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jonu
28-04-2020, 11:05 AM
No they didn't. That's a phrase often squawked by parrots, but it's nonsense.

Do you think the Nazis or the Japanese wouldn't have done away with our civil liberties?

Balance
28-04-2020, 11:32 AM
Telling it as it is - Cindy & her bunch of incompetents have no idea whatsoever about business, and it shows.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12327901

One of the owners of Glenfield mall in Auckland, Dallas Pendergrast, said they had 115 tenants and they'd halved their rents during the lockdown.

And they would be doing that again next month but there was uncertainty about how long that could continue.

The Government had totally ignored SMEs, she said.

Pendergrast called Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's public thanks to SMEs "an insult" because the Government had "no idea" about small businesses.

"They don't want a thank you, they want to get back to work.

"In the meantime they want Government help."

Compassion didn't pay the bills, she said.

blackcap
28-04-2020, 12:33 PM
Do you think the Nazis or the Japanese wouldn't have done away with our civil liberties?

If it were not for the Americans and our armies fighting, we would be speaking a version of Nip right now in NZ. Or if not speaking it, it would be the official language and we non Japs would be slaves to the Emporer. Pretty sure our civil liberties would be gone.
As for Europe, well we all know what happened between 1940 and 1944 under Nazi rule. Civil liberties totally gone and Jews and other non humans exterminated. Yeah nah, don't buy it as myth.

Balance
28-04-2020, 06:15 PM
The most open and transparent government ever....according to Cindy that is. Clark didn't get the memo apparently. Or maybe Cindy and Clark both know what's in the report. Oh gee...forgot to remove my tinhat for Vagabond47's peace of mind.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12328085

Very same David Clark who does not have time to read the Healthcare Report but strike #3, he has time to move house!

stoploss
28-04-2020, 06:28 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12328085

Very same David Clark who does not have time to read the Healthcare Report but strike #3, he has time to move house!
Talking of Japanese On this thread , wonder if Labour Govt adopting the same approach with job for life .... It’s like a downgrade from a company there is always another to come . Jacinda should have sacked him first offence . All she has done is leave him on a whooping ministers salary to let Ashley do his job for the last month .

nztx
28-04-2020, 10:22 PM
Talking of Japanese On this thread , wonder if Labour Govt adopting the same approach with job for life .... It’s like a downgrade from a company there is always another to come . Jacinda should have sacked him first offence . All she has done is leave him on a whooping ministers salary to let Ashley do his job for the last month .


There is very good point on exactly why CLARK & his Ministry Of Health did not pick up the Virus Trend in countries very close to China in early days & pick up / research why the likes of Taiwan had so Low Death & Infection rates for their population & why that was occurring..

It was really only very Simple Analysis that was needed - ie: Which Countries should be on the Chart but are NOT ; or are not following the general expected trend ? Even a child could work out what was missing on a chart!

Is this sort of trend analysis too much to ask of presumed intelligent High Level Health Professionals & Spinning Political Numpties to exercise just a little commonsense & use the things parked on their shoulders to look just a little outside the box ?

Taiwan should have come up instantly & given them idea of exactly what was needed to deal with & contain things at an early time.

Taiwan are experienced in dealing with Pandemic type events from past - and were turning away Cruise Ships / preparing from January 2020

The First & Most important First Warning Govt & Ministry of Health had was the Mercy Flight of Passengers off the Cruise Ship up not far from Taiwan - in receipt of this they dithered and dreamed on looking only at what was immediately infront of their Noses with Whangaparaoa Quarantine ignoring the picture outside the box, but not by far.

Govt's own lack of action & Tardiness in looking at the valid correct pointers, with effective action needed in time at that time effectively resulted in their orchestrating an even larger (& unnecessary) Crisis on the whole country.

The Labour Government & Ministry of Health have a very lot to answer for to all Kiwi's for the apparently slow, ineffective & incompetent dealing with the Covid-19 Pandemic from outset and both Govt & MOH could have done very considerably better

iceman
29-04-2020, 03:18 AM
This would change things wouldn't it ? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-28/virus-is-here-to-stay-and-likely-seasonal-say-china-scientists

westerly
29-04-2020, 08:16 AM
T Tardiness in looking at the valid correct pointers, with effective action needed in time at that time effectively resulted in their orchestrating an even larger (& unnecessary) Crisis on the whole country.

The Labour Government & Ministry of Health have a very lot to answer for to all Kiwi's for the apparently slow, ineffective & incompetent dealing with the Covid-19 Pandemic from outset and both Govt & MOH could have done very considerably better

You are in the minority there https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12324302

westerly

Balance
29-04-2020, 08:30 AM
You are in the minority there https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12324302

westerly

Try harder, westerly - article dated 12 April, over 2 weeks ago.

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 08:40 AM
You are away with the fairies. In a situation like this, or any other emergency/crisis situation, of course the government must tell us “what to do.” Did you complain when you were told not to go into the city after the Christchurch earthquakes? Did you complain when you were told to stay away from the mosque after the terror attack? Would you complain if you heard a tsunami siren telling you to stay away from the coast? For Pete’s sake - the government has a role to play in any crisis situation and you and I, as citizens do as we are told.

It is as if you you have set yourself an “every minute of every day” mission to somehow convince NZ that Jacinda is the Devil. You have blinders on buddy.


Well it looks like we are already right in the middle of it with our glorious leader Jacinda and the apparachik telling us all what we can and cannot do. Questions being answered with a "no" and left at that. "only believe us and our handlers". Definitely centralised left wing authoritarian rule evident in NZ. Not good, quite worrying really.

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 08:44 AM
If that poll was taken again now, I suspect the result would be the same. I completed an online survey on the subject just this week, so no doubt the results of that will be out soon.


Try harder, westerly - article dated 12 April, over 2 weeks ago.

jonu
29-04-2020, 08:49 AM
You are away with the fairies. In a situation like this, or any other emergency/crisis situation, of course the government must tell us “what to do.” Did you complain when you were told not to go into the city after the Christchurch earthquakes? Did you complain when you were told to stay away from the mosque after the terror attack? Would you complain if you heard a tsunami siren telling you to stay away from the coast? For Pete’s sake - the government has a role to play in any crisis situation and you and I, as citizens do as we are told.

It is as if you you have set yourself an “every minute of every day” mission to somehow convince NZ that Jacinda is the Devil. You have blinders on buddy.

The examples you give present clear and immediate visible threats. This virus is very unclear. Certainly a threat, but what action is needed and to what degree do we clamp the economy to deal with it? This is very unclear. The downside (health and economic) is yet to be felt, but will be for likely minimum 10 years. The threat to our civil liberties is extreme with no guarantee we will return to the previous status quo.

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 09:09 AM
The fact that literally nothing is clear about this virus yet, is all the more reason for the government to take an extreme stance. We are slowly building a picture of this virus, but the reality is, it will be months, if not years, before we know exactly how it operates and how/if, it can be successfully treated or vaccinated against. It is a pandemic. That’s a fact. How can you possibly expect any government to automatically know how to deal with it? Our government has taken their responsibility seriously. They have made a decision to err on the side of caution and it has paid off. The cynics amongst you of course, will claim that we would have ended up where we are now without such stringent measures. But that is BS. None of you know that. Nobody does. You can compare us with other countries as much as you like to back your argument, but there are way too many variables for that argument to hold any water. Climate/weather, pollution, population density, standard of living, food/nutrition/diet, water quality, health/exercise and all other aspects of life in any particular country, may all influence the way this virus behaves or effects the population. Nobody has a rule book. Nobody has a crystal ball. Not you, not me, not even the medical researchers/scientists. At some point down the track, they might. But until then, I for one am very satisfied with the way our government has managed this, for us. There is literally no place I would rather be living right now. And no, there are no guarantees that life will ever return to normal. There are no guarantees in life. There never have been and there never will be. It will be what it will be.


The examples you give present clear and immediate visible threats. This virus is very unclear. Certainly a threat, but what action is needed and to what degree do we clamp the economy to deal with it? This is very unclear. The downside (health and economic) is yet to be felt, but will be for likely minimum 10 years. The threat to our civil liberties is extreme with no guarantee we will return to the previous status quo.

jonu
29-04-2020, 09:17 AM
The fact that literally nothing is clear about this virus yet, is all the more reason for the government to take an extreme stance. We are slowly building a picture of this virus, but the reality is, it will be months, if not years, before we know exactly how it operates and how/if, it can be successfully treated or vaccinated against. It is a pandemic. That’s a fact. How can you possibly expect any government to automatically know how to deal with it? Our government has taken their responsibility seriously. They have made a decision to err on the side of caution and it has paid off. The cynics amongst you of course, will claim that we would have ended up where we are now without such stringent measures. But that is BS. None of you know that. Nobody does. You can compare us with other countries as much as you like to back your argument, but there are way too many variables for that argument to hold any water. Climate/weather, pollution, population density, standard of living, food/nutrition/diet, water quality, health/exercise and all other aspects of life in any particular country, may all influence the way this virus behaves or effects the population. Nobody has a rule book. Nobody has a crystal ball. Not you, not me, not even the medical researchers/scientists. At some point down the track, they might. But until then, I for one am very satisfied with the way our government has managed this, for us. There is literally no place I would rather be living right now. And no, there are no guarantees that life will ever return to normal. There are no guarantees in life. There never have been and there never will be. It will be what it will be.

It will be what Cindy decrees it to be.

That is where we differ.

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 09:31 AM
Jacinda does not govern alone.


It will be what Cindy decrees it to be.

That is where we differ.

jonu
29-04-2020, 09:33 AM
Jacinda does not govern alone.

True.

It will be what Cindy and Grant decree it to be.

Joshuatree
29-04-2020, 09:35 AM
The fact that literally nothing is clear about this virus yet, is all the more reason for the government to take an extreme stance. We are slowly building a picture of this virus, but the reality is, it will be months, if not years, before we know exactly how it operates and how/if, it can be successfully treated or vaccinated against. It is a pandemic. That’s a fact.

How can you possibly expect any government to automatically know how to deal with it? Our government has taken their responsibility seriously. They have made a decision to err on the side of caution and it has paid off. The cynics amongst you of course, will claim that we would have ended up where we are now without such stringent measures. But that is BS. None of you know that. Nobody does. You can compare us with other countries as much as you like to back your argument, but there are way too many variables for that argument to hold any water. Climate/weather, pollution, population density, standard of living, food/nutrition/diet, water quality, health/exercise and all other aspects of life in any particular country, may all influence the way this virus behaves or effects the population.

Nobody has a rule book. Nobody has a crystal ball. Not you, not me, not even the medical researchers/scientists. At some point down the track, they might. But until then, I for one am very satisfied with the way our government has managed this, for us. There is literally no place I would rather be living right now. And no, there are no guarantees that life will ever return to normal. There are no guarantees in life. There never have been and there never will be. It will be what it will be.

Hear hear, we are in a lucky place with a safe pair of hands with a great team of advisors around her. Prob i have is with the dimwits who place an unhealthy fatty fast meal above their country and the people around them. Queueing close together (see bulls post) is the way to undo all the good that has been done.Looks like they will have to close these fast-food outlets again.

blackcap
29-04-2020, 09:37 AM
Our government has taken their responsibility seriously. They have made a decision to err on the side of caution and it has paid off. .
]

That is where we disagree. I do not think they have erred on the side of caution at all. By going for such a hard lock down they have caused thousands of kiwi's to lose their jobs, people missing surgeries, people becoming poorer with adverse health outcomes, quite possible a lower life expectancy to come with lower quality of life. People in despair, people missing out on contacts that are so important for mental health as well as other health. This government have gone for the high risk approach to eliminate or eradicate, or whatever the flavor of the day seems to be, a virus that quite likely will be with us regardless.

fungus pudding
29-04-2020, 09:39 AM
The fact that literally nothing is clear about this virus yet, is all the more reason for the government to take an extreme stance. We are slowly building a picture of this virus, but the reality is, it will be months, if not years, before we know exactly how it operates and how/if, it can be successfully treated or vaccinated against. It is a pandemic. That’s a fact. How can you possibly expect any government to automatically know how to deal with it? Our government has taken their responsibility seriously. They have made a decision to err on the side of caution and it has paid off.

You weren't doing too bad until you claimed the decision they made has paid off. We don't know that, and won't till the next decade or two has passed by and we can analyse suicide stats. heart attack, strokes, domestic violence killings and all that happy stuff. We might find that instead of a pay-off, there has been a cost. So far Sweden has 233 deaths per million as opposed to our 4, but their braniacs seem to think their approach will win long term.

Balance
29-04-2020, 09:47 AM
You weren't doing too bad until you claimed the decision they made has paid off. We don't know that, and won't till the next decade or two has passed by and we can analyse suicide stats. heart attack, strokes, domestic violence killings and all that happy stuff. We might find that instead of a pay-off, there has been a cost. So far Sweden has 233 deaths per million as opposed to our 4, but their braniacs seem to think their approach will win long term.

Precisely the point - this government is shamelessly using the virus crisis to score political advantage rather than transparently keeping NZers up to date with the full picture.

For a government which has no hesitation spending taxpayers' funds to commission all manner of studies and scenarios, where is the study to assess how many suicides, premature deaths, sickness and health problems are going to occur because of this 'strictest' lockdown in the world?

We know simplistically that :

Unemployment -> Depression -> Health & Social Problems -> Deaths

What's the trade-off?

Joshuatree
29-04-2020, 09:58 AM
Shamelessly giving us a chance to eliminate covid and get back to some form of normal but after seeing lines of braindead people queueing close together at fast food centres in some sort of risk on justification beggars belief.

jonu
29-04-2020, 10:00 AM
Shamelessly giving us a chance to eliminate covid and get back to some form of normal but after seeing lines of braindead people queueing close together at fast food centres in some sort of risk on justification beggars belief.

Would you care to write something that makes sense JT...or have you been in the fastfood queue as well?

macduffy
29-04-2020, 10:24 AM
The fact that literally nothing is clear about this virus yet, is all the more reason for the government to take an extreme stance. We are slowly building a picture of this virus, but the reality is, it will be months, if not years, before we know exactly how it operates and how/if, it can be successfully treated or vaccinated against. It is a pandemic. That’s a fact. How can you possibly expect any government to automatically know how to deal with it? Our government has taken their responsibility seriously. They have made a decision to err on the side of caution and it has paid off. The cynics amongst you of course, will claim that we would have ended up where we are now without such stringent measures. But that is BS. None of you know that. Nobody does. You can compare us with other countries as much as you like to back your argument, but there are way too many variables for that argument to hold any water. Climate/weather, pollution, population density, standard of living, food/nutrition/diet, water quality, health/exercise and all other aspects of life in any particular country, may all influence the way this virus behaves or effects the population. Nobody has a rule book. Nobody has a crystal ball. Not you, not me, not even the medical researchers/scientists. At some point down the track, they might. But until then, I for one am very satisfied with the way our government has managed this, for us. There is literally no place I would rather be living right now. And no, there are no guarantees that life will ever return to normal. There are no guarantees in life. There never have been and there never will be. It will be what it will be.

Thanks for bringing some sense to this thread, justakiwi!

