PDA

View Full Version : Labour / NZ First Government



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 [17] 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

dobby41
13-05-2020, 02:44 PM
Do you mean stuff like not being able to operate your business for 6 weeks while your competitor could? That kind of stuff?

No, I was thinking about the failure of the store and subsequent suicide.

Joshuatree
13-05-2020, 02:45 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/04/labour-mp-deborah-russell-facing-backlash-over-tone-deaf-offensive-remarks-on-small-businesses.html

Try making sense of the repugnant views of Deborah Russell Labour MP (revealing for all, Cindy's government view as well) that it was the fault of SMEs (Mum & Dad businesses)- they were ill-prepared financially to cope with the lockdown.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

Well, this is the reality as articulated by the late Roy Green :

"The shop had been turning over $92,000 per week prior to the lockdown but was making no money in level 4, TVNZ reported.

"The money I do have in the bank is all going for outgoings at the moment ... it's a tough struggle," Green said.

The stress of trying to pay everyone was "ridiculous", he said.

"I spend nights awake in bed, some nights I've sat there crying, wondering what I'm gonna do next."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Imagine watching his life savings disappear, with zero direct help from the government who took away ALL of his revenues.

Question : So who really has been uncaring & heartless? Or has not got a clue about what running a business entails?

Then, we have the Health Minister breached lockdown 3 times because he is so much better than everyone else, instead of doing his job.

I am going to go for a walk to cool down - my blood is boiling at the callousness of this government and its ivory tower MPs and ministers.

You keep walking bud and MAINTAIN 2 METRES!!!


So far THE FACTS, unprecedented!

Nearly $12 billion Wage subsidy scheme

Tax Refund Scheme

SmallBusiness cashflow loan scheme
over 6,000 Applicationsin the first few hours

$6.25 billion business finance guarantee scheme

RBNZ nearly doubles quantitative easing programme to $60 billion; Reaffirms forward guidance to keep OCR at 0.25%, but specifically says it's prepared to reduce the OCR further

Specialist ministerial Infrastructure group looking at projects ready to go etc etc etc

The budget to follow with lots more.

macduffy
13-05-2020, 03:53 PM
I think It's about time we closed this particular line of "discussion" - before Vince does it for us.
:mellow:

fungus pudding
13-05-2020, 04:23 PM
My exact reply was - Nope but there are far far far better alternatives than spending $1,400 per week!

How about leasing any number of venues now available, equip them with furniture and furnishings and house the homeless there? And make sure they help themselves as well - cooking, taking care of the place etc?

Give a man a fish and he is hungry tomorrow. Teach a man how to fish and he will feed himself into the future.

Or to quote Reinstein, 'Build a man a fire and warm him for a day. Set a man alight, and warm him for life'.

Balance
13-05-2020, 05:34 PM
Ok, let's see what kind of help the 'facts' work for someone like Roy Green who had his revenues cut to zero, overnight :


You keep walking bud and MAINTAIN 2 METRES!!!


So far THE FACTS, unprecedented!

Nearly $12 billion Wage subsidy scheme Employees benefit up to $585 per week but he still had to pay & top up the difference out of his bank savings

Tax Refund Scheme Of zero help until end of financial year

SmallBusiness cashflow loan scheme
over 6,000 Applicationsin the first few hours Available only from 12 May - 7 weeks after Roy's business had been bleeding losses, destroying the savings he had in the bank

$6.25 billion business finance guarantee scheme Trading banks did not support the scheme - only $23m was lent. Know why? Conditions were so onerously anti-banking on the banks they did not want to know.

RBNZ nearly doubles quantitative easing programme to $60 billion; Reaffirms forward guidance to keep OCR at 0.25%, but specifically says it's prepared to reduce the OCR further

Specialist ministerial Infrastructure group looking at projects ready to go etc etc etc

The budget to follow with lots more.

So tell us, JT - what help has Cindy & her bunch of incompetents extended to Roy Green who had his revenues wiped out to zero?

Not a cent in direct support! Instead, he had to run down his precious savings to pay wages, outgoings and his family expenses.

But for beneficiaries who actually do not need additional support, $2.8b in assistance to those receiving benefits, via a $25 per week increase in core benefits from 1 April and a doubling of the winter energy payment. Why?

BlackPeter
14-05-2020, 07:12 AM
Ok, let's see what kind of help the 'facts' work for someone like Roy Green who had his revenues cut to zero, overnight :



So tell us, JT - what help has Cindy & her bunch of incompetents extended to Roy Green who had his revenues wiped out to zero?

Not a cent in direct support! Instead, he had to run down his precious savings to pay wages, outgoings and his family expenses.

But for beneficiaries who actually do not need additional support, $2.8b in assistance to those receiving benefits, via a $25 per week increase in core benefits from 1 April and a doubling of the winter energy payment. Why?

I think that is an interesting question ... and I am keen to get an honest answer from one of the resident Labour supporters.

While I think that the government did a lot of good moves during the recent crisis to keep us healthy - they clearly prioritize their voters over the rest of the economy. Beneficiaries, state employees and unionized labor (typically working in large companies) are where the money goes - and the rest of the population might get (if they are lucky) the crumbs which are falling off the table. Pretty sure however, that they will stand in the front line when the bill is dished out for the meal.

The crisis was an amazing opportunity for Labor to pop up benefits for the less performing part of the population without the fear of scrutiny, while the people running SME's would not be typical Labour clients. Well, I guess this will teach them a lesson.

Not saying though that National would have acted with less bias - just towards some other groups. They are all just human, aren't they?

westerly
14-05-2020, 08:43 AM
I think that is an interesting question ... and I am keen to get an honest answer from one of the resident Labour supporters.

While I think that the government did a lot of good moves during the recent crisis to keep us healthy - they clearly prioritize their voters over the rest of the economy. Beneficiaries, state employees and unionized labor (typically working in large companies) are where the money goes - and the rest of the population might get (if they are lucky) the crumbs which are falling off the table. Pretty sure however, that they will stand in the front line when the bill is dished out for the meal.

The crisis was an amazing opportunity for Labor to pop up benefits for the less performing part of the population without the fear of scrutiny, while the people running SME's would not be typical Labour clients. Well, I guess this will teach them a lesson.

Not saying though that National would have acted with less bias - just towards some other groups. They are all just human, aren't they?

As far as superanuitants go, with out means testing it would be impossible to assist those dependant on super for income. Means testing would bring screams of protest from the "I have paid my taxes brigade and would be political suicide. Not sure how working for large companies (Sky City, Bunnings, or the German owned magazine publisher) helps. As for the less perfoming part of the population do you include sharetraders. ?

westerly

iceman
14-05-2020, 08:54 AM
But for beneficiaries who actually do not need additional support, $2.8b in assistance to those receiving benefits, via a $25 per week increase in core benefits from 1 April and a doubling of the winter energy payment. Why? [/COLOR]

Because Jacinda and Winnie agreed on this when this most transparent of Governments negotiated their secret & unpublished coalition agreement. Jacinda got money for the beneficiaries and Winnie got winter energy payment for the oldies, many of whom vote for him. Nothing to do with COVID of course. Unlike the $70m Winnie got for the horseracing industry once again last week. They must have been his priority concern from COVID

fungus pudding
14-05-2020, 09:05 AM
Because Jacinda and Winnie agreed on this when this most transparent of Governments negotiated their secret & unpublished coalition agreement. Jacinda got money for the beneficiaries and Winnie got winter energy payment for the oldies, many of whom vote for him. Nothing to do with COVID of course. Unlike the $70m Winnie got for the horseracing industry once again last week. They must have been his priority concern from COVID

'Winter energy payment' is a misnomer. The payment is simply a superannuation booster. Recipients are at liberty to spend it on call-girls, at the local casino, donate it to charity, or spend it at their local watering-holes. I very much doubt that many will run their heaters longer because of it.

dobby41
14-05-2020, 09:12 AM
Because Jacinda and Winnie agreed on this when this most transparent of Governments negotiated their secret & unpublished coalition agreement. Jacinda got money for the beneficiaries and Winnie got winter energy payment for the oldies, many of whom vote for him. Nothing to do with COVID of course. Unlike the $70m Winnie got for the horseracing industry once again last week. They must have been his priority concern from COVID

That's an impressive stretch even for you.
A question on the covid $25/week and the doubling of the energy payment this year is related to an agreement between Labout and NZ1st 3 years ago - they had such foresight.

jonu
14-05-2020, 09:43 AM
Well apparently Light Rail won't be one of Labour's "shovel ready" projects. Even though it's meant to be half built by now. Quietly being buried by the looks.

The photo in the linked article must be a tad embarrassing for Twyford and Goff

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300011411/government-puts-light-rail-on-hold

Balance
14-05-2020, 10:24 AM
I think that is an interesting question ... and I am keen to get an honest answer from one of the resident Labour supporters.

Don’t hold your breath, BP.

Comprehensively debunked - the so-called financial help to the business sector, especially to the Mom & Dad SMEs. Not one cent in direct assistance to help them.

It’s all about votes - nothing to do with good sound economic policies of helping businesses to preserve jobs.

This is a government unashamedly using the Covid-19 cover & fiscal spend-up to buy & build up its voters base, using tens of billions of dollars of taxpayers’ funds and debts.

Cindy is as grubby a politician as they come - open, transparent, caring, kind - words used cynically by her to project an image which hides her grubbiness. 👎🏻

greater fool
14-05-2020, 12:37 PM
Well apparently Light Rail won't be one of Labour's "shovel ready" projects. Even though it's meant to be half built by now. Quietly being buried by the looks.

The photo in the linked article must be a tad embarrassing for Twyford and Goff

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300011411/government-puts-light-rail-on-hold

Why embarrassing?
The background poster shows the photo-op is for CRL. That's Heavy Rail, and absolutely
nothing to do with the ridiculous light rail fantasy project. Lets it's properly dead this time.
Be more discriminating in your reading of the shallow main stream media, apparently also unable to
tell the difference between the projects.

jonu
14-05-2020, 12:50 PM
Why embarrassing?
The background poster shows the photo-op is for CRL. That's Heavy Rail, and absolutely
nothing to do with the ridiculous light rail fantasy project. Lets it's properly dead this time.
Be more discriminating in your reading of the shallow main stream media, apparently also unable to
tell the difference between the projects.

Fair play....I didn't pick up the difference between the two. The Light Rail cockup still stands.

greater fool
14-05-2020, 01:16 PM
Fair play....I didn't pick up the difference between the two. The Light Rail cockup still stands.

Agreed, a dog turd. CRL is a big enough cockup; Billions over budget, years behind schedule, and will never deliver the promises made.
No worries, the ratepayers and taxpayers have bottomless pockets, those pictured, proud parents can say 'look what I did', while health,
education and environment crumble due to Austerity, the post 15 August 1971, new, western democratic world order.

https://www.thebalance.com/bretton-woods-system-and-1944-agreement-3306133

https://voxeu.org/article/operation-and-demise-bretton-woods-system

Balance
14-05-2020, 02:15 PM
More wage subsidy?

Where’s the help for SMEs? Where’s the kindness and care for Mum and Dad businesses?

As unimaginative and uninspiring budget from Cindy & her bunch of incompetents as any country is unfortunate to get.

Well, she is welcome to the colossal problems (much self- inflicted) of the country and economy for the next 3 years.

The tragic part is that the youth of today and future generations are going to carry the debt & mismanagement burden for decades to come.

justakiwi
14-05-2020, 02:22 PM
I’ve been sitting here waiting for you to show up and post your “unimaginative and uninspiring” post budget rant. You did not disappoint :t_up:


More wage subsidy?

As unimaginative and uninspiring budget from Cindy & her bunch of incompetents as any country is unfortunate to get.

Well, she is welcome to the colossal problems (much self- inflicted) of the country and economy for the next 3 years.

The tragic part is that the youth of today and future generations are going to carry the debt & mismanagement burden for decades to come.

Balance
14-05-2020, 02:28 PM
I’ve been sitting here waiting for you to show up and post your “unimaginative and uninspiring” post budget rant. You did not disappoint :t_up:

So where’s the help for the Mom & Dad businesses like the late Roy Green’s business?

This government has the audacity to talk about kindness & care when Cindy & her incompetents are forcing businesses to the wall.

fungus pudding
14-05-2020, 02:37 PM
I’ve been sitting here waiting for you to show up and post your “unimaginative and uninspiring” post budget rant. You did not disappoint :t_up:

Yes. He should have called it skimpy, lacking and incomplete. We will learn more much more about it in the next few days than we learnt today..

BlackPeter
14-05-2020, 03:34 PM
As far as superanuitants go, with out means testing it would be impossible to assist those dependant on super for income. Means testing would bring screams of protest from the "I have paid my taxes brigade and would be political suicide. Not sure how working for large companies (Sky City, Bunnings, or the German owned magazine publisher) helps. As for the less perfoming part of the population do you include sharetraders. ?

westerly

How does it help to work for big companies? Well, Labor is looking after them, aren't they? Just look at AIR - a huge bunch of corporate bludgers with outrageous salaries and Labor is happy to keep them troughing their big salaries instead of letting them go bust and allowing them to restart a smaller but healthy company with appropriate salaries. Out taxes are funding at the moment 14 posts at AIR with salaries above one million dollar pa and countless jobs with salaries above $250k pa. They don't need most of these roles anymore (given the reduced traffic) and the rest is ways overpaid for a small airline. How is this fair and just?

Obviously - the suffering of the poor butcher didn't interest anybody in Labor. Better pay the pigs at the AIR trough.

Related to your question re the "less performing part of the population" ... well I can't speak for share traders, but in general I am referring to people who expect others to pay for their upkeep despite being grown up and healthy. Not sure whether there are a lot of successful share traders who would do that.

Balance
14-05-2020, 04:45 PM
How does it help to work for big companies? Well, Labor is looking after them, aren't they? Just look at AIR - a huge bunch of corporate bludgers with outrageous salaries and Labor is happy to keep them troughing their big salaries instead of letting them go bust and allowing them to restart a smaller but healthy company with appropriate salaries. Out taxes are funding at the moment 14 posts at AIR with salaries above one million dollar pa and countless jobs with salaries above $250k pa. They don't need most of these roles anymore (given the reduced traffic) and the rest is ways overpaid for a small airline. How is this fair and just?

Obviously - the suffering of the poor butcher didn't interest anybody in Labor. Better pay the pigs at the AIR trough.


I think you are railing at the wrong company in Air NZ, BP.

It is a public listed company which has contributed billions of dollars in taxes, direct and indirect, and dividends to NZ since it was effectively 'privatized' at bargain basement price of 27c ps or $850m in 2000.

Since that time, NZ government has received $1.453 billion in dividends, sold down 20% back to the public for $365m in 2013, and currently holds 52% worth $583m.

And the current bailout is a loan which has to be repaid.

jonu
14-05-2020, 05:29 PM
Well now that the dust is settling on moving to level 2, I'd like to hear from some Cindy supporters on just why her government wanted to impose a 2 year Police State on NZ. This was a calculated move. They could have opted for 3,6,12,18 months or anywhere in between. They went for 2 years until they suddenly decided 3 months was OK after National pulled them up.

Or we could also ask for response on why funerals are suddenly OK at 50 people, when a day before they were only safe at 10. I'm pleased they have made the adjustment, but they did so under political pressure, not medical advice. How many other Level restrictions would they have caved into if the political cost was high enough? Not financial cost, political cost!

I never thought I would see the NZ political system so abused and cynically manipulated to erode our Human Rights in my lifetime. I'm genuinely frightened for our democracy.

Balance
14-05-2020, 05:42 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/121515592/the-2020-budget-is-failing-new-zealands-tourism-industry

Our biggest export earner gets $400m and nothing of direct assistance in the budget for the now all important agricultural sector.

Balance
14-05-2020, 06:49 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/416663/bryce-edwards-a-budget-with-big-numbers-but-little-vision

For the billions of dollars being dished out, no plan and no vision.

Joshuatree
14-05-2020, 07:14 PM
What an incredible rainy day budget, so thankful our finance minister was very prudent in the last two years.Now its all go with a massive budget covering so many areas.Cant satisfy everyone though ehh like dentists and midwives unfort but wow does it cover our economy, businesses, beneficiaries( and we know where there extra will go straight back into all thebusinesses opening up win/win.., the environment, Apprentices even , fantastic, housing, surf life saving even fab etc etc etc etc. Luckily the super low int on these spends adds up to similar amounts on alot less spending in earlier budgets.

Too many to list but with re 400,000 businesses in NZ many will now survive some wont and new businesses will be born. As for Unbalanced suggesting the govt pick out businesses here and there and throw funds at them will you can work it out. Whats that saying of benefit to no one"the only ones more demanding then a beneficiary demanding a handout is a business,". imagine 400,000 hands out, if you give to one everyone else wants it too. Seems like balance has no concept of reflection of ones behaviour and correcting it.These sort of people are the scary ones on our society as they justify wrong thinkings and wrongdoings.

This covid may be around a long time and i think its a big mistake giving the police only 3 months as is increasing funeral numbers to 50. I guarantee people will be hugging and kissing and hongiing as we know its a very emotional time and we are human after all and will justify these risky actions. We know big clusters happen around drinking and bars and funerals for two.

