Labour / NZ First Government

[Balance]

Despite your prodigious output, your opinion is quite irrelevant :)

westerly

See how fearful the woke pixie dusted crowd have become since Crusher came on the scene?

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350762

Coalition government tearing itself apart.

Hell of a coalition partner Comrade Cindy has got herself and her team of incompetents into bed with!

[Marilyn Munroe]

About the the decision to grant Manus Island resident Iranian Behrouz Boochani refugee status.

The Australians will be livid.

I hope they do not retaliate by ending visa free entry into Australia for Kiwis.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[Balance]

About the the decision to grant Manus Island resident Iranian Behrouz Boochani refugee status.

The Australians will be livid.

I hope they do not retaliate by ending visa free entry into Australia for Kiwis.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

Exactly what the Australians warned NZ not to do.

Good one, Comrade Cindy - burnishing her CV (great humanitarian, she is) for the UN job she has her eyes in.

She could not give a stuff about what the decision means for NZers in Oz and going to Oz.

[westerly]

See how fearful the woke pixie dusted crowd have become since Crusher came on the scene?

Technically, going by the Merriam-Webster dictionary’s definition, woke means “aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)”, but today we are more likely to see it being used as a stick with which to beat people who aspire to such values, often wielded by those who don’t recognise how un-woke they are, or are proud of the fact.

westerly

[moka]

THIS.

If you ever want to define blind, besotted love of Cindy, refer to THIS. Blind, blinkered, woke smothered love. Do I smell coffee brewing? Not in JT's house.
It seems to me that Joshuatree was judging the government’s behaviour, by saying “constant improvements and tweaks mean that we are the envy of the world.” You are judging the person, love them or hate them because of who they are – female leader, Labour Party = the wrong party, and wanting to find fault with them to confirm your bias.

[moka]

Where is the competence?
It has now been 84 days since the last case of community transmission. We are getting most of it right, making a few mistakes, and learning from those mistakes. For me that demonstrates two aspects of competence, our track record and the constant improving of our performance. Managed isolation is uncharted territory so lets celebrate our success compared to most other countries.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350707

[Balance]

It has now been 84 days since the last case of community transmission. We are getting most of it right, making a few mistakes, and learning from those mistakes. For me that demonstrates two aspects of competence, our track record and the constant improving of our performance. Managed isolation is uncharted territory so lets celebrate our success compared to most other countries.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350707

We have been lucky - that’s the long and short of it with the quarantine shambles.

That luck may not last if NZ continues to chance our quarantine measures.

[Balance]

It has now been 84 days since the last case of community transmission. We are getting most of it right, making a few mistakes, and learning from those mistakes. For me that demonstrates two aspects of competence, our track record and the constant improving of our performance. Managed isolation is uncharted territory so lets celebrate our success compared to most other countries.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350707


Technically, going by the Merriam-Webster dictionary’s definition, woke means “aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)”, but today we are more likely to see it being used as a stick with which to beat people who aspire to such values, often wielded by those who don’t recognise how un-woke they are, or are proud of the fact.

westerly

Times change, the meaning behind words can also change.

Gay used to be a descriptive word for someone who’s jovial, happy and generally uplifting. These days, gay means homosexual.

Likewise, woke now has a different meaning from what it used to mean.

[moka]

Election 2020: New Zealand First Coalition agreement - progress report
New Zealand First has achieved or partially achieved about 80 per cent of the commitments in the agreement which sealed the deal on the Coalition Government in 2017.
Almost 70 promises were made in the Coalition agreement between NZ First and Labour. This is how they've done on the NZ First commitments
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348676&ref=recommendedv1

[moka]

Speaker Trevor Mallard's warning to bad MPs: Shape up or be publicly exposed.
The Code of Conduct has seven commandments:
1. Show that bullying and harassment, including sexual harassment, are unacceptable - and promising to hold people to account.
2. Speak up if we observe unacceptable behaviour - and expect complaints to be investigated without reprisals against the complainant.
3. Use our position of power or influence to help others, and avoid harm - and ensure power or authority are used for good and not abused.
4. Act respectfully and professionally - and be considerate of people's boundaries and respect their right to a private life.
5. Behave fairly and genuinely, treating others the way we would like to be treated - including being trustworthy stewards of information.
6. Encourage diverse perspectives, and the free and frank expression of views - and provide opportunities for people with different ideas and perspectives.
7. Foster an environment where people feel safe and valued - including being kind and recognising the contributions of others.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350798

[Balance]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421970/winston-peters-tiwai-point-plan-we-re-going-to-take-things-back-to-the-beginning

What a sham of a government - NZF & Winston who picked Labour (37% poll) to be government openly fighting, disrupting and criticising Comrade Cindy & her bunch of incompetents.

The truth now surfaces for all NZers to see - they should vote accordingly.

[iceman]

Speaker Trevor Mallard's warning to bad MPs: Shape up or be publicly exposed.
The Code of Conduct has seven commandments:
1. Show that bullying and harassment, including sexual harassment, are unacceptable - and promising to hold people to account.
2. Speak up if we observe unacceptable behaviour - and expect complaints to be investigated without reprisals against the complainant.
3. Use our position of power or influence to help others, and avoid harm - and ensure power or authority are used for good and not abused.
4. Act respectfully and professionally - and be considerate of people's boundaries and respect their right to a private life.
5. Behave fairly and genuinely, treating others the way we would like to be treated - including being trustworthy stewards of information.
6. Encourage diverse perspectives, and the free and frank expression of views - and provide opportunities for people with different ideas and perspectives.
7. Foster an environment where people feel safe and valued - including being kind and recognising the contributions of others.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350798

Moka. Seriously. Do you think chief BULLY Trevor Mallard has got any authority when speaking about these matters ? He should not be in the position he is in today, full stop. He is the worst and most biased Speaker I've ever seen in Parliament.

[Balance]

Election 2020: New Zealand First Coalition agreement - progress report
New Zealand First has achieved or partially achieved about 80 per cent of the commitments in the agreement which sealed the deal on the Coalition Government in 2017.
Almost 70 promises were made in the Coalition agreement between NZ First and Labour. This is how they've done on the NZ First commitments
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12348676&ref=recommendedv1

80% of bugger all = bugger all.

The big ones (housing, local government revenues & costs) are where they have not been able to get progress on and we now see that in open conflict on major economic directions & initiatives (the last thing NZ can afford is economic confusion):

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350559

"This week, however, marked a turning point in Coalition relations as Peters used more extreme language and descriptions for his colleagues in Government. Peters did not just present his own policy yesterday in Invercargill; he suggested others who had been to Invercargill recently had indulged in BS - bovine scatology."

Well, we can see Comrade Cindy & her bunch of incompetents are scratching like mad & getting rattled from the fleas - this is what they get from sleeping in the same bed with the known dog Winston 'Owen Glenn' Peters. Recall how Helen Clark had to hold her nose while attempting to distant herself from Owen Glenn & Winston NO Peters?

[artemis]

We have been lucky - that’s the long and short of it with the quarantine shambles.

That luck may not last if NZ continues to chance our quarantine measures.

In the Herald today - Covid 19 coronavirus: Australia could have up to 500,000 secret infections

Said to be at the higher end of predictions but the number will not be zero. Hard to believe New Zealand's number is zero.

[fungus pudding]

In the Herald today - Covid 19 coronavirus: Australia could have up to 500,000 secret infections

Said to be at the higher end of predictions but the number will not be zero. Hard to believe New Zealand's number is zero.

Especially since it isn't.

11807

[artemis]

Especially since it isn't....

Secret infections, that is cases in the community but not known or not counted or both.

They walk among us.

[fungus pudding]

Secret infections, that is cases in the community but not known or not counted or both.

They walk among us.

Even less reason to think NZ's number is zero.

[elZorro]

Even less reason to think NZ's number is zero.

That doesn't make sense, because the cross-infection rate with no lockdown in place is in the order of 2-5 per infected case, so it would show up really quickly if there was a 'secret infection'. I was briefly in Melbourne a few weeks before we locked down, and the public and tourists there were crammed into buses, trams, queues outside restaurants etc, so I wasn't surprised Covid took off over there.

We have eradicated it, except at the borders. A direct result of the coalition listening to the experts and shutting down hard early, and not keeping anything but the most essential businesses trading. I don't for a moment think that National/Act would have done it as well. Most voters would appreciate this, so I'm expecting a landslide Labour-Green coalition in September.

[fungus pudding]

That doesn't make sense, because the cross-infection rate with no lockdown in place is in the order of 2-5 per infected case, so it would show up really quickly if there was a 'secret infection'. I was briefly in Melbourne a few weeks before we locked down, and the public and tourists there were crammed into buses, trams, queues outside restaurants etc, so I wasn't surprised Covid took off over there.

We have eradicated it, except at the borders. A direct result of the coalition listening to the experts and shutting down hard early, and not keeping anything but the most essential businesses trading. I don't for a moment think that National/Act would have done it as well. Most voters would appreciate this, so I'm expecting a landslide Labour-Green coalition in September.

The point is Artemis claimed he found it hard to believe it was zero, which it isn't. Get with it eZ. Anyway welcome back now that you've crawled out from under your rock. Just in time to remind us how wonderful the Labour party is in time for the election no doubt.

[RupertBear]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/300066249/jacinda-ardern-a-favourite-among-bookies-for-2020-nobel-peace-prize

Geez bet this makes you spew Balance :lol:

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/300066249/jacinda-ardern-a-favourite-among-bookies-for-2020-nobel-peace-prize

Geez bet this makes you spew Balance :lol:

Good for her and good for NZ if Comrade Cindy gets the prize.

And of course, laying the groundwork for what she really wants to do post PM.

She will be a better choice than Trump who is still upset he did not get it for his peace deal with North Korea.

And she would be in the same company as Obama who got the peace prize for ? Can anyone remember?

[blackcap]

And she would be in the same company as Obama who got the peace prize for ? Can anyone remember?

I will nibble. I think he got it for saying "yes we can" or some other nonsense.

[tim23]

Poll result - Collins crushed...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351077

[Balance]

Poll result - Collins crushed...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351077

Good! Sets the scene for a rebound next poll.

Obviously a rogue poll but it still confirms that NZF & Winston are gone burgers. 😁

[RupertBear]

Poll result - Collins crushed...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351077

She pretty popular our Jacinda and yep Crusher Collins has been crushed and yep Winnie maybe a gone burger :D

[Joshuatree]

Rogue leader with a history of dirty politics,can National swim from here,dont think so ,sinking into a quicksand swamp sadly of their own making ,deeper and deeper .Will they stop squirming,they cant,its in Judiths power crazy nature,Glug!

[Balance]

Rogue leader with a history of dirty politics,can National swim from here,dont think so ,sinking into a quicksand swamp sadly of their own making ,deeper and deeper .Will they stop squirming,they cant,its in Judiths power crazy nature,Glug!

It's NZ which will be sinking into the economic swamp of despair if Comrade Cindy & her incompetents run the country into the ground for another 3 years.

Some of us don't really mind as come sunshine or rain, there's ways to make things work - Labour lop-sided 'beneficiaries breeding' policies are there to be taken advantage of.

Let's DO This!

[iceman]

This is the sad thing for me Balance. It is like the posters admiring the Current NZF run Government, do not realise that we are probably watching the biggest transfer of wealth from the "poor" to the "rich" (for want of better words) we've seen in our lifetimes. Very sad and will get worse.
Unemployment will sky rocket from September onwards and bankruptcies will reach unprecedented levels in 2021 & 2022.

[Balance]

This is the sad thing for me Balance. It is like the posters admiring the Current NZF run Government, do not realise that we are probably watching the biggest transfer of wealth from the "poor" to the "rich" (for want of better words) we've seen in our lifetimes. Very sad and will get worse.
Unemployment will sky rocket from September onwards and bankruptcies will reach unprecedented levels in 2021 & 2022.

Most times we cannot control & influence what's happening out there but we certainly can control how we respond and react to what's happening.

Don't have to look further than how the developers of sub-standard housing were bailed out by Phil '10,000 houses a year Kiwibuild' Twyford and the consultants are enjoying a bonanza doing feasibility studies by the hundreds for this government.

Let's DO this!

[moka]

Moka. Seriously. Do you think chief BULLY Trevor Mallard has got any authority when speaking about these matters ? He should not be in the position he is in today, full stop. He is the worst and most biased Speaker I've ever seen in Parliament. I think you are shooting the messenger and not addressing the issue of misconduct and bullying that is rife in Parliament as per the Francis Report. You have just deflected the discussion onto the behaviour of one person, ignoring the bigger issue. Trevor Mallard has acknowledged his past behaviour was inappropriate and says he has improved. And that is progress. If he goes how many others should go? A code of conduct is a start.

This article discusses the flaws in the way the Speaker is selected which is archaic, unfair and unacceptable in falling well short of meeting acceptable constitutional standards. In short, there is a drastic need for reform.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/opinion-mallard-and-nationals-falling-exposes-deep-flaws-in-way-we-select-parliaments-referee
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/05/speaker-trevor-mallard-acknowledges-his-behaviour-hasn-t-been-perfect-after-bullying-review.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/05/speaker-trevor-mallard-acknowledges-his-behaviour-hasn-t-been-perfect-after-bullying-review.html)
But don’t expect reform of the Speaker’s role – or any other parliamentary procedure – any time soon, says Danyl Mclauchlan. He argues it’s not in the interest of the government and nor will it be in the interest of the next government – because they always benefit from the backward arrangements – see: How the Bennett vs Mallard standoff exposes a paradox at the heart of politics (https://criticalpolitics.us16.list-manage.com/track/click?u=c73e3fe9e4a0d897f8fa2746e&id=f38207f172&e=c5a5df3a97).
https://eveningreport.nz/2019/05/22/bryce-edwards-political-roundup-trevor-mallard-the-bullying-biased-boss-of-parliament/

[moka]

This is the sad thing for me Balance. It is like the posters admiring the Current NZF run Government, do not realise that we are probably watching the biggest transfer of wealth from the "poor" to the "rich" (for want of better words) we've seen in our lifetimes. Very sad and will get worse.
Unemployment will sky rocket from September onwards and bankruptcies will reach unprecedented levels in 2021 & 2022.
Yes, there will be a big transfer of wealth from the "poor" to the "rich", but it will happen no matter which party is in power, and it will be worse under National. It is not happening because of the policies of the current government but because of a global pandemic which doesn't differentiate between a democracy or dictatorship.
Capitalism needs to be tempered with a strong government with a focus on social welfare and consumer protection to offset the disadvantages of capitalism. Capitalism is an unstable system and crises are a regular occurence because of this.
But neoliberalism, the so-called free market advocates for less government and less regulation so the rich can take advantage and exploit opportunities especially when there is a crisis = transfer what little the poor have to themselves.

[Balance]

Yes, there will be a big transfer of wealth from the "poor" to the "rich", but it will happen no matter which party is in power, and it will be worse under National. It is not happening because of the policies of the current government but because of a global pandemic which doesn't differentiate between a democracy or dictatorship.
Capitalism needs to be tempered with a strong government with a focus on social welfare and consumer protection to offset the disadvantages of capitalism. Capitalism is an unstable system and crises are a regular occurence because of this.
But neoliberalism, the so-called free market advocates for less government and less regulation so the rich can take advantage and exploit opportunities especially when there is a crisis = transfer what little the poor have to themselves.

Breeding beneficiaries = this government’s version of countering the excesses of capitalism.

Breeding beneficiaries = entrenching their vote base of losers.

Let’s DO this!

[boysy]

Balance I get the impression you are a pale old stale male you wouldn’t be one of those beneficiary losers you refer to ie an oldie on the pension - you do realise they are the biggest beneficiary class after all.

You really are the personification of a nasty old right winger, which say a lot on a site like this.

I suspect irregardless of the performance of the current government you would put the boot into ‘comrade Cindy’ for simply breathing should you get the chance.

[Balance]

Balance I get the impression you are a pale old stale male you wouldn’t be one of those beneficiary losers you refer to ie an oldie on the pension - you do realise they are the biggest beneficiary class after all.

You really are the personification of a nasty old right winger, which say a lot on a site like this.

I suspect irregardless of the performance of the current government you would put the boot into ‘comrade Cindy’ for simply breathing should you get the chance.

When I get my super, it will be an entitlement from the taxes I have been paying from the decades of working productively, and NEVER drawing a cent from social welfarism.

The truth hurts, does it not that Comrade Cindy has delivered bugger all against the huge promises made in 2017 because outside of Covid-19, she heads a government of incompetent nincompoops.

And every excuse has been used by Labour to breed beneficiaries and in turn, their voter base.

You may be fooled and blind to it but don’t assume we all are so naive and blinded by woke pixie star dust not to see it.

Kiwibuild - less than 5% built out of the 16,000 promised. How far wrong can anyone get? How incompetent can anyone get to produce such a result?