:)

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 10:27 AM
I disagree. Yes, there have been inconveniences and yes, there has been an effect on businesses and the economy. But it has been for a very short period of time in the grand scheme of things. In two weeks we will probably be down to Level 2, which will be pretty close to “normal” life again. I can’t speak for public surgeries, but elective surgery has resumed at at least one private hospital - my daughter is back in theatre this week. Everything at her hospital is now back to normal. All of us have missed out on contact with loved ones but we will pick up where we left off. We should be grateful for the technology we have at our disposal as it has allowed us to keep in touch with our families and friends. Our rest home residents have enjoyed catching up with family/friends via Zoom, phone calls and video links via Messenger on their phones etc. They have even been able to see and talk (yell!) to visitors outside the building from a “safe” area set up with barriers to ensure a safe physical distance between people. And guess what? None of them are complaining. Not about the lockdown. Not about being isolated. Not about being restricted. Not about the government. Because most of them have lived through tough times in the past and they understand that these restrictions are to protect us all. Yes, no doubt people dealing with mental health issues, may well be struggling right now, but my guess is they would prefer that for a short time, than they would a stay in the covoid19 ward.

Nothing in life is perfect. It just isn’t. Yet you and others seem to think perfection exists. If you are so disappointed with the way NZ has handled this, maybe you should go live in Trumpland. Then you would have something real to complain about.


]

That is where we disagree. I do not think they have erred on the side of caution at all. By going for such a hard lock down they have caused thousands of kiwi's to lose their jobs, people missing surgeries, people becoming poorer with adverse health outcomes, quite possible a lower life expectancy to come with lower quality of life. People in despair, people missing out on contacts that are so important for mental health as well as other health. This government have gone for the high risk approach to eliminate or eradicate, or whatever the flavor of the day seems to be, a virus that quite likely will be with us regardless.

Balance
29-04-2020, 10:32 AM
Shamelessly giving us a chance to eliminate covid and get back to some form of normal but after seeing lines of braindead people queueing close together at fast food centres in some sort of risk on justification beggars belief.

It is about enforcement and it’s been kid’s glove stiff over here vs Australia.

Proof? David ‘My Values are Labour’s Values’ Clark.

jonu
29-04-2020, 10:35 AM
I disagree. Yes, there have been inconveniences and yes, there has been an effect on businesses and the economy. But it has been for a very short period of time in the grand scheme of things. In two weeks we will probably be down to Level 2, which will be pretty close to “normal” life again. I can’t speak for public surgeries, but elective surgery has resumed at at least one private hospital - my daughter is back in theatre this week. Everything at her hospital is now back to normal. All of us have missed out on contact with loved ones but we will pick up where we left off. We should be grateful for the technology we have at our disposal as it has allowed us to keep in touch with our families and friends. Our rest home residents have enjoyed catching up with family/friends via Zoom, phone calls and video links via Messenger on their phones etc. They have even been able to see and talk (yell!) to visitors outside the building from a “safe” area set up with barriers to ensure a safe physical distance between people. Yes, no doubt people dealing with mental health issues, may well be struggling right now, but my guess is they would prefer that for a short time, than they would a stay in the covoid19 ward.

Nothing in life is perfect. It just isn’t. Yet you and others seem to think perfection exists. If you are so disappointed with the way NZ has handled this, maybe you should go live in Trumpland. Then you would have something real to complain about.

Telling someone to go live somewhere else when their own place has been turned on its head without their consent is a little extreme...I think anyway.

The one word of your post in BOLD is important.

The REAL consequences will be seen in the dole queue, the insolvencies, the mortgagee sales, the drug use, the health statistics, the suicides.

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 10:43 AM
That is one seriously huge generalisation, which you are using as propaganda to serve your own agenda. The government has always supported the unemployed and that will not change. Yes, no doubt some people who find themselves unemployed now, will experience depression and/or anxiety. That is a normal reaction to a sudden change in one’s circumstances. Those with current mental health issues may find those are compounded right now, but they will be supported. The vast majority of people who now find themselves unemployed will not fall into a pit of depression and will not contemplate or commit suicide. With support from the government, social assistance, support from NGO and charitable agencies, support from family and friends - they will get through it. Maybe you could channel your anger into helping someone in that situation in some way? Volunteer to make daily calls to people, to mentor them in something you have skills in. Donate some of your investment income to agencies supporting people. Do something meaningful and proactive to help somebody else. One thing I can tell you for sure - you will get more joy, more satisfaction and more happiness out of focusing on others, than you will ever get from trying to win your arguments here. It is so easy to sit at home ranting and raving, day after day. All that has done is make you bitter. It is also not good for your health. None of your protestations have achieved anything. Nothing. Neither have mine, but at least I get out every day and focus on serving other human beings. Which is far, far more beneficial.



Unemployment -> Depression -> Health & Social Problems -> Deaths

jonu
29-04-2020, 10:49 AM
That is one seriously huge generalisation, which you are using as propaganda to serve your own agenda. The government has always supported the unemployed and that will not change. Yes, no doubt some people who find themselves unemployed now, will experience depression and/or anxiety. That is a normal reaction to a sudden change in one’s circumstances. Those with current mental health issues may find those are compounded right now, but they will be supported. The vast majority of people who now find themselves unemployed will not fall into a pit of depression and will not contemplate or commit suicide. With support from the government, social assistance, support from NGO and charitable agencies, support from family and friends - they will get through it. Maybe you could channel your anger into helping someone in that situation in some way? Volunteer to make daily calls to people, to mentor them in something you have skills in. Donate some of your investment income to agencies supporting people. Do something meaningful and proactive to help somebody else. One thing I can tell you for sure - you will get more joy, more satisfaction and more happiness out of focusing on others, than you will ever get from trying to win your arguments here. It is so easy to sit at home ranting and raving, day after day. All that has done is make you bitter. It is also not good for your health. None of your protestations have achieved anything. Nothing. Neither have mine, but at least I get out every day and focus on serving other human beings. Which is far, far more beneficial.

So....you're right...he's wrong, and he should just shut up and suck it up and start to help clean up the mess. How convenient.

blackcap
29-04-2020, 10:52 AM
. None of your protestations have achieved anything. Nothing. Neither have mine, but at least I get out every day and focus on serving other human beings. Which is far, far more beneficial.

There has been some research done on this topic. For every 1% increase in unemployment costs about 500 lives in a NZ context if we extrapolate the data from the US (pop 330m, NZ pop 5m). So yes increase in unemployment has a huge cost and that is forgetting the flow on effects to the rest of society as well...

You seem rather naive or arrogant as well. You "protest" on here and say that you at least get out every day etc etc. How do you know that Jonu, or anyone else for that matter does not do exactly the same? (btw your work does not count because you do that for remuneration) I am talking about the extra things we do to help others. You cannot judge someone by the arguments they posit on a share trading site.

Balance
29-04-2020, 10:55 AM
So....you're right...he's wrong, and he should just shut up and suck it up and start to help clean up the mess. How convenient.

Justakiwi means well but I sincerely believe she is so besotted with Cindy she cannot accept Saint Cindy can do any wrong.

Question left unanswered - What is the flow in effect of the ‘strictest lockdown in the world’ on incremental unemployment & the effects in social & health problems?

Will only require another $5m from this government’s unlimited budgets for studies & reports into all manner of things.

But don’t expect this government to commission such a report - because it will show this lockdown on the negative side.

Sad.

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 11:29 AM
Thanks for clarifying that.




You seem rather naive or arrogant as well. You "protest" on here and say that you at least get out every day etc etc. How do you know that Jonu, or anyone else for that matter does not do exactly the same? (btw your work does not count because you do that for remuneration) I am talking about the extra things we do to help others. You cannot judge someone by the arguments they posit on a share trading site.

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 11:32 AM
Well, at least you got one thing right. I’m not just being an arrogant, disrespectful prick for the sake of it. I feel sorry for you.


Justakiwi means well but I sincerely believe she is so besotted with Cindy she cannot accept Saint Cindy can do any wrong.

Question left unanswered - What is the flow in effect of the ‘strictest lockdown in the world’ on incremental unemployment & the effects in social & health problems?

Will only require another $5m from this government’s unlimited budgets for studies & reports into all manner of things.

But don’t expect this government to commission such a report - because it will show this lockdown on the negative side.

Sad.

Balance
29-04-2020, 12:04 PM
Well, at least you got one thing right. I’m not just being an arrogant, disrespectful prick for the sake of it. I feel sorry for you.

Don’t feel sorry for me, justakiwi although I appreciate your sentiment.

You should feel sorry though for the tens of thousands of NZers needlessly thrown out of their jobs because of the ‘strictest lockdown’ in the world.

Their sufferings are going to be profound and there will be social & health problems for years to come.

So sorry you live in a different planet from those of us who have had to console NZers who were made redundant & jobless in the past.

It is soul destroying and it beggars belief that this government is not commissioning a report to quantify how many additional jobless and corresponding deaths this ‘strictest lockdown’ in the world has caused. Why?

justakiwi
29-04-2020, 12:22 PM
I accept your point of view even though I disagree with it. What I struggle with however, is the way you present your arguments and your constant “ramping up” of pretty much everything. It’s as if you never stop to take a breath.

Either way, you are not good for my emotional or mental well-being, so once again, I am out. The sun is shining, birds are singing, and life is too precious to waste it in pointless debates. Enjoy the rest of your day.


Don’t feel sorry for me, justakiwi although I appreciate your sentiment.

You should feel sorry though for the tens of thousands of NZers needlessly thrown out of their jobs because of the ‘strictest lockdown’ in the world.

Their sufferings are going to be profound and there will be social & health problems for years to come.

So sorry you live in a different planet from those of us who have had to console NZers who were made redundant & jobless in the past.

It is soul destroying and it beggars belief that this government is not commissioning a report to quantify how many additional jobless and corresponding deaths this ‘strictest lockdown’ in the world has caused. Why?

Balance
29-04-2020, 12:36 PM
Covid-19 briefing today :

In response to a question of the possibility of the wealth gap widening because of the virus, Cindy undertakes to make sure that the gap will be addressed in the budget and in the years ahead.

Well, Cindy is already doing an outstanding job of creating more unemployment that necessary through the ‘strictest lockdown’ in the world, and balancing that increase in social welfare beneficiaries via impoverishing Mom & Dad through zero direct help for their businesses. Clever, huh?

Watch out for a whole raft of wealth tax in the budget. Sock it to the ‘rich’ so everybody becomes poor and closed the wealth gap.

Be afraid, be very very vigilant of the socialist agenda of this economically incompetent government.

westerly
29-04-2020, 12:45 PM
I accept your point of view even though I disagree with it. What I struggle with however, is the way you present your arguments and your constant “ramping up” of pretty much everything. It’s as if you never stop to take a breath.

Either way, you are not good for my emotional or mental well-being, so once again, I am out. The sun is shining, birds are singing, and life is too precious to waste it in pointless debates. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Don't take them too seriously justakiwi, it is all politically motivated frustration that their side missed out at the last election or just stirring the pot.

westerly

jonu
29-04-2020, 12:48 PM
Don't take them too seriously justakiwi, it is all politically motivated frustration that their side missed out at the last election or just stirring the pot.

westerly

I think a wee bit has changed since the last election.

Balance
29-04-2020, 01:19 PM
I think a wee bit has changed since the last election.

As in plenty of promises made, broken and hidden:

Kiwibuild
CGT
Child poverty
Police numbers
Transparency
Accountability
Highest level of performance - Clare Curran, Phil Twyford, Iain Lees-Galloway, David Clark

And now, using the virus crisis to close the gap between so-called haves & have nots by increasing numbers of Have-Nots.

Bravo, westerly!

Joshuatree
29-04-2020, 01:45 PM
Don't take them too seriously justakiwi, it is all politically motivated frustration that their side missed out at the last election or just stirring the pot.

westerly

Yep , always know better dont they, wannabe armchair hindsight heroes but sadly rather caste methinks.If they aren't benificary bashing,Govt knocking, strong woman hating,, trumpifying, making irrelevant noises, and misinformation, being trolls for national.

Its an incredible balancing act going on right now and this govt is doing remarkably well with results so far. Just look at other countries and see the overrun hospitals, the massive un employment, the looming food shortages etc etc. We so lucky here.

macduffy
29-04-2020, 01:59 PM
Just changing the direction slightly here, it seems to me that the govt, which I give full marks for its handling of the crisis so far, now runs the risk of being accused of milking the situation for their own benefit. Perhaps a daily news bulletin, rather than a full blown daily press conference will soon be appropriate?

dobby41
29-04-2020, 02:37 PM
Just changing the direction slightly here, it seems to me that the govt, which I give full marks for its handling of the crisis so far, now runs the risk of being accused of milking the situation for their own benefit. Perhaps a daily news bulletin, rather than a full blown daily press conference will soon be appropriate?

I thought that they had moved to that but seems that the daily brief goes on for now.
Maybe the press asked for it - handy access to ask questions.

jonu
29-04-2020, 02:40 PM
I thought that they had moved to that but seems that the daily brief goes on for now.
Maybe the press asked for it - handy access to ask questions.

Ardern signalled last weekend that she would appear less often.

Balance
30-04-2020, 06:25 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12328348

Professor Gorman :

NZ caught totally un-prepared for virus outbreak despite plenty of warnings from outbreak overseas.

Being an island nation, defence against outbreak must be at the border to stop those with the virus spreading it.

High trust model of self-isolation for the tens of thousands of travellers into NZ - naive in the extreme.

Should have used police and/or army (like in Taiwan) to make sure self-isolation strictly enforced. War against Covid-19 - necessary action.

Strictest lockdown ONLY option due to above.

Fortunate NZers took outbreak seriously - why lockdown works.

Economic costs are going to be horrendous. Unnecessary if tough and decisive action taken initially.

RTM
30-04-2020, 12:15 PM
Well....we have an opportunity later this year to get a new government....if that is what the collective “we” want.
It’s not so far away. Be interesting to see the outcome.

fungus pudding
30-04-2020, 02:07 PM
Well....we have an opportunity later this year to get a new government....if that is what the collective “we” want.
It’s not so far away. Be interesting to see the outcome.

It's what the collective 'we' want, as long as it's also what Winston wants.

Balance
01-05-2020, 10:03 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12328854

Labour at 55%, National under 30% in UMR polls.

Good stuff!

Will hasten departure of Simon. :t_up:

fungus pudding
01-05-2020, 10:10 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12328854

Labour at 55%, National under 30% in UMR polls.

Good stuff!

Will hasten departure of Simon. :t_up:

I think National will forego this next term and replace Bridges after the election. At least if those results play out it would bury Winston First.

dobby41
01-05-2020, 10:18 AM
At least if those results play out it would bury Winston First.

Something good, maybe, out of all of this.

iceman
01-05-2020, 07:05 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12328854

Labour at 55%, National under 30% in UMR polls.

Good stuff!

Will hasten departure of Simon. :t_up:

I would love to see the letter Nick Smith apparently sent to Simon and copied to the caucus, criticisng the COVID response. I hope it gets publisahed

Joshuatree
01-05-2020, 09:17 PM
I read today that Bridges has been withholding Nationals own internal polling from his MP's.
Todd Muller has to be a contender.

Raz
02-05-2020, 04:18 AM
Just shows these guys can't get their thinking outside their own bubble...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/121162776/heads-stuck-in-the-sand--fury-over-ministers-warning-not-to-offer-coronavirus-rates-relief

value_investor
02-05-2020, 11:08 AM
I don't think Bridges will survive after the election if they keep him in. I'm not sure either what good getting rid of him now would do either. Its kind of the same conundrum that Labour was in post Helen Clark. They had Goff and Shearer right after who were perhaps decent administrators but mostly there to keep it warm for someone to really take the bull by the horns.

At this point, they get rid of Bridges and its likely that Amy Adams or Judith Collins steps in. Not sure if that gets them in a better position than they are now. I think Adams keeps the party more moderate, while Judith Collins will see a departure further right. Either way, they are up against it.

