up Judith Collin's momentum dead in its tracks, added significantly to a party which looked a shambles. There is always a honeymoon period around a new leader but Collins was having to defend own goals right from the start.

Collins is too polarizing.
She also ran a very negative campaign, not to mention the lies.
How long before they have yet another leader?

dobby41
18-10-2020, 03:59 PM
As just about every thread has posts overtly promoting political parties of some sort and can be readily accessed on Election Day - surely the whole site should have been taken down for the duration of Election Day? Just like hoardings and billboards have to be physically removed.

Voting started over 2 weeks ago yet advertising was allowed then too.
Time has moved on since the rules were put in place.

Bjauck
18-10-2020, 04:04 PM
Voting started over 2 weeks ago yet advertising was allowed then too.
Time has moved on since the rules were put in place. Well of course it has. I agree. I was responding to This post:
I'd like to remind people that today we are not supposed to do any electioneering, by NZ law. This was brought up on this website by the owner a couple of elections ago and I suggest we adhere to it today.
We live in a wonderful democracy people. Have a good weekend :-)

If you cannot make a post seemingly favouring one Party over another - on the day of the election - then what about all the other posts previously made and still available on the site? Surely like election hoardings everything available needs to be removed? In other words the whole site should be taken off-line on the day of the election...

Sgt Pepper
18-10-2020, 09:20 PM
I have spent some time perusing the profiles of new MPs entering Parliament from all parties. Many do have interesting backgrounds and experiences, certainly diverse. One thing I took out was that the baby boomer era in politics is at an end. I would also make the observation that if you are male and over sixty your opinions do not matter nor canvassed, and like Victorian children are to be seen and not heard

Bjauck
19-10-2020, 06:20 AM
I have spent some time perusing the profiles of new MPs entering Parliament from all parties. Many do have interesting backgrounds and experiences, certainly diverse. One thing I took out was that the baby boomer era in politics is at an end. I would also make the observation that if you are male and over sixty your opinions do not matter nor canvassed, and like Victorian children are to be seen and not heard
I totally disagree. The actions our PM has taken in the past six months have been predicated to a large extent on protecting the health of the vulnerable and elderly. So younger NZers will now have the responsibility to rebuild the economy.

If there has been a change, perhaps we have become slightly less of a gerontocracy and younger adults are demanding a greater say in the battles, real and figurative, in which they become the cannon fodder. The young also will have to live with the consequences of environmental damage wrought by the older generations. The consequences are already obvious.

Has there been a decline in the average age of MPs over the years? Perhaps it just seems that way? For example the average of MPs in the UK House of Commons has been about 50 since 1979.

The average age of MPs in Australia is about 51 and this compares with the average age of 48 back in 1901.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/43rdParl

Of course there has been a change in the number of women in politics - as society lifts discriminatory practices.

I guess left wingers tend to be younger and conservative right wingers tend to be older. So a shift left in an election may bring in a younger average age for the MPs.

Stumpynuts
19-10-2020, 07:18 AM
Gee - you must be so busy it takes under 5 minutes to vote!!

Hmmm, would I rather take 5 minutes out of my working week or 5 minutes out of my weekend?

:confused::confused::confused:

And yes - Kids under 5 years old running around the house, cut me some slack buddy :) :cool:


Anybody else blown away by how much Labour actually won by?
We all knew Labour would get in, but just by how much - Presumably nobody expected overwhelming landslide?

ynot
19-10-2020, 07:36 AM
Hmmm, would I rather take 5 minutes out of my working week or 5 minutes out of my weekend?

:confused::confused::confused:

And yes - Kids under 5 years old running around the house, cut me some slack buddy :) :cool:


Anybody else blown away by how much Labour actually won by?
We all knew Labour would get in, but just by how much - Presumably nobody expected overwhelming landslide?
Was interesting how the strong rural typically national electorates decided to give labour the mandate to bypass the greens. Smart voting from the rural sector.

Bjauck
19-10-2020, 07:55 AM
..
Anybody else blown away by how much Labour actually won by?
We all knew Labour would get in, but just by how much - Presumably nobody expected overwhelming landslide?

I thought Labour would get the proportion of votes that they did. Collins seemed to act desperately in the latter stages with an attack approach as opposed to positively promoting National policies.

Labour got 49% of the vote, yet 53% of the seats.

dobby41
19-10-2020, 08:08 AM
I guess left wingers tend to be younger and conservative right wingers tend to be older. So a shift left in an election may bring in a younger average age for the MPs.

Some commentator said last week that they thought people become more right wing as they age.
I seem to be the opposite - as I grow older I recognise the inequalities more and want to eradicate them where possible.

dobby41
19-10-2020, 08:21 AM
Labour got 49% of the vote, yet 53% of the seats.