[boysy]

Not sure where to start in response to that diatribe.

I will take a quote from those pixie fairy’s you are so fond of ‘ok boomer .....’

[fungus pudding]

Balance I get the impression you are a pale old stale male you wouldn’t be one of those beneficiary losers you refer to ie an oldie on the pension - you do realise they are the biggest beneficiary class after all.



Superannuation is not a benefit.

[tim23]

Breeding beneficiaries = this government’s version of countering the excesses of capitalism.

Breeding beneficiaries = entrenching their vote base of losers.

Let’s DO this!

Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?

[tim23]

Balance I get the impression you are a pale old stale male you wouldn’t be one of those beneficiary losers you refer to ie an oldie on the pension - you do realise they are the biggest beneficiary class after all.

You really are the personification of a nasty old right winger, which say a lot on a site like this.

I suspect irregardless of the performance of the current government you would put the boot into ‘comrade Cindy’ for simply breathing should you get the chance.

About right too boysy!

[tim23]

Superannuation is not a benefit.

Maybe not but a benefit in drag all the same. Comes out of the same budget I'm guessing.

[Balance]

Not sure where to start in response to that diatribe.

I will take a quote from those pixie fairy’s you are so fond of ‘ok boomer .....’

Coming from a beneficiary breeder, one has to consider that term 'boomer' as a compliment to hard work, self reliance and pride in achieving for oneself, family and community.

[Balance]

Maybe not but a benefit in drag all the same. Comes out of the same budget I'm guessing.

A third generation beneficiary drawing down the ever growing list of numerous benefits provided by this beneficiary breeding government = getting an entitlement? From what contribution?

Woke pixie dust.

[stoploss]

Not sure where to start in response to that diatribe.

I will take a quote from those pixie fairy’s you are so fond of ‘ok boomer .....’
Boysey , some people went to war for this country . Some paid taxes as high as 66 cents in the dollar .
All this on the understanding when they reached retirement they would receive a pension from the government .
Personally I feel most on here could probably do without it . However that’s not the point . The “ agreement or understanding “ was why many toiled away for so many years , when they get there let them enjoy it.

[tim23]

A third generation beneficiary drawing down the ever growing list of numerous benefits provided by this beneficiary breeding government = getting an entitlement? From what contribution?

Woke pixie dust.

Lets just call it a benefit (otherwise you are just playing with words) and pensioners can still apply for food grants etc - gee Balance you've probably lined up for one of those?

[Balance]

Lets just call it a benefit (otherwise you are just playing with words) and pensioners can still apply for food grants etc - gee Balance you've probably lined up for one of those?

This the best you can do? 🤣

[Baa_Baa]

Playing with words doesn’t dilute the simple fact that there are many different entitlements and the recipient is the beneficiary.

It is irrelevant whether one paid for the right to be entitled and receive the benefit. It just fits the convenient narrative of the haves against the have nots in order to conjoin the benevolent government with the wider narrative that some deserve It (they contributed) while others don’t (they did not contribute) ignoring all the grey areas in between, and tag that to an underperforming Government by way of trendy derogatory labels.

The diatribe is pitiful and childish school yard bully tactics which in itself is infantile and bereft of mature debate, though made all the more intolerable by incessant boring repetition and derogatory name calling.

And I won’t vote for labour, but that’s how I see the main actor here who has endless hours and days to spew his fetid myopia.

[fungus pudding]

Lets just call it a benefit (otherwise you are just playing with words) and pensioners can still apply for food grants etc - gee Balance you've probably lined up for one of those?

The paltry amount of superannuation I receive which is $249 per week or approx $13,000 per annum, is a minor fraction of the amount of tax I pay annually. It is not a benefit. It is an entitlement paid to everyone once reaching age 65.
I'm not complaining about our super scheme, it is what it is - but I sure as hell moan if anyone tells me I'm a beneficiary.

[Balance]

The paltry amount of superannuation I receive which is $249 per week or approx $13,000 per annum, is a minor fraction of the amount of tax I pay annually. It is not a benefit. It is an entitlement paid to everyone once reaching age 65.
I'm not complaining about our super scheme, it is what it is - but I sure as hell moan if anyone tells me I'm a beneficiary.

The majority of us would prefer the transferable compulsory super/pension scheme where all individuals contribute to during their working lives - and then draw down as their entitlement when they choose to retire.

NZ had such a scheme up until 1976 which was scrapped by that buffoon Muldoon in favour of national super. His pitch was that the compulsory super would build up to such a humongous amount that the superfund managers would end up controlling NZ. The government was a safer option to manage tax payers’ monies from which super would be universally provided.

The buffoon obviously did not understand international diversification and the electorate were foolish enough to buy his communists (reds under the bed) threat story.

What an opportunity lost for NZ.

[Balance]

Playing with words doesn’t dilute the simple fact that there are many different entitlements and the recipient is the beneficiary.

It is irrelevant whether one paid for the right to be entitled and receive the benefit. It just fits the convenient narrative of the haves against the have nots in order to conjoin the benevolent government with the wider narrative that some deserve It (they contributed) while others don’t (they did not contribute) ignoring all the grey areas in between, and tag that to an underperforming Government by way of trendy derogatory labels.

The diatribe is pitiful and childish school yard bully tactics which in itself is infantile and bereft of mature debate, though made all the more intolerable by incessant boring repetition and derogatory name calling.

And I won’t vote for labour, but that’s how I see the main actor here who has endless hours and days to spew his fetid myopia.

Can’t help it when some people equate popularity with competence, so blinded are they by woke pixie star dust.

In their time, Hitler and Idi Amin were also both enormously popular even though their populist economic policies were ruinous for their countries.

[Blue Skies]

Interesting, a massive majority of NZ'ers trust Labour 62% to handle the economy better than National 26%, National's supposed strongest card.

Paul Goldsmith seems a nice chap, always looks a bit flustered, but a lightweight compared to Grant Robertson.
They need another Bill English.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/newshub-reid-research-poll-kiwis-trust-labour-more-than-national-to-run-the-economy.html

[fungus pudding]

Interesting, a massive majority of NZ'ers trust Labour 62% to handle the economy better than National 26%, National's supposed strongest card.

Paul Goldsmith seems a nice chap, always looks a bit flustered, but a lightweight compared to Grant Robertson.
They need another Bill English.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/newshub-reid-research-poll-kiwis-trust-labour-more-than-national-to-run-the-economy.html

Most people are lightweights compared to Robertson with the possible exception of Gerry Brownley.

[iceman]

I think you are shooting the messenger and not addressing the issue of misconduct and bullying that is rife in Parliament as per the Francis Report. You have just deflected the discussion onto the behaviour of one person, ignoring the bigger issue. Trevor Mallard has acknowledged his past behaviour was inappropriate

No I am not shooting the messenger.
Trevor Mallard continues to be the biggest bully Parliament has ever seen and practices it nearly daily in Parliament and shockingly, in his behaviour and actions against a former staffer that he has accused of sexual harassment and sacked him without proof. I don't know if this guy is guilty or not guilty but it seems rather an unfair treatment where the Speaker of Parliament can behave like this and have all his decisions/fights paid for by the taxpayer (like Winston) while the guy fighting to clear his name is facing bankruptcy trying to clear his name.
Sorry moka but we are miles apart on this one.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122005822/trevor-mallard-says-plaintiff-in-defamation-claim-should-be-named

[stoploss]

No I am not shooting the messenger.
Trevor Mallard continues to be the biggest bully Parliament has ever seen and practices it nearly daily in Parliament and shockingly, in his behaviour and actions against a former staffer that he has accused of sexual harassment and sacked him without proof. I don't know if this guy is guilty or not guilty but it seems rather an unfair treatment where the Speaker of Parliament can behave like this and have all his decisions/fights paid for by the taxpayer (like Winston) while the guy fighting to clear his name is facing bankruptcy trying to clear his name.
Sorry moka but we are miles apart on this one.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122005822/trevor-mallard-says-plaintiff-in-defamation-claim-should-be-named
Ice, it's not like Winston he owes $ 320,000 for his defamation proceedings.......

[iceman]

Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?

How on earth can you claim this ? All the money they "claim" goes to their employees so there is no benefit for them in this. It is simply a Government delaying tactic until after the election, of masses of people losing their jobs and claiming the dole.

[iceman]

Ice, it's not like Winston he owes $ 320,000 for his defamation proceedings.......

But his legal fees were all paid for by the taxpayer, if I understand it correctly !!

[Blue Skies]

How on earth can you claim this ? All the money they "claim" goes to their employees so there is no benefit for them in this. It is simply a Government delaying tactic until after the election, of masses of people losing their jobs and claiming the dole.



With respect I think its a bit more complex than that.
Yes the subsidy goes to the employee, but there is also a well recognised benefit to the employer which should also be acknowledged.
The sudden shock of the lockdown meant many businesses would have to lay off staff & it was recognised there is a huge disruption & cost to a business in finding, interviewing & re-employing new employees when business picks up.
While some businesses (e.g. dependent on foreign tourists or international students) have not seen a pick up, many businesses are humming again & having their employees meant a considerably quicker recovery than otherwise would have happened.
That's good economics for the country, good policy.

[justakiwi]

Exactly .....!


With respect I think its a bit more complex than that.
Yes the subsidy goes to the employee, but there is also a well recognised benefit to the employer which should also be acknowledged.
The sudden shock of the lockdown meant many businesses would have to lay off staff & it was recognised there is a huge disruption & cost to a business in finding, interviewing & re-employing new employees when business picks up.
While some businesses (e.g. dependent on foreign tourists or international students) have not seen a pick up, many businesses are humming again & having their employees meant a considerably quicker recovery than otherwise would have happened.
That's good economics for the country, good policy.

[iceman]

With respect I think its a bit more complex than that.
Yes the subsidy goes to the employee, but there is also a well recognised benefit to the employer which should also be acknowledged.
The sudden shock of the lockdown meant many businesses would have to lay off staff & it was recognised there is a huge disruption & cost to a business in finding, interviewing & re-employing new employees when business picks up.
While some businesses (e.g. dependent on foreign tourists or international students) have not seen a pick up, many businesses are humming again & having their employees meant a considerably quicker recovery than otherwise would have happened.
That's good economics for the country, good policy.

In a recent piece by Tony Alexander, he summarised the view of business owners that responded to him with stories from the GFC in 2008-2009. A large majority of them said their biggest mistake was to try far too much to hold onto staff for too long, leading to a much harder hit and more job losses than they would have if they had ruthlessly dealt with the situation at the start.
Your above post assumes most businesses will recover quickly and continue operation. I respectfully disagree and think we will sadly see a huge level of redundancies and bankruptcies.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong and you are right.

Just for the record, I’m not criticising the Government policy as they were faced with a no win situation. I’m disagreeing with the post saying employers using the wage subsidy are beneficiaries. They are not, by any stretch of the imagination

[Balance]

In a recent piece by Tony Alexander, he summarised the view of business owners that responded to him with stories from the GFC in 2008-2009. A large majority of them said their biggest mistake was to try far too much to hold onto staff for too long, leading to a much harder hit and more job losses than they would have if they had ruthlessly dealt with the situation at the start.
Your above post assumes most businesses will recover quickly and continue operation. I respectfully disagree and think we will sadly see a huge level of redundancies and bankruptcies.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong and you are right.

Just for the record, I’m not criticising the Government policy as they were faced with a no win situation. I’m disagreeing with the post saying employers using the wage subsidy are beneficiaries. They are not, by any stretch of the imagination


In the real world, Iceman, the layoffs and redundancies you have alerted & referred to have already started happening -

Employers (doing the right thing) by keeping staff on using the wage subsidy and doing the decent thing by topping up employees’ remuneration -

but post wage subsidy, having to lay staff off.

Start with The Warehouse (1,000+) and continue down the list to the latest AMI (100+).

Talk to business owners out there and most of them are having to cut staff numbers.

The wage subsidy was indeed simply staving off the inevitable.

Now, here's the crucial point per discussion about beneficiaries : if employers topping up employees’ remuneration = employers being beneficiaries, then we know where this country is heading with Comrade Cindy & her incompetents in charge.

Breeding beneficiaries - there’s no getting away with that basic principle of Labour’s economic strategy & policy.

[artemis]

.... Breeding beneficiaries - there’s no getting away with that basic principle of Labour’s economic strategy & policy.

It might really be different this time. The people losing their jobs have not been on the sofa for months or years. They are workers, and well used to and need an income greater than the dole, even the virus-dole. The former has partner income restrictions, the latter ends soon anyway.

They are going to be out there knocking on doors and applying for every job they can find.

Many of them will also be frustrated and angry.

[jonu]

In the real world, Iceman, the layoffs and redundancies you have alerted & referred to have already started happening -

Employers (doing the right thing) by keeping staff on using the wage subsidy and doing the decent thing by topping up employees’ remuneration -

but post wage subsidy, having to lay staff off.

Start with The Warehouse (1,000+) and continue down the list to the latest AMI (100+).

Talk to business owners out there and most of them are having to cut staff numbers.

The wage subsidy was indeed simply staving off the inevitable.

Now, here's the crucial point per discussion about beneficiaries : if employers topping up employees’ remuneration = employers being beneficiaries, then we know where this country is heading with Comrade Cindy & her incompetents in charge.

Breeding beneficiaries - there’s no getting away with that basic principle of Labour’s economic strategy & policy.

Surely you aren't suggesting a worker's Utopia? Where everybody suckles at the breast of Mother State? What a wondrous idea! Just think how harmoniously we would all work together for the good of all! United in the common cause....a team of 5 million....a diverse rainbow of humanity toiling together. Rain those hammer blows....swing those sickles....

Oh wait....the 20th Century suggests otherwise.

[Balance]

Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?

Stunning admission from one of the resident Labourites of woke pixie dusted mentality :

If employers topping up employees’ remuneration = employers being beneficiaries, then we know where this country is heading with Comrade Cindy & her incompetents in charge.

[justakiwi]

As are many of the negatively labelled “beneficiaries” - but of course, the general judgemental public will never believe it, or give us any credit for working our arses off, trying to get a job. I am no longer in this category but I have been there, twice, and those here who are constantly beneficiary shaming (not you) literally have no clue.


It might really be different this time. The people losing their jobs have not been on the sofa for months or years. They are workers, and well used to and need an income greater than the dole, even the virus-dole. The former has partner income restrictions, the latter ends soon anyway.

They are going to be out there knocking on doors and applying for every job they can find.

Many of them will also be frustrated and angry.

[Balance]

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/economic-recovery/a-useless-handbrake-is-released

What happens when one of Comrade Cindy's incompetents is in charge - paralysis.

[Blue Skies]

I think John Key said something along the lines of there are no words to describe the economic carnage caused by this global Covid pandemic. Its 10 x bigger than the GFC.

So if you're looking for perfect solutions, you're not going to get them & most recognise that, hense the 82% approval rating for the govt despite the forecast unemployment level of 9.8% by Treasury or 10.5% by ANZ, by Sept of this year dropping back to 7 or 8% by 2021.

As has been acknowledged many times, some businesses will fail. There's not much anyone can do about foreign tourists while the pandemic rages outside of NZ.
Covid has caused huge disruption in other ways too.
The trend to Online shopping has been hugely accelerated, some say brought forward by as much as 5 years, & many businesses like The Warehouse are having to respond to that by closing retail stores.

With the increasing disruption caused by giants like Amazon, Google & Apple etc with their mega profits, & increasing automation & use of robotics in everything from agriculture to surgery, there's going to be far fewer jobs in future & I can't see there's much any govt can do about that.
However, Govt's can & must mitigate the effects to avoid massive catastrophic social disruption & I think Grant Robertson (like Bill English before him), has a very good grasp of this.

Around the world, Govt's are starting to consider they may need to provide a Universal Income at some point in the future, esp when you consider the world's richest 26 people own as much wealth as the poorest half the worlds population, or just a tiny 5% of the worlds population now hold over 70% of the worlds wealth & that trend is only increasing.

The Covid pandemic has accelerated all these highly complex challenges.
So we will be looking at an increasing number of people needing some degree of welfare support & we had better start adjusting to that idea.

[Balance]

So we will be looking at an increasing number of people needing some degree of welfare support & we had better start adjusting to that idea.

Breeding beneficiaries - that's the long and short of this idealess & clueless government.

[blackcap]

The Covid pandemic has accelerated all these highly complex challenges.
So we will be looking at an increasing number of people needing some degree of welfare support & we had better start adjusting to that idea.

That would in my humble opinion be a disaster for society. Idle hands are a recipe for a lot of social problems and ills.

[Balance]

That would in my humble opinion be a disaster for society. Idle hands are a recipe for a lot of social problems and ills.

Covid-19 has played beautifully into the hands of the incompetents who cannot ever deliver 5% of the huge promise made on Kiwibuild.

Breeding beneficiaries under the guise of covid-19 will deliver plenty of votes though to keep the incompetents in power for a long long time.