There was talk of the former Air NZ CEO Christopher Luxon and that would be a real roll of the dice. It would depend on the public warms to him I think. A highly paid former CEO who is apart of the 1% could go either way depending on how he speaks and presents himself. It worked for Key, not sure how it does here.

Balance
02-05-2020, 11:35 AM
I don't think Bridges will survive after the election if they keep him in. I'm not sure either what good getting rid of him now would do either. Its kind of the same conundrum that Labour was in post Helen Clark. They had Goff and Shearer right after who were perhaps decent administrators but mostly there to keep it warm for someone to really take the bull by the horns.

At this point, they get rid of Bridges and its likely that Amy Adams or Judith Collins steps in. Not sure if that gets them in a better position than they are now. I think Adams keeps the party more moderate, while Judith Collins will see a departure further right. Either way, they are up against it.

There was talk of the former Air NZ CEO Christopher Luxon and that would be a real roll of the dice. It would depend on the public warms to him I think. A highly paid former CEO who is apart of the 1% could go either way depending on how he speaks and presents himself. It worked for Key, not sure how it does here.

Somebody will emerge and then, obtain profile and shout up in the polls. That’s how politics work.

iceman
02-05-2020, 04:39 PM
.

At this point, they get rid of Bridges and its likely that Amy Adams or Judith Collins steps in. Not sure if that gets them in a better position than they are now. I think Adams keeps the party more moderate, while Judith Collins will see a departure further right. Either way, they are up against it.



Amy Adams announced months ago she's quitting politics at the end of this term !

nztx
03-05-2020, 12:56 AM
Well....we have an opportunity later this year to get a new government....if that is what the collective “we” want.
It’s not so far away. Be interesting to see the outcome.


Can it be deferred if C-19 is still swirling around Kiwiland later this year ?

nztx
03-05-2020, 12:59 AM
Just shows these guys can't get their thinking outside their own bubble...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/121162776/heads-stuck-in-the-sand--fury-over-ministers-warning-not-to-offer-coronavirus-rates-relief


Taken generally, this is also probably very true too -

"A prominent developer whose tenants have been hit hard by the coronavirus lockdown has accused ministers of being "divorced from reality"

Where does this usually land a Govt & such Ministers in good time ?

BlackPeter
03-05-2020, 10:30 AM
Amy Adams announced months ago she's quitting politics at the end of this term !

She did - but who knows whats going to happen, maybe she changes her stance if we nicely ask her?

I think with Amy Adams at the helm National would have a real chance, she would be able to find a center right majority. "Crusher" Judith on the other hand is only attractive to the hard right in this country and will never master a majority.

Put Judith at Nationals helm and I vote first time in my life for Labour.

nztx
03-05-2020, 12:07 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300002365/parliament-passes-the-wrong-law-in-an-afternoon-of-urgent-lawmaking

"Parliament passes the wrong law in an afternoon of urgent lawmaking"

"New Zealand's Parliament is famous for being able to pass laws quickly in a crisis.

But on Thursday it might have moved too quickly, after an error meant that the wrong piece of legislation was introduced to Parliament and then passed within hours, accidentally bringing into law a multi-billion dollar loan scheme.

The bill meant to "throw a lifeline" to small and medium businesses and was passed through all stages of the lawmaking process in an afternoon.

A bill like this would usually take six months to become law."

nztx
03-05-2020, 12:12 PM
and so the widening Spiral of Lay-offs & Redundancies starts to unfold ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121376866/workers-laid-off-at-invercargill-tourism-hotspot-transport-world

"The Transport World redundancies follow the Gore District Council this week saying it had issued redundancy notices to 17- part-time staff employed at the Gore Aquatic Centre and MLT Event Centre which were both currently closed in Alert Level 3.

Ngai Tahu said on April 23 it was considering laying off 300 workers which would more than halve Ngai Tahu Tourism's 500-strong workforce, such was the impact Covid-19 was having on tourism."

more at link

What would a loan solve for these Employers that a Govt C-19 "Make good on their Losses Grants" wouldn't ?

Zaphod
04-05-2020, 11:14 AM
The reality is that there is very little, in anything, the government can to stop many businesses from closing. They have been rendered unviable as a consequence of the pandemic & the associated response, even previously highly profitable ones.

Balance
04-05-2020, 02:44 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/121397294/where-is-our-tourism-minister-when-we-need-him-the-most

Good question - where is the tourism minister?

Balance
04-05-2020, 08:57 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12329317

Employer used $70k wage subsidy for other than payments to staff.

Company has gone into receivership and so, it's tough luck for the employees and taxpayers.

Scary to think how much of the $100k loans to businesses are going to disappear down the proverbial black holes. And we are talking $20 billions to $25 billions at stake!

Amateurs at work in Cindy's government. :eek2:

blackcap
05-05-2020, 06:27 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12329317

Employer used $70k wage subsidy for other than payments to staff.

Company has gone into receivership and so, it's tough luck for the employees and taxpayers.

Scary to think how much of the $100k loans to businesses are going to disappear down the proverbial black holes. And we are talking $20 billions to $25 billions at stake!

Amateurs at work in Cindy's government. :eek2:

The loan system has me a bit worried. I think all the wrong companies that do not know how to handle debt are going to get these loans and use the money for all the wrong reason. Keystone cops and if Stuart Nash or whoever is behind this thinks that companies know what they are doing and will act responsibly then pull the other one.

fungus pudding
05-05-2020, 07:12 AM
The loan system has me a bit worried. I think all the wrong companies that do not know how to handle debt are going to get these loans and use the money for all the wrong reason. Keystone cops and if Stuart Nash or whoever is behind this thinks that companies know what they are doing and will act responsibly then pull the other one.

I seriously doubt that there are many companies that do not know how to handle debt.

(Which is not to say that there are no companies that will misuse it.)

dobby41
05-05-2020, 07:44 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12329317

Employer used $70k wage subsidy for other than payments to staff.

Company has gone into receivership and so, it's tough luck for the employees and taxpayers.

Scary to think how much of the $100k loans to businesses are going to disappear down the proverbial black holes. And we are talking $20 billions to $25 billions at stake!

Amateurs at work in Cindy's government. :eek2:

Tough to get the money out quickly and then hand hold all companies - would still be waiting for it to happen.
Better to work fast and accept some failure than have it grind to a halt.
Criticism whichever way it went was to be expected.

blackcap
05-05-2020, 08:02 AM
I seriously doubt that there are many companies that do not know how to handle debt.

(Which is not to say that there are no companies that will misuse it.)

Fair call, the ones I am thinking of are probably in the minority. But the temptation to take on more debt at 0 interest when you can not handle it must be palpable in this environment. I think there will be plenty of defaults. To be fair, having given it some thought, this is probably a better option than the helicopter money of the wage subsidy.

dobby41
05-05-2020, 08:20 AM
Bring Sir Roger back
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300004327/coronavirus-sir-roger-douglas-says-house-building-and-spending-cuts-key-to-fixing-covid19-shock
I like this line
"Douglas said it was an example of “the old maxim rendered true — there is never someone more socialist than a wealthy capitalist in a time of crisis”."

fungus pudding
05-05-2020, 09:13 AM
Bring Sir Roger back
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300004327/coronavirus-sir-roger-douglas-says-house-building-and-spending-cuts-key-to-fixing-covid19-shock
I like this line
"Douglas said it was an example of “the old maxim rendered true — there is never someone more socialist than a wealthy capitalist in a time of crisis”."

Roger Douglas - a politician who learned how to think. Unlike the vast majority who learn how to preach.

kiora
06-05-2020, 07:27 AM
Roger Douglas - a politician who learned how to think. Unlike the vast majority who learn how to preach.

Yes,step aside Robertson?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12329565&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+6 +May+2020

Zaphod
06-05-2020, 08:16 AM
Yes,step aside Robertson?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12329565&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+6 +May+2020

The Labour party of Roger Douglas's era wouldn't mesh well with the Labour party of Robertson's era.

dobby41
06-05-2020, 08:21 AM
The Labour party of Roger Douglas's era wouldn't mesh well with the Labour party of Robertson's era.

I'm not sure that is the case. Robertson is quite a pragmatist hence the quick and crude wage subsidy to dump money in quickly.
Fine tuning would have taken too long and snarled things up.

dobby41
06-05-2020, 08:21 AM
I'm not sure that is the case. Robertson is quite a pragmatist hence the quick and crude wage subsidy to dump money in quickly.
Fine tuning would have taken too long and snarled things up.

Doesn't mean that, on-going, it can't now be tuned and targetted.

Balance
06-05-2020, 08:57 AM
I'm not sure that is the case. Robertson is quite a pragmatist hence the quick and crude wage subsidy to dump money in quickly.
Fine tuning would have taken too long and snarled things up.

Agree with that and Roger Douglas should understand as he did the same with his radical moves to free up NZ (thank goodness) from the stifling regulations and rules after Labour took office in 1984.

But it is also time with the budget to be fine tuned and more targeted as you say, Dobby41.

Zaphod
06-05-2020, 09:17 AM
I'm not sure that is the case. Robertson is quite a pragmatist hence the quick and crude wage subsidy to dump money in quickly.
Fine tuning would have taken too long and snarled things up.

Disagree - Labour's economic modus operandi is much different now. Roger's previous approach to the economy is at odds with Roberston's.

Bjauck
06-05-2020, 09:47 AM
Roger Douglas - a politician who learned how to think. Unlike the vast majority who learn how to preach. Didn't Douglas just about give away Telecom to the Americans? Then when Telecom was held substantially by NZ shareholders it was regulated and vilified by the government of the day.

I would be interested to know how he would pay for his plan. If fewer larger businesses are supported, presumably we would end up with kore unemployment. He doesn't support a CGT but he likes income-testing super. So presumably oldies with income would pay for his plans. But those who can arrange capital gains would be OK?

Balance
06-05-2020, 10:00 AM
Didn't Douglas just about give away Telecom to the Americans? Then when Telecom was held substantially by NZ shareholders it was regulated and vilified by the government of the day.

Telecom was sold to the Fay Richwhite led Bell Atlantic/Ameritech/Tappenden consortium for a price which blew all the other bidders (including BIL & Fletcher Group) out the window.

They saw the huge potential of the mobile market at that time.

The regulations came in after Telecom squandered billions of dollars in Australia (AAPT for eg was a $3 billion disaster) and did not invest in upgrading its broadband infrastructure in NZ.

The removal & breakup of Telecom into Chorus & Spark came after Helen Clark went on a trip to Seoul . She was horrified and embarrassed that NZ was still on dial-up while South Korea was already on UFB.

dobby41
06-05-2020, 10:55 AM
The removal & breakup of Telecom into Chorus & Spark came after Helen Clark went on a trip to Seoul . She was horrified and embarrassed that NZ was still on dial-up while South Korea was already on UFB.

Spark and Chorus came about purely because a LFC (Local Fibre Company) couldn't do retail. Without the split Telecom couldn't participate.

nztx
06-05-2020, 07:22 PM
Bring Sir Roger back
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300004327/coronavirus-sir-roger-douglas-says-house-building-and-spending-cuts-key-to-fixing-covid19-shock
I like this line
"Douglas said it was an example of “the old maxim rendered true — there is never someone more socialist than a wealthy capitalist in a time of crisis”."

It can't be ... Labour's buddy whether they like or not

The same strategist whose ideas destroyed whole industries & buried large numbers of Employees jobs in the process..

Whether the current incompetent huddle manage to better the record achieved in the 1990's with Douglas onboard, could be interesting.. ;)

nztx
06-05-2020, 07:26 PM
Could this be one of those Large Offshore Corporate Sinners which Labour was busy bashing around the block not so long ago ? -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121422743/microsofts-significant-investment-shows-faith-in-nzs-digital-future

"Microsoft's "significant investment" shows faith in NZ's digital future"

Balance
06-05-2020, 07:47 PM
It can't be ... Labour's buddy whether they like or not

The same strategist whose ideas destroyed whole industries & buried large numbers of Employees jobs in the process..

Whether the current incompetent huddle manage to better the record achieved in the 1990's with Douglas onboard, could be interesting.. ;)

Disagree with you.

But for Roger Douglas, we would still be manufacturing and assembling sub-standard and second rate & shoddy cars, TVs, clothings, furniture etc at outrageous prices, begging banks for mortgages and still using dial up internet.

And unemployment today would be 15% as the rest of the world bypasses NZ.

fungus pudding
06-05-2020, 09:36 PM
Disagree with you.

But for Roger Douglas, we would still be manufacturing and assembling sub-standard and second rate & shoddy cars, TVs, clothings, furniture etc at outrageous prices, begging banks for mortgages and still using dial up internet.

And unemployment today would be 15% as the rest of the world bypasses NZ.

He brought NZ into the twentieth century. A courageous finance minister to whom we should be grateful.

Joshuatree
06-05-2020, 09:44 PM
Could this be one of those Large Offshore Corporate Sinners which Labour was busy bashing around the block not so long ago ? -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121422743/microsofts-significant-investment-shows-faith-in-nzs-digital-future

"Microsoft's "significant investment" shows faith in NZ's digital future"

Fantastic, lets hope its the beginning of a tidealwave of companies that now want to be here

"On Wednesday, the technology giant announced it planned to build a data centre in the North Island, adding to its 59 other data centres around the globe. It would be the first multinational cloud service to open one in New Zealand, with the investment likely worth tens of millions of dollars.Muller said it would accelerate technological solutions that required rapid processing power, such as artificial intelligence systems. "For example, this is ultimately the sort of processing power that will be needed to support a fleet of autonomous vehicles safely."stuff"

dobby41
07-05-2020, 07:07 AM
Could this be one of those Large Offshore Corporate Sinners which Labour was busy bashing around the block not so long ago ? -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121422743/microsofts-significant-investment-shows-faith-in-nzs-digital-future

"Microsoft's "significant investment" shows faith in NZ's digital future"

I don't think so.
That would be Google, Facebook and their ilk.

Joshuatree
07-05-2020, 07:47 AM
And Our PM instigated changes re these companies monitoring and removing unacceptable posting, streaming etc after ChCH and they responded,thanks to her.

dobby41
07-05-2020, 07:51 AM
And Our PM instigated changes re these companies monitoring and removing unacceptable posting, streaming etc after ChCH and they responded,thanks to her.

Now we just need them to pay appropriate taxes for the business they do in NZ.

Balance
07-05-2020, 09:40 AM
Putting NZ's covid-19 outbreak data in perspective :

Per 100,000 :

Deaths
Taiwan 0.03
Hong Kong 0.05
Australia 0.39
New Zealand 0.43
Japan 0.45
South Korea 0.50

Infected:
Taiwan 1.8
Hong Kong 13.9
Australia 27.2
New Zealand 30.5
Japan 12.3
South Korea 21.1

And we know that Taiwan, Hong Kong and Australia have not had to close down the economies to the extent that NZ has, to achieve BETTER results than NZ.

And it has nothing to do with whether it's National or Labour who is in power - it's about doing better than we have done.

What can we learn from them and do even better than we have.

Lets' raise our sight higher, shall we - rather than be forever comparing ourselves with the worse rather than the best.

fungus pudding
07-05-2020, 10:15 AM
Putting NZ's covid-19 outbreak data in perspective :

Deaths
Taiwan 0.03
Hong Kong 0.05
Australia 0.39
New Zealand 0.43
Japan 0.45
South Korea 0.50

Infected:
Taiwan 1.8
Hong Kong 13.9
Australia 27.2
New Zealand 30.5
Japan 12.3
South Korea 21.1

And we know that Taiwan, Hong Kong and Australia have not had to close down the economies to the extent that NZ has, to achieve BETTER results than NZ.

