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Bjauck
21-10-2020, 10:38 AM
Yes. I'm sure most know the recent history of homosexual law reform. I am also sure adults generally know the meaning of the simple term, homosexual; I accept there will be the odd exception, but that applies to every word in the dictionary.
Some of us find euphemisms are cringe inducing. e.g I shudder when I hear someone has 'passed' or 'passed away' when we all know they have died. It's similarly offensive.

You are pretty optimistic that most know the recent history of law reform.

I don't like euphemisms but I ask an American for the location of "the rest room" not because I want a little nap. Stateside, asking for the toilet can get a bit of a shocked reaction and water closet and lavatory elicits a bit of puzzlement.

I regard "gay" used in relational to "homosexual" as I regard "loo", "rest room" or "bathroom" in relation to a lavatory or latrine. It is a term with accepted local currency.

jonu
21-10-2020, 10:42 AM
The negative discrimination/affirmative action conundrum? When does affirmative action to overcome the results of generations of discrimination itself become destructive discrimination.

No, more the competence versus racist conundrum.

Bjauck
21-10-2020, 10:47 AM
Look I'm not going to apologize for my viewpoint which comes from my Christian stance, I don't have any animosity toward those that are of the community we are talking about so I'm going to finish up on the subject now, continue on if you so wish. I did not ask for or expect an apology.

Being gay and christian are not necessarily mutually exclusive?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_clergy_in_Christianity


Edit: I am spending more time on the offmarket forum currently as I am housebound with more spare time!

moka
21-10-2020, 09:47 PM
Yes. I'm sure most know the recent history of homosexual law reform. I am also sure adults generally know the meaning of the simple term, homosexual; I accept there will be the odd exception, but that applies to every word in the dictionary.
Some of us find euphemisms are cringe inducing. e.g I shudder when I hear someone has 'passed' or 'passed away' when we all know they have died. It's similarly offensive.It depends on the context. I say “I am sorry to hear your mother passed away.”
I would not say “I’m sorry to hear your mother died” to anyone. "Died" is too blunt in many situations.
Death is a very sensitive subject and any discussion if not handled with understanding can cause distress to someone else who is still grieving a loved one.

moka
21-10-2020, 09:58 PM
Just remember this forum is like the matrix, it's a parallel universe of reality that isn't real.
What people call reality is usually perception, a way of understanding or interpreting something.

Cognitive biases (there are 100s) are systematic ways in which humans create subjective social reality that deviates from objective reality.
Perception deviates too far from reality when it shifts from mild illusion to delusion, e.g. conspiracy theories.

fungus pudding
22-10-2020, 07:20 AM
It depends on the context. I say “I am sorry to hear your mother passed away.”
I would not say “I’m sorry to hear your mother died” to anyone. "Died" is too blunt in many situations.
Death is a very sensitive subject and any discussion if not handled with understanding can cause distress to someone else who is still grieving a loved one.

That is ridiculous.

justakiwi
22-10-2020, 07:25 AM
That's interesting moka. I feel the exact opposite. I would rather someone directly acknowledged that my loved one has died rather than "passed away." I also feel very uncomfortable using the expression myself when offering my sympathies to someone in person or written in a card. I just find "passed away" distasteful. Maybe it is a religious thing? I am not religious and don't believe in life after death, so for me "died" makes more sense than "passed away" does. Maybe people who do believe in life after death reflect that with this expression?


It depends on the context. I say “I am sorry to hear your mother passed away.”
I would not say “I’m sorry to hear your mother died” to anyone. "Died" is too blunt in many situations.
Death is a very sensitive subject and any discussion if not handled with understanding can cause distress to someone else who is still grieving a loved one.

fungus pudding
22-10-2020, 07:38 AM
That's interesting moka. I feel the exact opposite. I would rather someone directly acknowledged that my loved one has died rather than "passed away." I also feel very uncomfortable using the expression myself when offering my sympathies to someone in person or written in a card. I just find "passed away" distasteful. Maybe it is a religious thing? I am not religious and don't believe in life after death, so for me "died" makes more sense than "passed away" does. Maybe people who do believe in life after death reflect that with this expression?

You are right. 'Passed away' is distasteful.

