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minimoke
27-03-2018, 01:53 PM
So many storms in a teacup at the moment I think many can’t be bothered in trying to keep up

Where’s Tamaki C these days
I suspect hes trying to get a supply of liquor licence backdated.

minimoke
27-03-2018, 02:06 PM
I'm struggling to believe the PM was not aware before the other day. Andrew Kirton was at the camp. MP Tamait Coffey was there, MP Liz Craig was there. MP Angie Warrant Clark was there the day the guy got booted out. Other Labour MP's had been at the camp including Peeni Henara and Nathaniel Blomfield. Andrew Kirton was told on 13 February and Labour PArty President Nigel Howart on 14 Feb (along with the VP Beth Houston). And not one of these people apparently thought the PM would want to know about 4 sexual assaults occurring at an event she attended. I'm not that stupid!
Looks like I am not the only one struggling to believe Jacinda wasn't told. Helen Clarke reckons ""Jacinda was let down. She should have been told immediately, actually, then events would have taken a different course. "And I cannot understand why she wasn't told. Unbelievable."

Totally unbelievable I reckon. Improbable as well. Which leads to the only rational conclusions: she was told and she has lied about it.

minimoke
27-03-2018, 02:24 PM
Has Clare Curran stuffed up now ....apparently some are saying Jacinda should have ditched her

Not up with play ..what did Clare doShe has a diared meeting with RNZ Head of News Carol Hirschfiled. WHich means its a Ministerial meeting and subject to opposition questioning. Except Hirschfeld was busy telling everyone it was a chance encounter where they just bumped into each other. and had a bit of a natter over a Latte. Curran did nothing to correct the record. Hirschfield fell on her sword today.

winner69
27-03-2018, 02:46 PM
She stood for Labour in a very safe seat, and landed way way way out of her depth - that's what she did do.

That explains why she said she's naive ....and didn't even know 'rules' existed

blackcap
27-03-2018, 02:49 PM
That explains why she said she's naive ....and didn't even know 'rules' existed

and begs the question as to why a naive MP is offered a ministerial position. Shows terrible judgement on Jacinda's part.

winner69
27-03-2018, 02:49 PM
She has a diared meeting with RNZ Head of News Carol Hirschfiled. WHich means its a Ministerial meeting and subject to opposition questioning. Except Hirschfeld was busy telling everyone it was a chance encounter where they just bumped into each other. and had a bit of a natter over a Latte. Curran did nothing to correct the record. Hirschfield fell on her sword today.

But Curran apparently told Parliament two different stories ....that's what I heard

BlackPeter
27-03-2018, 02:57 PM
But Curran apparently told Parliament two different stories ....that's what I heard

Well, we can't hold that against her - I guess they work together with populists - don't they?

Remember - alternative facts are o.k. ;);

fungus pudding
27-03-2018, 04:02 PM
Looks like I am not the only one struggling to believe Jacinda wasn't told. Helen Clarke reckons ""Jacinda was let down. She should have been told immediately, actually, then events would have taken a different course. "And I cannot understand why she wasn't told. Unbelievable."

Totally unbelievable I reckon. Improbable as well. Which leads to the only rational conclusions: she was told and she has lied about it.

The interesting detail which has not yet become public, is the name of the offender.

fungus pudding
27-03-2018, 04:10 PM
and begs the question as to why a naive MP is offered a ministerial position. Shows terrible judgement on Jacinda's part.

That was always going to be Labour's biggest problem - lack of talent. Hence we have Lees Gallloway, Twyford, Hipkins, Cullan all holding positions out of line with their abilities.

westerly
27-03-2018, 04:44 PM
So many storms in a teacup at the moment I think many canít be bothered in trying to keep up

Whereís Tamaki C these days

Stirrer :) He is in the USA with an ACPYL delegation . Whatever that is?

westerly

winner69
27-03-2018, 04:53 PM
Stirrer :) He is in the USA with an ACPYL delegation . Whatever that is?

westerly

Surely not the American Council of Young Political Leaders

Not just Tamati but a few others

Theyll come back much wiser I reckon

fungus pudding
27-03-2018, 06:02 PM
That was always going to be Labour's biggest problem - lack of talent. Hence we have Lees Gallloway, Twyford, Hipkins, Cullan all holding positions out of line with their abilities.

As well Jacinda has to contend with the wild NZ party plus a couple of absolute dreamers in the Kermit club. I doubt if there's a single member in the house (apart from Winston Peters) who would want her job, probably including herself.

westerly
27-03-2018, 07:24 PM
Amazing how fast the rot shows through: NZ First MP Jenny Marcroft threatens that the government will withhold funds from electorates oppositon MP's might lobby for ... and hey - National better not criticize NZ First ministers or else ...

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/national-mp-accuses-nz-first-threatening-withhold-funding-but-winston-peters-says-misunderstanding



Last time I checked NZ was still a democracy, but it appears NZF is moving faster than their big idol Trump to change this.

Obviously - Winston says afterwards "just a misunderstanding" (without clarifying how you can misunderstand a clear threat) ... but clearly Winston and Co will hope the threat will stick. That's the way they want to stay in power - by bullying not just companies (AIR / Shane Jones) but as well by threatening their electorates. Amazing how deep Winston and Co did already sink - or have they always been in the gutter?

You wern't so upset over this though.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/01/04/27104/people-in-glass-houses-shouldnt-speak-out-of-turn#

westerly

elZorro
27-03-2018, 09:19 PM
That was always going to be Labour's biggest problem - lack of talent. Hence we have Lees Gallloway, Twyford, Hipkins, Cullan all holding positions out of line with their abilities.

Er, isn't she from down your way - you've spelt the name wrong FP. She has at least two university degrees, can't be clueless. She's also been an MP for nine years.

JBmurc
27-03-2018, 09:43 PM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/john-armstrong-jacinda-ardern-has-appeared-flustered-even-rattled-during-first-crises-hit-her-government

fungus pudding
27-03-2018, 10:26 PM
Er, isn't she from down your way - you've spelt the name wrong FP. She has at least two university degrees, can't be clueless. She's also been an MP for nine years.

Oh dear. So I have.Yes, she's been an MP for a while. Prior to her the seat was held by David Benson Pope who was also hopeless.

winner69
28-03-2018, 02:06 AM
Er, isn't she from down your way - you've spelt the name wrong FP. She has at least two university degrees, can't be clueless. She's also been an MP for nine years.

All that knowledge and experience and she says ĎI didnít know there were rules around thatí and admits to being Ďniaveí

Címon ez ...whatís she and Jacinda hiding

minimoke
28-03-2018, 06:16 AM
All that knowledge and experience and she says ‘I didn’t know there were rules around that’ and admits to being ‘niave’

C’mon ez ...what’s she and Jacinda hidingThere you go Julie Ann, how's that for your "Diversity" campaign. A great example of a woman's ability to handle a diary. And you've got Carol Herchflield who lied to her bosses. Two top women who shouldn't go near a Board.

As for JAcinda, a woman who got there due to attrition and good optics. Competency now severely under the microscope.

blackcap
28-03-2018, 06:25 AM
I am almost starting to feel sorry for Jacinda. She is looking very haggard these days, cannot be good for her health and her baby's, and she has well documented health issues prior to becoming PM. And then there is her partner's straying ways on Emirates. Cannot be easy for her at the moment.

minimoke
28-03-2018, 06:40 AM
I am almost starting to feel sorry for Jacinda. .I dont. She and Labour wanted to do a deal with the devil. She made her bed. Now she gets to lie in it. (Would we feels sorry for Andrew Little as an aging white male, if he was in the same position?)

blackcap
28-03-2018, 06:42 AM
I dont. She and Labour wanted to do a deal with the devil. She made her bed. Now she gets to lie in it. (Would we feels sorry for Andrew Little as an aging white male, if he was in the same position?)

O don't you worry, I am not sorry at all, I did have the "almost" in there. She has kept saying she is a big girl, well its time to fill those big girl boots. But I think we are not going to see her post maternity leave.

BlackPeter
28-03-2018, 07:28 AM
O don't you worry, I am not sorry at all, I did have the "almost" in there. She has kept saying she is a big girl, well its time to fill those big girl boots. But I think we are not going to see her post maternity leave.

So - who do you think is going to replace her?

Short term obviously Winston. But long term? I guess he certainly would want to, but I am not sure Labour could afford that. On the other hand - they are anyway screwed come next election ...

Anybody from the current set of ministers? Hopeless ... but wait - what about Damien O'Conner - at least he feels genuine and comes from the coast ;);

Maybe some of the back benchers could grow into the job if you give them another decade or so ...

blackcap
28-03-2018, 07:31 AM
So - who do you think is going to replace her?



Winston is the obvious answer, but the Union masters will not accept that. I think Little is the one going to fill that void. Kelvin Davis is untenable and as you go through the list you see there really is no competence or talent at all in that Labour cabinet. Sad state of affairs really but boy have National dodged a bullet by not going with NZfirst.

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 07:44 AM
Winston is the obvious answer, but the Union masters will not accept that. I think Little is the one going to fill that void. Kelvin Davis is untenable and as you go through the list you see there really is no competence or talent at all in that Labour cabinet. Sad state of affairs really but boy have National dodged a bullet by not going with NZfirst.

I doubt Little would be interested. He looked incredibly relieved when he stepped down; anyway he's useless. Stuart Nash shows promise.

minimoke
28-03-2018, 07:45 AM
I think Little is the one going to fill that void. My money would be on Little as well. But with Helen Clark out of a job and needing to ensure idle hands dont get up to mischief I think she will be pulling lots of strings in the background. I cant see those strings being attached to much else other than Little.

Winston is not an option. He is only the Leader of a Coalition partner. Arguably NZ voted for a National or Labour led government - they did not vote for a NZ First led government. As a minor party I'm sure the Greens did not join the coalition on the basis of it being led by NZ First.

Labour and Feminists are in a really difficult spot at the moment. Jacinda really has no option but to return post baby. Anything else would cause the "Diversity" movement to spin itself in a self consuming vortex of gloom. But I'm not sure a return would be good for any person in such circumstances.

tga_trader
28-03-2018, 07:50 AM
If she does give up once shes had the baby it'll set womens equality so far back, by proving peoples concerns about females in careers right.
I remember what my wife was like both during and after pregnancy, there is no way I would have wanted her running a country.

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 07:59 AM
If she does give up once shes had the baby it'll set womens equality so far back, by proving peoples concerns about females in careers right.
I remember what my wife was like both during and after pregnancy, there is no way I would have wanted her running a country.

Neither does Winston.

macduffy
28-03-2018, 08:40 AM
If she does give up once shes had the baby it'll set womens equality so far back, by proving peoples concerns about females in careers right.
I remember what my wife was like both during and after pregnancy, there is no way I would have wanted her running a country.

I'm listening to someone on NZR bemoaning the lack of women in leadership roles in NZ. "We're going backwards!"

Not a good time for that particular argument.

;)

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 08:47 AM
I'm listening to someone on NZR bemoaning the lack of women in leadership roles in NZ. "We're going backwards!"

Not a good time for that particular argument.

;)

'There are no Russian spies in NZ' says Jacinda. That's gotta be a great argument for women in leadership roles - intuition. No man could possibly know that.

westerly
28-03-2018, 08:50 AM
I'm listening to someone on NZR bemoaning the lack of women in leadership roles in NZ. "We're going backwards!"

Not a good time for that particular argument.

;)

I thought it was only women who gossip. You lot beat them hands down. :)

westerly

tga_trader
28-03-2018, 08:59 AM
I thought it was only women who gossip. You lot beat them hands down. :)

westerly

Well, if we can learn to multi-task as well then we won't even need women

minimoke
28-03-2018, 09:15 AM
Claire Curran obviously up to sneaky womanly tricks. No man could decipher what "CH Astoria" could mean in her diary. Clint gets named, so does Kiri as well as Dr Lynn T.

winner69
28-03-2018, 09:17 AM
Claire Curran obviously up to sneaky womanly tricks. No man could decipher what "CH Astoria" could mean in her diary. Clint gets named, so does Kiri as well as Dr Lynn T.

Knows how to text though ......and thats a danger in itself

BlackPeter
28-03-2018, 09:26 AM
'There are no Russian spies in NZ' says Jacinda. That's gotta be a great argument for women in leadership roles - intuition. No man could possibly know that.

That's a very sexist comment. I am sure Putin would say the same thing ... :p

minimoke
28-03-2018, 09:35 AM
Knows how to text though ......and thats a danger in itselfCH quite clearly eager to catch up with CC but CH extremely reticent about divulging meeting let alone content of discussions that took place. CC also being conservative with letting out detail. Which only suggests something under hand in play. Women so much better at this than men. And it took a woman (ML) to find them out.

westerly
28-03-2018, 10:13 AM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/john-armstrong-jacinda-ardern-has-appeared-flustered-even-rattled-during-first-crises-hit-her-government

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102232430/russian-spy-scandal-britain-reaches-out-to-new-zealand

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/our-response-to-the-nerve-gas-attack-has-been-an-act-of-self-harm/

More balanced articles

westerly

minimoke
28-03-2018, 10:39 AM
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/our-response-to-the-nerve-gas-attack-has-been-an-act-of-self-harm/

More balanced articles

westerly
Wondered what I was in for when I read "Breathing rather heavily, as if he were pleasuring himself,".