And it has nothing to do with whether it's National or Labour who is in power - it's about doing better than we have done.

What can we learn from them and do even better than we have.

Lets' raise our sight higher, shall we - rather than be forever comparing ourselves with the worse rather than the best.

Your figures make no sense. e.g NZ has had 4 deaths - not 0
.43 Australia has had 97 - not 0.39

Balance
07-05-2020, 10:19 AM
Your figures make no sense. e.g NZ has had 4 deaths - not 0
.43 Australia has had 97 - not 0.39

Thanks for pointing out - have corrected.

Should be per 100,000 of population.

iceman
07-05-2020, 07:20 PM
And Our PM instigated changes re these companies monitoring and removing unacceptable posting, streaming etc after ChCH and they responded,thanks to her.

I assume you have something to back up that statement !! The PM is very good at grabbing international headlines by making statements such as her and the Cabinet taking a huge pay cut. 3 weeks later she has not done anything about it, for which there is no excuse. Just another failed promise.

nztx
07-05-2020, 09:39 PM
Anyone see Kelvin Davis with Paul Henry on TV3 tonight fumbling away ?

Apparently he couldn't even put a number on the Kiwi Tourism / Hospitality jobs that he said he was going to save
or when this was going to occur .. ;)

Poor Kelvin never seems to disappoint with the dubious unique ability to freeze, get foot stuck in mouth or come up a major disconnect when challenged by some of the sharper more awake media interviewers applying heat on him .. ;)

Joshuatree
07-05-2020, 09:54 PM
I assume you have something to back up that statement !! The PM is very good at grabbing international headlines by making statements such as her and the Cabinet taking a huge pay cut. 3 weeks later she has not done anything about it, for which there is no excuse. Just another failed promise.

Youve forgotten the Ch Ch call? Wow.

nztx
07-05-2020, 10:14 PM
Youve forgotten the Ch Ch call? Wow.

The Govt's C-19 actions in turn compared to Christchurch & Guns Ban rapid 'shoot from the hip' however
bring to the fore - why was Govt's action to Covid-19 so sloppy & slow - out by about 4-6 weeks on
optimum timing which would have largely avoided what we have now & going forwards ?

Govt have proved in past that they can & have previously moved fast, so why not with Covid-19 ?

Joshuatree
07-05-2020, 10:34 PM
Natural born liar at work here. Our govt has been incredible through this crisis, that cannot be denied. You sound like a sloppy trumplike henchman pumping out the fake news, what blogg are you being paid to throw your poo from .Aways transparent your sort.Try looking at the bright side of life.

Iceman you cannot deny that facebook etc changed what they allow streamed etc since our PM instigated that meeting with other leaders. As for the Rifle ban , guess who is following our actions atm, Canada.

iceman
08-05-2020, 06:48 AM
Youve forgotten the Ch Ch call? Wow.

It was just another big headline grabbing idea that went nowhere, like most of the PMs ideas.

iceman
08-05-2020, 06:54 AM
Natural born liar at work here. Our govt has been incredible through this crisis, that cannot be denied. You sound like a sloppy trumplike henchman pumping out the fake news, what blogg are you being paid to throw your poo from .Aways transparent your sort.Try looking at the bright side of life.

Iceman you cannot deny that facebook etc changed what they allow streamed etc since our PM instigated that meeting with other leaders. As for the Rifle ban , guess who is following our actions atm, Canada.

The Auditor General spent 8 months on investigating the gun buy back scheme. He was unable to determine whether the scheme had made New Zealanders any safer, despite the $139 million spent on it. But good on the similarly minded and weak PM of Canada just to copy paste.

jonu
08-05-2020, 08:41 AM
The Auditor General spent 8 months on investigating the gun buy back scheme. He was unable to determine whether the scheme had made New Zealanders any safer, despite the $139 million spent on it. But good on the similarly minded and weak PM of Canada just to copy paste.

Trudeau and Ardern are birds of a feather. Virtue signalling and short on detail and policy. Hence pre-Covid all the cockups we had with delivery on Labour's election promises.

1. Light Rail

2. Capital Gains Tax - "Captain's Call"

3. Immigration

4. Kiwibuild

5. Cleaner Rivers

All main planks of Labour's election promises. None delivered on.

macduffy
08-05-2020, 08:55 AM
The Auditor General spent 8 months on investigating the gun buy back scheme. He was unable to determine whether the scheme had made New Zealanders any safer, despite the $139 million spent on it. But good on the similarly minded and weak PM of Canada just to copy paste.

Be that as it may, the NZ buyback followed the Australian Port Arthur massacre several years ago. The former has been widely acclaimed for making Aussie safer; NZ, likely to be so now, as well. Just tragic that it takes many deaths for countries to act to limit the use of firearms.

stoploss
08-05-2020, 09:46 AM
Trudeau and Ardern are birds of a feather. Virtue signalling and short on detail and policy. Hence pre-Covid all the cockups we had with delivery on Labour's election promises.

1. Light Rail

2. Capital Gains Tax - "Captain's Call"

3. Immigration

4. Kiwibuild

5. Cleaner Rivers

All main planks of Labour's election promises. None delivered on.

Pike river and 50 Mio + and counting should be on this list

Balance
08-05-2020, 09:53 AM
Be that as it may, the NZ buyback followed the Australian Port Arthur massacre several years ago. The former has been widely acclaimed for making Aussie safer; NZ, likely to be so now, as well. Just tragic that it takes many deaths for countries to act to limit the use of firearms.


Agreed 100% - gun control has to start somewhere rather than be put in the too-hard basket. Cindy and her government are to be commended totally for taking the bold step.

westerly
08-05-2020, 10:27 AM
The Govt's C-19 actions in turn compared to Christchurch & Guns Ban rapid 'shoot from the hip' however
bring to the fore - why was Govt's action to Covid-19 so sloppy & slow - out by about 4-6 weeks on
optimum timing which would have largely avoided what we have now & going forwards ?

Govt have proved in past that they can & have previously moved fast, so why not with Covid-19 ?

Get off your soapbox. National would have done less and talked about reducing taxes and ACT even less but still waffled on about reduced freedoms and lower taxes.

westerly

Balance
08-05-2020, 10:48 AM
Get off your soapbox. National would have done less and talked about reducing taxes and ACT even less but still waffled on about reduced freedoms and lower taxes.

westerly

Why does National have to come into every discussion?

Can we as taxpayers and citizens of NZ not hold this government (or any government) to account?

justakiwi
08-05-2020, 11:03 AM
Because those who are publicly anti-Labour/anti-Jacinda, frequently allude to the fact that they believe National would have done/would do so much better. Those people have very short memories. Hold the government to account by all means, but never forget the things National did not do well, and will do again should they be back in power in the future.


Why does National have to come into every discussion?

Can we as taxpayers and citizens of NZ not hold this government (or any government) to account?

Balance
08-05-2020, 11:29 AM
Because those who are publicly anti-Labour/anti-Jacinda, frequently allude to the fact that they believe National would have done/would do so much better. Those people have very short memories. Hold the government to account by all means, but never forget the things National did not do well, and will do again should they be back in power in the future.

Fair enough but I do not see that as relevant in situations where the government of the day has made bad decisions.

fungus pudding
08-05-2020, 11:38 AM
Why does National have to come into every discussion?

Can we as taxpayers and citizens of NZ not hold this government (or any government) to account?

Because there are so many Westerly types 'round these parts.

Balance
08-05-2020, 12:29 PM
Because those who are publicly anti-Labour/anti-Jacinda, frequently allude to the fact that they believe National would have done/would do so much better. Those people have very short memories. Hold the government to account by all means, but never forget the things National did not do well, and will do again should they be back in power in the future.

I have been a vocal critic of how this government has singularly failed in its housing policy - especially kiwibuild. The inexperienced and naive Phil Twyfool & his equally dumb advisors were taken to the cleaners by the developers.

So they changed the policy and it's now all housed under Kainga Ora.

Well, I have just examined a development project involving Kainga Ora and guess what? They are going to get taken to the cleaners by developers again! If we were in another country (say, 3rd world) I would venture to say that someone in the government is corrupted and getting back-handers!

And this is the problem with this government - stupid as stupid does. Too arrogant and too dumb at the same time to learn.

westerly
08-05-2020, 12:44 PM
Why does National have to come into every discussion?

Can we as taxpayers and citizens of NZ not hold this government (or any government) to account?

Because National is the alternative and quite a number of todays problems can be laid at the do nothing less tax policies of the previous administration.

westerly

Balance
08-05-2020, 01:08 PM
Because National is the alternative and quite a number of todays problems can be laid at the do nothing less tax policies of the previous administration.

westerly

The failure of this government to deliver on Kiwibuild, Capital Gains Tax and unlimited spending on Pike River - what has that got to do with National?

Labour was elected on its platform to deliver solutions - they had already laid the blame of everything that's wrong at National.

Now they must stand on fall on their own ability to deliver the solutions, surely!

justakiwi
08-05-2020, 01:44 PM
Name a party that has ever delivered everything they campaigned on/promised, or everything you wanted.

Didn’t think so.


The failure of this government to deliver on Kiwibuild, Capital Gains Tax and unlimited spending on Pike River - what has that got to do with National?

Labour was elected on its platform to deliver solutions - they had already laid the blame of everything that's wrong at National.

Now they must stand on fall on their own ability to deliver the solutions, surely!

Joshuatree
08-05-2020, 01:48 PM
Im all good with Pike.Closure for families and hopefully accountability.

Kiwibuild, im thankful they tried but it turned out to be an impossible task. Reset, change regs, red tape etc as is happening now.

Cap gains , thank winston. It may be back on the table in future with covid changing everything.

Immigration. Who has restricted Overseas people buying and selling our houses etc etc. Who you gonna call .

Cleaner rivers no easy quick fix,just ask the farmers on the canterbury plains farming intensively on 80 metres of gravel, who encouraged allowed that, yes the N word again yep national and nitrogen. Elsewhere is easier and is happening incrementally.

fungus pudding
08-05-2020, 01:52 PM
Name a party that has ever delivered everything they campaigned on/promised, or everything you wanted.



Two different things entirely. As far as delivering on promises - I don't think Muldoon, for all his weird ideas, ever failed to do what he promised. Pity.
Part two is silly - Even Santa can't satisfy that one.

jonu
08-05-2020, 02:00 PM
Im all good with Pike.Closure for families and hopefully accountability.

Kiwibuild, im thankful they tried but it turned out to be an impossible task. Reset, change regs, red tape etc as is happening now.

Cap gains , thank winston. It may be back on the table in future with covid changing everything.

Immigration. Who has restricted Overseas people buying and selling our houses etc etc. Who you gonna call .

Cleaner rivers no easy quick fix,just ask the farmers on the canterbury plains farming intensively on 80 metres of gravel, who encouraged allowed that, yes the N word again yep national and nitrogen. Elsewhere is easier and is happening incrementally.

Strange that you are so eager to be pleased with that list of abysmal failures.

Pike River expenditure of tens of millions for no change in the status quo. No mention of the Light Rail either. Oh, and by the way, immigration and house purchases by foreign buyers are two separate things.

It seems the Cindy dust has yet to shake from your eyes JT...perhaps it never will.

Joshuatree
08-05-2020, 02:05 PM
Try harder, look for something positive, keep away from penny dreadful fake reality choices.See if you can make up a valid list of concerns and acknowledge the successes this country and govt are achieving.

jonu
08-05-2020, 02:11 PM
Try harder, look for something positive, keep away from penny dreadful fake reality choices.See if you can make up a valid list of concerns and acknowledge the successes this country and govt are achieving.

All those failures are "fake reality"? They're not a "valid list of concerns"?

I'm not having to try hard. Those failures are there for all to see.

Aren't you even a little bit disappointed that you were bullsh***ed to by saintly Cindy on the main planks of Labour's election campaign? I might have also added child poverty which pre-Covid was measurably worse. Will be worse still now.

westerly
08-05-2020, 02:18 PM
The failure of this government to deliver on Kiwibuild, Capital Gains Tax and unlimited spending on Pike River - what has that got to do with National?

Labour was elected on its platform to deliver solutions - they had already laid the blame of everything that's wrong at National.

Now they must stand on fall on their own ability to deliver the solutions, surely!

Pike River possibly caused by the free market policies of Douglas and carried on by Richardson is not something Labour should have pursued. GST was not an election policy but should have been introduced.
Douglas destroyed the MOW with his free market policies. The MOW would have easily coped with
Kiwibuild and light rail with one hand behind their back.

westerly

Joshuatree
08-05-2020, 02:32 PM
Jonu
You may put our prime minister on a saintly pedestal, thats up to you, i dont. Where do you place yourself huh ;)
Abysmal fails", is just poo spin from your mouth nothing more.Keep saying it ala trump tactic style doesn't make it true just displays your own twisted parallel reality.

jonu
08-05-2020, 03:23 PM
Jonu
You may put our prime minister on a saintly pedestal, thats up to you, i dont. Where do you place yourself huh ;)
Abysmal fails", is just poo spin from your mouth nothing more.Keep saying it ala trump tactic style doesn't make it true just displays your own twisted parallel reality.

Oh the irony. Being accused of everything you yourself are doing. It'd be funny if it wasn't so bizarre.

Joshuatree
08-05-2020, 03:34 PM
BTW,would you put yourself as high as the PM LOL.

Balance
08-05-2020, 03:40 PM
Pike River possibly caused by the free market policies of Douglas and carried on by Richardson is not something Labour should have pursued. GST was not an election policy but should have been introduced.
Douglas destroyed the MOW with his free market policies. The MOW would have easily coped with
Kiwibuild and light rail with one hand behind their back.

westerly

Still blaming past decisions and governments.

No wonder NZ makes bugger all progress.

Like I wrote before, the half-blind leading the blind is a recipe for disaster - that's Kiwibuild. Don't blame others for failures.

Joshuatree
08-05-2020, 03:46 PM
Balance has never learned from his failures why? Because he has never had one:t_up:

Balance
08-05-2020, 03:53 PM
Balance has never learned from his failures why? Because he has never had one:t_up:

Time for you to buy that property now that the property market is going down. Bang on prediction, would you not agree that recovery will be in 2021?

Predictions change with changes in assumptions.

Grow up, JT - otherwise, you will be like David Clark or Clare Curran.

westerly
08-05-2020, 05:32 PM
Still blaming past decisions and governments.

No wonder NZ makes bugger all progress.

Like I wrote before, the half-blind leading the blind is a recipe for disaster - that's Kiwibuild. Don't blame others for failures.

With your expertise you should be in parliament. Or are you ? Either way your talents are wasted,
or are they ? :)

westerly

blackcap
08-05-2020, 06:21 PM
Labour are toast.

Gag orders on ministers. Open and transparent? I think not.

"If you do get a media query on this please provide a written response," it reads. "I would like to sign off and see all written response (sic). Do not put Minister up for any interviews on this."

The documents were released at 2pm - after the Government's only press conference of the day.

Newshub requested an interview with Health Minister David Clark - it was declined.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/leak-jacinda-ardern-gags-ministers-on-discussing-covid-19-response.html

jonu
08-05-2020, 08:30 PM
Labour are toast.

Gag orders on ministers. Open and transparent? I think not.

"If you do get a media query on this please provide a written response," it reads. "I would like to sign off and see all written response (sic). Do not put Minister up for any interviews on this."

The documents were released at 2pm - after the Government's only press conference of the day.

Newshub requested an interview with Health Minister David Clark - it was declined.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/leak-jacinda-ardern-gags-ministers-on-discussing-covid-19-response.html

The good old Friday afternoon media release. Cindy knows her media management alright.

