Labour / NZ First Government

[westerly]

Waste of time, clinging to the past with either party. Times and circumstances change, parties policies change as do the MPs. That is why I'm a swinging voter, as objective voters should be. The current difference between National and Labour is really what matters. And that main difference is Labour is over-run with bleeding heart dreamers of little world experience, while National has people of real life experience, although there are a couple of exceptions in both main parties. Neither party will ever get it all right, annd even the worst parties seem to do the odd sensible thing. Your blind acceptance of Labour's every move, and constant disapproval of National's every utterance, has destroyed your credibility.

Agree with your first 4 sentences. The main difference is National is overun with followers of leave it to the markets, lower taxes(a constant National theme ) lower costs and reduce core Govt. services policies resulting in an ever widening gap between the rich and the poor.
One area where Labour is open to criticism is their winter power handout. The grant should be made to a power company account and not just handed out in cash.

westerly

[artemis]

....
One area where Labour is open to criticism is their winter power handout. The grant should be made to a power company account and not just handed out in cash.

westerly

Nice idea. Let's have a guess at the cost of the systems, processes, staff, office space etc etc to do this. And costs for each power co as well as for MSD. Bearing in mind people go on and off benefit sometimes multiple times in a year, change addresses, go into (and out of) care, change power companies, leave the country for long or short periods, die. Probably a few more I haven't thought of.

And why? Because a few people might prefer to spend the money on extra blankets and a few bottles of Johnnie.

[westerly]

Nice idea. Let's have a guess at the cost of the systems, processes, staff, office space etc etc to do this. And costs for each power co as well as for MSD. Bearing in mind people go on and off benefit sometimes multiple times in a year, change addresses, go into (and out of) care, change power companies, leave the country for long or short periods, die. Probably a few more I haven't thought of.

And why? Because a few people might prefer to spend the money on extra blankets and a few bottles of Johnnie.

When you apply you give a power account number. With computers shouldn't be too hard. And if you live in the park tough, apply to W&I

westerly

[blackcap]

When you apply you give a power account number. With computers shouldn't be too hard. And if you live in the park tough, apply to W&I

westerly

You forget many of our most vunerable and in need to not have power account numbers....

[elZorro]

Nice chart EZ

Suppose the columns will start getting taller again .....yes?

Not if GDP keeps going up, which is why National's report card doesn't look so bad. It looks like they've started paying off crown debt, but I don't think they ever did. They were borrowing more to pay the interest on the borrowing, last I heard. National relied a fair bit on an increased population to help with the GDP figures, as there was more turnover and of course the higher house prices, with asset inflation.

I will continue to post the updated chart, no problem. A casual observer can see that National's rule of thumb is for Crown Debt to hover at 30% of GDP, and there is a similar higher unemployment rate they prefer. They make these changes every time they get in. They'll only have to wait another nine years, and they can try it again, see if they get a different result.

[Zaphod]

When you apply you give a power account number. With computers shouldn't be too hard. And if you live in the park tough, apply to W&I

westerly

Yes, although seemingly modest changes can result in costly and time consuming development work, especially when they need to be rushed. Regardless of the automation, staff still need to be trained, reports developed, processes documented; it's all rather complicated and time consuming.

[fungus pudding]

You forget many of our most vunerable and in need to not have power account numbers....

Which makes me wonder why it's called a power bonus. It's simply a winter bonus. Can be spent on warming-whisky, or jersey, lotto tickets or coal, wood or toothpaste.

[Joshuatree]

Whatever.The coalition is treating them as equals, sensible, rational, human beings not disposable unvalued dipsticks. They can warm themselves AND get that little extra treat; warming whisky sounds great, a finger sipped can last a while and warm the cockles of ones heart and fire up the imagination.

[macduffy]

Think of it as a political loyalty bonus, fungus!

;)

[fungus pudding]

Think of it as a political loyalty bonus, fungus!

;)

Loyal! I'm a poltical slut.

[Joshuatree]

Pretty revolting post. Mentioning National and this sick US idiot in one sentence is like saying that Labour is worse than the bubonic plague.

JT - You should be ashamed of yourself, if you still have any decency. Given that your posts compute less and less will I put you on ignore. Waste of time.

Truth hurts huh.Trump lies and so did English and Joyce, theres the connection.They saw it work and used it. But its just politics some say, yeah right on national TV looking your country in the eye,Tui.

[iceman]

Think of it as a political loyalty bonus, fungus!

;)

And that is exactly what it is. A bribe handed out to many thousands of people that don’t need it. This is s typical Labour and NZ First waste
of taxpayers money Merry Christmas to you all

[fungus pudding]

And that is exactly what it is. A bribe handed out to many thousands of people that don’t need it. This is s typical Labour and NZ First waste
of taxpayers money Merry Christmas to you all

Of course it is. Pure irresponsible nonsense. Nevertheless, I'll have my bit back thanks - although I note Taxcinda says we can opt out. At least she's got a sense of humour. Merry Christmas to all - including Muslims, Jedis and Atheists. :p

[elZorro]

Of course it is. Pure irresponsible nonsense. Nevertheless, I'll have my bit back thanks - although I note Taxcinda says we can opt out. At least she's got a sense of humour. Merry Christmas to all - including Muslims, Jedis and Atheists. :p

Yes, Merry Christmas to everybody, it's been a great year!

[iceman]

While I did not share many political views with Jim Anderton I had a huge respect for this towering figure in NZ politics on the left for many decades. He was a man of integrity and a good MP & minister in the roles he served. His legacy is without a question in my mind the successful start of Kiwibank. My condolences to his family.

[BlackPeter]

While I did not share many political views with Jim Anderton I had a huge respect for this towering figure in NZ politics on the left for many decades. He was a man of integrity and a good MP & minister in the roles he served. His legacy is without a question in my mind the successful start of Kiwibank. My condolences to his family.

Well said - I second that!

[elZorro]

While I did not share many political views with Jim Anderton I had a huge respect for this towering figure in NZ politics on the left for many decades. He was a man of integrity and a good MP & minister in the roles he served. His legacy is without a question in my mind the successful start of Kiwibank. My condolences to his family.

Yes, it was sad to hear Jim Anderton has passed away. He's made a great contribution to NZ, that's for sure.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97315586/Former-Deputy-Prime-Minister-and-Christ-Church-Cathedral-campaigner-Jim-Anderton-dies

[winner69]

Suppose the plan all along was to booost landlords / property investors riches

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/100485600/student-allowance-boost-blamed-for-rent-spikes

[artemis]

Suppose the plan all along was to booost landlords / property investors riches

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/100485600/student-allowance-boost-blamed-for-rent-spikes

Heh. Seems to be working well then, and will work even better for landlords who stick around in the business. At least until all these new affordable homes come on stream.

Meantime ...

[Joshuatree]

Yes, it was sad to hear Jim Anderton has passed away. He's made a great contribution to NZ, that's for sure.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97315586/Former-Deputy-Prime-Minister-and-Christ-Church-Cathedral-campaigner-Jim-Anderton-dies

Yes what great role model he was to us all,RIP Jim.

[huxley]

Just wait for the howls from New Zealand’s right wing...

[fungus pudding]

Sell Sell SELL................. Get out of the market NOW ( before it's too late! :t_up:


http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/2d02dc2b/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-pregnant-winston-peters-to-step-in-as-acting-pm.html

Winnie will be licking his chops.

[minimoke]

Six weeks maternity leave is all that is required. Excellent Time to roll back those entitlements.

[777]

Just wait for the howls from New Zealand’s right wing...

Another idiot statement from the left. Shows your immature thinking.

[777]

Six weeks maternity leave is all that is required. Excellent Time to roll back those entitlements.

DO you really think she will need this. I am sure she will be on full pay throughout.

[iceman]

Maybe she told Winnie during the "negotiations" that he'd get to steer all alone for 6 weeks in the first year. A bauble he would not have been able to resist

[minimoke]

DO you really think she will need this. I am sure she will be on full pay throughout.
We dont have means testing so "need" doesnt come into it.

I would hope she leads by example. That is have a planned baby and the income to raise child without assistance from taxpayer.

[Vagabond47]

Another idiot statement from the left. Shows your immature thinking.

No, he was just predicting the entirely predictable. And sure enough he was right. i have seen many right wingers have a good old moan about it on other forums, you'd almost think they were pushing a baby out. :)

[fungus pudding]

No, he was just predicting the entirely predictable. And sure enough he was right. i have seen many right wingers have a good old moan about it on other forums, you'd almost think they were pushing a baby out. :)

How do you know they were 'right wingers'? Even 'left wingers' have opinions.

[justakiwi]

No, he was just predicting the entirely predictable. And sure enough he was right. i have seen many right wingers have a good old moan about it on other forums, you'd almost think they were pushing a baby out. :)

Exactly. I made a point of checking in here in anticipation of the predictable Jacinda/Labour/women bashing from the usual people and of course they didn’t disappoint.

[Vagabond47]

How do you know they were 'right wingers'? Even 'left wingers' have opinions.

Err, when they bleat and moan about how good we had it under JK etc and how the new "socialist rabble will tax us to ruin".. well, 2 + 2 and all.

[fungus pudding]

Err, when they bleat and moan about how good we had it under JK etc and how the new "socialist rabble will tax us to ruin".. well, 2 + 2 and all.

Don't think that's got much to do with the current situation.

[Vagabond47]

No, but it was entirely predictable how they would react.

[fungus pudding]

No, but it was entirely predictable how they would react.

How who would react? And what did 'they' do?

[777]

Exactly. I made a point of checking in here in anticipation of the predictable Jacinda/Labour/women bashing from the usual people and of course they didn’t disappoint.

Should you have any comprehension ability then please point out any adverse comment about the event on this thread.

[justakiwi]

Should you have any comprehension ability then please point out any adverse comment about the event on this thread.

More than one negative comment about Winston filling in when Jacinda has her baby. Several comments about her proposal to only take 6 weeks leave (the choice she chooses to make for herself has no bearing on what other parents may feel they need) and not one congratulatory/positive comment on her announcement.

My comprehension ability is fine thanks.

[huxley]

Should you have any comprehension ability then please point out any adverse comment about the event on this thread.

Yes dear 777, it’s been quite the nonevent over on this thread hasn’t it? I commend you on your restraint today, well done! Meanwhile the fine readership over at the News Talk ZB and The Daily Mail did not disappoint :)

[777]

More than one negative comment about Winston filling in when Jacinda has her baby. Several comments about her proposal to only take 6 weeks leave (the choice she chooses to make for herself has no bearing on what other parents may feel they need) and not one congratulatory/positive comment on her announcement.

My comprehension ability is fine thanks.

As i said ,and you did not comprehend, where on this thread, repeat, on this thread.

The reference by me as to "need" was referring to my opinion that she will remain on full pay for the six weeks so will not "need" "get" "be entitled to" (use what ever you want) to parental leave pay. I am sure you will twist this to provide the negativity you so thrive on.

Personally I say good luck to her.

You guys are getting easier by the day to upset.

[777]

Yes dear 777, it’s been quite the nonevent over on this thread hasn’t it? I commend you on your restraint today, well done! Meanwhile the fine readership over at the News Talk ZB and The Daily Mail did not disappoint :)

No restraint needed. People are either very happy for her or just don't give a toss either way.

I have to ask though, how did you decide the political leanings of the contributers on the radio and rag you stated?

[huxley]

fundamental analysis

[iceman]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/100542696/ngi-tahu-and-tainui-receive-370-million-in-treaty-payment-topups-with-more-to-come

Disgusted Never ending gravy train and no such thing as "full and final".

[peat]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/100542696/ngi-tahu-and-tainui-receive-370-million-in-treaty-payment-topups-with-more-to-come

Disgusted Never ending gravy train and no such thing as "full and final".

putting this in the Labour/NZ First govt thread is incorrect - I quote from the article

The clauses, agreed by the National Government of the day, were to induce the two iwi to become the first to settle and to ensure they were not disadvantaged, but have become something of a millstone around successive Governments' necks.



I do think that the current govt should have announced this to the public.
Moreso the recipient Ngai Tahu Holdings should have announced it to their entire iwi.