8% of the vote was wasted on the 'also rans' and gets re-distributed to the others.

fungus pudding
19-10-2020, 08:30 AM
I thought Labour would get the proportion of votes that they did. Collins seemed to act desperately in the latter stages with an attack approach as opposed to positively promoting National policies.

Labour got 49% of the vote, yet 53% of the seats.

They got 49% of the total votes cast, but all parties end up higher than initial count - because ultimately it is the percentage of the effective votes that matters. so the waste votes (those votes for parties that don't make the 5% threshold) are discounted.

Bjauck
19-10-2020, 08:36 AM
8% of the vote was wasted on the 'also rans' and gets re-distributed to the others. I understand the system. I just had not taken into account that my 49% prediction for Labour could bring in 53% of the MPs - that there would be so much of the total vote that would be under the threshold for parliamentary representation.

I think the threshold for party representation in parliament should drop to 2% (or the % needed to bring in two MPs.)

The Labour "Landslide" is under 50% of the vote.

macduffy
19-10-2020, 08:43 AM
I understand the system. I just had not taken into account that my 49% prediction for Labour could bring in 53% of the MPs - that there would be so much of the total vote that would be under the threshold for parliamentary representation. I think the threshold for party representation in parliament should drop to 2% (or the % needed to bring in two MPs.)

Why don't we go the whole hog and give every party two MP's for starters!

;)

Bjauck
19-10-2020, 08:57 AM
Why don't we go the whole hog and give every party two MP's for starters!

;) Why do you think that my suggestion to increase proportional representation of votes warrants a ridiculous suggestion?

macduffy
19-10-2020, 09:03 AM
Why do you think that my suggestion to increase proportional representation of votes warrants a ridiculous suggestion?

Because we could fiddle endlessly with the criteria for representation. Why 2%, why not 1.5% or 3% or 4%?

Bjauck
19-10-2020, 09:12 AM
Because we could fiddle endlessly with the criteria for representation. Why 2%, why not 1.5% or 3% or 4%? NZ's constitution has been a process of evolution, Humans like to improve things. Hence introduction of MMP in the first place.

Of course it could be any of those - time for a review of the original set % threshold along with review of the length of term of parliament.

moka
19-10-2020, 11:25 AM
Anybody else blown away by how much Labour actually won by?
We all knew Labour would get in, but just by how much - Presumably nobody expected overwhelming landslide?

Yes, Jacinda Ardern was blown away by how much Labour actually won, she did not expect it.

Another surprise was the support for the Greens, which generally wasnít picked up by the media Ė Mike Hoskings in this interview with Jacinda Adern on 12 October doubted that the Greens would get back into parliament.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-jacinda-ardern-gets-top-marks-for-clash-with-mike-hosking/6W37IPZDJJRN4XTKIIKIESTX7U/

Balance
19-10-2020, 11:32 AM
Strategic voting by National voters to keep the Greens out - mission accomplished.

moka
19-10-2020, 11:32 AM
Was interesting how the strong rural typically national electorates decided to give labour the mandate to bypass the greens. Smart voting from the rural sector.Certainly some interesting trends re voting in this election.

Election 2020: Labour wins party vote in every South Island electorate.
Nationwide, the only electorates where National lead the party vote were Taranaki-King Country, Waikato, Epsom and Tāmaki.
Labour even lead the party vote in Judith Collins' own electorate of Papakura by a margin of 434 votes.
Despite not leading in the party vote, the National Party still managed to win the Invercargill, Southland, Waitaki, Selwyn, Kaikōura and Waimakariri electorate seats in the South Island.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-labour-wins-party-vote-in-every-south-island-electorate/AR3SSXJWJWPOUPY4NVO42JWRNQ/

Stumpynuts
19-10-2020, 12:00 PM
Be interesting to see how Christopher Luxon gets on in Botany electorate, seeing as Jamie-Lee Ross has been laughed out of the electorate and on national television.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123132433/savage-tova-obrien-interview-of-jamilee-ross-gains-international-audience

tim23
19-10-2020, 07:58 PM
I understand the system. I just had not taken into account that my 49% prediction for Labour could bring in 53% of the MPs - that there would be so much of the total vote that would be under the threshold for parliamentary representation.

I think the threshold for party representation in parliament should drop to 2% (or the % needed to bring in two MPs.)

The Labour "Landslide" is under 50% of the vote.

Under MMP its a landslide!

tim23
19-10-2020, 07:59 PM
Strategic voting by National voters to keep the Greens out - mission accomplished.

Spin it anyway you like National got hammered.

Balance
19-10-2020, 08:08 PM
Spin it anyway you like National got hammered.

