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View Full Version : MMP time is up, what a farce!



Baa_Baa
24-09-2017, 06:45 PM
When a minor party that 92.5% of the voting population did NOT vote for, still gets to choose who the major party is that will form government, you know that MMP is a farce.

Time for a referendum, get rid of MMP, it's a broken system!

couta1
24-09-2017, 06:50 PM
When a minor party that 92.5% of the voting population did NOT vote for, still gets to choose who the major party is that will form government, you know that MMP is a farce.

Time for a referendum, get rid of MMP, it's a broken system! It was always a broken system and I for one never voted for it, fringe elements having the ability to hold the country to ransom is a crime.

fungus pudding
24-09-2017, 06:53 PM
It was always a broken system and I for one never voted for it, fringe elements having the ability to hold the country to ransom is a crime.

SMP is the answer.

waikare
25-09-2017, 07:37 AM
When a minor party that 92.5% of the voting population did NOT vote for, still gets to choose who the major party is that will form government, you know that MMP is a farce.

Time for a referendum, get rid of MMP, it's a broken system!

Yes the system is broken, all the MPs from both Greens and NZ First are all list MPs not one was elected on the night outright, and it appears they now will have a big say in how country will be run for the next three years. Is that fair,,,,,,,,,

t.rexjr
25-09-2017, 07:53 AM
Time for a referendum, get rid of MMP, it's a broken system!

There was a referendum and stupid won...

minimoke
25-09-2017, 07:55 AM
I'll take my contrarian view. This is what MMP is all about. It is about ensuring those that can secure 5% or more of the vote (or a seat) get a voice in parliament. We have to get over this "but you didn't win a seat so have no mandate" rubbish - that is not what MMP is about.

And that is a good thing - even if we dont like the views being expressed. Negotiations after an election are always on the cards - have we not learnt anything in 21 years. That people like Maori are stupid enough not to see this (loosing Te ururoa a prime example) and the totally stupid Greens who seem hell bent on staying in opposition with their stupid rules is a function of the failure of their constituencies to see how MMP work.

We always knew one party is likely to influence the final formation of government. If that party got over 5% that does not make them a fringe party - it makes them a significant influencer. But not the leader of the government.

NZ First isnt holding the country to ransom - they (and the Greens) are just going through processes that will see the formation of our next government. That's what MMP is all about. We aren't in a First Past the Post enviroment so really after 21 years time to move on from that mentality.

iceman
25-09-2017, 08:12 AM
It is interesting to see the different and more mature approach in Germany where they've just voted overnight in a MMP election. Merkel and her sister party with approximately 33% combined are hailed as winners and she has undisputed authority to try to put together a Government.

minimoke
25-09-2017, 08:34 AM
It is interesting to see the different and more mature approach in Germany where they've just voted overnight in a MMP election. Merkel and her sister party with approximately 33% combined are hailed as winners and she has undisputed authority to try to put together a Government.
Perhaps because the alternative is next top ranked 4 parties (CPD 20.6, AFD12.8, FDP10.6 and Die Linke on 9.1%) trying to stitch together a coalition would be a nonsense.

Imagine National and Labour (as the top two polling parties) forming a coalition - that ain't going to happen for as long as we have this Left vs Right mentality

Beagle
25-09-2017, 08:48 AM
Can I throw in a curved ball here for debate. Would a N.Z. Frist / Labour / Greens coalition have the moral authority to govern ? Nearly 50% of the population didn't vote for any of those parties. I think if we end up getting this sort of coalition then MMP is a farce. Surely the party with the biggest share of the vote should have the preemptive right to form a government ?

fungus pudding
25-09-2017, 09:01 AM
Can I throw in a curved ball here for debate. Would a N.Z. Frist / Labour / Greens coalition have the moral authority to govern ? Nearly 50% of the population didn't vote for any of those parties. I think if we end up getting this sort of coalition then MMP is a farce. Surely the party with the biggest share of the vote should have the preemptive right to form a government ?

And that is precisely the way the voters will see it. Winston will play around, but his negotiating will simply be to frighten National so as to extract the maximum baubles - but he knows full well he'll have to go with National to avoid a reolt. The difference between Nat votes and Labour votes is too big.

