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artemis
06-08-2020, 07:35 AM
I think Parliament and all political parties, the media and the public, should really take a good hard look at ourselves. There has been a common thread in many of the valedictory speeches about a bullying and unforgiving culture. It has clearly taken a terrible toll personally on many of those MPs and their families.
Clearly the system needs a change and the media in my view has a lot to answer for.

Don't disagree but toxicity in organisations is common. Some make it to the media spotlight, most don't and people just leave.

MPs know they are going to be operating in a cut-and-thrust fishbowl. They are educated and experienced, usually, and are in a good position to manage their public profile effectively. They are also our lawmakers. If their behaviour attracts publicity that might be good or bad. If it is bad, they and their parties should be asking why very quickly.

Not a lot of sympathy from me for MPs who blot their copybooks and then have to deal with the fallout.

macduffy
06-08-2020, 08:49 AM
Don't disagree but toxicity in organisations is common. Some make it to the media spotlight, most don't and people just leave.

MPs know they are going to be operating in a cut-and-thrust fishbowl. They are educated and experienced, usually, and are in a good position to manage their public profile effectively. They are also our lawmakers. If their behaviour attracts publicity that might be good or bad. If it is bad, they and their parties should be asking why very quickly.

Not a lot of sympathy from me for MPs who blot their copybooks and then have to deal with the fallout.

I agree with that. A lot of retiring politicians' valedictories focus on other people's faults, rather than their own mistakes. Human nature, I guess.
;)

Balance
06-08-2020, 01:58 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12354179

Manipulating jobless and unemployment numbers for the Sept election - using the wage subsidy.

And like the magician mesmerising the audience with the skimpy dressed lady, the unquestioning moronic voters are fooled.

jonu
06-08-2020, 04:10 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12354179

Manipulating jobless and unemployment numbers for the Sept election - using the wage subsidy.

And like the magician mesmerising the audience with the skimpy dressed lady, the unquestioning moronic voters are fooled.

To give him credit....Barry Soper has seen through Ardern from the outset. The old dog has been round the traps long enough to smell B/S from aways off. I remember catching an almost off camera eye-roll early days as the Cynical One dodged a question.

Geez I worry what we're going to get if it's just her alone post election. (deliberate wording). I don't think there is anyone capable of developing decent policy in her administration. She has already primed us for no meaningful policy pre-election. Imagine the crap that will flow after!

iceman
06-08-2020, 05:31 PM
I have been trying to educate myself on the 2 referendum issues we are being asked to vote on in September. I have an open mind on both issues and just want some informative data.
Seeing this from my local MP today frustrates me Clearly once again Jacinda and her Government are being very cynical and manipulative. Very frustrating.

“ Questioned Govt today on their besmirching of Professor Fischer’s reputation over his Medical Journal article on cannabis referendum.

Professor said information to electors contains “inflated and unrealistic political promises.”

Minister of Justice Andrew Little bagged the Medical Journal article saying it was “not based on science”. The Minister absented himself from being accountable for his unfair slur on this significant last day of Parliament before the vote.

Fischer is the Chair of Addiction Research at Auckland University Faculty of Medical and Health Sciences. The public should be concerned that info is viewed as misleading by such experts.

The brochure contains all the arguments for legalisation but none of the arguments against. Claims of “eliminating the illegal supply of cannabis” are not credible when overseas experience shows black markets still thrive.

Significantly, the info campaign is being run by the Ministry of Justice ( which must follow directions of govt ).For all previous referendum, info has come from the Electoral Commission or an Independent Panel.

Voters should note the very different tone of advice from the Electoral Commission on party and electorate vote that is neutral and referendum info that leads voters with all the benefits of proposals.

Voters should also note that the Euthanasia law has been through a full parliamentary process, whereas legalisation of cannabis is only a draft bill.

Beware of this stitch up. Govt is doing everything it can to get cannabis legalised and to bully those who question the plan.
https://vimeo.com/445094625“

Jay
06-08-2020, 07:14 PM
I have heard the argument that it is a lesser evil than alcohol and that rebutted with the analogy of would you then rather be run over by a bus or a truck!

Balance
06-08-2020, 07:45 PM
JLR? Hypocrisy & deceit on a grand scale for this predator to express any kind of concern for anyone. And a proven pathological liar & predator.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/422918/high-court-blocks-jami-lee-ross-from-publishing-sensitive-documents

Scumbag JLR trying to use sensitive information sent to him as part of the court document & discovery process to score political points.

Balance
06-08-2020, 09:31 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/08/sir-john-key-says-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-disinterested-in-post-covid-19-economy.html

Sir John Key says Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern disinterested in post-COVID-19 economy

Former Prime Minister Sir John Key says while Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern communicates well she is disinterested in the economy.

In an interview with John Banks on Magic Talk on Thursday Key said the Government is "fundamentally distrustful" of the private sector and Ardern lacks passion for the economy.

"I don't know whether the economy is her big thing really," he said.

"I don't know if she's terribly interested in all that stuff."

He also accused the Government of "not listening" to economic professionals.

"They're listening to the health professionals but not the economic ones," he said.

Despite his disappointment with Ardern's perceived lack of economic passion Key admitted her communication skills are impressive.

In other words, Cindy is your typical con-artist, gift of the gab but no substance.

RGR367
07-08-2020, 08:08 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300076205/election-2020-what-the-goverment-got-done-and-what-it-didnt

I rate the gov't barely passed. But for communications and feel good incentives, I'm giving it an "A" grade. My party vote is to be decided still.

Blue Skies
07-08-2020, 10:55 AM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/08/sir-john-key-says-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-disinterested-in-post-covid-19-economy.html

Sir John Key says Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern disinterested in post-COVID-19 economy

Former Prime Minister Sir John Key says while Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern communicates well she is disinterested in the economy.

In an interview with John Banks on Magic Talk on Thursday Key said the Government is "fundamentally distrustful" of the private sector and Ardern lacks passion for the economy.

"I don't know whether the economy is her big thing really," he said.

"I don't know if she's terribly interested in all that stuff."

He also accused the Government of "not listening" to economic professionals.

"They're listening to the health professionals but not the economic ones," he said.

Despite his disappointment with Ardern's perceived lack of economic passion Key admitted her communication skills are impressive.

In other words, Cindy is your typical con-artist, gift of the gab but no substance.




Ha, load of insubstantial waffle, obviously not true, from John & National's new strategy to use ex politicians like Key to try & get some hits on Jacinda Adern.

The economic catastrophe National were counting on & was supposed too have arrived immediately post lockdown, hasn't happened yet.

The economy was going gang busters prior to the Covid pandemic, thank you Grant Robertson, & things are going much better now than most banking economists expected.

Balance
07-08-2020, 11:41 AM
Deleted deleted

Blue Skies
07-08-2020, 11:50 AM
Someone was reminding me of that unfortunate business around the dodgy expenses claims & lack of integrity by the CEO & the ANZ being caught out ripping off its customers with unwanted products while John Key was Chairman.

Most unfortunate business that & possibly in some way connected with why so many people think John Key's advice to be taken with a grain of salt & not the best person to be giving advice about what's best for NZ for them.

iceman
07-08-2020, 11:56 AM
Someone was reminding me of that unfortunate business around the dodgy expenses claims & lack of integrity by the CEO & the ANZ being caught out ripping off its customers with unwanted products while John Key was Chairman.

Most unfortunate business that & possibly in some way connected with why so many people think John Key's advice to be taken with a grain of salt & not the best person to be giving advice about what's best for NZ for them.

At the Auckland conference a couple of days ago, Helen Clark was saying pretty much the same things needed to be done as John Key did. Of course she wasn't directly critical of her protege but agreed that the current situation is unsustainable economically ! Maybe the people you say don't listen to Key will listen to Clark !!

blackcap
07-08-2020, 12:20 PM
Someone was reminding me of that unfortunate business around the dodgy expenses claims & lack of integrity by the CEO & the ANZ being caught out ripping off its customers with unwanted products while John Key was Chairman.

Most unfortunate business that & possibly in some way connected with why so many people think John Key's advice to be taken with a grain of salt & not the best person to be giving advice about what's best for NZ for them.

There is a reason he is often referred to as Shonkey. But political meme's abound.

Balance
07-08-2020, 12:20 PM
Ha, load of insubstantial waffle, obviously not true, from John & National's new strategy to use ex politicians like Key to try & get some hits on Jacinda Adern.

The economic catastrophe National were counting on & was supposed too have arrived immediately post lockdown, hasn't happened yet.

The economy was going gang busters prior to the Covid pandemic, thank you Grant Robertson, & things are going much better now than most banking economists expected.

This is your gang busters economy? Slowest GDP growth since 2013?

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/104140/nz-faces-covid-19-crisis-annual-economic-growth-having-slowed-18-december-quarter-6-year

"New Zealand is entering a major downturn on the back of annual economic growth falling to a six-year low, as expected.
Gross domestic product (GDP) growth slowed to 1.8% year-on-year in the December 2019 quarter, according to the latest Statistics New Zealand figures.
Annual GDP growth hadn’t been this sluggish since the December 2013 quarter. It fell from 2.3% in the September 2019 quarter."

Amazing how well Comrade Cindy has trained her delusionary the woke pixie dusted sheep to mouth garbage like it is sweet honey!

blackcap
07-08-2020, 12:26 PM
This is your gang busters economy? Slowest GDP growth since 2013?

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/104140/nz-faces-covid-19-crisis-annual-economic-growth-having-slowed-18-december-quarter-6-year

"New Zealand is entering a major downturn on the back of annual economic growth falling to a six-year low, as expected.
Gross domestic product (GDP) growth slowed to 1.8% year-on-year in the December 2019 quarter, according to the latest Statistics New Zealand figures.
Annual GDP growth hadn’t been this sluggish since the December 2013 quarter. It fell from 2.3% in the September 2019 quarter."

Amazing how well Comrade Cindy has trained her delusionary the woke pixie dusted sheep to mouth garbage like it is sweet honey!

To be fair to Cindy, (and I do not like her), our GDP the last 5 years has been built on immigration. Nothing else. I went to a Forbar presentation a few days ago where it showed that immigration was the dominant driver of GDP the last 5 years. Take that out and it would have been just above flat. So 1.8% with little to no immigration and covid restrictions is pretty good in my book.

IAK
07-08-2020, 12:31 PM
Interesting article by Bernard Hickey. "This election's argument over who will repay government debt faster is a dangerous and pointless replay of a 30-year old debate rendered obsolete by today's financial facts."

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/what-we-do-in-the-shadows-of-a-phantom?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

macduffy
07-08-2020, 01:00 PM
Interesting article by Bernard Hickey. "This election's argument over who will repay government debt faster is a dangerous and pointless replay of a 30-year old debate rendered obsolete by today's financial facts."

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/what-we-do-in-the-shadows-of-a-phantom?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Good article. Thanks for posting, IAK.

Bjauck
07-08-2020, 03:24 PM
To be fair to Cindy, (and I do not like her), our GDP the last 5 years has been built on immigration. Nothing else. I went to a Forbar presentation a few days ago where it showed that immigration was the dominant driver of GDP the last 5 years. Take that out and it would have been just above flat. So 1.8% with little to no immigration and covid restrictions is pretty good in my book.
Yep it was Immigration without adequate infrastructure planning to cater for the resultant population increase.

The difficult decisions on how to get more capital to fund investment to boost labour productivity rather than inflating the price of land were avoided by both left and right. Instead we got to keep for so long the restrictive RMA, a supply of cheap labour and real estate remaining the most tax-efficient pension scheme for those able to afford it.

The challenge now may be to find ways of finding how value wrapped up in NZ’s expensive land could somehow be unlocked to boost investment, R&D and the economy...without creating a destabilising real estate price crash.

A $64,000 question for the post-Covid recovery?

Balance
07-08-2020, 03:52 PM
To be fair to Cindy, (and I do not like her), our GDP the last 5 years has been built on immigration. Nothing else. I went to a Forbar presentation a few days ago where it showed that immigration was the dominant driver of GDP the last 5 years. Take that out and it would have been just above flat. So 1.8% with little to no immigration and covid restrictions is pretty good in my book.

Not true. Check out the immigration numbers in 2019.

ThaiJohn
07-08-2020, 04:37 PM
John Key..Rockstar economy
J. Ardern..Busker economy

Balance
07-08-2020, 08:20 PM
J. Ardern..Busker economy

Actually, Beneficiary economy under Cindy.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018758507/public-housing-waitlist-up-50-percent-on-same-time-last-year

An example of how badly things have gone backwards under Cindy :

Nearly 10,000 New Zealanders have had to live in motels over the past three months, with the public housing waitlist up 50 percent on the same time last year.

That's more than triple the waitlist number shortly after the coalition government came to power - there were 6182 applicants in December 2017.

blackcap
08-08-2020, 06:07 AM
Actually, Beneficiary economy under Cindy.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018758507/public-housing-waitlist-up-50-percent-on-same-time-last-year

An example of how badly things have gone backwards under Cindy :

Nearly 10,000 New Zealanders have had to live in motels over the past three months, with the public housing waitlist up 50 percent on the same time last year.

That's more than triple the waitlist number shortly after the coalition government came to power - there were 6182 applicants in December 2017.

It's quite interesting to that prior to the last election, when National were in power, there were stories from the media continually about this or that family living in cars or on the streets. Not really a peep now though the situation is a lot worse than 3 yeasr ago.....

iceman
08-08-2020, 07:02 AM
It's quite interesting to that prior to the last election, when National were in power, there were stories from the media continually about this or that family living in cars or on the streets. Not really a peep now though the situation is a lot worse than 3 yeasr ago.....

Exactly and screaming headlines daily in the newspapers about a "HOUSING CRISIS" . No bias there of course.

Panda-NZ-
08-08-2020, 08:04 AM
we have 4% unemployment so far enough said. :)

tim23
08-08-2020, 08:25 AM
Not bothering to find the original thread I enjoyed this from Mary Holm in the Herald today. Gee I wonder if the objector was one of the self anointed "high priests" of this forum?

In April 2017, a superannuitant objected to being referred to as a beneficiary. In my reply I said names don't really matter. "As Shakespeare might have said, a superannuitant by any other name is still pretty lucky." That was based, of course, on Juliet's declaration to Romeo that "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

iceman
08-08-2020, 08:25 AM
Did you pull your head out of the sand for a breath Panda ? :

Hours worked were down by over 10% – another record.
The number of people classified as "not in the labour force" rose 37,000
And the number of employed people fell 11,000.
The employment rate fell to 66.9% from 67.5%.
The labour force participation rate fell to 69.7% from a revised 70.5%.

tim23
08-08-2020, 08:26 AM
Actually, Beneficiary economy under Cindy.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018758507/public-housing-waitlist-up-50-percent-on-same-time-last-year

An example of how badly things have gone backwards under Cindy :

Nearly 10,000 New Zealanders have had to live in motels over the past three months, with the public housing waitlist up 50 percent on the same time last year.

That's more than triple the waitlist number shortly after the coalition government came to power - there were 6182 applicants in December 2017.

And your lot brought the policy in re living in motels...

tim23
08-08-2020, 08:28 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/422918/high-court-blocks-jami-lee-ross-from-publishing-sensitive-documents

Scumbag JLR trying to use sensitive information sent to him as part of the court document & discovery process to score political points.

JLR was one of your lot!

Panda-NZ-
08-08-2020, 08:31 AM
Did you pull your head out of the sand for a breath Panda ? :

Hours worked were down by over 10% – another record.
The number of people classified as "not in the labour force" rose 37,000
And the number of employed people fell 11,000.
The employment rate fell to 66.9% from 67.5%.
The labour force participation rate fell to 69.7% from a revised 70.5%.

Yeah but you're ignoring the good stuff I think.

The other side have no policies

tim23
08-08-2020, 08:49 AM
Yeah but you're ignoring the good stuff I think.

The other side have no policies

I heard one from Collins the other day - no one would escape quarantine under her watch bit like the eyebrows lie the other day - Judith thats like saying there will be no murders under her watch or no homelessness, what a stupid grand statement!

Blue Skies
08-08-2020, 09:41 AM
At the Auckland conference a couple of days ago, Helen Clark was saying pretty much the same things needed to be done as John Key did. Of course she wasn't directly critical of her protege but agreed that the current situation is unsustainable economically ! Maybe the people you say don't listen to Key will listen to Clark !!


Yes agree with you, & I think they agreed on points about the quarantine choke point & need to find a solution to allow categories like international students in, using private sector partnerships to increase capacity. (Not so much about allowing uber rich Americans to buy NZ land).

Quarantine capacity is a problem with far more NZ'ers wanting too return than we expected due to our extraordinary success in eliminating Covid here (apart from those cases in quarantine). I think it's 7000 places but someone may correct me on that. Obviously returning NZ'ers have to take take priority before any other category.

Am quite sure the Govt will be working on looking at ways to expand capacity & relax the border restrictions, allowing international students in next year, but no doubt after the disastrous SERCO experiment under National with private sector run prisons (remember cell phone footage of fight clubs etc) & the disaster for Australia evolving out of private sector run quarantines in Victoria, finding ways to safely & reliably expand capacity is far from straightforward.