Those of us who know their game will benefit from it - so Let's Do This!

[tim23]

In the real world, Iceman, the layoffs and redundancies you have alerted & referred to have already started happening -

Employers (doing the right thing) by keeping staff on using the wage subsidy and doing the decent thing by topping up employees’ remuneration -

but post wage subsidy, having to lay staff off.

Start with The Warehouse (1,000+) and continue down the list to the latest AMI (100+).

Talk to business owners out there and most of them are having to cut staff numbers.

The wage subsidy was indeed simply staving off the inevitable.

Now, here's the crucial point per discussion about beneficiaries : if employers topping up employees’ remuneration = employers being beneficiaries, then we know where this country is heading with Comrade Cindy & her incompetents in charge.

Breeding beneficiaries - there’s no getting away with that basic principle of Labour’s economic strategy & policy.

On no - you are blaming the government for COOVID 19 - plenty of your lot can end up on benefit through no fault of their own - its the economy stupid!

[Balance]

On no - you are blaming the government for COOVID 19 - plenty of your lot can end up on benefit through no fault of their own - its the economy stupid!

You are the one who believes that employers are beneficiaries even while they are topping up the wage subsidies to employees with their own monies.

Explain that first.

Says a lot about your woke pixie dusted mindset, does it not?


Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?

[moka]

No I am not shooting the messenger.
Trevor Mallard continues to be the biggest bully Parliament has ever seen and practices it nearly daily in Parliament and shockingly, in his behaviour and actions against a former staffer that he has accused of sexual harassment and sacked him without proof. I don't know if this guy is guilty or not guilty but it seems rather an unfair treatment where the Speaker of Parliament can behave like this and have all his decisions/fights paid for by the taxpayer (like Winston) while the guy fighting to clear his name is facing bankruptcy trying to clear his name.
Sorry moka but we are miles apart on this one.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122005822/trevor-mallard-says-plaintiff-in-defamation-claim-should-be-named
After receiving the Francis report Trevor Mallard urged victims of serious sexual assault to seek support. A previous complaint was reopened and it was found substantiated and the man’s employment contract came to an end. I will let the judge decide if it is defamation or not.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/389766/parliament-bullying-mallard-urges-rape-victims-to-seek-support (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/389766/parliament-bullying-mallard-urges-rape-victims-to-seek-support)
Speaker of the House Trevor Mallard says it's his impression from the report on bullying at Parliament that people have been raped there, and he is urging the victims to go to police or support agencies. Some of the most serious accusations included allegations of sexual harassment, including three cases of serious sexual assault.
Mr Mallard told Morning Report's Susie Ferguson it was his interpretation that people had been raped at Parliament.
"We're talking about serious sexual assault, well that, for me, that's rape ... that is the impression I get from the report, yes."
He said his reading of the report was that the offences were all committed by one person, and said he did not know who that person was.
He urged the victims to go either to police or support agencies and report the assaults.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122213171/speaker-trevor-mallard-loses-suppression-argument-in-defamation-claim (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122213171/speaker-trevor-mallard-loses-suppression-argument-in-defamation-claim)
Amid allegations of bullying at Parliament an old complaint against the man that already been investigated and found not to be made out, was reopened. Ultimately it was found substantiated and the man’s employment contract came to an end, the judge said.
The complainant did not allege rape but the man said that Mallard expressly or by implication, told media that it was a rape complaint.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12234879 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12234879)
A three-year-old complaint, laid two years after the alleged assault occurred, was investigated last year and the man was exonerated.
The investigation into those claims has now been reopened and he's been sent home with Mallard declaring at the time that "I can give an assurance that one of the key dangers is no longer in Parliament".

[moka]

That would in my humble opinion be a disaster for society. Idle hands are a recipe for a lot of social problems and ills.
As Blue Skies said in the post "there's going to be far fewer jobs in future & I can't see there's much any govt can do about that." With fewer jobs we need a rethink about paid work and reducing the stigma about being unemployed. If there are not suitable jobs blaming the unemployed for the problem is one of the ills of society, and contributes to social problems - depression, addiction, and suicide.
How about some kindness towards beneficiaries who find themselves in an unfortunate position not of their making.

[Balance]

As Blue Skies said in the post "there's going to be far fewer jobs in future & I can't see there's much any govt can do about that." With fewer jobs we need a rethink about paid work and reducing the stigma about being unemployed. If there are not suitable jobs blaming the unemployed for the problem is one of the ills of society, and contributes to social problems - depression, addiction, and suicide.
How about some kindness towards beneficiaries who find themselves in an unfortunate position not of their making.

Tens of thousands of jobs are going begging in the agricultural sector and NZ employed over 200,000 short term workers to fill jobs.

Show kindness and compassion when said ‘beneficiaries’ get off their backsides and do something useful.

What a scam our beneficiary system is - an absolute and total scam.

[blackcap]

Tens of thousands of jobs are going begging in the agricultural sector and NZ employed over 200,000 short term workers to fill jobs.

Show kindness and compassion when said ‘beneficiaries’ get off their backsides and do something useful.

What a scam our beneficiary system is - an absolute and total scam.

Totally agree. There are so many jobs that could be taken by Kiwi's yet we get in foreigners because the kiwis here can't be arsed to do these jobs, either too lazy or beneath their dignity. However they are quite happy taking the benefit. The laws regarding accepting the benefit should be made that much more strict and it should be harder to get welfare, rather than easier. Don't want to work? That's ok, no benefit for you.

[artemis]

For those in the workforce with dependants, low wages for low skilled jobs are a disincentive to work. Although there are a couple of taxpayer transfers based on income, family size and location (eg Accommodation Supplement) for the most part wages don't increase along with family size.

About 6000 babies are born into benefit dependent households each year, with another 3-4000 in such a household before they are 12 months old. Benefit goes up.

Why work?

The previous government introduced a policy that parent/s of those 6000 babies must be work ready when they are a year old, provided the next youngest is school age. The idea was to put these parents on the same footing as those that get off the sofa and go to work every day. Policy well and truly ditched now, and quite possible it didn't work very well anyway.

The UK has a 2 child max policy for some child benefits. More parents entered the workforce.

[Balance]

Totally agree. There are so many jobs that could be taken by Kiwi's yet we get in foreigners because the kiwis here can't be arsed to do these jobs, either too lazy or beneath their dignity. However they are quite happy taking the benefit. The laws regarding accepting the benefit should be made that much more strict and it should be harder to get welfare, rather than easier. Don't want to work? That's ok, no benefit for you.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122274576/grant-robertson-mortgage-holidays-could-be-extended-wage-subsidy-back-if-needed

And why would the Kiwis made redundant want to work when this government is encouraging them to become beneficiaries?

See the grinning photo of Grant Robertson promising plenty more social welfare benefits in the article, all in the name of Covid-19.

Not a word from him about doing a decent day’s work when there are employers out there pleading for workers!

[justakiwi]

Every time someone makes a comment like this, they are making an assumption about people they do not know. Yes, no doubt some of you “know someone” on a benefit who is exploiting the system, but the vast majority of beneficiaries want to work. Wanting to work and being able to are, however, two different things! Single parents are generally not in a position to uproot their family and move to Nelson to pick fruit for a season. They can’t just abandon their kids to go work on a fishing boat. They can’t afford to pay for full time child care while they go work on a dairy farm for minimum wage. It is damned difficult to make those kinds of situations work, if not impossible.

I was a single Mum raising four kids. I was on a benefit for more years than I ever anticipated. I managed to get a part time job in a furniture factory, paying $10/hour (back then) but I spent more on petrol, traveling to work, than what I earned. It was not doable. Yes, things have improved since then, but please don’t fall into the trap of believing beneficiaries have it easy. It is a bloody hard slog, and being constantly disparaged by people who have never walked in your shoes, does nothing to support us or help our self esteem. It is difficult enough to have to ask for help, visit food banks or apply for school “charity” funds so your kid can go on a school camp; without being sniggered at and condemned by the rest of the population.

And before anyone says it ... no, I am not ​an exception to the rule. The vast majority of beneficiaries were, and are, in the same boat as me - trying to dig ourselves out of the same black hole.


Don't want to work? That's ok, no benefit for you.

[blackcap]

Every time someone makes a comment like this, they are making an assumption about people they do not know. Yes, no doubt some of you “know someone” on a benefit who is exploiting the system, but the vast majority of beneficiaries want to work. Wanting to work and being able to are, however, two different things! Single parents are generally not in a position to uproot their family and move to Nelson to pick fruit for a season. They can’t just abandon their kids to go work on a fishing boat. They can’t afford to pay for full time child care while they go work on a dairy farm for minimum wage. It is damned difficult to make those kinds of situations work, if not impossible.

I was a single Mum raising four kids. I was on a benefit for more years than I ever anticipated. I managed to get a part time job in a furniture factory, paying $10/hour (back then) but I spent more on petrol, traveling to work, than what I earned. It was not doable. Yes, things have improved since then, but please don’t fall into the trap of believing beneficiaries have it easy. It is a bloody hard slog, and being constantly disparaged by people who have never walked in your shoes, does nothing to support us or help our self esteem. It is difficult enough to have to ask for help, visit food banks or apply for school “charity” funds so your kid can go on a school camp; without being sniggered at and condemned by the rest of the population.

And before anyone says it ... no, I am not ​an exception to the rule. The vast majority of beneficiaries were, and are, in the same boat as me - trying to dig ourselves out of the hole.

I understand your position. I am not saying that people should uproot and go to Nelson to pick fruit. That is insane. But if you are turning down dairy farm work because its too hard or beneath you, or get sacked because you are not reliable.... well sorry, no benefit for you. We have too many people in manual non-skilled labour that we import from the likes of the Phillipines etc. It is not good enough.

[iceman]

I've just been reading the news on charges for isolation costs for inbound passengers https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300068310/live-people-entering-new-zealand-could-be-charged-up-to-3100-for-quarantine-stay

But I've seen the NZF has said they've invoked the "agree to disagree" clause in their hidden coalition agreement. So does that mean the Government has no majority for this in Parliament as the PM said yesterday she saw no reason to talk to National about it !?

[Zaphod]

I've just been reading the news on charges for isolation costs for inbound passengers https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300068310/live-people-entering-new-zealand-could-be-charged-up-to-3100-for-quarantine-stay

But I've seen the NZF has said they've invoked the "agree to disagree" clause in their hidden coalition agreement. So does that mean the Government has no majority for this in Parliament as the PM said yesterday she saw no reason to talk to National about it !?

I presume not. This is however exactly the sort of decision that requires have strong cross party support. Very disappointing.

[iceman]

I presume not. This is however exactly the sort of decision that requires have strong cross party support. Very disappointing.

It should not be a problem for the Government to reach across the aisle and find an agreeable policy that National could support. Not so sure on what they are proposing though, seems at first read to be full of holes and ill defined exemptions, as so often happens when legislation is fast tracked through Parliament without proper debate and scrutiny.

[Balance]

Wheels fell off the coalition wagon a while ago - they could only cover up the cracks for so long.

[moka]

Tens of thousands of jobs are going begging in the agricultural sector and NZ employed over 200,000 short term workers to fill jobs.
Not everyone wants to work in the agricultural sector or is suitable for the work e.g. older workers. And often the work means moving to another area for fruit-picking etc. Do the sums and this is often not practical for short term work when you are renting or paying a mortgage. You can’t pay your mortgage or rent and also pay accommodation costs where you are working. It gets more complicated if you have children at school. Changing schools is very disruptive for children's education.

[moka]

I understand your position. I am not saying that people should uproot and go to Nelson to pick fruit. That is insane. But if you are turning down dairy farm work because its too hard or beneath you, or get sacked because you are not reliable.... well sorry, no benefit for you. We have too many people in manual non-skilled labour that we import from the likes of the Phillipines etc. It is not good enough.
Not everyone wants to work on a dairy farm or is suitable, and an unwilling farm worker requires a lot of effort from the employer. It is not worth him wasting his time on someone who doesn’t want to be there. A good farm worker is actually a highly skilled person. A farm is different from the factory floor or the office. Working with animals is best done by someone who likes animals and treats them well. Getting up at 5am or earlier, milking cows, living in the country doesn’t appeal to everyone.

well sorry, no benefit for you…. So does the person starve if they get no benefit, or do they turn to crime? Paying a benefit is cheaper than the costs to society through the health, justice and also the economic system of not paying a benefit.
Do you like being forced to do something you don’t want to do? Why do you think it is okay to do to that to other people, such as beneficiaries? Treat others as you would like to be treated.

[moka]

For those in the workforce with dependants, low wages for low skilled jobs are a disincentive to work. Although there are a couple of taxpayer transfers based on income, family size and location (eg Accommodation Supplement) for the most part wages don't increase along with family size.

About 6000 babies are born into benefit dependent households each year, with another 3-4000 in such a household before they are 12 months old. Benefit goes up.

Why work?

The previous government introduced a policy that parent/s of those 6000 babies must be work ready when they are a year old, provided the next youngest is school age. The idea was to put these parents on the same footing as those that get off the sofa and go to work every day. Policy well and truly ditched now, and quite possible it didn't work very well anyway.

The UK has a 2 child max policy for some child benefits. More parents entered the workforce.
Why work?
If you are a parent of a baby or young child you do work. They are a lot of work. And if you are a single parent it is a 24/7 job. It is not paid work but it definitely is work and child care centres expect to be paid to do it.
What a strange world when unpaid work is not considered work, and raising children is not considered work. Is it any wonder there is a breakdown of the family when raising children is not valued?

[Balance]

Why work?
If you are a parent of a baby or young child you do work. They are a lot of work. And if you are a single parent it is a 24/7 job. It is not paid work but it definitely is work and child care centres expect to be paid to do it.
What a strange world when unpaid work is not considered work, and raising children is not considered work. Is it any wonder there is a breakdown of the family when raising children is not valued?

Nobody disputes that looking after a child and bringing up a family is hard work - probably the most intense.

But when did society move from that to saying that all parents should be paid for having children?

[blackcap]

Not everyone wants to work on a dairy farm or is suitable, and an unwilling farm worker requires a lot of effort from the employer. It is not worth him wasting his time on someone who doesn’t want to be there. A good farm worker is actually a highly skilled person. A farm is different from the factory floor or the office. Working with animals is best done by someone who likes animals and treats them well. Getting up at 5am or earlier, milking cows, living in the country doesn’t appeal to everyone.

well sorry, no benefit for you…. So does the person starve if they get no benefit, or do they turn to crime? Paying a benefit is cheaper than the costs to society through the health, justice and also the economic system of not paying a benefit.
Do you like being forced to do something you don’t want to do? Why do you think it is okay to do to that to other people, such as beneficiaries? Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Its all about mindset. Everyone can work on a farm if they want to. You do not need to like animals to work on a farm. I have worked on a farm and am not what you would call an animal lover (I do like animals but no more than anyone else). Getting up at 5am is not that difficult either with a bit of discipline.
If you really want to work and provide for your family that is a small sacrifice to pay. If someone does not want to do that, then sorry, no benefit. I am not forcing anyone to do anything by the way. They force it on themselves. There are other places where they can work too. Unfortunately the last 30 years or so we have cultivated an entitlement culture where people have become dependent on the state and are loath to look after themselves and their responsibilities. Your comments are full of entitlement.

[Balance]

Its all about mindset. Everyone can work on a farm if they want to. You do not need to like animals to work on a farm. I have worked on a farm and am not what you would call an animal lover (I do like animals but no more than anyone else). Getting up at 5am is not that difficult either with a bit of discipline.
If you really want to work and provide for your family that is a small sacrifice to pay. If someone does not want to do that, then sorry, no benefit. I am not forcing anyone to do anything by the way. They force it on themselves. There are other places where they can work too. Unfortunately the last 30 years or so we have cultivated an entitlement culture where people have become dependent on the state and are loath to look after themselves and their responsibilities. Your comments are full of entitlement.

100% agreed.

Bang on observation about the woke pixie dusted Labourite posters on this thread - all about entitlements and justifying why beneficiaries need not work and it's society's fault - always. Bunch of losers.

[jonu]

Why work?
If you are a parent of a baby or young child you do work. They are a lot of work. And if you are a single parent it is a 24/7 job. It is not paid work but it definitely is work and child care centres expect to be paid to do it.
What a strange world when unpaid work is not considered work, and raising children is not considered work. Is it any wonder there is a breakdown of the family when raising children is not valued?

I agree with the general sentiment expressed here, but also see blackcap's points about self reliance. There is always a tension between a handup and a handout. I think our modern capitalist libertarian society has it wrong on both fronts at the moment. And I fear an extreme pendulum swing to the Left will only worsen matters. Sadly that is where Labour seems determined to take us, with or without the help of the Greens.