Just hope like hell this doesnt add to a bigger 2nd wave leading to a depression! Its weird, i really support/ed the road blocks to protect folks in remote areas, having bigger funerals does just the opposite. Its like its chocks away covid, covid what?! The associate health minister gave an example of that outbreak re 1917 when a family were warned but insisted on taking the body home, they then opened up the coffin and the result all his ancestors there died from the contagion.

Section 71a of the Health act. a constable can enter any building or private home for any of a full suite of powers. This has been around a long time.

Clause 20 of this new bill is narrower. a warrantless power of entry into a private dwelling under covid 19 is limited in effect to breaking up parties flouting the rules around gathering size.

This enforcement power is intended to limit contagion risks and enable effective track and tracing if theres an outbreak to get under control says David P.arker. Once again its like, its over lets go back to how it was before.Unbelievable, chocks away.
2nd wave, economy destruction.Depression anyone. Hope like hell we get through this.It may be many years , a vaccine may not even be found. Good luck everyone we are going to need it, this budget gives us a very good chance to get through this coming global recession but adapt and change we must.

Balance
14-05-2020, 08:13 PM
What an incredible rainy day budget, so thankful our finance minister was very prudent in the last two years.Now its all go with a massive budget covering so many areas.Cant satisfy everyone though ehh like dentists and midwives unfort but wow does it cover our economy, businesses, beneficiaries( and we know where there extra will go straight back into all thebusinesses opening up win/win.., the environment, Apprentices even , fantastic, housing, surf life saving even fab etc etc etc etc. Luckily the super low int on these spends adds up to similar amounts on alot less spending in earlier budgets.

Too many to list but with re 400,000 businesses in NZ many will now survive some wont and new businesses will be born. As for Unbalanced suggesting the govt pick out businesses here and there and throw funds at them will you can work it out. Whats that saying of benefit to no one"the only ones more demanding then a beneficiary demanding a handout is a business,". imagine 400,000 hands out, if you give to one everyone else wants it too. Seems like balance has no concept of reflection of ones behaviour and correcting it.These sort of people are the scary ones on our society as they justify wrong thinkings and wrongdoings.

This covid may be around a long time and i think its a big mistake giving the police only 3 months as is increasing funeral numbers to 50. I guarantee people will be hugging and kissing and hongiing as we know its a very emotional time and we are human after all and will justify these risky actions. We know big clusters happen around drinking and bars and funerals for two.

Just hope like hell this doesnt add to a bigger 2nd wave leading to a depression! Its weird, i really support/ed the road blocks to protect folks in remote areas, having bigger funerals does just the opposite. Its like its chocks away covid, covid what?! The associate health minister gave an example of that outbreak re 1917 when a family were warned but insisted on taking the body home, they then opened up the coffin and the result all his ancestors there died from the contagion.

Section 71a of the Health act. a constable can enter any building or private home for any of a full suite of powers. This has been around a long time.

Clause 20 of this new bill is narrower. a warrantless power of entry into a private dwelling under covid 19 is limited in effect to breaking up parties flouting the rules around gathering size.

This enforcement power is intended to limit contagion risks and enable effective track and tracing if theres an outbreak to get under control says David P.arker. Once again its like, its over lets go back to how it was before.Unbelievable, chocks away.
2nd wave, economy destruction.Depression anyone. Hope like hell we get through this.It may be many years , a vaccine may not even be found. Good luck everyone we are going to need it, this budget gives us a very good chance to get through this coming global recession but adapt and change we must.

Forget about 400,000 - how about just this one?

Still waiting for your reply, JT : What help did Cindy & her incompetents gave Roy Green after they stopped him from operating his butchery and deprived him of ALL OF HIS REVENUES?


You keep walking bud and MAINTAIN 2 METRES!!!


So far THE FACTS, unprecedented!

Nearly $12 billion Wage subsidy scheme Employees benefit up to $585 per week but he still had to pay & top up the difference out of his bank savings

Tax Refund Scheme Of zero help until end of financial year

SmallBusiness cashflow loan scheme
over 6,000 Applicationsin the first few hours Available only from 12 May - 7 weeks after Roy's business had been bleeding losses, destroying the savings he had in the bank

$6.25 billion business finance guarantee scheme Trading banks did not support the scheme - only $23m was lent. Know why? Conditions were so onerously anti-banking on the banks they did not want to know.

RBNZ nearly doubles quantitative easing programme to $60 billion; Reaffirms forward guidance to keep OCR at 0.25%, but specifically says it's prepared to reduce the OCR further

Specialist ministerial Infrastructure group looking at projects ready to go etc etc etc

The budget to follow with lots more.

So tell us, JT - what help has Cindy & her bunch of incompetents extended to Roy Green who had his revenues wiped out to zero?

Not a cent in direct support! Instead, he had to run down his precious savings to pay wages, outgoings and his family expenses.

But for beneficiaries who actually do not need additional support, $2.8b in assistance to those receiving benefits, via a $25 per week increase in core benefits from 1 April and a doubling of the winter energy payment. Why?

nztx
14-05-2020, 08:33 PM
Still waiting for your reply, JT : What help did Cindy & her incompetents gave Roy Green after they stopped him from operating his butchery and deprived him of ALL OF HIS REVENUES?



So tell us, JT - what help has Cindy & her bunch of incompetents extended to Roy Green who had his revenues wiped out to zero?

Not a cent in direct support! Instead, he had to run down his precious savings to pay wages, outgoings and his family expenses.

But for beneficiaries who actually do not need additional support, $2.8b in assistance to those receiving benefits, via a $25 per week increase in core benefits from 1 April and a doubling of the winter energy payment. Why?


That is exactly the way I see it & the Labour Government HASN'T looked after Business as well !

What they have done is extend the free Govt grant for Employees further via the Employers on higher threshold revenue reduction - that does nothing for paying other business overheads or to ensure continuity in reduced / affected post C-19 markets

This is a non event Budget which has missed the Wood for the Trees .. where are the new jobs coming from ??

Where is the definitive future plan, if there is one ? - aside from more than likely landing the whole incompetently executed economic shambles, large debt & blackened remnants into the laps of the next lot of unfortunates to have to tidy up ..

Expect more closures, redundancies, unemployed .. as the Subsidy edges closer towards the election..

Labour could be damned if they do or damned if they dont .. the closer towards September that their orchestrated economic abortion slides into second half, as more damage occurs..


There may be some consolation in only $15 B of the $50 B has been used - leaving the further $35 B which may need to be allocated from the Large Slush Fund to get Socialist Cindy's & Fumbling Robertson's spinning butts out of the line of heavier direct fire in near future

Balance
14-05-2020, 08:43 PM
That is exactly the way I see it & the Labour Government HASN'T looked after Business as well !

What they have done is extend the free Govt grant for Employees further via the Employers on higher threshold rebenue reduction - that does nothing for paying other business overheads or to ensure continuity in reduced / affected post C-19 markets
Expect more closures, redundancies, unemployed .. as the Subsidy edges closer towards the election..

.

"Wage Subsidy Extension announced- The Wage Subsidy Extension will be available from 10 June 2020 until 1 September 2020."

So very very convenient for Cindy & her incompetents - stretch the wage subsidy through to September and the election.

As grubby as they come - that's Cindy the PM.

value_investor
14-05-2020, 09:20 PM
Agree its not the best budget, was really hoping for a plan in motion but I'm not even sure what that looks like. We are just kicking the can further down the road here with this. Nothing really coherent came out of it at all imo. The wage subsidy just buys time here.

The opposition have been quick to criticise the budget but I've not seen any great alternatives being offered here by them. Bridges had the serve there to deliver some sort of shadow budget and show the govt of the day what they would do but nothing offered.

Both sides of the coin not really offering anything here.

fungus pudding
14-05-2020, 09:31 PM
What an incredible rainy day budget, so thankful our finance minister was very prudent in the last two years.

At least he had the good grace to acknowledge Bill English when speaking of NZ's healthy position.

Panda-NZ-
14-05-2020, 10:01 PM
At least he had the good grace to acknowledge Bill English when speaking of NZ's healthy position.

Cullen did more but Bill wasn't bad. Some criticising the debt overlook the fact that national doubled it and show their own hypocrisy. The debate is a bit superficial since the RBNZ owns a large portion of it. It's good in either case to recover quickly and in the best position in international terms.

Joshuatree
14-05-2020, 10:26 PM
Forget about 400,000 - how about just this one?

Still waiting for your reply, JT : What help did Cindy & her incompetents gave Roy Green after they stopped him from operating his butchery and deprived him of ALL OF HIS REVENUES?

https://www.facebook.com/thespinofftv/videos/526085754706521/?t=1



So tell us, JT - what help has Cindy & her bunch of incompetents extended to Roy Green who had his revenues wiped out to zero?

Not a cent in direct support! Instead, he had to run down his precious savings to pay wages, outgoings and his family expenses.

But for beneficiaries who actually do not need additional support, $2.8b in assistance to those receiving benefits, via a $25 per week increase in core benefits from 1 April and a doubling of the winter energy payment. Why?

What have you contributed , did you start a give a little page? You have stooped as low as someone can go using someones passing to suit your agenda, its sickening but its obvious you have no understanding that this is wrong and unacceptable behaviour.

And just one more very dated beneficiary bashing as if they are some sort of inferior beings who deserve nothing. This is old school redneck stuff and often involves sexism , racism etc coming from self entitled egomaniacs with superiority complexes who dont have the decency to be civil and who are never wrong so can never learn and grow themselves but go off like volcanoes in a constant reactive state rather than an informed response. Behaviours can be changed , fundamentally im hoping you are not that person.

Covid has brought mayhem to this world, there are alot of casualties and unprecedented response from govts around the world.Pleased to see the huge funding go to health we are going to need it, alot of people need help, take care .

Panda-NZ-
15-05-2020, 04:28 AM
Balance will have a heart attack when he realises australia has "double" their usual welfare. The UK and Canada are paying a salary which will be withdrawn if not either extended or tapered will cause an economic collapse for them if not done well.

Once a vaccine is forthcoming a plan based on what the environment will be in 12 months time. It's somewhat risky for any grand ideas atm.

Balance
15-05-2020, 06:25 AM
What have you contributed , did you start a give a little page? You have stooped as low as someone can go using someones passing to suit your agenda, its sickening but its obvious you have no understanding that this is wrong and unacceptable behaviour.
.

A man has taken his own life - he lost his livelihood & purpose in life due to the lockdown.

He received zero help from the government - in fact, he had to watch others do business while he was prevented from doing so.

You, JT, asserted the government did plenty to help.

So what and where was the help?

Don’t try to duck and dive around the issue - where was the help?

Yours is the totally unacceptable immoral & repugnant behaviour of trying to hide the truth and cover up what happened.

Shame on you. 👎🏻

Panda-NZ-
15-05-2020, 06:31 AM
A man has taken his own life - he lost his livelihood & purpose in life due to the lockdown.



The NZ herald article made it clear there were other issues involved. shame on you for using a family's health issues to hit percieved opponents. Mental illness are long term not circumstantial and affects all income groups.

iceman
15-05-2020, 06:40 AM
That's an impressive stretch even for you.
A question on the covid $25/week and the doubling of the energy payment this year is related to an agreement between Labout and NZ1st 3 years ago - they had such foresight.

Doesn't match your stretch to say pre-election lollies for beneficiaries and retired folk is related to COVID, the 2 least affected groups of people (generally) in the country.
The secret Coalition agreement didn't just cover the start of the term did it ? It surely also covers years 2 & 3. 100% increase in the so called winter energy payment is all to do with Winston trying to secure his votes and nothing to do with COVID. A long stretch indeed

Balance
15-05-2020, 06:41 AM
The NZ herald article made it clear there were other issues involved. shame on you for using a family's health issues to hit percieved opponents. Mental illness are long term not circumstantial and affects all income groups.

Straw that broke the camel’s back.

Would not expect you to understand that however as only an ignorant person would write about the Mad Butcher as a franchise to be unsuited for migrants. Roy Green is not a migrant - he was a NZer.

What an insult to him and his family.

Shame on you.

blackcap
15-05-2020, 06:49 AM
The NZ herald article made it clear there were other issues involved. shame on you for using a family's health issues to hit percieved opponents. Mental illness are long term not circumstantial and affects all income groups.

No, but it may well have been the issue that tipped him over the edge. How troubling for the struggling mind, when a butcher in a supermarket is allowed to open, dairies are allowed to open, but your own butcher shop is not allowed to open.
I always wondered why this inconsistency was around. Call me suspicious but it would not surprise me if the nasty Vegan/Vege anti meat crowd in Labour and the Greens had something to do with this.

Balance
15-05-2020, 07:09 AM
No, but it may well have been the issue that tipped him over the edge. How troubling for the struggling mind, when a butcher in a supermarket is allowed to open, dairies are allowed to open, but your own butcher shop is not allowed to open.
I always wondered why this inconsistency was around. Call me suspicious but it would not surprise me if the nasty Vegan/Vege anti meat crowd in Labour and the Greens had something to do with this.

So clear that the Labourites here are trying to sweep this issue (of no help for SME businesses and inconsistent lockdown rules) under the carpet and hide it from public scrutiny.

Anything but answer the question* of how and what direct help have been given to the likes of the late Roy Green.

• - their assertion, not mine. Jt's example :

So far THE FACTS, unprecedented!

Nearly $12 billion Wage subsidy scheme

Tax Refund Scheme

Small Business cashflow loan scheme over 6,000 Applicationsin the first few hours

$6.25 billion business finance guarantee scheme

Result? Not a cent of direct help for the late Roy Green or any other Mom and Dad businesses.

fungus pudding
15-05-2020, 08:56 AM
No, but it may well have been the issue that tipped him over the edge. How troubling for the struggling mind, when a butcher in a supermarket is allowed to open, dairies are allowed to open, but your own butcher shop is not allowed to open.
I always wondered why this inconsistency was around. Call me suspicious but it would not surprise me if the nasty Vegan/Vege anti meat crowd in Labour and the Greens had something to do with this.

Okay. You're suspicious, and your anti meat crowd theory is plainly stupid, which I don't need to tell you because you know it is.:blink:

mikeybycrikey
15-05-2020, 02:37 PM
I keep checking in here to see if the anger has subsided here. Nope.

I'm guessing the anger won't subside until the government has gone from the Red party to the Blue party. And somehow by magic Roy Green would've died under Labour but not under National, despite his company getting $95,000 from the government.

But this isn't good enough because somehow "Not a cent of direct help" has gone to the business, apparently. If the goalposts are changed so that money going to the business isn't accepted as being direct help then how is anyone supposed to argue with that?

This is a truly sad story but constantly coming back to "Cindy and her incompetents" isn't really convincing me that the problem is anything other than the government being from the wrong party.

jonu
15-05-2020, 02:47 PM
I keep checking in here to see if the anger has subsided here. Nope.

I'm guessing the anger won't subside until the government has gone from the Red party to the Blue party. And somehow by magic Roy Green would've died under Labour but not under National, despite his company getting $95,000 from the government.

But this isn't good enough because somehow "Not a cent of direct help" has gone to the business, apparently. If the goalposts are changed so that money going to the business isn't accepted as being direct help then how is anyone supposed to argue with that?

This is a truly sad story but constantly coming back to "Cindy and her incompetents" isn't really convincing me that the problem is anything other than the government being from the wrong party.

Care to justify Labour's plan to implement a 2 year Police State? Supported by the hypocritical Greens? Talk with a smile...Rule with an iron fist.

Panda-NZ-
15-05-2020, 02:59 PM
I keep checking in here to see if the anger has subsided here. Nope.

newstalk zb is not great for mental health. :sleep:

Joshuatree
15-05-2020, 03:07 PM
Care to justify Labour's plan to implement a 2 year Police State? Supported by the hypocritical Greens? Talk with a smile...Rule with an iron fist.

What plan is that then ?

jonu
15-05-2020, 03:12 PM
What plan is that then ?

The one they pulled back from in the blink of an eye the minute they were questioned on it. I know you're smitten with Cindy JT, but I'm not sure how even you could have been comfortable with what they proposed.

Joshuatree
15-05-2020, 03:19 PM
Here im reposting this for you and repeat im disappointed people have already forgotten about covid and 2nd waves and the very real possibility Covid 19 may be with us from now on with no vaccine found.2 years and 10 people it should stay.Bricbatts to the govt for folding imo.

"Section 71a of the Health act. a constable can enter any building or private home for any of a full suite of powers. This has been around a long time.

Clause 20 of this new bill is narrower. a warrantless power of entry into a private dwelling under covid 19 is limited in effect to breaking up parties flouting the rules around gathering size.

This enforcement power is intended to limit contagion risks and enable effective track and tracing if theres an outbreak to get under control says David P.arker. Once again its like, its over lets go back to how it was before.Unbelievable, chocks away.
2nd wave, economy destruction.Depression anyone. Hope like hell we get through this.It may be many years , a vaccine may not even be found. Good luck everyone we are going to need it, this budget gives us a very good chance to get through this coming global recession but adapt and change we must."

jonu
15-05-2020, 03:39 PM
Here im reposting this for you and repeat im disappointed people have already forgotten about covid and 2nd waves and the very real possibility Covid 19 may be with us from now on with no vaccine found.2 years and 10 people it should stay.Bricbatts to the govt for folding imo.

