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dobby41
13-08-2021, 01:24 PM
Aim for 100, call it the target. Obviously you get what you get.

People seem to want to know at what % we can open the border.
If we have a target of 100% won't people just say 'well that's impossible so the Govt just wants to keep us locked up'?
It's the vaccination target before we open that people want.
They have already said that they want as many as possible vaccinated and that they have ordered enough for everyone.

fungus pudding
13-08-2021, 01:52 PM
People seem to want to know at what % we can open the border.


Some people might want to know. I don't. There is new information daily which will help provide an answer to that. That's as much as I know. Don't let it worry you.

Balance
13-08-2021, 01:57 PM
Some people might want to know. I don't. There is new information daily which will help provide an answer to that. That's as much as I know. Don't let it worry you.

10,000 new homes build a year?

Logen Ninefingers
13-08-2021, 02:08 PM
10,000 new homes build a year?

That's where they went wrong. They set a target. Because they set a target it followed that those that are "just complacent, or lazy" - i.e. Twyford, Woods, and the rest - couldn't be stuffed trying to meet it.

dobby41
13-08-2021, 02:17 PM
Some people might want to know. I don't. There is new information daily which will help provide an answer to that. That's as much as I know. Don't let it worry you.

It doesn't worry me - this discussion didn't come from worry.

dobby41
13-08-2021, 02:19 PM
That's where they went wrong. They set a target. Because they set a target it followed that those that are "just complacent, or lazy" - i.e. Twyford, Woods, and the rest - couldn't be stuffed trying to meet it.

What do you think the target should be - if not 100%?
Should the country open if we then don't reach that target (vaccine hesitancy etc)? Stay closed?
I am curious as to what angle some people are coming from.

fungus pudding
13-08-2021, 02:29 PM
That's where they went wrong. They set a target. Because they set a target it followed that those that are "just complacent, or lazy" - i.e. Twyford, Woods, and the rest - couldn't be stuffed trying to meet it.

I don't think complacency or laziness comes into it. They simply didn't know how to, so incompetence is the problem.

Blue Skies
13-08-2021, 04:53 PM
Here's an excellent explanation of how our very complicated electricity market works for those like myself who didn't fully understand it. Lots of moving parts.

Plus some insights into the causes of the power blackout last week.
At the bare minimum there should have been some warning given to consumers, to my mind that was irresponsible, reckless.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/126023657/the-new-zealand-electricity-market-explained

Blue Skies
13-08-2021, 08:22 PM
Which is interesting.
Should those who refuse to be vaccinated be given hospital treatment if they get covid?
Save the limited hospital beds for those who do the right thing.
You make your choice so bear the consequences (make your bed and lie in it).


That's a very good point esp with our free public health system. Would be great if they were billed for the consequences of their stupidity including those they infect.

I see on the news tonight in Missouri and Louisiana vaccination rates are only 37% and 35% with some churches actively undermining the vaccine roll out.
Unbelievable seeing a pastor saying his job was to preach trust in faith as opposed to trust in the vaccine when these guys have so much influence.
Mainly Trump-land of course.
Meanwhile hospital doctors saying they are overwhelmed with cases, people dying unnessesarily, and also cases now of a few people wearing disguises to get vaccinated as they are scared of disapproval & rejection from their congregations if recognised.


Also in Texas a surging number of children seriously sick with Covid.
Makes me think we are being far too complacent about vaccinating our children here.
I've always though NZ does not have a particularly child friendly culture, i.e. compared to some countries our kids aren't always as high a priority as they should be.

jonu
13-08-2021, 08:39 PM
Which is interesting.
Should those who refuse to be vaccinated be given hospital treatment if they get covid?
Save the limited hospital beds for those who do the right thing.
You make your choice so bear the consequences (make your bed and lie in it).

And this is where it leads.
Seemingly decent people heading down the route of tyranny. Do you advocate the same for smokers? Or people who consume too much sugar? Shall we limit their movement? Perhaps put yellow triangles on their clothing so we can be sure of who THEY are.

It seems to me, most here are concerned on behalf of others. EG, they will be vaccinated but are concerned for those who aren't, or for the development of variants.

Firstly, variants are going to happen, more than likely from offshore and find their way here. Thinking we can stop them is akin to thinking reducing NZ's carbon emissions has any effect.

Secondly, be wary of people who want to curtail rights and freedoms out of a concern for others. It is seldom the case if history can teach us anything.

Blue Skies
13-08-2021, 08:48 PM
And this is where it leads.
Seemingly decent people heading down the route of tyranny. Do you advocate the same for smokers? Or people who consume too much sugar? Shall we limit their movement? Perhaps put yellow triangles on their clothing so we can be sure of who THEY are.

It seems to me, most here are concerned on behalf of others. EG, they will be vaccinated but are concerned for those who aren't, or for the development of variants.

Firstly, variants are going to happen, more than likely from offshore and find their way here. Thinking we can stop them is akin to thinking reducing NZ's carbon emissions has any effect.

Secondly, be wary of people who want to curtail rights and freedoms out of a concern for others. It is seldom the case if history can teach us anything.


I hear what you're saying but the big difference is (considerate) smokers etc only damage their own health whereas anti-vaxers in a pandemic infect, damage & even kill others.

Balance
13-08-2021, 09:13 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/08/locals-devastated-as-house-prices-soar-in-small-nz-town-families-struggle-to-find-rentals.html

The housing disaster worsens (hard to believe it can get any worse but it has) with rental properties being sold as first home buyers buy properties outside of Auckland.

Watch the waiting list for state & emergency housing grow longer and longer.

Kiwibuild, anyone?

fungus pudding
14-08-2021, 08:12 AM
And this is where it leads.
Seemingly decent people heading down the route of tyranny. Do you advocate the same for smokers? Or people who consume too much sugar? Shall we limit their movement? Perhaps put yellow triangles on their clothing so we can be sure of who THEY are.

It seems to me, most here are concerned on behalf of others. EG, they will be vaccinated but are concerned for those who aren't, or for the development of variants.

Firstly, variants are going to happen, more than likely from offshore and find their way here. Thinking we can stop them is akin to thinking reducing NZ's carbon emissions has any effect.

Secondly, be wary of people who want to curtail rights and freedoms out of a concern for others. It is seldom the case if history can teach us anything.

What about those who wish to curtail rights and freedoms of others, out of concern for themselves?

jonu
14-08-2021, 08:25 AM
What about those who wish to curtail rights and freedoms of others, out of concern for themselves?

Aaah, good old whataboutery.

We all have the potential for violence. What about that bloke on the bus that looked at me funny? I'm concerned for my safety. Who knows what he might do? I know, I'll ban him from the bus because of the potential for him to do me harm.

iceman
14-08-2021, 08:31 AM
What do you think the target should be - if not 100%?
Should the country open if we then don't reach that target (vaccine hesitancy etc)? Stay closed?
I am curious as to what angle some people are coming from.

I sadly think we need to give a few more months due to the very slow and poor vaccination plan, until we reach about 80%. Then we should start opening the border by allowing in fully vaccinated people requiring a negative PCR test and no MIQ.
The Government needs to realise and accept that the MIQ booking system is a complete farce and failure and do away with it. Control incoming passenger numbers through airlines selling seats, with a set % in economy class (i.e. cheap). That's my angle.
An elimination strategy is a fallacy.

iceman
14-08-2021, 08:34 AM
I hear what you're saying but the big difference is (considerate) smokers etc only damage their own health whereas anti-vaxers in a pandemic infect, damage & even kill others.

But what happened ? Are we not "be kind', "team of 5 million" ? Or are we just a selfish lot ?

fungus pudding
14-08-2021, 08:44 AM
Aaah, good old whataboutery.

We all have the potential for violence. What about that bloke on the bus that looked at me funny? I'm concerned for my safety. Who knows what he might do? I know, I'll ban him from the bus because of the potential for him to do me harm.

Which of dourse is quite different from having contagious, infected people wandering freely, unidentified, in the midst of others.

dobby41
14-08-2021, 09:16 AM
And this is where it leads.
Seemingly decent people heading down the route of tyranny. Do you advocate the same for smokers? Or people who consume too much sugar? Shall we limit their movement? Perhaps put yellow triangles on their clothing so we can be sure of who THEY are.

It seems to me, most here are concerned on behalf of others. EG, they will be vaccinated but are concerned for those who aren't, or for the development of variants.

Firstly, variants are going to happen, more than likely from offshore and find their way here. Thinking we can stop them is akin to thinking reducing NZ's carbon emissions has any effect.

Secondly, be wary of people who want to curtail rights and freedoms out of a concern for others. It is seldom the case if history can teach us anything.

I'm not advocating anything - spruiking ideas only.

When we open covid will come.
Those unvaccinated will get it (vaccinated will too but have less effect generally (nothing with this is absolute)) and a large number could end up in hospitals.
This could stretch the system and people with other issues will have their treatment delayed.
The effect is more than just covid.

jonu
14-08-2021, 09:30 AM
Which of dourse is quite different from having contagious, infected people wandering freely, unidentified, in the midst of others.

Vaccinated people can also be infected and contagious. Being unvaccinated doesn't make you infected and contagious. There is the potential, hence my analogy to violence.

Life can never be made risk free. At some point we as a country have to choose to get on with life and live with Covid. As the rest of the world appears to be doing. We are just in for the shock of Community transmission from which we have been bubble wrapped to this point.

Blue Skies
14-08-2021, 10:00 AM
But what happened ? Are we not "be kind', "team of 5 million" ? Or are we just a selfish lot ?



No, surely you can see most people are kind & considerate of others, just a very small percentage of selfish or deluded anti-vaxers who unfortunately put the rest of the population/team at risk.

Bjauck
14-08-2021, 11:16 AM
I hear what you're saying but the big difference is (considerate) smokers etc only damage their own health whereas anti-vaxers in a pandemic infect, damage & even kill others. After vaccinations have penetrated those who want it, Anti-vaxers would "tend" to harm much more other anti-vaxers - just as other "considerate" smokers "tend" to harm much more other "considerate" smokers in their huddles outside buildings etc.

Edit: Covid variant progression is a big concern of course. If refusing a vaccination is within a person's legal rights there is no way NZ could refuse the full range of medical services available to a NZ resident.

Blue Skies
14-08-2021, 11:43 AM
Vaccinated people can also be infected and contagious. Being unvaccinated doesn't make you infected and contagious. There is the potential, hence my analogy to violence.

Life can never be made risk free. At some point we as a country have to choose to get on with life and live with Covid. As the rest of the world appears to be doing. We are just in for the shock of Community transmission from which we have been bubble wrapped to this point.


This often repeated euphemism of, 'getting on with life and living with Covid' is such a fantasy & contradiction.

Not much respect shown to the 4.3 million people who have died ( actual number much higher as countries like China under report ) in not much over 12 months, with over 200 million cases with a percentage suffering severe life threatening illness.

And now countries with open borders are reporting new waves from the more virulent Delta variant with the even more virulent Lambada variant not far behind.

Life isn't risk free, but just as we don't 'get on with life & live with' people getting behind the wheel of their car & driving after drinking a couple of bottles of wine just because we it happens or because we can't interfere with their rights & freedoms, we don't need this urge to be reckless about opening up the border while 63% of our eligible population are yet to be vaccinated & a health system which would be completely overwhelmed.

The virus has changed, once these new variants like Delta get into a country, they are proving incredibly hard to get out.

Further, the majority of people in NZ are getting on with life & enjoying far more freedom than most countries.

jonu
14-08-2021, 12:38 PM
This often repeated euphemism of, 'getting on with life and living with Covid' is such a fantasy & contradiction.

Not much respect shown to the 4.3 million people who have died ( actual number much higher as countries like China under report ) in not much over 12 months, with over 200 million cases with a percentage suffering severe life threatening illness.

And now countries with open borders are reporting new waves from the more virulent Delta variant with the even more virulent Lambada variant not far behind.

Life isn't risk free, but just as we don't 'get on with life & live with' people getting behind the wheel of their car & driving after drinking a couple of bottles of wine just because we it happens or because we can't interfere with their rights & freedoms, we don't need this urge to be reckless about opening up the border while 63% of our eligible population are yet to be vaccinated & a health system which would be completely overwhelmed.

The virus has changed, once these new variants like Delta get into a country, they are proving incredibly hard to get out.

Further, the majority of people in NZ are getting on with life & enjoying far more freedom than most countries.

You call it a fantasy and a contradiction and then go on a lengthy spiel demonstrating neither. I also don't know how I showed any disrepect to those who have died.

All over the world countries are removing restrictions and have made the decision to live with Covid at some level.

BTW I didn't show any disrespect to the 9 million people who die from hunger each and every year either. Most of those deaths entirely preventable with a lot less effort and disruption than has been applied to the pandemic. Sometimes a sense of perspective is a healthy thing.

fungus pudding
14-08-2021, 12:44 PM
This often repeated euphemism of, 'getting on with life and living with Covid' is such a fantasy & contradiction.


Where is the euphemism in that?

Blue Skies
14-08-2021, 01:36 PM
Where is the euphemism in that?


Makes Covid sound so mild so harmless, inoffensive like a minor inconvenience for everyone instead of the blunt reality for many, who experienced a lonely suffering death often isolated from family & friends, struggling to breath with inflamed lungs & multi organ failure.

That's been the reality for 4.3 million people so far who have died plus millions more who have been in ICU or experienced severe illness but been able to recover at home.

