Labour / NZ First Government

[Balance]

Sure - I am just suggesting that if the mountain bike trip of our health minister is the most terrible thing our government did, than we must truly have an amazing government.

Lets look at the big picture, don't sweat the small stuff ... shall we?

I will judge the government at the end on whether they manage to bring us through this crisis with a minimum of human and economical damage. If this means that they don't fire an official for driving 35 in a 30 zone .... or for driving his mountain bike to a track, then so be it.

I prefer a government to look at the big picture instead of getting diverted by small minded nitpicking. But hey - that's just me.

Am looking at the big picture - of a government which talks the talk, but does not walk the talk.

Plus, a damning indictment of a government so bereft of talent that the PM has to swallow hard and not fire a hypocrite.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/120863459/jacinda-ardern-should-fire-david-clark-as-soon-as-this-is-over

"This is the Health Minister breaking and undermining an extremely stringent set of rules his own government has put in place for health purposes. It fulfils every stereotype of politicians as people who are happy to write rules but not abide by them."

David Clark is GONE - Cindy will fire him as she will not want to go into an election with the David 'My Values Are Labour's Values' Clark stench.

[Joshuatree]

Ardern's lessons in leadership (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/120858256/coronavirus-three-reasons-why-jacinda-arderns-response-is-perfect-crisis-leadership)
"Persuading many to act for the collective good
The work of another leadership scholar, the UK's Professor Keith Grint (https://www.anzsog.edu.au/about/contact-directory/keith-grint), also sheds light on Ardern’s leadership approach during this crisis.
For Grint, leadership involves persuading the collective to take responsibility for collective problems. Much of the prime minister's public commentary has been dedicated to exactly that – and it’s been overwhelmingly effective, at least so far, with a recent poll showing 80 per cent support (https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/28-03-2020/how-are-we-feeling-about-covid-19-the-first-opinion-poll-since-nz-locked-down/) for the government’s response to Covid-1"

[jonu]

Ardern's lessons in leadership (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/120858256/coronavirus-three-reasons-why-jacinda-arderns-response-is-perfect-crisis-leadership)
"Persuading many to act for the collective good
The work of another leadership scholar, the UK's Professor Keith Grint (https://www.anzsog.edu.au/about/contact-directory/keith-grint), also sheds light on Ardern’s leadership approach during this crisis.
For Grint, leadership involves persuading the collective to take responsibility for collective problems. Much of the prime minister's public commentary has been dedicated to exactly that – and it’s been overwhelmingly effective, at least so far, with a recent poll showing 80 per cent support (https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/28-03-2020/how-are-we-feeling-about-covid-19-the-first-opinion-poll-since-nz-locked-down/) for the government’s response to Covid-1"

Yes I read that article too and largely agree that she is a brilliant communicator. Whether the decisions were correct is where the jury is still out.

[fungus pudding]

Am looking at the big picture - of a government which talks the talk, but does not walk the talk.

Plus, a damning indictment of a government so bereft of talent that the PM has to swallow hard and not fire a hypocrite.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/120863459/jacinda-ardern-should-fire-david-clark-as-soon-as-this-is-over

"This is the Health Minister breaking and undermining an extremely stringent set of rules his own government has put in place for health purposes. It fulfils every stereotype of politicians as people who are happy to write rules but not abide by them."

David Clark is GONE - Cindy will fire him as she will not want to go into an election with the David 'My Values Are Labour's Values' Clark stench.

Now that Clare Curran is out of the picture, who should she replace him with? Twyford or Lees-Galloway? Both useless but probably as good as she's got.

[iceman]

Now that Clare Curran is out of the picture, who should she replace him with? Twyford or Lees-Galloway? Both useless but probably as good as she's got.

She should sack him right now and bring in David Parker

[fungus pudding]

She should sack him right now and bring in David Parker

That would be the worst move possible. A waste of space, walking disaster, minister. Maybe Nash, Faafoi or Prime.

[jonu]

That would be the worst move possible. A waste of space, walking disaster, minister. Maybe Nash, Faafoi or Prime.

Prime is in no way ready for a ministerial position, let alone Health.

[dobby41]

Yes I read that article too and largely agree that she is a brilliant communicator. Whether the decisions were correct is where the jury is still out.

Just remember that it isn't Jacinda alone making all this stuff up - there is a group coming up with it.

[Balance]

Ardern's lessons in leadership (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/120858256/coronavirus-three-reasons-why-jacinda-arderns-response-is-perfect-crisis-leadership)
"Persuading many to act for the collective good
The work of another leadership scholar, the UK's Professor Keith Grint (https://www.anzsog.edu.au/about/contact-directory/keith-grint), also sheds light on Ardern’s leadership approach during this crisis.
For Grint, leadership involves persuading the collective to take responsibility for collective problems. Much of the prime minister's public commentary has been dedicated to exactly that – and it’s been overwhelmingly effective, at least so far, with a recent poll showing 80 per cent support (https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/28-03-2020/how-are-we-feeling-about-covid-19-the-first-opinion-poll-since-nz-locked-down/) for the government’s response to Covid-1"

Observations:

So overwhelmingly effective that her Health Minister could not understand and ignored her communication! :t_up:

Same sort of polling which has Trump's ratings soaring for his handling of the virus outbreak?

[dobby41]

Same sort of polling which has Trump's ratings soaring for his handling of the virus outbreak?

Scary eh? ?

[jonu]

Just remember that it isn't Jacinda alone making all this stuff up - there is a group coming up with it.

Oh I'm well aware of that. Like I said, she is a brilliant communicator. As far as developing policy goes, she is clueless.

[Joshuatree]

"Whether you're comparing Ardern's performance (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/04/coronavirus-nz-with-a-chance-to-be-only-western-nation-to-eradicate-covid-19-expert.html) against other Western leaders, or assessing her efforts using researchers' measures of leadership excellence, as a New Zealander I think there is much to be grateful for in how she is leading us through this crisis."

Im grateful .

[Joshuatree]

Observations:

So overwhelmingly effective that her Health Minister could not understand and ignored her communication! :t_up:

Same sort of polling which has Trump's ratings soaring for his handling of the virus outbreak?

Thats so funny it just proves you are in an alternate world and truly divorced from reality. So big of you to be so divisive and attempting to be destructive when we need the opposite. Like you denying that you called the prop cycle wrong.
Build a bridge and get over it.

[Balance]

Thats so funny it just proves you are in an alternate world and truly divorced from reality. So big of you to be so divisive and attempting to be destructive when we need the opposite. Like you denying that you called the prop cycle wrong.
Build a bridge and get over it.

Only in your mind, JT.

Get over the fact that you cannot read what the property cycle its about.

One word - 'Kiwibuild'.

[blackcap]

Thats so funny it just proves you are in an alternate world and truly divorced from reality. So big of you to be so divisive and attempting to be destructive when we need the opposite. Like you denying that you called the prop cycle wrong.
Build a bridge and get over it.

Have you ever considered that you might be the divisive one JT? You seem to be doing a lot of projecting these days.

[nztx]

Let's see how Arden's performance pans out with so many broken & closed businesses coming up real fast with no real substantial Govt support package so far for many SME's

We have first waves of redundancies & lay-offs coming through, but there will be a considerable number further as what Businesses that do survive start rationalising on the remnants of their trade that may be present on the other side of this

Rescue the employees but sacrifice the Businesses will have lasting effects as this goes round in spirals of further unemployment & redundancies and may be Robertson's most inept & clueless directive that he will be rembered for long after he is gone.

No amount of Govt's limited Business Loan guarantees, tinkering with depreciation (Hello - Commercial Buildings do depreciate now courtesy of C-19) allowing slightly larger assets to be written off immediately for an unmatching part year then part year, relieving businesses of a portion of their staffing costs, nor minor tinkering with tax payment levels, interest & penalty will make up for what they should really be doing now, if they expect any reasonable recovery after this without fairly significant lasting effects.

Obviously, what we are seeing is a Government lacking even the slightest hint of how business operates or the most basic of economic skills, past sailing the boat in very calm waters.

Labour appear to be continuing to make grave mistakes and appear to be floundering - focussed only on eliminating Covid, but ignoring the wider picture.

This may well come back to bite them really hard, not too far down the track, when the Voters recognise what a poor overall effort has produced and start recognising what should have occurred to better save the day, rather than too little too late, with far too many grave mistakes in the process.

And of course now, Poverty, Homeless, Kiwibuild, The Coal Mine recovery, and probably alot of their campaigning blocks are all forgotten & failed initiatives as Labor struggle to even comprehend and manage what they are dealing with and keeping things together without the sides and wheels falling off things very badly ..

[iceman]

I share your concern nztx. We do not seem to have a plan beyond the closures that are leading a total economic destruction for many and will lead to serious mental health issues down the track.
Closing of schools for example does not appear to achieve anything, possibly quite to the contracry, according to this UK study https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/apr/06/school-closures-have-little-impact-on-spread-of-coronavirus-study

I think a good idea for the Government that would help SME in NZ would be to give each Kiwi an electronic gift card to use in a tourist attraction in NZ, as has been done in some places overseas. It would encourage Kiwis to travel domestically this year.

[dobby41]

I think a good idea for the Government that would help SME in NZ would be to give each Kiwi an electronic gift card to use in a tourist attraction in NZ, as has been done in some places overseas. It would encourage Kiwis to travel domestically this year.

Not all business affected are in tourism.
It will be interesting to see how you decide a business was on its knees anyway and should fail. Not all should be resusitated - some should make way for better business.
The problem will be finding a way of choosing that doesn't bind up the system with investigations.

[Balance]

Let's see how Arden's performance pans out with so many broken & closed businesses coming up real fast with no real substantial Govt support package so far for many SME's

We have first waves of redundancies & lay-offs coming through, but there will be a considerable number further as what Businesses that do survive start rationalising on the remnants of their trade that may be present on the other side of this

Rescue the employees but sacrifice the Businesses will have lasting effects as this goes round in spirals of further unemployment & redundancies and may be Robertson's most inept & clueless directive that he will be rembered for long after he is gone.

No amount of Govt's limited Business Loan guarantees, tinkering with depreciation (Hello - Commercial Buildings do depreciate now courtesy of C-19) allowing slightly larger assets to be written off immediately for an unmatching part year then part year, relieving businesses of a portion of their staffing costs, nor minor tinkering with tax payment levels, interest & penalty will make up for what they should really be doing now, if they expect any reasonable recovery after this without fairly significant lasting effects.

Obviously, what we are seeing is a Government lacking even the slightest hint of how business operates or the most basic of economic skills, past sailing the boat in very calm waters.

Labour appear to be continuing to make grave mistakes and appear to be floundering - focussed only on eliminating Covid, but ignoring the wider picture.

This may well come back to bite them really hard, not too far down the track, when the Voters recognise what a poor overall effort has produced and start recognising what should have occurred to better save the day, rather than too little too late, with far too many grave mistakes in the process.

And of course now, Poverty, Homeless, Kiwibuild, The Coal Mine recovery, and probably alot of their campaigning blocks are all forgotten & failed initiatives as Labor struggle to even comprehend and manage what they are dealing with and keeping things together without the sides and wheels falling off things very badly ..

Well articulated, nztx.

Labour/Green government's solution to any problem is to throw either taxpayers' money (in the main) at the problem, oblivious to the long term adverse outcome or put the problem to a committee or study.

The problem with this lockdown (which most of us support) is that there is no post-lockdown plan clearly articulated to give employers and businesses confidence to hold onto staff - we are going to see horrendous unemployment and business failures in the year ahead.

The wider picture is that we have an inexperienced government (good at talking the talk but not walking the talk) in charge - not a single businessperson or creator of productive jobs amongst the ministers - FRIGHTENING!:eek2:

[iceman]

Not all business affected are in tourism.
It will be interesting to see how you decide a business was on its knees anyway and should fail. Not all should be resusitated - some should make way for better business.
Te problem will be finding a way of choosing that doesn't bind up the system with investigations.

Of course not all affected businesses are in tourism. But the Government is asking Kiwis to holiday in NZ and a little bit of financial encouragement may help !

[artemis]

An epidemic / pandemic plan was in place when the current government took office. We will probably have to wait for a commission of enquiry to find out how adequate it was, how often it was reviewed, changes made if any especially after the measles epidemic.

The plan should have been initiated in January when Wuhan went into lockdown - probably was - but on the basis of mixed messages (being charitable) since then actions and policies were not well thought through.

[Joshuatree]

Only in your mind, JT.

Get over the fact that you cannot read what the property cycle its about.

One word - 'Kiwibuild'.

Empty vessels make the loudest noise. You seek destruction , divisiveness and hate. You aim to undermine the NZ govt with ridicule, name calling, constant hate messages about our Govt especially the PM who you compare with Trump. In our time of GREATEST NEED and support you seek to sow discontent What has your country done to you to seek constant revenge, or are you simply a political party acolyte doing their bidding uncover. Ive no idea what motivates you but i know its not for our countries good when we need it.

[dobby41]

The problem with this lockdown (which most of us support) is that there is no post-lockdown plan clearly articulated to give employers and businesses confidence to hold onto staff - we are going to see horrendous unemployment and business failures in the year ahead.

No plan articulated YET

[fungus pudding]

Empty vessels make the loudest noise. You seek destruction , divisiveness and hate. You aim to undermine the NZ govt with ridicule, name calling, constant hate messages about our Govt especially the PM who you compare with Trump. In our time of GREATEST NEED and support you seek to sow discontent What has your country done to you to seek constant revenge, or are you simply a political party acolyte doing their bidding uncover. Ive no idea what motivates you but i know its not for our countries good when we need it.

Watch your fufu valve there JT

[Balance]

Watch your fufu valve there JT

He has already blown his gasket - now spilling his guts. :t_up:

[klid]

Post lockdown plan? Probably going to alert level 5 as the description for level 4 is - "Likely that disease is not contained."
Was that like trying to not make people panic or something

Following the modus operandi of the pandemic; the weak companies have already started to die, with many others in need of care that yes, quite frankly they haven't been getting.

Brutal.

Air NZ 900m 7/8/9% and we'll have equity thanks.

Bauer: Help.
Government: We'll talk to your industry reps thx.
Bauer: Bye.
Government: Those guys never even asked us for help, should've taken the sub.

:t_down:

[Joshuatree]

He has already blown his gasket - now spilling his guts. :t_up:
Mercenary for hire no morals anything goes, contact balance.

[Joshuatree]

Poll: Kiwis trust Govt on Covid-19 (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120911320/coronavirus-public-surge-in-trust-of-government-and-national-pride)

"And while support for governments was generally increasing around the world New Zealand led the pack compared to the G7 - the US, UK, Canada, Japan, Italy, and Germany, who were polled by Colmar Brunton's parent company.Across those nations 59 per cent of people trusted their governments to make the right calls on Covid-19, compared to 88 per cent in New Zealand."

[nztx]

Did they ask any of the right or pertinent questions & who was asked ?

Where was their sample & how was it balanced ?

If it was anything like the 'well balanced sample of Business Owners earlier' then most of us will probably
already know the answers..

[nztx]

"PM wants answers on Ship"

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12323218


Could this be the start of trying to play the Blame Game for something
which NZ Health Authorities failed us on, in even letting the Ship offload
passengers, while they should have known or made extensive enquiries on the
outstanding test results for illness & C-19 that were still pending at the time
on the passenger ship?

All will be aware that from the time that they sent out a special flight
to pick up passengers from the C-19 inflected passenger ship up in Asia
to go into special quarantine up Auckland, the threat was very real and serious
and both Govt & Authorities would have had to be blind to not recognise.

Subsequent reaction by Govt was clearly too little too late & not effective
to address the threat in time with effective measures and all similar
travel movements (including those encouraged by Peters from C-19 infected
countries should have been stamped on hard & quarantined at that time forwards)

Govt have allowed the situation with Covid-19 to progress to the current stage
by not acting soon enough and not recognising the seriousness of the threat early enough.

