Labour / NZ First Government

[westerly]

Lets dissect it for a moment:
- When have teh police ever front footed a civil matter of rumour (defamation) to say an individual is not under police investigation? (I reckon never)
-police take 4 months to commence laying charges against a person known to them from day one of teh investigation where every one (except teh accused potentially) says the offences happen. It didn't take them 4 months less a week before PM stepped into maternity leave or four months plus a week after PM had retuned from hospital.
- Govt owned air NZ just happens to have a "Government relations" job going and out of all teh applicants (including ex national MP's ) he just happened to secure it on teh eve of a police announcement
- First lady has her baby and is kept under guard for three days at hospital after no apparent complications with teh birth and plenty of family and public support and then announces name of baby just before police announcement.

I suppose you still believe out of al teh people who knew the PM had the day before attended a Labour event which resulted in four separate alleged sexual assaults, under age drinking and kids so crook they were still puking the next day and no-one, not one single person thought to mention it straight away to the PM

The police have stated they were getting so many inquiries from the media, they took the unusual step of publicly saying they were not investigating your first man.
Why is there not a media frenzy from the generally right favouring media if there is any truth in your
allegations? Why has Judith not been emailed?
Be carefull, you may have the SIS, Nicky Hager, and the armed offenders all arriving on your doorstep.All together. Only joking :)

westerly

[winner69]

Guru Mark from Craig’s comments on business survey ....but no worries because David Parker says the survey is a load of crap

Mark Lister (@MarkListerNZ)
27/06/18, 4:24 PM
OK. So business confidence has now been negative for nine consecutive months, the longest stretch in more than a decade. I’m not sure the government can ignore this for much longer. Policy uncertainty is clearly a key factor, and it doesn’t bode well for growth.

[Joshuatree]

Pay rises and about time , good for all those people swimming to stay afloat, or walking the treadmill to cover their costs of living and pay the rent/ mortgage. Ultimately a win /win/win for us all.

[minimoke]

Pay rises and about time , good for all those people swimming to stay afloat, or walking the treadmill to cover their costs of living and pay the rent/ mortgage. Ultimately a win /win/win for us all.Hopefully we will see an improvement in productivity to reflect the higher pay.

Hands up anyone who will notice IRD or MBIE on strike?

[winner69]

Twyford still arguing fuel tax is not a regressive tax

He just doesn’t get many things

[macduffy]

Hopefully we will see an improvement in productivity to reflect the higher pay.

Hands up anyone who will notice IRD or MBIE on strike?

I'll take notice - if my tax refund doesn't come through!

[minimoke]

I'll take notice - if my tax refund doesn't come through!
On reflection, and after completing my return I find I owe them. So they can strike as long as they like.

[minimoke]

"No new taxes" (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96852721/read-my-lips-no-new-taxes-says-labour) isnt tha thow it went? so now another petrol tax for everyone to enjoy is coming up. Good one labour. Twyford now says "There will be three increases in petrol excise duty of 3.5 cents a litre from 30 September, and equivalent increases in road user charges from October 1, and further 3.5 cent increases in 2019 and 2020.

"This will cost the average family 83 cents a week this year, rising to $2.50 a week by 2020."


I better go out and buy a more economical car!

[macduffy]

Yes, no need for new taxes when there's plenty of existing ones to increase!

[craic]

Last Thursday I tried to enter my IRD return to enter dividend that would radically affect my return and result in a significant rebate for me. Finally I telephoned IRD and persisted 'till I got a real person. He got the numbers from me, worked it out and told me the amount I could expect to receive in my A/C by "Wednesday of next week". The money was in my account by Friday, the next day. I've always had great service from IRD.

[craic]

Ever noticed? Traffic here dies on Fridays. Nothing to do with politics or brain functioning. I suspect that hordes of guilty posters decide to catch up on the work they have been ignoring all week - except for Aucklanders. They have their heads buried in maps, trying to figure out how they are going to get home tonight.

[elZorro]

Ever noticed? Traffic here dies on Fridays. Nothing to do with politics or brain functioning. I suspect that hordes of guilty posters decide to catch up on the work they have been ignoring all week - except for Aucklanders. They have their heads buried in maps, trying to figure out how they are going to get home tonight.

Craic, all is not lost. Even the National Party couldn't help but be impressed with increased rail traffic in Auckland, as this article shows.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/auckland/31-08-2017/twenty-million-trips-auckland-rail-has-come-a-long-way-in-a-very-short-time/

[elZorro]

Lost! You've lost your marbles. The story is dated 31 August 2017.
The picture of the train comes from an era when the Clark/Cullen gummint was
trashing the country before being tossed out, and Clark had to flee the country.

If this is the best good news story for present gummint, then the winter of discontent
will deepen.

I think you're trying to rewrite history GF, that's not what happened.

[777]

I think you're trying to rewrite history GF, that's not what happened.

I thought he/she got it exactly right.

It would be great though if all those who used the trains paid their fare.

[elZorro]

Lost! You've lost your marbles. The story is dated 31 August 2017.
The picture of the train comes from an era when the Clark/Cullen gummint was
trashing the country before being tossed out, and Clark had to flee the country.

If this is the best good news story for present gummint, then the winter of discontent
will deepen.

In answer to your post, I knew the article was an old one, but it was the first to pop up when I went looking for data on vastly increased rail passenger trips in Auckland. Kickstarted while Labour were in last time, likely to get a new big boost soon.

Did the Clark/Cullen govt trash the country? Very low unemployment, they had a dream run economically and used it to pay off almost all old Crown debt. All the while the Nats were screaming for tax refunds in the house. After the GFC hit and the voting public predictably looked for change, the Nats used up that Crown credit plus a lot more, pushing a serious taxable debt and interest costs onto the next generation of earners. They also progressively sacked a lot of crown and SOE staff, which encouraged the private sector to do the same. The Nats also stopped paying into the Cullen Fund, at precisely the time when they should have done the opposite, forgoing billions in profit for taxpayers. All this data is on the public record.

Helen Clark didn't flee the country, she applied for a very high office in the UN, and got the job. She is/was one of the world's most powerful women.

So what if there are a few strikes now and then - these are legitimate calls for a catch-up in pay rates, and any seriously useful business can afford to pay staff above the cost of living. The vast majority of changes this government has made, are in the right direction as far as I am concerned.

[fungus pudding]

In answer to your post, I knew the article was an old one, but it was the first to pop up when I went looking for data on vastly increased rail passenger trips in Auckland. Kickstarted while Labour were in last time, likely to get a new big boost soon.

Did the Clark/Cullen govt trash the country? Very low unemployment, they had a dream run economically and used it to pay off almost all old Crown debt. All the while the Nats were screaming for tax refunds in the house. After the GFC hit and the voting public predictably looked for change, the Nats used up that Crown credit plus a lot more, pushing a serious taxable debt and interest costs onto the next generation of earners. They also progressively sacked a lot of crown and SOE staff, which encouraged the private sector to do the same. The Nats also stopped paying into the Cullen Fund, at precisely the time when they should have done the opposite, forgoing billions in profit for taxpayers. All this data is on the public record.

Helen Clark didn't flee the country, she applied for a very high office in the UN, and got the job. She is/was one of the world's most powerful women.

So what if there are a few strikes now and then - these are legitimate calls for a catch-up in pay rates, and any seriously useful business can afford to pay staff above the cost of living. The vast majority of changes this government has made, are in the right direction as far as I am concerned.

You're definitely not without a sense of humour eZ.

[elZorro]

You're definitely not without a sense of humour eZ.

I will wait for you to elaborate on that FP - I thought I was being serious. If anyone's a spinner here, it's Greater Fool.

[craic]

Best possible use for trains. At Undarra in Queensland they have a heap of carriages in the bush, used as accommodation. Quite a large number of visitors can be housed. Or just south of Mahia they fill them with concrete and push them off the line in a vain attempt to prevent more erosion.

[elZorro]

Best possible use for trains. At Undarra in Queensland they have a heap of carriages in the bush, used as accommodation. Quite a large number of visitors can be housed. Or just south of Mahia they fill them with concrete and push them off the line in a vain attempt to prevent more erosion.

Would they be old carriages, past their use-by date? In that case, fine. We're talking about light rail, electrification. The Nats wanted to remove all the electric trains from the North Island trunk and pull out the gear, go back to all (Chinese made?) diesels. Because it's a bit cheaper maybe. That's the wrong direction when we're needing to reduce fossil fuel use and we have mostly hydro power generators.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87810900/Kiwirail-to-dump-electric-trains-and-replace-with-diesel-on-North-Island-main-trunk-line (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87810900/Kiwirail-to-dump-electric-trains-and-replace-with-diesel-on-North-Island-main-trunk-line)

Hamilton has just put some new double-decker buses onto their city routes, the main positive for me? They were all built up in NZ.

[777]

Hamilton has just put some new double-decker buses onto their city routes, the main positive for me? They were all built up in NZ.

Would they diesel belching ones or electric?

[elZorro]

Would they diesel belching ones or electric?

In this case they are diesel I would suspect, but at least they have some NZ content.

The coalition's view on electrification of rail. Good background.

https://www.noted.co.nz/currently/environment/kiwirail-plans-to-ditch-electric-freight-trains-the-govt-disagrees/

[Joshuatree]

Guru Mark from Craig’s comments on business survey ....but no worries because David Parker says the survey is a load of crap

Mark Lister (@MarkListerNZ)
27/06/18, 4:24 PM
OK. So business confidence has now been negative for nine consecutive months, the longest stretch in more than a decade. I’m not sure the government can ignore this for much longer. Policy uncertainty is clearly a key factor, and it doesn’t bode well for growth.


Those business confidence surveys are just a measure of political bias. The link between confidence and performance of the economy can be non existent. Amy Adams etc are doing what they do best, scaremongering and recklessly talking down the economy, desperate and dirty.

The Helen Clark Labour govt from 2000 to 2008, business was pessimistic 88 out of 99 months and the economy GREW 3.2% a year!

2009 to 2017 under National business was optimistic for 89 months(during the GFC and ChCH earthquake) and the economy grew about 2% :t_up:

Growth around 3% is continuing now.

Skilled staff is a/the major common issue and who created that eh?. labour have jim bolger taskforce on board, fees free policies,apprenticeship incentives , importing skilled labour etc

A good listen here, on National radio of course. Listenduration 16′ :12″ (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/focusonpolitics/audio/2018652563/focus-on-politics-for-6-july-2018)

[winner69]

Those business confidence surveys are just a measure of political bias. The link between confidence and performance of the economy can be non existent. Amy Adams etc are doing what they do best, scaremongering and recklessly talking down the economy, desperate and dirty.

The Helen Clark Labour govt from 2000 to 2008, business was pessimistic 88 out of 99 months and the economy GREW 3.2% a year!

2009 to 2017 under National business was optimistic for 89 months(during the GFC and ChCH earthquake) and the economy grew about 2% :t_up:

Growth around 3% is continuing now.

Skilled staff is a/the major common issue and who created that eh?. labour have jim bolger taskforce on board, fees free policies,apprenticeship incentives , importing skilled labour etc

A good listen here, on National radio of course. Listenduration 16′ :12″ (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/focusonpolitics/audio/2018652563/focus-on-politics-for-6-july-2018)

Helen might have done OK early stages but NZ was in recession late 2007 early 2008 ......during Labour’s term and pre GFC.

[Joshuatree]

If you want to be informed listen to the podcast, if not dont.

[iceman]

Helen might have done OK early stages but NZ was in recession late 2007 early 2008 ......during Labour’s term and pre GFC.

And burdened future Governments with crazy and hugely expensive middle class welfare schemes like WFF and interest free student loans, that were politically desperate measures to try to hold onto power, knowing it would be politically suicidal to try to remove. People like freebies and we the taxpayers pay for them. The Coalition Government has started down the same track and that may have something to do with lack of confidence by those that have to pay for it all.

Thankfully this is likely to be a one term Government arrangement https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/94677/greens%E2%80%99-5-polling-puts-them-precipice-oblivion-and-simmering-issues-within-party-jason

[winner69]

If you want to be informed listen to the podcast, if not dont.


I had listened to that discussion when it was on radio.


I think we both probably only hear what we want to hear but I would hazard a guess I probably hear a bit more than you do.

That quote re GDP numbers under Labour / National are a bit misleading (mischieviously so?) as they have lumbered the Labour generated recession numbers into Nationals tenure. The NZ economy did grow strongly in the early 2000's but it was driven more by the RBNZ creating a boom rather than any political policies .....and we suffered the consequences in 2006-2008 with several rate increases (a bust) leading to that recession

Maybe business confidence polls have some political bias but I doubt not to the degree some make out. I do the ANZ one for a small business I'm involved in and until recently the NZIER one for a corporate and answer as to where I genuinely think things are heading (maybe swayed by all the crap the media put out? maybe not).

Think what you will but the chart below showing the relationship between GDP and one of te questions in the NZIER business outlook surveys is pretty compelling. From a Tony Alexander report but has real numbers from NZIER and Stats NZ. No comment is really needed but no harm in reading Tony's comments
http://tonyalexander.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/WO-July-5-2018.pdf

[BlackPeter]

Cheers winner, outstanding post. Less emotion and more facts. Where is the reputation button when you need it?

[winner69]

Cheers winner, outstanding post. Less emotion and more facts. Where is the reputation button when you need it?

It’s the star shaped symbol at the bottom left of the post. Give it a go ...please

I’ve given you one

[Joshuatree]

I had listened to that discussion when it was on radio.


I think we both probably only hear what we want to hear but I would hazard a guess I probably hear a bit more than you do.

That quote re GDP numbers under Labour / National are a bit misleading (mischieviously so?) as they have lumbered the Labour generated recession numbers into Nationals tenure. The NZ economy did grow strongly in the early 2000's but it was driven more by the RBNZ creating a boom rather than any political policies .....and we suffered the consequences in 2006-2008 with several rate increases (a bust) leading to that recession

Maybe business confidence polls have some political bias but I doubt not to the degree some make out. I do the ANZ one for a small business I'm involved in and until recently the NZIER one for a corporate and answer as to where I genuinely think things are heading (maybe swayed by all the crap the media put out? maybe not).

Think what you will but the chart below showing the relationship between GDP and one of te questions in the NZIER business outlook surveys is pretty compelling. From a Tony Alexander report but has real numbers from NZIER and Stats NZ. No comment is really needed but no harm in reading Tony's comments
http://tonyalexander.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/WO-July-5-2018.pdf

Good stuff W69. Yes i agree with your 2nd line about that hazard..

[elZorro]

I had listened to that discussion when it was on radio.


I think we both probably only hear what we want to hear but I would hazard a guess I probably hear a bit more than you do.

That quote re GDP numbers under Labour / National are a bit misleading (mischieviously so?) as they have lumbered the Labour generated recession numbers into Nationals tenure. The NZ economy did grow strongly in the early 2000's but it was driven more by the RBNZ creating a boom rather than any political policies .....and we suffered the consequences in 2006-2008 with several rate increases (a bust) leading to that recession

Maybe business confidence polls have some political bias but I doubt not to the degree some make out. I do the ANZ one for a small business I'm involved in and until recently the NZIER one for a corporate and answer as to where I genuinely think things are heading (maybe swayed by all the crap the media put out? maybe not).

Think what you will but the chart below showing the relationship between GDP and one of te questions in the NZIER business outlook surveys is pretty compelling. From a Tony Alexander report but has real numbers from NZIER and Stats NZ. No comment is really needed but no harm in reading Tony's comments
http://tonyalexander.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/WO-July-5-2018.pdf

W69, how exactly did you come to the conclusion that Labour's policies led to a recession in 2007-2008? Wikipedia shows that the GFC's first indicator was in August 2007, and the Dow-Jones hit a peak in October 2007.