I don't know if you've ever experienced the terror of seeing a loved one in an isolation unit fighting for their life, while everyone is gowned up for protection with gloves & safety glasses & the only physical contact is through latex gloves, but it's pretty sobering.

fungus pudding
14-08-2021, 01:48 PM
Makes Covid sound so mild so harmless, inoffensive like a minor inconvenience for everyone instead of the blunt reality for many, who experienced a lonely suffering death often isolated from family & friends, struggling to breath with inflamed lungs & multi organ failure.

That's been the reality for 4.3 million people so far who have died plus millions more who have been in ICU or experienced severe illness but been able to recover at home.

I don't know if you've ever experienced the terror of seeing a loved one in an isolation unit fighting for their life, while everyone is gowned up for protection with gloves & safety glasses & the only physical contact is through latex gloves, but it's pretty sobering.

What utter nohnsense. Covid is not a euphemism; nor is anything in the phrase 'getting on with life'.

Blue Skies
14-08-2021, 02:06 PM
What utter nohnsense. Covid is not a euphemism; nor is anything in the phrase 'getting on with life'.


Never said 'Covid' was a euphemism....?

Using the phrase 'getting on with life & living with Covid' was a euphemistically way of describing the effects of the pandemic used to downplay the blunt reality for the many who have died or suffered from the virus.

Anyway whatever grammatical term you feel comfortable with is fine with me, didn't mean to offend your highly tuned sense of English grammar.

fungus pudding
14-08-2021, 02:12 PM
Vaccinated people can also be infected and contagious. Being unvaccinated doesn't make you infected and contagious. There is the potential, hence my analogy to violence.



There is nothing analgous about it. Violence is a matter of self-control, and can be opposed. It's a crime which police can prosecute for. A covid spreader can't control what they spread, if they even know they are infected at the time, and the potential victims do not have the self defence option. (apart from the limited mask protection available) And more often than not, they will have no idea who the spreader-culprit is.

jonu
14-08-2021, 03:43 PM
There is nothing analgous about it. Violence is a matter of self-control, and can be opposed. It's a crime which police can prosecute for. A covid spreader can't control what they spread, if they even know they are infected at the time, and the potential victims do not have the self defence option. (apart from the limited mask protection available) And more often than not, they will have no idea who the spreader-culprit is.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the analogy.
As already covered extensively here, the vaccinated can also be spreaders. So returning to my original issue with dobby41....who is it we are so keen to persecute here? And to what extent are people to be vilified?

Bjauck
14-08-2021, 04:13 PM
Which is interesting.
Should those who refuse to be vaccinated be given hospital treatment if they get covid?
Save the limited hospital beds for those who do the right thing.
You make your choice so bear the consequences (make your bed and lie in it). Remaining vaccinated is still within a person's rights in NZ. A more pertinent question would be should the state be obliged to treat those who injure themselves during the commission of a crime? Should they always be at the end of the queue in accident and emergency departments? The trouble with that is that you would need to judicially prove any crime or wrongdoing before withholding treatment. Otherwise you risk kangaroo court injustice.

Blue Skies
14-08-2021, 05:19 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on the analogy.
As already covered extensively here, the vaccinated can also be spreaders. So returning to my original issue with dobby41....who is it we are so keen to persecute here? And to what extent are people to be vilified?


This is an interesting question.
Many countries have invoked States of Emergency or a step down, Emergency Powers at various points during the Covid pandemic. For instance the UK & Japan has recently during the Olympics.

Like many other countries NZ's constitutional arrangements allows the govt to temporarily suspend freedom of movement, size of gatherings, detain people, shut down businesses etc in an emergency such as a devastating earthquake, war or a pandemic.
Article 15 of the European Convention on Human Rights allows governments to 'declare a State of Emergency in times of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation'.
So what is acceptable if a small group of people endanger the lives of others by spreading false information in such a situation?

The Labour govt has shown no inclination towards using the powers it has to harshly force compliance, but personally I have no problem with anti-vaxers spreading dangerously false information being vilified.
Look at the tragic recent measles outbreak & deaths of all those children due to the anti-vaxers.

To my mind it is analogous to a person going berserk threatening to sink the ship and drown everyone along with them.

ynot
14-08-2021, 05:50 PM
This is an interesting question.
Many countries have invoked States of Emergency or a step down, Emergency Powers at various points during the Covid pandemic. For instance the UK & Japan has recently during the Olympics.

Like many other countries NZ's constitutional arrangements allows the govt to temporarily suspend freedom of movement, size of gatherings, detain people, shut down businesses etc in an emergency such as a devastating earthquake, war or a pandemic.
Article 15 of the European Convention on Human Rights allows governments to 'declare a State of Emergency in times of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation'.
So what is acceptable if a small group of people endanger the lives of others by spreading false information in such a situation?

The Labour govt has shown no inclination towards using the powers it has to harshly force compliance, but personally I have no problem with anti-vaxers spreading dangerously false information being vilified.
Look at the tragic recent measles outbreak & deaths of all those children due to the anti-vaxers.

To my mind it is analogous to a person going berserk threatening to sink the ship and drown everyone along with them.
.
How would you define false information ?

Blue Skies
14-08-2021, 07:25 PM
.
How would you define false information ?


Well i'll give you some real life examples of false information designed to create distrust in the vaccine esp in the less educated

The vaccine contains live virus.
Jesus will protect you if you pray hard enough.
Faith will protect you.
The vaccine contains traces of pork or cow ( designed to affect Muslims & Hindus)
The vaccine will alter your DNA.
Only coloured people die from Covid.
The vaccine contains animal products or material from aborted foetuses.
The vaccine will make you impotent, cause infertility, cause miscarriage.
A Russian campaign on social media pushing misinformation on Covid vaccines.

and many more.

westerly
14-08-2021, 07:39 PM
What utter nohnsense. Covid is not a euphemism; nor is anything in the phrase 'getting on with life'.

What is a nohnsense ?

westerly

fungus pudding
14-08-2021, 07:54 PM
What is a nohnsense ?

westerly

It is a series of letters produced when attempting to type the word 'nonsense' on a dopey little cell phone when one has man sized body appendages, including fingers.

ynot
14-08-2021, 10:04 PM
Well i'll give you some real life examples of false information designed to create distrust in the vaccine esp in the less educated

The vaccine contains live virus.
Jesus will protect you if you pray hard enough.
Faith will protect you.
The vaccine contains traces of pork or cow ( designed to affect Muslims & Hindus)
The vaccine will alter your DNA.
Only coloured people die from Covid.
The vaccine contains animal products or material from aborted foetuses.
The vaccine will make you impotent, cause infertility, cause miscarriage.
A Russian campaign on social media pushing misinformation on Covid vaccines.

and many more.

My question was how do you define false information, I was not asking for obvious examples of false information.
My point being not all information is false.

Blue Skies
15-08-2021, 10:17 AM
My question was how do you define false information, I was not asking for obvious examples of false information.
My point being not all information is false.


Information which is presented as fact, but is factually incorrect or untrue often in an attempt to deceive, control or manipulate.
(Not the same as hyper-partisan opinion).

Balance
15-08-2021, 11:29 AM
Watching Newshub Nation - immigration is a mess and Kris Faafio refuses to be interviewed on any forum. Hardly surprising as we all know he came across as a prize Buffoon re the Hate speech legislation.

But is this what a government is about? Skirting away from hard questions on tough issues?

Remember the promise of the most transparent & accountable government ever by Cindy?

jonu
15-08-2021, 11:52 AM
Watching Newshub Nation - immigration is a mess and Kris Faafio refuses to be interviewed on any forum. Hardly surprising as we all know he came across as a prize Buffoon re the Hate speech legislation.

But is this what a government is about? Skirting away from hard questions on tough issues?

Remember the promise of the most transparent & accountable government ever by Cindy?

I have a former colleague who has been working here for at least 4 years in an industry that can not get enough trained staff. His employer backed his application for Residency. He got most of the way through the process pre-Covid and was then placed on hold. Now he has been told to reapply. He is hardworking, skilled and with a young family to support.

Why on earth couldn't they just continue with his application instead of adding to their horrendous backlog? Madness and incompetence combined.

777
15-08-2021, 12:03 PM
I have a former colleague who has been working here for at least 4 years in an industry that can not get enough trained staff. His employer backed his application for Residency. He got most of the way through the process pre-Covid and was then placed on hold. Now he has been told to reapply. He is hardworking, skilled and with a young family to support.

Why on earth couldn't they just continue with his application instead of adding to their horrendous backlog? Madness and incompetence combined.

The incompetence starts from the top.

BlackPeter
15-08-2021, 12:15 PM
Watching Newshub Nation - immigration is a mess and Kris Faafio refuses to be interviewed on any forum. Hardly surprising as we all know he came across as a prize Buffoon re the Hate speech legislation.

But is this what a government is about? Skirting away from hard questions on tough issues?

Remember the promise of the most transparent & accountable government ever by Cindy?

It is Kris Faafoi. Important to get the spelling of people like him right, we don't want to forget them, do we? Outstanding material for the "never again" list.

However - apart from the spelling of his name do I have to agree with your post. I can't remember any recent NZ politician coming across as less competent and still more ducking away from basically any questions.

On the other hand - he is highly capable of demonstrating a dumb grin when he is talking about the sacrifices NZ visa holders (shafted by his government) had to take. Families torn apart, mothers or fathers separated from their kids, families who had (relying on their NZ visa) given up their job and home abroad) stopped in their tracks, livelihoods destroyed.

Too bad these people relied on a NZ visa when they started moving. They should have known that Kris word is worth nothing - and that Kris does not care. Ahh well, we all have to make sacrifices, don't we, Kris? Just wondering what you sacrificed?

He is certainly good in sitting out problems ... just don't move and keep grinning ...

Just wondering why Labour promoted such a poor performer that high up the ranks - do they really have no better person to look after key portfolios like immigration? Even if they had to fill the Tokelauan quota - I am sure there are much more competent people around. I am sure there are many Tokelauan people who would be competent as well as warm hearted. Kris Faafoi in itself is the ultimate insult to the people who New Zealand shafted during the pandemic and whose livelihoods his actions and/or inactions destroyed. Get rid of him Labour and fix the wrongs he has done, or we will get rid of you.

dobby41
15-08-2021, 03:47 PM
After vaccinations have penetrated those who want it, Anti-vaxers would "tend" to harm much more other anti-vaxers - just as other "considerate" smokers "tend" to harm much more other "considerate" smokers in their huddles outside buildings etc.

Edit: Covid variant progression is a big concern of course. If refusing a vaccination is within a person's legal rights there is no way NZ could refuse the full range of medical services available to a NZ resident.

Anti-vaxers will also hard others - as they fill the hospitals others can't get treated for cancer and other issues.
It will affect many of the vaccinated population.

Bjauck
15-08-2021, 04:13 PM
Anti-vaxers will also hard others - as they fill the hospitals others can't get treated for cancer and other issues.
It will affect many of the vaccinated population. I agree and who knows what will be the future twists and turns of the epidemic.

Whereas with Smoking and alcoholism, we have been able more gradually to build up our infrastructure and costing to try to cope with the toll on those directly and indirectly affected.

dobby41
15-08-2021, 04:28 PM
Whereas with Smoking and alcoholism, we have been able more gradually to build up our infrastructure and costing to try to cope with the toll on those directly and indirectly affected.

I doubt you get a sudden, rapid spread of smoking and alcohol hospital admissions (except Friday and Sat night alcohol 'victims' filling A&E).

Bjauck
15-08-2021, 05:19 PM
I doubt you get a sudden, rapid spread of smoking and alcohol hospital admissions (except Friday and Sat night alcohol 'victims' filling A&E).
I did not say that we do. “Gradually” does not mean suddenly, well at least not in my dictionaries ;)

It has taken us decades to build up the infrastructure and cost recovery to cope with the effects of alcohol and smoking. That is a “luxury” we do not have with with an epidemic.

They all have chronic collateral effects but with an epidemic there are acute consequences too.

westerly
15-08-2021, 07:32 PM
[QUOTE=BlackPeter;899907]Brutalisation of parts of the NZ society is clearly a problem - it feels like there are these days more braindead idiots running around than ever - and too many of them quite happy to injure or even kill others as well as themselves - don't forget the "poor" lads who killed themselves last weekend in Timaru, demonstrating the fastest method to turn a dangerous boy racer into an innocent angel.

Having said that - the reasons are complex and I don't think that politicizing the subject is any helpful. I don't think either that any single government could do a lot about that but making things worse with further polarization of the society by playing the tough guy.

Locking up still more people clearly won't help - hey we have in NZ already one of the highest incarceration rates in the western world (from memory competing only with the US for place one - another quite brutalised society torn apart by hate).

Your memory is suspect. https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All

westerly

Blue Skies
15-08-2021, 08:02 PM
National Covid spokesperson Chris Bishop now giving the govt hell over not ordering Booster vaccines.

Informative piece on Booster jabs, esp for those who have had transplants or immunosuppressed.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/14/1027597108/6-things-to-know-if-youre-immunocompromised-and-considering-a-3rd-shot

iceman
16-08-2021, 07:03 AM
Watching Newshub Nation - immigration is a mess and Kris Faafio refuses to be interviewed on any forum. Hardly surprising as we all know he came across as a prize Buffoon re the Hate speech legislation.

But is this what a government is about? Skirting away from hard questions on tough issues?

Remember the promise of the most transparent & accountable government ever by Cindy?