No need for spin like the Ď4 legs good, 2 legs betterí brigade continuously deploy - it is what it is, and what a wonderful outcome we have!

BONANZA time ahead for those of us who know how to benefit from the billions of dollars of wasteful spending ahead.

I ❤️ It!

ynot
19-10-2020, 08:14 PM
Spin it anyway you like National got hammered.

Let's see how hot Labour / economy looks once the dust settles and reality bites. Big challenges ahead. Indefinitely closed boarder to name just one.

moka
19-10-2020, 09:05 PM
I have spent some time perusing the profiles of new MPs entering Parliament from all parties. Many do have interesting backgrounds and experiences, certainly diverse. One thing I took out was that the baby boomer era in politics is at an end. I would also make the observation that if you are male and over sixty your opinions do not matter nor canvassed, and like Victorian children are to be seen and not heard
List of 40 new MPs. Seems to be lots of talent, experience and qualifications.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-forty-newcomers-include-our-first-african-latin-american-and-sri-lankan-mps/WAU467WZ6Q2FSJ4MEUOE5BQDSQ/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-forty-newcomers-include-our-first-african-latin-american-and-sri-lankan-mps/WAU467WZ6Q2FSJ4MEUOE5BQDSQ/)
I just looked at the ages of some. Not all have their ages listed. Oldest man = 58 years, oldest woman 52, six aged 32 or younger.
Labour - Ingrid Leary, 52, Arena Williams, 24, Naisi Chen, 26, Steph Lewis, 32,
ACT - Chris Baillie, 58, Brooke van Velden, 27 Dr James McDowall, 32
Greens - Menendez March, 32

moka
19-10-2020, 09:09 PM
World record: New Zealand overtakes the UK's title for the most rainbow Parliament.
Yesterday's preliminary results show there is likely to be 12 openly lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer members of the 120 members sitting in the next Parliament - boosting the rainbow representation from seven last year after Labour swept in after yesterday's election.

Meanwhile the openly rainbow MPs in New Zealand's recently elected Parliament include Labour's incumbents Grant Robertson, Louisa Wall, Meka Whaitiri, Tamati Coffey and Kiri Allan and newcomers Ayesha Verrall, Shanan Halbert and Glen Bennett.
They will be joined by openly LGBTQIA+ Green Party member and spokeswoman for Rainbow issues Jan Logie, Chloe Swarbrick, Elizabeth Kerekere and Ricardo Menendez. About 40 per cent of the Green Party MPs are also from the rainbow community.
Neither Act or National Party currently have any openly gay MPs in their parties.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/world-record-new-zealand-overtakes-the-uks-title-for-the-most-rainbow-parliament/CLEAKIDVKRIOQDF5ZO67EGIDCY/

JBmurc
19-10-2020, 09:57 PM
Let's see how hot Labour / economy looks once the dust settles and reality bites. Big challenges ahead. Indefinitely closed boarder to name just one.

Yes and this time no other partners can't play good cop Bad cop with Winnie .. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Greens brought in to take some heat off Jacindy..

will we see labour go missing on many sectors issues .... like Tourism ??? where was Kelvin ? nowhere to be seen in the resort towns when the SHTF..

many more slogans ...to come "team 5 million" time to pay much more ... as the books aren't going to look pretty going forward unless Labour can get some more going into the coffers .. can't pay for all the promises with more promises

couta1
19-10-2020, 10:03 PM
World record: New Zealand overtakes the UK's title for the most rainbow Parliament.
Yesterday's preliminary results show there is likely to be 12 openly lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer members of the 120 members sitting in the next Parliament - boosting the rainbow representation from seven last year after Labour swept in after yesterday's election.

Meanwhile the openly rainbow MPs in New Zealand's recently elected Parliament include Labour's incumbents Grant Robertson, Louisa Wall, Meka Whaitiri, Tamati Coffey and Kiri Allan and newcomers Ayesha Verrall, Shanan Halbert and Glen Bennett.
They will be joined by openly LGBTQIA+ Green Party member and spokeswoman for Rainbow issues Jan Logie, Chloe Swarbrick, Elizabeth Kerekere and Ricardo Menendez. About 40 per cent of the Green Party MPs are also from the rainbow community.
Neither Act or National Party currently have any openly gay MPs in their parties.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/world-record-new-zealand-overtakes-the-uks-title-for-the-most-rainbow-parliament/CLEAKIDVKRIOQDF5ZO67EGIDCY/ What's your point, why should it matter if Act or National have any openly gay MP's or not, many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive.

ynot
20-10-2020, 05:36 AM
Yes and this time no other partners can't play good cop Bad cop with Winnie .. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Greens brought in to take some heat off Jacindy..

will we see labour go missing on many sectors issues .... like Tourism ??? where was Kelvin ? nowhere to be seen in the resort towns when the SHTF..

many more slogans ...to come "team 5 million" time to pay much more ... as the books aren't going to look pretty going forward unless Labour can get some more going into the coffers .. can't pay for all the promises with more promises

Good point about bringing in the green scapegoat, but as Jacinda has stated, she has been given a mandate to govern and I suspect she understands that obligation clearly. Whether she backs herself to face the hard decisions is my concern.