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 11:29 AM
That's a very sexist comment. I am sure Putin would say the same thing ... :p

Good point. I should have said 'no man other than Putin'. Bad mistake on my part, but then I'm only a male.

minimoke
28-03-2018, 11:34 AM
Surely not the American Council of Young Political Leaders

Not just Tamati but a few others

They'll come back much wiser I reckonIt will give him time to prepare his lines. Currently running with "i was there for 30 minutes on sunday morning. that has been very clear from the start. everything else is just fabrication." Which is at odds with the previous "He told Te Kāea that he got there Sunday morning around 9am, spoke for about 40 minutes about Māori politics, and left at 10am."

Long enough to know someone had been booted out for sexual offences and to learn about the drunken antics of kids

winner69
28-03-2018, 11:55 AM
It will give him time ot prepare his lines. Currently running with "i was there for 30 minutes on sunday morning. that has been very clear from the start. everything else is just fabrication."

Wonder whatís in his diary for that day?

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 12:09 PM
Well, if we can learn to multi-task as well then we won't even need women

Or simply become a shirt-lifter.

minimoke
28-03-2018, 01:04 PM
Wonder what’s in his diary for that day?Who knows - it might have already been cleansed. Just like the Young Labour records.

Strange how if you go here as at today there is nothing: http://www.younglabour.org.nz/executive,

But if you go here as at 17 February there is something: https://web.archive.org/web/20180217232724/Http://www.younglabour.org.nz/executive

winner69
28-03-2018, 01:27 PM
U
Who knows - it might have already been cleansed. Just like the Young Labour records.

Strange how if you go here as at today there is nothing: http://www.younglabour.org.nz/executive,



But if you go here as at 17 February there is something: https://web.archive.org/web/20180217232724/Http://www.younglabour.org.nz/executive

Ah ...executive all gone with a few keystrokes

And muzzled as well?

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 02:02 PM
I, Fungus Pudding, voluntarily declare that I will not be opting out of Labour's winter electricity payment for superannuitants, even though Jacinda says I am allowed to. I think it's about $700 per annum with which I might buy a new coat to keep warm. Or maybe a few days in Bali.

tga_trader
28-03-2018, 02:07 PM
^^Selfish. That would have reduced the fiscal hole to $11,699,999,300 . They need every cent.

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 02:14 PM
^^Selfish. That would have reduced the fiscal hole to $11,699,999,300 . They need every cent.

True, but at least I feel the guilt. I'm suffering.

elZorro
28-03-2018, 03:14 PM
True, but at least I feel the guilt. I'm suffering.

Now you've taken the deal, I hope you'll reconsider which way you'll vote next time, FP. Because surely you're a man of principle.

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 03:22 PM
Now you've taken the deal, I hope you'll reconsider which way you'll vote next time, FP. Because surely you're a man of principle.

Indeed I am. Needless to say that precludes me from voting for your dismal lot. No offence intended of course. You must remember that Taxcinda and her merry band of robbers are taking far more from me than National were going to, and handing back a few dregs in the strangest voter bribe imaginable.

minimoke
28-03-2018, 03:55 PM
Now you've taken the deal, I hope you'll reconsider which way you'll vote next time, FP. Because surely you're a man of principle.FP's tax obligation will go up on 1 April. Seems all he is doing is minimizing his overall exposure to that loss.

elZorro
28-03-2018, 04:11 PM
FP's tax obligation will go up on 1 April. Seems all he is doing is minimizing his overall exposure to that loss.

FP's income tax obligation is the same as when National were in power. National only offered that lower tax bribe to try and stay in power, and it wouldn't happen until 1st April 2018. Considering they'd already dropped the tax rate when they were in, and that had scuttled the tax take for a few years, it was a badly conceived idea anyway. National managed to post small budget surpluses in their last quarters, but judging from the capital spend catchup now needed for Crown infrastructure everywhere, they weren't real surpluses.

minimoke
28-03-2018, 04:35 PM
FP's income tax obligation is the same as when National were in power. No. Under National FP's tax obligations reduced, taking him a bit further out of poverdy and perhaps able to afford his winter heating bill. Under Labour Jacinda put his tax obligation back up so he has to pay more thus increasing his risk of death due to dire winter conditions but then she generously gave him a hand out being an old person. Young people, and those with families in poverdy remain poor.

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 04:42 PM
FP's income tax obligation is the same as when National were in power. National only offered that lower tax bribe to try and stay in power, and it wouldn't happen until 1st April 2018. Considering they'd already dropped the tax rate when they were in, and that had scuttled the tax take for a few years, it was a badly conceived idea anyway. National managed to post small budget surpluses in their last quarters, but judging from the capital spend catchup now needed for Crown infrastructure everywhere, they weren't real surpluses.

MM is correct. My tax obligations will rise on 1-4-18

BlackPeter
28-03-2018, 04:49 PM
FP's income tax obligation is the same as when National were in power. National only offered that lower tax bribe to try and stay in power, and it wouldn't happen until 1st April 2018. Considering they'd already dropped the tax rate when they were in, and that had scuttled the tax take for a few years, it was a badly conceived idea anyway. National managed to post small budget surpluses in their last quarters, but judging from the capital spend catchup now needed for Crown infrastructure everywhere, they weren't real surpluses.

Maybe the current crown-nanny should not have wasted all the dollars they steal from the taxpayer on election bribes? Free university year for everybody, more money for student allowance, free fag and booze money in winter for anybody receiving a benefit. Huge cost, little return. If your lot would have kept this money for essential spending it would be now so much easier to pay for infrastructure - wouldn't it?

elZorro
28-03-2018, 05:18 PM
MM is correct. My tax obligations will rise on 1-4-18

Compared with what they are now, or the fictional or unfulfilled National promise? Be clear.

elZorro
28-03-2018, 05:25 PM
Maybe the current crown-nanny should not have wasted all the dollars they steal from the taxpayer on election bribes? Free university year for everybody, more money for student allowance, free fag and booze money in winter for anybody receiving a benefit. Huge cost, little return. If your lot would have kept this money for essential spending it would be now so much easier to pay for infrastructure - wouldn't it?

There are obvious reasons for these subsidies. Go back a generation and we all had free tertiary education pretty much. There have been lots of stories about pensioners having to turn off heaters because they couldn't afford their power bills in winter. That would be because rent costs have gone up, and they can't move from (possibly legally uninsulated) flats. Baby boomers like me have had it good for the last 10 years, now it's time for a bit of redress.

I'm sure the tax base will improve under Labour, I don't mind if I'm part of it.

777
28-03-2018, 05:44 PM
FP's income tax obligation is the same as when National were in power. National only offered that lower tax bribe to try and stay in power, and it wouldn't happen until 1st April 2018. Considering they'd already dropped the tax rate when they were in, and that had scuttled the tax take for a few years, it was a badly conceived idea anyway. National managed to post small budget surpluses in their last quarters, but judging from the capital spend catchup now needed for Crown infrastructure everywhere, they weren't real surpluses.

Get it right eZ.

The tax reductions by National were the balance for the GST increase. The lower paid were not worse off as the tax reduction more than covered the increase in GST.

The proposed drop in income tax from this Sunday would have benefitted all the the lower income workers. To call it a bribe is rubbish.

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 06:57 PM
Compared with what they are now, or the fictional or unfulfilled National promise? Be clear.

Compared with now.

elZorro
28-03-2018, 07:09 PM
Get it right eZ.

The tax reductions by National were the balance for the GST increase. The lower paid were not worse off as the tax reduction more than covered the increase in GST.

The proposed drop in income tax from this Sunday would have benefitted all the the lower income workers. To call it a bribe is rubbish.

The GST increase affected those who spend all their income, the most. Higher income people would save a bigger portion and so not pay proportionately as much. The income tax reductions also favoured the well off, more weighted to big incomes. National deliberately shifted income tax back towards the lower income areas, regressively.

fungus pudding
28-03-2018, 07:36 PM
The GST increase affected those who spend all their income, the most. Higher income people would save a bigger portion and so not pay proportionately as much. The income tax reductions also favoured the well off, more weighted to big incomes. National deliberately shifted income tax back towards the lower income areas, regressively.

You are suffering from self-inflicted brain washing eZ.

artemis
29-03-2018, 06:11 AM
The GST increase affected those who spend all their income, the most. Higher income people would save a bigger portion and so not pay proportionately as much. The income tax reductions also favoured the well off, more weighted to big incomes. National deliberately shifted income tax back towards the lower income areas, regressively.

No GST on rent or mortgage payments. Which benefits lower income households disproportionately.

elZorro
29-03-2018, 06:56 AM
No GST on rent or mortgage payments. Which benefits lower income households disproportionately.

Then maybe that's why GST means Goods and Services Tax.


When the Government first introduced GST, it decided it would not apply to the rental of residential dwellings.

This was because of the practical difficulties of collecting GST on such rents and also so that persons renting out residential properties and owner-occupiers of homes should be on an equal footing.


GST on items within NZ is a tax where the final amount payable rests with an end-user in NZ. If the goods or services are exported of course, all the paperwork in the chain results in no net tax being paid at all.

Business operators running out of a leased commercial building usually get charged GST, and then claim it back, as it's an expense for them, not an income. So those sorts of leases are quoted as xxx +GST p.a., and the tenant and landlord largely forget about the GST effect.

At the time GST was introduced, it would have been impossible to just raise all domestic rents (and mortgages?) by 10% without an equivalent income tax or benefit payment adjustment for those affected, and there was already some work needed there that supposedly balanced GST on other items out. I did some maths at the time and posed an awkward question to David Lange on some radio show, which he carefully avoided answering. I figured out that while the effect on low to average income earners might be small, the new tax breaks at the top would greatly benefit higher income earners. This was a moment in time where baby boomers and the generation before them, got one of their big breaks. GST is a regressive tax, especially when the income tax rate at the top end was lowered more in tandem.

iceman
29-03-2018, 06:59 AM
How can the Minister for Broadcasting and "Open Government" possibly stay in her role when this is what the Cabinet Manual says: "if an employee wishes to communicate privately with a Minister about a matter concerning the agency by which he or she is employed, the Minister should ensure that the employee has first raised the matter with the agency's chief executive."

So much for open and honest Government. Hosking's headline in the Herald this morning probably the most apt: "From aspirations to aspirin"

Poor Cindy will be wishing for the maternity leave to come around fast to get away from this mess of a coalition she's trying to (unsuccessfully) manage

blackcap
29-03-2018, 07:01 AM
Poor Cindy will be wishing for the maternity leave to come around fast to get away from this mess of a coalition she's trying to (unsuccessfully) manage

Yeah but then she has her partner to contend with on a more daily basis. Not sure she wants that either. Either way Winston will be licking his chops in anticipation one feels.

fungus pudding
29-03-2018, 07:03 AM
Then maybe that's why GST means Goods and Services Tax.



GST on items within NZ is a tax where the final amount payable rests with an end-user in NZ. If the goods or services are exported of course, all the paperwork in the chain results in no net tax being paid at all.

Business operators running out of a leased commercial building usually get charged GST, and then claim it back, as it's an expense for them, not an income. So those sorts of leases are quoted as xxx +GST p.a., and the tenant and landlord largely forget about the GST effect.

At the time GST was introduced, it would have been impossible to just raise all domestic rents (and mortgages?) by 10% without an equivalent income tax or benefit payment adjustment for those affected, and there was already some work needed there that supposedly balanced GST on other items out. I did some maths at the time and posed an awkward question to David Lange on some radio show, which he carefully avoided answering. I figured out that while the effect on low to average income earners might be small, the new tax breaks at the top would greatly benefit higher income earners. This was a moment in time where baby boomers and the generation before them, got one of their big breaks. GST is a regressive tax, especially when the income tax rate at the top end was lowered more in tandem.

Thank-you for explaing something that everyone over the age of three already knew. However, the thrust of your message, that GST is an excellent and fair taxation system, is something we can all agree on.

minimoke
29-03-2018, 08:00 AM
How can the Minister for Broadcasting and "Open Government" possibly stay in her role when this is what the Cabinet Manual says: "if an employee wishes to communicate privately with a Minister about a matter concerning the agency by which he or she is employed, the Minister should ensure that the employee has first raised the matter with the agency's chief executive."

So much for open and honest Government. Hosking's headline in the Herald this morning probably the most apt: "From aspirations to aspirin"

Poor Cindy will be wishing for the maternity leave to come around fast to get away from this mess of a coalition she's trying to (unsuccessfully) manage
heres a tip for Open Government: Dont put initials in a a diary when others full names get written in.

iceman
29-03-2018, 08:04 AM
heres a tip for Open Government: Dont put initials in a a diary when others full names get written in.

And don't add it to your diary after the event !

westerly
29-03-2018, 09:11 AM
And don't add it to your diary after the event !