"Section 71a of the Health act. a constable can enter any building or private home for any of a full suite of powers. This has been around a long time.

Clause 20 of this new bill is narrower. a warrantless power of entry into a private dwelling under covid 19 is limited in effect to breaking up parties flouting the rules around gathering size.

This enforcement power is intended to limit contagion risks and enable effective track and tracing if theres an outbreak to get under control says David P.arker. Once again its like, its over lets go back to how it was before.Unbelievable, chocks away.
2nd wave, economy destruction.Depression anyone. Hope like hell we get through this.It may be many years , a vaccine may not even be found. Good luck everyone we are going to need it, this budget gives us a very good chance to get through this coming global recession but adapt and change we must."

2nd waves etc can be addressed if and when they arise. We don't need a 2 year law in advance....and they well knew that.

What exactly is a "full suite of powers"?

Saying something is limited "in effect" means nothing in terms of the law. You might be happy to give up your Civil Liberties for no good reason. I'm not.
They tried to pass this into law the very day the Police were exposed trialling facial recognition technology without permission. Your naivity would be touching if it weren't so dangerous.

Balance
15-05-2020, 04:53 PM
I keep checking in here to see if the anger has subsided here. Nope.

I'm guessing the anger won't subside until the government has gone from the Red party to the Blue party. And somehow by magic Roy Green would've died under Labour but not under National, despite his company getting $95,000 from the government.

But this isn't good enough because somehow "Not a cent of direct help" has gone to the business, apparently. If the goalposts are changed so that money going to the business isn't accepted as being direct help then how is anyone supposed to argue with that?

This is a truly sad story but constantly coming back to "Cindy and her incompetents" isn't really convincing me that the problem is anything other than the government being from the wrong party.

$95,000 went to his staff - not him. He still had to top up whatever the shortfall was. Then, there’s the ACC, PAYE, KiwiSaver, rent, leases, power etc.

Where was the direct help to him - when the lockdown in an inconsistent manner deprived him completely of revenues?

Dipping into whatever savings he had & despairing of the future - that was the straw which broke the camel’s back.
See, you Labourites can skirt around and duck & dive but you cannot hide the cold hard truth.

And I could not care a monkey’s about National with Simon as leader.

An Opposition is only effective when it is strong.

And a country is strong when it has a strong Opposition.

Joshuatree
15-05-2020, 04:55 PM
2nd waves etc can be addressed if and when they arise. We don't need a 2 year law in advance....and they well knew that.

What exactly is a "full suite of powers"?

Saying something is limited "in effect" means nothing in terms of the law. You might be happy to give up your Civil Liberties for no good reason. I'm not.
They tried to pass this into law the very day the Police were exposed trialling facial recognition technology without permission. Your naivity would be touching if it weren't so dangerous.

"2nd wave addressed when it comes", my dog how flippant you are, covid 19 was just a surf competition riiiight. I think the police need to drop in and check up on you jonu, tell you a party of one is not a party and order you to cheer up have abeersy, have some snifters , then through the bottom of your empty bottle of aged malt whisky you have cheersy teary, bottoms up ding dong dance of the celebration of life and we dont know how lucky we are jonu we dont know......;)

Joshuatree
16-05-2020, 11:03 AM
What an incredible story by Matt Nippert sourcing 2540 pages and giving us this action packed success story....so far, fingers crossed.A+ govt assessment, response, action, and capability all having to be done on the fly!


"A senior government figure said the pace with bewildering: "New information was arriving faster than we were able to make decisions, which were quickly being made obsolete."
"It was as if test-match cricketers suddenly found themselves playing a T20 super over."


'No time for a trial run': The astonishing inside story of how NZ fought pandemic (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12332156)

Balance
17-05-2020, 07:15 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/121529314/hobbiton-labels-400-million-tourism-rescue-package-a-joke

7 weeks and the government still has no plan and clearly no clue how to help the tourism sector.

What is a key attraction? Well, don’t ask because this government thinks it is something to do with John Key.

$70m for Winston's racing industry and $50m so far for Pike River Non-Recovery Plan but $400m for NZ's biggest export earner?

This is a government captured by self-interest and lack of business acumen.

BlackPeter
17-05-2020, 09:53 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/121529314/hobbiton-labels-400-million-tourism-rescue-package-a-joke

...

$70m for Winston's racing industry and $50m so far for Pike River Non-Recovery Plan but $400m for NZ's biggest export earner?

This is a government captured by self-interest and lack of business acumen.

I agree - they are splashing money around to satisfy their clientel. Smells pretty fishy, doesn't it?

But wait - somehow I remember the Key government first allowing South Canterbury Finance to screw up their books, than make it much worse through inadequate communication and a lot of ferociously dumb decisions and than ask the taxpayer to pick up the tab (check out "the billion dollar bonfire" from Chris Lee).

I remember as well the Key government turning health and safety into an afterthought (not just in the mining industry) and so allowing Pike River to happen (check out "Tragedy at Pike River Mine" by Rebecca MacFie).

Lets face it - both big parties and certainly more so the one man party with First in their name provided over the years plenty of evidence to demonstrate their incompetence as well as their bias towards certain interest groups often skirting corruption. On the other hand - I think that most politicians in both of the big parties (and I would add here ACT and the Green party as well) at least want to do what they think is right for the country. But hey - they are only human.

Looking at the distribution of incompetence and corruption I would think that both are inherent in both camps, with maybe a bit more incompetence to the left and a bit more corruption to the right.

So - sure, the budget does not look like a master stroke, but on the other hand - I haven't yet heard a convincing alternative plan from the opposition either ... but sure - just to p*ss on anything coming from one side seems to be easier than constructive contributions? BTW - similar strategy the current occupant of the oval office is using ... accident or learning from the enemy?

Balance
17-05-2020, 10:09 AM
But wait - somehow I remember the Key government first allowing South Canterbury Finance to screw up their books, than make it much worse through inadequate communication and a lot of ferociously dumb decisions and than ask the taxpayer to pick up the tab (check out "the billion dollar bonfire" from Chris Lee).



Don't rely on Chris Lee for any objective assessment of what happened with the finance company sector, and SCF in particular. Chris is like Trump - blaming everyone except himself imo for his clients losing money after relying on his 'rating' system. Chris believed Hubbard walked on water as well.

I actually know SCF rather well - had several interactions with the company before the GFC hit. Hubbard treated SCF as his own investment vehicle - splashing money ever which way on a hand shake. For example, he 'gave' $40m of SCF funds as seed money into a fund to invest in overseas properties!

By the time the GFC hit, SCF was already a basket case but courtesy of Forsyth Barr & the government guarantee, SCF was able to raise hundreds of millions of dollars more in deposits to cover up until all the dodgy & bad deals done by Hubbard & SCF blew up.

BlackPeter
17-05-2020, 10:16 AM
Don't rely on Chris Lee for any objective assessment of what happened with the finance company sector, and SCF in particular. Chris is like Trump - blaming everyone except himself imo for his clients losing money after relying on his 'rating' system. Chris believed Hubbard walked on water as well.

I actually know SCF rather well with several interactions before the GFC hit. Hubbard treated SCF as his own investment vehicle - splashing money ever which way on a hand shake.

By the time the GFC hit, SCF was already a basket case but courtesy of Forsyth Barr & the government guarantee, SCF was able to raise hundreds of millions of dollars more in deposits to cover up until all the dodgy & bad deals done by Hubbard & SCF blew up.

I know - you love to spread your hate and negativity ... be it across Cindy or Chris.

Did you even read the book? Could you just point out for us one fact Chris got wrong in his investigation on South Canterbury Finance?

Or is this just another case of (s)he can never do anything right ...?

Balance
17-05-2020, 01:24 PM
I know - you love to spread your hate and negativity ... be it across Cindy or Chris.

Did you even read the book? Could you just point out for us one fact Chris got wrong in his investigation on South Canterbury Finance?

Or is this just another case of (s)he can never do anything right ...?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/2161440/Advice-and-adversity

The couple said they were private people and asked for the sums involved to be kept confidential, but felt they needed to tell their story because they were infuriated to see Lee continually quoted in the media and criticising others when they feel so badly let down.

"You read his blogs and feel he's a really good guy that is there for the investors, but we feel that is just an illusion," said Clare Lindsay.

Around 60% of their portfolio was in finance companies. Around 30% was in investments with either no rating from a respected international ratings agency, or a rating below investment grade.

RTM
17-05-2020, 04:56 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/121529314/hobbiton-labels-400-million-tourism-rescue-package-a-joke

7 weeks and the government still has no plan and clearly no clue how to help the tourism sector.
.

Really not sure how one gets tourism going again without customers ? I guess our borders will be closed except to people from areas with similar COVID-19 statuses to NZ. Not to many of those on the horizon. And I suspect KIWI's are going to be reluctant to travel and spend within NZ while the covid 19 threat lurks alongside a changed economic world. Will be ditto for our overseas tourists.

While I don't think KD is sharpest tool in the box....I do think he's between a rock and a hard place with this one.

BlackPeter
17-05-2020, 05:19 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/2161440/Advice-and-adversity

The couple said they were private people and asked for the sums involved to be kept confidential, but felt they needed to tell their story because they were infuriated to see Lee continually quoted in the media and criticising others when they feel so badly let down.

"You read his blogs and feel he's a really good guy that is there for the investors, but we feel that is just an illusion," said Clare Lindsay.

Around 60% of their portfolio was in finance companies. Around 30% was in investments with either no rating from a respected international ratings agency, or a rating below investment grade.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the book about South Canterbury Finance I referred to.

This book is not a recommendation of how to put together a portfolio, but it is analyzing the last years of South Canterbury Finance, including how the National government mishandled and worsened the problems of the company resulting into the waste of (give a take) a billion tax payer dollars.

I think it is time for you to admit that you are just another disgruntled investor who tries to give somebody else the fault for your losses. Chris seems to be an easy target. So easy for you to smear his name without any clue what the book contains, isn't it?

Your standards are surprisingly low for somebody who seems to expect so much from others. But hey - no surprises here.

Balance
17-05-2020, 05:33 PM
This has absolutely nothing to do with the book about South Canterbury Finance I referred to.

This book is not a recommendation of how to put together a portfolio, but it is analyzing the last years of South Canterbury Finance, including how the National government mishandled and worsened the problems of the company resulting into the waste of (give a take) a billion tax payer dollars.

I think it is time for you to admit that you are just another disgruntled investor who tries to give somebody else the fault for your losses. Chris seems to be an easy target. So easy for you to smear his name without any clue what the book contains, isn't it?

Your standards are surprisingly low for somebody who seems to expect so much from others. But hey - no surprises here.

FYI - I made money buying SCF bonds when they traded at 25% discount to face value. Was a lovely easy $25k gain (taxable) as government guaranteed.

FYI - I never invested a single cent in finance companies.

FYI - I warned attendees at a public investment forum in New Plymouth to stay well clear of finance companies.

Chris Lee invented his own finance company ratings system, recommended and put clients’ funds into finance companies, especially SCF. He thought Hubbard walked on water. Post the collapse of the sector, he deleted all references to his ratings system and to finance companies.

I will not waste one cent and one moment on the garbage he writes and wrote - my opinion which I am prepared to defend and share with others.

Next.

Balance
17-05-2020, 05:50 PM
Really not sure how one gets tourism going again without customers ? I guess our borders will be closed except to people from areas with similar COVID-19 statuses to NZ. Not to many of those on the horizon. And I suspect KIWI's are going to be reluctant to travel and spend within NZ while the covid 19 threat lurks alongside a changed economic world. Will be ditto for our overseas tourists.

While I don't think KD is sharpest tool in the box....I do think he's between a rock and a hard place with this one.

How about a voucher system, $200 per NZer, to spend on NZ travel, accommodation and tourism related businesses? Idea is to encourage NZers to spend in NZ to keep as much of the sector afloat until such time as international tourists can come to NZ again.

There is a total lack of imagination and idea by KD (after 2 months) about how to help the industry!

Excerpt :

"However, details on what these key attractions are and how they are measured were lacking.

Alexander was scathing towards the Minister of Tourism Kelvin Davis whom he says does not understand the tourist industry.

“He [Davis] has no idea and is missing in action,” Alexander said.

"The problem is we have a minister of Tourism who is talking at his industry not talking with or for his industry,"

RTM
17-05-2020, 07:01 PM
Yeah, certainly not supporting KD.
I think no matter what they do tho...it’s going to be very very quiet in the tourism sector for quite a while.



How about a voucher system, $200 per NZer, to spend on NZ travel, accommodation and tourism related businesses? Idea is to encourage NZers to spend in NZ to keep as much of the sector afloat until such time as international tourists can come to NZ again.

There is a total lack of imagination and idea by KD (after 2 months) about how to help the industry!

Excerpt :

"However, details on what these key attractions are and how they are measured were lacking.

Alexander was scathing towards the Minister of Tourism Kelvin Davis whom he says does not understand the tourist industry.

“He [Davis] has no idea and is missing in action,” Alexander said.

"The problem is we have a minister of Tourism who is talking at his industry not talking with or for his industry,"

nztx
18-05-2020, 02:12 AM
Really not sure how one gets tourism going again without customers ? I guess our borders will be closed except to people from areas with similar COVID-19 statuses to NZ. Not to many of those on the horizon. And I suspect KIWI's are going to be reluctant to travel and spend within NZ while the covid 19 threat lurks alongside a changed economic world. Will be ditto for our overseas tourists.

While I don't think KD is sharpest tool in the box....I do think he's between a rock and a hard place with this one.


Agree with you there

this goes further as well - to Services & all supplying that Sector

Add in Hospitality

Add in most Accommodation businesses right across NZ

then look at what the likely effects are on say the Queenstown & Kaikoura communities for indication of the wider ripple effects

dobby41
18-05-2020, 07:37 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/121529314/hobbiton-labels-400-million-tourism-rescue-package-a-joke

7 weeks and the government still has no plan and clearly no clue how to help the tourism sector.

What is a key attraction? Well, don’t ask because this government thinks it is something to do with John Key.

$70m for Winston's racing industry and $50m so far for Pike River Non-Recovery Plan but $400m for NZ's biggest export earner?

This is a government captured by self-interest and lack of business acumen.

Hard to have a plan given we still don't have a view on how this is likely to end and how.
Whatever you may think of the lockdown closing the borders was needed - this shuts out tourists so it is hard to help a sector which has no customers.
The Govt will help turn the sector to domestic but jobs will be lost - there is no way out of that.
Lack of business acumen - they seem to be listening well. National lacks business acumen by the same measure.

JBmurc
18-05-2020, 10:21 AM
If one what to see what the future may hold just look at the past of the team COL

11590

elZorro
18-05-2020, 05:45 PM
This says it all..
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12332872

winner69
18-05-2020, 05:53 PM
This says it all..
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12332872

What does Tova say about this?

I heard she said Bridges is a dead man walking ...so he must be

What’s the talent like on Labour list if they get down to 72

elZorro
18-05-2020, 06:03 PM
What does Tova say about this?

I heard she said Bridges is a dead man walking ...so he must be

What’s the talent like on Labour list if they get down to 72

Yep, I like that article, seems to have a ring of truth in it. They won't put up Judith Collins will they? Chris Luxon more likely.

I can confirm that it's possible that there will be some tricky choices on the Labour List near 72, even further up. It'll come down to the Labour LEC candidate choices. Lots of National-held electorates don't seem to have confirmed/chosen Labour candidates yet, but with this sort of a poll there should be some very strong contenders putting their names forward. It's the sort of territory National has held for so long, you get to be the candidate, you're in!

JBmurc
18-05-2020, 06:17 PM
Yep, I like that article, seems to have a ring of truth in it. They won't put up Judith Collins will they? Chris Luxon more likely.

I can confirm that it's possible that there will be some tricky choices on the Labour List near 72, even further up. It'll come down to the Labour LEC candidate choices. Lots of National-held electorates don't seem to have confirmed/chosen Labour candidates yet, but with this sort of a poll there should be some very strong contenders putting their names forward. It's the sort of territory National has held for so long, you get to be the candidate, you're in!

Makes sense to do what labour did last election and drop bridges for the likes of Luxon ... never understood bridges being anything more than a stopgap till a better leader was found...

Balance
18-05-2020, 06:21 PM
This says it all..
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12332872

Great stuff! Very very good news indeed!

Hasten the necessary change in Opposition leadership! 😁

Then, there’s the added bonus of Winston & NZF looking like they are on the way out. 👍

RTM
18-05-2020, 08:05 PM
Great stuff! Very very good news indeed!