Keeping this invisible highly courageous threat out while allowing tens of thousands of people back into the country is extraordinarily difficult, extraordinary what we have achieved so far, may it last.

Balance
08-08-2020, 10:06 AM
JLR was one of your lot!

Indeed he was ex National but so desperate are Labourites here to cloud the debate about how pathetic Comrade Cindy & her incompetents have been, no less than your good mate Blue Skies used JLR to try and score a point :


Yes the ghastly way she was targeted & treated by the opposition & in particular Melissa Lee was despicable.
As JLR said, they set out to destroy her personally (not her policies or arguments ) & when everyone could see she was down & in an extremely fragile state & vulnerable, instead of easing up Melissa Lee kept right on putting the boot in.
It was awful to watch & I think a man would not have been treated with the same level of nastiness, certainly Todd Muller wasn't thank goodness.
I could never have any respect for Melissa Lee after that.

There was also the National MP who had the affair with JLR, who was treated appallingly by the media.

Unfortunately, he ended up (just like you now, tim23) scoring an own goal! :t_up:

BTW : Melissa Lee does not exist - just a fickle of Blue Skies' imagination.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And how despicable is it to quote the ultimate hypocrite and predator JLR to make a point?

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/investigations/he-said-hed-destroy-me-and-here-we-are

‘He said he’d destroy me ... and here we are’

"We all know about the spectacular downfall of National MP Jami-Lee Ross after a kamikaze attack on his own party and leader.

We know also about his affair, breakup and public targeting of fellow MP Sarah Dowie.

Dowie reveals her belief that Ross deliberately used the cloak of mental breakdown, and misused her text message, to try to deflect blame and accountability from himself after his failed attack in October 2018 on leader Simon Bridges.

Blue Skies
08-08-2020, 11:52 AM
Indeed he was ex National but so desperate are Labourites here to cloud the debate about how pathetic Comrade Cindy & her incompetents have been, no less than your good mate Blue Skies used JLR to try and score a point :



Unfortunately, he ended up (just like you now, tim23) scoring an own goal! :t_up:

BTW : Melissa Lee does not exist - just a fickle of Blue Skies' imagination.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And how despicable is it to quote the ultimate hypocrite and predator JLR to make a point?

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/investigations/he-said-hed-destroy-me-and-here-we-are

‘He said he’d destroy me ... and here we are’

"We all know about the spectacular downfall of National MP Jami-Lee Ross after a kamikaze attack on his own party and leader.

We know also about his affair, breakup and public targeting of fellow MP Sarah Dowie.

Dowie reveals her belief that Ross deliberately used the cloak of mental breakdown, and misused her text message, to try to deflect blame and accountability from himself after his failed attack in October 2018 on leader Simon Bridges.



You're obviously terribly confused Balance & your outrage knows no bounds.
It's like poking a wasps nest with a stick which am sure some on here do just for amusement ( I would never do such a thing )

JLR ethics are irrelevant to the issue we're discussing, as most would comprehend, he just publicly outed the strategy by National to go after Curran, the weakest link, like a pack of hyenas lead by list MP Melissa Lee.
Imo it went way past the level it needed to, with no regard for Curran's deteriorating mental health & safety.
Of course it does not excuse or distract from any other repugnant behaviour & why you would even suggest that is strange.

BTW, Melissa Lee is a National list MP & spokesperson on broadcasting & a few other things. I think she would be a bit upset to hear anyone thinks she's a figment of someone's imagination.

boysy
08-08-2020, 04:29 PM
Looks like that rogue poll wasn’t so rouge afterall ....

PM Jacinda Ardern maintains ‘crushing’ lead over new National leader Judith Collins

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8...0-202008070802

Balance
08-08-2020, 05:28 PM
Looks like that rogue poll wasn’t so rouge afterall ....

PM Jacinda Ardern maintains ‘crushing’ lead over new National leader Judith Collins

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8...0-202008070802

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7339-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-september-10-2017-201709151750

boysy
09-08-2020, 09:11 AM
Quoting a poll from 3 years ago rather than one released yesterday not sure what your trying ......

iceman
09-08-2020, 09:39 AM
What ? Bullying in the Labour Party ? Surely not https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122339382/why-labour-mp-louisa-wall-refuses-to-know-her-place

tim23
09-08-2020, 04:50 PM
Quoting a poll from 3 years ago rather than one released yesterday not sure what your trying ......

Being obtuse, clever (in their mind at least), diverting, weird - you name it!

tim23
10-08-2020, 05:26 PM
Interesting read in Herald premium, asset prices tend to do better under Labour...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12355199

Balance
12-08-2020, 05:42 AM
And here we are - back to lockdown L3 & L2, with no idea how widespread are the new virus infections.

Billions of dollars spent & economy hammered but :

1. Where is the Effective contact tracing App?

2. Where was the effective testing regime for all those likely to be infected (Air crew, ship crew, quarantine facilities workers, those in contact with returnees) and spread the virus to the wider community?

Would have cost bugger all to implement the simple two measures 1 & 2 but what we have is a CYA government and MOH who have learnt f... all about preventive Covid 19 measures.

The quarantine debacle all over again. Nothing learnt & proactively done until something blows up.

Balance
12-08-2020, 06:44 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12355793

102 days without community spread - so plenty of time to put in contingency plans for businesses.

So where are the plans?

What have the government and MOH been doing?

Kiwibuild all over again - all talk and no real plan or action.

mikeybycrikey
12-08-2020, 08:51 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12355793

102 days without community spread - so plenty of time to put in contingency plans for businesses.

So where are the plans?


You’re right. Businesses have had months to make contingency plans for the eventual return of COVID and what have they been doing? The government has set up a whole quarantine and managed isolation system and publicised their tracing app and alert levels.

Do you expect government to do all the heavy lifting here? Have businesses done anything? Has the Chamber of Commerce just been sitting on its hands?

Balance
12-08-2020, 09:01 AM
Do you expect government to do all the heavy lifting here?

Absolutely yes.

Because this government is fighting this election principally on its Covid-19 response. Definitely not on its record to deliver on the huge promises it made in 2017.

And as we can now see, it failed in the quarantine response putting the whole of the lockdown effort at risk.

And now, it has failed to stop community spread when some basic steps (refer #5541) could have prevented this debacle.

BUt it's hardly surprising you have such low expectations of this government, mikeybycrikey - you know they are incapable of delivering anything outside of style over substance.

Balance
12-08-2020, 09:11 AM
deleted deleted

jonu
12-08-2020, 03:10 PM
Judith Collins is casting doubt on when Ardern knew we had a problem. Winnie apparently has said he knew yesterday morning...Ardern reckons she didn't know until 4pm.

On top of that, in the days prior there was suddenly an upsurge in messaging about face masks, an inevitable re-emergence of Covid. Brownlee highlighted this even before the bubble burst. Something stinks.

blackcap
12-08-2020, 03:29 PM
Judith Collins is casting doubt on when Ardern knew we had a problem. Winnie apparently has said he knew yesterday morning...Ardern reckons she didn't know until 4pm.

On top of that, in the days prior there was suddenly an upsurge in messaging about face masks, an inevitable re-emergence of Covid. Brownlee highlighted this even before the bubble burst. Something stinks.

Jacinda stinks. That simple. She needs to go.

jonu
12-08-2020, 04:00 PM
Ardern says there is no place for politicking. What the hell is she standing there for? All the announcements made could have been handled by Bloomfield. Labour have politicked on Covid endlessly. The bullshi**er in chief at her cynical best.

She alluded more than once about their ability to govern approaching an election. Convention has always been that no major things are done without consultation once the campaign has started. Labour launched their campaign last weekend. The cynical bullshi**ery continues.

How do you know Ardern is bullshi**ing? When you can see her teeth!

Joshuatree
12-08-2020, 09:26 PM
Yes of course its all a conspiracy, we ve been had! Poor us poor little weak us , wanna be real men;)

moka
12-08-2020, 09:28 PM
Jacinda stinks. That simple. She needs to go.
That is not what the majority of New Zealanders think about our leader who is much admired both in New Zealand and globally.

Latest Roy Morgan poll shows PM Jacinda Ardern maintains ‘crushing’ lead over new National leader Judith Collins.
The majority (71.5%) of New Zealand electors (down 0.5% since June) said New Zealand was ‘heading in the right direction’ compared to only 19% (up 0.5%) that said New Zealand was ‘heading in the wrong direction’.
https://www.interest.co.nz/news/106427/latest-roy-morgan-poll-shows-pm-jacinda-ardern-maintains-%E2%80%98crushing%E2%80%99-lead-over-new

Balance
12-08-2020, 09:31 PM
That is not what the majority of New Zealanders think about our leader who is much admired both in New Zealand and globally.

Latest Roy Morgan poll shows PM Jacinda Ardern maintains ‘crushing’ lead over new National leader Judith Collins.
The majority (71.5%) of New Zealand electors (down 0.5% since June) said New Zealand was ‘heading in the right direction’ compared to only 19% (up 0.5%) that said New Zealand was ‘heading in the wrong direction’.
https://www.interest.co.nz/news/106427/latest-roy-morgan-poll-shows-pm-jacinda-ardern-maintains-%E2%80%98crushing%E2%80%99-lead-over-new

Hitler was very popular with the German people too, remember? He was such a great and effective leader, wasn't he?

Conclusion : Popularity does not equal good government.

Balance
12-08-2020, 09:35 PM
Yes of course its all a conspiracy, we ve been had! Poor us poor little weak us , wanna be real men;)

Nope - we just want competent government.


And here we are - back to lockdown L3 & L2, with no idea how widespread are the new virus infections.

Billions of dollars spent & economy hammered but :

1. Where is the Effective contact tracing App?

2. Where was the effective testing regime for all those likely to be infected (Air crew, ship crew, quarantine facilities workers, those in contact with returnees) and spread the virus to the wider community?

Would have cost bugger all to implement the simple two measures 1 & 2 but what we have is a CYA government and MOH who have learnt f... all about preventive Covid 19 measures.

The quarantine debacle all over again. Nothing learnt & proactively done until something blows up.

Watch Cindy's team of incompetents at work :

And totally as expected, testing of frontline staff at the border to take place - after communal transmission, not before top prevent the transmission.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300080050/coronavirus-government-mulls-compulsory-masks-health-minister-chris-hipkins-urges-kiwis-to-wear-them

"Hipkins said everyone who worked at the border was now being tested to see where the case may have come from.

The Government aims to have everyone who works at the border and in managed isolation and quarantine facilities tested in 48 hours.

“We want to see all those people tested within the next 48 hours, now there may be some for logistical reasons that don’t get in within that window but certainly we want the vast bulk done within 48 hours,” Hipkins said."

Prevention, Incompetent Hipkins & Comrade 'all style but zero substance ' Cindy, your kindergarten teacher would have told you, is better than cure.

moka
12-08-2020, 09:43 PM
Judith Collins is casting doubt on when Ardern knew we had a problem. Winnie apparently has said he knew yesterday morning...Ardern reckons she didn't know until 4pm.

On top of that, in the days prior there was suddenly an upsurge in messaging about face masks, an inevitable re-emergence of Covid. Brownlee highlighted this even before the bubble burst. Something stinks.
A timeline for yesterday’s developments showing Jacinda knew at 4pm. If Winston knew earlier provide the link.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356084
11 August : The test comes back positive. The man is called in for a second test, along with six others in his household.
2.40pm : Counties Manukau DHB chief executive Margie Apa texts Director General of Health Ashley Bloomfield to alert him to a potential case of Covid-19 outside of managed isolation. A Zoom meeting followed with key officials within 10 minutes.
3.15 pm : Bloomfield calls Health Minister Chris Hipkins but does not get through. He texts Hipkins at 3.27pm and they speak by phone at 3.43 pm.
4pm : PM Jacinda Ardern leaves an afternoon tea for the Labour Party at The Grand in Whanganui. She is told of the case by her chief press secretary, Andrew Campbell, in the van.

moka
12-08-2020, 09:48 PM
Judith Collins is casting doubt on when Ardern knew we had a problem. Winnie apparently has said he knew yesterday morning...Ardern reckons she didn't know until 4pm.
Here is something that Winston actually said.
Deputy Prime Minister Winston this afternoon took aim at Collins for blaming the Government for the new cases.
"That's haphazard and careless and irresponsible and not befitting of someone with legal training and some experience in the law. You get the facts right before you make claims like that."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12355953

Balance
12-08-2020, 09:51 PM
Here is something that Winston actually said.
Deputy Prime Minister Winston this afternoon took aim at Collins for blaming the Government for the new cases.
"That's haphazard and careless and irresponsible and not befitting of someone with legal training and some experience in the law. You get the facts right before you make claims like that."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12355953

Quoting the pathological lying Winston of Owen Glenn fame?

You are getting desperate, aren’t you? 🤣

moka
12-08-2020, 10:03 PM
Hitler was very popular with the German people too, remember? He was such a great and effective leader, wasn't he?

Conclusion : Popularity does not equal good government.
Popularity does not equal good government with Trump. It did with Mandela though.

Balance
13-08-2020, 06:39 AM
Popularity does not equal good government with Trump. It did with Mandela though.

Trump is not popular in the Cindy, Chavez, Mao Tze Tung, Hitler or Mandela way. He was elected with less than 50% of the counter votes and never enjoyed approval rating above 50%.

Balance
13-08-2020, 06:45 AM
Watching TV3, I am very pleased that some in the media have picked up on the gaping hole in our virus border defence - why weren’t ALL quarantine & frontline staff regularly tested?

Can you believe Bloomfield’s answer when he said that they were tested but it was voluntary! WTF!

No wonder we have community transmission - this government y & MOH never learns!

Billions and billions of dollars spent & what have we got? Yet another quarantine type debacle.

artemis
13-08-2020, 06:49 AM
There was a plan ready to go to deal with a community outbreak. Soz to all those who waited hours for a test yesterday or were turned away because the testing site closed at 4pm.

Zaphod
13-08-2020, 08:58 AM
Popularity does not equal good government with Trump. It did with Mandela though.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Balance
13-08-2020, 12:55 PM
From media briefing :

67,000 border frontline staff to be tested over 3 days.

As usual, after the fact and now into panic mode.

A stitch in time saves nine. Cindy has forgotten the wise sayings from her kindergarten days.

Baa_Baa
13-08-2020, 12:57 PM
From media briefing :

67,000 border frontline staff to be tested over 3 days.

As usual, after the fact and now into panic mode.

A stitch in time saves nine. Cindy has forgotten the wise sayings from her kindergarten days.

Get the numbers right, "They're working through testing all of the border staff at t he moment, there are 6000 to 7000 staff in this category."

Balance
13-08-2020, 01:08 PM
Get the numbers right, "They're working through testing all of the border staff at t he moment, there are 6000 to 7000 staff in this category."

Thanks for the correction. ��

Makes it worse, doesn’t it?

A manageable number which they should have been testing regularly as a matter of course instead of panicking now to test all.

Always after the fact.

And in the case of this CYA government, they would have normally commissioned a multi-million dollar study or report before implementing anything.

Vagabond47
13-08-2020, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the correction. ��

Makes it worse, doesn’t it?

A manageable number which they should have been testing regularly as a matter of course.

They were being tested on a regular schedule, which you would know if you'd watched the lunchtime press conference. Don't let facts get in the way of a rant eh? https://youtu.be/TccbsJD9k3A?t=1777

Balance
13-08-2020, 05:24 PM
They were being tested on a regular schedule, which you would know if you'd watched the lunchtime press conference. Don't let facts get in the way of a rant eh? https://youtu.be/TccbsJD9k3A?t=1777

Dr Bloomfield stated it was voluntary.

So get your own facts right before you attempt to cover up for Cindy & her team of incompetents.

Vagabond47
13-08-2020, 06:01 PM
Dr Bloomfield stated it was voluntary.

So get your own facts right before you attempt to cover up for Cindy & her team of incompetents.

lol, When are you changing your username to unbalanced? You'd have complained about abuse of rights if it had been compulsory.

Left field
13-08-2020, 06:05 PM
Crikey, I've got to say yesterday's conspiracy theory interview by Jerry Brownlee has not done National any favours.

Balance
13-08-2020, 06:05 PM
lol, When are you changing your username to unbalanced? You'd have complained about abuse of rights if it had been compulsory.

One excuse after another - just like Cindy & her team of incompetents. 🤣

Baa_Baa
13-08-2020, 06:19 PM
Crikey, I've got to say yesterday's conspiracy theory interview by Jerry Brownlee has not done National any favours.

The election campaign has made things murky but it does make one wonder how much the government actually knows and when they actually decide to tell the people. Something doesn’t smell right, smoke and fire?

Left field
13-08-2020, 06:26 PM
The election campaign has made things murky but it does make one wonder how much the government actually knows and when they actually decide to tell the people. Something doesn’t smell right, smoke and fire?

Yeah, Murky conspiracy theories are working great for Trump, so why not try them here. Good move National.

That's enough of me on politics....... with my name, I have to be careful I don't become Left wing.

Balance
13-08-2020, 06:50 PM
The election campaign has made things murky but it does make one wonder how much the government actually knows and when they actually decide to tell the people. Something doesn’t smell right, smoke and fire?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/winston-peters-claims-current-auckland-covid-19-cluster-could-linked-quarantine-breach

So why is Bloomfield contradicting Cindy?

