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Panda-NZ-
22-06-2020, 05:20 PM
NZ has paid and is still paying a very heavy price with the lockdowns - totally unacceptable that the government & MOH have not got a clue what is happening out there.

What do you mean? Other countries are facing damage whether there has been a lockdown or not. It's sadly unavoidable.

Joshuatree
22-06-2020, 05:31 PM
Yes check out USA, check out Aussie , china etc etcetcetcetc 2nd waves. No matter what this govt does ,unbalanced attacks? Motive? Paid national attack dog? Gynophobia? Trump mania? Whatever it is its an attack on his own country.

Balance
22-06-2020, 05:54 PM
Yes check out USA, check out Aussie , china etc etcetcetcetc 2nd waves. No matter what this govt does ,unbalanced attacks? Motive? Paid national attack dog? Gynophobia? Trump mania? Whatever it is its an attack on his own country.

Comrade Cindy & her incompetents are NOT NZ & Country.

I do not take kindly to any idiot questioning my wish for NZ to be always better than what it is.

The arrogance of your assertion that Cindy & her incompetents are NZ (our country) says a lot about your indoctrinated & emptied out mental state.

Trump is NOT USA and Scott Morrison is NOT Australia. You may think that but you will be in a minority of one.

Get that simple fact through your besotted feeble minded Labourite brainwashed head.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2020, 07:53 PM
The arrogance of your assertion says a lot about your indoctrinated & emptied out mental state.


Like someone we know right. Things are good, practice some mental hygeine, drink some herbal teas and turn off the news for a bit.

Or else you might end up like Roy Greene.. :\

justakiwi
22-06-2020, 08:14 PM
I have actually come to realise this this is what I need. We have been enveloped by Covid/lockdown for months now, and there comes a point where following it on a daily basis no longer serves any useful purpose. Get on with your lives people. Get outside and remind yourselves what a beautiful country we live in. Spend time in Nature and gain a new appreciation for what is good in your life.

I am so much happier now that I am doing exactly that. These ongoing political discussions suck the life out of you, without you even realising it.

This may have been posted before, but what the heck ... one more time won’t hurt ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU


Like someone we know right. Things are good, practice some mental hygeine, drink some herbal teas and turn off the news for a bit.

artemis
23-06-2020, 05:43 AM
No symptoms and 14 days in isolation with no testing is enough because there is community testing. So said the Prime Minister yesterday.

"The most important thing is the 14 days in isolation," she told Hosking. "The 14 days is the most cautious approach. Belts and braces are testing. Fourteen days is how you can be assured if you are symptom free that you are safe."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12341670&ref=recommendedv1

iceman
23-06-2020, 06:09 AM
We need to remember the whole picture .With re 4,000 people now in quarantine, and was it 20? hotels and growing.Putting it in perspective stuffups happen.Great to see things being improved and now tighter esp with army etc involved.

A minority refuse to cooperate, some refuse testing.
Some have mental problems
Some have illness's
Some are grieving loved ones they cant get to.
Some are less then economical with the truth.
Its not like just hotel, it needs to be A psychiatrists couch, a medical centre, a good samaritans, a detention centre , a food delivery service, an information centre , a supervison, well being, exercise, I T etc etc. Its complicated and complex and there is a shortage of specially nurses and staff .

Not sure if I am the only one but I am thoroughly sick of excuses not to follow Government rules when we are dealing with a war like emergency. The Herald and Stuff daily publishing "stories" of bleating moaning idiots that can not deal with holidaying in a hotel for 14 days, is not helpful. None of the above justifies the moaning (except maybe mental illness) about the situation they are in BY CHOICE.
Everyone should have to sign an agreement and promise to adhere to the rules BEFORE they get on a flight and it should be clearly outlined that any breach of the rules will result in full cost recovery of quarantine expenses, heavy fines or jail time.

Balance
23-06-2020, 06:30 AM
An idea of what it is like to be in 5 star quarantine :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/419573/quarantine-australian-style-a-five-star-prison-that-takes-its-toll

Not easy for those used to open spaces but it is a choice when one decides or have to travel for whatever reason.

dobby41
23-06-2020, 07:01 AM
An idea of what it is like to be in 5 star quarantine :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/419573/quarantine-australian-style-a-five-star-prison-that-takes-its-toll

Not easy for those used to open spaces but it is a choice when one decides or have to travel for whatever reason.

Then there are those who suggest that we are pampering people in the hotels (giving them wifi even) and maybe Waiouru would be better?

dobby41
23-06-2020, 07:03 AM
This may have been posted before, but what the heck ... one more time won’t hurt ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

Couldn't agree more - worry about the things you can control (and you don't even need to 'worry' about them because you are in control).

Joshuatree
23-06-2020, 10:07 AM
Not sure if I am the only one but I am thoroughly sick of excuses not to follow Government rules when we are dealing with a war like emergency. The Herald and Stuff daily publishing "stories" of bleating moaning idiots that can not deal with holidaying in a hotel for 14 days, is not helpful. None of the above justifies the moaning (except maybe mental illness) about the situation they are in BY CHOICE.
Everyone should have to sign an agreement and promise to adhere to the rules BEFORE they get on a flight and it should be clearly outlined that any breach of the rules will result in full cost recovery of quarantine expenses, heavy fines or jail time.


AGREE, wish it was that simple.

Balance
23-06-2020, 10:58 AM
Not sure if I am the only one but I am thoroughly sick of excuses not to follow Government rules when we are dealing with a war like emergency. The Herald and Stuff daily publishing "stories" of bleating moaning idiots that can not deal with holidaying in a hotel for 14 days, is not helpful. None of the above justifies the moaning (except maybe mental illness) about the situation they are in BY CHOICE.
Everyone should have to sign an agreement and promise to adhere to the rules BEFORE they get on a flight and it should be clearly outlined that any breach of the rules will result in full cost recovery of quarantine expenses, heavy fines or jail time.

There are only a few stories about returnees moaning.

Most of them have been about the lack of communication, confusion, ever changing rules & procedures and concern about lack of physical distancing & basic quarantine safeguards.

The ones who care about their health and are concern about being infected by the virus, and potentially to their loved ones when they leave quarantine, are rightly alerting the media - who else are they supposed to voice their concerns when MOH is in disarray?

We should be grateful that they are talking to the media - otherwise we would be blissfully unaware of the mess which passed as quarantine by this government & MOH.

dobby41
23-06-2020, 11:06 AM
There are only a few stories about returnees moaning.


Just bear in mind that like social media posts these are a few peoples opinions, they will have them for a variety of reasons.
I'm not trying to discount them but beware of cognitive bias.

moka
23-06-2020, 01:44 PM
An idea of what it is like to be in 5 star quarantine :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/419573/quarantine-australian-style-a-five-star-prison-that-takes-its-toll

Not easy for those used to open spaces but it is a choice when one decides or have to travel for whatever reason.
And a choice to decline the test. The woman in the article said "on day three and 12 they knocked on our door and offered us a Covid-19 test. I declined both times knowing how horrible the test was." She was in Australia not NZ.

Joshuatree
23-06-2020, 04:41 PM
We need to remember the whole picture .With re 4,000 people now in quarantine, and was it 20? hotels and growing.Putting it in perspective stuffups happen.Great to see things being improved and now tighter esp with army etc involved.

A minority refuse to cooperate, some refuse testing.
Some have mental problems
Some have illness's
Some are grieving loved ones they cant get to.
Some are less then economical with the truth.
Its not like just hotel, it needs to be A psychiatrists couch, a medical centre, a good samaritans, a detention centre , a food delivery service, an information centre , a supervison, well being, exercise, I T etc etc. Its complicated and complex and there is a shortage of specially nurses and staff .


Media 'over-reacting' to new Covid-19 cases in NZ - academic (https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018751865/media-over-reacting-to-new-covid-19-cases-in-nz-academic)

Balance
23-06-2020, 05:09 PM
Media 'over-reacting' to new Covid-19 cases in NZ - academic (https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018751865/media-over-reacting-to-new-covid-19-cases-in-nz-academic)

Nobody is over-reacting to the appearance of infections amongst those in quarantine.

The angry and fearful reaction is due to the shambolic, lax & sloppy quarantine practices:

- no testing before leaving quarantine

- no idea still how many left quarantine without being tested

Pathetic apologist for incompetence & false assurances.

Balance
23-06-2020, 05:14 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/121917273/coronavirus-scotland-to-nz-and-two-weeks-quarantine-but-no-test

This is why NZers are so angry and pxssed off with the quarantine regime. It was a holiday camp with travellers in quarantine being allowed to mingle and mix without restrictions.

Thank goodness the media & Opposition put the boot into the MOH & the government to wake up and take the quarantine regime seriously.

Panda-NZ-
23-06-2020, 05:16 PM
If they are in 14 days isolation anyway on entry to NZ then what's the point of the test. Lots of fake news out there. I'm glad they are being done now for extra assurance though.

jmsnz
23-06-2020, 05:27 PM
If they are in 14 days isolation anyway on entry to NZ then what's the point of the test. Lots of fake news out there. I'm glad they are being done now for extra assurance though.

what's the point of the test? Because:
1) by all accounts they are not in 14 day 'isolation' - those arriving on day 13 of someone's isolation my come into contact with them
2) 14 days is just a best guess/pragmatic response to how long the virus may take to present
3) The general public perceive that they have 'taken one for team' by being in lock down, not being able to visit loved ones, losing jobs etc. They categorically want new arrivals to do the same and they don't get the feeling that is happening at the moment

Balance
23-06-2020, 06:21 PM
what's the point of the test? Because:
1) by all accounts they are not in 14 day 'isolation' - those arriving on day 13 of someone's isolation my come into contact with them
2) 14 days is just a best guess/pragmatic response to how long the virus may take to present
3) The general public perceive that they have 'taken one for team' by being in lock down, not being able to visit loved ones, losing jobs etc. They categorically want new arrivals to do the same and they don't get the feeling that is happening at the moment

And NZers are rightly outraged - it was a holiday camp with all travellers mingling and mixing. What a freaking joke on all our expense.

What is unbelievable are the feeble attempts to excuse by the shambolic quarantine regime which put all of NZ at risk of an outbreak by the apologists.

Balance
23-06-2020, 06:57 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342253

Shift the goalpost as usual for the ever-guaranteed-not-to-be-able-to- deliver Comrade Cindy & her Labourite team of incompetents.

They must think NZers are all mugs - fortunately it is a minority as we know from last election.

Joshuatree
23-06-2020, 09:17 PM
There is only one mug here and its empty.
Empty vessels make the loudest noise


"Some breach the conditions and congregate socially, but probably a small minority. Security staff cannot be everywhere in a hotel, and if they were, someone would complain about that. We have heard the voices of several complaining returners. The vast majority are presumably coping, tolerating their situation and doing what they are asked to do."

Media 'over-reacting' to new Covid-19 cases in NZ - academic (https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018751865/media-over-reacting-to-new-covid-19-cases-in-nz-academic)
We’ve been told when we went down to level 1 that there would be new cases emerging from the people who are returning to New Zealand.
“And yet when these cases began to be reported all of a sudden it was as if the Government had lied …. well there were going to be new cases everybody who had been following events knew that was going to happen.”

"We should also have more understanding and sympathy for the staff, officials and security managing the quarantine. In the circumstances, breaches and errors can happen: they do not mean ‘a flawed system’ or a catastrophe.The fact that there were new cases emerging shouldn’t have been a big surprise. The huge emphasis on testing I think is also excessive, because testing is really icing on the cake, it’s the 14-day isolation that is the most important thing as far as the epidemiologists are concerned

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23...antine-system/ (https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-06-2020/exclusive-poll-reveals-public-impact-of-failures-in-nz-covid-quarantine-system/)

Balance
23-06-2020, 09:29 PM
There is only one mug here and its empty.
Empty vessels make the loudest noise


"Some breach the conditions and congregate socially, but probably a small minority. Security staff cannot be everywhere in a hotel, and if they were, someone would complain about that. We have heard the voices of several complaining returners. The vast majority are presumably coping, tolerating their situation and doing what they are asked to do."

Media 'over-reacting' to new Covid-19 cases in NZ - academic (https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018751865/media-over-reacting-to-new-covid-19-cases-in-nz-academic)
We’ve been told when we went down to level 1 that there would be new cases emerging from the people who are returning to New Zealand.
“And yet when these cases began to be reported all of a sudden it was as if the Government had lied …. well there were going to be new cases everybody who had been following events knew that was going to happen.”

"We should also have more understanding and sympathy for the staff, officials and security managing the quarantine. In the circumstances, breaches and errors can happen: they do not mean ‘a flawed system’ or a catastrophe.The fact that there were new cases emerging shouldn’t have been a big surprise. The huge emphasis on testing I think is also excessive, because testing is really icing on the cake, it’s the 14-day isolation that is the most important thing as far as the epidemiologists are concerned

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23...antine-system/ (https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-06-2020/exclusive-poll-reveals-public-impact-of-failures-in-nz-covid-quarantine-system/)

Yup, cases were always going to happen at the border from quarantine - everyone accepts that.

What NZers are outraged about and are not prepared to accept is the shambolic, disorganised and confused quarantine regime which allowed returnees to have a party, mingle and mix and put at risk all the hard work and effort put in by them to contain the virus.

Too hard for you to understand that, Joshuatree as you believe Cindy=NZ. Hard to believe how any grown up with any sense can come up with such a proposition - unless he possesses a besotted feeble brain.

Joshuatree
23-06-2020, 09:42 PM
I suggest comrade that you speak only for yourself.You are not mouthpiece for NZ. Try accentuating the positive and eliminating the negative, latch on to the affirmative dont mess with with mr in-between. Going by recent poll it looks like thats what people are doing. To focus only on the negative leads only one way and thats not a path i would advise to anyone. Good night.

artemis
24-06-2020, 06:11 AM
What happened to the testing 'gold standard'?

dobby41
24-06-2020, 08:12 AM
what's the point of the test? Because:
1) by all accounts they are not in 14 day 'isolation' - those arriving on day 13 of someone's isolation my come into contact with them
2) 14 days is just a best guess/pragmatic response to how long the virus may take to present
3) The general public perceive that they have 'taken one for team' by being in lock down, not being able to visit loved ones, losing jobs etc. They categorically want new arrivals to do the same and they don't get the feeling that is happening at the moment

When we went into lockdown WE kept ourselves socialy distant etc. Why are returnees coming into contact if they are keeping THEMSELVES socially distant?
I believe that the 'negative test before leaving' was supposed to be in place since we went into level 1. No test was OK when we were in level 4-2 yet now it has become a 'drop dead' issue.
People need to get some perspective which is generally impossible when they are frothing and ranting.

dobby41
24-06-2020, 08:13 AM
What happened to the testing 'gold standard'?