Zaphod
22-10-2020, 07:46 AM
You are right. 'Passed away' is distasteful.

I don't like "passed away" either, but I don't get in a twist about it when people use the term. There are far too many other exciting opportunities to become offended!

Balance
22-10-2020, 07:52 AM
It depends on the context. I say “I am sorry to hear your mother passed away.”
I would not say “I’m sorry to hear your mother died” to anyone. "Died" is too blunt in many situations.
Death is a very sensitive subject and any discussion if not handled with understanding can cause distress to someone else who is still grieving a loved one.

It is entirely appropriate and shows a high level of sensitivity & care for the feelings of the bereaved when offering condolences to people who are religious to use ‘passed away’ - as almost all religions believe in an afterlife.

fungus pudding
22-10-2020, 08:03 AM
It is entirely appropriate and shows a high level of sensitivity & care for the feelings of the bereaved when offering condolences to people who are religious to use ‘passed away’ - as almost all religions believe in an afterlife.

Religious or not - we all know what died means, and I do not believe anyone (with the very odd exception) finds it offensive; - rather they think that the party they are speaking to will find it offensive.
On the other hand 'passed away' is a horrible and offensive term to me and many others.

Balance
22-10-2020, 08:22 AM
Religious or not - we all know what died means, and I do not believe anyone (with the very odd exception) finds it offensive; - rather they think that the party they are speaking to will find it offensive.
On the other hand 'passed away' is a horrible and offensive term to me and many others.

Up to the parties who offer you & many others then to be aware of that sentiment and offer their condolences accordingly, surely?

Meanwhile, up to you & the many others to appreciate that many many others who are religious prefer 'passed away' and you should show care & consideration accordingly?

fungus pudding
22-10-2020, 08:48 AM
Up to the parties who offer you & many others then to be aware of that sentiment and offer their condolences accordingly, surely?

Meanwhile, up to you & the many others to appreciate that many many others who are religious prefer 'passed away' and you should show care & consideration accordingly?

It has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

dobby41
22-10-2020, 08:53 AM
Up to the parties who offer you & many others then to be aware of that sentiment and offer their condolences accordingly, surely?

Meanwhile, up to you & the many others to appreciate that many many others who are religious prefer 'passed away' and you should show care & consideration accordingly?

I think I agree with your thrust - if the condolence is given in a heartfelt manner then it should be taken accordingly.
They may not know that you have certain trigger words that offend.

macduffy
22-10-2020, 09:06 AM
I've given up trying to workout what this discussion has got to do with the title of the thread.

:mellow:

couta1
22-10-2020, 09:10 AM
I've given up trying to workout what this discussion has got to do with the title of the thread.

:mellow: You and me both.

dobby41
22-10-2020, 09:18 AM
I've given up trying to workout what this discussion has got to do with the title of the thread.

:mellow:

Nothing at all but National are as boring as bat sh!t so the space needs something remotely interesting - and I say remotly.

fungus pudding
22-10-2020, 09:49 AM
You and me both.

Me too - and I started it!

Bjauck
22-10-2020, 10:13 AM
Me too - and I started it!
Well it started with an analysis of how many LGBT MPs there were representing the NP. Whether that was good or bad. Then someone objected to the term "Gay" claiming it was an unnecessary euphemism. And then someone's interpretation of Christianity was added.

To be honest, my interpretation of Christianity is that it is based on love and socialism predicated on "The meek shall inherit the Earth" and "It is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

couta1
22-10-2020, 10:26 AM
Well it started with an analysis of how many LGBT MPs there were representing the NP. Whether that was good or bad. Then someone objected to the term "Gay" claiming it was an unnecessary euphemism. And then someone's interpretation of Christianity was added.

To be honest, my interpretation of Christianity is that it is based on love and socialism predicated on "The meek shall inherit the Earth" and "It is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" You may want to take a quick read of Rom 1:26-32 to bring a bit of balance to your interpretation of Christianity.

fungus pudding
22-10-2020, 10:46 AM
Well it started with an analysis of how many LGBT MPs there were representing the NP. Whether that was good or bad. Then someone objected to the term "Gay" claiming it was an unnecessary euphemism. And then someone's interpretation of Christianity was added.

