PDA

View Full Version : Labour / NZ First Government



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [26] 27 28

porkandpuha
17-09-2020, 08:41 PM
And thank god for that!

Jacinda and Ashley Bloomfield have definitely encouraged people to follow the public health guidelines on social distancing and have recommended people wear masks in certain locations and in certain situations. My understanding is that these are guidelines and not mandatory, except for public transport where people must wear masks. Nothing to see here people

For businesses, social distancing has been mandatory at various levels since this whole thing started. That's the point here, she's out there restricting business sales while pulling an Ellen Degeneres selfie at a Uni.

And "Nothing to see here people?" More like "No people to see here"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/prosper/your-stories/122579607/karaka-cafe-makes-4-in-a-day-as-alert-level-2-restrictions-hit-hard

Balance
17-09-2020, 08:43 PM
Naa you do most of the voters an injustice with your comments.

My interpretation from what I have seen and heard and read is that most of the voters respond well to a strong, articulate, intelligent woman.

Lol - woman who needs to be defended and protected by others.

And remember, Hitler was very popular too. Means nothing - results are what matters in the end.

Balance
17-09-2020, 08:50 PM
Most of the voters seem to like nothing being delivered in the year of delivery.

Most of the voters seem to like the "hide under your bed" approach to COVID.

Most of the voters seem to think general election voting is like backing a horse at the TAB, and it makes them feel good to vote for the "winner" until they find out they are actually the ones losing..

Well articulated.

When you have Kelvin Davis & Phil Twyford as Ranked ‘talents’ in the government, The writing is on the wall for NZ.

Balance
17-09-2020, 08:51 PM
My understanding is that these are guidelines and not mandatory, except for public transport where people must wear masks. Nothing to see here people

Yup - sheep see nothing but 4 legs good, 2 legs better.

Open your eyes :

Ardern also encouraged Kiwis to wear a mask whenever they leave the house, but warned this shouldn't be the only public health guideline they follow.

"Keep in mind, at level 2, social distancing is required. So social distancing in retail, social distancing in hospitality are all built into the rules," she said during a press conference on Sunday.

"Mask use is not a replacement for social distancing - it must be in addition to. This is something that health officials have been very clear on, so I wouldn't want anyone to think that if you've got a mask, you can then be in close proximity to strangers. We're asking for both."

porkandpuha
17-09-2020, 08:54 PM
NZX at record high..
House prices UP (down in aussie)
Unemployment at OECD lows

Plenty of delivery and results. we don't really want to stop and switch to something else..

House prices being UP is considered delivery and results now? The lefties were all complaining when house prices went up under the previous government so why is this now a reason to celebrate?

It would usually be considered a failure when a socialist government allows the gap between the rich and poor to widen due to the hot markets. But like I said above, the left voters won't realise this until it smacks them in the face and they discover they are actually the ones losing. But hey, let take another 550m in tax from the 1%ers, that ought to fix it.

Panda-NZ-
17-09-2020, 08:56 PM
Not a left person but Nats are too loony for me atm.

Tough on crime (expensive), asset sales, pro overseas land ownership, anti-carbon tax. So I must vote for another team.

RupertBear
17-09-2020, 09:07 PM
Lol - woman who needs to be defended and protected by others.

And remember, Hitler was very popular too. Means nothing - results are what matters in the end.

Here we go again Balance is playing his tasteless broken record again :rolleyes: yawn :sleep:

And yes results are what matter in the end so I am really looking forward to the elections results and the moans and groans on here that will follow a resounding Labour victory :D

porkandpuha
17-09-2020, 09:17 PM
Not a leftie but Nats are too loony for me atm.

Tough on crime, asset sales, pro-foreign land ownership, anti-carbon tax. So I must vote for another team.

Strange, I have never seen anyone advocate for a party to be soft on crime.

Whats also strange is that you seem to be happy for the NZX and house prices to be up, and happy with low unemployment.. but then you seem to be against the likes of Microsoft setting up a data centre in Auckland. The kind of foreign investment that brings jobs and a stronger economy..

What I find the MOST strange (not aimed at yourself) is when those who are often against foreign investment, are against it until Taco Bell and Krispy Kreme roll into town and then they're in their cars lined up at midnight to get a taste.

But to each their own, and good luck as a non lefty trying to find a party thats both not National, and not as loony as National.

Panda-NZ-
17-09-2020, 09:20 PM
Strange, I have never seen anyone advocate for a party to be soft on crime.

Whats also strange is that you seem to be happy for the NZX and house prices to be up, and happy with low unemployment.. but then you seem to be against the likes of Microsoft setting up a data centre in Auckland. The kind of foreign investment that brings jobs and a stronger economy..

What I find the MOST strange (not aimed at yourself) is when those who are often against foreign investment, are against it until Taco Bell and Krispy Kreme roll into town and then they're in their cars lined up at midnight to get a taste.

But to each their own, and good luck as a non lefty trying to find a party thats both not National.

The data centre is happening under this government and one I support (see the power shares thread).

Each proposal should have to go through the OIO, which has been strengthened compared to the previous administration.

We shouldn't have passports for sale like happened under the last team.

Panda-NZ-
17-09-2020, 09:35 PM
Whats also strange is that you seem to be happy for the NZX and house prices to be up, and happy with low unemployment.. .


It's pretty good don't you think so..

Strong economy is plasted over the Blue billboards but problem is we already have one.

Zaphod
18-09-2020, 09:26 AM
We shouldn't have passports for sale like happened under the last team.

Then you should also quote the last Labour-government term which also offered high net worth individuals a path to citizen ship, which is also the norm amongst our peers. As long as key requirements are met, then there is no issue. It is not and has never been the case under any administration, of a high net worth individual simply making a payment for citizenship.



It's pretty good don't you think so..

Strong economy is plasted over the Blue billboards but problem is we already have one.

We certainly do not have a strong economy, and the pefu clearly demonstrates that, let alone the unemployment rate and requirements for massive fiscal stimulants to be injected into the economy.

Given your mention of the NZX on a previous post, Trump also likes to quote stock markets as a sign of a strong economy, but the reality is these markets are higher due to near zero (or perhaps negative soon) interest rates, housing has followed upwards for a similar reason (although I had thought that Labour were trying to reign in increasing house prices and now it's a positive thing?). There are far more factors at play.

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2020, 12:02 PM
What is undesirable in a way that is different to overseas countries though?

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2020, 12:38 PM
Labour intends to axe the PGF which is interesting.

They should also include the savings from not going ahead with Nat's GST refund scheme and cash bribes to business in their costings but sadly that's not allowed.
Also the poorly thought through and uncosted tax cuts now.

tim23
18-09-2020, 07:48 PM
But then again, Judith is not the one trotting out at 1pm each day telling us to protect the team of 5 million by wearing masks and remaining socially distant from one another.

And she will never get that chance - not as PM anyway, what a blessing...

tim23
18-09-2020, 07:49 PM
Naa you do most of the voters an injustice with your comments.

My interpretation from what I have seen and heard and read is that most of the voters respond well to a strong, articulate, intelligent woman.

Quite right - and I don't think that you described Collins!

tim23
18-09-2020, 07:51 PM
Lol - woman who needs to be defended and protected by others.

And remember, Hitler was very popular too. Means nothing - results are what matters in the end.

Here you go again with that Hitler stuff - weird, spookie even - very odd comments, are you okay?

porkandpuha
18-09-2020, 07:54 PM
Nice Tim, you managed to conveniently reply to three comments in a row while side stepping the original points and adding nothing of substance.

tim23
18-09-2020, 08:07 PM
Nice Tim, you managed to conveniently reply to three comments in a row while side stepping the original points and adding nothing of substance.
I simply commented on the posts hence the quotes included so what have you got to add of substance? - fill your boots

greater fool
19-09-2020, 08:24 AM
I simply commented on the posts hence the quotes included so what have you got to add of substance? - fill your boots

Try this:
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2009/S00375/an-ode-to-phil-twyfords-epic-record-of-failure.htm

Balance
19-09-2020, 08:28 AM
Try this:
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2009/S00375/an-ode-to-phil-twyfords-epic-record-of-failure.htm

And this failure of a minister is #4 in ranking in the Labour government!

Then you have Mr Invisible Kelvin Davis at #3!

Hell of an indictment of how really out of its depth and incompetent this Labour government under Cindy is!

jonu
19-09-2020, 09:43 AM
Try this:
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2009/S00375/an-ode-to-phil-twyfords-epic-record-of-failure.htm

The scary thing is, it's not even satire....it's true! Well maybe not the bit about the economist's head exploding, I'll grant some artistic license there.

Here's what I see as Labour's unfixable (in the short to medium term) problem. They have perhaps 4-5 capable to semi-capable Ministers. Robertson, Woods, Hipkins, and maybe Parker and Faafoi. Little is entirely out of his depth and a danger to the very fabric of our judicial system.

Ardern is an excellent mouth piece and nothing more. She can parrot policy all day long....just don't expect her to develop or implement any.

When you have a leader who is effectively a very good Press Secretary, you can only paper over the cracks for so long.

fungus pudding
19-09-2020, 10:04 AM
The scary thing is, it's not even satire....it's true! Well maybe not the bit about the economist's head exploding, I'll grant some artistic license there.

Here's what I see as Labour's unfixable (in the short to medium term) problem. They have perhaps 4-5 capable to semi-capable Ministers. Robertson, Woods, Hipkins, and maybe Parker and Faafoi. Little is entirely out of his depth and a danger to the very fabric of our judicial system.

Ardern is an excellent mouth piece and nothing more. She can parrot policy all day long....just don't expect her to develop or implement any.

When you have a leader who is effectively a very good Press Secretary, you can only paper over the cracks for so long.

Well said, although I wouldn't place Parker even on the maybe list. He's a dismal complete no-hoper. Sepuloni is ok, and Nash sometimes makes a bit of sense.

Zaphod
19-09-2020, 10:57 AM
Labour's latest ideological burps include:
* Minimum wage to move beyond the $20/hr planned for April
* Fair Pay agreements (aka national awards) to be implemented
* 10 days sick leave per year to be legislated within the first 100 days.

fungus pudding
19-09-2020, 11:10 AM
Labour's latest ideological burps include:
* Minimum wage to move beyond the $20/hr planned for April
* Fair Pay agreements (aka national awards) to be implemented
* 10 days sick leave per year to be legislated within the first 100 days.

Yes. Absolutely brilliant policies and with such impeccable timing. It should put a few of those rich-prick, bloated capitalist business owners into early retirement.

porkandpuha
19-09-2020, 11:57 AM
Labour's latest ideological burps include:
* Minimum wage to move beyond the $20/hr planned for April
* Fair Pay agreements (aka national awards) to be implemented
* 10 days sick leave per year to be legislated within the first 100 days.

A 5k pay rise for a min wage 40 hour worker, and an extra week off on top of the 7+ weeks an employee currently gets. $8.50 coffees anyone?

Panda-NZ-
19-09-2020, 12:19 PM
Well, It might help to raise revenue and hence take on less of that scary debt (1% fixed interest owned by our own rbnz) since these workers seem to be the only ones who pay tax.

The "kids 'an grandkids" should be paid more -> so more tax -> less debt. Simple stuff imo.

jonu
19-09-2020, 12:37 PM
Well, It might help to raise revenue and hence take on less of that scary debt (1% fixed interest owned by our own rbnz) since these workers seem to be the only ones who pay tax.

The kids 'an grandkids should be paid more -> so more tax -> less debt.

So inflate our way out of debt is your recommendation? I'm guessing you're not alone in that. At some point we will see rampant inflation in response to the money printing. We are already seeing it to some extent in asset prices and the price of gold. The ones to carry the can in NZ will be Labour's supposed constituents. More money in their pay packet won't bring extra purchasing power for them.

Panda-NZ-
19-09-2020, 12:46 PM
So inflate our way out of debt is your recommendation? I'm guessing you're not alone in that. At some point we will see rampant inflation in response to the money printing. We are already seeing it to some extent in asset prices and the price of gold. The ones to carry the can in NZ will be Labour's supposed constituents. More money in their pay packet won't bring extra purchasing power for them.

There won't be rampant inflation because most of it is replacing lost sales and wages like it did in the gfc. No inflation then either but the opposite problems really.

jonu
19-09-2020, 01:10 PM
There won't be rampant inflation because most of it is replacing lost sales and wages like it did in the gfc. No inflation then either but the opposite problems really.

When governments create and give money away for nothing at some point it will devalue its currency. Reserve Banks the world over will be counting on inflation kicking in while trying to maintain low interest rates, and as a side effect, shrink the value of the debt.

jonu
19-09-2020, 01:13 PM
This is what happens when government is more concerned with power games and asserting its influence rather than doing the job for which it exists.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/122686907/doc-and-landowners-face-off-over-fence-protecting-large-native-bush-block

Balance
19-09-2020, 02:05 PM
Jacinda: "Wear a mask and stay socially distant"

Also Jacinda today:

11947

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122824985/election-2020-david-seymour-criticises-jacinda-arderns-lack-of-social-distancing-in-selfie-while-on-the-campaign-trail

Cindy being called out for breaching mask wearing and social distancing advice in mainstream media.

I have mentioned before and will do so here again - the media reads ST & it’s good to see them highlighting the blatant hypocrisy here by Cindy.

porkandpuha
19-09-2020, 04:39 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122824985/election-2020-david-seymour-criticises-jacinda-arderns-lack-of-social-distancing-in-selfie-while-on-the-campaign-trail

Cindy being called out for breaching mask wearing and social distancing advice in mainstream media.

I have mentioned before and will do so here again - the media reads ST & it’s good to see them highlighting the blatant hypocrisy here by Cindy.

Couple days late to the party but nice to see the hypocrisy finally broadcasted for all to see.

Seymour is running a great campaign too. He has a knack for pointing out flaws without coming across too negative.

fungus pudding
19-09-2020, 04:53 PM
Well, It might help to raise revenue and hence take on less of that scary debt (1% fixed interest owned by our own rbnz) since these workers seem to be the only ones who pay tax.


What a stupid comment.