Print media in NZ is controlled by N.Z.M.E. and Fairfax. Television is controlled by NZME , TVNZ,
and SKY.
They all take great delight in commenting on any problems rival companies may be experiencing.
Radio NZ is the unfortunate target of all the above especially given the Labour Govt. was proposing a
RNZ tv channel.
National shut down TV7 a previous attempt to have better content than is screened by the existing companies.
We now have the media frenzy over a meeting between a Minister and a RNZ executive in a coffee shop.
How public can you get?
Perhaps if the media produced some quality news and content there would be no need for RNZ?

westerly

minimoke
29-03-2018, 09:28 AM
We now have the media frenzy over a meeting between a Minister and a RNZ executive in a coffee shop.
How public can you get?
Perhaps if the media produced some quality news and content there would be no need for RNZ?

westerly
The reason why Jacinda cant find any Russian spies is that they are out there in public acting like any Joe Bloggs. They arent wearing trench coats and hanging around park benches. A trick Clare has obviously picked up. Comrades no doubt learn lots of useful stuff in their Labour Camps.

iceman
29-03-2018, 11:29 AM
Print media in NZ is controlled by N.Z.M.E. and Fairfax. Television is controlled by NZME , TVNZ,
and SKY.
They all take great delight in commenting on any problems rival companies may be experiencing.
Radio NZ is the unfortunate target of all the above especially given the Labour Govt. was proposing a
RNZ tv channel.
National shut down TV7 a previous attempt to have better content than is screened by the existing companies.
We now have the media frenzy over a meeting between a Minister and a RNZ executive in a coffee shop.
How public can you get?
Perhaps if the media produced some quality news and content there would be no need for RNZ?

westerly

Incorrect westerly. The deserved media attention is because CH's employer explicitly bans her from direct contact to Ministers without the CEO's agreement and knowledge and the Minister broke Cabinet rules. They then both went on to lie about it, resulting the the CEO and Chairman of RNZ inadvertently lying to a select committee at Parliament, which is a crime.
You need to do better trying to justify this. CH leaving her job immediately after being forced to tell the truth, 4 months late, shows there is no question about her doing wrong. The PM should step up for once and fire the Minister as well.

Marilyn Munroe
30-03-2018, 02:26 AM
The reason why Jacinda cant find any Russian spies is that they are out there in public acting like any Joe Bloggs. They arent wearing trench coats and hanging around park benches. A trick Clare has obviously picked up. Comrades no doubt learn lots of useful stuff in their Labour Camps.

In the 40's and 50's the highest aspiration of far lefties was to live out their days in a Moscow flat. No longer, now they want to be list MP's. Allegiance to a foreign country which followed the ideology of a long dead mad scribbler wont help them get into Parliament.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

PS. When the Deputy Prime Minister gets his Russian free trade deal think of all the wonderful opportunities their will be to buy polonium novichok and surface to air missiles.

BlackPeter
30-03-2018, 05:06 PM
...
PS. When the Deputy Prime Minister gets his Russian free trade deal think of all the wonderful opportunities their will be to buy polonium novichok and surface to air missiles.

Well, yes - but on the other hand - the Brits got their Polonium and the Novichok delivered for free, didn't they? Our government is even missing out on this opportunity, but at least are the Russians laughing about us as well:

https://www.rt.com/news/422452-new-zealand-russian-spies/

iceman
01-04-2018, 07:03 AM
The media is already seeing how incompetent and inexperienced this PM of ours is http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12022383

I will be surprised if this motley lot will last a term.

westerly
01-04-2018, 10:37 AM
Well, yes - but on the other hand - the Brits got their Polonium and the Novichok delivered for free, didn't they? Our government is even missing out on this opportunity, but at least are the Russians laughing about us as well:

https://www.rt.com/news/422452-new-zealand-russian-spies/

Bush and Blair and the mythical weapons of mass destruction. The excuse to invade Iraq which has cost thousands of innocent lives.
When it was all about oil. Ironically the US. became self sufficient with the discovery of fracking.
Better to wait for the report from the OPCW before believing any thing the US or UK come out with

westerly

BlackPeter
01-04-2018, 04:43 PM
Bush and Blair and the mythical weapons of mass destruction. The excuse to invade Iraq which has cost thousands of innocent lives.
When it was all about oil. Ironically the US. became self sufficient with the discovery of fracking.
Better to wait for the report from the OPCW before believing any thing the US or UK come out with

westerly

True - you can't trust these buggers (wouldn't trust Theresa May further than I can throw an elephant ...) - can you, but the same is unfortunately true for your comrades Putin and Adern ;); Sigh - it's a scary world out there :scared:, full of fake news - and the worst thing is, this last phrase is lifted from Donald's perls of wisdom :eek2: (though better use the singular ... - perl);

winner69
03-04-2018, 04:20 PM
Hey EZ ...has Jacinda just introduced a regressive tax

I thought she said no new taxes ....

Baa_Baa
03-04-2018, 05:22 PM
Hey EZ ...has Jacinda just introduced a regressive tax

I thought she said no new taxes ....

Or 'proposing' a new tax on fuel! "The Government is proposing a fuel tax increase of between nine and 12 cents a litre to fund a raft of new land transport plans that focus on investing in road safety and rapid rail." --- on top of the 10cents Aucklanders will pay through Councils' money grab.

That's close to 10% increase for dorklanders and 6% for everyone else who probably doesn't give a toss about Auckland roads, or their light rail.

Ok, I get it that road safety is important, but just divert some of the billions in the aggressive state highway upgrades programme to do that, i.e. stretch it out a bit.

As for funding light rail through a tax on fuel, no way! Punishing the vehicle owners with taxes that fund alternative transport, is what socialist governments do that pizz-off not only those who would have voted other than Labour, but also their own constituency.

fungus pudding
03-04-2018, 05:48 PM
Hey EZ ...has Jacinda just introduced a regressive tax

I thought she said no new taxes ....

They're just sliding down into the 11 billion hole.

elZorro
03-04-2018, 06:10 PM
Hey EZ ...has Jacinda just introduced a regressive tax

I thought she said no new taxes ....

Apparently it's not a new tax, as National were told they'd have to do the same, to fund their highways of questionable significance.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12025268

Reading through all this, I think the aims are clear, I agree with them, I'll be paying a bit more for petrol. Maybe I'll buy an electric car sometime, for short trips. It's a good idea for Aucklanders to pay a bit more for their own fuel, make them think about running cars vs light rail or buses, bikes or walking. It's a great idea to spend some of the levy income on rail, public transport, or shipping. Plus the spending on the new motorways will drop back by 11%.

I have no doubt that this has been some kind of a gravy train for heavy transport operators. I know of one wheeler-dealer guy that started up a trucking firm a couple of years ago, he'd never remotely been in the business before, bought some older dump trucks, trained up some people and now they're moving dirt around from the local motorway jobs. More work than they can poke a stick at, it's just too easy, and you can see countless diggers being used around the place too. I suspect that the people owning that sort of gear have been lobbying the previous National govt for this work for a few years. Labour is saying that this particular work might drop back a bit in future.

winner69
03-04-2018, 06:32 PM
Well there goes most if not all of the low paid workers 75 cents an hour wage increase

Been a few studies over the years that conclude that once petrol gets close to $2.20 litre overall retail sales start to suffer

elZorro
03-04-2018, 08:47 PM
Well there goes most if not all of the low paid workers 75 cents an hour wage increase

Been a few studies over the years that conclude that once petrol gets close to $2.20 litre overall retail sales start to suffer

This article and the comments show that we're probably not that different from Australia in total costs to run a car on the road.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98589130/why-are-petrol-prices-so-much-cheaper-in-australia

I agree that once a 50L tankful costs over $100, I'm thinking about it. Must be tough for the oil companies to hand over all those levies they've collected for the govt, it would have to be a big cheque.

Would more fuel levies be a regressive tax? Maybe not, big road users with big rigs would pay a fair bit of it, and those lacking funds are already limiting their vehicle use. Those queues at petrol stations are often worsened with people dutifully trudging inside to get a pump authorised, and then they're only buying $10 worth.

winner69
04-04-2018, 07:02 AM
This article and the comments show that we're probably not that different from Australia in total costs to run a car on the road.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98589130/why-are-petrol-prices-so-much-cheaper-in-australia

I agree that once a 50L tankful costs over $100, I'm thinking about it. Must be tough for the oil companies to hand over all those levies they've collected for the govt, it would have to be a big cheque.

Would more fuel levies be a regressive tax? Maybe not, big road users with big rigs would pay a fair bit of it, and those lacking funds are already limiting their vehicle use. Those queues at petrol stations are often worsened with people dutifully trudging inside to get a pump authorised, and then they're only buying $10 worth.

C’mon EZ ....you know it’s a regressive tax .....and you often say regressive taxes are bad

Those big rigs you mentioned .....increased costs find their way back to consumers eh

This 10 cents extra is $300m out of consumers pockets

And when you consider what Jacinda and Phil say they are going to use it for (cycleways and trams) one could say the drivers are paying more to get less

blackcap
04-04-2018, 07:05 AM
Would more fuel levies be a regressive tax? Maybe not, big road users with big rigs would pay a fair bit of it, and those lacking funds are already limiting their vehicle use. Those queues at petrol stations are often worsened with people dutifully trudging inside to get a pump authorised, and then they're only buying $10 worth.

Pull the other one El Zorro. A petrol tax hits the poor hardest, they are the ones where petrol is a larger % of their income than the more wealthy. You know its regressive, but you just cannot find it in yourself to be critical of your love for Labour.

elZorro
04-04-2018, 07:16 AM
Pull the other one El Zorro. A petrol tax hits the poor hardest, they are the ones where petrol is a larger % of their income than the more wealthy. You know its regressive, but you just cannot find it in yourself to be critical of your love for Labour.

Most people on the dole can't afford to run a scooter, let alone a car. So they'd be using public transport or walking. Some workers pool vehicles to get to work, or are subsidised by employers in some way. I can afford to drive a car, so I don't use public transport. I can afford the levy increase, and don't forget National would have been doing the same thing, maybe more so. I realise that having more funds coming in for transport changes and upgrades will hopefully reduce congestion on the roads, and make them safer.

winner69
04-04-2018, 07:16 AM
Pull the other one El Zorro. A petrol tax hits the poor hardest, they are the ones where petrol is a larger % of their income than the more wealthy. You know its regressive, but you just cannot find it in yourself to be critical of your love for Labour.

And GST is added to this new Ďlevyí

elZorro
04-04-2018, 07:20 AM
C’mon EZ ....you know it’s a regressive tax .....and you often say regressive taxes are bad

Those big rigs you mentioned .....increased costs find their way back to consumers eh

This 10 cents extra is $300m out of consumers pockets

And when you consider what Jacinda and Phil say they are going to use it for (cycleways and trams) one could say the drivers are paying more to get less

Drivers are paying to encourage and develop more use of public transport, for better systems and safety features, all of which will make their driving experience better and save them time when commuting. It's also an encouragement to move into the far more efficient electric vehicles, I don't think they're going to tax electricity any differently.

winner69
04-04-2018, 08:09 AM
Drivers are paying to encourage and develop more use of public transport, for better systems and safety features, all of which will make their driving experience better and save them time when commuting. It's also an encouragement to move into the far more efficient electric vehicles, I don't think they're going to tax electricity any differently.

I only hope those many families who live in the outer suburbs ( and by necessity often have two cars) see it this way

fungus pudding
04-04-2018, 08:13 AM
I only hope those many families who live in the outer suburbs ( and by necessity often have two cars) see it this way

Of course they will.

BlackPeter
04-04-2018, 08:45 AM
Drivers are paying to encourage and develop more use of public transport, for better systems and safety features, all of which will make their driving experience better and save them time when commuting. It's also an encouragement to move into the far more efficient electric vehicles, I don't think they're going to tax electricity any differently.

Don't forget that electric vehicles will soon be liable for RUC which is increasing as well. Hardly a good way to save money ... but hey, apparently somebody elected the big taxers, bullies and spenders, will hopefully teach us a lesson or two ;);

iceman
04-04-2018, 10:08 AM
Hey EZ ...has Jacinda just introduced a regressive tax

I thought she said no new taxes ....

Wrong winner. Taxinda has confirmed this is not a new tax so not breaking pre election promises. Based on that, she can increase all current taxes and still not break her promise. Clever. "Let's do this"

winner69
04-04-2018, 11:14 AM
Wrong winner. Taxinda has confirmed this is not a new tax so not breaking pre election promises. Based on that, she can increase all current taxes and still not break her promise. Clever. "Let's do this"

Stupid me in misunderstanding her.

No doubt a new trend ....the trend is your friend they say so all honky dory

minimoke
04-04-2018, 11:16 AM
It's also an encouragement to move into the far more efficient electric vehicles, I don't think they're going to tax electricity any differently.Only the rich can afford electric vehicles. More electric vehicles means less petrol which means greater burden on the poor through their petrol tax

BlackPeter
04-04-2018, 11:22 AM
Stupid me in misunderstanding her.

No doubt a new trend ....the trend is your friend they say so all honky dory

You got it. Though obviously it would be these days more PC to say "the trend is your comrade" ;).

Comrades are people who take money from the performers in a society and than waste it just to make sure everybody has little. I hear Shane Jones is a great comrade ;); Ah yes - and Cindy loves comrades :p; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig;

iceman
04-04-2018, 11:52 AM
She will have lots of money for her Comrades too with the new taxes and the English Government leaving them with $1BILLION more surplus than forecast for the 8 months to
Feb !

westerly
04-04-2018, 05:19 PM
She will have lots of money for her Comrades too with the new taxes and the English Government leaving them with $1BILLION more surplus than forecast for the 8 months to
Feb !