I believe that was dropped when fiat currencies came in. :t_up:

dobby41
24-06-2020, 08:22 AM
I heard Michael Woodhouse on the radio yesterday about the homeless man saga
He said that saying that the homeless man may be an urban myth just wasn't good enough and that 'just because they can find no evidence that he existed dosn't mean that he doesn't exist'.
Clutching at straws there, could be used as 'evidence' for lots of things.

Meanwhile Megan Woods has formally asked Woodhouse for more information after they scoured CCTV etc and can't find evidence of the man.

Balance
24-06-2020, 08:35 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342324

Only 4 out of 55 granted compassionate exemption tested.

Took one whole week before data is available.

One sorry episode of incompetence after another.

Balance
24-06-2020, 08:39 AM
When we went into lockdown WE kept ourselves socialy distant etc. Why are returnees coming into contact if they are keeping THEMSELVES socially distant?
I believe that the 'negative test before leaving' was supposed to be in place since we went into level 1. No test was OK when we were in level 4-2 yet now it has become a 'drop dead' issue.
People need to get some perspective which is generally impossible when they are frothing and ranting.

‘Drop dead’ because by Comrade Cindy’s own admission (excuse actually), times have become extremely dangerous out there with new infections overseas skyrocketing - Hence the need to ramp up testing to protect our border control.

And at L1, we do not want the virus back in the community via a broken down unreliable quarantine border control system.

Simple, isn’t it but like kiwibuild, the delivery is as usual non-existent from this government.

dobby41
24-06-2020, 08:45 AM
‘Drop dead’ because by Comrade Cindy’s own admission (excuse actually), times have become extremely dangerous out there with new infections overseas skyrocketing - Hence the need to ramp up testing to protect our border control.

And at L1, we do not want the virus back in the community via a broken down unreliable quarantine border control system.

Simple, isn’t it but like kiwibuild, the delivery is as usual non-existent from this government.

And ramp up testing they have - good thing eh!

Balance
24-06-2020, 08:57 AM
And ramp up testing they have - good thing eh!

Yup - only after their incompetence and shambolic mismanagement were revealed for all to see.

Good indeed!

Balance
24-06-2020, 09:03 AM
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]There is only one mug here and its empty.
Empty vessels make the loudest noise




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SBb465bF0

Enjoy - here's the empty vessel celebrating NZ becoming covid free or is it becoming covid live again?

i am getting confused - please clarify.

westerly
24-06-2020, 09:12 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SBb465bF0

i am getting confused - please clarify.

So i have noticed :)

westerly

blackcap
24-06-2020, 09:14 AM
Yup - only after their incompetence and shambolic mismanagement were revealed for all to see.

Good indeed!

That is why for a democracy to flourish, no matter who is in government at the time, a strong opposition is essential. Without Seymour et al asking "nasty" questions, the border shambles would have gone on and we would 100% get community transmission (undetected). Now we will likely get community transmission but it may be contained a lot easier.

Balance
24-06-2020, 09:15 AM
So i have noticed :)

westerly

So you agree that Comrade Cindy is celebrating the return of covid-19 back to NZ with her jig?

Cannot be because NZ is covid-free as the virus is back on our shores?

She looks rather gleeful, don't you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SBb465bF0

dobby41
24-06-2020, 09:17 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SBb465bF0

Enjoy - here's the empty vessel celebrating NZ becoming covid free or is it becoming covid live again?

i am getting confused - please clarify.

You don't believe that do you?
Maybe you do - that's scary.

We are still covid free - no community transmission.
We will ALWAYS get cases at the border unless we force an isolation BEFORE the border.

dobby41
24-06-2020, 09:28 AM
So you agree that Comrade Cindy is celebrating the return of covid-19 back to NZ with her jig?

Cannot be because NZ is covid-free as the virus is back on our shores?

She looks rather gleeful, don't you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SBb465bF0

Now you have resorted to trolling or fake news.
You are getting less and less balanced.

Balance
24-06-2020, 09:33 AM
You don't believe that do you?
Maybe you do - that's scary.

We are still covid free - no community transmission.
We will ALWAYS get cases at the border unless we force an isolation BEFORE the border.

Fact is - we do not know until the next few weeks play out as there have been no mandatory testing of returnees before they are released back into the community.

As you know, it just needs one (we had two which were fortunately detected but contact tracing is still ongoing) mingling out there to create a cluster.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342324

"While we don't want to over-egg the souffle, we have to make the assumption these people have reseeded the infection in the community. We have to act accordingly to quickly re-achieve the elimination."

Gorman said in order to stay safe, people needed to retain hygiene habits - including washing hands and, if they felt unwell, staying at home and getting tested in more serious cases. "I think we can rely on the military to get the border right. They don't have the same lack of discipline you have among many health officials."

dobby41
24-06-2020, 10:22 AM
Fact is - we do not know until the next few weeks play out as there have been no mandatory testing of returnees before they are released back into the community.

As you know, it just needs one (we had two which were fortunately detected but contact tracing is still ongoing) mingling out there to create a cluster.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342324

"While we don't want to over-egg the souffle, we have to make the assumption these people have reseeded the infection in the community. We have to act accordingly to quickly re-achieve the elimination."

Gorman said in order to stay safe, people needed to retain hygiene habits - including washing hands and, if they felt unwell, staying at home and getting tested in more serious cases. "I think we can rely on the military to get the border right. They don't have the same lack of discipline you have among many health officials."

Many people have many opinions on this - much conflicting 'expert' opinion.
Gorman also said
"I have just been dumbfounded that all of this stuff wasn't in place in February."
So disagrees with other experts who don't think it was necessary in Feb.

He's certainly right that we should ALL practice good hygiene etc. I am still amazed that everyone seems to think (from the people I see) that it is all over.
This has been a good wakeup call for everyone IMO. Maybe people will start taking it seriously again.

stoploss
24-06-2020, 11:09 AM
Broken promises from the leader and another Twyford failure ... how many more will he have ?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300041249/governments-flagship-transport-policy-axed

Balance
24-06-2020, 11:15 AM
Broken promises from the leader and another Twyford failure ... how many more will he have ?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300041249/governments-flagship-transport-policy-axed

He will be promoted by Comrade Cindy to #3 position - good lightning rod material to take the charge away from dear leader.

jonu
24-06-2020, 11:38 AM
He will be promoted by Comrade Cindy to #3 position - good lightning rod material to take the charge away from dear leader.

Something doesn't make sense around all this. Even the Cynical One must see he's dog tucker. What has gone on behind the scenes? What internal machinations are happening that Twyford merits being in Cabinet, let alone promoted to 4th on the list?

Maybe El Zorro knows what the inside dirt is? All we hear from all the other Coalition apologists is that everything is ticketyboo!

stoploss
24-06-2020, 11:46 AM
He will be promoted by Comrade Cindy to #3 position - good lightning rod material to take the charge away from dear leader.

He could go all the way for services to NZ .
400/10000 kiwibuild homes in the first term ....
Light rail axed , sounds like about a $ 6 bio saving to taxpayers , so maybe they won't have to put taxes up ?

fungus pudding
24-06-2020, 12:02 PM
He could go all the way for services to NZ .
400/10000 kiwibuild homes in the first term ....
Light rail axed , sounds like about a $ 6 bio saving to taxpayers , so maybe they won't have to put taxes up ?

Don't be silly.

Balance
24-06-2020, 03:35 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300041542/james-shaw-says-nz-first-are-breaching-their-coalition-agreement-by-axing-light-rail-plan

So Greens are angry with NZF for scuttling light rail - breach of coalition agreement etc etc.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342676

But Comrade Cindy says it’s just MMP.

They cannot be both right so who is wrong?

Guess it is like a dog returning to its vomit - Labour & Cindy will just have to swallow it up.

nztx
24-06-2020, 04:41 PM
He will be promoted by Comrade Cindy to #3 position - good lightning rod material to take the charge away from dear leader.

Will that be before or after a well deserved name change to one of the following - "Phil Failure" ; "Full Failure" or "Fool Failure" ? ;)

jonu
24-06-2020, 05:20 PM
Andrew Little gets given a lesson in the law and the Bill of Rights.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121927963/sexual-violence-bill-inflicts-damaging-effects-to-right-to-a-fair-trial

What did we do to deserve this twat?

blackcap
24-06-2020, 05:23 PM
Andrew Little gets given a lesson in the law and the Bill of Rights.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121927963/sexual-violence-bill-inflicts-damaging-effects-to-right-to-a-fair-trial

What did we do to deserve this twat?

Andrew Little is a dangerous man and the quicker he is got rid of the better for this country.

jonu
24-06-2020, 05:28 PM
The Esteemed Leader, the Commissar in Chief is merely disappointed in the Light Rail debacle. Says it's democracy and MMP. Her third person in the awkward bed is spitting tacks and calling it a breach of the Coalition Agreement.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300041542/james-shaw-says-nz-first-are-breaching-their-coalition-agreement-by-axing-light-rail-plan

Quarantine Cockup and now a Coalition in tatters. The hits keep coming. Ineptitude will always get up and bite you in the arse at some stage. The ducks are lining up for Cindy and her Cabinet of Incompetents.

jonu
24-06-2020, 05:30 PM
Andrew Little is a dangerous man and the quicker he is got rid of the better for this country.

Agreed. He has no idea of the damage he is doing. Blissfully ignorant.

artemis
24-06-2020, 05:35 PM
Labour's big ticket manifesto items should have had detailed project plans prepared and stress tested while in Opposition. They had 9 years to plan. In the case of Kiwibuild it was big ticket policy since 2012. Turned out to be a slogan without much substance.

To be fair there was a 100 day plan, and it was met, with much fanfare. But look closer and most of the list was spending money or setting something up.

The government has had some successes but complex delivery not so much. Yet any government has an army of resources available to deliver. It's not like Ministers have to do the grunt work themselves. They are the Executive team, their job is to drive the delivery of the vision.

jonu
24-06-2020, 05:39 PM
Dr Bloomfield now apparently banished from the Beehive Press Gallery facility. Parceled off down the road to a venue he felt he needed to apologise to journalists for being cramped.

The reason? Separation from the Cynical One. Cindy doesn't want to be seen alongside the Good Doctor any more. Heaven forbid they cross paths in the corridor or worse yet, appear on the same stage.

The minute there was uncomfortable and bad news she was goneburgher. Done were the daily propaganda sessions. Cindy found better things to do with her time. Let's see....like butchering Light Rail.

Baa_Baa
24-06-2020, 05:46 PM
Kelvin Davis dreadful interview on RNZ tonight, about the $m's gifted to tourism businesses like Hackett and the options for loans after that. Could not give a straight or factual answer to any of the questions, no idea whether loans backed by assets, didn't know the interest rate ... on and on. What an absolutely disgraceful display of ineptitude.

Bring on the election, Labour after screwing the economy by saving all but 22 people, is now completely out of their depth with the broken border controls, no idea whether their lax controls have seeded community infection again, and absolutely no idea how to recover an economy except spraying tax payer dollars around like confetti. Run by a bunch of complete muppets.

Panda-NZ-
24-06-2020, 06:50 PM
Bring on the election, Labour after screwing the economy by saving all but 22 people, is now completely out of their depth with the broken border controls, no idea whether their lax controls have seeded community infection again, and absolutely no idea how to recover an economy except spraying tax payer dollars around like confetti. Run by a bunch of complete muppets.

They aren't broken at all, everyone is required to go into managed isolation for 14 days. Tests don't matter and uninspiring Todd knows this but wants to score cheap hits. All he seems to do is grasp onto any bad headline he can. Mediocre opposition.

macduffy
24-06-2020, 07:44 PM
Agreed. He has no idea of the damage he is doing. Blissfully ignorant.

And he is our Justice Minister?

:(

winner69
24-06-2020, 08:02 PM
Minister Clark definitely don’t like Ashley

Threw him under the bus good and proper


https://twitter.com/tovaobrien/status/1275684416975777793?s=21

Balance
24-06-2020, 08:15 PM
Minister Clark definitely don’t like Ashley

Threw him under the bus good and proper


https://twitter.com/tovaobrien/status/1275684416975777793?s=21

What an arsehole. No other way of describing David Clark. :t_down:

jmsnz
24-06-2020, 08:22 PM
Dr Bloomfield now apparently banished from the Beehive Press Gallery facility. Parceled off down the road to a venue he felt he needed to apologise to journalists for being cramped.

The reason? Separation from the Cynical One. Cindy doesn't want to be seen alongside the Good Doctor any more. Heaven forbid they cross paths in the corridor or worse yet, appear on the same stage.

The minute there was uncomfortable and bad news she was goneburgher. Done were the daily propaganda sessions. Cindy found better things to do with her time. Let's see....like butchering Light Rail.

The treatment of Dr Bloomfield seems to me to be dreadful. I understand his role to be Director General of Health is (loosely) described here https://www.health.govt.nz/about-ministry/leadership-ministry/roles-have-statutory-function

That doesn't seem to include:
- Responsibility for border control
- Responsibility for managing quarante facilities
- Participation in party political broadcasts as we experienced at the end of lock down

As a layman I think his performance in what are obviously very difficult and unusual times has been excellent all things considered. To see him thrown under the bus twice in the last week is a worry to be honest and I think we would be worse off without him. A serious question though, who would you most like to see managing the COVID response:
- Ashley Bloomfield
- Jacinda Adern
- Kelvern Davis
- Phil Twyford
- David Clark
- Michael Woodhouse
- National party leader (I can't even remember his name)

The point is we are in trouble when ministers don't take responsibility for their portfolios. If they can delegate responsibility to Bloomfield surely he can delegate responsibility down the line as well.