Panda-NZ-
19-09-2020, 05:00 PM
Seymour is running a great campaign too. He has a knack for pointing out flaws without coming across too negative.

He doesn't seem to be connecting with people when I see him on tv. too bland for this I think.


What a stupid comment.

If you don't have an ambition to raise incomes but actually want to cut taxes, then how will there not be more debt.

fungus pudding
19-09-2020, 07:47 PM
If you don't have an ambition to raise incomes but actually want to cut taxes, then how will there not be more debt.

Your comment that only those on minimum wages pay tax shows appalling ignorance. 24% of income tax is paid by the top 3% of earners. Those with incomes over $100,000 pay 42% of the total. Those under $50,000 pay only 19% of the total, yet comprise an extremely high percentage of earners.

Baa_Baa
19-09-2020, 07:51 PM
Your comment that only those on minimum wages pay tax shows appalling ignorance. 24% of income tax is paid by the top 3% of earners. Those with incomes over $100,000 pay 42% of the total. Those under $50,000 pay only 19% of the total, yet comprise an extremely high percentage of earners.

You’re talking to a paid shill of the Labour Party, obviously lowly paid as they are completely and utterly ignorant. An embarrassment to the Labour Party.

Panda-NZ-
19-09-2020, 08:15 PM
Your comment that only those on minimum wages pay tax shows appalling ignorance. 24% of income tax is paid by the top 3% of earners. Those with incomes over $100,000 pay 42% of the total. Those under $50,000 pay only 19% of the total, yet comprise an extremely high percentage of earners.


I didn't mean only these workers and you should obviously know that.


You’re talking to a paid shill of the Labour Party, obviously lowly paid as they are completely and utterly ignorant. An embarrassment to the Labour Party.

Not at all but the sort of stuff that's coming from the other side forces me to correct some pretty mistaken ways of thinking. So take a step outside the newstalk echo chamber. :)

To be honest I don't think real kiwis care about the "scandals" posted here now and again, or on Newstalk. A bugee jumping subsidy.. really.

fungus pudding
20-09-2020, 07:56 AM
I didn't mean only these workers and you should obviously know that.



No. I am not a mind-reader. That's how it reads, although there is no reference to the post you are commenting on, and btw what on earth is Nationals GST refund scheme you were on about in post 6263?

tim23
20-09-2020, 06:17 PM
You’re talking to a paid shill of the Labour Party, obviously lowly paid as they are completely and utterly ignorant. An embarrassment to the Labour Party.

Oh dear - so if one is poorly paid maybe a cleaner or kitchenhand they are unworthy - a typical blue blood comment, sad really

tim23
20-09-2020, 06:20 PM
A 5k pay rise for a min wage 40 hour worker, and an extra week off on top of the 7+ weeks an employee currently gets. $8.50 coffees anyone?

All I can say is - Diddums

porkandpuha
20-09-2020, 06:46 PM
All I can say is - Diddums

Thats the extent of most of your comments to be fair..

Baa_Baa
20-09-2020, 07:11 PM
All I can say is - Diddums

It’s extraordinary I think that you post on a share forum, so presumably are an investor (?) and yet have no idea it seems, that these policies are paid for by the businesses we invest in. They are not paid by the tax payer, ergo the government, and yet the government can decide that they will burden business with additional expenses without any consideration as to whether those additional costs are warranted or affordable. Are you an investor? Do you care about the viability of Your investments? Do you care about whose making the decisions about your companies expenses?

tim23
20-09-2020, 07:49 PM
It’s extraordinary I think that you post on a share forum, so presumably are an investor (?) and yet have no idea it seems, that these policies are paid for by the businesses we invest in. They are not paid by the tax payer, ergo the government, and yet the government can decide that they will burden business with additional expenses without any consideration as to whether those additional costs are warranted or affordable. Are you an investor? Do you care about the viability of Your investments? Do you care about whose making the decisions about your companies expenses?

Thanks for the lecture

Baa_Baa
20-09-2020, 08:17 PM
Thanks for the lecture

You’re welcome, how about you answer the questions?

Do you care as an investor, which you have not yet admitted to being, that the government is making decisions that affect the viability of all businesses, including those that you can invest in on the market?

It’s not clear at all that you have a grip on the implications of these decisions of the government that could put numerous businesses out of business, some of which are listed companies.

Some of which you may be invested in, not that we’d know this far.

So where exactly do you stand on this, are you towing a party line that affects all business viability, or perhaps not an investor and ambivalent?

It’s difficult to know where you come from with your adamant support for labour, even when its anti free market.

Time to fess up I think, tell us what your position is as an investor and reconcile that against having no power over decisions that affect the viability and returns of your investments

See if you can conjoin your politics with with investment ambitions. I think you are conflicted. But don’t want to admit it.

Panda-NZ-
21-09-2020, 01:04 AM
Maybe you are not noticing what is going on in the rest of the world. In your own bubble and it's quite sad.

we have among the most lightly regulated markets in the developed world and you can cash out at any time with our highly liquid market. Maybe you should consider that if it's all becoming a bit too much.

jonu
21-09-2020, 07:28 AM
Maybe you are not noticing what is going on in the rest of the world. In your own bubble and it's quite sad.

we have among the most lightly regulated markets in the developed world and you can cash out at any time with our highly liquid market. Maybe you should consider that if it's all becoming a bit too much.

Now you're talking Panda-NZ. Said like a true leftie. Cut off the hand that feeds you. Plenty of investors and business people from both here and overseas are getting more and more nervous about Labour's bottomless pit of goodies and debt. What do you think happens when they take your advice?

greater fool
21-09-2020, 09:39 AM
This is a kinda pointless weird rant. Just put out there to let the conspiracy theorists pick it apart. :scared:

https://envirowatchrangitikei.wordpress.com/2020/09/18/jacinda-arderns-covid-treason/

fungus pudding
21-09-2020, 10:02 AM
Maybe you are not noticing what is going on in the rest of the world. In your own bubble and it's quite sad.

we have among the most lightly regulated markets in the developed world and you can cash out at any time with our highly liquid market. Maybe you should consider that if it's all becoming a bit too much.

And maybe you will realise that it is impossible to know who or what you are replying to.

Panda-NZ-
21-09-2020, 10:36 AM
Now you're talking Panda-NZ. Said like a true leftie. Cut off the hand that feeds you. Plenty of investors and business people from both here and overseas are getting more and more nervous about Labour's bottomless pit of goodies and debt. What do you think happens when they take your advice?

Goodies are a stimulus and all of it ends up with a landlord or business. why would anyone worry about debt when every country is taking it on. It's a useful tool in many cases.

jonu
21-09-2020, 12:07 PM
Goodies are a stimulus and all of it ends up with a landlord or business. why would anyone worry about debt when every country is taking it on. It's a useful tool in many cases.

So now you are saying that Labour is a party of the Landed Gentry! Their constituent base can get stuffed and be good little taxpayers and pay off the debt.

What does Labour actually stand for?

Panda-NZ-
21-09-2020, 12:46 PM
I'm saying it doesn't matter which side is in for most of the well run businesses.

NZX and house prices both up where they are down in Australia.
We're #1 in business freedom up from 2 and 3 under the last low ambition team ..

jonu
21-09-2020, 12:51 PM
I'm saying it doesn't matter which side is in for most of the well run businesses.

NZX and house prices both up where they are down in Australia.
We're #1 in business freedom up from 2.

Of course it matters. Labour are promising more sick leave, higher minimum wage and a new public holiday. The cost of which will all fall on business. Seems you and the Labour Cabinet are about the same level of economic understanding.

Balance
21-09-2020, 12:51 PM
Oh dear - so if one is poorly paid maybe a cleaner or kitchenhand they are unworthy - a typical blue blood comment, sad really

An engineer with experience gets paid $150,000+ whileas a cleaner with 20 years experience gets paid $40,000. Why?

One is obviously more valuable than the other and that is the reality of society.

Unworthy does not come into it but that's how peasants think and that term & it’s inappropriate use is what defines tim23. You can take the peasant out of the village but you cannot take the village out of the peasant.

dobby41
21-09-2020, 01:01 PM
An engineer gets paid $100,000 while as a cleaner gets paid $40,000.

One is obviously more valuable than the other and that is the reality of society.

Unworthy - that's how peasants think and that nicely defines tim23.

Are they though? Not quite so cut and dried.
A rubbish collector may get paid $40k also but when the rubbish mounts up people get upset that they aren't working.
When the poorly paid nurse aides aren't there to nurse aide people get upset.
When the engineer isn't engineering they don't notice for quite a while (if ever).

(PS - don't bother to try and categorise me as communist - I'm just pointing out the fallacy of your trope)

blackcap
21-09-2020, 01:02 PM
Are they though? Not quite so cut and dried.
A rubbish collector may get paid $40k also but when the rubbish mounts up people get upset that they aren't working.
When the poorly paid nurse aides aren't there to nurse aide people get upset.
When the engineer isn't engineering they don't notice for quite a while (if ever).

(PS - don't bother to try and categorise me as communist - I'm just pointing out the fallacy of your trope)

What a silly argument you bring there.

Panda-NZ-
21-09-2020, 01:07 PM
Are they though? Not quite so cut and dried.
A rubbish collector may get paid $40k also but when the rubbish mounts up people get upset that they aren't working.




Yes we know which workers are essential now. The nats provided them with little over their nine years except stood by while their rent continued to increase.

"Nothing we can do to fix it". sums up their approach to things I think.

Balance
21-09-2020, 01:35 PM
Are they though? Not quite so cut and dried.
A rubbish collector may get paid $40k also but when the rubbish mounts up people get upset that they aren't working.
When the poorly paid nurse aides aren't there to nurse aide people get upset.
When the engineer isn't engineering they don't notice for quite a while (if ever).

(PS - don't bother to try and categorise me as communist - I'm just pointing out the fallacy of your trope)

Rubbish collection - anyone can do.

Engineering - not everyone can do.

porkandpuha
21-09-2020, 01:43 PM
Rubbish collection - anyone can do.

Engineering - not everyone can do.

Beat me to it. Amazing how neither of them could work it out for themselves.

dobby41
21-09-2020, 02:54 PM
Rubbish collection - anyone can do.

Engineering - not everyone can do.

I understand that fully and know why I get the $150k not the $40k.
Though anyone can do it not everyone wants to do it - obviously there are enough, at the moment, who want to do it that the rate is low (supply and demand).

Teachers and nurses (and Police) have been an interesting example where the supply/demand model had broken down.
Interesting how there was low supply and high demand for both but the pay rate didn't go up. Being mostly publicly employed broke the linkage.

You said 'more valuable' - I was suggesting a different valuation method.

dobby41
21-09-2020, 02:55 PM
Beat me to it. Amazing how neither of them could work it out for themselves.

Thanks - I appreciate your useful input. :t_up:

jonu
21-09-2020, 05:18 PM
This makes the Greens spendup in Taranaki look almost sensible. That sneaky Grant Robertson has been in the pork barrel at our expense. Clear and Transparent....that's what we were promised wasn't it?

https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2020/09/is-public-bankrolling-labours-bid-to.html

"Clearly" they are happy to spend our money to win seats without even a business plan or evidence of economic benefit. Labour "Transparently" has it snout in our trough for its own political purposes.

Gee it must be a hell of a rush to have billions of dollars of other peoples money to wallow in while you guzzle at the trough. The moniker "Piggy" might just have a new incarnation in that rotund Finance Minister who is sniffling his way through our grandchildren's taxes for his own power grab.

iceman
22-09-2020, 05:04 AM
This makes the Greens spendup in Taranaki look almost sensible. That sneaky Grant Robertson has been in the pork barrel at our expense. Clear and Transparent....that's what we were promised wasn't it?

https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2020/09/is-public-bankrolling-labours-bid-to.html

"Clearly" they are happy to spend our money to win seats without even a business plan or evidence of economic benefit. Labour "Transparently" has it snout in our trough for its own political purposes.

Gee it must be a hell of a rush to have billions of dollars of other peoples money to wallow in while you guzzle at the trough. The moniker "Piggy" might just have a new incarnation in that rotund Finance Minister who is sniffling his way through our grandchildren's taxes for his own power grab.

More of what was promised in the attachment here:
11953

No wonder the PM doesn't want to talk policy, only COVID

Balance
22-09-2020, 06:22 AM
More of what was promised in the attachment here:
11953

No wonder the PM doesn't want to talk policy, only COVID

2019 was to be year of delivery, remember?

Officially, 2020 is the year of Spin to cover up the non delivery.

What a bunch of incompetents.

jonu
22-09-2020, 06:54 AM
More of what was promised in the attachment here:
11953

No wonder the PM doesn't want to talk policy, only COVID

Wow that's a damning list!

The only one that they might get a boost on is the renewable energy due to the smelter closure, which of course, is none of their doing.

The more their failings are exposed, the less Clear and Transparent they get.

tim23
22-09-2020, 05:17 PM
An engineer with experience gets paid $150,000+ whileas a cleaner with 20 years experience gets paid $40,000. Why?

One is obviously more valuable than the other and that is the reality of society.

Unworthy does not come into it but that's how peasants think and that term & it’s inappropriate use is what defines tim23. You can take the peasant out of the village but you cannot take the village out of the peasant.

Well the cleaner and the supermarket worker were essential services recently - highly valued (but poorly paid) then but your memory has quickly faded.. Meanwhile the Engineer (highly skilled no argument from me there) was probably still being highly paid at home.

Balance
22-09-2020, 05:23 PM
Well the cleaner and the supermarket worker were essential services recently - highly valued (but poorly paid) then but your memory has quickly faded.. Meanwhile the Engineer (highly skilled no argument from me there) was probably still being highly paid at home.

Government of incompetents designating supermarkets & cleaning services essential - does not change the fact that there are plenty of workers who can do the menial job of the cleaner & supermarket worker - in fact, their pay should be reduced to reflect the increased supply of tens of thousands of available workers due to the mishandling of the lockdown by the team of incompetents.

Welcome to real world, grasshopper.

westerly
22-09-2020, 06:22 PM
An engineer with experience gets paid $150,000+ whileas a cleaner with 20 years experience gets paid $40,000. Why?