[fungus pudding]

Why work?
If you are a parent of a baby or young child you do work. They are a lot of work. And if you are a single parent it is a 24/7 job. It is not paid work but it definitely is work and child care centres expect to be paid to do it.
What a strange world when unpaid work is not considered work, and raising children is not considered work. Is it any wonder there is a breakdown of the family when raising children is not valued?

Of course it should not be paid work - anymore than washing your own car or vacuuming your house. If it's a problem - don't breed.

[justakiwi]

My dairy farmer son (previously sheep farming) would disagree, as would many farmers.

Farming today requires:

Physical fitness and good health - if you have a bad back, a dodgy knee or asthma for instance, you might struggle with a job in farming.

Good maths skills - some of us are mathematically minded. Some are not (regardless of how much education one has)

A desire to work with animals and an understanding and commitment to animal welfare. If you don’t like animals you are far more likely to mistreat them (intentionally or not)

Common sense and the ability to find solutions to things.

Commitment and dedication-if you genuinely don’t enjoy the country life, farming isn’t for you.

It is no different from many other jobs. We have talked a lot about rest home caregiving in various threads lately. Not everyone is suited to that kind of work. I know lovely people who tried it because they wanted a job that was meaningful and rewarding. Smart, intelligent, caring, wonderful people - but they found they simply couldn’t deal with the personal cares side of the job. That doesn’t make them lazy or unwilling to make sacrifices. It makes them honest enough to admit they are not a good fit for the job. It is very easy to go down the “any job is better than no job” road, when you are not walking in job seekers’ shoes.

I’m pretty sure there are jobs out there you would not want to do, or would not be suited to. If someone forced you to do them anyway, you might see things a bit differently.


Its all about mindset. Everyone can work on a farm if they want to. You do not need to like animals to work on a farm.

[dobby41]

If it's a problem - don't breed.

Breeding is useful to the country unless we want the population to decrease or just rely on importing our replacements.
And that is an option - we just have to have the conversation that that's what we, as a country, want to happen.
Without replacement we will run out of tax payers as the population ages.

[fungus pudding]

Breeding is useful to the country unless we want the population to decrease or just rely on importing our replacements.
And that is an option - we just have to have the conversation that that's what we, as a country, want to happen.
Without replacement we will run out of tax payers as the population ages.

Breeding isn't for everyone, or at least shouldn't be.

[dobby41]

Breeding isn't for everyone, or at least shouldn't be.

Some would say that the wrong 'type' of people are breeding but that wouldn't be PC at all :scared:

[blackcap]

I’m pretty sure there are jobs out there you would not want to do, or would not be suited to. If someone forced you to do them anyway, you might see things a bit differently.

I have had jobs I did not want to do or were not suited to me but I did them because it was my responsibility to provide for my family. However it incentivised me to find other lines of work that suited more. Saying that we should provide the dole because job seekers do not like some kinds of work is the wrong line of thinking. Farming as have other manual labour jobs have got a lot easier on the body with the increasing use of technology. Any job is definitely better than no job.

[justakiwi]

I am not saying we should provide the dole “because job seekers do not like some kinds of work.“ I am simply pointing out that you can’t just have a blanket expectation that a beneficiary can do any job that’s available. We all have different skills, abilities and levels of education. These are human beings we are talking about. We are not all the same!

I have a fear of heights. Do you seriously believe I should have been forced to train as a line mechanic and made to work up ladders or transmission lines? If someone has asthma, are you really going to send them to work in a seed cleaning factory? If someone faints at the sight of blood are you going to make them work at an abbatoir? If someone is scared of dogs are you sending them to work at a dog groomer?

Get real and have some modicum of understanding and common sense. One size does not fit all!


I have had jobs I did not want to do or were not suited to me but I did them because it was my responsibility to provide for my family. However it incentivised me to find other lines of work that suited more. Saying that we should provide the dole because job seekers do not like some kinds of work is the wrong line of thinking. Farming as have other manual labour jobs have got a lot easier on the body with the increasing use of technology. Any job is definitely better than no job.

[iceman]

I have had jobs I did not want to do or were not suited to me but I did them because it was my responsibility to provide for my family. However it incentivised me to find other lines of work that suited more. Saying that we should provide the dole because job seekers do not like some kinds of work is the wrong line of thinking. Farming as have other manual labour jobs have got a lot easier on the body with the increasing use of technology. Any job is definitely better than no job.

I know of a large fishing trawler in Nelson recently could not fill their crew, in an industry that is lucky enough to have plenty of work (and pay reasonably) still and despite huge numbers of so called "jobseekers". They ended up filling their numbers with young foreigners that they got from a backpacker hostel. Pathetic and lazy attitude.

[fungus pudding]

Some would say that the wrong 'type' of people are breeding but that wouldn't be PC at all :scared:

I wouldn't dare say that.:scared::scared:

[blackcap]

I am not saying we should provide the dole “because job seekers do not like some kinds of work.“ I am simply pointing out that you can’t just have a blanket expectation that a beneficiary can do any job that’s available. We all have different skills, abilities and levels of education. These are human beings we are talking about. We are not all the same!

I have a fear of heights. Do you seriously believe I should have been forced to train as a line mechanic and made to work up ladders or transmission lines? If someone has asthma, are you really going to send them to work in a seed cleaning factory? If someone faints at the sight of blood are you going to make them work at an abbatoir? If someone is scared of dogs are you sending them to work at a dog groomer?

Get real and have some modicum of understanding and common sense. One size does not fit all!

I am not saying that you should be forced to do anything. But if needs require you will find a way. There are currently too many people who are not taking jobs not because they cannot, but because they want not. That needs to be fixed. If one does not want to take a dairy farming role because they do not want to get up at 4am then sorry that is no excuse. If there was no dole, then you watch those positions being filled. The problem we have is the alternative is too easy and pays too much. No wonder there is a huge influx of foreigners coming to NZ taking positions that Kiwis should really be taking themselves. Like Iceman said, pathetic and lazy attitude.

[westerly]

I am not saying that you should be forced to do anything. But if needs require you will find a way. There are currently too many people who are not taking jobs not because they cannot, but because they want not. That needs to be fixed. If one does not want to take a dairy farming role because they do not want to get up at 4am then sorry that is no excuse. If there was no dole, then you watch those positions being filled. The problem we have is the alternative is too easy and pays too much. No wonder there is a huge influx of foreigners coming to NZ taking positions that Kiwis should really be taking themselves. Like Iceman said, pathetic and lazy attitude.

How about a few numbers rather than there are "far too many" There are not many dairy farms close to Auckland. So asking someone who may have dependents to shift to some rural area in another part of the country is not going to get too many takers. Very easy to say pathetic and lazy attitude but most rural jobs do not come with accomodation, require a vehicle for transport and so on.
As for crewing on a fishing boat good luck with that. :)

westerly

[iceman]

How about a few numbers rather than there are "far too many" There are not many dairy farms close to Auckland. So asking someone who may have dependents to shift to some rural area in another part of the country is not going to get too many takers. Very easy to say pathetic and lazy attitude but most rural jobs do not come with accomodation, require a vehicle for transport and so on.
As for crewing on a fishing boat good luck with that. :)

westerly

Right here is the exact attitude we are describing. I've made a career of fishing so find your comment strange to say the least, particularly implying as you do, that its preferable to stay on the dole. A job that pays reasonable money for hard manual low skilled labour for green hands, free food and free accommodation but young Kiwis today simple are not prepared to make sacrifices such as being away for a few weeks, when they can sit on the dole and do nothing. Shows how lazy and pathetic we as a country have become.

[Balance]

Right here is the exact attitude we are describing. I've made a career of fishing so find your comment strange to say the least, particularly implying as you do, that its preferable to stay on the dole. A job that pays reasonable money for hard manual low skilled labour for green hands, free food and free accommodation but young Kiwis today simple are not prepared to make sacrifices such as being away for a few weeks, when they can sit on the dole and do nothing. Shows how lazy and pathetic we as a country have become.

Once a beneficiary, always a beneficiary mindset - that comes across loud & clear from the Labourites here.

[justakiwi]

I will probably get banned for this, but if I do so be it. It will have been worth it.

FU Balance.

(Sorry moka. Sometimes you just need to tell it like it is)


Once a beneficiary, always a beneficiary mindset - that comes across loud & clear from the Labourites here.

[blackcap]

I will probably get banned for this, but if I do so be it. It will have been worth it.

FU Balance.

(Sorry moka. Sometimes you just need to tell it like it is)

I think you will find that Balance was talking about a mindset. There is nothing wrong with being a beneficiary. Benefits were established to help those out temporarily in need when that arose. (with the emphasis on temporary) It was never the intent that that need became a lifestyle. That is what Balance is arguing against I feel.
If you feel that benefits should be a lifestyle choice then I am appalled and staggered at that mindset.

[RupertBear]

Once a beneficiary, always a beneficiary mindset - that comes across loud & clear from the Labourites here.

Oh dear what has become of you Balance? You use to post some good stuff but your election posts are becoming more and more unhinged. Maybe you should change your name to Unbalanced :p

[dobby41]

Right here is the exact attitude we are describing. I've made a career of fishing so find your comment strange to say the least, particularly implying as you do, that its preferable to stay on the dole. A job that pays reasonable money for hard manual low skilled labour for green hands, free food and free accommodation but young Kiwis today simple are not prepared to make sacrifices such as being away for a few weeks, when they can sit on the dole and do nothing. Shows how lazy and pathetic we as a country have become.

If I was unemployed I wouldn't take a fishing boat job - I get seasick!
I wouldn't expect to be forced into one either.

Some of the measures being suggested here make me think of the Great Depression job creation stuff - seems some people's mindset hasn't moved past this.

Each case will be different - forcing a single mother to work on a remote dairy farm probably isn't a good idea (though it may work for some), think issues around child care etc.

At the end of the day the numbers aren't actually that great. Figures now bandied about look for 5-8% unemployment rather than the 15-20% (or more) talked about in the past.

[Balance]

If I was unemployed I wouldn't take a fishing boat job - I get seasick!
I wouldn't expect to be forced into one either.

Some of the measures being suggested here make me think of the Great Depression job creation stuff - seems some people's mindset hasn't moved past this.

Each case will be different - forcing a single mother to work on a remote dairy farm probably isn't a good idea (though it may work for some), think issues around child care etc.

At the end of the day the numbers aren't actually that great. Figures now bandied about look for 5-8% unemployment rather than the 15-20% (or more) talked about in the past.

Just move around and see the jobs being done by workers on temporary visas - I actually know quite a few of them & some of them are employed by business contacts of mine :

- Shop assistants
- Cleaners
- Petrol Station Attendants
- Supermarket staff
- Construction workers
- Fast food staff
- Fruit pickers
- Restaurant staff

Plenty of jobs around so there's absolutely no excuse about having to stray out of town etc etc in search of a job.

[Balance]

Oh dear what has become of you Balance? You use to post some good stuff but your election posts are becoming more and more unhinged. Maybe you should change your name to Unbalanced :p

You obviously cannot read the excuses and moans & pains from the Labourites here when the word 'work' rather than benefits is mentioned.

For that, I am sorry for you. :t_down:

[Zaphod]

If I was unemployed I wouldn't take a fishing boat job - I get seasick!
I wouldn't expect to be forced into one either.

Some of the measures being suggested here make me think of the Great Depression job creation stuff - seems some people's mindset hasn't moved past this.

Each case will be different - forcing a single mother to work on a remote dairy farm probably isn't a good idea (though it may work for some), think issues around child care etc.

I haven't seen any comments specifically advocating that single mothers work on remote dairy farms. The point appears to be that those capable of undertaking a job, whether they like it or not, should be. Your example would place them into a category that potentially wouldn't be able to, so I don't see that it invalidates the premise.


At the end of the day the numbers aren't actually that great. Figures now bandied about look for 5-8% unemployment rather than the 15-20% (or more) talked about in the past.

The signs still point towards 15%+ as subsidies are withdrawn, and the global economic beings to contract. We'll have some updates later tonight from the US.

[dobby41]

I haven't seen any comments specifically advocating that single mothers work on remote dairy farms. The point appears to be that those capable of undertaking a job, whether they like it or not, should be. Your example would place them into a category that potentially wouldn't be able to, so I don't see that it invalidates the premise.


The signs still point towards 15%+ as subsidies are withdrawn, and the global economic beings to contract. We'll have some updates later tonight from the US.

I agree that those who can should - but it needs to be looked at case by case.
People here make blanket statements.

As for the unemployment - sure there is more to come when the subsidies come off (you can't keep propping up unviable business forever) but I haven't seen the 15% bandied around for a long time now.
If you have a projection of that please share.

[Balance]

I will probably get banned for this, but if I do so be it. It will have been worth it.

FU Balance.

(Sorry moka. Sometimes you just need to tell it like it is)

Is that a promise or are you just teasing? 😜

[fungus pudding]

I will probably get banned for this, but if I do so be it. It will have been worth it.

FU Balance.


Not without charging him I hope.

[artemis]

Slight problem with requiring people to accept specific jobs. Have to find an employer who will take them on first. Unless they are make-work jobs paid by the taxpayer.

The newly unemployed will be much more likely to be offered jobs. They are work ready and have current references. Some others not so much.

[tim23]

I suppose the latest poll on 1 News is rogue as well for you Tory lovers?

[westerly]

Right here is the exact attitude we are describing. I've made a career of fishing so find your comment strange to say the least, particularly implying as you do, that its preferable to stay on the dole. A job that pays reasonable money for hard manual low skilled labour for green hands, free food and free accommodation but young Kiwis today simple are not prepared to make sacrifices such as being away for a few weeks, when they can sit on the dole and do nothing. Shows how lazy and pathetic we as a country have become.

You still haven't come up with any numbers as to how many unemployed turn down offered jobs.? It is your interpretation that I implied it is preferable to stay on the dole. I was lucky enough to never having been unemployed but times have changed and jobs are not easy to find at present.
Seasonal and agricultural jobs are not a career and are usually situated in areas without a high unemployed population.
I still wouldn't work on a fishing boat but you obviously were suited to a life at sea.

westerly

[RupertBear]

You obviously cannot read the excuses and moans & pains from the Labourites here when the word 'work' rather than benefits is mentioned.

For that, I am sorry for you. :t_down:

I can read pretty well thank you Balance and I can actually form my own opinions from what I read. I have never felt the need to ram my opinions down other peoples throats nor abuse people whose opinion differs from my own so I guess I dont understand your seemingly endless need to do so. But of course you are entitled to do so if thats what floats your boat it just gets a little tedious hearing the same thing over and over again. But each to their own.

And dont be sorry for me Balance you know absolutely nothing about me :)

[tim23]

I can read pretty well thank you Balance and I can actually form my own opinions from what I read. I have never felt the need to ram my opinions down other peoples throats nor abuse people whose opinion differs from my own so I guess I dont understand your seemingly endless need to do so. But of course you are entitled to do so if thats what floats your boat it just gets a little tedious hearing the same thing over and over again. But each to their own.

And dont be sorry for me Balance you know absolutely nothing about me :)

Good call - a few weeks ago Balance when defending Mike Hosking said something along the lines that Hoskings big toe had achieved more than me - what concerned me was that Balance doesn't know me and that Balance had intimate knowledge of Hosking toe - a wee bit weird!

[Balance]

I do not need to be a bull to know where steak comes from. 😁

[tim23]

I do not need to be a bull to know where steak comes from. ��

Thats even weirder...

[Balance]

Thats even weirder...

You need to read more, tim23-with-less-influence-than-Hoskings-big-toe.

[tim23]

I suppose the latest poll on 1 News is rogue as well for you Tory lovers?

2 1/2 hours gone and no comments from the Tories? Whats the matter Imbalance, Gus, Jonah and your cronies??

[justakiwi]

Yes, he was talking about a mindset. His mindset.
He seems to believe that beneficiaries are all lazy, incompetent people who have chosen to be jobless. He also apparently believes that once one is on a benefit one will be on it forever. So, as someone who has been a beneficiary twice during my life, I am offended by his ongoing criticism and disrespectful comments.

Of course I don't feel benefits should be a lifestyle choice! If that's what I believed I wouldn't have put myself through the hard slog and stress of completing a Level 5 ICT Diploma and an Office Management course while raising my kids. I also wouldn't have spent a year applying for countless jobs, stressing out about interviews, and breaking my heart over the pile of rejection letters I received. Let alone step outside my comfort zone and train for the job I now have (and love). You don't put yourself through all that if you think being on a benefit is a better "lifestyle choice."



I think you will find that Balance was talking about a mindset. There is nothing wrong with being a beneficiary. Benefits were established to help those out temporarily in need when that arose. (with the emphasis on temporary) It was never the intent that that need became a lifestyle. That is what Balance is arguing against I feel.
If you feel that benefits should be a lifestyle choice then I am appalled and staggered at that mindset.

[tim23]

2 1/2 hours gone and no comments from the Tories? Whats the matter Imbalance, Gus, Jonah and your cronies??