Panda-NZ-
24-06-2020, 08:40 PM
He was treated like crap by Simon too. politicians eh. I too think he has done a good job so far and the military now controls whoever was in charge of isolating the returning expats.

Balance
25-06-2020, 07:18 AM
Minister of Embarrassing Failures - Phil Twyford

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300041779/phil-twyford-minister-of-embarrassing-failures

Balance
25-06-2020, 07:41 AM
The treatment of Dr Bloomfield seems to me.

The point is we are in trouble when ministers don't take responsibility for their portfolios. If they can delegate responsibility to Bloomfield surely he can delegate responsibility down the line as well.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342772

This is going to hurt Labour in the election - David Clark is completely spineless & gutless.

So much for ‘Be Kind’ 😡

dobby41
25-06-2020, 12:07 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342324

"While we don't want to over-egg the souffle, we have to make the assumption these people have reseeded the infection in the community. We have to act accordingly to quickly re-achieve the elimination."

Gorman said in order to stay safe, people needed to retain hygiene habits - including washing hands and, if they felt unwell, staying at home and getting tested in more serious cases. "I think we can rely on the military to get the border right. They don't have the same lack of discipline you have among many health officials."

It seems that the esteemed Professor is an expert in Occupational Health rather than Epidemioligy.
So, as I suggested, just a person with an opinion.
Jacinda eviscerating Muller in the House yesterday.
https://play.stuff.co.nz/details/_6166800771001

Balance
25-06-2020, 12:26 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/06/duncan-garner-jacinda-ardern-s-big-promises-have-failed-spectacularly.html

Transformative?

Comrade Cindy & her incompetents have NOT delivered on one single ‘transformative’ election promise.

Truth is, they cannot even deliver a letter to a PO Box.

jonu
25-06-2020, 01:28 PM
Labour's under the carpet sweepers are out in full force. Tamati Coffey doesn't want to know and throws the hot potato to Megan Woods...who doesn't want to know.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121930615/untested-pupil-leaves-isolation-and-returns-to-school

These idiots have spent tens of billions keeping us locked down and haven't the competency to follow through and make sure that it's not money down the drain.

Why is it only the opposition local MP that is outraged? Why isn't Coffey up in arms on behalf of his constituents? Is he scared of being pushed even further down the list to make way for the likes of Twyford?

jonu
25-06-2020, 04:21 PM
Holy Cow...even leftie commentator Chris Trotter has torn Cindy's government a new one.

Watch the interview in the link below. He canvasses the widely acknowledged view of Ardern being a brilliant communicator and not much else. Scathing of her Cabinet. Trotter would be one of the most respected leftist commentators in the country.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/disgrace-clark-definition-of-non-essential-worker-humiliated-bloomfield-muller/ar-BB15W7s3?ocid=msedgntp

Balance
25-06-2020, 04:36 PM
Holy Cow...even leftie commentator Chris Trotter has torn Cindy's government a new one.

Watch the interview in the link below. He canvasses the widely acknowledged view of Ardern being a brilliant communicator and not much else. Scathing of her Cabinet. Trotter would be one of the most respected leftist commentators in the country.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/disgrace-clark-definition-of-non-essential-worker-humiliated-bloomfield-muller/ar-BB15W7s3?ocid=msedgntp

Oh wow!

The most scathing criticism of this Labour government ever - and from Chris Trotter as you wrote!

" People are so grumpy & angry about this.

The only reason we got through this is because WE ALL DID OUR JOB.

And now when it comes to be what seems to be the simple end, where it is simply to keep people locked in hotel rooms - they CAN'T DO IT. "

And there are those who want to entrust this government of incompetents to steer NZ out of the worse recession since the great depression! Scary & frightening thought!

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 05:03 PM
Oh wow!


And now when it comes to be what seems to be the simple end, where it is simply to keep people locked in hotel rooms "



50 released slightly early out of 20k+ who have successfully completed their isolation period. Sadly the govt seems to have listened to Simon Bridges and National MPs call to let some out on compassionate leave early for funderals. Which shouldn't have happened of course.

jonu
25-06-2020, 06:11 PM
50 released slightly early out of 20k+ who have successfully completed their isolation period. Sadly the govt seems to have listened to Simon Bridges and National MPs call to let some out on compassionate leave early for funderals. Which shouldn't have happened of course.

Argue with Chris Trotter....a labourite since before Aunty Helen cut her political teeth. The most scathing criticism I have ever seen from a leftist commentator on a government of their own leaning.

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 06:16 PM
Argue with Chris Trotter....a labourite since before Aunty Helen cut her political teeth. The most scathing criticism I have ever seen from a leftist commentator on a government of their own leaning.
Why should I care if it's not based on facts?

Though clark should go as its bad optics now to keep him there. That is assuming a transition can be done seamlessly, if it can't then he should stay.

We shouldn't chop and change people during an active "health" crisis unless they have done something seriously wrong which doesn't seem to be the case as the procedures were correct but not followed by an employee.

stoploss
25-06-2020, 06:27 PM
Why should I care if it's not based on facts?

Though clark should go as its bad optics now to keep him there. That is assuming a transition can be done seamlessly, if it can't then he should stay.

We shouldn't chop and change people during a "health" crisis unless they have done something seriously wrong which doesn't seem to be the case as the procedures were correct but not followed by a likely low level employee.
Nothing seriously wrong ? Just failed to obey his own lockdown directions .Sat it out in Dunedin whilst we were in the midst of our biggest health crisis in a generation . He let Bloomfield run the show , when he should have been in Wellington 24/7 saving the nation .
Now he puts the knife into the civil servant that did his job for him ...maybe if he was here planning how quarantine would work we wouldn’t be faced with the problems that have eventuated.
If you think he has done nothing seriously wrong maybe look at it another way what has he got right ?

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 06:33 PM
Nothing seriously wrong ? Just failed to obey his own lockdown directions .Sat it out in Dunedin whilst we were in the midst of our biggest health crisis in a generation . He let Bloomfield run the show , when he should have been in Wellington 24/7 saving the nation .

Thank goodness for that. Who would you rather trust, a DR or a politican? other countries went with the politican and it didn't work well.

jonu
25-06-2020, 06:49 PM
Thank goodness for that. Who would you rather trust, a DR or a politican? other countries went with the politican and it didn't work well.

Some wag has edited wikipedia for David Clark. Note the "under the bus" policy


Description
DescriptionDavid Scott Clark is a New Zealand Labour Party politician who is the Member of Parliament for Dunedin North. He is the Minister for Health. And an avid campaigner for throwing under the bus policy. Previously he has been Opposition Spokesperson for Small Business and Economic Development. Wikipedia

By the way Dr Clark studied medicine before changing studies. He is a doctor....evidently the wrong sort.

iceman
25-06-2020, 07:06 PM
Nothing seriously wrong ? Just failed to obey his own lockdown directions .Sat it out in Dunedin whilst we were in the midst of our biggest health crisis in a generation . He let Bloomfield run the show , when he should have been in Wellington 24/7 saving the nation .
Now he puts the knife into the civil servant that did his job for him ...maybe if he was here planning how quarantine would work we wouldn’t be faced with the problems that have eventuated.
If you think he has done nothing seriously wrong maybe look at it another way what has he got right ?

Nah don´t worry stoploss. Panda says it´s just "bad optics" keeping Clark there. I don´t think we have seen a more incompetent senior Minister in NZ for a very long time and it is beyond belief that the PM still keeps him there. The biggest health crisis in the Nation´s history and he is nowhere to be seen (thankfully) and if he does show up, he disgraces himself with his incompetence and gutlessness. So normally one would expect the assistant Healh Minister to step up. How many of you have seen that Minister during this crisis or even know who it is ? Well it is the same Minister who is also assistance Transport Minister. She has shown the lack of talent pool in the Greens as well. Totally useless.
The election which has been regarded as "in the bag" by the left and NZ media for the last few months, may be a lot more interesting than they are predicting. NZ is finally waking up to this incompetent PM and Government.

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 07:10 PM
Nah don´t worry stoploss. Panda says it´s just "bad optics" keeping Clark there. I don´t think we have seen a more incompetent senior Minister in NZ for a very long time and it is beyond belief that the PM still keeps him there. The biggest health crisis in the Nation´s history and he is nowhere to be seen (thankfully) and if he does show up, he disgraces himself with his incompetence and gutlessness. So normally one would expect the assistant Healh Minister to step up. How many of you have seen that Minister during this crisis or even know who it is ? Well it is the same Minister who is also assistance Transport Minister. She has shown the lack of talent pool in the Greens as well. Totally useless.
The election which has been regarded as "in the bag" by the left and NZ media for the last few months, may be a lot more interesting than they are predicting. NZ is finally waking up to this incompetent PM and Government.

Gerry Brownlee? Hekia Parata?

David Clark hasn't done "anything" is what some are saying. I say that's good. That's what you want when you have better qualified people available to the government. National's health person is not even a doctor and made up some claims about a homeless man. not ethical.

Balance
25-06-2020, 07:16 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300042555/national-makes-enormous-recovery-in-new-poll

9% swing away from Labour back to National, and 1% swing from NZF to Act.

Game back on.

stoploss
25-06-2020, 07:23 PM
Gerry Brownlee? Hekia Parata?

David Clark hasn't done "anything" is the criticism from some quarters. I say good. That's what you want when you have better qualified people available to the government. National's health person is not even a doctor and made up some claims about a homeless man.
LOL panda re the national health spokesman ...
News for you David Clark is not a medical Dr either
"PhD Student, University of Otago 2000 - 2003
Presbyterian Minister, Community of St Luke 1997 - 2000
University Exchange Student, Germany 1997
Student, University of Otago, BA, BTheol(Hons) 1991 - 1996"

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 07:24 PM
I know but the public thinks he is one and that's what matters :p

He is a dr but not in health.

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 07:28 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300042555/national-makes-enormous-recovery-in-new-poll

9% swing away from Labour back to National, and 1% swing from NZF to Act.

Game back on.

When will Amy Adams come up with the plan. you can't say you have a plan then not deliver the goods.

Balance
25-06-2020, 07:28 PM
1 person (yes, one) actually voted for non-essential worker David Clark 🐒 as preferred PM in TV1 polls released tonight. 🤣

jonu
25-06-2020, 07:32 PM
The Commissar is now between a rock and a hard place of her own making. The calls are coming from all sides that David Clark has to go. Cindy has already stated she won't sack him, and glibly told media she doesn't revisit her decisions. According to this, unless Dr Clark cocksup further, he is safe, and an albatross around Cindy's neck.

The second obvious part of her self made dilemma is....Who the hell would she replace him with?

I'm picking Aunty Helen is already on the phone telling her protege that David Clark has to go. One thing old Helen did quick was clean up an internal mess.

Trouble is...Cindy didn't go hard and go early!

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 07:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rBhwxRUcCQ

Hmm thats 18-32 like to dislike ratio...

moka
25-06-2020, 08:33 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300042555/national-makes-enormous-recovery-in-new-poll

9% swing away from Labour back to National, and 1% swing from NZF to Act.

Game back on.
Unfortunately with voting and polls often people pick the second worst of the two parties. They do not pick which is the best party, but say I don’t like Labour therefore I will vote National without considering whether National will be better. Too often people focus on the negative and treat it like a retaliation i.e. stuff you I’ll vote for someone else then.

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2020, 09:09 PM
Unfortunately with voting and polls often people pick the second worst of the two parties. They do not pick which is the best party, but say I don’t like Labour therefore I will vote National without considering whether National will be better. Too often people focus on the negative and treat it like a retaliation i.e. stuff you I’ll vote for someone else then.

Which is understandable but national.. really? still not close to a majority though.

You can't be on the team when you're trying to divide the team. They are in their own team.

Some praise for our healthcare workers is helpful too rather than calling their efforts a disaster.

dobby41
26-06-2020, 07:19 AM
In the not to distant past many here and around NZ took Ashley from hero to zero in about 10s.
Suddenly he represented all that was wrong with the system
Then along came Clark and Ashley is back to hero.
Fascinating study is peoples reactions.

Audrey Young has a bit of balance here (premium unfortunately for some)
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12343107
A few snips
"The infatuation with Bloomfield masked failings during the Covid crisis, particularly over the supply and use of personal protective equipment, testing criteria, and presentation of results."
"It was only then that it was revealed the day three and day 12 tests Bloomfield had promised had been occurring for people in managed isolation were not occurring.
Twice Cabinet was told they had been happening but they weren't.
Bloomfield apologised to the Government and took responsibility as public service ethics require of him."

" That is exactly what David Clark said yesterday: "The director general has accepted protocol wasn't being followed; he has accepted responsibility for that and has set about putting it right."

It is not an equal relationship. The Ashley Bloomfield defence society does not have a leg to stand on.

Nor, however, would the David Clark defence society, were it to exist.

Clark was negligent in not keeping greater watch on the officials. His failing was not just in believing his officials, it was not knowing what questions to ask."

iceman
26-06-2020, 08:30 AM
I agree with that dobby41. Bloomfield is neither a hero or zero. He is a public servant that appears to be working hard to do his job and what looks like a lot of additional work such as border control etc. which is not and never has been part of his job description.
I think the outrage yesterday was at the low blow from Clark in calling Bloomfield out as he did at a press conference, a Minister that has completely failed to do his own job, breaks his Ministry's own rules and takes no responsibility for any of it. Pot calling the kettle black.

jonu
26-06-2020, 08:41 AM
Gee Chris....tell us what you really think!

Chris trotter continues to go off at the Cynical One. Interesting Machiavellian sub plot alluded to.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/06/26/sack-him-jacinda-sack-him-now/

This is unprecedented from Chris Trotter in my memory.

Balance
26-06-2020, 09:00 AM
Gee Chris....tell us what you really think!

Chris trotter continues to go off at the Cynical One. Interesting Machiavellian sub plot alluded to.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/06/26/sack-him-jacinda-sack-him-now/

This is unprecedented from Chris Trotter in my memory.

Shhhh .... let the gutless & despicable one keep his job. Best weapon to be handed to the Opposition to hammer home the point that this government is a government of incompetents bereft of talent, ability, and most damning of all, a bunch of CYA lifelong politicians with zero business experience.