What was happening in Australia, Europe, Iran & China should have rang loud warnings
on exactly what was needed and how fast it was needed to lock the virus out with
stringent compulsary quarantining and locking down international travel movements


Does the PM really have the time to fluff around chasing the legalities of matters now
when the wheels & sides are starting to fall off many SME's (People's employers and the
source of employment & Livelihood) which have seen little or no meaningful assistance
to actually help the businesses through the Govt inflicted shut down of all but
essential industries & services ?

The Public & NZ expect far better responses of any Government and a Labor Govt in this case
in times of what look to play out as extensive Business carnage which will not see recovery
fast, if many or most businesses actually survive the duration at all


Robertson should now start considering what fraction of the tax base & what ongoing huge support
extending well into the future will be upon us well into the future, if he does not act now to try to help
with meaningful lifelines (not excuses for these as seen to date) those businesses savaged by this
Government's incompetent management & floundering around, when it should be putting in place
meaningful support for all affected including SME's and not just Employees of those.

If he doesn't look to support significant sectors funding the tax base, then the ill thought-out'Worst Nightmare"
that the Govt have orchestrated stands to get infinitely worse spiralling out beyond even Robertson's wildest dreams

[RTM]

I think I've voted for everyone over the years....and am certainly not inclined to being a Labour party supporter. However, I just watched the COVID-19 presentation and it would be hard not to be impressed by Jacinda and the way and what she communicates with respect to this. I guess John Key had the GFC and the Christchurch earthquakes as major issues to deal with which was largely successful. Jacinda has had the Mosque shootings and Covid-19 and man, is she making the most of those. Hard to see Simon getting a look in. If all continues to go well with the COVID-19 recovery, then predict the election will be as soon as possible. Simon should be looking for a delay so that some of the gloss can wear off.

She's an impressive lady IMO.

[macduffy]

Yes, I agree with all that, RTM, and I can't recall ever voting Labour!

:mellow:

[RGR367]

Another one from the gov't bereft of common sense and understanding of their own rules https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120998428/coronavirus-hone-harawira-says-600km-trip-meal-with-family-in-auckland-was-safe

[nztx]

Another one from the gov't bereft of common sense and understanding of their own rules https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120998428/coronavirus-hone-harawira-says-600km-trip-meal-with-family-in-auckland-was-safe

He must have somehow missed the part about "Stay At Home" or thought he was exempt from the Decrees of the Top Spinner & Screamer ..

[Joshuatree]

Another one from the gov't bereft of common sense and understanding of their own rules https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120998428/coronavirus-hone-harawira-says-600km-trip-meal-with-family-in-auckland-was-safe


Sure is , looks like a straight out of "if bridges can do it ( how many bubbles does simon actually have;1 in tauranga and what 3 in wellington?) so can i, even if im not in Govt or an MP.,im important and hereby justify this.

[jonu]

Sure is , looks like a straight out of "if bridges can do it ( how many bubbles does simon actually have;1 in tauranga and what 3 in wellington?) so can i, even if im not in Govt or an MP.,im important and hereby justify this.

If Bridges is as bad in this matter as you continually claim why hasn't Cindy had the balls to go after him? Is your honourable leader turning a blind eye? Or does she...like the rest of us, recognise that the Opposition is important in a crisis.

I think both leaders have shown a responsible restraint. Both have a fine line to tread.

[nztx]

Yet more fluffing around & minor tinkering by the Labor Govt today, which will do little or nothing for most struggling businesses
out there:

https://www.business.govt.nz/news/covid-19-latest-news-and-updates

"New tax and business support

Business tax support
Government announced a further set of tax proposals to help businesses manage the impacts of COVID-19. These include:

- greater flexibility for taxpayers in respect to tax deadlines
- changes to the tax loss continuity rules
- a tax loss carry-back scheme."

Robertson & his spinning Mates still don't get it --

that they do have to open the Govt Treasure Chest and start spitting out some fairly substantial Govt
Life Support Cash to Business, if they expect to have many affected Businesses come out the other side and to avoid
very substantial Unemployment.


The "Spare the Employees & Sacrifice the Businesses & Employers" stance is showing Robertson & Ardern up for what many may
have already considered was the case when this Govt were parachuted into their hot seats courtesy of Peters..

[dobby41]

If Bridges is as bad in this matter as you continually claim why hasn't Cindy had the balls to go after him? Is your honourable leader turning a blind eye? Or does she...like the rest of us, recognise that the Opposition is important in a crisis.

I think both leaders have shown a responsible restraint. Both have a fine line to tread.

Up to the voters to go after Bridges - Cindy has far better things to do I suspect.

[Zaphod]

Yet more fluffing around & minor tinkering by the Labor Govt today, which will do little or nothing for most struggling businesses
out there:

https://www.business.govt.nz/news/covid-19-latest-news-and-updates

"New tax and business support

Business tax support
Government announced a further set of tax proposals to help businesses manage the impacts of COVID-19. These include:

- greater flexibility for taxpayers in respect to tax deadlines
- changes to the tax loss continuity rules
- a tax loss carry-back scheme."

Robertson & his spinning Mates still don't get it --

that they do have to open the Govt Treasure Chest and start spitting out some fairly substantial Govt
Life Support Cash to Business, if they expect to have many affected Businesses come out the other side and to avoid
very substantial Unemployment.


The "Spare the Employees & Sacrifice the Businesses & Employers" stance is showing Robertson & Ardern up for what many may
have already considered was the case when this Govt were parachuted into their hot seats courtesy of Peters..

Apparently EY presented the case to the government regarding the carry-back and tax loss continuity rules to the government a month or two ago, so this is probably the result of "his spinning mates" as you put it.

Completely agree - none of what's been outlined thus far is substantial enough, and I suspect it'll all be clawed back in May's budget through tax hikes.

[jonu]

Up to the voters to go after Bridges - Cindy has far better things to do I suspect.

So St Cindy is turning a blind eye? How irresponsible! You better let JT know.

[Joshuatree]

Up to the voters to go after Bridges - Cindy has far better things to do I suspect.

Precisely, let him keep digging his own hole . Irrelevant to her, she is being a leader and has more then enough on her plate.

[jonu]

Precisely, let him keep digging his own hole . Irrelevant to her, she is being a leader and has more then enough on her plate.

But according to you JT, Bridges was in breach of lockdown. How can he be irrelevant to your worshipped leader? Surely she needs to take firm, decisive action!
Or maybe you were full of it all along.

[nztx]

Should we all be concerned at the Labour Govt's stance on where they are effectively applying subsidies ?

Where does that leave the Young in future - for example part timers in hospitality, those in their first job ?

What does that mean for their futures & future prospects ?

Is not ensuring many of the businesses who employ this segment of the population survive completely
& totally economically shortsighted and politically reckless .. with no thought of the future ?

Under is link to a recent Australian news article, which will also be relevant to NZ:

History suggests youth unemployment will surge, pain will last a decade after coronavirus crisis

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-16/history-suggests-youth-unemployment-will-surge-coronavirus/12151668

[Balance]

Should we all be concerned at the Labour Govt's stance on where they are effectively applying subsidies ?

Where does that leave the Young in future - for example part timers in hospitality, those in their first job ?

What does that mean for their futures & future prospects ?

Is not ensuring many of the businesses who employ this segment of the population survive completely
& totally economically shortsighted and politically reckless .. with no thought of the future ?

Under is link to a recent Australian news article, which will also be relevant to NZ:

History suggests youth unemployment will surge, pain will last a decade after coronavirus crisis

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-16/history-suggests-youth-unemployment-will-surge-coronavirus/12151668

Sadly, this is what happens when you have economic inexperienced and incompetent leaders/ministers in charge.

To date, outside of the wage subsidy, there has been bugger all help for SMEs, especially in the tourism & accommodation, airline, hospitality and leisure sectors.

This government’s pre-occupation seems to be to expand the welfare state rather than help SMEs to survive and provide long term employment, especially for youth workers.

Takes at least 5 years to grow a lovely strong fruit tree but takes an idiot with an axe or chainsaw 1 hour or less to cut & destroy the tree. All the future fruits to come from the tree - gone.

[BlackPeter]

Sadly, this is what happens when you have economic inexperienced and incompetent leaders/ministers in charge.

To date, outside of the wage subsidy, there has been bugger all help for SMEs, especially in the tourism & accommodation, airline, hospitality and leisure sectors.

This government’s pre-occupation seems to be to expand the welfare state rather than help SMEs to survive and provide long term employment, especially for youth workers.

Takes at least 5 years to grow a lovely strong fruit tree but takes an idiot with an axe or chainsaw 1 hour or less to cut & destroy the tree. All the future fruits to come from the tree - gone.

I think you are a bit unbalanced here. While I am sure that they make mistakes (everybody does ...), NZ has one of the lowest mortality rates from this virus in the world (2.3 ppm) ... and if past experience from similar events (like Spanish flu) is right, than areas with low mortality rates will economically thrive compared to high mortality areas like e.g. many parts of Europe (Spain has e.g. 430 ppm), UK (233 ppm) and US (115 ppm).

Just for clarity - ppm are in this case the number of people who died already from COVID 19 per million people in the respective country as per yesterday (Greenwich time).

I think it would be fair to give our government a chance and acknowledge at least their achievements before you start with your usual Cindy trashing ... might help your credibility as well :):

[Balance]

I think you are a bit unbalanced here. While I am sure that they make mistakes (everybody does ...), NZ has one of the lowest mortality rates from this virus in the world (2.3 ppm) ... and if past experience from similar events (like Spanish flu) is right, than areas with low mortality rates will economically thrive compared to high mortality areas like e.g. many parts of Europe (Spain has e.g. 430 ppm), UK (233 ppm) and US (115 ppm).

Just for clarity - ppm are in this case the number of people who died already from COVID 19 per million people in the respective country as per yesterday (Greenwich time).

I think it would be fair to give our government a chance and acknowledge at least their achievements before you start with your usual Cindy trashing ... might help your credibility as well :):

NZ’s strict lockdown has definitely achieved the aim of relatively low infection and death rate. So kudos to the government.

Two points :

1. Adjusted for population, Australia is doing just as well - without the extreme lockdown measures we have here.

2. My gripe is that the government is doing bugger all for SME businesses. I guess I should know as I am helping with several of them - hard working couples who have spent years risking their funds and putting in the long hours to build their businesses. They are getting nothing from this government by way of relief - only zero revenues but still have to carry expenses like rent, corporate & business outgoings like rates, utility bills and interest payments.

They are expected to suffer and carry all the costs while the government takes care of wage earners (non risk takers) and increase social welfare payments.

Something stinks - when those who take risks and work hard are basically given token help.

[Balance]

https://www.smallbusiness.wa.gov.au/blog/coronavirus-stimulus-package-small-business

Have a look at what the Australian government is providing by way of REAL assistance for SMEs.

Real help on almost all fronts to help them stay in business and ease their anxiety and burden - even though their lockdown still allow businesses to operate 'safely'.

In NZ, it is clear that this government has zero appreciation of the disastrous impact the strict lockdown is having on SME business owners and operators.

Eg. Commercial rentals - Zero help and relief from this government who, unlike the Australian government, is unwilling to change legislation to effect a fair deal for retailers and store keepers. They are locked out from doing business by government decree - so zero revenues - but still have to pay rent! WTF!

What you get when you have a government comprising of ministers who have never risk capital & created successful businesses. :cursing::t_down:

[Balance]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLcNStHTDjM

Rather rude but straight and true to the endth degree.

All governments are always in hock with big businesses and banks - so you can choose to benefit from the situation by investing accordingly - or you can rage like Vic.

[BlackPeter]

NZ’s strict lockdown has definitely achieved the aim of relatively low infection and death rate. So kudos to the government.

Two points :

1. Adjusted for population, Australia is doing just as well - without the extreme lockdown measures we have here.

2. My gripe is that the government is doing bugger all for SME businesses. I guess I should know as I am helping with several of them - hard working couples who have spent years risking their funds and putting in the long hours to build their businesses. They are getting nothing from this government by way of relief - only zero revenues but still have to carry expenses like rent, corporate & business outgoings like rates, utility bills and interest payments.

They are expected to suffer and carry all the costs while the government takes care of wage earners (non risk takers) and increase social welfare payments.

Something stinks - when those who take risks and work hard are basically given token help.

Australia's COVID 19 death rate is a bit higher (2.7 ppm vs 2.3 ppm in NZ), but fair enough - both countries did amazingly well compared to the rest of the world.

I do agree that the government seems to be so far rather blind towards the pain of SME's vs. increasing the welfare for beneficiaries and wage earners. This is in my view a fair criticism - and it well might be something which will kill them at the next election if they don't change their attitude.

I am however not sure whether National did show in the previous crisis less bias towards their perceived clientel. Labour is now looking after the beneficiaries and basically increasing the number of them, while in the last crisis National bailed out their buddies running banks and finance companies. National used the opportunity after the GFC as well to dismantle work safety standards and labour laws resulting in increased fatality rates in all high risk occupations (e.g. forestry) and culminating in disasters like Pike River. You could argue that while Labour is killing business, National was killing people - but obviously both is highly undesirable.

Clearly - National had a different focus, but I very much doubt that their bias is any better for the country than Labour's bias. Would be nice though to have a government which is economically competent as well as looking after their people. Not sure, though I see who would run this government.

[ynot]

Australia's COVID 19 death rate is a bit higher (2.7 ppm vs 2.3 ppm in NZ), but fair enough - both countries did amazingly well compared to the rest of the world.

I do agree that the government seems to be so far rather blind towards the pain of SME's vs. increasing the welfare for beneficiaries and wage earners. This is in my view a fair criticism - and it well might be something which will kill them at the next election if they don't change their attitude.

I am however not sure whether National did show in the previous crisis less bias towards their perceived clientel. Labour is now looking after the beneficiaries and basically increasing the number of them, while in the last crisis National bailed out their buddies running banks and finance companies. National used the opportunity after the GFC as well to dismantle work safety standards and labour laws resulting in increased fatality rates in all high risk occupations (e.g. forestry) and culminating in disasters like Pike River. You could argue that while Labour is killing business, National was killing people - but obviously both is highly undesirable.

Clearly - National had a different focus, but I very much doubt that their bias is any better for the country than Labour's bias. Would be nice though to have a government which is economically competent as well as looking after their people. Not sure, though I see who would run this government.

Being compassionate is relatively easy. Dealing with the aftermath of economic destruction will be horrific.

[dobby41]

Australia's COVID 19 death rate is a bit higher (2.7 ppm vs 2.3 ppm in NZ), but fair enough - both countries did amazingly well compared to the rest of the world.

I do agree that the government seems to be so far rather blind towards the pain of SME's vs. increasing the welfare for beneficiaries and wage earners. This is in my view a fair criticism - and it well might be something which will kill them at the next election if they don't change their attitude.

I am however not sure whether National did show in the previous crisis less bias towards their perceived clientel. Labour is now looking after the beneficiaries and basically increasing the number of them, while in the last crisis National bailed out their buddies running banks and finance companies. National used the opportunity after the GFC as well to dismantle work safety standards and labour laws resulting in increased fatality rates in all high risk occupations (e.g. forestry) and culminating in disasters like Pike River. You could argue that while Labour is killing business, National was killing people - but obviously both is highly undesirable.

Clearly - National had a different focus, but I very much doubt that their bias is any better for the country than Labour's bias. Would be nice though to have a government which is economically competent as well as looking after their people. Not sure, though I see who would run this government.

I would have thought that it is still far to early to tell if the Govt has failed.
Plans for business have hardly started and it is a moving target.

[fungus pudding]

I would have thought that it is still far to early to tell if the Govt has failed.
Plans for business have hardly started and it is a moving target.

You are right. It will take years of hypothetical country comparisons, collecting statistics on many aspects of society, and modelling to know anything at all. Even then they won't really know.

[westerly]

Sadly, this is what happens when you have economic inexperienced and incompetent leaders/ministers in charge.

To date, outside of the wage subsidy, there has been bugger all help for SMEs, especially in the tourism & accommodation, airline, hospitality and leisure sectors.

