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RupertBear
23-08-2020, 06:42 PM
Jacinda is still popular despite testing short-comings.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-08-2020/exclusive-new-poll-how-have-testing-issues-and-the-new-outbreak-affected-public-confidence/
How badly have the outbreak and the testing shortcomings – artfully described by Ashley Bloomfield as a “dissonance” – hurt support for the government’s response to the public health crisis? The short answer: hardly at all.
The seventh and latest poll by Stickybeak for The Spinoff, which began surveying last Sunday August 16 and ran until Friday August 21, reveals that 75% are positive about the government’s response to Covid-19 – the same figure as the last poll, conducted in mid-June.
As such there will be relief for Labour that, while the number with a negative view of the response is the highest to date – 15% – it remains that three in four people continue to support for the government approach.
National’s release last week of its border security policy, is yet to win the public over, with 64% disapproving of the National response to Covid-19.
77% supported the latest alert level changes.
Today, with Megan Woods and Digby Webb taking ministerial and operational responsibility for overseeing the system, the number lacking confidence has dropped to 24% from 40%.
Elimination strategy - 78% supported it and 22% opposed. Almost one in five, however, were unsure.

Those are pretty conclusive figures. 75% are positive about the governments response To Covid 19 and 3 out of 4 people continue to support the governments approach. Thats impressive :D

Balance
23-08-2020, 06:46 PM
Those are pretty conclusive figures. 75% are positive about the governments response To Covid 19 and 3 out of 4 people continue to support the governments approach. Thats impressive :D

Sheep are like that.

Balance
23-08-2020, 07:05 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12358858

Du Fresne's argument about the border testing failures is worth reading at length: "On one level this can be dismissed as simple incompetence, but it goes far beyond that.

People might be willing to excuse incompetence up to a point, but they are not so ready – and neither should they be – to forgive spin, deception and dissembling.

Misinformation can't be blithely excused as a clumsy misstep, still less as "dissonance" (to use Bloomfield's creative English).

On the contrary, if misinformation is deliberate then it raises critical issues of trust and transparency."

moka
23-08-2020, 07:50 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12358777

Dragging the civil service into Labour’s election campaign - Cindy shows no shame and integrity.
I find it a bit ironic that David Seymour who advocates free speech complaining about an update on the Labour Party Facebook page, described as an ad in the article, but as an update by the spokesperson.

"The video is an update on the Government's Covid response and specifically the work ESR and the national contract tracing team has been doing," she said.
Act leader David Seymour described the ad as scandalous and said no public servants should be used to help political parties campaign.
We still have photos, videos in the news media of the Jacinda (politician) and Ashley (public servant) show so where does it cross the line? He is nit-picking in my opinion. Politician' visits to schools, hospitals, and government departments are generally considered news, not advertising. And it wouldn’t matter if Jacinda was trailing in the polls, it would be just business as usual.
ACT says the Government should use the Ministry of Health to fight Covid-19, not an election campaign. It is a Covid election.

jonu
23-08-2020, 07:53 PM
The absolute irony is the author is no other than a convicted fraudster with plenty of baggage ..... falls into the pale male stale category, no doubt a through and through act/nat lifer wouldn't exactly expect to see him singing JA praises.

Of course his business interests and being a large player in the insolvency business (which has been hugely affected by recently passed legislation) has nothing to do with his faux outrage ..... no interest like self interest for the righties

Perhaps you might like to critique his article rather than attack his "identity". Not one attempt by you to actually refute his arguments. Something of a pattern emerging from boysy.

jonu
23-08-2020, 07:59 PM
I find it a bit ironic that David Seymour who advocates free speech complaining about an update on the Labour Party Facebook page, described as an ad in the article, but as an update by the spokesperson.

"The video is an update on the Government's Covid response and specifically the work ESR and the national contract tracing team has been doing," she said.
Act leader David Seymour described the ad as scandalous and said no public servants should be used to help political parties campaign.
We still have photos, videos in the news media of the Jacinda (politician) and Ashley (public servant) show so where does it cross the line? He is nit-picking in my opinion. Politician' visits to schools, hospitals, and government departments are generally considered news, not advertising. And it wouldn’t matter if Jacinda was trailing in the polls, it would be just business as usual.
ACT says the Government should use the Ministry of Health to fight Covid-19, not an election campaign. It is a Covid election.

So why did Labour pull it from view to edit then?

The points you make about the daily propaganda briefings ironically reinforce the scandalous politicisation by the Ardern government. They/we have become so used to it the lines have been blurred.

jonu
23-08-2020, 08:05 PM
This from Bryce Edwards


Meanwhile, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has been both blaming the workers themselves for not being tested (“We have picked up on reluctance among staff”) as well as saying that the Government hadn’t been kept informed of the problem. According to Tim Watkin, “Both can’t be true. If the Prime Minister was being briefed about reluctant staff, she knew that not everyone on the border was being tested and that the statements she and her ministers were making about all frontline workers being tested were false. For a politician whose reputation is based on trust and who has said she would never lie, it’s been a damaging week” – see: Test Fail: Is Labour bordering on trouble?


The drums are beating. The lies being exposed.

RupertBear
23-08-2020, 08:34 PM
I suspect HEAPS of people out there have never heard of Bryce Edwards. I also suspect HEAPS of people out there never read that sort of stuff, nor will they, ever.

I suspect whats more important to people is what they see with their very own eyes and what they hear with their very own ears. It appears from the polls a large majority of people like what they see and like what they hear

The drums are silent.

Balance
23-08-2020, 08:43 PM
I suspect HEAPS of people out there have never heard of Bryce Edwards. I also suspect HEAPS of people out there never read that sort of stuff, nor will they, ever.

I suspect whats more important to people is what they see with their very own eyes and what they hear with their very own ears. It appears from the polls a large majority of people like what they see and like what they hear

The drums are silent.

The sheep are oblivious to their fate.

moka
23-08-2020, 09:16 PM
Perhaps you might like to critique his article rather than attack his "identity". Not one attempt by you to actually refute his arguments. Something of a pattern emerging from boysy.
Boysy was refuting his arguments by pointing out his background - an identity that wouldn’t expect to see him singing Jacinda’s praises. And Damian Grant doesn’t sing her praises – “Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern used her bully pulpit to issue a slew of orders that were outside her remit.’
Very strong language, when the court said there is no question that the requirement was a necessary, reasonable and and proportionate response to the Covid19 crisis at that time.

The article starts out “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”. The article is a personal attack against Ardern, because he sees her as too powerful, and in his opinion she needs to be cut down in size and know her place, and he will twist information to prove his point.

moka
23-08-2020, 11:37 PM
So why did Labour pull it from view to edit then?

The points you make about the daily propaganda briefings ironically reinforce the scandalous politicisation by the Ardern government. They/we have become so used to it the lines have been blurred.
So why did Labour edit it? I would say for the same reason that conspiracy theories work, sow a seed of doubt or an idea and some people accept it as the truth.
I think you and David Seymour are getting a bit hysterical and over-reacting when you describe the situation as scandalous. There are political scandals and this is not one of them.
One of the scandalous pictures is still on David Seymour’s Facebook page. How come he can display it and not the Labour Party? Free speech for him and not for Jacinda? Or on his Facebook page it reinforces a negative view of the Prime Minister, so that is okay? Same picture, different meaning in a different context.
https://www.facebook.com/davidseymourACT/

RupertBear
23-08-2020, 11:45 PM
The sheep are oblivious to their fate.

You are so predictable Balance, yet another post bleating on about sheep :rolleyes::rolleyes: I think you suffer from perseveration. :lol::lol:


So you clearly think the majority of NZers are clueless, unable to think for themselves and willing to blindly follow others into oblivion? In thinking that you reek of arrogance and you do the majority of NZers an injustice.

Just because someone holds a different opinion to you doesnt make them dum or stupid or blind to what is going on. We are all entitled to our opinions and some of us actually respect people for having a different opinion. Its called tolerance. Calling people sheep because they hold an opinion thats different to yours is a form of intolerance.

oh and apparently sheep are quite intelligent so maybe its not such an insult after all :D

moka
24-08-2020, 12:05 AM
https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/08/20/the-deification-of-jacinda/
Bob Jones talking about identity politics in the article. He said “Muldoon was very popular but he never struck the same connect with the other sex, which I suspect is also true of Jacinda.”

Bjauck
24-08-2020, 07:08 AM
Bob Jones talking about identity politics in the article. He said “Muldoon was very popular but he never struck the same connect with the other sex, which I suspect is also true of Jacinda.” Ardern may well be more popular with Women, however Bob Jones is drawing a tenuous connection to link that to the scale of Muldoon's disconnect.

If there is a disconnect on the part of Ardern, it was schism with Muldoon. Muldoon was toxic and aggressive. I would have said Muldoon's "disconnect" extended to misogyny as well as homophobia, as contemporary National MP Marilyn Waring and Labour MP Colin Moyle would no doubt attest. More bigotry was generally found throughout NZ society.

jonu
24-08-2020, 07:34 AM
I suspect HEAPS of people out there have never heard of Bryce Edwards. I also suspect HEAPS of people out there never read that sort of stuff, nor will they, ever.

I suspect whats more important to people is what they see with their very own eyes and what they hear with their very own ears. It appears from the polls a large majority of people like what they see and like what they hear

The drums are silent.

So if enough people are ignorant of the facts Cindy is OK....you'll turn a blind eye to her continually misleading the NZ public she is in office to serve.

jonu
24-08-2020, 07:36 AM
So why did Labour edit it? I would say for the same reason that conspiracy theories work, sow a seed of doubt or an idea and some people accept it as the truth.
I think you and David Seymour are getting a bit hysterical and over-reacting when you describe the situation as scandalous. There are political scandals and this is not one of them.
One of the scandalous pictures is still on David Seymour’s Facebook page. How come he can display it and not the Labour Party? Free speech for him and not for Jacinda? Or on his Facebook page it reinforces a negative view of the Prime Minister, so that is okay? Same picture, different meaning in a different context.
https://www.facebook.com/davidseymourACT/

Seymour's use of the image is exposition. Labour's is propaganda. I'm no fan of David Seymour, but he has been effective in Opposition.

Balance
24-08-2020, 08:07 AM
Seymour's use of the image is exposition. Labour's is propaganda. I'm no fan of David Seymour, but he has been effective in Opposition.

Certainly more effective than National has been and still is.

westerly
24-08-2020, 08:52 AM
Seymour's use of the image is exposition. Labour's is propaganda. I'm no fan of David Seymour, but he has been effective in Opposition.

He reminds me of Mr Bean, but is not as funny.

westerly

Balance
24-08-2020, 09:25 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12358629

Really? The infected family has saved lives?

Spin and more spin - anything to get votes.

Wonder if she is going to sort out the Ihumatao stand-off anytime soon?

artemis
24-08-2020, 10:03 AM
..... Wonder if she is going to sort out the Ihumatao stand-off anytime soon?

Well I wonder if the Prime Minister regrets interfering. Although it is not top of most people's mind these days, I predict when a resolution is announced there will be quite a serious reaction slowly building. Especially when the amount of taxpayer dosh to Fletchers is revealed, dosh to not build housing, under wraps until after the election. Though with the election date extended now, the decision could be announced as apparently it has been made (maybe).

A running sore in the making. If returned there will be many eyes watching to see how it is developed, given there is not going to be much cash to achieve the ambitious plans talked about.

jonu
24-08-2020, 10:23 AM
Well I wonder if the Prime Minister regrets interfering. Although it is not top of most people's mind these days, I predict when a resolution is announced there will be quite a serious reaction slowly building. Especially when the amount of taxpayer dosh to Fletchers is revealed, dosh to not build housing, under wraps until after the election. Though with the election date extended now, the decision could be announced as apparently it has been made (maybe).

A running sore in the making. If returned there will be many eyes watching to see how it is developed, given there is not going to be much cash to achieve the ambitious plans talked about.

Ihumatao is another monumental Labour cockup. They let it become a focal point for the grievance industry and then Ardern foolishly threw in her ill thought out 2 cents worth. She really is an intellectual light weight and you have to wonder about the quality of the policy wonks she has around her. She's screwed which ever decision they make now. Settle and she does irreparable damage to the Treaty Settlement process. Walks away and she has another Seabed and Foreshore on her hands. Classic case of snookering herself.

It never would have developed into this standoff when Finlayson was Minister of Treaty Settlements. He would have nipped it in the bud early and exposed Pania Newton's lack of standing on that ground.

Balance
24-08-2020, 11:04 AM
Ihumatao is another monumental Labour cockup. They let it become a focal point for the grievance industry and then Ardern foolishly threw in her ill thought out 2 cents worth. She really is an intellectual light weight and you have to wonder about the quality of the policy wonks she has around her. She's screwed which ever decision they make now. Settle and she does irreparable damage to the Treaty Settlement process. Walks away and she has another Seabed and Foreshore on her hands. Classic case of snookering herself.

It never would have developed into this standoff when Finlayson was Minister of Treaty Settlements. He would have nipped it in the bud early and exposed Pania Newton's lack of standing on that ground.

NZ and future generations are going to pay BIG time for all the purely politically motivated but inept decisions made by Cindy & her team of incompetents.

Ihumatao is but one example.

The grievance industry has been given a massive lift by the haphazard decision making on Ihumatao and we can be sure that there will be plenty more to follow.

Housing is but another example which will become clearer post election.

Informed housing & industry players are busy taking advantage of the 'mega billion dollar thrown at development opportunities' provided by Megan Woods & Kainga Ora - future generations will pay so you better get your share to take care of your own future generations. Otherwise, they will pay big time.

jonu
24-08-2020, 04:45 PM
NZ and future generations are going to pay BIG time for all the purely politically motivated but inept decisions made by Cindy & her team of incompetents.

Ihumatao is but one example.

The grievance industry has been given a massive lift by the haphazard decision making on Ihumatao and we can be sure that there will be plenty more to follow.

Housing is but another example which will become clearer post election.

Informed housing & industry players are busy taking advantage of the 'mega billion dollar thrown at development opportunities' provided by Megan Woods & Kainga Ora - future generations will pay so you better get your share to take care of your own future generations. Otherwise, they will pay big time.

Funny how the usual suspects aren't engaging on Ihumatao. Ticking timebomb for the Cynical One.

artemis
24-08-2020, 05:26 PM
Funny how the usual suspects aren't engaging on Ihumatao. Ticking timebomb for the Cynical One.

There has not been much public support for Ms Ardern's very silly Ihumatao decision, apart from those who expect a waterfall of assets to fall right into their pockets. While others might be bemused and perhaps a bit disquieted, for most people concepts such as property rights and the Rule of Law are distant abstractions unless on the offchance they come close to home.

If perchance we have a National led government in October Ms Collins has said any deal will be cancelled. That would disappoint Fletchers as what chance the company would be in the slightest bit interested in continued ownership? They'd be in line for compo though. Send the bill to Ms Ardern and Ms Newton.

Balance
24-08-2020, 06:38 PM
Funny how the usual suspects aren't engaging on Ihumatao. Ticking timebomb for the Cynical One.

Impossible for them to defend the indefensible and to spin their way out of this racial, constitutional & private property right mess created because Cindy's instinct was as usual to throw taxpayers money at the issue. Oops!

Balance
25-08-2020, 06:36 AM
Housing is but another example which will become clearer post election.

Informed housing & industry players are busy taking advantage of the 'mega billion dollar thrown at development opportunities' provided by Megan Woods & Kainga Ora - future generations will pay so you better get your share to take care of your own future generations. Otherwise, they will pay big time.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/landlords-paid-3k-a-week-by-government?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=5d49fddc3a-Daily+Briefing+25.8.20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-5d49fddc3a-97843407

And having stuffed up the rental market & property market, here’s Labour throwing taxpayers’ funds without restraint at providing state housing :

‘A former Harcourts property manager in South Auckland has blown the whistle on an emergency housing scheme where a group of landlords were paid up to $3000 a week by the taxpayer for "marginal to uninhabitable" private rentals.’