It was an informative piece on Newshub Nation and gutless of the Government to be a no show on an issue that is causing a lot of pain to thousand of families, through inaction and incompetence. It simply isn't necessary to create all this pain and unfairness.
Erica Stanford came across as being well informed on the issues and very passionate. I found that also in my communications with her about the failed MIQ system, much more than any of the other MPs I got a response from on the MIQ issues. Sadly the 2 Labour MPs I wrote to ignored the issues raised and trotted out a standard Government dribble that didn't even touch on the issues. Sadly the Government seems to have their heads firmly stuck in the sand on immigration issues and MIQ failures.

50% staff turnover in each of the last 3 years says it all really.

Bjauck
16-08-2021, 07:22 AM
It was an informative piece on Newshub Nation and gutless of the Government to be a no show on an issue that is causing a lot of pain to thousand of families, through inaction and incompetence. It simply isn't necessary to create all this pain and unfairness... Process for getting a MIQ slot is a shambles. Tokyo Covid Games athletes and officials had no problems getting through though!

winner69
16-08-2021, 07:25 AM
I take it Guns n Roses gigs in a few months time wont happen now

Another MIQ casualty

Lost economic benefits ….not as much as LOTR loss though

dobby41
16-08-2021, 08:10 AM
I did not say that we do. “Gradually” does not mean suddenly, well at least not in my dictionaries ;)

It has taken us decades to build up the infrastructure and cost recovery to cope with the effects of alcohol and smoking. That is a “luxury” we do not have with with an epidemic.

They all have chronic collateral effects but with an epidemic there are acute consequences too.

I am agreeing with you can adding to the argument that covid is rapid and smoking isn't (on the impact to the health system).

Balance
16-08-2021, 09:47 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126081429/jacinda-ardern-has-not-ruled-out-sending-defence-force-to-afghanistan-to-get-new-zealanders-out

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says she has not ruled out sending the NZ Defence Force to Afghanistan to help New Zealanders leave the country."

Have to laugh .

And send our Air Force and one frigate as well?

The woman is delusional!

Maybe she could don the hijab to show solidarity and urge the Talibans to be kind - that may work.

dobby41
16-08-2021, 10:21 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126081429/jacinda-ardern-has-not-ruled-out-sending-defence-force-to-afghanistan-to-get-new-zealanders-out

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says she has not ruled out sending the NZ Defence Force to Afghanistan to help New Zealanders leave the country."

Have to laugh .

And send our Air Force and one frigate as well?

The woman is delusional!

Maybe she could don the hijab to show solidarity and urge the Talibans to be kind - that may work.

Why would she send a frigate to a land locked country?

Blue Skies
16-08-2021, 10:29 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126081429/jacinda-ardern-has-not-ruled-out-sending-defence-force-to-afghanistan-to-get-new-zealanders-out

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says she has not ruled out sending the NZ Defence Force to Afghanistan to help New Zealanders leave the country."

Have to laugh .

And send our Air Force and one frigate as well?

The woman is delusional!

Maybe she could don the hijab to show solidarity and urge the Talibans to be kind - that may work.




To be fair, this just about sending a plane to evacuate NZ'ers and Afghan interpreters from Kabul.
All commercial flights have now ceased & military or defence force aircraft only option for people getting out now.
International community co-ordinating evacuations.
Like the fall of Saigon!

BlackPeter
16-08-2021, 10:54 AM
[QUOTE=BlackPeter;899907]Brutalisation of parts of the NZ society is clearly a problem - it feels like there are these days more braindead idiots running around than ever - and too many of them quite happy to injure or even kill others as well as themselves - don't forget the "poor" lads who killed themselves last weekend in Timaru, demonstrating the fastest method to turn a dangerous boy racer into an innocent angel.

Having said that - the reasons are complex and I don't think that politicizing the subject is any helpful. I don't think either that any single government could do a lot about that but making things worse with further polarization of the society by playing the tough guy.

Locking up still more people clearly won't help - hey we have in NZ already one of the highest incarceration rates in the western world (from memory competing only with the US for place one - another quite brutalised society torn apart by hate).

Your memory is suspect. https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All

westerly

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "incarceration rate", which would be prisoners per head of population. Your stats shows prisoners in absolute numbers ... not a surprise that countries with much higher populations than NZ have a higher number of prisoners.

I give you however that the NZ incarceration rate (with 197 prisoners per 100,000 in 2015, 168 prisoners per 100,000 now is much smaller than the US incarceration rate (639 per 100,000). However - I can't see a lot of Western countries sitting below the leading US in the stats I just found:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/

I probably remembered a statistic like the one published by NZ corrections:

12841

https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/research/journal/volume_6_issue_1_july_2018/where_new_zealand_stands_internationally_a_compari son_of_offence_profiles_and_recidivism_rates

12842

So - yes, we are not as bad as the US, but in the context of other free western countries we have absolutely no reason to be proud of our incarceration rates - unless you belong into the group of people who thinks that locking up everybody and throw the key away is a good thing ...

But maybe you don't understand "western world" either. The overwhelming number of countries leading your stats are run by power hungry despots, and not being part of the western world.

Ask Dr. Google:

What is the meaning of Western world?
In the contemporary cultural meaning, the phrase "Western world" includes Europe, as well as many countries of European colonial origin with substantial European ancestral populations in the Americas and Oceania.

Bjauck
16-08-2021, 11:26 AM
Why would she send a frigate to a land locked country? I saw some land yachts racing at Ardmore Aerodrome last Summer. I would like to see some Anzac class frigates there this Summer!

Many a world power has met a defeat in Afghanistan. Maybe Americans will have forgotten about this latest defeat by the time of the mid-term elections.

Balance
16-08-2021, 02:41 PM
Why would she send a frigate to a land locked country?

Just as useless as she saying she will send in military personnel - too late.

Serious question - will she don the hijab to show solidarity with the women who are now going to be subject to Taliban rule?

dobby41
16-08-2021, 03:03 PM
Just as useless as she saying she will send in military personnel - too late.

Serious question - will she don the hijab to show solidarity with the women who are now going to be subject to Taliban rule?

You do say some really dumb things!
Start the week unbalanced.
No one is ever quite sure what you want except to moan loudly.

Bjauck
16-08-2021, 03:54 PM
Just as useless as she saying she will send in military personnel - too late.

Serious question - will she don the hijab to show solidarity with the women who are now going to be subject to Taliban rule? I heard Lyse Doucet reporting from Afghanistan last night on BBC World Service. Her plane had been trying to land at Kabul. The apprehension in her voice was obvious. The Taliban “claimed” they would not exact retribution on government personnel or women for not wearing the burqa.

Balance
16-08-2021, 04:49 PM
I heard Lyse Doucet reporting from Afghanistan last night on BBC World Service. Her plane had been trying to land at Kabul. The apprehension in her voice was obvious. The Taliban “claimed” they would not exact retribution on government personnel or women for not wearing the burqa.

The Taliban will be happy to let Westerners leave - they will not want to risk Western intervention and it's no big deal to allow Westerners to leave. That's what the North Vietnamese did as well when they took over Saigon.

But the Taliban have stated that Afghans will not be allowed to leave so the Afghans who had been helping the West are going to be left behind to their fate.

And we know what the Taliban are already doing to those who they view as collaborators in the areas they captured before Kabul.

We also know that the North Vietnamese systematically rounded up millions of South Vietnamese and sent them to re-education camps from which many never emerged.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126085598/nz-defence-force-plane-to-go-on-deployment-with-40-personnel-for-afghanistan-evacuations

Cindy imploring the Taliban to allow 'people' to leave Afghanistan.

For the sake of the Afghan people who will be considered to be in league with the Western occupying forces, let's hope the Taliban are forgiving and agree with her plea.

If not, she may have to don the hijab as the next step to plead for kindness?

dobby41
16-08-2021, 05:42 PM
If not, she may have to don the hijab as the next step to plead for kindness?

You always go too far and resort to nonsense.
Herc is on the way (or will be shortly).
No need for a frigate it seems.

ynot
16-08-2021, 05:59 PM
You always go too far and resort to nonsense.
Herc is on the way (or will be shortly).
No need for a frigate it seems.
In this case he's only saying what plenty of Kiwis think. We are not all members of the Jacinda fan club.

Balance
16-08-2021, 08:57 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kainga-ora-hiring-spree-1000-extra-staff-sees-government-housing-agency-nearly-double/Y5KLCYKTZ32DBDFINEJF4QYTC4/

Housing NZ added on more than 1,000 staff since Labour took office in 2017.

Instead of fixing the housing crisis, the additional staff have now made the crisis into a housing disaster.

Balance
16-08-2021, 09:04 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/126077196/its-a-broken-system-a-single-fathers-neverending-ordeal-with-an-emergency-housing-model-that-gives-him-no-security

Warm home regulations resulting in less accommodation available for emergency housing - yet another mess created by Cindy & her useless Housing minister & staff.

Balance
16-08-2021, 09:25 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018808454/a-serious-problem-vaccination-rates-not-tracked-at-east-auckland-border-facility

Government cannot provide infor on how many border staff are vaccinated at facility.

How long has the government been telling NZers that everything is fine at the border?

artemis
17-08-2021, 08:21 AM
.....Warm home regulations resulting in less accommodation available for emergency housing - yet another mess created by Cindy & her useless Housing minister & staff.

Healthy Rental Standards are one reason that properties are no longer available to the rental market. For sure. It costs much the same to upgrade a rural or small town rental as a similar metropolitan rental. But the rental income is almost certainly very very different. Couple of farm cottages in my family no longer rented out as uneconomical to upgrade. Some might say - good, cold damp and mouldy. But no, none of those. Cheap rent though.

Recent changes to rules around tenure are at least as important, probably more. They just don't get the same airtime. Landlords are now very restricted in how and when they can terminate problem tenancies, so are extremely careful who they rent to.

Then there are the tax changes ....

dobby41
17-08-2021, 08:37 AM
Recent changes to rules around tenure are at least as important, probably more. They just don't get the same airtime. Landlords are now very restricted in how and when they can terminate problem tenancies, so are extremely careful who they rent to.

Then there are the tax changes ....

Though the 90 day, no reason, termination is gone it is easier to get a person out if they don't pay rent (a common reason).
3 times late within 90days and you can terminate - much tighter than before.

artemis
17-08-2021, 08:41 AM
Though the 90 day, no reason, termination is gone it is easier to get a person out if they don't pay rent (a common reason).
3 times late within 90days and you can terminate - much tighter than before.

Termination for late rent is nowhere near as simple or easier as you say.

dobby41
17-08-2021, 08:53 AM
Termination for late rent is nowhere near as simple or easier as you say.

It is and much easier than before.
Some tenants used to play a game of being late and paying up at the last minute.
Now they can't afford to be more than 5 days late 3 times within a 90 day period - much tighter.

artemis
17-08-2021, 09:11 AM
It is and much easier than before.
Some tenants used to play a game of being late and paying up at the last minute.
Now they can't afford to be more than 5 days late 3 times within a 90 day period - much tighter.

And those persistently late tenants could be given 90 days notice. End of. And the new rules require very precise documentation and timing, and an application to the Tenancy Tribunal that may or may not result in termination. How is that much easier?

Meantime, landlords are finding other ways to give notice to undesirable tenants.

fungus pudding
17-08-2021, 09:17 AM
And those persistently late tenants could be given 90 days notice. End of. And the new rules require very precise documentation and timing, and an application to the Tenancy Tribunal that may or may not result in termination. How is that much easier?

Meantime, landlords are finding other ways to give notice to undesirable tenants.

Residential landlords have my deepest sympathy. Far better to get out of the game and work your way into commercial or industrial property. You will live much longer.

Balance
17-08-2021, 09:22 AM
Residential landlords have my deepest sympathy. Far better to get out of the game and work your way into commercial or industrial property. You will live much longer.

Yup - real estate agents in my area tell me their investor clients are switching to commercial property.

One 3 level office property along Manukau Rd (owned by a well known 1980s 'corp' individual) which has been on the market for a while was snapped up within days of the tax rule change.

JBmurc
17-08-2021, 11:14 AM
Residential landlords have my deepest sympathy. Far better to get out of the game and work your way into commercial or industrial property. You will live much longer.

Yes I'm gutted I didn't move quicker on a couple commercial properties down south ... soon as Jacinda and team stabbed Res investors in the back ...both sold within weeks after being on the market for some time.... then finding another decent one ... I offered 20% above asking as the interest was so high ended up being a dutch auction and sold for another 10% higher ....

Balance
17-08-2021, 01:59 PM
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pressure-mounting-on-minister-to-take-control-of-immigration-issues

Kris Faafoi - as useless as tits on a bull.

When the going gets tough, Faafoi falls over.

Trust Cindy to pick yet another non performer just because he is brown and so would obtain more of the brown votes to keep her in power to screw up NZ even more than she already has.

fungus pudding
17-08-2021, 02:37 PM
Yes I'm gutted I didn't move quicker on a couple commercial properties down south ... soon as Jacinda and team stabbed Res investors in the back ...both sold within weeks after being on the market for some time.... then finding another decent one ... I offered 20% above asking as the interest was so high ended up being a dutch auction and sold for another 10% higher ....

Out of interest - what city or town? Price/Cap rates they sold at?

fungus pudding
17-08-2021, 02:54 PM
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pressure-mounting-on-minister-to-take-control-of-immigration-issues

Kris Faafoi - as useless as tits on a bull.

No he's not.

westerly
17-08-2021, 07:28 PM
[

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "incarceration rate", which would be prisoners per head of population. Your stats shows prisoners in absolute numbers ... not a surprise that countries with much higher populations than NZ have a higher number of prisoners.