This government’s pre-occupation seems to be to expand the welfare state rather than help SMEs to survive and provide long term employment, especially for youth workers.

Takes at least 5 years to grow a lovely strong fruit tree but takes an idiot with an axe or chainsaw 1 hour or less to cut & destroy the tree. All the future fruits to come from the tree - gone.

Given the large numbers of SMEs that fail each year in NZ perhaps it would be difficult to decide who should be supported ? https://nzbusiness.co.nz/article/fail-expos%C3%A9

westerly

[Balance]

Given the large numbers of SMEs that fail each year in NZ perhaps it would be difficult to decide who should be supported ? https://nzbusiness.co.nz/article/fail-expos%C3%A9

westerly

Fair comment but how about starting with SMEs which have been around and been profitable for the last 3 years?

[Balance]

Australia's COVID 19 death rate is a bit higher (2.7 ppm vs 2.3 ppm in NZ), but fair enough - both countries did amazingly well compared to the rest of the world.

I do agree that the government seems to be so far rather blind towards the pain of SME's vs. increasing the welfare for beneficiaries and wage earners. This is in my view a fair criticism - and it well might be something which will kill them at the next election if they don't change their attitude.


As of this afternoon, NZ's infection rate was 293 ppm vs Australia's 264 ppm - both very good figures when you compare with say, Germany's 1731 ppm or 54.7 ppm death rate, with Germany now easing out of their lockdown.

As for how Labour is not helping the SMEs, that's actually the point make by Bob Jones - that Labour will not survive the horrendous economic fallout, irrespective go how popular the PM is.

[Sir Ten]

In a climate where it has become very challenging to predict what the world might look like, I appreciate the various views and opinions of those on this forum which is helping to inform my own.

Time will shortly tell which pathway this Government will take in terms of the lockdown and its duration. Regardless of that decision, I see Level 3 as only having a mildly positive impact on the economy.

I'd be happy to extend Level 4 by two weeks, thus providing us with more data and hopefully more certainty regarding our attempts to eradicate the virus. However, following that, I think the Government should implement a more tailored approach to balancing the health and economic impacts of their response:

- The fatality rate is clearly significantly higher in those over 65. Extend the lockdown for those over 65 and set up the required infrastructure and systems to accommodate this (for example, tax-payer funded food delivery schemes and other such measures to provide them with the necessities of life... sign them all up for Netflix if we have to). The cost of such measures would be materially lower than the economic costs being shouldered by the population as a whole - not to mention those over 65 still receive their superannuation cheque (and winter energy kicker) regardless of whether businesses are open

- Move those under 65 to level 2. What worries me most is the future cost of the lockdown. We can all joke about millennials and their tendency to prioritise smashed avo over home ownership but things are about to get significantly harder for this demographic: (a) lack of jobs, many of which are also being progressively disintermediated by technology and cheaper global labour (albeit the latter may not have as much impact in the short-to-medium term); (b) the aging population that continues to age... and the superannuation payments that will need to fund it; (c) impending increased taxes and/or inflation from printing money; (d) limited ability for them to undertake an OE and secure the fruits of doing so (i.e. global experience) for at least the next 12 months (if not longer)

Will be interesting to see how the above comments age... not an immaterial risk they lead to some embarrassment on my part. Regardless, I'm happy to own them.

[fungus pudding]

In a climate where it has become very challenging to predict what the world might look like, I appreciate the various views and opinions of those on this forum which is helping to inform my own.

Time will shortly tell which pathway this Government will take in terms of the lockdown and its duration. Regardless of that decision, I see Level 3 as only having a mildly positive impact on the economy.

I'd be happy to extend Level 4 by two weeks, thus providing us with more data and hopefully more certainty regarding our attempts to eradicate the virus. However, following that, I think the Government should implement a more tailored approach to balancing the health and economic impacts of their response:

- The fatality rate is clearly significantly higher in those over 65. Extend the lockdown for those over 65 and set up the required infrastructure and systems to accommodate this (for example, tax-payer funded food delivery schemes and other such measures to provide them with the necessities of life... sign them all up for Netflix if we have to). The cost of such measures would be materially lower than the economic costs being shouldered by the population as a whole - not to mention those over 65 still receive their superannuation cheque (and winter energy kicker) regardless of whether businesses are open

- Move those under 65 to level 2. What worries me most is the future cost of the lockdown. We can all joke about millennials and their tendency to prioritise smashed avo over home ownership but things are about to get significantly harder for this demographic: (a) lack of jobs, many of which are also being progressively disintermediated by technology and cheaper global labour (albeit the latter may not have as much impact in the short-to-medium term); (b) the aging population that continues to age... and the superannuation payments that will need to fund it; (c) impending increased taxes and/or inflation from printing money; (d) limited ability for them to undertake an OE and secure the fruits of doing so (i.e. global experience) for at least the next 12 months (if not longer)

Will be interesting to see how the above comments age... not an immaterial risk they lead to some embarrassment on my part. Regardless, I'm happy to own them.

The lock-down has nothing whatsoever to do with age. It's a restriction on movement and activity.

[zacman]

The lock-down has nothing whatsoever to do with age. It's a restriction on movement and activity.

Of course it is based on a restriction of movement and activity, but such restrictions are themselves based on a risk assessment and what is best for the country and in that regard Sir Ten is correct that there is a significantly higher mortality rate the older you are. All our deaths are of people over 70. I believe his suggestion of restrictions being greater if you are older is of much merit and from memory has been implemented in some countries.

I applaud the government's response so far. What is announced tomorrow will have risk attached to any decision. Despite what some may imply, it will not be a decision of only 1 person and will be one in which science, health and economic advisors will have provided opinions.

zacman

[nztx]

Given the large numbers of SMEs that fail each year in NZ perhaps it would be difficult to decide who should be supported ? https://nzbusiness.co.nz/article/fail-expos%C3%A9

westerly

How about all of them ?

There couldn't be a stronger case than Govt's orchestrated close down would have
adversely affected all of those affected, even those just sitting on edge immediately prior to
lock down

The Govt Wages Subsidy didn't differentiate between them, so there would appear to be no
valid reason that any badly needed wider support package should either..

[Sir Ten]

The lock-down has nothing whatsoever to do with age. It's a restriction on movement and activity.

Hypothetically, if NZ's population was entirely made up of people under the age of 65 do you think the restrictions on movement and activity would be different?

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12325942

An example of the stress of L4 on an individual?

Shot dead after going berserk attacking cars, power poles and property.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/121089846/impact-of-lockdown-sees-popular-taranaki-cafe-close-for-good

And in the real world, here’s another example of a 15 year old business shutting down because of zero help from this government - after depriving the business of ALL of its revenues.

[blackcap]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/121089846/impact-of-lockdown-sees-popular-taranaki-cafe-close-for-good

And in the real world, here’s another example of a 15 year old business shutting down because of zero help from this government - after depriving the business of ALL of its revenues.

Yep in the real world the societal impact of lockdown will be far worse than the benefits that we derive from it. What about the thousands of people that have not visited their GP the last month, the thousands of elective surgeries that have not been completed. What is that going to cost further down the track?

[stoploss]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/121089846/impact-of-lockdown-sees-popular-taranaki-cafe-close-for-good

And in the real world, here’s another example of a 15 year old business shutting down because of zero help from this government - after depriving the business of ALL of its revenues.
It’s a little sad that 15 years in business that he hasn’t got enough in the tin to get through a month ..... Must have been marginal to start with .

[fungus pudding]

It’s a little sad that 15 years in business that he hasn’t got enough in the tin to get through a month ..... Must have been marginal to start with .

Not unusual though. Lots of small businesses run like that. Especially true of cafes and food outlets. While some are very successful there are plenty where the operators earn less than they have to pay an employee; particularly true if you consider earnings per hour, rather than just weekly earnings.

[kiora]

It’s a little sad that 15 years in business that he hasn’t got enough in the tin to get through a month ..... Must have been marginal to start with .

Par for the course though
He was in a small cafe a few years ago a few doors down then spent a lot on new upgraded premises in a small village.
Reliant on passing tourist trade & surfers travelling down the surf highway
Trip advisor reviews variable

Really just a business that got unlucky & got the timing wrong unfortunately for him

Fortunately for him he gets to enjoy the new premises

[Balance]

Not unusual though. Lots of small businesses run like that. Especially true of cafes and food outlets. While some are very successful there are plenty where the operators earn less than they have to pay an employee; particularly true if you consider earnings per hour, rather than just weekly earnings.


Yup - that's the cold hard truth for many of the small operators - after rent, they often earn less than their highest paid employee.

[Balance]

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/04/16/1130139/shock-as-govt-offers-no-rent-relief-for-smes

A kick in the teeth for SMEs - after waiting for 2 weeks, government told them to get stuffed - no rent relief.

[kiora]

Coronavirus: Ashley Bloomfield must step out of the Prime Minister's shadow
The Government or caucus doesn't make the decision
Epidemic Preparedness Act of 2006 and the Health Act of 1956.

Under these laws the Prime Minister, if advised by the Director-General of Health, can declare an epidemic.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120967553/coronavirus-ashley-bloomfield-must-step-out-of-the-prime-ministers-shadow?rm=a

[dobby41]

Coronavirus: Ashley Bloomfield must step out of the Prime Minister's shadow
The Government or caucus doesn't make the decision
Epidemic Preparedness Act of 2006 and the Health Act of 1956.

Under these laws the Prime Minister, if advised by the Director-General of Health, can declare an epidemic.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120967553/coronavirus-ashley-bloomfield-must-step-out-of-the-prime-ministers-shadow?rm=a

I don't think that Bloomfield is in the PMs shadow - he has a big input of his own.
Levels of lockdown don't just take health inputs - economic inputs count also.

[nztx]

Oh well Peters has lost his case against the Top Civil Servants etc on the Overpaid Super matter (just announced)

Out of this it looks like the Taxpayer has won but also lost (wearing the costs)

[zacman]

I know the business, being a patron maybe twice a year. He did well to survive as long as he did. Okato is a small town. He was sometimes busy on weekends but seemed to be quiet during the week. As Kiora suggests he may have over capitalised. He was entitled to a wage subsidy from the WINZ scheme. If he can not survive 6 weeks with that subsidy then the painful reality is that his financial structure was never going to be stong enough. A small town café is always going to struggle. I just hope that my favourite city café is still operating when I return. Because of its location and steady cliente if the city café does not survive ( I suspect it will) someone else will set up a new café in the same location

zacman

sorry .. that was in reply to Balance's reference to a Stuff story about a 15 year business closing

[nztx]

Distractions out of the way, Peters must have received a delayed Urgent Wake Up call from his
very annoyed oldies & badly disrupted business owners -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121121713/coronavirus-winston-peters-says-no-value-in-saving-people-at-the-cost-of-greater-social-good


"Peters told Newstalk ZB the Government needed to save the economy as fast as possible to prevent further damage."

Why has it taken Mr "Import all the Expats C-19 & All in their Droves regardless" so long to wake up ?

Left up to Labour & the fumbling Robertson, nothing has happened in 3 weeks and nothing will probably happen
either under Labor's current destructive counter productive projectory while they tinker and fluff around..

[zacman]

Distractions out of the way, Peters must have received a delayed Urgent Wake Up call from his
very annoyed oldies & badly disrupted business owners -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121121713/coronavirus-winston-peters-says-no-value-in-saving-people-at-the-cost-of-greater-social-good


"Peters told Newstalk ZB the Government needed to save the economy as fast as possible to prevent further damage."

Why has it taken Mr "Import all the Expats C-19 & All in their Droves regardless" so long to wake up ?

Left up to Labour & the fumbling Robertson, nothing has happened in 3 weeks and nothing will probably happen
either under Labor's current destructive counter productive projectory while they tinker and fluff around..

"...tinker and fluff around …". Come on. The govt is getting wide spread praise both at home and abroad for its bold and assertive steps. Sure they extended level 4 by only 5 days but many were suggesting 2 weeks. Best not to go the Singapore way and open too soon.

People are understandably complaining about a 6 to 8 week effect on their businesses with the weaker ones falling over. What do they expect ...its a pandemic, there are going to be some business failures.

The government has been bold and assertive in its actions. Thank heavens we didn't follow the Swedish "plan B' as the Auckland Medical school expert and others proposed. Our economy would still be suffering but the loss of lives would have lead to much greater criticisms of the government.

It is not nearly as bad as it could be. There may never be a vaccine, and indeed WHO confirms that once infected and recovered even with antibodies in your system, there is no guarantee that you can not be infected again. We may be stuck with this for many years. If so the Government's strong actions will leave us much better prepared than most.

zacman

[Balance]

"...tinker and fluff around …". Come on. The govt is getting wide spread praise both at home and abroad for its bold and assertive steps. Sure they extended level 4 by only 5 days but many were suggesting 2 weeks. Best not to go the Singapore way and open too soon.

People are understandably complaining about a 6 to 8 week effect on their businesses with the weaker ones falling over. What do they expect ...its a pandemic, there are going to be some business failures.

The government has been bold and assertive in its actions. Thank heavens we didn't follow the Swedish "plan B' as the Auckland Medical school expert and others proposed. Our economy would still be suffering but the loss of lives would have lead to much greater criticisms of the government.

It is not nearly as bad as it could be. There may never be a vaccine, and indeed WHO confirms that once infected and recovered even with antibodies in your system, there is no guarantee that you can not be infected again. We may be stuck with this for many years. If so the Government's strong actions will leave us much better prepared than most.

zacman

Look across the Tasman - they are just as successful with containing the outbreak but without the horrendous impact on businesses.

Or Taiwan.

Why do we have to compare with countries which have not done well? Aim higher! Aspire higher! Achieve better than the ones who are doing well.

The ABs do not compare themselves against Canada - they compete against other world champions like England or South Africa, right?

[fungus pudding]

Look across the Tasman - they are just as successful with containing the outbreak but without the horrendous impact on businesses.

Why?

But are they? Rumour has it that although their death rate is reported at 50% more than us per capita it excludes rest home deaths. If correct the difference could be huge.

[Balance]

But are they? Rumour has it their death rate is reported at 50% more than us per capita. but excludes rest home deaths. I'd correct the difference could be huge.

We can only use published numbers at this stage rather than if this or what that, right?

I watched Q & A just now and Grant Robertson could not come out with one single direct help which this government has given to help the SMEs! Not one!

He was asked about rental relief like in Oz and it is clear that there will be no help.

$10 billion so far for wage subsidy to incentivise employers to keep employees - really just an expensive social welfare bandaid if the businesses do not survive because there are other expenses to be covered when there’s Zero, zilch, nothing revenues coming in for the businesses.

[Balance]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8236071/Australia-records-just-13-new-coronavirus-cases-five-states-territories-posting-ZERO.html

Australia shows how it is done - 13 new cases (equivalent to 2.5 cases in NZ) and zero new cases in 4 states yesterday.

All without having to impose the 'strictest' lockdown in the world, unlike NZ.

We should all be very happy with what NZ's lockdown has achieved but let's not kid ourselves ....

... NZ is paying a very very heavy economic price vs Australia to bring the outbreak under control.

[fungus pudding]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8236071/Australia-records-just-13-new-coronavirus-cases-five-states-territories-posting-ZERO.html

Doesn't answer the question 'does Australia include rest home deaths in their convid19 toll?'

[Balance]

Doesn't answer the question 'does Australia include rest home deaths in their convid19 toll?'

That's for you to answer surely as you bring up the 'rumor'?

Same deal if I write that US deaths are a lot higher if those who died in Jan & Feb of flu were tested for cover-19, right? Onus on me to provide the proof.

[fungus pudding]

That's for you to answer surely as you bring up the 'rumor'?

Same deal if I write that US deaths are a lot higher if those who died in Jan & Feb of flu were tested for cover-19, right? Onus on me to provide the proof.

Proof of what? I made no claims whatsoever; I merely asked a question. I'm looking for the answer. I thought someone on this site may know. Anyway I can't follow your example - obviously your nonsensical, hypothetical premise 'US deaths are a lot higher if those who died in Jan & Feb of flu were tested for cover-19' can't be correct. Death toll doesn't change no matter whether they were tested, shot, poisoned, or Kenworthed. So they couldn't possibly be higher.