The first notable event signaling a possible financial crisis occurred in the United Kingdom on August 9, 2007, when BNP Paribas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNP_Paribas), citing "a complete evaporation of liquidity", blocked withdrawals from three hedge funds. The significance of this event was not immediately recognized but soon led to a panic as investors and savers attempted to liquidate assets deposited in highly leveraged financial institutions.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008#cite_note-G8512-22)

The International Monetary Fund estimated that large US and European banks lost more than $1 trillion on toxic assets and from bad loans from January 2007 to September 2009. These losses are expected to top $2.8 trillion from 2007 to 2010. US bank losses were forecast to hit $1 trillion and European bank losses will reach $1.6 trillion. The International Monetary Fund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund) (IMF) estimated in 2009 that US banks were about 60% through their losses, but British and eurozone banks only 40%.[207] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008#cite_note-207)
One of the first victims was Northern Rock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Rock), a medium-sized British bank.[208] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008#cite_note-208) The highly leveraged (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leverage_(finance)) nature of its business led the bank to request security from the Bank of England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England). This in turn led to investor panic and a bank run (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_run)[209] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008#cite_note-209) in mid-September 2007. Calls by Liberal Democrat Treasury Spokesman Vince Cable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Cable) to nationalise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalised) the institution were initially ignored; in February 2008, however, the British government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_government) (having failed to find a private sector buyer) relented, and the bank was taken into public hands. Northern Rock's problems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalisation_of_Northern_Rock) proved to be an early indication of the troubles that would soon befall other banks and financial institutions.



I also note a conservative bias in the business activity outlooks. While the opinions are about 50-50 balanced around zero, the GDP growth rarely drops below 0%. However as these collective opinions do appear to be leading the actual GDP growth chart, it's also possible that there is an element of it being a driving force, but not always a positive force.

[iceman]

Proof (as if we needed it) that NZ voters are not really ready for radical policy changes, for better or for worse https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12085868

[westerly]

I had listened to that discussion when it was on radio.


I think we both probably only hear what we want to hear but I would hazard a guess I probably hear a bit more than you do.

Think what you will but the chart below showing the relationship between GDP and one of te questions in the NZIER business outlook surveys is pretty compelling. From a Tony Alexander report but has real numbers from NZIER and Stats NZ. No comment is really needed but no harm in reading Tony's comments
http://tonyalexander.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/WO-July-5-2018.pdf

"As noted in our analysis of the ANZ’s monthly release, there is a downward bias to business sentiment when Labour are in power as businesses worry about new regulations,the lack of business sector familiarity of the MPs,
the eventual loss of fiscal bowel control, infighting by ideology-
driven people, and this time around the fragile nature of the coalition and secret deals not yet revealed to the public.
Arrogance and incompetence basically.
This means we have to be careful not to over extrapolate these results into a
dystopic economic outlook."

Quote from Alexanders weekly over view. Seems to be slightly (?} biased to me but not unexpected given he works for a bank.
The part I do agree with (which received a mention on the AIR NZ thread) was synthetic meat and milk will in the not so distant future have a significant effect on the NZ economy.

westerly

[winner69]

I always that it intriguing and somewhat ironic that in the early stages of the economic boom in the early days of Labour’s last term in the 2000s net migration went from a 10,000 outflow to a 40,000 inflow......50,000 net change in migration over a few years

[elZorro]

I always that it intriguing and somewhat ironic that in the early stages of the economic boom in the early days of Labour’s last term in the 2000s net migration went from a 10,000 outflow to a 40,000 inflow......50,000 net change in migration over a few years

Yes, as the StatsNZ article and chart shows, in Labour's last term there were three years of medium net immigration, but National's term had four years of higher net immigration than Labour's peak. So a lot more people turned up over that time period.

http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/Migration/international-travel-and-migration-articles/kiwi-factor-migration
(http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/Migration/international-travel-and-migration-articles/kiwi-factor-migration)

[777]

And a lot of those were Kiwis returning home during the GFC and a lot of kiwis not going overseas due to the world economic situation.

[BlackPeter]

Yes, as the StatsNZ article and chart shows, in Labour's last term there were three years of medium net immigration, but National's term had four years of higher net immigration than Labour's peak. So a lot more people turned up over that time period.

http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/Migration/international-travel-and-migration-articles/kiwi-factor-migration
(http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/Migration/international-travel-and-migration-articles/kiwi-factor-migration)

Isn't that a good thing if expats like to come home (as they did under National) and Kiwis stay at home instead of queuing up at the departure gates as they did under Helen Clark?

It is really sad to see Labor supporters celebrate that they get rid of our own people - just to make their poor housing policies looking a bit better.

We are nearly one year into this populist government. Just wondering - how many of the 10,000 promised additional houses per year did our government build so far?

[winner69]

Yes, as the StatsNZ article and chart shows, in Labour's last term there were three years of medium net immigration, but National's term had four years of higher net immigration than Labour's peak. So a lot more people turned up over that time period.

http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/Migration/international-travel-and-migration-articles/kiwi-factor-migration
(http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/Migration/international-travel-and-migration-articles/kiwi-factor-migration)

EZ — I wasn’t saying net migration was a good or bad thing

What I was pointing out that during the first few years of Labour’s previous tenure there was a significant increase in net migration (~50,000) and the economy roared ahead.

JTs and no doubt your view is that in the economy roared ahead under Labour because of their economic / financial management (in spite of falling business confidence) — my view is that factors like net migration and RBNZ drove that growth rather than any government policy.

I will agree with you if you say the same thing happened during Nationals tenure

[winner69]

Isn't that a good thing if expats like to come home (as they did under National) and Kiwis stay at home instead of queuing up at the departure gates as they did under Helen Clark?

It is really sad to see Labor supporters celebrate that they get rid of our own people - just to make their poor housing policies looking a bit better.

We are nearly one year into this populist government. Just wondering - how many of the 10,000 promised additional houses per year did our government build so far?

I’ve always thought it a bit sad that since the 80s every year there has been a negative net outflow of NZ citizens

From that article — Since 1986, an average of 21,600 more Kiwis have left than arrived back

So over the last 32 years that’s nearly a net 700,000 Kiwis who have deserted NZ. Just as well we allow foreigners to come to this country


Nobody seems to have explained why.

[winner69]

Communism by Stealth .... so says Hooton

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12091904

[artemis]

..... So over the last 32 years that’s nearly a net 700,000 Kiwis who have deserted NZ. Just as well we allow foreigners to come to this country

Nobody seems to have explained why.

About a third of my generation - siblings and cousins - went to Australia in their early 20s or so. About 12. None came back. All settled there and raised families.

My sister came back to NZ after her OE and tried to settle but couldn't. Mind you that was Palmerston North. Several others were also from the provinces, some rural.

Small sample but bright lights over the ditch beckoned.

[minimoke]

Communism by Stealth .... so says Hooton

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12091904Working for Families has cetrainly created a whole set of problems. Which is why the "Living Wage" movement is interesting. This will see the minimum income burden shift from governments Working for Families to employers wage bill - with no improvement in productivity.

[blackcap]

Working for Families has cetrainly created a whole set of problems. Which is why the "Living Wage" movement is interesting. This will see the minimum income burden shift from governments Working for Families to employers wage bill - with no improvement in productivity.

I see Smith City have caught the bug. That might put even more pressure on them. They are struggling to make a profit now, so with an increased wage bill see that struggle even more.

[minimoke]

I see Smith City have caught the bug. That might put even more pressure on them. They are struggling to make a profit now, so with an increased wage bill see that struggle even more.
“National furniture and appliance retailer to mark the start of its second century of trading with a commitment to the well-being of its staff; introduces 'well-being' day and grants extra day's holiday to mark centenary”

Oh, the irony. The very best thing Smith City can do to look after the well being of staff is give them long term job security. They are now undermining this by increasing wages costs, not committing anything to improved sales volumes or margins thus decreasing overall profitability. All the while peacocking this social do-gooding. Why they bother I don’t know. Average hourly rate is already $26.36 when the LivingWage is $20.55. If their sales people can’t earn $20.55 an hour through performance bonus / incentive schemes they shouldn’t be in retail sales. I'd be firing the low paid workers - not giving them more. (Disc.– thankfully not a holder of SCY!!)

Edit. SCY shoulda looked at the Warehouse Group. Introduced Career Retailer Wage back in 2013 - inspired by Living Wage. Check out the share price since then!(Hint: Value of company has approximately halved since the introduction - thats what happens when you dont have a monopoly environment like the local council or government)

[westerly]

About a third of my generation - siblings and cousins - went to Australia in their early 20s or so. About 12. None came back. All settled there and raised families.

My sister came back to NZ after her OE and tried to settle but couldn't. Mind you that was Palmerston North. Several others were also from the provinces, some rural.

Small sample but bright lights over the ditch beckoned.

When their productive working life is over they will return. NZ is a great place to retire to. Ask all the retiring immigrants from overseas.
Not sure they contribute much to the economy though.

westerly

[elZorro]

Lots of hoohah at the moment about the canned fundraising concert planned by Sir Ray Avery. I wonder if Helen Clark also knew all about the background. I've met people like this, it'll probably be all about a big payoff at the end, a company on the up that gets flicked off.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/24/164742/can-ray-avery-turn-promises-into-reality

(https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/24/164742/can-ray-avery-turn-promises-into-reality)

[fungus pudding]

Lots of hoohah at the moment about the canned fundraising concert planned by Sir Ray Avery. I wonder if Helen Clark also knew all about the background. I've met people like this, it'll probably be all about a big payoff at the end, a company on the up that gets flicked off.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/24/164742/can-ray-avery-turn-promises-into-reality

(https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/24/164742/can-ray-avery-turn-promises-into-reality)

Can't be so. Helen Clarke has never heard of Avery, doesn't know who he is - she said so.

[minimoke]

NZ Business confidence at low levels: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/business/new-zealand-tumbles-down-business-confidence-ranks/

And this was surveyed eferi the passing of legislations that makes employers pay 2 weeks leave for domestic violence; before the end of trial periods, before the introduction of compulsory agreement to a Collective Employment agreement, before the impact of "living wage" and minimum wage increases, before transportation cost increase in Auckland and before Jacinda announces her next great employment idea. I bet it will add an extra burden on employers and do nothing to boost productivity.

[777]

Just for the record.

https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/07/faces-of-the-day-83/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Joshuatree]

Are you stooping too 777?.This muck raker is the lowest of the low imo. Inform yourself and read Dirty Politics by Nicky Hagar and follow the links all the way to the National party top office in the country just a short time ago.

[777]

No. Just balancing the postings we get here from the left leaning rag your group continue to post from. For the life of me I can't remember what it is called. Must be have a small circulation.

And Nicky Hagar. I wouldn't read anything he writes. He is lower than what you think Whaleoil is. Not that I follow him that closely.

But that article proved Clark had met Avery. Photographic proof.

When I posted it I guessed you would be the first to reply. You are so predictable.

[Joshuatree]

Find the truth and the truth will set you free a simple choice for you.Live as if you only have one shot on this earth.

[777]

Find the truth and the truth will set you free a simple choice for you.Live as if you only have one shot on this earth.

I assume that that is a quote from your Hager bible.

[blackcap]

Are you stooping too 777?.This muck raker is the lowest of the low imo. Inform yourself and read Dirty Politics by Nicky Hagar and follow the links all the way to the National party top office in the country just a short time ago.

She was a liar during her tenure as PM and is still a liar today.

http://www.nzmsa.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2014-NZMSA-Conference-Bid-Example.pdf

page 6 is enough to convince me.

[iceman]

Andrew Little and Winston Peters have been interfering in Australian politics at a level never before seen from NZ Ministers. But when an ex Australian PM mentions and disagrees with Winston, he gets fired up about foreign interference. Yet another proof Winnie has totally lost it.
Then he follows up with some veiled threats against Peter Goodfellow for calling Winston what he is. Thanks goodness we will never see WP in parliament again after the next election.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12098026

[minimoke]

She was a liar during her tenure as PM and is still a liar today.

http://www.nzmsa.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2014-NZMSA-Conference-Bid-Example.pdf

page 6 is enough to convince me.She didn't particularly like Own Glen either when he tried to donate $80 - $100m for child abuse and NZ youth

[Joshuatree]

Andrew Little and Winston Peters have been interfering in Australian politics at a level never before seen from NZ Ministers. But when an ex Australian PM mentions and disagrees with Winston, he gets fired up about foreign interference. Yet another proof Winnie has totally lost it.
Then he follows up with some veiled threats against Peter Goodfellow for calling Winston what he is. Thanks goodness we will never see WP in parliament again after the next election.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12098026

They need that, goodfellow sounds like a mini me whale oil and he asked for it with a rude comment like that, typical.
Aus need to change their flag, do they really want to be confused with us, ridiculous, a flag with a Tasmanian devil on it would be perfect atp:) mean spirited and not into human rights.

I guess thats why they got old John howard, prime minister til what 2007, his fees would be cheap and he has the similar conservative behind the times beliefs, he is against marriage equality, refused to apologise to the stolen generation, and not truthful about the boat people and shafted NZ a few times, yep cheap and a fresh approach for the nats , not lol.

[Joshuatree]

I assume that that is a quote from your Hager bible.

Nope , assuming makes an ass of people.. Im still reading it . But heres a tiny taster. Whale oil guy who hacks and gets hackers to give him private info he can try and turn into mud and throw at labour,who boasts about his exploits gets hacked himself and the info sent to Hagar who presents the facts, evidence to us with names , detail all the way to some of the PM's workers. Its all there fascinating and sickening and authentic. An insiders guide to real life dirty politics.

[minimoke]

Jacinda shortly about to relieve Winston of his baubles. Good timing with their Sex Camp report due in the next week or so. I was surprised there were six charges and four victims. Sounds like Labour have empowered a real little kiddy fiddler. Continued name suppression to be decided in the next day or so - usual practice is to release name to allow other victims to report. Will be interesting to learn who supplied the booze to the underage kids.

[artemis]

Jacinda shortly about to relieve Winston of his baubles. Good timing with their Sex Camp report due in the next week or so. I was surprised there were six charges and four victims. Sounds like Labour have empowered a real little kiddy fiddler. Continued name suppression to be decided in the next day or so - usual practice is to release name to allow other victims to report. Will be interesting to learn who supplied the booze to the underage kids.

Believe the sex camp report is only about process - followed, not followed, to be followed.

The court case is sub judice.

[minimoke]

B

The court case is sub judice.The supply and consumption of alcohol to minors won't be.

I'm also waiting for Andrew Little to update their crime policy where he advocates those accused of sexual offending need to prove consent to be found innocent rather than the current standard of prosecution having to go prove guilt. He says ""But when you look at the volume of sexual violence cases and the 1 per cent of cases that result in a conviction, there is something wrong with the way we are handling sexual violation cases. The circumstances may well justify doing something radically different.""

[minimoke]

She was a liar during her tenure as PM and is still a liar today.

http://www.nzmsa.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2014-NZMSA-Conference-Bid-Example.pdf

page 6 is enough to convince me.Just to make sure we have some context. Heres the audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3SwNfONBC0

[BlackPeter]

Just to make sure we have some context. Heres the audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3SwNfONBC0

I think we need to forgive here JT & Co. They are obviously talking alternative integrity :p and don't understand anymore the difference between truth and lies.; I guess being in government with the populists is just rubbing off.

[minimoke]

NZ Business confidence at low levels: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/business/new-zealand-tumbles-down-business-confidence-ranks/

And this was surveyed before the passing of legislations that makes employers pay 2 weeks leave for domestic violence; before the end of trial periods, before the introduction of compulsory agreement to a Collective Employment agreement, before the impact of "living wage" and minimum wage increases, before transportation cost increase in Auckland and before Jacinda announces her next great employment idea. I bet it will add an extra burden on employers and do nothing to boost productivity.Seesm ANZ has the same view : https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/105892607/anz-warns-new-zealand-economy-is-delicately-placed-as-general-business-sentiment-hits-lowest-level-in-a-decade

Note to Jacinda: You wont get people out of poverdy and into houses if they don't have jobs that employers can afford to pay for.