Balance
20-10-2020, 06:08 AM
Good point about bringing in the green scapegoat, but as Jacinda has stated, she has been given a mandate to govern and I suspect she understands that obligation clearly. Whether she backs herself to face the hard decisions is my concern.

Simple - watch who she appoints as DPM.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 06:34 AM
....
many more slogans ...to come "team 5 million" time to pay much more ... as the books aren't going to look pretty going forward unless Labour can get some more going into the coffers .. can't pay for all the promises with more promisesNot a great time to be in charge of the treasury benches! Will the team of five million be so forgiving after three more years? We will need more than smiles and empathy, tea and sympathy. Tough decisions ahead - winners and losers. Real estate owners are already among the winners; higher income earners among the losers.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 06:42 AM
What's your point, why should it matter if Act or National have any openly gay MP's or not, many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive.
It should be irrelevant. Why do think some people would see it is a positive though?

I would be happy just to have hard working and effective MPs not into conspiracy theories, privileged information leaks and self-promotion.

Balance
20-10-2020, 06:54 AM
Not a great time to be in charge of the treasury benches! Will the team of five million be so forgiving after three more years? We will need more than smiles and empathy, tea and sympathy. Tough decisions ahead - winners and losers. Real estate owners are already among the winners; higher income earners among the losers.

Thereís enough tax loopholes to drive several trucks through for the higher income earners to minimise their taxes.

NZ needs a CGT but we know thatís off the agenda - the Economic non-performance & mess of Cindyís First term is going to get Worse.

fungus pudding
20-10-2020, 07:26 AM
There’s enough tax loopholes to drive several trucks through for the higher income earners to minimise their taxes.



Please let me know what they are.

Balance
20-10-2020, 07:35 AM
Please let me know what they are.

Capital gains, fp.

Seriously, talk to your tax accountant or lawyer.

Hereís one way - true & tried. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/no-tax-for-trade-me-millionaire/AKW6GEETFDSUUBZ36DU2GMOBUI/

fungus pudding
20-10-2020, 08:17 AM
Capital gains, fp.

Seriously, talk to your tax accountant or lawyer.

Here’s one way - true & tried. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/no-tax-for-trade-me-millionaire/AKW6GEETFDSUUBZ36DU2GMOBUI/

You mentioned income tax. Capital gains are not income. Morgan pays next to no tax as he has next to no income. I would like to pay less tax on my income - so what are the loopholes that I could drive a truck through? If you have a serious answer - please let me know, and I'll pass it on to my lawyer and my accountant.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 08:49 AM
What's your point, why should it matter if Act or National have any openly gay MP's or not, many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive. I have read this again. So, far from its being irrelevant, I understand what you are implying now: There are many in the National Party who are either homophobic or wish that if there are any gay National MPs, that they remain in the closet. Is that correct? Is that the Trump/Putin wing of The Party? Are you OK with that for the contemporary National or ACT Party?

Raz
20-10-2020, 09:07 AM
Please let me know what they are.

With balance, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. There are substantial businesses/charities driven by the high net worth people, usually self employed, which allows them to derive a cashflow as a proxy for income yet not taxed. Still its not taxable income. High income for many in this country are wage/salary earners thru the paye system there is very little they can do until they accumulate substantial wealth which takes you back to my first point.

Hot currently is a NGO securing those juicy Govt. contracts by employing some Wellington insiders and perhaps also sell one of you business in there so you can be paid via the cashflow generated against the loan/advanced owed..

Raz
20-10-2020, 09:13 AM
Not a great time to be in charge of the treasury benches! Will the team of five million be so forgiving after three more years? We will need more than smiles and empathy, tea and sympathy. Tough decisions ahead - winners and losers. Real estate owners are already among the winners; higher income earners among the losers.

Why, they can max it for another three years easy, most spending will happen in year 3...

Raz
20-10-2020, 09:20 AM
What's your point, why should it matter if Act or National have any openly gay MP's or not, many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive.