One is obviously more valuable than the other and that is the reality of society.

Unworthy does not come into it but that's how peasants think and that term & it’s inappropriate use is what defines tim23. You can take the peasant out of the village but you cannot take the village out of the peasant.

Be carefull when the peasants revolt. You could well be their first target.

westerly

Balance
22-09-2020, 07:38 PM
Be carefull when the peasants revolt. You could well be their first target.

westerly

Can't be that many peasant class thinkers like tim23 out there, surely?

boysy
22-09-2020, 07:42 PM
Think you’re part of the 31% balance ....

iceman
23-09-2020, 05:20 AM
Think you’re part of the 31% balance ....

3 weeks is a long time in politics. Jacinda's lacklustre performance last night, where she showed once again she has little but slogans, may have reduced the gap a little.

blackcap
23-09-2020, 06:41 AM
3 weeks is a long time in politics. Jacinda's lacklustre performance last night, where she showed once again she has little but slogans, may have reduced the gap a little.

What is telling for me is that even though Judith is supposedly unloved and hated she is leading the MSM polls on who won the debate last night. Jacinda was floundering out there, Judith was enjoying it and she softened her up nicely for the next two. 3 weeks is a very long time in politics. Jacinda was nothing but slogans. Empty and no substance.

iceman
23-09-2020, 06:44 AM
What is telling for me is that even though Judith is supposedly unloved and hated she is leading the MSM polls on who won the debate last night. Jacinda was floundering out there, Judith was enjoying it and she softened her up nicely for the next two. 3 weeks is a very long time in politics. Jacinda was nothing but slogans. Empty and no substance.

I was surprised how uninterested Jacinda seemed to be and there was no flare there. I expected different.

tga_trader
23-09-2020, 06:59 AM
What is telling for me is that even though Judith is supposedly unloved and hated she is leading the MSM polls on who won the debate last night. Jacinda was floundering out there, Judith was enjoying it and she softened her up nicely for the next two. 3 weeks is a very long time in politics. Jacinda was nothing but slogans. Empty and no substance.

Judith definitely won and it was obvious to people that know what is going on, but to the uninformed all they see is someone attacking the most loved prime minister ever. I'm not sure if the eye rolling and under the breath comments will be doing Judith any favours, and she needs to tread the fine line of holding the government to account while not over stepping into 'attack politics'.

jonu
23-09-2020, 07:00 AM
What is telling for me is that even though Judith is supposedly unloved and hated she is leading the MSM polls on who won the debate last night. Jacinda was floundering out there, Judith was enjoying it and she softened her up nicely for the next two. 3 weeks is a very long time in politics. Jacinda was nothing but slogans. Empty and no substance.

Didn't see it, but not surprised. Hard to be enthused when you have massively failed in your delivery.

dobby41
23-09-2020, 07:28 AM
Government of incompetents designating supermarkets & cleaning services essential - does not change the fact that there are plenty of workers who can do the menial job of the cleaner & supermarket worker - in fact, their pay should be reduced to reflect the increased supply of tens of thousands of available workers due to the mishandling of the lockdown by the team of incompetents.

Welcome to real world, grasshopper.

Real world it may be but does it have to be that way?
This is very much right wing thinking - you have little skill so should just accept the crumbs that fall off my table.
Like reviving the class system from the UK that the early settlers were trying to escape from.
There has to be a better way than 'us and them'.

You will be one of the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
(Added that bit for levity. :scared:)

dobby41
23-09-2020, 07:30 AM
What is telling for me is that even though Judith is supposedly unloved and hated she is leading the MSM polls on who won the debate last night. Jacinda was floundering out there, Judith was enjoying it and she softened her up nicely for the next two. 3 weeks is a very long time in politics. Jacinda was nothing but slogans. Empty and no substance.

Judith isn't leading the poll for preferred PM.
These people seem to think differently - mostly.
Maybe they were watching a different debate.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122857815/election-2020-contrasting-styles-and-some-substance--five-experts-on-the-first-tv-leaders-debate-of-nzs-election

blackcap
23-09-2020, 07:52 AM
Judith isn't leading the poll for preferred PM.
These people seem to think differently - mostly.
Maybe they were watching a different debate.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122857815/election-2020-contrasting-styles-and-some-substance--five-experts-on-the-first-tv-leaders-debate-of-nzs-election

I was not talking about leading the poll for preferred PM. By the way, the PM pretty much always leads them regardless. I was talking about who won the debate. And all the momentum is with Judith. You have provided a few anecdotes, (anecdotes don't vote and are these anecdotes per chance academics?) the latest version of the poll has Judith on 55% and Jacinda on 39%.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367099

Balance
23-09-2020, 07:55 AM
I was not talking about leading the poll for preferred PM. By the way, the PM pretty much always leads them regardless. I was talking about who won the debate. And all the momentum is with Judith. You have provided a few anecdotes, (anecdotes don't vote) the latest version of the poll has Judith on 55% and Jacinda on 39%.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367099

Was clear from the debate that Cindy had nothing to offer by way of delivery, just a lot of spin.

Cindy referred to the mosque killings, natural disaster and pandemic as her achievements!

Baa_Baa
23-09-2020, 07:58 AM
Didn't see it, but not surprised. Hard to be enthused when you have massively failed in your delivery.

If you missed the leaders debate and still want to see it, it's available for viewing on https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/1-news-vote-2020 TVNZ On Demand.

I thought Jacinda came across as awkward and uncomfortable, struggling to find a comfortable position between failure to deliver (almost anything) and trotting out slogans. Judith on the other hand had a very strong grip on the data and seemed to revel in the debate, calling out Labours' failures and hollow promises while clearly stating what National would do differently.

Not that I'm voting for either of them, but it was an interesting debate to watch, imho.

fungus pudding
23-09-2020, 08:33 AM
If you missed the leaders debate and still want to see it, it's available for viewing on https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/1-news-vote-2020 TVNZ On Demand.

I thought Jacinda came across as awkward and uncomfortable, struggling to find a comfortable position between failure to deliver (almost anything) and trotting out slogans. Judith on the other hand had a very strong grip on the data and seemed to revel in the debate, calling out Labours' failures and hollow promises while clearly stating what National would do differently.

Not that I'm voting for either of them, but it was an interesting debate to watch, imho.

Neither of them came across particularly well, but the outright loser was the moderator, John Campbell.

tga_trader
23-09-2020, 08:38 AM
Neither of them came across particularly well, but the outright loser was the moderator, John Campbell.
I didn't think he was too bad at making sure order was maintained, but he certainly failed to get clarification on several points from both sides.
Mostly the problem was the whole thing felt so rushed. There is far too much to talk about to squeeze it into the confines of 1.5hours less ads. It should be 3 hours long and tax payer funded so there is no ad breaks to destroy the flow.

porkandpuha
23-09-2020, 09:33 AM
I didn't think he was too bad at making sure order was maintained, but he certainly failed to get clarification on several points from both sides.
Mostly the problem was the whole thing felt so rushed. There is far too much to talk about to squeeze it into the confines of 1.5hours less ads. It should be 3 hours long and tax payer funded so there is no ad breaks to destroy the flow.

I thought he did well to stay unbiased, but agree he didn't allow for great points to be made. A good moderator knows in advance exactly how JC and JA will answer each question, and he should have a follow up question/rebuttal ready to go. That's what makes Hosking one of the best interviewers in the country.

In saying that, Judith needed to better finish the points she was trying to make by herself. Simply stating she wants to amend the RMA doesn't mean much to the mums and dads watching at home, most of them wouldn't even know what RMA stands for. She needs to quickly explain why the RMA in its current form is restrictive, and then explain how the changes would make a difference in simple Simon terms. Heck, create a slogan for it if you have to :D

boysy
23-09-2020, 05:10 PM
I thought he did well to stay unbiased, but agree he didn't allow for great points to be made. A good moderator knows in advance exactly how JC and JA will answer each question, and he should have a follow up question/rebuttal ready to go. That's what makes Hosking one of the best interviewers in the country.

In saying that, Judith needed to better finish the points she was trying to make by herself. Simply stating she wants to amend the RMA doesn't mean much to the mums and dads watching at home, most of them wouldn't even know what RMA stands for. She needs to quickly explain why the RMA in its current form is restrictive, and then explain how the changes would make a difference in simple Simon terms. Heck, create a slogan for it if you have to :D

Fell off my chair laughing MH one of the best interviewers made my day - the most biased commentator i think their has ever been on the MSM his fawning over national was a joke not sure he asked JK or BE any hard questions every , much like his facials on the night of the election when he found out Winnie went left - priceless.

Crusher can certainly sling mud and appeal to poor old farmers but not the urban voters - the fact she has to cosy up to farmers just goes to show how worried they are of losing voters to act.

tim23
23-09-2020, 05:27 PM
Was clear from the debate that Cindy had nothing to offer by way of delivery, just a lot of spin.

Cindy referred to the mosque killings, natural disaster and pandemic as her achievements!

So what? and your lot used to bang on about getting us through the GFC and the earthquake, nothing new - its politics old boy.

tim23
23-09-2020, 05:29 PM
Government of incompetents designating supermarkets & cleaning services essential - does not change the fact that there are plenty of workers who can do the menial job of the cleaner & supermarket worker - in fact, their pay should be reduced to reflect the increased supply of tens of thousands of available workers due to the mishandling of the lockdown by the team of incompetents.

Welcome to real world, grasshopper.

You really have no idea you are badly misinformed (again) - the massive job losses predicted have yet to materialise, granted they may but not today old boy.

jonu
23-09-2020, 05:58 PM
You really have no idea you are badly misinformed (again) - the massive job losses predicted have yet to materialise, granted they may but not today old boy.

Thanks to Cindy spending our money on wage subsidy up to the election. No cynicism there.

artemis
23-09-2020, 06:08 PM
You really have no idea you are badly misinformed (again) - the massive job losses predicted have yet to materialise, granted they may but not today old boy.

Over 4000 new people went on to Jobseeker Support in the week ending 11 September. We can assume they all lost their jobs. Quite possibly there are others who have also lost jobs but not showing up in the JS system yet. Possibly still on the CIRP (lost job but still on the special relief payment, over 16,000 still on CIRP) or have moved to other benefits.

You might not consider 4000 lost jobs in a week massive but it is certainly not trivial and represents a lot of stress and misery. And we can expect most of those on CIRP to move to the JS soon as entitlement comes to an end.

Balance
23-09-2020, 06:13 PM
You really have no idea you are badly misinformed (again) - the massive job losses predicted have yet to materialise, granted they may but not today old boy.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300108644/wage-subsidy-completely-masked-true-state-of-labour-market-top-economist-says

Ignorance is bliss - 4 legs good, 2 legs better. So easily fooled by Cindy’s cynical use of taxpayers’ funds to stay in power to fluff around like she has in the last 3 years.

‘More than 60 per cent more people are now receiving Jobseeker Support work-ready benefits than the same time a year ago – and the number of people aged under 24 on the benefit has leapt 80 per cent.‘

Panda-NZ-
23-09-2020, 06:36 PM
You really have no idea you are badly misinformed (again) - the massive job losses predicted have yet to materialise, granted they may but not today old boy.

The rate went down to 4% until the second lockdown.

Nats have decades long of experience appealing to mostly low education farmers and creating an imaginary urban/rural split so that is where the solid 30% for Judy comes from. Similar to the 40% of trump voters who don't shift no matter what.

I and most city and suburban voters want their sprinklers to work when the water is turned on frankly.

tim23
23-09-2020, 06:44 PM
Thanks to Cindy spending our money on wage subsidy up to the election. No cynicism there.

The employer wage subsidy is well finished so you need to get your facts correct, anyway what would you have done better?

porkandpuha
23-09-2020, 06:51 PM
Fell off my chair laughing MH one of the best interviewers made my day - the most biased commentator i think their has ever been on the MSM his fawning over national was a joke not sure he asked JK or BE any hard questions every , much like his facials on the night of the election when he found out Winnie went left - priceless.

Crusher can certainly sling mud and appeal to poor old farmers but not the urban voters - the fact she has to cosy up to farmers just goes to show how worried they are of losing voters to act.

1. Winnie didn't go left on election night.

2. Nobody understands the topic of the interview better than Hosking, no matter what the conversation is about. He's researched, and he knows what the interviewee will say before they say it. It allows for better flow and for better interrogation on any BS. Of course he is biased, they all are. That doesn't mean he doesn't know his stuff which is the point being made here. Keep up.

porkandpuha
23-09-2020, 06:55 PM
The rate went down to 4% until the second lockdown.

Nats have decades long of experience appealing to mostly low education farmers and creating an imaginary urban/rural split so that is where the solid 30% for Judy comes from. Similar to the 40% of trump voters who don't shift no matter what.

I and most city and suburban voters want their sprinklers to work when the water is turned on frankly.

Are you sure you want to quote that 4% number given that on the day it was released, employment minister Willie Jackson is on the record saying it was likely incorrect. Economists had it at 7%, and it's a lot worse now.

Panda-NZ-
23-09-2020, 07:16 PM
Are you sure you want to quote that 4% number given that on the day it was released, employment minister Willie Jackson is on the record saying it was likely incorrect. Economists had it at 7%, and it's a lot worse now.

It has been going down consistently since 2017 rather than staying in the high 4's for years under national. Those figures are before covid and are reliable.

tim23
23-09-2020, 07:20 PM
1. Winnie didn't go left on election night.

2. Nobody understands the topic of the interview better than Hosking, no matter what the conversation is about. He's researched, and he knows what the interviewee will say before they say it. It allows for better flow and for better interrogation on any BS. Of course he is biased, they all are. That doesn't mean he doesn't know his stuff which is the point being made here. Keep up.

Oh no a Hosking fan - surely you're better than that?

fungus pudding
23-09-2020, 07:30 PM
Oh no a Hosking fan - surely you're better than that?

pork andpuha does not claim to be a fan of Hosking, or even to like him. But you'd have to be pretty thick to disagree with his/her comment.

jonu
23-09-2020, 07:31 PM
The employer wage subsidy is well finished so you need to get your facts correct, anyway what would you have done better?