[Balance]

Proof of what? I made no claims whatsoever; I merely asked a question. I'm looking for the answer. I thought someone on this site may know. Anyway I can't follow your example - obviously your nonsensical, hypothetical premise 'US deaths are a lot higher if those who died in Jan & Feb of flu were tested for cover-19' can't be correct. Death toll doesn't change no matter whether they were tested, shot, poisoned, or Kenworthed. So they couldn't possibly be higher.
Nonsensical? Hypothetical?

Many people in the States died in Jan & Feb of the flu (as in seasonal flu) and the point has been made that as the cover-19 virus was already in the US then, many of those could have been because of cover-19, not the flu. Here's the article :

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/us/coronavirus-deaths-undercount.html

"In Virginia, a funeral director prepared the remains of three people after health workers cautioned her that they each had tested positive for the coronavirus. But only one of the three had the virus noted on the death certificate."

[Balance]

Proof of what? I made no claims whatsoever; I merely asked a question. I'm looking for the answer. I thought someone on this site may know.


But are they? Rumour has it that although their death rate is reported at 50% more than us per capita it excludes rest home deaths. If correct the difference could be huge.

You made an assertion (based upon a rumor) to try and counter the fact that Australia has actually smashed their curve without the 'strictest' lockdown in the world like NZ.

[fungus pudding]

Nonsensical? Hypothetical?

Many people in the States died in Jan & Feb of the flu (as in seasonal flu) and the point has been made that as the cover-19 virus was already in the US then, many of those could have been because of cover-19, not the flu. Here's the article :

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/us/coronavirus-deaths-undercount.html

"In Virginia, a funeral director prepared the remains of three people after health workers cautioned her that they each had tested positive for the coronavirus. But only one of the three had the virus noted on the death certificate."

But that doesn't tell us about Australia.

[Balance]

But that doesn't tell us about Australia.

The figures are as they are already published.

If you want to debate them, up to you to prove otherwise.

[fungus pudding]

The figures are as they are already published.

If you want to debate them, up to you to prove otherwise.

I have no desire to debate them. I do not even have information to debate with. I simply asked a question, and I have no idea how to prove a question.

[dobby41]

I have no desire to debate them. I do not even have information to debate with. I simply asked a question, and I have no idea how to prove a question.

It does sound a bit like a Trumpism - "I heard, but I could be wrong, but I heard xxx"
Get it out there and let it run.

[justakiwi]

Maybe put Australia aside for now and look at a country with a much more similar population.

11363

[Balance]

Maybe put Australia aside for now and look at a country with a much more similar population.


Nobody is disputing that NZ has done very well and we should all be very happy with how well from a health (no of infections and deaths) perspective.

But do we need to have the 'strictest' lockdown regime in the world to achieve it?

Australia, Taiwan and HK show we did not have to.

Why do we always have to compare against the those worse off than us? Can we as a country not aim higher and aspire to be truly the best?

And to be the best, you need to be objective and compare with the best.

[fungus pudding]

Maybe put Australia aside for now and look at a country with a much more similar population.

11363

Certainly don't put it aside. The stats are vital if we are to ever form the proposed Australasian bubble. That would be huge for us, and of benefit to Oz as well. I have no doubt it would save the motel industry for a start. At present there are more than 20 million Aussies who can't go to the regular spots, Bali, Fiji etc. With no options they would flock here - and the traditional skier market that floods Queenstown and Wanaka ever winter would be preserved.
Endless possibilities.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12326274

"Not one of the people on the Covid Response Cabinet Committee has ever run a business - and it shows."

" .... all sorts of things like depression, suicide, domestic violence and a whole lot of other social issues that cause far greater social damage.

"In the end the only thing that's going to save lives isn't just medical expertise - but an economy that's capable of providing the utilities to face the crisis."

[dobby41]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12326274

"Not one of the people on the Covid Response Cabinet Committee has ever run a business - and it shows."

" .... all sorts of things like depression, suicide, domestic violence and a whole lot of other social issues that cause far greater social damage.

"In the end the only thing that's going to save lives isn't just medical expertise - but an economy that's capable of providing the utilities to face the crisis."

I'm not sure Barry Soper (or his vocal wife) have run a business either but they seem to be 'experts' at lots of things.
Talking heads doing what they do best - talk.

[justakiwi]

All we have are our individual opinions. Mine is “yes, we do need to have the strictest lockdown regime” to achieve it. Without the lockdown restrictions we have had/still have, the figures may very well have been significantly different.




Nobody is disputing that NZ has done very well and we should all be very happy with how well from a health (no of infections and deaths) perspective.

But do we need to have the 'strictest' lockdown regime in the world to achieve it?

Australia, Taiwan and HK show we did not have to.

Why do we always have to compare against the those worse off than us? Can we as a country not aim higher and aspire to be truly the best?

And to be the best, you need to be objective and compare with the best.

[blackcap]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12326274

"Not one of the people on the Covid Response Cabinet Committee has ever run a business - and it shows."

" .... all sorts of things like depression, suicide, domestic violence and a whole lot of other social issues that cause far greater social damage.

"In the end the only thing that's going to save lives isn't just medical expertise - but an economy that's capable of providing the utilities to face the crisis."

Totally with you there Balance. The externalities of this lockdown are going to cost generations down the track a lower life expectancy, lower quality of life and a health system that will not be able to cope with excess issues because things right now are not being detected. ie a larger portion of ambulance at the bottom of the cliff is awaiting NZ because we have neglected the fence at the top. It's really sad to see actually.

They the PM has the gall to waffle on with her fake sincerity about "it's all about saving lives". No its not you devious lying politician. Its about making you look good and bugger the consequences for generations to come.

[jonu]

Every year Cabinet makes decisions on Health spending that cost hundreds of lives. Will they fund various types of cancer screening and at what levels? Will they raise funding levels for Pharmac? Funding for DHBs in general.

When the Health Minister from either party goes to Cabinet with their wish list for the Budget at any time in the next seven...maybe 10 years, they are going to be knocked back on all sorts of things because we can't afford it. The death toll will number in the thousands.

[Balance]

I'm not sure Barry Soper (or his vocal wife) have run a business either but they seem to be 'experts' at lots of things.
Talking heads doing what they do best - talk.

Barry was actually quoting Winston Peters in the excerpts I posted above!

[dobby41]

Barry was actually quoting Winston Peters in the excerpts I posted above!

I have heard him make the same comments himself.

[westerly]

Look across the Tasman - they are just as successful with containing the outbreak but without the horrendous impact on businesses.

Or Taiwan.

Why do we have to compare with countries which have not done well? Aim higher! Aspire higher! Achieve better than the ones who are doing well.

The ABs do not compare themselves against Canada - they compete against other world champions like England or South Africa, right?

Since when has public health become a competion? As for all the doom forecast on the economy and the social effects - thats all they are forecasts. Given that 10% of cases are health workers it is fairly obvious that efforts to reduce the number of cases is worthwhile.

westerly

[jonu]

Since when has public health become a competion? As for all the doom forecast on the economy and the social effects - thats all they are forecasts. Given that 10% of cases are health workers it is fairly obvious that efforts to reduce the number of cases is worthwhile.

westerly

Do you accept that the future Health Budget is being compromised by paying people to do nothing for 5 weeks?

Are you aware that supermarkets, which have face to face transactions across all sectors of the community, have not been hotbeds of infection?

[dobby41]

Do you accept that the future Health Budget is being compromised by paying people to do nothing for 5 weeks?

Are you aware that supermarkets, which have face to face transactions across all sectors of the community, have not been hotbeds of infection?

Are you suggesting we shouldn't have done anything then?

[Balance]

Are you suggesting we shouldn't have done anything then?

I read his comments as suggesting that the lockdown need not be the ‘strictest’ in the world.

If supermarkets & dairies can be opened, why couldn’t hardware stores like Mitre 10, general merchandise stores like Warehouse and Briscoe and appliances stores like Harvey Norman be opened?

[fungus pudding]

Do you accept that the future Health Budget is being compromised by paying people to do nothing for 5 weeks?

Are you aware that supermarkets, which have face to face transactions across all sectors of the community, have not been hotbeds of infection?

Don't all supermarkets have a screen to protect check out operator and customer?

[Balance]

Don't all supermarkets have a screen to protect check out operator and customer?

Easily installed - as they are now going to do with the fast food places.

[jonu]

Are you suggesting we shouldn't have done anything then?

No. I'm saying the risk can be managed in a much less expensive way.

[dobby41]

I read his comments as suggesting that the lockdown need not be the ‘strictest’ in the world.

If supermarkets & dairies can be opened, why couldn’t hardware stores like Mitre 10, general merchandise stores like Warehouse and Briscoe and appliances stores like Harvey Norman be opened?

And back around to that argument.

[dobby41]

No. I'm saying the risk can be managed in a much less expensive way.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
All expenses aren't in yet - from any country.

[jonu]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
All expenses aren't in yet - from any country.

And they never will be. There are plenty of ummeasurables on all sides of this problem. How many thousand lives will be lost because we can't improve the health system in years to come due to being swamped in debt?

[dobby41]

And they never will be. There are plenty of ummeasurables on all sides of this problem. How many thousand lives will be lost because we can't improve the health system in years to come due to being swamped in debt?

We could compare our effort with Ireland or Sweden?
Or compare with Aus after this is over because only then will you know the relative costs. Aus's response hasn't been free for the Govt or business you know.

[Balance]

We could compare our effort with Ireland or Sweden?
Or compare with Aus after this is over because only then will you know the relative costs. Aus's response hasn't been free for the Govt or business you know.

What a loser attitude some NZers have.

Compare with those who have done well and see how we rank - like Australia, HK or Taiwan - or even China.

The ABs do not compare themselves to Zimbabwe, Canada or Georgia - or maybe they do which is why we lost the RWC.

[iceman]

All we have are our individual opinions. Mine is “yes, we do need to have the strictest lockdown regime” to achieve it. Without the lockdown restrictions we have had/still have, the figures may very well have been significantly different.

That is only looking at the infection figures. I question whether they are the only figures we should be looking at, while the "house burns" and will take future generations decades to rebuild at great cost. It is easy to shut down an island at the bottom of the South Pacific and achieve low infection numbers. The hard work is yet to be done.

Last numbers I saw from Sweden (admittedly a few days old), which has basically done nothing except asking people to take care, had 80% of deaths were people over 70 and 70% of deaths were vulnerable people over 80 years old. Nobody had died under 30 years old. I am not advocating we should have done nothing like Sweden but this sole focus on infection numbers in NZ is wrong and politically driven with an eye on the upcoming election, not what is best for NZ in the long run.

Labour´s election manifesto is to get the infection numbers down and wheel out the likes of Helen Clark (Tui please) to be interviewed by the likes of The Atlantic like she was a couple of days ago singing Ardern´s praises, lapped up without scrutiny by the NZ media !

[justakiwi]

Would have thought that was obvious. Supermarkets are essential. Dairies are small and can easily manage customers on a one in one out basis. All other department type stores such as The Warehouse, Mitre 10, Briscoes, Farmers etc, are not fully essential stores. It would also be a nightmare to manage them as we currently are managing entry to supermarkets. Any essential items one needs from those stores can now be purchased online and delivered to your door ie: contactless. If you seriously think we are at the point where we can safely open up all those stores, you are dreaming.


I read his comments as suggesting that the lockdown need not be the ‘strictest’ in the world.

If supermarkets & dairies can be opened, why couldn’t hardware stores like Mitre 10, general merchandise stores like Warehouse and Briscoe and appliances stores like Harvey Norman be opened?

[Balance]

Would have thought that was obvious. Supermarkets are essential. Dairies are small and can easily manage customers on a one in one out basis. All other department type stores such as The Warehouse, Mitre 10, Briscoes, Farmers etc, are not fully essential stores. It would also be a nightmare to manage them as we currently are managing entry to supermarkets. Any essential items one needs from those stores can now be purchased online and delivered to your door ie: contactless. If you seriously think we are at the point where we can safely open up all those stores, you are dreaming.

Australia has those sort of places open and guess what?

Their infection numbers are as good as NZ.

Are Kiwis really so hopeless compared to the Ozzies that we cannot be trusted to operate these stores safely?

[jonu]

Would have thought that was obvious. Supermarkets are essential. Dairies are small and can easily manage customers on a one in one out basis. All other department type stores such as The Warehouse, Mitre 10, Briscoes, Farmers etc, are not fully essential stores. It would also be a nightmare to manage them as we currently are managing entry to supermarkets. Any essential items one needs from those stores can now be purchased online and delivered to your door ie: contactless. If you seriously think we are at the point where we can safely open up all those stores, you are dreaming.

Why would any of those large retailers be any more difficult than a supermarket?

[justakiwi]

Why take the risk when we can purchase from these storesonline? And once we are in Level 3, we will be able to buy anything from them, not only essential items.

I’m not talking forever. This is all temporary.


Why would any of those large retailers be any more difficult than a supermarket?

[justakiwi]

Sigh .... Whatever.


Australia has those sort of places open and guess what?

Their infection numbers are as good as NZ.

Are Kiwis really so hopeless compared to the Ozzies that we cannot be trusted to operate these stores safely?

[ynot]

Complex argument. Time may help resolve it but I doubt we will ever get to the bottom of this debate.
Will not know if we took the right path until we have a true measure of the aftermath.

[Balance]

Why take the risk when we can purchase from these storesonline? And once we are in Level 3, we will be able to buy anything from them, not only essential items.

I’m not talking forever. This is all temporary.

What risk if the stores are managed safely and properly like the supermarkets?

IKEA is opened in Australia and there’s a queue a km long all the time.

Are Kiwis really so hopeless vs the Aussies?

[Balance]

What risk if the stores are managed safely and properly like the supermarkets?

IKEA is opened in Australia and there’s a queue a km long all the time.

Are Kiwis really so hopeless vs the Aussies?

Plus, Aussies have been able to make more productive use of their lockdown time at home, upgrading their properties and homes.

Friends of mine in Pt Cook, Melbourne transformed their garden in the last 3 weeks - flower beds, trellises, new fences, glass house & new plantings of fruit trees - because Bunnings & gardening centres are opened!

Whole family got stuck in and they are ecstatic with what they have achieved as a family.

Guess the Aussies are better than us, huh - verdict of how this government locked NZ down vs Australia.

[justakiwi]

Well nothing anyone says will change your mind about any of this, but for what it’s worth, I disagree with you 100%. Have a nice evening.


Plus, Aussies have been able to make more productive use of their lockdown time at home, upgrading their properties and homes.

Friends of mine in Pt Cook, Melbourne transformed their garden in the last 3 weeks - flower beds, trellises, new fences, glass house & new plantings of fruit trees - because Bunnings & gardening centres are opened!

Whole family got stuck in and they are ecstatic with what they have achieved as a family.

Guess the Aussies are better than us, huh - verdict of how this government locked NZ down vs Australia.

[blackcap]

Plus, Aussies have been able to make more productive use of their lockdown time at home, upgrading their properties and homes.

Friends of mine in Pt Cook, Melbourne transformed their garden in the last 3 weeks - flower beds, trellises, new fences, glass house & new plantings of fruit trees - because Bunnings & gardening centres are opened!

Whole family got stuck in and they are ecstatic with what they have achieved as a family.

Guess the Aussies are better than us, huh - verdict of how this government locked NZ down vs Australia.

That is the galling thing for me. Plenty of stuff I would have liked to do at home, but cannot go to Mitre 10 so well lets not do it then. It was the chance for NZ to get a months worth of home stuff done that it has missed out on. Really short sighted by our Government. It would also have helped the sanity of many people greatly being able to be productive even whilst in lockdown. No different Mitre 10 to a supermarket one iota. If fact even a hell of a lot safer as the ailes are generally a lot wider and there is heaps more space. The govt missed a huge trick here.