I give you however that the NZ incarceration rate (with 197 prisoners per 100,000 in 2015, 168 prisoners per 100,000 now is much smaller than the US incarceration rate (639 per 100,000). However - I can't see a lot of Western countries sitting below the leading US in the stats I just found:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/

I probably remembered a statistic like the one published by NZ corrections:

12841

https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/research/journal/volume_6_issue_1_july_2018/where_new_zealand_stands_internationally_a_compari son_of_offence_profiles_and_recidivism_rates

[Quote Black Peter

So - yes, we are not as bad as the US, but in the context of other free western countries we have absolutely no reason to be proud of our incarceration rates - unless you belong into the group of people who thinks that locking up everybody and throw the key away is a good thing ...

But maybe you don't understand "western world" either. The overwhelming number of countries leading your stats are run by power hungry despots, and not being part of the western world.


You wrote and I quote "from memory competing with the US for place one "
A simple click would have given you the population rate in the link listed which shows NZ at 92 countries below the top listed US.
And yes there are many things I do not understand but I can usually spot misinformation which was the only reason I replied to your post.

Sir Ten
18-08-2021, 07:53 AM
Stupid Cindy can't vaccinate... and here we are.

I wouldn't have minded if she'd told us we'd be bottom of the queue from the outset, but the outright lie and lack of ownership makes this squarely her fault.

BlackPeter
18-08-2021, 09:30 AM
Stupid Cindy can't vaccinate... and here we are.

I wouldn't have minded if she'd told us we'd be bottom of the queue from the outset, but the outright lie and lack of ownership makes this squarely her fault.

From memory we saved something like $40m for ordering the slow track vaccines instead of getting them in early (in that case we would have rolled out the vaccines already).

The cost for this weeks lockdown alone (which would have been absolutely preventable if paying for the early vaccination is something like $1b ... but only if we don't need to extend (which might be doubtful).

Amazing how just one wrong decisions can burn that much money ... but hey, it is just our taxes - that's why Labour needs to keep rising them.

Logen Ninefingers
18-08-2021, 12:45 PM
Usual story: 'no known links to the border - investigations continue'.

Obfuscate & treat the people as mushrooms. How many communications staff (spin doctors) will Cindy hire this week? It's a wonder they can all fit inside the Beehive!!

Logen Ninefingers
18-08-2021, 12:50 PM
From memory we saved something like $40m for ordering the slow track vaccines instead of getting them in early (in that case we would have rolled out the vaccines already).

The cost for this weeks lockdown alone (which would have been absolutely preventable if paying for the early vaccination is something like $1b ... but only if we don't need to extend (which might be doubtful).

Amazing how just one wrong decisions can burn that much money ... but hey, it is just our taxes - that's why Labour needs to keep rising them.


The rationale for the slow (snails pace) roll out was because we don't have a COVID outbreak in NZ and are the envy of the world.

Then we are told a Delta outbreak is inevitable. (Front-running with spin to deflect blame for incompetence).

So mostly unvaccinated & therefore a sitting duck should an outbreak occur.

This government should look after our health interests and stop patting themselves on the back and looking about at other countries. They should have got us to somewhere near the front of the queue as they promised, rather than 86th in the world. Too late now though.

dobby41
18-08-2021, 01:05 PM
Usual story: 'no known links to the border - investigations continue'.

Obfuscate & treat the people as mushrooms. How many communications staff (spin doctors) will Cindy hire this week? It's a wonder they can all fit inside the Beehive!!

Are you saying that they should make something up?
Do you know that the 'truth' is other than what they say and there is a known link to the border?

Balance
18-08-2021, 02:51 PM
Usual story: 'no known links to the border - investigations continue'.

Obfuscate & treat the people as mushrooms. How many communications staff (spin doctors) will Cindy hire this week? It's a wonder they can all fit inside the Beehive!!

The Covid Queen bee keeps producing drones. That's how Cindy likes it.

Balance
18-08-2021, 06:20 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126114521/covid19-labour-party-volunteer-breaks-lockdown-for-poto-williams-leaflet-drop

As usual, another example of Labour’s ‘do as I say, not as I do.’

And the best part is that the useless Police Minister does not want to comment.

Maybe she is taking lessons from Kris ‘useless’ Faafoi of not fronting.

Sir Ten
19-08-2021, 02:15 PM
All of a sudden vaccinations seem plentiful and available to all and sundry (but to be fair, you could disobey the Queen of spin and just go and get it).

Highly unlikely, but if anyone was to die from this outbreak, there's blood on Cindy's hands.

dobby41
19-08-2021, 02:32 PM
All of a sudden vaccinations seem plentiful and available to all and sundry (but to be fair, you could disobey the Queen of spin and just go and get it).

Highly unlikely, but if anyone was to die from this outbreak, there's blood on Cindy's hands.

The vaccination rate was already ramping up as per the plan (as supplies became available).

Balance
19-08-2021, 10:24 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/kate-macnamara-governments-covid-spin-spend-masks-a-failure-to-deliver/DSRLOXE6UALGJR3KG42DBO2FGA/

Paywalled

All about the spin, rather than on the delivery.

Cindy’s government allocates spin money even for the vaccine procurement - to hide the fact that it screwed up big time with the ‘front of the queue’ to ‘back of the queue’ debacle.

And many in the nation of mostly sheep lapped the spin up.

artemis
20-08-2021, 06:17 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/kate-macnamara-governments-covid-spin-spend-masks-a-failure-to-deliver/DSRLOXE6UALGJR3KG42DBO2FGA/

Paywalled
All about the spin, rather than on the delivery.

Cindy’s government allocates spin money even for the vaccine procurement - to hide the fact that it screwed up big time with the ‘front of the queue’ to ‘back of the queue’ debacle.

And many in the nation of mostly sheep lapped the spin up.

MBIE spent $133,600 of its funds for "third party contractors and consultants for work on Covid-19 vaccine procurement" on communications, despite having 64 PR staff of its own. And that was just the beginning.

Balance
20-08-2021, 08:22 AM
MBIE spent $133,600 of its funds for "third party contractors and consultants for work on Covid-19 vaccine procurement" on communications, despite having 64 PR staff of its own. And that was just the beginning.

This government makes a fool out of anyone who choose to believe the spin.

Imagine anyone being prepared to be fooled by their own money (taxes) spent on spin!

Oh I forgot - Cindy has been actively building up her Maori & beneficiary base who pay bugger all taxes anyway.

fungus pudding
20-08-2021, 11:18 AM
RIP Sir Michael.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300387274/former-deputy-prime-minister-and-kiwisaver-architect-sir-michael-cullen-dies

BlackPeter
20-08-2021, 11:38 AM
RIP Sir Michael.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300387274/former-deputy-prime-minister-and-kiwisaver-architect-sir-michael-cullen-dies

Sad it is so often the better ones who leave early ...

While I not always agreed with his political views - I experienced him as an honest and decent man, and good on him to set up Kiwi saver. Overall - he clearly was one of the better brains in the Labour party. They would need more of his sort, not less.

Condolences to his family - I hope they get all the support they need.

iceman
20-08-2021, 11:42 AM
I second what BlackPeter said above. Condolences to his family and friends.

Logen Ninefingers
20-08-2021, 03:24 PM
Listen to Cindy and BE KIND ffs!!

#EternalLockdowns

Balance
21-08-2021, 08:54 PM
Listen to Cindy and BE KIND ffs!!

#EternalLockdowns

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/08/opinion-stop-putting-a-spin-on-new-zealand-s-vaccination-numbers-we-are-woefully-behind.html

She can’t stop spinning.

Glad I am not one of those who swallow her BS.

‘A vulnerable person who was told and expected to be vaccinated in April is now told to expect his vaccination in October.’ Good news according to the Spin Mistress Cindy as the vaccination program is on track!!!

dobby41
22-08-2021, 03:09 PM
‘A vulnerable person who was told and expected to be vaccinated in April is now told to expect his vaccination in October.’ Good news according to the Spin Mistress Cindy as the vaccination program is on track!!!

Took me 48hrs from deciding to book, booking and having the jab.
What's wrong with these people?

BlackPeter
22-08-2021, 03:53 PM
Took me 48hrs from deciding to book, booking and having the jab.
What's wrong with these people?

It depends where you live. I hear it is very easy to book a timeslot in South Auckland - actually, no need for booking - just rock along, bro ...

Canterbury however was long time neglected by the current government, they probably are looking after their clientele first.

My wife is (due to a health condition) in group 3. She booked (I think early July) the earliest timeslot offered to her and (hopefully) will get it later this week.

I am in group four and booked my timeslot roughly 4 weeks after her (whenever the government opened up the vaccination schedule for everybody) and got a timeslot a couple of days before her.

Organisation like a dogs breakfast - as I said. This government would not be able to organise a children's birthday party ...

Nothing wrong with "these" people - we just selected a bunch of people for government who are sadly not able to do an even basic administration job. OK - maybe this is wrong with us.

iceman
22-08-2021, 04:48 PM
Took me 48hrs from deciding to book, booking and having the jab.
What's wrong with these people?

Similar here in Nelson. It was easy to book and lots of slots available. Very good & efficient experience for our family.

dobby41
22-08-2021, 05:19 PM
It depends where you live. I hear it is very easy to book a timeslot in South Auckland - actually, no need for booking - just rock along, bro ...

Canterbury however was long time neglected by the current government, they probably are looking after their clientele first.

My wife is (due to a health condition) in group 3. She booked (I think early July) the earliest timeslot offered to her and (hopefully) will get it later this week.

On the Friday when I booked I was offered Monday afternoon at a location that had difficult parking.
Saturday morning I went online and rebooked for Sunday afternoon at a more convenient location.
I agree that it does depend on where you are but all we hear is the bad stories without balance.
Have you tried looking for a better time?

You suggest that the Govt held up the bookings in Christchurch when it is the DHBs doing the work - unfortunately.
Some DHBs need a bigger rocket up them than others. I was pleasantly surprised with the Waikato DHB considering their track record on other things.
The sooner the DHBs are sorted the better we will all be.

fungus pudding
22-08-2021, 05:26 PM
Similar here in Nelson. It was easy to book and lots of slots available. Very good & efficient experience for our family.
Things are so quiet in Dunedin they send out a free Uber. :-)

BlackPeter
23-08-2021, 08:29 AM
On the Friday when I booked I was offered Monday afternoon at a location that had difficult parking.
Saturday morning I went online and rebooked for Sunday afternoon at a more convenient location.
I agree that it does depend on where you are but all we hear is the bad stories without balance.
Have you tried looking for a better time?

You suggest that the Govt held up the bookings in Christchurch when it is the DHBs doing the work - unfortunately.
Some DHBs need a bigger rocket up them than others. I was pleasantly surprised with the Waikato DHB considering their track record on other things.
The sooner the DHBs are sorted the better we will all be.

Nice to hear it works for some people, but I don't think you understand or listen (maybe the same problem our government has ...) - our problem was not to get the most convenient timeslot and than change it three times, our problem was to get any timeslot at all - and this for a person with an increased health risk.

But hey - after months of waiting my wife (risk group 3) will hopefully get her first jab this week. Looks like with this government you need to live in the right part of the country to get good health service, just wondering why we don't get a discount on our taxes given we seem to get third class health service compared to others.

Its here not like in other parts of the country where you just can rock along ... I had my first jab yesterday and they made very sure that you have an appointment and don't arrive too early.

Didn't Labour (while still in opposition) complain about different healthcare standards in NZ depending on where you live? Well, they had four years to fix this problem and based on our experience they made it worse. Canterbury used to be ok-ish, but not any more. Thanks, Labour!

But I hear you - they screwed up so many other problems they wanted to fix, why should this one be different?

Bjauck
23-08-2021, 08:33 AM
It depends where you live. I hear it is very easy to book a timeslot in South Auckland - actually, no need for booking - just rock along, bro ...

Canterbury however was long time neglected by the current government, they probably are looking after their clientele first.

My wife is (due to a health condition) in group 3. She booked (I think early July) the earliest timeslot offered to her and (hopefully) will get it later this week.

I am in group four and booked my timeslot roughly 4 weeks after her (whenever the government opened up the vaccination schedule for everybody) and got a timeslot a couple of days before her.

Organisation like a dogs breakfast - as I said. This government would not be able to organise a children's birthday party ...

Nothing wrong with "these" people - we just selected a bunch of people for government who are sadly not able to do an even basic administration job. OK - maybe this is wrong with us. The vaccine rollout has been haphazard in many respects. I have heard of one 60's person in good health who visited their GP for a routine annual check-up and was vaccinated on site after their doctor's appointment.

Another person tried to make an appointment online at their nearest vaccination venue but no slots were available so rang to speak to a human and got an appointment slot.

Balance
23-08-2021, 10:15 AM
On the Friday when I booked I was offered Monday afternoon at a location that had difficult parking.
Saturday morning I went online and rebooked for Sunday afternoon at a more convenient location.
I agree that it does depend on where you are but all we hear is the bad stories without balance.
Have you tried looking for a better time?

You suggest that the Govt held up the bookings in Christchurch when it is the DHBs doing the work - unfortunately.
Some DHBs need a bigger rocket up them than others. I was pleasantly surprised with the Waikato DHB considering their track record on other things.
The sooner the DHBs are sorted the better we will all be.

This government is very very quick to take credit for any success, small or big with the pandemic.

Only proper that Cindy takes responsibility for any failures and lack of co-ordination and problems with the vaccine rollout.

"From first in the queue to last in the queue." That's what this government promised (as usual) but delivered.

Logen Ninefingers
23-08-2021, 04:14 PM
Zero cases on the Coromandel Peninsular.....do they have better immunity against 'highly infectious' viruses up there?
A big Cindy propaganda speil at the moment as to why we all - from Cape Reinga to the Bluff and beyond - need to stay in draconian Level 4.
She couldn't give a toss how many businesses go under, just a great way to exercise control.
They must be getting tired off this c-rap down in the South Island.