The English govt. was so wrapped up in creating a surplus and tax cuts it refused to spend money on essential services. Middlemore hospital being a prime example.
With a Prime Minister and 2 failed candidates for the position deserting ship they must have realised the results of their penny pinching nine years in govt. were going to be too difficult to face up to.
Better to cut and run.
Bridgy is now running for cover having been found out ignoring advice to recall cars over dodgy airbags.

westerly

777
04-04-2018, 05:31 PM
"Bridgy is now running for cover having been found out ignoring advice to recall cars over dodgy airbags."

Actually everyone was advised when the situation arose and with a bit of personal responsibility those affected could have done something about it. The trouble is so many people have to be spoon fed so the government has to make it compulsory.

Joshuatree
04-04-2018, 05:51 PM
And Coleman has done a runner and refuses interviews as the multi $ billion health services hole gets bigger and bigger with more and more dodgy hospital buildings showing up.

Baa_Baa
04-04-2018, 06:54 PM
And Coleman has done a runner and refuses interviews as the multi $ billion health services hole gets bigger and bigger with more and more dodgy hospital buildings showing up.

Joyce probably knew what he was talking about, re Labour's $11 billion hole in their budget. Despite the derision at the time. Anyway, it's up to Labour to figure it out now (careful what you wish for eh?). Not much public capital in blaming the National government in opposition, albeit standard fare for political debate which will sustain the entire term of Labour, however short that might be. It's Labour's coalition that has to deliver now, they should focus on that, as well as their advocates.

Joshuatree
04-04-2018, 06:57 PM
They sure do, what a hospital pass;)

Joshuatree
04-04-2018, 10:12 PM
Cartoons about the rotten state of health in New Zealand (http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2018/04/cartoons-about-the-rotten-state-of-health-in-new-zealand.html)

winner69
05-04-2018, 06:24 AM
Havenít seen much in the media lately about the perceived housing crisis

Has the Government fixed it then?

fungus pudding
05-04-2018, 08:01 AM
Haven’t seen much in the media lately about the perceived housing crisis

Has the Government fixed it then?

Yep. Twyford. Minister of magic just waved his wand and bingo! Sorted.

westerly
05-04-2018, 08:15 AM
Havenít seen much in the media lately about the perceived housing crisis

Has the Government fixed it then?

It is a hospital crisis at the moment

westerly

BlackPeter
05-04-2018, 08:29 AM
It is a hospital crisis at the moment

westerly

Bit worried about our new government - shouldn't they first solve one crisis before they create the next one?

What are we doing if people recognize that Labour can't solve health either? Invite the Russians to invade?

minimoke
05-04-2018, 08:49 AM
Bit worried about our new government - shouldn't they first solve one crisis before they create the next one?

What are we doing if people recognize that Labour can't solve health either? Invite the Russians to invade?Its always best to have at least a couple of crisis on the go at once. That way you multi-choice when it comes to providing distractions from other issues. For example if you want to increase taxes create a crisis to fill the news media with a more compelling crisis (children, health, education, homelessness are the go-to crisis creation options)

BlackPeter
05-04-2018, 09:23 AM
Its always best to have at least a couple of crisis on the go at once. That way you multi-choice when it comes to providing distractions from other issues. For example if you want to increase taxes create a crisis to fill the news media with a more compelling crisis (children, health, education, homelessness are the go-to crisis creation options)

Cunning - you mean they just want to distract the voters from increasing the petrol and Road user taxes to give comrade Shane Jones more money to waste and more ammunition to bully companies and the opposition (though I think latter was not Shane but one of his NZF colleagues on behalf of him, wasn't it)?

Maybe the source of all evil spin doctors is now working for Labour/NZF? Niccolo Machiavelli - or was this CT?

minimoke
05-04-2018, 11:51 AM
Cunning - you mean they just want to distract the voters from increasing the petrol and Road user taxes to give comrade Shane Jones more money to waste and more ammunition to bully companies and the opposition (though I think latter was not Shane but one of his NZF colleagues on behalf of him, wasn't it)?

Maybe the source of all evil spin doctors is now working for Labour/NZF? Niccolo Machiavelli - or was this CT?Alternatively you could just leave Clare Curran with a spade and let her keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. What was she thinking telling Richard Griffin (Chair of RNZ) he could just write a letter to the Select Committee and no need for him to turn up and face questions. And thats beside justifying why the Minister of Broadcasting needs to be at the Commonwealth GAmes. Probably a trick left off war veteran Ron Mark - lob the grenade and run like hell out of there.


I suspect Currans might be the first head to roll in this new government.

fungus pudding
05-04-2018, 01:16 PM
Alternatively you could just leave Clare Curran with a spade and let her keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. What was she thinking telling Richard Griffin (Chair of RNZ) he could just write a letter to the Select Committee and no need for him to turn up and face questions. And thats beside justifying why the Minister of Broadcasting needs to be at the Commonwealth GAmes. Probably a trick left off war veteran Ron Mark - lob the grenade and run like hell out of there.


I suspect Currans might be the first head to roll in this new government.

What a crying shame that would be !

RGR367
05-04-2018, 03:12 PM
Alternatively you could just leave Clare Curran with a spade and let her keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. What was she thinking telling Richard Griffin (Chair of RNZ) he could just write a letter to the Select Committee and no need for him to turn up and face questions. And thats beside justifying why the Minister of Broadcasting needs to be at the Commonwealth GAmes. Probably a trick left off war veteran Ron Mark - lob the grenade and run like hell out of there.


I suspect Currans might be the first head to roll in this new government.

It just would not disappear, would it?

minimoke
05-04-2018, 03:29 PM
And now time for a wee break and a chance to play a game as Jacinda Lurches from one drama to another.

Its simple really - just put these photos in a timeline. One before the election, one today and one in three months time.

BlackPeter
05-04-2018, 03:38 PM
And now time for a wee break and a chance to play a game as Jacinda Lurches from one drama to another.

Its simple really - just put these photos in a timeline. One before the election, one today and one in three months time.

That's mean - you think she will wear such a bourgeois bow tie?

elZorro
05-04-2018, 07:11 PM
Haven’t seen much in the media lately about the perceived housing crisis

Has the Government fixed it then?

Small steps. Kiwibuild is kicking off in July this year. Hamilton moving into line.

http://www2.nzherald.co.nz/hamilton-news/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503366&objectid=11995671

fungus pudding
05-04-2018, 07:18 PM
Small steps. Kiwibuild is kicking off in July this year. Hamilton moving into line.

http://www2.nzherald.co.nz/hamilton-news/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503366&objectid=11995671

The comment about cheap junk builds is accurate. Build quality. Every new house adds to the total and often frees one up down the line.
It's ridiculous to try and build new for first home buyers. Past efforts have often become slum areas.

elZorro
05-04-2018, 09:17 PM
The comment about cheap junk builds is accurate. Build quality. Every new house adds to the total and often frees one up down the line.
It's ridiculous to try and build new for first home buyers. Past efforts have often become slum areas.

If that is all correct, then why has the market failed to produce more affordable homes? Yesterday I was talking to an Aucklander who wants to leave town, they're quite able to, because the land they're living on is valued at about $1.8mill, even though the old house on it would probably be bulldozed. Even divided up into four homes, which won't go down well in that suburb, the start price on the land alone would be $450,000. That's the market that Kiwibuild has to surmount before they can provide affordable houses, and it's all about purchasing power and building at scale. It doesn't have to be a cheap-looking development.

fungus pudding
06-04-2018, 01:31 AM
If that is all correct, then why has the market failed to produce more affordable homes? Yesterday I was talking to an Aucklander who wants to leave town, they're quite able to, because the land they're living on is valued at about $1.8mill, even though the old house on it would probably be bulldozed. Even divided up into four homes, which won't go down well in that suburb, the start price on the land alone would be $450,000. That's the market that Kiwibuild has to surmount before they can provide affordable houses, and it's all about purchasing power and building at scale. It doesn't have to be a cheap-looking development.

The developers need only produce homes - preferably not aimed at first time or low equity buyers. The market will open up opporunities down the track with second hand dwellings for them; exactly the way nearly everyone born without a silver-spoon, but with a hammer and a paint brush, starts off. The key to it all is simply opening more land - town planning.

RGR367
06-04-2018, 08:49 AM
Oh boy, the quality of the ruling MP's that we have now http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/jones-says-he-forgot-about-officals-warnings-project-was-a-lemon/ar-AAvw1cX?li=AAaeXZz&ocid=ientp

craic
06-04-2018, 08:51 AM
Just spent four days in a general surgical ward here, Hastings. What an experience that was - bodies everywhere, day and night. No rest for the wicked, or the good. Umpteen different uniforms of many colours from the tea lady up to the surgeon. Someone remarked that it is not a place to go if you need a rest and they were very right. One major change from earlier experiences is that pain is not tolerated and the morphine is served without fuss. The food was bland to say the least - sugar and salt was available on request but it wasn't used in cooking. The building itself appeared to be perfectly serviceable. First thing on release? Into a BP service station for a mince and cheese pie and a Danish.

BlackPeter
06-04-2018, 09:43 AM
Oh boy, the quality of the ruling MP's that we have now http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/jones-says-he-forgot-about-officals-warnings-project-was-a-lemon/ar-AAvw1cX?li=AAaeXZz&ocid=ientp

Remember - he was too busy at that time bullying AIR New Zealand and threatening their board. Probably more fun for him than worrying about a sensible allocation of taxpayer funds. Once a bully, always a bully. But yes, it is a concern that people like that are allowed to run government.

I assume Cindy will turn the other blind eye ... power corrupts.

blackcap
06-04-2018, 10:01 AM
"National should not rush at nailing Curran. She’s more useful being an idiot minister. If she does go then they have to find another fool, not that there is a shortage of them right now."

This quote taken from Whale oil. I couldn't agree more. Curren really is an idiot and if National leave her as a minister she will provide more opportunities and also she is pretty much a dead minister as no one will want to be seen/associate with her in and around parliament.

fungus pudding
06-04-2018, 10:26 AM
Remember - he was too busy at that time bullying AIR New Zealand and threatening their board. Probably more fun for him than worrying about a sensible allocation of taxpayer funds. Once a bully, always a bully. But yes, it is a concern that people like that are allowed to run government.

I assume Cindy will turn the other blind eye ... power corrupts.

He's poking his nose into the Warehouse now. He should stick to watching those movies.

westerly
06-04-2018, 10:27 AM
Remember - he was too busy at that time bullying AIR New Zealand and threatening their board. Probably more fun for him than worrying about a sensible allocation of taxpayer funds. Once a bully, always a bully. But yes, it is a concern that people like that are allowed to run government.

I assume Cindy will turn the other blind eye ... power corrupts.

Who are you suggesting is corrupt?

westerly

BlackPeter
06-04-2018, 10:55 AM
Who are you suggesting is corrupt?

westerly

Just citing John Dalberg-Acton :);

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men"

Obviously - John's world was not PC ... otherwise we would have talked about "women" instead of "men"

Who is in power? I guess you can easily answer your question yourself, but if I need to point you to some symptoms of the problem, than just follow a bit the saga around your new found populist friends.

Trying to silence opposition MP's by threatening to withdraw support from projects in their electorates if they speak for them would be corruption. Threatening to withdraw regional support as penalty for a MP criticizing a government minister would be corruption. Was this really just a big misunderstanding created by inept government MP's?

Agree however that the senior coalition partner at this stage seems to make more headlines just through acting incompetent, than corrupt. But hey - we don't know everything, and I am just wondering why we still couldn't identify the sex offender in Labour's annual binge drinking contest? Maybe somebody in the know could comment on the rumor that the offender is the offspring of a Labour minister?

Would somebody else enjoy similar protection? If no - than this would be corruption as well.

westerly
06-04-2018, 01:28 PM
Just citing John Dalberg-Acton :);

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men"

Obviously - John's world was not PC ... otherwise we would have talked about "women" instead of "men"

Who is in power? I guess you can easily answer your question yourself, but if I need to point you to some symptoms of the problem, than just follow a bit the saga around your new found populist friends.

Trying to silence opposition MP's by threatening to withdraw support from projects in their electorates if they speak for them would be corruption. Threatening to withdraw regional support as penalty for a MP criticizing a government minister would be corruption. Was this really just a big misunderstanding created by inept government MP's?

Agree however that the senior coalition partner at this stage seems to make more headlines just through acting incompetent, than corrupt. But hey - we don't know everything, and I am just wondering why we still couldn't identify the sex offender in Labour's annual binge drinking contest? Maybe somebody in the know could comment on the rumor that the offender is the offspring of a Labour minister?

Would somebody else enjoy similar protection? If no - than this would be corruption as well.

And where were you when Alfred Ngaro threatened to cut off NGO funding if they spoke out against National policies.? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11856955

And as for the sex offender, as the matter was subject to a complaint to the police perhaps you should wait until they decide on prosecution before lowering yourself to whaleoils level with speculation and rumour.
Possibly your only true statement was "But hey we don't know everything" In your case fairly obvious.

westerly

fungus pudding
06-04-2018, 01:39 PM
Just citing John Dalberg-Acton :);

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men"

Obviously - John's world was not PC ... otherwise we would have talked about "women" instead of "men"

Who is in power? I guess you can easily answer your question yourself, but if I need to point you to some symptoms of the problem, than just follow a bit the saga around your new found populist friends.

Trying to silence opposition MP's by threatening to withdraw support from projects in their electorates if they speak for them would be corruption. Threatening to withdraw regional support as penalty for a MP criticizing a government minister would be corruption. Was this really just a big misunderstanding created by inept government MP's?