Oh sorry, I forgot - Clndy did work in the corner dairy?

Joshuatree
26-06-2020, 09:09 AM
If National had been in power during the pandemic (https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/06/26/if-national-had-been-in-power-during-the-pandemic/) True true true , so help me Dog.

dobby41
26-06-2020, 09:15 AM
Shhhh .... let the gutless & despicable one keep his job. Best weapon to be handed to the Opposition to hammer home the point that this government is a government of incompetents bereft of talent, ability, and most damning of all, a bunch of CYA lifelong politicians with zero business experience.

Oh sorry, I forgot - Clndy did work in the corner dairy?

You're finally getting it.
Wasn't it a fish and chip shop?

dobby41
26-06-2020, 09:30 AM
If National had been in power during the pandemic (https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/06/26/if-national-had-been-in-power-during-the-pandemic/) True true true , so help me Dog.

I read it on the Internet - it must be true.

Joshuatree
26-06-2020, 09:37 AM
Sure balances things out a little . What if?

jonu
26-06-2020, 09:44 AM
Sure balances things out a little . What if?

Jt's finally cracked. Can't stand the reality of it all. His betrothed, the resting place of his besotted heart, has trampled his same gentle heart underfoot in her callousness.

Read up on some good all fashioned Labour values with Chris Trotter JT. He'll make you realise she wasn't worth it and that there are plenty of other fish in the sea....Just not in Cindy's Cabinet, as she hasn't got anyone to replace Clark with anyway.

Joshuatree
26-06-2020, 09:59 AM
Chris trotter has got rabies.Pretty offensive too.no balanced journalism, just one persons opinion. highly unprofessional. he could be balance?

jonu
26-06-2020, 10:03 AM
Chris trotter has got rabies.Pretty offensive too.no balanced journalism, just one persons opinion. highly unprofessional. he could be balance?

Chris Trotter is a true leftie. He has made a career of it. He is also well respected on both sides of the fence.

Joshuatree
26-06-2020, 10:11 AM
A way more balanced opinion piece imo

Audrey Young: Bloomfield-mania is back - but he is no victim. He has clear failings (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12343107)

"both are decent people. Neither are the villains in the stark way social media defines the world.
They are both lucky the failings were discovered early and did not lead to a new outbreak of community transmission."

Balance
26-06-2020, 10:16 AM
Chris Trotter is a true leftie. He has made a career of it. He is also well respected on both sides of the fence.


Chris trotter has got rabies.Pretty offensive too.no balanced journalism, just one persons opinion. highly unprofessional. he could be balance?

See how quickly the feeble minded brainwashed cult following Labourites like JT turn on their own? Just because Chris has the audacity to question Comrade Cindy🐒.

jonu
26-06-2020, 10:26 AM
See how quickly the feeble minded brainwashed cult following Labourites like JT turn on their own? Just because Chris has the audacity to question Comrade Cindy��.

The left always eat themselves. It's modus operandi.

macduffy
26-06-2020, 10:26 AM
A way more balanced opinion piece imo

Audrey Young: Bloomfield-mania is back - but he is no victim. He has clear failings (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12343107)

"both are decent people. Neither are the villains in the stark way social media defines the world.
They are both lucky the failings were discovered early and did not lead to a new outbreak of community transmission."

The difference is that one is a professional public servant, taking criticism on the chin and acting in a totally professional manner. As for the other, make up your own mind but the words responsible and responsibility won't be necessary.

blackcap
26-06-2020, 10:30 AM
The left always eat themselves. It's modus operandi.

Yes the left do eat themselves. Happens often. JT could go and join the cult of Cindy by the way he is going. Total unquestioning adulation and adoration. He should start a Facebook group for him to join.. o wait!

Joshuatree
26-06-2020, 10:54 AM
taking it on the chin and get back up mate;)

Joshuatree
26-06-2020, 10:56 AM
Most of the true villains are some media and some trump like divisive kiwis who really dont care about their country.Haters hate.

Balance
26-06-2020, 11:01 AM
Most of the true villains are some media and some trump like divisive kiwis who really dont care about their country.Haters hate.

The feeble minded brainwashed broken pathetic souls worship at the cult of Comrade Cindy.

Here's the undeniable proof that those with brains and views are not welcomed at the altar of Comrade Cindy:


Chris trotter has got rabies.Pretty offensive too.no balanced journalism, just one persons opinion. highly unprofessional. he could be balance?

dobby41
26-06-2020, 11:03 AM
The feeble minded brainwashed broken pathetic souls worship at the cult of Comrade Cindy.

Here's the undeniable proof that those with brains and views are not welcomed at the altar of Comrade Cindy:

Sometimes you sound so Trumpish.
He does the same thing - uses lots of emotive words and name calling.
Why do you do that?

Zaphod
26-06-2020, 04:50 PM
Chris Trotter is a true leftie. He has made a career of it. He is also well respected on both sides of the fence.

Having read his columns for years, I completely agree, and would place him left of the current Labour party by a wide margin. He's never been so critical of Labour. I had to double check this wasn't a different Chris Trotter attempting to fool me.

fungus pudding
26-06-2020, 05:57 PM
Having read his columns for years, I completely agree, and would place him left of the current Labour party by a wide margin. He's never been so critical of Labour. I had to double check this wasn't a different Chris Trotter attempting to fool me.

He often seems to have mellowed from his extreme left views of 10- 15 years ago.

iceman
26-06-2020, 07:51 PM
Having read his columns for years, I completely agree, and would place him left of the current Labour party by a wide margin. He's never been so critical of Labour. I had to double check this wasn't a different Chris Trotter attempting to fool me.

Same here. Have read his pieces for many years and often like his perspective, even though I often don´t agree with him. But he has his finger on the Left´s pulse and they are pissed off right now. JT can say it is only one man´s opinion, but it isn´t. Just look at the comments on the article. Jacindamania is fading fast as people see what she really is like, surrounded by a team of incompetents.

Panda-NZ-
26-06-2020, 08:17 PM
It's a team that delivers real things as opposed to marketing and slogans. The polls don't reflect what you say and (..so far at least) its Nationals rural supporters coming back to their natural home. which is expected more or less.

I think the ambition of light rail is good but you need Lab to deliver this. I am constantly slowed down on my travel to work by Stephen joyce's roadworks that have not been completed more than 10 years on. which ends up being a hit to productivity for me and others.

Roadworks = Nats kiwibuild.

Joshuatree
26-06-2020, 08:43 PM
Same here. Have read his pieces for many years and often like his perspective, even though I often don´t agree with him. But he has his finger on the Left´s pulse and they are pissed off right now. JT can say it is only one man´s opinion, but it isn´t. Just look at the comments on the article. Jacindamania is fading fast as people see what she really is like, surrounded by a team of incompetents.

Dream ares free my friend dream on.Fantasies too thats all they are. National have had a dream week supported by some embarrassing hyaena media(tova is so good ) amping everything up,like someone went under a bus??lol. Some body english experts in the national party, some lunatics too, one shouting" Nazis" in parliament today as he got chucked out again after sneaking back in. Lots of drama from the perfectionists, 95% of it is spin.Now get up and carry on regardless. Nobodies perfect but we nearly were for quite some weeks and months ehh.;)

Panda-NZ-
26-06-2020, 09:36 PM
Dream ares free my friend dream on.Fantasies too thats all they are. National have had a dream week supported by some embarrassing hyaena media(tova is so good ) amping everything up,like someone went under a bus??lol. Some body english experts in the national party, some lunatics too, one shouting" Nazis" in parliament today as he got chucked out again after sneaking back in. Lots of drama from the perfectionists, 95% of it is spin.Now get up and carry on regardless. Nobodies perfect but we nearly were for quite some weeks and months ehh.;)

It started with some made up stuff from the 'past her prime' commentator Fran o'sullivan.

Simon's pleas for compassionate release with funerals were pretty much the only valid thing I think. Though what I don't understand is article after article on the 'scandal' of people who leave without tests AFTER their 14 days when the virus has disappeared. Some journalists need to learn how viruses and epidemiology works.

jonu
27-06-2020, 08:16 AM
It started with some made up stuff from the 'past her prime' commentator Fran o'sullivan.

Simon's pleas for compassionate release with funerals were pretty much the only valid thing I think. Though what I don't understand is article after article on the 'scandal' of people who leave without tests AFTER their 14 days when the virus has disappeared. Some journalists need to learn how viruses and epidemiology works.

Funny how journos are past their use by once they start exposing cracks. I do recall Fran being asked what she thought of Cindy's Foreign Policy pre election. Fran's reply..."She clearly has no clue."

The issue with people being released from managed isolation without being tested was largely due to the cockup of that managed isolation. People on day 10 mingling with new arrivals etc...all documented. If you don't understand this being a problem I can't help you.

jonu
27-06-2020, 08:19 AM
It's a team that delivers real things as opposed to marketing and slogans.



I think the ambition of light rail is good but you need Lab to deliver this.

Oh the irony.

If there are two lines that some up the blindness on display, those are the two!

artemis
27-06-2020, 09:59 AM
Oh the irony.

If there are two lines that some up the blindness on display, those are the two!

Labour did deliver free first year fees, and very quickly. Easy to deliver inputs. Outcomes not so much.

Joshuatree
27-06-2020, 10:24 AM
It started with some made up stuff from the 'past her prime' commentator Fran o'sullivan.

Simon's pleas for compassionate release with funerals were pretty much the only valid thing I think. Though what I don't understand is article after article on the 'scandal' of people who leave without tests AFTER their 14 days when the virus has disappeared. Some journalists need to learn how viruses and epidemiology works.

Yes a concerted biased attack .all the wonderful successes from the beginning to last week , its like they never existed. this has been an intense media and national attack bomb ala trump dumbing down tactics focuses entirely on negativity,misinformation, bias, divisive in extreme and malicious for our country.
Gordon Campbell says it well on Werewolf.



Gordon Campbell on the media collusion with National’s attack lines (http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/06/gordon-campbell-on-the-media-collusion-with-nationals-attack-lines/)

"I’m not suggesting that border lapses should not be reported. Some of the past mistakes – probably born of complacency about our early success – have been identified and rectified. Yet on the current evidence they have been corrected so far, without any serious consequence for anyone. Again, why has the media – presumably through naivete rather than complicity – been so willing to piggy back on the Opposition attack lines in lieu of doing its own reporting on and evaluation of our response to the pandemic? Sure, good news tends to be boring, but the readiness to blow some of the lapses that have occurred right out of proportion has been inexcusable, and is of advantage to only one side of the political debate."

fungus pudding
27-06-2020, 10:39 AM
Labour did deliver free first year fees, and very quickly. Easy to deliver inputs. Outcomes not so much.

And what an ill-thought-out policy that is.

Joshuatree
27-06-2020, 10:44 AM
If National had been in power during the pandemic (https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/06/26/if-national-had-been-in-power-during-the-pandemic/) True true true , so help me Dog.


A very scary thought, what if? A very colourful,simplistic but accurate "What if".Weve dodged covid tipped bullets there!:scared:


"If National were in charge during pandemic, they would’ve ignored it like the Housing crisis, they would’ve underfunded it like the Health crisis and they would’ve followed the science the way they followed it over the state house meth hysteria!
In short, we’d all be dead.
"National is the party of the property speculator, the banker and the farmer. They would have moved heaven and high hell to protect them from the pandemic by keeping our borders wide open. They would allow a mountain of dead to have occurred before doing anything that might hurt their rich mates.
Don’t tell me National would have listened to the ‘science’ – National don’t give two ****s about the ‘science’! Remember the State House meth hysteria?
Remember how National needlessly pissed $120million against the wall for state house decontamination that the science said wasn’t needed?"

TDB Recommends NewzEngine.com


Remember how National threw 1000 beneficiaries onto the streets in the middle of a housing crisis and banned them from any more state housing despite the science saying there was no health contamination issues or legal proof those tenants had actually even smoked the meth?"

moka
27-06-2020, 01:08 PM
Yes a concerted biased attack .all the wonderful successes from the beginning to last week , its like they never existed. this has been an intense media and national attack bomb ala trump dumbing down tactics focuses entirely on negativity,misinformation, bias, divisive in extreme and malicious for our country.
Gordon Campbell says it well on Werewolf.

Gordon Campbell on the media collusion with National’s attack lines (http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/06/gordon-campbell-on-the-media-collusion-with-nationals-attack-lines/)

"I’m not suggesting that border lapses should not be reported. Some of the past mistakes – probably born of complacency about our early success – have been identified and rectified. Yet on the current evidence they have been corrected so far, without any serious consequence for anyone. Again, why has the media – presumably through naivete rather than complicity – been so willing to piggy back on the Opposition attack lines in lieu of doing its own reporting on and evaluation of our response to the pandemic? Sure, good news tends to be boring, but the readiness to blow some of the lapses that have occurred right out of proportion has been inexcusable, and is of advantage to only one side of the political debate."
Excellent common sense article in my opinion by Gordon Campbell, although some may disagree.

It is not in the best interests of the team of five million either to blow the lapses out of proportion. There is already lot of unreasonable fear in the community which is not based on the actual risk of catching coronavirus. The fear and associated mental health issues will not help us in the recovery and to get the economy going again. Building and maintaining trust and confidence in the government response is so important. Some commentators in the media take a short sighted approach manipulating and escalating people’s emotions to sell the news. The media has not always served New Zealand well during the crisis.

Panda-NZ-
27-06-2020, 01:59 PM
Oh the irony.

If there are two lines that some up the blindness on display, those are the two!

Refer to the agreement between NZ first and Labour.. nearly everything in that has been delivered on time. :)

We have Germany's mmp election system not the UK's FPP election system.

macduffy
27-06-2020, 03:28 PM
Refer to the agreement between NZ first and labour.. nearly everything delivered.

Has the full agreement ever been made public? What, for example, did it say about CGT? Or light rail for Auckland?

artemis
27-06-2020, 06:05 PM
Has the full agreement ever been made public? What, for example, did it say about CGT? Or light rail for Auckland?

A long list in the published coalition agreement, and it would be interesting to see a comprehensive analysis of delivery against the list. Even a quick glance indicates plenty not delivered, and a lot of those that may have been achieved are not exactly real things.

iceman
27-06-2020, 07:35 PM
And what an ill-thought-out policy that is.