[Balance]

That is the galling thing for me. Plenty of stuff I would have liked to do at home, but cannot go to Mitre 10 so well lets not do it then. It was the chance for NZ to get a months worth of home stuff done that it has missed out on. Really short sighted by our Government. It would also have helped the sanity of many people greatly being able to be productive even whilst in lockdown. No different Mitre 10 to a supermarket one iota. If fact even a hell of a lot safer as the ailes are generally a lot wider and there is heaps more space. The govt missed a huge trick here.

Let’s remember how this government is screwing businesses, risk takers and those who have get up and go to the wall, come September.

Social welfarism gone mad to gain popularity - that’s the long and short of how this government is implementing its so-called economic cushion to New Zealanders.

[dobby41]

Let’s remember how this government is screwing businesses, risk takers and those who have get up and go to the wall, come September.

Social welfarism gone mad to gain popularity - that’s the long and short of how this government is implementing its so-called economic cushion to New Zealanders.

How many businesses are screwed which wouldn't have been screwed with a 30% tourist downturn anyway?
Screwing business seems to be a throwaway line without anything to back it up.

[Balance]

How many businesses are screwed which wouldn't have been screwed with a 30% tourist downturn anyway?
Screwing business seems to be a throwaway line without anything to back it up.

Try the Mom and Dad cafes and restaurants for starters.

Then, move to the Warehouse, Mitre 10 and K-marts.

Not a sausage in direct help from this government - after their businesses are locked down with revenues squeezed to zero.

[dobby41]

Try the Mom and Dad cafes and restaurants for starters.

Then, move to the Warehouse, Mitre 10 and K-marts.

Not a sausage in direct help from this government - after their businesses are locked down with revenues squeezed to zero.

There will be impact for all the economy.
You can't expect the Govt to refund all lost earnings (no matter which style of lockdown you'd prefer implemented).
Many cafes and restautants will be affected and will go under because tourism is down.
Only a Sweden type approach would have allowed cafes and restaurants to continue to operate unhindered, and even then with the border closed patronage will be down.
I wouldn't be happy if the Govt used my taxes (and future generations) to prop up the Warehouse, K-mart etc.
I suspect you won't be happy with anything this Govt does but if National did the same they would be briliant. Usually you have a good economic head on your shoulders but politics givs you a jaundiced view.

[Balance]

There will be impact for all the economy.
You can't expect the Govt to refund all lost earnings (no matter which style of lockdown you'd prefer implemented).
Many cafes and restautants will be affected and will go under because tourism is down.
Only a Sweden type approach would have allowed cafes and restaurants to continue to operate unhindered, and even then with the border closed patronage will be down.
I wouldn't be happy if the Govt used my taxes (and future generations) to prop up the Warehouse, K-mart etc.
I suspect you won't be happy with anything this Govt does but if National did the same they would be briliant. Usually you have a good economic head on your shoulders but politics givs you a jaundiced view.

Look across to the Tasman and you will see what can be done - with the same results as we are getting here of tackling the virus.

Tourism down will impact on mostly tourism related businesses - all the more reason to allow Mum & Dad cafes & restaurants to do takeaways like in Australia to earn some income (because they are getting zero - their livelihoods have been pulled from them).

Propping up Warehouse, K-mart & Mitre 10? All they want is what Australia has done - allow them to open and in a safe manner, sell their products.

And the least that this government could have done is provide for rental relief - but no, its deeply ingrained socialist anti-landlord bias does not allow it to even do that!

Funny how you Labourites try and steer the debate away from Australia - an inferior complex?

[Bjauck]

Plus, Aussies have been able to make more productive use of their lockdown time at home, upgrading their properties and homes.

Friends of mine in Pt Cook, Melbourne transformed their garden in the last 3 weeks - flower beds, trellises, new fences, glass house & new plantings of fruit trees - because Bunnings & gardening centres are opened!

Whole family got stuck in and they are ecstatic with what they have achieved as a family.

Guess the Aussies are better than us, huh - verdict of how this government locked NZ down vs Australia. I know plenty of Kiwis who have spent the time renovating and rejuvenating their properties. If they have run out of product, they have turned to other things, like spring cleaning and pruning etc. You have to remember too, here in Auckland, thanks to government policies or lack of them by both National and Labour, over half of the properties are rental properties.

I have voted for both the Nats and Labs in the past, however I shudder to think how Simon Bridges would have handled Coronavirus. My
guess it would be more like what Boris Johnson has done in England.

[iceman]

Try the Mom and Dad cafes and restaurants for starters.

Then, move to the Warehouse, Mitre 10 and K-marts.

Not a sausage in direct help from this government - after their businesses are locked down with revenues squeezed to zero.

How would you expect that Balance with an attitude like Deborah Russell MP for New Lynn who doesn't understand why small businesses are so weak "after only a few weeks" of no revenue ??? https://www.facebook.com/nztaxpayers/videos/534688764103936/

[Balance]

How would you expect that Balance with an attitude like Deborah Russell MP for New Lynn who doesn't understand why small businesses are so weak "after only a few weeks" of no revenue ??? https://www.facebook.com/nztaxpayers/videos/534688764103936/

Words fail me!

[BlackPeter]

...

I have voted for both the Nats and Labs in the past, however I shudder to think how Simon Bridges would have handled Coronavirus. My
guess it would be more like what Boris Johnson has done in England.

Agreed - Bridges is not even able to make a credible opposition leader. Terrible timing for his criticisms and frequent pointless nagging instead of focusing on what really matters.

[dobby41]

Funny how you Labourites try and steer the debate away from Australia - an inferior complex?

I don't have any problem looking at what Aus has done.
It is interesting, similar per capita cases and a few more deaths.
But as it isn't over yet the full economic impact is not known.
What has been the $ impact in Australia and how much more to come?
The show isn't over until the fat lady sings - Singapore, Japan and others have shown that with cases spiking up again.

[Balance]

I don't have any problem looking at what Aus has done.
It is interesting, similar per capita cases and a few more deaths.
But as it isn't over yet the full economic impact is not known.
What has been the $ impact in Australia and how much more to come?
The show isn't over until the fat lady sings - Singapore, Japan and others have shown that with cases spiking up again.

What governments have to do is surely to cushion the impact - before the $ impact is known!

Keeping as many people in gainful employment and as many lockdown citizens in gainful pursuits at home - safely - is what I see the Australian government doing.

Being fair to employers and businesses by providing them with direct assistance at a time when their income have been reduced to zero - so that when the lockdown is lifted they can still employ staff - is what I see the Australian government doing.

Bandaid and populism in paying out $10 billion in wage subsidy is what this government is doing - for what if many of the SMEs do not survive?

[dobby41]

Being fair to employers and businesses by providing them with direct assistance at a time when their income have been reduced to zero - so that when the lockdown is lifted they can still employ staff - is what I see the Australian government doing.

And paying a wage subsidy isn't direct assistance?
Done so that the staff can stay connected to the business?

[jonu]

What governments have to do is surely to cushion the impact - before the $ impact is known!

Keeping as many people in gainful employment and as many lockdown citizens in gainful pursuits at home - safely - is what I see the Australian government doing.

Being fair to employers and businesses by providing them with direct assistance at a time when their income have been reduced to zero - so that when the lockdown is lifted they can still employ staff - is what I see the Australian government doing.

Bandaid and populism in paying out $10 billion in wage subsidy is what this government is doing - for what if many of the SMEs do not survive?

For what you ask Balance? To pander to their electorate of course!

[Joshuatree]

And paying a wage subsidy isn't direct assistance?
Done so that the staff can stay connected to the business?

Exactly how many $Billion have been handed out so far ,8-10? Incredible and unprecedented.

[jonu]

Exactly how many $Billion have been handed out so far ,8-10? Incredible and unprecedented.

Destined to end up in the hands of their voters. How magnanimous!

[dobby41]

Destined to end up in the hands of their voters. How magnanimous!

I suspect some non-Labour voters get the subsidy also.

[Balance]

Destined to end up in the hands of their voters. How magnanimous!

Exactly.

Meanwhile, the business owners and businesses are expected to survive - by using up any savings they have, borrowing more money to pay bills & pleading for relief from their landlords & suppliers.

If you do well in business in NZ by taking risks and working hard, this government view you as a parasite instead of a job & wealth creator. That’s clear from how they are providing relief from our taxes - to their voting base.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/prosper/121173801/coronavirus-labour-mp-deborah-russell-blames-businesses-for-struggling-during-covid19-lockdown

Tone-deaf to the needs of business - this whole life tit-feeding Labour MP expresses what the Labour government really feels about SMEs.

[jonu]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/prosper/121173801/coronavirus-labour-mp-deborah-russell-blames-businesses-for-struggling-during-covid19-lockdown

Tone-deaf to the needs of business - this whole life tit-feeding Labour MP expresses what the Labour government really feels about SMEs.

Even her Finance Minister disowned her. Tad embarrassing to see her true philosophy exposed.

[dobby41]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/prosper/121173801/coronavirus-labour-mp-deborah-russell-blames-businesses-for-struggling-during-covid19-lockdown

Tone-deaf to the needs of business - this whole life tit-feeding Labour MP expresses what the Labour government really feels about SMEs.

That's probably why (among other reasons) that she isn't a spokesperson for finance or business.
How does that become 'what the Labour government really feels about SMEs'?
Other than it fits the narrative that you believe.

[jonu]

That's probably why (among other reasons) that she isn't a spokesperson for finance or business.
How does that become 'what the Labour government really feels about SMEs'?
Other than it fits the narrative that you believe.

Because she obviously felt secure in blurting it out, thinking she was asking a patsy question to her Minister. The underlying, behind the scenes, philosophy exposed.

[Balance]

Because she obviously felt secure in blurting it out, thinking she was asking a patsy question to her Minister. The underlying, behind the scenes, philosophy exposed.

Exactly.

Thing is that they are dumb enough to do that in public what they obviously as a party believe in private.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12326641

Look at the way this academic (never ran a business or created one in her whole suck-from-taxpayers’ tits-existence) asked the question.

Disgusting that she receives any payments at all from the businesses paying tax.

[Joshuatree]

Is that why you have a foul mouth and are so offensive ,you weren't breast fed?. Try being less offensive and more reasonable as you lack credibility using such basic language. It does not help anyone being so offensive, just reflects poorly on you and then some of us , myself included give it back for some balance. I hope we can have an understanding of more decency on the threads.

[Balance]

Is that why you have a foul mouth and are so offensive ,you weren't breast fed?. Try being less offensive and more reasonable as you lack credibility using such basic language. It does not help anyone being so offensive, just reflects poorly on you and then some of us , myself included give it back for some balance. I hope we can have an understanding of more decency on the threads.

That's what she is - does the description not paint an accurate picture of this pathetic MP who owes her living right through her life to tax from the taxpayers?

Never created a single job or run a business in her whole life but is so quick to profess an opinion on how businesses are suffering.

Do you think she is remotely sensitive to the fact that her government has not made any genuine direct effort to help these struggling SMEs out?

What part of 'zero-revenues' does this useless state-sponsored and paid parasite not get? How insensitive to the suffering (stress and hardship) of the Mom and Pop businesses can you get?

[blackcap]

Is that why you have a foul mouth and are so offensive ,you weren't breast fed?. Try being less offensive and more reasonable as you lack credibility using such basic language. It does not help anyone being so offensive, just reflects poorly on you and then some of us , myself included give it back for some balance. I hope we can have an understanding of more decency on the threads.

People like Deborah Russell leech off society. Never do anything to make society better and all they do is bludge and suck at the teat of largesse, while telling us how to live. Its time the gravy train of bureaucracy in most of its forms was put to a stop sooner rather than later. She is what I call a negative contributor to society.

[fungus pudding]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12326641

Look at the way this academic (never ran a business or created one in her whole suck-from-taxpayers’ tits-existence) asked the question.

Disgusting that she receives any payments at all from the businesses paying tax.

I think that will earn her a large black mark within the party. Although their numbers are made up of the hapless and hopeless, at least most of them know when to keep their traps shut, and their thoughts to themselves. Among their dopiest - she is a shining star.

[iceman]

That's probably why (among other reasons) that she isn't a spokesperson for finance or business.
How does that become 'what the Labour government really feels about SMEs'?
Other than it fits the narrative that you believe.

She is their representative on the COVID-19 response select committee is she not ?

[Balance]

She is their representative on the COVID-19 response select committee is she not ?

In which case, this despicable sorry specimen of a MP should be removed forthwith before she causes more stress and anxiety to the SMEs, already forsaken by this government.

[Balance]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8244551/Australia-CRUSHES-coronavirus-Just-FOUR-people-diagnosed-COVID-19-24-hours.html

Only 4 new cases recorded in Australia yesterday (yes, 4) and,

they have done it without the 'strictest' lockdown in the world, unlike NZ.

Says a lot about how little this Labour government trust in NZers to do the right thing and,

how their MP Deborah Russell revealed for us all, the anti-business and pro-rampant social welfarism of this government.

[jonu]

I heard Deborah Russell on RNZ nights a few years ago advocating for quotas on female MPs, even to the point that they decide to select a woman in certain electorates or by-elections to achieve their "balanced numbers". This was around the time Cunliffe apologised for being a man.

This is of course how we ended up with Clare Curran in Cabinet, jobs for the girls...because well....they're girls. Cindy was so deperate to get female bums on cabinet seats.

We tend to forget the loony left element in Labour...they're normally kept discretely behind Cindy's skirts, but Russell has just come staggering into the light.

[Balance]

I heard Deborah Russell on RNZ nights a few years ago advocating for quotas on female MPs, even to the point that they decide to select a woman in certain electorates or by-elections to achieve their "balanced numbers". This was around the time Cunliffe apologised for being a man.

This is of course how we ended up with Clare Curran in Cabinet, jobs for the girls...because well....they're girls. Cindy was so deperate to get female bums on cabinet seats.

We tend to forget the loony left element in Labour...they're normally kept discretely behind Cindy's skirts, but Russell has just come staggering into the light.

From David Seymour : "Ever wondered what Labour MPs really think about business owners? If you run a business, let Deborah Russell explain where you went wrong, and why".

Labour's talent pool is so shallow, it looks like a dog puddle.

David Clark, Deborah Russell, Clare Curran, Phil Twyford, Iain Lees-Galloway - the list of incompetents go on and on.

[westerly]

From David Seymour : "Ever wondered what Labour MPs really think about business owners? If you run a business, let Deborah Russell explain where you went wrong, and why".

Labour's talent pool is so shallow, it looks like a dog puddle.

David Clark, Deborah Russell, Clare Curran, Phil Twyford, Iain Lees-Galloway - the list of incompetents go on and on.

Carefull balance, if you lean any further right you risk falling over. :)

westerly

[jonu]

Carefull balance, if you lean any further right you risk falling over. :)

westerly

In fairness, I don't think exposing Labour's flaky leftists amounts to leaning right. It means watch the hell out for the flaky leftist.

[fungus pudding]

In fairness, I don't think exposing Labour's flaky leftists amounts to leaning right. It means watch the hell out for the flaky leftist.

True. Even Westerly must realise his/her wonderful Labour party has more than its share of incompetent deadbeats. Incidentally there's a glaring omission from Balance's list of incompetents. One who has in fact had extensive business experience, with his failed developments, ventures and bankruptcies.

[Balance]

In fairness, I don't think exposing Labour's flaky leftists amounts to leaning right. It means watch the hell out for the flaky leftist.

In my time, I have voted Labour several times when I agree with its leadership and policies.

I simply do not agree with the current economic policies and the incompetent broken-promises failed-policies hypocritical state of this coalition government, where one tail (NZF) is constantly wagging the dog.

In contrast, it is clear that westerly only ever see the Labour Party via the Bull Dusted PR glasses he wears.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12326983

No help for the Mom & Dad businesses (they deserve to fail, according to Deborah Russell) but for the media which fawns over Cindy, here's $50m to start with.

Cindy showing her true colors.