Yeah why do the Greens not attract straight men to their list of MPs....I like the diversity of thought and experience that come from a representative population onto a party list.

couta1
20-10-2020, 09:49 AM
I have read this again. So, far from its being irrelevant, I understand what you are implying now: There are many in the National Party who are either homophobic or wish that if there are any gay National MPs, that they remain in the closet. Is that correct? Is that the Trump/Putin wing of The Party? Are you OK with that for the contemporary National or ACT Party? Conservative voters will be happy with Act and National not having any openly gay MP's, I've had gay friends but I don't support their lifestyle, is that okay or am I not allowed a personal conviction?

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 10:39 AM
Conservative voters will be happy with Act and National not having any openly gay MP's, I've had gay friends but I don't support their lifestyle, is that okay or am I not allowed a personal conviction? Of course you can choose with whom you socialise and have as friends. It depends what not "supporting their lifestyle" means. If it means discrimination in employment and services then it is not OK.

If it means that National Party candidates are selected on whether they appear straight and/or "in", then they are on the wrong side of history.

iceman
20-10-2020, 10:39 AM
Yeah why do the Greens not attract straight men to their list of MPs....I like the diversity of thought and experience that come from a representative population onto a party list.

The Greens are the least representative/diversified party in Parliament :-)

dobby41
20-10-2020, 10:43 AM
The Greens are the least representative/diversified party in Parliament :-)

Or the most representative of what they stand for?

Balance
20-10-2020, 10:47 AM
Of course you can choose with whom you socialise and have as friends. It depends what not "supporting their lifestyle" means. If it means discrimination in employment and services then it is not OK.

If it means that National Party candidates are selected on whether they appear straight and/or "in", then they are on the wrong side of history.

Plenty of skirt chasers in National like Andrew Falloon & Jami Lee Ross instead?

Balance
20-10-2020, 10:48 AM
Or the most representative of what they stand for?

People gravitate towards where they are accepted as equals.

couta1
20-10-2020, 10:50 AM
Of course you can choose with whom you socialise and have as friends. It depends what not "supporting their lifestyle" means. If it means discrimination in employment and services then it is not OK.

If it means that National Party candidates are selected on whether they appear straight and/or "in", then they are on the wrong side of history. No it simply means that I don't personally agree with their lifestyle choice but I accept them as equal human beings.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 11:09 AM
No it simply means that I don't personally agree with their lifestyle choice but I accept them as equal human beings. How they choose to live their life? Do you think being gay is a choice any more than being straight?

Anyway if National Party candidate selection is based on sexuality, then they may well go the way of the Dodo...

couta1
20-10-2020, 11:22 AM
How they choose to live their life? Do you think being gay is a choice any more than being straight?

Anyway if National Party candidate selection is based on sexuality, then they may well go the way of the Dodo... You seem to stretch things out way beyond there original intention like your trying to lead people to accepting that your viewpoint is the only correct one.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 11:30 AM
You seem to stretch things out way beyond there original intention like your trying to lead people to accepting that your viewpoint is the only correct one. I must have misunderstood "choice." I was just trying to understand your view. Anyway, time to get back to discussing the NP.

fungus pudding
20-10-2020, 11:39 AM
How they choose to live their life? Do you think being gay is a choice any more than being straight?



I don't. But I think using the euphemism 'gay' is a choice, and a poor one. They are not 'gay'. They are homosexual.

Balance
20-10-2020, 11:47 AM
I don't. But I think using the euphemism 'gay' is a choice, and a poor one. They are not 'gay'. They are homosexual.

Gay used to be such a lovely word - used to describe someone who is light-hearted, carefree and jolly.

couta1
20-10-2020, 11:47 AM
I don't. But I think using the euphemism 'gay' is a choice, and a poor one. They are not 'gay'. They are homosexual. Agree, having or showing a merry and lively mood does not belong solely to the homosexual/lesbian community, in fact some i have known have been the exact opposite, that is angry/troubled and not at ease.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 12:34 PM
I don't. But I think using the euphemism 'gay' is a choice, and a poor one. They are not 'gay'. They are homosexual.


Perhaps "gay" became a self-identifier to counter-balance others who used pejorative labels as discriminatory put-downs. Maybe it was part of Polari - the code language of British Homosexuals used to avoid discrimination and imprisonment (Homosexuality was deemed unlawful in the British Empire)

Maybe "gay" was used by others pejoratively and then claimed by the LGBTQIA community in the same way the "N" word was reappropriated (to an extent) by African Americans?

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 12:37 PM
I don't. But I think using the euphemism 'gay' is a choice, and a poor one. They are not 'gay'. They are homosexual. Like "straight" is a euphemism for being heterosexual?