Cindy extended it to run until Sept 1st, at that time within 3 weeks of the original election date.

What would I have done better? I wouldn't have committed to 150 BILLION new debt without an exit strategy from endless lockdowns and closed borders. Six months in and still no exit strategy other than a vaccine which may never materialise. If there is no vaccine we will have to let the virus run at some point, in which case most of this new debt is complete waste. Comforting thought eh?

I would have been far less restrictive on what businesses had to close at level 4. Virtually everyone in NZ went through a supermarket under level 4. As far as I'm aware, not 1 case of transmission was tracked to a supermarket. Butchers and Greengrocers were obvious to everyone at the time.

There is a hell of a list, some with the benefit of hindsight, most, glaringly obvious to anyone who hadn't been cowering in the fear that Cindy and her cohort ramped up.

porkandpuha
23-09-2020, 07:35 PM
It has been going down consistently since 2017 rather than staying in the high 4's for years under national. Those figures are before covid and are reliable.

Just not reliable enough for the employment minister at the most recent update.

Also out of pure coincidence im sure, the number of public servants (waste) employed has also surged since 2017.

artemis
24-09-2020, 05:05 AM
The employer wage subsidy is well finished so you need to get your facts correct, anyway what would you have done better?

CIRP is still open for a couple of months and is a covid subsidy costing tens of millions of dollars. Over 16000 on it now and some or most will move to Jobseeker when their 12 weeks ends. If they haven't found work they will be pretty unhappy with the much reduced JS rate.

Balance
24-09-2020, 07:10 AM
The unemployed situation - shows how easily the ‘4 legs good, 2 legs better’ brigade are hoodwinked by Cindy & her team of incompetents who have delivered bugger all.

And they want another 3 years from the All Spin but No Delivery Cindy team.

Balance
24-09-2020, 07:24 AM
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/election-2020-the-whole-truth/#/1193327467/first-home-buyers-have-little-to-cheer

So much for Cindy’s pledge to make homes affordable for 1st home buyers.

What a freaking disaster this pathetically inadequate and good for nothing but slogan mouthing woman is.

artemis
24-09-2020, 07:56 AM
2019 - the year of delivery.

2019 - The Prime Minister on 2 minute achievements vid.

2020 election campaign - delivery crickets, aspirations lots.

Balance
24-09-2020, 08:02 AM
https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/jobkeeper-bloodbath-looming-with-job-losses-redundancies-expected/news-story/3b52b6cc9ad43bd6ce23baae6b6881b1

An indication of what awaits NZ post the election - an unemployment bloodbath.

Balance
24-09-2020, 08:14 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367372

This is Cindy & Labour at its most cynical - splashing out billions of dollars on handouts is good, but tax cuts for the hard pressed middle income earners is bad.

Excerpt : ‘Labour has gone to some lengths to convince voters the tax cuts are actually bad for them. Ardern and Robertson have talked about the tax cuts as if they are lollies being offered by a strange man, calling them "unrealistic" and "irresponsible".’

In other words, Labour is about rewarding dependency but punishing thrift & hard work.

You Labourite lot can keep your Cindy & reap what you sow in the future. Despicable politics of envy & vote buying with taxpayers’ money - Cindy & her team who cannot even deliver a loaf of bread from the oven.

iceman
24-09-2020, 08:33 AM
You really have no idea you are badly misinformed (again) - the massive job losses predicted have yet to materialise, granted they may but not today old boy.

Of course we can continue hiding it by printing a $ BILLION each and every week and tripling debt in only 12 months. Personally I don't call that a plan.

blackcap
24-09-2020, 08:53 AM
For what its worth, I think the worm has finally turned. Yesterday I put $1,000 on National to provide the next PM at 15.50. That means that if Labour win I lose $1,000. If National win I take $14,500.

We shall see where this lands. I may trade some out but at these prices and after the debate and 3 weeks being a long time in politics I am comfortable with my position.

RTM
24-09-2020, 09:20 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367372

This is Cindy & Labour at its most cynical - splashing out billions of dollars on handouts is good, but tax cuts for the hard pressed middle income earners is bad.

Excerpt : ‘Labour has gone to some lengths to convince voters the tax cuts are actually bad for them. Ardern and Robertson have talked about the tax cuts as if they are lollies being offered by a strange man, calling them "unrealistic" and "irresponsible".’

In other words, Labour is about rewarding dependency but punishing thrift & hard work.

You Labourite lot can keep your Cindy & reap what you sow in the future. Despicable politics of envy & vote buying with taxpayers’ money - Cindy & her team who cannot even deliver a loaf of bread from the oven.

I don't like NATIONAL's idea of tax cuts at all. High chance the money will not get spent on stuff that keeps the wheels turning. Although personally we would benefit. I do like ACTS idea of reducing the GST tax, 15 ->10%. Seems like a better way to target any tax relief.

dobby41
24-09-2020, 09:41 AM
I don't like NATIONAL's idea of tax cuts at all. High chance the money will not get spent on stuff that keeps the wheels turning. Although personally we would benefit. I do like ACTS idea of reducing the GST tax, 15 ->10%. Seems like a better way to target any tax relief.

You are probably right on the spending.
Those that really need it (those under $40k) will get $8/week - that will set them up for life right?
If National won I'd like to see Act in a position to have some real heft - up to now they haven't really had any power at all.
Have Act shown the numbers on what the drop would mean in terms of revenue lost verses extra spending power to different income bands?
National have talked about the 'average' earner with their tax cuts but not broken it down to how many are in any band.

iceman
24-09-2020, 09:50 AM
You are probably right on the spending.
Those that really need it (those under $40k) will get $8/week - that will set them up for life right?
If National won I'd like to see Act in a position to have some real heft - up to now they haven't really had any power at all.
Have Act shown the numbers on what the drop would mean in terms of revenue lost verses extra spending power to different income bands?
National have talked about the 'average' earner with their tax cuts but not broken it down to how many are in any band.

This Labour response is tired. Those earning under $40k are not paying any tax at all so of course they don't get a benefit from a tax cut. They are already receiving more in tax credits than the tax they pay. Why do you have so much against the average Kiwi family getting a bit of a help for a few months ?

I do however agree with RTM that ACT's policy of a temporary lower GST across the board would be my preference, but Labour's argument about "$8/week better of" is typical rubbish and disregard for hard working families.

Jay
24-09-2020, 09:53 AM
Which ever party (s) is in power I think the Tax brackets need to be shifted to take into account the movement (up) in average wages and put on a regular review cycle

I think too that most of the tax cut would go on paying down debt etc and not spent as the intention and IMHO all things being equal - that is you are coping on current income, would be the sensible thing to do and as dobby says those that really need do not get a lot and will spend it, but will not be a huge help to the economy.

Voting: Undecided at this point but won't be NZ1st

dobby41
24-09-2020, 10:08 AM
This Labour response is tired. Those earning under $40k are not paying any tax at all so of course they don't get a benefit from a tax cut. They are already receiving more in tax credits than the tax they pay. Why do you have so much against the average Kiwi family getting a bit of a help for a few months ?

I do however agree with RTM that ACT's policy of a temporary lower GST across the board would be my preference, but Labour's argument about "$8/week better of" is typical rubbish and disregard for hard working families.

A typical response - why do you assume that I have anything against the average Kiwi family?
I just think harping on that the 'average' family will be $60/wk better off ignore the half that don't have enough now and won't be much better off at all.
I'll be $60 better off too, I don't need it but I won't be giving it back either. Actually I may increase my 'giving' by $60/wk.

dobby41
24-09-2020, 10:09 AM
Which ever party (s) is in power I think the Tax brackets need to be shifted to take into account the movement (up) in average wages and put on a regular review cycle

Amen to that - should be linked to inflation or the average wage rise to keep the relativity.
National, I think, pledged that at one point but that's gone.

fungus pudding
24-09-2020, 10:40 AM
I don't like NATIONAL's idea of tax cuts at all. High chance the money will not get spent on stuff that keeps the wheels turning. Although personally we would benefit. I do like ACTS idea of reducing the GST tax, 15 ->10%. Seems like a better way to target any tax relief.

I don't. Act have some excellent ideas, but lowering GST on a temporary basis. isn't one of them. It's messy and administratively a nightmare for businesses and the IRD. Why not leave it alone and bring in a tax free bracket on the first xxxx % of earnings? For a start we (nearly) all have a common financial year date. Not so with GST, but there are more complications than that. We have probably the best GST system in the world - leave well alone. Any exemptions or temporary adjustments will destroy its simplicity.

Balance
24-09-2020, 01:43 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367479

Photo op - back to wearing the hijab (symbol of oppression) despite pleas from oppressed Muslim women in countries like Iran for Cindy not to do so.

How cynical can you get? The Muslim votes are more important than human rights obviously to the spinning Cindy.

jonu
24-09-2020, 03:43 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367479

Photo op - back to wearing the hijab (symbol of oppression) despite pleas from oppressed Muslim women in countries like Iran for Cindy not to do so.

How cynical can you get? The Muslim votes are more important than human rights obviously to the spinning Cindy.

Oh the irony. The Muslim chap speaking says we musn't let this change who we are. Doesn't bother Cindy when there's a vote to be had. Whip on that hijab and throw your principles out the window to appease. Hope it costs her votes with Muslim women who want shod of the hijab, and those votes of kiwis who think it unreasonable to subjugate women in this way.

tim23
24-09-2020, 04:25 PM
pork andpuha does not claim to be a fan of Hosking, or even to like him. But you'd have to be pretty thick to disagree with his/her comment.

Another Hosking fan - that's cringeworthy.

tim23
24-09-2020, 04:27 PM
CIRP is still open for a couple of months and is a covid subsidy costing tens of millions of dollars. Over 16000 on it now and some or most will move to Jobseeker when their 12 weeks ends. If they haven't found work they will be pretty unhappy with the much reduced JS rate.

Its not an employer wage subsidy.

fungus pudding
24-09-2020, 04:56 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367479

Photo op - back to wearing the hijab (symbol of oppression) despite pleas from oppressed Muslim women in countries like Iran for Cindy not to do so.

How cynical can you get? The Muslim votes are more important than human rights obviously to the spinning Cindy.

Where's the evidence of pleas from Muslim women for her to not wear the head gear ?

artemis
24-09-2020, 05:03 PM
Its not an employer wage subsidy.

Of course CIRP is not an employer wage subsidy, it is really really different eh.

fungus pudding
24-09-2020, 05:14 PM
Another Hosking fan - that's cringeworthy.

Who is another fan ?

blackcap
24-09-2020, 05:24 PM
Where's the evidence of pleas from Muslim women for her to not wear the head gear ?

That's what subjugation is all about. No chance to plea. Cindy is enabling.

jonu
24-09-2020, 05:32 PM
Where's the evidence of pleas from Muslim women for her to not wear the head gear ?


This for a start

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/116195738/dont-let-jacinda-arderns-headscarf-send-the-wrong-message

There are plenty of Muslim women around the world who refuse to where the hijab. Some of them are even ALLOWED not to!

But Go Cindy! Encourage subjugation of women. She's sooo progressive!

Bjauck
24-09-2020, 07:00 PM
This for a start

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/116195738/dont-let-jacinda-arderns-headscarf-send-the-wrong-message

There are plenty of Muslim women around the world who refuse to where the hijab. Some of them are even ALLOWED not to!

But Go Cindy! Encourage subjugation of women. She's sooo progressive! It seems that Ardern has chosen a reasonably strict interpretation of dressing modestly. She presumably chose this conservative modesty for its symbolic value. The clothing that Muslim women choose does vary according to the nature and the culture of where they live.

According to Pew Research over half of Muslim women in the USA do not cover their hair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

Balance
25-09-2020, 06:04 AM
It seems that Ardern has chosen a reasonably strict interpretation of dressing modestly. She presumably chose this conservative modesty for its symbolic value. The clothing that Muslim women choose does vary according to the nature and the culture of where they live.

According to Pew Research over half of Muslim women in the USA do not cover their hair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

Countries like France & even Turkey ban the hijab - guess Cindy thinks she knows better than them?

As long as there’s votes, Cindy will always do what’s convenient - bugger human rights and all that garbage. Her high principles are solely to hoodwink the ‘4 legs good, 2 legs’ brigade. Pathetic fools.

Balance
25-09-2020, 06:38 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/426868/fact-check-has-state-housing-wait-list-increased-under-labour-coalition

Surely not! Collins’ claim of state housing list skyrocketing under Cindy is only somewhat true?

blackcap
25-09-2020, 06:42 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/426868/fact-check-has-state-housing-wait-list-increased-under-labour-coalition

Surely not! Collins’ claim of state housing list skyrocketing under Cindy is only somewhat true?

I thought that was one of the problems under National that Cindy was going to fix, along with child poverddy?

iceman
25-09-2020, 06:49 AM
Over 300 funds similar to this to around $ 16 MILLION being thrown about in the name of COVID. Straight from the printers in Wellington


11963

blackcap
25-09-2020, 06:53 AM
Over 300 funds similar to this to around $ 16 MILLION being thrown about in the name of COVID. Straight from the printers in Wellington


11963

That is sickening.

jonu
25-09-2020, 07:03 AM
That is sickening.

Hehe....would you define this as a hypermasculine space? Show us the love all you Labour luvvies. Show us the Lurve!

Balance
25-09-2020, 07:07 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367660

A good perspective on the cult of Cindy.

"The international glorification of Ardern, I noticed, was filling her and her party with a sense of great accomplishment that was, sorry to say, not always deserved. It was painting a rosy picture of life in New Zealand to rub in the faces of Trump's and Johnson's supporters. To be then recycled locally through flashy headlines, citing this or that posh American or British publication or platform.

For many Kiwis, adoring the Prime Minister became synonymous with patriotism, and it would manifest in various ways and places, including ones where it shouldn't.

Journalists have been attacked for daring to ask director general of health Dr Ashley Bloomfield slightly tough questions at his press conferences last month. Criticism and calls for accountability, online and in real life, are often met with insults and ridicule. The opponents on the other side are not holding back either.