Agree however that the senior coalition partner at this stage seems to make more headlines just through acting incompetent, than corrupt. But hey - we don't know everything, and I am just wondering why we still couldn't identify the sex offender in Labour's annual binge drinking contest? Maybe somebody in the know could comment on the rumor that the offender is the offspring of a Labour minister?



That's certainly the rumour, but eZ will be happy to confirm it for us. He'll be along shortly.

BlackPeter
06-04-2018, 03:04 PM
And where were you when Alfred Ngaro threatened to cut off NGO funding if they spoke out against National policies.? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11856955

And as for the sex offender, as the matter was subject to a complaint to the police perhaps you should wait until they decide on prosecution before lowering yourself to whaleoils level with speculation and rumour.
Possibly your only true statement was "But hey we don't know everything" In your case fairly obvious.

westerly

I have no clue what you are referring to (and no point to retrospectively score points) - but I am sure that you made at that stage enough noises for the two of us (though I honestly don't remember ... maybe I qualify for a minister position in the current government ;)), no matter whether justified or not :p.

BTW - I did happen to notice as well as comment on things I didn't like with the previous government. Nobody said they were perfect.

Really interesting however to see how somebody who never could see any good in the last government has now problems to see much worse issues with the current bunch.

I am sure you would have no problems in rightly criticizing NZF if they would behave the way they currently do in a coalition with National.

The fact that the populist bullies are currently supporting your lot is blindsiding you and makes you ignore their behavior. This is a form of corruption as well. Think about it.

iceman
10-04-2018, 06:27 AM
Just watched Jacinda on the AM Show. Sad really but basically I think they've already found Steven Joyce's HOLE in their budget and realise they can't do most of the things they'd promised. The Middlemore issue is simply a diversion and costs only about $50m to fix. Just do it.
All she is really saying now is "we can't do this".
This Government is completely in over their heads, poor buggers.

minimoke
10-04-2018, 08:01 AM
Just watched Jacinda on the AM Show. Sad really but basically I think they've already found Steven Joyce's HOLE in their budget and realise they can't do most of the things they'd promised. The Middlemore issue is simply a diversion and costs only about $50m to fix. Just do it.
All she is really saying now is "we can't do this".
This Government is completely in over their heads, poor buggers.Loosening us up for more tax increases I reckon

Joshuatree
10-04-2018, 09:39 AM
Just watched Jacinda on the AM Show. Sad really but basically I think they've already found Steven Joyce's HOLE in their budget and realise they can't do most of the things they'd promised. The Middlemore issue is simply a diversion and costs only about $50m to fix. Just do it.
All she is really saying now is "we can't do this".
This Government is completely in over their heads, poor buggers.

What a lightweight entertainment show AM is , Try listening to National radio where they really dig down to the truth. This is why some national MP's just won't be interviewed or hang up.

And now we are seeing what an irresponsible power over everything tactic National were offering with the tax cut bribe when for 9 years things have been run down, under investment, maintenance not kept up etc. Corrupt and inept and dishonest.

minimoke
10-04-2018, 09:59 AM
And now we are seeing what an irresponsible power over everything tactic National were offering with the tax cut bribe when for 9 years things have been run down, under investment, maintenance not kept up etc. Corrupt and inept and dishonest.Since when is "maintenance" a government issue. That shouldnt even rate with the Board or CEO. Its just a bog standard operational matter.

fungus pudding
10-04-2018, 10:30 AM
Since when is "maintenance" a government issue. That shouldnt even rate with the Board or CEO. Its just a bog standard operational matter.

Labour will spend the rest of their term blaming National for every single problem in the entire world because Labour conveniently forgot to budget for things like maintaining hospitals. Naturally they will start hurling rocks at the previous govt; a time honoured standard behaviour for all newly elected govts. be they Labour or National.

Joshuatree
10-04-2018, 11:00 AM
Thats true fp but its extreme this time imo, the underfunding, run down excessively by previous govt.
Seems to me like a cult of fear from the top down in some of these organisations/ govt depts, health being the sector im thinking. IF Coleman really didn't know , why not? Everyone is under pressure to keep costs down and effiencies up but on minimal funding, everyone is covering their butts, so no one risks being a messenger and reporting things that are wrong. This goes all the way down to the front line staff, nurses who it turns out are being bullied by doctors , themselves under pressure and so on. This top down autocratic system needs changing and at the same time funding found for the health system.

minimoke
10-04-2018, 11:19 AM
Thats true fp but its extreme this time imo, the underfunding, run down excessively by previous govt.
Seems to me like a cult of fear from the top down in some of these organisations/ govt depts, health being the sector im thinking. IF Coleman really didn't know , why not? Everyone is under pressure to keep costs down and effiencies up but on minimal funding, everyone is covering their butts, so no one risks being a messenger and reporting things that are wrong. This goes all the way down to the front line staff, nurses who it turns out are being bullied by doctors , themselves under pressure and so on. This top down autocratic system needs changing and at the same time funding found for the health system.
Local managers too busy thinking they owned an Auckland Interantional Airport (AIA) and spending public money on retail space: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/89152140/new-cafe-and-retail-space-opens-at-middlemore-hospital

minimoke
11-04-2018, 02:28 PM
A test for open justice. To get Clare Currans email via subpoena a majority of the Select Committee is required. Thats 6 votes. 5 already there with National (Labour will be ruing giving away the extra Select Committee seats the day Parliament sat) and just one vote for transparent justice from either Labour, Greens or NZ First. If there is nothing to hide then none of these three parties should have any difficulty giving the required vote.

minimoke
12-04-2018, 09:07 AM
Astounding. Labour decide to end off shore oil exploration without setting up a committee first!

iceman
12-04-2018, 09:49 AM
Astounding. Labour decide to end off shore oil exploration without setting up a committee first!

I'm afraid this is yet another policy that has not been thought through nor the consequences understood. It has been clear since Jacinda said global warming was the "nuclear moment" of her generation that this was going to happen. But now that we have joined Belize and France in banning offshore drilling, I'm sure global warming will slow down.

minimoke
12-04-2018, 10:09 AM
I'm afraid this is yet another policy that has not been thought through nor the consequences understood. It has been clear since Jacinda said global warming was the "nuclear moment" of her generation that this was going to happen. But now that we have joined Belize and France in banning offshore drilling, I'm sure global warming will slow down.
Our nuclear moment is interesting. Yes its true today we do not have any nuclear energy nor nuclear warheads. But then again we never would have.

In the meantime there remains a global arsenal of 15,000 nuclear warheads in USA, UK, France, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel.

If she thinks David Langes nuclear debate in 1985 influenced the limitation treaties (mainly affecting USA and Russia) since 1991 then shes dreaming. USA alone is set to spent $1T modenrising it nuclear weapons to 2040. And there are currently over 50 nuclear reactors being built.

So just what was our "nuclear moment"?

blackcap
12-04-2018, 10:23 AM
Gotta love the response from NZO:

Environmental effect of ban on new exploration
The ban on new exploration may mean carbon emissions in New Zealand and
globally will be higher for longer.

This is because petroleum resources in New Zealand are likely to be gas and
gas condensate. Gas is a lower carbon alternative to coal for uses such as
industrial heating, where no economically viable renewable alternative
exists.

If new gas supplies are unavailable then coal will continue to be used
domestically for purposes such as dairy drying plants. Globally,
ethically-produced natural gas from New Zealand produces far fewer emissions
than alternatives such as Canadian tar sands or Venezuelan bitumen.
Therefore, if natural gas from New Zealand is not permitted then the world
will use more high-carbon fuel sources."

Jacinda et al really are pathetically stupid.

freddagg
12-04-2018, 10:47 AM
[QUOTE=minimoke;710936][/
So just what was our "nuclear moment"?QUOTE]

Primarily it was a lot of damage to the NZ economy just like Jacindas nuclear moment will be.

minimoke
12-04-2018, 11:07 AM
Gotta love the response from NZO:

Gas is a lower carbon alternative to coal for uses such as
industrial heating, where no economically viable renewable alternative
exists.

.
I'm not so sure about that. The biggest local industrial heater I can think of locally is Tiwai Point. And they have their own hydro system

minimoke
12-04-2018, 11:26 AM
Apparently we have 10 years of current known gas reserves left. What happens after that? 7,000 local jobs in Taranaki gone. $000m's in royalties gone. Absolutely zero change to global CO2 emissions.

Marilyn Munroe
12-04-2018, 12:18 PM
Mr Speaker my question is to the Prime Minister and asks; If there is a surge in electricity demand and gas has run out will she support nuclear energy?

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

Marilyn Munroe
12-04-2018, 12:27 PM
If new gas supplies are unavailable then coal will continue to be used
domestically for purposes such as dairy drying plants.


It is worse than that it will increase. The Fonterra plant at Whareroa is a large natural gas user. The most logical alternative for them is coal.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

Zaphod
12-04-2018, 12:33 PM
Apparently we have 10 years of current known gas reserves left. What happens after that? 7,000 local jobs in Taranaki gone. $000m's in royalties gone. Absolutely zero change to global CO2 emissions.

The effects in Taranaki will be felt immediately as oil companies change their long term plans. Industries like Ballance who plan major overhauls of their urea plant at Kapuni may also reconsider their plan.

This decision came far too quickly with absolutely no strategic plan in place to adjust NZ to a life with only imported oil & gas.

Claiming the Government have provided Taranaki with $5M for a cathedral revamp and $20m to upgrade DOC mountain tracks is a pathetic drop in the bucket for what will actually be required.

minimoke
12-04-2018, 12:41 PM
Claiming the Government have provided Taranaki with $5M for a cathedral revamp That is an excellent investment - Taranaki people are going to need all the help they can get.

minimoke
12-04-2018, 12:54 PM
It is worse than that it will increase. The Fonterra plant at Whareroa is a large natural gas user. The most logical alternative for them is coal.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn
Roughly 1/4 of gas goes to electricity generation. How are those Electric Vehicles going to get charged up?
Roughly 1/3 goes to NZ industry who employ hard working Kiwi's. Throw in a $20 minimum Wage or Living Wage and its good bye to a lot of local employment.

About 4% goes to voters homes for cooking and heating. Well they will be out of luck as hydro gets diverted to EV's.

Scooter
12-04-2018, 01:17 PM
I ask the question. If an ordinary employee in the gas sector in Taranaki earns over $100k per annum in a low skilled job, how on earth are they going to find something that pays anywhere near that amount with no skills.

BlackPeter
12-04-2018, 01:43 PM
Apparently we have 10 years of current known gas reserves left. What happens after that? 7,000 local jobs in Taranaki gone. $000m's in royalties gone. Absolutely zero change to global CO2 emissions.

Not an issue for the current government - they will be out before that and just intend to blame National for the rising unemployment Labour created ...

BlackPeter
12-04-2018, 01:48 PM
I ask the question. If an ordinary employee in the gas sector in Taranaki earns over $100k per annum in a low skilled job, how on earth are they going to find something that pays anywhere near that amount with no skills.

No problem - Cindy will increase the minimum wage to $48 per hour. If she manages to devalue the NZD at the same time by 60%, we might even internationally survive. Problem solved ... and just think about all the additional taxes she will get from this wage hike. Win-win.

macduffy
13-04-2018, 07:13 AM
The term "our nuclear moment" seems to be spot on. Just as we were content to shelter under someone else's nuclear umbrella, so we are now happy to continue to run our economy on someone else's energy. I wonder how long it's going to be before we're able to harness the power of the sun - or the wind! - in order to continue our love affair with aeroplanes?

;)

JBmurc
13-04-2018, 01:03 PM
Apparently we have 10 years of current known gas reserves left. What happens after that? 7,000 local jobs in Taranaki gone. $000m's in royalties gone. Absolutely zero change to global CO2 emissions.

Meanwhile in 2017 New Zealand oil imports hit an all time high:

ďOil imports reached their highest level on record,
up 5.4% or 3.2 million barrels, driven by a 41% increase in
diesel imports.Ē

minimoke
13-04-2018, 01:28 PM
Meanwhile in 2017 New Zealand oil imports hit an all time high:

“Oil imports reached their highest level on record,
up 5.4% or 3.2 million barrels, driven by a 41% increase in
diesel imports.”CO2 emitted by burning 1 Btu of diesel = 161 pounds. Co2 emitted by burning 1 btu of natural gas = 117 pounds. Good one Labour - kill off a few more polar bears why don't you.

minimoke
13-04-2018, 02:07 PM
And in the meantime our neighbours are going to reopen a shuttered coal fired power station at Redbank so they can mine cryptocurrencies.

JBmurc
14-04-2018, 08:58 AM
The word inside the government is that they wanted to go much, much further, but it was Winston who held them up in cabinet. Labour and the Greens wanted all existing oil and gas exploration halted as well.

https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/04/hawkesby-government-not-interested-in-listening/


Not looking good comrades

Marilyn Munroe
15-04-2018, 07:15 PM
There will be oohing and ahhing from the treasury benches about the exploration ban. When Kiwi's are forced to eat cold baked beans by candle light there will be running and screaming.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

iceman
16-04-2018, 08:52 AM
So despite all the screaming in opposition, Labour and its coalition partners (including sacked councillor Eugine Sage), have decided to follow the previous Government's time table for Canterbury regional council's return to full democracy at next year's local body election. Cindy Astern at work once more.

winner69
16-04-2018, 09:00 AM
So despite all the screaming in opposition, Labour and its coalition partners (including sacked councillor Eugine Sage), have decided to follow the previous Government's time table for Canterbury regional council's return to full democracy at next year's local body election. Cindy Astern at work once more.