To be honest, my interpretation of Christianity is that it is based on love and socialism predicated on "The meek shall inherit the Earth" and "It is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

And my interpretation is that Christianity caters for a group of people who believe that Christ is or was God; or is the son of God. All wholly improbable - even if there is a God.

Balance
22-10-2020, 10:49 AM
It has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Absolutely everything to do with religion - if one believes in the afterlife as most religions do, then this earthly life is but a passing phase - hence ‘passed away’.

Hindus for eg use the term ‘change body’ samsara when someone dies.

Bjauck
22-10-2020, 10:58 AM
You may want to take a quick read of Rom 1:26-32 to bring a bit of balance to your interpretation of Christianity.
The passage relates to lust not the romantic love between people of the same sex.

I would be surprised if a single MP has not contravened at least one verse, proverb or commandment in the Christian bible.

Actually I think the socialist aspect is more relevant to a discussion on the National Party.
Matthew 19:21

Blue Skies
22-10-2020, 02:36 PM
Somehow the farce that remains of the current National Party has infected & contaminated this thread.

tim23
22-10-2020, 09:16 PM
Somehow the farce that remains of the current National Party has infected & contaminated this thread.

I think the Nats nearly passed away on Saturday on life support at best.

couta1
22-10-2020, 09:26 PM
I think the Nats nearly passed away on Saturday on life support at best. As Arnie said " I'll be back" and so will the Nats, very cyclical this business as you would know,

RupertBear
22-10-2020, 09:39 PM
I think the Nats nearly passed away on Saturday on life support at best.

Funny! :lol:

And regarding the discussion re using the term “passed away” or “dead“ I use both. On the whole I tend to reflect the word the persons family use back to them as that way I know I am using words they are comfortable with.

As a medical person I probably have a bias towards using the word dead and that is the word I use in talking about my mother and my father who have died. But I know some people are not comfortable with the word especially when a person has died suddenly or unexpectantly and I respect that. Sometimes it takes a while for people to process that a loved one is gone so they might refer to a person as having passed away early on in the process but once they have accepted the person is gone they are able to refer to them as having died.

Anyway thats been my experience of things :)

Stumpynuts
23-10-2020, 08:09 AM
Funny! :lol:

And regarding the discussion re using the term “passed away” or “dead“ I use both. On the whole I tend to reflect the word the persons family use back to them as that way I know I am using words they are comfortable with.

As a medical person I probably have a bias towards using the word dead and that is the word I use in talking about my mother and my father who have died. But I know some people are not comfortable with the word especially when a person has died suddenly or unexpectantly and I respect that. Sometimes it takes a while for people to process that a loved one is gone so they might refer to a person as having passed away early on in the process but once they have accepted the person is gone they are able to refer to them as having died.

Anyway thats been my experience of things :)


What about 'deceased' or 'Terminated' - In an Arnie voice?

fungus pudding
23-10-2020, 08:20 AM
What about 'deceased' or 'Terminated' - In an Arnie voice?

I quite like carked.

Jay
23-10-2020, 09:23 AM
I quite like carked.
:) I have a mate who uses that word, not to a close relative though and the Nats have hardly carked it to keep the comment on thread, though it could be said they had a good go at it in recent months, which did not help their cause.

jonu
23-10-2020, 09:39 AM
I think the Nats nearly passed away on Saturday on life support at best.

Maybe so tim23. The worm will turn. Remember the Blair days in the UK? The Left gobbled up the Centre Right, much like the Clark regime here. Then came Key who gobbled it back. The only question is how many terms? And how much damage will they wreak in the meantime?

Blue Skies
23-10-2020, 10:06 AM
Maybe so tim23. The worm will turn. Remember the Blair days in the UK? The Left gobbled up the Centre Right, much like the Clark regime here. Then came Key who gobbled it back. The only question is how many terms? And how much damage will they wreak in the meantime?


Quite probably at some stage in future, but there's a major difficulty National are facing for 2023 & that's a perceived lack of talent in their severely diminished caucus.
One of the biggest reasons Labour completely annihilated National & just won by a record is that most NZers could not see the remaining National MP's as a viable government, too many mistakes, too much scandal, too much infighting, not enough diversity, lacking cohesion, boring old crusty and stale.
Somehow they have to refresh & rebuild into a group which looks like representing the board interests of the country and being a viable government.
The problem is how to do that with the remaining uninspiring bunch theyre left with.