Get your share, folks, of the state funded largess provided by this government, is the message out there amongst informed industry players. If you don’t, your future generations will be paying for it anyway.

Balance
25-08-2020, 07:19 AM
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/nzs-k-shaped-covid-19-recovery?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=5d49fddc3a-Daily+Briefing+25.8.20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-5d49fddc3a-97843407

Paywalled

How this government’s Covid 19 response and housing/property policies are enriching the already rich while impoverishing further the poor and renters.

So pleased we do not have the Labourite spinners here attempting to deflect from reports of the very real economic & social damage being done by Cindy & her incompetents.

Balance
25-08-2020, 07:44 AM
Remember how Cindy & her incompetents we’re going to bring down the cost of construction and in turn, the prices of properties in NZ?

House inflation was blamed on foreign buyers & lack of new houses - so ban foreign buyers and encourage new builds, and roll out Kiwibuild to provide affordable housing for first home buyers.

https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/38325

Well, they have totally failed - house inflation is rapidly rising and on the rampage.

But don’t expect any housing policies From Labour - it’s a Covid 19 election, see but only if there’s no stuff-ups. If there are stuff-ups like in the last 3 weeks, then Covid-19 must be taken out of the election!

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 07:46 AM
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/nzs-k-shaped-covid-19-recovery?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=5d49fddc3a-Daily+Briefing+25.8.20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-5d49fddc3a-97843407

Paywalled

How this government’s Covid 19 response and housing/property policies are enriching the already rich while impoverishing further the poor and renters.

So pleased we do not have the Labourite spinners here attempting to deflect from reports of the very real economic & social damage being done by Cindy & her incompetents. Of course the way the virus is being handled by right wing governments in the USA, UK and Australia looks like it is resulting in at least as much economic devastation and social damage too. Certainly the social polarisation and damage under the Trump and Johnson governments are significantly greater than in NZ.

NZ's housing settings and policies have caused problems for decades.

artemis
25-08-2020, 07:51 AM
..... How this government’s Covid 19 response and housing/property policies are enriching the already rich while impoverishing further the poor and renters. ....

Might be a couple of patterns exposed in that quite long article. One being panic and chaos in government's emergency housing response. Another, well I couldn't possibly comment.

Balance
25-08-2020, 07:52 AM
Of course the way the virus is being handled by right wing governments in the USA, UK and Australia looks like it is resulting in at least as much economic devastation and social damage too. Certainly the social polarisation and damage under the Trump and Johnson governments are significantly greater than in NZ.

NZ's housing settings and policies have caused problems for decades.

But Cindy & her incompetents were going to sort housing out, remember?

Kiwibuild? Disaster.

Capital gains tax? Pulled as electorally unpalatable.

Ban foreign buyers? Done & big surprise, it’s had zero effect on house inflation.

Billions of dollars thrown at building more state houses? Waiting list has grown and tripled!

Fact - this government has not got a plan or a clue about housing.

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 07:58 AM
But Cindy & her incompetents were going to sort housing out, remember?

Kiwibuild? Disaster.

Capital gains tax? Pulled as electorally unpalatable.

Ban foreign buyers? Done & big surprise, it’s had zero effect on house inflation.

Billions of dollars thrown at building more state houses? Waiting list has grown and tripled!

Fact - this government has not got a plan or a clue about housing.
With the exception of some rental reform, I agree the can has been kicked down the street by this government. Their desire to retain the treasury benches has meant that there is no fundamental reform.

iceman
25-08-2020, 08:22 AM
With the exception of some rental reform, I agree the can has been kicked down the street by this government. Their desire to retain the treasury benches has meant that there is no fundamental reform.

Rental reform that is already seeing the least desirable tenants having rental agreements cancelled and nowhere for them to go as private landlords will no longer be taking the risk of having them and the Government does not have social housing available with waiting lists already longer than ever before and Kiwibuild a joke. A complete and utter failure from this Government on all housing related policies
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122351933/struggling-to-find-a-home-in-invercargill

blackcap
25-08-2020, 08:33 AM
Rental reform that is already seeing the least desirable tenants having rental agreements cancelled and nowhere for them to go as private landlords will no longer be taking the risk of having them and the Government does not have social housing available with waiting lists already longer than ever before. and Kiwibuild a joke. A complete and utter failure from this Government on all housing related policies
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122351933/struggling-to-find-a-home-in-invercargill

Good intentions and all with ill thought out consequenses:

"McLean, along with others, could be described as the new face of “houselessness” in Invercargill where people are struggling to get accepted by landlords and rental agencies, who are now getting a lot pickier since the new Residential Tenancy Amendment Act came into force on August 6."

dobby41
25-08-2020, 08:54 AM
Good intentions and all with ill thought out consequenses:

"McLean, along with others, could be described as the new face of “houselessness” in Invercargill where people are struggling to get accepted by landlords and rental agencies, who are now getting a lot pickier since the new Residential Tenancy Amendment Act came into force on August 6."

I've always been picky with who I let to (from before the current changes) - any sensible business person manages their risk.

Balance
25-08-2020, 08:54 AM
Good intentions and all with ill thought out consequenses:

"McLean, along with others, could be described as the new face of “houselessness” in Invercargill where people are struggling to get accepted by landlords and rental agencies, who are now getting a lot pickier since the new Residential Tenancy Amendment Act came into force on August 6."

Kindness & hugs - Cindy's only economic recipe.

Future generations are going to be paying big time for her hugs and kindness.

blackcap
25-08-2020, 09:00 AM
I've always been picky with who I let to (from before the current changes) - any sensible business person manages their risk.

Yeah me too. But now I am even more picky, especially now the 90 day kick out rule is gone.....

Its a lot easier giving people a chance, like the lady in the article with a conviction from a long time ago, if you have some recourse if you picked wrong. I would rather give people a chance to prove themselves than not being able to economically justify that decision.

jonu
25-08-2020, 09:16 AM
Good intentions and all with ill thought out consequenses"

Gee sounds just like the Ihumatao debacle.

It's what happens when an intellectual lightweight runs the country on emotions rather than logic.

Balance
25-08-2020, 09:47 AM
Gee sounds just like the Ihumatao debacle.

It's what happens when an intellectual lightweight runs the country on emotions rather than logic.

Not only on emotions but by throwing taxpayers’ money with abandonment & without hindrance at ‘problems’ & ‘issues’.

Pike River’s $50m+ to recover one dead tractor and 2 dead robots is a glaring case in point - no more talk of bringing the ‘boys’ home.

Re Ihumatao :

https://www.waateanews.com/waateanews/x_news/MjUyNDk/Paakiwaha/Ihumatao-occupation-fails-treaty-test

Winston is playing politics as usual but it is impossible to disagree with what he is saying.

‘Mr Peters says taking land from a private owner would open up every other treaty settlement.’

jonu
25-08-2020, 09:54 AM
Not only on emotions but by throwing taxpayers’ money with abandonment & without hindrance at ‘problems’ & ‘issues’.

Pike River’s $50m+ to recover one dead tractor and 2 dead robots is a glaring case in point - no more talk of bringing the ‘boys’ home.

Re Ihumatao :

https://www.waateanews.com/waateanews/x_news/MjUyNDk/Paakiwaha/Ihumatao-occupation-fails-treaty-test

Winston is playing politics as usual but it is impossible to disagree with what he is saying.

‘Mr Peters says taking land from a private owner would open up every other treaty settlement.’

Yep. Still no engagement or defence from the Labourites on this issue.

I don't know if the Nats keep an eye on this thread but it is obviously Labour's achille's heel. No amount of pixie dusting Jacindamania can protect her from this one. The depth of the hole is entirely of her own making. The Nats need to hammer them on a daily basis with this.

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 09:57 AM
Rental reform that is already seeing the least desirable tenants having rental agreements cancelled and nowhere for them to go as private landlords will no longer be taking the risk of having them and the Government does not have social housing available with waiting lists already longer than ever before and Kiwibuild a joke. A complete and utter failure from this Government on all housing related policies
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122351933/struggling-to-find-a-home-in-invercargill I agree to an extent. NZ residential rental reform should have been part of a comprehensive raft of housing reforms, extending from taxation to social housing provision. Just concentrating on one or two aspects creates other shortcomings.

dobby41
25-08-2020, 10:10 AM
Yep. Still no engagement or defence from the Labourites on this issue.

I don't know if the Nats keep an eye on this thread but it is obviously Labour's achille's heel. No amount of pixie dusting Jacindamania can protect her from this one. The depth of the hole is entirely of her own making. The Nats need to hammer them on a daily basis with this.

By replying does this mean I'm a 'Labourite'?
I'm not - but I'm not sure what the issue is as there is no outcome to date.
Nats should hammer them on this, but at the same time provide what they would do. Do they have an answer?
From what I read here it seems a cut and dried issue but, as usual, the reality is a bit more nuanced.

Balance
25-08-2020, 10:29 AM
By replying does this mean I'm a 'Labourite'?
I'm not - but I'm not sure what the issue is as there is no outcome to date.
Nats should hammer them on this, but at the same time provide what they would do. Do they have an answer?
From what I read here it seems a cut and dried issue but, as usual, the reality is a bit more nuanced.

Nats’ view has been well articulated - it’s a commercial dispute between private landowners and they must sort it out without taxpayers’ funds being used to victimise private land owners.

Should have been nipped in the bud day one instead of the pandering which led to the impasse.

dobby41
25-08-2020, 10:43 AM
Nats’ view has been well articulated - it’s a commercial dispute between private landowners and they must sort it out without taxpayers’ funds being used to victimise private land owners.

Should have been nipped in the bud day one instead of the pandering which led to the impasse.

You say 'landowners' as in plural? There is only one isn't there - Fletchers?
So Fletchers serve trespass on the trespassers and the police will enforce.
Done and dusted?
If only it were that simple.

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 10:47 AM
Nats’ view has been well articulated - it’s a commercial dispute between private landowners and they must sort it out without taxpayers’ funds being used to victimise private land owners.

Should have been nipped in the bud day one instead of the pandering which led to the impasse. I wonder if Judith Collins would end up crushing the occupation by sending in the police, like a previous National PM did with the occupation of Bastion Point.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/421802/ihumatao-one-year-since-eviction-notice-served

Balance
25-08-2020, 11:01 AM
You say 'landowners' as in plural? There is only one isn't there - Fletchers?
So Fletchers serve trespass on the trespassers and the police will enforce.
Done and dusted?
If only it were that simple.

First point of dispute is between the Te Kawerau a Maki iwi tribal authority & the competing mana whenua protestors.

Let them sort it out first - there's the Maori land court for that purpose.

Or is the Labour government saying that the Maori land court is useless?


I wonder if Judith Collins would end up crushing the occupation by sending in the police, like a previous National PM did with the occupation of Bastion Point.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/421802/ihumatao-one-year-since-eviction-notice-served

Big difference between Bastion Pt & Ihumatao.

Bastion Pt was Crown Land which that economic buffoon Muldoon wanted to sell off for private residential development (in which case, ownership passed to private hands and could not be contested ever again).

Ihumatao is private land. And private land ownership is sacrosanct in law in NZ - or was until Cindy decided to stick her nose in.

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 11:21 AM
..

Ihumatao is private land. And private land ownership is sacrosanct in law in NZ ... ..and private land rights are enforced by the machinery of the state, which I am sure any National Party PM will leave alone without reform ;)

Balance
25-08-2020, 11:25 AM
..and private land rights are enforced by the machinery of the state, which I am sure any National Party PM will leave alone without reform ;)

Cindy got involved in Ihumatao because it involves Maori votes and she thought she just needed to throw $$$ at it. Leadership for the team of 5 million?

artemis
25-08-2020, 11:56 AM
I agree to an extent. NZ residential rental reform should have been part of a comprehensive raft of housing reforms, extending from taxation to social housing provision. Just concentrating on one or two aspects creates other shortcomings.

That raft is what the current government thought they were doing. For the two areas you mention - housing related tax (more $ for the government so fewer $ for property owners >> higher rents), social housing (we told people to apply, and they did). So more tax money in = more to spend on taxpayer subsidised housing. Thanks taxpayers.

Is that too simplistic?

artemis
25-08-2020, 12:11 PM
I've always been picky with who I let to (from before the current changes) - any sensible business person manages their risk.

The risk goalposts have been moved in the last couple of years and not just with the most recent amendments. Although some of those amendments are very likely to result in termination notices while landlords still can issue them.

artemis
25-08-2020, 12:15 PM
First point of dispute is between the Te Kawerau a Maki iwi tribal authority & the competing mana whenua protestors.

Let them sort it out first - there's the Maori land court for that purpose.

Or is the Labour government saying that the Maori land court is useless? ....

Not at all sure about the Maori Land Court if there is no actual ownership interest involved - which there isn't currently. However it is quite a long time since I worked in the Maori Land Court and its scope may have changed.

dobby41
25-08-2020, 12:30 PM
The risk goalposts have been moved in the last couple of years and not just with the most recent amendments. Although some of those amendments are very likely to result in termination notices while landlords still can issue them.

I agree they have moved but I haven't had to change my stance on who I accept.
I have had a large number of rentals for quite a few years.

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 12:40 PM
Cindy got involved in Ihumatao because it involves Maori votes and she thought she just needed to throw $$$ at it. Leadership for the team of 5 million?
Wasn't Ihumatao land taken by proclamation by the state back in the 1860"s? As for private land ownership being sacrosanct, I presume you have not been involved with land being compulsory purchased by Crown entities for "public needs"?

artemis
25-08-2020, 12:47 PM
Wasn't Ihumatao land taken by proclamation by the state back in the 1860"s? As for private land ownership being sacrosanct, I presume you have not been involved with land being compulsory purchased by Crown entities for "public needs"?

There is the Waitangi Tribunal for such disputes. But not for land in private ownership. Believe any Ihumatao deal would have to be by agreement of the stakeholders. Fletchers seems willing to come to the party.

Balance
25-08-2020, 12:49 PM
Wasn't Ihumatao land taken by proclamation by the state back in the 1860"s? As for private land ownership being sacrosanct, I presume you have not been involved with land being compulsory purchased by Crown entities for "public needs"?

Again, there is a world of difference between land compulsorily acquired under Public Works Act vs private land taken to be given to Maori.

artemis
25-08-2020, 12:50 PM
I agree they have moved but I haven't had to change my stance on who I accept.
I have had a large number of rentals for quite a few years.

Fair comment and I am in the same position. Do you have a view on the impact on the rental sector of recent changes? There are plenty of anecdotes about selling, raising rents, selection of tenants going forward but also about new investors entering the market.

dobby41
25-08-2020, 01:15 PM
Fair comment and I am in the same position. Do you have a view on the impact on the rental sector of recent changes? There are plenty of anecdotes about selling, raising rents, selection of tenants going forward but also about new investors entering the market.

People will still enter as it is still the best game in town for free capital gains, hard to get leverage with shares.
With the historic low interest rates the 'costs' are reducing and, whereas before anything under 10% was a loser now 5% is seen as good.
The ones talking about selling and hiking rents sky high are in the minority IMO - the vocal minority.

Zaphod
25-08-2020, 01:36 PM
People will still enter as it is still the best game in town for free capital gains, hard to get leverage with shares.
With the historic low interest rates the 'costs' are reducing and, whereas before anything under 10% was a loser now 5% is seen as good.
The ones talking about selling and hiking rents sky high are in the minority IMO - the vocal minority.

With a single rental you could argue your way out of paying tax on the capital gain, but with more than one you end up with a large target on your back. You're in the business of providing rental accommodation.

dobby41
25-08-2020, 01:50 PM
With a single rental you could argue your way out of paying tax on the capital gain, but with more than one you end up with a large target on your back. You're in the business of providing rental accommodation.

Not so. As you are in the business of renting property unless you trade houses they are not part of the supply.
If you buy and sell within 5 years you'd get caught by the brightline.
So it would depend on the facts - how often you buy and sell.
Being in the business of providing rental accommodation wouldn't mean that you can't change your product on occasion.

blackcap
25-08-2020, 01:51 PM
With a single rental you could argue your way out of paying tax on the capital gain, but with more than one you end up with a large target on your back. You're in the business of providing rental accommodation.