Something more than smells and it’s not Hipkins’ socks.

jonu
13-08-2020, 07:12 PM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/winston-peters-claims-current-auckland-covid-19-cluster-could-linked-quarantine-breach

So why is Bloomfield contradicting Cindy?

Something more than smells and it’s not Hipkins’ socks.

Sounds more and more like authorities knew there was a problem and had to wait for it to surface. Hence the increased fearmongering about masks and testing just prior. Presumably they knew of a breach with an infected person but couldn't be sure if there had been transmission. Big question is, did Ardern know? She was at the forefront of the scaremongering and visiting a mask factory.

greater fool
13-08-2020, 07:24 PM
They were being tested on a regular schedule, which you would know if you'd watched the lunchtime press conference. Don't let facts get in the way of a rant eh? https://youtu.be/TccbsJD9k3A?t=1777

What are the facts???

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/nearly-two-thirds-of-nz-s-covid-19-border-isolation-staff-had-never-been-tested-a-week-ago.html

We know who you believe, but......................... would you allow there's room for doubt?

RGR367
13-08-2020, 08:32 PM
Looks like quarantine operation was improved for anyone absconding only. They've really forgotten to test all the personnel involved. This is like Kiwibuild all over again, to be improved time and time again but nothing gets done. This Covid19 outbreak will make or break this gov't.

Balance
13-08-2020, 08:45 PM
What are the facts???

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/nearly-two-thirds-of-nz-s-covid-19-border-isolation-staff-had-never-been-tested-a-week-ago.html

We know who you believe, but......................... would you allow there's room for doubt?

Poor old Vagabond47 - betrayed by his beloved Cindy beyond redemption.

I actually feel sorry for him - must hurt so bad to be let down so decisively.

“Newshub can reveal that just one week before our current community outbreak, 63.5 percent of all border and hotel isolation workers in Auckland had never been tested for COVID-19.

The Prime Minister says all staff will now face compulsory tests, but a public health expert says it beggars belief this wasn't already happening.

They're part of our most high-risk group: airport staff like Customs and Immigration, hotel workers like security.”

jonu
13-08-2020, 09:01 PM
Poor old Vagabond47 - betrayed by his beloved Cindy beyond redemption.

I actually feel sorry for him - must hurt so bad to be let down so decisively.

“Newshub can reveal that just one week before our current community outbreak, 63.5 percent of all border and hotel isolation workers in Auckland had never been tested for COVID-19.

The Prime Minister says all staff will now face compulsory tests, but a public health expert says it beggars belief this wasn't already happening.

They're part of our most high-risk group: airport staff like Customs and Immigration, hotel workers like security.”

Nothing beggars belief about the competency levels of this lot. Ardern and her Cabinet of incompetents. It's what happens when you have a PR expert in charge of a Cabinet chosen on the basis of diversity not competency. It's all about the optics and framing the narrative. They make up the policy by way of reacting to the latest cockup.

All points to big Gerry not being so paranoid after all.

moka
13-08-2020, 09:30 PM
Crikey, I've got to say yesterday's conspiracy theory interview by Jerry Brownlee has not done National any favours.
As the Spinoff says “If Winston Peters’ superannuation overpayments could not stay private, then there’s no way dozens of people could hold information this dangerous without it leaking out. “

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/13-08-2020/gerry-brownlee-just-thinks-its-interesting/
For the conspiracy theory to be real, though, the government and health department have to conspire to risk the lives of thousands of citizens, and spend billions while blowing up a fragile economy, all so that they can impose a kind of authoritarianism by stealth. This is not an exaggeration – it’s the most logical implication of what Brownlee finds so interesting.
It’s also, as Grant Robertson put it this morning, “ridiculous nonsense”. Brownlee knows full well that there is not a vast deep state conspiracy to reinfect the population for malign political ends.

moka
13-08-2020, 09:48 PM
The election campaign has made things murky but it does make one wonder how much the government actually knows and when they actually decide to tell the people. Something doesn’t smell right, smoke and fire?
Conspiracy theories - yeah right. It is hard to keep secrets in NZ. The quotes below come from yesterday's HGH thread. Information from sharetrader posters so a reliable source.


If u see broadly nz shares....all started to trade lower after 3pm then big buys at the end...so.....might be the fundies got the news....


Another forum I frequent a member was told from an insider somewhere that a major city had cases and would be going into lock down. That post was a good few hours before the announcement so I have no doubt the news was circulating

moka
13-08-2020, 10:09 PM
All points to big Gerry not being so paranoid after all.
Paranoid and conspiracy theories? Hard to keep information confidential in NZ.

This is how confidential information is leaked in NZ political circles, according to Winston Peters. And let us not forget the leaked emails that lead to the downfall of Hamish Walker and Michelle Boag.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421758/peters-makes-superannuation-leak-allegations-in-parliament
Peters claimed in the House that he had been told former National Party press secretary Rachel Morton was the original source of the leak (of his superannuation overpayment.)
He alleged Morton heard about his superannuation details because she was present when former National minister Anne Tolley told her colleague Paula Bennett about it.
"Ms Morton then, thinking it would be kept in confidence, told ACT Party leader David Seymour," Peters said in Parliament.
He then alleged Seymour shared the information with Jordan Williams from the Taxpayers' Union.
"Williams, who is no stranger to dirty politics, told John Bishop - father of National MP Chris Bishop - and the details were then leaked to Newsroom's Tim Murphy.
"Williams also told another dirty politics practitioner, National Party polster David Farrar," Peters told the House.
Peters said Farrar tried to "shut it down" because of the risk to National.
Peters then claimed his source had informed him National Party members had "joked among themselves about the leak but realised they couldn't do anything with the 'no surprises disclosure' their risk was too high".
"That of course didn't prevent Ms [Anne] Tolley from telling her sister, nor did it prevent 42 people being made aware of my super case.
ACT leader David Seymour told Parliament the claims were disgraceful and sleazy.

Joshuatree
13-08-2020, 10:30 PM
Dirtier and dirtier and desperate. At this rate The national party wont even save the teacups let alone the furniture.

Watching New Zealand getting red-pilled (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300081923/im-just-outlining-facts-watching-new-zealand-getting-redpilled-in-real-time)

moka
14-08-2020, 12:00 AM
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/08/13/mediawatch-kim-hill-destroys-crusher-collins-conspiracy-theory/
We have the Deputy Leader and the Leader of the Opposition promoting actual conspiracy theories…
so Kim Hill’s brutal destruction of Crusher’s crazy conspiracy theory is a necessary antidote to active promotion of fear and ignorance attempting to manipulate panic for political gain.
This matters!
What National are doing is dangerous!
Of course we need a Loyal Opposition holding a Government with vast police State Powers to account! No one is saying we shouldn’t and Simon Bridges did an amazing job of holding the Government to account when he was running those Select Committees, but this isn’t a Loyal Opposition, this is a Toxic Opposition who are promoting Conspiracy Theories at a time when the electorate is terrified!
National are not trying to hold the Government to account as the loyal Opposition, they are a Toxic Opposition openly feeding conspiracy theories that risk destabilising civil society.

blackcap
14-08-2020, 06:41 AM
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/08/13/mediawatch-kim-hill-destroys-crusher-collins-conspiracy-theory/
We have the Deputy Leader and the Leader of the Opposition promoting actual conspiracy theories…
so Kim Hill’s brutal destruction of Crusher’s crazy conspiracy theory is a necessary antidote to active promotion of fear and ignorance attempting to manipulate panic for political gain.
This matters!
What National are doing is dangerous!
Of course we need a Loyal Opposition holding a Government with vast police State Powers to account! No one is saying we shouldn’t and Simon Bridges did an amazing job of holding the Government to account when he was running those Select Committees, but this isn’t a Loyal Opposition, this is a Toxic Opposition who are promoting Conspiracy Theories at a time when the electorate is terrified!
National are not trying to hold the Government to account as the loyal Opposition, they are a Toxic Opposition openly feeding conspiracy theories that risk destabilising civil society.

No they are not. Brownlee just queried the govts holding back of information and he was right. The govt knew a long while ago we had covid but did not tell us. They did tell us to get masks etc and be ready for another outbreak. The govt were being disingenuous.

Balance
14-08-2020, 06:50 AM
The most dangerous time for NZ now is the incompetence of MOH and the government in their mishandling of the post lockdown border control.

NZers endured months of punishing lockdown in full expectations that our borders will be secured in every way possible against an introduction of Covid-19.

The ongoing quarantine & border debacles, one after another, show that this government has no coherent plan and no idea how to protect NZers.

Watching & listening to Chris Hipkins ducking and diving this morning around the introduction of compulsory testing for frontline workers bring home the fact that this government is continuously behind the curve when it comes to keeping covid-19 out, post lockdown.

Chris found it so hard to answer a simple question - why weren’t front line staff tested as a matter of course?

He cannot or will not answer the simple question.

Answer - It’s compulsory now, he replied.

Q - Why not before?

A - We were testing those showing symptoms.

Q - But a lot of cases are asymptomatic.

A - We are testing them now.

Get the picture?

dobby41
14-08-2020, 09:25 AM
No they are not. Brownlee just queried the govts holding back of information and he was right. The govt knew a long while ago we had covid but did not tell us. They did tell us to get masks etc and be ready for another outbreak. The govt were being disingenuous.

Well National have you fooled but not the rest of the public.
Any fool could see how and why he was trying to seed rumors and create a story.
Dirty politics is just their way.

Balance
14-08-2020, 09:31 AM
Well National have you fooled but not the rest of the public.
Any fool could see how and why he was trying to seed rumors and create a story.
Dirty politics is just their way.

And PR spin (which insidiously fools the public) is this government’s modus operandi to bluff their way out of the messes they create.

No answer or explanation yet from Chris & Cindy why all frontline staff were not tested as a matter of course.

Another stuff up to be covered up by PR spin.

Kiwibuild, anyone?

Balance
14-08-2020, 09:37 AM
Auckland University Professor of Medicine Des Gorman rated the Government's response as "somewhere between two and three" out of 10.

"I've seen health systems manage medical emergencies worse than this but it takes some doing," Gorman told Hosking. "It's like we're living in a parallel universe."

He was particularly astounded that only a third of border workers had been tested up until this week. "I thought someone was pulling my leg."

New Zealand had now had the same experience as Australia, Vietnam and other countries whose elimination strategies had been undermined by cases through the border.

"If we are going to have a keep-it-out, stamp-it-out [approach], then we need to keep it out as much as possible, stamp it out as quickly as possible... but you can't keep reacting the way we are to clusters by plunging society back into deep freeze."

RGR367
14-08-2020, 10:46 AM
Again, this CoVid-19 outbreak will make or break this gov't. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082167/coronavirus-one-confirmed-up-to-six-probable-cases-of-covid19-in-tokoroa

Balance
14-08-2020, 10:46 AM
Well National have you fooled but not the rest of the public.
Any fool could see how and why he was trying to seed rumors and create a story.
Dirty politics is just their way.


Again, this CoVid-19 outbreak will make or break this gov't. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082167/coronavirus-one-confirmed-up-to-six-probable-cases-of-covid19-in-tokoroa


And in the real world, this is what is happening - MOH & government incapable of putting in place (and complete failure to adhere to) very basic precautions :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...tomatic-people

A woman tested at an Auckland pop-up clinic had to queue in a tent with other symptomatic people – with little social distancing and hardly anyone wearing a mask.

Begs the question as to what have been actually happening at the border and quarantine centers, does it not?

It's no wonder that we have community transmission!

Cindy's new slogan : "Let's Keep Spreading"?

moka
14-08-2020, 11:53 AM
No they are not. Brownlee just queried the govts holding back of information and he was right. The govt knew a long while ago we had covid but did not tell us. They did tell us to get masks etc and be ready for another outbreak. The govt were being disingenuous.

Not true that the govt knew a long while ago we had covid but did not tell us. We had no community spread of covid that the government knew of, but they were expecting it especially because of what happened in Australia and Vietnam.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12354865
Vietnam misses out on 100 days of no community transmission.
After 99 straight days of no local transmission, cases have suddenly surged in the south east Asian nation – a worrying sign for any country or state that thinks it has the virus under control.
And that includes New Zealand, which yesterday marked its own 99-day run without community transmission.
Remarkably, up until a week ago, Vietnam had yet to record a single death from coronavirus. One week on, the death toll stands at 10.

moka
14-08-2020, 11:58 AM
More praise for Jacinda from overseas academics.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356461
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's communication style during New Zealand's lockdown has been praised by academics who have studied her messaging to Kiwis throughout the pandemic.
The research study, co-authored by academics from four universities in Scotland, found informal videos from Ardern's home helped the country unite in the fight against Covid-19.
The study found she conveyed her messaging in a "clear and relatable way", helping create the "team of five million" come together.
The pandemic had severely tested the leadership and communication abilities of political leaders globally and required them to demonstrate not only effective planning but an ability to communicate clear and consistent messages in an empathetic manner as well.

artemis
14-08-2020, 12:01 PM
Well National have you fooled but not the rest of the public.
Any fool could see how and why he was trying to seed rumors and create a story.
Dirty politics is just their way.

It is the nature of the beltway that information races through like lightning. Some of it is true, some is not, some is somewhere in between. But we the taxpayers should not have to wait weeks for Official Information requests to be answered, to only then find out that sometimes we have been deliberately misled. That may be dirty politics but just who is playing it.

We have seen some of it recently, and it certainly raises the question of what else? For senior politicians to ask questions or raise issues, surely that is a good thing. It is not helpful to call it dirty politics, scaremongering, politicising. It is helpful for those in charge to answer honestly if they know, or agree to check and report back if they don't know.

Sir Ten
14-08-2020, 12:42 PM
We need a change of tact in our response to Covid:
- We are obliged to allow NZ citizens to return home
- Some returning kiwis will inevitably bring Covid across the border
- Regardless of the systems put in place (or the change in the responsible politicians), the virus will make its way into our society
- Bouncing in and out of lock down is unsustainable and ultimately futile
- The government needs to recognise the futility of eradication and refocus on managing Covid's presence in NZ and the likely long lead time on the development and dissemination of a vaccine (particularly for NZ)
- The refocused approach needs to better balance the health and economic impacts (too heavily weighted to the health impact at the moment)... where is the analysis evaluating the likely number of deaths based on what we now know about the virus? At what point does the cost of supporting eradication (through the likes of wage subsidies etc.) outweigh the likely loss of life (and when I say "loss of life", I don't mean the aggregate number of people dying, I mean a life expectancy adjusted figure - the value of a a 20 year old life is significantly higher than that of an 80 year old)
- The government should open up the domestic economy and focus on establishing the infrastructure to protect the vulnerable (it's easier to fund the cost of protecting the vulnerable if you actually have people/businesses employed and paying taxes)

It's naive to believe that politics doesn't play a part in this crisis. I think the election will have to be pushed out for practical purposes - i.e. people just won't be allowed to congregate to vote, but I actually think it's better for the country that we get it done and over with. We need a government with a new 3-year mandate (whatever the colour). Only then will a "change of tact" have any chance of occurring - prior to that, Labour won't risk a change in messaging and will continue to pursue the health-focused approach which has seen their support grow even further.

Personally, I would hold Jacinda up as a noble and noteworthy leader if she was able to disentangle herself from the politics and admit that eradication isn't practical. But I suspect there's a better chance of tax cuts...

Bjauck
14-08-2020, 01:33 PM
More praise for Jacinda from overseas academics.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356461
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's communication style during New Zealand's lockdown has been praised by academics who have studied her messaging to Kiwis throughout the pandemic.
The research study, co-authored by academics from four universities in Scotland, found informal videos from Ardern's home helped the country unite in the fight against Covid-19.
The study found she conveyed her messaging in a "clear and relatable way", helping create the "team of five million" come together.
The pandemic had severely tested the leadership and communication abilities of political leaders globally and required them to demonstrate not only effective planning but an ability to communicate clear and consistent messages in an empathetic manner as well.

I think the political reality is that as the daily fresh community case numbers keep rolling in, more votes will drift away from Labour. Maybe they will indeed need Winston again to have a chance of forming the next government.

macduffy
14-08-2020, 01:42 PM
Personally, I would hold Jacinda up as a noble and noteworthy leader if she was able to disentangle herself from the politics and admit that eradication isn't practical. But I suspect there's a better chance of tax cuts...

The govt has, rightly, received much acclaim for its handling of the situation until recently. Now, they must also accept blame for deficiencies in border controls, particularly in the failure to adequately test the personnel involved.

Balance
14-08-2020, 01:51 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082520/coronavirus-pakuranga-college-principal-furious-after-incorrect-report-of-case

Now we have the government spreading false rumours!

‘Let’s Keep Spreading!’

Sir Ten
14-08-2020, 02:09 PM
The govt has, rightly, received much acclaim for its handling of the situation until recently. Now, they must also accept blame for deficiencies in border controls, particularly in the failure to adequately test the personnel involved.

I don't disagree, but we are where we are. Blame lies where it lies. Politicians don't easily accept said blame.