The one possible outlier I see to this is Chris Luxton who has excellent media presentation skills but would voters see a first term MP as a viable PM in 2023?

RupertBear
23-10-2020, 10:11 AM
I quite like carked.

:lol: Personally I love the word carked but wouldnt use it in a conversation with someone outside of my immediate family and friends :D

couta1
23-10-2020, 10:18 AM
:lol: Personally I love the word carked but wouldnt use it in a conversation with someone outside of my immediate family and friends :D Popped his clogs is a good one and then there is Shuffle off this mortal coil for the more refined.

Bjauck
23-10-2020, 10:34 AM
I quite like carked.I like Gone burger and turn up your toes. Sleeping with the fishes or sleeping with the angels are good depending on how good or young the person was....

fungus pudding
23-10-2020, 10:41 AM
Popped his clogs is a good one and then there is Shuffle off this mortal coil for the more refined.

and hard to beat 'kicked the bucket'.

jonu
23-10-2020, 10:43 AM
I like Gone burger and turn up your toes. Sleeping with the fishes or sleeping with the angels are good depending on how good or young the person was....

I thought "Sleeping with the fishes" applied to those from NJ with Sicilian connections!

Bjauck
23-10-2020, 10:55 AM
I thought "Sleeping with the fishes" applied to those from NJ with Sicilian connections! I think that was the origin...sometimes with concrete shoes. (building had a lot of mafia involvement)

Popping your clogs is probably of Northern English origin.

https://www.mariecurie.org.uk/blog/where-do-death-sayings-come-from/259120

ynot
23-10-2020, 11:33 AM
I quite like carked.

Back to cark.. it comes from the word Khak.. which means dirt, dust, etc. the word Khaki is also from the same root, meaning the colour of dust, or the colour of the dirt/mud, in Hindi. So the term to 'cark it' derives from 'dust to dust, ashes to ashes' referring to death..

Joshuatree
23-10-2020, 11:49 AM
Int origin thanks.I was thinking maybe carked meant dying in a parked car.
Pushing up daisies and Croaked others and maybe "fallen off their perch " fits Nationals current situ.

jonu
23-10-2020, 11:55 AM
Quite probably at some stage in future, but there's a major difficulty National are facing for 2023 & that's a perceived lack of talent in their severely diminished caucus.
One of the biggest reasons Labour completely annihilated National & just won by a record is that most NZers could not see the remaining National MP's as a viable government, too many mistakes, too much scandal, too much infighting, not enough diversity, lacking cohesion, boring old crusty and stale.
Somehow they have to refresh & rebuild into a group which looks like representing the board interests of the country and being a viable government.
The problem is how to do that with the remaining uninspiring bunch theyre left with.

The one possible outlier I see to this is Chris Luxton who has excellent media presentation skills but would voters see a first term MP as a viable PM in 2023?

You fail to mention Covid! Even Cindy called it the Covid Election and made damn sure of it with her 1pm propaganda slots. I very much doubt she will bother post election to be there on a daily basis if there is another lockdown. No votes to be won. No point in ramping up the fear and propaganda without an election on the horizon.

I don't think it had much to do with National's talent pool. Labour's is a puddle, but the Nats leadership struggles and infighting certainly didn't help.

couta1
23-10-2020, 12:39 PM
You fail to mention Covid! Even Cindy called it the Covid Election and made damn sure of it with her 1pm propaganda slots. I very much doubt she will bother post election to be there on a daily basis if there is another lockdown. No votes to be won. No point in ramping up the fear and propaganda without an election on the horizon.

I don't think it had much to do with National's talent pool. Labour's is a puddle, but the Nats leadership struggles and infighting certainly didn't help. Those Communist style repetitive Covid adds had me wondering if I was living in Russia, people were brainwashed by clever marketing.