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 12:44 PM
Agree, having or showing a merry and lively mood does not belong solely to the homosexual/lesbian community, in fact some i have known have been the exact opposite, that is angry/troubled and not at ease. One third of NZers have had mental distress. The gay rate is twice that. The youth rate and Maori rate are higher than average too.

https://www.cph.co.nz/your-health/mental-illness/

artemis
20-10-2020, 12:53 PM
Like "straight" is a euphemism for being heterosexual?

Then there was the 'confirmed bachelor' euphemism.

fungus pudding
20-10-2020, 01:07 PM
Like "straight" is a euphemism for being heterosexual?

I don't think it is. 'Straight' people don't seem to recoil from being called heterosexual or hetrosexual. 'Straight' is another term but not a euphemism. 'Gay' is definitely a euphemism. I think you will find most homosexual or lesbian people are quite open to being called 'homosexual or lesbian'. They don't find it offensive. But then along came the politically correct do-gooders who have decided their description should be changed to 'gay'. That is offensive. Like the blind who some years ago were pleading to be called 'blind' but couldn't defeat the PC lunatics who insisted they be called 'visually impaired'.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 01:13 PM
Then there was the 'confirmed bachelor' euphemism. My grandmother used to refer to maiden aunts and their "companions". However that could easily have been because of the killing fields of WW1 wiping out many men from that age group.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 01:26 PM
I don't think it is. 'Straight' people don't seem to recoil from being called heterosexual or hetrosexual. 'Straight' is another term but not a euphemism. 'Gay' is definitely a euphemism. I think you will find most homosexual or lesbian people are quite open to being called 'homosexual or lesbian'... I guess heterosexuality between two consenting adults was never illegal in NZ within living memory so was never the description of a proscribed activity.

couta1
20-10-2020, 02:45 PM
I don't think it is. 'Straight' people don't seem to recoil from being called heterosexual or hetrosexual. 'Straight' is another term but not a euphemism. 'Gay' is definitely a euphemism. I think you will find most homosexual or lesbian people are quite open to being called 'homosexual or lesbian'. They don't find it offensive. But then along came the politically correct do-gooders who have decided their description should be changed to 'gay'. That is offensive. Like the blind who some years ago were pleading to be called 'blind' but couldn't defeat the PC lunatics who insisted they be called 'visually impaired'. The whole PC movement has really made modern life much more unpleasant, its just another form of control.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 03:06 PM
The whole PC movement has really made modern life much more unpleasant, its just another form of control.
I guess it does depend on the specific situation, however I think PC “ unpleasantness” is preferable to previous persecution, discrimination and forced control based on, for example, ethnicity, gender and sexuality.

moka
20-10-2020, 08:08 PM
What's your point, why should it matter if Act or National have any openly gay MP's or not, many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive.
It matters because diversity and inclusivity matters. It matters because a group of people who identify as gay are not included or welcome in some groups or organisations. They are judged on matters that are not relevant to their suitability as MPs. If you are gay you are unlikely to get ahead be accepted into organisations with conservative values.

And you say many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive that ACT and National have no openly gay MPs, and implicit in that is that you donít want any of that sort in organisations you belong to. You can have an opinion but when it translates into excluding people it becomes discrimination.

jonu
20-10-2020, 08:21 PM
It matters because diversity and inclusivity matters. ..... They are judged on matters that are not relevant to their suitability as MPs.

Which way would you have it moka? They be judged on their ability as MPs or some other irrelevant matter such as ethnicity or sexual orientation?

The woke Left's logic always crumbles upon itself. One minute they are demanding no discrimination, the next, discriminate. Apparently people of a certain ethnicity or gender all think alike according to the woke mob, hence a need to have all the colors of the rainbow.

It escapes them that this is a racist bigoted view of the world.

couta1
20-10-2020, 08:36 PM
It matters because diversity and inclusivity matters. It matters because a group of people who identify as gay are not included or welcome in some groups or organisations. They are judged on matters that are not relevant to their suitability as MPs. If you are gay you are unlikely to get ahead be accepted into organisations with conservative values.

And you say many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive that ACT and National have no openly gay MPs, and implicit in that is that you don’t want any of that sort in organisations you belong to. You can have an opinion but when it translates into excluding people it becomes discrimination. Whose excluding anyone, until I saw your post i wasn't even aware that those parties had no openly homosexual/lesbian members, but as it so happens I wouldn't vote for a party with a high proportion of members in that position.

justakiwi
20-10-2020, 08:41 PM
So on the one hand you say while you donít approve of their chosen lifestyle, you consider your gay friends your equals - but at the same time you wouldnít vote for a party with a high proportion of homosexual members. If you truly consider homosexuals your equals, why then do you deem them unworthy of your vote?