I don't mean that flippantly, rather I just find the blame game fatiguing and ultimately wasted energy... Best to have them putting energy into coming up with a strategy that (a) prevents such deficiencies occurring again and (b) provides the country and businesses (the economic engine) with a plan that is supported by objective analysis that reduces the overhang of uncertainty.

macduffy
14-08-2020, 02:48 PM
I don't disagree, but we are where we are. Blame lies where it lies. Politicians don't easily accept said blame.

I don't mean that flippantly, rather I just find the blame game fatiguing and ultimately wasted energy... Best to have them putting energy into coming up with a strategy that (a) prevents such deficiencies occurring again and (b) provides the country and businesses (the economic engine) with a plan that is supported by objective analysis that reduces the overhang of uncertainty.

"We are where we are" is a self-evident fact! There's no getting away from another fact, however, that the handling of the pandemic has political overtones. After all, it was the PM herself who declared this to be a "Covid 19 election"!

artemis
14-08-2020, 03:30 PM
I don't disagree, but we are where we are. Blame lies where it lies. Politicians don't easily accept said blame.

I don't mean that flippantly, rather I just find the blame game fatiguing and ultimately wasted energy... Best to have them putting energy into coming up with a strategy that (a) prevents such deficiencies occurring again and (b) provides the country and businesses (the economic engine) with a plan that is supported by objective analysis that reduces the overhang of uncertainty.

Blaming is easily fixed. The person blamed just needs to stand up and say either - Yes I got it wrong, or No I got it right because.....

Like the AA - My name is xxxx and I am an alcoholic. Just like that - acknowledgement, no spin and no deflection. Open and transparent. (That sounds familiar.)

Balance
14-08-2020, 04:10 PM
More praise for Jacinda from overseas academics.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356461
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's communication style during New Zealand's lockdown has been praised by academics who have studied her messaging to Kiwis throughout the pandemic.
The research study, co-authored by academics from four universities in Scotland, found informal videos from Ardern's home helped the country unite in the fight against Covid-19.
The study found she conveyed her messaging in a "clear and relatable way", helping create the "team of five million" come together.
The pandemic had severely tested the leadership and communication abilities of political leaders globally and required them to demonstrate not only effective planning but an ability to communicate clear and consistent messages in an empathetic manner as well.

Well, what will the overseas academics think when they read this :

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So we now know that 63.5% of border frontline staff have NOT been tested as of Wednesday, 12th August 2020.

7 weeks (yes, 7 weeks) after this government made this announcement about the testing of front line staff :

Government announcement :

23 JUNE 2020

New COVID-19 testing strategy to keep New Zealand safe

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/...w-zealand-safe

Regular health check and asymptomatic testing of all border facing workers

“Under our enhanced strategy, priority for testing will be given to those who are most likely to have been exposed to COVID-19 which is our border and airline staff and those arriving back in New Zealand.

These workers include:

Border workers in customs, biosecurity, immigration and aviation security at airports, and the people who clean at international airports or maritime ports in areas/conveniences visited by international arrivals

Staff who work in managed isolation and quarantine facilities, including those who drive people entering the country from the airport to the facilities

International air and maritime crew.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All words and no action - that's Jacinda Adern, our hijab wearing PM with the gift of the gab to hoodwink many of those in the team of 5 million.

Well, those who consider themselves to be in the team of 5 million - come and kiss my arse if you are so desperate to believe an incompetent government who is actively putting NZers at risk by promising plenty but falling well short of delivering.

Balance
14-08-2020, 04:26 PM
They were being tested on a regular schedule, which you would know if you'd watched the lunchtime press conference. Don't let facts get in the way of a rant eh? https://youtu.be/TccbsJD9k3A?t=1777

Wonder how Vagabond47 is feeling, swallowing whole the garbage fed to him.

Zaphod
14-08-2020, 05:21 PM
Wonder how Vagabond47 is feeling, swallowing whole the garbage fed to him.

Based on the sound bite from, and in light of the facts now presented, the statement from the PM was definitely incorrect. I'm very surprised that regular testing of all staff in close contact with known or suspected carriers were not tested regularly. Another lesson to be learnt.

Balance
14-08-2020, 07:34 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082942/election-2020-act-slams-government-after-coronavirus-lockdown-extension-national-stays-silent

Go, David Seymour - tell it as it is.

This government has one job (they have failed in pretty much everything else) and they cannot even do it.

It is true - Cindy & her incompetents cannot even run a bath.

tim23
14-08-2020, 07:56 PM
Well National have you fooled but not the rest of the public.
Any fool could see how and why he was trying to seed rumors and create a story.
Dirty politics is just their way.

Quite right its hard wired to their DNA - they simply can't help themselves

tim23
14-08-2020, 07:56 PM
And PR spin (which insidiously fools the public) is this government’s modus operandi to bluff their way out of the messes they create.

No answer or explanation yet from Chris & Cindy why all frontline staff were not tested as a matter of course.

Another stuff up to be covered up by PR spin.

Kiwibuild, anyone?

Jog on Balance

moka
14-08-2020, 09:57 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082520/coronavirus-pakuranga-college-principal-furious-after-incorrect-report-of-case

Now we have the government spreading false rumours!

‘Let’s Keep Spreading!’
The article says - In a release just after 3pm Friday, the Ministry of Health confirmed it had incorrectly named Pakuranga College as an affected school.
“While there is a casual link, the ministry is awaiting further test results and at this point no additional public health action is required from the school,” it said.
“The ministry apologises for putting information in the public domain without first notifying the school.”

moka
14-08-2020, 10:29 PM
The govt has, rightly, received much acclaim for its handling of the situation until recently. Now, they must also accept blame for deficiencies in border controls, particularly in the failure to adequately test the personnel involved.


I don't disagree, but we are where we are. Blame lies where it lies. Politicians don't easily accept said blame.

I don't mean that flippantly, rather I just find the blame game fatiguing and ultimately wasted energy... Best to have them putting energy into coming up with a strategy that (a) prevents such deficiencies occurring again and (b) provides the country and businesses (the economic engine) with a plan that is supported by objective analysis that reduces the overhang of uncertainty.

I agree that blame is wasted energy because it focuses on the past, and stays stuck there. Taking response-ability means learning from past mistakes, responding to the problem, and looking at strategies and solutions so it doesn’t happen again. It means being answerable and accountable.
When you say “now, they must also accept blame,” it means finding fault because to blame is not just to hold responsible but to find fault with.

moka
14-08-2020, 11:28 PM
So we now know that 63.5% of border frontline staff have NOT been tested as of Wednesday, 12th August 2020.

7 weeks (yes, 7 weeks) after this government made this announcement about the testing of front line staff :

Government announcement :

23 JUNE 2020

New COVID-19 testing strategy to keep New Zealand safe

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/...w-zealand-safe

Regular health check and asymptomatic testing of all border facing workers

“Under our enhanced strategy, priority for testing will be given to those who are most likely to have been exposed to COVID-19 which is our border and airline staff and those arriving back in New Zealand.

These workers include:

Border workers in customs, biosecurity, immigration and aviation security at airports, and the people who clean at international airports or maritime ports in areas/conveniences visited by international arrivals

Staff who work in managed isolation and quarantine facilities, including those who drive people entering the country from the airport to the facilities

International air and maritime crew.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The press release is not SMART as in specific and measurable. Regular could be once a year.
I would say that there is not an unlimited supply of testing swabs, so the government is careful about testing e.g. Chris Hipkins saying "We shouldn't test people if we don't need to, and for testing to be helpful it had to be targeted and not random.” He also said not all border workers were at risk of coming into contact with the virus which was why not all had been tested.
Testing has been limited to having symptoms or meeting certain criteria. Even now testing is limited.

A “Covid-19 situation update” report from June, the most recent report to be proactively released by the Government, shows officials considered there was “sufficient capacity” in the contact tracing system, and more than 250,000 testing swabs in stock.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122448300/coronavirus-heres-how-the-government-is-making-the-covid19-lockdown-decision

jonu
15-08-2020, 08:08 AM
The press release is not SMART as in specific and measurable. Regular could be once a year.
I would say that there is not an unlimited supply of testing swabs, so the government is careful about testing e.g. Chris Hipkins saying "We shouldn't test people if we don't need to, and for testing to be helpful it had to be targeted and not random.” He also said not all border workers were at risk of coming into contact with the virus which was why not all had been tested.
Testing has been limited to having symptoms or meeting certain criteria. Even now testing is limited.

A “Covid-19 situation update” report from June, the most recent report to be proactively released by the Government, shows officials considered there was “sufficient capacity” in the contact tracing system, and more than 250,000 testing swabs in stock.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122448300/coronavirus-heres-how-the-government-is-making-the-covid19-lockdown-decision

We were told at a briefing this week that there was more than 300,000 tests available. Hardly a reason to limit testing at the most vulnerable point of the defence system which we were also told involved 6-7000 people. You're seriously stretching credibility moka. As is the government.

Balance
15-08-2020, 09:01 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12356709

Paywall

Cindy - Shameless Mistress of Spin

Let’s Keep Spreading the Virus & Spin to cover up.

fungus pudding
15-08-2020, 09:02 AM
Hipkins on The Nation this morning, confirmed my previous thoughts. He should be appointed as permanent Minister of Health and find someone else to take over as Minister of Education. Although there aren't many to choose from. Carmel Sepoloni perhaps?

artemis
15-08-2020, 09:06 AM
Family member had a test last week, said it was quite painful. If we have 300,000 of these kits what will happen to the stock if the new saliva 1 second test comes into production and takes over the world? That's the Israel one, but I see the FDA is close to OKing one from Yale. Will the government use all 300,000 before letting the spit tests in?

Balance
15-08-2020, 09:07 AM
Hipkins on The Nation this morning, confirmed my previous thoughts. He should be appointed as permanent Minister of Health and find someone else to take over as Minister of Education. Although there aren't many to choose from. Carmel Sepoloni perhaps?

Same Hipkins in charge of Health who dropped the ball on regular testing of frontline staff? And who tried to spin his way out of accepting responsibility?

blackcap
15-08-2020, 09:08 AM
Hipkins on The Nation this morning, confirmed my previous thoughts. He should be appointed as permanent Minister of Health and find someone else to take over as Minister of Education. Although there aren't many to choose from. Carmel Sepoloni perhaps?

Chippie couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Surely you jest?

Balance
15-08-2020, 09:10 AM
Family member had a test last week, said it was quite painful. If we have 300,000 of these kits what will happen to the stock if the new saliva 1 second test comes into production and takes over the world? That's the Israel one, but I see the FDA is close to OKing one from Yale. Will the government use all 300,000 before letting the spit tests in?

The tests are cheap - I believe $1 each.

What is very expensive is the process of testing & processing the tests. They stop at 4 pm because the virus stops infecting at 3.59 pm apparently?

When the government is throwing billions at all manner of things, $300k is bugger all.

Heck, $50m+ alone have been spent so far to recover a robot & a machine out of Pike River!

Balance
15-08-2020, 09:27 AM
We were told at a briefing this week that there was more than 300,000 tests available. Hardly a reason to limit testing at the most vulnerable point of the defence system which we were also told involved 6-7000 people. You're seriously stretching credibility moka. As is the government.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/423574/sharper-focus-on-testing-for-customer-facing-border-staff

Not okay to test regularly and had to be voluntary

but

Ok it seems after the outbreak to make the tests compulsory and there are plenty of tests available too it seems.

Bloomfield : ‘We round up sheep, we do not round up people ’ on Wednesday. By Thursday, people = sheep. That’s the contempt this government has for NZers.

moka
15-08-2020, 09:40 AM
We were told at a briefing this week that there was more than 300,000 tests available. Hardly a reason to limit testing at the most vulnerable point of the defence system which we were also told involved 6-7000 people. You're seriously stretching credibility moka. As is the government.
We need to look at the stats.
Although both Ardern and Health Minister Chris Hipkins have assured New Zealanders there are enough Covid-19 tests in the country to satisfy the demand, there is a limited supply. Yesterday a record-breaking 15,703 tests were processed, bringing the total number processed since the in the last 48 hours to almost 26,000.
Only 20 days supply if we continue to test at 15,000 per day.
Only 524,414 tests done in New Zealand from 22 January in the last seven months.

Balance
15-08-2020, 09:52 AM
We need to look at the stats.
Although both Ardern and Health Minister Chris Hipkins have assured New Zealanders there are enough Covid-19 tests in the country to satisfy the demand, there is a limited supply. Yesterday a record-breaking 15,703 tests were processed, bringing the total number processed since the in the last 48 hours to almost 26,000.
Only 20 days supply if we continue to test at 15,000 per day.
Only 524,414 tests done in New Zealand from 22 January in the last seven months.

You are assuming that the supply is finite.

It is not.

Stop the spin.

But do spread the word about Labour’s new slogan : ‘Let’s Keep Spreading’!

moka
15-08-2020, 09:54 AM
Lab testing for COVID-19 as at 9.00 am 14 August
................................Tests ..... Date
Total tested yesterday .. 15,703 ...13 August 2020
7-day rolling average .... 5,353 .....7 August to 13 August 2020
Total tested to date . 524,414 .22 January to 13 August 2020
Supplies in stock*.... 303,367. 14 August 2020

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases

Balance
15-08-2020, 11:04 AM
Lab testing for COVID-19 as at 9.00 am 14 August
................................Tests ..... Date
Total tested yesterday .. 15,703 ...13 August 2020
7-day rolling average .... 5,353 .....7 August to 13 August 2020
Total tested to date . 524,414 .22 January to 13 August 2020
Supplies in stock*.... 303,367. 14 August 2020

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases

Plenty of tests available and the government did not test the 7,000 frontline workers on a regular basis?

Cindy & her incompetents cannot run a bath, let alone a Covid-19 containment response!

Balance
15-08-2020, 12:08 PM
Hipkins on The Nation this morning, confirmed my previous thoughts. He should be appointed as permanent Minister of Health and find someone else to take over as Minister of Education. Although there aren't many to choose from. Carmel Sepoloni perhaps?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356780

David Clark #2 = Chris Hipkins.

Any failure is always the fault of others.

Think he will go as far as to point the finger at Dr 'we round up sheep in NZ, not people' Bloomfield?

jonu
15-08-2020, 01:00 PM
We need to look at the stats.
Although both Ardern and Health Minister Chris Hipkins have assured New Zealanders there are enough Covid-19 tests in the country to satisfy the demand, there is a limited supply. Yesterday a record-breaking 15,703 tests were processed, bringing the total number processed since the in the last 48 hours to almost 26,000.
Only 20 days supply if we continue to test at 15,000 per day.
Only 524,414 tests done in New Zealand from 22 January in the last seven months.

So why prior to the latest community outbreak were they not testing all the staff at the border? There was no pressure on the testing regime when there was no community transmission. It is inexplicably incompetent. A monumental cockup.

macduffy
15-08-2020, 01:38 PM
I agree that blame is wasted energy because it focuses on the past, and stays stuck there. Taking response-ability means learning from past mistakes, responding to the problem, and looking at strategies and solutions so it doesn’t happen again. It means being answerable and accountable.
When you say “now, they must also accept blame,” it means finding fault because to blame is not just to hold responsible but to find fault with.

Yes, that's what I meant.

jonu
15-08-2020, 07:00 PM
Getting no response on the other thread so I figured I would repeat it here.


Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
He's a person speaking his mind. A rare thing in the PC woke world in which Labour and the Greens exist.

moka, be so kind as to explain the exit strategy from NZ's level one and associated closed borders. I'd really love to know so that I can explain to my grandchildren why it is they are still paying of the debt in thirty years time. I don't recall Labour telling us when they committed to spending 150+ billion dollars.

From what I can tell it must be based on the gamble of a vaccine becoming available to the public within the next 12 months (backdated to April). How's that working out?

At what point do we abandon the closed borders and write of 150+ billion to experience?

No answer to this moka? Any Labourite care to enlighten me as to what the exit strategy is?

dobby41
15-08-2020, 07:23 PM
Getting no response on the other thread so I figured I would repeat it here.


Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
He's a person speaking his mind. A rare thing in the PC woke world in which Labour and the Greens exist.

moka, be so kind as to explain the exit strategy from NZ's level one and associated closed borders. I'd really love to know so that I can explain to my grandchildren why it is they are still paying of the debt in thirty years time. I don't recall Labour telling us when they committed to spending 150+ billion dollars.

From what I can tell it must be based on the gamble of a vaccine becoming available to the public within the next 12 months (backdated to April). How's that working out?

At what point do we abandon the closed borders and write of 150+ billion to experience?

No answer to this moka? Any Labourite care to enlighten me as to what the exit strategy is?

Crusher isn't going to let it in either so maybe they will have the same exit strategy?

I do wonder how long we can keep the current settings though.
It seems 'experts' think elimination is still the best strategy, depends on which experts you choose like for all other advice.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082182/coronavirus-elimination-of-covid19-still-best-strategy-for-nz-experts-say

Balance
16-08-2020, 08:49 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082942/election-2020-act-slams-government-after-coronavirus-lockdown-extension-national-stays-silent

Perfect summation of how dismally this government has failed to deliver post the previous lockdown:

"The Government had one job, to isolate the outbreak, but had failed."

“The Government set itself one job: test, trace and isolate the virus in three days. But it has failed, at a cost to all of us,” Seymour said.