Stumpynuts
23-10-2020, 01:01 PM
You fail to mention Covid! Even Cindy called it the Covid Election and made damn sure of it with her 1pm propaganda slots. I very much doubt she will bother post election to be there on a daily basis if there is another lockdown. No votes to be won. No point in ramping up the fear and propaganda without an election on the horizon.

I don't think it had much to do with National's talent pool. Labour's is a puddle, but the Nats leadership struggles and infighting certainly didn't help.


For me - Michelle Boag's filthy face all over the tv turned me off of National having any chance whatsoever.

Bjauck
23-10-2020, 01:24 PM
Those Communist style repetitive Covid adds had me wondering if I was living in Russia, people were brainwashed by clever marketing.
Isn't Russia more fascist than communist these days? Surely capitalist America finely tuned the marketing, advertising and product placement brainwashing.

RupertBear
23-10-2020, 03:09 PM
Back to cark.. it comes from the word Khak.. which means dirt, dust, etc. the word Khaki is also from the same root, meaning the colour of dust, or the colour of the dirt/mud, in Hindi. So the term to 'cark it' derives from 'dust to dust, ashes to ashes' referring to death..

Thanks for that ynot, very interesting :)

tim23
23-10-2020, 08:15 PM
You fail to mention Covid! Even Cindy called it the Covid Election and made damn sure of it with her 1pm propaganda slots. I very much doubt she will bother post election to be there on a daily basis if there is another lockdown. No votes to be won. No point in ramping up the fear and propaganda without an election on the horizon.

I don't think it had much to do with National's talent pool. Labour's is a puddle, but the Nats leadership struggles and infighting certainly didn't help.

Clearly voters enjoyed the 1pm information slots apart from you and Balance.

moka
23-10-2020, 09:08 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/vaughan-gunson-assessing-the-2020-election-through-risks-rewards-lens/G7QOYRQH75CFTLJUWBAKZ4YEBM/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/vaughan-gunson-assessing-the-2020-election-through-risks-rewards-lens/G7QOYRQH75CFTLJUWBAKZ4YEBM/)
National must reduce its reliance on the conservative vote of property-owning, generally older New Zealanders. It's a voter base that isn't growing.
National will need to make policy concessions to young people. Which means getting serious about climate change, public transport, and housing affordability, and maybe even moderating its go-to-policy of tax cuts for the well-off. The wealth gap is too large in New Zealand, and younger voters know this.

moka
23-10-2020, 09:21 PM
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-10-2020/for-national-umpteen-tough-questions-and-one-small-ray-of-light/
The National Party is undertaking a review of its campaign. Presumably this will not be to determine the cause of its historic defeat.
The cause is well known. The cause screams out from the pages of The New York Times, The Economist, The Guardian, The Sydney Morning Herald. The cause haunts the dreams of National’s vastly reduced caucus of 34. The cause is Jacinda.

More specifically, it is the relationship the prime minister formed with the public during the first lockdown, and the promise of stable and secure leadership through three years of unknown dangers as Covid continues to wreak havoc on the world’s economy and population.

That should focus the party on the real question: knowing the tide was going out, did it bring in enough new talent, from different backgrounds? The answer is almost certainly no.

dobby41
29-10-2020, 09:27 AM
That should focus the party on the real question: knowing the tide was going out, did it bring in enough new talent, from different backgrounds? The answer is almost certainly no.

You only need to look at the current leadership for that - no diversity of look or thinking - the voters that they resonate with is reducing.
It was cringe-worthy for them to talk about their strong team and experience.

Balance
29-10-2020, 09:31 AM
You only need to look at the current leadership for that - no diversity of look or thinking - the voters that they resonate with is reducing.
It was cringe-worthy for them to talk about their strong team and experience.

Relative to the Cindy's team of incompetents (Kelvin Davis at 3 and Phil Twitford at 4), Collins' team beats them hands down. This is the sad commentary on the state of NZ.

ynot
29-10-2020, 09:54 AM
Relative to the Cindy's team of incompetents (Kelvin Davis at 3 and Phil Twitford at 4), Collins' team beats them hands down. This is the sad commentary on the state of NZ.