But you are not in the business of trading rental stock. So you should be fine as far as the taxman is concerned. Just like with shares. IF you are investing for dividends and return and not trading shares, you will not pay capital gains tax. Same for property, if you meet the bright line requirements.

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 02:05 PM
That raft is what the current government thought they were doing. For the two areas you mention - housing related tax (more $ for the government so fewer $ for property owners >> higher rents), social housing (we told people to apply, and they did). So more tax money in = more to spend on taxpayer subsidised housing. Thanks taxpayers.

Is that too simplistic? This Labour government’s raft was always a holed dinghy! They excluded contemplating a CGT on the family home for a start. And then they later excluded a general CGT. So then any increase in social spending necessary to pay for making rental accommodation less appealing to private landlords, by making NZ tenancy laws and regulations fit for the twenty-first century, was going to fall on the overburdened GST payers and income earners.

Bjauck
25-08-2020, 02:30 PM
Again, there is a world of difference between land compulsorily acquired under Public Works Act vs private land taken to be given to Maori. “Private” land is clearly not sacrosanct as the compulsory acquisition and government proclamation have shown. Just as the land was originally taken by proclamation, there is nothing legally to stop government to seek amendments to the circumstances in which compulsory acquisitions of “private” land can taken place. All land is ultimately the Sovereign’s.

Zaphod
25-08-2020, 02:46 PM
Not so. As you are in the business of renting property unless you trade houses they are not part of the supply.
If you buy and sell within 5 years you'd get caught by the brightline.
So it would depend on the facts - how often you buy and sell.
Being in the business of providing rental accommodation wouldn't mean that you can't change your product on occasion.

Just asked my colleague - he said that he attempted to sell 4 of his properties held personally. IRD claimed that tax should be paid as he is in the property business. The missing part is that his brother is a developer, and consequently IRD have claimed that he is associated with a developer. Apparently the argument has not been resolved yet.

dobby41
25-08-2020, 04:43 PM
Just asked my colleague - he said that he attempted to sell 4 of his properties held personally. IRD claimed that tax should be paid as he is in the property business. The missing part is that his brother is a developer, and consequently IRD have claimed that he is associated with a developer. Apparently the argument has not been resolved yet.

Yip - happens.
Lots of missing information there though - like how long has he owned them? Were they purchased and upgraded before selling? Were they part of a development by the colleague? One for the accountants I'm afraid.

artemis
25-08-2020, 04:45 PM
Just asked my colleague - he said that he attempted to sell 4 of his properties held personally. IRD claimed that tax should be paid as he is in the property business. The missing part is that his brother is a developer, and consequently IRD have claimed that he is associated with a developer. Apparently the argument has not been resolved yet.

The associated person rule. I think it applies to individuals with up to 2 degrees of blood relationship, so brother would obviously apply. Different rules for companies.

RGR367
25-08-2020, 05:44 PM
From NZ National Party handle on Twitter (@NZNationalParty): Dr Shane Reti MP has revealed more failures at our border. It turns out it’s not mandatory for a person in managed isolation to be tested on day 3, despite the Government repeatedly claiming that it is. Worryingly, no data is being kept as to who has had one or not.

moka
25-08-2020, 09:35 PM
Paywalled

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12359365
Vote 2020 - Fact or Fiction: Did Jacinda Ardern's video with Dr Ashley Bloomfield break the rules?

The verdict:
On balance, the video itself does not seem to be an election advertisement.
There is no mention of the election or Ardern's campaign platform beyond reference to Government actions that are already underway. It is legitimate for a Prime Minister to visit and speak to staff at the agencies involved in her capacity as Prime Minister.
The danger lies in the proximity of the election, and the fact the video only screened on the Labour Party page. That page carries the livery of the political party rather than the government, and also contains campaign content.
If it was an election advertisement, the video would be within the rules of the Electoral Act because it carried Ardern's "promoter statement" setting out who was behind it.

However, Labour would have to include it in its expenses cap if the Electoral Commission considered it an election advertisement because it aired after the start of the regulated period on August 18.
There is a much stronger case to argue that it was inappropriate to involve senior public servants and government agencies in the video that was put together by Ardern's office, which primarily showcased Ardern, and which was only placed on a political party's media platforms.
Labour effectively recognised that by removing the video.

iceman
26-08-2020, 04:28 AM
From NZ National Party handle on Twitter (@NZNationalParty): Dr Shane Reti MP has revealed more failures at our border. It turns out it’s not mandatory for a person in managed isolation to be tested on day 3, despite the Government repeatedly claiming that it is. Worryingly, no data is being kept as to who has had one or not.

I find this quite incredible and a bit strange. I've recently been through isolation at an Auckland Hotel. The literature waiting at the room clearly sets out the day 3 and day 10 (or 11) tests. Even though it doesn't say it is "mandatory" there is a clear expectation there and that is probably where the problem is once again for the Government. Lots of holes for people to use to avoid being responsible.

If it is true also that they have not been keeping data about these tests, despite having forms filled in from all those undergoing the tests and txt's having been sent to those testing negative for all tests, it is simply beyond belief that they don't keep this data. Incredibly slack.

dobby41
26-08-2020, 07:22 AM
From NZ National Party handle on Twitter (@NZNationalParty): Dr Shane Reti MP has revealed more failures at our border. It turns out it’s not mandatory for a person in managed isolation to be tested on day 3, despite the Government repeatedly claiming that it is. Worryingly, no data is being kept as to who has had one or not.

Never was so not a failure.
There have been many cases of negative at day 3 but positive at day 12.
Also, though it isn't mandatory, everyone is actually getting one.
Reti is now doing the 'make a story out of nothing' unfortunately - I thought he was trust worthy but seems he's a politician 1st and not adverse to creating a story like his political masters.

Balance
26-08-2020, 08:42 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300091230/election-2020-judith-collins-tries-new-tactic-in-the-extratime-parliament

Cracks starting to widen in government’s virus response defence.

It’s all about show and no substance :

First the team of 5 million (puke),

then came the quarantine debacle,

So bring in Megan Woods who brought in the army

Then came the quarantine facility breakouts so bring in more personnel

Then came the second wave

And promises of testing were never carried out

So bring in more army personnel

And when it’s clear that Megan & Chris are not up to the job

Bring out Heather Simpson

But what do we find out?

A week after the appointment, she does not have a clue what she is supposed up be going!

" ........ the crack team of Heather Simpson and Brian Roche, drafted in to sort out the border-testing fiasco, didn't yet have any terms of reference, despite the pair being appointed a little less than a week ago. That effectively means Simpson and Roche are flying blind, each knowing roughly what their job is, but with few specifics."

What a mess of a government run by Cindy & her team of incompetents!

blackcap
26-08-2020, 08:50 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300091230/election-2020-judith-collins-tries-new-tactic-in-the-extratime-parliament

Cracks starting to widen in government’s virus response defence.

It’s all about show and no substance :

First the team of 5 million (puke),

then came the quarantine debacle,

So bring in Megan Woods who brought in the army

Then came the quarantine facility breakouts so bring in more personnel

Then came the second wave

And promises of testing were never carried out

So bring in more army personnel

And when it’s clear that Megan & Chris are not up to the job

Bring out Heather Simpson

But what do we find out?

A week after the appointment, she does not have a clue what she is supposed up be going!

What a mess of a government run by Cindy & her team of incompetents!

Yet for all that Balance, I can get $10 odds on National providing the next Prime Minister... Yes really and there is plenty of $ avaialable. www.betfair.com

Balance
26-08-2020, 09:05 AM
Yet for all that Balance, I can get $10 odds on National providing the next Prime Minister... Yes really and there is plenty of $ avaialable. www.betfair.com

So be it, blackcap.

We cannot control what others want to do - we can only try to influence with what we believe to be right & proper.

And make sure that we position ourselves and our families appropriately, whatever the outcome.

dobby41
26-08-2020, 09:11 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300091230/election-2020-judith-collins-tries-new-tactic-in-the-extratime-parliament


Judith tries new tactics in parliament but they aren't working.
It is interesting listening to question time, it was said here that Judith would chew Jacinda up in the house - it seems to be the opposite.
Collins comes off like a damp squib.

Balance
26-08-2020, 09:13 AM
Judith tries new tactics in parliament but they aren't working.
It is interesting listening to question time, it was said here that Judith would chew Jacinda up in the house - it seems to be the opposite.
Collins comes off like a damp squib.

The dutiable sheep munches the grass provided and gives an entirely expected sheepish opinion!

dobby41
26-08-2020, 09:34 AM
The dutiable sheep munches the grass provided and gives an entirely expected sheepish opinion!

I think you have spent far to long studying Trump - you have a lot of Trump tendencies in your posts.
Play the ball!

boysy
26-08-2020, 11:11 AM
Everyone else are the sheep in balances echo chamber - will be like watching Mike Hosking crumble on election night all over again on finding out Winnie went left.

The absolute drivel being posted on this forum from unbalanced is reaching fever pitch - I hope the national party/act/new conservatives are paying you well on a per post basis - for someone in the past who insinuated others were paid trolls your certainly outdoing yourself of late .....

artemis
26-08-2020, 11:26 AM
Judith tries new tactics in parliament but they aren't working.
It is interesting listening to question time, it was said here that Judith would chew Jacinda up in the house - it seems to be the opposite.
Collins comes off like a damp squib.

Have to disagree with you on that dobby41. I do watch QT on Parliament TV time to time and never really got those broad 'do you stand by' questions. Very easy to bat away as 'addressed' rather than answered.

Today's (primary) questions from the Opposition are very precise, and have to be answered properly in a time frame very different to written questions and OIA requests.

All Opposition parties have used those broad questions in the past, so not just in the House currently.

PS more than one way to skin a cat!

Balance
26-08-2020, 12:22 PM
I think you have spent far to long studying Trump - you have a lot of Trump tendencies in your posts.

Play the ball!

Here's the ball to counter your sheepish opinion :

"..... Collins has a unique, theatrical way of asking questions that really gets under the Government's skin.

......that effectively means Simpson and Roche are flying blind, each knowing roughly what their job is, but with few specifics.

Ardern said those terms of reference were still in the process of being drafted. The questions appeared to get under Ardern’s skin.

The exchange was testing. The lack of terms of reference was no great revelation, but Collins’ needling provoked an aggravated response from Ardern."

dobby41
26-08-2020, 12:36 PM
Here's the ball to counter your sheepish opinion :

More Trumpish behaviour.
You have learnt well from him.

Balance
26-08-2020, 01:08 PM
I find this quite incredible and a bit strange. I've recently been through isolation at an Auckland Hotel. The literature waiting at the room clearly sets out the day 3 and day 10 (or 11) tests. Even though it doesn't say it is "mandatory" there is a clear expectation there and that is probably where the problem is once again for the Government. Lots of holes for people to use to avoid being responsible.

If it is true also that they have not been keeping data about these tests, despite having forms filled in from all those undergoing the tests and txt's having been sent to those testing negative for all tests, it is simply beyond belief that they don't keep this data. Incredibly slack.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122566895/coronavirus-national-points-to-another-risk-at-the-border-unknown-number-of-returnees-are-not-tested-twice

“The Government’s assessment of the risk of Covid-19 spreading into the community through the border facilities has been predicated on all people returning to New Zealand having both tests. However, the Government does not have records of how many people have had or refused the day three tests.”

Basic and this incompetent government simply cannot get it right!

dobby41
26-08-2020, 01:17 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122566895/coronavirus-national-points-to-another-risk-at-the-border-unknown-number-of-returnees-are-not-tested-twice

“The Government’s assessment of the risk of Covid-19 spreading into the community through the border facilities has been predicated on all people returning to New Zealand having both tests. However, the Government does not have records of how many people have had or refused the day three tests.”

Basic and this incompetent government simply cannot get it right!

No mention, though, on what difference the lack of a day 3 test would have on the result of the model (given it doesn't actually affect the outcome).
Of course, the test not being mandatory doesn't mean it isn't done - and it has been.
The day 12 test is the important one. 15 adults have refused the day 12 test and then have to stay 28 days in isolation.
You are being sucked into National false narrative.

iceman
26-08-2020, 01:29 PM
No mention, though, on what difference the lack of a day 3 test would have on the result of the model (given it doesn't actually affect the outcome).
Of course, the test not being mandatory doesn't mean it isn't done - and it has been.
The day 12 test is the important one. 15 adults have refused the day 12 test and then have to stay 28 days in isolation.
You are being sucked into National false narrative.

I dispute that. In my isolation hotel, one guest tested positive from the day 3 test. He was then removed to a quarantine hotel and we were all told to stay in our rooms until further notice, until the hotel was deep cleaned and disinfected. Had that not been done, this person would have been allowed to go outside for walks, using the lifts, same rubbish bins as us, access to the lobby and potentially come into close contact with several people. So the day 3 test should absolutely be mandatory with mo exemptions.

Balance
26-08-2020, 01:34 PM
No mention, though, on what difference the lack of a day 3 test would have on the result of the model (given it doesn't actually affect the outcome).
Of course, the test not being mandatory doesn't mean it isn't done - and it has been.
The day 12 test is the important one. 15 adults have refused the day 12 test and then have to stay 28 days in isolation.
You are being sucked into National false narrative.

What was the impression given to NZers with this government announcement :

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2006/S00217/new-covid-19-testing-strategy-to-keep-new-zealand-safe.htm

“The Ministry of Health is already testing people in managed isolation and quarantine facilities at days 3 and 12, and a negative result is required for the day 12 test before people are allowed to leave their quarantine facility.

Cindy & MOH make a big song and dance about the 3 day & 12 days testing - to keep us safe, remember after they were caught out not properly testing returnees before releasing back into the community.

What does the government web-site says?

Surprise - "People are tested for COVID-19 around day 3 and day 12 of their stay, and they must test negative before they can leave."

https://covid19.govt.nz/travel-and-the-border/border-restrictions/managed-isolation-and-quarantine/

Smoke and mirrors - that's what this government has been doing post first lockdown - to give NZers a false sense of security.

dobby41
26-08-2020, 02:16 PM
What was the impression given to NZers with this government announcement :

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2006/S00217/new-covid-19-testing-strategy-to-keep-new-zealand-safe.htm

“The Ministry of Health is already testing people in managed isolation and quarantine facilities at days 3 and 12, and a negative result is required for the day 12 test before people are allowed to leave their quarantine facility.

Cindy & MOH make a big song and dance about the 3 day & 12 days testing - to keep us safe, remember after they were caught out not properly testing returnees before releasing back into the community.

What does the government web-site says?

Surprise - "People are tested for COVID-19 around day 3 and day 12 of their stay, and they must test negative before they can leave."

https://covid19.govt.nz/travel-and-the-border/border-restrictions/managed-isolation-and-quarantine/

Smoke and mirrors - that's what this government has been doing post first lockdown - to give NZers a false sense of security.

All of that is true - people are tested at day 3 (not mandated but they are being tested (National thought compulsory testing without a health reason was an infringement of peoples rights)) and the day 12 negative is the important one - without it you can't leave.
So both red bits are correct.
You'll take out of that what you wish.
The final result count.

Balance
26-08-2020, 02:22 PM
All of that is true - people are tested at day 3 (not mandated but they are being tested (National thought compulsory testing without a health reason was an infringement of peoples rights)) and the day 12 negative is the important one - without it you can't leave.
So both red bits are correct.
You'll take out of that what you wish.
The final result count.

It is very clear from the statements that Cindy & government want to give the impression that day 3 and day 12 are mandatory.

Now everyone understands the woke pixie dust that Labourites & Cindy try at every turn to pull over the eyes of all NZers - luckily not all of us are sheep!

dobby41
26-08-2020, 02:34 PM
It is very clear from the statements that Cindy & government want to give the impression that day 3 and day 12 are mandatory.

Now everyone understands the woke pixie dust that Labourites & Cindy try at every turn to pull over the eyes of all NZers - luckily not all of us are sheep!