I noticed today that for the first time reporters weren't so easily fobbed off by Grant Robertson on the Taiwan situation. Robertson, somewhat deviously suggested a journalist was playing with words, which was in fact exactly what Robertson was doing. Various other journalists asked follow up questions to nail him down. They collectively smelt blood...and no doubt were pissed off with his dismissal of their colleague. It's about time. The Press Gallery has been far too passive these last 6 weeks.

jonu
08-05-2020, 09:07 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121452782/coronavirus-government-escalates-stoush-over-lockdown-legal-advice-refers-national-leader-simon-bridges-to-the-privileges-committee

David Parker referring to a committee he would normally Chair. Priceless. Labour really is running scared on this. The more they doth protest, the more it smells like they have gone into this half arsed. No wonder the police were cautious in their early policing around level 4.

justakiwi
08-05-2020, 10:34 PM
Yes, part 2 is “silly” which is exactly my point. We have three parties of any real significance in this country. Only two of them will ever have the ability to form a government alone. Neither party gets it right 100% of the time. They never have and they never will. No matter which party is in power there will be decisions we disagree with. I don’t agree with every decision Labour has made, but they have made enough good ones, and have handled more than a few unexpected crisis situations over the last few years. National would not have handled them any better in my opinion. Balance and some others here, are hell bent on trashing Jacinda and Labour (but mostly Jacinda) and ignoring any of the positive/good things she/they have achieved. National have been part of the decision making around the coronavirus situation, and up until now, they have supported pretty much every decision made. They are now putting pressure on re level 2. Fair enough but I am damned sure they will be be the first to bitch if we go to level 2 and have an explosion of cases. As Jacinda has said, it isn’t them who will bear the brunt of a bad decision.

Some people are simply never happy, and there are more than few of them in this forum.


Two different things entirely. As far as delivering on promises - I don't think Muldoon, for all his weird ideas, ever failed to do what he promised. Pity.
Part two is silly - Even Santa can't satisfy that one.

Balance
09-05-2020, 12:52 PM
Labour are toast.

Gag orders on ministers. Open and transparent? I think not.

"If you do get a media query on this please provide a written response," it reads. "I would like to sign off and see all written response (sic). Do not put Minister up for any interviews on this."

The documents were released at 2pm - after the Government's only press conference of the day.

Newshub requested an interview with Health Minister David Clark - it was declined.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/leak-jacinda-ardern-gags-ministers-on-discussing-covid-19-response.html

Confirms Cindy as a grubby politician - worse actually given her promises of open & transparent interaction with NZers.

Cindy obviously believes in the mushroom approach - keep us all in the dark and feed us horse manure.

Well, not all of us are dumb enough to fall for her star dust (really bull dust).

Looking forward to the next media briefing when she can be grilled on such a cynical direction to her ministers.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330745

"There's no real need to defend because the public have confidence in what has been achieved and what the Govt is doing. Instead we can dismiss."

nztx
09-05-2020, 01:01 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel

"Coronavirus: Tourism minister warns high prices could dampen domestic travel


"A Tourism New Zealand marketing campaign will try to persuade Kiwis to spend up large on domestic travel, the way they did on overseas trips.

But Tourism Minister Kelvin Davis said operators would also need to come to the party over pricing to attract customers.

“People in tourism want visitors, but if they price themselves out of the market, they simply won't have that.”"


It seems that Kelvin is still fumbling around & hasn't woken up that he should be talking to "Cheque Book Grunt" just down the end of the same pew he is squatted at about what AIR ROBERTSON thinks it's playing at extracting more dimes out of Kiwi Travellers in difficult times..


Yet another fail by Davis it seems on this..

How has this fellow even managed to stay a Minister ?

nztx
09-05-2020, 01:06 PM
Labour's next Disasters coming up real soon -

1. More Business Carnage here:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...uring-lockdown

"Coronavirus: 70 job losses and more than $4 million owed by 13 businesses that fell victim to Covid-19 during lockdown"


and more likely to come



2. What's coming up after the Wage Subsidies end:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...ectid=12330623

"Covid 19 coronavirus: The new jobless..."

"Equally, she said, at the moment the government wage subsidy is masking the true impact of Covid-19. More than 1.7 million people - an astonishing 60 per cent of the workforce - are receiving the subsidy - but once it ceases there are likely to be more layoffs.

"There's going to be a long tail," Bradford said. "Where it really takes time is with people who have never been out of work before, they will usually borrow money and do anything they can because of the feelings around registering for welfare, the stigma.""


As was posted earlier on here about was seen in Australia - the same is here:

"Young people appear to have been the worst affected."



more at the link

fungus pudding
09-05-2020, 01:34 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel

"Coronavirus: Tourism minister warns high prices could dampen domestic travel


"A Tourism New Zealand marketing campaign will try to persuade Kiwis to spend up large on domestic travel, the way they did on overseas trips.

But Tourism Minister Kelvin Davis said operators would also need to come to the party over pricing to attract customers.

“People in tourism want visitors, but if they price themselves out of the market, they simply won't have that.”"


It seems that Kelvin is still fumbling around & hasn't woken up that he should be talking to "Cheque Book Grunt" just down the end of the same pew he is squatted at about what AIR ROBERTSON thinks it's playing at extracting more dimes out of Kiwi Travellers in difficult times..


Yet another fail by Davis it seems on this..

How has this fellow even managed to stay a Minister ?

How did he even manage to stay a school teacher?

Joshuatree
09-05-2020, 01:41 PM
Yes its come out of nowhere and rocked the world,Hopefully change from all this over consumption based world will come for the better of peoples and the planets well being. But the marketing campaign is about to start up and spin."You have to have the latest this and that".Over spend and over eat, buy stuff that you have to throw away shortly after because one part breaks and no spare parts are made etc.
They have to try with tourism, Aiussies and kiwis make up the bulk of them after all, but alot ofpeoples finances just wont be able to stretch that far for a while.

Thanks this govt has reacted fast to an ever changing situation and thanks to them speedily getting money out to the people that was so important to do.

Balance
10-05-2020, 09:19 AM
How did he even manage to stay a school teacher?

Those who cannot, teach.

Tourism is screwed with this numbskull in charge.

Balance
10-05-2020, 09:27 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government

Third term arrogance from this first term government.

Star dust turns to bull dust but as long as there are dumb-downed voters who swallow whole the ‘this government can do no wrong’ narrative, Cindy & her bunch of incompetents will continue to run the country into the ground.

David Clark, Phil Twyford, Clare Curran, Lees Calloway, Kelvin Davis etc etc ...👎🏻

Kiwibuild, CGT, child poverty, infrastructure upgrade, etc etc .. 👎🏻

macduffy
10-05-2020, 09:49 AM
Relax, Balance, perhaps the electorate, tired of this lockdown, will do a "Churchill" on this govt come September?

;)

fungus pudding
10-05-2020, 10:01 AM
Labour will bolt in at next election; not that they deserve to, they don't. But they can't lose when there is no alternative, and National with the uncharismatic Simon at the helm is no alternative.

Balance
10-05-2020, 10:17 AM
Labour will bolt in at next election; not that they deserve to, they don't. But they can't lose when there is no alternative, and National with the uncharismatic Simon at the helm is no alternative.

A country with a strong Opposition excels.

Agreed, NZ today is not that country.

Hence, the arrogance of Cindy - treating NZers as mushrooms fit only to live in the dark & get fed horse manure.

Transparency & openness - she pledged.

Let’s do this, she urged the electorate.

Completely & totally broken pledge in less than 3 years.

What is Cindy going to be like if she has another term? 👎🏻

westerly
10-05-2020, 01:35 PM
more at the link

Bit like your comments , they do not connect

westerly

justakiwi
10-05-2020, 02:12 PM
Oh, so you don’t like teachers either. Why am I not surprised.


Those who cannot, teach.

fungus pudding
10-05-2020, 02:30 PM
Oh, so you don’t like teachers either.

So why don't you like teachers Justakiwi?

justakiwi
10-05-2020, 02:49 PM
You’re hilarious.


So why don't you like teachers Justakiwi?

Joshuatree
10-05-2020, 03:19 PM
Are these the first signs of third term arrogance from a first term government?
What a lazy sloppy piece of"journalism" making guesses and assumptions and forgetting whats gone down and paraphrasing making her own opinion as fact. Unbelievable considering what this Govt has done and why waste time with triviality as they have a huge workload ahead getting this country back on track, colossal full on getting the right strategies and actions that wont please all of the people no matter what they do.

Look at all the hands out demanding, no way will they all be satisfied without sending this country broke. No way will they be able to announce detailed plans etc yet its all new and the Govt knows there is a vicious underbelly here of bitter national people and journos under pressure hence the the focus on negativity and cult of personality, survival of self and media.

I celebrate what this govt is doing and has done, far from perfect but pretty damn amazing considering NO PRECEDENT or blueprint to go off. No whining or hands out from me just thankful , especially as it looks like we could be in level two 2 weeks earlier then anyone dreamed of. Energy to our govt they are going to need every bit in the weeks and months ahead. I celebrate my family members in care facilities are safe and our fatalities are lowatpit. Im concerned about all the bubble breakers possibly putting us back to level 4. Fingers crossed.

Balance
10-05-2020, 03:23 PM
Are these the first signs of third term arrogance from a first term government?


David Clark's behaviour absolutely and conclusively sign of a self-entitled arrogant Labourite.

Telling ministers not to respond to questions and inquiries from the media about how the government has handled the lockdown & outbreak - absolutely.

Open & transparent government, remember?

Xerof
10-05-2020, 03:59 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/121397294/where-is-our-tourism-minister-when-we-need-him-the-most

Good question - where is the tourism minister?He's on holiday:D

fungus pudding
10-05-2020, 04:04 PM
You’re hilarious.

You seem like a bit of a hoot yourself.

Balance
10-05-2020, 05:51 PM
Oh, so you don’t like teachers either. Why am I not surprised.

Now I am surprised you do not like teachers!

I have nothing but the greatest respect for dedicated, hard working, intelligent and caring teachers.

But Kelvin Davis's performance outside of the classroom is nothing short of diabolical.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/paul-henry-and-kelvin-davis-clash-over-how-fast-new-zealand-s-tourism-industry-should-be-reopened.html

This buffoon could not come out with one single concrete plan when he was questioned by Paul Henry - and he has had 6 weeks to work on a plan!

All he could say is that there is no plan until such time as the tourism sector has an idea what the future of tourism looks like!

Sir Ten
10-05-2020, 06:56 PM
Now I am surprised you do not like teachers!

I have nothing but the greatest respect for dedicated, hard working, intelligent and caring teachers.

But Kelvin Davis's performance outside of the classroom is nothing short of diabolical.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/paul-henry-and-kelvin-davis-clash-over-how-fast-new-zealand-s-tourism-industry-should-be-reopened.html

This buffoon could not come out with one single concrete plan when he was questioned by Paul Henry - and he has had 6 weeks to work on a plan!

All he could say is that there is no plan until such time as the tourism sector has an idea what the future of tourism looks like!

Total word salad from KD. He looked extremely unprepared and uncomfortable. Classic stuff, fun to watch.

Balance
10-05-2020, 07:30 PM
Total word salad from KD. He looked extremely unprepared and uncomfortable. Classic stuff, fun to watch.

And this guy is the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party!

Clearly not elected for his brains but Maori credentials - tokenism at its most cynical & grubbiest to put him in a position well beyond his ability. Poor sod.

ynot
11-05-2020, 07:58 AM
And this guy is the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party!

Clearly not elected for his brains but Maori credentials - tokenism at its most cynical & grubbiest to put him in a position well beyond his ability. Poor sod.

Bring on the election .

RTM
11-05-2020, 08:42 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/jacinda-ardern-s-touching-mother-s-day-message-strikes-a-chord-with-millions-of-families-unable-to-be-with-their-loved-ones-during-lockdown/ar-BB13RzzO?ocid=msedgntp

Jeeze.....while I am not as fervent as a lot of you seem to be.....this just makes me wanna puke !
Talk about ramping up the PR machine.

macduffy
11-05-2020, 08:58 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/jacinda-ardern-s-touching-mother-s-day-message-strikes-a-chord-with-millions-of-families-unable-to-be-with-their-loved-ones-during-lockdown/ar-BB13RzzO?ocid=msedgntp

Jeeze.....while I am not as fervent as a lot of you seem to be.....this just makes me wanna puke !
Talk about ramping up the PR machine.

But she's just doing what she does best!

;)

winner69
11-05-2020, 02:29 PM
THE PERILS OF PREMATURE CONGRATULATION

https://democracyproject.nz/2020/05/11/graham-adams-the-perils-of-premature-congratulation/

Joshuatree
11-05-2020, 02:55 PM
The PM and Govt are to be congratulated for what they've done so far, no doubt about that.But they are only as good as their last action and there are just so many levers and balancing acts to go, im sure they wont get through unblemished that would be expecting a pedestal and who's that unrealistic. So congrats so far .

I agree about Kelvin Davis , way out of his depth.needs to be replaced .

jonu
11-05-2020, 03:21 PM
Level 2 rules made up as we go along.

Can go to the movies, school, go to a restaurant, but not church if more than 10 people. Astounding. Just another example of disappearing Human Rights creep.

blackcap
11-05-2020, 03:41 PM
Level 2 rules made up as we go along.

Can go to the movies, school, go to a restaurant, but not church if more than 10 people. Astounding. Just another example of disappearing Human Rights creep.

That bit about being able to go to movies and restaurant and have more than 10 people in them, but not able to attend church is a bit weird. A lot of the South Aucklanders will be feeling very aggrieved. Makes a mockery of the levels system. It is shambolic, all over the show and shows they really do not know what they are doing at all.

RTM
11-05-2020, 03:43 PM
THE PERILS OF PREMATURE CONGRATULATION

https://democracyproject.nz/2020/05/11/graham-adams-the-perils-of-premature-congratulation/

Thanks for posting...nice to see some decent journalism.

Joshuatree
11-05-2020, 03:48 PM
Softly softly, not long to wait for bars and churches, 21st may.

"he warned that groupings would also be restricted to just 10 people."Why 10? simple. If something goes wrong, that's much easier to contain, much easier to contact trace."
This limit would apply to parties at home, stag and hen parties, church meetings, weddings, funerals and group bookings at restaurants or bars." PM Ardern reveals staggered move to level 2 (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416359/covid-19-pm-jacinda-ardern-reveals-staggered-move-to-alert-level-2)

RTM
11-05-2020, 03:58 PM
Softly softly, not long to wait for bars and churches, 21st may.

"he warned that groupings would also be restricted to just 10 people."Why 10? simple. If something goes wrong, that's much easier to contain, much easier to contact trace."
This limit would apply to parties at home, stag and hen parties, church meetings, weddings, funerals and group bookings at restaurants or bars." PM Ardern reveals staggered move to level 2 (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416359/covid-19-pm-jacinda-ardern-reveals-staggered-move-to-alert-level-2)

The “why 10” answer was far from convincing. 5 is easier than 10, 8 is easier than 10.
I guess it’s because for most people it’s number of digits on both hands. Surely that makes more sense ?

jonu
11-05-2020, 03:59 PM
Softly softly, not long to wait for bars and churches, 21st may.

"he warned that groupings would also be restricted to just 10 people."Why 10? simple. If something goes wrong, that's much easier to contain, much easier to contact trace."
This limit would apply to parties at home, stag and hen parties, church meetings, weddings, funerals and group bookings at restaurants or bars." PM Ardern reveals staggered move to level 2 (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416359/covid-19-pm-jacinda-ardern-reveals-staggered-move-to-alert-level-2)

Yet schools will be open. Cinemas, public transport. It's an ill thought out mess.