Agreed, bloody shambles.

moka
29-10-2020, 11:17 AM
Relative to the Cindy's team of incompetents (Kelvin Davis at 3 and Phil Twitford at 4), Collins' team beats them hands down. This is the sad commentary on the state of NZ.So who are the competents in the National Party in your opinion? It is easy to focus on how bad Labour are but voters didn’t see much in the way of electable talent in the National Party. Most of the talent resigned or was voted out. The stale pale males like Gerry Brownlee and Nick Smith have gone.

Panda-NZ-
30-10-2020, 07:19 PM
Gerry, Paul goldsmith, Judy.. a motley crew for sure.

Only 8 out of 35 MPs are women (!).

ynot
30-10-2020, 07:23 PM
Only 8 out of 35 MPs are women.

So what. Diversity for diversity sake.

fungus pudding
30-10-2020, 07:27 PM
Only 8 out of 35 MPs are women.

So what. Diversity for diversity sake.

Only 8 out of 35 women are women.

ynot
30-10-2020, 08:14 PM
Only 8 out of 35 women are women.

Now that's what I call diversity!

Panda-NZ-
30-10-2020, 08:23 PM
1 in 2 voters are women and they will not be too pleased with this next time.

ynot
30-10-2020, 09:03 PM
1 in 2 voters are women and they will not be too pleased with this next time.

What's your point Panda. Since woman have had the the vote I presume they voted on merrit. Now they are voting on gender ?

iceman
31-10-2020, 06:22 AM
1 in 2 voters are women and they will not be too pleased with this next time.

About the same ratio as the Greens, except they have it the other way around. Is that a problem too ?

Bjauck
31-10-2020, 06:41 AM
About the same ratio as the Greens, except they have it the other way around. Is that a problem too ?

I think it is broadly accepted that younger people tend to support the left wing and that younger females tend to support the left wing than younger men? https://theconversation.com/young-women-are-more-left-wing-than-men-study-reveals-95624

So a National Party having fewer female MPs and fewer younger MPs would seem appropriate for its supporter base.

I picture the Parties as desserts - the National Party would be a spotted dick, Labour would be tiramisu and the Greens would be a fruit cocktail.

moka
31-10-2020, 08:22 AM
I think it is broadly accepted that younger people tend to support the left wing and that younger females tend to support the left wing than younger men? https://theconversation.com/young-women-are-more-left-wing-than-men-study-reveals-95624

So a National Party having fewer female MPs and fewer younger MPs would seem appropriate for its supporter base.

I picture the Parties as desserts - the National Party would be a spotted dick, Labour would be tiramisu and the Greens would be a fruit cocktail.Interesting how the article shows that religion plays a strong role in how women vote.

The analysis shows that the decline of religiosity is crucial to explaining the trend. Older women are more religious and their religiosity is also more important for their vote choice compared to younger women. Religious voters are more likely to hold conservative social values and attachments to religious parties. This means that older women are more likely to vote for parties on the right – especially Christian democrat parties. Similarly, they are less likely to vote for parties on the left.

On the other hand, younger women tend to have a stronger preference for redistribution and see a larger role for the state compared to men.

Older women are also more left wing in their economic policy preferences compared to men, but their greater religiosity trumps these preferences when it comes to their vote choice.

fungus pudding
31-10-2020, 08:33 AM
Interesting how the article shows that religion plays a strong role in how women vote.

It shows nothing of the sort. It merely claims it. How the author of the article links the gullible, demonstrated by their belief of invisible sky people, to their political leanings is anyone's guess.

justakiwi
31-10-2020, 08:45 AM
Not sure that I agree with this moka. I actually think a lot of older people, women included, have either softened their religious stance on things, or have ditched religion altogether. Religion certainly played no part in my decision.


Interesting how the article shows that religion plays a strong role in how women vote.

The analysis shows that the decline of religiosity is crucial to explaining the trend. Older women are more religious and their religiosity is also more important for their vote choice compared to younger women. Religious voters are more likely to hold conservative social values and attachments to religious parties. This means that older women are more likely to vote for parties on the right – especially Christian democrat parties. Similarly, they are less likely to vote for parties on the left.

On the other hand, younger women tend to have a stronger preference for redistribution and see a larger role for the state compared to men.

Older women are also more left wing in their economic policy preferences compared to men, but their greater religiosity trumps these preferences when it comes to their vote choice.