“If the strategy was always for restrictions to last one incubation cycle of 14 days, the Government should have said so.”

Seymour earlier said the Government needed to have a plan to live with the virus, even if that meant tolerating small outbreaks. New Zealand should try and mimic Taiwan, which had managed to have low rates of death and infection without imposing severe lockdowns."

moka
16-08-2020, 10:00 AM
Crusher isn't going to let it in either so maybe they will have the same exit strategy?

I do wonder how long we can keep the current settings though.
It seems 'experts' think elimination is still the best strategy, depends on which experts you choose like for all other advice.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300082182/coronavirus-elimination-of-covid19-still-best-strategy-for-nz-experts-say As a non-expert, I think elimination is the best strategy and if the current outbreak can be contained we can go back to elimination. And go back to life pretty much as normal except for lots of handwashing and kindness, and border controls.
So far all the cases have been linked to one cluster so it may be possible. As Michael Baker says the alternatives to elimination were undesirable for both health and economic reasons. And yes there are a range of experts with a variety of opinions, just pick one to confirm your bias.

moka
16-08-2020, 10:07 AM
We expect to move in and out of elimination for the foreseeable future, says epidemiologist Amanda Kvalsvig.
We know that elimination is possible because New Zealand eliminated community transmission before. The goal is to maintain zero community spread but this country will always be under threat from infections being introduced through the borders. No border-control system can be 100% fail-safe. But because we’re starting from a baseline of elimination, it should be feasible to extinguish each new outbreak using all the control measures we have at our disposal, including case and contact management, physical distancing and mass masking.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02402-5

Balance
16-08-2020, 10:14 AM
We expect to move in and out of elimination for the foreseeable future, says epidemiologist Amanda Kvalsvig.
We know that elimination is possible because New Zealand eliminated community transmission before. The goal is to maintain zero community spread but this country will always be under threat from infections being introduced through the borders. No border-control system can be 100% fail-safe. But because we’re starting from a baseline of elimination, it should be feasible to extinguish each new outbreak using all the control measures we have at our disposal, including case and contact management, physical distancing and mass masking.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02402-5

In other words, economic strangulation by a thousand cuts.

Strategy of a cancerous cell.

Zaphod
16-08-2020, 05:10 PM
In other words, economic strangulation by a thousand cuts.

Strategy of a cancerous cell.

The other worrisome aspect is the development of lockdown fatigue. Each and every additional lockdown will cause more people to psychologically revolt against it, potentially placing us into a more risky situation.

moka
16-08-2020, 10:21 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122446869/postponing-the-election-careful-what-you-wish-for
Postponing the election? Careful what you wish for.
Should the Government postpone the election? No-one is going to take any notice of Judith Collins calling for a delay but that doesn’t mean it’s the wrong thing to do.
The more this election looks like a foregone conclusion, the less people will feel like voting. Democracy relies on participation and people believing their vote counts. More difficult voting processes could also act as a discouragement to voting.
Maybe Collins should be careful what she wishes for in delaying the election because the current climate could present it with a God-sent opportunity.
What was Gerry Brownlee playing at this week by insinuating the second outbreak and move to level 3 were part of some grand Government scheme? This is not gutter politics, it is nutter politics. As the former earthquake minister, he, of all people, should know how to ride this out with dignity.
Delaying the dissolution of Parliament and using the powers of the Chief Electoral Officer provide the mechanisms to postpone the election to a date suitable for the current circumstances. Let’s do it to ensure a healthy election

moka
16-08-2020, 10:28 PM
The personalisation of politics – those who support Ardern also support the government’s response, while those who did not feel emotionally close to Ardern do not support the government’s response.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300083151/jacinda-arderns-star-power-comes-with-risks
Ardern’s political style rests on her personal appeal, but it has also been criticised as superficial – or, as Bill English put it, “stardust”. Personalisation of politics means that political leaders can nurture emotional closeness with voters across party lines and political ideologies.
The majority of Ardern supporters who also support the National Party (80%), ACT (85.2%), and New Conservatives (85.7%) deemed the government’s response to COVID-19 “successful”.
In stark contrast, among those who did not feel closely connected to Ardern, few supporters of opposition parties gave such positive evaluations (National 37.4%, ACT 27.8%, and New Conservatives 23.5%).
Nonetheless, even among supporters of the opposition parties, people who felt emotionally close to Ardern showed more support for higher tax than those who felt closer to other party leaders.

blackcap
17-08-2020, 06:28 AM
Found on BFD.co.nz. Interesting reading. No wonder so many questions are being asked on social media.

I hope Mr Hipkens doesn't tell me off, but some things about our 'South Auckland family' don't add up. Is it alright to talk about it? After all, the repercussions are destroying the livelihoods of many of our Auckland friends and costing the country billions so everything should be subject to scrutiny at this stage; don't you think?

We learned on Tuesday 11 August, and the following days, that an unwell male, in his fifties, presented to his GP on Monday 10th August with symptoms and was swabbed for a COVID sample, testing positive twice. By the following day the sample had been notified and a second, also positive, test taken and analysed. Not only that, but the six other family 'household' members who live with him had been tested with three of the further six testing positive by mid-afternoon Tuesday. That's, of itself, a minor-miracle turn-around time given results normally take 24 hours to materialise, but I suppose they were designated priority, or something, and by 4pm Tuesday 11th the hammer began dropping on the entire population of unfortunate Auckland.

Mr Bloomfield, with hand on heart and all the certainty possible, claimed, in response to a press question on the 11th, that the gentleman concerned had displayed symptoms for "four or five days" before presenting at his GP. We now know that was not true: that is not to say Mr Bloomfield lied, but that the statement is simply untrue, because during the COVID Update of August 13th both the prime minister and Mr Bloomfield confirmed that, in fact, the correct date of the gentleman's first symptoms was July 31st. We never went '100-Days' COVID-free.

So what? Well, here's the interesting thing from the Alert Level 3 announcement on the 11th:

"Media: And what kind of symptoms are the cases showing? Are they quite severe symptoms?


Dr Ashley Bloomfield: So the person who presented as the first case did have fever, a cough—you know, so quite noticeable symptoms. The partner of that person also had obvious symptoms—in fact, that preceded that of the case that we diagnosed first".

So: the partner of Index One was ill and displaying "obvious" COVID symptoms "preceding", our "first" documented resurgence case, taking the possible timeline further back, raising further questions and nullifying others, for instance: if 'Index One's' partner actually contracted COVID first then Index One's employment at the Americold cool-store is completely irrelevant, a totally unnecessary and unfair slur on the business, a Herring Red, and a very wet rag to the 'came in on frozen peas from Melbourne' governing coalition's 'Dunno how it got here' conspiracy theory.

Thumbnail

Over to you: Mr Hipkens but, please; don't get angry, remember to watch your peas and (Managed Isolation and Quarantine) queues, they're splitting.

mikeybycrikey
17-08-2020, 08:43 AM
Found on BFD.co.nz. Interesting reading. No wonder so many questions are being asked on social media.

The thing that gets me about all these insinuations that the Director General or a minister is lying, is it is never explained what the benefit is from the lie.

If the index case wasn’t really the index case, why was the lie told? It just becomes grand conspiracy after grand conspiracy with no explation of what the aim of the grand conspiracy was.

It also the usual anti-government conspiracy where they can’t organise their way out of a paper bag, but they can create a grand web of lies and no one from the MOH is blabbing to the media about this fabrication.

1. Lie about covid
2. ???????
3. Profit?

westerly
17-08-2020, 08:54 AM
[QUOTE=blackcap;836534]Found on BFD.co.nz. Interesting reading. No wonder so many questions are being asked on social media.

Unable to find article on quoted website. Perhaps the MOH had it deleted?

westerly

dobby41
17-08-2020, 09:09 AM
Dr Ashley Bloomfield: So the person who presented as the first case did have fever, a cough—you know, so quite noticeable symptoms. The partner of that person also had obvious symptoms—in fact, that preceded that of the case that we diagnosed first".

I have listened to all the briefings and never heard or saw that written - sure that isn't fake news on its own and you just believe it because it suits you?
Be careful what you read and believe.

blackcap
17-08-2020, 09:12 AM
[QUOTE=blackcap;836534]Found on BFD.co.nz. Interesting reading. No wonder so many questions are being asked on social media.

Unable to find article on quoted website. Perhaps the MOH had it deleted?

westerly

It is not an article. It is a post by someone.

dobby41
17-08-2020, 10:11 AM
It is not an article. It is a post by someone.

Why would you re-post someone else's, unverified, opinion?
It is wrong in the assertion that the second case was prior to the first and makes it look like you just spread rumors.

Balance
17-08-2020, 10:29 AM
Why would you re-post someone else's, unverified, opinion?
It is wrong in the assertion that the second case was prior to the first and makes it look like you just spread rumors.

Wakey wakey - that’s how social media works - for sharing information and views.

Comes down to each individual whether they re-post.

Maybe you may want to ask POTUS - Trump reposts plenty of unverifiable posts as a matter of course.

blackcap
17-08-2020, 10:40 AM
I have listened to all the briefings and never heard or saw that written - sure that isn't fake news on its own and you just believe it because it suits you?
Be careful what you read and believe.

Media: And what kind of symptoms are the cases showing? Are they quite severe symptoms?
Dr Ashley Bloomfield: So the person who presented as the first case did have fever, a cough—you know, so quite noticeable symptoms. The partner of that person also had obvious symptoms—in fact, that preceded that of the case that we diagnosed first.

page 6 if you really must...11/8

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates

dobby41
17-08-2020, 10:49 AM
Wakey wakey - that’s how social media works - for sharing information and views.

Comes down to each individual whether they re-post. Look no further than Trump & Twitter.

Exactly - look no further than Trump and Twitter as to how false information gets spread so well.
You should know this given your avid dislike of Trump.

dobby41
17-08-2020, 10:52 AM
Media: And what kind of symptoms are the cases showing? Are they quite severe symptoms?
Dr Ashley Bloomfield: So the person who presented as the first case did have fever, a cough—you know, so quite noticeable symptoms. The partner of that person also had obvious symptoms—in fact, that preceded that of the case that we diagnosed first.

page 6 if you really must...11/8

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
Thanks - I didn't know where that information was stored.
So the 2nd case showed obvious symptoms before the 1st case.
Doesn't mean that the 2nd person was the 1st case which was where the poster on BFD was heading (if i read that correctly).

Balance
17-08-2020, 11:10 AM
Thanks - I didn't know where that information was stored.
So the 2nd case showed obvious symptoms before the 1st case.
Doesn't mean that the 2nd person was the 1st case which was where the poster on BFD was heading (if i read that correctly).

Observing how strident Hipkins was at decrying the post suggests an attempt to shut the discussion down.

Maybe he needs to have a word with his DPM who promoted the same scenario & posting? Wonder why Cindy & he did not. 🤔

dobby41
17-08-2020, 11:25 AM
Observing how strident Hipkins was at decrying the post suggests an attempt to shut the discussion down.

Maybe he needs to have a word with his DPM who promoted the same scenario & posting? Wonder why Cindy & he did not. ��

He did clarify his point that people needed to be careful what they read - there is so much rubbish out there.
As for Winnie - he's just being Winnie unfortunately. He wears many hats but the main one these days is for NZ1st - putting himself before NZ.

Balance
17-08-2020, 11:28 AM
He did clarify his point that people needed to be careful what they read - there is so much rubbish out there.
As for Winnie - he's just being Winnie unfortunately. He wears many hats but the main one these days is for NZ1st - putting himself before NZ.

And Labour is happy for Winnie to behave like that without saying a single word?

So much for the working coalition then - the one where Cindy says she trusts Winnie.

Anything to stay in power.

BTW - Hipkins was adamant that the post was an orchestrated attempt. If he is so sure, identify the culprits. I received the offending post, read it, thought it was possible, could be easily checked and waited for the media to start asking questions (which they did). Hipkins’ reaction was way over the top.

artemis
17-08-2020, 12:26 PM
The thing that gets me about all these insinuations that the Director General or a minister is lying, is it is never explained what the benefit is from the lie.

If the index case wasn’t really the index case, why was the lie told? It just becomes grand conspiracy after grand conspiracy with no explation of what the aim of the grand conspiracy was.

It also the usual anti-government conspiracy where they can’t organise their way out of a paper bag, but they can create a grand web of lies and no one from the MOH is blabbing to the media about this fabrication.

1. Lie about covid
2. ???????
3. Profit?

I very much doubt that Minister Hipkins is lying. Not deliberately anyway. Way too risky. But he might very well be using a carefully crafted statement. Not in itself a problem, becauses atm there seem to be many issues not fully determined on several fronts. And on the 'rumour' he picked out some bits and said they were false. He can't have said every single word was false because there was obviously some truth in the post even if someone out there read between the lines. To coin a phrase.

I guess there will be some information requests in the House and (more likely) OIA.

jonu
17-08-2020, 12:57 PM
The thing that gets me about all these insinuations that the Director General or a minister is lying, is it is never explained what the benefit is from the lie.

If the index case wasn’t really the index case, why was the lie told? It just becomes grand conspiracy after grand conspiracy with no explation of what the aim of the grand conspiracy was.

It also the usual anti-government conspiracy where they can’t organise their way out of a paper bag, but they can create a grand web of lies and no one from the MOH is blabbing to the media about this fabrication.

1. Lie about covid
2. ???????
3. Profit?

Has the concept of politicians covering their arse never occurred to you?

mikeybycrikey
17-08-2020, 01:18 PM
Has the concept of politicians covering their arse never occurred to you?

Politicians not 100% honest? Tell me it’s not true. I am just a naive soul.

i think my point was really in relation to the supposed lies of the past few days. That is that there were positive tests out there earlier but the government was covering it up, and that the index case was misidentified. And I guess also that the government knew there cases out there so was telling people to wear masks before announcing a positive case.

In all of those cases, I can’t see the benefit for the government. The risk of being found out is very high and there is no real benefit.

I’m certainly not saying that the government will never mislead or obfuscate, but outright lies about easily verifiable facts are going to be much less common.

Balance
17-08-2020, 07:19 PM
Politicians not 100% honest? Tell me it’s not true.

60% testing = ‘wasn’t completely accurate’ gives you an idea of how Chris Hipkins views honesty & the truth in matters of public safety & accountability.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12357320

"We were told several weeks ago that weekly testing of Jet Park staff was happening. It's clear that wasn't completely accurate," Hipkins said.

"That was advice that came from the Ministry of Health."

BUT

And he says he still has confidence in the Ministry of Health, even though he was wrongly told "several weeks ago" that staff managing positive cases at the Jet Park Hotel were being tested weekly.

Guess he doesn’t want anyone to question how his government has failed 95% (is not completely met) to deliver on the Huge 2017 Election Promises? 🤣

Balance
17-08-2020, 07:44 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122473901/coronavirus-ashley-bloomfield-blames-miscommunication-for-governments-frustration-over-tests

Good luck trying to get to the truth with this government - they only know spin when they stuff up.

Ardern on Thursday, at a press conference with Bloomfield, gave assurances workers at quarantine facilities were being tested weekly.

“If you work outside of that [quarantine facilities], it’s a slightly longer rotation but still frequent,” she said.

moka
17-08-2020, 10:51 PM
Media: And what kind of symptoms are the cases showing? Are they quite severe symptoms?
Dr Ashley Bloomfield: So the person who presented as the first case did have fever, a cough—you know, so quite noticeable symptoms. The partner of that person also had obvious symptoms—in fact, that preceded that of the case that we diagnosed first.

page 6 if you really must...11/8

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
Thank you blackcap great link, full of facts and information and not just opinion, a lot easier to read a transcript than listen to the Press Conferences at the time.

PRESS CONFERENCE: SUNDAY, 16 AUGUST 2020
Media: Minister, I just have a couple of questions. We must be around 100,000 tests now provided since 12 August. How are our stocks of the swabs? How many more days will we have them ready for?
Hon Chris Hipkins: So we had—I don’t think we’re quite at the 100,000 mark, but certainly we’re moving up exponentially at that kind of testing rate. When we began this, we had 280,000 test kits on hand ready to go, and, of course, we are moving them around if we need to, to make sure that they’re in the right place, and new supplies are added all of the time. So the director-general may have the latest update on supplies coming in, but we certainly don’t stop adding to the supply. We’ve continued to add to the supply as we use it.
Dr Ashley Bloomfield: The only other comment I will make is, as we found earlier in this outbreak, often the supply chains are—because the makers, particularly of the reagent, are balancing it right across the globe; so we’re not, sort of, allowed to carry hundreds of thousands of test supplies, but we had a very good stock and very good supply chains for all the different lab platforms and also the swabs.
Dr Ashley Bloomfield: We’ll just emphasise what the Minister said earlier on: sometimes it’s taking up to 48 hours to process the volume of tests. There is a backlog, and not surprising, given we have hit 100,000 since 1 August; so that’s a large volume of testing.
There’s then also the checking of the results, the processing, and the reporting back.

moka
17-08-2020, 11:09 PM
Two comments from letters to the editor re elections that I agree with.