Throughout my 12 years of living in New Zealand, political polarisation has never been wider, and more alarming.

Is this a healthy electoral environment? Do I really want to be part of it? I asked myself many times. The answer was always a bitter "no".

And so I've decided, with great reluctance, to be a passive voter. I'm leaving my ballot blank this year.

dobby41
25-09-2020, 07:30 AM
Countries like France & even Turkey ban the hijab - guess Cindy thinks she knows better than them?

France has NOT banned the Hijab - Jacinda knows better than you.
France has banned full face coverings - the Burqa.
Turkey has mostly lifted the ban in Universities, public schools and government buildings.

I find it interesting that the Hijab is very similar to head coverings that very Christian women wore years ago and much like a Nuns head covering - it is very reverent really.
It seems to be offensive only if worn for a Muslim reason.

Now the Burqa - quite a different kettle of fish.

dobby41
25-09-2020, 07:32 AM
Throughout my 12 years of living in New Zealand, political polarisation has never been wider, and more alarming.


I thought there was a lot of polarisation under Key - the Cult of Key was very strong.
Even allowed to pull pony tails with impunity.

Balance
25-09-2020, 07:35 AM
I thought there was a lot of polarisation under Key - the Cult of Key was very strong.
Even allowed to pull pony tails with impunity.

He delivered on multiple fronts despite his failings.

What has Cindy delivered in her year of delivery?

dobby41
25-09-2020, 07:49 AM
What has Cindy delivered in her year of delivery?

It seems endless ammo for your rants and ravings.

No comment on your Hijab lie?
No apology?

Balance
25-09-2020, 07:54 AM
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/847433454/from-niqab-to-n95

Balance
25-09-2020, 08:02 AM
France has NOT banned the Hijab - Jacinda knows better than you.
France has banned full face coverings - the Burqa.
Turkey has mostly lifted the ban in Universities, public schools and government buildings.

I find it interesting that the Hijab is very similar to head coverings that very Christian women wore years ago and much like a Nuns head covering - it is very reverent really.
It seems to be offensive only if worn for a Muslim reason.

Now the Burqa - quite a different kettle of fish.

Read this and tell us again that Cindy knows better.

If she does know better, she is intentionally then throwing dirt in the face of oppressed Muslim women.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/116195738/dont-let-jacinda-arderns-headscarf-send-the-wrong-message

dobby41
25-09-2020, 08:06 AM
Read this and tell us again that Cindy knows better.

If she does know better, she is intentionally then throwing dirt in the face of oppressed Muslim women.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/116195738/dont-let-jacinda-arderns-headscarf-send-the-wrong-message
An opinion piece and that person is entitled to their opinion (from a year ago).

You are unable to admit you are wrong - and you are.
Or do you stand by your statement on France and Turkey?

Countries like France & even Turkey ban the hijab - guess Cindy thinks she knows better than them? .

fungus pudding
25-09-2020, 08:19 AM
I thought that was one of the problems under National that Cindy was going to fix, along with child poverddy?

She's bin too busy.

Minerbarejet
25-09-2020, 09:00 AM
She's bin too busy.
Probably went over their heads, FP.

artemis
25-09-2020, 09:32 AM
1498 new Jobseeker benefit recipients last week. Better not say 1500 Judith.

Slightly less than the numbers coming off CIRP. That may indicate those have found jobs but not necessarily because of the CIRP criteria such as the very much increased partner income permitted for CIRP. (That means some CIRP recipients will not qualify for JS.)

fungus pudding
25-09-2020, 09:39 AM
Probably went over their heads, FP.

I'm always aiming too high. :t_up:

Balance
25-09-2020, 12:37 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300116810/election-2020-winston-peters-unleashes-on-labour-over-ihumtao-in-racerelations-speech-says-nz-first-stopped-deal-three-times

More revelations about the carry-on regardinh Ihumatoa with Labour.

dobby41
25-09-2020, 01:00 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300116810/election-2020-winston-peters-unleashes-on-labour-over-ihumtao-in-racerelations-speech-says-nz-first-stopped-deal-three-times

More revelations about the carry-on regardinh Ihumatoa with Labour.

Revelations?
definition - a surprising and previously unknown fact that has been disclosed to others.
This is Winston!

Still no admission that you were wrong?

Countries like France & even Turkey ban the hijab - guess Cindy thinks she knows better than them? .

Panda-NZ-
25-09-2020, 01:22 PM
I thought there was a lot of polarisation under Key - the Cult of Key was very strong.
Even allowed to pull pony tails with impunity.

The john key led-govt was a phrase that was thrown everywhere at the time.

Is judy still paying for likes on facebook?

boysy
25-09-2020, 03:03 PM
I’d be very interested to know what key achieved while in office, I do agree he was very capable at doing the following

-forgetting what he had or hadn’t said
-smiling while cooking a BBQ
- putting up GST when he said he wouldn’t
-doing nothing to solve the housing crisis he called in opposition.
- sold off state assets for a song.
- pulling on some poor girls pony tail repetitively whenever he went to his local cafe.

The one thing I think that worries me the most is his biggest regret in office was to not change the flag. He ended his time in office having used none of his political capital that was the worst thing - mr flip flop simply didn’t want to be on the wrong side of public opinion and achieved next to nothing over 9 years on power.

Bjauck
25-09-2020, 03:39 PM
France has NOT banned the Hijab - Jacinda knows better than you.
France has banned full face coverings - the Burqa.
Turkey has mostly lifted the ban in Universities, public schools and government buildings.

I find it interesting that the Hijab is very similar to head coverings that very Christian women wore years ago and much like a Nuns head covering - it is very reverent really.
It seems to be offensive only if worn for a Muslim reason.

Now the Burqa - quite a different kettle of fish. In the 1960's lots of women in the West used to wear scarves covering their hair. Then there is a the passage from the Christian bible:“Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.” (1 Corinthians 11:10)

So whether the head and hair is covered is not just an Islamic thing.

Bjauck
25-09-2020, 03:46 PM
...

Still no admission that you were wrong?

Just like Collins who refuses to condemn several of her MPs for making up a fake quote from Ardern. Nothing like untruths to boost the campaign I guess.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300116953/election-2020-judith-collins-refuses-to-condemn-false-quote-posted-by-her-mps

iceman
25-09-2020, 03:52 PM
Just like Collins who refuses to condemn several of her MPs for making up a fake quote from Ardern. Nothing like untruths to boost the campaign I guess.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300116953/election-2020-judith-collins-refuses-to-condemn-false-quote-posted-by-her-mps

This is too funny. Criticising TWO MPs for repeating the PM slagging farming once again but a slight misquote, that did not change at all what they were pointing out. But you also made up in your one sentence that there were "several" MPs involved when the article you posted names TWO.

"several
adjective [ not gradable ]
US /ˈsev·rəl, -ər·əl/

(of an amount or number) more than two and fewer than many; some:"

porkandpuha
25-09-2020, 05:17 PM
- putting up GST when he said he wouldn’t.

Offset by a redcution in income tax. This was means tested across all earners and everyone was better off.

The only people negatively effected by a GST increase combined with an income tax reduction, were those who were spending more than they earned. I would suggest if you were spending more than you earned you have bigger problems than JK tinkering with the tax system.

Bjauck
25-09-2020, 05:18 PM
This is too funny. Criticising TWO MPs for repeating the PM slagging farming once again but a slight misquote, that did not change at all what they were pointing out. But you also made up in your one sentence that there were "several" MPs involved when the article you posted names TWO.

"several
adjective [ not gradable ]
US /ˈsev·rəl, -ər·əl/

(of an amount or number) more than two and fewer than many; some:"

LOL. There is no such thing as a "slight misquote". It is a misquote. Are you saying that what the MPs were "pointing out" justified their "slight" misquote? I hope not because that would be another step to dystopia for me!

Anyway the misquote made by the MPs was not slight as it changed the meaning of what Ardern said in a significant way. It says a lot about Collins that she is prepared to let the misquotes by her MPs stand uncorrected. Maybe it is old fashioned to expect better from those seeking public office?

I went to a school in the 1980's. We used British dictionaries back then. We learnt the origin of words. Several is derived from "separare" to "pull apart." So "several" could include anything more than the single unity. Maybe the meaning of several has evolved? One of the meanings of "several" was "some or an inexact amount fewer than many." A "couple" was always two.

So I agree I could have been more specific and referred to two or a couple of MPs. I am not standing to be an MP though!

BTW I am voting for neither The greens nor Labour. However I have not seen or read anything that leads me to the conclusion that Ardern has it in for farmers or farming specifically

https://www.etymonline.com/word/several

Panda-NZ-
25-09-2020, 08:23 PM
Offset by a redcution in income tax. This was means tested across all earners and everyone was better off.



It was a broken promise though since he said he wouldn't.


However I have not seen or read anything that leads me to the conclusion that Ardern has it in for farmers or farming specifically

https://www.etymonline.com/word/several

Foneterra has been reformed after poor oversight by national.
Someone as PM who is respected overseas to sell our premium items.
Consistently lower NZD than under the last mob.

So there are plenty of reasons to stick with a team you are familiar with rather than take a chance.

iceman
25-09-2020, 10:56 PM
BTW I am voting for neither The greens nor Labour. However I have not seen or read anything that leads me to the conclusion that Ardern has it in for farmers or farming specifically

https://www.etymonline.com/word/several

Bjauck have you spoken to any farmers recently or read comments from them on social media or chat groups ?
I’m not sure many of them would share your view about this. Maybe not Ardern per se but many of them are feeling they are under constant attack from Labour and more so from the Greens.

The fishing industry would collapse if Green's fisheries and ocean policies were implemented. Simple. Completely nuts and impossible ideas to implement without shutting the industry down, which is probably what they want with farming and fishing like they did with oil & gas exploration.

Balance
26-09-2020, 06:55 AM
Revelations?
definition - a surprising and previously unknown fact that has been disclosed to others.
This is Winston!

Still no admission that you were wrong?

Happy to let you dig yourself in deeper before I respond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_France

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u3E7QblKSA

Read, view and learn.

Blue Skies
26-09-2020, 07:01 AM
Bjauck have you spoken to any farmers recently or read comments from them on social media or chat groups ?
I’m not sure many of them would share your view about this. Maybe not Ardern per se but many of them are feeling they are under constant attack from Labour and more so from the Greens.

The fishing industry would collapse if Green's fisheries and ocean policies were implemented. Simple. Completely nuts and impossible ideas to implement without shutting the industry down, which is probably what they want with farming and fishing like they did with oil & gas exploration.


There was an interesting interview with a farming economist on ZB last week, who said the PM has got this absolutely right & many of the farmers he personally knew agreed (and National a step backwards).
While many farmers esp the younger bright ones (many with university degrees) are enthusiastically embracing new ways for farming with lots of technology, sustainability, water care etc, there are of course a group of generally older farmers who are resistant to change, however the main point was that all the research is showing that around the developed world there is a massive shift happening in what urban consumers want. i.e. consumers are increasingly far more environmentally conscious & want to know the products they are purchasing meet environmental/ethically produced standards or they won't buy them.

He gave some NZ examples of agriculture based companies which had gone to great lengths & some expense to meet stringent environmental regulations to gain some sort of standards award, which meant not only were their products gaining easy access to, & growth in what would normally be difficult highly competitive markets to break into, but also consumers would happily pay a premium for them.

This he felt & as the PM said is the future of farming.
The 'old world' dirty farming practices way of doing things doesn't cut it anymore with consumers esp the younger environmentally aware ones.

So this is all about farming responding to changing consumer demand, & unfortunately there will always be a small vocal group who are resistant to change & slow to recognise we are moving into a 'new world', but increasingly NZ farmers esp the younger ones are responding positively, producing higher value products which meet the environmentally produced standards consumers are demanding & will pay a premium for.

Balance
26-09-2020, 07:25 AM
There was an interesting interview with a farming economist on ZB last week, who said the PM has got this absolutely right & many of the farmers he personally knew agreed (and National a step backwards).
While many farmers esp the younger bright ones (many with university degrees) are enthusiastically embracing new ways for farming with lots of technology, sustainability, water care etc, there are of course a group of generally older farmers who are resistant to change, however the main point was that all the research is showing that around the developed world there is a massive shift happening in what urban consumers want. i.e. consumers are increasingly far more environmentally conscious & want to know the products they are purchasing meet environmental/ethically produced standards or they won't buy them.

He gave some NZ examples of agriculture based companies which had gone to great lengths & some expense to meet stringent environmental regulations to gain some sort of standards award, which meant not only were their products gaining easy access to, & growth in what would normally be difficult highly competitive markets to break into, but also consumers would happily pay a premium for them.

This he felt & as the PM said is the future of farming.
The 'old world' dirty farming practices way of doing things doesn't cut it anymore with consumers esp the younger environmentally aware ones.

So this is all about farming responding to changing consumer demand, & unfortunately there will always be a small vocal group who are resistant to change & slow to recognise we are moving into a 'new world', but increasingly NZ farmers esp the younger ones are responding positively, producing higher value products which meet the environmentally produced standards consumers are demanding & will pay a premium for.

Who is the farming economist?

Always pays to disclose their political affiliation before praising or condemning their views.

artemis
26-09-2020, 07:36 AM
Who is the farming economist?

Always pays to disclose their political affiliation before praising or condemning their views.

Especially if s/he is one of the economists who predicted 7 of the last 2 recessions.

Blue Skies
26-09-2020, 08:02 AM
Who is the farming economist?

Always pays to disclose their political affiliation before praising or condemning their views.


He didn't seem to have any affiliation at all, he was almost a bit reticent to say Jacinda had this right & it wasn't political, but the points he raised about the huge shift in environmental/ethical consciousness driving consumer choices, resonated with my own observations of trends especially in the younger generation 18-44 demographic.
It was something I hadn't really thought about, but I've observed my adult children & their friends being quite definite about choosing products which have been produced using sustainable environmentally friendly methods, and it got me thinking about how many companies are pushing that in their marketing, so obviously this is being born out there marketing research.