[BlackPeter]

True. Even Westerly must realise his/her wonderful Labour party has more than its share of incompetent deadbeats. Incidentally there's a glaring omission from Balance's list of incompetents. One who has in fact had extensive business experience, with his failed developments, ventures and bankruptcies.

Didn't Jenny Shipley work for National?

[nztx]

A one-off SpendFest & Large P*ss-up on Robertson being considered ... then what ?

Is this another vote buying bribe from Labor, seemingly not even looking ahead to NZ's future ?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121205189/finance-minister-not-ruling-out-dropping-cash-to-new-zealanders

At times like this, it's very easy to see the lack of Depth in Labour's talent pool

Squander it up today with no thought for tomorrow ..

Future generations will pay very dearly for Labour's incompetence and failure to act decisively early enough on C-19

[Joshuatree]

What planet are you on!? Extreme negativity and lies here. I know this is the national strategy, you sound like a paid hack, acolyte for simon and extremely trump like. repeat it over and over and over and the mug New Zealandewrs will believe it. A trump tactic. I rate kiwis much higher then you do.

[Joshuatree]

Bambis? Balance showing his usual national spin, Its so see through and transparent and repetitive over and over just like trump his role model.But he hates trump but uses his tactics.True colours alright.

[nztx]

Wait for all the so-called "Lies & Negativity" apparently seen now by some hiding behind selective Pink Tints to turn mysteriously into grim reality..

It wont be far off...

[Balance]

Bambis? Balance showing his usual national spin, Its so see through and transparent and repetitive over and over just like trump his role model.But he hates trump but uses his tactics.True colours alright.

That your only counter against the incompetence of Cindy & her ministers? And the blatant politicking using the virus outbreak as cover?

Pathetic.

I did not even vote National in the last election - there goes your argument. Flat as a pancake.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12326983

No help for the Mom & Dad businesses (they deserve to fail, according to Deborah Russell) but for the media which fawns over Cindy, here's $50m to start with.

Cindy showing her true colors.

Why should they be helped? The post covid environment will be fundamentally different and giving direct subsidies is what Muldoon would do. Consumers should be given money so they can "vote" for the best businesses and will lead us into the future in a VIABLE long-term way.

[Balance]

Why should they be helped? The post covid environment will be fundamentally different and giving direct subsidies is what Muldoon would do. Consumers should be given money so they can "vote" for the best businesses and exporters given the special help.

Peasant class logic.

Why should the media be helped then?

Why should employees be helped?

[Panda-NZ-]

Peasant logic.

Why should the media be helped then?

Why should employees be helped?

The only concern should be the NZ economy. Muldoonist payments with no criteria (or picking winners) will result in people and businesses pocketing it. Though having it directly tied to wages means something is done and the jobless problem is reduced and delayed.

[Balance]

The only concern should be the NZ economy. Muldoonist payments with no criteria (or picking winners) will result in people and businesses pocketing it. Though having it directly tied to wages means something is done and the jobless problem is reduced and delayed.

Garbage.

The lockdown reduced the revenues of businesses to zero - zilch. That’s not their fault - just as it’s not the media fault that advertising revenues dried up.

So why is the government helping the media then?

In Australia, the government offers $20k to $100k to tide businesses over as long as they keep staff on. That is smart economics - not picking winners but keeping businesses going so that they have a stable economic platform to relaunch on.

We have a dumb government with bugger all economic sense - strictest lockdown to achieve the same results as Australia at huge economic costs to NZers.

So if you are in business, too bad - you will have zero help from this government which promised 10,000 new builds a year via Kiwibuild. That’s how credible Cindy & her incompetent ministers are.

[Panda-NZ-]

Banks are offering generous business loan repayment terms (sometimes underwritten by govt) and some landlords are too so there is relief being offered.

Limited liability means you can simply walk away and start another business.

[Balance]

Banks are offering generous business loan repayment terms and some landlords are too so there is relief being offered in the private market.

Limited liability means you can simply walk away and start another business.

Garbage again.

Banks & landlords these days require personal guarantees from Mom & Dad businesses.

You know you are sounding like Deborah Russell, right?

[Balance]

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/04/23/1140808/loan-scheme-not-so-open-for-business

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2020/04/coronavirus-banks-accused-of-refusing-to-lend-money-to-tourism-businesses-desperate-for-finance.html

So much for the government loan scheme with the banks to assist businesses through the virus lockdown and crisis.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/04/23/1140808/loan-scheme-not-so-open-for-business

So much for the government loan scheme with the banks.

In that example a hotel owner is mentioned. Is it worth throwing taxpayers money away on these people when demand will not come back?

What would you like to see, do you expect every business to be paid their expenses?

[Balance]

In that example a hotel owner is mentioned. Is it worth throwing taxpayers money away on these people when demand will not come back?

What would you like to see, do you expect every business to be paid their expenses?

So why is Cindy helping the media then?

And as for picking winners, is that not what the Provincial Growth Fund doing?

[Panda-NZ-]

So why is Cindy helping the media then?


That is wrong too and shouldn't happen. Though it's not expensive unlike what others seem to be hinting at. The bad ideas should always be called out IMO.

Assets, buildings will be taken over by recievers who will sell it on to some other group. This is desirable and LLC's and the Companies Act etc are tailor made for this sitation. Try not to worry so much they are being advised by competent people. Blue or red, all they do is post on social media and collect a salary while the real work is done behind the scenes. Though for disclosure sake I generally prefer Labour (minus the chch rebuild nats have nothing since GDP "per capita" was in stagnantion at best or decline).

[Joshuatree]

Agents of misfortune
"Labour MP Deborah Russell has copped a lot of flak this week from left wingers (https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/04/22/what-on-earth-was-deborah-russell-thinking/) and right wingers alike for suggesting – in a question she posed to Grant Robertson at the Epidemic Response Committee – that maybe some of the small businesses struggling to survive Covid-19 came into the crisis in a weakened state. Could our low wage economy, she asked Robertson, have induced some people to set up shop when they lacked the expertise, business advice and resources necessary to survive a major external shock ?
Robertson and PM Jacinda Ardern both quickly distanced themselves from Russell, and from any inference that Labour thought that firms being hit by a once-in-a-century pandemic might have been in any way the agents of their own misfortune. But hang on. How is what Russell said any different to Robertson himself saying only a week or so ago, that mainstream media companies came into the Covid-19 crisis with pre-existing conditions?
Russell wasn’t saying these firms had only themselves to blame and/or didn’t deserve government support. She was asking whether Robertson thought our low wage economy had left them vulnerable, and less resilient. If politicians on the centre-left are being forbidden to debate such matters in public, then we’re really in bad shape. After all, the centre-right is usually more than happy to let low-income workers and beneficiaries go to the wall, and blame them for their plight"
Gordon Campbell on why governments are in effect, printing cash to defeat Covid-19 (http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/04/gordon-campbell-on-why-governments-are-in-effect-printing-cash-to-defeat-covid-19/)

[dobby41]

So why is Cindy helping the media then?

Because we need competition in the media?
It will be interesting if they give much more to print media given that it has been going down for years whereas radio is still viable long term with a bit of help to get them through this.

[Balance]

Because we need competition in the media?
It will be interesting if they give much more to print media given that it has been going down for years whereas radio is still viable long term with a bit of help to get them through this.

Because they have been so besotted with her and promote her at every opportunity possible.

[dobby41]

Because they have been so besotted with her and promote her at every opportunity possible.

I hope not but I don't think NewsTalk ZB is very besotted with her (quite the opposite) but they get relief also.
Your bias is showing big time in this.
I know they will never do anything right in your book but some people are just like that.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12327102

Home truths about this government :

Ardern may be one of the world's best symbolic communicators, but that can't hide her Government's profound incompetence.

It has failed utterly on

housing,

wellbeing,

child poverty,

tertiary education participation,

school management reform,

freshwater allocation,

cleaner rivers,

the capital gains tax,

openness and transparency,

mental health and

even gun reform.

Growth was slowing before the world had suffered even its first case of Covid-19.

Ardern introduced rigorous quarantining at the border well after Australia, costing a handful of lives, and her health authorities have proven incompetent at distributing either flu vaccines or PPE.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12327102

Home truths about this government :


Interesting that the only viable alternative is worse on all/most of these things. It's about choosing the better option not the "perfect" option.

[Balance]

Interesting that the only viable alternative is worse on all/most of these things. It's about choosing the better option not the perfect option.

Sad state of a loser mindset.

Lucky it is only contagious and infectious amongst losers?

[Panda-NZ-]

If things are good why change or risk a change?

[Balance]

If things are good why change or risk a change?

Sounds like Muldoon.

No vision and no inspiration for improvenments.

[jonu]

Sobering reading. The threesome government could get even worse!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121235996/leftwing-green-faction-wants-to-axe-coleader-james-shaw-and-eugenie-sage-and-chle-swarbrick

[fungus pudding]

Sobering reading. The threesome government could get even worse!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121235996/leftwing-green-faction-wants-to-axe-coleader-james-shaw-and-eugenie-sage-and-chle-swarbrick


Won't happen.

[nztx]

Exactly as was thought was going to happen -- Huge Unemployment being reported on TV tonight

With some forecasting even more to follow as businesses do not come back

Announcement from WHS today on extent of their fiscal hole & a first indication of further
employment retrenchment on that one alone.

Applied across all the other affected SME's there will likely be another huge wave of unemployed
on the way

Labour have failed New Zealanders, NZ Business and all those now either unemployed or becoming
so shortly through the way the have handled C-19 and timeliness of measures

At best, Labour have orchestrated on NZ nothing short of an incompetently devised Dogs Breakfast of things

[Panda-NZ-]

Simon would have done preciesly the same things. Australia is far more prolifigate with their spending but they haven't managed their money well for some time.. no excuse for not running a surplus during their boom years.

Their welfare is 75% of the minimum wage not 40% like the base rate in nz. Business oreintated people need to take advantage of the situation rather than waste time in politics. The ones who do will own the market and have less competitioon.

[nztx]

Simon would have done preciesly the same things. Australia is far more prolifigate with their spending but they haven't managed their money well for some time.. no excuse for not running a surplus during the boom years.

Their welfare is 75% of the minimum wage not 40% like the base rate in nz. Business oreintated people need to take advantage of the situation rather than waste time in politics. The ones who do will own the market and have less competitioon.

Would he -- or are you surmising / guessing without knowing ?
If there is a comparison between Australia & NZ then who knows past this Labor have managed to gut the economy
to far greater degree than Australia have, out of C-19 Despite disasters there they may still come out better than NZ

Suggestion of what Business should do is no excuse for Labor effectively abandoning their responsibilities to 'the hands that feed"
in the process gutting & stuffing the economy, shafting business & employers whilst putting considerable subsidies in employees hands

[Panda-NZ-]

Would he -- or are you surmising / guessing without knowing ?
If there is a comparison between Australia & NZ then who knows past this Labor have managed to gut the economy
to far greater degree than Australia have, out of C-19 Despite disasters there they may still come out better than NZ

Suggestion of what Business should do is no excuse for Labor effectively abandoning their responsibilities to 'the hands that feed"
in the process gutting & stuffing the economy, shafting business & employers whilst putting considerable subsidies in employees hands

Uhh.. a subsidy for consumers is a subsidy for business. The ones THEY want to buy from.
BTW Australia have put in place a freeze on evictions for six months, another bad policy so tenants will have no incentive to pay rent or even work. Our policies are world leading for the moment in terms of effectiveness thus far.

[nztx]

Uhh.. a subsidy for consumers is a subsidy for business. The ones THEY want to buy from.
BTW Australia have put in place a freeze on evictions for six months, another bad policy so tenants will have no incentive to pay rent or even work. Our policies are world leading for the moment in terms of effectiveness I think.

That is the selective Businesses (allowed by Govt's selective reasoning) provided they are still standing after being basically ignored
by an Incompetent Govt; that is past having been made an unpaid disbursement proxy medium for Govt's wages subsidies...

[nztx]

Why is Robertson busy 'bumming around" pushing out feel good fluff on this sort of minor thing ? -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121215598/coronavirus-more-than-16-million-in-wage-subsidy-to-be-refunded-after-government-audit

when there are large & small businesses starting to open their books on the true financial affect of Labor's directed C-19 closures
with a vast avalanche of potential reduced pay or down the road / redundancies undoubtedly on the way ?

The Warehouse wont be last, many more large, medium & small will likely follow

All these businesses have basically been ignored by Govt, which has failed badly in looking after the 'hand that feeds'
for much of the business in affected sectors of the economy..

All affected Employees out of a job, on reduced hours or reduced pay can now clearly point the finger at and blame
Robertson & this economically incompetent Labour Govt for this even happening in the first place..

[Balance]

That is the selective Businesses (allowed by Govt's selective reasoning) provided they are still standing after being basically ignored
by an Incompetent Govt; that is past having been made an unpaid disbursement proxy medium for Govt's wages subsidies...

nztx, no point debating with an obvious one-eyed Labourite with the same business credentials of Cindy’s government - as in None, zero, zilch.

Heard an interview of Deborah Russell on radio this evening - she not only did not apologise for her dastardly & insulting comments on SMEs, she said Cindy did not reprimand her when they talked privately! Cindy told her to hang in there and she will be alright - reinforcing the hypocritical two-faces of Cindy.

Same Cindy who tried to hoodwink NZers that the L4 extension is only 2 business days, when clearly it is 4 business days.

This government cannot hide its disdain for businesses and those who prosper by working hard, taking risks and saving hard.

[Panda-NZ-]

Grant Roberston said from the outset: "These measures will not save every business".

[nztx]

Did Labour leave 'affected individuals" without the ability to pay -

their Rent
their Phone bills
their Power bills

or ability to survive ?

It all seems shortsighted on Labour's part - if they are expecting businesses to continue employing or bounce back
in affected sectors - to continue employing ...

[Balance]

https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/04/13/the-coming-economic-crisis-and-its-political-consequences/

Anyway, Labour will be history comes September according to Sir Bob Jones.

No government can survive this coming economic winter of discontent of high unemployment, and business failures.

As is often quoted :

‘Recession is when your neighbour loses his job. Depression is when you lose yours.’

‘Tolerable is when your neighbour loses his house. Intolerable is when you lose yours.’

Simon Bridges if he is still leader of Opposition need not say anything but to just let the misery of despondency surface the economic incompetency & bankruptcy of Cindy’s government.

[JBmurc]

https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/04/13/the-coming-economic-crisis-and-its-political-consequences/

Anyway, Labour will be history comes September according to Sir Bob Jones.

No government can survive this coming economic winter of discontent of high unemployment, and business failures.

As is often quoted :

‘Recession is when your neighbour loses his job. Depression is when you lose yours.’

‘Tolerable is when your neighbour loses his house. Intolerable is when you lose yours.’

Simon Bridges if he is still leader of Opposition need not say anything but to just let the misery of despondency surface the economic incompetency & bankruptcy of Cindy’s government.

Much too much common sense from Bob ... Jacinda fan club will not understand economics ... as we keep getting told every day its all about saving COVID deaths that had we not locked down would be thousands ...

which IMHO is FEAR driven very black n white .I'm sure a middle point could have been reached after 2 weeks of lockdown-4 where those fit healthy very low risk kiwis could chose to return to work under level-3

then if no major outbreak from this down to level-2 by after this weekend..I'm sure economically this would have done far less damage mentally and economically ..
Also many more food outlets should have been allowed to stay open if kept to strict guidelines --

As we know NZ has one of the highest Suicide rates in the western world
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/106532292/new-zealand-suicide-rate-highest-since-records-began?rm=m

New Zealand has the highest death rate for teenagers and young people among 19 of the world's developed, wealthy countries........

The study of 6000 children also found that a third said they were facing challenges in some aspects of their life, and one in 10 faced multiple challenges, including racism, discrimination, bullying, poverty, violence and drugs....

has only got worse under Jacinda and team..

Now we are looking at 20%+ unemployment ?? the effects will be far more damaging and effects felt for many years..