Aaron
25-09-2017, 09:08 AM
Seems OK to me FPP was like a democratically elected dictatorship with nearly half the country not needing to bother voting if they lived in an electorate not aligned with their political ideology. National might have to provide some concessions to Winston but both parties need to do what is best for their supporters or risk losing them. Way better than the old system.

Sad that TOP didn't even get halfway to 5%, never mind fear and greed won the day. Seems appropriate for this site. I see Gareth Morgan suggested a Greens National coalition (I don't think National could afford the loss of their farming voter base). maybe Gareth is a bit politically na´ve he should have targeted some marginal electorate seats. No one likes ACT's policies yet they have a voice in Parliament.

All politicians from all parties are in Parliament, I would hope to make NZ a better place for everyone. It is just their ideas how this is achieved that is different.

Rep
25-09-2017, 09:12 AM
It is interesting to see the different and more mature approach in Germany where they've just voted overnight in a MMP election. Merkel and her sister party with approximately 33% combined are hailed as winners and she has undisputed authority to try to put together a Government.

Hmmmm not sure about mature... noting that the third ranked party, Alternative for Germany (AfD) secured 13% of the vote and sees the return of the far-right to the Bundestag for the first time in 50 years.

minimoke
25-09-2017, 09:20 AM
. Surely the party with the biggest share of the vote should have the preemptive right to form a government ?In NZ, thats not how MMP works - we dont have those kind of rules. Any party has the right to try and form a government and that's not a bad thing. However its the party that goes to the governor general and says we can command the support of the majority of the house that's gets to be government - and tin practice lead it.

So given majority of people voted for Labour plus Greens Plus NZ first shouldn't we have a government that represents that majority?

That said I am not sure what would happen if NZ First decides it could reach a coalition agreement with both Labour (and greens) and National. I dont know who gets first dibs in that kind of unlikely scenario. I presume Labour or National woudlnt allow that as part of their base terms of agreement.

Rep
25-09-2017, 09:21 AM
Can I throw in a curved ball here for debate. Would a N.Z. Frist / Labour / Greens coalition have the moral authority to govern ? Nearly 50% of the population didn't vote for any of those parties. I think if we end up getting this sort of coalition then MMP is a farce. Surely the party with the biggest share of the vote should have the preemptive right to form a government ?

A Labour/NZ First/Greens coalition with 61 seats (potentially another with the specials*) has to find a speaker (Trevor Mallard will be putting both hands up for that job) as well as hang on with a slim one seat majority for the next 3 years - likely to be a Labour/NZ First cabinet with a Green confidence and supply deal (no Ministerial roles) as they have their colours firmly pinned to their masthead. Losing one or two MPs over the next 3 years to byelection (death/resignation/sacking), waka-jumping to the other side makes that precarious... although no party has managed re-election with NZF as a coalition partner - it's the Kiss of Death to date...

* Specials have previously gone to the left leaning parties - although advance voting looked strongly to National so I think we all need to wait and see what happens in two weeks... Winston will be...

I'd note that we have a unicameral parliament - no senate or president and under FPP, the executive had total control via the government - MMP does provide some safeguards to prevent the sort of unfettered authority and retrospective legislation by press release that we endured during the 70s - we should be glad that it does in many ways.

fungus pudding
25-09-2017, 09:23 AM
In NZ, thats not how MMP works - we dont have those kind of rules. Any party has the right to try and form a government and that's not a bad thing. However its the party that goes to the governor general and says we can command the support of the majority of the house that's gets to be government - and tin practice lead it.

So given majority of people voted for Labour plus Greens Plus NZ first shouldn't we have a government that represents that majority?



But the majority voted for National plus Winston First.

minimoke
25-09-2017, 09:23 AM
No one likes ACT's policies yet they have a voice in Parliament.
You would deprive Epsom the right to have an elected representative? 0.5% of voters like ACT policies relative to the other decisions that had to be made. Like ensuring National got a decent party vote.

minimoke
25-09-2017, 09:24 AM
But the majority voted for National plus Winston First.
No matter how its cut and sliced the combined majority of voters will be represented in the next government.

ratkin
25-09-2017, 09:28 AM
But the majority voted for National plus Winston First.

Virtually everyone who did not vote national voted for a change. So Labour/Green/NZfirst were the biggest block

blackcap
25-09-2017, 09:34 AM
Virtually everyone who did not vote national voted for a change. So Labour/Green/NZfirst were the biggest block

Sort of agree, but half the NZ First voters would be National if NZ first did not exist. THe Left block or change in govt block was/is Labour and Green. And they do not have the majority by a long way. IN fact they together even lack National.