RTM
11-05-2020, 04:04 PM
The PM and Govt are to be congratulated for what they've done so far, no doubt about that.But they are only as good as their last action and there are just so many levers and balancing acts to go, im sure they wont get through unblemished that would be expecting a pedestal and who's that unrealistic. So congrats so far .

I agree about Kelvin Davis , way out of his depth.needs to be replaced .

Nothing’s changed, he’s the same as he was at the last election.

justakiwi
11-05-2020, 04:10 PM
Wtf do you guys actually want then? You whinge about absolutely everything the government does. You are never happy about anything. Would it hurt you to express even a modicum of appreciation for something? You’re like a freaking bunch of 3 year olds.

Joshuatree
11-05-2020, 04:12 PM
Meanwhile. When i was young we were taught to "get back on the horse" try again ,learn from past mistakes , get it right, be resilient. Quietly doing this un noticed, Ading huge value to NZ wood.


Support for wood processing sector 'a masterstroke' for Twyford | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121463372/support-for-wood-processing-sector-a-masterstroke-for-twyford)

blackcap
11-05-2020, 04:13 PM
Wtf do you guys actually want then? You whinge about absolutely everything the government does. You are never happy about anything. Would it hurt you to express even a modicum of appreciation for something? You’re like a freaking bunch of 3 year olds.

Clarity, consistency and transparency. The level system was announced about 8 weeks ago. Yet they are still making it up as they go along. That is the problem. No point having a level system if you are going to change the definitions on an ad hoc basis.

BlackPeter
11-05-2020, 04:15 PM
Wtf do you guys actually want then? You whinge about absolutely everything the government does. You are never happy about anything. Would it hurt you to express even a modicum of appreciation for something? You’re like a freaking bunch of 3 year olds.

What do you expect? Most of them are staunch Trump supporters ;):

fungus pudding
11-05-2020, 04:21 PM
Wtf do you guys actually want then? You whinge about absolutely everything the government does. You are never happy about anything. Would it hurt you to express even a modicum of appreciation for something? You’re like a freaking bunch of 3 year olds.

Which guys are you guys?

BlackPeter
11-05-2020, 04:22 PM
Clarity, consistency and transparency. The level system was announced about 8 weeks ago. Yet they are still making it up as they go along. That is the problem. No point having a level system if you are going to change the definitions on an ad hoc basis.

True. On the other hand - it takes typically years to work and think through acts of this complexity to get them right. Maybe we should cut them a bit of slack for some easy to fix inconsistencies and look instead at the things they got right ... and be all glad that we live neither in Borislandia nor in Trumpland where narcissistic and populist idiots at the helm are currently demonstrating how a really messed up COVID-19 response looks like.

justakiwi
11-05-2020, 04:24 PM
I know. It does my head in :(


What do you expect? Most of them are staunch Trump supporters ;):

justakiwi
11-05-2020, 04:25 PM
If you have to ask you’re probably one of them ;)
(anyone for whom the above description fits)


Which guys are you guys?

Joshuatree
11-05-2020, 04:25 PM
Yet schools will be open. Cinemas, public transport. It's an ill thought out mess.

What would you have done?Constantly changing, constant inflow of data.Has to be done pretty quickly.
What i think is a no brainer is mixing the church and bars together. Praying over a pint of guiness or stoking up the fires of ones imagination at the pulpit with a good malt whiskey in your non pointing hand.

jonu
11-05-2020, 04:28 PM
Wtf do you guys actually want then? You whinge about absolutely everything the government does. You are never happy about anything. Would it hurt you to express even a modicum of appreciation for something? You’re like a freaking bunch of 3 year olds.

My main beef with the "new improved " rules for level 2 is the inconsistency to the point of stupidity. When my fundamental Human Rights are being interfered with and impinged with a moveable feast of poorly thought out rules I get a mite tetchy.

Joshuatree
11-05-2020, 04:39 PM
You mean you hunt for something to complain about because that is your nature , that of a critic.Have a pint and say 10 hailmarys then do a ministry of silly walks, laugh your head off , its good medicine;)

justakiwi
11-05-2020, 04:48 PM
If you seriously believe your human rights are being denied, I pity you. There are people all over the world who live with no human rights. They would swap places with you in a heartbeat. This is what is wrong with Western Society - everyone has this ridiculous sense of entitlement and think their throats are cut when are are a little inconvenienced. Your life in NZ is a life of luxury compared to those who genuinely have their human rights ignored. Girls being mutilated by forced circumcision, children being exploited in the sex industry, human trafficking and many, many other unconscionable acts of cruelty/exploitation. There is no comparison to what you are “being denied.’

But God help Jacinda for locking you down for a few weeks.


When my fundamental Human Rights are being interfered with and impinged with a moveable feast of poorly thought out rules I get a mite tetchy.

jonu
11-05-2020, 04:51 PM
You mean you hunt for something to complain about because that is your nature , that of a critic.Have a pint and say 10 hailmarys then do a ministry of silly walks, laugh your head off , its good medicine;)

It's not that I don't have a sense of humour, it's just that we are dealing with the fundamentals of our society here. And a government that is prepared to run up intergenerational debt.

Any casual observer can spot the ever increasing amounts of spin that accompany Ardern's briefings. (The briefings she said she was going to personally cut down on...until she realised what a golden propaganda opportunity they are).

We have a bunch of incompetents running roughshod over everything Westen Democracy holds dear. It's easy to to shut everything down. Far harder to actually plot a course that balances Health vs Economy. This is where they are incompetent. How many lives will be lost over the next 5 years when Health and Social Services Budgets will be constrained by debt?

It feels like they were still tweaking these Level 2 rules this morning. 6+ weeks after the levels system was announced. If I was running a 100 billion dollar business I sure as hell wouldn't put Cindy in charge. She'd make a handy PR spin doctor though.

Joshuatree
11-05-2020, 04:57 PM
Tweaking is the norm in this super fast changing world, flexibility and adapting to constant change is vital, thank dog we have had such a responsible logical proactive govt. So far ,So very good...........

jonu
11-05-2020, 04:57 PM
If you seriously believe your human rights are being denied, I pity you. There are people all over the world who live with no human rights. They would swap places with you in a heartbeat. This is what is wrong with Western Society - everyone has this ridiculous sense of entitlement and think their throats are cut when are are a little inconvenienced. Your life in NZ is a life of luxury compared to those who genuinely have their human rights ignored. Girls being mutilated by forced circumcision, children being exploited in the sex industry, human trafficking and many, many other unconscionable acts of cruelty/exploitation. There is no comparison to what you are “being denied.’

But God help Jacinda for locking you down for a few weeks.

Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.

justakiwi
11-05-2020, 05:19 PM
This comment is just a cop-out and shows how ignorant you are on the issues of human rights. Your assumption that these things only happen in so-called “Banana Republics” is incorrect. Maybe do some homework on the subject.

BTW, there is a very big difference between imposing temporary restrictions on people, for the good of the wider population, and a government that exploits their power just because they can. The two scenarios are poles apart.


Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.

jonu
11-05-2020, 05:27 PM
This comment is just a cop-out and shows how ignorant you are on the issues of human rights. Your assumption that these things only happen in so-called “Banana Republics” is incorrect. Maybe do some homework on the subject.

BTW, there is a very big difference between imposing temporary restrictions on people, for the good of the wider population, and a government that exploits their power just because they can. The two scenarios are poles apart.

The nature of those restrictions, how they are imposed, for how long etc must always be up for debate. As for exploiting their position...Labour have been at that for weeks, with ever lengthening spin being applied by Ardern. The leaked email from her office over the weekend confirms how manipulative the inner sanctum is, and also spells out her lack of confidence in her Cabinet. That's something Ardern and I agree upon.

fungus pudding
11-05-2020, 05:33 PM
Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.

The primary duty of any govt. should be protection of its citizens, and while the methods they chose will be debated for years, they honoured their duty. Inarguable.

Sir Ten
11-05-2020, 05:41 PM
Wtf do you guys actually want then? You whinge about absolutely everything the government does. You are never happy about anything. Would it hurt you to express even a modicum of appreciation for something? You’re like a freaking bunch of 3 year olds.

My guess is that most of the people on this forum are naturally right-leaning, capitalist types which probably explains some of it (certainly covers me off), but I think most of the unhappiness and discontent stems from the fact that very few mainstream commentators/journalists have appropriately held the Government to account.

jonu
11-05-2020, 05:43 PM
The primary duty of any govt. should be protection of it's citizens, and while the methods they chose will be debated for years, they honoured their duty. Inarguable.

And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.

justakiwi
11-05-2020, 06:15 PM
It is so easy for you (and others) to put forward the “at what cost?” argument from the safety of your armchair. But I suspect that you might have a different perspective if you had lost a loved one to this virus, or had personal experience of being hospitalised with it. I expect the government of the day to do what they need to do to protect me, my family, and my fellow Kiwis. I don’t give a **** what that costs. Yes, I get that the economy is affected and I understand the consequences of that, but it will never come before the lives of human beings for me. Never. I am so grateful that we have a government that was not prepared to sacrifice lives. Thank God we don’t have a blithering idiot running the country, suggesting that scientists can pump us full of disinfectant, or claiming “a great result!” When 80,000 human beings are dead. I sometimes wonder if some people here are just so attached to wealth/financial security in one way or another, that they can no longer see beyond financial considerations. Makes me glad I’m poor because the day I start putting money ahead of human life, is the day you can put a bullet between my eyes.


And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.

fungus pudding
11-05-2020, 06:21 PM
And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.

Not much point in ranking the the things we need to be protected from when obviously you see something else as their main duty. You seem to have fired off a strange response to my simple statement. I can't imagine what you have read into it. Good luck.

westerly
11-05-2020, 06:27 PM
And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.

Fundamentals of our society, Western democracy being ignored, inter generational debt. My fundamental human rights are being interfered with. My god, next we will have jack booted storm troopers marching down the main streets of NZ. People will be locked up for not keeping 2 metres apart.
Get real you don't have human rights, you have obligations to family,society, and your country. You only have rights when someone forgets their obligations. The Govt has as has been suggested an obligation to protect it’s citizens
The word could is the most used word at the moment. This could happen and so on. Come back in 2 years and in hindsight tell us where they went wrong.

westerly

Bjauck
11-05-2020, 06:46 PM
Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do. I agree with you on this point. Western Society has developed along a twin track of enabling safety, order & prosperity along with personal liberty & human rights. The argument that you should not worry as others have fewer freedoms or rights, would tend to reduce the vigilance to maintain - and improve - existing rights.

From Magna Carta, habeas corpus, through to Bill of Rights and Race Relations Act, these should all be jealously protected from Executive Incursion - even in and perhaps especially in a crisis. Government should be held to account. Executives would otherwise tend to prefer to act with impunity and without scrutiny.

macduffy
11-05-2020, 07:36 PM
Well of course the rules have to be changed as circumstances change. We haven't had this situation before; there's no "user guide" for handling a pandemic, the characteristics of which are still not fully understood. Just be thankful that we don't have the UK's problems - four countries, four different ideas as to the next step to take; announcing an arrivals quarantine, eventually, details and timing yet to be determined! Fred Dagg was right, we don't know how lucky we are!

Balance
11-05-2020, 07:40 PM
Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.

Yup - notice how the narrative from Cindy’s apologists is always to compare with the worse, rather than the best?

Oh, we are doing so well In containing the virus compared to the US or the UK but let’s not compare against Taiwan, HK etc.

justakiwi
11-05-2020, 08:11 PM
Why do we have to compare to anybody? Why can’t we simply accept and be be grateful for the fact that we have averted a potential disaster? And don’t try to tell me we would have achieved that without our government’s lockdown actions because that is just a fantasy. As with any project, task or whatever - there is always more than one way to skin a cat. As others have said, there is no rule book for covid19. Every country in the world was flying blind. Every country in the world had to formulate a plan of action for their citizens. Our plan might have been different from some other country’s, but it worked. Read my lips .... it worked!

Things will be tough for a while - everywhere. We do not have that on our own. But we will get through it, like every other difficult situation NZ has been through. Your negative, constantly pessimistic attitude helps nobody. Least of all you.


Yup - notice how the narrative from Cindy’s apologists is always to compare with the worse, rather than the best?

Oh, we are doing so well In containing the virus compared to the US or the UK but let’s not compare against Taiwan, HK etc.

jonu
11-05-2020, 08:13 PM
"It was also disappointing to hear the Prime Minister say she's worked with the hospitality association to come up with these guidelines and that's not true at all. We were told about the rules about an hour before. Telling someone what the rules are isn't working with the sector."

Hospitality NZ Wellington branch's Matt McLaughlin quoted in Stuff.

Level 2 rules made up on the hoof after having 6+ weeks to prepare. But don't worry...Cindy doesn't have to justify...she can dismiss. At least according to her own office.

Joshuatree
11-05-2020, 08:13 PM
Its a job done well in incredibly fast evolving, first time circumstances cant you acknowledge that reality.
Whats apologising got to do with anything, you're barking up a wilding pine there.

dobby41
12-05-2020, 08:20 AM
Level 2 rules made up on the hoof after having 6+ weeks to prepare. But don't worry...Cindy doesn't have to justify...she can dismiss. At least according to her own office.

I can imagine the bitching if they have made the L2 rules 6 weeks ago and stuck to them without looking at what has happened since then.
The understanding of how covid-19 works and what measures work and don't is continually evolving.
Wait until the L2 rules change again in the next few weeks as they learn what is good and what needs work.
It is a good thing that they aren't wedded hard to one stance and are willing to learn as they go. There is no manual for this!

Balance
12-05-2020, 09:29 AM
Why do we have to compare to anybody? Why can’t we simply accept and be be grateful for the fact that we have averted a potential disaster? And don’t try to tell me we would have achieved that without our government’s lockdown actions because that is just a fantasy. As with any project, task or whatever - there is always more than one way to skin a cat. As others have said, there is no rule book for covid19. Every country in the world was flying blind. Every country in the world had to formulate a plan of action for their citizens. Our plan might have been different from some other country’s, but it worked. Read my lips .... it worked!

Things will be tough for a while - everywhere. We do not have that on our own. But we will get through it, like every other difficult situation NZ has been through. Your negative, constantly pessimistic attitude helps nobody. Least of all you.

Pessimistic? Have a read of what I wrote when the market fell out of bed and crashed in March - I dare you to find anyone else on this forum with the optimistic conviction I wrote then.

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11761-We-are-not-all-perfect-at-this-not-everybody-gets-it-right

Point that it worked is great - nobody disagrees with it.

But did NZ need a hammer to crack the nut, when other countries like Taiwan, HK, Australia and South Korea to name 4 showed we did not to.

The wasteland of joblessness and unemployment which Cindy & her incompetents bequeath from the hammer blows will reverberate in depression, hopelessness, debt burden and suicides for years to come.

That is the point which you miss - you don't need a hammer to crack a nut.

justakiwi
12-05-2020, 09:42 AM
No, this is the point you are missing. You can only make the comment below based on hindsight. Until the various countries enacted their respective plans of action, nobody knew what would or would not work. That is the reality. Nobody had the benefit of hindsight when they were making those decisions, so you are being totally unfair by continuing to use those comparisons as your “proof” that our government “screwed up.” They did not.