[iceman]

putting this in the Labour/NZ First govt thread is incorrect - I quote from the article

The clauses, agreed by the National Government of the day, were to induce the two iwi to become the first to settle and to ensure they were not disadvantaged, but have become something of a millstone around successive Governments' necks.



I do think that the current govt should have announced this to the public.
Moreso the recipient Ngai Tahu Holdings should have announced it to their entire iwi.

Not sure what thread would have been better as this is the current political thread Peat. I am well aware that the National lead Government is at least equally responsible for this. Doesn't change the fact that I think this has gone so far beyond what was intended with the "$ 1Billion fiscal envelope" Doug Graham sold voters that it is a complete joke. These are big numbers and should be reported by the Government and recipients as you correctly point out.

[elZorro]

Not sure what thread would have been better as this is the current political thread Peat. I am well aware that the National lead Government is at least equally responsible for this. Doesn't change the fact that I think this has gone so far beyond what was intended with the "$ 1Billion fiscal envelope" Doug Graham sold voters that it is a complete joke. These are big numbers and should be reported by the Government and recipients as you correctly point out.

Yes, the amounts are big, but what value in current terms do you put on the land that was confiscated in the 1860s? I'm sure the money will be well spent in the system, it'll employ people too. Tainui and Ngai Tahu have both become economic powerhouses in their regions.

http://newzealandwars.co.nz/invasion-waikato-150-years/

Jacinda and Clarke on TV1 this morning, two smart people sharing their thoughts on the future. It'll be a lot of work, but they have the energy for it.

[peat]

Not sure what thread would have been better as this is the current political thread Peat.
Fair enough iceman, I accept the expedience - but my point needed to be made.

[iceman]

Yes, the amounts are big, but what value in current terms do you put on the land that was confiscated in the 1860s? I'm sure the money will be well spent in the system, it'll employ people too. Tainui and Ngai Tahu have both become economic powerhouses in their regions.

http://newzealandwars.co.nz/invasion-waikato-150-years/



It doesn't matter EZ what I think the value is or should have been. We were told the settlements were "full and final". They are anything but and seem to just go on and on with no end in sight. I agree Tainui and Ngai Tahu are now large and reasonably well run organisations/corporations. They don't need any more corporate welfare from the Government

[minimoke]

Yes, the amounts are big, but what value in current terms do you put on the land that was confiscated in the 1860s? I'm sure the money will be well spent in the system, it'll employ people too. Tainui and Ngai Tahu have both become economic powerhouses in their regions.

http://newzealandwars.co.nz/invasion-waikato-150-years/

Jacinda and Clarke on TV1 this morning, two smart people sharing their thoughts on the future. It'll be a lot of work, but they have the energy for it.
Yeah. Its going to be really tough for them. Jacinda on a great income. Got a chauffeur driven car. People to organise her diary. Poor old Clarke though - wont be able to fish so often. Thats got to be tough.

[tim23]

No restraint needed. People are either very happy for her or just don't give a toss either way.

I have to ask though, how did you decide the political leanings of the contributers on the radio and rag you stated?

Its actually really easy; Hosking and Richardson are a good starting point the right are welcome to them!

[777]

Its actually really easy; Hosking and Richardson are a good starting point the right are welcome to them!

Comprehension not your strong point either. Reread the posts to find I was referring to those that were ringing talk back and being categorised by huxley as "left and were happy" and "right and were not happy" about the news.

His reply was not worth acknowledging.

[huxley]

Comprehension not your strong point either. Reread the posts to find I was referring to those that were ringing talk back and being categorised by huxley as "left and were happy" and "right and were not happy" about the news.

His reply was not worth acknowledging.

Fair enough, and I was trolling. But then this thread is pretty ridiculous.

[elZorro]

It doesn't matter EZ what I think the value is or should have been. We were told the settlements were "full and final". They are anything but and seem to just go on and on with no end in sight. I agree Tainui and Ngai Tahu are now large and reasonably well run organisations/corporations. They don't need any more corporate welfare from the Government

No, they were not full and final. In particular, there was another settlement for Tainui over the Waikato River, that was left out of the first settlement, and well flagged at the time (since processed). The 1Bill cap would also have been flagged, but inflation has caught up with it.

Those Treasury boffins love their equations and models. Sometimes they don't get them right, though.

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/2b182ef0/robertson-s-rocket-for-treasury-over-child-poverty-modelling-error.html?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+23+ January+2018

[elZorro]

Bill English at Ratana on TV1 tonight, didn't look too impressive. More like a marionette.

The governing coalition members had a warm reception. I like the look of this new direction.

[iceman]

Bill English at Ratana on TV1 tonight, didn't look too impressive. More like a marionette.

The governing coalition members had a warm reception. I like the look of this new direction.

Were Winnie and David Parker there ? Or have they still not returned from signing the TPP they so strongly opposed before the election. Great for NZ that they´ve seen the light :-)

[fungus pudding]

Bill English at Ratana on TV1 tonight, didn't look too impressive. More like a marionette.

The governing coalition members had a warm reception. I like the look of this new direction.

How absolutely suprising that isn't.

[minimoke]

90 day trial provisions gone except for small employers. Good way of increasing unemployment as large employers move to more reliable automation.

[fungus pudding]

90 day trial provisions gone except for small employers. Good way of increasing unemployment as large employers move to more reliable automation.

No need. Plenty of opportunity to send production and processing work to Asia; e.g. IAG insurance. Saves capital outlay for automation. In fact, if they drive wages high enough through legislated rises, we could all be on holiday.

[minimoke]

In fact, if they drive wages high enough through legislated rises, we could all be on holiday.Not every one. Those in the public sector where you have compulsory customers will be safe. Nothing like an increase in minimum wage and talk of living wage to get those offshore brochures out around the board table,

[Zaphod]

Not every one. Those in the public sector where you have compulsory customers will be safe. Nothing like an increase in minimum wage and talk of living wage to get those offshore brochures out around the board table,

Or to further automate routine jobs. That'd also solve the productivity problem NZ ostensibly has.

[minimoke]

Or to further automate routine jobs. That'd also solve the productivity problem NZ ostensibly has.
Quite right. This is where Labour is running blind with 1970's ideology
.
While small business (under 20 employees) are likely to keep the trial provisions they don't necessarily have the capital to automate. Where as the big business will have better access to capital to invest in automation. So potentially we'll see big business hiring less semi-skilled staff and small business left with the dregs which they will churn through 90 day provisions.

What this inevitably means is that the "rich" bigger companies will get richer and the "poor" smaller companies will get poorer.

[elZorro]

Quite right. This is where Labour is running blind with 1970's ideology
.
While small business (under 20 employees) are likely to keep the trial provisions they don't necessarily have the capital to automate. Where as the big business will have better access to capital to invest in automation. So potentially we'll see big business hiring less semi-skilled staff and small business left with the dregs which they will churn through 90 day provisions.

What this inevitably means is that the "rich" bigger companies will get richer and the "poor" smaller companies will get poorer.

Not all of them. I agree with your comments. When big business gets a $5mill grant from Callaghan Innovation, they're likely to spend it on automation, to remove ongoing wages costs where they can. Give a small business just $100,000 and that could likely create two new jobs, and an opportunity for a new export product out of NZ. So I hope the Labour coalition will figure this out, and along with the R&D tax credits being reinstated (no mention yet) we'll be on a roll.

[777]

So these dimwits are underway with their agenda. No discussion, just change what they want. H1 program being continued by H2.

I am not at all religious but the prayer has been there since the beginning and if it is to be removed then there should be discussion and then a vote within Parliament.

Next week we will probably find we will be a republic.

[fungus pudding]

So these dimwits are underway with their agenda. No discussion, just change what they want. H1 program being continued by H2.

I am not at all religious but the prayer has been there since the beginning and if it is to be removed then there should be discussion and then a vote within Parliament.

Next week we will probably find we will be a republic.

I'm not religous either and very pleased to see references to Jesus Christ dropped. Sure, some still believe he had magical powers, but I think in a few years time we'll look back and laugh at such things as the resurrection and virgin births as strange ancient beliefs. Fair enough if an individual wants to believe in these miracles, but to promote them in parliament as though we all accept such things just isn't on. I don't see why parliament should vote on this. It just doesn't belong in parliament regardless of the fact some will want it to remain.

[minimoke]

This has no place in our parliament for this nonsense.

"Almighty God,
Humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace, and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Jesus Christ our Lord"

When I voted I voted for my MP to do the thinking, in my interests and in the interests of the Party - which ought to be in the interests of NZ. I want your MP to conduct themselves in a professional manner and not bring NZ's parliamentary name into disrepute. Religion and justice do not go hand in hand.

Nor ought there be any place for any Maori mumbo jumbo karakias in any government business. Wastes time. 99.9% of attendees dont understand And adds no measurable benefit to the delivery of the public service.

As for the nonsense on turning up to Ratana - how patronising is that!

Am I the only one who thinks it is offensive to impose some prayer on someone who doesn't believe?

[Baa_Baa]

Am I the only one who thinks it is offensive to impose some prayer on someone who doesn't believe?

I dunno, but you may be the only one eager to put their head on the block with forthright opinions, about the prayer, Jesus Christ, the Queen, and respect for the indigenous population.

Good luck with that.

[fungus pudding]

I dunno, but you may be the only one eager to put their head on the block with forthright opinions, about the prayer, Jesus Christ, the Queen, and respect for the indigenous population.

Good luck with that.

My head's on the block too. I'd rather politicians tackle their duties with life experience, facts and logic rather than blind faith and mythology.

[elZorro]

Must be a vicious rumour about Bill English stepping down in the near future. Although Tracy Watkins pointed out he won't be having much fun at the moment.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/100931971/can-bill-english-beat-jacinda-ardern

Is this the real start of National's long hard winter while they wait for a mood for change again? How many leaders will they churn through? If Labour's experience means anything, any new leader needs at least 2 years to make any headway in an election, and this nine-year term cycle seems to be fairly predictable.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11985080

At least National have figured out that Paula Bennett might not be leader material.

[fungus pudding]

Must be a vicious rumour about Bill English stepping down in the near future. Although Tracy Watkins pointed out he won't be having much fun at the moment.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/100931971/can-bill-english-beat-jacinda-ardern

Is this the real start of National's long hard winter while they wait for a mood for change again? How many leaders will they churn through? If Labour's experience means anything, any new leader needs at least 2 years to make any headway in an election, and this nine-year term cycle seems to be fairly predictable.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11985080

At least National have figured out that Paula Bennett might not be leader material.

Some of what you say is correct. However it's close to impossible to guess the future at this stage of the cycle given that Winston First will disappear at the next election; and Winston himself possibly before the next election.

[iceman]

Some of what you say is correct. However it's close to impossible to guess the future at this stage of the cycle given that Winston First will disappear at the next election; and Winston himself possibly before the next election.

Exactly right. This coalition in the current form is not a "9 years cycle" Government. But yes I think it is logical to expect English to step down and do some other more interesting stuff. I would not be surprised if National would soon end up with female Leader and Deputy, Amy Adams and Nikki Kaye

[Joshuatree]

Strong loyalty and respect for Bill ( Keep him i say, as many voters will never trust/believe him and joyce again, )
What went wrong being discussed
Nothing imminent, no signs of succession plan yet.
If Paula goes ,Bills place under question too.
A Degree of unhappiness about how negotiations went with Winston(they sure burnt their bridges there, another reason for paula to go?)
Caucus soul-searching, where are we going ,how are we going to deal with Jacinda?

Political reporter on national radio just now

[minimoke]

I

Good luck with that.
Howabout a bit of respect for all those other people who have cultures and different religious beliefs that have all contributed to making what NZ is today, rather than what it was in the 1600's

[minimoke]

A Degree of unhappiness about how negotiations went with Winston(they sure burnt their bridges there, another reason for paula to go?)

There should be no unhappiness at al on that front. It was quite apparent from Winstons announcement that he was never ever going to go with National.

[winner69]

There should be no unhappiness at al on that front. It was quite apparent from Winstons announcement that he was never ever going to go with National.

How’s Winnie’s court case coming along

He a good guy that Winnie - going to give the facing industry zillions in corporate welfare.

[Vagabond47]

Am I the only one who thinks it is offensive to impose some prayer on someone who doesn't believe?