Aaron
25-09-2017, 09:40 AM
You would deprive Epsom the right to have an elected representative? 0.5% of voters like ACT policies relative to the other decisions that had to be made. Like ensuring National got a decent party vote.

No not at all well done national and Act and if you could guarantee ACT winning Epsom you could also support ACT with your party vote in the hope David Seymour can bring in a second or third MP.

I can't believe how thick the lefties in Epsom are. Surely there should be no electorate votes for Labour or the Greens candidates in Epsom. They can still give their party vote to the left but they should all be voting National for the electorate vote.

If they could get the National man voted in ACT is a goner.

fungus pudding
25-09-2017, 09:47 AM
No not at all well done national and Act and if you could guarantee ACT winning Epsom you could also support ACT with your party vote in the hope David Seymour can bring in a second or third MP.

I can't believe how thick the lefties in Epsom are. Surely there should be no electorate votes for Labour or the Greens candidates in Epsom. They can still give their party vote to the left but they should all be voting National for the electorate vote.

If they could get the National man voted in ACT is a goner.

That would be a bad thing. Act has consistently promoted some damn good ideas.

blackcap
25-09-2017, 09:48 AM
No not at all well done national and Act and if you could guarantee ACT winning Epsom you could also support ACT with your party vote in the hope David Seymour can bring in a second or third MP.

I can't believe how thick the lefties in Epsom are. Surely there should be no electorate votes for Labour or the Greens candidates in Epsom. They can still give their party vote to the left but they should all be voting National for the electorate vote.

If they could get the National man voted in ACT is a goner.

Yeah I was chuckling at how many votes D. Parker got in Epsom. But the left do not help themselves either. They could refuse to stand a candidate. Although that may not change much.... those voting Labour or Green probably still would not know to vote Goldsmith or whatever his name is.

minimoke
25-09-2017, 09:54 AM
That would be a bad thing. Act has consistently promoted some damn good ideas.Hopefully David Seymour will be able to use his time in opposition and away from National to get more air time for those ideas.

Baa_Baa
25-09-2017, 10:54 AM
Yes the system is broken, all the MPs from both Greens and NZ First are all list MPs not one was elected on the night outright, and it appears they now will have a big say in how country will be run for the next three years. Is that fair,,,,,,,,,

That is just SO WRONG! Unelected party members from a minor party with only 7.5% of the nationwide party votes gets to choose the major party that forms a government.

MMP is seriously flawed, it's a farce, get rid of it.

iceman
25-09-2017, 11:07 AM
That is just SO WRONG! Unelected party members from a minor party with only 7.5% of the nationwide party votes gets to choose the major party that forms a government.

MMP is seriously flawed, it's a farce, get rid of it.

Even though unlikely, I sincerely hope that National gain 1 seat from the special votes. That would remove Winston's choice to the Left and force him to support National or another election called, where NZF would be wiped out.

iceman
25-09-2017, 11:11 AM
Hmmmm not sure about mature... noting that the third ranked party, Alternative for Germany (AfD) secured 13% of the vote and sees the return of the far-right to the Bundestag for the first time in 50 years.

This is happening all over Europe, including Scandinavia, as a result of failed immigration policies over many years.

Raz
25-09-2017, 11:36 AM
This is happening all over Europe, including Scandinavia, as a result of failed immigration policies over many years.

I would say the same thing here on a smaller scale...Peters is the only anti-immigration party

Raz
25-09-2017, 11:37 AM
That is just SO WRONG! Unelected party members from a minor party with only 7.5% of the nationwide party votes gets to choose the major party that forms a government.

MMP is seriously flawed, it's a farce, get rid of it.

Not really..get an actual majority and you have no issue.

couta1
25-09-2017, 11:52 AM
Not really..get an actual majority and you have no issue. That would just be FPP in disguise, so no need for MMP aye.

Bjauck
25-09-2017, 11:53 AM
Can I throw in a curved ball here for debate. Would a N.Z. Frist / Labour / Greens coalition have the moral authority to govern ? Nearly 50% of the population didn't vote for any of those parties. I think if we end up getting this sort of coalition then MMP is a farce. Surely the party with the biggest share of the vote should have the preemptive right to form a government ?But over 50% did. Under FPP, a party could have had well under 50% support yet have a very comfortable majority of seats. Was that fair for the majority of voters who did not vote for that party?