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352405

[iceman]

You still haven't come up with any numbers as to how many unemployed turn down offered jobs.? It is your interpretation that I implied it is preferable to stay on the dole. I was lucky enough to never having been unemployed but times have changed and jobs are not easy to find at present.
Seasonal and agricultural jobs are not a career and are usually situated in areas without a high unemployed population.
I still wouldn't work on a fishing boat but you obviously were suited to a life at sea.

westerly

Wasn't aware that I was supposed to come up with that number and wouldn't have a clue where you could find a reliable such number. The example I gave was clear, in a town where many young people are on the dole and unavailable for work that unduly interferes with their lifestyle. But honestly it's probably best to bypass them any way because most of them fail a drug test. Not sure where NZ is heading with this when an unfortunately large proportion of our young people don't want hard work or are unemployable as well as calls growing louder against work permits for foreign workers.

[tim23]

Yes, he was talking about a mindset. His mindset.
He seems to believe that beneficiaries are all lazy, incompetent people who have chosen to be jobless. He also apparently believes that once one is on a benefit one will be on it forever. So, as someone who has been a beneficiary twice during my life, I am offended by his ongoing criticism and disrespectful comments.

Of course I don't feel benefits should be a lifestyle choice! If that's what I believed I wouldn't have put myself through the hard slog and stress of completing a Level 5 ICT Diploma and an Office Management course while raising my kids. I also wouldn't have spent a year applying for countless jobs, stressing out about interviews, and breaking my heart over the pile of rejection letters I received. Let alone step outside my comfort zone and train for the job I now have (and love). You don't put yourself through all that if you think being on a benefit is a better "lifestyle choice."

Quite right - anyone can lose their job and they do! Guess what they typically have to apply for income support out of necessity. Anyway there are plenty of people working who get accommodation supplement I guess they are beneficiaries too because of their rent or mortgage costs as their wages aren't sufficient enough, then there are people who get Working for Families so its not just the unemployed.

[iceman]

Yes, he was talking about a mindset. His mindset.
He seems to believe that beneficiaries are all lazy, incompetent people who have chosen to be jobless. He also apparently believes that once one is on a benefit one will be on it forever. So, as someone who has been a beneficiary twice during my life, I am offended by his ongoing criticism and disrespectful comments.

Of course I don't feel benefits should be a lifestyle choice! If that's what I believed I wouldn't have put myself through the hard slog and stress of completing a Level 5 ICT Diploma and an Office Management course while raising my kids. I also wouldn't have spent a year applying for countless jobs, stressing out about interviews, and breaking my heart over the pile of rejection letters I received. Let alone step outside my comfort zone and train for the job I now have (and love). You don't put yourself through all that if you think being on a benefit is a better "lifestyle choice."

justakiwi I think most of the criticism here has not been leveled at all beneficiaries. It has been directed at the cohort of beneficiaries that has little or no intention of getting a job and if they do, it is only to clock up some time so they can go back on there. Sadly, I have recent examples of quite a lot of such behaviour at the same time as companies in their home towns are desperate for workers.
I think a huge majority of commentators on ST want our welfare system to be a good safety net for people that genuinely need it, normally temporarily due to circumstances out of their control. Furthermore, I think most people on here have gotten to where they are through hard work and determination, like you obviously have, not inherited great wealth..
The comments always get a bit more heated and personal (sadly) as we draw closer to elections. but hopefully they will all be kept relatively civil :-0

[Baa_Baa]

Yes, he was talking about a mindset. His mindset.
He seems to believe that beneficiaries are all lazy, incompetent people who have chosen to be jobless. He also apparently believes that once one is on a benefit one will be on it forever. So, as someone who has been a beneficiary twice during my life, I am offended by his ongoing criticism and disrespectful comments.

Of course I don't feel benefits should be a lifestyle choice! If that's what I believed I wouldn't have put myself through the hard slog and stress of completing a Level 5 ICT Diploma and an Office Management course while raising my kids. I also wouldn't have spent a year applying for countless jobs, stressing out about interviews, and breaking my heart over the pile of rejection letters I received. Let alone step outside my comfort zone and train for the job I now have (and love). You don't put yourself through all that if you think being on a benefit is a better "lifestyle choice."

I love you justakiwi, in platonic way if that even needs to be said, honestly for someone I’ve never met, I’d much rather subscribe to your passion and perseverance for a better life for yourself and all the disadvantaged than any of the hard right or hard left trolls on here.

Wallow in your goodness and humility, you deserve it, much more than many of the ‘well off’ here who seek to diminish the majority who really do struggle to make ends meet.

Remember, “don’t let the fvckers get you down”. My mantra.

[Balance]

2 1/2 hours gone and no comments from the Tories? Whats the matter Imbalance, Gus, Jonah and your cronies??

An excellent poll result after the rogue poll last week. 32% vs 24.5% - day & night!

In 4 weeks’ time, the 14% undecided will also firm up their preference and the picture will become clearer.

Down 5% for Labour, down 1% for Greens and it’s the start of sayanora comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents.

Meanwhile, some of us are positioned to win either way so enjoy!

One party wants to create jobs, the other party wants to breed more beneficiaries.

[RupertBear]

I love you justakiwi, in platonic way if that even needs to be said, honestly for someone I’ve never met, I’d much rather subscribe to your passion and perseverance for a better life for yourself and all the disadvantaged than any of the hard right or hard left trolls on here.

Wallow in your goodness and humility, you deserve it, much more than many of the ‘well off’ here who seek to diminish the majority who really do struggle to make ends meet.

Remember, “don’t let the fvckers get you down”. My mantra.

Well said Baa Baa, my respect to you and to Justakiwi :)

[moka]

If you really want to work and provide for your family that is a small sacrifice to pay. If someone does not want to do that, then sorry, no benefit. I am not forcing anyone to do anything by the way. They force it on themselves. There are other places where they can work too. Unfortunately the last 30 years or so we have cultivated an entitlement culture where people have become dependent on the state and are loath to look after themselves and their responsibilities. Your comments are full of entitlement.
My comments are about human rights and treating people with respect, dignity and fairness.

It depends which definition of entitlement you choose- the fact of having a right to something, or the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. I don’t think the right to receive a benefit is special treatment. We have made a lot of progress economically and in other ways in the last 30 years and the benefits should be shared, rather than the rich getting richer as jobs disappear and wages are stagnant or driven down.

[boysy]

An excellent poll result after the rogue poll last week. 32% vs 24.5% - day & night!

In 4 weeks’ time, the 14% undecided will also firm up their preference and the picture will become clearer.

Down 5% for Labour, down 1% for Greens and it’s the start of sayanora comrade Cindy & her team of incompetents.

Meanwhile, some of us are positioned to win either way so enjoy!

One party wants to create jobs, the other party wants to breed more beneficiaries.

An excellent poll result you have to be joking if you exclude the rouge poll the result is nothing short of disastrous for National a remember under soyman anything less than 40 was trouble territory. The fact that she keeps on spouting internal polling in the high 30s without providing this detail to even her own team speaks volumes, the fact nats are still leaking to the media shows the real mood of the party. Plenty of encumber Nat MPs will be out on the streets based on this polling simple as that.

[macduffy]

I'm not sure what a "rouge" poll is but if the recent poll is any indication the election remains Labour's to lose. Provided there's no second wave of the virus, we can expect a further Labour term, sans NZF and probably also Greens. Wouldn't be such a bad result, IMO.

[fungus pudding]

I'm not sure what a "rouge" poll is but if the recent poll is any indication the election remains Labour's to lose. Provided there's no second wave of the virus, we can expect a further Labour term, sans NZF and probably also Greens. Wouldn't be such a bad result, IMO.

Greens will make it over the line - always do.

[Blue Skies]

Just some observations.
National are down a further 6% on the previous Colmar Brunton poll, while Labour are up 3%. National would lose a quarter of its MP's while Labour could govern alone.
At 32% the level when previously the caucus (including Collins) has said they would need to change the leader, National itself (never mind anybody else) has said that would be a disaster.

Collins was saying the Reid poll was a rogue poll in which case she's saying it doesn't count. She & others can't now pretend Colmar B' is a good result, unless now admitting the Reid poll wasn't a rogue poll.
Which is it? Can't have it both ways.

Notably as explained, the earlier Reid poll was taken over a longer time frame & included the period just after most recent change of leadership & when National had several MP's being fired for unethical behaviour & it's number 2 & 3 ranked MP's Kaye & Adams resigned.

[dobby41]

An excellent poll result you have to be joking if you exclude the rouge poll the result is nothing short of disastrous for National a remember under soyman anything less than 40 was trouble territory.

Crusher is on record as saying polling under 35% and you should change the leader.
When asked she said 'not likely'.

[dobby41]

The signs still point towards 15%+ as subsidies are withdrawn, and the global economic beings to contract. We'll have some updates later tonight from the US.

Any idea who's still advocating 15% unemployment (other than you)?
Any interesting article on how we are bouncing back
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300070354/economists-might-have-to-concede-they-overestimated-negatives

[Balance]

An excellent poll result you have to be joking if you exclude the rouge poll the result is nothing short of disastrous for National a remember under soyman anything less than 40 was trouble territory. The fact that she keeps on spouting internal polling in the high 30s without providing this detail to even her own team speaks volumes, the fact nats are still leaking to the media shows the real mood of the party. Plenty of encumber Nat MPs will be out on the streets based on this polling simple as that.

And do you see the likes of me worried?

Not in the least as we, who know how to play the game, win either way.

It's NZ which will be sinking into the economic swamp of despair if Comrade Cindy & her incompetents run the country into the ground for another 3 years.

Some of us don't really mind as come sunshine or rain, there's ways to make things work - Labour lop-sided 'beneficiaries breeding' policies are there to be taken advantage of.

Let's DO This!

[moka]

Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?
The subsidy was paid out by MSD/Work and Income due to financial hardship because employers were significantly impacted by COVID-19.

Sounds like a hardship grant/benefit to me. Employers definitely benefited from the payment from the generous benefactor = the government.
A benefactor provides money or other resources to an individual, group, or organization. A beneficiary receives these benefits.

Special Needs Grant = Hardship Grant. A Special Needs Grant is a one-off payment to help you pay an essential or emergency cost if you can't pay it another way. You usually don't have to pay the money back.
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/products/a-z-benefits/special-needs-grant.html#null

[Blue Skies]

And do you see the likes of me worried?

Not in the least as we, who know how to play the game, win either way.

It's NZ which will be sinking into the economic swamp of despair if Comrade Cindy & her incompetents run the country into the ground for another 3 years.

Some of us don't really mind as come sunshine or rain, there's ways to make things work - Labour lop-sided 'beneficiaries breeding' policies are there to be taken advantage of.

Let's DO This!



Sadly thats the sense of entitlement & extremely cynical selfish values which have become all too closely aligned with the National Party in recent years. The awful attitudes, sense of entitlement & values which Todd Muller & Nikki Kaye wanted to expunge from the National Party.
Look where its got them. A major party with over 20 of their MP's leaving for various reasons, this term, a crisis in leadership & disastrous polling.
And yet still so self- unaware.

They're the complete antithesis of the style of leadership of Jacinda Adern, and even when Labour make mistakes & are far from perfect, people want a more caring honest govt and politicians with integrity.

[Balance]

Sadly thats the sense of entitlement & extremely cynical selfish values which have become all too closely aligned with the National Party in recent years. The awful attitudes, sense of entitlement & values which Todd Muller & Nikki Kaye wanted to expunge from the National Party.
Look where its got them. A major party with over 20 of their MP's leaving for various reasons, this term, a crisis in leadership & disastrous polling.
And yet still so self- unaware.

They're the complete antithesis of the style of leadership of Jacinda Adern, and even when Labour make mistakes & are far from perfect, people want a more caring honest govt and politicians with integrity.

I did not vote National last election so you are way off beam with your observation.

As for honesty & integrity, try the hijab and the granting of asylum for the Iranian queue jumper as instances of how cynical & hypocritical Cindy is.

Burnishing her UN job credentials at the expense of oppressed Muslim women (hijab is a symbol of oppression in many Islamic countries like Iran, Afghanistan & Iraq) and going back on the commitment to Australia not to allow Manus Island refugees to jump queue.

[Balance]

The subsidy was paid out by MSD/Work and Income due to financial hardship because employers were significantly impacted by COVID-19.

Sounds like a hardship grant/benefit to me. Employers definitely benefited from the payment from the generous benefactor = the government.
A benefactor provides money or other resources to an individual, group, or organization. A beneficiary receives these benefits.

Special Needs Grant = Hardship Grant. A Special Needs Grant is a one-off payment to help you pay an essential or emergency cost if you can't pay it another way. You usually don't have to pay the money back.
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/products/a-z-benefits/special-needs-grant.html#null

An employer topping up the wage subsidy to keep employees on = a beneficiary? So paying money out = a beneficiary?

Guess that's why the Warehouse & FBU gave this government the one finger salute and laid thousands off.

Class 'A' garbage.

It's clear there's not one single job-creating employer amongst the Labourites here.

[dobby41]

As for honesty & integrity, try the hijab and the granting of asylum for the Iranian queue jumper as instances of how cynical & hypocritical Cindy is.


Since we don't have an asylum queue it can't be jumped.
This is a National try to deflect from what really matters - and their own internal woes.
So obvious.

[Balance]

Since we don't have an asylum queue it can't be jumped.
This is a National try to deflect from what really matters - and their own internal woes.
So obvious.

I did not vote National so you can put my postings in context instead of using the ole bogeyman trick.

The Iranian was released from Manus Island on a visitor's visa to NZ for a speaking engagement. He was there because he tried to queue jump.

Suddenly, he gets asylum - totally contradictory to what his visitor's visa was issued for.

Indefensible deceitful underhandedl behaviour by Cindy.

Great for Comrade Cindy’s UN job credentials but the rest of NZ will pay the price if the Australians tighten down on restrictions for NZers there.

And who can blame them?

Don't try to hood wink the rest of us - we are not so easily hoodwinked as you are.

[justakiwi]

Oh, you are hood winked Balance. Hood winked by your own obsessive, compulsive beliefs, which are no longer grounded in reality. You have created your “story” about our Prime Minister. You have obsessed and raged for months in your attempt to disparage her. Your story is now your reality. But that doesn’t make it true.

You are fast becoming the Kiwi equivalent of Trump.




Don't try to hood wink the rest of us - we are not so easily hoodwinked as you are.

[tim23]

An excellent poll result you have to be joking if you exclude the rouge poll the result is nothing short of disastrous for National a remember under soyman anything less than 40 was trouble territory. The fact that she keeps on spouting internal polling in the high 30s without providing this detail to even her own team speaks volumes, the fact nats are still leaking to the media shows the real mood of the party. Plenty of encumber Nat MPs will be out on the streets based on this polling simple as that.

Heaven forbid - those outgoing National Mps might ended up on welfare!

[tim23]

I did not vote National last election so you are way off beam with your observation.

As for honesty & integrity, try the hijab and the granting of asylum for the Iranian queue jumper as instances of how cynical & hypocritical Cindy is.

Burnishing her UN job credentials at the expense of oppressed Muslim women (hijab is a symbol of oppression in many Islamic countries like Iran, Afghanistan & Iraq) and going back on the commitment to Australia not to allow Manus Island refugees to jump queue.

If you have to persevere with your cheap shots at the PM (who is rather popular) as least you could show her the courtesy of using her correct Christian name.

[justakiwi]

Another “mark” of insecure narcissistic bullies.


If you have to persevere with your cheap shots at the PM (who is rather popular) as least you could show her the courtesy of using her correct Christian name.

[Balance]

Oh, you are hood winked Balance. Hood winked by your own obsessive, compulsive beliefs, which are no longer grounded in reality. You have created your “story” about our Prime Minister. You have obsessed and raged for months in your attempt to disparage her. Your story is now your reality. But that doesn’t make it true.

You are fast becoming the Kiwi equivalent of Trump.

Employers topping up the wage subsidy are beneficiaries according to tim23 - says everything about the state of mind of the Labourites posting on this thread (brainwashed by Cynical Cindy wearing the hijab and must be just about beyond redemption).

Pray explain the Manus Island queue jumping refugee being granted asylum - why taunt the Australians? Cynical, deceitful and totally irresponsible.

I refuse to be hoodwinked by style over substance. You are free to worship the ground she walks on but there are those of us who can see through all that pixie dust.

[Balance]

If you have to persevere with your cheap shots at the PM (who is rather popular) as least you could show her the courtesy of using her correct Christian name.

Hitler was extremely popular with the Germans too, remember? Popular does not = best for a country.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352752

Meanwhile, she says she trusts the sly lying Winston 'Owen Glenn' Peters when an overwhelming majority of NZers say they do not. How cynical & hypocritical can you get?

[westerly]

Pray explain the Manus Island queue jumping refugee being granted asylum - why taunt the Australians? Cynical, deceitful and totally irresponsible.