[fungus pudding]

Much too much common sense from Bob ... Jacinda fan club will not understand economics ... as we keep getting told every day its all about saving COVID deaths that had we not locked down would be thousands ...

which IMHO is FEAR driven very black n white .I'm sure a middle point could have been reached after 2 weeks of lockdown-4 where those fit healthy very low risk kiwis could chose to return to work under level-3 then if no major outbreak from this down to level-2 by after this weekend..I'm sure economically this would have done far less damage mentally and economically ..

As we know NZ has one of the highest Suicide rates in the western world
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/106532292/new-zealand-suicide-rate-highest-since-records-began?rm=m

New Zealand has the highest death rate for teenagers and young people among 19 of the world's developed, wealthy countries........

The study of 6000 children also found that a third said they were facing challenges in some aspects of their life, and one in 10 faced multiple challenges, including racism, discrimination, bullying, poverty, violence and drugs....

has only got worse under Jacinda and team..

Now we are looking at 20%+ unemployment ?? the effects will be far more damaging and effects felt for years..

The Swedish approach has given them more them around 180 deaths per million.
Our approach has given 4 per million.
On the face of that it's easy to assume the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
This is the result to date, but hardly the end of the story. In years to come, when murders, suicides, heart attacks etc that can be attributed to this virus are calculated,the picture could change drastically. Then and only then will we start to know what the best approach would have been.

[Balance]

Much too much common sense from Bob ... Jacinda fan club will not understand economics ... as we keep getting told every day its all about saving COVID deaths that had we not locked down would be thousands .

Now we are looking at 20%+ unemployment ?? the effects will be far more damaging and effects felt for many years..

Agreed.

So expect Cindy & her bunch of incompetents to pour out the billions of dollars in social welfare benefits during July - September, just before the election.

Will not help however as this government has ZERO appreciation that it's businesses which create jobs - not the social welfare beneficiaries.

[JBmurc]

The Swedish approach has given them more them around 180 deaths per million.
Our approach has given 4 per million.
On the face of that it's easy to assume the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
This is the result to date, but hardly the end of the story. In years to come, when murders, suicides, heart attacks etc that can be attributed to this virus are calculated,the picture could change drastically. Then and only then will we start to know what the best approach would have been.

Yes I guess its all hindsight as the FEAR of DEATH was strong early on ...will be interesting to see stats on influenza deaths during this lockdown period..

[JBmurc]

Agreed.

So expect Cindy & her bunch of incompetents to pour out the billions of dollars in social welfare benefits during July - September, just before the election.

Will not help however as this government has ZERO appreciation that it's businesses which create jobs - not the social welfare beneficiaries.

Yes I'm very worried how the COL will go about running NZ economically rest of the year(haven't showed much skills to date kiwibuild etc) ,,, Winnie+NZ first will go renegade to shore up votes won't help ...

[Joshuatree]

Unbalanced doing the usual misinformation national beneficiary bashing, tired and no empathy(look it up in the dictionary), not forgetting the re multiple $billions maybe $50 billion eventually to help our country recover. Really happy with most of our ministers especially Robertson, a very steady pair of hands there.

[Balance]

Unbalanced doing the usual misinformation national beneficiary bashing, tired and no empathy(look it up in the dictionary), not forgetting the re multiple $billions maybe $50 billion eventually to help our country recover. Really happy with most of our ministers especially Robertson, a very steady pair of hands there.

Get ready to buy your property, JT. Told you that the recovery will be in 2021 and you did not believe me.

[fungus pudding]

Unbalanced doing the usual misinformation national beneficiary bashing, tired and no empathy(look it up in the dictionary), not forgetting the re multiple $billions maybe $50 billion eventually to help our country recover. Really happy with most of our ministers especially Robertson, a very steady pair of hands there.

Albeit - a long way apart.

[nztx]

A Very Long Hard Winter coming up for many

Reports of Rapidly rising Unemployment appearing in the Media, but that's just the start

More retrenchments & Further Unemployment on the way

Winz will be very busy as they have never known before .. Accommodation & Other Top ups will be in demand

There will be a lot of unhappy folk around, having lost Jobs, Houses, Businesses and livelyhoods during Labour's dastardly very late overkill of the job


All these affected folk are sure going to want to be throwing support behind a Tardy floundering Labour crew.. but only if they have their 'block all light out'blinkers on securely...

[Panda-NZ-]

All these affected folk are sure going to want to be throwing support behind a Tardy floundering Labour crew.. but only if they have their 'block all light out'blinkers on securely...

Returning expats (400k) from the social markets of europe will be added to the voter rolls. With their public transport, legal marijuana and social policies, tax free bands/thresholds and more ambitious climate policies they will look at NZ and want to improve it compared to the state of the country they left and we took in third world migrants to replace.

"Hmmm.. what's going on here with this no exemption GST, no tax free band etc". They don't have a stake in property or land either.

[nztx]

Returning expats (400k) from the social markets of europe will be added to the voter rolls. With their public transport, legal marijuana and social policies, tax free bands/thresholds and more ambitious climate policies they will look at NZ and want to improve it compared to the state of the country they left and we took in third world migrants to replace.

"Hmmm.. what's going on here with this no exemption GST, no tax free band etc". They don't have a stake in property or land either.


What earlier background would many of these probably monied mobile expats have likely come from in first place ?

would they likely support 'a head in the sand' cause, with a long track record of reaking economic carnage ?

[Zaphod]

Good to see Twyford doing his bit to encourage councils to keep rates low under the circumstances: [Quote] "Don't cut your rates"

"If you want Government to be a partner, investing alongside you in your communities, we expect you to use your balance sheets and do your bit."

[jonu]

Finally someone smelling the coffee!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121206976/prime-minister-needs-to-be-held-to-account-over-coronavirus-claims

[macduffy]

Finally someone smelling the coffee!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121206976/prime-minister-needs-to-be-held-to-account-over-coronavirus-claims

That Steve Elers needs to see someone about his tendency to throw things at the TV!

;)

[nztx]

That Steve Elers needs to see someone about his tendency to throw things at the TV!

;)

As long as he does it within his bubble, he should be okay

When he starts throwing the TV at the perceived offenders then they will prob run away ;)

[nztx]

The Media whiners are probably too busy cuddled up around the Media Communal Wishing Well, hoping for another visit from Robertson to throw in another large Govt Donation - that not one would dare break wind or burp to disturb the chances..

And for that matter they probably dont think they should have to come up with a valid reason on why they should be excluded from the larger Wishing Pool, which Robertson has constantly ignored & avoided..

[Balance]

“And yes, the Government will eventually have to answer for all the damage to the economy that it has unnecessarily inflicted with a too-restrictive lockdown.

The lockdown might be justified, but total economic shut down and the length of it will come under scrutiny.

Most likely National will bounce back and most likely voters will again believe the narrative that it is the party best suited to fixing a shattered economy.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12327334

[Panda-NZ-]

The Media whiners are probably too busy cuddled up around the Media Communal Wishing Well, hoping for another visit from Robertson to throw in another large Govt Donation - that not one would dare break wind or burp to disturb the chances..


On the contrary I thnik there's too much news on the 'opposition'. I don't really care what simon or goldsmith thinks about a policy but they make us hear it anyway. They are not the government and its not quite relevent what they think.

[stoploss]

Interesting to take a look back at this , pity Twyford didn't ask himself the same questions when he had the mandate to fix it .....
https://www.interest.co.nz/property/81428/housing-minister-says-government-does-not-believe-there-housing-crisis-sees-challenge
Remember the howling from Labour when National was using motels .....
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121278117/coronavirus-government-funds-1600-motel-units-for-homeless-after-lockdown

[iceman]

On the contrary I thnik there's too much news on the 'opposition'. I don't really care what simon or goldsmith thinks about a policy but they make us hear it anyway. They are not the government and its not quite relevent what they think.

Do yoiu really think so ? This Government shut down parliament and runs the country by a small committee. After 9/11 and the Chch/Kaikoura earthquakes previous Governments called extraordinary sessions of parliament to debate their actions. After all we are a parliamentary democracy. The current way this country is being run is scary, with the only focus on COVID numbers and everything else left to crash and burn. People that do not agree with St Cindy and her followers are attacked and rubbished in conventional and social media. This is not healthy.
The World will look back in a year or two and I am not sure the NZ reaction to this crisis will get a high mark overall with our huge unemployment and enconomic ruin.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121247586/why-the-heroworship-of-jacinda-ardern-is-unhealthy

[Zaphod]

Do yoiu really think so ? This Government shut down parliament and runs the country by a small committee. After 9/11 and the Chch/Kaikoura earthquakes previous Governments called extraordinary sessions of parliament to debate their actions. After all we are a parliamentary democracy. The current way this country is being run is scary, with the only focus on COVID numbers and everything else left to crash and burn. People that do not agree with St Cindy and her followers are attacked and rubbished in conventional and social media. This is not healthy.
The World will look back in a year or two and I am not sure the NZ reaction to this crisis will get a high mark overall with our huge unemployment and enconomic ruin.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121247586/why-the-heroworship-of-jacinda-ardern-is-unhealthy

Agreed. This is a completely different situation than normal. There are bills being proposed, including one to nullify various aspects of the Human Rights Act, and it is extremely important that we hear the opposition's view points as well. if anything, this is a time where would should be paying far more attention to what the Government and opposition are saying.

[Vagabond47]

You don't see a difference between emergencies that were short duration events (over in minutes essentially), and the current pandemic, which is an on-going thing? And the fact that the MPs and their staff, and other parliamentary staff travelling will in fact be a vector for spreading covid-19, unlike earthquakes which aren't contagious last time I checked.

[blackcap]

You don't see a difference between emergencies that were short duration events (over in minutes essentially), and the current pandemic, which is an on-going thing? And the fact that the MPs and their staff, and other parliamentary staff travelling will in fact be a vector for spreading covid-19, unlike earthquakes which aren't contagious last time I checked.

Not at all. Your argument seems rather bizarre. Supermarket staff and customers seem to be doing ok without spreading covid-19 so I am pretty sure the more important task of governing this country can be done without becoming a "vector".

[jonu]

Not at all. Your argument seems rather bizarre. Supermarket staff and customers seem to be doing ok without spreading covid-19 so I am pretty sure the more important task of governing this country can be done without becoming a "vector".

Supermarkets prove the foolishness of the severity of the lockdown levels. They haven't been a hotbed of infection and yet they are accessed by every sector of society on a regular basis.

[Vagabond47]

sigh, the regular legislative program is on hold until parliament resumes, the only parliamentary actions in happening at the moment are temporary measures related to the pandemic, and they did setup a special committee including Simon bloody bridges to review this stuff.

[jonu]

sigh, the regular legislative program is on hold until parliament resumes, the only parliamentary actions in happening at the moment are temporary measures related to the pandemic, and they did setup a special committee including Simon bloody bridges to review this stuff.

Why the sigh?
This government had no mandate to spend tens of billions in the manner that they have. No mandate to curtail civil rights in the manner that they have. (this is a statement of fact, not a criticism). They rely solely on parts of the Health Act and Civil Defence Act to move to a State of Emergency.

It is imperative that they are held to close scrutiny through this process. A very small number of people have made decisions to spend billions of dollars with no mandate other than they happened to be in the hotseat at the time.

[iceman]

Why the sigh?
This government had no mandate to spend tens of billions in the manner that they have. No mandate to curtail civil rights in the manner that they have. (this is a statement of fact, not a criticism). They rely solely on parts of the Health Act and Civil Defence Act to move to a State of Emergency.

It is imperative that they are held to close scrutiny through this process. A very small number of people have made decisions to spend billions of dollars with no mandate other than they happened to be in the hotseat at the time.

Absolutely correct. The "sigh" is a typical response. Nobody is supposed to say anything that may seem like criticism of the Government. It is also very debatable whether the "legislative program" is on hold. Only a couple of weeks ago did the Government circumvent normal parliamentary process by pushing through (by stealth) the prisoner voting bill past the select committee. Do not think for a minute this lot is not using this pandemic to quietly advance their political agenda without scrutiny, particulartly through the tens of bilions they are spending in the name of the pandemic. The amounts are so huge that nobody can monitor nor question them, hence the need for parliamentary debate.

[Vagabond47]

*sigh*

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansD_20200325_20200325

Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The National Party stands to support this bill and the efforts of the Government to try and respond to this unprecedented challenge to our way of life and our health and our ability to earn a living and look after ourselves and our families.
[...]
Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Imprest Supply (Third for 2019/20) Bill in front of us today—as has been mentioned, $52 billion that the Government is, I guess, seeking from this House to ensure the work that the Minister of Finance and those supporting him have been doing to support New Zealand businesses, New Zealand's self-employed, New Zealand banks, New Zealand individuals, New Zealand homes, and New Zealand families while we deal with what we need to deal with to address COVID-19.
[...]
Hon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): I rise with the National Party supporting this legislation, and we do so knowing its importance but also the significant impact it will have on all New Zealanders for so very many years to come. The finance Minister in his intervention earlier said that this is about jobs—saving jobs—and about saving homes, and National agrees with him. Indeed, it's about giving certainty and surety to every single New Zealander and for them to know that this House stands beside them.
[..]
Hon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change): I rise to confirm the Green Party's support for this imprest supply bill.

[...]
Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House): Following discussions across the House, I seek leave for the introduction and passing through all stages of the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill and the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill, and that there be no debate on the first and second readings, and no committee stage of those bills.

SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that process being followed? There appears to be none.
1st and 2nd readings..
[..]Third Reading

Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I move, That the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill be now read a third time. [...]
[..]
Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you, Madam Speaker. National will be supporting this piece of legislation, the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill. Ordinarily, we wouldn't be wildly enthusiastic about rushing through legislation involving tax and social security changes. Ordinarily, you would want to spend many months having a select committee process and making sure that things have been done properly and we're not having unintended consequences, but we understand the need to move swiftly. This is part of the Government's COVID-19 response.
[..]
Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): Kia ora, Madam Speaker. So I rise on behalf of my colleague Fletcher Tabuteau to contribute on behalf of New Zealand First to the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill. New Zealand First will be supporting the bill.
[..]
Hon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): Madam Speaker, thank you. The National Party also supports this legislation, and we do so because it's important that we can move on and people can have certainty.

Yep, no mandate.. none at all. Clowns:p:p:p:p:p

[JBmurc]

With major questions arising over Jacinda Ardern’s judgement in adopting the elimination strategy and imposing one of the strictest lockdowns in the world, the lack of scrutiny of her decision-making is disturbing.

Treasury has quantified the devastating cost to the economy of the PM’s extremist approach. As a result of four weeks of lockdown, unemployment is expected to rise from four per cent to 13.5 per cent – increasing the number of unemployed from 111,000 to 371,000. It’s anticipated that a further $20 billion in Government support will be needed to cushion the blow – in addition to the $25 billion already spent fighting the virus.

According to the OECD, the prime minister’s lockdown will result in New Zealand suffering one of the biggest declines in economic activity in the world

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-opinion/opinion-dangerous-political-vacuum-forming?fbclid=IwAR1BD6QPM2e8pbOxGlM1aPEpJhBXwrsyT eqVIdqvRMDAUSdSdome_HnP_5A

[Vagabond47]

Ah yes, of course ignoring that the effect on NZ is greater because we have a great reliance on tourism than most other OECD countries (not the world, lets be accurate here), and the OECD report doesn't take into account the effects of the stimulus package. Wouldn't matter who was in govt, or whether we closed our borders or not, even if our borders weren't closed, pretty much everybody else's are, tourism is stone cold dead, globally.

Meanwhile look at our covid death rate compared to Ireland, a country with similar population. They have almost as meany dead as we've had cases, oh and they've extended their lockdown another 3 weeks.. that makes it 5 weeks. Perhaps you'd like to look to the USA, where they didn't lockdown soon enough.. but they did mostly lockdown in the end.. (like pretty much everybody else has eventually), so they have refrigerated trucks holding the overflow from the morgues in cities and at rest homes nationwide. And the labour coalition f--ked it up you say? bwahaha.