Whose excluding anyone, until I saw your post i wasn't even aware that those parties had no openly homosexual/lesbian members, but as it so happens I wouldn't vote for a party with a high proportion of members in that position.

couta1
20-10-2020, 08:45 PM
So on the one hand you say while you don’t approve of their chosen lifestyle, you consider your gay friends your equals - but at the same time you wouldn’t vote for a party with a high proportion of homosexual members. If you truly consider homosexuals your equals, why then do you deem them unworthy of your vote? Well it just so happens that the parties with the highest number of homosexual members also stand for a lot of other things i don't agree with, so why would I vote for them?

moka
20-10-2020, 08:59 PM
I don't. But I think using the euphemism 'gay' is a choice, and a poor one. They are not 'gay'. They are homosexual.They choose to use the term gay as in LGBTQIA, and not homosexual. The term ďhomosexualĒ is associated negative stereotypes including deviancy and criminal behaviour, and with lower levels of support for LGBT rights.

justakiwi
20-10-2020, 09:22 PM
That's not what you said. You said you would "never vote for a party with a high proportion of members in that position."

Now you are making ridiculous assumptions about gay people and what they stand for. Just be honest and admit you are a homophobe. You're not fooling anyone.


Well it just so happens that the parties with the highest number of homosexual members also stand for a lot of other things i don't agree with, so why would I vote for them?

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 09:27 PM
Which way would you have it moka? They be judged on their ability as MPs or some other irrelevant matter such as ethnicity or sexual orientation?

The woke Left's logic always crumbles upon itself. One minute they are demanding no discrimination, the next, discriminate. Apparently people of a certain ethnicity or gender all think alike according to the woke mob, hence a need to have all the colors of the rainbow.

It escapes them that this is a racist bigoted view of the world.
The negative discrimination/affirmative action conundrum? When does affirmative action to overcome the results of generations of discrimination itself become destructive discrimination.

couta1
20-10-2020, 09:42 PM
That's not what you said. You said you would "never vote for a party with a high proportion of members in that position."

Now you are making ridiculous assumptions about gay people and what they stand for. Just be honest and admit you are a homophobe. You're not fooling anyone. You haven't been back long but I reckon it may be time to take a break, your aggro slipper is showing. PS-Im no homophobe but I did vote National which is actually what this thread is meant to be about. PPS- I'm not making assumptions I know what these people believe on what I consider important.

justakiwi
20-10-2020, 09:54 PM
The thread is about National, but it had side tracked into a discussion on homosexuality long before I arrived.

And yes, I am well aware that coming back was a bad idea.


You haven't been back long but I reckon it may be time to take a break, your aggro slipper is showing. PS-Im no homophobe but I did vote National which is actually what this thread is meant to be about.

jonu
20-10-2020, 10:04 PM
They choose to use the term gay as in LGBTQIA, and not homosexual. The term “homosexual” is associated negative stereotypes including deviancy and criminal behaviour, and with lower levels of support for LGBT rights.

Here's Dave Chappelle's view. Guaranteed to offend while you laugh your arse off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ysLUKiTbE

jonu
20-10-2020, 10:06 PM
Here's Dave Chappelle's view. Guaranteed to offend while you laugh your arse off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ysLUKiTbE

Best line? Black guy asks why he can say nigger and not faggot? Told it's because he's not gay. "Well I'm not a nigger either!"

couta1
20-10-2020, 10:15 PM
The thread is about National, but it had side tracked into a discussion on homosexuality long before I arrived.

And yes, I am well aware that coming back was a bad idea. Just remember this forum is like the matrix, it's a parallel universe of reality that isn't real.

Bjauck
20-10-2020, 10:37 PM
Just remember this forum is like the matrix, it's a parallel universe of reality that isn't real. Sums it up beautifully!

fungus pudding
20-10-2020, 10:40 PM
They choose to use the term gay as in LGBTQIA, and not homosexual. The term “homosexual” is associated negative stereotypes including deviancy and criminal behaviour, and with lower levels of support for LGBT rights.

Rubbish. To you perhaps, but not to me or any other English speaking adult.

Minerbarejet
21-10-2020, 07:27 AM
I suppose all this gay/homosexual stuff will come to an end eventually through attrition of the exponents.

I would be extremely reluctant to participate if any party tries to make it compulsory.

ynot
21-10-2020, 07:42 AM
I suppose all this gay/homosexual stuff will come to an end eventually through attrition of the exponents.

I would be extremely reluctant to participate if any party tries to make it compulsory.

compulsory. That could be complicated.

Bjauck
21-10-2020, 07:56 AM
I suppose all this gay/homosexual stuff will come to an end eventually through attrition of the exponents.

I would be extremely reluctant to participate if any party tries to make it compulsory. That would certainly turn the tables from previously making heterosexuality compulsory!