[Joshuatree]

More common sense and inclusiveness good stuff


Government seeks public input on well-being indicators Radio New Zealand 1 hour ago (https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/government-seeks-public-input-on-well-being-indicators/ar-BBLi1Ct?ocid=spartandhp)

[minimoke]

More common sense and inclusiveness good stuff


Government seeks public input on well-being indicators Radio New Zealand 1 hour ago (https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/government-seeks-public-input-on-well-being-indicators/ar-BBLi1Ct?ocid=spartandhp)"well being" is purely and totally a subjective measure. Its a nonsense. As for their being 100 of them, well that's just a good opportunity to mop up every moaner in existence.

[Joshuatree]

I dont think you are beyond compassion, or empathy you must hav'nt learnt it yet. never too late for you "strong" scroogey men:(
The national govts top down punitive welfare approach is a failure, it just cultivated more of the same, people with no self worth, not good for them or our society. cruel and unusual and abject failure, maybe even a soft human rights issue.

The govt's approach using kindness and humanity gives people a chance to hope, from hope springs personal growth and wellbeing and citizens to be proud of.

[minimoke]

I dont think you are beyond compassion, or empathy you must hav'nt learnt it yet. never too late for you "strong" scroogey men:(
The national govts top down punitive welfare approach is a failure, it just cultivated more of the same, people with no self worth, not good for them or our society. cruel and unusual and abject failure, maybe even a soft human rights issue.

The govt's approach using kindness and humanity gives people a chance to hope, from hope springs personal growth and wellbeing and citizens to be proud of.

I think you are forgetting our last government had to steer the country through a GFC and Canterbury earthquake natural disasters _ loads of kindness showen then

[Joshuatree]

Yes i remember Bill English pulling out his ace and introducing Gerry Brownlea to his audience in Ch Ch on his tour pre elections. The look on his face as he stretched one arm out and said heres gerry as the crowd booed loudly, yep said it all.

[minimoke]

Yes i remember Bill English pulling out his ace and introducing Gerry Brownlea to his audience in Ch Ch on his tour pre elections. The look on his face as he stretched one arm out and said heres gerry as the crowd booed loudly, yep said it all.
There was more to the Chch earthquakes than Dim Gerry leading Dimmer EQC

[Joshuatree]

True and its BrownlEE as in SpEEdos , sorry Gerry.

[jonu]

Interesting piece by Mathew Hooton (yes, I know he has an agenda) in the paper today. Paints an ugly picture of the inner workings of the coalition. The Greens principles sacrificed on the altar of Winston.

[fungus pudding]

Interesting piece by Mathew Hooton (yes, I know he has an agenda) in the paper today. Paints an ugly picture of the inner workings of the coalition. The Greens principles sacrificed on the altar of Winston.

Which paper? Could you post the link?

[777]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12099988

[westerly]

"well being" is purely and totally a subjective measure. Its a nonsense. As for their being 100 of them, well that's just a good opportunity to mop up every moaner in existence.

Be carefull if they are mopping up moaners :)

westerly

[minimoke]

Be carefull if they are mopping up moaners :)

westerly
I know they wont be calling on my public views. Wouldnt suit their agenda.

[iceman]

As expected, Joyce is going to be proven right https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12103577

[macduffy]

As expected, Joyce is going to be proven right https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12103577

...... but at least something is finally being done to address the building skills shortage, with subsidies being paid to encourage employers to take long term unemployed youths on apprenticeships. I just hope they've budgetted for the inevitable claims from other such groups, e.g. the present crop of low paid youths/apprentices.

[minimoke]

...... but at least something is finally being done to address the building skills shortage, with subsidies being paid to encourage employers to take long term unemployed youths on apprenticeships. I just hope they've budgetted for the inevitable claims from other such groups, e.g. the present crop of low paid youths/apprentices.Oh FFS why is she wearing a Hih viz jacket.

Its about time she got her had out ot the air head clouds. The first thing employers want from an 18 - 24 year old is the proven ability to turn up to work on time and work consistently the contracted number of hours. You woudlnt htink this woudl be a hard ask - but its something way beyond many of todays youtth - especially those at winz.

Lets say teh employer gets $1000 a month.

I bet an employer would much sooner have a 90 day trial period to see if the lazy layabout can turn up to work.

$1,000 isnt going to cut it. $2,500 legal fees from a lawyer to help defend a bogus Personal Grievance for wrong full dismissal. Biff in another $1500 for lost wages and $ 3,000 for Hurt and humiliation" and any smart employer isnt going to take the risk on these kids.

The kids don't need dignity . They need a kick up the bum and if they don't turn up for work they don't get the dole. Solved!

Edit: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/106111743/govt-unemployed-youth-need-dignity-of-work

[Joshuatree]

Great stuff


Young people get dole for work in new apprentice scheme (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12103962)

[minimoke]

Great stuff


Young people get dole for work in new apprentice scheme (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12103962)


Please see post 1328

[Joshuatree]

I did, quite a reaction, weird. Swearing , generalisations, laziness,negativity.I think its great myself, motivational confidence building, self esteem enhancing, helps some people from a negative idle, depressed space to a productive, self generating confident member of the workforce.

[minimoke]

I did, quite a reaction, weird. Swearing , generalisations, laziness,negativity.I think its great myself, motivational confidence building, self esteem enhancing, helps some people from a negative idle, depressed space to a productive, self generating confident member of the workforce.If we could harness the virtue generated by this government we wouldn't need our hydro scheme.

[westerly]

[QUOTE=minimoke;724080]Oh FFS why is she wearing a Hih viz jacket.

Perhaps because -
"The announcement took place at Downer Yard in Porirua, the civil works and engineering company's Wellington "super-site"

On a different note, the Labour Govts proposed changes to Local Govt. removing changes introduced by National are a backward step in my opinion.
I am convinced that the continual increases in Council rates and fees way above inflation is a major reason for price rises in general.
Restoring Local Govt. to their previous position is a mistake.

westerly

[minimoke]

[QUOTE=minimoke;724080]Oh FFS why is she wearing a Hih viz jacket.

Perhaps because -
"The announcement took place at Downer Yard in Porirua, the civil works and engineering company's Wellington "super-site"So's there a super chance of being whacked by a truck or forklift?

[Joshuatree]

Our resident relentless negative poster, glass empty, huge chip on the shoulder of life. Is that your default position, i hope not mm, no way to live a life.:confused:

I think its a fantastic offering for young people who have lost their way and for business too, a win /win hopefully.


Young people get dole for work in new apprentice scheme (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12103962)

[minimoke]

My plan would be
- no dole for any one aged 18 - 24. (Nothing like a hungry tummy to motivate into work)
- no dole for any one
Instead you have a deduction from your pay as insurance in the event of loss of work.
- if a subsidy is to be payable it is available for all youth - not just those who have proven themselves incapable of securing work
- retain trial period. To ensure lazy bones can get out of bed consistently for 90 work days

[fungus pudding]

My plan would be
- no dole for any one aged 18 - 24. (Nothing like a hungry tummy to motivate into work)
- no dole for any one
Instead you have a deduction from your pay as insurance in the event of loss of work.


Already exists, It's called income tax, and currently it's dumped in the consolidated fund.

[artemis]

I have a bit of knowledge in this area as we have an apprentice in the family plus a small tradie business.

A lot of things are unclear to me about the proposal, may become clearer over time.

Is a foundation course required? It does give them a good start. (One day our boy came home buzzing as he had his first go at trenching with a digger!) There is book work required, as well as practical skills. So that needs functional numeracy and literacy, and not all those 70,000 NEETs have these.

The apprentice did the foundation course for his trades. Over 20 started, 4 finished. Week 2 the first ones dropped out. Most were made to be there by WINZ.

The cost is unclear, with the latest number being $3k to $6k per placement, much much less than the previous numbers. Sounds like the new number is the pastoral care component only, I suppose because the dole cost might have been paid. Though surely some of these kids would find work anyway. Planting trees perhaps.

The scheme will work for some. There will be dropouts. Employers might buy in but won't stay in if the first placement doesn't work. There's a lot of effort goes into an apprentice in the first couple of years.

[jonu]

Let's do this



New Zealand Herald
nzherald.co.nz

NZ Herald
10 Aug, 2018 2:19pm

BUSINESS
Matthew Hooton: Worsening crisis of confidence
10 Aug, 2018 2:00pm
4 minutes to read

Did Grant Robertson and Jacinda Ardern and the rest of the Labour crew do any policy work during nine years in opposition? Photo / Brett Phibbs
By: Matthew Hooton

matthew.hooton@exceltium.com


COMMENT:
The current business confidence crisis is set to become an investment crisis and full-scale economic downturn.
Already Treasury has cut its growth forecasts while Statistics NZ reports unemployment is up. Inevitably, welfare spending will rise above budget, forecast tax-takes will fall and the Government's projected debt-to-GDP ratio will increase.
The coalition's budget rules mean its fiscal response can only be pro-cyclical, cutting planned spending to keep within its debt-to-GDP cap.


The outlook risks being catastrophic not just to the thousands who will lose their jobs but also to the Government's re-election hopes.
Jacinda Ardern and Grant Robertson have spent the week denying there is a crisis while also insisting it's everyone else's fault.
They are right that business confidence has slipped globally because of Brexit and Donald Trump's trade war, but that does not explain why things are so much worse in New Zealand.
Business confidence is plunging, not just in absolute terms, but also relative to the rest of the world.
Two years ago, New Zealand businesspeople were the second-most confident in the developed world.
Now they are the second-least confident, with pessimism as bad as during the Global Financial Crisis.

True to form, the Beehive's response has included smearing those who collect the data and participate in the surveys. Trade Minister David Parker has led that charge, saying the studies are "junk", a "survey of the emotions" and "the vibe of a self-selected subset of CEOs".
Labour's media surrogates have loyally argued it's all just a tantrum about the colour of the new Government. But the Government is not "new".
It was elected nearly a year ago and business confidence did not sink to its current depths immediately.
The real problem is that Ardern, Robertson and the rest of the Labour crew were either incapable, too lazy or too distracted to do any policy work during nine years in opposition.
The Government's 100-odd working groups are designed to fill that gap, but their combined effect is to leave every area of policy open to radical change but with no real indication of the nature of that change or when it might happen.
We have no idea what taxes might be dreamed up by the Tax Working Group, let alone which will be implemented or at what rate.
The proposed independent Climate Change Commission means Parker and Nick Smith's Emissions Trading Scheme might be replaced with something better or worse.
It's unclear if the Government will streamline the Resource Management Act processes or expand the Auckland urban boundary.
On water, some sort of tradeable rights scheme seems inevitable, with Māori taking some percentage as with the fishing quota. But the Government is unable to indicate when it will happen, how it will operate or what it might cost.
Consequently, farmers and growers don't know if their access to water will be restricted or a charge introduced. Potential new entrants, including iwi, don't know if they might get better or cheaper access. Neither can invest until the policy is resolved.
Similarly, no one knows what Jim Bolger's Fair Pay Agreements working group will conclude, with fears it will be the biggest reversal in industrial relations since Bolger himself abolished compulsory unionism in 1983.
Future immigration policy is unclear, despite its reduction being Winston Peter's central political message for a quarter century. Almost every other important area of policy, including health and education, is equally up for grabs.
Meanwhile, businesspeople are right to worry Shane Jones might suddenly turn up at your competitor's operation with a big cheque from his $3 billion Provincial Growth Fund.
After the oil and gas decision, there is no certainty internal coalition politics won't mean your entire industry won't suddenly be declared unwelcome.
Alongside its diversions and smears, the Government tried this week to launch a charm offensive, with Ardern and Parker's "Trade for All" initiative and Robertson's people pointing media to a speech he gave at SkyCity.
The former is an Ardern special. A year-along "conversation" about what trade means to you, complete with yet another "advisory board".
Robertson's speech was the usual precis of historic economic data combined with vague references to an Economic Plan, written in the style of a high school debating runner-up.
The Beehive PR machine needs to remember it's communicating with investors and business leaders, not infants.
In fact, Robertson knows full well there is no plan. How could there be when absolutely any policy that counts, including even whether trade is a good thing, is to be left undetermined not just for weeks or months but, in some cases, for years?
- Matthew Hooton is managing director of PR and corporate affairs firm Exceltium.

[minimoke]

Another govt Feel Good waste of time. Banning single use plasic bags. Lets put aside for a moment lots of these are actually multi- use and get used as bin liners.

In a foreshore survey in Canada worst plastic pollutant was Cigarete filters, followed by food containers, then bottle caps, bottles, cans, straws, other plastic bags, metal bottle caps plastic and foam packaging. And languishing in 10th spot was plastic grocery bags. In a Pacific Ocean survey 46% of plasticss were fishing nets. If you add ropes and lines you get 52%

The better question for govt is "how can we recycle / reuse". But thats too hard when you dont have a policy group doing your thinking.

[winner69]

Bridges is a real idiot .....and I’m trying to be nice about it

[BlackPeter]

Is this the result of a generic analysis or a reaction to a recent event?

[jonu]

Bridges is a real idiot .....and I’m trying to be nice about it

Bit of a random outburst there Winner

[Joshuatree]

Let's do this



New Zealand Herald
nzherald.co.nz

NZ Herald
10 Aug, 2018 2:19pm

BUSINESS
Matthew Hooton: Worsening crisis of confidence
10 Aug, 2018 2:00pm
4 minutes to read

Did Grant Robertson and Jacinda Ardern and the rest of the Labour crew do any policy work during nine years in opposition? Photo / Brett Phibbs
By: Matthew Hooton

matthew.hooton@exceltium.com


COMMENT:
The current business confidence crisis is set to become an investment crisis and full-scale economic downturn.
Already Treasury has cut its growth forecasts while Statistics NZ reports unemployment is up. Inevitably, welfare spending will rise above budget, forecast tax-takes will fall and the Government's projected debt-to-GDP ratio will increase.
The coalition's budget rules mean its fiscal response can only be pro-cyclical, cutting planned spending to keep within its debt-to-GDP cap.


The outlook risks being catastrophic not just to the thousands who will lose their jobs but also to the Government's re-election hopes.
Jacinda Ardern and Grant Robertson have spent the week denying there is a crisis while also insisting it's everyone else's fault.
They are right that business confidence has slipped globally because of Brexit and Donald Trump's trade war, but that does not explain why things are so much worse in New Zealand.
Business confidence is plunging, not just in absolute terms, but also relative to the rest of the world.
Two years ago, New Zealand businesspeople were the second-most confident in the developed world.
Now they are the second-least confident, with pessimism as bad as during the Global Financial Crisis.