Which is why they have quietly changed how they measure the "success" of this policy. Originally measured by how many additional high school students went into tertiary. After 2 years of falling numbers, they now are going to stop this and report something like "the average amount paid per stundent in fees".. This will be successful since the first year will be free ! This Government is just unbelievable. None of the very few policies Winston has allowed them to implement, actually delivers any half decent outcomes.

Panda-NZ-
27-06-2020, 08:44 PM
Is having Kiwi kids take on less debt (todds new scary word) for the necessary skills that they need not worthy as an ambition? Does student debt matter or is it only our internationally low national debt and nothing else.

$1.2b into apprenticeships by this government compared to nothing under national. Skilled workers ready to go soon to build that brighter future that sir john couldn't deliver in three terms with a majority plus a couple of rubber stamp MP's. Easy mode in other words.

artemis
28-06-2020, 01:56 AM
..... $1.2b into apprenticeships by this government compared to nothing under national. Skilled workers ready to go soon to build that brighter future sir john couldn't deliver after three terms with a majority with a couple of rubber stamp MP's.. easy mode in other words.

Did you make that up?

BCITO - 2016 year. Highest ever level of apprentice sign ups and also apprenticeship completions.

BCITO - 2017. Even higher number of active apprenticeships, and more completing their training.

And these with no free fees. Numbers have been increasing at a similar rate but with free fees. That is only one provider but the key one in the construction industry. Data is readily available, no need to make it up.

Balance
28-06-2020, 08:34 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12343644
Paywalled

Excellent summation how gutless, disgusting and repugnant David Clark (& Comrade Cindy) are for not taking responsibility for the quarantine mess.

‘Real Leadership is about allowing the team to take credit for successes and stepping up to take the blame when things go wrong.’

Who would you prefer to lead you in a crisis in future - Bloomfield or Clark & Cindy🐒🐒?

Panda-NZ-
28-06-2020, 08:47 PM
Who would you prefer to lead you in a crisis in future - Bloomfield or Clark & Cindy?

False choice. I think all three have been delivering world leading results with their decisions & are taking continued actions to fix the shortfalls.

artemis
29-06-2020, 06:00 AM
False choice. I think all three have been delivering world leading results with their decisions & are taking continued actions to fix the shortfalls.

Any actual facts on apprenticeships?

fungus pudding
29-06-2020, 08:24 AM
Surely Labour will drop their agreement with The Greens after their unworkable, naive and insane wealth tax proposal. Or are they locked in for a specified term?

jonu
29-06-2020, 08:47 AM
Surely Labour will drop their agreement with The Greens after their unworkable, naive and insane wealth tax proposal. Or are they locked in for a specified term?

Come election day Labour will need the Greens in bed. The Greens tendency to formulate bat**** crazy policy never ceases to amaze.

dobby41
29-06-2020, 08:58 AM
The Greens tendency to formulate bat**** crazy policy never ceases to amaze.

Recent examples?

fungus pudding
29-06-2020, 09:07 AM
Recent examples?

Is that a serious question? Have a look at their tax proposal.

blackcap
29-06-2020, 09:08 AM
Is that a serious question? Have a look at their tax proposal.

Unfortunately FP, there live with us a species of people that think their tax proposal is the best thing since "progressive tax rates".

dobby41
29-06-2020, 09:12 AM
Is that a serious question? Have a look at their tax proposal.

Thanks - it was serious but I had viewed the posts out of order so missed that this was in relation to the wealth tax proposal.
Must read it for a bit of a laugh.

fungus pudding
29-06-2020, 11:43 AM
Unfortunately FP, there live with us a species of people that think their tax proposal is the best thing since "progressive tax rates".

Fortunately Labour have distanced themselves from the Kermits.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/121972730/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-distances-labour-from-green-party-tax-reforms

jonu
29-06-2020, 11:51 AM
Another example of those lovely cuddly "kind" lefties eating themselves.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12343800

Balance
29-06-2020, 01:24 PM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/insulting-jacinda-ardern-defends-nzs-border-response-covid-19-more-than-just-good-luck

Comrade Cindy still does not get it.

Stuck In her mind with the adoration of weeks past, she has yet to realise that majority of NZers are fed up to the back teeth with the gross mismanagement of the quarantine regime.

Panda-NZ-
29-06-2020, 01:55 PM
They are fed up with no community cases and being in level one..?

dobby41
29-06-2020, 02:56 PM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/insulting-jacinda-ardern-defends-nzs-border-response-covid-19-more-than-just-good-luck

Comrade Cindy still does not get it.

Stuck In her mind with the adoration of weeks past, she has yet to realise that majority of NZers are fed up to the back teeth with the gross mismanagement of the quarantine regime.

I think the majority of NZers are fed up with the media harping on about it.

greater fool
29-06-2020, 03:18 PM
.................................................. ................

Rep
29-06-2020, 03:21 PM
Unfortunately FP, there live with us a species of people that think their tax proposal is the best thing since "progressive tax rates".

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12343897

Yesterday the Greens unveiled its first major election policy, which would tax the wealthy more to fund a payment of at least $325 a week for anyone not in fulltime work.

A wealth tax of 1 per cent would apply to "net assets worth over $1 million" and 2 per cent for net assets over $2m. These would only apply to the value above those thresholds and would discount the value of, for example, mortgages held by landlords owning a suite of rental properties.

Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson said this morning that the policy was a priority but wouldn't say if it might be a bottom line in any post-election coalition negotiations.

She said older people or retirees who had assets but lacked cash could defer payments.

We understand that many older people may have a home, for example, worth more than $1m and it is paid off, they don't have a mortgage, but perhaps they're living on Super or perhaps they're moving to a retirement home and wish to put their home into a trust - you can defer payments," she told RNZ.

"The trust also is liable for a wealth tax, but again, it is shared among all beneficiaries and trustees, so again only if each individual has more than $1m net wealth worth then we are asking them to chip in at 1 per cent over and above that $1m.

This has to be the first tax proposal where the co-leader of the party proposing tax policy with a new tax then suggests how to avoid that new tax with some tax planning? Arguably, the folk where there is arguably more to derive from the wealth tax are going to be better able to participate in tax planning than someone who is trying to pay their house off in Auckland and has some Kiwisaver?

Balance
29-06-2020, 03:26 PM
I think the majority of NZers are fed up with the media harping on about it.

You wish.

Media simply reflect what public are thinking and discussing - don't shoot the messengers just because the media is not blowing smoke up Comrade Cindy's ego anymore.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12343692

Notice how Comrade Cindy skirted around why her Health Minister is such an inept and gutless individual?

She still does not get it which is FANTASTIC! The more she attempts to defend the indefensible, the worse it is going to get. :t_up:

fungus pudding
29-06-2020, 03:29 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12343897

Yesterday the Greens unveiled its first major election policy, which would tax the wealthy more to fund a payment of at least $325 a week for anyone not in fulltime work.

A wealth tax of 1 per cent would apply to "net assets worth over $1 million" and 2 per cent for net assets over $2m. These would only apply to the value above those thresholds and would discount the value of, for example, mortgages held by landlords owning a suite of rental properties.

Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson said this morning that the policy was a priority but wouldn't say if it might be a bottom line in any post-election coalition negotiations.

She said older people or retirees who had assets but lacked cash could defer payments.

We understand that many older people may have a home, for example, worth more than $1m and it is paid off, they don't have a mortgage, but perhaps they're living on Super or perhaps they're moving to a retirement home and wish to put their home into a trust - you can defer payments," she told RNZ.

"The trust also is liable for a wealth tax, but again, it is shared among all beneficiaries and trustees, so again only if each individual has more than $1m net wealth worth then we are asking them to chip in at 1 per cent over and above that $1m.

This has to be the first tax proposal where the co-leader of the party proposing tax policy with a new tax then suggests how to avoid that new tax with some tax planning? Arguably, the folk where there is arguably more to derive from the wealth tax are going to be better able to participate in tax planning than someone who is trying to pay their house off in Auckland and has some Kiwisaver?

That just might see the Green party buried. It's extremely harsh and will hit many of their own supporters.

Panda-NZ-
29-06-2020, 03:52 PM
How can you get a policy through when you can only work with one side.

This applies to Seymour too. Maybe if he plays his cards right he can be associate minister of statistics . Even if they have 20 seats. Dave will never support labour so is in no position to demand real policy. :)

Panda-NZ-
29-06-2020, 04:07 PM
IF the media is not biased how do you explain headlines like this:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/121977858/coronavirus-367-people-from-isolation-that-ministry-of-health-cant-contact

Who cares if they have been through their managed isolation. and stuff is pretty moderate/sensible compared to the nz herald and esp Newstalkzb

blackcap
29-06-2020, 04:12 PM
IF the media is not biased how do you explain headlines like this:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/121977858/coronavirus-367-people-from-isolation-that-ministry-of-health-cant-contact

Who cares if they have been through their managed isolation. and stuff is pretty moderate/sensible compared to the nz herald and esp Newstalkzb

What is biased about that headline? To me it reads like a fact.

jonu
29-06-2020, 04:15 PM
IF the media is not biased how do you explain headlines like this:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/121977858/coronavirus-367-people-from-isolation-that-ministry-of-health-cant-contact

Who cares if they have been through their managed isolation. and stuff is pretty moderate/sensible compared to the nz herald and esp Newstalkzb

What's wrong with that headline? These are people they are desperate to contact because of their earlier lax testing.

If you want to examine ridiculously partisan reporting....examine the Cindy lovefest post her appointment to lead the Labour Party and the subsequent 24 months. Cracks started to appear when the media realised Cindy's government was less transparent than previous administrations (despite claiming the high ground in this regard) and were taking longer over Official Information Requests and avoiding them if at all possible.

stoploss
29-06-2020, 04:17 PM
IF the media is not biased how do you explain headlines like this:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/121977858/coronavirus-367-people-from-isolation-that-ministry-of-health-cant-contact

Who cares if they have been through their managed isolation. and stuff is pretty moderate/sensible compared to the nz herald and esp Newstalkzb
Pretty shocking if they didn't take down enough details to be able to contact that many people . What chance did we have with a big breakout of their contact tracing working ....this shows it as a total shambles ...maybe the 367 were all "homeless' so gave false details ..... :)

jonu
29-06-2020, 04:24 PM
Is Panda-NZ really the only apologist Labour has?

JT, El Z, Westerly, where are you in Labour's time of need? Or have you woken up and smelt the coffee?

The media smell blood....when that happens they are a rabid pack of dogs....no matter who you are....Cindy look out. She knows this. Hence the Social Distancing from Dr Bloomfield. No more cosy media conferences alongside the Cynical One. No...it's off down the road to a room that is obviously not designed for media briefings. Anything to put distance between her and failure. I would bet she is already sounding out a future role at the UN as we speak.

Arthur
29-06-2020, 04:25 PM
Surely Labour will drop their agreement with The Greens after their unworkable, naive and insane wealth tax proposal. Or are they locked in for a specified term?

$1 million may only be a round of drinks to you and I Fungus Pudding, but to most Kiwis its a serious chunk of change. I'll gladly pay my share of the wealth tax if it is spent wisely. My main concern is the younger generation. Merit based social mobility used to be a strength in our economy, I know longer think that is the case.

jonu
29-06-2020, 04:32 PM
$1 million may only be a round of drinks to you and I Fungus Pudding, but to most Kiwis its a serious chunk of change. I'll gladly pay my share of the wealth tax if it is spent wisely. My main concern is the younger generation. Merit based social mobility used to be a strength in our economy, I know longer think that is the case.

Really Arthur? Tax is generally a concept that you pay it once on either something earned or a transaction. The Greens want to make it an annual event based on what you have. You will already have paid tax on income etc...but if your assets total more than their arbitrary amount they will sting you again...and again...and again. Paying tax on the same thing over and over.

It's one of the reasons Local Council Rates are called Rates. They are not meant to be a tax as only the Crown can set a tax.

Panda-NZ-
29-06-2020, 04:53 PM
Is Panda-NZ really the only apologist Labour has?

JT, El Z, Westerly, where are you in Labour's time of need? Or have you woken up and smelt the coffee?

The media smell blood....when that happens they are a rabid pack of dogs....no matter who you are....Cindy look out. She knows this. Hence the Social Distancing from Dr Bloomfield. No more cosy media conferences alongside the Cynical One. No...it's off down the road to a room that is obviously not designed for media briefings. Anything to put distance between her and failure. I would bet she is already sounding out a future role at the UN as we speak.

Listen to the expert Mr bloomfield and others which you seemed to fawn over a couple of days ago. The risk is minor and not a priority compared to other more important things atm. Though long term every gap should be fixed but it's about making good priorities.

Balance
29-06-2020, 05:11 PM
Pretty shocking if they didn't take down enough details to be able to contact that many people . What chance did we have with a big breakout of their contact tracing working ....this shows it as a total shambles ...maybe the 367 were all "homeless' so gave false details ..... :)

Shows yet again what an absolute shambles the quarantine regime was.

Thank heavens that Woodhouse highlighted via the two women what a disgraceful bunch of incompetent misfits this government is.

Otherwise, the mess would have continued and next thing we know, NZ is back in lockdown.

Balance
29-06-2020, 05:16 PM
Deleted - deleted

Panda-NZ-
29-06-2020, 05:21 PM
I'll take delivery over meaningless words any day of the week. Hency why Cindy is the only real choice this time ;)

Arthur
29-06-2020, 05:22 PM
Really Arthur? Tax is generally a concept that you pay it once on either something earned or a transaction. The Greens want to make it an annual event based on what you have. You will already have paid tax on income etc...but if your assets total more than their arbitrary amount they will sting you again...and again...and again. Paying tax on the same thing over and over.

It's one of the reasons Local Council Rates are called Rates. They are not meant to be a tax as only the Crown can set a tax.

If you have a million in term deposits you pay tax on the interest every year. If you have a million in a company you pay tax on the profits every year. Why wouldn't I pay tax on the annual derived value of my Gin Palace? It is inefficient not to tax wealth invested in "non productive" assets.