Raz
25-09-2017, 11:58 AM
But over 50% did. Under FPP, a party could have had well under 50% support yet have a very comfortable majority of seats. Was that fair for the majority of voters who did not vote for that party?

Another alternative is a minority government and Peters sit on the cross benches...if you have the endurance... may well gain more by skinning the Government cat each and every time they need support:-)

artemis
25-09-2017, 12:27 PM
Another alternative is a minority government and Peters sit on the cross benches...if you have the endurance... may well gain more by skinning the Government cat each and every time they need support:-)

Labour or National would have to agree, presumably with some accommodations locked in. If there is no agreement from either party a new election would be likely, and voters would punish NZF.

fungus pudding
25-09-2017, 12:39 PM
But over 50% did. Under FPP, a party could have had well under 50% support yet have a very comfortable majority of seats. Was that fair for the majority of voters who did not vote for that party?

Definitely not. Wherre I live there was little point in voting at all unless yuou voted Labour. . In FPP days the Labour party won all seats every time, in spite of the fact they put up completely useless candidates. e.g. Brian MacDonnel who held his seat for over 20 years, and I doubt if anyone remembers him. It's still the same with Curran, who took over from the equally useless Benson-Pope; totally useless but guaranteed to win every time. At least MMP for all its faults gives me a say.

Adam H
25-09-2017, 12:55 PM
I find it odd how some people think Winston has a moral obligation to side with National. Surely his moral obligation is to form a government that best represents the interests of the people who voted for him? His main policies are reducing immigration and looking after people on super. National likes lots of immigration and wants to raise the eligible age for super, so National and NZF certainly arn't made for each other.

I voted for Green but i am not really hoping for a Labour-NZF-Green government, as it would probably not work that well, and would almost certainly get voted out after a term of doing not much of anything. However, if National don't stroke Winstons ego enough if could happen!

Beagle
25-09-2017, 01:13 PM
Sort of agree, but half the NZ First voters would be National if NZ first did not exist. THe Left block or change in govt block was/is Labour and Green. And they do not have the majority by a long way. IN fact they together even lack National.

I think you Sir have made an excellent point. A left coalition fails on moral grounds right there in this hounds opinion.
If a left leaning coalition do clobber together some sort of deal and start making early tax changes, (despite Ms Ardern promising to hold off until after the next election nd the results of a so called tax working group's tax review, taxpayers reactions could be very "interesting". New Taxes revolt anyone ?
http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/its-not-enough/ar-AAspPpX?li=AAaeXZz&ocid=spartandhp

Aaron
25-09-2017, 02:54 PM
I'd prefer a National/NZF coalition govt. Financial crisis just around the corner. Govt. of the day will get the blame and also there is no point bringing in a capital gains tax when everything is highly priced. You will only create tax deductible losses.

Baa_Baa
26-09-2017, 07:45 PM
Watching the major party's prostitute themselves to NZF makes me sick to my stomach. Both party's forfeiting the deputy leader position today, before the real negotiations even begin. Negotiation via the media putting NZF in the kingmaker position is sickening, MMP must go, it's a farce. This election and the formation of the next government will prove it, either way.

Baa_Baa
26-09-2017, 07:59 PM
Finally, someone in the media is talking straight, obviously picked up on sentiment ;)

"Has MMP had its run".

I say YES to that!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97255443/has-mmp-had-its-run

couta1
26-09-2017, 08:00 PM
Watching the major party's prostitute themselves to NZF makes me sick to my stomach. Both party's forfeiting the deputy leader position today, before the real negotiations even begin. Negotiation via the media putting NZF in the kingmaker position is sickening, MMP must go, it's a farce. This election and the formation of the next government will prove it, either way. Unfortunately 51% of voters gave MMP the tick over FPP if I remember right, perhaps another vote would see it chucked out after the latest fiasco has run it's course. Shame the Greens are too pigheaded to do a deal with National and shut Winston out completely, looks a far better coalition than one that includes the kingmaker calling the shots way out of proportion with his vote tally.

bullfrog
26-09-2017, 09:40 PM
Shame the Greens are too pigheaded to do a deal with National and shut Winston out completely, looks a far better coalition than one that includes the kingmaker calling the shots way out of proportion with his vote tally.