I refuse to be hoodwinked by style over substance. You are free to worship the ground she walks on but there are those of us who can see through all that pixie dust.

Whats wrong with upsetting the Aussies? They don't exactly do us too many favours. Not long ago you were raving on about how well they did without a lockdown. Looks like they are going to have one now.
I see your friend Winston is now using your "woke pixie dust " terms of indearment now - strange?
Your popularity rating is possibly much the same.

westerly

[tim23]

Whats wrong with upsetting the Aussies? They don't exactly do us too many favours. Not long ago you were raving on about how well they did without a lockdown. Looks like they are going to have one now.
I see your friend Winston is now using your "woke pixie dust " terms of indearment now - strange?
Your popularity rating is possibly much the same.

westerly

Very true - Balance I almost feel pity for you - it must be hard being so horrible on this site (and weird too)

[Baa_Baa]

Very true - Balance I almost feel pity for you - it must be hard being so horrible on this site (and weird too)

Weird is weird does. Regardless of political persuasion. An election brings out all the weird

[tim23]

Weird is weird does. Regardless of political persuasion. An election brings out all the weird

True I guess but it was Balances knowledge of Mike Hoskings big toe that sealed the weird deal for me.

[Balance]

Very true - Balance I almost feel pity for you - it must be hard being so horrible on this site (and weird too)

Spare me your pitiful sympathies and keep it for the beneficiaries being bred by Comrade Cindy & her bunch of incompetents if Labour gets another term.

They are going to go deeper into that hole dug for them while those of us who know how the game is played will continue to do very well, thank you.

[Balance]

Whats wrong with upsetting the Aussies? They don't exactly do us too many favours. Not long ago you were raving on about how well they did without a lockdown. Looks like they are going to have one now.
I see your friend Winston is now using your "woke pixie dust " terms of indearment now - strange?
Your popularity rating is possibly much the same.

westerly

I will put up the number of PMs from ST posters here thanking me for my postings on this site vs anyone of you Labourites anytime.

Brave enough, Westerly, to give it a go? Shall we say $1,000 since that’s all you can probably afford?

[boysy]

Mate get a life - if you really are doing so well at the moment why do you complain incessantly about the current bunch in power - the petty put downs and insults really are stepping up from those pale old males on right on queue.

You and your pms perhaps you and mike Hosking can remain in the Same echo chamber.

Sad angry bitter old men trying to be relevant in a world which will quickly forget them, something I’m not sure won’t happen to Comrade Cindy .....

[Balance]

Mate get a life - if you really are doing so well at the moment why do you complain incessantly about the current bunch in power - the petty put downs and insults really are stepping up from those pale old males on right on queue.

You and your pms perhaps you and mike Hosking can remain in the Same echo chamber.

Sad angry bitter old men trying to be relevant in a world which will quickly forget them, something I’m not sure won’t happen to Comrade Cindy .....

That’s the best you can do, boomer?

Pathetic you lot really are - so woke pixie dusted you cannot even have a view of your own?

Regurgitating the same garbage & excuses one Labourite after another - like Hitler’s faithful followers used to do.

Popular does not = good for the country.

[RupertBear]

If we are all so pathetic Balance why waste your time brow beating us with your rants and personal abuse?

And you are stooping pretty low even for you to start comparing Labour supporters with Hitler. Seriously man what is your problem cos you certainly have one.

Welcome to my ignore list :t_up: oh and you are the only one on it :D

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352646

Water only policy by Greens in sports club - that’s Labour partner in generating woke pixie dust.

Matter of time before they will start introducing policies like Helengrad’s policy on the type & size of shower heads you can use in the house.

[moka]

Employers topping up the wage subsidy are beneficiaries according to tim23 - says everything about the state of mind of the Labourites posting on this thread (brainwashed by Cynical Cindy wearing the hijab and must be just about beyond redemption).

I refuse to be hoodwinked by style over substance. You are free to worship the ground she walks on but there are those of us who can see through all that pixie dust.
Tim23 did not say “Employers topping up the wage subsidy are beneficiaries.”
He said “Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?”
You have misquoted him which says more about your state of mind. You refuse to be hoodwinked by facts preferring your own fantasy.
It is your story that is made of pixie dust. Your comments reflect your feelings but you project them onto others. You are the cynical one not Jacinda.

[moka]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352492
'Compassionate': Jacinda Ardern ranked world's most eloquent leader.
Professional development coaches compiled a list of the world's most eloquent leaders and Ardern topped the list after being praised for her empathy.
"Jacinda Ardern employs an empathetic leadership style. She challenges the common perception that emotional communication shows weakness, instead choosing to approach the public with softer touch," the Development Academy wrote.
"She has a measured and authoritative sincerity about her – she is kind and compassionate, without shying away from tough issues."

Three of the leaders named in the top five are women, with German Chancellor Angela Merkel named as the second most eloquent leader, ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in third place and Canada's Justin Trudeau, who was ranked fourth.
Scotland's Prime Minister Nicola Sturgeon was ranked fifth, with praise for her response to the Covid-19 pandemic as well as her humour.

"Jacinda Ardern for example, is a sincere and compassionate speaker, while Nicola Sturgeon is very engaging while demonstrating empathy."
Although there are only around 10% of women in leadership roles worldwide, female leaders make up 50% of the top communicators."

[iceman]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352492
'Compassionate': Jacinda Ardern ranked world's most eloquent leader.
Professional development coaches compiled a list of the world's most eloquent leaders and Ardern topped the list after being praised for her empathy.
"Jacinda Ardern employs an empathetic leadership style. She challenges the common perception that emotional communication shows weakness, instead choosing to approach the public with softer touch," the Development Academy wrote.
"She has a measured and authoritative sincerity about her – she is kind and compassionate, without shying away from tough issues."

Three of the leaders named in the top five are women, with German Chancellor Angela Merkel named as the second most eloquent leader, ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in third place and Canada's Justin Trudeau, who was ranked fourth.
Scotland's Prime Minister Nicola Sturgeon was ranked fifth, with praise for her response to the Covid-19 pandemic as well as her humour.

"Jacinda Ardern for example, is a sincere and compassionate speaker, while Nicola Sturgeon is very engaging while demonstrating empathy."
Although there are only around 10% of women in leadership roles worldwide, female leaders make up 50% of the top communicators."

So all the top World leaders are from Commonwealth countries but lets throw Merkel in there to give a little credibility. No bias there of course. Too funny

[blackcap]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352492
'Compassionate': Jacinda Ardern ranked world's most eloquent leader.
Professional development coaches compiled a list of the world's most eloquent leaders and Ardern topped the list after being praised for her empathy.
"Jacinda Ardern employs an empathetic leadership style. She challenges the common perception that emotional communication shows weakness, instead choosing to approach the public with softer touch," the Development Academy wrote.
"She has a measured and authoritative sincerity about her – she is kind and compassionate, without shying away from tough issues."

Three of the leaders named in the top five are women, with German Chancellor Angela Merkel named as the second most eloquent leader, ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in third place and Canada's Justin Trudeau, who was ranked fourth.
Scotland's Prime Minister Nicola Sturgeon was ranked fifth, with praise for her response to the Covid-19 pandemic as well as her humour.

"Jacinda Ardern for example, is a sincere and compassionate speaker, while Nicola Sturgeon is very engaging while demonstrating empathy."
Although there are only around 10% of women in leadership roles worldwide, female leaders make up 50% of the top communicators."

Have a look who completed that survey? This "Development Academy? wtf, has only been around for about a year or so. What are they? Who are they?

Jacinda eloquent? With her possidivvidy....


The real question should be, why are the Herald even publishing this BS? Big loss of credibility for the Herald.

[Balance]

Have a look who completed that survey? This "Development Academy? wtf, has only been around for about a year or so. What are they? Who are they?

Jacinda eloquent? With her possidivvidy....

Less than 12 months - good catch, blackcap on the insidious forces at work out there - the woke pixie dusted crowd pushing the style over substance narrative out there right along as per usual.

The giveaway of the hidden agenda is Modi who has been encouraging Hindu nationalism & divisiveness to the detriment of minorities in India.

[Balance]

Tim23 did not say “Employers topping up the wage subsidy are beneficiaries.”
He said “Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?”
You have misquoted him which says more about your state of mind. You refuse to be hoodwinked by facts preferring your own fantasy.
It is your story that is made of pixie dust. Your comments reflect your feelings but you project them onto others. You are the cynical one not Jacinda.

Stand aside, moka and let tim23 explain his comment 'Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?'

I am sure he is capable of explaining his comment without you twisting and turning ever each way and tying him up in knots. You are not doing him any favors.

[justakiwi]

He doesn't need anyone to do him any favours. His comment is correct. Any payment made to anyone by MSD is a social welfare payment ie: a benefit of some kind.

Moka has tried to help you find a different perspective to the tunnel visioned view you are obsessed with. Moka has way more patience than I do. If you could actually discuss rationally, without total reliance on repetitive catch phrases or name calling out downs, we might all actually be able to have an adult debate. Everyone has given you the opportunity to do that, but all we ever get is more of the same Trump Twitter like ranting. Ad infinitum. Surely you can find an alternative place/forum to hang out with like minded people that would better serve your political agenda, and need for validation, than this one?


Stand aside, moka and let tim23 explain his comment 'Employers who claimed the wage subsidy are beneficiaries too aren't they?'

I am sure he is capable of explaining his comment without you twisting and turning ever each way and tying him up in knots. You are not doing him any favors.

[Balance]

He doesn't need anyone to do him any favours. His comment is correct. Any payment made to anyone by MSD is a social welfare payment ie: a benefit of some kind.

Moka has tried to help you find a different perspective to the tunnel visioned view you are obsessed with. Moka has way more patience than I do. If you could actually discuss rationally, without total reliance on repetitive catch phrases or name calling out downs, we might all actually be able to have an adult debate. Everyone has given you the opportunity to do that, but all we ever get is more of the same Trump Twitter like ranting. Ad infinitum. Surely you can find an alternative place/forum to hang out with like minded people that would better serve your political agenda, and need for validation, than this one?

Tim23 does not need you either to explain.

Or does he?

[justakiwi]

See this is what you do. Never actually respond in a mature way. You simply deflect. There is no substance to your posts or to your replies to others. Baiting people seems to be your "go to" when you have nothing of any significance to say. Which is why you always end up back on ignore.


Tim23 does not need you either
to explain.

Or does he?

[fungus pudding]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352492
'Compassionate': Jacinda Ardern ranked world's most eloquent leader.
Professional development coaches compiled a list of the world's most eloquent leaders and Ardern topped the list after being praised for her empathy.
"Jacinda Ardern employs an empathetic leadership style. She challenges the common perception that emotional communication shows weakness, instead choosing to approach the public with softer touch," the Development Academy wrote.
"She has a measured and authoritative sincerity about her – she is kind and compassionate, without shying away from tough issues."

Three of the leaders named in the top five are women, with German Chancellor Angela Merkel named as the second most eloquent leader, ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in third place and Canada's Justin Trudeau, who was ranked fourth.
Scotland's Prime Minister Nicola Sturgeon was ranked fifth, with praise for her response to the Covid-19 pandemic as well as her humour.

"Jacinda Ardern for example, is a sincere and compassionate speaker, while Nicola Sturgeon is very engaging while demonstrating empathy."
Although there are only around 10% of women in leadership roles worldwide, female leaders make up 50% of the top communicators."

They certainly are more experienced at talking.

[tim23]

That’s the best you can do, boomer?

Pathetic you lot really are - so woke pixie dusted you cannot even have a view of your own?

Regurgitating the same garbage & excuses one Labourite after another - like Hitler’s faithful followers used to do.

Popular does not = good for the country.

Woke - you stole from Hosking and Pixie dust from Bill English so who is the one without original thought now? As for the Hitler comparison its not only weird but distasteful -I'm surprised the site Moderator hasn't given you a Red card.

[fungus pudding]

Woke - you stole from Hosking and Pixie dust from Bill English so who is the one without original thought now? As for the Hitler comparison its not only weird but distasteful -I'm surprised the site Moderator hasn't given you a Red card.

That would be ridiculous, especially as Balance did not make any comparison to Hitler. Have a proper read.

[justakiwi]

Balance said:


Regurgitating the same garbage & excuses one Labourite after another - like Hitler’s faithful followers used to do.
I think that statement clearly implies a comparison of Jacinda to Hitler. Which was ridiculous, so you got that bit right.


That would be ridiculous, especially as Balance did not make any comparison to Hitler. Have a proper read.

[fungus pudding]

Balance said:

I think that statement clearly implies a comparison of Jacinda to Hitler. Which was ridiculous, so you got that bit right.

The comparison is between someone (?) and Hitler's followers; not Hitler himself. (Post 5407)

[justakiwi]

Not surprising that you would see it that way. People interpret comments differently, based on the perspective they are seeing it from.


The comparison is between someone (?) and Hitler's followers; not Hitler himself. (Post 5407)

[Balance]

The comparison is between someone (?) and Hitler's followers; not Hitler himself. (Post 5407)


That’s the best you can do, boomer?

Pathetic you lot really are - so woke pixie dusted you cannot even have a view of your own?

Regurgitating the same garbage & excuses one Labourite after another - like Hitler’s faithful followers used to do.

Popular does not = good for the country.

Comparison is very clear indeed, fungus pudding

but sadly,

as is often quoted, there is none as blind as those with eyes but will not see and none as misled as those with brains but cannot comprehend!

[fungus pudding]

Not surprising that you would see it that way. People interpret comments differently, based on the perspective they are seeing it from.

Perspective doesn't come into it. It's a clear unambiguous statement. An average level of comprehension is all that is required to understand it. I'm not sure how it could be interpreted differently.

N.B. Just in case you are talking about a different post, here is the unambiguous comment I am talking about.

"Regurgitating the same garbage & excuses one Labourite after another - like Hitler’s faithful followers used to do."

[RupertBear]

The comparison is between someone (?) and Hitler's followers; not Hitler himself. (Post 5407)

Bringing Hitler into the equation in the first place shows a serious lack of judgement IMO. I find any comparison to Hitler and/or Hitlers followers extremely distasteful. This thread has certainly become very toxic and a platform for what is quite frankly bullying behaviour from some posters. I dont need to read this crap and will no longer be following this thread.

[justakiwi]

Well then, I will let someone else attempt to explain it to you because I have a bunch of lovely elderly folk I need to go take care of, who are far more important and deserving of my time than never ending, pointless discussions like this.


Perspective doesn't come into it. It's a clear unambiguous statement. An average level of comprehension is all that is required to understand it. I'm not sure how it could be interpreted differently.

N.B. Just in case you are talking about a different post, here is the unambiguous comment I am talking about.

"Regurgitating the same garbage & excuses one Labourite after another - like Hitler’s faithful followers used to do."

[blackcap]

Bringing Hitler into the equation in the first place shows a serious lack of judgement IMO. I find any comparison to Hitler and/or Hitlers followers extremely distasteful. This thread has certainly become very toxic and a platform for what is quite frankly bullying behaviour from some posters. I dont need to read this crap and will no longer be following this thread.

Awesome, you are exercising your right not to follow this thread. Simple isn't it. Nothing wrong with bringing Hitler into the equation though. If you can't bring Hitler in, you cant bring Stalin in, neither Mao, or Che, or Obama. Does not really make sense to me.

[fungus pudding]

Awesome, you are exercising your right not to follow this thread. Simple isn't it. Nothing wrong with bringing Hitler into the equation though. If you can't bring Hitler in, you cant bring Stalin in, neither Mao, or Che, or Obama. Does not really make sense to me.

.......don't mention the war!

[tim23]

That would be ridiculous, especially as Balance did not make any comparison to Hitler. Have a proper read.

You are wrong on that count Balance did compare with Hitler - distasteful!

[tim23]

Awesome, you are exercising your right not to follow this thread. Simple isn't it. Nothing wrong with bringing Hitler into the equation though. If you can't bring Hitler in, you cant bring Stalin in, neither Mao, or Che, or Obama. Does not really make sense to me.

Oh no - more distaste

[westerly]

I will put up the number of PMs from ST posters here thanking me for my postings on this site vs anyone of you Labourites anytime.

Brave enough, Westerly, to give it a go? Shall we say $1,000 since that’s all you can probably afford?

I agree. There would be far more post-mortem responses to your posts than to any other poster given your subject material.
As for your esoteric knowledge of Hoskings big toe and my financial position -that is weird.

I only bet on horses, an honest animal.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

You are wrong on that count Balance did compare with Hitler - distasteful!
Quote the post.

[RupertBear]

Awesome, you are exercising your right not to follow this thread. Simple isn't it. Nothing wrong with bringing Hitler into the equation though. If you can't bring Hitler in, you cant bring Stalin in, neither Mao, or Che, or Obama. Does not really make sense to me.