Btw, you need to stop referencing suicide in your arguments - seriously. Mental health experts were talking about this just the other day. When people like you constantly use “there will be an explosion of depression and suicides” propaganda, it has the potential to negatively influence people who may be struggling. Those people need positive messages from the rest of us, not doom and gloom messages that make them believe life is no longer worth living. There is currently no evidence that your claims are even correct. It is nothing more than scaremongering that you have adopted to support your arguments. I am sure even you, do not want blood on your hands. And just so you know, I am deadly serious about this.



That is the point which you miss - you don't need a hammer to crack a nut.

jonu
12-05-2020, 10:18 AM
Here is a link to a well thought out article. I agree with parts, disagree with others, but it might explain as to why debate is important.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/12-05-2020/a-modest-defence-of-the-coronavirus-contrarians/

Balance
12-05-2020, 10:22 AM
Btw, you need to stop referencing suicide in your arguments - seriously. Mental health experts were talking about this just the other day. When people like you constantly use “there will be an explosion of depression and suicides” propaganda, it has the potential to negatively influence people who may be struggling. Those people need positive messages from the rest of us, not doom and gloom messages that make them believe life is no longer worth living. There is currently no evidence that your claims are even correct. It is nothing more than scaremongering that you have adopted to support your arguments. I am sure even you, do not want blood on your hands. And just so you know, I am deadly serious about this.

And I am deadly serious, having seen the devastating effect of high unemployment during the late 1980s & late 1990s, that this government better have good policies and help in place for the explosion of unemployment to come when the wage subsidy runs out.

You mean well, justakiwi, but read this article and you will see that there is a direct link between suicides & unemployment :

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/11/unemployment-causes-45000-suicides-a-year-worldwide-finds-study

No point having the head in the sand - acknowledge the problem and deal to it.

Cindy & her ilk:

- are very prolific with spending tax-payers' money recklessly,

- have had a charmed life, living off the taxes paid by those who take risks and employ NZers,

- have not got a clue about creating real jobs,

yet the many Mom & Dad self-employed & employers are the very people they are kicking in the teeth, offering zero direct help!

They have no idea of how terrible things are going to get for the many tens of thousands who are going to be unemployed due to the ham-fisted lockdown strategy.

Blood on my hands? I am making the obvious observation - blood is going to be on the hands of Cindy & her bunch of incompetent ministers if they continue to make policies with a socialist bent rather than help all NZers.

fungus pudding
12-05-2020, 10:37 AM
No, this is the point you are missing. You can only make the comment below based on hindsight. Until the various countries enacted their respective plans of action, nobody knew what would or would not work. That is the reality. Nobody had the benefit of hindsight when they were making those decisions, so you are being totally unfair by continuing to use those comparisons as your “proof” that our government “screwed up.” They did not.

Btw, you need to stop referencing suicide in your arguments - seriously. Mental health experts were talking about this just the other day. When people like you constantly use “there will be an explosion of depression and suicides” propaganda, it has the potential to negatively influence people who may be struggling. Those people need positive messages from the rest of us, not doom and gloom messages that make them believe life is no longer worth living. There is currently no evidence that your claims are even correct. It is nothing more than scaremongering that you have adopted to support your arguments. I am sure even you, do not want blood on your hands. And just so you know, I am deadly serious about this.

If there is no evidence that Balances claims are correct as you claim, why do you think that positive messages, which you say are needed, would magically have an effect?
Can you not understand that the success of NZ's approach can-not be measured on the minute amount of evidence available? It may have been beneficial, but then it may prove to be disastrous. We just don't know. Lets see what the next ten to twenty years bring.

justakiwi
12-05-2020, 11:03 AM
I didn’t say positive messages would have a magical effect. I said they would be preferable to Balance’s comments about the pending tsunami of suicides, which have the potential to do harm. It is the message being sent by mental health authorities - not just me.

Yes I do understand that we have limited evidence, but so is the evidence from the countries Balance thinks did a better job. Time will provide us with greater knowledge and down the track, if we ever face a situation like this again, the entire world may be better prepared. Or ... the next virus may be a completely different kettle of fish, and we may all have to start from scratch all over again.


If there is no evidence that Balances claims are correct as you claim, why do you think that positive messages, which you say are needed, would magically have an effect?
Can you not understand that the success of NZ's approach can-not be measured on the minute amount of evidence available? It may have been beneficial, but then it may prove to be disastrous. We just don't know. Lets see what the next ten to twenty years bring.

justakiwi
12-05-2020, 11:10 AM
Don’t do that :t_down:




You mean well, justakiwi.....

Balance
12-05-2020, 12:24 PM
And I am deadly serious, having seen the devastating effect of high unemployment during the late 1980s & late 1990s, that this government better have good policies and help in place for the explosion of unemployment to come when the wage subsidy runs out.



And the explosion of unemployment continues (even before the wage subsidy runs out):

Bunnings - 170+ jobs

Sky City - 700+ jobs

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121484712/bunnings-proposing-closure-of-seven-stores

winner69
12-05-2020, 12:31 PM
And the explosion of unemployment continues (even before the wage subsidy runs out):

Bunnings - 170+ jobs

Sky City - 700+ jobs

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121484712/bunnings-proposing-closure-of-seven-stores

Lot of Aussie based HQs taking the opportunity to tune up their NZ operations and squeeze as much as they can out if NZers wallets.

A few more to come I reckon ...after that NZ Steel pipe division, Hardies fibre cement, Bunnings etc etc

Balance
12-05-2020, 12:41 PM
Lot of Aussie based HQs taking the opportunity to tune up their NZ operations and squeeze as much as they can out if NZers wallets.

A few more to come I reckon ...after that NZ Steel pipe division, Hardies fibre cement, Bunnings etc etc

Very pertinent observation of what is happening.

Unfortunately it happens every recession - the foreign companies will always preserve jobs in their home countries first.

Where are the replacement jobs going to come from?

dobby41
12-05-2020, 12:55 PM
And the explosion of unemployment continues (even before the wage subsidy runs out):

Bunnings - 170+ jobs

Sky City - 700+ jobs

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121484712/bunnings-proposing-closure-of-seven-stores

I can understand Sky City - they don't have a business for a while - but Bunnings?
Using covid as an excuse.
Recently have a new, large, Bunnings on the south side of Hamilton, closer to Cambridge and Te Awamutu so I can understand those - not covid related.

fungus pudding
12-05-2020, 01:29 PM
I didn’t say positive messages would have a magical effect. I said they would be preferable to Balance’s comments about the pending tsunami of suicides, which have the potential to do harm. It is the message being sent by mental health authorities - not just me.

Yes I do understand that we have limited evidence, but so is the evidence from the countries Balance thinks did a better job. Time will provide us with greater knowledge and down the track, if we ever face a situation like this again, the entire world may be better prepared. Or ... the next virus may be a completely different kettle of fish, and we may all have to start from scratch all over again.

And what do the mental health 'authorities' (whoever they are) say about not bringing out the data for the benefit of school teachers, social workers, parents, doctors , police, magistrates, the population at large etc? There are experts who point to the benefit of making such things completely open. Very hard to intervene in a problem if you are not aware of the wide extent of the problem. Think about it.

justakiwi
12-05-2020, 01:40 PM
You are being pedantic for the sake of it. My comment was in relation to the current situation only, not a general comment on mental health and suicide. You know what I mean. You are just trying to cloud the issue with an attempt to widen the scope of my comment.

I am out. I going to work now to do what I do best - caring for and being kind to other human beings. Genuinely, not just for my own agenda.


And what do the mental health 'authorities' (whoever they are) say about not bringing out the data for the benefit of school teachers, social workers, parents, doctors , police, magistrates, the population at large etc? There are experts who point to the benefit of making such things completely open. Very hard to intervene in a problem if you are not aware of the wide extent of the problem. Think about it.

fungus pudding
12-05-2020, 01:52 PM
You are being pedantic for the sake of it. My comment was in relation to the current situation only, not a general comment on mental health and suicide. You know what I mean. You are just trying to cloud the issue with an attempt to widen the scope of my comment.


I have no idea what you meant, and I have no idea how i possibly could. I am not psychic.

Balance
12-05-2020, 03:43 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12331181

Butcher commits suicide. 😢

RIP.

blackcap
12-05-2020, 03:45 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12331181

Butcher commits suicide. ��

That one is totally on Labour. The messaging at the time was poor, inept and it was a tragedy that supermarkets could stay open, 4 squares and dairies ok, but not butchers. Unfortunately as Balance has already alluded to, he will not be the last either as the stress of the lockdown starts to take its toll. There will be a heavy price to pay for future generations, with all the subsidy money and bailout money having to come from somewhere. I think the young people are going to end up bearing the burden of the cost. Really sad.

Balance
12-05-2020, 04:15 PM
That one is totally on Labour. The messaging at the time was poor, inept and it was a tragedy that supermarkets could stay open, 4 squares and dairies ok, but not butchers. Unfortunately as Balance has already alluded to, he will not be the last either as the stress of the lockdown starts to take its toll. There will be a heavy price to pay for future generations, with all the subsidy money and bailout money having to come from somewhere. I think the young people are going to end up bearing the burden of the cost. Really sad.

Not just dairies but green grocers too.

Must have been devastating for him to have put his life and soul into the business, built it up over the years - his pride and joy, and to see the business destroyed with zero direct help from this government.

nztx
12-05-2020, 08:41 PM
Not just dairies but green grocers too.

Must have been devastating for him to have put his life and soul into the business, built it up over the years - his pride and joy, and to see the business destroyed with zero direct help from this government.


It also applies to many Bricks & Mortar stores which were dictated to, to be closed through Levels 3 & 4 regardless of whether they could safely operate.

Add to that small businesses (sole traders) operating quite happily on their own with little or no people contact - again not on Govt's "Essential" list eg Sole Charge Contractors .. but left out by 5-6 weeks left hanging, when they could have been productive.

nztx
12-05-2020, 08:44 PM
Add to the List 'Fast Foodies & Takeaways' which were capable of safe operation - as included on "Essential Businesses" list by Govt Advisers - but that was apparently ignored & negated by the Labour Govt in their infinite ignorant tardy bliss..


The same businesses across the Tasman were considered for most part essential & permitted to operate

nztx
12-05-2020, 08:50 PM
Lot of Aussie based HQs taking the opportunity to tune up their NZ operations and squeeze as much as they can out if NZers wallets.

A few more to come I reckon ...after that NZ Steel pipe division, Hardies fibre cement, Bunnings etc etc

If you were an Aussie owned Business operating in NZ largely ignored, left with large Losses & out of pocket by the Labour Govt's imposed Lockdown with no real significant relief seen or on the horizon from Govt (and having seen Govt carry employees also at your expense, but also largely ignored your business welfare) - would you not rationalise your NZ operations as well ?

Balance
13-05-2020, 07:49 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416464/tourism-minister-under-fire-for-not-acting-fast-enough

The non existent tourism minister Kelvin Davis struggling to explain what he has been doing during the 7 weeks of lockdown.

Too late - as the tourism operators said, all that the wage subsidy did was prolong the inevitable without other forms of government support - the jobs are gone.

Get ready for the mother of all unemployment to surface in 3 months’ time.

dobby41
13-05-2020, 07:59 AM
Too late - as the tourism operators said, all that the wage subsidy did was prolong the inevitable without other forms of government support - the jobs are gone.


It wouldn't be possible to save all the jobs - international tourists are gone for a while so some business just won't survive.
If this Govt had initiated a lessor lockdown the same would have happened - the borders would still be shut.

You are going to be very busy posting all the job losses - they are expected and will happen. The alternative is that the Govt (us tax payers) support zombie business for at least the year to come.

Balance
13-05-2020, 08:12 AM
It wouldn't be possible to save all the jobs - international tourists are gone for a while so some business just won't survive.
If this Govt had initiated a lessor lockdown the same would have happened - the borders would still be shut.

You are going to be very busy posting all the job losses - they are expected and will happen. The alternative is that the Govt (us tax payers) support zombie business for at least the year to come.

Fair enough but in a time of crisis, the country needs direction - especially the vulnerable business sectors. They have got NONE from Cindy & her incompetents.

However 🤔

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300010333/coronavirus-government-spending-1400-per-week-each-to-house-support-homeless

Government has been extremely generous to beneficiaries however.

No expenses spared - whatever it takes.

Wonder why?🤔

jonu
13-05-2020, 08:25 AM
Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.

The following story involves events pre-Covid! Imagine what they will feel emboldened to try now. Note the arrogance of the Police response...effectively, "Oh we tried it and didn't pursue it", neglecting completely that they weren't meant to be trying it in the first place.

This is the same Police force that turned a blind eye to illegal road checkpoints throughout the country.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12331487

blackcap
13-05-2020, 08:43 AM
The following story involves events pre-Covid! Imagine what they will feel emboldened to try now. Note the arrogance of the Police response...effectively, "Oh we tried it and didn't pursue it", neglecting completely that they weren't meant to be trying it in the first place.

This is the same Police force that turned a blind eye to illegal road checkpoints throughout the country.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12331487

That is a real worry Jonu. It is interesting that the Greens, who would normally take a bullet than be the subject of GCSB or other surveillance, are very quiet at these times, especially with the new laws being pushed through Parliament giving the police more powers. Wonder why?

dobby41
13-05-2020, 09:42 AM
Fair enough but in a time of crisis, the country needs direction - especially the vulnerable business sectors. They have got NONE from Cindy & her incompetents.

However ��

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300010333/coronavirus-government-spending-1400-per-week-each-to-house-support-homeless

Government has been extremely generous to beneficiaries however.

No expenses spared - whatever it takes.

Wonder why?��

You'd rather that they were on the streets?

Balance
13-05-2020, 09:47 AM
You'd rather that they were on the streets?

Nope but there are far far far better alternatives than spending $1,400 per week!

Meanwhile, what about those whose businesses have been destroyed by the random reckless nature of the lockdown? Not one cent for them - they have to use up their savings or go into more debt.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 09:47 AM
Course he would. Having never walked in their/our (Shock! Horror! Yes, I have been a beneficiary in the past), he has no understanding of what it is like.


You'd rather that they were on the streets?

dobby41
13-05-2020, 09:57 AM
Meanwhile, what about those whose businesses have been destroyed by the random reckless nature of the lockdown? Not one cent for them - they have to use up their savings or go into more debt.

The show isn't over there by any means.
It will be interesting to see what the budget brings.

iceman
13-05-2020, 10:03 AM
Course he would. Having never walked in their/our (Shock! Horror! Yes, I have been a beneficiary in the past), he has no understanding of what it is like.

You should be careful making statements like this. I've met a few ST posters and they have come from all walks of life and worked very hard in many different paths, to get to where they are today, as I am sure you have.

Balance
13-05-2020, 10:08 AM
Course he would. Having never walked in their/our (Shock! Horror! Yes, I have been a beneficiary in the past), he has no understanding of what it is like.

Please comment about the butcher who took his own life.

You have no idea what it is like to be in business - to take on risks, to work hard, look after employees and now, to see a government recklessly and randomly destroying businesses without offering any direct assistance.

Just like Cindy and her incompetents.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 10:10 AM
True, but nobody who has ever been a beneficiary in the past, would talk about them the way Balance does. Those of us who have been there don’t make blanket negative generalisations about beneficiaries as a group of people. We just don’t. So I make no apologies for my comment.


You should be careful making statements like this. I've met a few ST posters and they have come from all walks of life and worked very hard in many different paths, to get to where they are today, as I am sure you have.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 10:12 AM
That has absolutely nothing to do with our comments re beneficiaries.

I have no intention of being drawn into a discussion about the butcher. I think it is disgusting that you are now attempting to use that tragedy for your own agenda. I refuse to be part of it. End of story.


Please comment about the butcher who took his own life.