Absolutely agree, and all it will take is a slight move by National (or Labour) into the green space to make the Greens go the same way as the Maori party. I think there are signs Jacinda is making that move already.

fungus pudding
26-09-2017, 09:45 PM
Unfortunately 51% of voters gave MMP the tick over FPP if I remember right, perhaps another vote would see it chucked out after the latest fiasco has run it's course. Shame the Greens are too pigheaded to do a deal with National and shut Winston out completely, looks a far better coalition than one that includes the kingmaker calling the shots way out of proportion with his vote tally.

Greens are riddled with socialist cancer like Jacinda. Laughable to think they could side with National. SM is the way to go tto avoid current situation where the decision who will govern will ignore the highest vote and leave the choice in one man's hands.
Remember Peter Shirtcliffe and his campaign?

Baa_Baa
08-10-2017, 10:46 AM
"It's a very strange situation. That's because MMP is a very strange system."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11929786

Get rid of MMP, it's broken and must be replaced.

fungus pudding
08-10-2017, 10:52 AM
"It's a very strange situation. That's because MMP is a very strange system."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11929786

Get rid of MMP, it's broken and must be replaced.

Sad to see the end note, that it's Rodney's last column. Pity because he makes a lot of sense.

BlackPeter
08-10-2017, 01:01 PM
"It's a very strange situation. That's because MMP is a very strange system."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11929786



"It's a fatal flaw of MMP that two weeks on we still don't have a result"

Yes, this is ridiculous, but how is this the fault of MMP? It it is the fault of a brain dead New Zealand made system of special treatment for "special votes" which need to be apparently hand carried after the election day to the respective electorate to be counted. Other countries with MMP have postal voting instead and it is the responsibility of the voter to make sure that their letter arrives prior to election day at the counting place. Easy. In Germany they know the election results on election night, despite using MMP as well.

"With MMP the politicians decide the Government, not us.
More particularly, it's up to Winston Peters. He gets to decide whether Bill English or Jacinda Ardern will be prime minister. He gets to decide whether National or Labour will be in Government."

Well, not quite so. It is only the dumbness, inflexibility and immaturity of other NZ Parties which gives Winnie First this power. It's not MMP's fault. If we look back at the German example and apply the NZ results, than possible governments could look like: National/Labour (a grand coalition), National / Green, Labour / NZF / Green, National / NZF; All possible under MMP and all representing a majority of the voters. Great system - requiring though some maturity, negotiation skills and readiness to compromise.

The good thing about MMP is that majority and minority interests are considered. Under FPP it was one party representing less than 50% of the votes taking it all with the licence to behave like a dictatorship for the next 3 years.

I prefer MMP.

Do your homework Rodney ... or just go home. Not writing this column would have added to your reputation, but it is too late now.

janner
09-10-2017, 12:26 AM
[QUOTE=BlackPeter;687611

Do your homework Rodney ... or just go home. Not writing this column would have added to your reputation, but it is too late now.[/QUOTE]

Uncalled for snide remarks like this do nothing for your reputation either IMPO...

Absolute144
22-10-2017, 03:56 PM
Watching the major party's prostitute themselves to NZF makes me sick to my stomach. Both party's forfeiting the deputy leader position today, before the real negotiations even begin. Negotiation via the media putting NZF in the kingmaker position is sickening, MMP must go, it's a farce. This election and the formation of the next government will prove it, either way.


Well, Bill didnt prostitute hard enough. I'd have much rather seen a two party coalition than this 3 headed monster.

Absolute144
22-10-2017, 03:58 PM
Watching the major party's prostitute themselves to NZF makes me sick to my stomach. Both party's forfeiting the deputy leader position today, before the real negotiations even begin. Negotiation via the media putting NZF in the kingmaker position is sickening, MMP must go, it's a farce. This election and the formation of the next government will prove it, either way.


Well, Bill didnt offer hard enough. I'd have much rather seen a two party coalition than this 3 headed monster.

iceman
22-10-2017, 05:33 PM
Well, Bill didnt offer hard enough. I'd have much rather seen a two party coalition than this 3 headed monster.