There you go with your Trumpisms again - when you run out of an argument in they come, just like him.

Balance
26-08-2020, 02:39 PM
There you go with your Trumpisms again - when you run out of an argument in they come, just like him.

Not going to deflect from what was very clearly stated in the various announcements from the government & Cindy : Testing to take place on day 3 & day 12.

That's what they wanted NZers to believe and they have been caught out again.

Just like appointing Heather 'consultancy fees $$$$' Simpson and then, not even having a job brief for her!

artemis
26-08-2020, 03:57 PM
It is very clear from the statements that Cindy & government want to give the impression that day 3 and day 12 are mandatory. ....

I certainly thought those tests were and are mandatory. A lot of spinning on this in the House today, but the net of it is -

"Dr Shane Reti: Is he really telling New Zealanders that the Government cannot count the number of people who entered managed isolation and subtract the number who were tested at day three?

Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: No, I'm saying that we don't routinely measure the number of people who haven't had day-three tests, because it's not the most important consideration when it comes to our public health response."

Who knew?

Balance
26-08-2020, 04:17 PM
I certainly thought those tests were and are mandatory. A lot of spinning on this in the House today, but the net of it is -

"Dr Shane Reti: Is he really telling New Zealanders that the Government cannot count the number of people who entered managed isolation and subtract the number who were tested at day three?

Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: No, I'm saying that we don't routinely measure the number of people who haven't had day-three tests, because it's not the most important consideration when it comes to our public health response."

Who knew?

Pathetic response - and they want us to trust they know what they are doing.

Baa_Baa
26-08-2020, 04:27 PM
Pathetic response - and they want us to trust they know what they are doing.

It's shocking admission from the Minister that they don't have/keep records of day 3 testing. WTF!

dobby41
26-08-2020, 05:00 PM
I certainly thought those tests were and are mandatory. A lot of spinning on this in the House today, but the net of it is -


I'm not sure that either the day 3 or 12 is mandatory but if you don't have the day 12 test you have to stay for 28 days - by then it will be gone or not infectious I gather.
Can you force someone to have a medical procedure? A swab up the nose is a medical procedure.

GTM 3442
26-08-2020, 05:05 PM
I'm not sure that either the day 3 or 12 is mandatory but if you don't have the day 12 test you have to stay for 28 days - by then it will be gone or not infectious I gather.
Can you force someone to have a medical procedure? A swab up the nose is a medical procedure.

If you have the right legislation and regulations in place, you can put your swab up pretty much anywhere you like.

blackcap
26-08-2020, 05:10 PM
I'm not sure that either the day 3 or 12 is mandatory but if you don't have the day 12 test you have to stay for 28 days - by then it will be gone or not infectious I gather.
Can you force someone to have a medical procedure? A swab up the nose is a medical procedure.

I think under the Human Rights Act you can refuse a medical procedure. So they cannot force you to have a swab.

I see it is the NZ Bill of Rights Act as some poster has pointed out.

artemis
26-08-2020, 05:55 PM
I'm not sure that either the day 3 or 12 is mandatory but if you don't have the day 12 test you have to stay for 28 days - by then it will be gone or not infectious I gather.
Can you force someone to have a medical procedure? A swab up the nose is a medical procedure.

The key point of this group of posts is spin and managing perception by politicians. I reckon most ordinary folk would have believed in 3 and 12 day testing, and that good records were kept.

Maybe I am wrong.

IAK
26-08-2020, 05:56 PM
If you have the right legislation and regulations in place, you can put your swab up pretty much anywhere you like.

Have to change the NZ Bill of Rights Act 1990.
11. Right to refuse to undergo medical treatment
Everyone has the right to refuse to undergo any medical treatment.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM225509.html
Can't seeing that being too popular with the anti-vaxxers, will be tied up in the courts for a decade or two at the very least.

Balance
26-08-2020, 06:46 PM
Have to change the NZ Bill of Rights Act 1990.
11. Right to refuse to undergo medical treatment
Everyone has the right to refuse to undergo any medical treatment.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM225509.html
Can't seeing that being too popular with the anti-vaxxers, will be tied up in the courts for a decade or two at the very least.

A swab is not a medical treatment.

“Definition of treatment : medical care given to a patient for an illness or injury.”

Balance
26-08-2020, 06:54 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12359877

Can you believe that the government still isn't doing the day three testing?

After all those times they promised us they're testing people coming back into the country twice before they're let into the community, they're still not testing everyone on day 3.

Our plan to keep Covid out of the country looks good on paper, but unless it's actually being done, it's not worth the paper it's written on. Covid will slip through if you don't do what you say you're going to do.

Goodness only knows what the Prime Minister plans to announce to reassure us over this one. She's already used the 500 defence force card, the Heather Simpson and Brian Roche card, and the 'I promise we'll do it this time' card.

Balance
27-08-2020, 06:37 AM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/08/jacinda-ardern-calls-for-politics-to-be-taken-out-of-the-covid-19-response-in-clash-with-judith-collins.html

Cindy begging for mercy and pleading for Covid-19 not to be an election issue after getting clobbered in the House.

And this is after she stated at the beginning of the election campaign that the virus will define the election!

Balance
27-08-2020, 06:49 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12359831

paywalled

More telling blows landed - it’s clear that Collins has now got the full measure of Cindy.

And Cindy is unable to spin her way out of the pincer questioning trap set to extract the truth out of the team of incompetents.

A good read :

‘After some to-ing and fro-ing, Collins asked which minister was ultimately responsible for the Covid-19 response?

The answer she wanted from Ardern was that it was Ardern herself.

The answer she got was not that.

Ardern first said individual ministers were responsible for different strands of it and then that Cabinet as a whole was responsible for the overall response.

Collins asked again: was there not a single minister in her team that Ardern could rely on to take overall responsibility?

It delivered the rare bared-teeth moment: "I would happily have reference to my team on a billboard," Ardern jabbed at her.

It was a reference to National's partial disintegration since March – defying its billboard claim to have a "strong team".

Collins was ready for it. "Then why doesn't she?" she asked, pointing to Labour's Ardern-centric campaign.

To that, Ardern could only muster up an "it's implicit" by way of response.

Ouch! 😖

iceman
27-08-2020, 07:03 AM
I certainly thought those tests were and are mandatory. A lot of spinning on this in the House today, but the net of it is -

"Dr Shane Reti: Is he really telling New Zealanders that the Government cannot count the number of people who entered managed isolation and subtract the number who were tested at day three?

Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: No, I'm saying that we don't routinely measure the number of people who haven't had day-three tests, because it's not the most important consideration when it comes to our public health response."

Who knew?

I watched that reply and was absolutely flabbergasted

Balance
27-08-2020, 07:07 AM
I watched that reply and was absolutely flabbergasted

Incompetent little boy playing the big man caught out - that’s Hipkins. Yet another incompetent Cindy pick.

iceman
27-08-2020, 07:11 AM
I think under the Human Rights Act you can refuse a medical procedure. So they cannot force you to have a swab.

I see it is the NZ Bill of Rights Act as some poster has pointed out.

The biggest failure I see with the whole Government isolation strategy, based on my recent experience with it, is NOT having a one page contract for all travelers to sign BEFORE boarding a flight to NZ. That contract should stipulate exactly where one is going and what is expected of you on and after arrival. It should also clearly state that any breaches will be met with a 30 days prison term and full cost recovery of the isolation and/or quarantine costs. Instead, my experience was that there was no mention of any isolation requirements until after take off towards NZ and of course that leaves the system open for abuse by the halfwits that don't want to follow rules.
Simple, sign the contract (and have it enforced), or stay where you are.

westerly
27-08-2020, 08:04 AM
Incompetent little boy playing the big man caught out - that’s Hipkins. Yet another incompetent Cindy pick.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300092282/election-2020-public

Give it a rest balance . Just like the dog down the road who can,t stop yapping.

westerly

blackcap
27-08-2020, 08:05 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300092282/election-2020-public

Give it a rest balance . Just like the dog down the road who can,t stop yapping.

westerly

You mean the same Horizon Research that offer people prizes and incentives to participate in their polls?

jonu
27-08-2020, 08:12 AM
The biggest failure I see with the whole Government isolation strategy, based on my recent experience with it, is NOT having a one page contract for all travelers to sign BEFORE boarding a flight to NZ. That contract should stipulate exactly where one is going and what is expected of you on and after arrival. It should also clearly state that any breaches will be met with a 30 days prison term and full cost recovery of the isolation and/or quarantine costs. Instead, my experience was that there was no mention of any isolation requirements until after take off towards NZ and of course that leaves the system open for abuse by the halfwits that don't want to follow rules.
Simple, sign the contract (and have it enforced), or stay where you are.

Agreed iceman....a contract would give early warning of someone refusing a test. The contract, in the interest of preserving Human Rights, could have 2 options. Have the tests on day 3 & 12 and the 14 day quarantine cost is a daily charge for food. Refuse the test and the quarantine is 28 days at the traveler's cost.

Simple....but no one in Ardern's administration seems to have the ability to actually develop workable policy and then implement it. This is evident across a wide range of Ardern failures.

blackcap
27-08-2020, 08:27 AM
Agreed iceman....a contract would give early warning of someone refusing a test. The contract, in the interest of preserving Human Rights, could have 2 options. Have the tests on day 3 & 12 and the 14 day quarantine cost is a daily charge for food. Refuse the test and the quarantine is 28 days at the traveler's cost.

Simple....but no one in Ardern's administration seems to have the ability to actually develop workable policy and then implement it. This is evident across a wide range of Ardern failures.

Totally agree Jonu, that gives both parties the ability to hold onto their rights and values. If you want to withhold and refuse the test, you may, but at an additional cost. And the govt is secure that the 28 days will be plenty to ensure no symptoms or covid. That would have been simple to implement but unfortunately this government is still running the show like its primary school. I suppose that is why Jacinda likes to visit these places and get some inspiration.

Paddles
27-08-2020, 08:38 AM
This is shocking!

This government campaigned on fixing the housing crisis, I don't think they could have done any worse, and that was before I read this.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300090347/state-paid-3000-a-week-for-uninhabitable-houses

Landlords took their properties out of the rental pool to rent to the MSD at $3k per week to house the homeless. When they ran out of properties they 'borrowed' other peoples without their knowledge, little matters like ownership doesn't matter to this government when they are spending your money.
I would bet my house we will find many more issues like this arising in the future.

This government is the worst we have ever had and needs to go.

Bjauck
27-08-2020, 10:03 AM
This is shocking!

This government campaigned on fixing the housing crisis, I don't think they could have done any worse, and that was before I read this.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300090347/state-paid-3000-a-week-for-uninhabitable-houses

Landlords took their properties out of the rental pool to rent to the MSD at $3k per week to house the homeless. When they ran out of properties they 'borrowed' other peoples without their knowledge, little matters like ownership doesn't matter to this government when they are spending your money.
I would bet my house we will find many more issues like this arising in the future.

This government is the worst we have ever had and needs to go.

That is such a waste. This government needs to make sure there is proper implementation and auditing of its policy decisions.

Unconscionable real estate agents and slum landlords are nothing new. So where was the proper management structure for these policies?

Balance
27-08-2020, 10:59 AM
That is such a waste. This government needs to make sure there is proper implementation and auditing of its policy decisions.

Unconscionable real estate agents and slum landlords are nothing new. So where was the proper management structure for these policies?

Think Kiwibuild and you have your answer.

All ideas and good intentions but incompetent at implementing.

Paddles
27-08-2020, 11:01 AM
That is such a waste. This government needs to make sure there is proper implementation and auditing of its policy decisions.

Unconscionable real estate agents and slum landlords are nothing new. So where was the proper management structure for these policies?

The labour party doesn't have the depth in their line-up needed to run a country under normal circumstances let alone during a crisis, such as the Chinese one we find ourselves in.
You've got two ministers overseeing the majority of the major portfolios and anything that's not related covid will be suffering.
What else is getting missed? My bet is this is the tip of the iceberg.

Balance
27-08-2020, 11:08 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/122578997/ashley-bloomfield-faces-angry-cdhb-protesters-alone-im-here-to-listen

Health Minister and Cindy no where to be seen - any bad news and their immediate reaction is to avoid.

Leadership? What a freaking joke.

jonu
27-08-2020, 11:18 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/122578997/ashley-bloomfield-faces-angry-cdhb-protesters-alone-im-here-to-listen

Health Minister and Cindy no where to be seen - any bad news and their immediate reaction is to avoid.

Leadership? What a freaking joke.

Bloomfield is a tiger for punishment. I can't even think why he is down there. Whatever you think of his management of the pandemic health response, he is certainly a loyal and dedicated Public Servant. He is also a sacrificial lamb for his cynical political bosses.

Hipkins' credibility is plummeting with each passing day. Ardern, as normal, as far away as possible from where the consequences of her administration's cockups are coming home to roost.

artemis
27-08-2020, 11:19 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300092282/election-2020-public

Give it a rest balance . Just like the dog down the road who can,t stop yapping.

westerly

Westerly, it's a politics thread. People are allowed to post opinions, and equally to ignore them. But attempting to shut down opinions, there's a name for that.

artemis
27-08-2020, 11:28 AM
...
Health Minister and Cindy no where to be seen - any bad news and their immediate reaction is to avoid.

Leadership? What a freaking joke.

I don't really understand why so many of the exec team resigned. On the surface sounded like the Board has been told to sort out their massive overspend of taxpayer funding and the execs don't want to, don't know how to, don't agree with the Board's direction, all of the above, something else.

The protests look like staff worrying about their ability to do their jobs, or just worried about their jobs. There's a lot of it about at the moment ...

Did I mention taxpayer funding?

Zaphod
27-08-2020, 12:36 PM
Private school's $11.7m Government funding 'incomprehensible'

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/122578246/private-schools-117m-government-funding-incomprehensible-says-taranaki-principal-association-boss

FYI: The Perret family that founded the 'green' school in question with fees of between $16-$43k, are the multi-millionaire founders of HRV.

iceman
27-08-2020, 12:49 PM
Private school's $11.7m Government funding 'incomprehensible'

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/122578246/private-schools-117m-government-funding-incomprehensible-says-taranaki-principal-association-boss

FYI: The Perret family that founded the 'green' school in question with fees of between $16-$43k, are the multi-millionaire founders of HRV.

Morally bankrupt from The Greens and Labour after fighting hard against and then closing down all Charter Schools that were operating with some success in lower socio economic areas, largely attended by Maori.
Former Green MP Catherine Delahunty says it's an incomprehensible change of policy !

Balance
27-08-2020, 12:59 PM
Private school's $11.7m Government funding 'incomprehensible'

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/122578246/private-schools-117m-government-funding-incomprehensible-says-taranaki-principal-association-boss

FYI: The Perret family that founded the 'green' school in question with fees of between $16-$43k, are the multi-millionaire founders of HRV.

Have they donated to the Labour party, I wonder?

blackcap
27-08-2020, 01:54 PM
Morally bankrupt from The Greens and Labour after fighting hard against and then closing down all Charter Schools that were operating with some success in lower socio economic areas, largely attended by Maori.
Former Green MP Catherine Delahunty says it's an incomprehensible change of policy !

I know plenty of greenies that are ropable about this. Will now not vote green. Lets hope that this pushes them to under 5% and consigns the loonies to the dustbin of history.

westerly
27-08-2020, 03:14 PM
Westerly, it's a politics thread. People are allowed to post opinions, and equally to ignore them. But attempting to shut down opinions, there's a name for that.

Very hard to ignore, especially when you know the opinion never changes. But there is hope. :)

westerly

tim23
27-08-2020, 05:07 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300092282/election-2020-public

Give it a rest balance . Just like the dog down the road who can,t stop yapping.

westerly

Not a bad poll result I would have thought, I concur with your other comment too.

tim23
27-08-2020, 05:09 PM
Westerly, it's a politics thread. People are allowed to post opinions, and equally to ignore them. But attempting to shut down opinions, there's a name for that.