Bjauck
31-10-2020, 08:47 AM
...
Older women are also more left wing in their economic policy preferences compared to men, but their greater religiosity trumps these preferences when it comes to their vote choice. So any decline in the role of religion may mean more Vanessa Redgrave's and Jane Fonda's!

fungus pudding
31-10-2020, 09:15 AM
So any decline in the role of religion may mean more Vanessa Redgrave's and Jane Fonda's!
More of their what?

Bjauck
31-10-2020, 12:32 PM
More of their what?
More of their ilk!

fungus pudding
31-10-2020, 01:24 PM
More of their ilk!

So it appears you meant more Vanessa Redgraves and Jane Fondas.
Most readers are not mind readers.

justakiwi
31-10-2020, 01:29 PM
He means strong, intelligent women with principles, who are not afraid to stand up for what they believe in. He would much prefer they/we stuck to our kitchen, bedroom and Church “duties.”


So it appears you meant more Vanessa Redgraves and Jane Fondas.
Most readers are not mind readers.

moka
31-10-2020, 02:00 PM
It shows nothing of the sort. It merely claims it. How the author of the article links the gullible, demonstrated by their belief of invisible sky people, to their political leanings is anyone's guess.
I guess you did not read the article which says:
The analysis shows that the decline of religiosity is crucial to explaining the trend. This is shown in a study using data on over 40,000 people from the World Values Survey (http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs.jsp)/European Values Study (http://www.europeanvaluesstudy.eu/) in Western Europe and Canada, 1989-2014.

https://theconversation.com/young-women-are-more-left-wing-than-men-study-reveals-95624

moka
31-10-2020, 02:12 PM
Not sure that I agree with this moka. I actually think a lot of older people, women included, have either softened their religious stance on things, or have ditched religion altogether. Religion certainly played no part in my decision.Sorry you aren’t old enough yet. They are talking about women born before 1955, so 65 and older. Just thinking about people I know I think the trend is stronger with women in their 70s and older.

fungus pudding
31-10-2020, 02:12 PM
He means strong, intelligent women with principles, who are not afraid to stand up for what they believe in. He would much prefer they/we stuck to our kitchen, bedroom and Church “duties.”
He meant precisely what I wrote above. Not the possessive version he wrote.
Nor did he mean the tripe you wrote.

Bjauck
31-10-2020, 03:44 PM
He means strong, intelligent women with principles, who are not afraid to stand up for what they believe in.
If by "He" you are referring to me, then, yes, that is sort of what I was referring to. That is not to say that there are not also intelligent strong principled women of various faiths who stand up for what they believe and who may support the National Party.


He would much prefer they/we stuck to our kitchen, bedroom and Church “duties.” What?Au contraire mon amie. It beats me how you could infer that. I can only suppose that you think I am like a hard right Archie Bunker and Alf Garnett from the 1960's.

Bjauck
31-10-2020, 03:50 PM
So it appears you meant more Vanessa Redgraves and Jane Fondas.
Most readers are not mind readers. That is an impossibility - unless you have just developed human cloning and circumvented any ethical concerns...;)

I meant Women pursuing traditionally left-wing social causes, so, women of Vanessa Redgrave's and Jane Fonda's ilk.

fungus pudding
31-10-2020, 04:50 PM
That is an impossibility - unless you have just developed human cloning and circumvented any ethical concerns...;)

I meant Women pursuing traditionally left-wing social causes, so, women of Vanessa Redgrave's and Jane Fonda's ilk.

Yes. I had finally worked out what you meant. Now I'm trying to work out why!:confused::confused::eek2:

Bjauck
31-10-2020, 07:28 PM
Yes. I had finally worked out what you meant. Now I'm trying to work out why!:confused::confused::eek2: It was perhaps a slightly flippant comment :D and had related to the finding of religiosity and right-wing political inclination in older women and the potential change in that as the modern era progresses.