Its all different when you actually get in the driving seat eh

Grant seemed to enjoy himself at the Comm Games

westerly
16-04-2018, 06:01 PM
So despite all the screaming in opposition, Labour and its coalition partners (including sacked councillor Eugine Sage), have decided to follow the previous Government's time table for Canterbury regional council's return to full democracy at next year's local body election. Cindy Astern at work once more.

"The primary barrier is the upcoming representation review, which would set the electoral boundaries for the next election. It is likely to be completed part way through next year.

Because the existing boundaries were drawn under the current ECan Act, it is unclear how all 13 councillors would be elected until the review was completed.

Acting ECan chairman Steve Lowndes, who supports a return to democracy, said he hoped the Government would not force elections."

Waiting a year is nothing compared with Nationals flagrant abuse of democracy.

westerly

minimoke
18-04-2018, 11:24 AM
Oh jeez. Adern Meets the German Chancellor. And the best she can come up with is a stuffed kiwi. Classy, and oh so apt.

winner69
20-04-2018, 07:59 AM
I see Helen lurking at CHOGM

Hope she is keeping an eye on Grantís budget while on this little jaunt

Joshuatree
20-04-2018, 09:51 AM
From TIME
most influential 100 people of 2018 (http://time.com/collection/most-influential-people-2018/)

Be proud NZ:t_up:

Joshuatree
20-04-2018, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=greater fool;711901]Working for all New Zealanders..........

Great stuff, need those reviews;)

minimoke
20-04-2018, 11:05 AM
I see Helen lurking at CHOGM

Hope she is keeping an eye on Grant’s budget while on this little jauntI thought she might be keeping an eye on Jacindas Carer.

fungus pudding
20-04-2018, 11:29 AM
I thought she might be keeping an eye on Jacindas Carer.

I thought she was Jacinda's carer.

winner69
20-04-2018, 11:43 AM
I thought she was Jacinda's carer.


Helen should still be on that Times’s most influential people list then

fungus pudding
20-04-2018, 02:40 PM
Helen should still be on that Times’s most influential people list then

At least part of the chain maybe. Isn't H1's carer H2?

Joshuatree
21-04-2018, 11:21 AM
Common sense though after 9 years of National , Labour need to come in and review everything as a new CEO would in a business.

Great that we have investigative watchdog in Nicky Hagar for Daphne Project: New Zealand still a haven for some? | Radio New ... (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiyxM2kicraAhUGEbwKHfk8BPsQFghCMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.radionz.co.nz%2Fnews%2Fworld %2F355443%2Fdaphne-project-new-zealand-still-a-haven-for-some&usg=AOvVaw3CM36bTGdZkNzQ9uCGoKh3) an investigative journalist par excellence. And great that Geoffrey Palmer will be looking into the hit and run raids in afghanistan. 2 un corruptible men of the highest integrity in getting to the truth.

777
21-04-2018, 11:47 AM
Nicky Who?

fungus pudding
21-04-2018, 06:11 PM
Nicky Who?

Hagar the Horrible.

777
21-04-2018, 07:46 PM
Hagar the Horrible.

Thanks. He must be on my ignore list.

iceman
21-04-2018, 09:31 PM
Common sense though after 9 years of National , Labour need to come in and review everything as a new CEO would in a business.

Great that we have investigative watchdog in Nicky Hagar for Daphne Project: New Zealand still a haven for some? | Radio New ... (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiyxM2kicraAhUGEbwKHfk8BPsQFghCMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.radionz.co.nz%2Fnews%2Fworld %2F355443%2Fdaphne-project-new-zealand-still-a-haven-for-some&usg=AOvVaw3CM36bTGdZkNzQ9uCGoKh3) an investigative journalist par excellence. And great that Geoffrey Palmer will be looking into the hit and run raids in afghanistan. 2 un corruptible men of the highest integrity in getting to the truth.

A decent CEO looks into the business him/herself. This Government has got no internal skill so farm everything out to committees. Even you JT can see that Taxinda hasn't got what it takes !

macduffy
22-04-2018, 02:38 PM
I'm no great fan of our Oddfellows government but have to say that Megan Woods acquitted herself well on Q and A this morning. Other views welcome.

Joshuatree
23-04-2018, 09:06 AM
A decent CEO looks into the business him/herself. This Government has got no internal skill so farm everything out to committees. Even you JT can see that Taxinda hasn't got what it takes !

LOL keep it low iceman. The druggie slime from you was hilarious and predictable esp with ICE in your nick, i guess you'd know all about it ehh:cool: . Not nice when someone throws mud like that is it?. Up your game boy/girl.

fungus pudding
23-04-2018, 09:28 AM
I'm no great fan of our Oddfellows government but have to say that Megan Woods acquitted herself well on Q and A this morning. Other views welcome.

She's certainly brighter than most of her colleagues - which is not saying much, or that I agree with her very often.

minimoke
23-04-2018, 03:00 PM
Perhaps some technical people can explain this for me.

If I click on this weblink I can follow news articles https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand

But if I click on this link I get an error 404 message. Even though its pointing to TVNZ. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/absolutely-dismayed-mp-liz-craig-says-she-thought-youths-were-looked-after-labour-camp

Seems inconceivable our national news body would have broken links. Probably just as well there is a cacheing service.

Joshuatree
23-04-2018, 04:41 PM
A slight sidetrack but i think this interview with Adrian Orr our reserve bank Guv is really well worth listening, for investing, for the future and the changes coming fast.
Listenduration 35′ :04″ (https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018641349/reserve-bank-governor-adrian-orr)

minimoke
24-04-2018, 05:51 AM
A slight sidetrack but i think this interview with Adrian Orr our reserve bank Guv is really well worth listening, for investing, for the future and the changes coming fast.
Listenduration 35′ :04″ (https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018641349/reserve-bank-governor-adrian-orr)Nice try at a diversion JT. But some of us are more interested in reading about development in the old conundrum of nature vs nurture when it comes to 20 year old males.

winner69
24-04-2018, 06:07 AM
Perhaps some technical people can explain this for me.

If I click on this weblink I can follow news articles https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand

But if I click on this link I get an error 404 message. Even though its pointing to TVNZ. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/absolutely-dismayed-mp-liz-craig-says-she-thought-youths-were-looked-after-labour-camp

Seems inconceivable our national news body would have broken links. Probably just as well there is a cacheing service.

That camp never happened mini

Is Tamaki back home from his overseas jaunt yet?

minimoke
24-04-2018, 06:24 AM
That camp never happened mini?


Is Tamaki back home from his overseas jaunt yet?If you want the best, you probably cant go past the H & H Cleaning Co Ltd.

By Tamaki do you mean the guy who has tried out the fires of hell where he reckons homosexuals are off to. Or the Tamati whose got competition as a TV A Lister.

winner69
24-04-2018, 07:22 AM
If you want the best, you probably cant go past the H & H Cleaning Co Ltd.

By Tamaki do you mean the guy who has tried out the fires of hell where he reckons homosexuals are off to. Or the Tamati whose got competition as a TV A Lister.

Good one .....meant the Coffey one ......just as well spell checker didnít change that as well.

See Clarke fell for Debraís baiting hook line and sinker - and heís meant to be the fisher guy.

westerly
24-04-2018, 06:16 PM
Good one .....meant the Coffey one ......just as well spell checker didnít change that as well.

See Clarke fell for Debraís baiting hook line and sinker - and heís meant to be the fisher guy.

Latest posts from those of a persuasion more right than centre are showing signs of desperation.
Bridgy will be no doubt be feeling the eyes of those who did not desert the ship after the leadership contest right on the centre of his back.

westerly

iceman
25-04-2018, 08:23 AM
Latest posts from those of a persuasion more right than centre are showing signs of desperation.
Bridgy will be no doubt be feeling the eyes of those who did not desert the ship after the leadership contest right on the centre of his back.

westerly

I think minimoke has raised an interesting issue about negative news about Labour disappearing, not being reported or judges assisting with name suppressions. That's not desperation, just a matter of fact.

minimoke
25-04-2018, 12:37 PM
I think minimoke has raised an interesting issue about negative news about Labour disappearing, not being reported or judges assisting with name suppressions. That's not desperation, just a matter of fact.Given the Minister of Broadcasting meddling inappropriately with state radio it is extremely disturbing to see state television with a broken link to a topical news item involving a member of Government

minimoke
25-04-2018, 12:56 PM
Perhaps someone could explain why Clarke Gayford needs a Diplomatic Passport to visit Australia, the Pacific Island and the UK. Surely in these visa free countries his NZ passport should be all that is required. I thought diplomatic passports got issued to diplomats, top ranking government officials and diplomatic couriers. When travelling do his bags get searched and sniffed like every other spouse or do government official spouses get special treatment?

fungus pudding
25-04-2018, 01:10 PM
Given the Minister of Broadcasting meddling inappropriately with state radio it is extremely disturbing to see state television with a broken link to a topical news item involving a member of Government

Which minister?

minimoke
25-04-2018, 01:13 PM
Which minister?Clare Curran (Labour) having a "chance encounter" with Carol Hirschfeld - despite the txt messaging beforehand and diary entry. And then subsequent encouragement of the CEO not to attend a Select Committee meeting.

minimoke
25-04-2018, 01:29 PM
Which minister?

Or do you mean the TVone news link that has disappeared? - that was MP Liz Craig. Shes new so got to do a Maiden Speech when she entered parliament.

winner69
27-04-2018, 12:50 PM
Net migration still tracking around 70,000 odd per year

Labour and Winston seem very quiet on the subject these days ....hmm

macduffy
27-04-2018, 01:51 PM
I heard that Govt and Auckland Council have a grand ten year plan to improve Auckland's transport infrastructure. I thought I heard that it's to be part funded on a Public/Private partnership basis but must have got that wrong - Labour doesn't believe in PPP's.

;)

iceman
28-04-2018, 07:39 AM
I heard that Govt and Auckland Council have a grand ten year plan to improve Auckland's transport infrastructure. I thought I heard that it's to be part funded on a Public/Private partnership basis but must have got that wrong - Labour doesn't believe in PPP's.

;)

That's clever. And then introduce "value capture" tax on everyone in the vicinity of the new infrastructure :-)

winner69
28-04-2018, 08:45 AM
That's clever. And then introduce "value capture" tax on everyone in the vicinity of the new infrastructure :-)

I see one cool idea is to put a special levy on imported petrol engine cars and use the money to encourage the purchase of electric cars by giving purchasers a rebate

Seems like the not so well off will be subsidising the more affluent ....cool

minimoke
28-04-2018, 10:02 AM
I see one cool idea is to put a special levy on 8mported petrol engine cars and use the money to encourage the purchase of electric cars by giving purchasers a rebate

Seems like the not so well off will be subsidising the more affluent ....coolIts how the rich get richer. Credit where it is due though. It is consistent with poor people subsidising the wealthy through the proposed fuel tax as well as continuing the exemption from Road User charges. Ultimately what we will end up with is the Greens jumping from their EV's to their bikes and not contributing a cent towards the roads they travel on.

minimoke
30-04-2018, 03:51 PM
Hmm. No reduced GP visit costs. Another promise gone.

winner69
30-04-2018, 03:55 PM
Hmm. No reduced GP visit costs. Another promise gone.

bugger

just as well too late to cancel the power subsidy ..... first payment soon I think

blackcap
30-04-2018, 04:10 PM
What a clusterfcuk this govt is. An email from BP gets leaked. Energiser Bunny calls BP to the Parliament to explain. Com com comes out and says no problem, nothing illegal going on here. Naive and inept spring to mind.

minimoke
30-04-2018, 04:18 PM
What a clusterfcuk this govt is. An email from BP gets leaked. Energiser Bunny calls BP to the Parliament to explain. Com com comes out and says no problem, nothing illegal going on here. Naive and inept spring to mind.
Well, bvgger me Who would ever have thought a company would have a pricing strategy. I wonder what on earth else they are up to - may be advertising strategies, maybe hedging strategies. The mind boggles.

fungus pudding
01-05-2018, 05:14 AM
Well done Labour for levelling the playing field on GST by adding to all online purchases. Long overdue.

minimoke
01-05-2018, 06:10 AM
Well done Labour for levelling the playing field on GST by adding to all online purchases. Long overdue.Only if we get Consumer Guarantees Act warranty on purchases as well.

iceman
01-05-2018, 07:02 AM
Well done Labour for levelling the playing field on GST by adding to all online purchases. Long overdue.

Agree this levels the playing field if applied to all goods, as it should be. But one has to wonder how long Labour will get away with introducing all these extra taxes when they've said they will not introduce any new taxes this term ! They are also flat out backtracking on clear election promises such as doctors fees reducing, scrambling to fill the fiscal hole Steven Joyce told them about

fungus pudding
01-05-2018, 07:15 AM
Agree this levels the playing field if applied to all goods, as it should be. But one has to wonder how long Labour will get away with introducing all these extra taxes when they've said they will not introduce any new taxes this term ! They are also flat out backtracking on clear election promises such as doctors fees reducing, scrambling to fill the fiscal hole Steven Joyce told them about

Yes they are, but I wouldn't call GST a new tax. It's just fixing an anomoly, which admittedly will throw a couple of buckets of fill into the 11 billion hole.

iceman
01-05-2018, 07:26 AM
Yes they are, but I wouldn't call GST a new tax. It's just fixing an anomoly, which admittedly will throw a couple of buckets of fill into the 11 billion hole.