We do not need to delay the election; the electorate are better off not hearing electioneering nonsense. We will make our decision based on past performance and credibility. Anyone who has experienced more than one electoral cycle will know that political promises before elections are not to be trusted: Show me the five new bridges in Northland. We should slow-clap the remnants as they leave the field.

Rob Muldoon once said after calling a snap election "It doesn't give my opponents much time either".

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356841&&ref=topbox

Balance
18-08-2020, 07:27 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122473901/coronavirus-ashley-bloomfield-blames-miscommunication-for-governments-frustration-over-tests

Good luck trying to get to the truth with this government - they only know spin when they stuff up.

Ardern on Thursday, at a press conference with Bloomfield, gave assurances workers at quarantine facilities were being tested weekly.

“If you work outside of that [quarantine facilities], it’s a slightly longer rotation but still frequent,” she said.

Here’s more spin for those who love being treated like sheep (& are sheep):

On Newshub this morning :

Cindy - We were the only country to have 102 days of zero communal spread cases.

Fact check - Taiwan has had no communal spread cases since 8 April, 127 days.



https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/taiwan-no-local-virus-transmission-for-over-100-days/1918669

Zaphod
18-08-2020, 08:47 AM
Two comments from letters to the editor re elections that I agree with.

We do not need to delay the election; the electorate are better off not hearing electioneering nonsense. We will make our decision based on past performance and credibility. Anyone who has experienced more than one electoral cycle will know that political promises before elections are not to be trusted: Show me the five new bridges in Northland. We should slow-clap the remnants as they leave the field.

Rob Muldoon once said after calling a snap election "It doesn't give my opponents much time either".

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356841&&ref=topbox

A highly simplistic analysis that fails to acknowledge the difficulty under the current set of circumstances in objectively evaluating performance of the various parties one can vote for.

greater fool
18-08-2020, 10:00 AM
Two comments from letters to the editor re elections that I agree with.

"Show me the five new bridges in Northland. "


Can you explain to me; how you expect a party in opposition to progress the building of bridges?

Sir Ten
18-08-2020, 10:32 AM
A useful attempt at evaluating the cost-benefit analysis of lockdowns. Doesn't profess to have "the" answer, but it does highlight the complete lack of similar analysis from those that should be expected to produce such analysis.

https://croakingcassandra.com/2020/08/14/?_cldee=bWF0dEBzdGFubGV5cG9pbnRjYXBpdGFsLmNvLm56&recipientid=contact-5aa93ea923fde6119406005056a36616-01ee647e30fb4aeab96747793c0f6216&esid=7e3aafb1-c3be-4ca3-befa-d52cc6ae3044

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayers/pages/13/attachments/original/1597378829/THE_COSTS_AND_BENEFITS_OF_A_COVID_LOCKDOWN-3.pdf?1597378829

Balance
18-08-2020, 12:01 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122479855/coronavirus-one-covid19-case-under-investigation-not-linked-to-cluster

Basic - compulsory testing of all frontline workers and government has been asleep as usual.

nztx
18-08-2020, 04:23 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122479855/coronavirus-one-covid19-case-under-investigation-not-linked-to-cluster

Basic - compulsory testing of all frontline workers and government has been asleep as usual.


I have long known that what has been seen of frontline testing being bandied about by Labour's Politizarani spinners wasn't what was happening - in fact very far from any excuse for what they were portraying. Ask any front line worker what they saw ..

Try also mingling of those from front line with others in various departments, which is & has been widespread as well.

The Basic GOVERNMENT FAIL is far larger & widespread than what is being unearthed now - believe me!

Read it on the face of HIPKINS every time he fronts the Camera & his trying to cover up for very obvious floundering around with glaring omissions right through many front line organisations.

If Govt think they are in control of things - then they are dreaming..

It's surprising the extent of overall fail hasn't resulted in far more serious consequences to this point in time.

jonu
18-08-2020, 04:25 PM
Our Minister of Bullshi**ery has spent 15 minutes at her craft this afternoon ducking and diving around what is obvious to everyone.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12357542

There we have our "Clear and Transparent" PM. Only the most gullible and naive would swallow that crock of sh** from Ardern

Collins is surprisingly underwhelming on her feet in the House. Though I suspect she is building a case to expose Ardern for what she is.

Balance
18-08-2020, 04:59 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12357481

Infected worker had cough, went through ‘health’ check but NOT virus test and allowed to work for 2 days before being tested properly.

Any sensible system would have any frontline staff showing any kind of symptoms be tested immediately - surely!

This government has learnt absolutely nothing from the first quarantine bungle - woman released from quarantine without testing (despite symptoms attributed to 'pre-existing' conditions) to go on compassionate grounds to Wellington.

Now they allow a frontline worker (most vulnerable to catching the virus) to continue working when he has symptoms attributed again to 'pre-existing' conditions!

blackcap
18-08-2020, 04:59 PM
Our Minister of Bullshi**ery has spent 15 minutes at her craft this afternoon ducking and diving around what is obvious to everyone.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12357542

There we have our "Clear and Transparent" PM. Only the most gullible and naive would swallow that crock of sh** from Ardern

Collins is surprisingly underwhelming on her feet in the House. Though I suspect she is building a case to expose Ardern for what she is.

Collins will be fishing. Just like Melissa Lee did with Clare Curran. Dont hit them straight away. Give them enough so that they step right into it and then WHAM.

Balance
18-08-2020, 05:46 PM
deleted deleted

jonu
18-08-2020, 05:48 PM
Collins will be fishing. Just like Melissa Lee did with Clare Curran. Dont hit them straight away. Give them enough so that they step right into it and then WHAM.

Had thought the same myself. seemingly innocuous questions leading to a bigger picture.

Sir Ten
18-08-2020, 05:52 PM
Genuine question - has anyone changed their view (or is anyone brave enough to admit it) on Covid (or any other political position - i.e. success/failure of current or previous government) based on what they've read on this forum?

Baa_Baa
18-08-2020, 06:07 PM
Genuine question - has anyone changed their view (or is anyone brave enough to admit it) on Covid (or any other political position - i.e. success/failure of current or previous government) based on what they've read on this forum?

Yes my views have changed, ShareTrader is a melting pot for diverse views and varying degrees of passive through strident discussion, few of whom will ever agree other than they have endless time available to harp into the Internet. Originally I thought it was about investing or trading the share market, whereas now it seems more a platform for the otherwise lonely and voiceless.

Balance
18-08-2020, 06:26 PM
Yes my views have changed, ShareTrader is a melting pot for diverse views and varying degrees of passive through strident discussion, few of whom will ever agree other than they have endless time available to harp into the Internet. Originally I thought it was about investing or trading the share market, whereas now it seems more a platform for the otherwise lonely and voiceless.

Eh - notice the title of the thread?

Sounds like you have been trying to catch snapper in the Waikato River. 🤣

It’s ok - understandable when your head is choked full of spin from Cindy.

This is where you go for discussions about investing or trading the market. https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/forumdisplay.php?5-NZX

Baa_Baa
18-08-2020, 06:35 PM
Eh - notice the title of the thread?

Sounds like you have been trying to catch snapper in the Waikato River. 🤣

It’s ok - understandable when your head is choked full of spin from Cindy.

This is where you go for discussions about investing or trading the market. https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/forumdisplay.php?5-NZX

Yeah nah, seems you lump anyone with a different view into the “sheep” camp whereas I wouldn’t give her the time of day. And you’re so rude about it.

Anyway, bless you have the time to be relentless, early morning to late at night, a lone wolf with no life outside your vitriolic bubble of hatred barking into the internet like anyone gives a toss what you think or say.

Surprised you took the bait first? Not.

moka
18-08-2020, 07:59 PM
Can you explain to me; how you expect a party in opposition to progress the building of bridges?
National weren't in opposition when they made the promise in 2015. Bridges didn't deliver the bridges.

But Transport Minister Simon Bridges reaffirmed his 2015 "10 Bridges" commitment to Northland and promised the bridges would be built - with one exception.
The promise to turn 10 one-way bridges in Northland into double-lane bridges was made during the 2015 byelection which saw NZ First's Winston Peters take the seat from National.
National lost the byelection but said it would stand by its promise to build bridges which had not been priority projects on NZTA's list of roading projects.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11919885

Balance
18-08-2020, 08:22 PM
Yeah nah, seems you lump anyone with a different view into the “sheep” camp whereas I wouldn’t give her the time of day. And you’re so rude about it.

Anyway, bless you have the time to be relentless, early morning to late at night, a lone wolf with no life outside your vitriolic bubble of hatred barking into the internet like anyone gives a toss what you think or say.

Surprised you took the bait first? Not.

You obviously have not heard of the phrase : ‘If you want something done, give it to a busy person.’

On that note, I will leave you to wonder about the meaning of your life.

Peace and love, hugs and be kind etc etc 😁

moka
18-08-2020, 10:52 PM
James Shaw speaking out strongly.
According to James Shaw, his political opponents were using Covid as an excuse to call for a delay.
“We have been incredibly disappointed to see the National and other small parties continue to use the weekend to bang on about what would suit them best politically when it comes to the election day date,” he said in a statement.
“Frankly, many New Zealanders would have heard loud and clear that these parties prioritise their potential electoral successes over the health of our communities, and the strength of our democratic institutions”.
Act leader David Seymour said in a Tweet that “delaying the election was the only option to ensure a free and fair contest”.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/17-08-2020/jacinda-ardern-delays-new-zealand-covid-election-by-four-weeks/

moka
18-08-2020, 10:55 PM
Alex Braae says - So as a final point, I don’t often go out of my way to praise individual politicians – quite the opposite in fact – and this is entirely my personal opinion. But I would like to give a word of support for the PM’s decision to delay the election. She has willingly risked the possibility of losing some of her partisan political advantage, and in doing so created fairer and more democratic conditions for all parties, and for voters. Not every politician in her position would have done the right thing like that.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/the-bulletin/18-08-2020/the-bulletin-reaction-to-the-election-delay/

moka
18-08-2020, 11:12 PM
Genuine question - has anyone changed their view (or is anyone brave enough to admit it) on Covid (or any other political position - i.e. success/failure of current or previous government) based on what they've read on this forum?
I haven’t changed my views, but I have expanded my knowledge thanks to those who post informative comments and useful links. I would have expected the discussion to be of a higher quality considering that many on here are well-educated and knowledgeable, own businesses or work at a high level in management or in a profession. Telling people they are stupid and calling them sheep if you disagree does not contribute to an intelligent discussion. Some people are not open-minded. And I think it is getting worse.

blackcap
19-08-2020, 06:25 AM
well that didn't last long:

8 August "When people ask, is this a COVID election, my answer is yes, it is."

18 August Newshub Headline: Clash with Collins: PM calls for politics to be taken 'out of the COVID-19 response'

Balance
19-08-2020, 06:36 AM
well that didn't last long:

8 August "When people ask, is this a COVID election, my answer is yes, it is."

18 August Newshub Headline: Clash with Collins: PM calls for politics to be taken 'out of the COVID-19 response'

Try the latest spin from Cindy & her team of incompetents now that Covid-19 is biting them on their bum :

‘The problem is the virus, not people. People is the solution.’

If anyone can make sense of this, please elaborate for those of us who cannot understand spin. 🤪

dobby41
19-08-2020, 06:56 AM
Try the latest spin from Cindy & her team of incompetents now that Covid-19 is biting them on their bum :

‘The problem is the virus, not people. People is the solution.’

If anyone can make sense of this, please elaborate for those of us who cannot understand spin. ��

You don't understand context do you?
That was said when people on social media were having a go at people with covid.
It had gotten to the point where just having a test made you a target.
The people aren't the problem - the virus is.
Simple enough for you?

PS - it is people ARE the solution.

jonu
19-08-2020, 07:22 AM
Didn't take long for Collins' line of questioning in the house to have found its mark

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122491340/coroonavirus-60pc-of-managed-isolation-staff-not-tested-up-until-last-week

Now Webb is further exposing Ardern's porkies in the House yesterday. His version in no way aligns with Ardern's.

blackcap
19-08-2020, 07:35 AM
Didn't take long for Collins' line of questioning in the house to have found its mark

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122491340/coroonavirus-60pc-of-managed-isolation-staff-not-tested-up-until-last-week

Now Webb is further exposing Ardern's porkies in the House yesterday. His version in no way aligns with Ardern's.

Jacinda is slowly but inexorably walking her way into a net that will result in Labour losing the upcoming election.

fungus pudding
19-08-2020, 08:26 AM
Jacinda is slowly but inexorably walking her way into a net that will result in Labour losing the upcoming election.

Not so. Labour will win easily thanks largely to Jacinda's charisma, which is pretty much all they have to offer.

blackcap
19-08-2020, 08:37 AM
Not so. Labour will win easily thanks largely to Jacinda's charisma, which is pretty much all they have to offer.

That charisma can also be eroded quickly and turn into something else if enough of the public start seeing through her B/S. Time will tell.

2 months is a long time in politics.

boysy
19-08-2020, 08:41 AM
Worked for Teflon John - mr smile wave and no substance, those nationalities on here screaming each day on this forum. If anyone is a paid troll across the political forums we know they are right of the mark and fairly unbalanced at present ....

fungus pudding
19-08-2020, 08:43 AM
That charisma can also be eroded quickly and turn into something else if enough of the public start seeing through her B/S. Time will tell.

2 months is a long time in politics.

It is, but adding to Labour's chances is Nat's appointment of Judith Collins.

greater fool
19-08-2020, 12:10 PM
Two comments from letters to the editor re elections that I agree with.

"Show me the five new bridges in Northland. "


Can you explain to me; how you expect a party in opposition to progress the building of bridges?

National weren't in opposition when they made the promise in 2015. Bridges didn't deliver the bridges.

But Transport Minister Simon Bridges reaffirmed his 2015 "10 Bridges" commitment to Northland and promised the bridges would be built - with one exception.
The promise to turn 10 one-way bridges in Northland into double-lane bridges was made during the 2015 byelection which saw NZ First's Winston Peters take the seat from National.
National lost the byelection but said it would stand by its promise to build bridges which had not been priority projects on NZTA's list of roading projects.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11919885

Fair enough. Five bridges proposed and constructed in the 2 years up to the election.
That's a useful baseline of your expectations.

Do you think the current administration has been successful in meeting that standard with respect to progress on some of their election policies?
How many trees? How many houses? Reductions in child poverty? Remuneration to teachers and nurses?

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2008/S00300/nzno-to-issue-strike-notice-but-says-action-easily-avoidable.html

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/thousands-of-primary-health-care-workers-to-strike-over-pay-parity.html

Balance
19-08-2020, 03:04 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12357808

Covid 19 coronavirus: Roger Partridge - The inconvenient questions over NZ's virus setback

Why weren't border staff tested?

It must have been obvious to him (Hipkins) from the results that border staff at airports, ports and managed isolation facilities were not being routinely tested. Why, then, did neither Ministers fail to act urgently to ensure the promised testing was carried out?

What about political accountability?

Hipkins' stance is like the chair of an airline admitting that routine maintenance was not carried out after a plane has crashed. An admission of responsibility would not satisfy the airline's customers, shareholders or the courts.

Is New Zealand's elimination strategy sustainable?

In the past week, the country has had a reality check. Like youth, eradication does not last forever. Instead, New Zealand faces spells of freedom, interrupted by unpredictable periods in lockdown. And with slim chances of an effective treatment or vaccine any time soon, the country risks its borders remaining closed to the rest of the world indefinitely.

Why is the alert level system still so blunt?

Auckland firms and workers doubtless breathed a sigh of relief on Friday evening when they heard the city would not face the full force of an alert level 4 lockdown.

But the alert level 3 restrictions are still extremely blunt. Rules that allow dairies to stay open, but not greengrocers, butchers or bakers are hard to understand.

They are also unnecessarily restrictive. And the restrictions matter. Auckland's lockdown will evaporate about a billion dollars of New Zealanders' incomes. A billion dollars is an abstract figure. But people will soon see the concrete effects playing out in job losses around New Zealand. Once again, the tourism and hospitality sectors will be hit hardest.

Balance
19-08-2020, 05:28 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300086077/heather-simpson-returns-to-spearhead-border-response-in-light-of-repeated-testing-failures

First David Clark, then Megan Woods, then Chris Hipkins and now Heather Woods.

Conclusive proof that Cindy is a government of incompetents.

jonu
19-08-2020, 06:00 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300086077/heather-simpson-returns-to-spearhead-border-response-in-light-of-repeated-testing-failures

First David Clark, then Megan Woods, then Chris Hipkins and now Heather Woods.

Conclusive proof that Cindy is a government of incompetents.

I think you mean Helen Clark's special friend Heather Simpson.

It's clear to anyone observing that Ardern hasn't a clue on how to develop policy and implement it. She is a master at painting a pretty picture and virtue signaling.

Interesting to note that only 24 hours after Collins and Brownlee's barb to the media to shake off the Cindy dust, the media are finally asking harder questions of the government. Yesterday they went off at Brownlee for suggesting they were soft on Ardern, and boy did they squeal. Methinks they did "doth protest too much".

blackcap
19-08-2020, 06:02 PM
At least its good to know that the transmission via frozen foods theory was debunked and was just a conspiracy after all...

jonu
19-08-2020, 06:21 PM
I thought it despicable of Ardern to lay blame at border and quarantine workers in the house yesterday (while at the same time saying she wasn't really blaming them). Webb laid her conceit bare when he pointed out testing hadn't been mandatory until Aug 12. It reminded me of her throwing clinicians under the bus when questions were asked about testing levels when we were at level 4.