Well so much for me not following this thread :rolleyes:

Just thought I should clarify what I meant about bringing Hitler into the equation.

I have no issue with discussions about Hitler, or Stalin or whatever regime, quite the contrary I think it is extremely important we do discuss these things. Lest We Forget. I have spent quite some time studying the Nazi regime and I have also spent time at the Auschwitz Birkenau concentration camps. An experience I will never forget not should I. My issue with Balances post is he COMPARED Labour supporters to Hitler followers. That comparison is distasteful IMO.

And now I really am out of here. :D

[fungus pudding]

Well so much for me not following this thread :rolleyes:

Just thought I should clarify what I meant about bringing Hitler into the equation.

I have no issue with discussions about Hitler, or Stalin or whatever regime, quite the contrary I think it is extremely important we do discuss these things. Lest We Forget. I have spent quite some time studying the Nazi regime and I have also spent time at the Auschwitz Birkenau concentration camps. An experience I will never forget not should I. My issue with Balances post is he COMPARED Labour supporters to Hitler followers. That comparison is distasteful IMO.

And now I really am out of here. :D

Well that got rid of the bear. Hard to believe anyone is that sensitive to a little applied Godwin's law.

[Bjauck]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12352492
'Compassionate': Jacinda Ardern ranked world's most eloquent leader.
Professional development coaches compiled a list of the world's most eloquent leaders and Ardern topped the list after being praised for her empathy.
"Jacinda Ardern employs an empathetic leadership style. She challenges the common perception that emotional communication shows weakness, instead choosing to approach the public with softer touch," the Development Academy wrote.
"She has a measured and authoritative sincerity about her – she is kind and compassionate, without shying away from tough issues."

Three of the leaders named in the top five are women, with German Chancellor Angela Merkel named as the second most eloquent leader, ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in third place and Canada's Justin Trudeau, who was ranked fourth.
Scotland's Prime Minister Nicola Sturgeon was ranked fifth, with praise for her response to the Covid-19 pandemic as well as her humour.

"Jacinda Ardern for example, is a sincere and compassionate speaker, while Nicola Sturgeon is very engaging while demonstrating empathy."
Although there are only around 10% of women in leadership roles worldwide, female leaders make up 50% of the top communicators."
Shocking reporting from the NZ Herald that cannot even copy correctly from the original article. Scotland does not have a Prime Minister as it is not a sovereign state. Scotland’s First Minister is equivalent to an Australian State Premier. So I question the validity of this list of “world” leaders that mixes a local leader with national leaders. This is a British interests centric list with Germany playing a particularly pivotal role for the UK at the moment as it completes its retreat from the EU.

[justakiwi]

Hitler was responsible for the murder of millions of Jews. Ordinary people just like you and I. Anyone who isn’t sensitive about that, is the one with the problem.


Well that got rid of the bear. Hard to believe anyone is that sensitive to a little applied Godwin's law.

[Bjauck]

.......don't mention the war!
LOL. Is Basil Fawlty posting on this thread?

Labour in the UK had trouble with anti-semitism. Their previous leader was a keen supporter of Palestine.

[Balance]

Well that got rid of the bear. Hard to believe anyone is that sensitive to a little applied Godwin's law.

Thanks, fungus pudding - first time I hear of the term so it's true we can learn something new everyday!

[moka]

Well that got rid of the bear. Hard to believe anyone is that sensitive to a little applied Godwin's law.
I agree with RupertBear that the comparison with Hitler is distasteful. It is also lazy, and not relevant.

Mike Godwin, for his part, has asserted that Hitler comparisons tend to be lazy in a debate. “I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust.” That said, Godwin stipulates that he doesn’t think Hitler comparisons should always be off the table, just that their relevance should be considered carefully. He wrote, “If you’re thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler or Nazis when you talk about Trump. Or any other politician.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/memes/godwins-law/

[moka]

Some words of wisdom about having conversations with people you disagree with. Bring on the intellectual debate.

https://www.maxim.org.nz/justice-open-debate/ (https://www.maxim.org.nz/justice-open-debate/)
We need to be brave enough to agree with the ideas of people we regularly disagree with on other issues. We could even learn to have conversations about the issues we disagree on. The conversation will likely end with both people holding their original position and that’s okay. What’s important is that everyone leaves with a deeper understanding of the person they disagree with and why they disagreed in the first place.
While that’s easier said than done, it’s incredibly important for the functioning of society. In fact, without healthy disagreements, strong societal divisions are much more likely to arise. The Coddling of the American Mind, by Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianoff, confronts this very issue. They suggest that having conversations with people you disagree with are essential for building resilience and learning to adapt and grow. Of course, this doesn’t mean that anything goes. Bullying is never okay. But there’s a difference between bullying and thorough intellectual debate.

[Balance]

Comrade Cindy’s hypocrisy on full display :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122308433/andrea-vance-why-jacinda-ardern-wont-delete-her-facebook-account

“But she won’t be deleting her account because it wouldn’t be expedient, especially in an election year.“

As cynical as you can get from a ‘leader’.

[tim23]

Comrade Cindy’s hypocrisy on full display :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122308433/andrea-vance-why-jacinda-ardern-wont-delete-her-facebook-account

“But she won’t be deleting her account because it wouldn’t be expedient, especially in an election year.“

As cynical as you can get from a ‘leader’.

I see you got to pager 43 of the Sunday Star Times but you conveniently omit the article on the opinion polls on page 21 and I think that article is way more telling for the Nats - they're pretty much stuffed for this election.

[moka]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300066310/national-party-plummets-even-further-in-lastest-major-political-poll?rm=a
A good chart in this article that shows how the four political parties have fared in Newshub/Reid Research polls since 2008. It clearly shows how Labour’s popularity increased three years ago when Jacinda became leader of the Labour Party.
A picture is worth a thousand words.

[RupertBear]

Well that got rid of the bear. Hard to believe anyone is that sensitive to a little applied Godwin's law.

Haaaa WRONG The Bear is back! On reflection and after receiving positive feedback encouraging me to stay on board I am back :) I just wont be feeding any trolls :D

[justakiwi]

:t_up::t_up::t_up:


Haaaa WRONG The Bear is back! On reflection and after receiving positive feedback encouraging me to stay on board I am back :) I just wont be feeding any trolls :D

[moka]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122310902/election-2020-how-do-you-run-against-elimination (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122310902/election-2020-how-do-you-run-against-elimination)
Since the late 1990s political purists in New Zealand have bemoaned the fact that the two major political parties are too similar. Both have bought into the “neo-liberalism” of Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson and have just been making adjustments in one direction or another, so the rather boring arguments went.

Now, for the first time in almost three decades, there will be a stark ideological choice at this election around the role of the state. Labour, on the one hand, is battling to retain its basically technocratic and fiscally prudent formula of the Clark years. However, it appears ready and willing to seriously crank up the overall level of government spending and activity.
Fiscal prudence and high levels of spending can co-exist, but they require high taxes that tend to drag on economic growth. Labour definitely has faith that, in a post-Covid era, the state can be put back into the centre of economic co-ordination. Not a command economy, mind you, but one where Labour thinks that ‘’market failures’’ can be comfortably corrected.

National, on the other hand, is developing a full-throated centre-right agenda of lower taxes, deregulation, and a plan to let the animal spirits of economic growth unleash to kick-start the economy. That will be backed up by massive infrastructure spending on road, bus lanes and rail, mostly in the north from Hamilton to Auckland and its surrounds, and various sorts of Covid business support.
There is a real choice. And, as with the first Labour Government under Michael Joseph Savage elected during the Depression, on current polling there will likely be an opportunity for this Labour Government to institute its vision. Make no mistake, Labour is on track to win a clear majority.

[Zaphod]

I'm not convinced people are actually considering policy all that much. The swing voters I've (carefully) spoken to in the course of business, have indicated that they like Jacinda, and that they feel safe. When I've raised policy, shoulders are shrugged. That's really disappointing.

[justakiwi]

As a swinging voter, I look for/need both. Policy I believe in, that aligns with my personal values, and a party leader I like and trust (as much as one can ever trust any politician). National has not been able to provide me with any of that, for at least the last 10 years. Labour has not been perfect (who is?) but in a two party system, they have been the better option, for me.

I am always open to change, but at this point in time I see nothing ​in National’s policy or leadership that would earn my vote.


I'm not convinced people are actually considering policy all that much. The swing voters I've (carefully) spoken to in the course of business, have indicated that they like Jacinda, and that they feel safe. When I've raised policy, shoulders are shrugged. That's really disappointing.

[Balance]

There but for the vigilance of NZers, the whistle blowers, Woodhouse and the grace of whichever religion you may or not follow, NZ would have gone the same way as Victoria due to the first 2 months of disgracefully incompetent & uncontrolled quarantine shambles & mess in NZ.

https://www.news.com.au/national/vic...54350f4388397a

Excerpt : "Victoria’s descent into a new wave of infections started amid a scandal over quarantine and security breaches in a series of Melbourne hotels.
Last month, Melbourne’s quarantine hotels were identified as a key source behind the virus’s terrifying escalation throughout the state."

[Balance]

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/rest-home...abd9f-97843407

Rest homes proactively taking steps to protect their residents rebuked by Ministry of Health.

This is NZ today under Comrade Cindy’s bunch of incompetents - Nanny state knows best so just you listen and obey the incompetents.

We know the rest homes were right and Comrade Cindy & her incompetents with the MOH could not even run a quarantine system properly without endangering all NZers through their gross incompetence.

[dobby41]

There but for the vigilance of NZers, the whistle blowers, Woodhouse and the grace of whichever religion you may or not follow, NZ would have gone the same way as Victoria due to our first 2 months of quarantine shambles & mess.

What a silly statement.
We didn't go the way of Vic because we did it better.
QLD did it better, as did WA and others.
I understand how you like to think Woodhouse saved the day but that just isn't true and you repeating it ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

[iceman]

I'm not convinced people are actually considering policy all that much. The swing voters I've (carefully) spoken to in the course of business, have indicated that they like Jacinda, and that they feel safe. When I've raised policy, shoulders are shrugged. That's really disappointing.

Agree and think it is quite sad that we are not seeing any real policy debates so far and Labour seems hellbent on avoiding it, which makes sense for them politically. Not so much for NZ. Have to say though that Minister Sepuloni and National's Louise Upston debating social welfare policy on weekend TV was refreshing and showed clear differences. But as you say, I don't think people are tuned in at the moment.

[Balance]

What a silly statement.
We didn't go the way of Vic because we did it better.
QLD did it better, as did WA and others.
I understand how you like to think Woodhouse saved the day but that just isn't true and you repeating it ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

If the quarantine mess here was not highlighted (well documented which is why David Clark was 'fired') & fixed - we would unquestionably be having the communal spread out there now.

Why do you think NZers were so cheesed off with the government?

[Joshuatree]

Haaaa WRONG The Bear is back! On reflection and after receiving positive feedback encouraging me to stay on board I am back :) I just wont be feeding any trolls :D

Thats it starve it until it shrivels up.

Dont feed the troll its like putting out fire with gasoline.This behaviour has been going on for years, This troll craves attention (fuel) and will stop at nothing to get its feed.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12353102

A government without any major policies to announce for this election - because those without myopic glasses know that Comrade Cindy cannot point out any major policy successes from the huge promises made last election to hoodwink voters.

Well, NZers are going to find out the devastating way that their future generations are going to pay big time for the current generation of society’s losers being led towards the cliff and towards doom.

Those of us in the know will do very well from the free spending underway - just make sure you maximise whatever you can make for your own future generations.

[tim23]

If the quarantine mess here was not highlighted (well documented which is why David Clark was 'fired') & fixed - we would unquestionably be having the communal spread out there now.

Why do you think NZers were so cheesed off with the government?

Hardly cheesed off - check the latest opinion polls government is quite popular or did you conveniently forget that?

[Balance]

Hardly cheesed off - check the latest opinion polls government is quite popular or did you conveniently forget that?

We are talking quarantine.

Why do you think Comrade Cindy sacrificed David Clark to appease the anger out there?

Again, history shows us popular does not necessarily = good for the country.

Hitler was extremely popular and where did it led to?

[justakiwi]

Deleted.......

[dobby41]

We are talking quarantine.

Why do you think Comrade Cindy sacrificed David Clark to appease the anger out there?


I thought he left because of his judgement errors during lockdown and he 'had a go' at Ashley.
He resigned because the braying from media was becoming a distraction for all.
Maybe you have some inside knowledge or hope to make things up to suit your narrative (not for the 1st time).

[Balance]

I thought he left because of his judgement errors during lockdown and he 'had a go' at Ashley.
He resigned because the braying from media was becoming a distraction for all.
Maybe you have some inside knowledge or hope to make things up to suit your narrative (not for the 1st time).

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-07-2020/david-clark-takes-one-for-the-team-and-resigns-as-health-minister/

Read and learn.

[dobby41]

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-07-2020/david-clark-takes-one-for-the-team-and-resigns-as-health-minister/

Read and learn.

Just what I said :t_up:

[Balance]

Just what I said :t_up:

Good boy! You can be taught! 🤓

Now read this :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12345138

[dobby41]

Good boy! You can be taught! ��

Now read this :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12345138

And you can comprehend if nosed in the right direction.
Nice opinion piece but it is just that - opinion.

[Balance]

And you can comprehend if nosed in the right direction.
Nice opinion piece but it is just that - opinion.

LOL - notice how Comrade Cindy could not bring herself to front up at her MOH ‘resignation’ ? Can’t afford to have the stench of quarantine mess get into her cynical little nostrils, see?

[dobby41]

LOL - notice how Comrade Cindy could not bring herself to front up at her MOH ‘resignation’ ? Can’t afford to have the stench of quarantine mess get into her cynical little nostrils, see?

Slow day - dredging back quite a few weeks here?
Get over it - it will be better for your mental health.
I, an others, are concerned for you.

[Balance]

Slow day - dredging back quite a few weeks here?
Get over it - it will be better for your mental health.
I, an others, are concerned for you.

Losing your train of thought and sequence of events, old chap?

Quarantine mess = disaster in Victoria

Quarantine mess = could have been disastrous for NZ but for whistle blowers & Woodhouse

Quarantine mess = David Clark fired

[dobby41]

Losing your train of thought and sequence of events, old chap?

Quarantine mess = disaster in Victoria

Quarantine mess = could have been disastrous for NZ but for whistle blowers & Woodhouse

Quarantine mess = David Clark fired

Did I even mention the sequence of events?
But I would have thought it was more like

Lockdown = you harp on that we should follow Aussie (they now have twice the death rate and similar economic impact)

Quarantine mess = disaster in Victoria

Lockdown mistakes = we learn from our failures quickly (but can't find the elusive homeless man = wasted time and effort looking)

Media noise = David Clark resigns.

If you have evidence that Clark was fired (and opinion pieces never were evidence) please share.

Please take care of your mental health. Maybe lay off the posting for a while.

[Balance]

Did I even mention the sequence of events?
But I would have thought it was more like

Lockdown = you harp on that we should follow Aussie (they now have twice the death rate and similar economic impact)

Quarantine mess = disaster in Victoria

Lockdown mistakes = we learn from our failures quickly (but can't find the elusive homeless man = wasted time and effort looking)

Media noise = David Clark resigns.

If you have evidence that Clark was fired (and opinion pieces never were evidence) please share.

Please take care of your mental health. Maybe lay off the posting for a while.

Same regurgitated garbage from the bull dust PR bull horn of Comrade Cindy.

Only a truth denier & brainwashed donkey would believe David Clark resigned. 🤣

And yes, but for their quarantine debacle (well documented) Australia was doing much better than NZ. You obviously have not heard of WA, NT, SA & Queensland as well?

But for Woodhouse blowing the quarantine mess and disaster here, NZ would be where Victoria is now. Again, well documented fortunately.

So quickly the Labourites want to rewrite history. Imagine if they are not fact checked!

Breaking News : Kiwibuild achieved milestone promised by Comrade Cindy. 400 homes built - far in excess of the 160 promised by Phil Twyford. 🤣

[RupertBear]

Thats it starve it until it shrivels up.

Dont feed the troll its like putting out fire with gasoline.This behaviour has been going on for years, This troll craves attention (fuel) and will stop at nothing to get its feed.

People with Narcissistic Personality Disorders crave attention, any attention, either good or bad is better than no attention. So you are quite right JT Dont feed the troll. Ignore the troll :t_up:

[RupertBear]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122310902/election-2020-how-do-you-run-against-elimination (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122310902/election-2020-how-do-you-run-against-elimination)
Since the late 1990s political purists in New Zealand have bemoaned the fact that the two major political parties are too similar. Both have bought into the “neo-liberalism” of Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson and have just been making adjustments in one direction or another, so the rather boring arguments went.