You raise some fair points but Balance often attacks posters with nasty comments and weird ones too too like the time he said his mate Mike Hoskings big toe knew more than me.

Balance
27-08-2020, 05:32 PM
You raise some fair points but Balance often attacks posters with nasty comments and weird ones too too like the time he said his mate Mike Hoskings big toe knew more than me.

Obviously cut you to your soul - that you have less influence on public opinion than Hoskings’ big toe?

Don’t try & deflect as Labourites love to do - nothing weird about a metaphor. Everything weird though how there can be a government of such incompetence polling well due to one slippery & cynical person. But that’s what sheep do.

Balance
27-08-2020, 05:45 PM
I know plenty of greenies that are ropable about this. Will now not vote green. Lets hope that this pushes them to under 5% and consigns the loonies to the dustbin of history.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424605/critics-pile-on-green-private-school-funding-boost

“Education Minister Chris Hipkins is distancing himself from an $11.7 million boost for a Taranaki private school after the National Party panned the taxpayer funding as "rank hypocrisy".

Ducking and diving - Minister of Education says nothing to do with him.

Notice the pattern emerging from the team of incompetents - fast to take credit for anything half good but even faster to deny responsibility & accountability for anything half bad.

So much for Cindy boasting that she would be proud to place Cindy’s team on their election billboards! 🤣

The sheep love the team of incompetents though as long as they are fed and led.

Balance
27-08-2020, 07:15 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300093441/james-shaw-calls-meeting-with-green-members-to-explain-private-school-funding-decision

$200k per Private School student From this government.

The odour of hypocrisy - no wonder Cindy, Hipkins & Shaw are wearing face masks!

‘A letter to the Prime Minister from Kealy Warren, Acting Principal at Marfell Community School in New Plymouth, which is close to the Green School said “schools are screaming out for money to fix leaky classrooms”.

“It is a clear statement that you value the rich while actively keeping the low socio-economic schools in their place at the bottom of the heap,” Warren wrote.

“Come and see us. Come and see the result of this thoughtless action on our children. And overall thanks for telling us that we mean little to you. Thanks yet again for another kicking down,” she wrote.

Think Cindy will front up and heap hugs and kindness at Marfell Community School?

tim23
27-08-2020, 08:26 PM
Obviously cut you to your soul - that you have less influence on public opinion than Hoskings’ big toe?

Don’t try & deflect as Labourites love to do - nothing weird about a metaphor. Everything weird though how there can be a government of such incompetence polling well due to one slippery & cynical person. But that’s what sheep do.

At least you just proved my point - plain weird and getting weirder

Sgt Pepper
27-08-2020, 09:15 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300093441/james-shaw-calls-meeting-with-green-members-to-explain-private-school-funding-decision

$200k per Private School student From this government.

The odour of hypocrisy - no wonder Cindy, Hipkins & Shaw are wearing face masks!

‘A letter to the Prime Minister from Kealy Warren, Acting Principal at Marfell Community School in New Plymouth, which is close to the Green School said “schools are screaming out for money to fix leaky classrooms”.

“It is a clear statement that you value the rich while actively keeping the low socio-economic schools in their place at the bottom of the heap,” Warren wrote.

“Come and see us. Come and see the result of this thoughtless action on our children. And overall thanks for telling us that we mean little to you. Thanks yet again for another kicking down,” she wrote.

Think Cindy will front up and heap hugs and kindness at Marfell Community School?

Has the Green Party been infiltrated??. This plan to handover $11 million of taxpayers money to a private school whose fee structure is such that only the children of those with significant wealth will be able to attend is lunacy Apparently no scholarships either?( I could be wrong).

JBmurc
27-08-2020, 10:33 PM
Has the Green Party been infiltrated??. This plan to handover $11 million of taxpayers money to a private school whose fee structure is such that only the children of those with significant wealth will be able to attend is lunacy Apparently no scholarships either?( I could be wrong).

Bloody hell tax players kicked in the guts yet again by this COL --$43,000 a year in fees per pupil ...for a Green school learning ...Loopy Greens at their best Giving up much needed funds

artemis
28-08-2020, 05:06 AM
Bloody hell tax players kicked in the guts yet again by this COL --$43,000 a year in fees per pupil ...for a Green school learning ...Loopy Greens at their best Giving up much needed funds

Bad optics for sure, but it will create construction jobs in a problem location. For a while. Though 200 jobs sounds a huge stretch. Green Party members are not happy, and it will be interesting to see if they begin to find new principles and find they can support the scheme after all as the co-leaders head into damage control. And into an election in which the Green Party is looking marginal.

iceman
28-08-2020, 06:19 AM
Bad optics for sure, but it will create construction jobs in a problem location. For a while. Though 200 jobs sounds a huge stretch. Green Party members are not happy, and it will be interesting to see if they begin to find new principles and find they can support the scheme after all as the co-leaders head into damage control. And into an election in which the Green Party is looking marginal.

That money could also have been spread amongst state schools in the area for R+M which is much needed in most school buildings in NZ and would have created instant jobs. That argument from Shaw does not fly. This is yet another pet project funded by a decision directly from one Minister, like we've seen umpteen times from this Government.

Balance
28-08-2020, 06:23 AM
That money could also have been spread amongst state schools in the area for R+M which is much needed in most school buildings in NZ and would have created instant jobs. That argument from Shaw does not fly. This is yet another pet project funded by a decision directly from one Minister, like we've seen umpteen times from this Government.

Taxpayers’ funds used with reckless abandonment of fiscal discipline, basic checks & balances - certainly abandonment of Principles.

blackcap
28-08-2020, 06:38 AM
Has the Green Party been infiltrated??. This plan to handover $11 million of taxpayers money to a private school whose fee structure is such that only the children of those with significant wealth will be able to attend is lunacy Apparently no scholarships either?( I could be wrong).

What is even more interesting is that the roll of that school is comprised by mainly foreign students or so I have been informed.

Balance
28-08-2020, 06:45 AM
What is even more interesting is that the roll of that school is comprised by mainly foreign students or so I have been informed.

So it’s a subsidy to the school which is set up to make $$$!

Must wonder about the due diligence done by the Greenies before handing over the money.

artemis
28-08-2020, 06:56 AM
So it’s a subsidy to the school which is set up to make $$$!

Must wonder about the due diligence done by the Greenies before handing over the money.

There were two assessments as input - the IRG shovel ready fund and The Treasury. According to Minister Shaw the IRG assessment “rated it very highly”. The Treasury assessment not so much.

iceman
28-08-2020, 07:03 AM
What is even more interesting is that the roll of that school is comprised by mainly foreign students or so I have been informed.

If true, that makes this even more incomprehensible. Bearing in mind that the no foreign students are allowed in to study in our Universities and Polytechs at the moment, will we also see a special treatment for the Green students at the border. Wouldn't surprise me. What a bloody fiasco

blackcap
28-08-2020, 07:15 AM
If true, that makes this even more incomprehensible. Bearing in mind that the no foreign students are allowed in to study in our Universities and Polytechs at the moment, will we also see a special treatment for the Green students at the border. Wouldn't surprise me. What a bloody fiasco

I could be wrong on that one, it is possible that there are no international students now with covid. But it definitely is a private school. I wonder why they are so against charter schools but then its ok when its one of their own?

arekaywhy
28-08-2020, 07:29 AM
I could be wrong on that one, it is possible that there are no international students now with covid. But it definitely is a private school. I wonder why they are so against charter schools but then its ok when its one of their own?

they take "some animals are more equal that others" literally

Balance
28-08-2020, 07:33 AM
they take "some animals are more equal that others" literally

Yup - 4 legs good but two legs better.

'Animal Farm'.

We know who are the sheep in NZ and on ST.

Balance
28-08-2020, 08:31 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424646/pressure-on-green-co-leader-james-shaw-to-pull-support-for-taranaki-green-school

Disgusting and repugnant hypocrisy of the highest order from the Greens & Cindy.

It's all about symbolism to them - the so-called 'Be Kind' & 'Care for others' messages stop at their slogans and platitudes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kealy Warren, acting principal of Marfell Community School - a low decile school in nearby New Plymouth, couldn't believe the news.

"I felt physically sick, I wanted to vomit. I could not believe we were being so disrespected in favour of an elitist private school.''

She says it sent a message of worthlessness to her students.

"I'm heartbroken for our beautiful children that have been told yet again you're the bottom of the heap stay there - what are you going to amount to?

"You're the bottom of the heap, just stay there, you're not going to add to the economy when you grow up so sit there in your leaky classroom,'' she says.

Zaphod
28-08-2020, 08:40 AM
If true, that makes this even more incomprehensible. Bearing in mind that the no foreign students are allowed in to study in our Universities and Polytechs at the moment, will we also see a special treatment for the Green students at the border. Wouldn't surprise me. What a bloody fiasco

I think the decision to invest was partly made upon the ability to grow the export education market. Obviously that won't occur until we allow new foreign students to pass through the border, for which thus far there appears to be no timetable.

This is a very hypocritical stance for the Greens to take, and probably was not a wise move leading up to an election. Perhaps they've sealed their fate.

blackcap
28-08-2020, 08:43 AM
The Green School is an International School based on a similar school in Bali. A couple of ex pats liked the idea so came back to NZ to build a school for their kids.
It is an elitist school, whoever signed off the funding needs to go. Not only Shaw but the Labour MP who ticked the box.

https://greenschool.nz/admissions/

Balance
28-08-2020, 08:46 AM
The Green School is an International School based on a similar school in Bali. A couple of ex pats liked the idea so came back to NZ to build a school for their kids.
It is an elitist school, whoever signed off the funding needs to go. Not only Shaw but the Labour MP who ticked the box.

https://greenschool.nz/admissions/

It really is "Animal Farm' scenario.

The pigs eventually learn to walk on two legs, mirroring the humans that used to control the farm before the revolution. Teaching the sheep the new chant of "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Better" is another reminder of how the sheep are used to consolidate the pig power over the farm.

If the sheep in NZ do not see through the audaciously disgusting hypocrisy of this government of depriving schools desperately needing upgrades by providing funds to elitist schools instead, the sheep deserve to go to the slaughter houses in future.

Balance
28-08-2020, 09:44 AM
So here comes the explanation - intended to insult everyone but especially the schools screaming out for better premises for their students:

This is Shaw :

It's just a building, he says.

"In terms of the infrastructure spend, it is in many ways just another construction project.''

Even Education Minister Chris Hipkins was ducking for cover when asked about it.

"It's not necessarily a project I would have prioritised. That was something the Green Party advocated quite strongly for.

"It was one of their wins, if you like, out of the shovel-ready project area, and so that's a question for them.''

jonu
28-08-2020, 09:50 AM
So here comes the explanation - intended to insult everyone but especially the schools screaming out for better premises for their students:

This is Shaw :

It's just a building, he says.

"In terms of the infrastructure spend, it is in many ways just another construction project.''

Even Education Minister Chris Hipkins was ducking for cover when asked about it.

"It's not necessarily a project I would have prioritised. That was something the Green Party advocated quite strongly for.

"It was one of their wins, if you like, out of the shovel-ready project area, and so that's a question for them.''

Also confirms that the PGF is a political party slush fund to progress pet political party projects. And neither Hipkins or Shaw are the least bit bothered by that.

Balance
28-08-2020, 09:52 AM
As usual, Cindy is no where to be seen and is refusing to answer questions from reporters. Busy with the covid-19 outbreak in Auckland, see?

Just wait for Monday when Hoskings get stuck in when she fronts with her regular Monday morning propaganda sessions with the media. :D

Balance
28-08-2020, 12:20 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122593698/taranaki-principal-sends-government-269m-invoice-in-call-for-equal-treatment

Open letter to Cindy to spend same amount per student on her students as government has given to the private elitist Greens school.

Let’s see how kind & caring Cindy is when she responds to the open letter, shall we?

jonu
28-08-2020, 12:29 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122593698/taranaki-principal-sends-government-269m-invoice-in-call-for-equal-treatment

Open letter to Cindy to spend same amount per student on her students as government has given to the private elitist Greens school.

Let’s see how kind & caring Cindy is when she responds to the open letter, shall we?

Powerful!

Exposes the lie that is Ardern. If this anger is reflected across the wider Education sector Ardern has more than a PR problem on her hands.

iceman
28-08-2020, 12:31 PM
7 new cases from isolation, all from the same flight and all confirmed from day 3 test. Yet we have a Health Minister who said only 2 days ago that the day 3 tests are not important, when he tried to justify the stuff ups with thousands not being tested.
If these 7 individuals had not been tested on day 3, they would have been allowed to use lifts, lobby, hallways and interact with food delivery people as well as mingle with security guards and other people in isolation, when doing outdoor exercises.
Chris Hipkins should seriously reconsider his position as Health Minister in charge of this monumental stuff up and making such ill informed comments.

jonu
28-08-2020, 12:38 PM
Grant Robertson currently bullshi**ing his way through the Green School as a "construction project". For once the media clearly aren't buying it.

Balance
28-08-2020, 01:27 PM
Grant Robertson currently bullshi**ing his way through the Green School as a "construction project". For once the media clearly aren't buying it.

Wheels are falling apart from Labour's PR Scam machine.

But will the sheep see it or will they repeat & chant after the piggies - 'Four legs good, two legs better?'

Bjauck
28-08-2020, 01:52 PM
Grant Robertson currently bullshi**ing his way through the Green School as a "construction project". For once the media clearly aren't buying it.

This is an absolute travesty and gives the forks to all those schools who have to fight tooth and nail to get basic buildings and do their fund raising to supply the shortfall in order to provide basic education.

Have the Greens just exposed themselves as being the most elitist of all the parties. Anything "green" trumps all else?

Balance
28-08-2020, 02:17 PM
This is an absolute travesty and gives the forks to all those schools who have to fight tooth and nail to get basic buildings and do their fund raising to supply the shortfall in order to provide basic education.

Have the Greens just exposed themselves as being the most elitist of all the parties. Anything "green" trumps all else?

https://twitter.com/billbennettnz

The $11.7m could buy 20,930 iPads for under privileged students in rural schools, maybe more at wholesale price.

No wonder principals of rural under privileged schools are GREEN in the face, sick to the stomach to see this government give them the one finger salute to their needs.

Panda-NZ-
28-08-2020, 02:19 PM
The $11.7m could buy 20,930 iPads for under privileged students in rural schools, maybe more at wholesale price.


That would ruin the environment which this school seeks to avoid where possible.

iceman
28-08-2020, 02:23 PM
That would ruin the environment which this school seeks to avoid where possible.

Yes stuff the poor. They are just wreckers of the environment if we give them the tools to further themselves. Lets fund the millionaires as long as the say all the CORRECT woke things. Absolutely disgusting.

Balance
28-08-2020, 02:33 PM
Yes stuff the poor. They are just wreckers of the environment if we give them the tools to further themselves. Lets fund the millionaires as long as the say all the CORRECT woke things. Absolutely disgusting.

And where is Cindy?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/jacinda-ardern-makes-diy-face-covering-ahead-mandatory-masking-public-transport

Busy 'making' masks for her photo-op. The principal who wrote to her obviously is not as important as her photo-op to warrant a reply.

So much for kind & caring.

Panda-NZ-
28-08-2020, 02:36 PM
She's not wonder woman (as seems to be your complaint) but is pretty close as the polls show.

Zaphod
28-08-2020, 03:24 PM
And where is Cindy?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/jacinda-ardern-makes-diy-face-covering-ahead-mandatory-masking-public-transport

Busy 'making' masks for her photo-op. The principal who wrote to her obviously is not as important as her photo-op to warrant a reply.

So much for kind & caring.

I see one principal has now invoiced the Government for $26.9m. While she obviously does not expect to receive it, at least it will draw attention to the inequitable (and hypocritical) funding precedent that has now been established.

jonu
28-08-2020, 03:49 PM
Not a great week for the Ardern shambles of a government. That extra month to the election must have the teeth chattering. Imagine the racket that would generate!

Balance
28-08-2020, 04:29 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360346

Greens admit the $11.7m lobbied for & approved by them is a mistake but it’s only one mistake so voters should forgive them!