Balance
29-06-2020, 05:27 PM
If you have a million in term deposits you pay tax on the interest every year. If you have a million in a company you pay tax on the profits every year. Why wouldn't I pay tax on the annual derived value of my Gin Palace? It is inefficient not to tax wealth invested in "non productive" assets.

Our primary residence is not an conventional asset in the same category as funds invested in a company or term deposit - it is our home.

It is probably the most productive asset in any country - providing shelter and security.

Balance
29-06-2020, 05:29 PM
For the record - Panda-NZ is in my ignore list.

I do not suffer fools and idiots - he is both imo.

“Arguing with a fool is the fastest way of becoming one too.’

Panda-NZ-
29-06-2020, 05:32 PM
Assumed my gender, nice one. I am indeed a male though

might be part of the problem with some closed shop communities in NZ. :\

westerly
29-06-2020, 05:44 PM
Is Panda-NZ really the only apologist Labour has?

JT, El Z, Westerly, where are you in Labour's time of need? Or have you woken up and smelt the coffee?

The media smell blood....when that happens they are a rabid pack of dogs....no matter who you are....Cindy look out. She knows this. Hence the Social Distancing from Dr Bloomfield. No more cosy media conferences alongside the Cynical One. No...it's off down the road to a room that is obviously not designed for media briefings. Anything to put distance between her and failure. I would bet she is already sounding out a future role at the UN as we speak.

Gee, do you think I have time to sit on a computer half the day like Balance and reply to the biased rubbish the National pack dogs submit. There is more to life than that.

westerly :)

Balance
29-06-2020, 06:15 PM
Gee, do you think I have time to sit on a computer half the day like Balance and reply to the biased rubbish the National pack dogs submit. There is more to life than that.

westerly :)

Haha - ever heard of a mobile phone?

Poor westerly - no wonder you struggle with the modern world.

Balance
29-06-2020, 06:27 PM
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/jacinda-ardern-confronted-over-coronavirus-blunder-and-health-ministers-blameshifting/news-story/6d4c834b5f4687ede3ba977c61b657c1

Comrade Cindy attempting to lie her way through interviews :

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“What did you see in Ashley’s face?” Hosking followed up.

“Well, the same that I’ve seen across people who are working in health generally." Really, Cindy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“No one here is placing blame at any individual’s feet for something that was a systems failure, and that we are all working really well collectively together to resolve.” We all saw David Clark put the blame on Bloomfield, Cindy.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“In my view, it was certainly not the intention to leave that impression that some have taken from that interview.” It is exactly the intention from your gutless, despicable and lockdown violating David Clark, Cindy.

artemis
29-06-2020, 06:44 PM
What bothers me is that since the border processes were tightened up we have had new cases every day. Yet while border processes had holes there were no cases at all for weeks. Something wrong with this picture.

Baa_Baa
29-06-2020, 06:56 PM
What bothers me is that since the border processes were tightened up we have had new cases every day. Yet while border processes had holes there were no cases at all for weeks. Something wrong with this picture.

The new cases are being imported from other countries and it will continue, and probably accelerate as more Kiwi's who are entitled to return to NZ do so. IMO you needn't be concerned unless those imports refuse to be tested and are released into the community. Uh oh.

ynot
29-06-2020, 06:58 PM
What bothers me is that since the border processes were tightened up we have had new cases every day. Yet while border processes had holes there were no cases at all for weeks. Something wrong with this picture.

Daily border arrival numbers up.

fungus pudding
29-06-2020, 06:59 PM
$1 million may only be a round of drinks to you and I Fungus Pudding, but to most Kiwis its a serious chunk of change. I'll gladly pay my share of the wealth tax if it is spent wisely. My main concern is the younger generation. Merit based social mobility used to be a strength in our economy, I know longer think that is the case.

That 'you and I' should be 'you and me' in the first sentence. In the second sentence, its should be it's, and in the last sentence 'know' should be no. Sorry to be pedantic but to ease your burden from all that wealth, you could always spend a chunk on English lessons.

Arthur
29-06-2020, 07:52 PM
Quite correct Fungus Pudding, pretty sure you are not a grammar Nazi, just Alt Write.

jonu
29-06-2020, 10:06 PM
If you have a million in term deposits you pay tax on the interest every year. If you have a million in a company you pay tax on the profits every year. Why wouldn't I pay tax on the annual derived value of my Gin Palace? It is inefficient not to tax wealth invested in "non productive" assets.

I have no problem paying tax on income generated from an asset. There's no way I should be paying tax annually for just owning it, whether it be cash, a boat or my own house.

moka
29-06-2020, 10:44 PM
I have no problem paying tax on income generated from an asset. There's no way I should be paying tax annually for just owning it, whether it be cash, a boat or my own house.
It seems unfair to me that you pay tax on income from your labour, but do not pay tax on capital gains which in the case of increasing house prices just happens while you sit in the couch. Increasing house prices is an unseen (private) tax on workers’ income because they have to work many more hours to pay for a house. A private tax is one that is not collected by government but by capitalists. This makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. It is in a country’s financial interest to have a strong middle class because economies do much better when this is so. If there is a wide gap between rich and poor this has a negative effect on GDP. If house prices are to be affordable for first home buyers then there has to be some form of wealth/capital gains tax. People invest in houses because of the capital gains which are untaxed. Investing in productive activity is usually less profitable, which does not make economic sense.
From 1957 to the late 1980s the average New Zealand house price was between two-to-three times the average annual household income.
Prices peaked at around six and a half times the average household income in 2008.
Auckland, at nine times income, was severely unaffordable, and up from 5.9 in 2004.
The country as a whole also ranks in this range, with a ratio of 6.5.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110049950/auckland-ranked-among-worlds-least-affordable-cities-in-housing-report
Infometrics economist Brad Olsen said house price growth had significantly outpaced incomes in recent years. Over 20 years, incomes were up 113 per cent but house prices 248 per cent, he said.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/117903021/house-prices-shoot-ahead-again-as-majority-of-kiwis-say-ownership-unachievable

blackcap
30-06-2020, 06:02 AM
It seems unfair to me that you pay tax on income from your labour, but do not pay tax on capital gains which in the case of increasing house prices just happens while you sit in the couch. Increasing house prices is an unseen (private) tax on workers’ income because they have to work many more hours to pay for a house. A private tax is one that is not collected by government but by capitalists. This makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. It is in a country’s financial interest to have a strong middle class because economies do much better when this is so. If there is a wide gap between rich and poor this has a negative effect on GDP. If house prices are to be affordable for first home buyers then there has to be some form of wealth/capital gains tax. People invest in houses because of the capital gains which are untaxed. Investing in productive activity is usually less profitable, which does not make economic sense.
From 1957 to the late 1980s the average New Zealand house price was between two-to-three times the average annual household income.
Prices peaked at around six and a half times the average household income in 2008.
Auckland, at nine times income, was severely unaffordable, and up from 5.9 in 2004.
The country as a whole also ranks in this range, with a ratio of 6.5.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110049950/auckland-ranked-among-worlds-least-affordable-cities-in-housing-report
Infometrics economist Brad Olsen said house price growth had significantly outpaced incomes in recent years. Over 20 years, incomes were up 113 per cent but house prices 248 per cent, he said.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/117903021/house-prices-shoot-ahead-again-as-majority-of-kiwis-say-ownership-unachievable

You are being disingenuous. It is not capital gains Jonu is talking about. It is the green's proposed wealth tax. Ie you have a boat a house a batch and a couple of cars with some art thrown in worth $2m. Most of these assets are not income generating. Regardless you get taxed on an extra $10,000 (1% on the extra $1m over the $1m). Repeat ad infinitum.

dobby41
30-06-2020, 07:18 AM
You are being disingenuous. It is not capital gains Jonu is talking about. It is the green's proposed wealth tax. Ie you have a boat a house a batch and a couple of cars with some art thrown in worth $2m. Most of these assets are not income generating. Regardless you get taxed on an extra $10,000 (1% on the extra $1m over the $1m). Repeat ad infinitum.

It's really good that this sort of thing is being debated.

dobby41
30-06-2020, 07:21 AM
You wish.

Media simply reflect what public are thinking and discussing - don't shoot the messengers just because the media is not blowing smoke up Comrade Cindy's ego anymore.

Media like to wind things up - it generates clicks and views (read money).
They don't reflect what people are thinking and talking about.
People complain of media bias - if your statement was true then media bias just reflects the publics bias.

fungus pudding
30-06-2020, 07:57 AM
Quite correct Fungus Pudding, pretty sure you are not a grammar Nazi, just Alt Write.

Excellent. :t_up: Ten out of ten for that. :t_up::t_up:

fungus pudding
30-06-2020, 08:07 AM
You are being disingenuous. It is not capital gains Jonu is talking about. It is the green's proposed wealth tax. Ie you have a boat a house a batch and a couple of cars with some art thrown in worth $2m. Most of these assets are not income generating. Regardless you get taxed on an extra $10,000 (1% on the extra $1m over the $1m). Repeat ad infinitum.

Worse than that - on the third and subsequent millions the tax would be $20,000 per million - every year. It's ridiculous and unworkable. Capital gains, if well designed, is hard to argue with. Unfortunately the minute taxing the principal residence is included (essential in a fair and sensible CGT) it gets screamed down.

Balance
30-06-2020, 09:41 AM
Worse than that - on the third and subsequent millions the tax would be $20,000 per million - every year. It's ridiculous and unworkable. Capital gains, if well designed, is hard to argue with. Unfortunately the minute taxing the principal residence is included (essential in a fair and sensible CGT) it gets screamed down.

Greens simply playing the odds to garner more leftist votes, mindful that they are and have been bleeding support to Labour.

artemis
30-06-2020, 11:35 AM
Worse than that - on the third and subsequent millions the tax would be $20,000 per million - every year. It's ridiculous and unworkable. Capital gains, if well designed, is hard to argue with. Unfortunately the minute taxing the principal residence is included (essential in a fair and sensible CGT) it gets screamed down.

Yes it does get screamed down and is generally seen as electoral suicide.

But when has anyone seen any actual rationale for not including the main home? Apart from TOP in 2017.

fungus pudding
30-06-2020, 01:18 PM
Yes it does get screamed down and is generally seen as electoral suicide.

But when has anyone seen any actual rationale for not including the main home? Apart from TOP in 2017.

There isn't any other than the political suicide factor. Hypocrisy at work - 'it's a fair tax as long as it's not me who pays it'.

jonu
30-06-2020, 04:27 PM
No tax increases Cindy's last (for now) installment of tax increases on fuel comes into effect tomorrow. This is alongside the extra tax that lucky Aucklanders get to pay for things like Light Rail...oh wait.

The good news is...Cindy has ruled out anymore of the tax hikes that she had already ruled out before this one.

Hmmm...anyone noticing a pattern here?

jonu
01-07-2020, 06:46 AM
Is there no end to the cynical propaganda from the PM? Now that Ashley has been packed off down the road she is back to her daily briefings. Oh, but she's not electioneering....oh no siree!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300046061/national-questions-pms-daily-briefings-labour-hits-back-at-ads-as-parties-pivot-to-campaign-mode

trouble is...Cindy doesn't comprehend the concept of Overexposure. The fairy dust is wearing thin amongst those that escaped unbesotted. Including the media. I'm picking it'll backfire

Balance
01-07-2020, 06:50 AM
Is there no end to the cynical propaganda from the PM? Now that Ashley has been packed off down the road she is back to her daily briefings. Oh, but she's not electioneering....oh no siree!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300046061/national-questions-pms-daily-briefings-labour-hits-back-at-ads-as-parties-pivot-to-campaign-mode

trouble is...Cindy doesn't comprehend the concept of Overexposure. The fairy dust is wearing thin amongst those that escaped unbesotted. Including the media. I'm picking it'll backfire

We all know she will only appear when there’s good news (like zero case yesterday) and when she is going to spend more of taxpayers’ monies to breed more welfare beneficiaries & Labour voters.

Balance
01-07-2020, 07:02 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344399

And guess who is the Minister in charge of America Cup’s spending?

You got it - none other than Mr Incompetent, Phil Twyford, Comrade 🐒 Cindy’s #1 choice for promotions & cock-ups. 🤣

dobby41
01-07-2020, 07:35 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344399

And guess who is the Minister in charge of America Cup’s spending?

You got it - none other than Mr Incompetent, Phil Twyford, Comrade �� Cindy’s #1 choice for promotions & cock-ups. ��

You're suggesting that this is Labours fault?
Your hatred of Labour knows no bounds.

Balance
01-07-2020, 07:52 AM
You're suggesting that this is Labours fault?
Your hatred of Labour knows no bounds.

Coincidence you think that everything he touches turns to crap?

Kiwibuild, light rail and now if NZ is not careful, America’s Cup. Hell of a track record but Comrade Cindy 🐒 must love screw ups as he gets promoted for them!

dobby41
01-07-2020, 08:19 AM
Coincidence you think that everything he touches turns to crap?

Kiwibuild, light rail and now if NZ is not careful, America’s Cup. Hell of a track record but Comrade Cindy 🐒 must love screw ups as he gets promoted for them!

As yet we don't know what is actually happening but I really don't see how Labour caused it.
You are beyond the pale - get a grip man.

Balance
01-07-2020, 08:21 AM
As yet we don't know what is actually happening but I really don't see how Labour caused it.
You are beyond the pale - get a grip man.

And of course you would have us believe that Kiwibuild is not a screw up by Labour?

Waiuta
01-07-2020, 08:22 AM
Gareth Morgan and Susan Guthrie's book The Big Kahuna details a very workable alternative tax system to include the Family home and other business assets. I guess any attempt to tax any traditional asset will always be viewed as political suicide. They are the only ones who propose something different to our patched up exploited current system.

dobby41
01-07-2020, 08:39 AM
And of course you would have us believe that Kiwibuild is not a screw up by Labour?

Of course you'd like to thing that is a Labour screwup.
Please explain how they did it.

Balance
01-07-2020, 08:53 AM
Of course you'd like to thing that is a Labour screwup.
Please explain how they did it.

And therein lies the answer to why Comrade Cindy loves screw-ups and why the master of cock-ups Phil Twyford gets promoted.

Kiwibuild
Transmission Gully
Light Rail

black knat
01-07-2020, 09:20 AM
Greens simply playing the odds to garner more leftist votes, mindful that they are and have been bleeding support to Labour.