The Military follow orders. Ardern and her government don't know how to give them. An obvious problem has been the lack of respect various Public Servants have given to their Ministers. They know under Cindy no one is held accountable.

Balance
19-08-2020, 07:26 PM
I thought it despicable of Ardern to lay blame at border and quarantine workers in the house yesterday (while at the same time saying she wasn't really blaming them). Webb laid her conceit bare when he pointed out testing hadn't been mandatory until Aug 12. It reminded me of her throwing clinicians under the bus when questions were asked about testing levels when we were at level 4.

The Military follow orders. Ardern and her government don't know how to give them. An obvious problem has been the lack of respect various Public Servants have given to their Ministers. They know under Cindy no one is held accountable.

Monkey 🐒 see, monkey 🐒🐒🐒🐒 do.

Accountability is definitely not in Cindy’s makeup - Phil Twyford at #4 says it all.

Balance
19-08-2020, 08:57 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122504833/coronavirus-the-covid19-border-testing-saga-thats-going-septic-amid-ministers-muddled-accounts

What a mess & muddle Cindy & her incompetents have made of border testing.

‘Tests were being offered to some workers, and some tests weren’t being taken. None of it was regular or routine, and Cabinet ministers were – for weeks – either blind to the problem or labouring under the belief their orders were being followed.‘

A government without a clue how to manage a simple quarantine border control system - that’s why Cindy’s team of incompetents have achieved or delivered bugger all of the huge promises they made in 2017.

moka
19-08-2020, 11:31 PM
Fair enough. Five bridges proposed and constructed in the 2 years up to the election.
That's a useful baseline of your expectations.

Do you think the current administration has been successful in meeting that standard with respect to progress on some of their election policies?
How many trees? How many houses? Reductions in child poverty? Remuneration to teachers and nurses?

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2008/S00300/nzno-to-issue-strike-notice-but-says-action-easily-avoidable.html

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/thousands-of-primary-health-care-workers-to-strike-over-pay-parity.html
Only two bridges completed as far as I am aware - Matakohe and Taipa. A third, the Kaeo Bridge is scheduled to start this year.
Kaeo Bridge - Oct 2020 – earthworks commence
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/connecting-northland/twin-coast-discovery-route/kaeo-bridge/

(https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/connecting-northland/twin-coast-discovery-route/kaeo-bridge/)I am disappointed with how little Labour has achieved, but I have high expectations.
Lots of obstacles to implementing policies e.g. coalition government, keeping the voters happy = capital gains/tax reform, and nimbyism with state housing.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/real-estate/119593887/heres-how-the-government-could-force-you-to-sell-your-house-for-state-housing
Infometrics chief forecaster Gareth Kiernan said it was a situation that had developed over an extended period of time.
"The supply of land available for housing has not been sufficient to meet demand, which has been a significant contributor to the worsening of housing affordability. However, zoning and development decisions by local councils have arguably been captured by existing homeowners, who benefit from this constrained supply via the increasing value of their properties," Kiernan said.
"Opposition to new developments from nimbies also typically far outweighs the number of people who are actively in support of the developments, particularly when intensification is involved.

moka
19-08-2020, 11:42 PM
Greens co-leader James Shaw has hit back at the earlier comments that referred to "gaping holes" at the border. He says, if this was the case, then Covid-19 would have reemerged a lot sooner among the thousands of people that have come back to NZ over the past few months.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300085666/live-government-faces-questions-after-ruling-it-exceeded-powers-in-first-nine-days-of-lockdown

moka
19-08-2020, 11:44 PM
The first list of notable nominees has been released for New Zealander of the Year.
There have been a “significant number” of nominations for Ashley Bloomfield, along with prime minister Jacinda Ardern and microbiologist Siouxsie Wiles.
The entire “Team of Five Million” has also, somehow, been nominated. How nice, pat yourself on the back.
“In this extraordinary year, we know that everyone has a hero,” Miriama Kamo, Te Koruru – Patron of Kiwibank New Zealander of the Year Awards said.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/19-08-2020/live-updates-august-19-rydges-case-second-border-breach-peters/

Balance
20-08-2020, 08:03 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122506262/i-own-that-health-minister-chris-hipkins-takes-covid19-testing-blunder-at-border-isolation-on-the-chin

New Zealander of the year - Chris Hipkins for being the first ever Cindy minister to accept accountability for stuffs up.

Zaphod
20-08-2020, 03:25 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122506262/i-own-that-health-minister-chris-hipkins-takes-covid19-testing-blunder-at-border-isolation-on-the-chin

New Zealander of the year - Chris Hipkins for being the first ever Cindy minister to accept accountability for stuffs up.

When he said it I thought I had misheard. A politician admitting something? He has no businesses being in government.

tim23
20-08-2020, 07:56 PM
Yeah nah, seems you lump anyone with a different view into the “sheep” camp whereas I wouldn’t give her the time of day. And you’re so rude about it.

Anyway, bless you have the time to be relentless, early morning to late at night, a lone wolf with no life outside your vitriolic bubble of hatred barking into the internet like anyone gives a toss what you think or say.

Surprised you took the bait first? Not.

Couldn't have put it better just wish I had wrote it!

tim23
20-08-2020, 07:58 PM
You obviously have not heard of the phrase : ‘If you want something done, give it to a busy person.’

On that note, I will leave you to wonder about the meaning of your life.

Peace and love, hugs and be kind etc etc 😁

Poor sport reply - Baa Baa fleeced you!

iceman
21-08-2020, 06:57 AM
Only two bridges completed as far as I am aware - Matakohe and Taipa. A third, the Kaeo Bridge is scheduled to start this year.
Kaeo Bridge - Oct 2020 – earthworks commence
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/connecting-northland/twin-coast-discovery-route/kaeo-bridge/

(https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/connecting-northland/twin-coast-discovery-route/kaeo-bridge/)I am disappointed with how little Labour has achieved, but I have high expectations.
Lots of obstacles to implementing policies e.g. coalition government, keeping the voters happy = capital gains/tax reform, and nimbyism with state housing.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/real-estate/119593887/heres-how-the-government-could-force-you-to-sell-your-house-for-state-housing
Infometrics chief forecaster Gareth Kiernan said it was a situation that had developed over an extended period of time.
"The supply of land available for housing has not been sufficient to meet demand, which has been a significant contributor to the worsening of housing affordability. However, zoning and development decisions by local councils have arguably been captured by existing homeowners, who benefit from this constrained supply via the increasing value of their properties," Kiernan said.
"Opposition to new developments from nimbies also typically far outweighs the number of people who are actively in support of the developments, particularly when intensification is involved.

Pretty good delivery isn't it !! How many roads or bridges have been started in the last 3 years, that were not approved and underway prior to Winnie installing the current Government ? Zero ? All good to talk about "shovel ready" projects that are not even off the design boards. Once again, the PM talking the talk but not walking the walk.

Balance
21-08-2020, 08:01 AM
Pretty good delivery isn't it !! How many roads or bridges have been started in the last 3 years, that were not approved and underway prior to Winnie installing the current Government ? Zero ? All good to talk about "shovel ready" projects that are not even off the design boards. Once again, the PM talking the talk but not walking the walk.

Bad enough to have Cindy & her incompetents talk the talk (kiwibuild is prime example) but not walking the walk - what is unforgivable is the total lack of progressive planning & implementation as so well demonstrated with this :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122501186/coronavirus-just-one-exposure-notification-has-been-sent-from-covid-tracer-app

"University of Otago professor of public health Nick Wilson has likened the Government’s persistence with the “extremely limited” app as “turning a pig’s ear into a [silk] purse” and that it displays “a poverty of imagination” from authorities."

100 so-called self-congratulatory communal transmission free days and that time might as well be flushed down the toilet as far as tackling another virus outbreak is concerned - because this government is simply incompetent.

jonu
21-08-2020, 12:20 PM
Ardern is currently speaking in her daily propaganda briefing. She asks us to imagine how bad the latest outbreak would have been if they hadn't gone to level 3.

More pertinent to realise we wouldn't have needed level 3 if she and her Cabinet of Incompetents hadn't misled us for weeks on what was happening at the border.

Gut churning. Keep talking Cindy. The nation's collective bile is rising in our throats at each sugar coated load of bollocks you spout.

blackcap
21-08-2020, 01:31 PM
Ardern is currently speaking in her daily propaganda briefing. She asks us to imagine how bad the latest outbreak would have been if they hadn't gone to level 3.

More pertinent to realise we wouldn't have needed level 3 if she and her Cabinet of Incompetents hadn't misled us for weeks on what was happening at the border.

Gut churning. Keep talking Cindy. The nation's collective bile is rising in our throats at each sugar coated load of bollocks you spout.

Remember this, that gut will churn even more? Jacinda is the definition of duplicitous. She comes accross so nice but underneath it all there is something. I cant quite put a finger on it but it is dark, murky and downright nasty.

Mr Patrick Gower: "Jacinda Ardern; you haven't been tested on these trust issues that Bill English has been confronted with, but if you are caught in a lie, or caught intentionally misleading the New Zealand public, how would you expect to be held to account?
Ms Jacinda Ardern: "Well, I actually believe that it is possible to exist in politics without lieing, and by telling the truth, I do believe that, and I have been in politics for nine years. Yes; politicians make mistakes but a true mark of leadership is whether you front those mistakes, uhm, be as transparent as possible with the public when you make them: that's the sign of good leadership."
Mr Gower: "You've never told a lie in politics?"
Ms Ardern: "No. No, and if I have made a mistake I've fronted it, and I'm going to make them in the future too; Paddy, let's be clear, but it's all about fronting them when you do."

moka
21-08-2020, 02:18 PM
Ardern is currently speaking in her daily propaganda briefing. She asks us to imagine how bad the latest outbreak would have been if they hadn't gone to level 3.

More pertinent to realise we wouldn't have needed level 3 if she and her Cabinet of Incompetents hadn't misled us for weeks on what was happening at the border.

Gut churning. Keep talking Cindy. The nation's collective bile is rising in our throats at each sugar coated load of bollocks you spout.
I find it frightening to see so much hostility directed at Ardern. Unfortunately we live in a culture where when something goes wrong it is okay to find a woman to blame, because it is acceptable to blame women, that is one of their roles to be scapegoats, so men can vent their outraged feelings against a target without being accountable. That’s why domestic violence is so high in New Zealand. Rather than dealing with your feelings in a healthy way, it is okay to vent them against someone you see as lower than you on the pecking order. With a rant, you release your feelings by abusing someone else, and that is not okay. Bullying is just normal behaviour that s excused, when it is directed against women politicians.

blackcap
21-08-2020, 02:26 PM
I find it frightening to see so much hostility directed at Ardern. Unfortunately we live in a culture where when something goes wrong it is okay to find a woman to blame, because it is acceptable to blame women, that is one of their roles to be scapegoats, so men can vent their outraged feelings against a target without being accountable. That’s why domestic violence is so high in New Zealand. Rather than dealing with your feelings in a healthy way, it is okay to vent them against someone you see as lower than you on the pecking order. With a rant, you release your feelings by abusing someone else, and that is not okay. Bullying is just normal behaviour that s excused, when it is directed against women politicians.

Whatever. . Gender has nothing to do with it. She gets the criticism because it is deserved. If It were Andrew Little as PM I am sure he would be getting the same amount of "abuse". (David ****liffe anyone?) Obama was a creep too. He gets as much as Jacinda does from my perspective.

moka
21-08-2020, 02:28 PM
Remember this, that gut will churn even more? Jacinda is the definition of duplicitous. She comes accross so nice but underneath it all there is something. I cant quite put a finger on it but it is dark, murky and downright nasty.
What you are doing is projecting onto Jacinda Ardern, the dark, murky and downright nasty feelings that you sometimes display on this forum. You deny your own dark, nasty feelings and see them in her. Try looking in the mirror at yourself rather than looking at Ardern with the magnifying glass for what you can’t quite put a finger on.

Balance
21-08-2020, 02:37 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/424064/live-covid-19-updates-in-nz-and-around-the-world-on-friday-21-august

Paywalled


Behind the scenes, Jacinda Ardern's surrogates use the strongest language to describe the accuracy of the Ministry of Health's briefings to ministers over recent weeks.

Had the Prime Minister not practically pinned a red rosette on Ashley Bloomfield over recent months, he may have been a useful fall guy for ministers' weak oversight.

Weak oversight? Try incompetence and attempts to use despicable PR spin to cover up failures to protect NZers.

jonu
21-08-2020, 02:40 PM
I find it frightening to see so much hostility directed at Ardern. Unfortunately we live in a culture where when something goes wrong it is okay to find a woman to blame, because it is acceptable to blame women, that is one of their roles to be scapegoats, so men can vent their outraged feelings against a target without being accountable. That’s why domestic violence is so high in New Zealand. Rather than dealing with your feelings in a healthy way, it is okay to vent them against someone you see as lower than you on the pecking order. With a rant, you release your feelings by abusing someone else, and that is not okay. Bullying is just normal behaviour that s excused, when it is directed against women politicians.

Absolute bollocks moka. Shame on you for pulling such a "Victim" stunt. This has nothing to do with Ardern being a woman.

How typical of the left to make it about identity politics. It's their go to default position.

It's about competency and dare I say it....transparency. Something Ardern is proving a master at clouding at every opportunity. Her cynicism and condescending arrogance has seen the beginning of her downfall.

dobby41
21-08-2020, 02:51 PM
Ardern is currently speaking in her daily propaganda briefing. She asks us to imagine how bad the latest outbreak would have been if they hadn't gone to level 3.

More pertinent to realise we wouldn't have needed level 3 if she and her Cabinet of Incompetents hadn't misled us for weeks on what was happening at the border.

Gut churning. Keep talking Cindy. The nation's collective bile is rising in our throats at each sugar coated load of bollocks you spout.
Unfortunately there is still no evidence that lack of adequate testing had anything to do with this outbreak.

Balance
21-08-2020, 02:53 PM
What you are doing is projecting onto Jacinda Ardern, the dark, murky and downright nasty feelings that you sometimes display on this forum. You deny your own dark, nasty feelings and see them in her. Try looking in the mirror at yourself rather than looking at Ardern with the magnifying glass for what you can’t quite put a finger on.

You must look in the mirror and see a sheep looking back at you?

jonu
21-08-2020, 03:01 PM
Unfortunately there is still no evidence that lack of adequate testing had anything to do with this outbreak.

If we truly had 100 days of no community transmission, the border is the only place it could have come from. Don't be fooled by the Americold distraction. Ardern even continued to bring that up today. Fudging and obscuring.....classic Ardern.

dobby41
21-08-2020, 03:34 PM
If we truly had 100 days of no community transmission, the border is the only place it could have come from. Don't be fooled by the Americold distraction. Ardern even continued to bring that up today. Fudging and obscuring.....classic Ardern.

Noone was distracted by Americold. It was but one possibility and needed to be eliminated and was.
There is still no evidence that the border staff testing mess had any impact on the current situation, whether it came in the border or not.
The strain in play has not been seen at the border for some time.

Balance
21-08-2020, 03:36 PM
Noone was distracted by Americold. It was but one possibility and needed to be eliminated and was.
There is still no evidence that the border staff testing mess had any impact on the current situation, whether it came in the border or not.
The strain in play has not been seen at the border for some time.

Ever heard about mutation?

jonu
21-08-2020, 03:48 PM
Noone was distracted by Americold. It was but one possibility and needed to be eliminated and was.
There is still no evidence that the border staff testing mess had any impact on the current situation, whether it came in the border or not.
The strain in play has not been seen at the border for some time.

If the border wasn't a problem, why did Ardern and her Cabinet of Incompetents jump like cut cats when the mess was exposed?

Balance
21-08-2020, 03:50 PM
Remember this, that gut will churn even more? Jacinda is the definition of duplicitous. She comes accross so nice but underneath it all there is something. I cant quite put a finger on it but it is dark, murky and downright nasty.

Mr Patrick Gower: "Jacinda Ardern; you haven't been tested on these trust issues that Bill English has been confronted with, but if you are caught in a lie, or caught intentionally misleading the New Zealand public, how would you expect to be held to account?
Ms Jacinda Ardern: "Well, I actually believe that it is possible to exist in politics without lieing, and by telling the truth, I do believe that, and I have been in politics for nine years. Yes; politicians make mistakes but a true mark of leadership is whether you front those mistakes, uhm, be as transparent as possible with the public when you make them: that's the sign of good leadership."
Mr Gower: "You've never told a lie in politics?"
Ms Ardern: "No. No, and if I have made a mistake I've fronted it, and I'm going to make them in the future too; Paddy, let's be clear, but it's all about fronting them when you do."

https://thebfd.co.nz/2019/09/14/jacinda-never-lies/

Actually, she is a compulsive liar.

peat
21-08-2020, 04:08 PM
Ever heard about mutation?

my understanding is that mutation would not prevent the genome from being identifiable.

still I'm not an epidemiologist or a geneticist but I saw them talking about the genomes and it struck that what they were saying was very much like blockchain!

dobby41
21-08-2020, 04:31 PM
Ever heard about mutation?