Once you see the crocodile lurking in the swamp, would you chance going into the swamp again?

boysy
28-08-2020, 04:54 PM
Further denigration of the PM by the pale stale male brigade/trolls on this forum

Balance
28-08-2020, 04:57 PM
Further denigration of the PM by the pale stale male brigade/trolls on this forum

One of the ‘Four legs good, two legs better’ sheep brigade just posted! 🤣

jonu
28-08-2020, 05:03 PM
Further denigration of the PM by the pale stale male brigade/trolls on this forum

Don't you mean by her Ministers and Coalition partner. What a shambles!

What are your thoughts on Ihumatao boysy? Should the PM save her Maori seats by caving into the unmandated Pania Newton? And by doing so unravel 25 years of Treaty Settlements?

Or should she stand by the rule of law? What a mess she has created by entertaining this.

dobby41
28-08-2020, 05:25 PM
One of the ‘Four legs good, two legs better’ sheep brigade just posted! 🤣

An ardent Trumpist just posted.
You really have learnt so much from him.

jonu
28-08-2020, 05:36 PM
An ardent Trumpist just posted.
You really have learnt so much from him.

What are your thoughts on the past week for Ardern's government dobby41?

Are you comfortable with the spending on the Green school?

Has Ardern been telling fibs about the day 3 tests?

Why didn't she extend the wage subsidy for the extra lockdown period as earlier promised? (If it is too hard why did she promise it?)

What are your thoughts on the mysterious silence on Ihumatao?

Balance
28-08-2020, 05:36 PM
Post deleted so as not to distract from Jonu’s post above.

Labourites deserve an opportunity to respond to Jonu’s questions.

iceman
29-08-2020, 06:29 AM
Post deleted so as not to distract from Jonu’s post above.

Labourites deserve an opportunity to respond to Jonu’s questions.

Haha. That is funny. I think we all know if there will be a response at all, it will be in the form of an attack on jonu, not an answer to any of his questions nor a debate about the serious issue we have been discussing and has the education sector and much of NZ reeling.

Bjauck
29-08-2020, 07:42 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360346

Greens admit the $11.7m lobbied for & approved by them is a mistake but it’s only one mistake so voters should forgive them!

Once you see the crocodile lurking in the swamp, would you chance going into the swamp again?

More than a mistake...it goes against one of their core principles. One of their platforms is to end state funding of private schools. They can try to spin this by saying that it is an infrastructure project promoting ecological awareness but first and foremost it is a school educating the children of wealthy families.

Millions are to be spent on a private school in contrary to Green Party philosophy and platform. Did Robertson/ Labour support this decision out of political expediency to keep Shaw sweet?

artemis
29-08-2020, 07:54 AM
.... Millions are to be spent on a private school in contrary to Green Party philosophy and platform. Did Robertson/ Labour support this decision out of political expediency to keep Shaw sweet?

Or was it something more subtle? (I couldn't possibly comment.)

tim23
29-08-2020, 08:49 AM
Not a great week for the Ardern shambles of a government. That extra month to the election must have the teeth chattering. Imagine the racket that would generate!

You are pathetic with your veiled cheap shot at the PMs teeth, grow up.

Balance
29-08-2020, 08:59 AM
You are pathetic with your veiled cheap shot at the PMs teeth, grow up.

One of the ‘4 legs good, 2 legs better’ brigade appears! True to form - no response to the questions.

Hoskings sends his regards - do listen in on Monday morning when Cindy is questioned on the Greens school. 🤣

Balance
29-08-2020, 11:39 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424732/james-shaw-apologises-for-signing-off-on-funding-for-green-private-school

Freaking heck! It gets worse!

This Green School was only opened in February so hardly any kind of track record to go on - but slap a ‘Green’ label to its name & the Greens & Cindy happily hand over $12m!

Meanwhile, state schools which have been around for ages and taking care of their students struggle to get funding for basic maintenance!

They get the one finger salute and are told to go out & do cake stalls at Sunday markets to raise funds for new buildings.

No conscience whatsoever - it’s all about buying votes by using taxpayers’ funds. And in this case, by increasing debts on future generations.

There is something which absolutely stinks about the mentality of Shaw & Cindy.

jonu
29-08-2020, 11:39 AM
What are your thoughts on the past week for Ardern's government dobby41?

Are you comfortable with the spending on the Green school?

Has Ardern been telling fibs about the day 3 tests?

Why didn't she extend the wage subsidy for the extra lockdown period as earlier promised? (If it is too hard why did she promise it?)

What are your thoughts on the mysterious silence on Ihumatao?

Perhaps I should open these questions up to the wider Labour faithful. Step up moka, Panda-NZ, westerly, tim23, dobby41. Let's hear your thoughts on these questions. I'll even forgo bring up Ardern's cartoonist's dream teeth as you find it so upsetting.

jonu
29-08-2020, 11:41 AM
Hey Balance, quit posting at the same time!

At least it means you can't be accused of being in two places at once!

Balance
29-08-2020, 11:43 AM
Hey Balance, quit posting at the same time!

At least it means you can't be accused of being in two places at once!

One thousand apologies 🥴

blackcap
29-08-2020, 11:44 AM
You are pathetic with your veiled cheap shot at the PMs teeth, grow up.

Shes got a good set you must admit though. I would be happy to a mouth full like her.

Balance
29-08-2020, 01:53 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424732/james-shaw-apologises-for-signing-off-on-funding-for-green-private-school

Freaking heck! It gets worse!

This Green School was only opened in February so hardly any kind of track record to go on - but slap a ‘Green’ label to its name & the Greens & Cindy happily hand over $12m!

Meanwhile, state schools which have been around for ages and taking care of their students struggle to get funding for basic maintenance!

They get the one finger salute and are told to go out & do cake stalls at Sunday markets to raise funds for new buildings.

No conscience whatsoever - it’s all about buying votes by using taxpayers’ funds. And in this case, by increasing debts on future generations.

There is something which absolutely stinks about the mentality of Shaw & Cindy.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/122604707/james-shaw-invited-to-see-mouldy-leaky-state-schools-after-milliondollar-grant-to-private-school

A Taranaki educator is calling on James Shaw, who approved a grant worth millions of Crown dollars to a private school, to visit dilapidated schools in the region as a petition gathers steam to have the donation reduced.

Warren said while it was nice that Shaw admitted his error, and it was a start, she wondered his motivation.

“When he says he caused damage, does he mean to his party and himself? Or is he acknowledging the principals, the children, the schools, the teachers, and the families of Taranaki and the damage he’s caused us?

“We’re the ones it affects, it only affects their votes.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Where's Cindy? The kind and caring one has been noticeably quiet but her people are all running for cover :

"New Plymouth Labour candidate Glen Bennett said the investment was championed by the Green Party and was not a Labour Party initiative."

What did Hipkins (Education Minister ) said? Something about him not being involved in the decision!

Zaphod
29-08-2020, 05:31 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/122604707/james-shaw-invited-to-see-mouldy-leaky-state-schools-after-milliondollar-grant-to-private-school

A Taranaki educator is calling on James Shaw, who approved a grant worth millions of Crown dollars to a private school, to visit dilapidated schools in the region as a petition gathers steam to have the donation reduced.

Warren said while it was nice that Shaw admitted his error, and it was a start, she wondered his motivation.



FYI The principal mentioned above, is the one who invoiced the Government for $26.9m.

Balance
30-08-2020, 07:30 AM
And Cindy & Labour are making out as if they have absolutely nothing to do with the $12m for a privileged, elitist & exclusive school for the wealthy when there are thousands of kids in the Taranaki studying in sub-standard classrooms.

SHAME!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360510

Paywalled

Education Minister Chris Hipkins threw Shaw under the bus. "It's not a project I would have prioritized," he told reporters, all wide-eyed innocence and bemusement. "Ultimately that was something the Green Party advocated quite strongly for and so it was one of their wins out of the shovel-ready project area."

Ouch. I rather suspect this decision confirms what the Green faithful have known for some time – that James Shaw isn't green enough to be Green. He looks, sounds and acts like someone who could sit quite comfortably on Labour's front bench.

And this decision looks to privilege the education of wealthy international kids over the education of the kids in Patea.

Patea Area School is just an hour and forty down the road but might as well be on another planet. They're doing the best with what they have, but surely some of that $11m could have been used to improve the surroundings and learning environment of the 200 kids at the Decile 1 school.

Balance
30-08-2020, 10:26 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360406

Paywalled


Despite what you're told, our government's response is not the best in the world.

Taiwan is the true poster child of this pandemic. They've avoided any lockdowns at all, and yet only suffered 7 deaths and fewer than 500 cases in a country five times bigger than New Zealand. Taiwan's economy is forecast to grow by nearly 2 per cent this year.

Let that sink in, Labourites before you ever mouth off or post again that NZ leads the world in containing the virus - NZ does not.

iceman
30-08-2020, 11:36 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360406

Paywalled


Despite what you're told, our government's response is not the best in the world.

Taiwan is the true poster child of this pandemic. They've avoided any lockdowns at all, and yet only suffered 7 deaths and fewer than 500 cases in a country five times bigger than New Zealand. Taiwan's economy is forecast to grow by nearly 2 per cent this year.

Let that sink in, Labourites before you ever mouth off or post again that NZ leads the world in containing the virus - NZ does not.

A very good interview with a Taiwanese Minister on Q&A this morning. They are doing their COVID control the smart way.

jonu
30-08-2020, 02:31 PM
Here's a refresher of pre-covid Ardern. Clear and transparent!!!! Seven minutes of BS and question avoidance. A masterclass in bullshi**ery and avoidance of responsibility. Is it any wonder Ministers and senior Civil Servants have blundered their way through various scenarios without any concern for accountability?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5zIHL1jYoY

jonu
30-08-2020, 02:34 PM
What are your thoughts on the past week for Ardern's government dobby41?

Are you comfortable with the spending on the Green school?

Has Ardern been telling fibs about the day 3 tests?

Why didn't she extend the wage subsidy for the extra lockdown period as earlier promised? (If it is too hard why did she promise it?)

What are your thoughts on the mysterious silence on Ihumatao?

My, my....not one Labourite prepared to front on these issues. I guess they are pretty indefensible.

tim23
30-08-2020, 07:56 PM
Shes got a good set you must admit though. I would be happy to a mouth full like her.

Sure she does - but what relevance it has is beyond me....

Balance
31-08-2020, 12:49 PM
Sure she does - but what relevance it has is beyond me....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300092554/auckland-man-charged-with-threatening-to-kill-broadcaster-mike-hosking

No need to go to such extremes just because you do not like Hoskings, tim23.

Chill and take a few deep breaths before fling it again, ok?

Stumpynuts
31-08-2020, 12:58 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300092554/auckland-man-charged-with-threatening-to-kill-broadcaster-mike-hosking

No need to go to such extremes just because you do not like Hoskings, tim23.

Chill and take a few deep breaths before fling it again, ok?


To be fair to the person who got charged - Mike Hosking doesn't like himself.
Watch this video on youtube to see why... :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyNds3DIbd4

jonu
31-08-2020, 04:48 PM
Tee hee...Crusher's husband has a sense of humour.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12361020

And what do the precious flowers of Labour try to do? Paint it as misogynist. Get a grip...they're funny. Nothing to do with her gender.

jonu
31-08-2020, 04:51 PM
What are your thoughts on the past week for Ardern's government dobby41?

Are you comfortable with the spending on the Green school?

Has Ardern been telling fibs about the day 3 tests?

Why didn't she extend the wage subsidy for the extra lockdown period as earlier promised? (If it is too hard why did she promise it?)

What are your thoughts on the mysterious silence on Ihumatao?

And still no one from the Labour perspective prepared to front on these issues. Ardern has shafted you as well. I feel your pain.

Balance
31-08-2020, 05:17 PM
Tee hee...Crusher's husband has a sense of humour.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12361020

And what do the precious flowers of Labour try to do? Paint it as misogynist. Get a grip...they're funny. Nothing to do with her gender.

The Incredible Sulk! The green color is rather appropriate given how she's steered herself and Labour clear of the Greens' school devbacle.

And what a pathetic attempt at making it an election issue - using Cindy’s gender as a defence against all & sundry.

She is a politician and as cynical & grubby as they come.

artemis
31-08-2020, 05:35 PM
Having a go at Ms Collins plays right into her hands. Definitely not a precious petal.

boysy
31-08-2020, 05:38 PM
Crushers dip stick husband made it an issue what a complete idiot, I mean really that’s something I would expect unbalanced or Jonu and the pale male stale brigade to post that crap. I suspect most people will see it what it is for a pathetic attempt to smeer the PM.

Why mr orivida would post anything this stupid is beyond me....

Balance
31-08-2020, 05:38 PM
deleted deleted

Balance
31-08-2020, 05:40 PM
Crushers dip stick husband made it an issue what a complete idiot, I mean really that’s something I would expect unbalanced or Jonu and the pale male stale brigade to post that crap. I suspect most people will see it what it is for a pathetic attempt to smeer the PM.

Why mr orivida would post anything this stupid is beyond me....

One of the '4 legs good, 2 legs better' brigade makes an appearance but still no answer to jonu's perfectly reasonable questions.

Sheep are like that - happy as long as they are fed and led to you know where!

Balance
31-08-2020, 05:42 PM
And Cindy & Labour are making out as if they have absolutely nothing to do with the $12m for a privileged, elitist & exclusive school for the wealthy when there are thousands of kids in the Taranaki studying in sub-standard classrooms.

SHAME!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360510

Paywalled

Education Minister Chris Hipkins threw Shaw under the bus. "It's not a project I would have prioritized," he told reporters, all wide-eyed innocence and bemusement. "Ultimately that was something the Green Party advocated quite strongly for and so it was one of their wins out of the shovel-ready project area."

Ouch. I rather suspect this decision confirms what the Green faithful have known for some time – that James Shaw isn't green enough to be Green. He looks, sounds and acts like someone who could sit quite comfortably on Labour's front bench.

And this decision looks to privilege the education of wealthy international kids over the education of the kids in Patea.

Patea Area School is just an hour and forty down the road but might as well be on another planet. They're doing the best with what they have, but surely some of that $11m could have been used to improve the surroundings and learning environment of the 200 kids at the Decile 1 school.


Greens must be wondering how they get out of this mess. Especially since Cindy & Labour have conveniently throw them under the bus.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/08/couple-who-called-covid-19-manufactured-natural-disaster-held-dna-activation-event-at-green-school.html

Newshub can reveal the Green School which received nearly $12 million in Government funding hosted a 'sacred ceremony' run by a school parent who believes COVID-19 is a manufactured natural disaster.

Melchizedek described COVID-19 as a "manufactured natural disaster", a "UN 2030 vision" including "vaccinated nanochip technology" and "looming possibility of vaccination agendas" - all baseless claims circulated by conspiracy theorists.

The post was deleted after questions from Newshub.

The school wouldn't say if those views had been repeated to the students but told Newshub it doesn't advocate personal views as part of its curriculum.

jonu
31-08-2020, 05:43 PM
What are your thoughts on the past week for Ardern's government dobby41?

Are you comfortable with the spending on the Green school?

Has Ardern been telling fibs about the day 3 tests?

Why didn't she extend the wage subsidy for the extra lockdown period as earlier promised? (If it is too hard why did she promise it?)

What are your thoughts on the mysterious silence on Ihumatao?

But boysy....what are your thoughts about this stuff? No gender innuendo. No victim creating. Just good honest politics. Please enlighten us as to how Ardern has enhanced her standing with regards to the issues mentioned above!

moka
31-08-2020, 05:53 PM
And still no one from the Labour perspective prepared to front on these issues. Ardern has shafted you as well. I feel your pain.
Ardern has not shafted me. I just find the discussion on this thread so negative and depressing that I don’t bother to read it very often let alone post. It is bad for my mental health to read such demoralizing comments. The discussion is not constructive. It is about showing how incompetent and useless the government is. And if I start to believe the government is useless then I will just feel discouraged and that does not do me or anyone else any good. I will become a burden, and people will avoid me because I am so negative. Negativity is contagious, and so I try to avoid getting infected.

artemis
31-08-2020, 05:58 PM
Crushers dip stick husband made it an issue what a complete idiot, I mean really that’s something I would expect unbalanced or Jonu and the pale male stale brigade to post that crap. I suspect most people will see it what it is for a pathetic attempt to smeer the PM.