I've worked out that if the greens policy came into effect I would be paying the equivalent of 75% tax on my on my combined work work and investment income. Would have to sell up and move to Aust.

Balance
01-07-2020, 09:31 AM
I've worked out that if the greens policy came into effect I would be paying the equivalent of 75% tax on my on my combined work work and investment income. Would have to sell up and move to Aust.

Not a chance as Labour has already called unrealistic.

But I guess if Greens hold the balance of power and ruthlessly exercise it, they may yet get their wish!

dobby41
01-07-2020, 09:40 AM
And therein lies the answer to why Comrade Cindy loves screw-ups and why the master of cock-ups Phil Twyford gets promoted.


No answer then - thought so.
Just ranting then.

jonu
01-07-2020, 09:44 AM
No answer then - thought so.
Just ranting then.

C'mon dobs...give me a defence for the promotion of Phil Twyford. I put that challenge out there weeks ago, and not one coherent response yet. Do you accept he is out of his depth as a Minister? If not, show me the reasoning.

Balance
01-07-2020, 09:55 AM
No answer then - thought so.
Just ranting then.

There is none with eyes but will not see, ears but will not hear and mouth which speaks untruths & excuses only - that's you, dobby41.

dobby41
01-07-2020, 09:55 AM
C'mon dobs...give me a defence for the promotion of Phil Twyford. I put that challenge out there weeks ago, and not one coherent response yet. Do you accept he is out of his depth as a Minister? If not, show me the reasoning.

Promotion of Tyford isn't what this bit of thread is about - it's about the assertion that Labour is responsible for the Americas Cup 'issue' (whatever that issue really is).
I just don't get how Labour or Tyford are responsible!
The appropriate authorities are investigating.

dobby41
01-07-2020, 09:57 AM
There is none with eyes but will not see, ears but will not hear and mouth which speaks untruths only - that's you, dobby41.

You are still full of vacuous statements - no substance.
I haven't spoken an untruth in this - just explain how Labour caused this, backup your bull!

jonu
01-07-2020, 10:15 AM
Promotion of Tyford isn't what this bit of thread is about - it's about the assertion that Labour is responsible for the Americas Cup 'issue' (whatever that issue really is).
I just don't get how Labour or Tyford are responsible!
The appropriate authorities are investigating.

Well I'm bringing "this bit of thread" back to WHY IS TWYFORD EVEN A MINISTER?

WHY WAS HE PROMOTED?

fungus pudding
01-07-2020, 10:57 AM
Well I'm bringing "this bit of thread" back to WHY IS TWYFORD EVEN A MINISTER?

WHY WAS HE PROMOTED?

If you want to reach the top of the Labour ladder, just stay on the rung you're allocated, and wait for the ones above you to fall off.

Balance
01-07-2020, 11:36 AM
If you want to reach the top of the Labour ladder, just stay on the rung you're allocated, and wait for the ones above you to fall off.

Now that's a good one!

Sgt Pepper
01-07-2020, 11:38 AM
I wonder if the new Taieri seat in Dunedin may be at risk for Labour and potentially big news on election night.
Its not just about boundaries extending to rural districts but also the Labour candidate not really making an impact. Regardless of ones party affiliation I have never liked having out of town candidates being parachuted into safe seats. I know of one person who met her at a street corner meeting and was less than impressed. I could be wrong but I have this feeling of being taken for granted which is not good enough.
Just my, and probably uninformed ,opinion

dobby41
01-07-2020, 11:39 AM
Well I'm bringing "this bit of thread" back to WHY IS TWYFORD EVEN A MINISTER?

WHY WAS HE PROMOTED?

Why ask me - I haven't commented about Twyford.
Find someone else to argue with if you want that.

dobby41
01-07-2020, 11:40 AM
If you want to reach the top of the Labour ladder, just stay on the rung you're allocated, and wait for the ones above you to fall off.

Love it but no 'like' button.

Joshuatree
01-07-2020, 11:43 AM
You're suggesting that this is Labours fault?
Your hatred of Labour knows no bounds.

Im convinced hes a paid national attack dog. No morals, no ethics, no compassion, devoid of empathy,no care except for the smell of money and doing his masters dirty work, a mini me trump.

jonu
01-07-2020, 11:55 AM
Im convinced hes a paid national attack dog. No morals, no ethics, no compassion, devoid of empathy,no care except for the smell of money and doing his masters dirty work, a mini me trump.

MY my JT. Cindy's cynicism is cutting deep isn't it? She's cut you to the bone with those sparkling gnashers. Chewed you up and spat you to the spittoon.

You have my sympathy...having your heart broken by one who has cruelly used you for her own purposes must be devastating. Treat yourself to a hot bath with smelling salts, old chap. Clear your head and then rinse her down the drain. You'll feel ever so much better for it!

Joshuatree
01-07-2020, 11:56 AM
What? Balance and jonu the same person!!??

moka
01-07-2020, 12:40 PM
Is there no end to the cynical propaganda from the PM? Now that Ashley has been packed off down the road she is back to her daily briefings. Oh, but she's not electioneering....oh no siree!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300046061/national-questions-pms-daily-briefings-labour-hits-back-at-ads-as-parties-pivot-to-campaign-mode

trouble is...Cindy doesn't comprehend the concept of Overexposure. The fairy dust is wearing thin amongst those that escaped unbesotted. Including the media. I'm picking it'll backfire
Jacinda’s media briefings are not over-exposure as far as I’m concerned. She has something useful to say and she communicates very well. There is lots happening these days and I welcome her updating us on what is happening. I am definitely an admirer of her leadership ability.
I think that everyone who calls her cynical is projecting their own unwanted cynicism onto her. They are denying their own distrust of others motives and attributing it to her. It is a shame that someone who supports kindness and transparency is seen as cynical.
You are entitled to a different opinion but it would be better if you could be a bit more objective in your comments, rather than the repetitive name calling.

jonu
01-07-2020, 01:09 PM
Jacinda’s media briefings are not over-exposure as far as I’m concerned. She has something useful to say and she communicates very well. There is lots happening these days and I welcome her updating us on what is happening. I am definitely an admirer of her leadership ability.
I think that everyone who calls her cynical is projecting their own unwanted cynicism onto her. They are denying their own distrust of others motives and attributing it to her. It is a shame that someone who supports kindness and transparency is seen as cynical.
You are entitled to a different opinion but it would be better if you could be a bit more objective in your comments, rather than the repetitive name calling.

You don't think she is cynical?

When is the last time you saw her alongside Dr Bloomfield after previously being joined at the hip?

What about the party political broadcast we get anytime she makes an announcement?

How about the media complaining that this administration is less transparent than the Nats....despite claiming the high ground in this regard!

How about her throwing clinicians under the bus regarding testing in the early days of Level 1, when the clinicians had been following the instructions from on high?

How about the Kiwibuild "RESET"?

How about the quiet changes to the standards of measure around free tertiary study?

How about the "last" instalment of fuel tax in effect today ....the tax increase that isn't a tax increase because the PM promised us no tax increase?


I invite others to add to the list so that moka can see the light!

moka
01-07-2020, 01:59 PM
You don't think she is cynical?

When is the last time you saw her alongside Dr Bloomfield after previously being joined at the hip?

What about the party political broadcast we get anytime she makes an announcement?

How about the media complaining that this administration is less transparent than the Nats....despite claiming the high ground in this regard!

How about her throwing clinicians under the bus regarding testing in the early days of Level 1, when the clinicians had been following the instructions from on high?

How about the Kiwibuild "RESET"?

How about the quiet changes to the standards of measure around free tertiary study?

How about the "last" instalment of fuel tax in effect today ....the tax increase that isn't a tax increase because the PM promised us no tax increase?


I invite others to add to the list so that moka can see the light!
I don't think she is cynical. Maybe we have a different understanding of cynical. A cynical person is someone who believes that only selfishness and self-interest motivates human actions. I think that it is you who is cynical about her motivation or intentions when doing these things. That you think she is doing these things out self-interest. I can’t see the cynicism in the list of things but perhaps if you chose one or more from the list and expanded on how she is being cynical I may be able to understand your perspective. I don't need more examples, I need more detail on one or more about how her actions are cynical. I can’t see the light but we don’t know what we don’t know.

jonu
01-07-2020, 02:29 PM
For moka's benefit



You don't think she is cynical?

When is the last time you saw her alongside Dr Bloomfield after previously being joined at the hip?

Since Dr Bloomfield took the heat for the Quarantine debacle the PM has been Socially Distant. She no longer wishes to be associated with him.

What about the party political broadcast we get anytime she makes an announcement?

Using the front of "Briefings" to expound the party line, sow fear, and generally hog the limelight. Remember her saying she was finished with them about a month ago?

How about the media complaining that this administration is less transparent than the Nats....despite claiming the high ground in this regard!

The PM claims the moral high ground while at the very same time doing the opposite...perhaps the most blatant example of her cynicism.


How about her throwing clinicians under the bus regarding testing in the early days of Level 4, when the clinicians had been following the instructions from on high?

Throwing Clinicians under the bus to save her own skin....despicably cynical


How about the Kiwibuild "RESET"?

TTrying to pass off a failure as merely a Review. Transparent? I'd say cynical.

How about the quiet changes to the standards of measure around free tertiary study?

Strategic Cynicism at its finest.



How about the "last" instalment of fuel tax in effect today ....the tax increase that isn't a tax increase because the PM promised us no tax increase?

Blatant disregard for the truth when dealing with the electorate


I invite others to add to the list so that moka can see the light!

Clear to you now moka?

moka
01-07-2020, 07:22 PM
For moka's benefit




Clear to you now moka?

No still not clear yet but I'm working on it. Are there other polticians you would describe as cynical? Or is it just Jacinda?

iceman
01-07-2020, 08:03 PM
Gareth Morgan and Susan Guthrie's book The Big Kahuna details a very workable alternative tax system to include the Family home and other business assets. I guess any attempt to tax any traditional asset will always be viewed as political suicide. They are the only ones who propose something different to our patched up exploited current system.

Only one small problem with it though. Voters rejected it !

Panda-NZ-
01-07-2020, 08:37 PM
Jacinda’s media briefings are not over-exposure as far as I’m concerned. She has something useful to say and she communicates very well. There is lots happening these days and I welcome her updating us on what is happening. I am definitely an admirer of her leadership ability.
I think that everyone who calls her cynical is projecting their own unwanted cynicism onto her. They are denying their own distrust of others motives and attributing it to her. It is a shame that someone who supports kindness and transparency is seen as cynical.
You are entitled to a different opinion but it would be better if you could be a bit more objective in your comments, rather than the repetitive name calling.

Maybe jonu would prefer something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WT59lu4tCU

No equivilent of Mr.Bloomfield either.

black knat
01-07-2020, 08:52 PM
https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/105837/top-leader-geoff-simmons-rips-greens-wealth-tax-policy-arguing-it-would-be-disastrous

Very good article on the Greens nutcase tax thought bubble.

Joshuatree
01-07-2020, 09:18 PM
I just wonder about Geoffs mudslinging here.He sounds downright stingy like the more you have the more you want and the less you want to share, for some addicts. I really like what the greens are doing here.Most of the wealth is held by what a very small % and i for one would be happy to do my duty for less fortunate kiwis here and be happy to contribute more people a better quality of life rather then simply subsist.They are on a good path imo.

Panda-NZ-
01-07-2020, 09:27 PM
Greens are competing for the TOP vote I think. In the last election without them Lab/Green combo beats National.

black knat
01-07-2020, 09:43 PM
I just wonder about Geoffs mudslinging here.He sounds downright stingy like the more you have the more you want and the less you want to share, for some addicts. I really like what the greens are doing here.Most of the wealth is held by what a very small % and i for one would be happy to do my duty for less fortunate kiwis here and be happy to contribute more people a better quality of life rather then simply subsist.They are on a good path imo.

Which particular part of the Greens tax policy do you like? The part where many retirees pay way more than 100% of their income in tax? Tell us what Goeff has wrong...

iceman
02-07-2020, 06:32 AM
I just wonder about Geoffs mudslinging here.He sounds downright stingy like the more you have the more you want and the less you want to share, for some addicts. I really like what the greens are doing here.Most of the wealth is held by what a very small % and i for one would be happy to do my duty for less fortunate kiwis here and be happy to contribute more people a better quality of life rather then simply subsist.They are on a good path imo.

There is nothing stopping you from doing this at the moment without The Greens or Labour deciding who you support and how. Many of us do.

blackcap
02-07-2020, 06:42 AM
There is nothing stopping you from doing this at the moments without The Greens or Labour deciding who you support and how. Many of us do.

Well said Iceman. I too support those that are less fortunate than myself but do so without any interference from the government to mismanage the time and money but rather give these to the source directly. Far more effective and so much better for building community.

Balance
02-07-2020, 07:50 AM
There is nothing stopping you from doing this at the moments without The Greens or Labour deciding who you support and how. Many of us do.

JT is all talk (like Comrade Cindy) and no delivery.

Balance
02-07-2020, 07:54 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344754

The shambolic state of the quarantine regime continues - unable to track & trace & contact 367 persons for testing after they left quarantine.

We are supposed to trust this government of incompetents who forced 5m NZers to lockdown hard but cannot manage a simple quarantine regime to guide NZ through to the other side of normality in a balanced manner?

dobby41
02-07-2020, 08:36 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344754

The shambolic state of the quarantine regime continues - unable to track & trace & contact 367 persons for testing after they left quarantine.

We are supposed to trust this government of incompetents who forced 5m NZers to lockdown hard but cannot manage a simple quarantine regime to guide NZ through to the other side of normality in a balanced manner?

Testing those people is needed just 'tick the box'.
After all, they had the 14 days isolation and it is many days since with no community transmission.
Some people seem to forget that on 8th June you could leave without a test and that was OK but from 9th some think that the test is critical.
The extra testing was a 'belts and braces' approach - 14 days isolation being the belt and testing being the braces. The pants haven't fallen down withot the braces!

I suppose we should have used the Vic model and had infections amongst staff in the isolation hotels - or even supplied sex services from the guards.