True to form, the Beehive's response has included smearing those who collect the data and participate in the surveys. Trade Minister David Parker has led that charge, saying the studies are "junk", a "survey of the emotions" and "the vibe of a self-selected subset of CEOs".
Labour's media surrogates have loyally argued it's all just a tantrum about the colour of the new Government. But the Government is not "new".
It was elected nearly a year ago and business confidence did not sink to its current depths immediately.
The real problem is that Ardern, Robertson and the rest of the Labour crew were either incapable, too lazy or too distracted to do any policy work during nine years in opposition.
The Government's 100-odd working groups are designed to fill that gap, but their combined effect is to leave every area of policy open to radical change but with no real indication of the nature of that change or when it might happen.
We have no idea what taxes might be dreamed up by the Tax Working Group, let alone which will be implemented or at what rate.
The proposed independent Climate Change Commission means Parker and Nick Smith's Emissions Trading Scheme might be replaced with something better or worse.
It's unclear if the Government will streamline the Resource Management Act processes or expand the Auckland urban boundary.
On water, some sort of tradeable rights scheme seems inevitable, with Māori taking some percentage as with the fishing quota. But the Government is unable to indicate when it will happen, how it will operate or what it might cost.
Consequently, farmers and growers don't know if their access to water will be restricted or a charge introduced. Potential new entrants, including iwi, don't know if they might get better or cheaper access. Neither can invest until the policy is resolved.
Similarly, no one knows what Jim Bolger's Fair Pay Agreements working group will conclude, with fears it will be the biggest reversal in industrial relations since Bolger himself abolished compulsory unionism in 1983.
Future immigration policy is unclear, despite its reduction being Winston Peter's central political message for a quarter century. Almost every other important area of policy, including health and education, is equally up for grabs.
Meanwhile, businesspeople are right to worry Shane Jones might suddenly turn up at your competitor's operation with a big cheque from his $3 billion Provincial Growth Fund.
After the oil and gas decision, there is no certainty internal coalition politics won't mean your entire industry won't suddenly be declared unwelcome.
Alongside its diversions and smears, the Government tried this week to launch a charm offensive, with Ardern and Parker's "Trade for All" initiative and Robertson's people pointing media to a speech he gave at SkyCity.
The former is an Ardern special. A year-along "conversation" about what trade means to you, complete with yet another "advisory board".
Robertson's speech was the usual precis of historic economic data combined with vague references to an Economic Plan, written in the style of a high school debating runner-up.
The Beehive PR machine needs to remember it's communicating with investors and business leaders, not infants.
In fact, Robertson knows full well there is no plan. How could there be when absolutely any policy that counts, including even whether trade is a good thing, is to be left undetermined not just for weeks or months but, in some cases, for years?
- Matthew Hooton is managing director of PR and corporate affairs firm Exceltium.

Mathew is on the outer as a credible journalist.heres a positive bit of balance from Gordon Campbell.


Gordon Campbell on why worrying about business confidence is a wasted effort (http://werewolf.co.nz/2018/08/gordon-campbell-on-why-worrying-about-business-confidence-is-a-wasted-effort/)

"That’s the real problem of course, with business confidence. For reasons that amount to little more than a prolonged political sulk over last year’s election result, the corporate world is talking itself into a tantrum. There is no valid economic reason for the business sector to feel as negative as it now professes itself to be. In fact, if business feels as bad as this when the overall economic indicators are this positive, Lord help us if a genuine financial crisis ever comes over the horizon."

[jonu]

[QUOTE=Joshuatree;724478]Mathew is on the outer as a credible journalist.

I'm inclined to agree JT, but the last couple of columns from him have raised valid concerns.

Business confidence stems from all sorts of things...some emotional...others hard data like forward orders, rising costs etc. I think Gordon (the old leftie) Campbell is going out on a limb to say business is sulking. I think business leaders are more pragmatic than that.

[Joshuatree]

I dont see any validity in those paragraphs. it is mainly politicalised imo, we really have it good here in NZ . Things aren't perfect and we are transitioning away from nationals immigration etc economy . I can understand some uncertainty and sentiment as big changes are happening and business may lose a little favouritism but overall its make hay while the sun shines(exchange rate the latest opp) and pull finger.

[macduffy]

Won't be long now before we hear the old FDR line - "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

;)

[BlackPeter]

I dont see any validity in those paragraphs. it is mainly politicalised imo, we really have it good here in NZ . Things aren't perfect and we are transitioning away from nationals immigration etc economy . I can understand some uncertainty and sentiment as big changes are happening and business may lose a little favouritism but overall its make hay while the sun shines(exchange rate the latest opp) and pull finger.

You need to open your eyes to see :D;

The current government is pushing labour costs up by two digit figures through stupid and unjustified (i.e. not supported by productivity gains) increases of the minimum wage. This is obviously directly impacting the bottom line - how can this be good for business?

The current government is adding plenty of non work related cost to the employment bills - free (but paid) days for domestic violence in the family ... what's next - free days if the neighbours pet falls ill? I guess all nice to have, but what the government does not seem to understand is that each of the freebies they are throwing around is reducing the competitiveness of our industry.

Payback time for any union supporting this government is not only pushing the tax bills up (or increasing the black hole which used to be the public budget). Where do you think will the money come from to pay nurses, teachers, age care workers, mental health nurses and no doubt soon police, army, bureaucrats and politicians two digit par rises? Just wait for workers in the industry to follow suit (or leave). How is this not bad for our industry?

The current government does nor tend to make decisions (unless they are really stupid, bad for business as well as the environment like the ridiculous decision to stop oil and gas exploration) but adds for any issue another debating club to talk and talk and talk. Nobody can predict the outcome of tax reforms and many other open issues ... and uncertainty is bad for business.

The current government is implementing populist "solutions" - stuff which sounds good if you had too much alcohol, but does not work. Fighting immigration is part of that. Bad for business - less qualified workers, less customers. Stupid.

This government is bad for business. No surprise business confidence dropped from second best in the OECD under National to second worst now. We do have an incompetent prime minister under a populist leader supported by a watermelon appendix. How do you think business should feel good about this?

Just open your eyes, and enjoy how your government is destructing our economy.

[winner69]

Re ban on plastic bags

All of us should read this. It’s a pretty poor document .....stuff all real analysis or evaluation....and no doubt the decision has already been made

Maybe that’s how bad our public service has become

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/sites/default/files/media/Waste/plastic-bags-consultation-doc.pdf

[BlackPeter]

Re ban on plastic bags

All of us should read this. It’s a pretty poor document .....stuff all real analysis or evaluation....and no doubt the decision has already been made

Maybe that’s how bad our public service has become

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/sites/default/files/media/Waste/plastic-bags-consultation-doc.pdf

LOL - these gals have absolutely no clue what they are doing - don't they? Maybe we could have a referendum on this document?

56 pages, 13 questions (hidden in the text) plus many sub-questions. Business will need to employ additional staff just to respond to consultations like that and evaluating their responses will take many person years. Anybody expecting a clear answer on this question list? Anybody wondering why business confidence is down?

But hey - they make sure Winston First clientele is protected:


Consumers on lower incomes who may not feel able to afford longer-life bags may need
assistance during any transition. We will engage with retailers on practical options. An example
could be for holders of Community Service Cards and Gold Cards to receive assistance or
concessions.

How thoughtful. We clearly will need an additional shopping bag payment for beneficiaries. All these senior policy analysts clearly punch above their weight ...

Just wondering - can we please do this in future for every mental fart the government might have? We probably need to allow more immigration to get enough policy analysts on board and will spend all our tax money on them, but at least will it stop these dilettantes to do any additional damage to our country.

And just in case anybody is wondering - get rid of one way plastic bags.

Maybe we could even get rid at the same time of the government and pick some grown ups who knows how to do their job?

[Joshuatree]

Re ban on plastic bags

All of us should read this. It’s a pretty poor document .....stuff all real analysis or evaluation....and no doubt the decision has already been made

Maybe that’s how bad our public service has become

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/sites/default/files/media/Waste/plastic-bags-consultation-doc.pdf

The times they are a changin
Just skimmed it but good stuff, and about time.
AMC a popular stock with investment advisors and one of the bigger packaging companies in the world is changing too. $16.5 billion company pledging to make all its packaging recyclable by 2025.

Join The Dots ,its so simple its complicated for people who won't , dont change their thinking, extreme narcissism?.

[macduffy]

Good grief! An executive decision to cease exploration for oil and gas; 57 pages of "consultation" waffle about a subject that NZ consumers and business generally agree is necessary and inevitable!

[Joshuatree]

Excellent and thorough template. Setting up a flow through for all the rest to follow. No pleasing you armchair critics, you may find a hundred helium balloons taking you high at some point to get another angle;)

[minimoke]

Re ban on plastic bags

All of us should read this. It’s a pretty poor document .....stuff all real analysis or evaluation....and no doubt the decision has already been made

Maybe that’s how bad our public service has become

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/sites/default/files/media/Waste/plastic-bags-consultation-doc.pdfFirst rule of policy is to define the problem.

Looking at Fig 1 the problem (by weight - which reckon is the worst part as weight has to contain more pollution) is that the worst litterer of our coasts is Building materials and tyres, followed by bouys and floats. And then clothes, shoes and ropes. and then glass bottles and then plastic bottles.

Yawn - where are the plastic bags?

So I cant waste my time reading further as the proposed solution doesn't relate to the problem.

But because I am more green than the average Greeny I will read on. For a bit. And what do I find. Single use plastic bags are estimated to account for 0.01% of landfill. Seriously. We need a solution to this?. I'm no govt paid policy wonk but I reckon disposable nappies probably account for at least 1% of crap going into landfill - how-about we ban them

After that I'm afraid I've lost interest

[Joshuatree]

some more informative views here from Brian Easton

‘Business Opinion’ is falling. Does it matter? (https://pundit.co.nz/content/%E2%80%98business-opinion%E2%80%99-is-falling-does-it-matter)
"The world economy aside, the biggest pressure is almost certainly public sector wage demands which are news headlines but not generating much informed comment. Everyone knows the Richardson-Shipley slashing of benefits cut government spending, bedding in the low tax regime on high income recipients. Less appreciated is that, a few years earlier, the Lange-Douglas government had cut back public sector wages by changing public sector management (mainly via the State Sector Act and the Public Finance Act) with similar effect. The process of repressing public sector remuneration (except at the top) has been going on for three decades.
A generation later we are facing a public sector wage breakout which is adding to government spending pressures. It would be easy to say that the unions are taking advantage of a weak Labour Government, but the dam was leaking under the last National one. Perhaps there is a fundamental structural change going on; but what, why and where? This should leave one’s opinions thoughtful and certainly not complacent."

[Joshuatree]

Wannabe lives it up with end to end rehearsal.

"Opposition leaders do tend to pay more dollars for crown limos than ministers, although Andrew Little as Opposition Leader spent $35,000 less than Mr Bridges over the same time last year. Mr Bridges also spent more than Bill English over the same period - and Mr English was Prime Minister at the time.


Leaked: Simon Bridges' roadshow has cost taxpayers $113k 1 hour ago It's three times as much as Andrew Little spent in the same time last year. (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/simon-bridges-road-show-cash-splash-more-than-100-000-taxpayer-money-on-limos-and-hotels.html)It's even a bit more than the current Prime Minister spent in the first three months of this year."

[minimoke]

some more informative views here from Brian Easton

‘Business Opinion’ is falling. Does it matter? (https://pundit.co.nz/content/%E2%80%98business-opinion%E2%80%99-is-falling-does-it-matter)
"The world economy aside, the biggest pressure is almost certainly ……..

Doesnt matter how you end the sentence the government has to manage it - same way National had to manage a GFC or a Christchurch earthquakes.

So far we have ban bin liners.

[minimoke]

Wannabe lives it up with end to end rehearsal.

"Opposition leaders do tend to pay more dollars for crown limos than ministers, although Andrew Little as Opposition Leader spent $35,000 less than Mr Bridges over the same time last year. Mr Bridges also spent more than Bill English over the same period - and Mr English was Prime Minister at the time.


Leaked: Simon Bridges' roadshow has cost taxpayers $113k 1 hour ago It's three times as much as Andrew Little spent in the same time last year. (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/simon-bridges-road-show-cash-splash-more-than-100-000-taxpayer-money-on-limos-and-hotels.html)It's even a bit more than the current Prime Minister spent in the first three months of this year."
Nice distraction Tova. And "no", we arent really interested in your opinion. Howabout sticking to reporting real news. Like Turkeys meltdown with USA

[Joshuatree]

Reminds me of an elderly relative at an art exhibition, " i could have done that"

[Raz]

Nice distraction Tova. And "no", we arent really interested in your opinion. Howabout sticking to reporting real news. Like Turkeys meltdown with USA

Really he went around and preached to the converted, National party supporters, really a party related cost one would think.

Business confidence does matter people.. when it reflects non profits and businesses having to consider closing as they can not on charge min age, pay parity payments or source staff..the country has a problem...

Yet its all about Auckland house prices could drop 5%...

Plus the forex certainly produces winner and losers....

Why is there no informed debate now in this country..all these media commentators are the so called experts on everything and no experts on issues of significance in the media...

[minimoke]

Really he went around and preached to the converted, National party supporters, really a party related cost one would think. Same could probably said for all politician trips regardless of party.




Why is there no informed debate now in this country..all these media commentators are the so called experts on everything and no experts on issues of significance in the media... That is something I miss and why I dont watch the news. I have no interest in some air heads opinion. (and some balance would be nice - not just a journalists one sided view.)

[winner69]

Dectective Trev on the case

https://www.nzx.com/announcements/322139

Who cares anyway?

[Joshuatree]

$919 a day trying to bolster his flagging status and preaching to the converted, thats troughing it . Agree his party should have paid for it but they prob would think thats wasted money..

[777]

$919 a day trying to bolster his flagging status and preaching to the converted, thats troughing it . Agree his party should have paid for it but they prob would think thats wasted money..

If you had listened to the Hosking/Ardern interview this morning you would have heard her say it is surprising how quickly these expenses add up. She wasn't that concerned about it as the system applies to all party's.

And who paid for the mail out Jacinda made some months ago? Just an example. I didn't see you moaning about that. But then you are very selective in what you see.

Do you notice your lack of support on this thread and others where you adopt the same stance when it is out of place.

[Joshuatree]

Its been noticeable the chip on shoulder attacks from the unadaptables on here. Flexibility and adjustment is required like yoga of the mind;) .The transition from an immigration and ridiculous housing value economy is here and happening for a more sustainable, healthy and just country for all is happening.:D Get out of your snipers hole and contribute.

[winner69]

Treasury articles are always interesting. Seems productivity been a problem for a very long time

Here’s one staff member’s insights

“The magic bus meets the little yellow digger”

https://treasury.govt.nz/publications/staff-insight/measurement-new-zealands-productivity-capital

[Joshuatree]

Int discussion wth XERO managing director Chris Hudson on national radio this morn.

Data on small business insight
Small business , 20 employees or less make up re 29%of gdp
Core platform data from 300,000 subscriptions analysed into 5 metrics
More and more accurate data then the govt has and it will be released every 4 months

XERO are highlighting a part of the economy that hasn't had the light of day for a long time.

Small business doing better than last year, with a 7-10% growth

Hiring over and above the national average

Month on month there is a slight slowing from a gallop to a canter but that could be seasonality, winter construction etc.

Time to being paid has improved 5.1% a very positive metric

A very different story on where business confidence is. A political football being kicked around. Small business is stable, a glass half full positivity. But this is being undermined. The gloomy perceptions being pushed by media and the opposition, putting doubt into small business minds, talking ourselves into a hole. Its actually going well and they are looking to hire more staff but because of what they are hearing through the media maybe they won't hire. talking ourselves into gloominess. false perception can become reality.

Thats what i call being traitor to your country, pushing the fake news ,like some are...

[winner69]

Int discussion wth XERO managing director Chris Hudson on national radio this morn.

Data on small business insight
Small business , 20 employees or less make up re 29%of gdp
Core platform data from 300,000 subscriptions analysed into 5 metrics
More and more accurate data then the govt has and it will be released every 4 months

XERO are highlighting a part of the economy that hasn't had the light of day for a long time.

Small business doing better than last year, with a 7-10% growth

Hiring over and above the national average

Month on month there is a slight slowing from a gallop to a canter but that could be seasonality, winter construction etc.

Time to being paid has improved 5.1% a very positive metric

A very different story on where business confidence is. A political football being kicked around. Small business is stable, a glass half full positivity. But this is being undermined. The gloomy perceptions being pushed by media and the opposition, putting doubt into small business minds, talking ourselves into a hole. Its actually going well and they are looking to hire more staff but because of what they are hearing through the media maybe they won't hire. talking ourselves into gloominess. false perception can become reality.

Thats what i call being traitor to your country, pushing the fake news ,like some are...

Maybe those same small business owners (probably many are Xero users) should be more honest in answering a few questions on business confidence surveys.

[BlackPeter]

Int discussion wth XERO managing director Chris Hudson on national radio this morn.

Data on small business insight
Small business , 20 employees or less make up re 29%of gdp
Core platform data from 300,000 subscriptions analysed into 5 metrics
More and more accurate data then the govt has and it will be released every 4 months

XERO are highlighting a part of the economy that hasn't had the light of day for a long time.

Small business doing better than last year, with a 7-10% growth

Hiring over and above the national average

Month on month there is a slight slowing from a gallop to a canter but that could be seasonality, winter construction etc.

Time to being paid has improved 5.1% a very positive metric

A very different story on where business confidence is. A political football being kicked around. Small business is stable, a glass half full positivity. But this is being undermined. The gloomy perceptions being pushed by media and the opposition, putting doubt into small business minds, talking ourselves into a hole. Its actually going well and they are looking to hire more staff but because of what they are hearing through the media maybe they won't hire. talking ourselves into gloominess. false perception can become reality.

Thats what i call being traitor to your country, pushing the fake news ,like some are...

A post worthwhile of Mr Erdogan ... you should be ashamed of yourself. Anybody who disagrees with your incredible one sided views is a traitor - really?

BTW - just in case you want to open your mind ...

Have a look into the state of the construction industry. Lots of SME's. Are they doing well - really?

Have a look at transport. Lots of SME's - and they just start feeling the bite from increased petrol taxes in combination with rapidly increasing petrol prices - courtesy to a government driving our currency down.

Have a look at education - government killing off high performing charter schools and destroying jobs just to make sure the teachers unions get a still better grip to strangle and blackmail the country.

And just wait until all these pay rises come through. Ever thought who is going to pay for them? Yes, correct - another burden for SME's - either direct on the wage-list or indirect with still higher taxes.

[Joshuatree]

See i what i mean a typical miserable half empty glass trying to drag everything down to his negative level and beating them with experience.
A shining example of false perception. the way a traitor thinks.

If you bothered to be open to read the above its about NEW data aboutthe 29% GDP created by small business which is doing well but being pushed into doubt by political falsehoods. Careful what you wish for.

[winner69]

This Twitter thread shows how bitter and twisted some are around the Beehive .....even JT would be indignant

Good for a bit of entertainment if nothing else

https://twitter.com/matthewhootonnz/status/1028907305696354304

Matthew Hooton (@MatthewHootonNZ)
13/08/18, 7:33 PM
The Prime Minister had drinks in her office on Thursday with journalists, to explain to them how she didn't want Baby Neve to be used for political purposes. Baby Neve was then passed around the assembled journalists so each of them could have a cuddle.

[minimoke]

Treasury articles are always interesting. Seems productivity been a problem for a very long time

Here’s one staff member’s insights

“The magic bus meets the little yellow digger”

https://treasury.govt.nz/publications/staff-insight/measurement-new-zealands-productivity-capital
Its no surprise. We have had successive governments push Working For Families, Minimum Wage, PAy Equity and the Living Wage. All this drives up wage costs - but not one single word about a need ot see those recieving thes encreases being even a tad more productive. I'd go as far as saying these policies are actually a disincentive to be more productive.

[winner69]

Int discussion wth XERO managing director Chris Hudson on national radio this morn.

Data on small business insight
Small business , 20 employees or less make up re 29%of gdp
Core platform data from 300,000 subscriptions analysed into 5 metrics
More and more accurate data then the govt has and it will be released every 4 months

XERO are highlighting a part of the economy that hasn't had the light of day for a long time.

Small business doing better than last year, with a 7-10% growth

Hiring over and above the national average

Month on month there is a slight slowing from a gallop to a canter but that could be seasonality, winter construction etc.

Time to being paid has improved 5.1% a very positive metric

A very different story on where business confidence is. A political football being kicked around. Small business is stable, a glass half full positivity. But this is being undermined. The gloomy perceptions being pushed by media and the opposition, putting doubt into small business minds, talking ourselves into a hole. Its actually going well and they are looking to hire more staff but because of what they are hearing through the media maybe they won't hire. talking ourselves into gloominess. false perception can become reality.

Thats what i call being traitor to your country, pushing the fake news ,like some are...

Interesting only about 50% of SMEs are cash flow positive

https://www.xero.com/nz/resources/small-business-insights/s/metric/cash-flow/

[fungus pudding]

Interesting only about 50% of SMEs are cash flow positive

https://www.xero.com/nz/resources/small-business-insights/s/metric/cash-flow/

What on earth is a 'cash flow positve business'; is it simply a euphemism for 'profitable'?

[Joshuatree]

Interesting only about 50% of SMEs are cash flow positive

https://www.xero.com/nz/resources/small-business-insights/s/metric/cash-flow/

Thanks w69, thats the XERO stats laid out clearly for small business.

Cameron Bage..... stated 6 C risks to the economy many out of our control

Contagion risk
Currency
China
Cost of funds
Commodity prices
Confidence, the one thing we can deal with and correct where necessary.

[winner69]

What on earth is a 'cash flow positve business'; is it simply a euphemism for 'profitable'?

Think it means you spend less cash than what you get in.

[fungus pudding]

Think it means you spend less cash than what you get in.

I presume that's what it means; but surely 50% of SME's are not running at a loss? Bit of a worry if that's anywhere near the case.

[minimoke]

I presume that's what it means; but surely 50% of SME's are not running at a loss? Bit of a worry if that's anywhere near the case.Its a bit old, but written in positive times: 10 businesses go bust a day
https://www.pinpointbusiness.co.nz/small-business-articles/why-do-too-many-small-businesses-fail/

[winner69]

I presume that's what it means; but surely 50% of SME's are not running at a loss? Bit of a worry if that's anywhere near the case.

Maybe not as high as 50% running at a loss (cash flow contains capex, working capital etc) but you would be surprised at how many do or make very little real profit.

In a lot of cases it’s a person creating a job for himself and more often or not doesn’t really (or unable to) reward himself for the effort put in ...and the risk taken

SMEs (less than 20 employees) make up about 30-35% of the economy and about 35% of all employees.

It is these business that Labour appear to want to get rid off in their transition to a higher paid workforce and a more productive economy. ‘Theory’ being if an enterprise can’t afford to pay a decent living they should not be in business and the capital moved to more productive business ...or something like that Paul Eagles said when he muttered his way through an explanation of some of Labour policies.

[Vagabond47]

Its no surprise. We have had successive governments push Working For Families, Minimum Wage, PAy Equity and the Living Wage. All this drives up wage costs - but not one single word about a need ot see those recieving thes encreases being even a tad more productive. I'd go as far as saying these policies are actually a disincentive to be more productive.

I'd go so far as to say you are irrational. Working for families does not cost the employer, its all tax credits from the govt to the employee. Employer has nothing to do with it.

Working for families has not pushed up wages, quite the opposite, it has subsidised wages. Employees that wouldn't be able to make ends meet without it have been able to be stay in their jobs because of the handouts, instead of pushing for wage rises to cover their increasing costs of living, or buggering off to somewhere with better pay.

Pay equity is just how it should be, two employees with the same skillset and experience doing the same job should be paid the same.

[fungus pudding]

Its a bit old, but written in positive times: 10 businesses go bust a day
https://www.pinpointbusiness.co.nz/small-business-articles/why-do-too-many-small-businesses-fail/

I'm aware of the numbers of small businesses that fail. It's not the easy, or profitable life, that many think. There are plenty of small enterprises where the owner makes less than the minimum wage - but for all that I don't believe 50% are on the verge of tipping.

[777]

Pay equity is just how it should be, two employees with the same skillset and experience doing the same job should be paid the same.

Except in the cases of one going sick all the time and the other doesn't. Also depending on an individuals attitude towards his employer and the place he works.

[Vagabond47]

Except in the cases of one going sick all the time and the other doesn't. Also depending on an individuals attitude towards his employer and the place he works.

One soon runs out of sick days, and the other gets promoted.

[winner69]

I'm aware of the numbers of small businesses that fail. It's not the easy, or profitable life, that many think. There are plenty of small enterprises where the owner makes less than the minimum wage - but for all that I don't believee 50% are on the verge of tipping.

No ...many just struggle on making ends meet and hoping for the best

But failure rate is quite high

[Raz]

No ...many just struggle on making ends meet and hoping for the best

But failure rate is quite high

Xero tends to lobby first and foremost to Government and a lot of stats are framed for their agenda at the minute. Been to a few conferences where they have presented stats that not everyone in room in the know agrees with or how they are presented...A lot of small business do have cash flow problems and a lot of companies in specific industries make a loss often with capital gain being the main objective. Some interesting papers released by the TWG...only 500 companies in NZ generate over 80 million turnover and of those 20% derive a loss.

That would be about the number of companies of a similar size in the business park in LA we are in.

Hardly big business NZ inc.

ps Are lot of small businesses do not actually fail in NZ, they just close because of change in circumstance.

[minimoke]

I'd go so far as to say you are irrational. Working for families does not cost the employer, its all tax credits from the govt to the employee. Employer has nothing to do with it.

Working for families has not pushed up wages, quite the opposite, it has subsidised wages. Employees that wouldn't be able to make ends meet without it have been able to be stay in their jobs because of the handouts, instead of pushing for wage rises to cover their increasing costs of living, or buggering off to somewhere with better pay.

.I’m sorry. In the context of my post I didn’t think I needed to explain “wages”. Obviously I do so here goes.

Lets take two workers “A” and “B”

Before Working For Families they both worked 8 hours a day, five days a week and made 500 widgets each. Each worker took home $500 in their pay.

Then WFF came in. Employee B has 1 child so that entitles him, to lets say $100 extra. So now you have Employee A taking home $500 for his 500 widgets and Employee B taking home $600 for his 500 widgets. Net cost per widget has gone up. Employee B is no more productive but there is a greater cost.

It gets worse. Say Employee B takes a day off without pay. So he only produces 400 widgets. That week Employee A takes home $500 for his 500 widgets and Employee B takes home $600 for his 400 widgets. See the problem?

But there is a perversion as well. Say Employee B does 8 hours overtime and produces 600 widgets. He gets paid an extra $100 for his labour. But because he gets paid more gross he gets less WFF - lets call it $100. So now we have employee A taking home $500 for his 500 widgets and Employee B $600 for his 600 widgets. He gets nothing for his increase in productivity. So what does Employee B do – of course he doesn’t work overtime.

Do you see where I am going with this?

Now lets say we ditch WFF. And lets say Employee A wants to start a family and Employee A has figured it costs $100 a week to have a child.

He has a few options. One is to work more hours and increase his productivity. Kinda good. Except he is worker harder not smarter – that’s not productive.

So instead he decides to educate himself a bit more, upskill, train and get a better job,

Lo and behold he is now part a higher wage higher skill economy

[minimoke]

Pay equity is just how it should be, two employees with the same skillset and experience doing the same job should be paid the same.Since you raised it, lets look at pay equity. Like it or not the most equitable pay is the total pay package agreed between a willing employer and a willing employee.

Lets see how that works.

Say I make widgets. I have a warm, dry sunny widget making place with off street parking. In my staff cafeteria you'll find A2Milk and Robert Harris Coffee. On Friday nights we celebrate our work with me suppling a cold beers and a slice of Hells pizza. I have virtually zero staff turnover and I pay a person $400 for 500 widgets.

You on the other hand also make widgets except you have a dirty old run down widget place. Your workers have to walk past the Mongrel Mob head quarters because there is no off street parking. There is a jug at the end of their widget bench, Dairy Dale milk next to it and you cant wait to see the back of that lot of pricks on Friday afternoon. Staff turnover is high and you have to pay $500 for a person to make 500 widgets.

Your employee and my employee have exactly the same widget making skillset and experience and they do they same job. You think they should be paid the same - what should they be paid?

You also seem confused with inputs (skillset / experience) with output (productivity) but the night is too short to go there.

[Vagabond47]

Then WWF came in. Employee B has 1 child so that entitles him, to lets say $100 extra. So now you have Employee A taking home $500 for his 500 widgets and Employee B taking home $600 for his 500 widgets. Net cost per widget has gone up. Employee B is no more productive but there is a greater cost.


Except that's not true. Both take home $500 from the employer, then one gets $100 tax credit from the govt. Employers cost has not risen.

[Joshuatree]

Another tick for the Govt.

Foreign house buyer ban is law (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/106297829/labours-bill-to-curb-foreigners-buying-new-zealand-houses-becomes-law)

[fungus pudding]

Another tick for the Govt.

Foreign house buyer ban is law (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/106297829/labours-bill-to-curb-foreigners-buying-new-zealand-houses-becomes-law)

If they were serious they would also stop foreigners from purchasing a site for a new home. It ain't a shortage of sticks and bricks that makes for low housing stock. It's the appropriately zoned land to plonk the sticks on.

[fungus pudding]

I’m sorry. In the context of my post I didn’t think I needed to explain “wages”. Obviously I do so here goes.

Lets take two workers “A” and “B”

Before Working For Families they both worked 8 hours a day, five days a week and made 500 widgets each. Each worker took home $500 in their pay.

Then WWF came in. Employee B has 1 child so that entitles him, to lets say $100 extra. So now you have Employee A taking home $500 for his 500 widgets and Employee B taking home $600 for his 500 widgets. Net cost per widget has gone up. Employee B is no more productive but there is a greater cost.

It gets worse. Say Employee B takes a day off without pay. So he only produces 400 widgets. That week Employee A takes home $500 for his 500 widgets and Employee B takes home $600 for his 400 widgets. See the problem?

But there is a perversion as well. Say Employee B does 8 hours overtime and produces 600 widgets. He gets paid an extra $100 for his labour. But because he gets paid more gross he gets less WWF - lets call it $100. So now we have employee A taking home $500 for his 500 widgets and Employee B $600 for his 600 widgets. He gets nothing for his increase in productivity. So what does Employee B do – of course he doesn’t work overtime.

Do you see where I am going with this?

Now lets say we ditch WWF. And lets say Employee A wants to start a family and Employee A has figured it costs $100 a week to have a child.

He has a few options. One is to work more hours and increase his productivity. Kinda good. Except he is worker harder not smarter – that’s not productive.

So instead he decides to educate himself a bit more, upskill, train and get a better job,

Lo and behold he is now part a higher wage higher skill economy

I think WWF should be WFF, unless you mean W#nkers with families.

[minimoke]

Except that's not true. Both take home $500 from the employer, then one gets $100 tax credit from the govt. Employers cost has not risen.You are being obtuse. The issue being discussed is productivity. The cost of producing the widgets has gone up. (You do under stand that government doesnt have a fairy powered money generator - the $100 paid has to come from somewhere)

[minimoke]

If they were serious they would also stop foreigners from purchasing a site for a new home. It ain't a shortage of sticks and bricks that makes for low housing stock. It's the appropriately zoned land to plonk the sticks on.The other issue is that there is no shortage of houses in NZ. Its where the population wants to be relative to where the houses are which is another problem. (No shortage of houses in Christchurch and many other regions areas in NZ).

If govt was serious they would come up with policy to get people out of Auckland and into the regions (Would help solve lots of other problems as well - transport / infrastructure / teacher shortage etc)

[iceman]

Another tick for the Govt.

Foreign house buyer ban is law (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/106297829/labours-bill-to-curb-foreigners-buying-new-zealand-houses-becomes-law)

And now we just need a CGT and all will be fixed, just like Australia (and other countries) where they have both of these and all the same issues with housing. Passing this law hasn't fixed any perceived problems so don't celebrate yet

[Bjauck]

The other issue is that there is no shortage of houses in NZ. Its where the population wants to be relative to where the houses are which is another problem. (No shortage of houses in Christchurch and many other regions areas in NZ).

If govt was serious they would come up with policy to get people out of Auckland and into the regions (Would help solve lots of other problems as well - transport / infrastructure / teacher shortage etc) The current situation is the result of decades of poorly planned infrastructure and residential land development in areas where people (both new arrivals and existing residents) want to live. There was precious little planning to cope with the result of immigration policies.

Who will pay for policies encouraging the development of regions?

[Raz]

The current situation is the result of decades of poorly planned infrastructure and residential land development in areas where people (both new arrivals and existing residents) want to live. There was precious little planning to cope with the result of immigration policies.

Who will pay for policies encouraging the development of regions?

Who will pay...the same people who are paying for Auckland...all of us!!

[fungus pudding]

The current situation is the result of decades of poorly planned infrastructure and residential land development in areas where people (both new arrivals and existing residents) want to live. There was precious little planning to cope with the result of immigration policies.

Who will pay for policies encouraging the development of regions?

Shane Jones will fix it - planting trees.

[Bjauck]

Who will pay...the same people who are paying for Auckland...all of us!!
Who has been paying for Christchurch since the quakes?
Auckland businesses and individuals pay a good whack in taxes, rates and now the regional petrol tax.

I am guessing regional development would have to be cross-subsidised by Aucklanders too. If there are tax concessions for regional businesses and developers then Aucklanders would have to make up that shortfall too

[minimoke]

Who has been paying for Christchurch since the quakes?Just so you know, we didn't ask for earthquakes. If we had a choice we would have said "don't come here" (and in answer to your question a goodly dollop has come from insurance companies, local rate payers, and insurance policy holders through their excesses))

[minimoke]

Shane Jones will fix it - planting trees.As long as they are Aborogen sourced trees I back him to the hilt.

[winner69]

I always found this a fascinating chart ......trend seems to have continued

[minimoke]

Its time we moved on from "owning the quarter acre pavlova paradise" mentality. It was quaint. But in this modern age with expanding populations and strain on resources it should no longer apply. Time to have honest conversations on renting and security of tenure

[BlackPeter]

Its time we moved on from "owning the quarter acre pavlova paradise" mentality. It was quaint. But in this modern age with expanding populations and strain on resources it should no longer apply. Time to have honest conversations on renting and security of tenure

Agree. A countries home ownership rate is not a measure of its success or of the benefits of living there.

Switzerland has a home ownership rate of 43.4%
Germany 51.9%
New Zealand 64.8%
India 86.6%
China 90%
Romania has a home ownership rate of 96.4%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

In what countries would you rather live?

[Vagabond47]

You are being obtuse. The issue being discussed is productivity. The cost of producing the widgets has gone up. (You do under stand that government doesnt have a fairy powered money generator - the $100 paid has to come from somewhere)


One of the reasons productivity is so **** is that wages haven't grown at a decent rate, so less incentive for companies to upskill and automate when they can just throw another subsidised WFF worker at the job. And of course the ridiculous amount of "investment" that has gone into non-productive property trading.

[minimoke]

One of the reasons productivity is so **** is that wages haven't grown at a decent rate, so less incentive for companies to upskill and automate when they can just throw another subsidised WFF worker at the job. And of course the ridiculous amount of "investment" that has gone into non-productive property trading.One of the unintended consequences of automations is downskilling. My two widgets makers might have really good manual widget making skills. And they are being paid a fair wage for a fair amount of productivity - we know that because we have agreed the pay so that is fair.

If wages go up employers will look to automation (or offshore). So what I could do is look at a Widget Making machine. Say I find one that can make 1,000 widgets a week. Now I don't need two skilled Widget Workers. I just need Widget Making Button Pusher worker. Not a lot of skill required for that. So that person is going to going to get paid less.

(Lets not divert from the productivity discussion - but just be aware that profits on trading attracts tax. So can be deemed productive)

[Raz]

Just so you know, we didn't ask for earthquakes. If we had a choice we would have said "don't come here" (and in answer to your question a goodly dollop has come from insurance companies, local rate payers, and insurance policy holders through their excesses))

Even a great deal of the Government EQ expenditure was covered by the crown having taken out insurance. I recall the net amount spent by the Government after additional GST from private insurance claims and income tax from build activity was just a few billion...just another minor Auckland highway extension....

Lets be honest, as someone who has made large capital gain out of Auckland property and who owns a house there..the social cost in Auckland should be funded in part by those that made the gains....yet Auckland is a classic case of privatise the gain and socialise the losses...

[artemis]

Its time we moved on from "owning the quarter acre pavlova paradise" mentality. It was quaint. But in this modern age with expanding populations and strain on resources it should no longer apply. Time to have honest conversations on renting and security of tenure

Just like your willing worker and willing employer, there can be a willing landlord and a willing renter. Nothing to stop them agreeing a fixed term contract for 5 years, 20 years, whatever, and including a rent schedule. Given that landlords love good tenants, and many stay for years anyway, that honest conversation should ask why there are not more long fixed term contracts.

I think it was Harcourts in Auckland that said the average tenure of the tenancies they manage is under 2 years. Don't think they split our how many were initiated by which party, but my experience in Wellington city and fringe is that termination is mainly initiated by the tenant.

In any case, minimoke, your suggested conversation is about to begin officially. It has been announced that tenant protections and security of tenure are key to an upcoming review of the Residential Tenancies Act.

There will be consultation, and my experience of such consultation is that advocacy groups will be front and centre. I don't suppose many of those groups will have sensible data on the impacts of rents increasing and vacancies falling. Plenty of anecdata though.

[Vagabond47]

One of the unintended consequences of automations is downskilling. My two widgets makers might have really good manual widget making skills. And they are being paid a fair wage for a fair amount of productivity - we know that because we have agreed the pay so that is fair.

If wages go up employers will look to automation (or offshore). So what I could do is look at a Widget Making machine. Say I find one that can make 1,000 widgets a week. Now I don't need two skilled Widget Workers. I just need Widget Making Button Pusher worker. Not a lot of skill required for that. So that person is going to going to get paid less.

(Lets not divert from the productivity discussion - but just be aware that profits on trading attracts tax. So can be deemed productive)

If automation can replace them, then they generally aren't that skilled, common automation replaces dull repetitive tasks with automated ones. And you also forget to mention you need to retrain (or replace) one of widget makers to be a machine operator/setter, and your output volume and quality will also go up a large amount. And then yo will also need someone to service/repair the new wizz bang automation as required, who will no doubt be a contractor, but also highly skilled. Your arguments are nonsense.

[artemis]

If automation can replace them, then they generally aren't that skilled, common automation replaces dull repetitive tasks with automated ones. And you also forget to mention you need to retrain (or replace) one of widget makers to be a machine operator/setter, and your output volume and quality will also go up a large amount. And then yo will also need someone to service/repair the new wizz bang automation as required, who will no doubt be a contractor, but also highly skilled. Your arguments are nonsense.

Not so nonsensical if the new machine makes 10,000+ widgets a week. Which is quite likely.

[minimoke]

If automation can replace them, then they generally aren't that skilled, common automation replaces dull repetitive tasks with automated ones. . I old enough to remember the Typing Pool. Skilled operators and secretaries with shorthand. All gone the way of dinosaurs now. Speech recognition and word processing means a person can do all that work themselves. Applies in all sorts of jobs and all sorts of industries: data entry keyers, Librarians, Accounts people, tax people, cargo and freight handlers - all on the list of being taken over by automation. Eve lawyers today - there an app. You just put in the evidence details and it will come up with a probable judgement.

Its not the dull repetitive task jobs that are going to go. Its those jobs with "well-definedprocedures that can easily be performed by sophisticated algorithms". An interesting research paper here: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/downloads/academic/The_Future_of_Employment.pdf

Or go straight to the summary "Our model predicts that most workers in transportation and logistics occupations,together with the bulk of office and administrative support workers, andlabour in production occupations, are at risk".

The only thing slowing transition into this automated world is current fairly negotiated wages. Start accelerating the process by dictating higher wages and we'll see people losing their jobs sooner

[minimoke]

Not so nonsensical if the new machine makes 10,000+ widgets a week. Which is quite likely.Quire right (I was trying to keep the numbers simple)

Add the machine will do its own setting, and will do its own routine maintenance. Chances are the machine has been developed and made offshore and the technical non routine repair cant be done locally due to lack of volume of machines.

We need to tread very carefully when we start calling for higher wages. There will be impacts some people don't want to see.

And something that policy makers ignore is that some people simply aren't very bright. They need simple routine repetitive tasks in their employment. The policy makers are silent on where these people fit into a high wage economy.

[Bjauck]

Agree. A countries home ownership rate is not a measure of its success or of the benefits of living there.

Switzerland has a home ownership rate of 43.4%
Germany 51.9%
New Zealand 64.8%
India 86.6%
China 90%
Romania has a home ownership rate of 96.4%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

In what countries would you rather live?

How tax efficient is owning your own home in NZ? Do non-owners in effect subsidise owner-occupiers?

Historically how does after tax return on residential investment property equity compare with other forms of investment?

How do tenants' rights and tenure security in Switerland and Germany compare with those in New Zealand?

[Vagabond47]

Quire right (I was trying to keep the numbers simple)

Add the machine will do its own setting, and will do its own routine maintenance. Chances are the machine has been developed and made offshore and the technical non routine repair cant be done locally due to lack of volume of machines.



Machine will do its own setting and routine maintenance. That's just hilarious. Right beside all those cars that do their own oil and filter changes. There is no point in continuing this conversation, I have to get back to my real work, which as it happens is designing automation solutions.

[minimoke]

Machine will do its own setting and routine maintenance..You need to get out more - they are here already

[minimoke]

Right beside all those cars that do their own oil and filter changes. .I think they are called EV's

[BlackPeter]

How tax efficient is owning your own home in NZ? Do non-owners in effect subsidise owner-occupiers?

Historically how does after tax return on residential investment property equity compare with other forms of investment?

How do tenants' rights and tenure security in Switerland and Germany compare with those in New Zealand?

I just said that high home ownership rate is not necessarily something desirable and the provided stats does support this.

Re tax - efficiency: I don't know the Swiss tax rules, but your first owner occupied home in Germany (with a lower home ownership - rate than NZ) is much more tax efficient than a house in NZ ever will be - in Germany you can even write off parts of your purchase price from your other income.

Tenants rights and tenure: Not sure its all about tenants rights, but yes, both countries (Switzerland and Germany) have a much more mature home-rental market. It is over there more difficult (but not impossible) to get rid of a tenant - as long as these behave appropriately (i.e. look after the rented property and don't trash it, don't threat the neighbours and comply with any additional tenancy requirements - pay the rent on time, follow the house rules: noise restrictions, cleaning of common areas, ...). On the other hand - most of the tenants in Germany or Switzerland would look anyway much better after their rental property than they would do here.

Some things go both ways - and I don't think its all about laws, this is about culture and respect for other peoples property.

[minimoke]

- as long as these behave appropriately (i.e. look after the rented property and don't trash it, don't threat the neighbours and comply with any additional tenancy requirements - pay the rent on time, follow the house rules: noise restrictions, cleaning of common areas, ...). Those expectations would never work in New Zealand - none of them are the landlords fault

[blackcap]

I just said that high home ownership rate is not necessarily something desirable and the provided stats does support this.

Re tax - efficiency: I don't know the Swiss tax rules, but your first owner occupied home in Germany (with a lower home ownership - rate than NZ) is much more tax efficient than a house in NZ ever will be - in Germany you can even write off parts of your purchase price from your other income.

Tenants rights and tenure: Not sure its all about tenants rights, but yes, both countries (Switzerland and Germany) have a much more mature home-rental market. It is over there more difficult (but not impossible) to get rid of a tenant - as long as these behave appropriately (i.e. look after the rented property and don't trash it, don't threat the neighbours and comply with any additional tenancy requirements - pay the rent on time, follow the house rules: noise restrictions, cleaning of common areas, ...). On the other hand - most of the tenants in Germany or Switzerland would look anyway much better after their rental property than they would do here.

Some things go both ways - and I don't think its all about laws, this is about culture and respect for other peoples property.

Yes it is all about culture. In Holland the same situation applies. Tenants will also put in their own curtains, their own flooring and paint the interior of the house. But there is an expectation that they will be there for a long period of time. 10 20 years or longer etc is quite common. It is like BP said very difficult on the other hand to remove a tenant.

[Vagabond47]

I think they are called EV's

that on par with saying cars do their own horseshoe changes... :ohmy:

[Baa_Baa]

that on par with saying cars do their own horseshoe changes... :ohmy:

Those from a command and control background think (because that is their life experience) that everything they say is real, true and noble, because they once had authority to over-rule any dissension, and that those who disagree with them can be dismissed by rank or wilful ignorance expressed as absolute facts. The ever diminishing circle of inane dialogue only ends up with at best, reluctant agreement to disagree, but more commonly incessant repetitive argument supported by dubious sources, eventually culminating in ghosting.

[westerly]

Agree. A countries home ownership rate is not a measure of its success or of the benefits of living there.

Switzerland has a home ownership rate of 43.4%
Germany 51.9%
New Zealand 64.8%
India 86.6%
China 90%
Romania has a home ownership rate of 96.4%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

In what countries would you rather live?

https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/housing.html
https://www.dw.com/en/homeless-in-germanys-financial-hub-ordered-to-pay-41848829

Quoting a few figures from Wikipedia doesn't really give a true picture of the situation in any country.
On the face of the above Germany may not be a very desirable place to reside. Singapore also has a very high rate of home ownership but like Germany is highly regulated.
Auckland with it's harbour and other attractions is obviously considered by many as a good place to live. To get people to move to the more colder less populated areas would be difficult.
With modern communications it would be relatively easy to spread Government Depts. around the regions which would boost the local economies and may create a flow on effect.
Cannot see it happening though.

westerly

[minimoke]

Those from a command and control background think (because that is their life experience) that everything they say is real, true and noble, because they once had authority to over-rule any dissension, and that those who disagree with them can be dismissed by rank or wilful ignorance expressed as absolute facts. The ever diminishing circle of inane dialogue only ends up with at best, reluctant agreement to disagree, but more commonly incessant repetitive argument supported by dubious sources, eventually culminating in ghosting.All of which is a distraction form the original proposition: DOES WFF aid or hinder productivity. I have yet to see an argument supporting WFF as a positive productivity lever.

What WFF has achieved is turning even more people into Government Beneficiaries.

And while on the subject of Beneficiaries, seems 0.02% of oldies (and Bennies) have declined the opportunity to suck further on the teat by opting out of their free $700 Do Whatever You Like With It govt hand out. I wonder If Winston has opted out - I suspect he hasn't a clue he is even getting it. You cant expect sensible discussions on productivity when the Govt has no idea how it is biffing out our hard earned cash

[Joshuatree]

Those from a command and control background think (because that is their life experience) that everything they say is real, true and noble, because they once had authority to over-rule any dissension, and that those who disagree with them can be dismissed by rank or wilful ignorance expressed as absolute facts. The ever diminishing circle of inane dialogue only ends up with at best, reluctant agreement to disagree, but more commonly incessant repetitive argument supported by dubious sources, eventually culminating in ghosting.


Also occupies people short of ideas to fill their with the time.

Lets have a kitkat and look at this innovative partnerships program with the NZ govt, a logical next step in transportation a self driven all electric plane/helicopter/Drone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeFxjRMv5U8

[minimoke]

Also occupies people short of ideas to fill their with the time.

Lets have a kitkat and look at this innovative partnerships program with the NZ govt, a logical next step in transportation a self driven all electric plane/helicopter/Drone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeFxjRMv5U8Granted its cool. So was Martins JetPAck.

But I cant quite see if its home country wouldn't provide funding support why would the NZ taxpayer?

[Joshuatree]

We are shifting away from a inflated price housing mkt and immigration dependence to innovation and new ideas to export with our commodities.

ps i thought the martin jetpack was a grotesque joke promoted by a full blown narcissist but thats just my opinion.

[minimoke]

We are shifting away from a inflated price housing mkt
At present that seems to be simple market forces. Lets put aside the suppression of our ability to find innovative sales solutions to our private property sales by banning foreign buyers


and immigration dependence
To get work these foreigners need to show there are no skilled or trainable NZ'ers. Other than the ones on Student Visas - coming from one of our largest export industries.

to innovation and new ideas to export with our commodities.
I might have missed them but where are the R&D tax breaks are innovative incubator grants - other than to US companies


ps i thought the martin jetpack was a grotesque joke promoted by a full blown narcissist but thats just my opinion.No disagreement from me there

[Bjauck]

I just said that high home ownership rate is not necessarily something desirable and the provided stats does support this. The policies and environment in each country do vary. In Germany I believe the banks require large deposits so that means there has been less leveraged capital gains for owners. German banks presumably have therefore lent a greater percentage of their loan book to business.

In NZ owner occupation and private investment in rental housing has been tax effective and beneficial providing a greater leveraged tax-free capital gains for those who can afford to be owners.



Re tax - efficiency: I don't know the Swiss tax rules, but your first owner occupied home in Germany (with a lower home ownership - rate than NZ) is much more tax efficient than a house in NZ ever will be - in Germany you can even write off parts of your purchase price from your other income. I believe property tax is based on value and can be 2% or more of the house value in big cities. Is that correct?


... On the other hand - most of the tenants in Germany or Switzerland would look anyway much better after their rental property than they would do here.

Some things go both ways - and I don't think its all about laws, this is about culture and respect for other peoples property. Post-war I think there was a big push to quickly replace and provide housing. Both private and public housing was built with help from the German government. There was not the same stigma as in NZ attached to renting. With rent control and other tenancy protections and rights many people were happy to continue to remain as renters. In NZ those who could afford to buy could access the leveraged capital gains and greater security and not be beholden to unregulated rents and a looser rental market.

[BlackPeter]

The policies and environment in each country do vary. In Germany I believe the banks require large deposits so that means there has been less leveraged capital gains for owners. German banks presumably have therefore lent a greater percentage of their loan book to business.

In NZ owner occupation and private investment in rental housing has been tax effective and beneficial providing a greater leveraged tax-free capital gains for those who can afford to be owners.

I believe property tax is based on value and can be 2% or more of the house value in big cities. Is that correct?

Post-war I think there was a big push to quickly replace and provide housing. Both private and public housing was built with help from the German government. There was not the same stigma as in NZ attached to renting. With rent control and other tenancy protections and rights many people were happy to continue to remain as renters. In NZ those who could afford to buy could access the leveraged capital gains and greater security and not be beholden to unregulated rents and a looser rental market.

Not sure where this is supposed to lead ... absolutely - things are different in different countries. Still does not mean that a high home ownership rate is good or desirable in itself.

Your information re "property tax" in Germany is wrong. First - it is no "property tax", but a tax on real estate (comparable to the NZ rates). The way it is calculated is admittedly quite complicated and not fair to home owners depending on where they live. It is calculated based on the value of the property in 1964 (if the property is in the Western parts of Germany or 1935 if its in the East) and this number is multiplied by a factor defined by the district / town and another defined by the country. However - even in one example where this tax is considered as very high (check attached link, just brush up your German) would it be an annual rate of Euro 456 for a property which in 1964 would have had a value of Euro 40.000 (and which now might be worth Euro 200.000 or more).

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/datenanalyse-so-ungerecht-ist-die-grundsteuer-in-deutschland-1.3942988

I.e. even if people live in areas where the rate is considered to be really expensive it is unlikely to be much more than 0.2% of the current property value per year (or one percent of the 1964 value) - not two percent of present value.

But we better talk about the performance of the current NZ government and New Zealand (as per thread title) ... and lets face it - they promised to build plenty of houses and solve the housing crisis they talked up, but so far I don't see them delivering. Killing the construction industry, increasing everybody's wages (significant part of building costs) and diverting with all their xenophobic measures suitable construction workers as well as investors to other countries is hardly a constructive contribution to solve the problem. Most immigrants got by now that NZ under this government is not the right choice for them and vote with their feet, even if immigration service might still stamp that phrase "NZ the right choice" onto their more and more expensive visas.

[Bjauck]

Not sure where this is supposed to lead ... absolutely - things are different in different countries. Still does not mean that a high home ownership rate is good or desirable in itself.... I agree it is not in itself desirable. However in NZ Home ownership is desirable as for many decades it has been the de facto retirement plan for those who have been able to afford to own real estate. The poorer have been increasingly shut out of home ownership. Until the modest pension scheme that is kiwisaver there was little to match the tax effective returns as could be earned from leveraged home ownership and investment property ownership. So to make home ownership less desirable would necessitate policy changes in several areas.

It takes a while to tackle the problem of a failing housing and accommodation market (especially in Auckland) that is the result of inaction by previous National and Labour governments. With a housing market open to overseas investors and with Auckland's population suging, there have been winners and losers. There are landowners who have had windfall capital gains as a result; younger and poorer Aucklanders have increasingly been shut out of home ownership - resulting in many having to remain tied to Aucklands rental market with NZ rental conditions.

The non-resident foreign buyer ban is a first step. When the housing and accommodation markets have been sorted out for residents, the ban on purchasing existing housing stock could be lifted by a future goernment. Australia has restrictions on non-resident purchases of existing residences. British Columbia currently has a non-resident purchase tax I believe. Some Asian countries have non-resident restrictions too.

The Housing market, international comparisons and the current government's approach I think are pertinent to this thread.

[artemis]

..... Until the modest pension scheme that is kiwisaver there was little to match the tax effective returns as could be earned from leveraged home ownership and investment property ownership. So to make home ownership less desirable would necessitate policy changes in several areas.....

You may like to mention this to IRD as they seem to think that property investment does not have a tax advantage over other investments. Well so they have said numerous times.

In fact residential rental property is actually disadvantaged compared to other investments, including commercial property, since building depreciation was removed as an expense.

And no good saying, well, leveraged. Plenty of leveraged investments around that are not property based.

[Bjauck]

You may like to mention this to IRD as they seem to think that property investment does not have a tax advantage over other investments. Well so they have said numerous times.

In fact residential rental property is actually disadvantaged compared to other investments, including commercial property, since building depreciation was removed as an expense.

And no good saying, well, leveraged. Plenty of leveraged investments around that are not property based.

Owner occupied residential property is the biggest investment many NZ households, who can afford to buy it, have. It is a separate class. The benefits of ownership - imputed rent - is not taxable.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/imputed-rent-hidden-tax-break-homeowners-2016-9?r=US&IR=T

Perhaps they refer to the general tax rules, which are the same. In NZ, can you borrow the same percent of business valuation as you could from real estate valuation? In practice how many people could borrow the same amount of credit on a portfolio of shares as they could against real estate valued at the same amount? Hence the ability to leverage untaxed capital gains from NZ residential property, whilst being able to deduct the interest from taxable income (in the case of investor rental property).

[artemis]

Perhaps they refer to the general tax rules, which are the same. In NZ, can you borrow the same percent of business valuation as you could from real estate valuation? In practice how many people could borrow the same amount of credit on a portfolio of shares as they could against real estate valued at the same amount? Hence the ability to leverage untaxed capital gains from NZ residential property, whilst being able to deduct the interest from taxable income (in the case of investor rental property).

Shares are not the only investment that can be leveraged. Plenty of secured and unsecured loans made every day.

And the general tax rules are not the same, they disadvantage - building depreciation as mentioned, bright line rules, residential property restrictions on overseas buyers.

[Bjauck]

Shares are not the only investment that can be leveraged. Plenty of secured and unsecured loans made every day.


And the general tax rules are not the same, they disadvantage - building depreciation as mentioned, bright line rules, residential property restrictions on overseas buyers. General rules. As this is sharetrader, I was using shares as an example vis a vis real estate.


For that matter dividends are not the same as rents. Demergers and take-overs need court rulings to stop a shareholder being taxed on the capital value of their investment, which otherwise could be deemed to be a dividend! Also a NZ resident can be taxed on unrealised capital appreciation of their overseas shareholdings under the FIF rules. Specific rules vary for each investment type.


Average NZ dividend yield is higher than the average rent yield especially in Auckland....


So, NZ capital is pumped into expensive residential land with the result that NZ dividend yields are high and for want of NZ investors, good NZ companies often need to relocate overseas or risk being swallowed up by overseas purchasers.


The NZ share market is tiny for the size of the economy.

[winner69]

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has announced plans to freeze the salaries of MPs while a review of the pay-setting system is carried out. (Nz Herald)

Hope the pay setting system recommends a big pay cut

Jacinda must be worried about the polls .....taking such drastic action.

This will give the populous the warm fuzzies ....won’t it?

[Joshuatree]

Great stuff ,3% rise due. 2.5% last year. WTF should they get this year after year making the gap wider. School teachers for ex used to get the same pay in the 60's 70's and have been totally left behind hence a first strike in 24 years. Being cynical/sarcastic fits you like a glove w69. Guess we need some in the politics game:mellow:

[Joshuatree]

Auckland hospitals get $305m for repairs and upgrades The City Hospital, Starship, and Greenlane will benefit. (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/auckland-hospitals-get-305m-for-repairs-and-upgrades.html)

More good stuff from our govt, the cycleway are really transformational but i think of all those many thousands of good people who need pay increases.



Govt pledges $67m to build SkyPath cycleway It's part of a $390m investment into cycling and walking, the largest ever in NZ. (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/government-pledges-67m-to-build-skypath-cycleway.html)

[BlackPeter]

Government wastes taxpayer money to subsidize a rich mans sport and payback Winston's supporters:

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/364721/racing-industry-to-get-govt-funding-for-multiple-all-weather-tracks


National's economic development spokesman Paul Goldsmith said his party supports the racing industry but the lines are blurred when a project gets the green light simply because a coalition partner likes the sound of it.

"They should be able to make their case clear, and open and rigourous, and if it stacks up, it stacks up.

"The problem that we've got here is that the whole system is opaque and murky so it's hard to disentangle the arguments, and in that area they're not even making an argument, they're just saying we're going to do it,'' Mr Goldsmith said.

So - I guess no matter whether one likes a particular "sport" or not - quite outrageous to see a government which lost contact with its base a long time ago to put taxpayer money without proper scrutiny and process towards their special friends.

Murky times - must be time to drain the swamp!

[Joshuatree]

Im not into horse racing or gambling but it looks like a good business case there.

New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing chief executive Bernard Saundry said the industry has lost nearly $3 million in the last year due to abandoned races.
He said the economic flow-on to everyone in the industry is huge and synthetic tracks would go a long way to providing certainty for trainers and owners.

"I don't see racing as a rich man's sport. It's a sport that employs directly and indirectly more than 50,000 people, it has an economic impact of $1.6 billion a year and it has a major reach right across the North and South Island - and the export opportunity not only for horses but for people to go and explore the world.''

[minimoke]

Auckland hospitals get $305m for repairs and upgrades The City Hospital, Starship, and Greenlane will benefit. (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/auckland-hospitals-get-305m-for-repairs-and-upgrades.html)
I reckon health is a core govt service so don't have much difficulty with this spend


More good stuff from our govt, the cycleway are really transformational but i think of all those many thousands of good people who need pay increases.



Govt pledges $67m to build SkyPath cycleway It's part of a $390m investment into cycling and walking, the largest ever in NZ. (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/government-pledges-67m-to-build-skypath-cycleway.html) This is plain nuts. The only people to benefit is a minority of Auckland cyclists. This should come totally out of Auckland rates as well as a user pay toll.

[BlackPeter]

Im not into horse racing or gambling but it looks like a good business case there.

New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing chief executive Bernard Saundry said the industry has lost nearly $3 million in the last year due to abandoned races.
He said the economic flow-on to everyone in the industry is huge and synthetic tracks would go a long way to providing certainty for trainers and owners.

"I don't see racing as a rich man's sport. It's a sport that employs directly and indirectly more than 50,000 people, it has an economic impact of $1.6 billion a year and it has a major reach right across the North and South Island - and the export opportunity not only for horses but for people to go and explore the world.''

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? That's what he is paid for. So predictable - LOL.

But worse is that even the numbers from the racing industry chief promoter don't make a business case for the tax payer.

Lets assume for arguments sake it would be a reputable industry. So, he says the racing industry "lost" $3m last year due to bad weather. Not sure how he measures that, but why does this mean the taxpayer should put up $30m to allow some industry to reduce their losses, but worse why to allow some rich pricks to become richer? Whats in it for the taxpayer?

Is it now job of our government to subsidize the "losses" of any industry which might occur some? Privatizing gains and socializing losses? For sure, if taxpayers are called to pay to reduce the losses of the gambling industry, than we should as well pay for the losses of breweries, or of tobacco industry, or for the losses of the booze depot next door and of course for the losses of the mining industry (actually - for latter there would be an argument, given that the government caused them due to their unlimited incompetence).

But a more relevant question would be - why should the taxpayer cough up $30 m to support the gambling industry? Racing is one of these industries sucking money out of poor people they can't afford to spend. Racing is like smoking, drinking or taking dope - addictive and damaging to your health and your finances. Taxpayers are not just subsidizing bad habits but as well having to foot the bill to feed afterwards the children and families of gambling addicts.

Our glorious government is not just wasting tax payer money, they spend it to damage our country!

Shame ...

[777]

Any guesses on when the money runs out?

[minimoke]

Any guesses on when the money runs out?They are burning through it pretty quickly.

Its no mistake Govt announcing end of MP payrises and CEO bonuses. Its a very clear message the economy is tightening and we cannot afford sch things. It is softening us up for the inevitable tanked economy and increase in govt spending message on the back of the virtuous (we are doing our bit by having no pay rise - so no pay rises for everyone else"

[BlackPeter]

They are burning through it pretty quickly.

Its no mistake Govt announcing end of MP payrises and CEO bonuses. Its a very clear message the economy is tightening and we cannot afford sch things. It is softening us up for the inevitable tanked economy and increase in govt spending message on the back of the virtuous (we are doing our bit by having no pay rise - so no pay rises for everyone else"

Actually - while they stop the CEO bonuses, they are not really reducing the average CEO income, given that they are strengthening instead various other salary package components (sort of compensation for losing the bonus). More leave entitlements and more frequent salary reviews are just some of them.

The outcome: High performers lose their bonus and are indeed worse off. Low performers who never would have got their bonus in the first place however are rewarded - they get all the goodies without the need to work for them.

True Labor: Punish the performers and reward the non-performers!

[macduffy]

I guess all these special enquiries, commissions etc have to be paid for!

[winner69]

Intrigue surrounds who leaked that info about Bridges

Think it’s cool that many people are calling the person who sent the text a Textor

[winner69]

Bit rough that Kris Faafoi made reference to a Nat MP’s (named) mental health in Parliament this week.

As JT keeps reminding us ...join the dots ..or something like that

[minimoke]

Intrigue surrounds who leaked that info about Bridges

Think it’s cool that many people are calling the person who sent the text a Textor
I smell a by election coming up

[Joshuatree]

I agree about gambling ,hate it , note how they changed it to Gaming? Note how before a sports game now the TAB has its 30secs to give the odds., thats wrong to me promoting/mixing gambling with sport etc but not to many who enjoy it. So , there area lot of people who enjoy a controlled dabble be it at the races or elsewhere, and who are not addicts. And the facts here support it

"I don't see racing as a rich man's sport. It's a sport that employs directly and indirectly more than 50,000 people, it has an economic impact of $1.6 billion a year and it has a major reach right across the North and South Island - and the export opportunity not only for horses but for people to go and explore the world.''

[minimoke]

Actually - while they stop the CEO bonuses, they are not really reducing the average CEO income, given that they are strengthening instead various other salary package components (sort of compensation for losing the bonus). More leave entitlements and more frequent salary reviews are just some of them.

The outcome: High performers lose their bonus and are indeed worse off. Low performers who never would have got their bonus in the first place however are rewarded - they get all the goodies without the need to work for them.

True Labor: Punish the performers and reward the non-performers!How is it that TVNZ staff are getting a bonus. If they are working in a corporate world then Put it on the block, sell to highest bidder and let it operate like any other privately held business.

[iceman]

Pointless having a discussion about whether this (racing industry announcement) is sensible Government expenditure or not. We all know this is part of the price Labour pays to get to Govern alongside Winnie. He did the same for this industry when he was in with Helen. Large players in this and the bloodstock industry are very large NZ First donors. In most countries this would be called corruption

[Joshuatree]

Sure but its called a Coalition ,a great c word.;)

[minimoke]

Sure but its called a Coalition ,a great c word.;)Like Clare Curran. C0ckup and Chucked

[777]

Like Clare Curran. C0ckup and Chucked

But not chucked far. Keeps all her perks but outside cabinet. Stated on the radio today that she and Jacinda used to flat together.

[Joshuatree]

"Stated on the radio today that she and Jacinda used to flat together." lol thanks for the funny to end the week 777

[minimoke]

But not chucked far. Keeps all her perks but outside cabinet. Stated on the radio today that she and Jacinda used to flat together.Kept her Broadcasting job - despite this being the first offence. Should loose that as well as obviously no good at communication. (probably no better talent to replace her)

[777]

"Stated on the radio today that she and Jacinda used to flat together." lol thanks for the funny to end the week 777

Restated by Barry Soper about 10 minutes ago. Challenge him, not me.

[Joshuatree]

Im not challenging you but i find it hilarious, the association/ inference/ connection; i mean what can two flatmates get up to that is illegal, immoral or makes you fat?lol . Both enjoying camomile tea?

[Joshuatree]

Great to see things taking shape with more detail and planning going on.

Where the new state houses will be built The Government has revealed where it plans to build 6400 new state and community houses. (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/where-the-new-state-houses-will-be-built.html)

[777]

Promises. Wait to see if they eventuate. Little have so far.

And a link from the page

Auckland 'nimbys' who don't like state housing can leave - Phil Twyford

Idiot.

[Joshuatree]

Year let them live in cars ehh 777 who cares/ who shares You've got a deep moat around your place.?
Cheers by the way.

[777]

When they get to the first 100 houses I will reassess the numbers they quote. So far very little to show. Every time Twyford opens his mouth I cringe.

[fungus pudding]

When they get to the first 100 houses I will reassess the numbers they quote. So far very little to show. Every time Twyford opens his mouth I cringe.

Me too. I thought he'd be first to get a decent biff around the ear, Hipkins in hot pursuit, but Curran beat them to it.

[Joshuatree]

Great to see jacinda being tough on not one but two diary entry lapses. i wonder where craic would place this in the justice scales?

You're nominated to track progress 777 but please keep up and give us progress results and numbers as they arise , thanks.

[Joshuatree]

things could be worse .

l.php (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FNZJulieMarshal l%2Fstatus%2F1032707433716535296%3Fs%3D04&h=AT2GeXTXu4QxZzPz2pEeoFxICB9qTNtS0gUxAYuW5rn_wgcP uPjr5xzGNZbgqBkJOdT1r2SK6gEwWlM15d8hWhj5m14OigTL6K xOQgnm8a5cus_XAMUedYqVodFyQ4ZFfO2HtHNm5N6FwgCCNJQq mtpDC-0qBD6bTuHahlPUCPKJuUZ3TMt94s2lugZ5daqoH-WPxYyvPo7-s5PH_wljEm2TTFPvgF8SMPvgyRJ6QIBd_PX-EA1vJXoD30brMMSxnirlMxxA0Bi7Sm69rllq5ITlkRaZmCxlc-kOIJ6kxBVPGQWSc-CEVfw_m01HogQIeosoTG5VJaXOUcpu5Dls1_xm723V3S9ksyV-zp-hNqsXi_xbHwsf5jBYbmmdJBPsKz0L-na0Stc9m4jKSrNaZaj0VA)

[iceman]

Great to see jacinda being tough on not one but two diary entry lapses. i wonder where craic would place this in the justice scales?

You're nominated to track progress 777 but please keep up and give us progress results and numbers as they arise , thanks.

They weren't just "diary entry lapses" JT. She kept them out of her diary on purpose and lied to Parliament about the meetings. The Minister for Open Government !. What a joke and even more of a joke that she hasn't been fired from all her portfolios. A big mistake by Jacinda that will come back to haunt her

[winner69]

They weren't just "diary entry lapses" JT. She kept them out of her diary on purpose and lied to Parliament about the meetings. The Minister for Open Government !. What a joke and even more of a joke that she hasn't been fired from all her portfolios. A big mistake by Jacinda that will come back to haunt her

What sort of pay cut did Clare get?

[shasta]

What sort of pay cut did Clare get?

Cant find the article i saw yesterday but around 50k drop plus loss of a few perks/admin expenses

[minimoke]

They weren't just "diary entry lapses" JT. She kept them out of her diary on purpose and lied to Parliament about the meetings. The Minister for Open Government !. What a joke and even more of a joke that she hasn't been fired from all her portfolios. A big mistake by Jacinda that will come back to haunt herBiggest joke is she met with Handley in the first place. Thats is worth instant dismissal from all portfolios I would have though. Steering Snakk and SkyTV into oblivion is not someone we want leading our technology space - does Curran not know this?

[winner69]

Biggest joke is she met with Handley in the first place. Thats is worth instant dismissal from all portfolios I would have though. Steering Snakk and SkyTV into oblivion is not someone we want leading our technology space - does Curran not know this?

“Affairs” are not new for our anthropologist Clare

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Curran

[iceman]

What sort of pay cut did Clare get?

$ 46,168 according to the Herald

[Bjauck]

I reckon health is a core govt service so don't have much difficulty with this spend
[URL="https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/government-pledges-67m-to-build-skypath-cycleway.html"]
This is plain nuts. The only people to benefit is a minority of Auckland cyclists. This should come totally out of Auckland rates as well as a user pay toll.

How much does the motor vehicle only harbour bridge cost to maintain?

The Skypath would be a great asset and visitor highlight - it's for walkers, wheelchairs as well as cycists. We need a greater push for more cycling friendly routes in Auckland - anything to help reduce the Auckland devotion to single occupant car travel.

[minimoke]

The Skypath would be a great asset and visitor highlight - it's for walkers, wheelchairs as well as cycists. We need a greater push for more cycling friendly routes in Auckland - anything to help reduce the Auckland devotion to single occupant car travel.I Dont doubt that at all. But if Aucklanders want it they should pay for it.

[Joshuatree]

Great game and great respect for our PM
"Perenara, meanwhile, confirmed he had given Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern his All Blacks jersey when she came in to the changing-room after the test.
"She's special to my family and to my community so that's something that was important for me to do," he said.

[BlackPeter]

Great game and great respect for our PM
"Perenara, meanwhile, confirmed he had given Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern his All Blacks jersey when she came in to the changing-room after the test.
"She's special to my family and to my community so that's something that was important for me to do," he said.

LOL - somehow they are all the same - after Sir John its now Cindy's turn in trying to take a bath in the All Black's glory, sniff at their worn shirts and hoping that some of the All Black fame magically rubs off.

Only a hypocrite would run down one of these marketing events and praise the other ;);

[minimoke]

Great game and great respect for our PMShameful - the pair of them should have been at home looking after baby.

[Joshuatree]

They are .Very normal for PM's to attend big games. What wasn't normal was when Key was using Ritchie Mcaw politically off the game.
I think TJ is a top guy myself and setting a good example to us all.

[minimoke]

They are .Very normal for PM's to attend big games. .Its not normal for PM to have a brand new baby. Interesting to see where she saw her priority. Tucking baby in at night or a photo op.

I have no view on TJ - its his jersey to do what he likes. I'm not sure its the best use he could have made of it but there you go.

[Joshuatree]

TJ instigated giving his jersey and Kieran Read did the same giving her spontaneous hug. Great stuff, great (but too one-sided)game.

[minimoke]

TJ instigated giving his jersey and Kieran Read did the same giving her spontaneous hug. .Endorphins kicking in will do that to you.

[BlackPeter]

TJ instigated giving his jersey and Kieran Read did the same giving her spontaneous hug. Great stuff, great (but too one-sided)game.

JT - looks like you are milking this event to the utmost extend.

Now - we all know that the current populist watermelon government has not many achievements to crow about, but I guess your focus on this for the work of this government absolutely irrelevant meeting with the AB's makes the lack of real achievements so much more visible to everybody.

Is this what you intend to do :p?

[Joshuatree]

You cant keep your love under a rock forever BP.. Sour losers stuck in a black cloud of ill wiil to their great cost.

[BlackPeter]

You cant keep your love under a rock forever BP.. Sour losers stuck in a black cloud of ill wiil to their great cost.

They say - "never fall in love with a stock", and I guess the same is true with a government. Love makes you lose your good instincts and you only will notice that they sold you out when it is too late.

Be glad that there are still some level headed people on this thread who see the government for what it really is. If you are not sure what I am talking about - read "the emperors new clothes".

[Joshuatree]

Level headed Allbacks doing some very cool spontaneous gestures, a great vibe to observe imo.;)

[winner69]

Level headed Allbacks doing some very cool spontaneous gestures, a great vibe to observe imo.;)

TJ was the ‘chosen’ one as it was deemed his jersey would be the best fit for her.

And good to see Tew on the band wagon as well saying rugby needs zillions from the government.

Being Minister of Sport as well as Finance is a good lurk I reckon

Will we be seeing Jacinda in jockey’s silks next .....when they open one of these new racetracks

[Joshuatree]

No that will be W:t_up:inston lol .

[Bjauck]

I Dont doubt that at all. But if Aucklanders want it they should pay for it.LOL. If that, then all infrastructure and facilities should be user pays...All Bridges should be user-pay. There should be tolls for all motorways, congestion charging at peak times, remote communities should pay for the full cost of bridges, telecoms and infrastructure that support them. At the end of the day, NZ has been developed using cross-subsidies.

[Joshuatree]

I think Bridges has an imminent use by date so dont think there will be many candidates for user pay for Bridges:D

Meanwhile at the business meeting this morning.......

Westpac New Zealand chief executive David McLean told the audience to "get over the election result" and get on with business


Great to see CEO of AIR leading the business advisory council too.
PM announces new business council to combat falling confidence (https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/365075/pm-announces-new-business-advisory-council)

[winner69]

I think Bridges has an imminent use by date so dont think there will be many candidates for user pay for Bridges:D

Meanwhile at the business meeting this morning.......

Westpac New Zealand chief executive David McLean told the audience to "get over the election result" and get on with business


Great to see CEO of AIR leading the business advisory council too.
PM announces new business council to combat falling confidence (https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/365075/pm-announces-new-business-advisory-council)

Good for her to listen to big end of town (who probably screw the government for more of something)

I doubt the small to medium sized business owners who make up a decent part of the economy will be impressed

[BlackPeter]

Great to see jacinda being tough on not one but two diary entry lapses. i wonder where craic would place this in the justice scales?

You're nominated to track progress 777 but please keep up and give us progress results and numbers as they arise , thanks.

Tough - really? I guess if you remove the blinkers, there are other ways to look at it:

http://act.org.nz/tag/free-press/


A WEAK PRIME MINISTER

Jacinda Ardern showed a serious lack of spine on Friday afternoon by failing to fire Clare Curran. Curran has been dishonest with the PM and the public about who she has had ministerial meetings with. She should have been sacked, but the PM couldn’t bring herself to do so, keeping her on as a Minister outside Cabinet and only stripping her of a couple of portfolios.

SCRAP THE PORTFOLIOS INSTEAD

What does the Open Government and Government Digital Services Minister actually do? Even Wellington insiders wouldn’t be able to tell you. We clearly don’t need these highly-paid and redundant portfolios. ACT’s Smaller Government Bill would limit the number of Ministers to 20, providing greater focus and accountability.

[Joshuatree]

Totally appropriate and showing her leadership with Curran. Well done , on we go. Bridges unfort a fail not sorting out Collins with her fake news recently, thats weak.
PM: Clare Curran sacking from cabinet was proportionate (https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/365086/pm-clare-curran-sacking-from-cabinet-was-proportionate)

[minimoke]

LOL. If that, then all infrastructure and facilities should be user pays...All Bridges should be user-pay. There should be tolls for all motorways, congestion charging at peak times, remote communities should pay for the full cost of bridges, telecoms and infrastructure that support them. At the end of the day, NZ has been developed using cross-subsidies.infrastructure is for the use and benefit of many. a cycle lane across this bridge meets neither

[minimoke]

Totally appropriate and showing her leadership with Curran. Well done , on we go. Bridges unfort a fail not sorting out Collins with her fake news recently, thats weak.
PM: Clare Curran sacking from cabinet was proportionate (https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/365086/pm-clare-curran-sacking-from-cabinet-was-proportionate)This is likely to end up another botched appointment process like the Police guy. "proportional" = nice word to fob us off. Cuaran had secret meetings while minister of broadcasting and Ministry of Transparency. Curan didn't learn from this first significant mistake. That is incompetence. A proportional response would be to remove her from all portfolios requiring competence.

[Joshuatree]

Blah blah blah , keep looking tip your half empty glass out over your feet.

[BlackPeter]

Blah blah blah , keep looking tip your half empty glass out over your feet.

You sure this is the best you can do?

[Joshuatree]

Thats the worst you guys can come up with really , havn't you got better things to do are you fiddling, loitering with bored intent.
Celebrate what you can do for your country not try to tear it down at any opp.
Dont forget to put the toothpaste cap on, really fellas get a life , you've only got one shot.

[fungus pudding]

Thats the worst you guys can come up with really , havn't you got better things to do are you fiddling, loitering with bored intent.
Celebrate what you can do for your country not try to tear it down at any opp.
Dont forget to put the toothpaste cap on, really fellas get a life , you've only got one shot.

A bit more water with it might be the answer JT.

[Bjauck]

infrastructure is for the use and benefit of many. a cycle lane across this bridge meets neither Just about every motorist could be a cyclist, pedestrian or wheelchair user. Probably more than vice versa.

[Joshuatree]

A bit more water with it might be the answer JT.
Grins , yeah water of life, or a finger of whiskey , stoking up the fires of ones imagination, cheers tonite.

[minimoke]

More opaqueness from the transparent government "We'll just keep the Labour Sex Camp report under wraps thanks very much".

Who is being held accountable for allowing alcohol to be served to minors. Who is being held accountable for enabling an alleged predator to roam. Who is being held accountable for not going to police in first instance. Who is being held accountable for not informing the PM (yeah right!)

[winner69]

More opaqueness from the transparent government "We'll just keep the Labour Sex Camp report under wraps thanks very much".

Who is being held accountable for allowing alcohol to be served to minors. Who is being held accountable for enabling an alleged predator to roam. Who is being held accountable for not going to police in first instance. Who is being held accountable for not informing the PM (yeah right!)

Before the courts Mini .....but more could be said about the points you raised

If Clare was still Minister of Open Government she would have insisted more was realeased.