Why mr orivida would post anything this stupid is beyond me....

Much better for spouses to do what they're told, would you say? Can't have grown ups making their own decisions and having their own opinions now, can we.

boysy
31-08-2020, 06:00 PM
Yes perfectly reasonable questions from one who make a veiled comment comparing JA to Hitler - i know who i wouldn't listen to going forward - like the tagline of fox news 'fair and balanced' - I get the pale male brigade is on the wrong side of public opinion and not liking it at all - like Mike Hosking basically crying on TV when winnie went left - The NZ electorate are sick of the tired of the whinging from the right - im sure your complaining would cease should JA do a JK and simply smile and waive and forget what he had previously said - easy to not be held to account when you dont promise to do a thing afterall .... yeah right ......

moka
31-08-2020, 06:00 PM
Morally bankrupt from The Greens and Labour after fighting hard against and then closing down all Charter Schools that were operating with some success in lower socio economic areas, largely attended by Maori.
Former Green MP Catherine Delahunty says it's an incomprehensible change of policy !
It is not a change of policy and Shaw was the only Green Party MP that knew about it and agreed to it.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424646/pressure-on-green-co-leader-james-shaw-to-pull-support-for-taranaki-green-school
So did Shaw even consult with his own caucus before making such a controversial decision?
"Well it was under Budget secrecy, so whilst something is under Budget secrecy ministers can't talk beyond other ministers about that."

jonu
31-08-2020, 06:03 PM
Ardern has not shafted me. I just find the discussion on this thread so negative and depressing that I don’t bother to read it very often let alone post. It is bad for my mental health to read such demoralizing comments. The discussion is not constructive. It is about showing how incompetent and useless the government is. And if I start to believe the government is useless then I will just feel discouraged and that does not do me or anyone else any good. I will become a burden, and people will avoid me because I am so negative. Negativity is contagious, and so I try to avoid getting infected.

Well moka....all I can say is that turning a blind eye to the government's failings is a negative thing to do. Much better to confront wrongdoings and learn from them. Sweeping them under the carpet does nobody any good. It's getting to be an awfully lumpy carpet.

boysy
31-08-2020, 06:05 PM
Much better for spouses to do what they're told, would you say? Can't have grown ups making their own decisions and having their own opinions now, can we.

I would think a manner of decorum would exist here in NZ when it came to politics and spouses , it would appear as though this is no longer the case. I think you will find outside of right leaning 40+ males the idea of the leader of the oppositions partner liking demeaning memes of the PM is not on ....

Why Mr Orivida would start throwing stones is beyond me the guy has enough baggage to sink a ship, perhaps he should go back to china on the taxpayer again or dig up some more swamp kauri to sell to the Chinese ..... Own goal if i have ever seen one - perhaps he will be NZ equivalent of DT cant keep his tweets or memes to himself .....

jonu
31-08-2020, 06:08 PM
Yes perfectly reasonable questions from one who make a veiled comment comparing JA to Hitler - i know who i wouldn't listen to going forward - like the tagline of fox news 'fair and balanced' - I get the pale male brigade is on the wrong side of public opinion and not liking it at all - like Mike Hosking basically crying on TV when winnie went left - The NZ electorate are sick of the tired of the whinging from the right - im sure your complaining would cease should JA do a JK and simply smile and waive and forget what he had previously said - easy to not be held to account when you dont promise to do a thing afterall .... yeah right ......

Are you replying to me boysy? If so, where have I made "veiled comparisons to Hitler"?

And how about addressing the issues I raised? The Green School, Day 3 testing, Wage subsidy extension, Ihumatao.

The issues boysy, the issues! No gender moaning, no victim creation....the issues!

boysy
31-08-2020, 06:33 PM
No Jonu it was not directed at you that was directed at troll #1

moka
31-08-2020, 06:39 PM
Well moka....all I can say is that turning a blind eye to the government's failings is a negative thing to do. Much better to confront wrongdoings and learn from them. Sweeping them under the carpet does nobody any good. It's getting to be an awfully lumpy carpet.
I am not turning a blind eye to the failings. I read the news but the mistakes are not all I focus on. I see it as the 80/20 rule, about 80% of what the government does is good and some is bad and we all make mistakes. Mistakes are lessons and I see the government learning from them. James Shaw apologised, Hipkins and Ardern have apologised. I am sure they are very aware of their failings with all the media attention. The failings are not under the carpet, they are out in the open. So let’s move on, and let them focus on making better decisions.

moka
31-08-2020, 06:52 PM
Tee hee...Crusher's husband has a sense of humour.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12361020

And what do the precious flowers of Labour try to do? Paint it as misogynist. Get a grip...they're funny. Nothing to do with her gender.Very embarrassing for the Leader of the Opposition to have a husband who shows he has a lack of awareness of what is appropriate behaviour for the spouse of a political leader. It does reflect badly on her.
National Party's Meme Working Group. 20K likes. We are not the National Party nor associated with them. Yeah right! Judith Collins liked the page, her husband posts.

jonu
31-08-2020, 06:52 PM
I am not turning a blind eye to the failings. I read the news but the mistakes are not all I focus on. I see it as the 80/20 rule, about 80% of what the government does is good and some is bad and we all make mistakes. Mistakes are lessons and I see the government learning from them. James Shaw apologised, Hipkins and Ardern have apologised. I am sure they are very aware of their failings with all the media attention. The failings are not under the carpet, they are out in the open. So let’s move on, and let them focus on making better decisions.

Well I would agree with you....except....except, there's not only mistakes on display here, there's deception. From the PM who looked us in the eye and promised honest and transparency. Instead we have a daily propaganda session that is equal parts fearmongering, politicisation of covid-19 and misinformation....some of it deliberate!

And beyond all that....Ihumatao.

jonu
31-08-2020, 06:56 PM
Very embarrassing for the Leader of the Opposition to have a husband who shows he has a lack of awareness of what is appropriate behaviour for the spouse of a political leader. It does reflect badly on her.
National Party's Meme Working Group. 20K likes. We are not the National Party nor associated with them. Yeah right! Judith Collins liked the page, her husband posts.

She probably would prefer it if he shut up. I'm sure most spouses could empathise. However Crusher is no shrinking violet and neither would you expect her husband to be. A sense of humour and a thick skin go along way in politics....just ask Winnie.

iceman
31-08-2020, 10:14 PM
It is not a change of policy and Shaw was the only Green Party MP that knew about it and agreed to it.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424646/pressure-on-green-co-leader-james-shaw-to-pull-support-for-taranaki-green-school
So did Shaw even consult with his own caucus before making such a controversial decision?
"Well it was under Budget secrecy, so whilst something is under Budget secrecy ministers can't talk beyond other ministers about that."

OMG Moka. So the Leader of the party does it, against party policy and you say it isn't a change of policy. Sad

Baa_Baa
31-08-2020, 10:24 PM
OMG Moka. So the Leader of the party does it, against party policy and you say it isn't a change of policy. Sad

It’s a gaff pure and simple, but with major implications for the party, the green twit was desperate to score some points and fecks up announcing millions to a school the greens abhor, then tries to retract and the COL throw him under the bus. Nothing to do with policy imo, just a dumb ass gaff likely to seal the gate on the greens next two decades of insignificance on the sidelines. Shaw will rue the day that he put the final nail in the coffin of the party, taking them out of government and back into insignificance.

moka
31-08-2020, 10:42 PM
Well I would agree with you....except....except, there's not only mistakes on display here, there's deception. From the PM who looked us in the eye and promised honest and transparency. Instead we have a daily propaganda session that is equal parts fearmongering, politicisation of covid-19 and misinformation....some of it deliberate!

And beyond all that....Ihumatao.I don’t see the daily press conferences as propaganda. If you are very badly injured and the paramedic says “everything is going to be all right” I don’t call that deception. They are trying to instill confidence and hope. And that is the role of the PM. She is addressing a diverse audience and when some of you find what she is saying patronising many other people find it very reassuring and like what they are hearing. Unfortunately due the timing of the election the covid crisis has been politicised by the media, the Opposition and others, and that is not in the best interests of New Zealand because scoring political points becomes more important than working together to fight the virus.

moka
31-08-2020, 10:57 PM
OMG Moka. So the Leader of the party does it, against party policy and you say it isn't a change of policy. SadThe Green Party's policy has not changed.
Shaw made a decision that was not according to party policy but he cannot unilaterally change policy.
It seems to me that he would not have made the decision if someone had reminded him of the party policy at the time. He made the decision as Associate Finance Minister and he made mistake which he has acknowledged. I imagine he was under a lot of pressure with lots of criteria to think about and the fact it was a charter school didn't ring a warning bell. People make mistakes and I believe it was a mistake.

artemis
01-09-2020, 05:07 AM
Green School embraces 'curriculum enhancement'. It's not a good look for Mr Shaw, even if he doesn't personally go along with the unusual ideas. (Maybe he does.) Makes one wonder what else goes on at the school, and whether it is good value for big taxpayer funding.

"Newshub can reveal the Green School which received nearly $12 million in Government funding hosted a ‘sacred ceremony’ run by a school parent who believes COVID-19 is a manufactured natural disaster."

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/08/couple-who-called-covid-19-manufactured-natural-disaster-held-dna-activation-event-at-green-school.html

iceman
01-09-2020, 06:15 AM
The Green Party's policy has not changed.
Shaw made a decision that was not according to party policy but he cannot unilaterally change policy.
It seems to me that he would not have made the decision if someone had reminded him of the party policy at the time. He made the decision as Associate Finance Minister and he made mistake which he has acknowledged. I imagine he was under a lot of pressure with lots of criteria to think about and the fact it was a charter school didn't ring a warning bell. People make mistakes and I believe it was a mistake.

I can not disagree with that. It is a monumental mistake that will probably assign The Greens to "dustbin of history" (Leon Trotsky).
I do not buy for a second though that Shaw did not know what he was doing. He did, but thought he would get away with it unnoticed. I used to have some respect for him. No longer.

Balance
01-09-2020, 06:42 AM
I can not disagree with that. It is a monumental mistake that will probably assign The Greens to "dustbin of history" (Leon Trotsky).
I do not buy for a second though that Shaw did not know what he was doing. He did, but thought he would get away with it unnoticed. I used to have some respect for him. No longer.

It’s actually quite simple to understand what has happened :

Would the late Jeanette Fitzsimmons who founded the Green Party have pushed for and approved $12m for such an elitist private school?

jonu
01-09-2020, 07:34 AM
I can not disagree with that. It is a monumental mistake that will probably assign The Greens to "dustbin of history" (Leon Trotsky).
I do not buy for a second though that Shaw did not know what he was doing. He did, but thought he would get away with it unnoticed. I used to have some respect for him. No longer.

The question is...where does the disenchanted Green vote go? You'd think the majority would remain on the Left.

Balance
01-09-2020, 07:53 AM
Notice how the narrative from the Labourites on this thread is repetitively along the lines of ‘it’s a mistake? They have admitted it so let’s move on.’

How many mistakes can any country bear from a Government of incompetents?

NZ is being led down the path of no progress and ever increasing debt burden - for what?

Hugs and kindness?

Zaphod
01-09-2020, 08:21 AM
If the Greens withdraw their support, will the funding for the project be stopped? Or is it too far along now?



Green School embraces 'curriculum enhancement'. It's not a good look for Mr Shaw, even if he doesn't personally go along with the unusual ideas. (Maybe he does.) Makes one wonder what else goes on at the school, and whether it is good value for big taxpayer funding.

"Newshub can reveal the Green School which received nearly $12 million in Government funding hosted a ‘sacred ceremony’ run by a school parent who believes COVID-19 is a manufactured natural disaster."

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/08/couple-who-called-covid-19-manufactured-natural-disaster-held-dna-activation-event-at-green-school.html


This article is well worth reading.

dobby41
01-09-2020, 08:23 AM
What are your thoughts on the past week for Ardern's government dobby41?

Are you comfortable with the spending on the Green school?

Has Ardern been telling fibs about the day 3 tests?

Why didn't she extend the wage subsidy for the extra lockdown period as earlier promised? (If it is too hard why did she promise it?)

What are your thoughts on the mysterious silence on Ihumatao?

Apologies for being late back to the party - I have been around the country enjoying what we have to offer in the land of the nearly free.
Green school spending - stupid idea and I don't see how it makes a good 'shovel ready' project.
The Greens pushed it - maybe because it had 'green' in the name and Shaw got confused?

Fibs about testing day 3 - been canvased extensively. I don't see it as a fib or a failure but others do - we are all allowed out opinions (hopefully without being called names from school yard bullies).

Extending wage subsidy - no opinion as I hadn't seen that.

Ihumatao - not going to happen before the election I'd say - far to politically incendiary. National, fortunately for them, can say what they want because they aren't in power to back it up.

dobby41
01-09-2020, 08:30 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360406

Paywalled


Despite what you're told, our government's response is not the best in the world.

Taiwan is the true poster child of this pandemic. They've avoided any lockdowns at all, and yet only suffered 7 deaths and fewer than 500 cases in a country five times bigger than New Zealand. Taiwan's economy is forecast to grow by nearly 2 per cent this year.

Let that sink in, Labourites before you ever mouth off or post again that NZ leads the world in containing the virus - NZ does not.

And I thought you said we should follow Australia (into having a death rate 5 times higher than ours maybe)?

I'm not sure the Govt said we were the BEST, among the best maybe (but you could prove me wrong on that - loose lips sink ships when analysed later).
Taiwan have done a great job. They were prepared better after SARS. They seem to have a more compliant population and are willing to go further than us in running over privacy concerns (using phone data without your permission etc).
They have certainly done better than us but we are still in the top tier.
Some people like to see the worst - so be it.

Balance
01-09-2020, 08:39 AM
And I thought you said we should follow Australia (into having a death rate 5 times higher than ours maybe)?

I'm not sure the Govt said we were the BEST, among the best maybe (but you could prove me wrong on that - loose lips sink ships when analysed later).
Taiwan have done a great job. They were prepared better after SARS. They seem to have a more compliant population and are willing to go further than us in running over privacy concerns (using phone data without your permission etc).
They have certainly done better than us but we are still in the top tier.
Some people like to see the worst - so be it.

Which part of Australian response until their quarantine debacle in Victoria do you not get?

But for the whistle blowers who revealed that NZ quarantine regime was heading exactly the same way as Victoria, we would be in a worse situation than Australia now.

Excuses - that’s all you Labourites can come out with.

artemis
01-09-2020, 08:45 AM
... Ihumatao - not going to happen before the election I'd say - far to politically incendiary. National, fortunately for them, can say what they want because they aren't in power to back it up.

The government has said a decision on Ihumatao will not be announced before the election. Possibly they ran out of time to tie it up before the election but that looks even more political with the extension to the election date. Or it is a deliberate decision for the reason you said dobby41 or just as likely there is no government majority to a deal on the table. Or both. . There are a lot of eyes watching and not too surprising if this becomes Ms Ardern's Metiira Moment.

AFAIK National has not said what course they will follow on this issue. It would completely make sense to wait and see what decisions are announced and what agreements have been reached with stakeholders.

Who could blame Fletchers for accepting a decent deal that would enable them to fold their tents and move well away from what will be a problem for years, one way or another.

dobby41
01-09-2020, 09:45 AM
Which part of Australian response until their quarantine debacle in Victoria do you not get?

The bit I get is that this is a long game - the final score counts.
Australia put a few good runs in but are now far behind the line.
Maybe that had a plan but couldn't adapt as the situation changes.

I reply with my thoughts - you don't like them and I get that.
Your problem not mine - I won't debate with someone who is dogmatic and blinded by some sort of hate.

jonu
01-09-2020, 09:49 AM
The bit I get is that this is a long game - the final score counts.
Australia put a few good runs in but are now far behind the line.
Maybe that had a plan but couldn't adapt as the situation changes.

I reply with my thoughts - you don't like them and I get that.
Your problem not mine - I won't debate with someone who is dogmatic and blinded by some sort of hate.

Don't forget that, as is the same with the US, Australia has a Federal system, so the response has differed from State to State. It is much easier to incorporate a coordinated response in NZ.

dobby41
01-09-2020, 09:54 AM
There are a lot of eyes watching and not too surprising if this becomes Ms Ardern's Metiira Moment.
.

I'm not sure that there are a lot of eyes watching with the voting public at the moment.
Of all the people I talk to and what I read it seems to be more of an issue here (on this thread) than anywhere else.

Balance
01-09-2020, 10:22 AM
I'm not sure that there are a lot of eyes watching with the voting public at the moment.
Of all the people I talk to and what I read it seems to be more of an issue here (on this thread) than anywhere else.

You will be interested to know that journalists & reporters read this thread and this forum.

Need I say more.

Balance
01-09-2020, 10:27 AM
The bit I get is that this is a long game - the final score counts.
Australia put a few good runs in but are now far behind the line.
Maybe that had a plan but couldn't adapt as the situation changes.

I reply with my thoughts - you don't like them and I get that.
Your problem not mine - I won't debate with someone who is dogmatic and blinded by some sort of hate.

And your myopic view of how wonderful this government is will impact adversely on your future generations as they continue to blunder their way while spinning PR Prime Bull S - your problem.

Many are benefitting from their incompetence with a clear conscience even as they draw attention here to what a bunch of incompetents this government really are.

Hugs & kindness, Kiwibuild and quarantine debacles.

dobby41
01-09-2020, 10:48 AM
You will be interested to know that journalists & reporters read this thread and this forum.

Need I say more.

Not particularly interested but have no doubt that they do.

Balance
01-09-2020, 10:53 AM
Not particularly interested but have no doubt that they do.

And the issues covered here are expanded on in the media. :t_up:

Balance
01-09-2020, 11:10 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12361192

Hypocrisy & platitudes of how concerned Greens are for school children - every word from James Shaw an insult to every public school student out there.

And Cindy is still nowhere to be seen - it is her government's initiative to fund' shovel ready' projects with no restraint and consideration for those in real need.

macduffy
01-09-2020, 11:22 AM
Shaw made a decision that was not according to party policy but he cannot unilaterally change policy.
It seems to me that he would not have made the decision if someone had reminded him of the party policy at the time.

A bit late with my comment but really? Does a party leader need "someone to remind him" what the party's policy is on a major issue? I think not.

artemis
01-09-2020, 11:53 AM
I'm not sure that there are a lot of eyes watching with the voting public at the moment.
Of all the people I talk to and what I read it seems to be more of an issue here (on this thread) than anywhere else.

That will change in a heartbeat once a deal is announced. Whatever the deal is it will be divisive.

dobby41
01-09-2020, 12:03 PM
That will change in a heartbeat once a deal is announced. Whatever the deal is it will be divisive.

Indeed it would.

Balance
01-09-2020, 01:53 PM
A bit late with my comment but really? Does a party leader need "someone to remind him" what the party's policy is on a major issue? I think not.

So much for James Shaw apology - they were hell-bent on going ahead with the grant!

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424949/treasury-opposed-green-school-grant-over-lack-of-approvals


The Treasury advice to Shaw and the others ministers who signed off on hundreds of projects for infrastructure investment says the Green School does not have "full private school registration" and would be unlikely to get that until mid 2021.

"We believe it would be inappropriate to announce or provide government funding for a project that does not yet have the necessary education approvals," the advice says.

Furthermore, it says even if it had the "necessary" approvals, "we do not recommend funding for this school".

Treasury also objected to the project being overseen by the Provincial Development Unit saying it was not the "appropriate agency for this school".

"If this option is progressed, MOE [Ministry of Education] should be the responsible agency as it is the steward of the Education Act, and has the experience required to ensure the school gets the right network provision in place, and education system oversight going forward."

tim23
01-09-2020, 04:47 PM
Don't forget that, as is the same with the US, Australia has a Federal system, so the response has differed from State to State. It is much easier to incorporate a coordinated response in NZ.

Balance Junior - you actually make a fair point about the federal system.

westerly
01-09-2020, 05:55 PM
You will be interested to know that journalists & reporters read this thread and this forum.

Need I say more.

Often wondered why the media was lacking in journalists. If they have to resort to copying the comments on this particular thread, they hardly qualify as hacks.
No wonder the print media is begging for money to support “journalism”

westerly

boysy
01-09-2020, 06:09 PM
Makes you wonder if unbalanced has a high opinion of himself - why would any journo care what is said on this forum the only less worthwhile place to look could be the young Nat and act Facebook pages and perhaps the whaleoil blog

Bjauck
01-09-2020, 06:47 PM
Makes you wonder if unbalanced has a high opinion of himself - why would any journo care what is said on this forum the only less worthwhile place to look could be the young Nat and act Facebook pages and perhaps the whaleoil blog
I guess, it could be one way they can try to gauge the Vox Pop. There is a range of opinions from across the spectrum. Of course a NZ site aimed at those interested in owning shares can be unfortunately said to have a somewhat limited appeal :)

boysy
01-09-2020, 08:03 PM
Labour support drops in August but still maintains huge lead of 19.5% over National

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8509-nz-national-voting-intention-august-2020-202008310343

Must be another rouge poll no doubt .....

moka
01-09-2020, 11:20 PM
Notice how the narrative from the Labourites on this thread is repetitively along the lines of ‘it’s a mistake? They have admitted it so let’s move on.’

How many mistakes can any country bear from a Government of incompetents?

NZ is being led down the path of no progress and ever increasing debt burden - for what?

Hugs and kindness?Mistakes are lessons. Mistakes are learning opportunities. If you never try anything you never learn. It is called progress. In fact if you are not sure what to do in a situation the best thing is to try something and see how it works out. That is how entrepreneurs do it.
Instead of staying stuck in the mud, stuck in the past, you acknowledge the mistake and move on. I can see that learning and being open to change is not a concept you embrace.

Balance
02-09-2020, 08:09 AM
Mistakes are lessons. Mistakes are learning opportunities. If you never try anything you never learn. It is called progress. In fact if you are not sure what to do in a situation the best thing is to try something and see how it works out. That is how entrepreneurs do it.
Instead of staying stuck in the mud, stuck in the past, you acknowledge the mistake and move on. I can see that learning and being open to change is not a concept you embrace.

Mistakes are indeed lessons - but only if the lessons are learnt and future mistakes avoided.

So far there is zero evidence that Cindy & her team of incompetents learn anything from their growing list of mistakes. A country with 5m people is too important to be a training ground for amateurs who use spin to cover up their mistakes so they can continue to blunder.

Tell us what this government has learnt from KiwiBuild mistake and how are they rectifying the even bigger housing problem NZ has now?

Think carefully before you answer.

iceman
02-09-2020, 09:16 AM
The most transparent Government ever !
This copied from Nick Smith's FB page. Bloody outrageous:

I smell a rat in Govt refusing to release Justice reports on the financial impacts of cannibas regulation until after the referendum.
BERL (Business and Economic Research Ltd) has produced 2 reports on the financial impacts of cannabis regulation and modelling for the Ministry of Justice. I do not know whether the reports are pro or anti legalisation.
The bizarre response from the Govt to NBRs request for these reports under the Official Information Act says there are no substantive reason for the reports to be withheld, but then says they are being withheld as they will be released “soon”. The letter then says this will be after the referendum that is seven weeks away !
The public paid for these reports and is entitled to them prior to voting. It reflects poorly on Justice and its Minister as they oversee the OIA and the referendum. It follows the “information” brochure on cannabis provided to all voters by the Justice Ministry being descibed by health academics as containing “unrealistic and inflated claims” in favour of legalisation.
I have appealed to the Ombudsman with NBR for these reports to be released.

jonu
02-09-2020, 09:35 AM
The most transparent Government ever !
This copied from Nick Smith's FB page. Bloody outrageous:

I smell a rat in Govt refusing to release Justice reports on the financial impacts of cannibas regulation until after the referendum.
BERL (Business and Economic Research Ltd) has produced 2 reports on the financial impacts of cannabis regulation and modelling for the Ministry of Justice. I do not know whether the reports are pro or anti legalisation.
The bizarre response from the Govt to NBRs request for these reports under the Official Information Act says there are no substantive reason for the reports to be withheld, but then says they are being withheld as they will be released “soon”. The letter then says this will be after the referendum that is seven weeks away !
The public paid for these reports and is entitled to them prior to voting. It reflects poorly on Justice and its Minister as they oversee the OIA and the referendum. It follows the “information” brochure on cannabis provided to all voters by the Justice Ministry being descibed by health academics as containing “unrealistic and inflated claims” in favour of legalisation.
I have appealed to the Ombudsman with NBR for these reports to be released.

I've said it before and this highlights it. Andrew Little is a very dangerous man.

Balance
02-09-2020, 12:34 PM
Coalition partner in government with the inside oil of how Labour screwed up (again) and allowed the virus to get back into NZ.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12361512

" ..... Auckland outbreak of Covid-19 was because Labour ministers were in charge of the key areas of the response.

"We could have done better on Covid-19. That's a fact. If we could compare ourselves with Taiwan, we haven't done as well as we could have done. We let our guard down.

"Too many things fell through the traps, or the holes so to speak, that were deliberately left there by the bureaucracy ... The fact of the matter is that the Labour ministers are the only ones in charge of all that."

Balance
02-09-2020, 12:47 PM
So James Shaw was hell-bent on getting the $12m grant for the Green PRIVATE school - or else he would have held back the whole shovel-ready scheme of 150 projects.

And it's clear that Hipkins as Education Minister was also involved.

So much for his apology & his 'lack of judgement'. He knew exactly what he was doing.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/green-co-leader-james-shaw-refused-to-sign-off-on-3bn-of-infrastructure-projects-unless-green-school-was-included.html

Newshub can reveal just how hard Green Party co-leader James Shaw advocated for the $11.7 million promised to the privately-owned Green School in Taranaki.

The Green School was one of 150 projects getting a piece of a $3 billion pie - the shovel-ready infrastructure fund - and Shaw was willing to put them all at risk.

Newshub has obtained an email that went to Government ministers and the Treasury from Shaw's office and it included a stark ultimatum.

"Minister Shaw won't sign this briefing until the Green School in Taranaki is incorporated."

The email said Shaw discussed the ultimatum with the Education Minister.

"Minister Shaw has also discussed this one with Minister Hipkins.

"Sorry to be the spanner-in-the-works, but if we can get the project included, he'll sign everything this afternoon," the email said.

dobby41
02-09-2020, 01:10 PM
Coalition partner in government with the inside oil of how Labour screwed up (again) and allowed the virus to get back into NZ.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12361512

" ..... Auckland outbreak of Covid-19 was because Labour ministers were in charge of the key areas of the response.

"We could have done better on Covid-19. That's a fact. If we could compare ourselves with Taiwan, we haven't done as well as we could have done. We let our guard down.

"Too many things fell through the traps, or the holes so to speak, that were deliberately left there by the bureaucracy ... The fact of the matter is that the Labour ministers are the only ones in charge of all that."

You have to give it to Winnie - he knows how to put the knife in.
Of course, some would see that as facts rather than opinion and politics - more fool them but that's what Winnie is hoping.

Balance
02-09-2020, 01:21 PM
You have to give it to Winnie - he knows how to put the knife in.
Of course, some would see that as facts rather than opinion and politics - more fool them but that's what Winnie is hoping.

When partners break rank is when the truth comes out.

And Winston is stating the obvious - the virus was allowed back into NZ and we all know who is responsible - the government. Inconvenient truth.

dobby41
02-09-2020, 01:37 PM
When partners break rank is when the truth comes out.

And Winston is stating the obvious - the virus was allowed back into NZ and we all know who is responsible - the government. Inconvenient truth.

Please explain how and where it came back in - Winnie can't.
He is politicking but I wouldn't expect you to see that.

I would agree that it came back in - allowed is conjecture.

National want to allow international students in 'when it is safe'. They want to let the unis manage the isolation - be interesting to see how that is managed (in a halls of residence with the normal co-mingling that has to happen).
If anyone would 'allow' is back in that would be National with their looney policy.

Balance
02-09-2020, 02:05 PM
Please explain how and where it came back in - Winnie can't.
He is politicking but I wouldn't expect you to see that.

I would agree that it came back in - allowed is conjecture.
.

Labour takes credit for ‘eliminating’ it but is not responsible for it coming back in?

Pull the other leg.

The fact that they cannot ascertain where it came back in points to the failure in the tracking system. Who is responsible for that?

stoploss
02-09-2020, 02:20 PM
Please explain how and where it came back in - Winnie can't.
He is politicking but I wouldn't expect you to see that.

I would agree that it came back in - allowed is conjecture.

National want to allow international students in 'when it is safe'. They want to let the unis manage the isolation - be interesting to see how that is managed (in a halls of residence with the normal co-mingling that has to happen).
If anyone would 'allow' is back in that would be National with their looney policy.

Most likely came in on one of the people that left quarantine without being tested .... remember there were some they couldn't trace , wrong phone numbers etc .
Without everyone being tested they cannot say that one of them might not have left with the virus.
Not to mention the possibility that it could have come from international aircrew that did not have to quarantine .....

dobby41
02-09-2020, 02:33 PM
Labour takes credit for ‘eliminating’ it but is not responsible for it coming back in?

The fact that they cannot ascertain where it came back in points to the failure in the tracking system. Who is responsible for that?
I thought that they gave credit to the team of 5 million?
The lack of epidemiological and genomic evidence doesn't point to that at all and I would hope you'd know that.


Most likely came in on one of the people that left quarantine without being tested .... remember there were some they couldn't trace , wrong phone numbers etc .
Without everyone being tested they cannot say that one of them might not have left with the virus.
Not to mention the possibility that it could have come from international aircrew that did not have to quarantine .....

Those that left MIQ facilities without tests (who were mostly subsequently tested) was too long ago. Also, there is no epidemiological link to them. That isn't 'most likely'.

I could have come from the aircrew except you'd think one of them would have been sick at some stage - and they'd have to know one.

More to the point, on the genomic front, is that not everyone is sequenced - for many cases there is enough covid to get a positive but not enough covid to sequence.
But the fact remains that you can't just assume (as many do) that it came from an MIQ facility failure.
People assume because they want to blame. They stop thinking logically.
The MOH and Govt want to know where it came in because if there is a failure somewhere they want to know so they can fix it.

iceman
02-09-2020, 03:01 PM
Please explain how and where it came back in - Winnie can't.
He is politicking but I wouldn't expect you to see that.

I would agree that it came back in - allowed is conjecture.

National want to allow international students in 'when it is safe'. They want to let the unis manage the isolation - be interesting to see how that is managed (in a halls of residence with the normal co-mingling that has to happen).
If anyone would 'allow' is back in that would be National with their looney policy.

It is being done in South Australia right now and has not caused any problems. So a very sensible policy from National. Elimination of this virus is NOT a strategy that can be taken seriously and no other country to my knowledge is silly enough to try it. Our Government is belatedly starting to realise this and now talks about "containment" instead of the PM being a "perfectionist" and wanting to achieve "elimination".

Balance
02-09-2020, 06:47 PM
It is being done in South Australia right now and has not caused any problems. So a very sensible policy from National. Elimination of this virus is NOT a strategy that can be taken seriously and no other country to my knowledge is silly enough to try it. Our Government is belatedly starting to realise this and now talks about "containment" instead of the PM being a "perfectionist" and wanting to achieve "elimination".

Cindy’s prescription is lockdown, lockdown and more lockdown when it comes to the virus - the nuclear option.

Just like a doctor who prescribes aspirin for every ailments which befell a patient.

Ultimately we know what happens to the patient with a doctor like that.