My apologies to Justakiwi for any offence caused. It was not intended.

moka
10-11-2020, 11:53 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123350020/shane-reti-becomes-new-deputy-leader-of-the-national-party
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123350020/shane-reti-becomes-new-deputy-leader-of-the-national-party)
Shane Reti has become the new deputy leader of the National Party, in a meteoric rise up the party’s ranks.
After Gerry Brownlee resigned from the deputy leadership job on Friday, the party met on Tuesday morning to hold a confidence vote on the leadership. Leader Judith Collins has retained her position, unopposed.
Reti was appointed deputy leader by the party’s MPs, and was unopposed in his run for the position.
He lost the Whangārei electorate at the counting of the special votes on Friday, but retained his seat in Parliament due to his high list ranking in the party.
Matt Doocey has been chosen as the party’s new senior whip, and Maureen Pugh the deputy whip.

moka
10-11-2020, 02:26 PM
A country united in response to the Covid-19 pandemic and “shenanigans” within the National Party are two key reasons Father of the House Dr Nick Smith believes his party lost the 2020 election.

The “shenanigans” in the National Party over the past three years could not be ignored.
“We had too many own goals whether it was issues with the Jami-Lee Ross, Hamish Walkers, the Andrew Falloons and what occurred in Auckland Central – all of them detracted from [the view of National] as competent managers,” Smith said. “My view is also the retirements that we had also contributed to a lack of confidence in the ability for National to go forward.

“Firstly, it is my view the New Zealand National Party needs stability and unity,” he said. “If changes in leadership was the answer, National would have easily won the election. We need to lock in behind Judith Collins for stability. Secondly, we need to have a very robust review, both of the party and of campaign 2020.”
“It was a Labour king tide – or perhaps I should call it a queen tide, a queen red tide that got us.”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123337222/nick-smith-reflects-on-why-national-was-hammered-in-the-election

moka
11-11-2020, 11:22 PM
National has so few MPs that everyone got a portfolio in this reshuffle.
National's list:


1. Judith Collins: Leader; spokesperson for national security and intelligence; Pacific peoples; technology, manufacturing and artificial intelligence
2. Shane Reti: health; children including Oranga Tamariki and child poverty reduction
3. Andrew Bayly: shadow treasurer; revenue; infrastructure; statistics
4. Michael Woodhouse: finance; transport; deputy shadow leader of the house
5. Louise Upston: Social development and employment; social investment; Whānau Ora; land information
6. Todd McClay: economic development; small business; consumer affairs; tourism, associate Pacific peoples
7. Simon Bridges: justice; water; Pike River re-entry; Māori-Crown relations
8. Chris Bishop: Covid-19 response; shadow leader of the House
9. Melissa Lee: broadcasting and digital media; digital economy; communications; ethnic communities
10. Scott Simpson: environment, workplace relations, RMA environment
11. David Bennett: agriculture, horticulture, biosecurity
12. Paul Goldsmith: education
13. Mark Mitchell: public service, SOE, sport and recreation
14. Barbara Kuriger: energy and resources; rural communities; food safety, associate transport
15. Gerry Brownlee: foreign Affairs; NZSIS and GCSB; associate finance
16. Nicola Willis: RMA housing; housing and urban development including social; associate economic development
17. Stewart Smith: climate change and viticulture
18. Jacqui Dean: conservation; assistant speaker of the house
19. Todd Muller: trade and export growth,
20. Simeon Brown: police, corrections, SFO; youth
21. Matt Doocey: chief whip; mental health; associate social development and employment; associate health
22. Maureen Pugh: junior whip; community and voluntary sector; emergency management
23. Nick Smith: research and science; electoral reform
24. Chris Penk: shadow attorney-general; defence; courts; veterans
25. Simon O'Connor: customs; arts, culture and heritage; associate foreign affairs
26. Erica Stanford: immigration; early childhood education
27. Ian McKelvie: seniors; forestry; racing; disability issues
28. Tim van de Molen: oceans and fisheries; animal welfare; building and construction
29. Nicola Grigg: women; associate trade; associate arts, culture and heritage
30. Christopher Luxon: local government; iwi development; associate transport
31. Joseph Mooney: Treaty negotiations; associate defence; associate tourism
32. Penny Simmonds: tertiary education; associate agriculture; associate disability issues
33. Simon Watts: ACC; associate health


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/430347/national-party-leader-judith-collins-reveals-caucus-reshuffle