I disagree. National had some lines in the sand that they were not willing to cross and totally reasonably stuck to their guns on issues Jacinda rolled over on. She and Labour were desperate and ready to give away just about anything Winston wanted, which included treating The Greens like a door mat which they deserve and seem to like !
National did the right thing. It is better to regroup in a strong parliamentary opposition and watch this mess unfold.

Baa_Baa
22-10-2017, 06:54 PM
I disagree. National had some lines in the sand that they were not willing to cross and totally reasonably stuck to their guns on issues Jacinda rolled over on. She and Labour were desperate and ready to give away just about anything Winston wanted, which included treating The Greens like a door mat which they deserve and seem to like !
National did the right thing. It is better to regroup in a strong parliamentary opposition and watch this mess unfold.

+1 that iceman, nicely put.

ari
23-10-2017, 01:23 PM
I disagree. National had some lines in the sand that they were not willing to cross and totally reasonably stuck to their guns on issues Jacinda rolled over on. She and Labour were desperate and ready to give away just about anything Winston wanted, which included treating The Greens like a door mat which they deserve and seem to like !
National did the right thing. It is better to regroup in a strong parliamentary opposition and watch this mess unfold.

Totally agree....

JBmurc
23-10-2017, 02:35 PM
I disagree. National had some lines in the sand that they were not willing to cross and totally reasonably stuck to their guns on issues Jacinda rolled over on. She and Labour were desperate and ready to give away just about anything Winston wanted, which included treating The Greens like a door mat which they deserve and seem to like !
National did the right thing. It is better to regroup in a strong parliamentary opposition and watch this mess unfold.

Exactly and it was always going happen .... I just knew once Jacinda took over the ruddless Labour ship they would have a very good chance to win under MMP system(losers group together) .... then after election night I was 90% sure of it .... Bill is no teflon "john Key " Jacinda + Greens + labour party were all extremely desperate and old Winne knew it and took full advanatge of it ...

Now just like buyers remorse ... Jacinda and here merry socialist crew will soon have to deal with the monster they have created ...the honeymoon will hit the wall during the GFC 2 2018-19

Sgt Pepper
23-10-2017, 04:43 PM
[QUOTE=JBmurc;689730]Exactly and it was always going happen .... I just knew once Jacinda took over the ruddless Labour ship they would have a very good chance to win under MMP system(losers group together) .... then after election night I was 90% sure of it .... Bill is no teflon "john Key " Jacinda + Greens + labour party were all extremely desperate and old Winne knew it and took full advanatge of it ...

Now just like buyers remorse ... Jacinda and here merry socialist crew will soon have to deal with the monster they have created ...the honeymoon will hit the wall during the GFC 2 2018-19[/QUOte

National have a good chance of getting back

IN 2026

iceman
23-10-2017, 05:39 PM
[QUOTE=JBmurc;689730]Exactly and it was always going happen .... I just knew once Jacinda took over the ruddless Labour ship they would have a very good chance to win under MMP system(losers group together) .... then after election night I was 90% sure of it .... Bill is no teflon "john Key " Jacinda + Greens + labour party were all extremely desperate and old Winne knew it and took full advanatge of it ...

Now just like buyers remorse ... Jacinda and here merry socialist crew will soon have to deal with the monster they have created ...the honeymoon will hit the wall during the GFC 2 2018-19[/QUOte

National have a good chance of getting back

IN 2026




Agree, for a 3rd term

Beagle
23-10-2017, 07:42 PM
I disagree. National had some lines in the sand that they were not willing to cross and totally reasonably stuck to their guns on issues Jacinda rolled over on. She and Labour were desperate and ready to give away just about anything Winston wanted, which included treating The Greens like a door mat which they deserve and seem to like !
National did the right thing. It is better to regroup in a strong parliamentary opposition and watch this mess unfold.

Well said mate.

JBmurc
24-10-2017, 07:14 AM
[QUOTE=JBmurc;689730]Exactly and it was always going happen .... I just knew once Jacinda took over the ruddless Labour ship they would have a very good chance to win under MMP system(losers group together) .... then after election night I was 90% sure of it .... Bill is no teflon "john Key " Jacinda + Greens + labour party were all extremely desperate and old Winne knew it and took full advanatge of it ...

Now just like buyers remorse ... Jacinda and here merry socialist crew will soon have to deal with the monster they have created ...the honeymoon will hit the wall during the GFC 2 2018-19[/QUOte

National have a good chance of getting back

IN 2026




I'd say more like 2020