You have no idea what it is like to be in business - to take on risks, to work hard, look after employees and now, to see a government recklessly and randomly destroying businesses without offering any direct assistance.

Just like Cindy and her incompetents.

dobby41
13-05-2020, 10:14 AM
Please comment about the butcher who took his own life.

You have no idea what it is like to be in business - to take on risks, to work hard, look after employees and now, to see a government recklessly and randomly destroying businesses without offering any direct assistance.

Just like Cindy and her incompetents.

What business experiance has Simon had?
How about Goldsmith?

fungus pudding
13-05-2020, 10:19 AM
True, but nobody who has ever been a beneficiary in the past, would talk about them the way Balance does. Those of us who have been there don’t make blanket negative generalisations about beneficiaries as a group of people. We just don’t. So I make no apologies for my comment.

The only semi-relevant comment that Balance makes that I can see is 'Government has been extremely generous to beneficiaries however', which is hardly a blanket negative statement, and in fact is a comment about the actions of the govt. - not beneficiaries.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 10:41 AM
Yes it is a comment about the government, but he is implying that the financial assistance the government is giving beneficiaries is not “deserved” and would be better spent elsewhere. He would not have made that comment if the recipients of that money were not beneficiaries.




The only semi-relevant comment that Balance makes that I can see is 'Government has been extremely generous to beneficiaries however', which is hardly a blanket negative statement, and in fact is a comment about the actions of the govt. - not beneficiaries.

blackcap
13-05-2020, 10:43 AM
Yes it is a comment about the government, but he is implying that the financial assistance the government is giving beneficiaries is not “deserved” and would be better spent elsewhere. He would not have made that comment if the recipients of that money were not beneficiaries.

The bit I don't get about the beneficiaries getting extra money is that they did not need it. With the changes that were implemented by the government, (the lockdown), beneficiaries were not disadvantaged one iota. However it was those that had business that were disadvantaged. Any extra money should have gone to those disadvantaged by the measures. For beneficiaries nothing really changed.

stoploss
13-05-2020, 10:45 AM
The bit I don't get about the beneficiaries getting extra money is that they did not need it. With the changes that were implemented by the government, (the lockdown), beneficiaries were not disadvantaged one iota. However it was those that had business that were disadvantaged. Any extra money should have gone to those disadvantaged by the measures. For beneficiaries nothing really changed.

I think it was a long term plan , it didn't sit well with Labour that John key was the only one to put the basic benefit up in decades ......

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 12:18 PM
Some families for sure, would have struggled with children out of school - where they may well have been provided with breakfast each day prior to lockdown. When families are already struggling to make ends meet, having extra mouths to feed for even one meal a day, would be significant. Kids at home during the day may well also mean heating needs to be on - parents at home while kids are usually at school, may not put it on just for themselves. Even simple things like more loads of laundry over a week. If you include pensioners in the beneficiary category, they were pretty much confined to home so may well have been buying groceries online or giving family/friends petrol money to shop for them. Again, home all day so more heating needed. I am just guessing here obviously but these would be likely added expenses.

It would have been difficult to target the assistance to only “some” beneficiaries, based on need. Logistically difficult especially given other time pressures right now, so easier to make it an across the board payment to everyone.

The bit I don't get about the beneficiaries getting extra money is that they did not need it. With the changes that were implemented by the government, (the lockdown), beneficiaries were not disadvantaged one iota. However it was those that had business that were disadvantaged. Any extra money should have gone to those disadvantaged by the measures. For beneficiaries nothing really changed.

Balance
13-05-2020, 12:32 PM
The show isn't over there by any means.
It will be interesting to see what the budget brings.

Already too late for the 174 workers laid off by Bunnings as an example.

In Australia, my friend was buying building supplies on the last few weeks to improve his property. Not do in NZ - why?

In NZ, greengrocers are allowed to open but not butchers - why?

Balance
13-05-2020, 12:35 PM
That has absolutely nothing to do with our comments re beneficiaries.

I have no intention of being drawn into a discussion about the butcher. I think it is disgusting that you are now attempting to use that tragedy for your own agenda. I refuse to be part of it. End of story.

Disgusting? More like the truth hurts, doesn’t it?

Fact is that you & Cindy would love to just bask in the glory of containing the virus.

You are not prepared to face the hard facts however that there are going to be deaths and health problems - of the ham-fisted uncaring one-sided support provided by this ‘kind’ government.

jonu
13-05-2020, 12:43 PM
We're meant to trust these cynical incompetents!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121496656/coronavirus-government-tweaks-covid19-level-2-law-after-marae-controversy

They remove the word marae from the clause and then reinsert it in the definition! Finally the Greens have something (mild) to say.

Labour would have had a 2 year expiry on this law if not pulled up by National.

The comments of the Human Rights Commissioner at the end of the article are downright chilling.

fungus pudding
13-05-2020, 12:45 PM
Yes it is a comment about the government, but he is implying that the financial assistance the government is giving beneficiaries is not “deserved” and would be better spent elsewhere. He would not have made that comment if the recipients of that money were not beneficiaries.

You might know what he/she is implying. I don't. Also, once again, not being psychic, I am unable to gauge the truth of your second sentence.

blackcap
13-05-2020, 12:53 PM
We're meant to trust these cynical incompetents!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121496656/coronavirus-government-tweaks-covid19-level-2-law-after-marae-controversy

They remove the word marae from the clause and then reinsert it in the definition! Finally the Greens have something (mild) to say.

Labour would have had a 2 year expiry on this law if not pulled up by National.

The comments of the Human Rights Commissioner at the end of the article are downright chilling.

This bit is damning of the government as far as I am concerned. We are not in this all together it seems and I have withdrawn myself from the "we" part of society because of this and will do my best to thwart this government at any opportunity:

“For weeks the Government has known that we would be moving to alert level 2. It has not allowed enough time for careful public democratic consideration of this level 2 legislation. There has been no input from ordinary New Zealanders which is deeply regrettable,” Hunt said.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 12:55 PM
None of us are able to gauge the “truth” about anything in this discussion. It is all conjecture and opinion. And a complete and utter waste of time and energy.


You might know what he/she is implying. I don't. Also, once again, not being psychic, I am unable to gauge the truth of your second sentence.

Balance
13-05-2020, 12:58 PM
You might know what he/she is implying. I don't. Also, once again, not being psychic, I am unable to gauge the truth of your second sentence.


You'd rather that they were on the streets?

My exact reply was - Nope but there are far far far better alternatives than spending $1,400 per week!

How about leasing any number of venues now available, equip them with furniture and furnishings and house the homeless there? And make sure they help themselves as well - cooking, taking care of the place etc?

Give a man a fish and he is hungry tomorrow. Teach a man how to fish and he will feed himself into the future.

Balance
13-05-2020, 01:04 PM
None of us are able to gauge the “truth” about anything in this discussion. It is all conjecture and opinion. And a complete and utter waste of time and energy.

Yup - now that a businessman had taken his own life, it’s all a bit too inconvenient to discuss the implications of using a ‘hammer to crack a nut’.

There will be much more pain and suffering In the year ahead - thanks to the ham-fisted one sided way Cindy & her incompetents have mishandled the support to the business community, especially the Mom & Dad businesses.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 01:23 PM
Seriously? You actually believe any of this is about freaking glory? :mad ;:

Keep trying to bait me into responding to your comments about the person who died (He was a human being by the way - not an “occupation.”)

This is one subject I am not going to bite on, so don’t waste your time.





Disgusting? More like the truth hurts, doesn’t it?

Fact is that you & Cindy would love to just bask in the glory of containing the virus.

You are not prepared to face the hard facts however that there are going to be deaths and health problems - of the ham-fisted uncaring one-sided support provided by this ‘kind’ government.

dobby41
13-05-2020, 01:24 PM
Already too late for the 174 workers laid off by Bunnings as an example.


You really think those stores were going to stay open if we hadn't had a lockdown?
I heard at least 2 of them were going anyway (TA and Cambridge).

Joshuatree
13-05-2020, 01:33 PM
Balance should really put himself on ignore. Nothing is taboo with this guy not even peoples lives, what a cheap nasty shot.Unacceptable on this decent Website.

Balance
13-05-2020, 01:37 PM
Balance should really put himself on ignore. Nothing is taboo with this guy not even peoples lives, what a cheap nasty shot.Unacceptable on this decent Website.

Why?

I commented about unemployment & joblessness & despair leading to suicides, and the likes of justakiwi simply want to bury their heads in the sand about that reality (let's not talk about it).

Now that it has happened, no one is allowed to mention it?

Exactly how spouse, child and sexual abuse used to happen in the past - relentlessly - until society started talking about it, and doing something to bring the cases down.

Pathetic.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 01:40 PM
More importantly, we should be able to put a mod on ignore, for our own sanity, but currently we are not permitted to do that.


Balance should really put himself on ignore. Nothing is taboo with this guy not even peoples lives, what a cheap nasty shot.Unacceptable on this decent Website.

Balance
13-05-2020, 01:55 PM
None of us are able to gauge the “truth” about anything in this discussion. It is all conjecture and opinion. And a complete and utter waste of time and energy.


And I am deadly serious, having seen the devastating effect of high unemployment during the late 1980s & late 1990s, that this government better have good policies and help in place for the explosion of unemployment to come when the wage subsidy runs out.



No conjecture or opinion on my part above - the explosion of unemployment is going to happen.

Buggered businesses due to the lack of any direct government help are not going to be around to employ those who are on wage subsidy life support.

jonu
13-05-2020, 01:56 PM
Balance should really put himself on ignore. Nothing is taboo with this guy not even peoples lives, what a cheap nasty shot.Unacceptable on this decent Website.

One of the glaring inconsistencies of Level 4 was butchers being unable to open, yet a butchers at a supermarket could.

It is horrible that this has happened. It is tragic beyond belief for the young family left behind. It is also not something that should be swept under the carpet for political expedience.

I and many others have been saying there has to be more than one way to measure the success or otherwise of combatting Covid-19, other than just case numbers. That there would be down stream costs to come from different measures being imposed.

The tragic end to this man's life and reasons leading to that should absolutely be examined, not for points scoring, but to ensure we don't face more of it.

dobby41
13-05-2020, 02:06 PM
The tragic end to this man's life and reasons leading to that should absolutely be examined, not for points scoring, but to ensure we don't face more of it.

Would be interesting - I thought that the Mad Butchers were already in trouble for a while?
A lot of stuff will be 'blamed' on the Govts response by those who want to put it there.

Joshuatree
13-05-2020, 02:11 PM
Why?

I commented about unemployment & joblessness & despair leading to suicides, and the likes of justakiwi simply want to bury their heads in the sand about that reality (let's not talk about it).

Now that it has happened, no one is allowed to mention it?

Exactly how spouse, child and sexual abuse used to happen in the past - relentlessly - until society started talking about it, and doing something to bring the cases down.

Pathetic.

You are a complete embarrassment to this website and country.narcissistic behaviour in extreme.

Why does balance not learn from his mistakes? Because he doesnt make any(in his mind he is a god).

Balance
13-05-2020, 02:13 PM
Would be interesting - I thought that the Mad Butchers were already in trouble for a while?
A lot of stuff will be 'blamed' on the Govts response by those who want to put it there.

Only some of the Mad Butchers stores.

For example, the one close to us closed last year and then, re-opened 6 months' later under new owners who proceeded to change its offering with a greater range of products and at better prices.

Mad Butcher stores in the 'poorer' areas have traditionally done well. It was when the stores expanded to more affluent suburbs that those stores ran into trouble.

blackcap
13-05-2020, 02:16 PM
You are a complete embarrassment to this website and country.narcissistic behaviour in extreme.

Why does balance not learn from his mistakes? Because he doesnt make any(in his mind he is a god).

Not at all. Balance to his credit is exercising his right to free speech and open debate. I enjoy his views whether I agree with them or not and we disagree on a lot. There is a saying "sunlight is the best disinfectant". Balance's and others views are the sunlight. There are some real evil (my view) free speech deniers on this website that would rather issues are not aired in the name of kindness and feelings. Well bugger that go somewhere else if you do not like it.

jonu
13-05-2020, 02:17 PM
Would be interesting - I thought that the Mad Butchers were already in trouble for a while?
A lot of stuff will be 'blamed' on the Govts response by those who want to put it there.

Do you mean stuff like not being able to operate your business for 6 weeks while your competitor could? That kind of stuff?

Balance
13-05-2020, 02:18 PM
One of the glaring inconsistencies of Level 4 was butchers being unable to open, yet a butchers at a supermarket could.

It is horrible that this has happened. It is tragic beyond belief for the young family left behind. It is also not something that should be swept under the carpet for political expedience.

I and many others have been saying there has to be more than one way to measure the success or otherwise of combatting Covid-19, other than just case numbers. That there would be down stream costs to come from different measures being imposed.

The tragic end to this man's life and reasons leading to that should absolutely be examined, not for points scoring, but to ensure we don't face more of it.

Don't forget about dairies and green groceries being allowed to open, while butchers are not.

Thanks for putting the tragic and horrible death in perspective - Cindy & her bunch of incompetents better have something robust in place to handle the explosion of unemployments to come.

Balance
13-05-2020, 02:26 PM
Do you mean stuff like not being able to operate your business for 6 weeks while your competitor could? That kind of stuff?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/04/labour-mp-deborah-russell-facing-backlash-over-tone-deaf-offensive-remarks-on-small-businesses.html

Try making sense of the repugnant views of Deborah Russell Labour MP (revealing for all, Cindy's government view as well) that it was the fault of SMEs (Mum & Dad businesses)- they were ill-prepared financially to cope with the lockdown.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

Well, this is the reality as articulated by the late Roy Green :

"The shop had been turning over $92,000 per week prior to the lockdown but was making no money in level 4, TVNZ reported.

"The money I do have in the bank is all going for outgoings at the moment ... it's a tough struggle," Green said.

The stress of trying to pay everyone was "ridiculous", he said.

"I spend nights awake in bed, some nights I've sat there crying, wondering what I'm gonna do next."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Imagine watching his life savings disappear, with zero direct help from the government who took away ALL of his revenues.

Question : So who really has been uncaring & heartless? Or has not got a clue about what running a business entails?

Then, we have the Health Minister breached lockdown 3 times because he is so much better than everyone else, instead of doing his job.

I am going to go for a walk to cool down - my blood is boiling at the callousness of this government and its ivory tower MPs and ministers.

justakiwi
13-05-2020, 02:33 PM
If, by some chance, you are including me in this category, you clearly do not understand what kind of human being I am, or the sentiment behind some of my posts/comments. I am not a free speech denier by any means. I exercise my right to free speech here often. I am kind and I am pretty connected to my “feelings” but neither of those are bad things.

I have discussed all manner of issues here, including mental health related issues. Just so you know, I have never claimed that the current economic situation won’t have a negative effect on some people, or that some people may struggle with their mental health. I am also fully aware that some suicides from here on out, may have been triggered by economic/financial stress. I am not stupid. But, I am not going to engage in conversations here, about suicide, that are being used to support a particular agenda. This discussion here is no longer simply a “discussion.” It has become something more, and I for one, don’t like what it has become. And yes, I have contributed to the general discussion. I will not however participate in Balance’s discussion of the poor soul who lost his life. It is disrespectful and inappropriate for Balance to use this man’s death as ammunition or supposed proof, that his “theory” is correct.

So, if you were including me in your condemnation of “evil” free speech deniers, you have me 100% wrong.


There are some real evil (my view) free speech deniers on this website that would rather issues are not aired in the name of kindness and feelings. Well bugger that go somewhere else if you do not like it.