Why is now the right time to get vaccinated(?) The right time to get vaccinated would have been months ago, before there was an outbreak, but this government went 'soft and late'.

Joshuatree
23-08-2021, 04:40 PM
Weren't enough vaccine months ago, keep up.

iceman
23-08-2021, 04:55 PM
Weren't enough vaccine months ago, keep up.

Don’t you mean “weren’t enough vaccines months ago because they didn’t keep up” ?

Joshuatree
23-08-2021, 04:57 PM
Nope , used up the supply as fast as ,but it was limited supply earlier.

Balance
23-08-2021, 05:15 PM
Nope , used up the supply as fast as ,but it was limited supply earlier.

Limited supply, why?

Oh - because NZ went from front of the queue for vaccine to back of the queue, thanks to the all spin and no delivery Cindy.

Logen Ninefingers
23-08-2021, 05:23 PM
Limited supply, why?

Oh - because NZ went from front of the queue for vaccine to back of the queue, thanks to the all spin and no delivery Cindy.

Wouldn't pay the premium so that NZers were kept safe. The duty was to put us at the front of the queue, instead they rested on their laurels and left us at the mercy of the next variant.

$40 million to get us to the front of the queue...nope, they didn't do it - they'd rather have long lockdowns that cost us billions. They'd rather put Kiwi lives at risk.

What a disgrace. And you won't hear a word of complaint about it from the hypocritical and deeply cynical Left. These are the same people who raved about our national debt under the Key government, and seemed to have completely forgotten about it from the day that Labour came to power in 2017. Not another word was heard. Many of them are trade union operatives or Leftist activists who are out there running interference for Labour and sweeping every item of non-delivery or incompetence under the carpet.

Zaphod
23-08-2021, 05:34 PM
Wouldn't pay the premium so that NZers were kept safe. The duty was to put us at the front of the queue, instead they rested on their laurels and left us at the mercy of the next variant.


Apparently NZ wasn't offered the option to pay the premium, however I'm sure we could have asked? I think our relatively late change to be all-in on Pfizer rather than the alternatives, has also played a large part in the delay. IMO it would have been better to obtain enough vaccines consisting of the major varities to cover our entire population, and vaccinate extremely quickly. That was my position as an unqualified citizen, and thus far I am still standing by it.

Zaphod
23-08-2021, 05:36 PM
Nice to hear it works for some people, but I don't think you understand or listen (maybe the same problem our government has ...) - our problem was not to get the most convenient timeslot and than change it three times, our problem was to get any timeslot at all - and this for a person with an increased health risk.

But hey - after months of waiting my wife (risk group 3) will hopefully get her first jab this week. Looks like with this government you need to live in the right part of the country to get good health service, just wondering why we don't get a discount on our taxes given we seem to get third class health service compared to others.

Its here not like in other parts of the country where you just can rock along ... I had my first jab yesterday and they made very sure that you have an appointment and don't arrive too early.


One region we have business relations within apparently has a 2 month wait for the first jab of the group 4 vaccinations.

BlackPeter
23-08-2021, 05:43 PM
Nope , used up the supply as fast as ,but it was limited supply earlier.

Come on - we all know why there was limited supply. They didn't order more! Saved $40m which are now costing us a lazy billion per week of lockup. Financial geniuses!

Just have a look at countries like Israel or e.g. Singapore. It was not that hard to vaccinate population wide and early. A little bit of organisational talent would have gone a long way.

Unfortunately are the talents of our government more in the disciplines of finger pointing and blaming others. They are as well experts in finding weak excuses.

On the other hand - when ever did we see them accepting responsibility for any of the misses they had so far (and there is no shortage of them). Any admission of responsibility for any of their cockups ever? I guess - sure, they are big in the apology business, but when did they ever apologize for one of their broken promises and wasted opportunities?

Help me here ... I just can't think about any example ...

Joshuatree
23-08-2021, 06:36 PM
A very good programme Q & A with Jack Tame TV1 sunday. He asked Chris Hipkins specifically if they could have got more vaccine earlier by paying more or any other way. Categorically, No. Good enough for me,Chris Hipkins has been an outstanding, with integrity, servant to us throughout covid imo. Checkout the interview.

Balance
23-08-2021, 07:21 PM
A very good programme Q & A with Jack Tame TV1 sunday. He asked Chris Hipkins specifically if they could have got more vaccine earlier by paying more or any other way. Categorically, No. Good enough for me,Chris Hipkins has been an outstanding, with integrity, servant to us throughout covid imo. Checkout the interview.

Of course good enough for you - obviously enjoying the half truths and spin to be swallowed whole.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/new-zealand-front-queue-chris-hipkins-says-nation-well-placed-covid-19-vaccine-roll

Nov 2020 - ‘NZ front of the queue’ Chris Hipkins

Balance
23-08-2021, 07:47 PM
Of course good enough for you - obviously enjoying the half truths and spin to be swallowed whole.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/new-zealand-front-queue-chris-hipkins-says-nation-well-placed-covid-19-vaccine-roll

Nov 2020 - ‘NZ front of the queue’ Chris Hipkins

And Cindy has been busy using taxpayers’ funds for PR to tell everyone what a great job her incompetent government is doing with the vaccine rollout!

Spin, spin and more spin - using your money to try & BS you!

Joshuatree
23-08-2021, 08:16 PM
God if I was a dog ,Balance I'd jump up and lick your face,I'm a believer ;)

ynot
23-08-2021, 08:24 PM
God if I was a dog ,Balance I'd jump up and lick your face,I'm a believer ;)
are you a lap dog ?

jonu
23-08-2021, 08:44 PM
are you a lap dog ?

I think JT has been at the G&T.....a little earlier than usual perhaps....but then again Cindy has sponsored another Lockdown so....

jonu
23-08-2021, 09:13 PM
I posted this on the Coronavirus thread, bit Is just as relevant here


For those who think Labour have made good use of the last 16 months while they employed an "Elimination Strategy".....think again.

Here's what ICU frontliners are saying....taken from Bryce Edwards Roundup

In this, ICU doctor Craig Carr says: “We now have more equipment compared with 18 months ago, but we actually have very few extra staff, and in some instances, we've got fewer staff”, and “Actual resourced bed capacity on a day-to-day basis, in terms of a bed with a nurse and a ventilator and all the monitors, that has not risen, to my knowledge, in the last 18 months.”

Backed up by Mathew Hooten in the same Roundup


Intensive Care Unit shortfalls

The Skegg report, delivered to the Government just before the arrival of Delta, raised questions about the capacity of ICU facilities and staffing to handle an outbreak of Covid. It was New Zealand’s lack of ICU resources that apparently convinced the Government last year that such a strong lockdown was urgent.

In Matthew Hooton’s Friday column further details emerged of how this dire situation has remained the same: “There were 334 ventilators and 358 ICU beds at the end of the first lockdown. The Ministry of Health says there are just 284 fully staffed ICU beds across public hospitals. While there are 629 ICU-capable ventilators, including 133 in reserve, the number of nurses trained to work with them improved by just 1 per cent. The problem that forced Ardern to opt for her ultra-tough strategy is as bad as ever.”

Plus this wee gem re spin and PR

In this article, MacNamara goes through the large amount of money spent on contractors and consultants, and points out that much of it went on PR specialists to handle communications, especially in terms of the vaccination programme. Despite having 64 staff working on communications, MBIE spent another $700,000 on PR advice. Another $700,000 was spent on contractors for things like vaccine procurement, with much of this going to law firm Bell Gully.

I guess it's just easier to lock the door and bring in martial law style lockdowns than actually fix anything.

Balance
23-08-2021, 09:22 PM
$700k to Bell Gully for legal work on the vaccine - WTF!

Surely MOH is familiar with procuring vaccines for as long as vaccines have been in existence!

No wonder when Cindy was asked a few years ago what were her favourite books, she had no hesitation replying ‘cheque books’ (preferably not hers).

jonu
23-08-2021, 09:47 PM
$700k to Bell Gully for legal work on the vaccine - WTF!

Surely MOH is familiar with procuring vaccines for as long as vaccines have been in existence!

No wonder when Cindy was asked a few years ago what were her favourite books, she had no hesitation replying ‘cheque books’ (preferably not hers).

Not to mention the 700k on PR....when MBIE already has 64 PR spin-sters. I reckon 64 would equate to probably 6 million in employees expenses. That's just 1 department on spin!

Ardern's best idea to get to full employment is to employ as many PR people as possible to get her re-elected.

artemis
24-08-2021, 06:49 AM
A very good programme Q & A with Jack Tame TV1 sunday. He asked Chris Hipkins specifically if they could have got more vaccine earlier by paying more or any other way. Categorically, No. Good enough for me,Chris Hipkins has been an outstanding, with integrity, servant to us throughout covid imo. Checkout the interview.

I watched this. Minister Hipkins did say 'No' but then went on to say that we were not offered options. Next question could have been - Did we ask? Push? Didn't happen. Minister Hipkins did say that the decision was made to go with Pfizer only.

Don't agree it was a great interview. Some good questions were asked, though soft answers were mostly accepted readily, but there was a lot of deflection from the Minister, and a lot of - it's a challenge, we are looking at options, training ICU staff, redoing plans for delta .... The net of which was - we knew but did very little additional.

About vaccines, the Min of Health publishes a lot of covid stats, including the cumulative number of vaccines landed. Ticked along February to mid July and then increased sharply. Not exactly hard and early.

Getty
24-08-2021, 08:47 AM
Not to mention the 700k on PR....when MBIE already has 64 PR spin-sters. I reckon 64 would equate to probably 6 million in employees expenses. That's just 1 department on spin!

Ardern's best idea to get to full employment is to employ as many PR people as possible to get her re-elected.

Drain the swamp, and kick the water foulers out!

Joshuatree
24-08-2021, 09:24 AM
I posted this on the Coronavirus thread, bit Is just as relevant here


For those who think Labour have made good use of the last 16 months while they employed an "Elimination Strategy".....think again.

Here's what ICU frontliners are saying....taken from Bryce Edwards Roundup

In this, ICU doctor Craig Carr says: “We now have more equipment compared with 18 months ago, but we actually have very few extra staff, and in some instances, we've got fewer staff”, and “Actual resourced bed capacity on a day-to-day basis, in terms of a bed with a nurse and a ventilator and all the monitors, that has not risen, to my knowledge, in the last 18 months.”

Backed up by Mathew Hooten in the same Roundup


Intensive Care Unit shortfalls

The Skegg report, delivered to the Government just before the arrival of Delta, raised questions about the capacity of ICU facilities and staffing to handle an outbreak of Covid. It was New Zealand’s lack of ICU resources that apparently convinced the Government last year that such a strong lockdown was urgent.

In Matthew Hooton’s Friday column further details emerged of how this dire situation has remained the same: “There were 334 ventilators and 358 ICU beds at the end of the first lockdown. The Ministry of Health says there are just 284 fully staffed ICU beds across public hospitals. While there are 629 ICU-capable ventilators, including 133 in reserve, the number of nurses trained to work with them improved by just 1 per cent. The problem that forced Ardern to opt for her ultra-tough strategy is as bad as ever.”

Plus this wee gem re spin and PR

In this article, MacNamara goes through the large amount of money spent on contractors and consultants, and points out that much of it went on PR specialists to handle communications, especially in terms of the vaccination programme. Despite having 64 staff working on communications, MBIE spent another $700,000 on PR advice. Another $700,000 was spent on contractors for things like vaccine procurement, with much of this going to law firm Bell Gully.

I guess it's just easier to lock the door and bring in martial law style lockdowns than actually fix anything.

And I explained to you it takes 4 or 5 years to train specialised nurses for ICU,you can't just click your fingers.And no you can't poach those staff overseas( although our blimen neighbour tries).

2ndly without the best PR we wouldn't have a team of 5 mill ,all for one and one for all,mainly ,we would have rioting and be overrun with Delta.

fungus pudding
24-08-2021, 09:33 AM
And I explained to you it takes 4 or 5 years to train specialised nurses for ICU,you can't just click your fingers.And no you can't poach those staff overseas( although our blimen neighbour tries).

2ndly without the best PR we wouldn't have a team of 5 mill ,all for one and one for all,mainly ,we would have rioting and be overrun with Delta.

We do not have a 'team' of five million going by any definition of team I have ever read. Its constant patronising misuse by Jacinda and her spin doctors is sickening.

jonu
24-08-2021, 09:41 AM
And I explained to you it takes 4 or 5 years to train specialised nurses for ICU,you can't just click your fingers.And no you can't poach those staff overseas( although our blimen neighbour tries).

2ndly without the best PR we wouldn't have a team of 5 mill ,all for one and one for all,mainly ,we would have rioting and be overrun with Delta.

And I explained to you a process that would have helped. Why can't you poach those staff from overseas? Ours have been for decades. Entice the diaspora home, make it easy for them. One of our nurses was caring for Boris Johnson!

As for the propaganda budget, I guess it is easier for people to remain in Ardern's spin cycle than face the pain of hopping out.

Logen Ninefingers
24-08-2021, 09:47 AM
And I explained to you it takes 4 or 5 years to train specialised nurses for ICU,you can't just click your fingers.And no you can't poach those staff overseas( although our blimen neighbour tries).

2ndly without the best PR we wouldn't have a team of 5 mill ,all for one and one for all,mainly ,we would have rioting and be overrun with Delta.