It's just a view, I don't think it was political at all.

boysy
26-09-2020, 09:04 AM
Who is the farming economist?

Always pays to disclose their political affiliation before praising or condemning their views.

What a ridiculous comment Balance - i know you live in an echo chamber but really - i trust you only listen to those that share your own views further engraining the fact you think they and your own views are therefore right.

Farmers are pissed off because someone finally has the gumption to call them out for in many instances terrible farming practises to simply generate additional profit. When Crusher almost crying about farmers plight i just thought she has never shown so much concern for the poor urban dwellers - Must be worried farmers might vote act instead of national this election- i guess she sees the writing on the wall her job is to galvanise the JA haters and righties to limit the damage on election night to the mid 30s for national. She has limited appeal to swing/centre voters.

Looking forward to Mike Hoskings facials on election night again ....

elZorro
26-09-2020, 09:12 AM
What a ridiculous comment Balance - i know you live in an echo chamber but really - i trust you only listen to those that share your own views further engraining the fact you think they and your own views are therefore right.

Farmers are pissed off because someone finally has the gumption to call them out for in many instances terrible farming practises to simply generate additional profit. When Crusher almost crying about farmers plight i just thought she has never shown so much concern for the poor urban dwellers - Must be worried farmers might vote act instead of national this election- i guess she sees the writing on the wall her job is to galvanise the JA haters and righties to limit the damage on election night to the mid 30s for national. She has limited appeal to swing/centre voters.

Looking forward to Mike Hoskings facials on election night again ....

For most farmers, making a big profit each year isn't the main aim, it's to churn any would-be profits back into the farm as assets where it can accumulate for the big tax-free payout at the end of the process. They'll buy stuff that saves time and effort, but sometimes they'll walk away from anything that would increase annual taxable profits and bottom-line productivity.

For FP, here are the betting odds on the election..

https://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/new-zealand-politics/2020-nz-election-next-sworn-in-government-4933767

Balance
26-09-2020, 09:14 AM
What a ridiculous comment Balance - i know you live in an echo chamber but really - i trust you only listen to those that share your own views further engraining the fact you think they and your own views are therefore right.

Farmers are pissed off because someone finally has the gumption to call them out for in many instances terrible farming practises to simply generate additional profit. When Crusher almost crying about farmers plight i just thought she has never shown so much concern for the poor urban dwellers - Must be worried farmers might vote act instead of national this election- i guess she sees the writing on the wall her job is to galvanise the JA haters and righties to limit the damage on election night to the mid 30s for national. She has limited appeal to swing/centre voters.

Looking forward to Mike Hoskings facials on election night again ....

Do you actually know any real farmers?

fungus pudding
26-09-2020, 09:22 AM
For most farmers, making a big profit each year isn't the main aim, it's to churn any would-be profits back into the farm as assets where it can accumulate for the big tax-free payout at the end of the process. They'll buy stuff that saves time and effort, but sometimes they'll walk away from anything that would increase annual taxable profits and bottom-line productivity.

For FP, here are the betting odds on the election..

https://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/new-zealand-politics/2020-nz-election-next-sworn-in-government-4933767

Why should that interest me? I do not bet on such things, but have no doubt your lot will be returned along with the Kermits.

Panda-NZ-
26-09-2020, 11:25 AM
Your bloke dave will likely only be there due to the deal in Epsom rather than merit.

NZ's electoral college rort when dave recieves below 5% again as is likely.

Raz
26-09-2020, 11:56 AM
The greens think they are in with a grin...was present when they talked to a sector group the other week..they made it clear regardless of the negative influence of their policies to the group..it was simple, they do not care and expect to be in Government. Their policies are for the greater good.

Panda-NZ-
26-09-2020, 12:17 PM
Luckily then the greens won't have much influence or impact, 18 years spent in opposition, 3 in govt and in that three only tiny $200m budget allocations provided and the cannibas referendum passed since 2017.

They are an ethical party in this campaign though, and it's one which brings ideas to the table, which I respect unlike Act who relies on election acommodations from national and not on any sort of merit with their generous campaign finances too.

iceman
27-09-2020, 08:14 AM
BlueSkies what you describe is what a majority of farmers are doing. They are working hard to improve environmental practices but feel constantly undermined and undervalued for their efforts, as can be seen by some comments on here. We should be working with them, not always against them. After all, they know better than Ministers or public servants what needs to be done. Instead of cooperation, David Parker has been ramming through laws with his “I know best” patronising attitude and will not even talk or listen to the likes of Federated Farmers or Beef & Lamb NZ

jonu
27-09-2020, 08:42 AM
Luckily then the greens won't have much influence or impact, 18 years spent in opposition, 3 in govt and in that three only tiny $200m budget allocations provided and the cannibas referendum passed since 2017.

They are an ethical party in this campaign though, and it's one which brings ideas to the table, which I respect unlike Act who relies on election acommodations from national and not on any sort of merit with their generous campaign finances too.

The people of New Plymouth may beg to differ, with the destruction of the oil/gas industry, which financially made no sense, and environmentally made no sense, but gave Cindy an opportunity to make another one of her disastrous "Captain's Calls", to steal Greens thunder.

As for ethics....Green School in surprise, surprise....Taranaki!

Balance
27-09-2020, 10:15 AM
The people of New Plymouth may beg to differ, with the destruction of the oil/gas industry, which financially made no sense, and environmentally made no sense, but gave Cindy an opportunity to make another one of her disastrous "Captain's Calls", to steal Greens thunder.

As for ethics....Green School in surprise, surprise....Taranaki!

And don't forget the 'wealth tax' bottom line which has become yet another BS platitude from the hypocritical Greens.

Balance
27-09-2020, 01:33 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367932

James Shaw - just another grubby politician with no scruples.

This is the man who declined to be interviewed any further on the $12m to the Green School but is most eager to be interviewed on how the wealth tax is not a bottom line policy after all.

Fitzsimmons must be spinning in her grave - such is the total lack of principles displayed now by the Party she set up to champion green policies and ethical politics.

Panda-NZ-
27-09-2020, 03:39 PM
BlueSkies what you describe is what a majority of farmers are doing. They are working hard to improve environmental practices but feel constantly undermined and undervalued for their efforts, as can be seen by some comments on here. We should be working with them, not always against them. After all, they know better than Ministers or public servants what needs to be done. Instead of cooperation, David Parker has been ramming through laws with his “I know best” patronising attitude and will not even talk or listen to the likes of Federated Farmers or Beef & Lamb NZ

Exhibit A: Fonterra. Farmers even though they work hard don't necessarily have the competency to pick who is better to run a company or even country and it's better left to city and suburban folk. Once the pandemic is over we can make sure they get the migrants that are needed and do all the sales and distribution work.

Focusing on what can be done to increase the milk price* is a better focus than a few minor costs on water which encourage conservation and may lower costs long term through not despoiling the environment and ruining the NZ brand.

*(lower NZD, better products and marketing etc).

elZorro
27-09-2020, 07:08 PM
Why should that interest me? I do not bet on such things, but have no doubt your lot will be returned along with the Kermits.

Yep my mistake, it was the man from Napier I had the odd bet with.

New survey results: Labour could govern alone. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12368332

Been dropping pamphlets today, there might be quite a big swing in many electorates, so there could be a few National MP offices closing up soon.

jonu
27-09-2020, 08:42 PM
Exhibit A: Fonterra. Farmers even though they work hard don't necessarily have the competency to pick who is better to run a company or even country and it's better left to city and suburban folk. Once the pandemic is over we can make sure they get the migrants that are needed and do all the sales and distribution work.

Focusing on what can be done to increase the milk price* is a better focus than a few minor costs on water which encourage conservation and may lower costs long term through not despoiling the environment and ruining the NZ brand.

*(lower NZD, better products and marketing etc).

I wouldn't step outside of an urban area and expound such nonsense if I were you Panda....not if you like drawing breath. If your arrogance, bigotry and outright stupidity is widespread within Labour supporters we are in deeper **** than I thought possible.

moka
28-09-2020, 12:18 AM
I wouldn't step outside of an urban area and expound such nonsense if I were you Panda....not if you like drawing breath. If your arrogance, bigotry and outright stupidity is widespread within Labour supporters we are in deeper **** than I thought possible.More low quality discussion, name-calling and putting down someone you don’t agree with. Why is what Panda saying nonsense? Let’s discuss issues in a calm reasoned way rather than getting emotional.

Panda-NZ-
28-09-2020, 01:28 AM
I wouldn't step outside of an urban area and expound such nonsense if I were you Panda....not if you like drawing breath. If your arrogance, bigotry and outright stupidity is widespread within Labour supporters we are in deeper **** than I thought possible.

I live in a suburban community with strong links to agriculture actually.

Take a look at fonterra, sadly a real mess under the last team of people It's important to learn some lessons which is that farmers don't know it all strangely enough.

City and rural people help each other and division helps no one.

jonu
28-09-2020, 08:24 AM
More low quality discussion, name-calling and putting down someone you don’t agree with. Why is what Panda saying nonsense? Let’s discuss issues in a calm reasoned way rather than getting emotional.

I figured reading Panda's post would have told you all you need to know in terms of nonsense. Lumping farmers into one ignorant group (gee, sounds like more of the left fixation on identity politics) who apparently need all those clever suburban folk to run their lives for them....give me strength.

jonu
28-09-2020, 08:30 AM
I live in a suburban community with strong links to agriculture actually.

Take a look at fonterra, sadly a real mess under the last team of people It's important to learn some lessons which is that farmers don't know it all strangely enough.

City and rural people help each other and division helps no one.

So why are you telling farmers (not all of whom have anything to do with Fonterra by the way) that they need clever little suburban pandas to run their lives for them?

Further more, aspects of the abject nonsense of the water quality regulations, stand to make a massive proportion of currently farmed land unfarmable. Probably a deliberate tactic that Labour/Greens will back pedal on to appear reasonable. Clear and transparent....sure Cindy.

dobby41
28-09-2020, 08:39 AM
And don't forget the 'wealth tax' bottom line which has become yet another BS platitude from the hypocritical Greens.

The bottom line that they don't have.
They have said many times that it isn't a bottom line and that they don't have 'bottom lines' when it comes to negotiating.
One person says it once when she shouldn't and you stop listening - you have the 'evidence' you want.
Very shallow thinking.

fungus pudding
28-09-2020, 09:16 AM
The bottom line that they don't have.
They have said many times that it isn't a bottom line and that they don't have 'bottom lines' when it comes to negotiating.
One person says it once when she shouldn't and you stop listening - you have the 'evidence' you want.
Very shallow thinking.

The mere fact they have wealth tax on their wish list is frightening enough.

dobby41
28-09-2020, 11:13 AM
The mere fact they have wealth tax on their wish list is frightening enough.

Alternatives or amendments to our current taxation system would make an interesting thread in its own right.
A wealth Tax has some merit, as does a comprehensive CGT but, as always, the devil is in the actual detail.

fungus pudding
28-09-2020, 11:43 AM
Alternatives or amendments to our current taxation system would make an interesting thread in its own right.
A wealth Tax has some merit, as does a comprehensive CGT but, as always, the devil is in the actual detail.

Think about having to assess everyone's net wealth annually including the paintings on the wall, vehicles, ip, etc, then ask yourself how do you tax someone with plenty of assets and limited income; a common situation. The answers tell you why wealth taxes have never been sucessful, and never will be.

artemis
28-09-2020, 12:37 PM
The bottom line that they don't have.
They have said many times that it isn't a bottom line and that they don't have 'bottom lines' when it comes to negotiating.
One person says it once when she shouldn't and you stop listening - you have the 'evidence' you want.
Very shallow thinking.

That 'one person' is a Minister of the Crown. Not some random member of the public or even the party. There has to be a suspicion that a bottom line has been discussed in the Green caucus, beggars belief the Minister made it up completely out of the blue. Of course it may have been the Minister's wishful thinking. There's been a bit of that in her party of late.

artemis
28-09-2020, 12:42 PM
Alternatives or amendments to our current taxation system would make an interesting thread in its own right.
A wealth Tax has some merit, as does a comprehensive CGT but, as always, the devil is in the actual detail.

France discovered the downside of a wealth tax rather quickly. Capital is highly mobile these days.

Labour's CGT policy had a wide range of exemptions, some of which were added on the fly when people complained. What would you consider should be included or excluded in a 'comprehensive CGT'?

dobby41
28-09-2020, 01:35 PM
Think about having to assess everyone's net wealth annually including the paintings on the wall, vehicles, ip, etc, then ask yourself how do you tax someone with plenty of assets and limited income; a common situation. The answers tell you why wealth taxes have never been sucessful, and never will be.


That 'one person' is a Minister of the Crown. Not some random member of the public or even the party. There has to be a suspicion that a bottom line has been discussed in the Green caucus, beggars belief the Minister made it up completely out of the blue. Of course it may have been the Minister's wishful thinking. There's been a bit of that in her party of late.

She didn't make a Minister reply - she made a campaigning hopeful reply.
People will believe whom the wish and Shaw will be more than a little pissed at her for muddying this up.

dobby41
28-09-2020, 03:56 PM
Happy to let you dig yourself in deeper before I respond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_France

I are so like the politicians you despise.
Always looking for the wiggle room.
You said

Countries like France & even Turkey ban the hijab - guess Cindy thinks she knows better than them?

At the end of the article on France that you show we get

In 2010, a public debate arose and France passed a law that bans the wearing of full-face covering, including but not limited to burqas and niqābs, in public. The law was constitutionally cleared so that it came into force in April 2011. That debate and ban are separate from the above-discussed debate on the hijab in public schools, in that the new law does not pertain to Islamic scarves but rather to the much rarer full-face versions, as well as other full-face coverings (such as masks and balaclavas), and in that the new law applies to all citizens in public spaces regardless of religion or claimed tradition (and regardless of gender).
So, in a narrow view you are right - France banned the Hijab in France in Public Schools.
Not in general public.
Maybe you meant to talk about 'only in public schools' and just implied that it was in all France.
I doubt it but would expect you to try to wriggle out of being straight-up!