I agree FP but you tell that to the millennials that do nearly all their shopping online !! Not sure they'll agree.

minimoke
01-05-2018, 07:57 AM
Yes they are, but I wouldn't call GST a new tax. It's just fixing an anomoly, which admittedly will throw a couple of buckets of fill into the 11 billion hole.Im not sure what the anomaly is. GST has traditionally been applied for goods and services purchased and enjoyed locally. Now it seems it is being applied to goods purchased off shore and enjoyed locally. Should I now be paying GST on things I purchase overseas when I am on an overseas holiday or travel?

BlackPeter
01-05-2018, 08:53 AM
Well done Labour for levelling the playing field on GST by adding to all online purchases. Long overdue.

Lets wait until we see the details. I guess I don't mind paying GST on oversees purchases as long as

a) they don't hit me in addition with a huge collection fee (as they do these days with all purchases above the tax-free limit) and
b) I get at the same time a refund of overseas applied GST (otherwise I pay twice) and
c) The cost for collecting the additional taxes is less than the additional taxes they collect, otherwise the whole exercise is pretty pointless - isn't it?

Sort of doubt they manage to be fair and reasonable ... probably just another scheme to employ more useless and expensive bureaucrats and make life overall more expensive in New Zealand. Don't hold my breath.

blackcap
01-05-2018, 09:04 AM
Lets wait until we see the details. I guess I don't mind paying GST on oversees purchases as long as


c) The cost for collecting the additional taxes is less than the additional taxes they collect, otherwise the whole exercise is pretty pointless - isn't it?

.

Your point c is the interesting one. No way in hell are they going to collect more GST than it is going to cost them. How to make overseas shops/suppliers/vendors GST compliant and registered is going to be a nightmare.

iceman
01-05-2018, 11:22 AM
Lets wait until we see the details. I guess I don't mind paying GST on oversees purchases as long as

a) they don't hit me in addition with a huge collection fee (as they do these days with all purchases above the tax-free limit) and
b) I get at the same time a refund of overseas applied GST (otherwise I pay twice) and
c) The cost for collecting the additional taxes is less than the additional taxes they collect, otherwise the whole exercise is pretty pointless - isn't it?

Sort of doubt they manage to be fair and reasonable ... probably just another scheme to employ more useless and expensive bureaucrats and make life overall more expensive in New Zealand. Don't hold my breath.

If I remember correctly, that was the reason the last Government set the limit for goods worth $400 or more. The advice was that it may cost more than it would collect to introduce it on lower value goods.

macduffy
01-05-2018, 12:29 PM
Your point c is the interesting one. No way in hell are they going to collect more GST than it is going to cost them. How to make overseas shops/suppliers/vendors GST compliant and registered is going to be a nightmare.

I heard it described by a taxation commentator this morning as "quasi voluntary". I think I know what that means!

winner69
01-05-2018, 01:52 PM
Quite a coup for our boy Bill

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/8e1e9bdd/former-pm-bill-english-join-wesfarmers-board-in-life-after-politics.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Former%20PM%20Bill%20English%20join%2 0Wesfarmers%20board%20in%20life%20after%20politics&utm_content=Former%20PM%20Bill%20English%20join%20 Wesfarmers%20board%20in%20life%20after%20politics+ CID_0cac29978ed17e1c117e9bcce9429cf6&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=httpwwwsharechatconzarticle8e1e9bddformer-pm-bill-english-join-wesfarmers-board-in-life-after-politicshtml

jonu
01-05-2018, 02:14 PM
Quite a coup for our boy John

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/8e1e9bdd/former-pm-bill-english-join-wesfarmers-board-in-life-after-politics.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Former%20PM%20Bill%20English%20join%2 0Wesfarmers%20board%20in%20life%20after%20politics&utm_content=Former%20PM%20Bill%20English%20join%20 Wesfarmers%20board%20in%20life%20after%20politics+ CID_0cac29978ed17e1c117e9bcce9429cf6&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=httpwwwsharechatconzarticle8e1e9bddformer-pm-bill-english-join-wesfarmers-board-in-life-after-politicshtml

Don't you mean Bill?

winner69
01-05-2018, 02:22 PM
Don't you mean Bill?

My bad ...so excited I got carried away

westerly
01-05-2018, 06:16 PM
If I remember correctly, that was the reason the last Government set the limit for goods worth $400 or more. The advice was that it may cost more than it would collect to introduce it on lower value goods.

"Goods mailed into NZ may be subject to import duty. Import duties are calculated on the Customs value of the goods in New Zealand dollars. The goods may also be subject to Goods and Services Tax (GST) of 15%, based on the Customs value of the goods, and including the duty (if any) and postal/courier charges.Aug 31, 2017 "

NZ retailers will be happy, Probably won't make a big difference to on line shopping.

westerly

Baa_Baa
01-05-2018, 06:24 PM
I heard it described by a taxation commentator this morning as "quasi voluntary". I think I know what that means!

There is no international jurisdiction that can compel a foreign online retailer to comply with NZ's GST 'law'. The whole scheme will be voluntary, and the scale and scope of online retailers worldwide (incomprehensibly vast) would suggest that there is no hope in hell that the GST net could be cast wide enough to make wit of difference to 'levelling the playing field'. What a joke, a waste of time and money, a compliance nightmare, and totally unenforceable.

minimoke
01-05-2018, 06:38 PM
When I buy it gets sent to a US address and shipped to NZ from there.

Baa_Baa
01-05-2018, 08:24 PM
When I buy it gets sent to a US address and shipped to NZ from there.

When I buy it usually gets shipped free of charge direct to my NZ address, all the way from China. Arrives in 7-10 days (on average) at massive discount to retail NZ, with complete transparency on the shipping/delivery process (as good as Apple tracking for those who have enjoyed that experience) - tracked online. Totally reliable so far in my experience.

Here's a recent example:

Windscreen wipers for my motor.
- $NZ127 each from my local mechanic. Screw that.
- $NZ44.99 each from Supercheap Auto. Screw that too!
- $US13 for both wipers from AliExpress, expertly packaged, arrives in 7-10 days, free shipping.

Wake up NZ. There's a whole world of online retail competition out there that makes us local yokels look like fools paying landed goods plus marked up prices from destination, or (sadly) even local online retail, when the source is supplying at massive discount, direct with no freight charges, with no restriction on volume orders (i.e. buy one or a few ,000 or a million if you want) , with reasonable delivery times and NO GST.

You think these online retailers are going to voluntarily collect NZ GST on every purchase and pay that back to the NZ IRD? Lol, good luck on that ... let alone the zillions of other online retailers worldwide who frankly don't give a sh1t about NZ tax laws and certainly won't voluntarily be a tax collector for the NZ government .. because they don't have to, don't want to and don't need to.

This online GST collection idea is the worst example or poorly thought out legislation that I'm aware of. Labour are clutching at straws trying to raise a few paltry millions of tax revenue while demonstrating their complete and utter ignorance of global ecommerce trade or cross-border legislative rights (they have none) to enforce them, let alone the local administrative cost of trying to impose and administer these non-enforceable compliance regulations.

Goodness gracious, this is such fallacious ignorance, it beggars belief that a millennium led government would even begin to consider it viable, workable or implementable ... let alone the ignorant proposition that international online retailers (worldwide) could be swept into the net of compliance, invest in making their systems accomodate NZ law, ... and pay that GST collection back to the NZ IRD. Good grief, what is Labour thinking! I don't care what government makes these stupid ill-informed decisions, it's just madness.

This is a globally embarrassing and ignorant episode from the Labour government, ill thought out, unimplementable, and totally unenforceable.

Joshuatree
01-05-2018, 09:04 PM
GREAT STUFF!
Retail NZ welcoming this

Unity Books"Today's announcement's absolutely outstanding news for the whole of the retail sector in New Zealand."

"Retail New Zealand public affairs manager Greg Harford told Morning Report the announcement would be "very good news indeed for the sector".

National not opposing this.

"Levelling the playing field is certainly not a silver bullet for the retail industry in New Zealand but it will of course take away a competitive disadvantage that had long been faced by Kiwi retailers" - Retail New Zealand public affairs manager Greg Harfordduration 4′ :16″ (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018642910/govt-to-announce-amazon-tax)

fungus pudding
01-05-2018, 09:26 PM
A former Labour MP's thoughts on the current Govt.

https://www.noted.co.nz/currently/profiles/michael-bassett-has-harsh-words-for-jacinda-ardern-government/

Vagabond47
01-05-2018, 10:36 PM
You think these online retailers are going to voluntarily collect NZ GST on every purchase and pay that back to the NZ IRD? Lol, good luck on that ... let alone the zillions of other online retailers worldwide who frankly don't give a sh1t about NZ tax laws and certainly won't voluntarily be a tax collector for the NZ government .. because they don't have to, don't want to and don't need to.



Then their packages get stopped at the border till the customer coughs up the GST and no doubt an extortionate processing fee. Can't see that being great for customer satisfaction. Or sent back if the importer (the customer) refuses to pay the GST as happened with the swedes when they put VAT on lower value packages.

It'll be up to these companies whether they decide to collect the GST and pass it on, or simply to stop sending stuff to NZ customers if the hassle of dealing with customs or customers becomes too great. If they send enough to NZ it might be worth their while to setup online GST.

minimoke
02-05-2018, 06:03 AM
GREAT STUFF!
Retail NZ welcoming this

Unity Books"Today's announcement's absolutely outstanding news for the whole of the retail sector in New Zealand."

"Retail New Zealand public affairs manager Greg Harford told Morning Report the announcement would be "very good news indeed for the sector".

National not opposing this.

"Levelling the playing field is certainly not a silver bullet for the retail industry in New Zealand but it will of course take away a competitive disadvantage that had long been faced by Kiwi retailers" - Retail New Zealand public affairs manager Greg Harfordduration 4′ :16″ (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018642910/govt-to-announce-amazon-tax)
Sad excuse for a way of propping up an industry that doesnt know how to sell.

BlackPeter
02-05-2018, 08:16 AM
Sad excuse for a way of propping up an industry that doesnt know how to sell.

Typical Labour: Punish the performers and reward (subsidize) the non-performers. No surprises here ...

minimoke
02-05-2018, 10:00 AM
So whats going to happen with Labours "Negative Gearing" policy. Seems to me there are quite a few Mom and Pop investors who are negatively geared (expenses exceed income) today so as to provide a income for the future. And you also have people with larger portfolios who are likely to be positively geared over their entire property portfolio.

Sp the mom and pops, loosing the tax calculation will have to cover the difference themselves. Or they will put rents up. Or they will have to sell up. In which case there will be a minor surge on the property supply side which may see property values decrease. Given the houses are likely not "affordable" the positively geared owners will buy up these properties, reducing competitions and driving up rents. Thats short term.

Medium term rents will go up faster than wages so govt will need to increase Working For Family, Accommodation Supplement or Minimum wage.

As government payments increase at a faster rate than the negative gearing offset taxes will have to rise or government services will need to increase. Increase in minimum wage will see employers mover more to automation which will see les employment amongst renteers.

Long term current negatively geared property owners wont have the retirement income they planned, leaving a shortfall which will see them voting for a Government that increase the pension.

But on the bright side. Proper investment wont be such an attractive option. So those with cash will look for alternative investments. The Share Market being an obvious choice. Increased demand will see an increase in share prices. Given I am out of rentals and more into stocks I think I will have to support this policy. My shares will increase in value and by the time I retire I'll get a bigger penison. Win / Win as far as I can see.

fungus pudding
02-05-2018, 10:06 AM
So whats going to happen with Labours "Negative Gearing" policy. Seems to me there are quite a few Mom and Pop investors who are negatively geared (expenses exceed income) today so as to provide a income for the future. And you also have people with larger portfolios who are likely to be positively geared over their entire property portfolio.

Sp the mom and pops, loosing the tax calculation will have to cover the difference themselves. Or they will put rents up. Or they will have to sell up. In which case there will be a minor surge on the property supply side which may see property values decrease. Given the houses are likely not "affordable" the positively geared owners will buy up these properties, reducing competitions and driving up rents. Thats short term.

Medium term rents will go up faster than wages so govt will need to increase Working For Family, Accommodation Supplement or Minimum wage.

As government payments increase at a faster rate than the negative gearing offset taxes will have to rise or government services will need to increase. Increase in minimum wage will see employers mover more to automation which will see les employment amongst renteers.

Long term current negatively geared property owners wont have the retirement income they planned, leaving a shortfall which will see them voting for a Government that increase the pension.

But on the bright side. Proper investment wont be such an attractive option. So those with cash will look for alternative investments. The Share Market being an obvious choice. Increased demand will see an increase in share prices. Given I am out of rentals and more into stocks I think I will have to support this policy. My shares will increase in value and by the time I retire I'll get a bigger penison. Win / Win as far as I can see.

I'm not sure how anyone can pay tax on money they haven't made. To disallow amalgamation of profits and losses goes against normal accounting practice.

777
02-05-2018, 10:16 AM
I'm not sure how anyone can pay tax on money they haven't made. To disallow amalgamation of profits and losses goes against normal accounting practice.