Hetero-sexual activity naturally produces more Homo-sexual people each generation. "Attrition" will only occur if Humans over-populate (through heterosexual or laboratory reproduction) our globe and continue to destroy the environment to the extent that it cannot sustain human life (the next mass extinction event?) and then both heterosexual and homosexual people would be affected.

fungus pudding
21-10-2020, 08:09 AM
That would certainly turn the tables from previously making heterosexuality compulsory!


When was that compulsory? ?......Never mind. I'll play along on a voluntary basis.

Bjauck
21-10-2020, 08:18 AM
Rubbish. To you perhaps, but not to me or any other English speaking adult. How can you speak for every other English speaker? I know some who still reserve a disapproving tone when they utter "homosexual" or an even more disapproving tone when using the more pejorative "homo." The terms were and are often associated with condemnation, deviancy and of course criminality until 1986 reform.

After 1885 until reform, British law classified any homosexual activity as punishable gross indecency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Law_Amendment_Act_1885

Bjauck
21-10-2020, 08:23 AM
When was that compulsory? ?......Never mind. I'll play along on a voluntary basis. Fair enough. It was either heterosexual activity or compulsory abstinence. Humans are sexual - homosexuality was illegal.

couta1
21-10-2020, 09:33 AM
So the National thread is now the Homosexual/Lesbian thread, made that way by some pushing their own agendas, devoting too much time to the off market section is like a dog chasing its tail, spinning around but going nowhere.

fungus pudding
21-10-2020, 09:39 AM
How can you speak for every other English speaker? I know some who still reserve a disapproving tone when they utter "homosexual" or an even more disapproving tone when using the more pejorative "homo." The terms were and are often associated with condemnation, deviancy and of course criminality until 1986 reform.

After 1885 until reform, British law classified any homosexual activity as punishable gross indecency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Law_Amendment_Act_1885

Yes. I'm sure most know the recent history of homosexual law reform. I am also sure adults generally know the meaning of the simple term, homosexual; I accept there will be the odd exception, but that applies to every word in the dictionary.
Some of us find euphemisms are cringe inducing. e.g I shudder when I hear someone has 'passed' or 'passed away' when we all know they have died. It's similarly offensive.

RupertBear
21-10-2020, 09:50 AM
So the National thread is now the Homosexual/Lesbian thread, made that way by some pushing their own agendas, devoting too much time to the off market section is like a dog chasing its tail, spinning around but going nowhere.

I am not sure what agenda you think people are pushing couta :confused: And you did engage on the topic more than once when you stated you do not support people who “choose the gay lifestyle”

What exactly is the gay lifestyle? :confused: And how does it differ from your lifestyle choice? :confused:

https://medium.com/an-injustice/to-people-who-disagree-with-the-gay-lifestyle-a8b11b821244

Sgt Pepper
21-10-2020, 09:52 AM
Back to Politics. I would like to make some observations about the next 3 years.
The most significant challenge in the Health service confronting the new government next year will not be covid. It will be a protracted strike action from the NZ Nurses Organisation. The conditions and salary expectations will come up against a government needing to restrain all spending. It will be fraught to say the least. It will be a winter of discontent.
Long term I think there is a reasonable probability that Jacinda Ardern will step down as PM, my prediction is that around December 2022 she will announce this, replicating John Key in 2016

couta1
21-10-2020, 10:04 AM
I am not sure what agenda you think people are pushing couta :confused: And you did engage on the topic more than once when you stated you do not support people who “choose the gay lifestyle”

What exactly is the gay lifestyle? :confused: And how does it differ from your lifestyle choice? :confused:

https://medium.com/an-injustice/to-people-who-disagree-with-the-gay-lifestyle-a8b11b821244 An agenda of PC correctness, one i cannot be bothered with, I can watch my dog chasing his tail if I so wish, I don't need to get sucked into the same behaviour myself which I did this time.

Bjauck
21-10-2020, 10:20 AM
So the National thread is now the Homosexual/Lesbian thread, made that way by some pushing their own agendas, devoting too much time to the off market section is like a dog chasing its tail, spinning around but going nowhere.
True. EVERYBODY has an agenda of some sort. However I think you gave it a good deal of encouragement...


What's your point, why should it matter if Act or National have any openly gay MP's or not, many who are entitled to their opinion will see that as a positive. (My highlighting.)

couta1
21-10-2020, 10:37 AM
True. EVERYBODY has an agenda of some sort. However I think you gave it a good deal of encouragement...

(My highlighting.) Look I'm not going to apologize for my viewpoint which comes from my Christian stance, I don't have any animosity toward those that are of the community we are talking about so I'm going to finish up on the subject now, continue on if you so wish.