The border is secure after the cock-up and has been for a couple of weeks (despite politicians still refering to the shambles in the last week).
Get a grip man.

jonu
02-07-2020, 09:02 AM
Testing those people is needed just 'tick the box'.
After all, they had the 14 days isolation and it is many days since with no community transmission.
Some people seem to forget that on 8th June you could leave without a test and that was OK but from 9th some think that the test is critical.
The extra testing was a 'belts and braces' approach - 14 days isolation being the belt and testing being the braces. The pants haven't fallen down withot the braces!

I suppose we should have used the Vic model and had infections amongst staff in the isolation hotels - or even supplied sex services from the guards.

The border is secure after the cock-up and has been for a couple of weeks (despite politicians still refering to the shambles in the last week).
Get a grip man.

The test is just a box ticking exercise? Do you work in Quarantine by chance? I ask because that is the attitude that caused the cockup. Tens of billions of cost to the country could have been wasted because of such lax attitudes. That's why people are pissed off...and won't forget anytime soon.

As for box ticking...what about those who have tested positive quite late in their isolation? There were reports of people mixing with people at much earlier stages of their isolation....making their isolation redundant. Back to Day 1 they should have gone. Even mixing with others at the same stage...again...isolation period made redundant. We can only hope that is not still happening. Just don't put dobs in charge!

iceman
02-07-2020, 09:04 AM
Testing those people is needed just 'tick the box'.
After all, they had the 14 days isolation and it is many days since with no community transmission.
Some people seem to forget that on 8th June you could leave without a test and that was OK but from 9th some think that the test is critical.
The extra testing was a 'belts and braces' approach - 14 days isolation being the belt and testing being the braces. The pants haven't fallen down withot the braces!

I suppose we should have used the Vic model and had infections amongst staff in the isolation hotels - or even supplied sex services from the guards.

The border is secure after the cock-up and has been for a couple of weeks (despite politicians still refering to the shambles in the last week).
Get a grip man.

If things go to plan, I will be going through this process at the end of July. I sort of look forward to seeing how it is all working and promise to report on this esteemed thread :-)

stoploss
02-07-2020, 09:05 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344754

The shambolic state of the quarantine regime continues - unable to track & trace & contact 367 persons for testing after they left quarantine.

We are supposed to trust this government of incompetents who forced 5m NZers to lockdown hard but cannot manage a simple quarantine regime to guide NZ through to the other side of normality in a balanced manner?
Have to assume if they have no address or contact # that instead of one homeless person in quarantine . we in fact had 367 !!!!
This is exactly the thing Minister Clark should have been working on while we were in lockdown , correct procedures for this . Instead he enjoyed family time at the beach and out on his mountain bike, left ashley to work 24/7 . Our biggest health crisis in a generation he should have been in the beehive 24/7 sorting this.

iceman
02-07-2020, 09:15 AM
Have to assume if they have no address or contact # that instead of one homeless person in quarantine . we in fact had 367 !!!!
This is exactly the thing Minister Parker should have been working on while we were in lockdown , correct procedures for this . Instead he enjoyed family time at the beach and out on his mountain bike, left ashley to work 24/7 . Our biggest health crisis in a generation he should have been in the beehive 24/7 sorting this.

I think you mean Minister Clark. But yes it is absolutely unbelivable that this could happen and they have that large numbers of people in the community somewhere without knowing where

stoploss
02-07-2020, 09:25 AM
I think you mean Minister Clark. But yes it is absolutely unbelivable that this could happen and they have that large numbers of people in the community somewhere without knowing where
Thanks Ice, Yep , have changed original post my bad.

dobby41
02-07-2020, 09:32 AM
The test is just a box ticking exercise? Do you work in Quarantine by chance? I ask because that is the attitude that caused the cockup. Tens of billions of cost to the country could have been wasted because of such lax attitudes. That's why people are pissed off...and won't forget anytime soon.

As for box ticking...what about those who have tested positive quite late in their isolation? There were reports of people mixing with people at much earlier stages of their isolation....making their isolation redundant. Back to Day 1 they should have gone. Even mixing with others at the same stage...again...isolation period made redundant. We can only hope that is not still happening. Just don't put dobs in charge!

You don't seem to be able to keep things in context.
Those 367 people spent 14 days in isolation without symptoms and have now been out in the community without community spread. For them the test is a 'box ticking exercise'.
This is different to those being now tested in isolation which is part of the new protocol - not just a 'box ticking exercise' but part of the belt and braces approach.
What is the difference between a person who left without a test on the 8th and one who left without a test on the 9th?

dobby41
02-07-2020, 09:33 AM
Have to assume if they have no address or contact # that instead of one homeless person in quarantine . we in fact had 367 !!!!
This is exactly the thing Minister Clark should have been working on while we were in lockdown , correct procedures for this . Instead he enjoyed family time at the beach and out on his mountain bike, left ashley to work 24/7 . Our biggest health crisis in a generation he should have been in the beehive 24/7 sorting this.

Assuming is always a dangerous game.
Maybe they gave false contact details.

Balance
02-07-2020, 09:41 AM
Assuming is always a dangerous game.
Maybe they gave false contact details.

Goodness gracious me!

Passports, credit cards & drivers licences were available and you are telling us that our tracing & tracking system did not and now cannot use those as reference documents.

Lax is too kind a word then to use on the quarantine regime!

jonu
02-07-2020, 09:43 AM
You don't seem to be able to keep things in context.
Those 367 people spent 14 days in isolation without symptoms and have now been out in the community without community spread. For them the test is a 'box ticking exercise'.
This is different to those being now tested in isolation which is part of the new protocol - not just a 'box ticking exercise' but part of the belt and braces approach.
What is the difference between a person who left without a test on the 8th and one who left without a test on the 9th?

That IS the context. No one should have been leaving without a test at anytime.

dobby41
02-07-2020, 09:56 AM
Goodness gracious me!

Passports, credit cards & drivers licences were available and you are telling us that our tracing & tracking system did not and now cannot use those as reference documents.

Lax is too kind a word then to use on the quarantine regime!

You'd wonder but maybe the 'tracing services' that is talked about will use those documents.
Of course a passports doesn't give you any contact, nor do drivers licenses if they are overseas or old (mine doesn't have an up-to-date address).
I won't assume what is happening here.

dobby41
02-07-2020, 09:57 AM
That IS the context. No one should have been leaving without a test at anytime.

Wasn't the protocol on 8th June.
I stand by my statements.

Balance
02-07-2020, 10:04 AM
Wasn't the protocol on 8th June.
I stand by my statements.

Good point - so why was it not in place?

Events to date show that it should have been - think of the resources & grief it would have saved.

As Seymour said : "This government cannot even run a bath, let alone a quarantine system."

Actually we know the answer - David Clark was busy doing nothing and Comrade Cindy was basking in star dust to think about such things.

Joshuatree
02-07-2020, 10:07 AM
Admire him ( Clarke taking one for the team) for giving credit to NZ and all the health workers.80,000 plus tests recently, no community covid. We are in a very fortunate place in the world.He takes full responsibility for his decisions.An honour to work with ashley bloomfield during the most extreme health crises in a century.

Balance
02-07-2020, 10:10 AM
Admire him ( Clarke taking one for the team) for giving credit to NZ and all the health workers.80,000 plus tests recently, no community covid. We are in a very fortunate place in the world.He takes full responsibility for his decisions.An honour to work with ashley bloomfield during the most extreme health crises in a century.

After throwing Bloomfield under the bus, yes indeed! 🤣

Joshuatree
02-07-2020, 10:17 AM
He'd be dead.

Balance
02-07-2020, 10:19 AM
He'd be dead.

Whole country saw David Clark do it and whole country came to Bloomfield's rescue.

I think you must have been in delusional Comrade Cindy's cuckoo land. :t_up:

Joshuatree
02-07-2020, 10:22 AM
If that image of Bloomfield pulling a puppy dog face when clarke made him accountable hadn't been on the news/media none of this would not have happened and bloomfield gets off scot free here, plain wrong imo. Power of the image ehh and a picture never lies lol.

Baa_Baa
02-07-2020, 10:25 AM
David Clarke resigns. Good riddance.

RGR367
02-07-2020, 10:26 AM
David Clark, the man with no delicadeza finally resigned as Health Minister. Took him long to realize his position. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300047391/live-beleaguered-health-minister-david-clark-resigns

jonu
02-07-2020, 10:27 AM
So who will Cindy promote? Who in her stellar Cabinet and Caucus looks likely? Or does she go to the Greens or NZ First? (highly unlikely)

Joshuatree
02-07-2020, 10:32 AM
No idea Comrade jonu we will have to wait and see, but hey start your cynical attack already.

dobby41
02-07-2020, 10:33 AM
Whole country saw David Clark do it and whole country came to Bloomfield's rescue.

And that was fascinating.
Ashley from hero to zero in a minute and back to hero.
The public are so fickle and unthinking.

dobby41
02-07-2020, 10:38 AM
Good point - so why was it not in place?

Events to date show that it should have been - think of the resources & grief it would have saved.

No idea why not - I'm not an epidemiologist but I do know that these things develop over time.
Not sure what grief it would save by having the testing in place prior to 9th?
At the moment some people are still fixating on a 'nice to have' rather than a 'need to have'.

dobby41
02-07-2020, 10:39 AM
David Clarke resigns. Good riddance.

About time - he should have resigned when we went to level 1 at least.

Balance
02-07-2020, 10:41 AM
Admire him ( Clarke taking one for the team) for giving credit to NZ and all the health workers.80,000 plus tests recently, no community covid. We are in a very fortunate place in the world.He takes full responsibility for his decisions.An honour to work with ashley bloomfield during the most extreme health crises in a century.

So much for your admiration 🤣🤣🤣

dobby41
02-07-2020, 10:59 AM
So who will Cindy promote? Who in her stellar Cabinet and Caucus looks likely? Or does she go to the Greens or NZ First? (highly unlikely)

Chris Hipkins.

winner69
02-07-2020, 11:01 AM
chris hipkins.

omg ..........Hipkins

Sgt Pepper
02-07-2020, 11:02 AM
So much for your admiration 藍藍藍

I live in Dunedin and this possibly may have an impact on election day, although the extent of which at this stage difficult to determine. As I indicated in an earlier
post the old Dunedin South Electorate has had its boundaries changed to include more rural areas. The incumbent is not standing at the election and an out of towner., Ingrid Leary, has been parachuted in to stand for Labour. In my opinion she has not made an impact in the electorate. The risk is many could resent, once again, of being taken for granted and its possible NZ First could take advantage of this. The candidate is a South Otago farmer.
As for Dunedin North David Clark will probably get in BUT I am sure many may find it hard to tick the box next to his name. The other factor is that because Dunedin has been such a Labour fortress many have the expectation that their MPs become cabinet ministers, e.g Michael Cullen, David Benson Pope, Pete Hodgson etc. Neither candidate has the prospect , I presume of being in Cabinet after the election.
Because of all these factors Labour would be well advised to have Jacinda personally come and visit both electorates during the election, otherwise an upset is on the cards
Just my, on the ground in the electorate , opinion, what do others think?

black knat
02-07-2020, 11:49 AM
omg ..........Hipkins

It's an improvement, Hipkins is alright.

Baa_Baa
02-07-2020, 11:52 AM
About time - he should have resigned when we went to level 1 at least.

I reckon it will have been ... "come to my office David", "now which would you prefer, I fire you, or you resign, please choose quickly".

Balance
02-07-2020, 12:10 PM
I live in Dunedin and this possibly may have an impact on election day, although the extent of which at this stage difficult to determine. As I indicated in an earlier
post the old Dunedin South Electorate has had its boundaries changed to include more rural areas. The incumbent is not standing at the election and an out of towner., Ingrid Leary, has been parachuted in to stand for Labour. In my opinion she has not made an impact in the electorate. The risk is many could resent, once again, of being taken for granted and its possible NZ First could take advantage of this. The candidate is a South Otago farmer.
As for Dunedin North David Clark will probably get in BUT I am sure many may find it hard to tick the box next to his name. The other factor is that because Dunedin has been such a Labour fortress many have the expectation that their MPs become cabinet ministers, e.g Michael Cullen, David Benson Pope, Pete Hodgson etc. Neither candidate has the prospect , I presume of being in Cabinet after the election.
Because of all these factors Labour would be well advised to have Jacinda personally come and visit both electorates during the election, otherwise an upset is on the cards
Just my, on the ground in the electorate , opinion, what do others think?

Good assessment, SP.

fungus pudding
02-07-2020, 12:32 PM
I live in Dunedin and this possibly may have an impact on election day, although the extent of which at this stage difficult to determine. As I indicated in an earlier
post the old Dunedin South Electorate has had its boundaries changed to include more rural areas. The incumbent is not standing at the election and an out of towner., Ingrid Leary, has been parachuted in to stand for Labour. In my opinion she has not made an impact in the electorate. The risk is many could resent, once again, of being taken for granted and its possible NZ First could take advantage of this. The candidate is a South Otago farmer.
As for Dunedin North David Clark will probably get in BUT I am sure many may find it hard to tick the box next to his name. The other factor is that because Dunedin has been such a Labour fortress many have the expectation that their MPs become cabinet ministers, e.g Michael Cullen, David Benson Pope, Pete Hodgson etc. Neither candidate has the prospect , I presume of being in Cabinet after the election.
Because of all these factors Labour would be well advised to have Jacinda personally come and visit both electorates during the election, otherwise an upset is on the cards
Just my, on the ground in the electorate , opinion, what do others think?

Clare Curran and David Clark, neither one has done any favours for Dunedin. It doesn't seem to matter. The voters inexplicably stick firmly to Labour. They even had Brian MacDonell for twenty odd years, and he did absolutely nothing ever!! With a change to electorate boundaries there is a possibility that the new Taieri seat may give National a look in. Not so sure about the new seat just called Dunedin. Clark will hang on there. NZ First candidate won't figure in the election. I can't think why Jacinda would make much difference by visiting those electorates. The only audience she would attract would be old age pensioners who are died in the wool Labour voters anyway. The only party leader who ever motivated the masses in Dunedin enough to fill the town hall was Piggy Muldoon 'cos the students popped along to heckle and get insults hurled back at them. Great sport that was!