Yes
If you know about mutations you'd know that the current cluster is a mutation of a version we saw here some time ago but not like anything through the border recently.
So, what was your point?

Balance
21-08-2020, 04:45 PM
Yes
If you know about mutations you'd know that the current cluster is a mutation of a version we saw here some time ago but not like anything through the border recently.
So, what was your point?

Could be a new mutation.

This virus is such an unknown according to Cindy - that’s why the government is finding it hard to control without resorting to lockdowns each and every time if there’s an outbreak.

Like using aspirin for everything.

dobby41
21-08-2020, 04:52 PM
Could be a new mutation.

This virus is such an unknown according to Cindy

Could be, but not from anything that has crossed the border recently.
They don't mutate that far, and don't mutate backwards.
You're clutching.

jonu
21-08-2020, 04:59 PM
So where are things at with Ihumatao? How come Cindy's so quiet after throwing a spanner in the works for Fletchers?

She couldn't be scared about another Foreshore and Seabed debacle could she? Wouldn't want to lose those Maori seats. Or alienate a good proportion of the public if she craps all over the Treaty Settlement process. What a can of worms she opened.

Why is the media so subservient and not badgering her at least weekly?

boysy
21-08-2020, 05:28 PM
God National really must be flailing about with the vitriol on this forum - this forum is being overrun by what no doubt are angry pale male stale men - I suspect the next political poll will show how ineffective Collins and tin foil hat Brownlee are in the eyes of the majority of NZs.

jonu
21-08-2020, 05:34 PM
God National really must be flailing about with the vitriol on this forum - this forum is being overrun by what no doubt are angry pale male stale men - I suspect the next political poll will show how ineffective Collins and tin foil hat Brownlee are in the eyes of the majority of NZs.

More identity politics. Keep your racist, bigoted views to when the people you insult can look you in the eye. Oh and by the way...I didn't vote National last election.

The "vitriol" has been brought upon the Cynical One by her own actions. No one enjoys being bullshi**ed to, especially while the bullshi**ers are running up intergenerational debt.

westerly
21-08-2020, 05:48 PM
Whatever. . Gender has nothing to do with it. She gets the criticism because it is deserved. If It were Andrew Little as PM I am sure he would be getting the same amount of "abuse". (David ****liffe anyone?) Obama was a creep too. He gets as much as Jacinda does from my perspective.

What has Obama got to do with this thread? Or for that matter anything else connected to NZ politics
Calling any public figure a creep on line shows a complete lack of common decency in my opinion. If
that is the best you can do you haven't much of an argument.

westerly

jonu
21-08-2020, 06:04 PM
What has Obama got to do with this thread? Or for that matter anything else connected to NZ politics
Calling any public figure a creep on line shows a complete lack of common decency in my opinion. If
that is the best you can do you haven't much of an argument.

westerly

Methinks you're being a little precious westerly. Have a look at the US presidential thread for the comments thrown at Trump (a public figure) or closer to home, John Key. I agree, it would be nice if we could lift the bar, but with the standards being set by those meant to be leading us, the bar is low. Especially in terms of honesty and transparency with Ardern.

Her cynicism expressed by claiming the high ground while shafting the general populace will be her undoing. I'm happy to beat that drum. I consider it a national service (pun intended)

Balance
21-08-2020, 08:20 PM
So where are things at with Ihumatao? How come Cindy's so quiet after throwing a spanner in the works for Fletchers?

She couldn't be scared about another Foreshore and Seabed debacle could she? Wouldn't want to lose those Maori seats. Or alienate a good proportion of the public if she craps all over the Treaty Settlement process. What a can of worms she opened.

Why is the media so subservient and not badgering her at least weekly?

Push the Ihumatao controversy out past the election to keep the Maori vote onside and cynically, keep those who are extremely concerned about the removal of private land rights as well to one side.

And we are supposed to trust her to do the right thing for all New Zealanders?

Team of 5 million?

moka
21-08-2020, 08:45 PM
More identity politics. Keep your racist, bigoted views to when the people you insult can look you in the eye. Oh and by the way...I didn't vote National last election.

The "vitriol" has been brought upon the Cynical One by her own actions. No one enjoys being bullshi**ed to, especially while the bullshi**ers are running up intergenerational debt.
You say “Keep your racist, bigoted views to when the people you insult can look you in the eye.” Perhaps you could take your own advice and not insult Jacinda Ardern here on Sharetrader, as I doubt that you are looking her in the eye. Or don’t you think the rules apply to you, only to others.

You say “the "vitriol" has been brought upon the Cynical One by her own actions.” Very stereotypical response, i.e. she deserved it, she provoked me, as in “she provoked me to hit her.” The focus is on what she did as an excuse for your behaviour.

jonu
22-08-2020, 09:38 AM
You say “Keep your racist, bigoted views to when the people you insult can look you in the eye.” Perhaps you could take your own advice and not insult Jacinda Ardern here on Sharetrader, as I doubt that you are looking her in the eye. Or don’t you think the rules apply to you, only to others.

You say “the "vitriol" has been brought upon the Cynical One by her own actions.” Very stereotypical response, i.e. she deserved it, she provoked me, as in “she provoked me to hit her.” The focus is on what she did as an excuse for your behaviour.

More turn Ardern into a victim stunts

My "insulting" of Ardern is merely calling her out for her actions. I make no link to her being a woman or her race. If boysy wants to challenge my arguments he (presumably) is welcome to do so. I welcome a contest of ideas. I confronted boysy on racism and bigotry. Very different kettle of fish.

Now we have moka repeatedly playing the victim card on Ardern's behalf. It would seem moka attended the same virtue signalling PR courses that Ardern did. You don't work in her office by any chance?

Balance
22-08-2020, 09:51 AM
More turn Ardern into a victim stunts

My "insulting" of Ardern is merely calling her out for her actions. I make no link to her being a woman or her race. If boysy wants to challenge my arguments he (presumably) is welcome to do so. I welcome a contest of ideas. I confronted boysy on racism and bigotry. Very different kettle of fish.

Now we have moka repeatedly playing the victim card on Ardern's behalf. It would seem moka attended the same virtue signalling PR courses that Ardern did. You don't work in her office by any chance?

You hit the nail on the head.

The Labourites here would like everyone to view Cindy as a trustworthy, transparent, fair and saintly female & mother (which her PR spin has successfully cultivated) and so any less than flattering comments on her constitute attacks on her as a vulnerable female and her virtues.

Freaking heck - she is a politician and her track record shows she is as grubby as they come.

Remember that Evita Peron successfully cultivated a saintly image with the majority of Argentinians, especially the poor, and proceeded to contribute to what is an economic wreck of a country.

Balance
22-08-2020, 12:18 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12358696

Maskless protestors against the lockdown in Auckland show their middle finger to the government and the police.

Let’s see what happens with this blatant challenge to the so called team of 5 million.

RupertBear
22-08-2020, 01:42 PM
You hit the nail on the head.

The Labourites here would like everyone to view Cindy as a trustworthy, transparent, fair and saintly female & mother (which her PR spin has successfully cultivated) and so any less than flattering comments on her constitute attacks on her as a vulnerable female and her virtues.

Freaking heck - she is a politician and her track record shows she is as grubby as they come.

Remember that Evita Peron successfully cultivated a saintly image with the majority of Argentinians, especially the poor, and proceeded to contribute to what is an economic wreck of a country.

I think you will find a heck of a lot of people on the streets think exactly that Balance. She has a pretty big fan base, people queue on the street just to see her, she is still pretty darn popular our Jacinda

Balance
23-08-2020, 07:24 AM
I think you will find a heck of a lot of people on the streets think exactly that Balance. She has a pretty big fan base, people queue on the street just to see her, she is still pretty darn popular our Jacinda

The same was true of Mao Tze Tung & Hitler, remember?

Balance
23-08-2020, 07:26 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122511882/big-little-lies-getting-to-the-facts-in-new-zealands-border-failures

“My advice to everybody is: if you hear it here at 1 o’clock, it means that it’s true.” - Health Minister Chris Hipkins, August 15.

Yup - this government would like you to believe that they are the only purveyors of truths.

As manipulative & grubby in politics as they come but obviously succeeding given the number of sheep we see mouthing the same propaganda here!

Bjauck
23-08-2020, 08:07 AM
It is interesting that Ardern has a great relationship with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who is from a centre-right Party. However these days, with the rise of the populist right wingers including Johnson (UK) and Trump (USA) amongst others, the more traditional leaders on left and right have more in common.

Post Brexit, it could probably be Germany that will be NZ's key relationship in Europe

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300088825/i-was-gutted-jacinda-ardern-on-her-moment-of-despondency-over-covid19-and-the-words-from-a-world-leader-that-helped

jonu
23-08-2020, 08:24 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122511882/big-little-lies-getting-to-the-facts-in-new-zealands-border-failures

“My advice to everybody is: if you hear it here at 1 o’clock, it means that it’s true.” - Health Minister Chris Hipkins, August 15.

Yup - this government would like you to believe that they are the only purveyors of truths.

As manipulative & grubby in politics as they come but obviously succeeding given the number of sheep we see mouthing the same propaganda here!

Good to see a journalist actually doing some journalism, rather than repeating government press releases. Cindy "I will never lie to you" Ardern exposed for all to see.

RupertBear
23-08-2020, 09:31 AM
The same was true of Mao Tze Tung & Hitler, remember?

Hitler was behind the extermination of millions of people. Constantly comparing Jacindas popularity to Hitler is vile and offensive and says a lot about the sort of man you are. Nasty.

Why dont you run off and join The New Conservative party as their views seem perfectly aligned with yours.

Balance
23-08-2020, 09:38 AM
Hitler was behind the extermination of millions of people. Constantly comparing Jacindas popularity to Hitler is vile and offensive and says a lot about the sort of man you are. Nasty.

Why dont you run off and join The New Conservative party as their views seem perfectly aligned with yours.

Chill, RupertBear.

The issue is that popularity does not necessarily = effective government.

Don’t you dare twist the issue into yet another cry of victimisation of Cindy.

Go take and take your medication.

RupertBear
23-08-2020, 09:39 AM
The same was true of Mao Tze Tung & Hitler, remember?

As others have said numerous times, dont feed the troll, so back on ignore you go. Cant reason with narrow minded people so pointless engaging with them.

Looking forward to seeing Jacinda on the telly again tomorrow. Love watching her speak, clever articulate woman :D

RupertBear
23-08-2020, 09:44 AM
Chill, RupertBear.

The issue is that popularity does not necessarily = effective government.

Don’t you dare twist the issue into yet another cry of victimisation of Cindy.

Go take and take your medication.

I’m chilled as Balance, No need for medication its a lovely sunny day here in Central Otago.

Have no idea how my post against your vile comparison to Hitler is a cry of victimisation of Jacinda. Sometime I have no idea what you are on about. Jacinda is definitely not a victim, She is a strong capable woman.:)

Balance
23-08-2020, 09:50 AM
I’m chilled as Balance, No need for medication its a lovely sunny day here in Central Otago.

Have no idea how my post against your vile comparison to Hitler is a cry of victimisation of Jacinda. Sometime I have no idea what you are on about. Jacinda is definitely not a victim, She is a strong capable woman.:)

Yup - strong capable woman who has Labourite posters here defending her whenever she is showed up to be the show pony she is.

Something about her being a woman etc etc and that’s the only reason why she is being held to account for her spin, government incompetence and failures to deliver on the huge promises made in 2017 to get elected.

She is a politician and a particularly cynical but effective one at that in terms of hoodwinking a lot of the sheep out there.

iceman
23-08-2020, 10:07 AM
Even the Lefties are getting tired of the PM's childish and empty slogans https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300085193/jacinda-i-like-you-but-please-shut-up-about-the-team-of-five-million

Balance
23-08-2020, 11:18 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12358777

Dragging the civil service into Labour’s election campaign - Cindy shows no shame and integrity.

fungus pudding
23-08-2020, 11:26 AM
Even the Lefties are getting tired of the PM's childish and empty slogans https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300085193/jacinda-i-like-you-but-please-shut-up-about-the-team-of-five-million

I have to agree -- the 'team of five hundred' is puke-making at its most effective.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/08/20/the-deification-of-jacinda/

boysy
23-08-2020, 11:45 AM
Sir bob jones enough said ..... the grey power pale male and stale brigade is out in force on this thread again. Thank god these people live in an echo chamber and it would appear they continue to remain a small but very vocal minority in the community.

Most people I have spoken with don’t mind being referred to as a collective but let’s have some faux outrage for the sake of it why don’t we .....

Bjauck
23-08-2020, 12:27 PM
I have to agree -- the 'team of five hundred' is puke-making at its most effective.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/08/20/the-deification-of-jacinda/

Thanks for the link. I was not a great fan of Bob Jones, but the article actually was a good read.

Balance
23-08-2020, 12:51 PM
Sir bob jones enough said ..... the grey power pale male and stale brigade is out in force on this thread again. Thank god these people live in an echo chamber and it would appear they continue to remain a small but very vocal minority in the community.

Most people I have spoken with don’t mind being referred to as a collective but let’s have some faux outrage for the sake of it why don’t we .....

Most people = the sheep looking back at you in the mirror? 🤣

dobby41
23-08-2020, 01:13 PM
Good to see a journalist actually doing some journalism, rather than repeating government press releases. Cindy "I will never lie to you" Ardern exposed for all to see.

It's an opinion piece - not journalism.

Balance
23-08-2020, 03:56 PM
It's an opinion piece - not journalism.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122536512/coronavirus-aucklanders-crowd-skate-parks-basketball-courts-ignoring-level-3-rules

This is the middle finger to the lockdown restrictions by Aucklanders.

Police nowhere to be seen .

RupertBear
23-08-2020, 04:01 PM
Even the Lefties are getting tired of the PM's childish and empty slogans https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300085193/jacinda-i-like-you-but-please-shut-up-about-the-team-of-five-million

An opinion piece by Polly Gillespie :eek2: OMG really :lol:

tim23
23-08-2020, 04:34 PM
Hitler was behind the extermination of millions of people. Constantly comparing Jacindas popularity to Hitler is vile and offensive and says a lot about the sort of man you are. Nasty.

Why dont you run off and join The New Conservative party as their views seem perfectly aligned with yours.

So right the Hitler comparisons are vile and should invoke a sin binning in my opinion for a perennial bad sport and that could go for Jonah too

tim23
23-08-2020, 04:38 PM
https://thebfd.co.nz/2019/09/14/jacinda-never-lies/

Actually, she is a compulsive liar.

Are you serious? And you are a compulsive personal abuser of others on this site that you have never met - weird.

blackcap
23-08-2020, 05:22 PM
Sir bob jones enough said ..... the grey power pale male and stale brigade is out in force on this thread again. Thank god these people live in an echo chamber and it would appear they continue to remain a small but very vocal minority in the community.

Most people I have spoken with don’t mind being referred to as a collective but let’s have some faux outrage for the sake of it why don’t we .....

No need to be racist and ageist while you are at it.

jonu
23-08-2020, 05:57 PM
Here's what happens when Jacinda gets the bit between those chompers.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300087950/coronavirus-pms-abuse-of-power-during-lockdown-a-warning-to-us-all

I figure it would be worthy of an apology to the nation. Perhaps she could even use her daily propaganda briefing. Have I missed it?

boysy
23-08-2020, 06:15 PM
Here's what happens when Jacinda gets the bit between those chompers.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300087950/coronavirus-pms-abuse-of-power-during-lockdown-a-warning-to-us-all

I figure it would be worthy of an apology to the nation. Perhaps she could even use her daily propaganda briefing. Have I missed it?

The absolute irony is the author is no other than a convicted fraudster with plenty of baggage ..... falls into the pale male stale category, no doubt a through and through act/nat lifer wouldn't exactly expect to see him singing JA praises.

Of course his business interests and being a large player in the insolvency business (which has been hugely affected by recently passed legislation) has nothing to do with his faux outrage ..... no interest like self interest for the righties

moka
23-08-2020, 06:29 PM
Jacinda is still popular despite testing short-comings.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-08-2020/exclusive-new-poll-how-have-testing-issues-and-the-new-outbreak-affected-public-confidence/
How badly have the outbreak and the testing shortcomings – artfully described by Ashley Bloomfield as a “dissonance” – hurt support for the government’s response to the public health crisis? The short answer: hardly at all.
The seventh and latest poll by Stickybeak for The Spinoff, which began surveying last Sunday August 16 and ran until Friday August 21, reveals that 75% are positive about the government’s response to Covid-19 – the same figure as the last poll, conducted in mid-June.
As such there will be relief for Labour that, while the number with a negative view of the response is the highest to date – 15% – it remains that three in four people continue to support for the government approach.
National’s release last week of its border security policy, is yet to win the public over, with 64% disapproving of the National response to Covid-19.
77% supported the latest alert level changes.
Today, with Megan Woods and Digby Webb taking ministerial and operational responsibility for overseeing the system, the number lacking confidence has dropped to 24% from 40%.
Elimination strategy - 78% supported it and 22% opposed. Almost one in five, however, were unsure.