Zaphod
28-09-2020, 04:23 PM
The energy spent formulating a policy on stickers applied to apples, plastic cutlery and single-use coffee cups, would have been better spent on addressing the long-standing issue on recycling large electronic equipment. Fly tipping has become an issue with large electronics as people seek to avoid the recycling fees. Building the fee into the cost at purchase would allow these items to be dropped off at recycling depots 'free of charge', which psychologically would have a significant impact.

No matter, if I want another TV or PC (albeit one I need to repair), I can continue to shop locally in the bushes down the road.

Balance
30-09-2020, 06:11 AM
She didn't make a Minister reply - she made a campaigning hopeful reply.
People will believe whom the wish and Shaw will be more than a little pissed at her for muddying this up.

No, she did not - she relayed a bottom line Green election Policy.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12366702

You can be very sure that if Labour had embrace the idea that James ‘Green School’ Shaw would have come out swinging that the wealth tax is a bottom line.

The kite flying crashed and the Greens retreated, like with the Green School & lately, with Tiwai.

Balance
30-09-2020, 06:49 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369025

Feeling the pressure, Cindy lets her mask slip - coming in low and dirty, ahead of the Leaders’ Debate tonight.

Don’t you love it when Cindy gets nasty & talks dirty? 😜

She is quite the tigress when she wants to be! Meow! 😺

fungus pudding
30-09-2020, 08:26 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369025

Feeling the pressure, Cindy lets her mask slip - coming in low and dirty, ahead of the Leaders’ Debate tonight.

Don’t you love it when Cindy gets nasty & talks dirty? ��

She is quite the tigress when she wants to be! Meow! ��


Jacinda's alright. I quite like her. Completely useless, but charismatic.

dobby41
30-09-2020, 09:19 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369025

Feeling the pressure, Cindy lets her mask slip - coming in low and dirty, ahead of the Leaders’ Debate tonight.

Don’t you love it when Cindy gets nasty & talks dirty? ��

She is quite the tigress when she wants to be! Meow! ��

Good for her. :t_up:
All the crocodile tears from Judith - pot calling the kettle black.
Meanwhile there is a total lack of discussion on actual policy.

westerly
30-09-2020, 10:20 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369025

Feeling the pressure, Cindy lets her mask slip - coming in low and dirty, ahead of the Leaders’ Debate tonight.

Don’t you love it when Cindy gets nasty & talks dirty? 😜

She is quite the tigress when she wants to be! Meow! 😺

“Then Prime Minister John Key initiated an inquiry, which found that while Collins had provided information about Feeley to WhaleOil blogger Cameron Slater, "there was nothing improper about the provision of this information".
From the same article. I think Judith protest too much. Dealing with Whaleoil?

westerly

Balance
30-09-2020, 10:43 AM
“Then Prime Minister John Key initiated an inquiry, which found that while Collins had provided information about Feeley to WhaleOil blogger Cameron Slater, "there was nothing improper about the provision of this information".
From the same article. I think Judith protest too much. Dealing with Whaleoil?

westerly

What’s wrong with Whaleoil?

fungus pudding
30-09-2020, 11:09 AM
What’s wrong with Whaleoil?

It can go rancid.

tim23
30-09-2020, 07:48 PM
What’s wrong with Whaleoil?

Where would one start - read Dirty Politics old fella?

Balance
30-09-2020, 09:35 PM
Where would one start - read Dirty Politics old fella?

Front up or shut up, grasshopper. When you can put $10k together, you can come out of your mummy’s bosom & join the men’s league.

Balance
30-09-2020, 09:36 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369285

All that make up and Cindy still came out second best.

All style and no substance.

tim23
01-10-2020, 04:53 PM
Front up or shut up, grasshopper. When you can put $10k together, you can come out of your mummy’s bosom & join the men’s league.

I see you are good at dishing out vicious insults but when we respond with a mild rebuke you get all surly, give it up, you're embarrassing yourself.

iceman
01-10-2020, 07:40 PM
Lots of comments here about the $4B mistake from Goldsmith but no comment about the $140B mistake from Robinson. Just like most of the media, totally unbiased ������

jonu
01-10-2020, 08:03 PM
Lots of comments here about the $4B mistake from Goldsmith but no comment about the $140B mistake from Robinson. Just like most of the media, totally unbiased ������

I was disappointed in Collins about a Plan B last night. It should have been a marked difference from the idiotic lack of a plan we have now. Who in their right minds borrows a multigenerational sum of money without surety of its effectiveness and a surefire way out of a never ending loop of lockdowns? Madness.

Blue Skies
01-10-2020, 08:20 PM
Lots of comments here about the $4B mistake from Goldsmith but no comment about the $140B mistake from Robinson. Just like most of the media, totally unbiased ������


Ahhh.....ones an obvious typo, and ones a $4 Billion miscalculation using the wrong set of figures. Satisfied now ?

Raz
02-10-2020, 02:14 AM
I was disappointed in Collins about a Plan B last night. It should have been a marked difference from the idiotic lack of a plan we have now. Who in their right minds borrows a multigenerational sum of money without surety of its effectiveness and a surefire way out of a never ending loop of lockdowns? Madness.

One does this when the goal is to ensuring no political fall out of having a overwhelmed health system and resulting human consequence. The debt is never repaid in a election cycle. So it meets political and health goals.

Judith lost me with her pathetic retro. approach on the wage subsidy...has she forgotten where her support is ?

Balance
02-10-2020, 07:37 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/427403/house-prices-and-home-ownership-has-labour-delivered-on-its-promises

So much for Cindy's promise to make homes affordable :

"So has their foreign buyers ban, the brightline extension and other measures worked for affordability?

No, according to economist Shamubeel Eaqub.

"We haven't achieved more affordable housing.

"KiwiBuild failed, the ban on foreign buyers and the brightline test were put in place but they weren't very effective."

All style and no substance - that's Cindy. Maybe wearing the hijab when she next talks about home affordability may help?

Balance
02-10-2020, 07:46 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/427403/house-prices-and-home-ownership-has-labour-delivered-on-its-promises

So much for Cindy's promise to make homes affordable :

"So has their foreign buyers ban, the brightline extension and other measures worked for affordability?

No, according to economist Shamubeel Eaqub.

"We haven't achieved more affordable housing.

"KiwiBuild failed, the ban on foreign buyers and the brightline test were put in place but they weren't very effective."

All style and no substance - that's Cindy. Maybe wearing the hijab when she next talks about home affordability may help?

But wait, there's more.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369372

Housing Crisis has become Housing Chaos under Cindy.

"When Labour was wanting to be elected and they called it a crisis, we called it a crisis, but it has gone beyond the crisis."

artemis
02-10-2020, 08:43 AM
But wait, there's more.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369372

Housing Crisis has become Housing Chaos under Cindy.

"When Labour was wanting to be elected and they called it a crisis, we called it a crisis, but it has gone beyond the crisis."

A 19 year old solo parent with a 2 year old, on benefit. can't find a rental. More likely can't find one that will make her an offer because rental shortage, increased costs / compliance / risk. Quite possible there is some correlation there because there are thousands of rentals advertised.

How many of those factors have been caused by this government?

Raz
02-10-2020, 10:08 AM
Well that is was Arden mentioned in debate comments the other night..so what have you done about it then. Lets look at CDHB, now today bailed out after their executive have basically left being placed in an untenable position..suspect the MOH, Treasury and Govt. wanted to get ride of experienced people that had community support. Love to know why Auckland per head of population is better funding than Christchurch....

Blue Skies
02-10-2020, 12:21 PM
Good to see Labour now also promising to repeal the RMA & start again. Cost of building in this country is out of control.
Recently heard of someone being given a quote of $90,000 to replace the roof on their house. How could it possibly cost that much to replace a roof for goodness sake.

macduffy
02-10-2020, 12:34 PM
Another promise? Surely, the Coalition govt had some sort of commission of inquiry/ investigative committee thingy to recommend on this subject. Wasn't three years long enough to get some action on this matter?

jonu
02-10-2020, 12:39 PM
Good to see Labour now also promising to repeal the RMA & start again. Cost of building in this country is out of control.
Recently heard of someone being given a quote of $90,000 to replace the roof on their house. How could it possibly cost that much to replace a roof for goodness sake.

Could be 20+k of scaffolding for a start. That's H&S regulations not RMA. Generally nothing to do with the RMA in replacing a roof unless you're actually redesigning the house as you do it.

Balance
02-10-2020, 12:39 PM
Good to see Labour now also promising to repeal the RMA & start again. Cost of building in this country is out of control.
Recently heard of someone being given a quote of $90,000 to replace the roof on their house. How could it possibly cost that much to replace a roof for goodness sake.

Try this - Developer required to divert a ROW driveway to a side road (to subdivide one property into 3) because the Auckland Council decided that they did not want ‘more’ traffic onto busy road. Fair enough.

Pine tree stood in the way of the diversion so Council Parks & Recreation objected as tree is ‘feature’ of area!

Parks & Recreation would not talk directly with Resource Dept except via Planning process.

So reports have to be paid for by developer - traffic management report and arborist report before consent was given.

Cost?

3 months delay and $120,000.

macduffy
02-10-2020, 12:44 PM
Well that is was Arden mentioned in debate comments the other night..so what have you done about it then. Lets look at CDHB, now today bailed out after their executive have basically left being placed in an untenable position..suspect the MOH, Treasury and Govt. wanted to get ride of experienced people that had community support. Love to know why Auckland per head of population is better funding than Christchurch....

It's not just the Canterbury DHB either, Raz. Whoever came up with the idea of loading the DHB's with debt which they have to service should admit the folly of the idea, write off all DHB's debt and fund future operations adequately.

jonu
02-10-2020, 12:48 PM
Subdivision and non compliant activities are extraordinarily expensive, and with generally no extra benefit obtained from all the hoop jumping.

A friend as part of a 1 section subdivision had the misfortune to be forming an entrance onto a piece of SH12 here in Northland. 34k later it is done. I can see at best 5k value in the work done. Approx 5k in traffic management costs alone for a quiet piece of road.

All thanks to Geoff Palmer who hundreds of consultants and planners should be required to bow down every Monday morning in gratitude for the monumental cockup he inflicted upon us all and ensured billions of dollars spent on non-productive Environment Court and Council Hearings. All hail Sir Geoff!

Blue Skies
02-10-2020, 12:59 PM
Could be 20+k of scaffolding for a start. That's H&S regulations not RMA. Generally nothing to do with the RMA in replacing a roof unless you're actually redesigning the house as you do it.


Yes but I think if you make any slight change to the roof line OR change the type of roofing it involves the RMA. The H&S regulations are out of control too.

Blue Skies
02-10-2020, 01:03 PM
Try this - Developer required to divert a ROW driveway to a side road (to subdivide one property into 3) because the Auckland Council decided that they did not want ‘more’ traffic onto busy road. Fair enough.

Pine tree stood in the way of the diversion so Council Parks & Recreation objected as tree is ‘feature’ of area!

Parks & Recreation would not talk directly with Resource Dept except via Planning process.

So reports have to be paid for by developer - traffic management report and arborist report before consent was given.

Cost?

3 months delay and $120,000.


Outrageous, they make it so difficult to get anything done.

artemis
02-10-2020, 01:59 PM
Could be 20+k of scaffolding for a start. That's H&S regulations not RMA. Generally nothing to do with the RMA in replacing a roof unless you're actually redesigning the house as you do it.

Were the scaff regs really H&S though? Recommend a glance at Bryce Wilkinson's scaff paper A Matter of Balance. A few years old but still good. Easy to find on NZ Initiatives site.

artemis
02-10-2020, 02:01 PM
It's not just the Canterbury DHB either, Raz. Whoever came up with the idea of loading the DHB's with debt which they have to service should admit the folly of the idea, write off all DHB's debt and fund future operations adequately.

Wasn't there a review that put the acid on management incompetence?

dobby41
02-10-2020, 03:13 PM
Good to see Labour now also promising to repeal the RMA & start again. Cost of building in this country is out of control.
Recently heard of someone being given a quote of $90,000 to replace the roof on their house. How could it possibly cost that much to replace a roof for goodness sake.

What would the RMA have to do with a roof replacement?
Conflating issues I think.

Blue Skies
02-10-2020, 04:03 PM
What would the RMA have to do with a roof replacement?
Conflating issues I think.


Not intentionally.
As I understand it, if you alter the roof line in any way or change to a different type of roofing material, it involves going through the RMA process.
Slightly altering the width of a dormer window with it just slightly infringing on height to boundary ratio, cost some friends over $100,000 going through the whole long RMA process, and in the end it was passed anyway, so what's the point apart from keeping a whole army of paper pushing compliance people something to do between 9a and 5p. (said slightly tongue in cheek)

tim23
02-10-2020, 07:06 PM
Could be 20+k of scaffolding for a start. That's H&S regulations not RMA. Generally nothing to do with the RMA in replacing a roof unless you're actually redesigning the house as you do it.

You are probably right - but maybe a bit high on the 20K but the catalyst for all this health and safety was Pike River and is was National that wound down the inspectorate so badly and it was National that crushed the unions and yet over looked is the fact that unions were big on health and safety - so you join the dots...

tim23
02-10-2020, 07:09 PM
Subdivision and non compliant activities are extraordinarily expensive, and with generally no extra benefit obtained from all the hoop jumping.

A friend as part of a 1 section subdivision had the misfortune to be forming an entrance onto a piece of SH12 here in Northland. 34k later it is done. I can see at best 5k value in the work done. Approx 5k in traffic management costs alone for a quiet piece of road.

All thanks to Geoff Palmer who hundreds of consultants and planners should be required to bow down every Monday morning in gratitude for the monumental cockup he inflicted upon us all and ensured billions of dollars spent on non-productive Environment Court and Council Hearings. All hail Sir Geoff!

I can well believe that - at least you have a friend probably one more friend than Balance (unless we count Hosking)

Zaphod
03-10-2020, 09:44 AM
Some district plans do note roof form, materials and even colour. Attempting to vary these can result in a council imposed requirement to obtain a resource consent. Roof colour has been an objection raised by councils in the Wellington region of late.

iceman
03-10-2020, 04:16 PM
Ahhh.....ones an obvious typo, and ones a $4 Billion miscalculation using the wrong set of figures. Satisfied now ?