No, the religious nonsense needs to be kicked out, including Ratana. I have no problem with them having a few formalities in Maori for the opening of Parliament or even each session, it is one of the official languages of NZ and part of what makes NZ and amongst all the other BS procedures having the kindergartners we keep electing having to stand in silence for few minutes doesn't hurt.

[westerly]

Exactly right. This coalition in the current form is not a "9 years cycle" Government. But yes I think it is logical to expect English to step down and do some other more interesting stuff. I would not be surprised if National would soon end up with female Leader and Deputy, Amy Adams and Nikki Kaye

Possible , men are definitely now outsiders when it comes to selections for all positions in public life.

westerly

[Joshuatree]

There should be no unhappiness at al on that front. It was quite apparent from Winstons announcement that he was never ever going to go with National.

Because national shafted him re his super, that is the tactic they stuffed up on.

[minimoke]

Because national shafted him re his super, that is the tactic they stuffed up on.
So was it pre- election strategy or post election negotiations that they were unhappy about. Seems a story shifting like the tide.

[Joshuatree]

Sounds like both from what ive heard.

[minimoke]

I have no problem with them having a few formalities in Maori for the opening of Parliament or even each session, it is one of the official languages of NZ and part of what makes NZ You'll get no argument fom me on that. And Signed Language as well. But a simple formality is all that is required - no beceaching some deity.

[minimoke]

Sounds like both from what ive heard.
Despite either they still got most votes and seats

[Joshuatree]

I thank heaven national stuffed up there, heads should roll but i hope they dont just yet, must be tough in opposition after 9 years .:)

[elZorro]

I thank heaven national stuffed up there, heads should roll but i hope they dont just yet, must be tough in opposition after 9 years .:)

Mike Williams was having a dig about Steven Joyce this morning on TV. After all, he was the Campaign Manager. It must be cruel for the Nats. Within a few months, Labour MPs will be able to get their own photos in the press from cutting the ribbons on new newly completed motorways. They can then proudly proclaim what the new govt is doing for NZ, just like National MPs did shamelessly for 9 years. Even though successive govts needed to be planning these motorways for decades.

This time around I expect some help to come for KiwiRail. For instance, Labour will likely reverse the Nats' decision to scrap the electric locos and hardware on the main trunk line. Meanwhile, the new Chinese diesel locos are starting to rust noticeably. Why? They are made of thinner steel than the ones they replaced. What will the lifetime of these cheaper locos be I wonder, and did the bean-counters factor that in?

A new Labour-friendly chair at Callaghan Innovation soon, Pete Hodgson.

https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/sue-suckling-replaced-pete-hodgson-callaghan-innovation-b-212099?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+1+ February+2018

[macduffy]

I thank heaven national stuffed up there, heads should roll but i hope they dont just yet, must be tough in opposition after 9 years .:)

Mustn't forget that National won the biggest share of the actual vote. I doubt whether there was ever any chance of NZ First choosing anyone but Labour/Greens, given the greater clout that they are able to exert there.

[iceman]

Mustn't forget that National won the biggest share of the actual vote. I doubt whether there was ever any chance of NZ First choosing anyone but Labour/Greens, given the greater clout that they are able to exert there.

Of course Winston had decided before the election he wasn´t going with National and held the country to ransom for weeks while extracting his baubles from Labour. It is funny isn´t to hear JT and EZ talking about heads needing to roll for a campaign that garnered the biggest number of votes after 9 years in Government. Further more, they continue at same or similar level in recent poll. Labour has alsom risen but only taken from Winston First, which will be wiped out at the next election when they´re conservative voters realise their mistake.

JT so you think National made a mistake re Winston´s super, even though there is no evidence forthcoming that they had anything to do with it. Isn´t the real issue that Winston happily excepted a large amount of money he wasn´t entitled to for years and with his knowledge of the super surely knew he was being overpaid. A bit like Turia riding on the gravy train eh !!

But I am sure there will be some rejuvenation in National and so it should be. But it will be in an orderly manner unlike Labour´s constant bloodletting over the last 9 years.

[Joshuatree]

MMP remember, inconvenient truth eh:). And lying to the country to get those votes; the three of them are goners but i hope not for a while :). After next election or just before it im thinking.

Nationals strategy of trying to eliminate and politically assassinate Winston was disastrous for them and its hilarious that sycophantic national (but typical national) thought they could grease up winston and negotiate , what a farce. Joyce's head is on the block for more reasons than one
Holding the country to ransom is fake news iceman , i thought you were better than that.

[minimoke]

Gotta say, dont know how many more times I can listen to "pud poverdy behind us"

[iceman]

MMP remember, inconvenient truth eh:). And lying to the country to get those votes; the three of them are goners but i hope not for a while :). After next election or just before it im thinking.

Nationals strategy of trying to eliminate and politically assassinate Winston was disastrous for them and its hilarious that sycophantic national (but typical national) thought they could grease up winston and negotiate , what a farce. Joyce's head is on the block for more reasons than one
Holding the country to ransom is fake news iceman , i thought you were better than that.

You mean like the disgraceful lies about Pike River entry within 100 days lead by Winnie the gravy train rider !!

[Joshuatree]

No 'holding the country to ransom"
I have seen the money allocated to pike and the process started to enter the mine. Im not optimistic though with OSH etc, they aren't calculated risk takers at all and stop many good missions dead.

[macduffy]

No 'holding the country to ransom"
I have seen the money allocated to pike and the process started to enter the mine. Im not optimistic though with OSH etc, they aren't calculated risk takers at all and stop many good missions dead.

You expect OSH to be "calculated risk takers"?

:p

[Joshuatree]

Hell no , killjoys, tying shoelaces next and then ties and then picking bellylint and then licking ice creams and then opening envelopes and then smiling and then......

[iceman]

So Winston has discontinued his legal fight with 2 journalists, saying it has been resolved amicably and he got what he wanted. Tim Murphy, one of the people involved says "Ha! Winston Peters abandons action against myself and @LloydBurr , claiming it has been 'amicably resolved' and information required was provided! He got nothing he asked for and walked away tail between legs.... "

I wonder who is lying, again !!

[elZorro]

So Winston has discontinued his legal fight with 2 journalists, saying it has been resolved amicably and he got what he wanted. Tim Murphy, one of the people involved says "Ha! Winston Peters abandons action against myself and @LloydBurr , claiming it has been 'amicably resolved' and information required was provided! He got nothing he asked for and walked away tail between legs.... "

I wonder who is lying, again !!

I'm sure there's more legs in this story yet.. Winston's still going after the MPs and former staffers.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11987115

[iceman]

And Tim Murphy predicts it will become "the case that never was".
I think poor old Winnie is going a bit senile. For his sake I hope he muddles through his final 2.5 years in Parliament.

[artemis]

And Tim Murphy predicts it will become "the case that never was".
I think poor old Winnie is going a bit senile. For his sake I hope he muddles through his final 2.5 years in Parliament.

Cameron Slater over at Whaleoil says Mr Peters' lawyers know exactly what they are doing. He says there is evidence.
www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/02/watch-tim-come-subpoenas/

[Joshuatree]

Must be a vicious rumour about Bill English stepping down in the near future. Although Tracy Watkins pointed out he won't be having much fun at the moment.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/100931971/can-bill-english-beat-jacinda-ardern

Is this the real start of National's long hard winter while they wait for a mood for change again? How many leaders will they churn through? If Labour's experience means anything, any new leader needs at least 2 years to make any headway in an election, and this nine-year term cycle seems to be fairly predictable.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11985080

At least National have figured out that Paula Bennett might not be leader material.

The next National leader likely to fall? Not English, but his deputy (https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/31-01-2018/the-next-national-leader-likely-to-fall-not-english-but-his-deputy/) with Bill being allowed to choose his exit point.

[iceman]

[QUOTE=artemis;701955]Cameron Slater over at Whaleoil says Mr Peters' lawyers know exactly what they are doing. He says there is evidence.
www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/02/watch-tim-come-subpoenas/[/QUOTE

I'd put my money on Tim Murphy being more accurate https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/02/02/80486/peters-throws-in-the-towel

[elZorro]

[QUOTE=artemis;701955]Cameron Slater over at Whaleoil says Mr Peters' lawyers know exactly what they are doing. He says there is evidence.
www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/02/watch-tim-come-subpoenas/ (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/02/watch-tim-come-subpoenas/)[/QUOTE

I'd put my money on Tim Murphy being more accurate https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/02/02/80486/peters-throws-in-the-towel

Apparently Paula Bennett and Tim Murphy had frequent contact when National were in power. Looking for that leak? Paula must be high up on the list.

The conversation is turning to a capital gains tax in a few places. I was bailed up by a previous Labour Party supporter who voted for Labour for many elections, but hasn't for the last two, and all over a possible capital gains tax. This semi-retired person hadn't an idea what the costs might be, what rate, when it might take effect from, etc. But their only external investment appeared to be a rental.

Which leads me to believe that this person was never really interested in a fairer society, because that's what such a tax would help with. But unlike Gareth Morgan, I don't think it could or should ever be applied to a family home.

https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/91913/andrew-courtney-says-renters-pay-their-accommodation-out-tax-paid-income-yet-owner?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+5+Fe bruary+2018

[minimoke]

[QUOTE=iceman;702018]


Which leads me to believe that this person was never really interested in a fairer society, because that's what such a tax would help with. But unlike Gareth Morgan, I don't think it could or should ever be applied to a family home.
That will suit the wealthy very well. They will have a vehicle to store capital that can survive downturns in the property market. (These downturns are likely to be less than the same cost associated with a tax). Then they are sitting pretty for whenth property market improves - which it always does after a downturn.

If you are going to have a CGT (and I'm not advocating one), then to be fair it has to apply to the family home.

[Zaphod]

If you are going to have a CGT (and I'm not advocating one), then to be fair it has to apply to the family home.

Definitely agree with you Minimoke. If such as tax was implemented, we'd certainly look at developing the "family home", adding value then flipping it tax free.

[iceman]

Interesting comparison between the difference in governance standards between business and Government https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/opinion-business-held-higher-standards-government-p-212183

[winner69]

Pity tomorrow is celebrated by just a minority — for the rest of us it’s just a day off

As long as Jacinda having a good time up North it’ll we OK

[minimoke]

Pity tomorrow is celebrated by just a minority — for the rest of us it’s just a day off

Is it "celebrated" or just "recognised"

[fungus pudding]

Pity tomorrow is celebrated by just a minority — for the rest of us it’s just a day off



Why is that a pity?

[elZorro]

Interesting comparison between the difference in governance standards between business and Government https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/opinion-business-held-higher-standards-government-p-212183

You have to pay for that link, Iceman. The gist of it was?

[elZorro]

Pity tomorrow is celebrated by just a minority — for the rest of us it’s just a day off

As long as Jacinda having a good time up North it’ll we OK

Looks like Labour had a good day again, best feeling there in 40 years. Maybe it was well planned in advance, they're not making the normal mistakes. A bit of humility.

[elZorro]

[QUOTE=elZorro;702068]
That will suit the wealthy very well. They will have a vehicle to store capital that can survive downturns in the property market. (These downturns are likely to be less than the same cost associated with a tax). Then they are sitting pretty for whenth property market improves - which it always does after a downturn.

If you are going to have a CGT (and I'm not advocating one), then to be fair it has to apply to the family home.

Easily sorted with a policy that looks at the capital value relative to other properties in the area. If it's exceeded by a big percentage and the costs to get there weren't large, then maybe there would be a cutoff on the family home. Maybe. But in most cases, the expenses to keep a family home tidy or to improve it, plus pay the interest, exceed or make up a large proportion the capital return. Why do rentiers buy basic low-maintenance homes or block flats? Low overheads, and then they claim back the interest costs. So it's not the same situation at all.

So to be fair, a CGT must exclude the family home in almost all cases.

[minimoke]

Looks like Labour had a good day again, best feeling there in 40 years. Maybe it was well planned in advance, they're not making the normal mistakes. A bit of humility.Whose going to abuse a pregnant woman?

[minimoke]

Easily sorted with a policy that looks at the capital value relative to other properties in the area. Well thats not going to work. Even Rating Valuations are a made up number

[elZorro]

Whose going to abuse a pregnant woman?

Exactly. Fortuitous timing.

[artemis]

Well thats not going to work. Even Rating Valuations are a made up number

True but they are broadly relative and there is an objection process. The family home has been excluded from the Tax Working Group, as we know, but what other assets will be excluded from the WG's recommendations.

The Labour Party fell foul of this at the 2011 and 2014 elections, as they scrambled to add exceptions in response to public feedback. Rules around how the family home was to be defined. The bach. The family business under some circumstances. Not sure we ever found out how assets in trusts were to be dealt with.

And many other assets that are usually the province of the well off were excluded - art, jewellery, boats, classic cars ....

Labour canned it as policy - an election loser. Good chance it will be back in in 2020. Learning from history?

[BlackPeter]

My head's on the block too. I'd rather politicians tackle their duties with life experience, facts and logic rather than blind faith and mythology.

Absolutely - you get my vote!

[artemis]

Looks like Labour had a good day again, best feeling there in 40 years. Maybe it was well planned in advance, they're not making the normal mistakes. A bit of humility.

Bypassing Te Tii marae more likely.

[fungus pudding]

[QUOTE=minimoke;702092]

Easily sorted with a policy that looks at the capital value relative to other properties in the area. If it's exceeded by a big percentage and the costs to get there weren't large, then maybe there would be a cutoff on the family home. Maybe. But in most cases, the expenses to keep a family home tidy or to improve it, plus pay the interest, exceed or make up a large proportion the capital return. Why do rentiers buy basic low-maintenance homes or block flats? Low overheads, and then they claim back the interest costs.

They do not 'claim anything back'. Who would they claim it from? The bank they paid it to would hardly be interested in refunding it.

[elZorro]

[QUOTE=elZorro;702198]

They do not 'claim anything back'. Who would they claim it from? The bank they paid it to would hardly be interested in refunding it.

You know perfectly well that rentiers and business owners claim back any interest expense on property as a business cost on their tax returns. So they claim a good proportion of it back from the taxman. If they obtain enough property and keep the interest cost high enough, it can greatly reduce their income tax. They can also choose to shuffle debt from their private side to their business side, enhancing the benefit. Someone who is renting gets no such benefit, and neither does the normal homeowner, who usually pays interest at about the same level as if they were renting. Both costs are dead money in exchange for having a place to live. But usually the homeowner has extra costs in keeping their own home in a good state, which a tenant doesn't have. This probably soaks up the rest of any capital gain that might be made, if we were all honest about it.

This draws a clear line for CGT between tenants and homeowners on one side, and rentiers on the other.

[fungus pudding]

[QUOTE=fungus pudding;702207]

You know perfectly well that rentiers and business owners claim back any interest expense on property as a business cost on their tax returns.

They do nothing of the sort. Where does 'interest paid' appear on a tax form? (Answer - it doesn't) The fact is they pay tax on the profit generated from their rental activity.
Interest paid is recorded as an expense in their books - which is not 'claiming it back'.
Just the same as a business pays tax on its profit - not on its turnover.

[777]

They do nothing of the sort. Where does 'interest paid' appear on a tax form? (Answer - it doesn't) The fact is they pay tax on the profit generated from their rental activity.
Interest paid is recorded as an expense in their books - which is not 'claiming it back'.
Just the same as a business pays tax on its profit - not on its turnover.

fp interest paid is deductible against rents received for tax purposes. It is an expense in achieving taxable income.

[fungus pudding]

fp interest paid is deductible against rents received for tax purposes. It is an expense in achieving taxable income.

Of course it is an expense and therefore does not form part of taxable income. But it is incorrect to say it is claimed back. It is paid to a lender and gone forever. Tax is never assessed on turnover; it's profit that is taxed. Terminology is important.

[elZorro]

Of course it is an expense and therefore does not form part of taxable income. But it is incorrect to say it is claimed back. It is paid to a lender and gone forever. Tax is never assessed on turnover; it's profit that is taxed. Terminology is important.

Just semantics, FP. The actual interest cash paid to a lender doesn't get repaid, but effectively the taxman refunds a portion of it in the business owner's tax return. While we're at it, there's another important difference between home and family bach owners, and rentiers. R&M is claimed in the year of the expense by the latter, and they can also claim some depreciation on furniture and fittings as an expense. Also any external costs in insuring and generally running the business operation, except their own time.

http://www.ird.govt.nz/property/property-rental/claim-expenses/claiming-expenses.html#01

The net result is a percentage reduction in tax on income received while they own the asset, a luxury not extended to tenants or homeowners.

Add to this the fact that most rental property is not fully up to current code, lags behind general housing stock and is a relatively unproductive part of the economy, and it's a terrible waste of capital effort by investors.

[fungus pudding]

Just semantics, FP. The actual interest cash paid to a lender doesn't get repaid, but effectively the taxman refunds a portion of it in the business owner's tax return. While we're at it, there's another important difference between home and family bach owners, and rentiers. R&M is claimed in the year of the expense by the latter, and they can also claim some depreciation on furniture and fittings as an expense. Also any external costs in insuring and generally running the business operation, except their own time.

The net result is a percentage reduction in tax on income received while they own the asset, a luxury not extended to tenants or homeowners.





What rubbish. Tax is never assessed on income: it is paid on profit. Providing rental accomodation is a money making venture, although not classed as a business, therefore outgoings do not form part of the profit. Occupying your own dwelling is a whole different ballgame.
To claim this is a 'luxury' not afforded to home owners is absurd.

If you are suggesting landlords should be taxed on total rent, then rents would necessarily skyrocket, as much from increased costs to landlords as well as suffering from a dried up market.
If on the other hand you are suggesting that home owners be permitted to deduct such costs from whatever income they have, then the price of houses would be astronomical.

[artemis]

Don't worry elZorro, the government is onto it and will be clamping down hard on landlords real soon.

(Wellington Trademe vacancy ads down 71% on same time last year. Landlords are watching. And acting.)

[minimoke]

Just semantics, FP.
Semantics are very important - especially when it comes to tax policy. After 9 years in opposition I would have thought Labour had loads of time to figure out the semantics. But no - they need a Working Group.

[elZorro]

What rubbish. Tax is never assessed on income: it is paid on profit. Providing rental accomodation is a money making venture, although not classed as a business, therefore outgoings do not form part of the profit. Occupying your own dwelling is a whole different ballgame.
To claim this is a 'luxury' not afforded to home owners is absurd.

If you are suggesting landlords should be taxed on total rent, then rents would necessarily skyrocket, as much from increased costs to landlords as well as suffering from a dried up market.
If on the other hand you are suggesting that home owners be permitted to deduct such costs from whatever income they have, then the price of houses would be astronomical.

Neither. The status quo on business expenses is fine. Landlords run a business, just not a particularly productive one. But when a CGT is applied to landlords and all business owners at some minimal rate, from a start date in the future, there should be no squealing of unfairness from those who have already been working the tax system. I would guess it will only apply on the sale of the asset, so very little paperwork will be required, except at the start of such a scheme.

[fungus pudding]

Neither. The status quo on business expenses is fine. Landlords run a business, just not a particularly productive one. But when a CGT is applied to landlords and all business owners at some minimal rate, from a start date in the future, there should be no squealing of unfairness from those who have already been working the tax system. I would guess it will only apply on the sale of the asset, so very little paperwork will be required, except at the start of such a scheme.

Nothing wrong with CGT if designed properly, allows for rehabilitation and covers pvt. dwellings.

[elZorro]

Nothing wrong with CGT if designed properly, allows for rehabilitation and covers pvt. dwellings.

If it covered private dwellings it would have to be at a greatly reduced rate, otherwise it would certainly be unfair.

[westerly]

What rubbish. Tax is never assessed on income: .

It is if you are a worker. Terminology is important

CGT should not be applied to the family home, if you sell for whatever reason you would in most cases have to buy a replacement. Any capital gain would probably be needed to fund the replacement.

westerly

[Joshuatree]

Maybe the tax discussion should have its own thread?

Meanwhile i have heard the rumour that Judith Collins was indirectly involved in the NZR pipeline break looking for kauri to export to china but i have no idea if there is substance to this..

An accurate article here about the national party from here

English will make way, but not now (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/101115825/bennett-nats-set-for-a-little-surgery)

[elZorro]

Don't worry elZorro, the government is onto it and will be clamping down hard on landlords real soon.

(Wellington Trademe vacancy ads down 71% on same time last year. Landlords are watching. And acting.)

Presumably more properties are coming on the market for first-home buyers. It's not all bad.

[elZorro]

Maybe the tax discussion should have its own thread?

Meanwhile i have heard the rumour that Judith Collins was indirectly involved in the NZR pipeline break looking for kauri to export to china but i have no idea if there is substance to this..

An accurate article here about the national party from here

English will make way, but not now (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/101115825/bennett-nats-set-for-a-little-surgery)

Interesting, some good points in Jane Bowron's article. Although I think Jacinda counts herself lucky to be pregnant, and it's great the new job hasn't damaged her chances of having a family. So a bit of a nasty take from Jane there.

The CGT discussion is a big one, but not the only area of possible Labour policy that we'll be seeing more of. I'd prefer the thread to stay intact, the points of view of both sides are out now, and they won't change. The disingenuous efforts of FP and Gareth Morgan to apply CGT to homeowners, won't be politically acceptable. There has to be a better way to handle the situation.

[peat]

Meanwhile i have heard the rumour that Judith Collins was indirectly involved in the NZR pipeline break looking for kauri to export to china but i have no idea if there is substance to this..

Yeh I heard rumours of this slightly after the incident. Note that

The husband of Judith Collins, David Wong-Tung, is a director of the Oravida Group which exports New Zealand meat, wines, seafood, fruit, dairy products and swamp kauri to China.

Swamp kauri mining threat to rare orchid

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503402&objectid=11322601 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503402&objectid=11322601)

[elZorro]

Yeh I heard rumours of this slightly after the incident. Note that

The husband of Judith Collins, David Wong-Tung, is a director of the Oravida Group which exports New Zealand meat, wines, seafood, fruit, dairy products and swamp kauri to China.

Swamp kauri mining threat to rare orchid

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503402&objectid=11322601 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503402&objectid=11322601)



Some big numbers in the article, could be up to $400mill of swamp kauri held by Oravida at one stage. That certainly would make them a big player in the extraction. This goes back at least as far as 2012.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11052197

[minimoke]

Maybe the tax discussion should have its own thread?

Meanwhile i have heard the rumour that Judith Collins was indirectly involved in the NZR pipeline break looking for kauri to export to china but i have no idea if there is substance to this..

Bwahahaha.

Really scraping the bottom of the pipeline there. I think you need new sources.

For a start NZ refinery can find no culprit. At best they spoke to 2 digger drivers who aren't implicated. Leaving one unknown digger driver. And this unknown person is somehow linked to Arvida who is linked to David Wong-Tung who is linked to Judith Collins.

Dont get me wrong, I have no times for Collins. But thats like say she is indirectly involved in the crash of the Dow because her husband is a director of a listed company and listed companies are over priced

[Joshuatree]

Sounds like amateur, token, sleuthing here, put in the too hard /awkward basket, someone could get a private investigator to trace to the source and verify if Oravida was the culprit.

[fungus pudding]

Sounds like amateur, token, sleuthing here, put in the too hard /awkward basket, someone could get a private investigator to trace to the source and verify if Oravida was the culprit.

If that's what you think, and it concerns you, then be that someone and do it. Let us know the outcome.

[jonu]

Sounds like amateur, token, sleuthing here, put in the too hard /awkward basket, someone could get a private investigator to trace to the source and verify if Oravida was the culprit.

I'm sure NZR have the motivation to find the culprit and it's not political but financial. I'm no fan of Judith Collins but this is pretty low JT

[Joshuatree]

Sure not nominating fp lol, semantics in a pile of "rubbish".

[Joshuatree]

wow up to $400 million of swamp kauri thats big and greedy and motivational!

[fungus pudding]

It is if you are a worker. Terminology is important

CGT should not be applied to the family home, if you sell for whatever reason you would in most cases have to buy a replacement. Any capital gain would probably be needed to fund the replacement.

westerly

The same applies to commercial and industrial properties. That is precisely why a repatriation clause should be part of a CGT, and applied to pvt. dwellings as well as C and I. Those two inclusions would form the basis of a fair, sensible and workable tax.

[elZorro]

The same applies to commercial and industrial properties. That is precisely why a repatriation clause should be part of a CGT, and applied to pvt. dwellings as well as C and I. Those two inclusions would form the basis of a fair, sensible and workable tax.

You are both wrong. It's fundamentally because with private dwellings, the owner cannot offset property costs and interest against income while they own the asset, whereas the rentier can. Both have the same problem of possibly needing most of the capital to put into another asset, but equally they could bank the money. Rentiers will generally still get all of their original capital back on an asset sale, plus the large majority of their capital gain. Private dwelling owners deserve all of the capital gain in the eye of the taxman, because they've been at a tremendous disadvantage compared to rentiers.

There is no good reason for the taxman to wait a lifetime for CGT payments under a repatriation system. It will do the country no good to have inefficient property money being recycled, simply to save a comparatively small amount of tax. Maybe if property capital was moved into a business operation that employed people, then it could be worthwhile to offer a tax rebate of some kind. How would you like that, FP?

[winner69]

At least we can have confidence in our Min of Finance ... he seems to be up with the play

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101238392/grant-robertsons-uturn-on-public-debt-hints-at-deeper-concerns-about-debt

[minimoke]

You are both wrong. It's fundamentally because with private dwellings, the owner cannot offset property costs and interest against income while they own the asset, whereas the rentier can. Both have the same problem of possibly needing most of the capital to put into another asset, but equally they could bank the money. Rentiers will generally still get all of their original capital back on an asset sale, plus the large majority of their capital gain. Private dwelling owners deserve all of the capital gain in the eye of the taxman, because they've been at a tremendous disadvantage compared to rentiers.
You are missing one of the fundamentals of being a land lord. What you should be aiming for is a rent that exceeds expenses (interest costs, maintenance depreciation etc) with a view to making a profit on with the tax man will grab a portion. So lets just say, for simplicity, that a landlord breaks even. He is still up for "capital gains" particularly if he falls under the bright line test. Thus he is at a disadvantage compared to the private home owner.

Incidentally I see both the land lord and home owner as productive users of capital in that they are both putting a roof over someones head.

[fungus pudding]

You are missing one of the fundamentals of being a land lord. What you should be aiming for is a rent that exceeds expenses (interest costs, maintenance depreciation etc) with a view to making a profit on with the tax man will grab a portion. So lets just say, for simplicity, that a landlord breaks even. He is still up for "capital gains" particularly if he falls under the bright line test. Thus he is at a disadvantage compared to the private home owner.

Incidentally I see both the land lord and home owner as productive users of capital in that they are both putting a roof over someones head.

I think out system of applying income tax based on intent is quite suffficient without having separate systems and tax rates.
If there is a fault, it is simply that IRD do not seem to enforce their own rules very often.
CGT can be a monster. Careful design is essential.

[artemis]

..... with private dwellings, the owner cannot offset property costs and interest against income while they own the asset, whereas the rentier can.....

Not so. If owners is receiving income from their owner occupied property they can offset related costs aginst that and other income (depending on the tax structure). Consider those who work from home and have a home office, for example.

Same as landlords, just the proportion that may differ.

[artemis]

I think out system of applying income tax based on intent is quite suffficient without having separate systems and tax rates.
If there is a fault, it is simply that IRD do not seem to enforce their own rules very often.
CGT can be a monster. Careful design is essential.

IRD have a large and increasing compliance team and budget, and take in a lot more tax than the programme costs. Last I saw about $8 for every $1 spent.

[fungus pudding]

IRD have a large and increasing compliance team and budget, and take in a lot more tax than the programme costs. Last I saw about $8 for every $1 spent.

True. They are giving property transactions much more attention than they used to.

[elZorro]

You are missing one of the fundamentals of being a land lord. What you should be aiming for is a rent that exceeds expenses (interest costs, maintenance depreciation etc) with a view to making a profit on with the tax man will grab a portion. So lets just say, for simplicity, that a landlord breaks even. He is still up for "capital gains" particularly if he falls under the bright line test. Thus he is at a disadvantage compared to the private home owner.

Incidentally I see both the land lord and home owner as productive users of capital in that they are both putting a roof over someones head.

The poor rentier breaks even and then can't understand why the taxman should have a portion of their profit on the sale of the asset? They only broke even because interest clobbered most of the income in that situation, but think about the homeowner who swapped rental costs for interest, but are paying all costs out of their normal tax-paid income. Their situation isn't that much different from renting, much riskier, except maybe they'll get a capital gain so it's not as painful in the end. But the rentier goes into the situation looking at the capital gain without risking too much, and certainly not having to pay for it. The tenant pays the interest and all costs generally.

While being a rentier could be viewed as a productive user of capital, it has to be at the low end of the scale. How many businesses that employ people could you buy with about $1mill of capital? One person could buy quite a few. The bank wouldn't lend on them at 4% though.

[elZorro]

Not so. If owners is receiving income from their owner occupied property they can offset related costs aginst that and other income (depending on the tax structure). Consider those who work from home and have a home office, for example.

Same as landlords, just the proportion that may differ.

Yes, probably not well known, but a good way to run a small business, or a tidy business, with low overheads. But I was talking about normal homeowners who don't think about what else they could be doing in their spare time, or are involved in a business operation.

[fungus pudding]

Yes, probably not well known, but a good way to run a small business, or a tidy business, with low overheads. But I was talking about normal homeowners who don't think about what else they could be doing in their spare time, or are involved in a business operation.

Landlords are quite normal homeowners. They pay the outgoings on their own dwelling out of taxable income.

[iceman]

Reading various articles on the big change coming to education policies, I am concerned. We are now going to move away from main focus on numeracy and literacy to whatever the Unions tell Hipkins to do. It is clear that the Unions are getting their dicvdend from supporting Labour with this backwards step to the 70s.
The Government has also announced terminating ALL Charter schools, contrarcy to assurances given by Arderm Hipkins and Davis before and after the election. I suspect there will be many people very upset about this and they may well fight back. One of the Ministers in the Government has been a firm supporter of Charter schools. It will be interesting if Willie Jackson, Kelvin Davis and NZ First support this mad legislation.

I suggest this will be a bigger fight than the Government expects !

[fungus pudding]

Reading various articles on the big change coming to education policies, I am concerned. We are now going to move away from main focus on numeracy and literacy to whatever the Unions tell Hipkins to do. It is clear that the Unions are getting their dicvdend from supporting Labour with this backwards step to the 70s.
The Government has also announced terminating ALL Charter schools, contrarcy to assurances given by Arderm Hipkins and Davis before and after the election. I suspect there will be many people very upset about this and they may well fight back. One of the Ministers in the Government has been a firm supporter of Charter schools. It will be interesting if Willie Jackson, Kelvin Davis and NZ First support this mad legislation.

I suggest this will be a bigger fight than the Government expects !

I certainly hope it is. Abandoning charter schools and dropping the 90 day work trial period show the silly side of socialism.

[minimoke]

I certainly hope it is. Abandoning charter schools and dropping the 90 day work trial period show the silly side of socialism.add to that the Triangular Employment Relationship bill which make employers responsible for contractor workers.

Certainly doing all they can to use union definitions of worker protections, but every day giving employers new reasons not to employ. Better to out source off shore or buy equipment.

I suspect Willie Jackson is a tiger who cant change his stripes and hes a vile socialist from way back. That he is the best labour have for Employment Minster is a worry - even putting aside his guaranteed spot on the list to get him to shake off the dust of obsolescence that had settled on him over the past decade.

[artemis]

Reading various articles on the big change coming to education policies, I am concerned. We are now going to move away from main focus on numeracy and literacy to whatever the Unions tell Hipkins to do. It is clear that the Unions are getting their dicvdend from supporting Labour with this backwards step to the 70s.
The Government has also announced terminating ALL Charter schools, contrarcy to assurances given by Arderm Hipkins and Davis before and after the election. I suspect there will be many people very upset about this and they may well fight back. One of the Ministers in the Government has been a firm supporter of Charter schools. It will be interesting if Willie Jackson, Kelvin Davis and NZ First support this mad legislation.

I suggest this will be a bigger fight than the Government expects !

Every charter school interview I've heard in the past couple of weeks includes the term 'ideological' repeatedly. As if that's a bad thing, except for the ideology the government and unions agree with of course.

I also think this will be a bigger fight than the government expects but meantime Mr Hipkins is determined, and the wiggle room is decreasing. Though not gone quite yet.

The fight, I think, will not be pitchforks in the street but a quiet anger rising in those impacted. And their friends and relations. And given the demographic of charter schools it is probable that many of those families will be among the 'missing million' but will be turning out to vote next time. Potentially a lot of voters.

If the schools are permitted to become 'special character' then the transition back to the current model may not be too difficult under a different government. Of course by then the passionate folk who set them up in the first place will be long gone.

[elZorro]

Every charter school interview I've heard in the past couple of weeks includes the term 'ideological' repeatedly. As if that's a bad thing, except for the ideology the government and unions agree with of course.

I also think this will be a bigger fight than the government expects but meantime Mr Hipkins is determined, and the wiggle room is decreasing. Though not gone quite yet.

The fight, I think, will not be pitchforks in the street but a quiet anger rising in those impacted. And their friends and relations. And given the demographic of charter schools it is probable that many of those families will be among the 'missing million' but will be turning out to vote next time. Potentially a lot of voters.

If the schools are permitted to become 'special character' then the transition back to the current model may not be too difficult under a different government. Of course by then the passionate folk who set them up in the first place will be long gone.

But not all partnership or charter schools have done well, and at this stage they are a definite minority in number. In about 2014, there were only 357 students enrolled in all five charter schools. Now there are about 10-11 charter schools, and I think enrollments are still below 2000 students.

https://education.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Ministry/Initiatives/Partnership-schools/StatePartnershipSchoolsFunding.pdf

If National spin is to be believed, the cost per student isn't higher for charter schools, but it's up there. There have also been some horror stories, have a look at the wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_schools_in_New_Zealand

[winner69]

I gather Jacinda doesn't think her Minister of Health's profile picture on twitter is a good look ...esp when raving on how he is going to fix obesity ....like no more KFC

What a twit

[fungus pudding]

But not all partnership or charter schools have done well, and at this stage they are a definite minority in number. In about 2014, there were only 357 students enrolled in all five charter schools. Now there are about 10-11 charter schools, and I think enrollments are still below 2000 students.

https://education.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Ministry/Initiatives/Partnership-schools/StatePartnershipSchoolsFunding.pdf

If National spin is to be believed, the cost per student isn't higher for charter schools, but it's up there. There have also been some horror stories, have a look at the wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_schools_in_New_Zealand

The fact is charter schools have been brilliantly successful for many students even though the schools are still in their infancy. It's only Labour's gutlessness that stops them acknowledging the benefits. They should tell the unions to get stuffed and do what's best for students.
The NZ education system is a long way short of what it should be, and it should be open to alternatives. But of course it's not about the customers, aka students; it's about the precious teachers. Pathetic on the part of Labour, and in particular the deadbeat, out of his depth, temporary education minister, Chris Hipkins.
With any sort of luck they'll get pressured by their own party members (they can't all be stupid) to continue with the program. If so they'll rename the scheme, claim they have fixed it and then carry on. Just as they did with TPP.

[iceman]

Well put FP. That´s exactly how it is. EZ of course not all of the charter schools have done well in the first couple of years and some have failed. The same applies to state schools. Some of them do a terrible job, but that doesn´t mean all state schools should be closed. Labour is doing this purely as an ideological opposition by the Unions as they fear losing control of the system. Shame on the likes of Willie Jackson who claims to be fighting for the underdog and those that have for one reason or another failed in the state system but flourished in charter schools. He´s got no principles and is full of hot air. Disgraceful.

Artemis I think you may be right. This may make some of the "missing million" come out and vote next time and they won´t be voting for Labour.

[Vaygor1]

I gather Jacinda doesn't think her Minister of Health's profile picture on twitter is a good look ...esp when raving on how he is going to fix obesity ....like no more KFC

What a twit

Haha.. yeah definitely (and ironically) a potential rebrand for KFC there.

Interesting recent article in The Listener on the subject:
http://www.noted.co.nz/currently/social-issues/our-cycling-and-sugar-tax-activists-need-to-brush-up-on-nudge-theory/

".... an economic study’s finding that sugar taxes – one of the most commonly advanced policy fixes for obesity – don’t achieve their purpose illustrates why we need smarter and less-doctrinaire approaches to our shoulds and shouldn’ts."

[elZorro]

Well put FP. That´s exactly how it is. EZ of course not all of the charter schools have done well in the first couple of years and some have failed. The same applies to state schools. Some of them do a terrible job, but that doesn´t mean all state schools should be closed. Labour is doing this purely as an ideological opposition by the Unions as they fear losing control of the system. Shame on the likes of Willie Jackson who claims to be fighting for the underdog and those that have for one reason or another failed in the state system but flourished in charter schools. He´s got no principles and is full of hot air. Disgraceful.

Artemis I think you may be right. This may make some of the "missing million" come out and vote next time and they won´t be voting for Labour.

It might be the missing 4,000 votes that come out then, the parents of current charter students, if they are in fact doing well. I wonder what the respective average attendance rates are between state and charter schools. That would tell a story.

I know a local headmaster of a small troubled state school who liked the look of the charter way, being an existing school the idea was to use the premises of a closed down school out in the country for an outdoor/trade experience etc. The idea was tried, appeared to be working, but was shut down by the education dept a couple of years ago.

Now we're short of tradespeople, the likes of hotel owners wanting to bring in 194 Chinese workers to get their building completed on time. This starts at the secondary level, where students decide where they might go for tertiary training.

Successive National Govts have had their part to play, with the unending call for market forces to decide. And where did that lead? Rod Oram in 2011, remembers the Bolger years.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/5480093/Training-give-and-take


Ideologically, a National-led government could easily shift more training costs to businesses, arguing they benefit from upskilling their staff so they should pay for it.

But this was exactly the deeply damaging mistake the Bolger Government made with the Industry Training Act of 1992. It radically reformed skills training, leaving only skeletal government support. Quickly, many companies developed a new training culture. Rather than take responsibility themselves, they poached skilled staff from competitors that kept training. As a result, the number of people in formal workplace training plunged and skills shortages became chronic.

Reviving industry training was one of the key planks of Helen Clark's 1999 election campaign. The Modern Apprenticeship Act of 2002 was one of her government's first major pieces of legislation. It created Industry Training Organisations, each tasked with developing government-funded programmes for its specific sector.

Between 1999 and 2009, the employees receiving industry training more than doubled, from 49,580 in 1999 to almost 126,000 in 2009. Government funding for it almost trebled in the last 10 years, from $62m in 2000/01 to $180m in 2010/11.


So National policy had a bad effect on the trades in the Bolger years, they tried it again in their latest 9 year term, and now we're paying for that with high house prices and rental costs.

More recent National spin, before they were turfed out.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/apprenticeship-numbers-continue-grow

[winner69]

Phil’s got his Housing Report and jeez things are a disaster eh after 9 years of National denial and lack of action

Can Phil fix it?

Probably not in his term of Minister anyway. I’ve noticed over the years when a government (in many parts of the world including NZ) intervenes in the housing market to make houses more affordable, the intervention makes them less affordable, and ensures that the first-time buyer is more indebted. The whole point of the intervention is to make accommodation cheaper, yet this never seems to work.

So is Phil going to build his 100,000 homes or whatever the number is and rent them out at affordable rents (state as a landlord) or is going to build them and sell them to first home buyers who then become indebted (to somebody) with ‘cheaper’ accomodation still a dream

Good on Phil having a go anyway

[minimoke]

Phil’s got his Housing Report and jeez things are a disaster eh after 9 years of National denial and lack of action


I need to read the report in full. But headline says we have 1.9m private dwellings. At 2.6 people per dwelling thats enough for 4.9m people. Current NZ population = approx 4.7m

[winner69]

I need to read the report in full. But headline says we have 1.9m private dwellings. At 2.6 people per dwelling thats enough for 4.9m people. Current NZ population = approx 4.7m

It doesn’t make much sense does it

Probably isn’t a housing crisis anyway

Most people who really want to own a home manage to do so come what may.

The ‘accomadation’ Problem seems to be the fault of these horrible landlords who want to make a buck or two out of property.

[minimoke]

The ‘accomadation’ Problem seems to be the fault of these horrible landlords who want to make a buck or two out of property.
Fuelled by the accommodation supplement.

Anecdotally (and subject to more rigorous analysis) I've been talking to a few students this year who are reporting an increase in rents. The $50 student allowance increase must be purely co-incidental.

[BlackPeter]

Phil’s got his Housing Report and jeez things are a disaster eh after 9 years of National denial and lack of action

Can Phil fix it?

Probably not in his term of Minister anyway. I’ve noticed over the years when a government (in many parts of the world including NZ) intervenes in the housing market to make houses more affordable, the intervention makes them less affordable, and ensures that the first-time buyer is more indebted. The whole point of the intervention is to make accommodation cheaper, yet this never seems to work.

So is Phil going to build his 100,000 homes or whatever the number is and rent them out at affordable rents (state as a landlord) or is going to build them and sell them to first home buyers who then become indebted (to somebody) with ‘cheaper’ accomodation still a dream

Good on Phil having a go anyway

Here is an idea .. given that we now have a socialist government which knows how to run things. Just listen to EZ, westerly and JT, and if you don't believe them, just check history. All socialists believe their governments are good in running business :p.

So - here is the proposal - why don't they just buy FBU, MPG and STU (all quite cheap these days) and show us how to run them with profit and build lots of cheap houses as well.

They say governments are a Paragon in running businesses ... into the dirt.

Discl: Looking forward to buy back FBU in 3 years for 50 cents ...

[fungus pudding]

Here is an idea .. given that we now have a socialist government which knows how to run things. Just listen to EZ, westerly and JT, and if you don't believe them, just check history. All socialists believe their governments are good in running business :p.

So - here is the proposal - why don't they just buy FBU, MPG and STU (all quite cheap these days) and show us how to run them with profit and build lots of cheap houses as well.



Don't even joke about it. They might pounce on the idea. Allah forbid.

[winner69]

One of odd quirks of nature that those who want to be first homes wish for a property collapse but the moment they own a house all they want is prices to go up.

[Joshuatree]

FBU own Trade Link in aus , another dog that previous management bought. In the same space is REH a premium investment company imo , I hold.

[Vaygor1]

I need to read [Phil's Housing Report] in full. But headline says we have 1.9m private dwellings. At 2.6 people per dwelling thats enough for 4.9m people. Current NZ population = approx 4.7m



It doesn’t make much sense does it

Probably isn’t a housing crisis anyway

Most people who really want to own a home manage to do so come what may.

The ‘accomadation’ Problem seems to be the fault of these horrible landlords who want to make a buck or two out of property.

Having a tenant will blemish a Landlord's asset by a greater degree than not having a tenant.

When the rules set by the government (taxation, compliance, tenants 'rights', tenant indemnity) become too onerous, landlords increasingly opt in favour of leaving their asset(s) unblemished.

In other words it becomes more beneficial to leave the property empty than the hassle and cost of not.

According to Phil's Housing Report, there seems to be spare housing for 200,000 people. At 2.6 people per dwelling means a spare 77,000 apartments/houses/dwellings out there. Assuming ALL these dwellings are in an optimal geographical location to 'fix' the problem, the current and proposed rules by the government will ensure at least that many are left empty.

[fungus pudding]

Having a tenant will blemish a Landlord's asset by a greater degree than not having a tenant.

When the rules set by the government (taxation, compliance, tenants 'rights', tenant indemnity) become too onerous, landlords increasingly opt in favour of leaving their asset(s) unblemished.

In other words it becomes more beneficial to leave the property empty than the hassle and cost of not.

According to Phil's Housing Report, there seems to be spare housing for 200,000 people. At 2.6 people per dwelling means a spare 77,000 apartments/houses/dwellings out there. Assuming ALL these dwellings are in an optimal geographical location to 'fix' the problem, the current and proposed rules by the government will ensure at least that many are left empty.

I think Twyford is in serious competition with Hipkins for the title of party clown.

[winner69]

I think Twyford is in serious competition with Hipkins for the title of party clown.

Phil seems to be in awe of this Eaqub guy

Loved Phil’s comment at the release of this report along the lines of for once I’m not the most gung-ho in the room

Pity he was laughing at the time ...both clowns

Just get on with it Phil .....build tens of thousands of rental homes and charge affordable rents .....don’t encourage them to buy as that just burdens them with debt, won’t be any unintended consequenses will there.

[winner69]

I think Twyford is in serious competition with Hipkins for the title of party clown.

Is Twyford still in Opposition ....talks and acts like he is

[minimoke]

Having a tenant will blemish a Landlord's asset by a greater degree than not having a tenant.

When the rules set by the government (taxation, compliance, tenants 'rights', tenant indemnity) become too onerous, landlords increasingly opt in favour of leaving their asset(s) unblemished.

In other words it becomes more beneficial to leave the property empty than the hassle and cost of not.
.
I think, rather than "blemish" the word you are looking for is "affordable".

The landlord has one focus and that is to get tenants in that provide a reasonable return on investment. When rules set by government (compliance, tenants "rights", indemnity - not tax because that is good) raise costs to a point that there is no economic return then the landlord is quite entitled to lessen his exposure to these costs. The aim after all is to by snared by "taxation" which kicks in when making a profit.

Got a letter from the lawyers the other day. Health and SAfety Act says a landlord cant do any work on his property if there is (or potential of) asbestos. So if you want to get a plumber in to change a washer you have to have an Asbestos management Plan. If you dont you could be up for a $50,000 fine. So how much do you think that will add to the cost of owning the property - which of course has to be passed on to the tenant,

[winner69]

Bill English resigns and to leave Parliament

Did great and honorable service over many years. Pity he got a few hospital passes along the way but that’s politics.

Hope future is good to you.

[minimoke]

Bill English resigns and to leave Parliament

Did great and honorable service over many years. Pity he got a few hospital passes along the way but that’s politics.

Hope future is good to you.
He can leave with his head held high. Did a great job to secure as many votes as National did. You cant put Winstons warped thinking on his shoulders. Only hope now is Gerry Brownlee does the same. (and that Judith Collins gets no where near the top job)

[Joshuatree]

The next National leader likely to fall? Not English, but his deputy (https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/31-01-2018/the-next-national-leader-likely-to-fall-not-english-but-his-deputy/) with Bill being allowed to choose his exit point.

He has chosen his exit.Done the best thing for his party to renew. Used the "family" card as one main reason, yeah right. Going in good humour i admire that. Legacy, none.

[fungus pudding]

He can leave with his head held high. Did a great job to secure as many votes as National did. You cant put Winstons warped thinking on his shoulders. Only hope now is Gerry Brownlee does the same. (and that Judith Collins gets no where near the top job)

Ditto re Collins.

[artemis]

I keep hearing it said that Ms Collins is polarising. A few comments above that appear to agree with that. But why? She is popular in her electorate. The Oravida issue must surely be fading into the mists of time. She has forceful opinions on some subjects, but politicians should.

Why do some hate her so much. Genuine question.

[elZorro]

Will Paula "Hyperbowl" Bennett stay as deputy leader of the opposition? Please leave her there..

Simon Bridges could be the main contender for leader, he seems to have good connections for funding. And they all know the rule that funding equates to votes in an election.

[Joshuatree]

Yes keep her there lol.I was also hoping Bill would limp on a while but he's seen the juicy jobs JK has got. I think Bridges too, although he may be thinking ahead, maybe a caretaker PM and Bridges play for leadership after they lose the next election. But no he is a driven man, to be the top of their heap.

[Joshuatree]

Johnny English :) English will be in demand (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101413326/directorships-beckon-for-english-with-rumour-of-a-seat-on-an-aussie-bank)

[elZorro]

Yes keep her there lol.I was also hoping Bill would limp on a while but he's seen the juicy jobs JK has got. I think Bridges too, although he may be thinking ahead, maybe a caretaker PM and Bridges play for leadership after they lose the next election. But no he is a driven man, to be the top of their heap.

Let's face it, Bridges doesn't have too much competition. In the cold light of day it's hard to get excited about Collins, Brownlee, Bennett, Nick Smith, Coleman, and Joyce.

[iceman]

Let's face it, Bridges doesn't have too much competition. In the cold light of day it's hard to get excited about Collins, Brownlee, Bennett, Nick Smith, Coleman, and Joyce.

Not sure what point you´re making there EZ. None of the people you name, except maybe Collins, will be standing. I think we may see Mark Mitchell stand with Amy Adams or Nikki Kaye as a Deputy

[iceman]

Yes keep her there lol.I was also hoping Bill would limp on a while but he's seen the juicy jobs JK has got. I think Bridges too, although he may be thinking ahead, maybe a caretaker PM and Bridges play for leadership after they lose the next election. But no he is a driven man, to be the top of their heap.

Funny that Sir John did indeed get lots of juicy jobs, but not the ones lefties on this forum were predicting last term, with constant suggestions he was setting himself up as an Ambassador or High Commissioner.. How wrong was that, but lefties can´t think of anything other than ex politicians staying on the Government´s or Governmental organisation´s payroll. Michael Cullen, Helen Clarke, now Peter Hodgson etc etc etc. The list is endless.
They struggle to find jobs in the private sector

[Joshuatree]

Key was only going where the money was, self, self selfiekey.

[peat]

Johnny English :) English will be in demand (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101413326/directorships-beckon-for-english-with-rumour-of-a-seat-on-an-aussie-bank)

"If Labour has the same sense of irony, perhaps it could offer English a seat on the board of the NZ Super Fund."

The last few paragraphs of that article are quite amusing.

[winner69]

Things sure have looked up and got better since Jacinda and Grant been in charge of the purse strings. As grant increases borrowing to unprecedented levels Jacinda gots heaps more to spend -

The Crown's financial position continues to track better than forecast. In the six months to December they recorded a +$1.1 bln OBEGAL surplus, compared to the expected +$300 mln. (That is up from the +$125 mln in the five months to November.) The full operating balance surplus is +$3.5 bln in six months. On an annual basis that is an OBEGAL surplus of $5.2 bln and the highest since just before the GFC in the year to July 2008.

[minimoke]

Things sure have looked up and got better since Jacinda and Grant been in charge of the purse strings. As grant increases borrowing to unprecedented levels Jacinda gots heaps more to spend -

The Crown's financial position continues to track better than forecast. In the six months to December they recorded a +$1.1 bln OBEGAL surplus, compared to the expected +$300 mln. (That is up from the +$125 mln in the five months to November.) The full operating balance surplus is +$3.5 bln in six months. On an annual basis that is an OBEGAL surplus of $5.2 bln and the highest since just before the GFC in the year to July 2008.
That's quite the financial legacy National left them.

[elZorro]

Things sure have looked up and got better since Jacinda and Grant been in charge of the purse strings. As grant increases borrowing to unprecedented levels Jacinda gots heaps more to spend -

The Crown's financial position continues to track better than forecast. In the six months to December they recorded a +$1.1 bln OBEGAL surplus, compared to the expected +$300 mln. (That is up from the +$125 mln in the five months to November.) The full operating balance surplus is +$3.5 bln in six months. On an annual basis that is an OBEGAL surplus of $5.2 bln and the highest since just before the GFC in the year to July 2008.

W69, it has taken National nine years to just get close to the operating position that Labour held through their last term of office. And Labour grew the economy and labour force as well.

Judith Collins has just put her hand up for the top opposition job, so the bloodletting begins..

[Joshuatree]

Kaye is out as is Bennett( realist) who wants to keep her job as no2(dreaming)

[winner69]

W69, it has taken National nine years to just get close to the operating position that Labour held through their last term of office. And Labour grew the economy and labour force as well.

Judith Collins has just put her hand up for the top opposition job, so the bloodletting begins..

Way Grant is talking hard to see this government running a surplus

[minimoke]

Kaye is out as is Bennett( realist) who wants to keep her job as no2(dreaming)Seems like Mark Mitchell is keen - who is he? Kaye / Bennet = keeping tinder dry.

[fungus pudding]

Seems like Mark Mitchell is keen - who is he? Kaye / Bennet = keeping tinder dry.

He is a National politician with the same problem as Simon Bridges.:D

[777]

W69, it has taken National nine years to just get close to the operating position that Labour held through their last term of office. And Labour grew the economy and labour force as well.

Judith Collins has just put her hand up for the top opposition job, so the bloodletting begins..

eZ don't forget this when you say how fantastic the previous government was. And don't get me started on what obvious challenges National had during their reign. Even you can work those out.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/456672/Rail-buy-back-cost-nears-1-5b

[Joshuatree]

Looks like Amy Adams will be throwing her hat in the ring this arvo as well.

[fungus pudding]

Looks like Amy Adams will be throwing her hat in the ring this arvo as well.
Good luck Amy. She and Joyce - ideal.

[minimoke]

Good luck Amy. She and Joyce - ideal.
Oh Lord Please don't let it be Collins (though I will concede stick her in for 12 months may not be a bad thing)

[Joshuatree]

:t_up:Collins would be perfect. Her mate at whale oil will dish all the dirt for her and the actions started by Joyce and english will solidify the country opinion that national is an unworthy, unethical party. How may times does it take being honest to neutralise a deceit, too many ; people dont forget.Make it crusher the bulldozer collins, a bit like muldoon in a skirt imo.

[BlackPeter]

I keep hearing it said that Ms Collins is polarising. A few comments above that appear to agree with that. But why? She is popular in her electorate. The Oravida issue must surely be fading into the mists of time. She has forceful opinions on some subjects, but politicians should.

Why do some hate her so much. Genuine question.

I hear that Trump is as well popular in his electorate ... however from a leader you (or at least I ;)) would expect that (s)he does not turn her supporters into "winners" by turning the rest of the population off, but that (s)he is able to work for everybody. Win-win is neither Collins nor Trumps game. Collins loves only Collins and fights everybody who is not supporting her.

Collins might be a great attack dog, but I hope for National they keep her in the kennel. She may (if elected) lead National into a disaster, but she will never ever be PM.

Collins is turning off the political "middle ground" - and without them no party is able to govern under MMP.

Quite easy choice - support Collins and make sure National stays for a long time in opposition. I am sure EZ, westerly & co do love Collins.

[westerly]

Oh Lord Please don't let it be Collins (though I will concede stick her in for 12 months may not be a bad thing)

"But National's problems still run deep. It might be facing a succession of caretaker or temporary leaders, the usual pattern for opposition parties."

Quote from "The Press" editorial this morning. None of the candidates rated with the usually conservative paper.
Bill will be missed

westerly

[elZorro]

eZ don't forget this when you say how fantastic the previous government was. And don't get me started on what obvious challenges National had during their reign. Even you can work those out.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/456672/Rail-buy-back-cost-nears-1-5b

But Labour grew the tax take by billions each year, without anyone being particularly hurt by that. It's quite simple, more were in work and less were collecting the dole, and the demand for products and services increased. In that background, the extra capital costs for the rail network were small change. What would have happened if they didn't buy back the rail network? How much more would have been spent on roads, and what about the congestion?

I think this commentary about Bill English's stint as deputy and PM is fairly accurate.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11993637

[777]

"But National's problems still run deep. It might be facing a succession of caretaker or temporary leaders, the usual pattern for opposition parties."

Quote from "The Press" editorial this morning. None of the candidates rated with the usually conservative paper.
Bill will be missed

westerly

The only pattern was set up by Labour in the past nine years. You guys just dream this crap up.

[777]

But Labour grew the tax take by billions each year, without anyone being particularly hurt by that. It's quite simple, more were in work and less were collecting the dole, and the demand for products and services increased. In that background, the extra capital costs for the rail network were small change. What would have happened if they didn't buy back the rail network? How much more would have been spent on roads, and what about the congestion?

I think this commentary about Bill English's stint as deputy and PM is fairly accurate.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11993637

Get rid of your rose tinted glasses eZ. They were dumped because of their performance and social engineering which we are still suffering from.

[Joshuatree]

Are you suffering 7 so that the many may not lol, wash your mouth out boy with soap.Dont need to talk dirty.

[iceman]

I think Bill deserves a bit of credit. He was a very good and steady Finance Minister. After taking over fast deteriorating books from the previous Government, due to their expensive election bribes, then being hit with the double whammy of the GFC and the biggest natural disaster in NZ´s history, he managed within a few years to get Government books into surplus without slashing benefits. In fact he was the first Finance Minister for decades to increase benefits in real terms.


Another big achievement for him personally has been his focus on effective social investment. Many, from across the political spectrum, admit very few have better knowledge of the real social ills facing NZ. He looked beyond meaningless statistics and focused on where the need was most critical. It is estimated that this focus in the last few years has reduced the number of children growing up in benefit dependant households by about 61,000.
That is real World stuff and real improvements in the life and possibilites of these young kids.
Shame on Labour for discontinuing it. No doubt worried about being held to account for delivery of real improvements

The 3rd thing he deserves a mention for is the huge number of Treaty of Waitangi settlements under his watch and driven by Chris Finlayson. Leaves Labour in shame on that front.

I say well done Bill and thank you. Good luck with future endeavours.

[Joshuatree]

Yes he did at least try , credit there.

"We saw that last year in other ways. He didn't seem to know there was a poverty crisis far bigger than was allowed for by the targeted reforms of social investment. He didn't seem to know, either, that Auckland housing was in crisis. Why didn't he?
Most of all, he didn't grasp that in a strong economy there is no excuse for ignoring the suffering of the most vulnerable – or, from a political point of view, of leaving yourself open to the charge that you don't care." Opinion: Bill English, the leader who wasn't (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11993637)

[westerly]

The only pattern was set up by Labour in the past nine years. You guys just dream this crap up.

Read the editorial, without the closed mind.

westerly

[elZorro]

Read the editorial, without the closed mind.

westerly

The commentary politely forgot about Bill's refusal to backtrack on the Todd Barclay incident, too.

Saw this article on why Simon Bridges is likely to be the new opposition leader.. despite everyone being keen on Judith Collins out in the blogosphere, maybe that's not a representative sample of voters. Anyway, money talks.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11995310

[Joshuatree]

Warning a few people may need to turn the other cheek.:D
1New Zealand’s Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, Is Young, Forward-Looking, and Unabashedly Liberal—Call Her the Anti-Trump (https://www.vogue.com/article/jacinda-ardern-new-zealand-prime-minister-vogue-march-2018-issue)

[blackcap]

Warning a few people may need to turn the other cheek.:D
1New Zealand’s Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, Is Young, Forward-Looking, and Unabashedly Liberal—Call Her the Anti-Trump (https://www.vogue.com/article/jacinda-ardern-new-zealand-prime-minister-vogue-march-2018-issue)

Puke inducing if I may say so. No need to go past the photo really.

[Joshuatree]

Gott:t_up:ya,Lol told ya to turn the other.

Judith Collins or Simon Bridges next LOL

What a shame Bill didn't think of it:D

[macduffy]

despite everyone being keen on Judith Collins out in the blogosphere,

Only amongst Labour supporters.

;)

[macduffy]

Warning a few people may need to turn the other cheek.:D
1New Zealand’s Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, Is Young, Forward-Looking, and Unabashedly Liberal—Call Her the Anti-Trump (https://www.vogue.com/article/jacinda-ardern-new-zealand-prime-minister-vogue-march-2018-issue)

Well, she's right about Allbirds shoes being comfortable. Fashion doesn't matter to us enthusiasts!

:)

[elZorro]

Puke inducing if I may say so. No need to go past the photo really.

Well I thought the article was great, gave a bit of insight into where NZ is heading from here. Blackcap, you have to think about the poor Labour supporters who have been on the sidelines for 9 years and were feeling powerless, now they have a bit of spring in their step. Time for the Nats to to a bit of navel-gazing themselves, and rue the day they were put out to pasture for probably nine years.

Sure, there are still some local Nat MPs and list MPs, being paid to run their offices and help out their constituents. But they won't get to work the levers, and fully populate all the councils and boards around the place. So yes, you might well puke at that, but you should get used to it - National is out in the cold for a while.

[BlackPeter]

Well I thought the article was great, gave a bit of insight into where NZ is heading from here. Blackcap, you have to think about the poor Labour supporters who have been on the sidelines for 9 years and were feeling powerless, now they have a bit of spring in their step. Time for the Nats to to a bit of navel-gazing themselves, and rue the day they were put out to pasture for probably nine years.

Sure, there are still some local Nat MPs and list MPs, being paid to run their offices and help out their constituents. But they won't get to work the levers, and fully populate all the councils and boards around the place. So yes, you might well puke at that, but you should get used to it - National is out in the cold for a while.

Nine years? You can't be serious. I guess I give you that Jacinda is trying hard. Pregnant PM modelling in Vogue - certainly something for the eye and absolutely novelty value, but whether this is sufficient for 9 years? Doubt it.

Agree as well that she seems to be better in unifying people than all of the previous Labour leaders I remember (too many to count) - but so far we haven't seen the proof that she is as well able to deliver. Jacinda effect alone won't last a year and certainly not nine.

You should not forget that National got after 3 terms in government still more votes than Labour ever mustered. Not a lot of voters Labour can afford to lose, but they will. Honeymoon is already over - unions got their knives out and demand to slaughter some absolutely well functioning schools on the altar of unionism. Will go down with the effected children and parents.

Talking about unions - just wait for the next pay rounds. Strikes are not always popular, but it must be payback time for supporting the PM, isn't it?

As well - I hear the funds for further lolly scrambles are already gone. Will make it harder to keep the voters in future aligned. Was not enough anyway, only old Winston changed the balance, and whether he will add another term - who knows?

Minor coalition partners always shrink after the first term under MMP (Winston or not). How is this Labour government positioned if Winston (or whoever) First and the Greenies both drop by say 2 to 3 percent each? Oops - you mean that's it already? Well, maybe you should better prepare for only 2 and a bit years left ...

Enjoy the time while it lasts ... :D;

[BlackPeter]

... and last not least - remember the old rule: Whoever goes into a coalition with Winston loses the next election :p. Labor is no exception in this regard.

[fungus pudding]

Well I thought the article was great, gave a bit of insight into where NZ is heading from here. Blackcap, you have to think about the poor Labour supporters who have been on the sidelines for 9 years and were feeling powerless, now they have a bit of spring in their step.


I don't think it will be long before Twyford, Lees-Galloway and/or Hipkins knock the spring out of Labour's step. And if they don't, there's a couple of odd-ball greens who will.
Strange as it may seem, NZ First are probably least likely to damage the cozy arrangement.

[Joshuatree]

That sure is an old rule BP, irrelevant in this time, you can keep living in the past but adapt or perish is a good motto for the times .
Great to see mental health and addiction workers are going to get the same rise that caregivers get, National were just so uncaring and meanspirited there. People getting closer to a living wage will lift the whole country's wellbeing, confidence and activity, spending more and increase productivity too, a win /win at last.

[iceman]

I don't think it will be long before Twyford, Lees-Galloway and/or Hipkins knock the spring out of Labour's step. And if they don't, there's a couple of odd-ball greens who will.
Strange as it may seem, NZ First are probably least likely to damage the cozy arrangement.

How long do you think that "stability" will last with them polling at 2-3% ? I give it 18 months

[fungus pudding]

How long do you think that "stability" will last with them polling at 2-3% ? I give it 18 months

Aside from the party, will Winston himself last 18 months?

[Joshuatree]

So far so very very good no probs there seeing the coalition all the way they know they have everything to gain by doing so, a no brainer, and very wishful thinking and thats fair enough too.;)

Whats more int to me is how well national are going to deal with the leadership change and how messy it may get between contestants and then the reshuffling and performance from there. National are in an even more vulnerable position now ,and where will Bills base voters end up.

[Joshuatree]

Great stuff, go for it Judy and Amy:)

Adams entourage 'broke rules' (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/101476909/collins-cries-foul-over-adams-mp-entourage-stunt)

[elZorro]

Great stuff, go for it Judy and Amy:)

Adams entourage 'broke rules' (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/101476909/collins-cries-foul-over-adams-mp-entourage-stunt)

It's quite amusing that the Adams, Bridges, Collins contest has been cleverly outed as ABC: anyone but Collins (comments below article).

[elZorro]

Audrey Young on the leadership contest. It pictures Collins as more right-wing (wants to sort the RMA yet again apparently, or is a lobby group bending her ear?) than Bridges or Adams. The latter two seen as the front-runners at this stage, in view of the caucus decision to be made.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11996196

Collins certainly wants to appear "Strong and Decisive" but is "Aggressive" more apt?

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/02/i-stab-people-in-the-front-judith-collins.html

[fungus pudding]

Audrey Young on the leadership contest. It pictures Collins as more right-wing (wants to sort the RMA yet again apparently, or is a lobby group bending her ear?) than Bridges or Adams. The latter two seen as the front-runners at this stage, in view of the caucus decision to be made.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11996196

Collins certainly wants to appear "Strong and Decisive" but is "Aggressive" more apt?

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/02/i-stab-people-in-the-front-judith-collins.html

eZ. You have spent the last few years claiming every single action, thought or word from National was somehow leading to our doom; and all Labour's policies and deeds were wonderful, designed to save the whole of mankind.
Now that Labour are in the hotseat, and showing us how wonderful they're not, how long will it take for you to see the folly of some of their ideology? Not long I suspect; but it will be snowing in hell before you admit it.

[Joshuatree]

Its a little scary how unaware collins is, its like she corrupted herself years ago just at the thought of being leader.Bring back muldoon.lol.

[Joshuatree]

The Knobz - Culture - YouTube (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj-jPW0g67ZAhVHKpQKHchNCvkQtwIIJzAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dn8 frPD7DgqI&usg=AOvVaw1aF967khHA--sBRXRjB71v)

[craic]

The latest rumour is that Winston Peters will deny that HE is seventeen weeks pregnant but will admit that he is trying very hard.

[fungus pudding]

The latest rumour is that Winston Peters will deny that HE is seventeen weeks pregnant but will admit that he is trying very hard.

Or sue you for releasing his personal information.

[blackcap]

Labour really starting to look stupid...

https://www.facebook.com/NZNATS/videos/2010353548980230/

[fungus pudding]

Labour really starting to look stupid...

https://www.facebook.com/NZNATS/videos/2010353548980230/


Not at all. eZ will explain. :D

[Joshuatree]

Garbage aka whale oil.National acolyte attack dogs stooping as usual .Hacks (paid?).

[blackcap]

Garbage aka whale oil.National acolyte attack dogs stooping as usual .Hacks (paid?).

What are you on about?

[777]

Garbage aka whale oil.National acolyte attack dogs stooping as usual .Hacks (paid?).

And the insecure arise.

[elZorro]

Not at all. eZ will explain. :D

I haven't been following this policy area. But it doesn't look to me like the coalition has changed their mind on going into the mine shaft, just the timing. It appears Pike River Coal put in an inferior gas detection system and allowed it to be disregarded or left in a failed state quite often, so it didn't affect progress too much. Everything else followed from there, and re-entry into the mine would probably confirm this.

[Joshuatree]

And the insecure arise.

I dont believe national will be back for a few terms, even more if the bag lady gets in.:DThey are in a weak position atm and could implode, Insecure i agree.

[fungus pudding]

I haven't been following this policy area. But it doesn't look to me like the coalition has changed their mind on going into the mine shaft, just the timing. It appears Pike River Coal put in an inferior gas detection system and allowed it to be disregarded or left in a failed state quite often, so it didn't affect progress too much. Everything else followed from there, and re-entry into the mine would probably confirm this.

Just the timing? Even from you eZ that's ridiculous. Tell you what - if Winston is ever first to go into that mine, I will donate fifty dollars to the Labour party. May not sound like a lot, but in terms of pain - it's huge.

[Joshuatree]

You better believe it he will be the first ;)at the head of the queue if /when it happens. In a ceremonial way of course. To think that an old man who smokes and drinks would go any further is laughable.

[BlackPeter]

You better believe it he will be the first ;)at the head of the queue if /when it happens. In a ceremonial way of course. To think that an old man who smokes and drinks would go any further is laughable.

You are saying Winston is lying? Better be careful what you imply ... he like to sue the people smearing him.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11766014


Asked if he was genuine in his offer to be the first back into the mine he maintained it was neither symbolic nor a token gesture.

[Joshuatree]

Not at all; it will be a great publicity for him to cut the ribbon so to speak and ceremonially take the first step before the experts do the task. What politician wouldn't want to after backing it.

[minimoke]

Not at all; it will be a great publicity for him to cut the ribbon so to speak and ceremonially take the first step before the experts do the task. What politician wouldn't want to after backing it.Taking advantage of the deaths of the miners in such a way would be abhorrent to any self - respecting person / party. Oh, wait.

[Joshuatree]

I find that really weird. this is all about closure for the families and finding out what happened. Cutting the ribbon "so to speak" not to celebrate but to seek closure for the families and to learn what really happened in there.

[fungus pudding]

I find that really weird. this is all about closure for the families and finding out what happened. Cutting the ribbon "so to speak" not to celebrate but to seek closure for the families and to learn what really happened in there.

Although it's never possible to know which post you are referring to, I assume it's the one about Peters. If you asssume this is anymore than grandstanding on his part you are seriouly deluded. You simply don't understand the man.

[Joshuatree]

Of course what politician wouldn't!!! i coudnt care less,and if it supports closure and finding out what happened credit to those that make it happen if it gets that far. Try putting yourself in the families shoes here, instead of being a blind hater.

[fungus pudding]

Of course what politician wouldn't!!! i coudnt care less,and if it supports closure and finding out what happened credit to those that make it happen if it gets that far. Try putting yourself in the families shoes here, instead of being a blind hater.
I don't hate you at all. We've never met.

[winner69]

Labour nearly 50% in the polls

At this rate Labour will be in the 70’s and have kicked Nats into oblivion with NZF gone completely and Greens just hanging in there.

But this isn’t the Revolution I was after

[Joshuatree]

I don't hate you at all. We've never met.

Politicians i mean. Think most of us are savvy to see WP has always blown his own trumpet for so long but one has to admire his time in politics like or dislike him. i think his last term or two may be for the better for his country with mortality and time tapping him on the shoulder. We will see.

[Joshuatree]

On a roll, did someone say the honeymoon was over:t_up:


Labour support highest in 15 years (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/101581173/labour-and-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-take-the-lead-in-new-poll)

[elZorro]

On a roll, did someone say the honeymoon was over:t_up:


Labour support highest in 15 years (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/101581173/labour-and-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-take-the-lead-in-new-poll)

That is a major change in sentiment, a very quick result. I guess a lot of people who half expected everything to fall apart (listening to the gist of many in the National strongholds) have been pleasantly surprised.

No it's not a revolution, but there is a lot of new policy that will be coming through. It'll get a lot better.

[fungus pudding]

That is a major change in sentiment, a very quick result. I guess a lot of people who half expected everything to fall apart (listening to the gist of many in the National strongholds) have been pleasantly surprised.

No it's not a revolution, but there is a lot of new policy that will be coming through. It'll get a lot better.

They are certainly winning at present and deservedly so after finding a charismatic leader who has so far managed to keep her bright red socialist agenda hidden from the hoi-polloi. But it might be temporary. As soon as voters cotton on to the hopeless Twyford and equally hopeless Lees-Galloway, not to mention Hipkins who is beyond hopeless, the Labour popularity will quietly slither away.

[Joshuatree]

T
No it's not a revolution, but there is a lot of new policy that will be coming through. It'll get a lot better.

Yes .Love the momentum here, kinda like one of my investment grade stocks, outperforming with an ascending chart, just beautiful, a long term buy and hold, but not for me, for my country.:))

[elZorro]

Looks like there are going to be at least 4 disappointed National MPs a week from now.

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/video/live-stream-steven-joyce-joins-national-leadership-race/

[Joshuatree]

Joyce admitted it was a difficult decision to make as he has a young family.
But his passion for the future of New Zealand could not be ignored.

Nah, easy choice a nobrainer for the billion $ hole liar who puts power ahead of his young family who will seldom see him involved with them... Who would want this silver tongue slippery devil. A little like Collins but less so , in the lacking in self awareness , moral and ethics stakes imo. Kinda fascinating to watch how National come out of this romper stomper rumble.

[fungus pudding]

Looks like there are going to be at least 4 disappointed National MPs a week from now.



That will be offset by the hundreds of thousands of happy NZers.