Hasten the necessary change in Opposition leadership! ��

Then, there’s the added bonus of Winston & NZF looking like they are on the way out. ��

Bridges comes across really badly. Stupid little sayings. Possibly some of the things he says have merit...but they just come across as wining. And its as if he looks at what government is doing. Selects something he can pick on, makes up a wee slogan about it...and then wines away..."Rudderless ship wallowing in a sea of debt"....wow. And the things he picks...e,g, Crowds able to worship...well, the churches have generally been more than happy to tow the line in the national interest (thankyou) , two more weeks, not a lot of difference for them really is there. Talk about missing the boat.


Right up there with KD IMO.

Night all.

dobby41
19-05-2020, 07:20 AM
Yep, I like that article, seems to have a ring of truth in it. They won't put up Judith Collins will they? Chris Luxon more likely.


Can they put Chris in since he isn't an MP at all?
Next time maybe.

winner69
19-05-2020, 07:57 AM
At this rate no National List MPs .....could be nervous times for some

Balance
19-05-2020, 08:02 AM
At this rate no National List MPs .....could be nervous times for some

They will be the ones renewing the agitation for leadership change. Otherwise, it will be goodnight nurse for them.

jonu
19-05-2020, 08:10 AM
At this rate no National List MPs .....could be nervous times for some

As the old saying goes....a week is a long time in politics.

We've had 7 weeks of a daily propaganda session from Ardern. The worm will turn. Whether Bridges survives is another matter. Luxon can't be the answer with nil parliamentary experience. Those currently in the wings wouldn't tolerate it either.

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 08:17 AM
Bridges comes across really badly. Stupid little sayings. Possibly some of the things he says have merit...but they just come across as wining. And its as if he looks at what government is doing. Selects something he can pick on, makes up a wee slogan about it...and then wines away..."Rudderless ship wallowing in a sea of debt"....wow. And the things he picks...e,g, Crowds able to worship...well, the churches have generally been more than happy to tow the line


Where To?
Bridges should step down without a scrap. It was the best thing Andrew Little has ever done, and the similarities between Bridges and Little are many. Both doing their best and in spite of their talents, neither suited to leadership. Apart from that. Labour don't seem to be doing much harm yet. They've abandoned most of their silliest policies, and as long as they aren't doing anything, they're not doing any harm. As a party - they're amusing and good fun.

jonu
19-05-2020, 08:22 AM
Where To?
.... Labour don't seem to be doing much harm yet. They've abandoned most of their silliest policies, and as long as they aren't doing anything, they're not doing any harm. As a party - they're amusing and good fun.

I hope this is irony from you Fungus.

RTM
19-05-2020, 08:42 AM
As the old saying goes....a week is a long time in politics.

We've had 7 weeks of a daily propaganda session from Ardern. The worm will turn. Whether Bridges survives is another matter. Luxon can't be the answer with nil parliamentary experience. Those currently in the wings wouldn't tolerate it either.

There is another leader on the world scene who had zero experience before he was elected.....��

jonu
19-05-2020, 08:47 AM
There is another leader on the world scene who had zero experience before he was elected.....��

If it is the orange one of whom you speak....he is not in a parliamentary system.

dobby41
19-05-2020, 08:55 AM
Luxon can't be the answer with nil parliamentary experience. Those currently in the wings wouldn't tolerate it either.

He can't be the answer because he isn't in Parliament.
How could the leader of the opposition not be an MP?

justakiwi
19-05-2020, 08:58 AM
And look how that turned out!


There is another leader on the world scene who had zero experience before he was elected.....��

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 09:00 AM
I hope this is irony from you Fungus.

Irony! From me? Doesn't seem possible.

Zaphod
19-05-2020, 11:00 AM
I hope this is irony from you Fungus.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you consume Hydroxychloroquine with a side of disinfectant. Madness descends.

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 11:16 AM
This says it all..
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12332872
Well done on coming up with a leader with charisma ez. It took a while, but you got there. Now if only the party could dump their dead-beat MPs, you'd possibly have a three term party, but it's not looking likely. Mind you Curran has gone. That's a start. Could you dump Twyford next, or do you think Lee's Galloway should be next?

Panda-NZ-
19-05-2020, 11:36 AM
Well done on coming up with a leader with charisma ez. It took a while, but you got there. Now if only the party could dump their dead-beat MPs, you'd possibly have a three term party, but it's not looking likely. Mind you Curran has gone. That's a start. Could you dump Twyford next, or do you think Lee's Galloway should be next?

Yes they made a series of mistakes starting with Goff. It seems the charasmatic centre-left people do well in the modern environment whereas any bloke plucked off the street who says 'strong economy' once or twice is in with a chance (boris and scomo).

Maybe rather than competence, they need to work on the social media since that's what its about these days along with 2 min segments on TV.

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 12:00 PM
This is a perfect example of what happens when you consume Hydroxychloroquine with a side of disinfectant. Madness descends.

I can't detect any sign of madness in jonu's post. It was just a simple declaration of hope.

jonu
19-05-2020, 01:47 PM
Just as we get back to work Cindy thinks more paid holidays is a good idea.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/back-your-backyard/121560031/government-pondering-extra-public-holidays-to-encourage-domestic-tourism

Anyone reminded of the Roman Empire in its last days? Keep the public amused...it's all you need to do. Aside from dismissing. The Parliamentary Select Committee couldn't get anyone from Treasury to front this morning. And that was after Grant Robertson ditched them last week.

Get ready for more arrogance and dismissiveness with a sprinkling of lollies.

dobby41
19-05-2020, 02:01 PM
Just as we get back to work Cindy thinks more paid holidays is a good idea.


She said it was being considered not that it was a good idea - a world of difference.
Reading comprehension problem?

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 02:17 PM
She said it was being considered not that it was a good idea - a world of difference.
Reading comprehension problem?

The fact that they are giving it 'active consideration' is frightening enough. It should be given 'instant dismissal' along with whoever suggested it.

blackcap
19-05-2020, 02:33 PM
She said it was being considered not that it was a good idea - a world of difference.
Reading comprehension problem?

Yeah lets just drive that final nail in the coffin of already struggling business. Any government considering such measures are a bunch of fools.

jonu
19-05-2020, 02:33 PM
She said it was being considered not that it was a good idea - a world of difference.
Reading comprehension problem?

"Active consideration" implies she thinks it is a good enough idea to take seriously. Just smile and keep tossing the lollies Cindy.

dobby41
19-05-2020, 02:47 PM
The fact that they are giving it 'active consideration' is frightening enough. It should be given 'instant dismissal' along with whoever suggested it.


Yeah lets just drive that final nail in the coffin of already struggling business. Any government considering such measures are a bunch of fools.


"Active consideration" implies she thinks it is a good enough idea to take seriously. Just smile and keep tossing the lollies Cindy.

I think you'd have to look at how this came about (and I haven't seen the interview - just the article quote and you know how newspapers work).
You all seem to have filled in the gaps in information with your own bias.
You will see what you want to see.

RTM
19-05-2020, 03:09 PM
And look how that turned out!

Well actually, not to bad until the COVID thingy came along when he was immediately way out of his depth.
Better him him than Nancy and Joe and that lot. Jeeze !

artemis
19-05-2020, 03:16 PM
The big advantage of more public holidays is that it doesn't cost the government anything in time, effort or money. But creams some extra tax from businesses that benefit. And votes of course. What's not to like?

Balance
19-05-2020, 04:54 PM
Leadership vote on Simon next Tuesday unless polls change dramatically this Thursday.

Balance
19-05-2020, 05:03 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/417022/former-pm-jim-bolger-backs-todd-muller-for-next-national-leader

Todd Muller has the numbers?

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 05:17 PM
The big advantage of more public holidays is that it doesn't cost the government anything in time, effort or money. But creams some extra tax from businesses that benefit. And votes of course. What's not to like?

Brilliant. Why not go even further then. Every second month off perhaps? Four day weekends?

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 05:25 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/417022/former-pm-jim-bolger-backs-todd-muller-for-next-national-leader

Todd Muller has the numbers?

Yes. If they make him leader asap he might not win the election but he could get the vote up enough to at least save their list members. Then again he might just win. The economy is about to get a kick in the guts, along with high job loss numbers, and that can make a week, a day, or an hour in politics a long time.

BlackPeter
19-05-2020, 05:33 PM
Yes. If they make him leader asap he might not win the election but he could get the vote up enough to at least save their list members. Then again he might just win. The economy is about to get a kick in the guts, along with high job loss numbers, and that can make a week, a day, or an hour in politics a long time.

Yep - and lets not forget, Jacinda had only seven weeks as PM candidate. Plenty of time for the right candidate to turn the numbers back ...

fungus pudding
19-05-2020, 05:39 PM
Yep - and lets not forget, Jacinda had only seven weeks as PM candidate. Plenty of time for the right candidate to turn the numbers back ...

Indeed, but it was Winston who put her in place. Not the voters.

Panda-NZ-
19-05-2020, 05:48 PM
Indeed, but it was Winston who put her in place. Not the voters.

The elected opposition to the National party won easily plus the 2% wasted TOP vote.

artemis
19-05-2020, 05:48 PM
Brilliant. Why not go even further then. Every second month off perhaps? Four day weekends?

Heh, might have been a spot of /sarc in my post.

Though while we are looking at ways to boost the economy, maybe set the minimum wage at whatever the 'living wage' is. According to The Treasury, government coffers are one of the two main beneficiaries from increased tax and reduced government transfers.

The other main beneficiaries are young single workers, many living with mum and dad.

Zaphod
19-05-2020, 05:54 PM
Brilliant. Why not go even further then. Every second month off perhaps? Four day weekends?

I've heard Labour MP;s mention that there weren't enough public holidays in the second half of the year well before the pandemic struck. They also cited OECD statistics to prove that we don't have enough. Or does that prove that other countries have too many?

Sounds more like populist policy which should help in the upcoming election.

Balance
19-05-2020, 06:31 PM
https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-opinion/opinion-another-captain%E2%80%99s-call

As Bob Jones observed, Cindy’s star power will not save Labour when the winter of discontent hits NZ.

RTM
19-05-2020, 06:55 PM
https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-opinion/opinion-another-captain%E2%80%99s-call

As Bob Jones observed, Cindy’s star power will not save Labour when the winter of discontent hits NZ.

Thanks. Good article.

Balance
19-05-2020, 07:32 PM
Unemployment, reduction in wages & salaries down to the wage subsidy $585 per week for many still employed, tough business conditions, drop in spending power, no overseas holidays - that’s ahead for NZ in the winter of discontent.

justakiwi
19-05-2020, 07:43 PM
Seriously? Wow. It scares the crap out of me that Kiwis actually believe this.


Well actually, not to bad until the COVID thingy came along when he was immediately way out of his depth.
Better him him than Nancy and Joe and that lot. Jeeze !

jonu
19-05-2020, 07:50 PM
Sweden, for April, recorded the highest number of deaths in one month since 1993. April was was however, still 599 deaths lower than December 1993 when Sweden was in a flu epidemic.

This is the no lockdown, be responsible Sweden that may well be exposing the over reaction and panic trap the rest of the world has fallen into.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12333111

justakiwi
19-05-2020, 08:03 PM
You do realise that a great many people in this country, actually earn significantly less than $585 a week?

The government is providing significant financial assistance right now which you refuse to even acknowledge. Maybe everyone needs to stop expecting that a global pandemic will not have any negative impact. There were negative impacts on everything, including economies, during the world wars. People lost jobs. Businesses fell over. Times were tough. Everyone in this day and age expects the government to magically fix it all. How about expecting that individuals will have to make some sacrifices and do what they can to contribute to their own recovery? I was talking to a woman here in my little town today, who runs a one-woman cafe/bakery. She has been closed for the lockdown duration. Guess what she did? She made a decision not to sit at home worrying about her business - she got off her butt and went job hunting for a temp job. She has been working at a local factory operating a packing machine, for several shifts each week. Her cafe is open again, but business is down, at least for now. But she isn’t whinging and complaining 24/7 - she will keep her shifts at the factory and do both jobs, until business picks up. And guess what else? She didn’t vote Labour and she wasn’t a huge fan of Jacinda, but she was happy to give this government credit for the way they have managed all of this.

If this small business owner can think outside the square and be proactive to help herself maybe others could at least consider, doing the same.


Unemployment, reduction in wages & salaries down to the wage subsidy $585 per week for many still employed, tough business conditions, drop in spending power, no overseas holidays - that’s ahead for NZ in the winter of discontent.

Balance
19-05-2020, 08:27 PM
You do realise that a great many people in this country, actually earn significantly less than $585 a week.

If this small business owner can think outside the square and be proactive to help herself maybe others could at least consider, doing the same.

Yes, there are many who earn less than $585 a week.

What is happening though is that there are tens of thousands of new unemployeds (think Air NZ eg and of course, the minimum wage for a 40 hour week is now $800 people) who used to earn significantly more.

The SMEs are extremely unhappy because they compare the little help they are getting from this government vs what the Australian government is doing to help the SMEs over there. And they have the right to ask why?

Anyway, after the euphoria of being released from the lockdown and the collective sense of achievement of beating the virus have faded into the background, let’s see how NZers feel when the cold chilly wind of recession whistle through their homes.

justakiwi
19-05-2020, 08:51 PM
Maybe those who were on high incomes and now find themselves unemployed, will have to make some sacrifices to help themselves. Maybe they will need to rethink their $600,000 house/$300,000 mortgage, two BMWs in the garage, and the annual overseas holiday. I am not being judgmental or nasty. I am just pointing out, that those at the top end of the “standard of living” bracket, have some room to prune costs. Sure, their $585/week job subsidy payment or unemployment/accomodation assistance might be a shock to their system, but at least they have the ability to downsize to free up capital and/or reduce costs.

It would be interesting to know how many high income people have income protection insurance. Those earning six figure incomes probably need it more than the rest of us, to ensure they can maintain their higher standard of living if they lose their job.


Yes, there are many who earn less than $585 a week.

What is happening thoughis that there are tens of thousands of new unemployeds (think Air NZ eg and of course, the minimum wage for a 40 hour week is now $800 per) who used to earn significantly more.

The SMEs are extremely unhappy because they compare the little help they are getting from this government vs what the Australian government is going to help the SMEs over there. And they have the right to ask why?

Anyway, after the euphoria of being released from the lockdown and the sense of achievement of beating the virus have faded into the background, let’s see how NZers feel when the cold chilly wind of recession whistle through their homes.

Balance
19-05-2020, 09:00 PM
Maybe those who were on high incomes and now find themselves unemployed, will have to make some sacrifices to help themselves. Maybe they will need to rethink their $600,000 house/$300,000 mortgage, two BMWs in the garage, and the annual overseas holiday. I am not being judgmental or nasty. I am just pointing out, that those at the top end of the “standard of living” bracket, have some room to prune costs. Sure, their $585/week job subsidy payment or unemployment/accomodation assistance might be a shock to their system, but at least they have the ability to downsize to free up capital and/or reduce costs.

It would be interesting to know how many high income people have income protection insurance. Those earning six figure incomes probably need it more than the rest of us, to ensure they can maintain their higher standard of living if they lose their job.

Think of how many married couples with children are burdened with high mortgage payments - how do they cope with one income less?

And do remember how Labour was going to make housing affordable & available via Kiwibuild & banning overseas buyers? Hasn’t happened, has it?

Promises made but not kept - all that a good Opposition has to do is hammer home the message that it’s all the government’s fault.

And when the chilly cold wind of recession blow through NZers homes in the months ahead, the message of non delivery will get through - star power or no star power.

justakiwi
19-05-2020, 09:18 PM
They make some tough decisions. They get rid of the second car, the boat, the caravan or whatever. They cancel SKY and Netflix and anything else they don’t actually “need.” They cut back whatever costs they can, maybe rent out a room, walk the kids to school instead of running the car. They do whatever they need to do to tide them over until they can find another job. It is bloody hard to do, but unemployment and redundancy are not new things. My ex was made redundant many years ago. We had four kids and a mortgage and his payout was minimal as he had not been working there long. He had no choice but to go on unemployment for a short period of time, but then we made a huge decision for our family. We shut the house up, packed our bags and went to Aussie for 9 months, where he worked on an power line transmission construction project. We moved from town to town across Queensland over that time - our youngest wasn’t even 2 when we left. We lived in rentals or purpose built cabins the size of a container. It was a huge decision to make but we did it for the sake of our family. Sometimes you have to think outside the square and do things you would really rather not have to.

The point I am trying to make is, people can’t expect any government to fully fund these unfortunate situations people find themselves in. They need to be prepared to work with the government financial assistance available, and do what they can to help themselves, alongside that assistance. All of your arguments are always focussed on what the government “isn’t doing” - they can’t do it all! If my local cafe owner can see that and take some responsibility for her own business recovery, why can’t you?


Think of how many married couples with children are burdened with high mortgage payments - how do they cope with one income less?

And do remember how Labour was going to make housing affordable & available via Kiwibuild & banning overseas buyers? Hasn’t happened, has it?

westerly
19-05-2020, 10:03 PM
Sweden, for April, recorded the highest number of deaths in one month since 1993. April was was however, still 599 deaths lower than December 1993 when Sweden was in a flu epidemic.

This is the no lockdown, be responsible Sweden that may well be exposing the over reaction and panic trap the rest of the world has fallen into.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12333111

I don't think Sweden has been very successful at all.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html

westerly

blackcap
20-05-2020, 05:17 AM
I don't think Sweden has been very successful at all.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html

westerly

Actually I think Sweden has been very successful. They have managed to keep their citizens open and free and not subject to horrible restrictions so the citizens can make their own choices. They have a few more deaths but as Jonu said, still lower than when there was a flu epidemic. Many countries will find that the covid death rates are no worse than a bad flu outbreak, yet the measures taken have been way out of proportion. This time the trigger being social media and a populace that is not ready to face up to the fact we are all mortal. I read somewhere yesterday that the average age that people were dying from Wu-flu was wait for it... the average age of death itself.

We are still in the early stages of covid. No one really knows who is successful or who is not successful. What are we going to do in NZ when covid comes here in 6-12 months time when the borders re-open? Going to lockdown again? Or just let it run through the populace? Or are we just not going to re-open borders at all?

Raz
20-05-2020, 07:34 AM
You do realise that a great many people in this country, actually earn significantly less than $585 a week?

The government is providing significant financial assistance right now which you refuse to even acknowledge. Maybe everyone needs to stop expecting that a global pandemic will not have any negative impact. There were negative impacts on everything, including economies, during the world wars. People lost jobs. Businesses fell over. Times were tough. Everyone in this day and age expects the government to magically fix it all. How about expecting that individuals will have to make some sacrifices and do what they can to contribute to their own recovery? I was talking to a woman here in my little town today, who runs a one-woman cafe/bakery. She has been closed for the lockdown duration. Guess what she did? She made a decision not to sit at home worrying about her business - she got off her butt and went job hunting for a temp job. She has been working at a local factory operating a packing machine, for several shifts each week. Her cafe is open again, but business is down, at least for now. But she isn’t whinging and complaining 24/7 - she will keep her shifts at the factory and do both jobs, until business picks up. And guess what else? She didn’t vote Labour and she wasn’t a huge fan of Jacinda, but she was happy to give this government credit for the way they have managed all of this.

If this small business owner can think outside the square and be proactive to help herself maybe others could at least consider, doing the same.

Nice comment, a lot of the working poor in this country are sole traders, small contractors and I know in several cases the 585$ is an uplift or certainity of weekly income for a period.

So a large group of small businesses like this that are getting direct assistance. The problem today is so many more in this group are holding debt and therefore more vulnerable than in the past.

Raz
20-05-2020, 07:58 AM
Maybe those who were on high incomes and now find themselves unemployed, will have to make some sacrifices to help themselves. Maybe they will need to rethink their $600,000 house/$300,000 mortgage, two BMWs in the garage, and the annual overseas holiday. I am not being judgmental or nasty. I am just pointing out, that those at the top end of the “standard of living” bracket, have some room to prune costs. Sure, their $585/week job subsidy payment or unemployment/accomodation assistance might be a shock to their system, but at least they have the ability to downsize to free up capital and/or reduce costs.

It would be interesting to know how many high income people have income protection insurance. Those earning six figure incomes probably need it more than the rest of us, to ensure they can maintain their higher standard of living if they lose their job.

Hard to change you position during a recession..so these people are often really stuck.

jonu
20-05-2020, 08:06 AM
Fletcher's report that their Australian operations continued to trade at 90% of expected revenues for April and approx broke even, while their NZ operations dropped to zero.

The true damage of Cindy's government panic is beginning to emerge. Today Fletchers announce cut of 1500 jobs. Thanks Labour!

fungus pudding
20-05-2020, 08:06 AM
They make some tough decisions. They get rid of the second car, the boat, the caravan or whatever. They cancel SKY and Netflix and anything else they don’t actually “need.” They cut back whatever costs they can, maybe rent out a room, walk the kids to school instead of running the car. They do whatever they need to do to tide them over until they can find another job. It is bloody hard to do, but unemployment and redundancy are not new things. My ex was made redundant many years ago. We had four kids and a mortgage and his payout was minimal as he had not been working there long. He had no choice but to go on unemployment for a short period of time, but then we made a huge decision for our family. We shut the house up, packed our bags and went to Aussie for 9 months, where he worked on an power line transmission construction project. We moved from town to town across Queensland over that time - our youngest wasn’t even 2 when we left. We lived in rentals or purpose built cabins the size of a container. It was a huge decision to make but we did it for the sake of our family. Sometimes you have to think outside the square and do things you would really rather not have to.

The point I am trying to make is, people can’t expect any government to fully fund these unfortunate situations people find themselves in. They need to be prepared to work with the government financial assistance available, and do what they can to help themselves, alongside that assistance. All of your arguments are always focussed on what the government “isn’t doing” - they can’t do it all! If my local cafe owner can see that and take some responsibility for her own business recovery, why can’t you?

Ten out of ten for that post.

justakiwi
20-05-2020, 08:37 AM
I get that. I do. But people need to think outside the square. They either curl up in the corner agonising about how they are going to survive, or they take a deep breath and at least start making a plan.

One of the things this has reinforced for me personally is how freaking glad I am I live in my caravan, live a frugal life and own no property. When I tell people that, I can see from their facial expression that they are thinking “Oh, you poor thing” but this was a choice. My life is so much simpler and so much less stressful. I might not have much money and no assets, but I also have zero debt. If I ever lost my job (which has happened in the past) I know I can survive on whatever social assistance is available to me at the time. Until such time as I could find another job. If those on 6 figure incomes (or even less) lived in much less expensive homes they wouldn’t be tied to ridiculously high mortgages in the event of an unexpected disaster. That applies whether the disaster is an earthquake, a flood, or a pandemic.

Sometimes life is trying to send us a message. Right now, for young people just starting out, that message might be “Anticipate unexpected change and have a plan in place for dealing with it.” Bit like the old emergency fund, but on a much broader scale. When contemplating buying a $600,000 with a $400,000 mortgage, they need to seriously think “what will we do if I lose my job or get sick/injured and can no longer fly planes/manage my motel ...” and consider down-sizing there expectation of what they “need” to be happy.




Hard to change you position during a recession..so these people are often really stuck.

westerly
20-05-2020, 09:11 AM
Actually I think Sweden has been very successful. They have managed to keep their citizens open and free and not subject to horrible restrictions so the citizens can make their own choices. They have a few more deaths but as Jonu said, still lower than when there was a flu epidemic. Many countries will find that the covid death rates are no worse than a bad flu outbreak, yet the measures taken have been way out of proportion. This time the trigger being social media and a populace that is not ready to face up to the fact we are all mortal. I read somewhere yesterday that the average age that people were dying from Wu-flu was wait for it... the average age of death itself.

We are still in the early stages of covid. No one really knows who is successful or who is not successful. What are we going to do in NZ when covid comes here in 6-12 months time when the borders re-open? Going to lockdown again? Or just let it run through the populace? Or are we just not going to re-open borders at all?

Open the link and look at the comparison between the other Nordic countries and then say they were successful.

westerly

blackcap
20-05-2020, 09:14 AM
Open the link and look at the comparison between the other Nordic countries and then say they were successful.

westerly

There is more than one way to measure success. I actually read the CNN link.

jonu
20-05-2020, 09:16 AM
Open the link and look at the comparison between the other Nordic countries and then say they were successful.

westerly

At what hit to the economies of the other Nordic countries? What if there is no quick vaccine? Sweden will have the ability to get tourism back on track while others will be frightened to open their borders. There are many ways to measure the impacts, something that seems lost to Cindy and her government.

macduffy
20-05-2020, 09:21 AM
They have a few more deaths but as Jonu said, still lower than when there was a flu epidemic

Hardly relevant to assessing Sweden's covid response. Rather like saying Russia has had fewer deaths than during WW2.

jonu
20-05-2020, 09:26 AM
Hardly relevant to assessing Sweden's covid response. Rather like saying Russia has had fewer deaths than during WW2.

Really macduffy? A flu epidemic that seemed so unremarkable most people have forgotten it...yet it took more lives than Covid-19 in Sweden!

macduffy
20-05-2020, 10:55 AM
This is getting well away from discussing our govt's performance in the current crisis, but the real yardstick of Sweden's response is to compare them with other Nordic countries.

fungus pudding
20-05-2020, 11:12 AM
This is getting well away from discussing our govt's performance in the current crisis, but the real yardstick of Sweden's response is to compare them with other Nordic countries.

Yes, in ten years from now.

jonu
20-05-2020, 01:10 PM
Breath taking arrogance on display today from PM Cindy. Dismissive of the Epidemic Select Committee and her Ministers avoiding it by saying that Parliament was back to normal, then with apparently no self awareness acknowledging it was in recess until next week.

One moment she says Covid is still present in our community...nek minute says it has been six weeks since untraceable community transmission.

Continuing moveable feast of Alert Level rules. A reporter mentioned that Alert Level 1 rules had almost disappeared from the Covid website. All power apparently still in the hands of the DG of Health.

The worm will turn...even staunch Cindy supporters will begin to see their human rights and economic opportunities are being manipulated and unnecessarily curtailed.

Expect capitulation on all sorts of restrictions once public sentiment turns.

justakiwi
20-05-2020, 01:22 PM
92,000 Kiwis downloaded the new COVID tracer app as soon as it was released today, so I think you might be proven wrong.


.....even staunch Cindy supporters will begin to see their human rights and economic opportunities are being manipulated and unnecessarily curtailed.

Expect capitulation on all sorts of restrictions once public sentiment turns.

Panda-NZ-
20-05-2020, 01:27 PM
Breath taking arrogance on display today from PM Cindy. Dismissive of the Epidemic Select Committee and her Ministers avoiding it by saying that Parliament was back to normal, then with apparently no self awareness acknowledging it was in recess until next week.


These people all have better things to do than be questioned by political figures. Shame on national for trying to divert them from fighting a pandemic. cynical. Maybe in normal circumstances they can turn up and make themselves available to the kangroo comittee.

jonu
20-05-2020, 01:39 PM
92,000 Kiwis downloaded the new COVID tracer app as soon as it was released today, so I think you might be proven wrong.

How many would have signed up for a national ID card? Or a chip under their skin? Same purpose.

As the dole queues grow, Cindy and Grant will keep throwing lollies, maybe extra public holidays....anything to kick the can further down the road and prevent themselves from being held accountable for the decisions they are making.

The worm will turn.

Balance
20-05-2020, 01:54 PM
They make some tough decisions. They get rid of the second car, the boat, the caravan or whatever. They cancel SKY and Netflix and anything else they don’t actually “need.” They cut back whatever costs they can, maybe rent out a room, walk the kids to school instead of running the car. They do whatever they need to do to tide them over until they can find another job. It is bloody hard to do, but unemployment and redundancy are not new things. My ex was made redundant many years ago. We had four kids and a mortgage and his payout was minimal as he had not been working there long. He had no choice but to go on unemployment for a short period of time, but then we made a huge decision for our family. We shut the house up, packed our bags and went to Aussie for 9 months, where he worked on an power line transmission construction project. We moved from town to town across Queensland over that time - our youngest wasn’t even 2 when we left. We lived in rentals or purpose built cabins the size of a container. It was a huge decision to make but we did it for the sake of our family. Sometimes you have to think outside the square and do things you would really rather not have to.

The point I am trying to make is, people can’t expect any government to fully fund these unfortunate situations people find themselves in. They need to be prepared to work with the government financial assistance available, and do what they can to help themselves, alongside that assistance. All of your arguments are always focussed on what the government “isn’t doing” - they can’t do it all! If my local cafe owner can see that and take some responsibility for her own business recovery, why can’t you?

The beneficiaries definitely do expect the government to fully fund their living - encouraged by Cindy & the Labour Party with the social welfare mindset.

And have you made the suggestion to cut back on other than the absolute necessities of life to the tens of thousands of beneficiaries who still smoke, have Sky TV and still drink alcohol?

Have you suggested they plant vegetables & fruits and go fishing to supplement the family meals rather than have takeaways?

And have you suggested they go out and do charitable & community work rather than stay at home wasting their time?

And please don't write that the above is not true - you only have to drive around South Auckland, especially on benefits day, to see how true the above is.

blackcap
20-05-2020, 02:01 PM
92,000 Kiwis downloaded the new COVID tracer app as soon as it was released today, so I think you might be proven wrong.

But 92,000 Kiwis is only about 2% of the population or 1 in 50. That is not really a big uptake at all.

Panda-NZ-
20-05-2020, 02:02 PM
The beneficiaries definitely do expect the government to fully fund their living - encouraged by Cindy & the Labour Party with the social welfare mindset.

And have you made the suggestion to the tens of thousands of beneficiaries who still smoke, have Sky TV and still drink alcohol?

Have you suggested they plant vegetables and go fishing to supplement the family meals rather than have takeaways?

And please don't write that the above is not true - you just have to drive around South Auckland, especially on benefits day.

Hardly anything goes to them. plus they pay a minimum of 20% in tax given how GST and the low flat band of PAYE works. what tax does a property owner pay in terms of percent of income..?

Anyway, it will all end up with a business or to a landlord. Money to them is money to the rich but based on trickle up rather than down.

dobby41
20-05-2020, 02:03 PM
But 92,000 Kiwis is only about 2% of the population or 1 in 50. That is not really a big uptake at all.

Isn't it day 1 or something?

Pipi
20-05-2020, 02:08 PM
Hardly anything goes to them. plus they pay a minimum of 20% in tax given how GST and the low flat band of PAYE works. what tax does a property owner pay in terms of percent of income..?

Anyway, it will all end up with a business or to a landlord. Money to them is money to the rich but based on trickle up rather than down.

So you class everyone over a beneficiary rich? I own a business but I definitely would not class myself as rich.
I work very hard and don't get any handouts.

Panda-NZ-
20-05-2020, 02:12 PM
So you class everyone over a beneficiary rich? I own a business but I definitely would not class myself as rich.
I work very hard and don't get any handouts.

Nope. I think you knew what I meant. try not to be pedantic.

Pipi
20-05-2020, 02:15 PM
Nope. I think you knew what I meant. try not to be pedantic.

I actually wasn't at all.

blackcap
20-05-2020, 02:17 PM
Isn't it day 1 or something?

Exactly, day 2 and 3 a normally a bigger uptake and then drops off remarkably after that... but we will see.

justakiwi
20-05-2020, 02:25 PM
Wow. As someone who has had the unfortunate experience of being a beneficiary in the past, I find pretty much everything you just said, offensive.

The discussion we were having wasn’t about beneficiaries so once again you are dragging up red herrings. We were talking about people who have lost their jobs due to the COVID situation, particularly those on high incomes with high levels of debt.

By the way, just so you know - yes, while I was raising my children on a benefit, I did have a vegetable garden and fruit trees. Takeaways were a once in a blue moon “treat”, the kids and I were were clothed via op shops and my home was furnished with secondhand furniture and appliances. Later on, I studied full time, while bringing up my kids. Your arrogance and ignorance of how the other half live, is not something you should be proud of. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, but just stop with the beneficiary bashing. You’re embarrassing yourself.


The beneficiaries definitely do expect the government to fully fund their living - encouraged by Cindy & the Labour Party with the social welfare mindset.

And have you made the suggestion to cut back on other than the absolute necessities of life to the tens of thousands of beneficiaries who still smoke, have Sky TV and still drink alcohol?

Have you suggested they plant vegetables & fruits and go fishing to supplement the family meals rather than have takeaways?

And have you suggested they go out and do charitable & community work rather than stay at home wasting their time?

And please don't write that the above is not true - you only have to drive around South Auckland, especially on benefits day, to see how true the above is.

justakiwi
20-05-2020, 02:27 PM
Today was day one. The app was only released today, so I kind of think 92,000 is a pretty significant number.


But 92,000 Kiwis is only about 2% of the population or 1 in 50. That is not really a big uptake at all.

Panda-NZ-
20-05-2020, 02:28 PM
Wow. As someone who has had the unfortunate experience of being a beneficiary in the past, I find pretty much everything you just said, offensive.

The discussion we were having wasn’t about beneficiaries so once again you are dragging up red herrings. We were talking about people who have lost their jobs due to the COVID situation, particularly those on high incomes with high levels of debt.

By the way, just so you know - yes, while I was raising my children on a benefit, I did have a vegetable garden and fruit trees. Takeaways were a once in a blue moon “treat”, the kids and were were clothed via op shops and my home was furnished with secondhand furniture and appliances. Later on, I studied full time, while bringing up my kids. Your arrogance and ignorance of how the other half live, is not something you should be proud of. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, but just stop with the beneficiary bashing. You’re embarrassing yourself.

In the UK they are being given close to a full salary on the taxpayer. In Australia there is a neglible difference compared to a minimum wage role compared to welfare.

Here there is an almost 100% improvement if you take full-time work. the poor have been treated poorly under many governments here sadly.

westerly
20-05-2020, 02:35 PM
The beneficiaries definitely do expect the government to fully fund their
And please don't write that the above is not true - you only have to drive around South Auckland, especially on benefits day, to see how true the above is.

Why would you be driving around South Auckland ? Rubbernecking at the poor?

And from my observation, beneficiaries and superanuitants havwe always been better off under a National Govt.

westerly

Balance
20-05-2020, 03:31 PM
Why would you be driving around South Auckland ? Rubbernecking at the poor?

And from my observation, beneficiaries and superanuitants havwe always been better off under a National Govt.

westerly

Because I have friends who live in South Auckland (Papatoeoe, Takanini & Papakura) - hard working self-employed individuals who can only afford to live there while they build up their businesses. One young couple works more than 12 hour days (7.30 am to 9 pm) 7 days a week - doing plastering. Another runs a hair-dressing business which operates everyday from 10 am until 9 pm. They all grow most of their own vegetables and fruits in their small gardens.

Meanwhile, they look and wonder at the unemployeds in their area who laze around the whole day, smoke like chimneys, watch sports on Sky TV and eat KFC & other takeaways while living in Kainga Ora provided accommodation.

Panda-NZ-
20-05-2020, 03:42 PM
Meanwhile, they look and wonder at the unemployeds in their area who laze around the whole day, smoke like chimneys, watch sports on Sky TV and eat KFC & other takeaways while living in Kainga Ora provided accommodation.

Superannuants aren't any better are they.. or do they belong to a more correct ethnicity? They can't rebel in a meaningful way or do crime so subsidies to them are less important if politics wasn't an issue. You invest in those with potential if you want a positive future which is not the old who didn't save with ample opportunity.

jonu
20-05-2020, 03:46 PM
Superannuants aren't any better are they.. or do they belong to a more correct ethnicity?

Ummm...that would have to be among the most foolish comments I have read on this thread. A cynical attempt to play the race card. Since when does national super have a race component to claim it?

Panda-NZ-
20-05-2020, 03:49 PM
It was clear he was pivoting towards certain demographics through his comments so I simply responded to that.

Balance
20-05-2020, 06:20 PM
It was clear he was pivoting towards certain demographics through his comments so I simply responded to that.

A government hell bent on entrenching the dependence of beneficiaries on the government, in turn building up its voter base - so transparent for anyone with objective eyes to see.

greater fool
20-05-2020, 07:08 PM
Ummm...that would have to be among the most foolish comments I have read on this thread. A cynical attempt to play the race card. Since when does national super have a race component to claim it?

Interesting question. I've completed a National Super application form ( IIRC 23pages ) and the application form requires an ethnicity declaration. Must be relevant surely?

See;
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/documents/forms/new-zealand-superannuation-application.pdf

Question14

macduffy
20-05-2020, 07:36 PM
No doubt you've seen the official reason.

"We collect this
information for statistics
we use in research and
future development work."

Whatever that means.

greater fool
20-05-2020, 08:07 PM
No doubt you've seen the official reason.

"We collect this
information for statistics
we use in research and
future development work."

Whatever that means.

Page 23. Meaning quite clear I'd say.

11607

Page 24. Even clearer. If you put "Jedi Knight", chop chop.

11608

iceman
21-05-2020, 05:34 AM
These people all have better things to do than be questioned by political figures. Shame on national for trying to divert them from fighting a pandemic. cynical. Maybe in normal circumstances they can turn up and make themselves available to the kangroo comittee.

This is quite a shocking statement from you. We live in a parliamentary democracy. This Committee was formed after this most "open and transparent Government" in NZ's history shut down Parliament. Unlike Helen Clark and John Key with 9/11 and Chch earthquakes. They called a special session of Parliament to vote on their response to those situations to give it legitimacy.
You speak like Jacinda is and should be an all powerful dictator. While she is definitely becoming that way, it doesn't mean we should accept it.

Panda-NZ-
21-05-2020, 05:51 AM
Not showing up to a select comittee is not the end of the world and democracy is still alive and well. I think a bit of perspective is needed. How many NZers choose to tune in for a select committee on TV?

blackcap
21-05-2020, 05:56 AM
Not showing up to a select comittee is not the end of the world and democracy is still alive and well. I think a bit of perspective is needed. How many NZers watch a select comittee on tv?

That last comment is rather obtuse. How many NZers watch parliament on tv? Its not important how many people watch anything. It is important that a democracy continues to operate even during periods of crisis. In fact I would go one step further and say it is imperative they operate during periods of crisis.

iceman
21-05-2020, 07:12 AM
Not showing up to a select comittee is not the end of the world and democracy is still alive and well. I think a bit of perspective is needed. How many NZers tune in to watch a select committee on TV?

That's right. Keep digging

iceman
21-05-2020, 07:45 AM
This is a great initiative from the Government helping businesses struggling with the effects of the lockdown and people struggling to feed their families. Well done. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121570742/coronavirus-govt-buying-2000-pigs-a-week-as-industry-struggles-with-surplus

Balance
21-05-2020, 07:51 AM
That's right. Keep digging


I know but the lockdown has been compensated for so this looks like a more unrelated business decision.

Don’t waste time debating with Panda-NZ. He actually believes that companies losing all their revenues during the lockdown were compensated fully via the wage subsidy!

Either he is incapable of understanding what he reads, or as his name suggests, he comes from a background where he has no understanding of democracy.

Panda-NZ-
21-05-2020, 08:28 AM
Don’t waste time debating with Panda-NZ. He actually believes that companies losing all their revenues during the lockdown were compensated fully via the wage subsidy!

Either he is incapable of understanding what he reads, or as his name suggests, he comes from a background where he has no understanding of democracy.

Short memories. Nats were running a legally dubious operation to come up with dirt on the elected opposition parties and their was some involvement of leaking SIS documents. I don't hold short memories or one sided perspectives on a situation.

fungus pudding
21-05-2020, 08:44 AM
Short memories. Nats were running a legally dubious operation to come up with dirt on the elected opposition parties and their was some involvement of leaking SIS documents. I don't hold short memories or one sided perspectives on a situation.

You just reminded me of Labour, at their slimiest, sending their greasiest overseas specifically to dig up ammunition to bury John Key. Wasted trip of course.

Balance
21-05-2020, 09:09 AM
Short memories. Nats were running a legally dubious operation to come up with dirt on the elected opposition parties and their was some involvement of leaking SIS documents. I don't hold short memories or one sided perspectives on a situation.

There's always dirt in politics - always has and always will. Don't be naive.

But please explain how 'the lockdown has been compensated for' ?

dobby41
21-05-2020, 10:28 AM
Short memories. Nats were running a legally dubious operation to come up with dirt on the elected opposition parties and their was some involvement of leaking SIS documents. I don't hold short memories or one sided perspectives on a situation.


You just reminded me of Labour, at their slimiest, sending their greasiest overseas specifically to dig up ammunition to bury John Key. Wasted trip of course.

Seems like stalemate to me.
Both can get dirty.
Park that one there as a draw and move on.

Balance
21-05-2020, 05:57 PM
https://shorthand.radionz.co.nz/collateral-damage-covid-19/index.html

Collateral damage of COVID-19 and the lockdown.

For those genuinely interested in understanding the human costs of what is unfolding out there.

jonu
21-05-2020, 06:45 PM
The tone of this piece from Fran O'Sullivan suggests she is wearing thin of Cindy's arrogance. But will Cindy "dismiss" the Business Council?

O'Sullivan hints she is being disingenuous in her dealings with them. Not Cindy surely? The most open and transparent! Transparent in her bullsh***ery perhaps.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12333598

dobby41
22-05-2020, 12:06 PM
https://shorthand.radionz.co.nz/collateral-damage-covid-19/index.html

Collateral damage of COVID-19 and the lockdown.

For those genuinely interested in understanding the human costs of what is unfolding out there.

What are you suggesting we do now - not what you think we should have done in the past?
Some business will fail, some will lose their life savings, capital will be destroyed.
This happens, always has happened, happened during the GFC.
Should failing business be propped up? No matter what?

Balance
22-05-2020, 12:43 PM
What are you suggesting we do now - not what you think we should have done in the past?
Some business will fail, some will lose their life savings, capital will be destroyed.
This happens, always has happened, happened during the GFC.
Should failing business be propped up? No matter what?

It need not have happened if the lockdown was similar to Australia - thousands of jobs could have been saved - eg. Their building & construction sector, big DIY stores & the likes of Ikea were allowed to operate while NZ was a total lockdown for 5 long weeks.

A tree can take 15 years to grow to maturity but only needs an idiot with a chain-saw an hour to cut it down & kill it. Likewise, businesses.

This government has not given 1 direct cent to businesses - zero, let alone prop up businesses!

But it is what it is - now it’s a question of who has got the better plan, the experience and confidence of a majority of NZers to guide NZ out of the worse recession this country will go through.

Let the battle commences!

Panda-NZ-
22-05-2020, 12:59 PM
It need not have happened if the lockdown was similar to Australia - thousands of jobs could have been saved - eg. Their building & construction sector, big DIY stores & the likes of Ikea were allowed to operate while NZ was a total lockdown for 5 long weeks.




Nothing was known about the virus at the start. No chances were taken and this was appropriate. short and decisive vs extended for months and months (other business will suffer from that). Great leadership on display and hopefully we can have a safe reopening.

Balance
22-05-2020, 01:02 PM
So Bridges is gone. Now we have a real contest between Brand Cindy vs Team National.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300018336/todd-muller-elected-national-leader-simon-bridges-ends-twoyear-reign

An excellent start.

There is only Team National and policies are to benefit all New Zealanders, not just the beneficiaries which St Cindy & her incompetents are hell bent on growing & cultivating for votes.

fungus pudding
22-05-2020, 01:02 PM
Nothing was known about the virus at the start. No chances were taken and this was appropriate. short and decisive vs extended for months and months (other business will suffer from that). Great leadership on display and hopefully we can have a safe reopening.

Reopening of what?

justakiwi
22-05-2020, 01:30 PM
You did not answer dobby41’s question. All you ever do is bitch about what the government has done wrong and imply that they should be doing something else. What exactly should they be doing for businesses? Give us some specific actions that would meet with your approval. Not just the same old, same old waffle. Give us a list of what you think the government should be doing?


It need not have happened if the lockdown was similar to Australia - thousands of jobs could have been saved - eg. Their building & construction sector, big DIY stores & the likes of Ikea were allowed to operate while NZ was a total lockdown for 5 long weeks.

A tree can take 15 years to grow to maturity but only needs an idiot with a chain-saw an hour to cut it down & kill it. Likewise, businesses.

This government has not given 1 direct cent to businesses - zero, let alone prop up businesses!

But it is what it is - now it’s a question of who has got the better plan, the experience and confidence of a majority of NZers to guide NZ out of the worse recession this country will go through.

Let the battle commences!

Balance
22-05-2020, 01:37 PM
You did not answer dobby41’s question. All you ever do is bitch about what the government has done wrong and imply that they should be doing something else. What exactly should they be doing for businesses? Give us some specific actions that would meet with your approval. Not just the same old, same old waffle. Give us a list of what you think the government should be doing?

For starters, cut back on the payout to beneficiaries - they need to work and they cannot pick and choose where and how they work. There are jobs in the agricultural, building & construction, supermarket, manufacturing, infrastructure & horticultural sectors - why does NZ use migrant workers to do those jobs?

Think this government will stray into that area and risk their votes?

Panda-NZ-
22-05-2020, 01:41 PM
For starters, cut back on the payout to beneficiaries - they need to work and they cannot pick and choose where and how they work. There are jobs in the agricultural, building & construction, supermarket, manufacturing, infrastructure & horticultural sectors - why does NZ use migrant workers to do those jobs?

Think this government will stray into that area and risk their votes?

Great way to lead into a depression and ruin confidence. thankfully these ideas are not represented in government.

Balance
22-05-2020, 01:45 PM
Great way to lead into a depression and ruin confidence. thankfully these ideas are not represented in government.

Why? Basic economics.

Panda-NZ-
22-05-2020, 01:47 PM
Why? Basic economics.

Basic economics = businesses who can't survive four weeks even with unprecendented wage subsidy should fail.

Balance
22-05-2020, 01:49 PM
Basic economics = businesses who can't survive 4 weeks even with unprecendented wage subsidy should fail.

You really have no idea about businesses & economics, do you?

I thought you would have learnt by now after your dumb comment that businesses were compensated for the lockdown by the wage subsidy!

You are sounding like Deborah Russell!

justakiwi
22-05-2020, 01:58 PM
That answer is a cop out. You would say that even without the COVID situation. So come on - put your money where your mouth is and come up with a COVID situation specific solution to back up your continual criticism of what the government is currently doing.

You are all talk and bluster.


For starters, cut back on the payout to beneficiaries - they need to work and they cannot pick and choose where and how they work. There are jobs in the agricultural, building & construction, supermarket, manufacturing, infrastructure & horticultural sectors - why does NZ use migrant workers to do those jobs?

Think this government will stray into that area and risk their votes?

Balance
22-05-2020, 02:14 PM
That answer is a cop out. You would say that even without the COVID situation. So come on - put your money where your mouth is and come up with a COVID situation specific solution to back up your continual criticism of what the government is currently doing.

You are all talk and bluster.

Nope - this is you with your prejudicial view at play.

Unusual desperate times require everyone to play their part, especially the beneficiaries.

What is wrong with requiring them to work for their welfare payments?

Panda-NZ-
22-05-2020, 02:37 PM
Business need reliable workers and only the best, most skilled will do not the lowest end. And that's ok...there is not a position for everyone who happens to be U65 sorry to burst the bubble. So it's important to do welfare in the most efficient way possible which is a basic income and this will boost consumption too.

Balance
22-05-2020, 03:04 PM
Business need reliable workers and only the best, most skilled will do not the lowest end. And that's ok...there is not a position for everyone who happens to be U65 sorry to burst the Newstalk bubble. So it's important to do welfare in the most efficient way possible which is a basic income and this will boost consumption too.

We are not talking highly skilled jobs here - but honest decent work like picking fruits, pruning fruit trees, stocking supermarket shelves during midnight, painting, car groomers, hotel cleaners etc.

Why are we using migrant workers for these jobs when those on benefits can be required to do those jobs? And if they don’t do them well intentionally, they get no payments

You haven’t answered the simple question though - why do you state that businesses have been compensated for the lockdown by the wage subsidy?

artemis
22-05-2020, 03:13 PM
...There is only Team National and policies are to benefit all New Zealanders, not just the beneficiaries which St Cindy & her incompetents are hell bent on growing & cultivating for votes.

To be fair, more help for certain sectors is ingrained ideology for Labour, though I guess they need votes to be able to carry on implementing their plan. They certainly have money now to progress that plan.

Still Mr Robertson has said borrowing will be repaid through growing the economy. More and more on the sofa ain't going to cut it.

Panda-NZ-
22-05-2020, 03:13 PM
Why are we using migrant workers for these jobs when those on benefits can be required to do those jobs? And if they don’t do them well intentionally, they get no payments


Same issue though. I'm sure recruiters will appreciate not being spammed with applications and employers having to manage these people and instead focus on their work using only highly talented people. For those who recieve the income micro-businesses and casual work becomes viable.




You haven’t answered the simple question though - why do you state that businesses have been compensated for the lockdown by the wage subsidy?

I answered this. The subsidy period = three months, lockdown = one month. Two extra months for nothing. :)

artemis
22-05-2020, 03:17 PM
....
I answered this. Subsidy period equals three months, lockdown equals one month. Two extra months for nothing.

Surely you can't possibly truly believe what you just said.

Panda-NZ-
22-05-2020, 03:19 PM
Maybe nothing at all would be better since that is the market approach some have supported in the past but are flexible on that these days. We have it pretty good here :)

artemis
22-05-2020, 03:24 PM
Until the last couple of months we had pretty much full employment. Meaning that those on the Jobseeker benefit were less likely to be employed for various reasons - location, skills, attitude.

That has changed now, many of those on welfare will be desperate to work. If there are jobs available, and that is highly problematic in the short to medium term.

Yesterday I spent time in Wellington CBD. A lot of closed premises. Nice restaurant for lunch - four customers where normally it would be buzzing. I asked how they were doing evenings, sad looks from the staff, not surprising if they close.

justakiwi
22-05-2020, 10:56 PM
I have asked you several times now to please tell us exactly what it is you expect the government to do to help businesses right now, and still you refuse to provide an answer. Your comments re beneficiaries have nothing whatsoever to do with the question I asked you. As usual you are trying to deflect.

I will ask again - what exactly do you expect the government to do for businesses? You keep saying they have done nothing, but you have not given even one example of what you believe they should be doing.

It’s a pretty straightforward and simple question, so have the balls to back your argument and answer the damned question.


Nope - this is you with your prejudicial view at play.

Unusual desperate times require everyone to play their part, especially the beneficiaries.

What is wrong with requiring them to work for their welfare payments?

artemis
23-05-2020, 07:40 AM
I have asked you several times now to please tell us exactly what it is you expect the government to do to help businesses right now, and still you refuse to provide an answer.....

It is not realistic to expect individuals to provide exact solutions to wide ranging macro problems in an economy. That is up to the government of the day, and people and Opposition can then agree or disagree, not only when solutions are announced but as results become available.

However, some, including various experts, have made suggestions. For example, the Business Advisory Council, appointed by the Prime Minister, has issued a wake up call for a reset, to include serious input from the business sector.

Will the government take note? So far there looks like a new group coming comprising academics, unions, officials, NGOs and yes, business. Good luck with that.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 07:46 AM
Will the government take note? So far there looks like a new group coming comprising academics, unions, officials, NGOs and yes, business. Good luck with that.

Also keep in mind that business sector has their own slice of the economy they want to see improve. In Australia their advisory council recommended price floors and welfare for gas exploration. dreadful. Those on these panels need to be objective and independent in their advice wherever they happen to come from. So, advice from all groups is probably a better outcome since we live in a democracy.

blackcap
23-05-2020, 07:51 AM
In Australia their advisory council recommended price floors for gas exploration. dreadful. .

Pray tell me what is so dreadful about that?

artemis
23-05-2020, 07:52 AM
Also keep in mind that 'business sector' has their own interests and corner of the economy they want to see improve. In Australia their advisory council recommended govt subsidies and price floors for gas exploration. dreadful. The people on these panels need to be objective and independent in their advice wherever they come from.

Of course they don't have to be objective and independent. Why ever would you think that?

justakiwi
23-05-2020, 07:53 AM
I would generally agree with you, but Balance has been ranting and raving, finger pointing and criticizing, and spewing forth all manner of accusations about how the government have handled the covid situation. But he has never once told us what it is that he actually wants them to do. Without that, his constant blustering is more than unconvincing. So I make no apology for asking him to back his arguments with some concrete suggestions for what he believes they should be doing (for businesses).

But I am not holding my breath because if he actually had an answer, he would have given it by now.


It is not realistic to expect individuals to provide exact solutions to wide ranging macro problems in an economy. That is up to the government of the day, and people and Opposition can then agree or disagree, not only when solutions are announced but as results become available.

However, some, including various experts, have made suggestions. For example, the Business Advisory Council, appointed by the Prime Minister, has issued a wake up call for a reset, to include serious input from the business sector.

Will the government take note? So far there looks like a new group coming comprising academics, unions, officials, NGOs and yes, business. Good luck with that.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 07:53 AM
Pray tell me what is so dreadful about that?

It's an industry with a shelf life and poor returns, otherwise they wouldn't need price floors would they.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/20/google-ai-greenpeace-oil-gas.html

Balance
23-05-2020, 07:58 AM
I have asked you several times now to please tell us exactly what it is you expect the government to do to help businesses right now, and still you refuse to provide an answer. Your comments re beneficiaries have nothing whatsoever to do with the question I asked you. As usual you are trying to deflect.

I will ask again - what exactly do you expect the government to do for businesses? You keep saying they have done nothing, but you have not given even one example of what you believe they should be doing.

It’s a pretty straightforward and simple question, so have the balls to back your argument and answer the damned question.

https://www.smallbusiness.wa.gov.au/blog/coronavirus-stimulus-package-small-business

I believe I have posted this before but if I have not, then I can understand why you keep asking the question which I believe I have answered - just look at what the Australian government has done for businesses* and for workers. Truly a government which attempts to look after ALL Australians.

Compare and contrast with NZ where businesses have been hung out to dry.

All that NZ government has to do is match what the Australian government has done as a first start. Instead, nothing has been forthcoming from NZ government.

You refuse to acknowledge that social welfare & unemployment benefits are a drain on the economy and society - isn’t it better that the billions of dollars paid out here be paid to employers (as ongoing wage subsidy) to replace the 200,000 odd temporary migrant workers in NZ?

That way, we become more self-reliant as a country and those who are unemployed (and many many more who are going to be unemployed in June/July) are gainfully engaged in the workforce.

This to me is the SINGLE biggest help any government can give to its businesses and to workers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

What Australian Federal government has provided to businesses so far :

* - Not-for-profits and small businesses with a turnover under $50 million will receive a tax-free cash payment of from $20,000 up to $100,000 to help them retain staff and continue operating.

* - Eligible small businesses that withhold income tax from employee salaries and wages and pay it to the Australian Taxation Office can receive a payment equal to 100 per cent of the amount withheld, up to a maximum payment of $50,000.

* - On 7 April 2020 the Australian Government has announced a mandatory code for commercial tenancies, to assist those impacted by the COVID-19 crisis.

blackcap
23-05-2020, 08:10 AM
It's an industry with a shelf life and poor returns, otherwise they wouldn't need price floors would they.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/20/google-ai-greenpeace-oil-gas.html

Your link said nothing about shelf life or poor returns so in effect a useless piece of information. Gas is going to be very important, especially for a country such as Australia which currently relies totally on coal for their energy generation. I could understand your argument from a NZ perspective but from Australia totally not. From memory about 50% of their energy is from coal so it would be very good for the environment if they went and found more gas, not less. Unless you are advocating that they keep burning coal to keep the lights on?

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 08:18 AM
Your link said nothing about shelf life or poor returns so in effect a useless piece of information. Gas is going to be very important, especially for a country such as Australia which currently relies totally on coal for their energy generation. I could understand your argument from a NZ perspective but from Australia totally not. From memory about 50% of their energy is from coal so it would be very good for the environment if they went and found more gas, not less. Unless you are advocating that they keep burning coal to keep the lights on?

Their business sector lacks the same innovation mindset and is stuck in the past. So the manufacturing in Australia offshored. They do have solar resources maybe the best in the world but lack the will or infrastructure to use it effectively.



This to me is the SINGLE biggest help any government can give to its businesses and to workers.

Your solution is to add even more drain? Why criticise spending when you want to increase it and take on more debt. trying to have the cake and then eat it too.

Balance
23-05-2020, 08:36 AM
Your solution is to add even more drain? Why criticise spending when you want to increase it and add more debt. you can't have the cake and eat it too.

Eh - which part of using the unemployment benefit payment as a wage subsidy to be paid ONLY if a beneficiary is working do you not understand?

The unemployment benefit has to be paid anyway - there is not one incremental cent that the government has to pay to the employer.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 08:42 AM
Eh - which part of using the unemployment benefit payment as a wage subsidy to be paid ONLY if a beneficiary is working do you not understand?

The unemployment benefit has to be paid anyway - there is not one incremental cent that the government has to pay to the employer.

So every employer in the country would get it? would it not encourage more people to threaten to lay off workers to claim this.

Balance
23-05-2020, 08:53 AM
So every employer in the country would get it? would it not encourage more people to threaten to lay off workers to claim this.

A fair point so there has to be check and balances obviously. Obviously every employer who takes on an unemployed worker in place of a temporary migrant worker will get it.

Don't worry as a Labour government loves to build up bureaucarcy - more jobs will be created to monitor the scheme, an added benefit!

justakiwi
23-05-2020, 09:31 AM
Firstly, thank you for answering the question.

Secondly, once again, your comments about beneficiaries are a side issue - not specifically related to the current situation. The argument has been around forever and neither party in government has ever managed to resolve the unemployment/benefit “issue.” Having said that, have you ever been on a benefit of any kind, but particularly unemployment? I have. I changed my job about three years ago, when I made my life decision to move into my caravan. Three months after getting that job they let me go due to an ongoing chronic cough (yep, a freaking cough) that they said was incompatible with a front line reception position. It took me more than two years to find another job after that. I applied for so many I lost count, many of which I was short listed and interviewed for. I finally managed to get my current caregiver position, which was initially only casual with no guaranteed hours. Every time I worked I had to declare my income to WINZ - in the week I earned it. One of the suckiest rules ever, as some weeks I had close to no income at all because they cut my benefit the week I worked, not the week I got paid.

Very few of us ever choose to be on a benefit. It is soul destroying and demoralising and people (like you) are always looking sideways at you, mentally criticising and judging. It is not as simple as you think and no, not everyone on a benefit is in a position to pack up and move to Nelson to pick apples for three months. There are always logistics such as leaving/or taking family with them (especially for solo parents), accommodation issues, higher cost of living in the area the work is, health considerations. These can all be legitimate considerations that restrict what jobs one can apply for/actually do. So, you have no idea of what that is like unless you have been there.

Finally, your comments re what Aussie has done. The tax free payment to businesses sounds good in theory, but it’s a straight out cash payment. Some businesses will use that to retain staff, but what’s to stop others from using it to clear debt then sell or wind up the business, which helps nobody, least of all staff. You keep saying throwing money at people is irresponsible - same applies to businesses. Targeted assistance like the job subsidy is a far better temporary form of assistance. Your second example of Aussie assistance sounds ok to me, but I’m no tax expert so I will have to take your word for it. The last one re the code for commercial tenancies - not enough info there for me to understand what that is actually providing/achieving.


https://www.smallbusiness.wa.gov.au/blog/coronavirus-stimulus-package-small-business

I believe I have posted this before but if I have not, then I can understand why you keep asking the question which I believe I have answered - just look at what the Australian government has done for businesses* and for workers. Truly a government which attempts to look after ALL Australians.

Compare and contrast with NZ where businesses have been hung out to dry.

All that NZ government has to do is match what the Australian government has done as a first start. Instead, nothing has been forthcoming from NZ government.

You refuse to acknowledge that social welfare & unemployment benefits are a drain on the economy and society - isn’t it better that the billions of dollars paid out here be paid to employers (as ongoing wage subsidy) to replace the 200,000 odd temporary migrant workers in NZ?

That way, we become more self-reliant as a country and those who are unemployed (and many many more who are going to be unemployed in June/July) are gainfully engaged in the workforce.

This to me is the SINGLE biggest help any government can give to its businesses and to workers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

What Australian Federal government has provided to businesses so far :

* - Not-for-profits and small businesses with a turnover under $50 million will receive a tax-free cash payment of from $20,000 up to $100,000 to help them retain staff and continue operating.

* - Eligible small businesses that withhold income tax from employee salaries and wages and pay it to the Australian Taxation Office can receive a payment equal to 100 per cent of the amount withheld, up to a maximum payment of $50,000.

* - On 7 April 2020 the Australian Government has announced a mandatory code for commercial tenancies, to assist those impacted by the COVID-19 crisis.

Balance
23-05-2020, 09:32 AM
Good point made this morning by one media commentator :

Outside of the crisises (where St Cindy shines), what has Labour delivered?

A party which came into power promising plenty (to get the votes) and courtesy of NZF (& hasn’t Ek storm had the time of his life running circles around the hapless Cindy) but has delivered bugger all.

Two words - Kiwibuild & CGT.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 10:10 AM
Outside of the crisises (where St Cindy shines), what has Labour delivered?



Their main achievement is not being National and doing a better job marketing NZ to the world. Her brand must be worth hundreds of millions in it's own right. Hopefully we can see some new ideas fit for the modern century and changed circumstances we have.

fungus pudding
23-05-2020, 10:50 AM
Good point made this morning by one media commentator :

Outside of the crisises (where St Cindy shines), what has Labour delivered?

A party which came into power promising plenty (to get the votes) and courtesy of NZF (& hasn’t Ek storm had the time of his life running circles around the hapless Cindy) but has delivered bugger all.

Two words - Kiwibuild & CGT.

You seem to overlook the wonderful things that Labour has brought us. e.g. Phil Twyford, Lees-Galloway, Kelvin Davis, David Clark, David Parker, and who could forget - Willie Jackson. For these MPs, we are truly blessed and should be grateful. And last but not least- the man who was going to set the world alight, but appears to have developed laryngitis - Greg O'Connor.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 10:59 AM
You seem to overlook the wonderful things that Labour has brought us. e.g. Phil Twyford, Lees-Galloway, Kelvin Davis, David Clark, David Parker, and who could forget - Willie Jackson. For these MPs, we are truly blessed and should be grateful. And last but not least- the man who was going to set the world alight, but appears to have developed laryngitis - Greg O'Connor.

Historically it's never been about the team. John was plasted over many of the billboards as will Jacinda and it won't matter.

I doubt the MP's that constitute National are more competent. They were not responsible for anything (because their mindset is to do nothing across the board) so haven't really been tested in comparison. It's easy to show up for ribbon cutting and then talk about the team.

fungus pudding
23-05-2020, 11:20 AM
Historically it's never been about the team. John was plasted over most billboard as will Jacinda and it won't matter.

I doubt the MP's that constitute National are more competent. They are not actually responsible for anything (because their mindset is to do nothing) so haven't been tested in comparison. It's easy to show up for ribbon cutting and then talk about the team.

Yet you talk about 'their' main achievement, when all along it has been 'her' achievement that sees them riding high. She is an excellent communicator, dripping with charisma, but they can't survive on that alone - and they have little else.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/04/13/the-coming-economic-crisis-and-its-political-consequences/

Balance
23-05-2020, 11:27 AM
Yet you talk about 'their' main achievement, when all along it has been 'her' achievement that sees them riding high. She is an excellent communicator, dripping with charisma, but they can't survive on that alone - and they have little else. .

Exactly - basically it’s brand Cindy vs Team National.

Comes September after the winter of discontent, what will brand Cindy show for the 3 years of being in government? As Bob Jones wrote, the record unemployment and business failures will sweep Cindy & her incompetents out.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 11:42 AM
Exactly - basically it’s brand Cindy vs Team National.

Comes September after the winter of discontent, what will brand Cindy show for the 3 years of being in government? As Bob Jones wrote, the record unemployment and business failures will sweep Cindy & her incompetents out.

We are likely to come out of this in world leading shape in almost all aspects, why risk the change?

blackcap
23-05-2020, 11:44 AM
Exactly - basically it’s brand Cindy vs Team National.

Comes September after the winter of discontent, what will brand Cindy show for the 3 years of being in government? As Bob Jones wrote, the record unemployment and business failures will sweep Cindy & her incompetents out.

They won't be swept out in September though. That comes about 2 months too early especially with the extended wage subsidy.

I just managed to pick up some National provide next prime minister at $8.00 at betfair.com. That is the odds at the moment on National getting in. Not looking good at all. But I thought $8.00 was a bit rich and will be able to get out of that bet and trade it at a lower price somewhere down the line.

macduffy
23-05-2020, 01:47 PM
We are likely to come out of this in world leading shape in almost all aspects, why risk the change?

Because, with any luck, New Zealand is unlikely to suffer another term of disasters such as endured recently and is more likely to need sound government, than star-quality empathy.

fungus pudding
23-05-2020, 02:07 PM
We are likely to come out of this in world leading shape in almost all aspects, why risk the change?

Because it is less of a risk than leaving the economy to such a nugatory dead-beat assorted collection of riff-raff misfits.

Balance
23-05-2020, 02:17 PM
Because it is less of a risk than leaving the economy to such a nugatory dead-beat assorted collection of riff-raff misfits.

Learnt a new word 'nugatory' today - thanks. And agreed, hard to get a more useless bunch of economic incompetents who have failed to deliver anything.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 02:23 PM
Learnt a new word 'nugatory' today - thanks. And agreed, hard to get a more useless bunch of economic incompetents who have failed to deliver anything.

They have delivered a covid-free NZ and allieviated a recession/depression. The only reasonable response is to thank Cindy for saving lives (including yours) jobs and other minor things like those.

Balance
23-05-2020, 02:34 PM
They have delivered a covid free NZ and allieviated a recession/depression. The appropriate response is to thank Cindy for saving lives (including yours) jobs and other things.

If she had acted earlier (like Taiwan), we would not have needed the self-acknowledged 'strictest' job-destructive lockdown in the world.

I have higher expectations than what have been delivered.

Panda-NZ-
23-05-2020, 02:35 PM
So we are in second place rather than first, a hardly relevant issue considering what else is going on in the world. I guaruntee Nats would have kept the borders open (simon only said he wouldn't after the fact). They have opposed extending the lockdown time and again.

fungus pudding
23-05-2020, 03:29 PM
They have delivered a covid-free NZ and allieviated a recession/depression. The only reasonable response is to thank Cindy for saving lives (including yours) jobs and other minor things like those.

You do not know if they have alleviated or elevated a recession or depression. You do not know if they have saved lives, or cost lives. I do not know either. Nobody knows or can possibly know for ten years or more. We do know that they have cost jobs. Whatever course of action taken was a gamble. I take my hat off to her for sticking to the decision they made and for fronting the campaign in the bold manner she did. But that does not deserve thanks.

artemis
23-05-2020, 03:53 PM
You do not know if they have alleviated or elevated a recession or depression. You do not know if they have saved lives, or cost lives. I do not know either. Nobody knows or can possibly know for ten years or more. We do know that they have cost jobs. Whatever course of action taken was a gamble. I take my hat off to her for sticking to the decision they made and for fronting the campaign in the bold manner she did. But that does not deserve thanks.

There is a detailed guest post on Kiwiblog today reviewing official UK EMR (excess mortalities rate). Worth a read.

fungus pudding
23-05-2020, 04:17 PM
There is a detailed guest post on Kiwiblog today reviewing official UK EMR (excess mortalities rate). Worth a read.

I presume this is the url you mean?

https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2020/05/guest_post_excess_non-covid19_deaths.html

artemis
23-05-2020, 04:39 PM
I presume this is the url you mean?

https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2020/05/guest_post_excess_non-covid19_deaths.html

Yes, that's the one. I was going to add a summary but the phone rang. Interesting that some countries produce this data weekly. I had a quick look here on the Stats site, but couldn't see anything v recent. (They are fast and helpful in responding to web requests. A good service.)

What do you think?

fungus pudding
23-05-2020, 05:07 PM
Yes, that's the one. I was going to add a summary but the phone rang. Interesting that some countries produce this data weekly. I had a quick look here on the Stats site, but couldn't see anything v recent. (They are fast and helpful in responding to web requests. A good service.)

What do you think?

Let you know in 2035. March.

RTM
24-05-2020, 08:42 AM
Very few of us ever choose to be on a benefit. It is soul destroying and demoralising and people......

If that were true New Zealand would be a much better place. For some people / multiple generations, believe it or not, it is a career.
That is one of the reasons I have voted for National (once or twice) in the past...as I thought they had a better plan to break the cycle.

justakiwi
24-05-2020, 09:04 AM
Yes, you are correct that some beneficiaries are as you describe. But the vast majority are not. It really bothers me that my fellow Kiwis still hold onto this false belief and judge people based on a few. As I said before, walk in the shoes I once walked in, and then come back and tell me I was a bludger for needing and accepting social assistance.

And btw, National never solved any of these problems either. No more than they solved our horrific child abuse/domestic violence problems. Both governments have tried, but sometimes there are simply no solutions. As someone who worked for CYF for eight years (not a social worker) I can attest to that.


If that were true New Zealand would be a much better place. For some people / multiple generations, believe it or not, it is a career.
That is one of the reasons I have voted for National (once or twice) in the past...as I thought they had a better plan to break the cycle.

Panda-NZ-
24-05-2020, 09:06 AM
If that were true New Zealand would be a much better place. For some people / multiple generations, believe it or not, it is a career.
That is one of the reasons I have voted for National (once or twice) in the past...as I thought they had a better plan to break the cycle.

Bill turned it into effectively a basic income and ignored long term recipients. There was no serious attempt to fix it and there maybe shouldn't be. It's only marketing and optics.

artemis
24-05-2020, 09:18 AM
If that were true New Zealand would be a much better place. For some people / multiple generations, believe it or not, it is a career...

And can be a career supplemented by the very large black and grey economy. Conservatively estimated at around $20 billion a year.

Balance
24-05-2020, 09:58 AM
Yes, you are correct that some beneficiaries are as you describe. But the vast majority are not. It really bothers me that my fellow Kiwis still hold onto this false belief and judge people based on a few. As I said before, walk in the shoes I once walked in, and then come back and tell me I was a bludger for needing and accepting social assistance.

And btw, National never solved any of these problems either. No more than they solved our horrific child abuse/domestic violence problems. Both governments have tried, but sometimes there are simply no solutions. As someone who worked for CYF for eight years (not a social worker) I can attest to that.

Nope - we do not judge people based upon a few. There is simply NO excuse for NZ to require 200,000+ workers on temporary work visas when we have unemployment of over 100,000+ in 2019. That tells us a lot about most of the unemployed and the beneficiaries.

As to child abuse/domestic violence - there is a solution and it is to lock away those who perpetuate such dastardly deeds against vulnerable children & women, instead of the law protecting the perpetuators. And let's not get into the BS debate about rehabilitation etc etc of those bad eggs - they are beyond redemption. Too many lily-hearted judges and welfare workers in NZ.

westerly
24-05-2020, 11:10 AM
And can be a career supplemented by the very large black and grey economy. Conservatively estimated at around $20 billion a year.

Who made the estimate?

westerly

fungus pudding
24-05-2020, 11:20 AM
Who made the estimate?

westerly

Nobody. There are various estimates from qualified sources as you well know. Of course it is impossible to verify any estimates.
Here is one from a knowledgeable source for example that suggest $1 billion. That's at the low end of the various estimates (ignoring those that can be considered to be little more than a guess).

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12045113

artemis
24-05-2020, 12:00 PM
Who made the estimate?
Westerly

Various estimates, various sources. The IMF reckoned a few years back the other economy is about 12% of NZ GDP. The $1billion mentioned by FP is one estimate of tax lost to the system not the size of the shadow economy. Other estimates are in the order of $7billion lost tax.

Regardless there is a large amount of tax not paid, a good reason to reduce income tax and increase consumption tax.

fungus pudding
24-05-2020, 12:33 PM
Various estimates, various sources. The IMF reckoned a few years back the other economy is about 12% of NZ GDP. The $1billion mentioned by FP is one estimate of tax lost to the system not the size of the shadow economy. Other estimates are in the order of $7billion lost tax.

Regardless there is a large amount of tax not paid, a good reason to reduce income tax and increase consumption tax.

I agree with that bit. 'Never punish a man for earning - better to clobber him for spending.' A Fungus maxim.

westerly
24-05-2020, 01:07 PM
Nobody. There are various estimates from qualified sources as you well know. Of course it is impossible to verify any estimates.
Here is one from a knowledgeable source for example that suggest $1 billion. That's at the low end of the various estimates (ignoring those that can be considered to be little more than a guess).

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12045113

As a cynic I would suggest maybe the accountants were first looking to increase their business, but I could be wrong.
Anyway the post I was querying seem to imply that beneficiarys were responsible for the tax losses of the grey economy. Again I could be wrong but as a cynic I will still regard any opinion expressed by a economist working for a bank, a real estate agent or anyone else lobbying for their own interests as worthy of scrutiny.

westerly

artemis
24-05-2020, 01:21 PM
As a cynic I would suggest maybe the accountants were first looking to increase their business, but I could be wrong.
Anyway the post I was querying seem to imply that beneficiarys were responsible for the tax losses of the grey economy. Again I could be wrong but as a cynic I will still regard any opinion expressed by a economist working for a bank, a real estate agent or anyone else lobbying for their own interests as worthy of scrutiny.

westerly

A lot of cashies happen, legal and definitely not. Mostly small fry I would think, but some not small. Common enough among beneficiaries in my experience, simply because they have low income and spare time. If as expected there is a large increase in Jobseeker beneficiaries, it would not be at all surprising if some undertook cash work to pay some of the bills and eat. Tax revenue lost due to lost job and also under the table work.

BlackPeter
24-05-2020, 01:39 PM
As to child abuse/domestic violence - there is a solution and it is to lock away those who perpetuate such dastardly deeds against vulnerable children & women, instead of the law protecting the perpetuators. And let's not get into the BS debate about rehabilitation etc etc of those bad eggs - they are beyond redemption. Too many lily-hearted judges and welfare workers in NZ.

When did you move into the Trump camp? Lock them up and throw the key away ... sounds like a pretty stupid strategy which doesn't work anywhere in the world. Trump land has one of the highest murder rates in the civilized world despite locking up (or even killing) offenders as well as wrongly accused innocent people for longer than anybody else. Locking up more people does not fix their murder rate, it makes it worse.

You want to turn NZ into a mini Trump land? No - thanks. Enough idiot nations around, we don't need to be as dumb as they are.

Child abuse is a complex problem and driven by issues like poverty, substance abuse, by abusers having been previously the victim as child him/herself, by mental illness but as well by our legislation implementing brain dead so called progressive ideas (anti slapping bill) basically forbidding any disciplining of children. I guess at some stage some of the suffering parents are just exploding.

Simple solutions like lock the offenders up don't work, I am afraid. Sorry to learn you turned a populist.

fungus pudding
24-05-2020, 01:44 PM
A lot of cashies happen, legal and definitely not. Mostly small fry I would think, but some not small. Common enough among beneficiaries in my experience, simply because they have low income and spare time. If as expected there is a large increase in Jobseeker beneficiaries, it would not be at all surprising if some undertook cash work to pay some of the bills and eat. Tax revenue lost due to lost job and also under the table work.

The term 'cashies' is so misleading for what it implies, it's best not used. There is nothing wrong with paying bills in cash, or with accepting payment in cash.

jonu
24-05-2020, 02:26 PM
When did you move into the Trump camp? Lock them up and throw the key away ... sounds like a pretty stupid strategy which doesn't work anywhere in the world. Trump land has one of the highest murder rates in the civilized world despite locking up (or even killing) offenders as well as wrongly accused innocent people for longer than anybody else. Locking up more people does not fix their murder rate, it makes it worse.

You want to turn NZ into a mini Trump land? No - thanks. Enough idiot nations around, we don't need to be as dumb as they are.

Child abuse is a complex problem and driven by issues like poverty, substance abuse, by abusers having been previously the victim as child him/herself, by mental illness but as well by our legislation implementing brain dead so called progressive ideas (anti slapping bill) basically forbidding any disciplining of children. I guess at some stage some of the suffering parents are just exploding.

Simple solutions like lock the offenders up don't work, I am afraid. Sorry to learn you turned a populist.

Everything is about Trump with you BP. You are fixated with him. The US had a high level of incarceration long before Trump came along. Remember how Obama was going to close Guantanamo?

artemis
24-05-2020, 02:32 PM
The term 'cashies' is so misleading for what it implies, it's best not used. There is nothing wrong with paying bills in cash, or with accepting payment in cash.

IRD uses the term, and its meaning is widely understood. Agree nothing wrong with paying or receiving cash.

fungus pudding
24-05-2020, 03:35 PM
IRD uses the term, and its meaning is widely understood. Agree nothing wrong with paying or receiving cash.

It's meaning is actually widely misunderstood. Obviously you use it, but I never would. I avoid anything ambiguous.

blackcap
24-05-2020, 03:50 PM
Everything is about Trump with you BP. You are fixated with him. The US had a high level of incarceration long before Trump came along. Remember how Obama was going to close Guantanamo?

BP has lost the plot when it comes to Trump. He has what is called TDS. Suffers from it bigly. On stocks though he makes very good and valid points. The US incarceration rate like you say has nothing to do with Trump.

BlackPeter
24-05-2020, 04:15 PM
BP has lost the plot when it comes to Trump. He has what is called TDS. Suffers from it bigly. On stocks though he makes very good and valid points. The US incarceration rate like you say has nothing to do with Trump.

Funny post. Think about it - you normally provide reasonable posts if its not about politics. Unfortunately the alt right seems to have brainwashed you and took your critical thinking and your values. The silly name you invent for people who disagree with the crook (TDS?) does have another name - it is called judgement, it is the ability to distinguish between right and wrong.

I assume you once learned from your parents the difference between right and wrong as well? Sad you lost it.

And now you are supporting a spineless liar and crook who is killing his people. Admittedly - we don't know whether this is because he is dumb or because he is mean. I assume both is true. Makes me shudder if I think about his supporters. The same ilk who used to support previously Franco, Mussolini, Hitler and other monsters and who is supporting idiots like Bolsonaro and Johnson. No questions asked. But I understand - probably hard to ask questions for somebody already deep in their intestines, isn't it? What do you get for your services?

Shame on you and up on the ignore list you go.

blackcap
24-05-2020, 04:29 PM
Shame on you and up on the ignore list you go.

Bit of a shame you would do that BP. But its a free world and you can do what you like. I for one will never put anyone on an ignore list, especially not on an online forum. I am a firm believer in free speech and also that everyone's opinion is valid no matter where they come from or what beliefs they hold. Even those that are an anathema to mine. By ignoring people you tend to isolate in a circle jerk of like minded thinking and miss a lot of diversity.

dobby41
25-05-2020, 07:13 AM
It's meaning is actually widely misunderstood. Obviously you use it, but I never would. I avoid anything ambiguous.

The term is well understood.
If a [erson is asked by a tradie if you want a 'cashie' they well understand the implication - under the counter payment with no tax paid.

fungus pudding
25-05-2020, 07:26 AM
The term is well understood.
If a person is asked by a tradie if you want a 'cashie' they well understand the implication - under the counter payment with no tax paid.

To which I say that most people think there is something either illegal, or at best highly suspicious, about paying your lawnmower contractor, or any other home services in cash. And it is not.
And it's perfectly reasonable for said lawnmower man to offer a cash discount to avoid sending an account, waiting, risking a bad debt, etc.
But I acknowledge what 'cash' implies to some people (not everyone is an honest willing taxpayer - like me). So I still say the term is best avoided.

artemis
25-05-2020, 08:06 AM
To which I say that most people think there is something either illegal, or at best highly suspicious, about paying your lawnmower contractor, or any other home services in cash. And it is not.
And it's perfectly reasonable for said lawnmower man to offer a cash discount to avoid sending an account, waiting, risking a bad debt, etc.
But I acknowledge what 'cash' implies to some people (not everyone is an honest willing taxpayer - like me). So I still say the term is best avoided.

The term is 'cashie', not 'cash'. It's shorthand, long since well established in the vernacular. Language is like that.

dobby41
25-05-2020, 08:12 AM
To which I say that most people think there is something either illegal, or at best highly suspicious, about paying your lawnmower contractor, or any other home services in cash. And it is not.

Paying cash is not illegal - agreed.
The term 'cashie' does not mean just to pay cash and you know that, everyone else knows that also.

fungus pudding
25-05-2020, 08:13 AM
The term is 'cashie', not 'cash'. It's shorthand, long since well established in the vernacular. Language is like that.

I'm obviously naive in such matters, having spent a lifetime moving only in circles of the upright and honest.

blackcap
25-05-2020, 12:45 PM
Paying cash is not illegal - agreed.
The term 'cashie' does not mean just to pay cash and you know that, everyone else knows that also.

Yeah a "cashie" is when you do or offer a job/service without the implications of tax? That's what I have always thought. A "cashie" circumvents the tax man.

Paying your invoice by cash, well that is another story altogether.

macduffy
25-05-2020, 01:39 PM
I'm obviously naive in such matters, having spent a lifetime moving only in circles of the upright and honest.

Is that geometrically possible?

;)

Afterthought: Or should that be "Is that possible, geometrically?"

fungus pudding
25-05-2020, 02:04 PM
Is that geometrically possible?

;)

Afterthought: Or should that be "Is that possible, geometrically?"

It is geopossallymetrical.

Joshuatree
25-05-2020, 06:45 PM
So we are in second place rather than first, a hardly relevant issue considering what else is going on in the world. I guaruntee Nats would have kept the borders open (simon only said he wouldn't after the fact). They have opposed extending the lockdown time and again.

I would bet that and im not a betting man! We would be a bit like poor old blighty perish the thought, too horrible to contemplate. Staying with winners a winning strategy.

Balance
25-05-2020, 07:45 PM
I would bet that and im not a betting man! We would be a bit like poor old blighty perish the thought, too horrible to contemplate. Staying with winners a winning strategy.

Kiwibuild?

Phil Twyford.

David Clark.

Lees Galloway.

Clare Curran.

What a winning team! 🤣

Joshuatree
25-05-2020, 07:49 PM
Clare Curran is leaving, the others i back because they learn from their mistakes.You will never learn form yours because you never make any LOL.

Balance
25-05-2020, 07:58 PM
Clare Curran is leaving, the others i back because they learn from their mistakes.You will never learn form yours because you never make any LOL.

Impossible to teach self-entitled already-arrogant-one-term 'winners' new tricks.

Capital Gains Tax, anyone?

Allowing criminals to stay in NZ, anyone?

stoploss
25-05-2020, 08:30 PM
Kiwibuild?

Phil Twyford.

David Clark.

Lees Galloway.

Clare Curran.

What a winning team! 藍

I think Kelvin Davis will be very upset to miss your list . Deputy leader of the Labour party and Minister of tourism ...our biggest earner , he has been absent like David Clark and certainly deviod of any plans to kickstart the industry imo.

Balance
25-05-2020, 09:40 PM
I think Kelvin Davis will be very upset to miss your list . Deputy leader of the Labour party and Minister of tourism ...our biggest earner , he has been absent like David Clark and certainly deviod of any plans to kickstart the industry imo.

My bad!

Absolutely have to add him to the list.

Kelvin Davis.

Phil Twyford.

David Clark.

Lees Galloway.

Clare Curran.

Worthy of mention : Deborah Russell.

Panda-NZ-
26-05-2020, 10:15 AM
Impossible to teach self-entitled already-arrogant-one-term 'winners' new tricks.



Hekia parata, maggie barrie, gerry brownlee, nick smith etc

Sir Ten
26-05-2020, 10:23 AM
"Voters seek return to common sense in revolt against political correctness" - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-seek-return-to-common-sense-in-revolt-against-political-correctness-8x8kzcnd8?shareToken=5c74850f4f8279993114e7b8505ff 334

"59% agreed that ‘the police spend too much time investigating things that are not politically correct, when they should be focused on other priorities’"... road blocks in Northland anyone?

Hopefully a movement that gains some traction here

jonu
26-05-2020, 10:47 AM
"Voters seek return to common sense in revolt against political correctness" - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-seek-return-to-common-sense-in-revolt-against-political-correctness-8x8kzcnd8?shareToken=5c74850f4f8279993114e7b8505ff 334

"59% agreed that ‘the police spend too much time investigating things that are not politically correct, when they should be focused on other priorities’"... road blocks in Northland anyone?

Hopefully a movement that gains some traction here

Agreed'

It would be interesting to see what the poll results would have been if conducted in a public space by show of hands. I'll bet the pressure to be PC would have extorted a very different result.