Now, for the first time in almost three decades, there will be a stark ideological choice at this election around the role of the state. Labour, on the one hand, is battling to retain its basically technocratic and fiscally prudent formula of the Clark years. However, it appears ready and willing to seriously crank up the overall level of government spending and activity.
Fiscal prudence and high levels of spending can co-exist, but they require high taxes that tend to drag on economic growth. Labour definitely has faith that, in a post-Covid era, the state can be put back into the centre of economic co-ordination. Not a command economy, mind you, but one where Labour thinks that ‘’market failures’’ can be comfortably corrected.

National, on the other hand, is developing a full-throated centre-right agenda of lower taxes, deregulation, and a plan to let the animal spirits of economic growth unleash to kick-start the economy. That will be backed up by massive infrastructure spending on road, bus lanes and rail, mostly in the north from Hamilton to Auckland and its surrounds, and various sorts of Covid business support.
There is a real choice. And, as with the first Labour Government under Michael Joseph Savage elected during the Depression, on current polling there will likely be an opportunity for this Labour Government to institute its vision. Make no mistake, Labour is on track to win a clear majority.

Excellent post thanks Moka

[dobby41]

People with Narcissistic Personality Disorders crave attention, any attention, either good or bad is better than no attention. So you are quite right JT Dont feed the troll. Ignore the troll :t_up:

OK - I'll try.
Doesn't do his mental health any good either and I don't want to be responsible for speeding his demise.

[RupertBear]

OK - I'll try.
Doesn't do his mental health any good either and I don't want to be responsible for speeding his demise.

He is the one responsible for speeding his own demise although I am sure he will claim his mental health is perfect in fact he probably has the best mental health of anyone in the world :D

[moka]

OK - I'll try.
Doesn't do his mental health any good either and I don't want to be responsible for speeding his demise.
dobby41 I don’t think that you feed the troll. Your posts have a moderating influence. Ignoring the troll is not always a good strategy.
It is a lie that trolling is harmless.

The core intent of trolling is not just to provoke, but to run away from the responsibility of the comment itself.
Defenders of trolling insist it’s all just a joke, but if trolling is inherently designed to get a rise out of someone, then that’s what it really is. Whether you believe what you are saying or not is often immaterial because the impact is the same — and you are responsible for it, regardless of how funny you think it is.

Ignoring harassment does not stop it. The harasser keeps pushing and pushing to get the reaction they want with even more tenacity and intensity. It’s the same pattern with abusers and stalkers, both online and off, they escalate to more dangerous and threatening behaviour when they feel like they are being ignored. In many cases, ignoring a troll can carry just as dear a price as provocation.

Ignoring trolls functions as a kind of tacit permission, and it also ignores the inherent threat of the troll’s true intent.
What the troll, the stalker, and the abuser really want out of the situation is to feel powerful and in control. And they will not stop until they feel it.

“Don’t feed the trolls” also ignores an obvious method for addressing online abuse: skilled moderation and the willingness to kick people off platforms for violating rules about abuse.
People troll because deep down they know it’s serious, and that’s exactly why it makes them feel powerful.
Ultimately, if we care about abuse, we have to care more about the people they hurt.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122327028/tick-tick-podcast-survey-shows-powerful-polarisation-along-party-lines

Polarisation of opinions.

[moka]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122327028/tick-tick-podcast-survey-shows-powerful-polarisation-along-party-lines

Polarisation of opinions.
The article shows that just like here on Sharetrader whether you think the government has done a good job with Covid-19 depends more on which political party you support than on objectively assessing the response.

Survey shows powerful polarisation along party lines.
The survey showed political leanings were influencing attitudes about doctors’ handling of Covid-19.
Asked how good a job medical professions have done in controlling the spread of the disease, responses showed there was a difference depending on party preference.
Amongst Labour supporters, 96 per cent agreed medical professionals have done a good job. But for National supporters, the figure was 69 per cent.
The difference was even starker when asked if the Government’s overall response was successful.
Almost 98 per cent of Labour supporters said the response was successful, but for National supporters it was only 40 per cent.

[RupertBear]

dobby41 I don’t think that you feed the troll. Your posts have a moderating influence. Ignoring the troll is not always a good strategy.
It is a lie that trolling is harmless.

The core intent of trolling is not just to provoke, but to run away from the responsibility of the comment itself.
Defenders of trolling insist it’s all just a joke, but if trolling is inherently designed to get a rise out of someone, then that’s what it really is. Whether you believe what you are saying or not is often immaterial because the impact is the same — and you are responsible for it, regardless of how funny you think it is.

Ignoring harassment does not stop it. The harasser keeps pushing and pushing to get the reaction they want with even more tenacity and intensity. It’s the same pattern with abusers and stalkers, both online and off, they escalate to more dangerous and threatening behaviour when they feel like they are being ignored. In many cases, ignoring a troll can carry just as dear a price as provocation.

Ignoring trolls functions as a kind of tacit permission, and it also ignores the inherent threat of the troll’s true intent.
What the troll, the stalker, and the abuser really want out of the situation is to feel powerful and in control. And they will not stop until they feel it.

“Don’t feed the trolls” also ignores an obvious method for addressing online abuse: skilled moderation and the willingness to kick people off platforms for violating rules about abuse.
People troll because deep down they know it’s serious, and that’s exactly why it makes them feel powerful.
Ultimately, if we care about abuse, we have to care more about the people they hurt.

well said Moka

[justakiwi]

Which is why Balance has not responded to my “ridiculous” post.

There is no power to be gained by having a respectful, mature discussion and responding to my questions. He gets more power from winding people up, creating drama, and frustrating people to the point where they choose to leave ST for their own well-being, than he ever will by fronting up and telling me what he actually wants from government.

My post wasn’t ridiculous. It proved my point.




What the troll, the stalker, and the abuser really want out of the situation is to feel powerful and in control. And they will not stop until they feel it.

[jonu]

At the risk of being labelled a troll for not towing the Party Line....have a read of the following. You might see why the likes of Balance and myself are so suspicious of what agenda Ardern maybe sitting on or be railroaded into. Her recent declaration saying don't expect too much in the way of Policy, says two things.

Either they are bereft of ideas....or they will pull a David Lange and come in with a hidden agenda and foist it on the population post election.


https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/08/04/jacinda-panics-as-she-realises-labour-are-snookered-into-actually-doing-something/

Yes, I appreciate it is by Martyn Bradbury who is left of left, but get ready for "Woke Central" if Cindy is re-elected.

[Zaphod]

As a swinging voter, I look for/need both. Policy I believe in, that aligns with my personal values, and a party leader I like and trust (as much as one can ever trust any politician). National has not been able to provide me with any of that, for at least the last 10 years. Labour has not been perfect (who is?) but in a two party system, they have been the better option, for me.

I am always open to change, but at this point in time I see nothing ​in National’s policy or leadership that would earn my vote.

It’s pleasing to hear people are thinking about the substantive issues, and not just the fluff that gets jammed down our throat 24x7.
The NZ political scene has, at least in my view, been rendered very centrist over the last few decades, and rather boring compared to other democracies. That latter point may be a good thing!

[RupertBear]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122344543/sketch-by-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-to-raise-money-for-charity-up-for-auction (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122344543/sketch-by-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-to-raise-money-for-charity-up-for-auction)

WOW up to $14,000 already! Thats awesome :)

[iceman]

It's now official from the Auditor General that the PGF is nothing but a political slush fund. In most countries this would be called corruption:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122347796/election-2020-auditorgeneral-takes-provincial-growth-funds-fund-within-a-fund-to-task

[Bjauck]

It's now official from the Auditor General that the PGF is nothing but a political slush fund. In most countries this would be called corruption:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122347796/election-2020-auditorgeneral-takes-provincial-growth-funds-fund-within-a-fund-to-task
Yep. It should be renamed as the Shameless PBF - Pork Barrel Fund

https://cup.columbia.edu/book/pork-barrel-politics/9780231193597

[dobby41]

Yep. It should be renamed as the Shameless PBF - Pork Barrel Fund


Always was a bit of a PBF - not all bad but not all good either.

[fungus pudding]

Always was a bit of a PBF - not all bad but not all good either.

Not so. It is all bad.

[dobby41]

Not so. It is all bad.

We'll just have to disagree.

[dobby41]

It has been suggested by many that Labour is installing fear of covid to get them across the line.
It seems that Dr Skegg agrees that we should be less complacent.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122337409/coronavirus-nz-could-end-up-like-melbourne-experts-warn

A large Covid-19 outbreak would overwhelm contact tracing systems and force the country into lockdown, experts warn.

Epidemiologist Sir David Skegg says it is “almost inevitable” Covid-19 will reappear in the community, while a failure to act quickly could see New Zealand in the same situation as the Australian state of Victoria.

[iceman]

It has been suggested by many that Labour is installing fear of covid to get them across the line.
It seems that Dr Skegg agrees that we should be less complacent.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122337409/coronavirus-nz-could-end-up-like-melbourne-experts-warn

But suggesting Labour wants to run an election campaign on fear mongering only, doesn't mean people are suggesting complacency. Only that there should be more issues to consider during the election campaign than COVID.

[dobby41]

But suggesting Labour wants to run an election campaign on fear mongering only, doesn't mean people are suggesting complacency. Only that there should be more issues to consider during the election campaign than COVID.

What I was saying was Labour pointing out that there is still a pandemic out there isn't trying to campaign on fear - it is a reality.
And, yes, there are more issues out there but the main one, for the moment, is our economic recovery.

Unemployment down to 4.0%?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122338348/official-unemployment-falls-to-4-in-june-quarter
This bit may be closer to the mark (and the subsidies haven't all come off yet)

Stats NZ estimated unemployment had risen to 6.2 per cent during the final week of June, but it said that weekly figure was based on a small interview sample of just 500 people.
The drop in official unemployment for the quarter also resulted from a larger decline in the number of New Zealanders looking for work.

[iceman]

Unemployment rate is only part of the statistics, held down by wage subsidies and some other statistics. Here are some seriously worrying numbers from the Stats NZ figures:

Hours worked were down by over 10% – another record.
The number of people classified as "not in the labour force" rose 37,000
And the number of employed people fell 11,000.
The employment rate fell to 66.9% from 67.5%.
The labour force participation rate fell to 69.7% from a revised 70.5%.

[iceman]

John Key has just told the conference in Auckland that about a quarter of ANZ's customers have had 20% or more reduction in their incomes and 10% have had their income reduced to zero. Scary numbers.

[moka]

It's now official from the Auditor General that the PGF is nothing but a political slush fund. In most countries this would be called corruption:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122347796/election-2020-auditorgeneral-takes-provincial-growth-funds-fund-within-a-fund-to-task
The Auditor General did not say it was a slush fund.
The article said “This has led political opponents of the fund to label it a “slush fund” designed to buy NZ First votes in the regions.”

It is not working as a slush fund to buy NZ First votes judging by the polls, so the NZ public are not as gullible as some make out. Lots of good small projects in the provinces have been supported by the PGF rather than the usual spending focused on the large cities and smaller centres miss out.

[fungus pudding]

The Auditor General did not say it was a slush fund.
The article said “This has led political opponents of the fund to label it a “slush fund” designed to buy NZ First votes in the regions.”

It is not working as a slush fund to buy NZ First votes judging by the polls, so the NZ public are not as gullible as some make out. Lots of good small projects in the provinces have been supported by the PGF rather than the usual spending focused on the large cities and smaller centres miss out.

He certainly did without using that precise term. It's ridiculous that this fund is under the control of one party of a coalition.

[iceman]

He certainly did without using that precise term. It's ridiculous that this fund is under the control of one party of a coalition.
moka is normally quite sensible with his/her comments so I'm not sure whats happening here with the silly defense of the slush fund and the related corruption . surprised !

[moka]

Very good speech from Clare Curran, not easy being an MP. Iceman please note that she thanked Trevor Mallard and said he could do better with practicing kindness and consistency.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300074014/clare-currans-final-speech-takes-aim-at-news-media-and-sick-political-system
Outgoing Labour MP Clare Curran described the political system as “sick” in her final speech to Parliament, and directly criticised the media.
The former broadcasting minister said politicians deserved to be held to account but not treated as “prey” by reporters who acted as if they were unaccountable themselves.
“You are not unaccountable though you act like you are. You are neither judge nor jury. To be credible you must turn the mirror on yourself.”
She said that at one point during her fall from power in 2018 she felt suicidal, but instead sought mental health support.
Curran’s speech acknowledged that she had made some mistakes over her 12 years in Parliament, which had seen her “demoted and promoted too many times to count.”
”Mine has not been an easy ride...I made mistakes, I paid a price, I was targeted.”
Curran said the wider political system was “sick” and suggested the news media had a large role to play in this.
Our political system is sick, and we all know it,” Curran said.
”Politicians and the news media focus on conflict. The objective is to catch people out and take them down.”

[Blue Skies]

Very good speech from Clare Curran, not easy being an MP. Iceman please note that she thanked Trevor Mallard and said he could do better with practicing kindness and consistency.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300074014/clare-currans-final-speech-takes-aim-at-news-media-and-sick-political-system
Outgoing Labour MP Clare Curran described the political system as “sick” in her final speech to Parliament, and directly criticised the media.
The former broadcasting minister said politicians deserved to be held to account but not treated as “prey” by reporters who acted as if they were unaccountable themselves.
“You are not unaccountable though you act like you are. You are neither judge nor jury. To be credible you must turn the mirror on yourself.”
She said that at one point during her fall from power in 2018 she felt suicidal, but instead sought mental health support.
Curran’s speech acknowledged that she had made some mistakes over her 12 years in Parliament, which had seen her “demoted and promoted too many times to count.”
”Mine has not been an easy ride...I made mistakes, I paid a price, I was targeted.”
Curran said the wider political system was “sick” and suggested the news media had a large role to play in this.
Our political system is sick, and we all know it,” Curran said.
”Politicians and the news media focus on conflict. The objective is to catch people out and take them down.”



Yes the ghastly way she was targeted & treated by the opposition & in particular Melissa Lee was despicable.
As JLR said, they set out to destroy her personally (not her policies or arguments ) & when everyone could see she was down & in an extremely fragile state & vulnerable, instead of easing up Melissa Lee kept right on putting the boot in.
It was awful to watch & I think a man would not have been treated with the same level of nastiness, certainly Todd Muller wasn't thank goodness.
I could never have any respect for Melissa Lee after that.

There was also the National MP who had the affair with JLR, who was treated appallingly by the media.

[iceman]

I think Parliament and all political parties, the media and the public, should really take a good hard look at ourselves. There has been a common thread in many of the valedictory speeches about a bullying and unforgiving culture. It has clearly taken a terrible toll personally on many of those MPs and their families.
Clearly the system needs a change and the media in my view has a lot to answer for.

[Balance]

Yes the ghastly way she was targeted & treated by the opposition & in particular Sandra Lee was despicable.
As JLR said, they set out to destroy her personally (not her policies or arguments ) & when everyone could see she was down & in an extremely fragile state & vulnerable, instead of easing up Sandra Lee kept right on putting the boot in.
It was awful to watch & I think a man would not have been treated with the same level of nastiness, certainly Todd Muller wasn't thank goodness.
I could never have any respect for Sandra Lee after that.

There was also the National MP who had the affair with JLR, who was treated appallingly by the media.

JLR? Hypocrisy & deceit on a grand scale for this predator to express any kind of concern for anyone. And a proven pathological liar & manipulator.

And get your facts right - who is Sandra Lee?

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/questions-left-unanswered-curran-no-show

Question - why was Clare Curran sacked from cabinet?

[Balance]

Labour’s plan is to win the election at all costs by politicising the border and keeping New Zealanders in a state of fear.

It’s putting politics above people by locking the border and wrecking the economy and ramping up Covid-19 propaganda to keep New Zealanders in a state of fear until September 19.

Meanwhile, two former Prime Ministers have backed ACT’s plan to safely reconnect with the world.

John Key and Helen Clark have called on the Government to allow students and skilled workers into the country, expand managed isolation and quarantine facilities by setting clear rules for the private sector, and establish travel bubbles with Covid-free countries.

Clark acknowledged the reason why we’re not having an honest conversation about the border: it’s election year and politicians are paralysed.

Key and Clark are no longer trying to get elected, so they’re saying what only ACT has had the courage to say in the political arena: the current strategy may be comfortable, but it is not sustainable. We can’t continue to hose money at businesses while we slowly go broke.

The Government wants New Zealanders believe that there are only two options: dead or dead broke. But there are more options than locking down the border and slowly going broke, or open slather and people dying. We must find the intelligent space in between.

Now that we’ve worked out how to separate passengers coming from different countries at the airport, there’s no reason why we can’t establish travel bubbles with Covid-free countries.

If we can safely quarantine New Zealand citizens, why not students and skilled workers?

A smart, innovative government would set up a regulatory framework for the private provision of managed isolation.

The world has changed, but the Government has failed to change with it. We risk wrecking the economy unless the Government begins safely reconnecting with the world.