Just means carrying your losses forward to future years. Should have been done years ago.

minimoke
02-05-2018, 10:48 AM
Just means carrying your losses forward to future years. Should have been done years ago.Assuming a Mom and Pop doesn't mind carrying a loss (not me - I like profit and don't mind paying my tax on it), how are they going to recoup these losses?

777
02-05-2018, 11:13 AM
Your investment should stand on it's own merit. It should be able to show it is going to make a profit going forward. When that happens then you write off your losses against those profits and then start paying tax from that point on. If it doesn't then why should you get to be able to write off losses against your other income?

fungus pudding
02-05-2018, 11:20 AM
Your investment should stand on it's own merit. It should be able to show it is going to make a profit going forward. When that happens then you write off your losses against those profits and then start paying tax from that point on. If it doesn't then why should you get to be able to write off losses against your other income?

Because businesses pay tax on profit - not turnover.

777
02-05-2018, 11:30 AM
Because businesses pay tax on profit - not turnover.

Where does my post say anything about turnover?

It is all about "negative gearing".

minimoke
02-05-2018, 11:34 AM
Your investment should stand on it's own merit. If investments were to stand on their own merit there would no innovation or development. Sometimes you just have to take an educated punt and put your money where you think its going to get the best overall return.


If it doesn't then why should you get to be able to write off losses against your other income? . Because that's how business and accounting works. Income - expenses incurred = profit / loss. And tax gets paid on profit.

777
02-05-2018, 11:36 AM
If investments were to stand on their own merit there would no innovation or development. Sometimes you just have to take an educated punt and put your money where you think its going to get the best overall return.

Because that's how business and accounting works. Income - expenses incurred = profit / loss. And tax gets paid on profit.

Do you know what "negative income" is?

minimoke
02-05-2018, 11:39 AM
Do you know what "negative income" is?
You mean a "loss"?

777
02-05-2018, 11:44 AM
You mean a "loss"?

No. It is the writing off that loss against other income such as salary.

minimoke
02-05-2018, 12:02 PM
No. It is the writing off that loss against other income such as salary.You dont write off losses, as such. You write off value of an asset when required. You incur expenses, and if they are greater than income then you have a loss. The loss isn't written off, it just is. No one likes a loss.

Its not hard. Salary plus rent (Income) less expences (rates / insurance/ interest etc) = profit or loss. As mentioned earlier you pay tax on profit. With an accountants help you can carry that loss through to future years so really isn't written off. It keeps living until finally accounted for.

(Best we get Beagle sniffing around here - he can be more precise on accounting treatment.)

777
02-05-2018, 12:12 PM
Simply I do not accept that a loss incurred on an investment in property should be deducted from a salary to give you a tax refund.

minimoke
02-05-2018, 12:24 PM
Simply I do not accept that a loss incurred on an investment in property should be deducted from a salary to give you a tax refund.You may not accept it. But I think you are confusing "expense" with "Loss"

Surely a person is entitled to do whatever they can to earn an income. If they have skills and time they can sell those to someone for a wage or salary. If they are prepared to take a risk to house some people in return for rent then surely good on them. Can you accept that sometimes expenses are incurred in generating an income? Why would you want people who earn less (income less expenses incurred in generating that income) to pay more tax than those who actually earn more.

Given the apparent housing crisis shouldn't we be doing all we can to encourage people into property that can be rented to people?

minimoke
02-05-2018, 12:31 PM
Rumours. What rumours? https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/103551431/clarke-gayford-rumours-dirty-politics--jacinda-ardern

777
02-05-2018, 12:49 PM
You may not accept it. But I think you are confusing "expense" with "Loss"

Surely a person is entitled to do whatever they can to earn an income. If they have skills and time they can sell those to someone for a wage or salary. If they are prepared to take a risk to house some people in return for rent then surely good on them. Can you accept that sometimes expenses are incurred in generating an income? Why would you want people who earn less (income less expenses incurred in generating that income) to pay more tax than those who actually earn more.

Given the apparent housing crisis shouldn't we be doing all we can to encourage people into property that can be rented to people?


A loss is when expenses exceed revenue. I am not stupid.

If you buy a rental property and it makes a loss of $10,000 per year simply because the rent you get could not cover your expenses. That $10,000 loss if added to your salary gives you a tax refund of $3300 assuming your marginal rate is 33c/$. Five years down the road you decide to sell as you find that the rent will never exceed expenses, which you knew anyway because of the big mortgage you took out when you bought. You walk away with some sort of capital gain which hopefully will cover what your losses were but the tax you didn't pay, $16,500, is a gift to you at the expense of all other tax payers. That is not acceptable.

minimoke
02-05-2018, 01:05 PM
A loss is when expenses exceed revenue. I am not stupid.

If you buy a rental property and it makes a loss of $10,000 per year simply because the rent you get could not cover your expenses. That $10,000 loss if added to your salary gives you a tax refund of $3300 assuming your marginal rate is 33c/$. Five years down the road you decide to sell as you find that the rent will never exceed expenses, which you knew anyway because of the big mortgage you took out when you bought. You walk away with some sort of capital gain which hopefully will cover what your losses were but the tax you didn't pay, $16,500, is a gift to you at the expense of all other tax payers. That is not acceptable.Capital Gains tax should not be confused with Negative Gearing Tax. Two very different conversations. But if Jacina wants to bring in a new tax when she said she wouldn't, so be it.

Edit. Is it acceptable for a person to keep the capital gain if they pay their Negative Gearing tax?

777
02-05-2018, 01:57 PM
Capital Gains tax should not be confused with Negative Gearing Tax. Two very different conversations. But if Jacina wants to bring in a new tax when she said she wouldn't, so be it.

Edit. Is it acceptable for a person to keep the capital gain if they pay their Negative Gearing tax?

Well under the present system the answer is probably yes but capital gains tax is a whole new thing.I just presented it as to what actually happens now to show the effects of tax saved under negative gearing.

Personally I am not in favour of a capital gains tax.

artemis
02-05-2018, 03:44 PM
Then their packages get stopped at the border till the customer coughs up the GST and no doubt an extortionate processing fee. Can't see that being great for customer satisfaction. Or sent back if the importer (the customer) refuses to pay the GST as happened with the swedes when they put VAT on lower value packages.

It'll be up to these companies whether they decide to collect the GST and pass it on, or simply to stop sending stuff to NZ customers if the hassle of dealing with customs or customers becomes too great. If they send enough to NZ it might be worth their while to setup online GST.

The big players already have systems set up to apply sales tax, charge the buyer and remit to IRD. Australia's requirement starts in a couple of months so NZ will be a doddle next year.

This government is beginning to add hassle, compliance and cost to vast swathes of the population. Most are small bites but after the first few people will be taking notice, even if the impact on their back pockets is not huge. Death by 10 or 12 cuts? Or should that be shower heads and light bulbs.

artemis
02-05-2018, 03:54 PM
Simply I do not accept that a loss incurred on an investment in property should be deducted from a salary to give you a tax refund.

What about a sole trader's investment in a start up business alongside other income? Need not be salary, could just as well be dividends. The investment could be any sort of capital expenditure including commercial property. Should that be treated differently to someone with a residential rental? If so, why?

fungus pudding
02-05-2018, 04:09 PM
What about a sole trader's investment in a start up business alongside other income? Need not be salary, could just as well be dividends. The investment could be any sort of capital expenditure including commercial property. Should that be treated differently to someone with a residential rental? If so, why?

What about a service station that loses money on its workshop, but makes a buck on the forecourt? Or a thousand other examples where people derive income from different sources.

777
02-05-2018, 04:18 PM
What about a sole trader's investment in a start up business alongside other income? Need not be salary, could just as well be dividends. The investment could be any sort of capital expenditure including commercial property. Should that be treated differently to someone with a residential rental? If so, why?

No. It should be treated the same.

777
02-05-2018, 04:21 PM
What about a service station that loses money on its workshop, but makes a buck on the forecourt? Or a thousand other examples where people derive income from different sources.

If they are different business's then no.

artemis
02-05-2018, 04:36 PM
No. It should be treated the same.

It won't be under the ring fencing proposal. It only applies to residential rental properties. Probable consequences -

- owners will sell up before ring fencing comes in
- the rental pool will shrink, maybe a lot, rents will go up, excellent tenants will be fine, others will swell the waiting list for emergency / state housing
- the much discussed first home buyers will be no more able to buy than they are now, even if prices drop a bit
- owners that stay in the market and run at a loss for the time being will minimise expenses, including deferring maintenance where they can
- owners carrying a tax loss will not sell until they have used up the tax losses
- the current government will get a windfall, future governments the liability.

What did I miss?

fungus pudding
02-05-2018, 05:11 PM
Rumours. What rumours? https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/103551431/clarke-gayford-rumours-dirty-politics--jacinda-ardern

I don't know. But the whole thing is right up Winston's alley. He's managed to pin rhe rumour on National without actually naming them. Vintage Winnie.

minimoke
03-05-2018, 08:22 AM
I don't know. But the whole thing is right up Winston's alley. He's managed to pin the rumour on National without actually naming them. Vintage Winnie.There are actually several rumours circulating at the moment. Last time I looked, rumours are just rumours but if they they are defamatory then that is a civil matter not a police matter. So now we have the police stepping into a civil matter involving a person tied to the labour party - that is simply wrong. (and all they have done is settle the criminal aspects of the rumours - not the other rumours. So not overly helpful).

Im sure political parties must have a manual on how to manage rumours and that it doesn't involving the police because that is a constitutional breach by mixing the separate powers of the Judiciary with the Executive. Its about time Labour caught up with the rules of being in government.

jonu
03-05-2018, 09:19 AM
There are actually several rumours circulating at the moment. Last time I looked, rumours are just rumours but if they they are defamatory then that is a civil matter not a police matter. So now we have the police stepping into a civil matter involving a person tied to the labour party - that is simply wrong. (and all they have done is settle the criminal aspects of the rumours - not the other rumours. So not overly helpful).

Im sure political parties must have a manual on how to manage rumours and that it doesn't involving the police because that is a constitutional breach by mixing the separate powers of the Judiciary with the Executive. Its about time Labour caught up with the rules of being in government.

I'm not privy to the rumours, although I did see someone allude to them on this site at some stage.

If the rumours said he was under police investigation then I have no problem with the police making a statement to the contrary in the circumstances. If the rumours involved only civil matters then I agree fully with you Minimoke

fungus pudding
03-05-2018, 09:31 AM
I'm not privy to the rumours, although I did see someone allude to them on this site at some stage.

If the rumours said he was under police investigation then I have no problem with the police making a statement to the contrary in the circumstances. If the rumours involved only civil matters then I agree fully with you Minimoke

One of the rumours are that he was under police investigation according to the police statement denying they were involved with any such investigation. I have no idea what any other rumours were - nor do I care.

minimoke
03-05-2018, 09:47 AM
All this is a very nice distraction from something that isn't a rumour - and that is the sexual assaults at the Labour Camp. Loads of rumours circulating about that event. Rumours the police are silent on and rumours that will be silenced once the Labour Party Investigation is published - its taking a while!

fungus pudding
03-05-2018, 11:16 AM
All this is a very nice distraction from something that isn't a rumour - and that is the sexual assaults at the Labour Camp. Loads of rumours circulating about that event. Rumours the police are silent on and rumours that will be silenced once the Labour Party Investigation is published - its taking a while!

That's a really interesting one. Whodunnit?

minimoke
03-05-2018, 11:32 AM
That's a really interesting one. Whodunnit?Now here's a conundrum. There are two main rumours. The person who did the Kiddy Fiddling (and that persons parent) and the person who supplied the alcohol. The police have not issued a statement saying these people are not involved in any investigation - so does that mean the rumours are true?

winner69
04-05-2018, 02:43 PM
Makes a good story but from all accounts nothing new and still no indication of what they are atually going to do ....plenty of buzzwords and slogans and a bit of ra ra

Probably a winter or two of discontent coming up

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/103635252/jacinda-ardern-addresses-the-elephant-in-the-room

minimoke
04-05-2018, 03:03 PM
Makes a good story but from all accounts nothing new and still no indication of what they are atually going to do ....plenty of buzzwords and slogans and a bit of ra ra

Probably a winter or two of discontent coming up

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/103635252/jacinda-ardern-addresses-the-elephant-in-the-roomBusiness will do what busines does. And that is get on with things in the environment it finds itself. It cant rely on government - eg Govt cant even get NZ on the exemption list for US steel tariffs. And they are supposed to be our mates. At some point Minimum wage will go up so high people will be laid off. As NZ is increasing unable to meet contractual obligations due to strike action then contracts will be lost. Getting rid of the 90 day trial will see less vulnerable people in work. Industry bargaining will put increased focus on non-productive activity. Taxes obviously have to go up to pay for over promised spending. And the Public Service will celebrate more jobs.

westerly
04-05-2018, 05:21 PM
I don't know. But the whole thing is right up Winston's alley. He's managed to pin rhe rumour on National without actually naming them. Vintage Winnie.

Would Labour supporters spread rumours to the detriment of Labour ? Or would it be as Winston implies the more "anything but the left " hardliners from further right of the political spectrum?
"Dirty Politics" exposed the extent some are prepared to go to achieve their political goals.
As you say in a later post - "I have no idea what any other rumours were - nor do I care. "
How ever, others on this site are quite happy to spread rumour and gossip.

westerly