A typo ? It was a graph showing Government net debt forecast by 2034. The graph showed it standing at $ 49 B but the actual is $ 274 B. And the Finance Minister and all his advisers did not notice it. Yeah right !

dobby41
05-10-2020, 08:45 AM
Not intentionally.
As I understand it, if you alter the roof line in any way or change to a different type of roofing material, it involves going through the RMA process.
Slightly altering the width of a dormer window with it just slightly infringing on height to boundary ratio, cost some friends over $100,000 going through the whole long RMA process, and in the end it was passed anyway, so what's the point apart from keeping a whole army of paper pushing compliance people something to do between 9a and 5p. (said slightly tongue in cheek)

It would go through the consent process not the RMA if you changed the roofline.
If you changed the materials it would depend on the change - swap Iron for Concrete tiles - consent and grief.

jonu
05-10-2020, 09:06 AM
You are probably right - but maybe a bit high on the 20K but the catalyst for all this health and safety was Pike River and is was National that wound down the inspectorate so badly and it was National that crushed the unions and yet over looked is the fact that unions were big on health and safety - so you join the dots...

I would but the the dots don't link up. If what the Nats did was so terrible, why didn't Aunty Helen fix it during her 9 years?

We have tended to follow the UK on this H&S and RMA stuff as far as I can make out.

Regardless, it doesn't diminish the fact that idiot savant Geof Palmer lumbered us with the RMA in all it's consulting, mitigating glory. Palmer is unrivalled in the intelligent fool category.

Andrew Little probably surpasses him in the fool category, but he's just a plain old idiot. I shudder to think what legacy Little will leave us with if he gets a second term as Justice Minister. He might even get lumbered with Cindy's Ihumatao cockup to sort out as well.

Blue Skies
05-10-2020, 09:09 AM
It would go through the consent process not the RMA if you changed the roofline.
If you changed the materials it would depend on the change - swap Iron for Concrete tiles - consent and grief.


Isn't the Resource Consent process required by the RMA, i.e. dictated by it.
Could have worded it more specifically & precisely but expressed in general terms since we were talking about the RMA & it's effects.

Zaphod
05-10-2020, 09:57 AM
Given they are both consents, for clarity, IMO it's worth describing them as follows:
* Resource consent
* Building consent

dobby41
05-10-2020, 11:21 AM
Isn't the Resource Consent process required by the RMA, i.e. dictated by it.
Could have worded it more specifically & precisely but expressed in general terms since we were talking about the RMA & it's effects.

Building consent I'm referring to.
To change the roof line you'd probably need a building consent to check that the recession plane isn't breached.

When people talk about RMA issues and getting rid of the rules I do hope that they aren't advocating letting it become open slather - anything goes.

dobby41
05-10-2020, 11:24 AM
Regardless, it doesn't diminish the fact that idiot savant Geof Palmer lumbered us with the RMA in all it's consulting, mitigating glory. Palmer is unrivalled in the intelligent fool category.


Most learned articles I have read suggest that the RMA, in its' current form, is passed its' use-by date rather than that it was never any good.
It worked in its' time but that time has moved on.

jonu
05-10-2020, 11:39 AM
Most learned articles I have read suggest that the RMA, in its' current form, is passed its' use-by date rather than that it was never any good.
It worked in its' time but that time has moved on.

I've had the misfortune to have had significant interaction with the RMA and I can assure you it was a nightmare from the beginning, and a boon for the legal, consulting and grievance industries. It has been an unproductive, expensive handbrake on this country from the outset, while at the same time doing little to achieve its reason for existence.

To give just one example. Water storage.

dobby41
05-10-2020, 11:44 AM
I've had the misfortune to have had significant interaction with the RMA and I can assure you it was a nightmare from the beginning, and a boon for the legal, consulting and grievance industries. It has been an unproductive, expensive handbrake on this country from the outset, while at the same time doing little to achieve its reason for existence.

To give just one example. Water storage.

Interesting, then, that it is still being talked about after nearly 30 years.

jonu
05-10-2020, 11:54 AM
Interesting, then, that it is still being talked about after nearly 30 years.

How often does government (of any hue) make itself smaller? I could have added local and central government to the beneficiary list of the RMA.

westerly
05-10-2020, 01:12 PM
I would but the the dots don't link up. If what the Nats did was so terrible, why didn't Aunty Helen fix it during her 9 years?

We have tended to follow the UK on this H&S and RMA stuff as far as I can make out.

Regardless, it doesn't diminish the fact that idiot savant Geof Palmer lumbered us with the RMA in all it's consulting, mitigating glory. Palmer is unrivalled in the intelligent fool category.

Andrew Little probably surpasses him in the fool category, but he's just a plain old idiot. I shudder to think what legacy Little will leave us with if he gets a second term as Justice Minister. He might even get lumbered with Cindy's Ihumatao cockup to sort out as well.

The RMA process was started by Palmer but Labour were defeated and Nationals Simon Upton introduced and passed the RMA act in 1991.
You should apologise to Palmer. Shudder all you like but you seem more the idiot to me.

westerly

jonu
05-10-2020, 01:35 PM
The RMA process was started by Palmer but Labour were defeated and Nationals Simon Upton introduced and passed the RMA act in 1991.
You should apologise to Palmer. Shudder all you like but you seem more the idiot to me.

westerly

Why apologise to Palmer? It's not my fault he and Upton are in the same boat.

Here the old fool tries to distance himself from his monumental cockup.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/07/resource-management-act-s-creator-sir-geoffrey-palmer-labels-it-an-incoherent-mess.html

It was a cockup from the get go Geoff!

iceman
05-10-2020, 02:26 PM
Andrew Little probably surpasses him in the fool category, but he's just a plain old idiot. I shudder to think what legacy Little will leave us with if he gets a second term as Justice Minister. He might even get lumbered with Cindy's Ihumatao cockup to sort out as well.

Audrey Young in the Herald today suggests if Labour leads next Government Little will get Foreign Affairs, Justice and Treaty Negotiations 1

fungus pudding
05-10-2020, 02:40 PM
Audrey Young in the Herald today suggests if Labour leads next Government Little will get Foreign Affairs, Justice and Treaty Negotiations 1

Surely she won't overlook Twyford and /or Davis for these portfolios?

jonu
05-10-2020, 02:52 PM
Surely she won't overlook Twyford and /or Davis for these portfolios?

Davis would obviously be Deputy PM. Goes without saying due to his standout performance thus far.All I can say is that Cindy will be hoping her travel is still restricted due to Covid. Gotta have that diversity. Twyford.....hell I can't even think of anything funny or sarcastic about Twyford. It just beggars belief he is anywhere near the Cabinet table....let alone promoted to 4 on Cindy's stellar performers list.

Dayum it's a scary thought as to what witches brew of a concoction we could be lumbered with.

fungus pudding
05-10-2020, 03:28 PM
Davis would obviously be Deputy PM. Goes without saying due to his standout performance thus far.All I can say is that Cindy will be hoping her travel is still restricted due to Covid. Gotta have that diversity. Twyford.....hell I can't even think of anything funny or sarcastic about Twyford. It just beggars belief he is anywhere near the Cabinet table....let alone promoted to 4 on Cindy's stellar performers list.

Dayum it's a scary thought as to what witches brew of a concoction we could be lumbered with.

Well there's always Willy Jackson. After all, Chris Hipkins won't be able to handle all the portfolios.

Zaphod
05-10-2020, 04:02 PM
The RMA process was started by Palmer but Labour were defeated and Nationals Simon Upton introduced and passed the RMA act in 1991.
You should apologise to Palmer. Shudder all you like but you seem more the idiot to me.

westerly

Palmer was the architect of the RMA, and completed the vast majority of the initial legislation later introduced by Simon Upton who did not make any significant changes. Palmer has routinely spoken out against the RMA , labelling it an 'incoherent mess' as it has becomes patched with numerous amendments and is far more bureaucratic than originally envisaged.

We have had the RMA used as a tool to extract cash from us on a small development project. All neighbours except one (who was not directly near the building) approved of the design, but one individual stated he wanted $35K in cash to compensate him for loss of value to his property, without any concreate evidence of how it would cause a loss of that exact size. The potential cost of hearings, additional expert evidence and other elements amounted to just slightly higher than that, so it was simply cheaper to pay him the money. Later we learned that he has a history of similar requests at other properties he has lived at. Other developers I have spoken with have similar tales.

ynot
05-10-2020, 04:10 PM
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2020/10/jacinda-ardern-puppet-plays-mary-poppins-in-bbc-comedy-spitting-image.amp.html

Cindy, classic piss take on latest "spitting image" "super kiwi socialistic" they have her nailed !

tim23
05-10-2020, 06:28 PM
I would but the the dots don't link up. If what the Nats did was so terrible, why didn't Aunty Helen fix it during her 9 years?

We have tended to follow the UK on this H&S and RMA stuff as far as I can make out.

Regardless, it doesn't diminish the fact that idiot savant Geof Palmer lumbered us with the RMA in all it's consulting, mitigating glory. Palmer is unrivalled in the intelligent fool category.

Andrew Little probably surpasses him in the fool category, but he's just a plain old idiot. I shudder to think what legacy Little will leave us with if he gets a second term as Justice Minister. He might even get lumbered with Cindy's Ihumatao cockup to sort out as well.

To answer that you would have to tell me who Aunty Helen is?

jonu
05-10-2020, 07:13 PM
To answer that you would have to tell me who Aunty Helen is?

The owner of the tit upon which I suspect your ideology was suckled.

tim23
05-10-2020, 08:00 PM
The owner of the tit upon which I suspect your ideology was suckled.

Hardly worth commenting on but I will - you embarrass yourself with silly comments like that - grow up. You chose not to reply sensibly to my comment regarding the Employment Contracts Act and the lack of resources for the mining inspectorate, do you care to?

iceman
05-10-2020, 10:03 PM
tim23 I think you need to consider the PRC disaster and the law for Mining Inspectorate a bit more. It is correct that the changes started under Jim Bolger's National Government in 1993. But prior to the explosion, Helen Clark had been PM for 9 years and John Key for about 3 years. No serious concerns were raised about this by either Government and no law changes were made to rectify it. BUT, certain people like Andrew Little defended it and said it was safe and praised the company, not long before the explosion. His statements now that he is a Minister are sinister and duplicitous https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2014/12/how-andrew-little-failed-pike-river.html

So I repeat my earlier comments that caused many to take umbrage with, including Black Peter somehow bringing nuclear bombs and President Trump into it, that Little is a dangerous man as a Minister of the Crown.

tim23
06-10-2020, 05:33 PM
tim23 I think you need to consider the PRC disaster and the law for Mining Inspectorate a bit more. It is correct that the changes started under Jim Bolger's National Government in 1993. But prior to the explosion, Helen Clark had been PM for 9 years and John Key for about 3 years. No serious concerns were raised about this by either Government and no law changes were made to rectify it. BUT, certain people like Andrew Little defended it and said it was safe and praised the company, not long before the explosion. His statements now that he is a Minister are sinister and duplicitous https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2014/12/how-andrew-little-failed-pike-river.html

So I repeat my earlier comments that caused many to take umbrage with, including Black Peter somehow bringing nuclear bombs and President Trump into it, that Little is a dangerous man as a Minister of the Crown.

At the time of the explosion the inspectorate had been decimated so too few inspectors to cover too many sites, interesting that you too ignore my observation that unions were big on health and safety.

RupertBear
06-10-2020, 09:27 PM
WOW Jacinda smashed The Press debate out of the park tonight! Impressive performance ;)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300125774/election-2020-jacinda-ardern-seemed-to-finally-crack-it-in-raucous-the-press-leaders-debate

fungus pudding
06-10-2020, 10:02 PM
WOW Jacinda smashed The Press debate out of the park tonight! Impressive performance ;)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300125774/election-2020-jacinda-ardern-seemed-to-finally-crack-it-in-raucous-the-press-leaders-debate

She sure did. Collins was awful.

dobby41
07-10-2020, 07:12 AM
She sure did. Collins was awful.

She seems to have taken a page out of Trumps bully book.
She seemed angry and ranting.
Very much Crusher mode.

iceman
07-10-2020, 07:22 AM
She sure did. Collins was awful.

Agree with this

RupertBear
07-10-2020, 03:38 PM
Jacinda in Dunedin today and MASSIVE crowds came out to see her! I have never seen anything like it!

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/decision-2020/students-show-love-pm-dunedin

Balance
07-10-2020, 04:26 PM
Jacinda in Dunedin today and MASSIVE crowds came out to see her! I have never seen anything like it!

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/decision-2020/students-show-love-pm-dunedin

Don't make the mistake of equating popularity with capability.

Hiltler had whole stadiums filled with admirers - fat lot of good it did for the German people.

Idi Amin & Mugabe were also hugely popular in their time and what did their admirers got in return in the end.

dobby41
07-10-2020, 04:42 PM
Don't make the mistake of equating popularity with capability.

Too true.

Judith spent lots on buying FaceBook 'likes'.
Now, in Ponsonby Road, they rake supporters in to create a show.
Seems to be worried about not having enough admirers.
The poor wee thing.

Balance
07-10-2020, 05:07 PM
Too true.

Judith spent lots on buying FaceBook 'likes'.
Now, in Ponsonby Road, they rake supporters in to create a show.
Seems to be worried about not having enough admirers.
The poor wee thing.

And how long has she been leader of Opposition?

Zaphod
07-10-2020, 05:51 PM
Judith spent lots on buying FaceBook 'likes'.


You should supply your evidence to Facebook as this is a clear violation of their terms & conditions.

RupertBear
07-10-2020, 06:38 PM
Don't make the mistake of equating popularity with capability.

Hiltler had whole stadiums filled with admirers - fat lot of good it did for the German people.

Idi Amin & Mugabe were also hugely popular in their time and what did their admirers got in return in the end.

You are soooo tediously predictable and offensive with your pathetic Hitler comparisons Balance. Broken record much! Yawn :t_down: