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minimoke
20-10-2017, 07:28 AM
So Winston has been able to bend Labour over further than National and has decided to support Labour as a coalition partner in the new government.
New Cabinet is likely to be made up of 14 (or 16 - its a moving number) Labour Ministers and 4 NZ First Ministers.

Labours targets for teh next 100 days are :

* Make the first year of tertiary education or training fees free and increase student allowances and living cost loans by $50 a week from January 1, 2018
* Pass the Healthy Homes Guarantee Bill
* Ban overseas speculators from buying existing residential properties
* Stop the sell-off of state houses
* Legislate to pass the Families Package, including the Winter Fuel Payment, Best Start and increases to Paid Parental Leave, to take effect from 1 July 2018. The families package replaces National's April 1 tax cuts.
* Introduce legislation to set a child poverty reduction target
* Resume contributions to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund
* Set up a ministerial inquiry on mental health
* Hold a Clean Waterways Summit of all key stakeholders
* Increase the minimum wage to $16.50/hour, to take effect April 1, 2018, and introduce legislation new industrial relations legislation

So lets see what happens. o far we have already seen a fall in the NZD which if it lasts will see the cost of petrol go up which wil have an immediate negative impact on the poor. Just waiting to see how the share market reacts.

And where are the greens. No where to be seen thats where. They have ended up in a supply and confidence agreement with 3 ministers outside cabinet. To be confirmed they seem to be Climate Change, Child Poverty and maybe waterways.

minimoke
20-10-2017, 11:37 AM
And heres the confidential concessions the Greens get. Opps they managed to leak that ahead of time. Not a good start!


Significant climate action with a shift to a net-zero carbon emissions economy by 2050 (specific focuses will be on transport, energy and primary industries).
The establishment of an independent climate commission.
Support for a shift in farming to more sustainable land use.
Overhaul of the welfare system, removing "excessive sanctions" and a review of Working for Families.
Increase to conservation budget.
New water quality measures.
Free counselling for under-25s and access to mental health services and support for everyone.
Special needs education access.
Progress to end gender pay gap in public service.
A reduction in number of students living in hardship.
Increase in funding for drug and alcohol addictions services and a referendum on the personal use of cannabis by the 2020 election.

fungus pudding
20-10-2017, 01:02 PM
And heres the confidential concessions the Greens get. Opps they managed to leak that ahead of time. Not a good start!


Significant climate action with a shift to a net-zero carbon emissions economy by 2050 (specific focuses will be on transport, energy and primary industries).
The establishment of an independent climate commission.
Support for a shift in farming to more sustainable land use.
Overhaul of the welfare system, removing "excessive sanctions" and a review of Working for Families.
Increase to conservation budget.
New water quality measures.
Free counselling for under-25s and access to mental health services and support for everyone.
Special needs education access.
Progress to end gender pay gap in public service.
A reduction in number of students living in hardship.
Increase in funding for drug and alcohol addictions services and a referendum on the personal use of cannabis by the 2020 election.


I certainly hope they end gender pay gap in public services by reducing all male's salaries.

minimoke
20-10-2017, 01:14 PM
I certainly hope they end gender pay gap in public services by reducing all male's salaries.
I dont hold out much hope of the succeeding at any level. They cant even get the gender balance right on their own party list. They need to bin a few of the women and bring in a couple more men.

minimoke
22-10-2017, 07:19 AM
Oh dear. This isn't starting too well. Looks like NZ First is set to scrap the ocean sanctuary around the Kermadecs. Good on ya Greens! (Though arguably Greens, National and ACT could still push the legislation through)

fungus pudding
22-10-2017, 07:48 AM
Oh dear. This isn't starting too well. Looks like NZ First is set to scrap the ocean sanctuary around the Kermadecs. Good on ya Greens! (Though arguably Greens, National and ACT could still push the legislation through)

Are you hinting that the three party marriage may not be totally harmonious? Hard to believe!

minimoke
22-10-2017, 08:31 AM
Are you hinting that the three party marriage may not be totally harmonious? Hard to believe!
What could go wrong? Especially since they haven't seen the nz first / labour coalition agreement yet.

winner69
22-10-2017, 08:59 AM
Oh dear. This isn't starting too well. Looks like NZ First is set to scrap the ocean sanctuary around the Kermadecs. Good on ya Greens! (Though arguably Greens, National and ACT could still push the legislation through)

Does that mean fishing can continue out that way

Maybe some on NZF Board happy with that

fungus pudding
22-10-2017, 10:10 AM
Does that mean fishing can continue out that way

Maybe some on NZF Board happy with that

Yes and yes.

Jonboyz
22-10-2017, 10:21 AM
Can NZF withdraw/cancel the coalition agreement at some stage, or are they bound to uphold it until the next election?

fungus pudding
22-10-2017, 10:30 AM
Can NZF withdraw/cancel the coalition agreement at some stage, or are they bound to uphold it until the next election?

Anything can happen.

winner69
22-10-2017, 11:14 AM
Yes and yes.

Re kermadec fishing

If neo-liberalism is loosely defined as just a bunch of people doing things in their own self interest .....then neo-liberalism hasn’t been finally put to rest by this new government

fungus pudding
22-10-2017, 12:01 PM
Re kermadec fishing

If neo-liberalism is loosely defined as just a bunch of people doing things in their own self interest .....then neo-liberalism hasn’t been finally put to rest by this new government

Surely you're not suggesting Winston First would be acting in his own interest!

minimoke
22-10-2017, 03:49 PM
Climsae change was such a priority under National that the deputy prime minister held that portfolio. I wonder if winston will get it ?

fungus pudding
22-10-2017, 04:42 PM
Climsae change was such a priority under National that the deputy prime minister held that portfolio. I wonder if winston will get it ?

Imagine the reaction from the Kermits if they don't get that one

iceman
22-10-2017, 05:17 PM
It is quite incredible that Jacinda has agreed with NZF on this big issue for the Greens, without telling them. Gareth Hughes has put a lot of work into this and pushed it hard. He was also passed over for a "Ministerial" portfolio. I'm sure he's not a happy chap right now, before this motley crew even takes office !!

I did note with interest before the election that Talley's were one of the largest corporate donors to NZF but I'm sure that has nothing to do with this announcement !!!!! To be fair, they always donate some money to most of the bigger parties. And surely this new Leftie Government does not start by scrapping our largest Ocean Sanctuary as a price for political donations. Imagine if this had been National, eh EZ et al ?

But it looks like Jacinda was more into saying "Yes Sir" to Winston's demands than negotiating with him. Inexperience on her behalf ?

winner69
22-10-2017, 06:08 PM
The Aussies just don’t get it

https://amp.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/new-zealands-labour-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-makes-the-country-a-laughing-stock/news-story/816151a11da079275bd1a877d7386d03

minimoke
22-10-2017, 06:08 PM
Imagine the reaction from the Kermits if they don't get that onegreens get jobs outside of cabinet - that is the unimportant " throw them a bone " portfolios

Baa_Baa
22-10-2017, 07:07 PM
greens get jobs outside of cabinet - that is the unimportant " throw them a bone " portfolios

That's only until the Greens realise that they are as impotent in ministerial posts out of cabinet as they have been out of government for decades, and still have no mojo to make stuff-all difference either way.

It's a sad outcome for the Greens, being the lapdog of Labour and on the outside with NZ First. The first important decision that comes up in Cabinet, the Greens will be in the unenviable position of towing the line as a confidence and supply 'partner', despite their misgivings, or playing hard ball and risk be ostracised to political obscurity.

I predict it will happen fairly quickly, or maybe it's already happening with the Kermandecs.

The Greens are doomed, and so with it the unholy coalition with Labour and NZ First, in terms of pushing through legislation. Any sign of consensus will in fact be a simmering pile of festering sores that will in time rend the unlikely coalition, let alone the notion of 'partners'.

winner69
23-10-2017, 06:35 AM
Been really good weather since Jacinda took over ....jeez the garden needs some water

fungus pudding
23-10-2017, 07:27 AM
Been really good weather since Jacinda took over ....jeez the garden needs some water

What country do you live in?

winner69
23-10-2017, 07:34 AM
What country do you live in?

New Zealand - no rain since Jacinda was anointed and warmer than usual

Plants appreciated the drink I just gave them

Hope I don’t get taxed for doing that

fungus pudding
23-10-2017, 07:38 AM
New Zealand - no rain since Jacinda was anointed and warmer than usual

Plants appreciated the drink I just gave them

Hope I don’t get taxed for doing that

Been pouring down south, but it doesn't go through a water meter - yet.

iceman
23-10-2017, 08:09 AM
This would be really interesting http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11935754
National could lodge a member's bill in Parliament to revive the Kermedec Ocean sanctuary. If they did, they'd only need the Greens to vote for it to pass it into law. Would the Greens vote against it ?? Interesting times already :-)
If it passed into law that way, Winston would regard the coalition agreement broken by Labour as the couldn' t keep the Greens in check

Beagle
23-10-2017, 10:56 AM
For those who don't know, (and I will focus simply on the $48,000 band as that's the closest to the national average wage) fiscal creep is the process whereby as wages gradually go up over many years more or less in line with inflation the tax bands at which point people pay more tax stay the same for many many years so gradually more and more people pay higher tax as they creep into higher tax bans through fiscal creep.

The current wide tax band of $14,000 - $48,000 wherein people pay tax at 17.5% was scheduled to go up significantly under National to realign it to where it was many years ago.

One of Labour's first act's will be to increase taxation as they will reverse the enacted legislation expanding this scope of this tax band. In effect more and more modest income earners will be paying tax at 30% on anything they earn over $48,000 plus 15% GST and if you don't have any kids then tough luck because you'll miss out on any assistance that Labour's family assistance package will provide. In effect by the time you take into account local government taxes and taxes on things like petrol, tobacco and alcohol and duty on some products most people will pay an effective tax rate of over 50% for every dollar they earn over $48,000. I hope you folks are as outraged about this as I am. When the state gets more than you do from your earnings the system is broken !!!!

Just to be clear, Tax is increasing on 1 April 2018 under the Labour lead coalition.

777
23-10-2017, 11:26 AM
The Greens voted for the change but Labour said it was a huge tax reduction for the rich. Go figure.

ratkin
23-10-2017, 11:52 AM
Just to be clear, Tax is increasing on 1 April 2018 under the Labour lead coalition.

Nothing wrong with paying more tax, it is what they do with those taxes that is the important thing.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate (https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate)

Look at this list, generally the countries that look after their people are near the top. The obsession with tax in this country is unhealthy. Less is not always better

couta1
23-10-2017, 01:17 PM
Nothing wrong with paying more tax, it is what they do with those taxes that is the important thing.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate (https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate)

Look at this list, generally the countries that look after their people are near the top. The obsession with tax in this country is unhealthy. Less is not always better That list is too simplistic and only accounts for personal income tax, NZ is highly taxed once you total up all the various taxes aside from personal income tax. I'm with Beagle, once your paying over 50% of your income as tax, it's a crime.

minimoke
25-10-2017, 02:15 PM
Gotta love Winston. He's going to get one bilion trees planted. I presume he knows Forestry is one of NZ's most dangerous industries. And who is he going to get toe plant the trees. Well it aint going to be immigrants - so that only leaves the unemployed. Ahh - now I see how the coalition is going to reduce the numbers of unemployed!

Zaphod
25-10-2017, 02:55 PM
Gotta love Winston. He's going to get one bilion trees planted. I presume he knows Forestry is one of NZ's most dangerous industries. And who is he going to get toe plant the trees. Well it aint going to be immigrants - so that only leaves the unemployed. Ahh - now I see how the coalition is going to reduce the numbers of unemployed!

I think we'll also see them funnelled en mass back into education. During the time of the last Labour Gov, I was working for a large PTE. We saw a huge influx of students as Labour threw vast sums of cash at any tertiary educator that moved (private & public), then proclaimed excellent low unemployment figures. Some PTE and public institutions were subsequently chastised as running low-value courses (remember the newspaper reading course?). The TEC become much more outcomes focused from about 2010 onwards, but that could change.

macduffy
25-10-2017, 03:03 PM
Gotta love Winston. He's going to get one bilion trees planted. I presume he knows Forestry is one of NZ's most dangerous industries. And who is he going to get toe plant the trees. Well it aint going to be immigrants - so that only leaves the unemployed. Ahh - now I see how the coalition is going to reduce the numbers of unemployed!

Well, it worked in the 1930's and set the scene for the extensive radiata pine plantations that have been the resource for NZ's timber/paper industry. There's been a lot of worse ideas!

minimoke
25-10-2017, 03:30 PM
Well, it worked in the 1930's and set the scene for the extensive radiata pine plantations that have been the resource for NZ's timber/paper industry. There's been a lot of worse ideas!
Excellent. Today I've established we are going back to 1950's house building, 1930's forestry planting and 1970's industrial award setting. Nothing like taking three steps back to go one step forward.

t.rexjr
25-10-2017, 03:44 PM
Today I've established we are going back to 1950's house building

New builds will be for our international citizens. Kiwi's will have to settle for the used housing stock...

winner69
25-10-2017, 03:51 PM
Gotta love Winston. He's going to get one bilion trees planted. I presume he knows Forestry is one of NZ's most dangerous industries. And who is he going to get toe plant the trees. Well it aint going to be immigrants - so that only leaves the unemployed. Ahh - now I see how the coalition is going to reduce the numbers of unemployed!

No mini - efficiencies and productivity and all that - ROBOTS will plant the billions of trees.

Look out - might need your front lawn if they run out of space.

minimoke
26-10-2017, 11:24 AM
Giving credit where it is due. Labour have agreed to increase Teina Poras compo payment. Let that be a lesson to the police and prosecution who waste our money with dodgy investigations, woeful prosecutions and compo to compensate.

Joshuatree
26-10-2017, 11:43 AM
Watched the swearing in ceremony on CNBC live this morning. Gives me great optimism and pride in this govt despite Winstons presence. I think this will be his best performance actually, he will have learnt from past stuffups and really will want to go out leaving his country in a better place ,a part of his legacy.
Jacinda looks to be a great leader , having her priorities in the right place with people coming first.

The reality atm is we have a divided country with lots of disgruntled, bitter national supporters who are being encouraged by their party to continue in this vein in a divide and conquer at any cost strategy . Well i hope that more folks are into supporting and collaborating with this govt who are doing the same and leading by example. Early days i know but I'm optimistic that we have the makings of a great era where values will enhance our lives over a heartless business agenda run by the previous govt. Collaboraters or Haters, think about whats better for all.

ratkin
26-10-2017, 11:46 AM
No mini - efficiencies and productivity and all that - ROBOTS will plant the billions of trees.

Look out - might need your front lawn if they run out of space.

Billion trees is nothing. India planted 66 Million in Twelve hours !! World gone planting crazy

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/india-plant-66-million-trees-12-hours-environment-campaign-madhya-pradesh-global-warming-climate-a7820416.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/india-plant-66-million-trees-12-hours-environment-campaign-madhya-pradesh-global-warming-climate-a7820416.html)

minimoke
26-10-2017, 12:30 PM
Billion trees is nothing. India planted 66 Million in Twelve hours !! World gone planting crazy

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/india-plant-66-million-trees-12-hours-environment-campaign-madhya-pradesh-global-warming-climate-a7820416.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/india-plant-66-million-trees-12-hours-environment-campaign-madhya-pradesh-global-warming-climate-a7820416.html)
Just the kind of headline environmentalists love. Because it distracts from the real issue which is population growth.

66 million trees - humbug! There will be another 15,000,000 indians contributing carbon to the atmosphere in the next 12 months. And by 2024 they are expected to equal china's population before maxing out with 1,700,000,000 indians by 2060. (up from today's 1,339m)

Our billion trees (its actually only half this as we are already planning on planting .5b) will do absolutely diddly squat for climate change. The only thing it is likely to achieve is shift the environmental feel good vote from the Greens to NZ First.

minimoke
26-10-2017, 12:40 PM
Gotta love Winston. He's going to get one bilion trees planted. I presume he knows Forestry is one of NZ's most dangerous industries. And who is he going to get toe plant the trees. Well it aint going to be immigrants - so that only leaves the unemployed. Ahh - now I see how the coalition is going to reduce the numbers of unemployed!
Whoa - stop this bus. we need to get off. A new report out today by the Royal Society says climate change will see boosts in pollen counts and this will worsen hayfever symptoms and children's stress will increase to those levels when living under threat of nuclear calamity. Some plants were expected to release eight-times more pollen by 2100, compared to in 2000. The last thing we need to be doing is planting more pollen generating trees! (and thats putting aside the environmental destruction caused by wildlings)

minimoke
27-10-2017, 05:58 AM
Oh dear. This is a worry. Jacinda is telling students next year is on her (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98268025/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-to-high-schoolers-next-years-on-me)

Actually its not. Its on you and me as we are the ones paying the taxes that will fund this. I hope Jacinda always has front of mind is that every dollar she spends used to belong to someone else. Its not hers

kiora
27-10-2017, 07:23 AM
Gotta love Winston. He's going to get one bilion trees planted. I presume he knows Forestry is one of NZ's most dangerous industries. And who is he going to get toe plant the trees. Well it aint going to be immigrants - so that only leaves the unemployed. Ahh - now I see how the coalition is going to reduce the numbers of unemployed!

Yep,makes sense
& more pollution in waterways
The effects of pine pollen on the quality of fresh water in the Northern Hemisphere is the subject of a report called ‘Effects of pollen leaching and microbial degradation on organic carbon and nutrient availability in lake water’ by scientists Stefan Rosel, Anna RychÅ‚a, Christian Wurzbacher and Hans-Peter Grossart.

Their report says: “The role of pollen for biogeochemical cycling in aquatic systems seems to be greatly underrated”.

The report goes on to say: “The potentially large amount of organic carbon and nutrients introduced by pollen can fertilise freshwater ecosystems”.

craic
27-10-2017, 09:11 AM
I live in the middle of a pine forest. for a week or two we are covered in clouds of pollen. Everything turns yellow. Then the thick layer of pollen washes off the roofs and down into the water tank and we drink it. Now I know why I am getting fat/er - all that "organic carbon and nutrients. And I thought it was just too much smooth Tennessee whisky?

justakiwi
28-10-2017, 09:32 AM
Watched the swearing in ceremony on CNBC live this morning. Gives me great optimism and pride in this govt despite Winstons presence. I think this will be his best performance actually, he will have learnt from past stuffups and really will want to go out leaving his country in a better place ,a part of his legacy.
Jacinda looks to be a great leader , having her priorities in the right place with people coming first.

The reality atm is we have a divided country with lots of disgruntled, bitter national supporters who are being encouraged by their party to continue in this vein in a divide and conquer at any cost strategy . Well i hope that more folks are into supporting and collaborating with this govt who are doing the same and leading by example. Early days i know but I'm optimistic that we have the makings of a great era where values will enhance our lives over a heartless business agenda run by the previous govt. Collaboraters or Haters, think about whats better for all.

I agree. Let them get on with the job and give them a chance to prove their worth. Jacinda is a hell of a lot smarter than people seem to think. She’s not stupid and she’s no pushover. I think the Jacinda/Winston combination has the potential to work extremely well.

RGR367
28-10-2017, 11:24 AM
........................ I think the Jacinda/Winston combination has the potential to work extremely well.

Or not. But we'll give this tandem, one that is bias for everything that is foreign and most especially for chinese and one that is inexperienced, a chance. And hoping that gut feel is wrong again this time for this is going to be a very expensive "getting to know them" for NZ.

winner69
28-10-2017, 12:14 PM
The girls getting paid as much as the boys for playing rugby for NZ will be an interesting debate.

fungus pudding
28-10-2017, 12:51 PM
The girls getting paid as much as the boys for playing rugby for NZ will be an interesting debate.

And all male singers should be paid as much as Lorde.

777
28-10-2017, 01:59 PM
But what happens when 50% of the All Blacks have to be female?

winner69
28-10-2017, 02:05 PM
But what happens when 50% of the All Blacks have to be female?

Aaron will be happy

fungus pudding
28-10-2017, 02:59 PM
But what happens when 50% of the All Blacks have to be female?

It will make for some spectacular tackling opportunities, and much longer scrum times.

minimoke
28-10-2017, 03:03 PM
I would prefer some positive discrimination to get the Greens caucus looking a bit more gender balanced.

Joshuatree
28-10-2017, 03:15 PM
It will make for some spectacular tackling opportunities, and much longer scrum times.

Yes lol. The ref will be blowing it up for boring in and offside foreplay .

W69I think its more about them getting paid something for their world cup effort rather than nothing which is plain wrong.

minimoke
28-10-2017, 04:26 PM
W69I think its more about them getting paid something for their world cup effort rather than nothing which is plain wrong.
You are best to negotiate your terms before embarking on a deal. If a team agrees to play a game for free then that is the deal.

GTM 3442
28-10-2017, 06:49 PM
But what happens when 50% of the All Blacks have to be female?

As long as all teams are subject to the same constraints or have the same advantages, it will all cancel out.

Joshuatree
01-11-2017, 10:09 AM
Maybe National should just stop talking (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/maybe-national-should-just-stop-talking) . i hope they don't as they will eventually implode and then renew as they surely need to, getting rid of Joyce for one who is now an ineffectual natural born spinner with no substance. Same with Bill even more so but who to replace with?

Joshuatree
01-11-2017, 02:08 PM
'Stop whinging', farming sector told (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/country/342774/stop-whinging-farming-sector-told)
"How do we start thinking about sensible regulation that actually protects our farmers from themselves ... look at all the expansion of dairy into places which are absolutely unsuitable for it ... over the next 10 to 15 years it's going to have to be unwound."

Joshuatree
02-11-2017, 10:36 AM
Ardern makes list of most powerful women in global politics (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/342900/ardern-makes-list-of-most-powerful-women-in-global-politics) ;)

peat
02-11-2017, 10:54 AM
Ardern makes list of most powerful women in global politics (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/342900/ardern-makes-list-of-most-powerful-women-in-global-politics) ;)
its a bit soon.
kind of like Obamas peace prize.
give it to them early before they actually achieve anything

lol at the Queen getting beaten by Ivanka Trump.

minimoke
02-11-2017, 11:48 AM
Ardern makes list of most powerful women in global politics (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/342900/ardern-makes-list-of-most-powerful-women-in-global-politics) ;)
What does that make Winston Peters?

iceman
03-11-2017, 08:52 AM
As we all know it is clear that house price inflation cooled down significantly in the last few months of the National Government, particularly in Auckland. The new Labour/NZF Government has slowing house price inflation as one of its core policies. Should be easy as prices are already flatlining in Auckland.
But history is not on Labour's side as house prices have nearly always risen much faster under Labour Governments than National, including the last two. House price inflation under Helen Clark was almost double that under the Key/English administration. But that is a fact conveniently forgotten by some https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/98475352/labour-governments-have-overseen-greatest-house-price-inflation-data-shows

This will be interesting to watch, as all the other things they've promised !

fungus pudding
03-11-2017, 09:19 AM
As we all know it is clear that house price inflation cooled down significantly in the last few months of the National Government, particularly in Auckland. The new Labour/NZF Government has slowing house price inflation as one of its core policies. Should be easy as prices are already flatlining in Auckland.
But history is not on Labour's side as house prices have nearly always risen much faster under Labour Governments than National, including the last two. House price inflation under Helen Clark was almost double that under the Key/English administration. But that is a fact conveniently forgotten by some https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/98475352/labour-governments-have-overseen-greatest-house-price-inflation-data-shows

This will be interesting to watch, as all the other things they've promised !

Pushing the dollar down and raising inrterest rates will help ease property prices, altough cost of owning will rise (assuming the proerty is mortgaged) as will cost of everything else.

westerly
03-11-2017, 10:31 AM
As we all know it is clear that house price inflation cooled down significantly in the last few months of the National Government, particularly in Auckland. The new Labour/NZF Government has slowing house price inflation as one of its core policies. Should be easy as prices are already flatlining in Auckland.
But history is not on Labour's side as house prices have nearly always risen much faster under Labour Governments than National, including the last two. House price inflation under Helen Clark was almost double that under the Key/English administration. But that is a fact conveniently forgotten by some https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/98475352/labour-governments-have-overseen-greatest-house-price-inflation-data-shows

This will be interesting to watch, as all the other things they've promised !

"Economist Shamubeel Eaqub agreed it would be incorrect to tie the fortunes of the housing market to the political leanings of the government."

"Government policy on housing has not changed markedly since the 1980s. The bigger drivers of house prices have been liberalisation of finance, falling cost of borrowing, and slow supply of housing. Correlation with government terms is spurious - conflating correlation with causation."

Read the headline and not the article?

westerly

iceman
03-11-2017, 11:27 AM
"Economist Shamubeel Eaqub agreed it would be incorrect to tie the fortunes of the housing market to the political leanings of the government."

"Government policy on housing has not changed markedly since the 1980s. The bigger drivers of house prices have been liberalisation of finance, falling cost of borrowing, and slow supply of housing. Correlation with government terms is spurious - conflating correlation with causation."

Read the headline and not the article?

westerly

Why would you quote one person only and one that was on Labour's payroll before the elections if I remember correctly ? Not much credibility there westerly.

Joshuatree
03-11-2017, 11:40 AM
"Economist Shamubeel Eaqub agreed it would be incorrect to tie the fortunes of the housing market to the political leanings of the government."

"Government policy on housing has not changed markedly since the 1980s. The bigger drivers of house prices have been liberalisation of finance, falling cost of borrowing, and slow supply of housing. Correlation with government terms is spurious - conflating correlation with causation."

Read the headline and not the article?

westerly
Yes when all the foreign banks came in with endless amounts to loan it all sea changed. The post office was where you saved money; with the arrival of the aussie banks and the tap fully open with foreign money its where everyone spent their money and mortgaged up on everything and maxed out on their credit cards.

macduffy
03-11-2017, 12:16 PM
Yes when all the foreign banks came in with endless amounts to loan it all sea changed. The post office was where you saved money; with the arrival of the aussie banks and the tap fully open with foreign money its where everyone spent their money and mortgaged up on everything and maxed out on their credit cards.

Yes, those *!*!* Aussie banks! Mind you, ANZ had been here since the 1840's (Bank of Australasia and Union Bank of Australia) and Westpac too (Bank of New South Wales and Commercial Bank of Australia). The Brits were in on it too with the Lloyds Bank's National Bank of NZ. They made us take out those loans!!!

;)

minimoke
03-11-2017, 12:23 PM
Yes when all the foreign banks came in with endless amounts to loan it all sea changed. The post office was where you saved money; with the arrival of the aussie banks and the tap fully open with foreign money its where everyone spent their money and mortgaged up on everything and maxed out on their credit cards.
I thought it was Mrs Watanabe, that fearful Japanese housewife!

minimoke
03-11-2017, 12:25 PM
Anyway, Labour coalition and we see petrol prices (2 this week) at their highest levels in 2 years. Thats going to make those in poverty poorer!

Joshuatree
03-11-2017, 12:41 PM
Yes, those *!*!* Aussie banks! Mind you, ANZ had been here since the 1840's (Bank of Australasia and Union Bank of Australia) and Westpac too (Bank of New South Wales and Commercial Bank of Australia). The Brits were in on it too with the Lloyds Bank's National Bank of NZ. They made us take out those loans!!!

;)

Deregulation

westerly
03-11-2017, 02:06 PM
Why would you quote one person only and one that was on Labour's payroll before the elections if I remember correctly ? Not much credibility there westerly.

"Leading Economist Wants TOP in Parliament

One of New Zealand’s leading economists says he wants The Opportunities Party in Parliament after the election.

Shamubeel Eaqub has posted on twitter that he doesn’t endorse any party,

But I love your policy based approach. I hope you get past 5%. We need ideas in Parliament not just realpolitik.”."

Don,t think he is Labour's man

westerly

iceman
05-11-2017, 09:32 AM
This from the Herald today:
" In 2013, National announced that student loan defaulters could be arrested at the border in an attempt to crack down on $430 million of debt.

Hipkins said that's not the message he wants to send: "At the moment it's a huge disincentive for New Zealanders to come home."

He said the Government is looking into how they can help borrowers living overseas "get square again". This new Minister is nuts and way out of his depth.

craic
05-11-2017, 09:59 AM
If they do then they will be holding a Knife to Labour throat - and Winston is likely to jar their elbow.

westerly
05-11-2017, 04:23 PM
Anyway, Labour coalition and we see petrol prices (2 this week) at their highest levels in 2 years. Thats going to make those in poverty poorer!

Of course oil prices being at a 2 year high had nothing to do with petrol price rises.

westerly

minimoke
05-11-2017, 05:32 PM
Of course oil prices being at a 2 year high had nothing to do with petrol price rises.

westerlyignoring the NZ $ huh!

777
06-11-2017, 03:22 PM
These turkeys are getting very good at spending taxpayers money.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98611082/paid-parental-leave-increased-to-26-weeks

couta1
06-11-2017, 03:38 PM
These turkeys are getting very good at spending taxpayers money.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98611082/paid-parental-leave-increased-to-26-weeks Turkeys for sure, I mean it's up to us to pay for people's lifestyle choice to have children, I wonder if they will contribute toward my next ski trip, surely enjoying nature should also be subsidized.

justakiwi
06-11-2017, 03:38 PM
These turkeys are getting very good at spending taxpayers money.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98611082/paid-parental-leave-increased-to-26-weeks


Not all that different to what your party proposed.

“Pre-election, National said it would increase the 18 week paid entitlement to 22 weeks”

Labour is set to do that next year but the increase to 26 weeks does not happen until 2020. I think thats an acceptable time frame and probably one National would have eventually adopted themselves.

As the article states, we currently have one of the lowest entitlements in the OECD. It is an improvement that has long been overdue.

minimoke
06-11-2017, 04:06 PM
Not all that different to what your party proposed.

“Pre-election, National said it would increase the 18 week paid entitlement to 22 weeks”
Arguably, one reason National got the boot was because they were getting too good at spending other people's money. Labour is sure to outspend them no matter what.

777
06-11-2017, 05:19 PM
Not all that different to what your party proposed.

“Pre-election, National said it would increase the 18 week paid entitlement to 22 weeks”

Labour is set to do that next year but the increase to 26 weeks does not happen until 2020. I think thats an acceptable time frame and probably one National would have eventually adopted themselves.

As the article states, we currently have one of the lowest entitlements in the OECD. It is an improvement that has long been overdue.

Personally I don't think there should be any parental leave. People should plan their life to pay for kids if that's what they wish to have. Just like buying a car or a house. Why should we all contribute. Personal responsibility..

justakiwi
06-11-2017, 05:22 PM
Arguably, one reason National got the boot was because they were getting too good at spending other people's money. Labour is sure to outspend them no matter what.

The Government (regardless of which party) is in the business of spending “other people’s money.” Thats how it works. You are right in expecting that Labour will probably outspend National - in some areas. Parental leave being one of them. I’m fine with that. National spent a huge amount of money restructuring a well known Ministry, which shall remain nameless. I used to work for said Ministry and over the 8 years I was there theychased their tail round in circles, going from one episode of restructuring to the next, each round of restructuring costing the tax payer millions of dollars (don’t even get me started on the exorbitant payments to so-called consultants). Never really listening to the people working on the coal face who knew better than anybody what was wrong (and what was right) with the organisation. And this was only one government department. They did the same thing with several others and achieved zilch.

I might be wrong but I suspect you are a diehard National supporter who votes National every election because thats what you’ve always done. Apologies if I am wrong about that, but that kind of voting is one of the things wrong with this country. The fact that the majority of voters voted for a party other than National was a vote for change. People now need to suck it up and give the new government a chance to prove themselves. Instead of National voters/supporters being the voice of doom, how about just letting it all pan out for a bit before reserving judgement.

winner69
06-11-2017, 05:28 PM
I like this idea of doubling the number of Labour Inspectors

That’ll sort out the delinquent horrible employers who don’t do things properly.





bugger - I’ve misplaced a month of employee tinesheets. Hope the business who I do the books pro bona doesn’t get caught out by one of these new inspectors and heavily fined.

minimoke
06-11-2017, 05:41 PM
The Government (regardless of which party) is in the business of spending “other people’s money.” Thats how it works. You are right in expecting that Labour will probably outspend National

Actually no - though I appreciate as a government public servant you might think that way. The government is in the business of protecting the lives and liberties of its citizens. That of course takes money to do which is rightfully extracted from those citizens.

To that list i can concede it is also there to provide a hand up for those that cant help themselves in times of need. And again it takes some of its citizens money to achieve that as well.

And in some case where economic economy of scale makes sense government may play a part in other activities.

Government is not in the business of procreation or domestic subsidies - or at least it shouldn't be.

The only reason it strays from its core responsibilities is self interest - that is to use other peoples money to win and secure votes.




I might be wrong but I suspect you are a diehard National supporter who votes National every election because thats what you’ve always done. Apologies if I am wrong about that, but that kind of voting is one of the things wrong with this country. Its that kind of wooly thinking that makes us tax payers shudder every time we see some of our hard earnt money disappear into government departments - we just know we aren't going to get good value.

justakiwi
06-11-2017, 06:35 PM
Firstly, I no longer work for the government department in question, and will hopefully never have to work for another one.

Secondly, when I said governments are in the business of “spending other people’s money” I was referring to the fact that you and I pay taxes and have an expectation that the government of the day will use that money wisely to provide us with quality education and health services, a social welfare service to assist those who (as you said) need a hand from time to time, and an infrastructure in terms of reading, essential services etc. Pretty much on the same page as you in that respect. I’m not going to bother trying to explain the huge benefits of the parental leave entitlement because I seriously doubt you are interested. Let’s just agree to disagree on that one.

Finally, your closing comment about my “wooly thinking” was unjustified. I apologised in advance if my assumption about your voting was incorrect. I based that assumption on the comments you have made during this discussion and on the many discussions I have had with staunch National supporters who have always voted National without ever questioning why they do that. My own son is one such voter. He votes National because he works in farming and “farmers always vote National.”

Oh, and by the way, the government departments that cause you to shudder, have been run for the past 9 years by the National government. The one that can do no wrong. Funny that. Why do you think I left.

Baa_Baa
06-11-2017, 06:39 PM
It's a terrible conundrum to be a business owner and balance the hiring decisions between honest diversity, even choosing the best young lady for the job and whether you be paying that young lady for half a year off work, and the additional salary for the backfill hire, when she has a baby.

justakiwi
06-11-2017, 07:22 PM
It's a terrible conundrum to be a business owner and balance the hiring decisions between honest diversity, even choosing the best young lady for the job and whether you be paying that young lady for half a year off work, and the additional salary for the backfill hire, when she has a baby.

I get it. There is no easy answer. But at the same time I think the “if you can’t afford to have kids you shouldn’t have them” argument, is oversimplifying things. For most low and middle income earners the reality is if they wait until they can afford to have kids, they would never have them. At the same time, we need a certain level of population growth. So, either we are a nation where only the rich have babies, or we face the fact that we as a country need to be willing to offer some financial support to parents along the way. As a mother of four now grown children I was fortunate to be raising them at a time when we could afford to live off one income, so I was able to be at home and focus on raising our children. That is no longer the norm.

I’m not saying this government will get it all right. No government would. But I think they are smarter than many believe, and I think we have every reason to feel optimistic. Rome wasn’t built in a day however so lets just see how things pan out over the next 6 months before writing them off.

minimoke
06-11-2017, 08:20 PM
I get it. There is no easy answer. But at the same time I think the “if you can’t afford to have kids you shouldn’t have them” argument, is oversimplifying things.
No, not really. It is as simple as that. If people don't get that the first responsibility of a parent is to look after your child then so many other lessons will be lost



For most low and middle income earners the reality is if they wait until they can afford to have kids, they would never have them.
Having children is a privilege not a right. To enjoy that privilege sometimes sacrifices may need t0 be made. And perhaps some people (or at least their offspring) are better off not reproducing. (i wont even go into the argument of limited families depending on socio-economic status)




At the same time, we need a certain level of population growth.
Do we? Really!. People cant argue the need to take money off us to prevent global warming on one hand and then take money off us to keep the population growing on the other. That just doesn't make sense.





So, either we are a nation where only the rich have babies, or we face the fact that we as a country need to be willing to offer some financial support to parents along the way.
You are self limiting your argument by suggesting only the rich will have children. It is always possible for others to have and raise families - it just needs to be within their means.


As a mother of four now grown children I was fortunate to be raising them at a time when we could afford to live off one income, so I was able to be at home and focus on raising our children. That is no longer the norm.

Mortgage/interest rates, inflation and unemployment rates are all at historic levels. This is as good as it gets.


I’m not saying this government will get it all right. No government would. But I think they are smarter than many believe, and I think we have every reason to feel optimistic. Rome wasn’t built in a day however so lets just see how things pan out over the next 6 months before writing them off.
It is far too early in this governments cycle to even think that they might be smart - only time will tell

minimoke
06-11-2017, 08:22 PM
It's a terrible conundrum to be a business owner and balance the hiring decisions between honest diversity, even choosing the best young lady for the job and whether you be paying that young lady for half a year off work, and the additional salary for the backfill hire, when she has a baby.
Don't worry. Equity legislation will come that will require you to report on your gender / pay balance and if the numbers don't suit you can expect a visit from an Inspector.

iceman
06-11-2017, 08:25 PM
The fact that the majority of voters voted for a party other than National was a vote for change.

justakiwi this is a ridiculous statement. That means every single election is a "vote for change" in your books as we have never (and probably never will) had a party gain more than 50% of the popular vote under MMP !

minimoke
06-11-2017, 08:30 PM
I was referring to the fact that you and I pay taxes and have an expectation that the government of the day will use that money wisely
You have me confused for another poster - I have no (that is zero) expectation that a government will use my money wisely. Instead I think it will go to their "pet projects"



Oh, and by the way, the government departments that cause you to shudder, have been run for the past 9 years by the National government. The one that can do no wrong. Funny that. Why do you think I left.I have no idea.

minimoke
06-11-2017, 08:37 PM
More excellent wise money spending ideas from our Government. First year tertiary education free - for Australians!

justakiwi
06-11-2017, 09:23 PM
Time for me to bow out of this “discussion”, not because I feel I am beaten but because I realise that these kinds of debates, especially political, really achieve nothing. They also create stress that serves no good purpose. Besides which its past my bedtime. In the words of Douglas Adams “So long and thanks for all the fish.” :)

Snow Leopard
06-11-2017, 09:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY

The old ones are always the best!

Joshuatree
06-11-2017, 10:39 PM
Time for me to bow out of this “discussion”, not because I feel I am beaten but because I realise that these kinds of debates, especially political, really achieve nothing. They also create stress that serves no good purpose. Besides which its past my bedtime. In the words of Douglas Adams “So long and thanks for all the fish.” :)

Good on you mate. You'll find a lot of sour grapes on here, bitter and twisted imo. Im enjoying sitting back and watching this govt for change , as has been around the world just getting on with it in a calm collaborative sensible way. We can join in and be supportive and caring or we can be divisive and heartless but hey that hasn't worked been there done that and failed most New Zealanders .

minimoke
07-11-2017, 06:23 AM
Good on you mate. You'll find a lot of sour grapes on here, bitter and twisted imo. .
Its not about this at all. Its about sensible rational ideas. Perhaps you can explain to me whyh I should go out to work to creat taxes to be supportive and caring to Australains by allowing them one year of free education. I'm not being divisive or heartless but all I can see happening is a decrease in the average IQ of both countries as a result. But is this really wise spending of my money - especially as its more than likely that year will end up being a "gap year" which allows school leavers an opportunity to get pissed at my expense.

Labour need to be honest - this is simply an attempt to lower the NEET numbers and the only they can do it is to tax those in employment

minimoke
07-11-2017, 12:21 PM
Oh lordy, its a shambles on day one. Passing Law 101 - have enough Members in the House on your side to pass a vote. Labour couldn't even do that today and they nearly lost the opportunity to have Mallard elected as Speaker. 5 snouters (including Winston) couldn't even turn up for open day. Does not bode well for the future.

Day One win to National. They get 12 extra Select Committee seas and 5 Chair positions in exchange for Mallard getting SPeaker.

Joshuatree
07-11-2017, 12:27 PM
What a stuff up a bonus for national alright. Winston one of the absentees! Beginners mistake for Jacinda,, the future and present still looking great.

777
07-11-2017, 12:35 PM
Joshua her name is Jacinda. At least spell your heroine's name correctly.

Joshuatree
07-11-2017, 12:38 PM
Thanks.Blimmen spell check on my comp keeps modifying words :mad ;:

minimoke
07-11-2017, 01:59 PM
What a stuff up a bonus for national alright. Winston one of the absentees! Beginners mistake for Jacinda,, the future and present still looking great.The thing about beginners trying out their new training wheels is that if there is an obstacle near by they will steer right towards it and hit it. You don't even need to put the obstacle right in front - pretty much no matter where it is their eyes will fall on it and "crash" one learner lying flat on the ground, wheels spinning in the air.

That's all well and good watching your kid on a new bike. But not for our economy.

artemis
07-11-2017, 02:23 PM
Actually the government did have the numbers, which makes it more embarrassing. They will learn from their mistake though. Mr Bridges was clever.

Mr Peters is in the air, travelling to Vietnam, it appears.

Baa_Baa
07-11-2017, 04:28 PM
Actually the government did have the numbers, which makes it more embarrassing. They will learn from their mistake though. Mr Bridges was clever.

Mr Peters is in the air, travelling to Vietnam, it appears.

Yes they did have the numbers, but only if Mallard voted for himself (not a good look). So Labour cocked up and choses the option of 'not' having the numbers and caves in on Nationals demands for Select Committee representation in lieu of not contesting the vote for Speaker.

Day 1.

National 1
Labour nil

What a laugh (shambles). Lol.

justakiwi
07-11-2017, 05:31 PM
Labour have explained exactly why they went with the option they did. They were well aware they had the numbers, if as you have said above, Mallard voted for himself. Like you, they felt that would not be a “good look.”

They made a calculated decision based on that. Whether you believe that, or agree with it is irrelevant. You guys, like National, appear to be determined to jump on every move this government makes. Give them a bloody chance! Geez.

By the way, am I the only female in these forums? WAY too much “old boys club” testosterone in here.

fungus pudding
07-11-2017, 05:51 PM
Labour have explained exactly why they went with the option they did. They were well aware they had the numbers, if as you have said above, Mallard voted for himself. Like you, they felt that would not be a “good look.”

They made a calculated decision based on that. Whether you believe that, or agree with it is irrelevant. You guys, like National, appear to be determined to jump on every move this government makes. Give them a bloody chance! Geez.

By the way, am I the only female in these forums? WAY too much “old boys club” testosterone in here.

Quite right. Contact the Greens or Labour for advice on achieving gender balance.

777
07-11-2017, 06:14 PM
Give them a bloody chance! Geez.



But we have been continuously told how fantastically clever they are and how useless National has been so to stuff up, which they actually did, was always going to get comments. Expect another two and a half years of it.

minimoke
07-11-2017, 06:21 PM
Labour have explained exactly why they went with the option they did. They were well aware they had the numbers, if as you have said above, Mallard voted for himself. Like you, they felt that would not be a “good look.”

They made a calculated decision based on that. Whether you believe that, or agree with it is irrelevant. You guys, like National, appear to be determined to jump on every move this government makes. Give them a bloody chance! Geez.

By the way, am I the only female in these forums? WAY too much “old boys club” testosterone in here.


[/QUOTE]
Thats their spin - but check out pictures of Chris Hipkins in Parliament today. Please excuse the testosterone but he looks like he is fair sh1tting himself over this.

Baa_Baa
07-11-2017, 07:26 PM
Chris Hipkins stuffed up, simple. It's not a matter of gender or testosterone bias here. He could have added up the numbers and figured out that with a whole bunch of members not in attendance that the vote for Speaker of the House would have been compromised. A simple but profound balls up.

Lets' not shift the blame to simple commentary on this website, or whether we're male, female, Labour, National or anything in between, we have nothing to do with it. Labour screwed up on their first outing, plain and simple. It'll be three years of misery if they can't get the basics right from the outset. This is a poor beginning.

couta1
07-11-2017, 07:33 PM
Chris Hipkins stuffed up, simple. It's not a matter of gender or testosterone bias here. He could have added up the numbers and figured out that with a whole bunch of members not in attendance that the vote for Speaker of the House would have been compromised. A simple but profound balls up.

Lets' not shift the blame to simple commentary on this website, or whether we're male, female, Labour, National or anything in between, we have nothing to do with it. Labour screwed up on their first outing, plain and simple. It'll be three years of misery if they can't get the basics right from the outset. This is a poor beginning. If I run my small business the way these clowns operate, I'd have been down and out 27 years ago.

Baa_Baa
07-11-2017, 07:41 PM
If I run my small business the way these clowns operate, I'd have been down and out 27 years ago.

This is a good summary imo ... https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/98649353/https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/98649353/red-faced-government-needs-to-bury-first-day-farce-fast

"red-faced-government-needs-to-bury-first-day-farce-fast"

Labour have a long road to hoe ahead.

iceman
07-11-2017, 10:57 PM
Actually the government did have the numbers, which makes it more embarrassing. They will learn from their mistake though. Mr Bridges was clever.

Mr Peters is in the air, travelling to Vietnam, it appears.

He only just had time to serve papers on news reporters and an editor to reveal their sources, before he took off How low can the Deputy PM go and we´re only in week one !
It seems fogotten that he cheated out more money from the Government in superannuation payments than he was entitled to. That´s what the news should be about.

fungus pudding
08-11-2017, 01:10 AM
He only just had time to serve papers on news reporters and an editor to reveal their sources, before he took off How low can the Deputy PM go and we´re only in week one !
It seems fogotten that he cheated out more money from the Government in superannuation payments than he was entitled to. That´s what the news should be about.

Of course it should. Surely there's a journalist or two following this up - he can't have terrorised every single one of them!

iceman
08-11-2017, 02:54 AM
So now it is clear Winston held NZ to ransom for 3 weeks or so while "negotiating" in bad faith with National, after having secretly signed papers to sue them ! The only reason for his "negotiations" was to extract as much as possible from the inexperienced Jacinda/Labour in which he was very successful. I think Winston is going totally nuts. I can´t wait to hear more about what Tim Murphy mentions in the link below, about suspicion of some type of deal between Winston and Cameron Slater berfore the elections.

There will be a fair amount of sweat breaking out in Labour´s ranks right now when they realise the real Winston Peters and his never ending agendas and personal vendettas. He is a fraudster who cheated the Government for 7 years !

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/11/07/58644/winston-goes-fishing

Rep
08-11-2017, 05:23 AM
What would have been even more extraordinary was if the missing National MP had been present in the House and there had been a confidence vote called?

Given the shambles yesterday if one or two of the coalition MPs or a Greens MP hadn’t been in the right place at the appropriate time (for whatever reason), Ms Ardern could have been rolled by a confidence vote on Day 1 of Parliament sitting... rookie errors by Hipkins and he genuinely looked to be panicking, Robertson clearly concerned and competence to run the House was questioned.

The Coalition Whips failed to complete
Job 1 - have enough members in the House and were way too complacent.

Ardern will be asking herself what in hell happened and why her first sitting day in Parliament wasn’t the headline - although Winston’s stunt serving discovery also ensured her first day wasn’t the top story on the news websites.

Her mentor didn’t suffer fools so expect Hipkins and the Whips to be on notice - the capitulation on the select committee numbers will ensure opposition to have ample opportunity to score points. A strong opposition is crucial to hold the executive and government to account, National’s message will be that the coalition can’t manage the process and if legislative programme is slowed then it’s because the coalition is flawed. The flip side is they don’t want to be as negative or ideologically blinkered as Tony Abbott

winner69
08-11-2017, 07:54 AM
Paddles is dead ...RIP Paddles

No wonder Jacinda looked a bit sad yesterday

minimoke
08-11-2017, 08:22 AM
Paddles is dead ...RIP Paddles

No wonder Jacinda looked a bit sad yesterday
I think the sadness was due to the dawning reality that the whip (a very important position) was incompetent. And if that is teh cream on top then its a worry about what has settled underneath.

That and realising Winston has gone off reservation with his legal stuff BEFORE the election!

fungus pudding
08-11-2017, 08:32 AM
I think the sadness was due to the dawning reality that the whip (a very important position) was incompetent. And if that is teh cream on top then its a worry about what has settled underneath.



Paddles would have loved that cream.

craic
08-11-2017, 10:57 AM
Does that mean that to hold this nation to ransom all you have to do is kidnap the PM's cat?

Joshuatree
08-11-2017, 11:41 AM
It means national is doing what it said"making the govt's life hell".Meaning we don't give a stuff about our country or its people, we will do anything below the bar like we did in the election, to regain power, divide to rule, transparent and clear , not good for NZ.It will backfire on them next election .

minimoke
08-11-2017, 11:45 AM
It means national is doing what it said"making the govt's life hell".Meaning we don't give a stuff about our country or its people, we will do anything below the bar like we did in the election, to regain power, divide to rule, transparent and clear , not good for NZ.It will backfire on them next election .
No - they are doing what an effective opposition does. It keeps govt on its toes. That is the Opposition's job.

People wouldn't know this because we haven't seen it in the past 9 years.

Rep
08-11-2017, 06:30 PM
It means national is doing what it said"making the govt's life hell".Meaning we don't give a stuff about our country or its people, we will do anything below the bar like we did in the election, to regain power, divide to rule, transparent and clear , not good for NZ.It will backfire on them next election .

We will have to disagree.

Chris Hipkins reportedly didn't return any of the phone calls made by National that were made about the number of select committee members - it was clearly a bone of contention for the National Party (they said as much in a number of news reports) and in the aftermath, the spin and PR coming out of the Labour Party that they were going to concede on the numbers doesn't pass the sniff test. It was arrogant and complacent not to engage with the opposition on this point - and with several members being away on the first sitting day, as the Chief Whip Hipkins should have known the numbers in the House - he should have at least known that David Parker and Winston Peters were at APEC and that 3 other MPs would not be present to alert him of the risk (and if required, requested a 'pair' well before the first day of the house or ensured one of the missing MPs ensured they were in the House) - as I mentioned previously, this is the main job of a whip. You could say that he isn't responsible for the Green or NZ First MPs but he is because he's the Labour Led Government's Chief Whip.

The concession on the select committee members potentially does have several implications - all of the National MPs will be on a select committee but more importantly as the the party with the most votes the relevant Minister will need to be present at several committees to vote as the coalition won't have majorities unless they are there, this give the opportunity for opposition MPs at Select Committee to ask questions about the Coalition's performance and have the relevant Minister(s) present. That will put the spotlight on portfolios where the Minister will have to stay informed and be held to account - and not hide away from the select committee process as this is the engine room of Parliament.

The other main area that the National Party will be able to hold the Labour led Government to account is question time - the questions are divvy'ed up between the parties based on the non-executive members (Ministers) of the House. National has the most MPs in the House and none of them are by definition in the Executive, NZFirst has many executive members and few non executive members and the Greens have two executive members and 5 non executive members and Labour has the second biggest number of MPs but a lot of executive members. At last tally, of the 14 allocated questions in question time, I think National has 9 questions per sitting day to hold the coalition to account on a range of issues - they are also a single party, relatively disciplined, well resourced and have the benefit of many of their MPs probably having a far deeper knowledge of the portfolios than the coalition ministers.

Again if National slips into the trap of being like the US Republicans and blocking everything that won't bode well nor will being as negative as Tony Abbott was as this trapped him in Government - but if they pick away at the under performance of ministerial portfolios, question policy and costings and ask the right questions, remain organised and make concessions around policies (e.g. agreeing to the 26 weeks parental leave) so that aren't seen as ideologists then that is the people are well served by a strong opposition.

fungus pudding
08-11-2017, 06:51 PM
No - they are doing what an effective opposition does. It keeps govt on its toes. That is the Opposition's job.

People wouldn't know this because we haven't seen it in the past 9 years.

Winston won't be pleased with this. He'll be wary about going away again and leaving Jacinda in charge.

Joshuatree
08-11-2017, 07:12 PM
It means national is doing what it said"making the govt's life hell".Meaning we don't give a stuff about our country or its people, we will do anything below the bar like we did in the election, to regain power, divide to rule, transparent and clear , not good for NZ.It will backfire on them next election .

Effective opposition is healthy. Negative disruptive divisive , spiteful even isn't and kiwis will see this pre election and post election behaviour below the bar for what it is, untrustworthy(labour and nat had an agreement about the speaker) divisive and power hungry above all else, destructive and ultimately self destructive. Thats prob a good thing because they do need to renew and refresh with members who will put their country ahead of themselves, not this largely corrupted and addicted by power and self importance party imo..

iceman
08-11-2017, 07:27 PM
We will have to disagree.

Chris Hipkins reportedly didn't return any of the phone calls made by National that were made about the number of select committee members - it was clearly a bone of contention for the National Party (they said as much in a number of news reports) and in the aftermath, the spin and PR coming out of the Labour Party that they were going to concede on the numbers doesn't pass the sniff test. It was arrogant and complacent not to engage with the opposition on this point - and with several members being away on the first sitting day, as the Chief Whip Hipkins should have known the numbers in the House - he should have at least known that David Parker and Winston Peters were at APEC and that 3 other MPs would not be present to alert him of the risk (and if required, requested a 'pair' well before the first day of the house or ensured one of the missing MPs ensured they were in the House) - as I mentioned previously, this is the main job of a whip. You could say that he isn't responsible for the Green or NZ First MPs but he is because he's the Labour Led Government's Chief Whip.

The concession on the select committee members potentially does have several implications - all of the National MPs will be on a select committee but more importantly as the the party with the most votes the relevant Minister will need to be present at several committees to vote as the coalition won't have majorities unless they are there, this give the opportunity for opposition MPs at Select Committee to ask questions about the Coalition's performance and have the relevant Minister(s) present. That will put the spotlight on portfolios where the Minister will have to stay informed and be held to account - and not hide away from the select committee process as this is the engine room of Parliament.

The other main area that the National Party will be able to hold the Labour led Government to account is question time - the questions are divvy'ed up between the parties based on the non-executive members (Ministers) of the House. National has the most MPs in the House and none of them are by definition in the Executive, NZFirst has many executive members and few non executive members and the Greens have two executive members and 5 non executive members and Labour has the second biggest number of MPs but a lot of executive members. At last tally, of the 14 allocated questions in question time, I think National has 9 questions per sitting day to hold the coalition to account on a range of issues - they are also a single party, relatively disciplined, well resourced and have the benefit of many of their MPs probably having a far deeper knowledge of the portfolios than the coalition ministers.

Again if National slips into the trap of being like the US Republicans and blocking everything that won't bode well nor will being as negative as Tony Abbott was as this trapped him in Government - but if they pick away at the under performance of ministerial portfolios, question policy and costings and ask the right questions, remain organised and make concessions around policies (e.g. agreeing to the 26 weeks parental leave) so that aren't seen as ideologists then that is the people are well served by a strong opposition.

A great and accurate post. Labour peed of National by their undemocratic decision to reduce number of selct committee seats witout any consultation and silly Hipkins not taking their calls to disucss their concerns. They got him back quick smart. Josjuatree you should read tthe post above, again if you have to.
Hipkins is inexperienced as could be seen by this fiasco and his statement the other day that his Government wanted to see what they can do to "square off" people living overseas with student loans. That amounts to Government saying don´t worry about continuing to pay your debt to the country. Incredibly naive.

couta1
08-11-2017, 07:35 PM
I don't rate Hipkins at all, can't believe the responsibility he has been given, bit like letting a child run a creche.

fungus pudding
08-11-2017, 07:37 PM
A great and accurate post. Labour peed of National by their undemocratic decision to reduce number of selct committee seats witout any consultation and silly Hipkins not taking their calls to disucss their concerns. They got him back quick smart. Josjuatree you should read tthe post above, again if you have to.
Hipkins is inexperienced as could be seen by this fiasco and his statement the other day that his Government wanted to see what they can do to "square off" people living overseas with student loans. That amounts to Government saying don´t worry about continuing to pay your debt to the country. Incredibly naive.

Hipkins, aka Chippie, is right out of his depth. And he got the booby prize, education.

Joshuatree
08-11-2017, 07:55 PM
Jacinda Ardern is leading by example in how a leader should behave not negative and nasty and they are not mucking around and achieving much in this short time so far. For example exposing the typical national lie that it couldn't be done re the ban on foreign buyers lol.

justakiwi
08-11-2017, 08:02 PM
Effective opposition is healthy. Negative disruptive divisive , spiteful even isn't and kiwis will see this pre election and post election behaviour below the bar for what it is, untrustworthy(labour and nat had an agreement about the speaker) divisive and power hungry above all else, destructive and ultimately self destructive. Thats prob a good thing because they do need to renew and refresh with members who will put their country ahead of themselves, not this largely corrupted and addicted by power and self importance party imo..

Exactly! We need an effective opposition - nobody is denying that. What we don’t need is a game playing, schoolyard high fiving bunch of bully boys who resort to sarcasm, name calling, and smart alec sniggering when a brand new government makes a few teething mistakes. I have no problem with the opposition holding the government accountable. I expect them to do that, but I don’t expect to see them ridiculing or belittling them constantly for the next three years, or being “anti-everything-Labour-does” just for the sake of it. If they continue to do that they will lose all credibility as an opposition party.

Jacinda’s speech today was professional, well prepared and to the point. Her only mistake to date is trusting that her opposition will play fair and respectfully. She learned that lesson the hard way. She is not and never has been a “dirty” politician which is one of the reasons she is Prime Minister. NZ is tired of all the bull**** in politics we have seen for a great many years. We are sick to death of watching the “little boys” games. National’s dirty tactics throughout the election campaign pissed a lot of people off and Bill English went down in a lot of people’s estimation because he was dumb enough to be drawn into that.

National needs to to wake their ideas up and start doing what is right for the country. The election is over. Whether you like it or not this is the government we now have. If National really gives a **** about the country they will pull their woolly heads in, stop throwing their toys out of the cot and get on with the business of being an effective opposition, which by the way, does not automatically mean opposing everything the government tries to do.

Joshuatree
08-11-2017, 08:11 PM
Video: The touching moment Trevor Mallard holds Labour MP's baby while sitting in Speaker's chair (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/video-touching-moment-trevor-mallard-holds-labour-mps-baby-while-sitting-in-speakers-chair)

This Govt Progressive Inclusive and empathetic. Catching up with the OECD in paid parental leave etc.:)

justakiwi
08-11-2017, 08:20 PM
Video: The touching moment Trevor Mallard holds Labour MP's baby while sitting in Speaker's chair (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/video-touching-moment-trevor-mallard-holds-labour-mps-baby-while-sitting-in-speakers-chair)

This Govt Progressive Inclusive and empathetic. Catching up with the OECD in paid parental leave etc.:)

Yes and not before time, but watch this space. I’m expecting at least a few “Parliament is no place for babies/breastfeeding” responses to your post ;)

minimoke
08-11-2017, 08:24 PM
Jacinda Ardern is leading by example in how a leader should behave
An example of a good leader is having really competent people under her that she can direct to achieve the necessary goals. Its a worry if Hipkins is one of the best she has

minimoke
08-11-2017, 08:29 PM
... and get on with the business of being an effective opposition, which by the way, does not automatically mean opposing everything the government tries to do.I think you will find "opposing" things is what an "opposition" does. If you want a partner then you bring them into a coalition. Cindy's made her bed - shes got three years (at best)to enjoy laying in it.

justakiwi
08-11-2017, 09:13 PM
I think you will find "opposing" things is what an "opposition" does. If you want a partner then you bring them into a coalition. Cindy's made her bed - shes got three years (at best)to enjoy laying in it.

First of all her name is Jacinda and she is the Prime Minister so show some respect and call her by her proper name. Whether you like her or not is irrelevant.

Secondly, nobody with even half a brain believes that an opposition party has to oppose everything a government does. If they did that they would very quickly lose both respect and credibity. Any government - even National, will get many things right so it would be pretty damned stupid for an opposition party to oppose everything simply because the name "Opposition" comes from the verb "oppose." That's just nonsense and you know it.

fungus pudding
08-11-2017, 11:27 PM
Yes and not before time, but watch this space. I’m expecting at least a few “Parliament is no place for babies/breastfeeding” responses to your post ;)

Good. I'll be first. Parliament is no place for babies.

winner69
09-11-2017, 06:10 AM
Jacinda Ardern is leading by example in how a leader should behave not negative and nasty and they are not mucking around and achieving much in this short time so far. For example exposing the typical national lie that it couldn't be done re the ban on foreign buyers lol.

You can't be proud of your Deputy Prime Minister screwing your party seeing he was never going the Nats way after starting to sue them.

Spose if you want power you become friends with anybody.

minimoke
09-11-2017, 06:17 AM
Secondly, nobody with even half a brain believes that an opposition party has to oppose everything a government does.
Ok heres a small exercises for you. In its 9 years of opposition list the Bills Labour supported National on (my money is you coming up with less than 5)

The flip side of your argument is government should be prepared to support an oppositions good idea. Like for example dropping income tax rates which all parties (National, NZ First, Maori and Act) supported last term except Labour.

While the idea of Cindy (she needs to earn the respect and failing on day one is not a good start) and all MP's sitting around a warm campfire, holding hands singing kumbaya and agreeing on legislation may have some appeal it isn't going to happen under our Westminster style of parliament. Its like our justice system. Its a bear pit and winner takes all.

blackcap
09-11-2017, 06:43 AM
First of all her name is Jacinda and she is the Prime Minister so show some respect and call her by her proper name. Whether you like her or not is irrelevant.

Secondly, nobody with even half a brain believes that an opposition party has to oppose everything a government does. .

I see Cindy's team introduced a bill under urgency last night at about 6pm. Funny thing is National (Amy Adams) said that they were going to support this bill. Who would have thought.

fungus pudding
09-11-2017, 07:12 AM
I see Cindy's team introduced a bill under urgency last night at about 6pm. Funny thing is National (Amy Adams) said that they were going to support this bill. Who would have thought.

Surely the correct abbreviation, or nick-name for Taxcinda should be Taxi rather than Cinda.

blackcap
09-11-2017, 07:24 AM
Surely the correct abbreviation, or nick-name for Taxcinda should be Taxi rather than Cinda.

Maybe but she is all sugary and spicy and all that's nice (as the nursery rhyme of old), so to me Cindy is apt enough for now.

fungus pudding
09-11-2017, 07:45 AM
Maybe but she is all sugary and spicy and all that's nice (as the nursery rhyme of old), so to me Cindy is apt enough for now.

Wasn't there a Cindy doll that got flattened by Barbie?

minimoke
09-11-2017, 07:53 AM
I see Cindy's team introduced a bill under urgency last night at about 6pm. Funny thing is National (Amy Adams) said that they were going to support this bill. Who would have thought.
It was the Paid Parental Leave Bill. Probably part of Nationals cunning plan so see Cindy out of Parliament for 6 months so that Kelvin can take charge for a while

winner69
09-11-2017, 08:16 AM
Seating in the chamber is interesting

NZF and Greens separated by Labour

And some Labour dude called Duncan Webb has been given the naughty boys seat .....all out on his lonesome at the back of the house on the opposition side.

winner69
10-11-2017, 06:21 AM
Winnie grumpy about this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/11/08/how-the-far-right-is-poisoning-new-zealand/

minimoke
10-11-2017, 07:45 AM
Seems we have quite the mature opposition. Prepared to support Labour with any TTP agreement. Shame labours coalition partner NZ first wont be quite so mature and I suspect the Greens wont be either

winner69
10-11-2017, 07:47 AM
Good ole Jacinda ....looks like she going to get TPP across the line......on her terms. She still saying 50/50 but obviously playing the under promise over delivery game.

I now regret going on marchs protesting against this abhorrent (as it was then) trade agreement. Stupid and foolish wasn’t I

iceman
10-11-2017, 08:54 AM
Interesting take on the free tertiary education policy https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/98652630/a-surprising-result-why-removing-tertiary-fees-will-make-inequality-worse

minimoke
10-11-2017, 09:52 AM
Interesting take on the free tertiary education policy https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/98652630/a-surprising-result-why-removing-tertiary-fees-will-make-inequality-worse
This was patently a failed attempt by Labour to woe the young constituency in an attempt to buy their vote. On that front it was a failure as youth did not turn out to the elections as expected. There was no youthquake of new engaged young voters flocking to Labour.

This is now going to end up an expensive GAP year funding for those with not much inclination to do anything except drink and lay around. And of course it supports the wealthy - it means they do not have to fund that first year - instant return on taxes which I like to see. Other than a GAP year party the "poor" wont benefit as they wont be able to afford years 2 and three. And year 4 because they flunked year 3.

It will alo certainly make education harder. At the moment first years are arguably motivated to be there to study. Now those some classes will be loaded with loafers who will not focus on learning.

A much more sensible policy would be to make final year free - to incentivise people to finish. Also ought to be targeted to skills shortage.

Baa_Baa
10-11-2017, 08:19 PM
This was patently a failed attempt by Labour to woe the young constituency in an attempt to buy their vote. On that front it was a failure as youth did not turn out to the elections as expected. There was no youthquake of new engaged young voters flocking to Labour.

Are you sure about that? http://www.elections.org.nz/research-statistics/enrolment-statistics-electorate This says youth voters are by far the largest increase of enrolments over all age groups. What's your source that says the youth vote were not the largest increase in voters in the 2017 elections? Maybe you'll say enrolment <=> voting. Fair enough. But try and find something that backs up your claims that Labour did not tap into the youth vote, other than supposition.

minimoke
10-11-2017, 11:12 PM
Oh dear. The hip young prime minister of canada is not on the same page as the hip young prime minister of NZ. Seems ttp is dead in the water.

minimoke
10-11-2017, 11:14 PM
Are you sure about that? http://www.elections.org.nz/research-statistics/enrolment-statistics-electorate This says youth voters are by far the largest increase of enrolments over all age groups. What's your source that says the youth vote were not the largest increase in voters in the 2017 elections? Maybe you'll say enrolment <=> voting. Fair enough. But try and find something that backs up your claims that Labour did not tap into the youth vote, other than supposition.

You'll have to wait until tomorrow but registered voters aged 18 - 24 were down this year compared with 2014.

Edit
338,269 in 2014. 332,594 in 2017. Source = same as yours. No supposition there that Labour failed to fire up the youth vote. Just simple facts.

minimoke
11-11-2017, 08:52 AM
How are Labour getting on bring those Manus Island illegal immigrants to NZ. Is it too early to call that a "fail" or is it still a work in progress?

winner69
11-11-2017, 09:20 AM
I Be referee in baa_baa and mini discussion re 18-24 year old voters

Enrolments 2014 338,269 and in 2017 333,164 - so enrolled numbers down

Those that voted 2014 212,204 and in 2017 230,783 - so more voted this time

Turnout rate increased from 62.73% in 2014 to 69.27% in 2017

So less 18-24 year olds enrolled but more voted in 2017 than 2014


Source | same as linked above
No scientific definition of youthquake found so make no comment whether one happened.

minimoke
11-11-2017, 12:20 PM
No scientific definition of youthquake found so make no comment whether one happened.
Thankyou Mr Referee.
Youthqake can be described as an interested and energised demographic keen to vote for labour.
Conclusions " there was no "youth quake" of enrolments

There is no evidence that the additional youth voter turnout went to labour.
A compromise positon might be that each party secured the same portion of that youth vote as it did its whole vote.

Which of course means National secured more of the additional youth vote.

iceman
14-11-2017, 07:22 PM
The new Government seems hellbent on turning our closest neighbour and biggest trading partner into a less than happy relation https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98858656/asylum-seekers-not-threat-to-nz-time-to-talk-directly-to-png-rather-than-australia--greens

Not a good start and one would think the Government would have bigger fish to fry at the start. Buy obviously that does not include allowing parents to choose which one of them stays home to look after the newborns. Labour knows best https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98871168/national-sets-the-nanny-trap-labour-walks-right-in-over-paid-parental-leave

Sounds familiar ?

justakiwi
14-11-2017, 07:54 PM
Not a good start and one would think the Government would have bigger fish to fry at the start. Buy obviously that does not include allowing parents to choose which one of them stays home to look after the newborns. Labour knows best https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98871168/national-sets-the-nanny-trap-labour-walks-right-in-over-paid-parental-leave

Sounds familiar ?

Actually you got that wrong. Labour is fine with parents choosing which one takes the paid parental leave. What they are not fine with is National’s suggestion that both parents take leave at the same time for a shorter total period of leave.

iceman
15-11-2017, 12:44 AM
Actually you got that wrong. Labour is fine with parents choosing which one takes the paid parental leave. What they are not fine with is National’s suggestion that both parents take leave at the same time for a shorter total period of leave.

Any idea what their problem is with parents having a bit of a choice, whether home togethr for some of it or not ? I don´t understand what the issue is for them.

Last year my son and daughter in-law. who live in another country, took leave for 3 months at the same time as they had the newborn and a 2 year old. They can take 3 months each of non-trabsferable (together or separately) parental leave and another 3 months of transferable parental leave. 9 months in total if fully utilized. They said the 3 months together was a great thing to be able to do. But not in NZ apparently, according to Labour !!

justakiwi
15-11-2017, 07:40 AM
Any idea what their problem is with parents having a bit of a choice, whether home togethr for some of it or not ? I don´t understand what the issue is for them.

Last year my son and daughter in-law. who live in another country, took leave for 3 months at the same time as they had the newborn and a 2 year old. They can take 3 months each of non-trabsferable (together or separately) parental leave and another 3 months of transferable parental leave. 9 months in total if fully utilized. They said the 3 months together was a great thing to be able to do. But not in NZ apparently, according to Labour !!

Simple. Labour has committed to extending the period of paid parental leave (for one parent) to 22 weeks initially, up to 26 in 2020. There are several ideas behind this. That provides a significant chunk of time for one parent to focus on bonding with their baby, establishing breastfeeding (if its Mum), recovering from birth especially if it was a birth requiring medical intervention. The NZ College of Midwives has come out in support of this initiative.

For some strange reason National has (apparently suddenly, unless I missed something) decided it would be best to give both parents leave at the same time, but only half the amount of leave. Which kind of defeats the purpose of increasing the period of leave in the first place. So of course Labour isn’t going to buy into that suggestion.

Your son’s scenario above is an awesome idea and I agree that taking the first 3 months off together would be invaluable. But in that scenario your daughter in law could then still take another 3 months off if she wished - so 6 months for Mum. I doubt even National would support that kind of arrangement as the cost in this country would be pretty significant.

I understand where Labour is coming from. I also see some merit in what National is proposing but I don’t think 3 months is enough. It can easily take a good 6 weeks or more to establish breastfeeding alone.

Labour has has started things rolling with the increase in the number of weeks of leave. Down the track they may well re-visit it and make some changes. But reducing the total amount of leave would be a backward step and I don’t see it happening.

winner69
15-11-2017, 07:55 AM
So the economists who said their wasn't a big hole in Labours plans (ie who said Joyce was wrong) are now worried about rising debt

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98870648/economists-see-government-debt-rising-billions-more-than-labours-plan

fungus pudding
15-11-2017, 07:59 AM
So the economists who said their wasn't a big hole in Labours plans (ie who said Joyce was wrong) are now worried about rising debt

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98870648/economists-see-government-debt-rising-billions-more-than-labours-plan

Hasn't taken long to find the hole. Just a matter of how deep it is, but Joyce's figures are looking pretty accurate.

winner69
15-11-2017, 08:19 AM
Hasn't taken long to find the hole. Just a matter of how deep it is, but Joyce's figures are looking pretty accurate.

we be all honky dory by 2022 though ...no worries

artemis
15-11-2017, 08:26 AM
Hasn't taken long to find the hole. Just a matter of how deep it is, but Joyce's figures are looking pretty accurate.


No they are not accurate. Not all of the forward expenditure taken into account by Mr Joyce has been factored in yet. Even Mr Robertson in QT 14 November is back tracking on the debt repayment rate. (Not sure I would count him as an expert though.)

winner69
15-11-2017, 08:32 AM
No they are not accurate. Not all of the forward expenditure taken into account by Mr Joyce has been factored in yet. Even Mr Robertson in QT 14 November is back tracking on the debt repayment rate. (Not sure I would count him as an expert though.)

so its actrually a lot worse?

minimoke
15-11-2017, 08:36 AM
Simple. Labour has committed to extending the period of paid parental leave (for one parent) to 22 weeks initially, up to 26 in 2020. There are several ideas behind this. That provides a significant chunk of time for one parent to focus on bonding with their baby, establishing breastfeeding (if its Mum), recovering from birth especially if it was a birth requiring medical intervention. The NZ College of Midwives has come out in support of this initiative.
.
Seems inconsistent with extended parental leave provisions which essentially provides for 2 parents sharing up to 12 months between them.

iceman
15-11-2017, 09:42 AM
Seems inconsistent with extended parental leave provisions which essentially provides for 2 parents sharing up to 12 months between them.

If we are going to have paid parental leave, the parents should decide for themselves how they want to use it, not the Gummit

minimoke
15-11-2017, 11:10 AM
If we are going to have paid parental leave, the parents should decide for themselves how they want to use it, not the Gummit
Some would have us believe that since its the Gummits money they decide the rules.

Zaphod
15-11-2017, 11:45 AM
Simple. Labour has committed to extending the period of paid parental leave (for one parent) to 22 weeks initially, up to 26 in 2020. There are several ideas behind this. That provides a significant chunk of time for one parent to focus on bonding with their baby, establishing breastfeeding (if its Mum), recovering from birth especially if it was a birth requiring medical intervention. The NZ College of Midwives has come out in support of this initiative.


It would be useful for Labour to cite the research that supports an extension to 26 weeks. Thus far all I have heard is "NZCM supports it" and the odd mention that the policies other countries in the OECD are currently greater than ours, neither of which adequately supports their policy in an objective fashion.

winner69
15-11-2017, 11:51 AM
If National MP Jian Yang was the China conduit to NZ I wonder whose doing that role for the Labour Government.

Labour in Opposition seemed quite comfortable with Jian Yang and never made any comment about him at all.

That Professor Brady has some interesting views on Chinese relationships.

minimoke
16-11-2017, 06:20 AM
Wellington trains on strike. No coincidence that happens under Labour. No coincidence the Speaker of the house is a card carrying member of that Union

fungus pudding
16-11-2017, 07:56 AM
Some would have us believe that since its the Gummits money they decide the rules.

But it isn't the gummints money; it belongs to those they are returning it to - minus about 40% for handling fees.

justakiwi
16-11-2017, 09:09 AM
Wellington trains on strike. No coincidence that happens under Labour. No coincidence the Speaker of the house is a card carrying member of that Union

Wow ... I feel like I’ve just stumbled into Trump’s Twitter feed.

justakiwi
16-11-2017, 09:12 AM
But it isn't the gummints money; it belongs to those they are returning it to - minus about 40% for handling fees.

As it was under a National government too. Don’t pretend your government spent our money any more wisely than Labour is/will. It’s fake news.

fungus pudding
16-11-2017, 09:31 AM
As it was under a National government too. Don’t pretend your government spent our money any more wisely than Labour is/will. It’s fake news.

What a strange response. I didn't mention National or Labour and I certainly didn't pretend anything. And neither is 'my' government. Whichever is in power is 'our' government.

Zaphod
16-11-2017, 09:49 AM
For some strange reason National has (apparently suddenly, unless I missed something) decided it would be best to give both parents leave at the same time, but only half the amount of leave. Which kind of defeats the purpose of increasing the period of leave in the first place. So of course Labour isn’t going to buy into that suggestion.


Strange? It's because the current PPL entitlement may be taken by either parent, so logically having both parents off at the same time results in half the entitlement to each. Having both parents entitled to the full amount places a significant financial burden upon the taxpayer, and without peer-reviewed evidence that having both parents present for 26 weeks provides significant benefit for the child, it cannot be justified.

justakiwi
16-11-2017, 10:16 AM
Strange? It's because the current PPL entitlement may be taken by either parent, so logically having both parents off at the same time results in half the entitlement to each. Having both parents entitled to the full amount places a significant financial burden upon the taxpayer, and without peer-reviewed evidence that having both parents present for 26 weeks provides significant benefit for the child, it cannot be justified.

I agree with you. Just wondering why National would consider it a better option for both parents to have time off for a much shorter period of total time, than one parent (could be Mum or could be Dad) having a decent period of time to devote to their newborn (and other children they may have).

From a mother’s perspective, I would rather see a parent home with a newborn for 26 weeks than two parents home for only 13. If both parents take the 13 week option, they then presumably have to go back to work, which means baby has to go to some form of childcare (might be family but might not be). OR, one parent then makes a decision to give up work. Either way, an 13 week old baby in childcare is not the ideal. Personally, I don’t believe its ideal for a 6 month old baby either but the longer baby can be home with a parent, the better.

justakiwi
16-11-2017, 10:21 AM
What a strange response. I didn't mention National or Labour and I certainly didn't pretend anything. And neither is 'my' government. Whichever is in power is 'our' government.

Ok, I apologise for the comment/assumptions I made re “your government.” I jumped to the conclusion (from your comment) that you were having a dig at Labour.

My my sincere apologies if that wasn’t the case ��

macduffy
16-11-2017, 10:59 AM
I don't see why this parental leave thing shouldn't be back-dated. About 40 years would suit me fine!

;)

fungus pudding
16-11-2017, 11:05 AM
Ok, I apologise for the comment/assumptions I made re “your government.” I jumped to the conclusion (from your comment) that you were having a dig at Labour.

My my sincere apologies if that wasn’t the case ��

No. It wasn't a dig at Labour. You are forgiven. :cool:

minimoke
16-11-2017, 11:28 AM
I don't see why this parental leave thing shouldn't be back-dated. About 40 years would suit me fine!

;)I think it should apply until the kids are 18 years old. Damn expensive creatures they are and its in these later years you really want to be home to keep an eye on them.!

couta1
16-11-2017, 12:35 PM
I still fail to see why I should pay for other people's lifestyle choice to have however many children they want to have, no one pays me any benefit for the good lifestyle I choose to live.

777
16-11-2017, 12:44 PM
I still fail to see why I should pay for other people's lifestyle choice to have however many children they want to have, no one pays me any benefit for the good lifestyle I choose to live.

Totally agree. It is the emotive thing about children that prevails.

justakiwi
16-11-2017, 01:19 PM
I still fail to see why I should pay for other people's lifestyle choice to have however many children they want to have, no one pays me any benefit for the good lifestyle I choose to live.

Thats like saying why should your taxes should go towards education because you have no kids in school. Or why should your money pay for mental health costs because you don’t have a mental health condition. Or why should you contribute to infrastructure costs because you don’t have a car and you live off the grid.

If you feel exploited by your taxes contributing to the lives of other people maybe you’re living in the wrong country.

minimoke
16-11-2017, 01:56 PM
Thats like saying why should your taxes should go towards education because you have no kids in school. Or why should your money pay for mental health costs because you don’t have a mental health condition. Or why should you contribute to infrastructure costs because you don’t have a car and you live off the grid.

If you feel exploited by your taxes contributing to the lives of other people maybe you’re living in the wrong country.
If I didnt have to pay for others people's education I would be able to pay my own substantial mental health costs.

couta1
16-11-2017, 02:03 PM
Thats like saying why should your taxes should go towards education because you have no kids in school. Or why should your money pay for mental health costs because you don’t have a mental health condition. Or why should you contribute to infrastructure costs because you don’t have a car and you live off the grid.

If you feel exploited by your taxes contributing to the lives of other people maybe you’re living in the wrong country. There are essential services and then there are free lunch passes, spot the difference.

justakiwi
16-11-2017, 02:08 PM
There are essential services and then there are free lunch passes, spot the difference.

Before I respond to that can I ask if you have children?

minimoke
16-11-2017, 02:22 PM
Before I respond to that can I ask if you have children?
That is irrelevant. The issue is: why should people be encouraged to breed with financial assistance from the tax payer. If you cant afford kids on the first six -12 months of their life how do you think you can afford them in their older years. Simple answer is you make sure you can afford them before beginning the breeding programme.

couta1
16-11-2017, 02:30 PM
Before I respond to that can I ask if you have children? I have 4 grandchildren and my daughter got no paid parental leave as she was only working part time.

minimoke
16-11-2017, 02:37 PM
.... she was only working part time.Now there's a novel idea. Actually going out and earning for your child!

artemis
16-11-2017, 03:46 PM
..... From a mother’s perspective, I would rather see a parent home with a newborn for 26 weeks than two parents home for only 13.....

Well that's nice but not everyone thinks as you do. Would you want to force everyone to do what you think rather than what best suits their own circs? Why?

iceman
18-11-2017, 08:35 AM
Just looked up the Stuff website. 3 headlines screaming at me:
" Hey Labour, dads matter too"
"Acting PM proves a trainwreck"
"Does Labour have a debt problem"

Not bad after 3 weeks on the job !!

minimoke
18-11-2017, 08:55 AM
Just looked up the Stuff website. 3 headlines screaming at me:
" Hey Labour, dads matter too"
"Acting PM proves a trainwreck"
"Does Labour have a debt problem"

Not bad after 3 weeks on the job !!
Its hard to keep up

"Why labour irks older kiwis"

Seems the honeymoon is over already. And I'm not sure Winston the groom is even back in the House yet. A bit of cohabitation will see more interesting headlines

craic
20-11-2017, 03:29 PM
And now Helen Clarke is back running the country. Punch and Judy shows were thrown out years ago - now the Labour party are using all the old gear but the strings are worn out and we can expect some fun. WP will be Punch but who will shove their hand up the back of his shirt to operate him?

fungus pudding
20-11-2017, 04:11 PM
Its hard to keep up

"Why labour irks older kiwis"

Seems the honeymoon is over already. And I'm not sure Winston the groom is even back in the House yet. A bit of cohabitation will see more interesting headlines

The interesting headlines will be when Peter's fronts up as first to enter the Pike River mine , as he promised. Don't hold your breath for it though.

iceman
21-11-2017, 01:12 AM
So a new agency will get $7.6 million per year until 2021 to assess re-entry into Pike River. PM says her pre election commitment to re-enter the mine is now her "absolute ambition". No wonder they are starting to call her "Cindy Astern" !
And Winnie is strangely silent on his pre-election grandstanding saying he would lead the re-entry himself.

$30 odd million for what ?

Joshuatree
21-11-2017, 10:12 AM
Finding a crime scene maybe and retrieving bodies is what its all about. The families are involved and if they can do it safely( a bottom line for the families as well) it will be done, Reassessment underway in a transparent way.Great stuff.

fungus pudding
21-11-2017, 11:08 AM
Finding a crime scene maybe and retrieving bodies is what its all about. The families are involved and if they can do it safely( a bottom line for the families as well) it will be done, Reassessment underway in a transparent way.Great stuff.

Sounds exactly like National were trying for a few years. Just shove Winston in the mine like he's so keen to do.

RGR367
21-11-2017, 12:38 PM
Re-entry? Wait, as we need to spent $7M plus first to assess what this Pike River re-entry promise is :p
Even some die hard Labour supporters must be feeling some shame by now. Yippee-ki-yay, mother......!

Joshuatree
21-11-2017, 01:03 PM
Sounds exactly like National were trying for a few years. Just shove Winston in the mine like he's so keen to do.

I heard a better whisper than that. that he is being asked by USA to go to North Korea as a mediator:)

minimoke
21-11-2017, 01:06 PM
So a new agency will get $7.6 million per year until 2021 to assess re-entry into Pike River. PM says her pre election commitment to re-enter the mine is now her "absolute ambition". No wonder they are starting to call her "Cindy Astern" !
And Winnie is strangely silent on his pre-election grandstanding saying he would lead the re-entry himself.

$30 odd million for what ?
I have no idea where this money is going to go. I can only assume its a Labour Trickle Down theory in play that will help see people out of poverty. Solid Energy has already done loads of work on this as have the families. The worse case risks are known; mitigation strategies are known. All that is needed is knowledge of current methane levels and then send people down the drift bit by bit to work it out.
All this talk of "safety" drives me nuts. Its going to be a major handbrake preventing us from doing anything - and its a great scapegoat for allowing dishonest politicians a back door exit to sneak out of.

iceman
27-11-2017, 08:02 AM
Labour's tourism tax policy appears to be yet another ill thought out policy that may need backtracking on:

"Labour campaigned on charging international visitors a $25 per trip levy, with 60 per cent of funds collected going on tourism projects, and the rest going on conservation work.

Tourism Minister Kelvin Davis has asked for advice on implementing a levy, and last night said no decisions would be made until after that was received.

The previous National Government introduced a border clearance levy, which has meant people with a return ticket to or from New Zealand pay a total charge of about $22, included in their airfare.

Labour's plan for a new charge would come on top of that, but only affect visitors who are not citizens or residents of New Zealand.

Tourism Industry Aotearoa's chief executive Chris Roberts told the Herald the proposal as outlined pre-election, "is not actually implementable".

"We can only find one border tax in the world where local passport holders and residents are excluded from paying it. And that is in Mexico, but Mexicans who fly out of Mexico have to pay and then seek reimbursement," Roberts said.

"Unless they are going to set up booths at the airport to collect the tax, to put two different prices into all the airline systems around the world . . . that is a complication that they haven't thought through.

"We are yet to see how it could be workable. It would essentially be coming up with a world first.""

Rep
27-11-2017, 08:24 AM
Tourism Industry Aotearoa's chief executive Chris Roberts told the Herald the proposal as outlined pre-election, "is not actually implementable".

"We can only find one border tax in the world where local passport holders and residents are excluded from paying it. And that is in Mexico, but Mexicans who fly out of Mexico have to pay and then seek reimbursement," Roberts said.

"Unless they are going to set up booths at the airport to collect the tax, to put two different prices into all the airline systems around the world . . . that is a complication that they haven't thought through.

"We are yet to see how it could be workable. It would essentially be coming up with a world first.""

When so many of the local populace being permanent residents and dual nationals then you can only describe this is as a government bureaucrat job scheme. I can't imagine Sabre or Amadeus going to do a mountain of development to register a separate identity document for travel to allow passengers would are NZ nationals or those with residency visas to pay a different fare, let alone a aggregator like TriVago or Expedia to change their interface to facilitate exemptions in airfares.

I can't see booths at arrivals and departures with passengers queuing up to show they paid the $25 levy, then processing their ID documents and handing out $25 in cash, credit card refunds or international bank transfers being part of a seamless visitor experience or streamlining the chaos at Auckland Airport when a bunch of inbound aircraft arrive at peak times - I can only assume that they will have to exempt Australians because they don't give them a residency visa or alternatively we'll all be queuing up to pay $25 entry arriving in Australia as kiwis in a tit-for-tat with the Turnbull Government.

The alternative is paper or online forms, scanned documents and refund processing and another wing of Internal Affairs.... or they say exemptions are too hard and we all get paddled an Sir Apirana Ngata everytime we head to Australia - $25 for NZ and $25 for Oz because anything we do to Australian citizens will be matched here and the NZ Labour led Government and the Australian Government are getting along so well.

minimoke
05-12-2017, 11:10 AM
Hmmm - thinking hat time. I wonder what I can go and study next year with my new free fees Special Tax Dividend.

Edit. I like the sound of this: Diploma in Professional Scuba Instruction at DiveHQ.

Or maybe a bit of surfing. I can do Surf and Beach Education at Ara where I get to learn surfing technique

Theres also a Diploma In Skydiving - that could be "educational"

Theres also a NZSFW Certificate in Cocktail and Mixology

fungus pudding
05-12-2017, 11:21 AM
Hmmm - thinking hat time. I wonder what I can go and study next year with my new free fees Special Tax Dividend.

Edit. I like the sound of this: Diploma in Professional Scuba Instruction at DiveHQ.

Or maybe a bit of surfing. I can do Surf and Beach Education at Ara where I get to learn surfing technique

Theres also a Diploma In Skydiving - that could be "educational"

Theres also a NZSFW Certificate in Cocktail and Mixology

I'd go for the mixology. Sounds likev a great career move. I've never heard of an unemployed mixologist.

iceman
06-12-2017, 09:46 AM
So Cindy Astern is now looking for a CEO for a new agency to assess re-entry into Pike River Mine. He/she could be liable for several millions of dollars in fines or jail time if something goes wrong. I think this is a perfect job for Little himself or Peters, to show how brave (or stupid) they really are.

" From Stuff:
" However, the briefing documents show the way the agency would run, and while Little would be in charge of overseeing the agency and make the final call on re-entry, the chief executive of the agency would be liable for any decisions."

t.rexjr
06-12-2017, 10:25 AM
Hmmm - thinking hat time. I wonder what I can go and study next year with my new free fees Special Tax Dividend.

Edit. I like the sound of this: Diploma in Professional Scuba Instruction at DiveHQ.

Or maybe a bit of surfing. I can do Surf and Beach Education at Ara where I get to learn surfing technique

Theres also a Diploma In Skydiving - that could be "educational"

Theres also a NZSFW Certificate in Cocktail and Mixology

These sound great! I've got nothing better to do. I love cocktails, and throwing myself off things afterwards...

minimoke
06-12-2017, 10:35 AM
So Cindy Astern is now looking for a CEO for a new agency to assess re-entry into Pike River Mine. He/she could be liable for several millions of dollars in fines or jail time if something goes wrong. I think this is a perfect job for Little himself or Peters, to show how brave (or stupid) they really are.

" From Stuff:
" However, the briefing documents show the way the agency would run, and while Little would be in charge of overseeing the agency and make the final call on re-entry, the chief executive of the agency would be liable for any decisions."
This whole talk of Liability is a total red herring. Of course Little was never going to be responsible. A minister wouldn't be, never has been and there is nothing in the law that allows for it.

As for the CEO. He/she will be fine. All he/she has to do is apply the same care, skill and diligence that a reasonable person would do in the same circumstances taking into account it is a mine / tunnel reentry. Do those things and kill a few people and there will be no "guilty" verdict if charged. Of curse no-one will be killed and it is extremely unlikely anyone will die.

I wouldn't mind Little heading down there since this was a mine that according to him had excellent safety standards. As for Peter he volunteered so I have no problems with him leading the charge

winner69
06-12-2017, 12:19 PM
Jian Yang was the Chinese influencer in the National Government. So much influencing going on that the general public should be concerned. Enough material to Labour to stir this up as an election issue but they were strangely very quiet on the issue

Now that the Chinese influencing role has passed to Labour MP Raymond Huo no doubt the ‘influencing’ will go on.

Wonder why the President of the Labour Party attended a recent Chinese Communist Party Congress?

Professor Brady has a brilliant paper Magic Weapons: Chins’s political influence activities under Xi Jinping
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/for_website_magicweaponsanne-mariesbradyseptember2017.pdf

winner69
06-12-2017, 01:35 PM
Professor Anne-Marie Brady
Global Fellow, Wilson Center, Washington, DC

A completely unbiased report from someone deeply embedded in the evil empire propaganda service.




University of Canterbury since 2001

BlackPeter
06-12-2017, 01:59 PM
I'll see you, and raise with this free, to first year students, higher qualification:

http://foodandwine.co.nz/wine/certificate-in-professional-wine-knowledge-sommelier/

Nice find - though it doesn't say whether learning materials are included in the tuition fees ...

BlackPeter
06-12-2017, 02:28 PM
Yes it does. Halfway down in orange sidebar:

"Fees include WSET® examination fees, textbooks, wine tastings, day trips and guest lectures."

I'm signing up tomorrow. :D

Yippeah! One must love this government - great to hear that Jacinda invited us to drink for free - mighty nice of her.

But wait - who is going to pay when the music stops?

minimoke
06-12-2017, 02:41 PM
I'll see you, and raise with this free, to first year students, higher qualification:

http://foodandwine.co.nz/wine/certificate-in-professional-wine-knowledge-sommelier/
Thats excellent - its only 12 weeks and I get a year free. Time for my Mixolgy course as well!

westerly
06-12-2017, 03:01 PM
Jian Yang was the Chinese influencer in the National Government. So much influencing going on that the general public should be concerned. Enough material to Labour to stir this up as an election issue but they were strangely very quiet on the issue

Now that the Chinese influencing role has passed to Labour MP Raymond Huo no doubt the ‘influencing’ will go on.

Wonder why the President of the Labour Party attended a recent Chinese Communist Party Congress?

Professor Brady has a brilliant paper Magic Weapons: Chins’s political influence activities under Xi Jinping
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/for_website_magicweaponsanne-mariesbradyseptember2017.pdf

BEIJING, Oct. 21 (Xinhua) -- The ongoing 19th Communist Party of China (CPC) National Congress has received good wishes from foreign leaders, political parties and organizations around the world.

The messages speak highly of the CPC's leadership as well as China's socio-economic development and global contributions, and express full confidence that the CPC will lead China to even greater prosperity.

The following is an edited version of some of these messages.

Peter Goodfellow, president of the New Zealand National Party

The 19th CPC National Congress will be of great significance to China's socio-economic development in the next five years and beyond. New Zealand welcomes China's Belt and Road Initiative and looks forward to extensive and in-depth cooperation with China under the initiative.

Along with the Blue Dragons National was there first. I wonder why ?
westerly

winner69
13-12-2017, 03:30 PM
Hey EZ - what’s up with this secret 30 odd page paper that Labour are refusing to release even though they and Winston said they would. You know the one about directives to new ministers post coalition agreement.

Also Grant Robertson seems to be doing sneaky things out of the public eye (ie no consultation) in the review of the Reserve Bank Act.

I thought you (and Joshua) were all for the greater transparency that Jacinda and her government were going to bring.

Not looking like it’s happening

Probably now in power they start acting just like the last lot

fungus pudding
13-12-2017, 04:36 PM
Probably now in power they start acting just like the last lot

Unfortunately they won't.

Joshuatree
13-12-2017, 05:32 PM
Hey EZ - what’s up with this secret 30 odd page paper that Labour are refusing to release even though they and Winston said they would. You know the one about directives to new ministers post coalition agreement.

Also Grant Robertson seems to be doing sneaky things out of the public eye (ie no consultation) in the review of the Reserve Bank Act.

I thought you (and Joshua) were all for the greater transparency that Jacinda and her government were going to bring.

Not looking like it’s happening

Probably now in power they start acting just like the last lot

When you have an opposition who considers you the enemy to be attacked and taken down at ANY opp one has to be prudent. When you have an opposition who dont want to be reasonable as in my previous example but will take any cheap shot they can regardless of whats good for NZ , one needs to be prudent. National will be given opps to collaborate despite this behaviour. Will they change their spots; i dont think so, consigning themselves to stay where they are for a few terms yet imo.An irrelevant stagnant backwater.

777
13-12-2017, 07:08 PM
When you have an opposition who considers you the enemy to be attacked and taken down at ANY opp one has to be prudent. When you have an opposition who dont want to be reasonable as in my previous example but will take any cheap shot they can regardless of whats good for NZ , one needs to be prudent. National will be given opps to collaborate despite this behaviour. Will they change their spots; i dont think so, consigning themselves to stay where they are for a few terms yet imo.An irrelevant stagnant backwater.

You are right JT. National only need to sit back and watch the coalition destroy themselves.

Joshuatree
14-12-2017, 06:44 AM
Maybe that would be a better strategy for them 777, the more National attacks the more the coalition realise they have to collaborate and be united.
Looks like its the Nats only opposing the end of life bill.? On religious grounds by the looks or plain antagonistic, insensitive to the suffering people with terminal illnesses have to endure. .Just goes to show how far out of touch they are with compassion and the real world,MMP and owning up to their tactical blunders last election. Mind you the lying helped them but in future they won't be trusted.

777
14-12-2017, 08:16 AM
Maybe that would be a better strategy for them 777, the more National attacks the more the coalition realise they have to collaborate and be united.
Looks like its the Nats only opposing the end of life bill.? On religious grounds by the looks or plain antagonistic, insensitive to the suffering people with terminal illnesses have to endure. .Just goes to show how far out of touch they are with compassion and the real world,MMP and owning up to their tactical blunders last election. Mind you the lying helped them but in future they won't be trusted.

Look for your self. Some Labour against and some National for.



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11959128

Joshuatree
14-12-2017, 11:06 PM
Thanks.

labour delivering on its promises re child poverty. fantastic stuff

Families look forward to budget boost for 'the little things' (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/346235/families-look-forward-to-budget-boost-for-the-little-things)
Audrey Young: Stunning impact for Govt package (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11959893)

iceman
15-12-2017, 06:36 AM
Maybe that would be a better strategy for them 777, the more National attacks the more the coalition realise they have to collaborate and be united.
Looks like its the Nats only opposing the end of life bill.? On religious grounds by the looks or plain antagonistic, insensitive to the suffering people with terminal illnesses have to endure. .Just goes to show how far out of touch they are with compassion and the real world,MMP and owning up to their tactical blunders last election. Mind you the lying helped them but in future they won't be trusted.
What a ridiculous post. This issue is not decided o political leanings and it is great. Sad you still want to play politics with it. Sadly I think NZ is being left behind on some issues because we politicise them unreasonably, as you've done here.

A couple of weeks ago NZ media said Iceland got a "Jacinda" for PM with a new "Left Green PM". But there's huge difference with a 3 party majority Government from Right to Left with a 100 year old regional based centrist party smack bang in the middle. One of their first policies is to raise age of super to 70, by 2042, starting 1 Jan 2018. Age of elegibility increases by 2 months for each of next 12 years and 1 month next 12 years.. So those starting to receive super in 2042 will have to be 70. Why the hell can NZ not agree on something sensible like this ? Stupid politics !

BlackPeter
15-12-2017, 07:19 AM
Thanks.

labour delivering on its promises re child poverty. fantastic stuff

Families look forward to budget boost for 'the little things' (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/346235/families-look-forward-to-budget-boost-for-the-little-things)
Audrey Young: Stunning impact for Govt package (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11959893)

Great stuff - more smokes and booze for the parents - this will certainly help the poor little things!

Joshuatree
15-12-2017, 07:45 AM
What a ridiculous post. This issue is not decided o political leanings and it is great. Sad you still want to play politics with it. Sadly I think NZ is being left behind on some issues because we politicise them unreasonably, as you've done here.

A couple of weeks ago NZ media said Iceland got a "Jacinda" for PM with a new "Left Green PM". But there's huge difference with a 3 party majority Government from Right to Left with a 100 year old regional based centrist party smack bang in the middle. One of their first policies is to raise age of super to 70, by 2042, starting 1 Jan 2018. Age of elegibility increases by 2 months for each of next 12 years and 1 month next 12 years.. So those starting to receive super in 2042 will have to be 70. Why the hell can NZ not agree on something sensible like this ? Stupid politics !

Being offensive comes easy for the iceman.
Being compassionate is not a word the iceman understands , i hope he can melt a little .

Joshuatree
15-12-2017, 07:47 AM
Great stuff - more smokes and booze for the parents - this will certainly help the poor little things!

There are always some who would do what you selfishly would do but most want the best for their kids.

777
15-12-2017, 07:49 AM
Being offensive comes easy for the iceman.
Being compassionate is not a word the iceman understands , i hope he can melt a little .

But he so correct JT. As is BlackPeter.

All this Government is doing is giving away fish instead of fishing rods. They do it knowing that it will not achieve what they say it will but will keep their voting base up. Even a blind person can see this. Keep them wanting and offer them more next time.

It is bad parenting that is the cause of this "child poverty".

Joshuatree
15-12-2017, 07:54 AM
You guys are so out of touch with the reality of poverty. Im wishing you some soon so that you will finally get a taste of what it is like; for xmas. Will throw in some crackers laced with compassion and empathy. some very scary detached 'Uman beens out there.

fungus pudding
15-12-2017, 08:00 AM
You guys are so out of touch with the reality of poverty.

That's arguable and probably untrue. What is inarguable is 777's comment 'All this Government is doing is giving away fish instead of fishing rods.'

winner69
15-12-2017, 08:17 AM
I felt really embarrassed at the supermarket when the trolley had tins of tomatoes, chickpeas and a bag of barley in it.

The checkout lady looked me up and down and maybe thought I was poor but obviously had second thoughts as she said nice of me to think of the poor but she pointed out that some food banks don’t take such stuff.

No I said it’s for me ....see that ham hock in the trolley as well ....put that with the tomatoes and chickpeas and barley and a few other things in the crock pot you get a scrumptious stew. Really yummy with Morrocan spices and even in summer I love this for dinner with fresh bread and say a Hans Herzog Pinot Gris sitting out on the deck.

blackcap
15-12-2017, 08:18 AM
But he so correct JT. As is BlackPeter.

All this Government is doing is giving away fish instead of fishing rods. They do it knowing that it will not achieve what they say it will but will keep their voting base up. Even a blind person can see this. Keep them wanting and offer them more next time.

It is bad parenting that is the cause of this "child poverty".

Well said. Its very often poverddy (as Jacinda would call it) of ideas not poverty of means. Bad parenting indeed, putting their own laziness and apathy ahead of the kids needs. Just like the refuge owner the other day complaining about tomatoes and chick peas, it almost seems endemic in this country.... we need more more more. Just like Africa, just keep throwing money at it without solving the problem.

iceman
15-12-2017, 10:53 AM
I felt really embarrassed at the supermarket when the trolley had tins of tomatoes, chickpeas and a bag of barley in it.

The checkout lady looked me up and down and maybe thought I was poor but obviously had second thoughts as she said nice of me to think of the poor but she pointed out that some food banks don’t take such stuff.

No I said it’s for me ....see that ham hock in the trolley as well ....put that with the tomatoes and chickpeas and barley and a few other things in the crock pot you get a scrumptious stew. Really yummy with Morrocan spices and even in summer I love this for dinner with fresh bread and say a Hans Herzog Pinot Gris sitting out on the deck.

Thankfully you will very soon receive the winter heating allowance to pay for the Pinot to complement the chickpeas & tomato based 5 star meal :-)

minimoke
15-12-2017, 11:14 AM
You guys are so out of touch with the reality of poverty. Im wishing you some soon so that you will finally get a taste of what it is like;.Geez that's pretty offensive and uncompassionate! Surprised you don't cop a time out on the naughty step for that one.

minimoke
15-12-2017, 11:17 AM
but she pointed out that some food banks don’t take such stuff.

.
I was drifting in and out of the radio the other day and heard something about tinned tomatoes not being wanted by a charity. I thought WTF - its got to be a joke. Didnt listen in the rest.

Seriously - do food banks not want tinned tomaotes. If that's the case, where beggars can afford to be fussy then there's not much poverty in NZ.

Minerbarejet
15-12-2017, 11:35 AM
I was drifting in and out of the radio the other day and heard something about tinned tomatoes not being wanted by a charity. I thought WTF - its got to be a joke. Didnt listen in the rest.

Seriously - do food banks not want tinned tomaotes. If that's the case, where beggars can afford to be fussy then there's not much poverty in NZ.
Tomatoes are Ok its the Tomaotes they dont want.:)

craic
15-12-2017, 12:20 PM
So I use my chainsaws and axes to fill my sheds with wood and in the winter I keep the house roasting with my wood and my water (rainwater) boiling away furiously and my power bill drops way below its summer rate. Now I am going to receive hundreds of dollars a year to keep warm? And then some clown suggests that I might decline it? Oh! I forgot - the bottles of brandy and Rum and Bourbon that come out of my shed to keep me warm. But don't worry - the cost of methamphetamine is to rise to take up the surplus.

RGR367
15-12-2017, 01:47 PM
Though it was promised, you guys should not be shouting with glee about this winter is coming money as they might take it back even before I receive my first super entitlement :) But no matter what, my share of the bounty will go straight to Squirrel or Harmoney to help those looking out for loans. Take that as my way of "opting out" to the largesse. Lol.

westerly
15-12-2017, 02:27 PM
That's arguable and probably untrue. What is inarguable is 777's comment 'All this Government is doing is giving away fish instead of fishing rods.'

Fishing rods are of no use. National took the water out of the rivers and gave it to dairy farmers and allowed the big fishing companies to trawl the ocean unchecked.

westerly

BlackPeter
15-12-2017, 04:03 PM
Fishing rods are of no use. National took the water out of the rivers and gave it to dairy farmers and allowed the big fishing companies to trawl the ocean unchecked.

westerly

Cheap and irrelevant remark - and you know that.

Sad - Lefties are miserable when in opposition and not better when in government! Why don't you guys stop complaining and do something positive instead? Otherwise the time of being in power might be short ... which - on the other hand, would be a good thing, so just keep complaining ;);

Funny to learn that you guys spent (well, allocated) already all the taxpayers money at your avail after only two months in power - and this is assuming a constant 3% economic growth for the next 5 years. Pretty optimistic if we look into the past. What possibly could go wrong?

We better don't have another Earthquake or GFC during the Left reign ... we couldn't afford to pay for it.

Joshuatree
15-12-2017, 05:00 PM
Cheap and irrelevant remark-
and you know that:t_up:ROFL

A mirror is handy to practice in front of as long as its in your "wriggle room". Have a great weekend, finished my day with a smile, cheers JT

westerly
15-12-2017, 05:15 PM
Cheap and irrelevant remark - and you know that.

Sad - Lefties are miserable when in opposition and not better when in government! Why don't you guys stop complaining and do something positive instead? Otherwise the time of being in power might be short ... which - on the other hand, would be a good thing, so just keep complaining ;);

Funny to learn that you guys spent (well, allocated) already all the taxpayers money at your avail after only two months in power - and this is assuming a constant 3% economic growth for the next 5 years. Pretty optimistic if we look into the past. What possibly could go wrong?

We better don't have another Earthquake or GFC during the Left reign ... we couldn't afford to pay for it.

No more cheap or irrelevant than your "smokes and booze post" Or the posts on tomatoes and food banks although the Salvation Army were happy to take them. The reason being the poor cannot afford the Morrocan spices or the ham hock let alone the Pinot gris at $50.00 a bottle.
Yeah, maybe they should have the culinary skills to make a resonable meal out of cheaper food but sadly many don't as the news article said.
The "right" seems to be miserable and moaning at the moment to, but do not worry if the promised 3% growth is too optomistic taxes can be increased to cover the shortfall and to recover some of the profits generated by following Milton Friedmans policies. :)

westerly

BlackPeter
15-12-2017, 05:34 PM
... but do not worry if the promised 3% growth is too optomistic taxes can be increased to cover the shortfall and to recover some of the profits generated by following Milton Friedmans policies. :)

westerly

Really? So you are saying the Left is not just incompetent but as well a bunch of liars? I am disappointed, westerly - remember - Jacinda clearly promised prior to the elections not to increase taxes ...

westerly
15-12-2017, 06:25 PM
Really? So you are saying the Left is not just incompetent but as well a bunch of liars? I am disappointed, westerly - remember - Jacinda clearly promised prior to the elections not to increase taxes ...

Wake up, aren't all politicians incompetent and liars, both sides seem to think so. :)

westerly

Joshuatree
15-12-2017, 06:27 PM
I dont think joyce was lying now. He knew all the hidden $billion dollar holes where national hadn't funded as well as holding back the climate change report. What a mess. National has been acting like trump downunder when it comes to people, environment, culture and fairness unfort.

fungus pudding
15-12-2017, 06:37 PM
I dont think joyce was lying now. He knew all the hidden $billion dollar holes where national hadn't funded as well as holding back the climate change report. What a mess. National has been acting like trump downunder when it comes to people, environment, culture and fairness unfort.
Yes. Labour will claim that throughout their term even though nothing was hidden. But it will give them some cover when their budget turns to custard

Joshuatree
20-12-2017, 05:33 PM
Great achievements by labour already quite amazing in fact. And to see andrew little acknowledged yass:t_up: Never a truer word with winstons last lines in this article with his usual wit.:)

article.cfm (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11963423)

RGR367
21-12-2017, 01:53 PM
The new gov't should be improving on this https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/100069068/latest-gdp-figure-revealed and we'll see how they compare when they already said they inherited a mess.

fungus pudding
21-12-2017, 02:12 PM
The new gov't should be improving on this https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/100069068/latest-gdp-figure-revealed and we'll see how they compare when they already said they inherited a mess.
That's just to set the stage so that once they've turned it into a mess, which is not going to take very long, they can continue to blame the previous administration for 'the mess they inherited.'

westerly
21-12-2017, 03:35 PM
That's just to set the stage so that once they've turned it into a mess, which is not going to take very long, they can continue to blame the previous administration for 'the mess they inherited.'

Why not . National did it for many years.

westerly

fungus pudding
21-12-2017, 03:47 PM
Why not . National did it for many years.

westerly

True, but for legitimate reasons.

elZorro
21-12-2017, 09:38 PM
True, but for legitimate reasons.

Like the poor repayment of old crown debt perhaps. Labour did really badly at that.

777
22-12-2017, 07:03 AM
Remind us what Labour did with the the railways just before they lost to National. And don't forget the the GFC that National handled well in the early part of their governance. Also look at the trend at the end of the graph bearing in mind that Labour have already stated that they will not be reducing at the same rate as what National intended.

Please remember to show us an updated graph in three years time when National are back in power.

Joshuatree
22-12-2017, 07:19 AM
Like the optimism 777. National back would be like applauding trump for his tax cuts, the rich getting richer. National back in power or labour back in govt, im sure the people will see the difference and whats better for them. Already amazing changes. The health system run down by national is the elephant in the room.How many people have died or suffered waiting in vain.

BlackPeter
22-12-2017, 07:31 AM
Like the optimism 777. National back would be like applauding trump for his tax cuts, the rich getting richer. National back in power or labour back in govt, im sure the people will see the difference and whats better for them. Already amazing changes. The health system run down by national is the elephant in the room.How many people have died or suffered waiting in vain.

Pretty revolting post. Mentioning National and this sick US idiot in one sentence is like saying that Labour is worse than the bubonic plague.

JT - You should be ashamed of yourself, if you still have any decency. Given that your posts compute less and less will I put you on ignore. Waste of time.

fungus pudding
22-12-2017, 07:46 AM
Like the poor repayment of old crown debt perhaps. Labour did really badly at that.

Waste of time, clinging to the past with either party. Times and circumstances change, parties policies change as do the MPs. That is why I'm a swinging voter, as objective voters should be. The current difference between National and Labour is really what matters. And that main difference is Labour is over-run with bleeding heart dreamers of little world experience, while National has people of real life experience, although there are a couple of exceptions in both main parties. Neither party will ever get it all right, annd even the worst parties seem to do the odd sensible thing. Your blind acceptance of Labour's every move, and constant disapproval of National's every utterance, has destroyed your credibility.

Joshuatree
22-12-2017, 07:52 AM
Pretty revolting post. Mentioning National and this sick US idiot in one sentence is like saying that Labour is worse than the bubonic plague.

JT - You should be ashamed of yourself, if you still have any decency. Given that your posts compute less and less will I put you on ignore. Waste of time.

Find the truth and the truth will set you free.:). Keep casting stones, i like the rings they make.Maximas Merrimas.

This coalition is for the people and the environment ,im all for that. The alternative is inreasingly obviously transparently selfishly not.Exposed and redundant imo.

Joshuatree
22-12-2017, 08:05 AM
Waste of time, clinging to the past with either party. Times and circumstances change, parties policies change as do the MPs. That is why I'm a swinging voter, as objective voters should be. The current difference between National and Labour is really what matters. And that main difference is Labour is over-run with bleeding heart dreamers of little world experience, while National has people of real life experience, although there are a couple of exceptions in both main parties. Neither party will ever get it all right, annd even the worst parties seem to do the odd sensible thing. Your blind acceptance of Labour's every move, and constant disapproval of National's every utterance, has destroyed your credibility.

Still a lot of bitter twisted combat minded national supporters and members out there seeking revenge. It will ultimately destroy the party and thats a good thing. I look forward to the the new National phoenix arising from the ashes sometime in the distant future when they have learnt to release the ill will rather than hanging on to it at their cost. Forgive and renew and move on.

ps Mudthrowing self appointed judgements coming from a dungeon?

winner69
22-12-2017, 09:50 AM
Like the poor repayment of old crown debt perhaps. Labour did really badly at that.

Nice chart EZ

Suppose the columns will start getting taller again .....yes?