PS: Sweden, which the coronavirus ignorant seem to love to trot out as model for success for not locking down.. the OECD report predicts a slightly greater GDP hit for them than NZ. And they've already got 2200 deaths in a population a fraction over twice our size.

I applaud the righties, for doing such a good job of staying in your bubbles.. pity the MOH & PM meant household/social bubbles.

[kiora]

It seems to me that , in hindsight,
That when the Level 4 was announced in NZ there was an extraordinary amount of unknown unknowns about COVID 19
What was known was there was an extraordinary amount of deaths in affected countries
That it was spreading at an alarming rate

And that in hindsight
Italy in particular has such a high rate of deaths because they continued to keep their businesses open
That for Level 4 to work relies on social distancing
That social distancing would only work if people's needs where supplied to them as much as possible otherwise they would need to work/try to find work
While the Govt handouts is likely to just delay the inevitable collapse of companies it has allowed Level 4 to do its work it eliminating Covid 19
Was the handouts to much?,not enough?,to broad?,not broad enough?

Whatever they where it allowed Level 4 to work

[kiora]

I hope this is not NZ and we are are moving away from this
"The trend towards centralised, authoritarian rule evident in countries such as India, Brazil and Turkey, and typified by China and Russia, has coincided with the rise of rightwing nationalist-populist governments and parties in Europe. Some are now following China’s lead in attempting to weaponise the virus for political ends."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/28/power-equality-nationalism-how-the-pandemic-will-reshape-the-world
And more
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12327765&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+28+ April+2020

[blackcap]

I hope this is not NZ and we are are moving away from this
"The trend towards centralised, authoritarian rule evident in countries such as India, Brazil and Turkey, and typified by China and Russia, has coincided with the rise of rightwing nationalist-populist governments and parties in Europe. Some are now following China’s lead in attempting to weaponise the virus for political ends."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/28/power-equality-nationalism-how-the-pandemic-will-reshape-the-world
And more
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12327765&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+28+ April+2020

Well it looks like we are already right in the middle of it with our glorious leader Jacinda and the apparachik telling us all what we can and cannot do. Questions being answered with a "no" and left at that. "only believe us and our handlers". Definitely centralised left wing authoritarian rule evident in NZ. Not good, quite worrying really.

[fungus pudding]

Well it looks like we are already right in the middle of it with our glorious leader Jacinda and the apparachik telling us all what we can and cannot do. Questions being answered with a "no" and left at that. "only believe us and our handlers". Definitely centralised left wing authoritarian rule evident in NZ. Not good, quite worrying really.

Thank your lucky bits that Muldoon is no longer around to share his wisdom among the us all.

[kiora]

WB thoughts sound interesting
“It means increasing the Earned Income Tax Credit, because I think that's a better system,” he added. “What they need is more money in their pocket. Now, you can do more money in the pocket through a minimum wage, but you don't have as many people working. You need something so they have money in their pocket.”
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-ideas-to-end-inequality-134650421.html

[blackcap]

Thank your lucky bits that Muldoon is no longer around to share his wisdom among the us all.

Well you have a point although I was a bit young to remember Muldoon. My interest in politics starts with Lange and Douglas. I have read a lot about Muldoon though. Seems a very interesting character.

[jonu]

*sigh*

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansD_20200325_20200325

Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The National Party stands to support this bill and the efforts of the Government to try and respond to this unprecedented challenge to our way of life and our health and our ability to earn a living and look after ourselves and our families.
[...]
Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Imprest Supply (Third for 2019/20) Bill in front of us today—as has been mentioned, $52 billion that the Government is, I guess, seeking from this House to ensure the work that the Minister of Finance and those supporting him have been doing to support New Zealand businesses, New Zealand's self-employed, New Zealand banks, New Zealand individuals, New Zealand homes, and New Zealand families while we deal with what we need to deal with to address COVID-19.
[...]
Hon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): I rise with the National Party supporting this legislation, and we do so knowing its importance but also the significant impact it will have on all New Zealanders for so very many years to come. The finance Minister in his intervention earlier said that this is about jobs—saving jobs—and about saving homes, and National agrees with him. Indeed, it's about giving certainty and surety to every single New Zealander and for them to know that this House stands beside them.
[..]
Hon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change): I rise to confirm the Green Party's support for this imprest supply bill.

[...]
Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House): Following discussions across the House, I seek leave for the introduction and passing through all stages of the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill and the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill, and that there be no debate on the first and second readings, and no committee stage of those bills.

SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that process being followed? There appears to be none.
1st and 2nd readings..
[..]Third Reading

Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I move, That the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill be now read a third time. [...]
[..]
Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you, Madam Speaker. National will be supporting this piece of legislation, the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill. Ordinarily, we wouldn't be wildly enthusiastic about rushing through legislation involving tax and social security changes. Ordinarily, you would want to spend many months having a select committee process and making sure that things have been done properly and we're not having unintended consequences, but we understand the need to move swiftly. This is part of the Government's COVID-19 response.
[..]
Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): Kia ora, Madam Speaker. So I rise on behalf of my colleague Fletcher Tabuteau to contribute on behalf of New Zealand First to the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill. New Zealand First will be supporting the bill.
[..]
Hon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): Madam Speaker, thank you. The National Party also supports this legislation, and we do so because it's important that we can move on and people can have certainty.

Yep, no mandate.. none at all. Clowns:p:p:p:p:p

Perhaps you don't understand the definition of mandate. Nobody in this country voted for this at the last election. Perhaps if you read Paul Goldsmith's last statement in your quoting of Hansard you may note his underlying concern which I and other posters are reiterating.

A little less arrogance and an abandoning of a sheeple approach would perhaps open your eyes.

[westerly]

With major questions arising over Jacinda Ardern’s judgement in adopting the elimination strategy and imposing one of the strictest lockdowns in the world, the lack of scrutiny of her decision-making is disturbing.

Treasury has quantified the devastating cost to the economy of the PM’s extremist approach. As a result of four weeks of lockdown, unemployment is expected to rise from four per cent to 13.5 per cent – increasing the number of unemployed from 111,000 to 371,000. It’s anticipated that a further $20 billion in Government support will be needed to cushion the blow – in addition to the $25 billion already spent fighting the virus.

According to the OECD, the prime minister’s lockdown will result in New Zealand suffering one of the biggest declines in economic activity in the world

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-opinion/opinion-dangerous-political-vacuum-forming?fbclid=IwAR1BD6QPM2e8pbOxGlM1aPEpJhBXwrsyT eqVIdqvRMDAUSdSdome_HnP_5A

About what you would expect from Newman. An opinion from the ACT survival of the fittest guide

westerly

[Balance]

About what you would expect from Newman. An opinion from the ACT survival of the fittest guide

westerly

But not a hypocrite, incompetent and/or self-serving Labourite MP & Minister like :

1. David Clark
2. Clare Curran
3. Phil Twyford
4. Iain Lees-Galloway
5. Deborah Russell

For starters!

[jonu]

About what you would expect from Newman. An opinion from the ACT survival of the fittest guide

westerly

Treasury and the OECD are working with ACT? Remove the blinkers westerly!

Apart from her rant on the RMA it seems an article based on International findings and NZ govt reports. I don't support ACT but she highlights many of my concerns...particularly the ongoing health costs and deaths we will see for the next 10 years.

[Vagabond47]

Perhaps you don't understand the definition of mandate. Nobody in this country voted for this at the last election. Perhaps if you read Paul Goldsmith's last statement in your quoting of Hansard you may note his underlying concern which I and other posters are reiterating.

A little less arrogance and an abandoning of a sheeple approach would perhaps open your eyes.

Jesus wept.. the last election was three years ago. Nobody had this on the radar, nobody could have asked for or given a mandate from the general public.
Luckily we have a representative democracy, we elect representatives to do the decision making for us on a day to day basis, particularly when time is of the essence and there isn't a chance for a long drawn out public debate and endless committees. And that is what they did.. the representatives elected by the people supported this action, thats the bloody mandate.

And you can take your sheeple comment and shove it right up your arse.

[jonu]

Jesus wept.. the last election was three years ago. Nobody had this on the radar, nobody could have asked for or given a mandate from the general public.
Luckily we have a representative democracy, we elect representatives to do the decision making for us on a day to day basis, particularly when time is of the essence and there isn't a chance for a long drawn out public debate and endless committees. And that is what they did.. the representatives elected by the people supported this action, thats the bloody mandate.

And you can take your sheeple comment and shove it right up your arse.

At present we are not functioning as a representative democracy. That is the point you are prepared to overlook in your sheeple mentality. Look, I extracted it from my behind and gave it back :D

[Vagabond47]

At present we are not functioning as a representative democracy. That is the point you are prepared to overlook in your sheeple mentality. Look, I extracted it from my behind and gave it back :D

First you complain there was no mandate for the spending and the new (temporary) restrictions on movement etc, then you deny it was a mandate after I provide the hansard of the legislation being supported by all the parties. You're a joke, i can't take you seriously, you're so busy spinning round in your own little bubble its ridiculous. And the ERC is back in session today, we still have opposition parties being represented, just in a streamlined way.

[westerly]

Treasury and the OECD are working with ACT? Remove the blinkers westerly!

Apart from her rant on the RMA it seems an article based on International findings and NZ govt reports. I don't support ACT but she highlights many of my concerns...particularly the ongoing health costs and deaths we will see for the next 10 years.

I should have described ACT as survival of the rich. As for the ongoing health costs and deaths, I have a bit more respect for the resilience of Kiwis. I sometimes wonder if the amazing increase in the support sector has been followed by the increase in mental health problems.?
westerly

[jonu]

The "spending" is a moveable feast that is largely being (so far) paid to Labour's voter base. The "temporary" restrictions on movement are likely to be eased once an app is available that can track your every movement. Our useless media's only question so far is "when will it be available?" not, will there be a built in expiry date....or what does this mean for our long term civil liberties?

The media lovefeast for Ardern and doting supporters are prepared to give up Civil Rights hard fought for over centuries without giving it a second thought.

[blackcap]

Our useless media's only question so far is "when will it be available?" not, will there be a built in expiry date....or what does this mean for our long term civil liberties?

.

The (MS) media are complicit in this. They would be quite happy with our civil liberties being taken off us. I too worry about this erosion of privacy. Something our forefathers died for to preserve.

[jonu]

The (MS) media are complicit in this. They would be quite happy with our civil liberties being taken off us. I too worry about this erosion of privacy. Something our forefathers died for to preserve.

Careful blackcap...we'll be accused of fraternising. They might even check our phones. Worse yet...you might elicit another sigh from Vagabond47. I wonder what will become of Vagabonds once their every movement is tracked?

[Vagabond47]

The "spending" is a moveable feast that is largely being (so far) paid to Labour's voter base. The "temporary" restrictions on movement are likely to be eased once an app is available that can track your every movement. Our useless media's only question so far is "when will it be available?" not, will there be a built in expiry date....or what does this mean for our long term civil liberties?

The media lovefeast for Ardern and doting supporters are prepared to give up Civil Rights hard fought for over centuries without giving it a second thought.

Guess you don't know how apps work. You install them.. and when you're done with them, you uninstall them. Its pretty simple really, most 12yos can manage it.

And the spending so far has mostly gone to businesses, $8.7 billion on wage subsidies, $6.2b on targeted business finance relief package, Essential workers leave subsidy scheme (paid to businesses). Compared to $3b on benefit increase and support?

The only moveable feast is for the flies feasting on the bull**** coming from you as usual.

Nobody is giving up civil rights, we're temporarily sacrificing exercising them to try not to kill off a chunk of our population and avoid the fate that has befallen the "land of the free".. overflowing morgues,dead people everywhere.

Reality really doesn't get a look in with you does it?

[jonu]

Guess you don't know how apps work. You install them.. and when you're done with them, you uninstall them. Its pretty simple really, most 12yos can manage it.

And the spending so far has mostly gone to businesses, $8.7 billion on wage subsidies, $6.2b on targeted business finance relief package, Essential workers leave subsidy scheme (paid to businesses). Compared to $3b on benefit increase and support?

The only moveable feast is for the flies feasting on the bull**** coming from you as usual.

Nobody is giving up civil rights, we're temporarily sacrificing exercising them to try not to kill off a chunk of our population and avoid the fate that has befallen the "land of the free".. overflowing morgues,dead people everywhere.

Reality really doesn't get a look in with you does it?

I understand Apps perfectly well thank you. You would uninstall it unless it became impossible to purchase something without having to scan your phone first.

As for the understanding the govt spend...the bulk of the billions is designed to end up in the pockets of employees...Labour's voter base. You know... the wage subsidy bit!!!

I find the more reality I expose the more abusive the response. You fit the pattern.

[Vagabond47]

I don't think you've seen reality in a long time.. Perhaps loosen the tinfoil hat a bit, it might help get the blood flow back to your brain.

[jonu]

I don't think you've seen reality in a long time.. Perhaps loosen the tinfoil hat a bit, it might help get the blood flow back to your brain.

Pattern confirmed. You abandon supporting your argument very quickly to just hurling insults and abuse. Tends to signal a capitulation in the strength of your original stance IMHO

[Vagabond47]

Pattern confirmed. You abandon supporting your argument very quickly to just hurling insults and abuse. Tends to signal a capitulation in the strength of your original stance IMHO

.
".the bulk of the billions is designed to end up in the pockets of employees...Labour's voter base ".

Really, all employees are labour voters? Then how the hell did national ever get into power, considering 80% of workers are employees? This is exactly what i mean by reality not intruding on your little bubble. I really can't be bothered engaging any further with someone that far off the planet. enjoy your afternoon of fighting against imagined boogie men named jacinda.

[Balance]

This is the very same David Clark who had time to go mountain biking and to his beach?

But he has no time to read a long awaited report on reforming the health system?

"...... it was wrong that everyone had to wait for Dr Clark, given the amount of effort and cost that had gone into the review".

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/public-has-interest-report

"Health Minister David Clark’s decision not to receive the long-awaited final report of the $9.5million Heather Simpson-led review of the health and disability system "anytime in the near future" means the public cannot see what it contains either. Dr Clark’s only explanation for the delay is that he does not want any resources diverted from the Covid-19 response."

[ynot]

With major questions arising over Jacinda Ardern’s judgement in adopting the elimination strategy and imposing one of the strictest lockdowns in the world, the lack of scrutiny of her decision-making is disturbing.

Treasury has quantified the devastating cost to the economy of the PM’s extremist approach. As a result of four weeks of lockdown, unemployment is expected to rise from four per cent to 13.5 per cent – increasing the number of unemployed from 111,000 to 371,000. It’s anticipated that a further $20 billion in Government support will be needed to cushion the blow – in addition to the $25 billion already spent fighting the virus.

According to the OECD, the prime minister’s lockdown will result in New Zealand suffering one of the biggest declines in economic activity in the world

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-opinion/opinion-dangerous-political-vacuum-forming?fbclid=IwAR1BD6QPM2e8pbOxGlM1aPEpJhBXwrsyT eqVIdqvRMDAUSdSdome_HnP_5A

Newman makes an interesting point. Should Simon have stood his ground and not agreed to dictatorship rule ?

[jonu]

This is the very same David Clark who had time to go mountain biking and to his beach?

But he has no time to read a long awaited report on reforming the health system?

"...... it was wrong that everyone had to wait for Dr Clark, given the amount of effort and cost that had gone into the review".

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/public-has-interest-report

"Health Minister David Clark’s decision not to receive the long-awaited final report of the $9.5million Heather Simpson-led review of the health and disability system "anytime in the near future" means the public cannot see what it contains either. Dr Clark’s only explanation for the delay is that he does not want any resources diverted from the Covid-19 response."

The most open and transparent government ever....according to Cindy that is. Clark didn't get the memo apparently. Or maybe Cindy and Clark both know what's in the report. Oh gee...forgot to remove my tinhat for Vagabond47's peace of mind.

[fungus pudding]

The (MS) media are complicit in this. They would be quite happy with our civil liberties being taken off us. I too worry about this erosion of privacy. Something our forefathers died for to preserve.

No they didn't. That's a phrase often squawked by parrots, but it's nonsense.