If we have a team of 5 million, why can we not be given vaccination targets? PM being interviewed by Ryan Bridge on this point said this morning "oh it's no good having 80% vaccinated if only 60% of under 16's are vaccinated - you could still have a big outbreak".
What a ridiculous answer: how does not setting any targets help ensure there is widespready vaccination across age ranges? You could have targets broken down into age groups in any case.
I think not having any targets is actually leading to people not getting vaccinated, as there is no sense of urgency, no timeline, no targets....it's all nebulous and airy fairy.
If they told us that once we get to 85% we would change strategy, that would be an additional incentive to get vaccinated. People need certainty, they need to know what they are striving towards.

artemis
24-08-2021, 09:51 AM
And I explained to you it takes 4 or 5 years to train specialised nurses for ICU,you can't just click your fingers.And no you can't poach those staff overseas( although our blimen neighbour tries)...

In his Q&A interview Minister Hipkins said that some ICU nurses would not be fully trained but that's OK. And I'm sure it is if they are appropriately supervised.

We could allow specialist ICU nurses in from overseas. Do we though at present? We have rentals near Wellington Hospital - medical staff from the Philippines are always top of our applicant list and the numbers here already are surprisingly large. It's not long since the hospital brought in 12 midwives from the Philippines to meet a local shortage. There were many applicants according to our family's midwife there at the time, and they are highly valued.

Balance
24-08-2021, 09:52 AM
If we have a team of 5 million, why can we not be given vaccination targets? PM being interviewed by Ryan Bridge on this point said this morning "oh it's no good having 80% vaccinated if only 60% of under 16's are vaccinated - you could still have a big outbreak".
What a ridiculous answer: how does not setting any targets help ensure there is widespready vaccination across age ranges? You could have targets broken down into age groups in any case.
I think not having any targets is actually leading to people not getting vaccinated, as there is no sense of urgency, no timeline, no targets....it's all nebulous and airy fairy.
If they told us that once we get to 85% we would change strategy, that would be an additional incentive to get vaccinated. People need certainty, they need to know what they are striving towards.

Cindy knows she and her team of incompetents are incapable of delivering anything but spin.

3 years and 9 months in government and everything has gotten worse -

crime,

child poverty,

housing,

hospital care,

mental health,

education,

budget deficits,

inflation,

race relations

vaccine rollout

border protection against the virus

So Spin is the only thing left and she is using taxpayers' funds freely and willfully to lie to NZers.

dobby41
24-08-2021, 09:56 AM
If they told us that once we get to 85% we would change strategy, that would be an additional incentive to get vaccinated. People need certainty, they need to know what they are striving towards.

They should tell us 95% of the eligible population and nothing less will do. Say that the 5% is already taken by those who can't have it for medical reasons so unless you have a medical reason you'd better get vaccinated.
Would that do?

Bjauck
24-08-2021, 10:01 AM
We do not have a 'team' of five million going by any definition of team I hav ever read. Its constant patronising misuse by Jacinda and her spin doctors is sickening. Even the best team does not convert every opportunity into a point. Every team "could do better?" I have no doubt that if the other lot were in charge there would be plenty of spinning as well.

iceman
24-08-2021, 10:11 AM
Limited supply, why?

Oh - because NZ went from front of the queue for vaccine to back of the queue, thanks to the all spin and no delivery Cindy.

Not according the the "faithful". It is Pfizer's fault that we are so bloody slack with vaccinations, not Cindy's.

Balance
24-08-2021, 10:33 AM
Even the best team does not convert every opportunity into a point. Every team "could do better?" I have no doubt that if the other lot were in charge there would be plenty of spinning as well.

Every 'lot' spins but thy at least deliver on a few things.

This lot has delivered bugger all. Refer #2378.

Blue Skies
24-08-2021, 10:48 AM
Cindy knows she and her team of incompetents are incapable of delivering anything but spin.

3 years and 9 months in government and everything has gotten worse -

crime,

child poverty,

housing,

hospital care,

mental health,

education,

budget deficits,

inflation,

race relations

vaccine rollout

border protection against the virus

So Spin is the only thing left and she is using taxpayers' funds freely and willfully to lie to NZers.



Not disagreeing but what's glaringly obvious with about the exception of the things related to Covid, that's the same list earlier National govt was criticised for.

Just mentioning, worth thinking about.

jonu
24-08-2021, 11:01 AM
Not disagreeing but what's glaringly obvious with about the exception of the things related to Covid, that's the same list earlier National govt was criticised for.

Just mentioning, worth thinking about.

Agreed, governments have been poor on a lot of these issues for years, the big difference now is the exacerbation of these issues, despite massive resources being thrown at them, and the unjustifiable tens of millions being spent on PR spinsters to mislead us. This from Ardern's "Clear and transparent" government, that is proving to be the least "Clear and Transparent" in living memory.

There's no doubt the Nats are currently a shambles. That is not a reason to accept abysmal failure from Ardern's government on almost every measurable front. And especially as they spend more and more on PR trying to convince us otherwise.

Logen Ninefingers
24-08-2021, 11:15 AM
Chancellor Adern has succeeded in having Parliament suspended....shades of 1933.

Logen Ninefingers
24-08-2021, 11:21 AM
Agreed, governments have been poor on a lot of these issues for years, the big difference now is the exacerbation of these issues, despite massive resources being thrown at them, and the unjustifiable tens of millions being spent on PR spinsters to mislead us. This from Ardern's "Clear and transparent" government, that is proving to be the least "Clear and Transparent" in living memory.

There's no doubt the Nats are currently a shambles. That is not a reason to accept abysmal failure from Ardern's government on almost every measurable front. And especially as they spend more and more on PR trying to convince us otherwise.

The Nats are a shambles thanks to Winston picking 'the accidental PM', then we saw English and others depart the scene leaving the current woeful bunch with Richard the 3rd / Muldoon in drag eventually scrambling her way to the top past Soimon and 'flakey' Muller.
I think English would have been a much better PM than Key. What a shame that Winston did what he did and we now have Cynical Cindy feeding off crisis after crisis like a popularity vampire while her incompetent government achieve nothing....expect continue to usher in 'co-governance' in a sneaky and duplicitous way.

Balance
24-08-2021, 11:22 AM
Chancellor Adern has succeeded in having Parliament suspended....shades of 1933.

On the advice of MOH - Cindy follows the advice when it suits her and ignores it when it does not suit her spin.

dobby41
24-08-2021, 11:25 AM
Chancellor Adern has succeeded in having Parliament suspended....shades of 1933.

Same as last year.
Committees still going.
Let's face it, Question time is a farce anyway.

dobby41
24-08-2021, 11:26 AM
Not according the the "faithful". It is Pfizer's fault that we are so bloody slack with vaccinations, not Cindy's.

Pfizer has delivered every installment when (or slightly before) they said they would.
No fault there!

jonu
24-08-2021, 11:27 AM
The Nats are a shambles thanks to Winston picking 'the accidental PM', then we saw English and others depart the scene leaving the current woeful bunch with Richard the 3rd / Muldoon in drag eventually scrambling her way to the top past Soimon and 'flakey' Muller.
I think English would have been a much better PM than Key. What a shame that Winston did what he did and we now have Cynical Cindy feeding off crisis after crisis like a popularity vampire while her incompetent government achieve nothing....expect continue to usher in 'co-governance' in a sneaky and duplicitous way.

Pretty well sums it up. I agree in particular about Bill English. Unfortunately in today's climate, he lacks the charisma to hold public attention. NZ is poorer for it.

westerly
24-08-2021, 11:51 AM
Another day and the usual list of anti govt. posts by the Act/National activists.
I worry for their mental health , with visions of old men frustrated and fuming over their keyboards or mobile phones.
No that is wrong. I don,t worry at all, it is all rather comical. :)

westerly

Balance
24-08-2021, 11:57 AM
Another day and the usual list of anti govt. posts by the Act/National activists.
I worry for their mental health , with visions of old men frustrated and fuming over their keyboards or mobile phones.
No that is wrong. I don,t worry at all, it is all rather comical. :)

westerly

So writes the resident indoctrinated leftist apologist for Cindy’s Spin.

fungus pudding
24-08-2021, 11:58 AM
Another day and the usual list of anti govt. posts by the Act/National activists.
I worry for their mental health , with visions of old men frustrated and fuming over their keyboards or mobile phones.
No that is wrong. I don,t worry at all, it is all rather comical. :)

westerly

You do not have to be a National/Act activist to be against the current hopeless and incompetent bunch in power.

Balance
24-08-2021, 12:29 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300389883/covid19-labour-again-caught-delivering-party-advertising-during-lockdown

Busted again - Cindy paid spin drones breaching L4 lockdown rules, delivering & distributing spin of how shxt hot she is.

Logen Ninefingers
24-08-2021, 01:41 PM
Another day and the usual list of anti govt. posts by the Act/National activists.
I worry for their mental health , with visions of old men frustrated and fuming over their keyboards or mobile phones.
No that is wrong. I don,t worry at all, it is all rather comical. :)

westerly

visions of old men frustrated and fuming over their keyboards or mobile phones.

The usual ageist and sexist stuff we can expect from the Left, but you lose points for not throwing in 'white' as well - you could have got the trifecta!

jonu
24-08-2021, 02:00 PM
Really good opinion piece on Ardern here. Graham Adams hits so many nails he doesn't need a nail gun!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/graham-adams-is-jacinda-ardern-the-messiah-or-just-a-very-crafty-politician/OX6JWIDJE2TA2RSCXVGMJVH77Q/

His reference to her leaving Mormonism in 2005 is interesting timing, given her Comrades speech in 2009, a mere 8 years before she was our PM. I remember her dismissing it as being "a long time ago" when she was campaigning in 2017.

In case you needed reminding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

Comrade 15x in 7 minutes.

Balance
24-08-2021, 02:14 PM
Really good opinion piece on Ardern here. Graham Adams hits so many nails he doesn't need a nail gun!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/graham-adams-is-jacinda-ardern-the-messiah-or-just-a-very-crafty-politician/OX6JWIDJE2TA2RSCXVGMJVH77Q/

His reference to her leaving Mormonism in 2005 is interesting timing, given her Comrades speech in 2009, a mere 8 years before she was our PM. I remember her dismissing it as being "a long time ago" when she was campaigning in 2017.

In case you needed reminding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

Comrade 15x in 7 minutes.

Best line in the article :

As another wag put it: "Ardern asks water to stop being wet."

She is one very deluded, incompetent and therefore, dangerous girl who believes that spinning half truths and preaching falsehoods to her gullible followers is the nark of leadership. Remember she was going to lead the most transparent and accountable administration ever?

Balance
24-08-2021, 03:58 PM
“Pipkins wouldn’t say whether the Government has offered more money to Pfizer in order to speed up deliveries of vaccine supply.
“I’m not going to get into our commercial negotiations.”
He said Pfizer has not made an offer of faster delivery of supplies for more money.
He has previously said that throwing more money at Pfizer to jump the queue would be “unethical”.
“That would have been unethical, trying to effectively bribe our way to get more earlier. It’s just not the way we operate as a Government,” Hipkins told the Herald in July.”

But it’s the way this government operates when it buys votes - $100m for marae to buy Maori votes.

Logen Ninefingers
24-08-2021, 04:06 PM
“Pipkins wouldn’t say whether the Government has offered more money to Pfizer in order to speed up deliveries of vaccine supply.
“I’m not going to get into our commercial negotiations.”
He said Pfizer has not made an offer of faster delivery of supplies for more money.
He has previously said that throwing more money at Pfizer to jump the queue would be “unethical”.
“That would have been unethical, trying to effectively bribe our way to get more earlier. It’s just not the way we operate as a Government,” Hipkins told the Herald in July.”

But it’s the way this government operates when it buys votes - $100m for marae to buy Maori votes.

He has previously said that throwing more money at Pfizer to jump the queue would be “unethical”.

He can call it "unethical", I would call it "leaving no stone unturned to ensure the best possible outcome for New Zealanders".

Balance
24-08-2021, 04:16 PM
He has previously said that throwing more money at Pfizer to jump the queue would be “unethical”.

He can call it "unethical", I would call it "leaving no stone unturned to ensure the best possible outcome for New Zealanders".

Agreed.

That’s the spin (throwing money unethical) from this devious government who tells half-truths most of the time. In the real world, it is called ‘negotiation’ and supply & demand.

ynot
24-08-2021, 04:33 PM
He has previously said that throwing more money at Pfizer to jump the queue would be “unethical”.

He can call it "unethical", I would call it "leaving no stone unturned to ensure the best possible outcome for New Zealanders".
Virtue signalling at the expense of the health of your own citizens.
We are paying this idiot.

fungus pudding
24-08-2021, 04:37 PM
Virtue signalling at the expense of the health of your own citizens.
We are paying this idiot.

Is Hipkins an idiot? I'd say compared to most of the current Labour party, he's exceptionally bright.

Balance
24-08-2021, 04:46 PM
Is Hipkins an idiot? I'd say compared to most of the current Labour party, he's exceptionally bright.

Now you have got the state of Cindy’s team in proper perspective.

Logen Ninefingers
24-08-2021, 04:52 PM
Another Labour volunteer has been busted delivering party advertising in breach of alert level alert level 4 restrictions.
On Sunday and Monday, residents in Auckland’s Ellerslie opened their letterboxes to find Labour-branded pamphlets bearing a smiling image of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern.
The pamphlets were emblazoned with messages including “our recovery is working” and “securing New Zealand's recovery”.

What the heck is going on?
If they were not supposed to be out delivering this material, why did the Labour Party make it available to them?
This smacks of all those times Cynical Cindy took selfies with her fawning supporters, when the rest of us were told we had to observe social distancing.
It's one rule for the Labour Party (and the fish rots from head) and another rule for us plebs.

Bjauck
25-08-2021, 09:20 AM
Really good opinion piece on Ardern here. Graham Adams hits so many nails he doesn't need a nail gun!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/graham-adams-is-jacinda-ardern-the-messiah-or-just-a-very-crafty-politician/OX6JWIDJE2TA2RSCXVGMJVH77Q/

His reference to her leaving Mormonism in 2005 is interesting timing, given her Comrades speech in 2009, a mere 8 years before she was our PM. I remember her dismissing it as being "a long time ago" when she was campaigning in 2017.

In case you needed reminding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

Comrade 15x in 7 minutes.

Comrade, brother, sister, fellow, esteemed learned friend, colleague etc. What is in a name? Use depends on tradition. It is used outside the left wing too. However for a Right wing person perhaps its use only jars when it is used by someone on the left wing or by a unionist.

Bjauck
25-08-2021, 09:32 AM
Another Labour volunteer has been busted delivering party advertising in breach of alert level alert level 4 restrictions.
On Sunday and Monday, residents in Auckland’s Ellerslie opened their letterboxes to find Labour-branded pamphlets bearing a smiling image of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern.
The pamphlets were emblazoned with messages including “our recovery is working” and “securing New Zealand's recovery”.

What the heck is going on?
If they were not supposed to be out delivering this material, why did the Labour Party make it available to them?
This smacks of all those times Cynical Cindy took selfies with her fawning supporters, when the rest of us were told we had to observe social distancing.
It's one rule for the Labour Party (and the fish rots from head) and another rule for us plebs. Those volunteers must have tunnelled vision.

fungus pudding
25-08-2021, 10:09 AM
Comrade, brother, sister, fellow, esteemed learned friend, colleague etc. What is in a name?

Quite a lot including a basic portrait of the user.

Getty
25-08-2021, 10:31 AM
Comrade, brother, sister, fellow, esteemed learned friend, colleague etc. What is in a name? Use depends on tradition. It is used outside the left wing too. However for a Right wing person perhaps its use only jars when it is used by someone on the left wing or by a unionist.

Cindy, aka Little Red Robbing Hood.

Logen Ninefingers
25-08-2021, 11:46 AM
Rules for some.....

28 minutes ago
Public access to some popular recreation areas closed

In DOC’s Hauraki district, Kauaeranga Valley Rd (near Thames) into public conservation land has been closed to prevent people entering the valley for tramping or hunting. This is usually a popular conservation recreation area.

The Broken Hills recreation area has also been closed to the public.

The department said these sites will remain closed until alert levels drop and Kiwis can get out and explore beyond their local areas again.

All DoC Great Walks, huts, campsites and other facilities nationwide are also closed, and people must not go hunting, fishing from boats, tramping, skiing or swimming, or do any water-based activities or other activities that expose them to danger, or which may require search and rescue services.

People are also prohibited from isolating in DOC huts, lodges or campsites.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Rules for others....how do you get to the river to go whitebaiting without travelling??!! Teleport(?)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300390683/covid19-confusion-reigns-over-rules-as-whitebaiters-hit-rivers-in-lockdown

Mixed messages from Government departments is causing confusion among whitebaiters about whether they are allowed to fish.

Department of Conservation media and communications manager Bronwyn Saunders told the Beacon that whitebaiting was not permitted under alert level 4, while police appear to have given it their blessing.

With the lockdown falling right at the beginning of the whitebaiting season, many people have been making use of their time off work to go whitebaiting. Up to 20 people at a time have been seen on the banks of the Rangitaiki River at Thornton with more fishing the Whakatane River.

A Thornton resident, who asked not to be named, is upset police are turning a blind eye. “There are more people turning up here every day in their cars and the police have stopped coming down here at all because they don’t want to be seen to be doing anything. I am really disappointed in the police,” he said.

“The message from Government is quite clear to stay home except to buy food or access medical help. These people are putting us all at risk of an even longer lockdown.

“I have had reports and first-hand discussions of the main excuses and it seems to be a misguided belief that tangata whenua are not restricted by level 4 rules. I was told by one whitebaiter that whitebaiting is a traditional activity that is allowed under the Covid lockdown rules. Some people have become quite abusive to some of my neighbours when they have told them they have not supposed to be whitebaiting.

According to police, whitebaiters are not breaking any rules.

Senior Sergeant Al Fenwick said the best information police had was that whitebaiting, or food gathering in a safe manner, was above board. He said police were taking a commonsense approach to the activity.

As long as there were no bubbles breached, people were staying close to home, not travelling to participate in whitebaiting and were keeping safe on land – the activity was permitted.

This would continue to be their approach, although he warned that could change.

The Thornton resident said he had been in touch with police, DOC, the Ministry of Primary Industries and Whakatane district councilors about the issue and he was aware that breaches had been reported to the Covid-19 compliance centre.

“The simplest solution would be to have the whitebait season suspended until we return to level 2, to take away any doubt and help save the country.”

Whakatane District Council communications and engagement manager Alexandra Pickles said the issue was not the council’s domain. “The government has provided clear guidance through its Unite Against Covid-19 website. Whakatāne District Council is supporting all guidance and messaging through official channels,” Ms Pickles said.

westerly
25-08-2021, 11:53 AM
visions of old men frustrated and fuming over their keyboards or mobile phones.

The usual ageist and sexist stuff we can expect from the Left, but you lose points for not throwing in 'white' as well - you could have got the trifecta!

My grand daughter tells me I qualify in all three. :) Not sure about the left

westerly

Logen Ninefingers
25-08-2021, 12:40 PM
My grand daughter tells me I qualify in all three. :) Not sure about the left

westerly

Your grand daughter refers to you as an old white man?

Logen Ninefingers
26-08-2021, 01:24 PM
The PM is today blatantly using the daily COVID 1 pm update to make a Party Political Broadcast. Meanwhile, Parliament is suspended.

fungus pudding
26-08-2021, 01:33 PM
The PM is today blatantly using the daily COVID 1 pm update to make a Party Political Broadcast. Meanwhile, Parliament is suspended.

I didn't catch the political broadcast bit. Mind you. I have to dive out to puke everytime she comes out with that team of five million nonsense.

Logen Ninefingers
26-08-2021, 01:49 PM
I didn't catch the political broadcast bit. Mind you. I have to dive out to puke everytime she comes out with that team of five million nonsense.

Well she is talking about "wonderful, wonderful" Labour Party volunteers at the moment.

dobby41
26-08-2021, 01:52 PM
Well she is talking about "wonderful, wonderful" Labour Party volunteers at the moment.

So you commented prior to her comment - impressive.

fungus pudding
26-08-2021, 01:52 PM
Well she is talking about "wonderful, wonderful" Labour Party volunteers at the moment.
I think I feel another puke coming on.

dobby41
26-08-2021, 02:02 PM
I think I feel another puke coming on.

you betta get a bucket :ohmy:

Balance
26-08-2021, 02:11 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300391806/labour-lockdown-ads-pamphlets-delivered-in-pms-auckland-electorate

Of course the Labour Party volunteers are wonderful - breaching lockdown rules and delivering propaganda all over the place. Cindy must be so so pleased with them. Not a single word of course from her about the breaches.

dobby41
26-08-2021, 02:46 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300391806/labour-lockdown-ads-pamphlets-delivered-in-pms-auckland-electorate

Of course the Labour Party volunteers are wonderful - breaching lockdown rules and delivering propaganda all over the place. Cindy must be so so pleased with them. Not a single word of course from her about the breaches.

Not a word?
That was the word - in that article.

Balance
26-08-2021, 03:22 PM
Not a word?
That was the word - in that article.

Ah - Suff has updated the article.

Cindy is disappointed (wink wink nudge nudge).

Must be getting desperate to get her next poll ratings up - sign that the team of 5 million is rapidly seeing through her spin.

dobby41
26-08-2021, 03:32 PM
Ah - Suff has updated the article.

Cindy is disappointed (wink wink nudge nudge).

Must be getting desperate to get her next poll ratings up - sign that the team of 5 million is rapidly seeing through her spin.

Sure - you just have trouble keeping up.

Joshuatree
26-08-2021, 03:34 PM
Yeah , keep refreshing Balance, accentuate the negative only.

Balance
26-08-2021, 03:39 PM
Yeah , keep refreshing Balance, accentuate the negative only.

Where's the positive?

Crime
Child poverty
Housing Disaster
Homeless
Mental Health

'Front of the vaccine queue to last in the queue' is a positive?

Logen Ninefingers
26-08-2021, 03:49 PM
Where's the positive?

Crime
Child poverty
Housing Disaster
Homeless
Mental Health

'Front of the vaccine queue to last in the queue' is a positive?

You can't argue with trade unionists and marxist activists mate. Cindy could shoot someone on Queen Street and not lose their support.

Joshuatree
26-08-2021, 03:53 PM
You cant reason with whale oil type dirty politics sycophants.Always transparent as , those types.;)

Balance
26-08-2021, 03:55 PM
You cant reason with whale oil type dirty politics sycophants.Always transparent as , those types.;)

National Party supporter, are you?

Not me.

Logen Ninefingers
26-08-2021, 04:21 PM
Dirty politics is having your supporters out delivering propaganda during a lockdown.

Dirty politics is ushering in 'co-governance' by stealth despite having never campaigned on it or including it in your manifesto.

Balance
26-08-2021, 10:18 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-we-dont-expect-perfection-prime-minister-but-drop-the-defensiveness/BIA5FSJG5KTBS33HT3DCCGP7RM/

Paywalled

Cindy with her political party broadcast this afternoon - sounding all defensive and completely missing the points being raised regarding the current outbreak, especially pertaining to the vaccination rollout.

She still cannot explain how NZ went from front of the queue to back of the queue for vaccines and why MBIE negotiated the vaccine contract (chalking up $$$$ of outside legal & PR fees) when it should have been handled by Pharmac.

Balance
27-08-2021, 07:38 AM
The slow vaccine rollout

courtesy of an incompetent Cindy living in Covid elimination land

is the reason why this delta virus outbreak is spreading

like PR spin coming out of Cindy’s mouth and requiring a prolonged lockdown

costing billions of dollars to NZ

and

will cost lives.

dobby41
27-08-2021, 08:14 AM
The slow vaccine rollout

courtesy of an incompetent Cindy living in Covid elimination land

is the reason why this delta virus outbreak is spreading

like PR spin coming out of Cindy’s mouth and requiring a prolonged lockdown

costing billions of dollars to NZ

and

will cost lives.

If only we had followed Australia as you had wanted.
NSW HAS cost lives - 80 of them. Given this is Sydney with the same pop as NZ then 80 lives here.
That AND a 9 week, and counting, lockdown.
I wish they had followed your advice.

Balance
27-08-2021, 08:34 AM
The Government has learned nothing.

The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is still giving out contradictory advice. Why are butchers, bakers and greengrocers closed? How are supermarkets with unvaccinated workers safer?

For almost 30 years Pharmac has purchased the nation's vaccines. Yet ministers appointed MBIE to purchase Covid vaccines. The ministry has never bought an Aspirin.

Officials spent half a million dollars on consultants and lawyers. Wasting time, MBIE lost our place in the queue.

Balance
27-08-2021, 08:35 AM
The Simpson/Roche report last September recommended: "All efforts should be made to introduce saliva testing as soon as possible".

Unbelievably, Cabinet has issued "Covid-19 Public Health Response (Point-of-care Tests) order 2021" banning the unauthorised importing of rapid Covid tests.

The Ministry of Health has totally botched obtaining rapid tests. Instead of expressing frustration, Andrew Little should accept that he is the Minister and is responsible.

Balance
27-08-2021, 10:07 AM
From another thread:

‘Don Braid of MFT said on radio yesterday that due to L4 restrictions on loading export containers under the current lockdown, export volumes are down 30% compared to what they would be in L2. He also fears the fact that there have been NO communications from Ministry of Transport with the transport industry on how they will operate to move freight if the country will go into different levels in different areas. Has been trying to contact the ministry but no response. Incredible.’

Cindy & her team of incompetent nincompoops too busy chasing Covid votes to properly run the country.

Balance
27-08-2021, 06:04 PM
The former Labour Minister of Health, Dr Michael Bassett, made this prophetic post: "If the Delta Variant creeps in, that will provide a platform for daily press conferences where the Prime Minister can look concerned and wave phony solutions, and fill the TV news programmes".

To command both TV news channels, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern waited until 6pm to tell us that Covid was in the community. Then we had to wait 10 minutes for an announcement that was largely self-congratulatory.

Ardern is exploiting the lockdown for publicity. Ministers knew last Friday that the lockdown would not end last night. Announcing short extensions enables Ardern to dominate the news.

jonu
27-08-2021, 06:21 PM
The former Labour Minister of Health, Dr Michael Bassett, made this prophetic post: "If the Delta Variant creeps in, that will provide a platform for daily press conferences where the Prime Minister can look concerned and wave phony solutions, and fill the TV news programmes".

To command both TV news channels, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern waited until 6pm to tell us that Covid was in the community. Then we had to wait 10 minutes for an announcement that was largely self-congratulatory.

Ardern is exploiting the lockdown for publicity. Ministers knew last Friday that the lockdown would not end last night. Announcing short extensions enables Ardern to dominate the news.

It does my head in that her Labour acolytes can't or refuse to see it. She is beyond contempt.

If you are a "large landlord" as one of her most strident defenders here self described, or in the PR industry, I guess you have a vested interest in seeing she governs.
For anyone else concerned for the long term good of this country she will be a black stain on our history and will doubtless only have Muldoon for company in terms of notoriety.

fungus pudding
27-08-2021, 06:33 PM
It does my head in that her Labour acolytes can't or refuse to see it. She is beyond contempt.

If you are a "large landlord" as one of her most strident defenders here self described, or in the PR industry, I guess you have a vested interest in seeing she governs.
For anyone else concerned for the long term good of this country she will be a black stain on our history and will doubtless only have Muldoon for company in terms of notoriety.
Don't be too sure. She's still riding high with Too many of the hoi polloi.

Balance
27-08-2021, 07:12 PM
A fix-it Minister would:

• Put Pharmac in charge of purchasing

• Buy rapid DIY Covid tests. Airfreight the kits. Distribute them through supermarkets. We could be self-testing in 48 hours

• Buy more vaccines, especially the one-dose type

• Give everyone their first dose in 30 days. Use every available health resource - GP clinics, pharmacies, district nurses, Plunket, the lot. Keep the vaccination centers open 24/7

With DIY tests and rapid vaccination, this lockdown can succeed. With vaccination this can be the last lockdown.

Instead, we have a control obsessed inexperience government, putting NZers and NZ economy at risk unnecessarily.

Logen Ninefingers
28-08-2021, 06:59 AM
Another massive debacle by this government. Going from the ‘front of the queue’ to somewhere near the back - this ranks alongside KiwiBuild as another catastrophic failure to deliver on a promise.

artemis
28-08-2021, 09:03 AM
Don't be too sure. She's still riding high with Too many of the hoi polloi.

She is very popular, certainly. But there are cracks appearing on several fronts. And cracks don't magically patch themselves. On the contrary.

Ms Ardern may well step aside at some point (do a John Key) in good time for a successor to bed in before the 2023 election. She will have plenty of attractive offers.

iceman
28-08-2021, 11:57 AM
She is very popular, certainly. But there are cracks appearing on several fronts. And cracks don't magically patch themselves. On the contrary.

Ms Ardern may well step aside at some point (do a John Key) in good time for a successor to bed in before the 2023 election. She will have plenty of attractive offers.

Lets hope so. I bet you the "attractive offers" will not be from private businesses. More likely in NGOs , UN, or something similar, like previous Labour Leaders Mike Moore & Helen Clarke. Mind you she probably won't be appointed as an Ambassador like Moore, as she hasn't got the skills for it.

fungus pudding
28-08-2021, 12:34 PM
Lets hope so. I bet you the "attractive offers" will not be from private businesses. More likely in NGOs , UN, or something similar, like previous Labour Leaders Mike Moore & Helen Clarke. Mind you she probably won't be appointed as an Ambassador like Moore, as she hasn't got the skills for it.

I wouldn't bet on it. There'd be plenty of public companies ready to snap her up as chief waffler in their PR dept.
If you've met a few members of her fan club, you may have noticed generally they're not over-analytical.

Balance
28-08-2021, 09:07 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-epsom-vaccination-centre-closed-more-than-100-people-booked-not-told/6H7WKG7W6GQRXOBIGC2FBIGWFY/

Another screw up - closing a vaccination centre and not bothering to inform 100+ individuals that their bookings were cancelled.

This is typical of the way the whole vaccination program has been managed by this government of incompetents.

Getty
29-08-2021, 07:42 AM
They must be trying to needle the people...

Getty
29-08-2021, 07:58 AM
But not with this thread...

fungus pudding
29-08-2021, 08:44 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-epsom-vaccination-centre-closed-more-than-100-people-booked-not-told/6H7WKG7W6GQRXOBIGC2FBIGWFY/

Another screw up - closing a vaccination centre and not bothering to inform 100+ individuals that their bookings were cancelled.

This is typical of the way the whole vaccination program has been managed by this government of incompetents.

Just shows - you shouldn't expect too much from a couple of pricks.

Getty
29-08-2021, 08:54 AM
That was a cruel jab...

Balance
29-08-2021, 08:56 AM
It is starting to dawn on most commentators (and increasing number of NZers) that Cindy is a one trick pony - incapable of learning from experience.

Failure to deliver on promises and now, failure to deliver on keeping Covid at bay while NZ languish at the vaccination stake.

From front of queue to last in the queue.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/heather-du-plessis-allan-level-4-lockdown-and-how-our-mood-has-changed/FOJIWNBRXOQL3ID7SWCQ7OBZXE/

‘Most of it, though, is driven by an enormous sense of disappointment. We thought New Zealand was exceptional. The world raved about our world-leading Covid response. But now, the world is ridiculing us at worst, shocked at best.

Our national pride is at stake, says economist Robert MacCulloch. This outbreak threatens to break our spirits and he worries that if we fall into despondency at the thought of being left behind by the world it could lead to an economic slump.

It's likely dawning on a lot of people how unprepared our leaders were for this outbreak.

Little in our Covid response has changed between March 2020 and today.

That'll come as a shock and disappointment to many who put so much faith in Jacinda and Ashley.‘

Balance
29-08-2021, 09:02 AM
Let's throw a thought to the die-hard Labourites & Cindy supporters here - the vaccination rollout needs to be accelerated rather than slowed down (as it looks to be the case now that vaccine stock & deliveries are low again)

so

let's get the other vaccines which are available.

Get jabbing!

Think Cindy & her team of incompetents (with $$$$ thrown at consultants) can manage this simple task?

artemis
29-08-2021, 09:11 AM
But not with this thread...

Very Good!

fungus pudding
29-08-2021, 09:41 AM
According to Carmel Sepuloni speaking on the Nation, 'it's not fair' that Maoris die younger than non-maori.
They should immediately pass a law making that illegal.

Bjauck
29-08-2021, 09:51 AM
I wouldn't bet on it. There'd be plenty of public companies ready to snap her up as chief waffler in their PR dept.
If you've met a few members of her fan club, you may have noticed generally they're not over-analytical. Yep. Key could get her a position in PR for ANZ. Ardern could be the ying to Key's yang. After all they have both done stellar jobs on boosting mortgage inflated land values and mortgage inflated bottom lines for the banks.

ynot
29-08-2021, 09:59 AM
Yep. Key could get her a position in PR for ANZ. Ardern could be the ying to Key's yang. After all they have both done stellar jobs on boosting mortgage inflated land values and mortgage inflated bottom lines for the banks.

Somehow I don't think ANZ is up to Jacinda's woke standards. ANZ a bit wanting in the "be kind" department.

Getty
29-08-2021, 10:05 AM
Let's throw a thought to the die-hard Labourites & Cindy supporters here - the vaccination rollout needs to be accelerated rather than slowed down (as it looks to be the case now that vaccine stock & deliveries are low again)

so

let's get the other vaccines which are available.

Get jabbing!

Think Cindy & her team of incompetents (with $$$$ thrown at consultants) can manage this simple task?

Reminds me of the talkative bull.

Every time he saw a cow, he wanted to jabber...

Balance
29-08-2021, 11:11 AM
Reminds me of the talkative bull.

Every time he saw a cow, he wanted to jabber...

As in Chris Hipkins ‘Spread your legs’?

Getty
29-08-2021, 11:27 AM
Seemingly..

Bjauck
29-08-2021, 11:48 AM
Somehow I don't think ANZ is up to Jacinda's woke standards. ANZ a bit wanting in the "be kind" department. A "veneer" of kindness is in effect what the government is actually delivering - should suit ANZ too?

Balance
29-08-2021, 12:06 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300393391/if-the-government-is-making-the-right-decisions-on-covid19-it-will-withstand-scruntiny

Government supporters aggressively insist critics should shut up and trust the experts. That anyone questioning the prevailing approach is recklessly anti-science, undermining the response or indifferent to a higher death toll.

ynot
29-08-2021, 12:33 PM
A "veneer" of kindness is in effect what the government is actually delivering - should suit ANZ too?
Surely your not suggesting Jacinda's "be kind" is but a veneer. If she as not as nice as she would lead us to believe, then what really makes her tick ?

Balance
29-08-2021, 12:40 PM
Surely your not suggesting Jacinda's "be kind" is but a veneer. If she as not as nice as she would lead us to believe, then what really makes her tick ?

Her aim to convert all to be her comrades? Communist & socialist paradise?

Logen Ninefingers
29-08-2021, 02:13 PM
The absolute crushing conformity of society is on full display. People lining up two metres apart, wearing masks, in towns and villages all across New Zealand where there is demonstrably no virus in the community, and once we are out of Level 4 we are straight into Level 3 lite. This crushing lockdown will continue for no reason or purpose. And now Ardern reacts to a journalists question by suggesting they will tighten up on ‘essential workers’ even more, forcing more people to stay home right across the nation. The entire nation must shut down because of what is happening in Auckland: how is that a wise and just government? Is it ‘kind’ to shut down an entire nation when the outbreak is confined to one city? I think Adern and her timid government - influenced by lunatic advisors - will be utterly damned by history. This country has turned into a madhouse and a compliant sheep-like public have allowed it to happen.

FTG
29-08-2021, 02:47 PM
The absolute crushing conformity of society is on full display. People lining up two metres apart, wearing masks, in towns and villages all across New Zealand where there is demonstrably no virus in the community, and once we are out of Level 4 we are straight into Level 3 lite. This crushing lockdown will continue for no reason or purpose. And now Ardern reacts to a journalists question by suggesting they will tighten up on ‘essential workers’ even more, forcing more people to stay home right across the nation. The entire nation must shut down because of what is happening in Auckland: how is that a wise and just government? Is it ‘kind’ to shut down an entire nation when the outbreak is confined to one city? I think Adern and her timid government - influenced by lunatic advisors - will be utterly damned by history. This country has turned into a madhouse and a compliant sheep-like public have allowed it to happen.


Well let's not forget, NZ is known as the land of "the long white cloud" AND a country full of Sheeple. :cool:

Balance
29-08-2021, 09:16 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/arthur-grimes-government-has-caused-housing-crisis-to-become-a-catastrophe/KIC4UPEHUMTEJPP6NO22NO6SPI/

Paywalled

This government has turned a housing crisis into a catastrophe.

Excerpt :

"The last Government promised to contain house prices, but failed to do so. When I called publicly for them to enact policies that would return prices to the levels when they took office – requiring a price fall of 40 per cent – they refused to contemplate house prices falling from their new higher levels.

The current Government has failed even more spectacularly. It, also, has publicly refused to contemplate house prices falling from even more unaffordable levels."

artemis
30-08-2021, 09:45 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/arthur-grimes-government-has-caused-housing-crisis-to-become-a-catastrophe/KIC4UPEHUMTEJPP6NO22NO6SPI/

Paywalled

This government has turned a housing crisis into a catastrophe.

Reprinted from the the latest Listener. Many libraries have magazines available to download and read free. Wellington City Library does, including this issue of the Listener.

Balance
30-08-2021, 09:13 PM
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/des-gorman-responds-to-revelations-the-government-running-out-of-vaccines-because-it-delayed-its-vaccine-shipment/

Chris Hipkins either lying about the vaccine delivery dates or confused - in either case, thoroughly unacceptable and demonstrates clearly how incompetent Cindy’s blue eyes boy really is.

dobby41
31-08-2021, 08:26 AM
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/des-gorman-responds-to-revelations-the-government-running-out-of-vaccines-because-it-delayed-its-vaccine-shipment/

Chris Hipkins either lying about the vaccine delivery dates or confused - in either case, thoroughly unacceptable and demonstrates clearly how incompetent Cindy’s blue eyes boy really is.

Have you ever thought that decisions change when new information is presented?
I'm sure you follow that line of thinking in your share dealings.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Balance
31-08-2021, 08:31 AM
Have you ever thought that decisions change when new information is presented?
I'm sure you follow that line of thinking in your share dealings.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Yup - decisions do change but lies & spin do not.

Cindy & her incompetents are so proficient now in spin that they are incapable of straight talking or telling the truth anymore. They lie so easily and the truth coming out is catching them out BIG TIME.

Here are the facts :

1. Chris Hipkins told all and sundry that NZ was front of the queue for vaccine. Screwed that up and NZ ended up last in the queue.

2. Chris said that all of the Pfizer vaccine would be with NZ by 'end of September'. He then changed his story that he mis-interpreted the delivery information and it was always October. Now we know that he actually knew that the vaccine scheduled for September were deferred to Oct & Nov - by the government's own decision!

Once a person start spinning, he does not know how to stop and then, resorts to lies.

Spread your legs.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300394580/covid19-nz-chris-hipkins-admits-misinterpreting-vaccine-delivery-schedule-by-a-month

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/des-gorman-responds-to-revelations-the-government-running-out-of-vaccines-because-it-delayed-its-vaccine-shipment/

3 things cannot be long hidden - the sun, the moon & the truth. Buddha

If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. Mark Twain

iceman
31-08-2021, 09:22 AM
Have you ever thought that decisions change when new information is presented?
I'm sure you follow that line of thinking in your share dealings.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Seriously dobby41, even for you this debacle shouldn't be accepted. The vaccine "stroll-out" has been a complete disaster and now we learn that Hipkins negotiated delayed deliveries of Pfizer because he was worried we didn't have enough fridge space. Now they are talking about slowing the vaccinations down from over 90k per day to 50k per day, because they've stuffed this up yet again, while the country is locked down and businesses paralyzed. Then the PM comes on TV this morning full of spin and bluster. Her credibility and that of Hipkins are now completely shot and the media and much of the public is finally starting to see it.

fungus pudding
31-08-2021, 09:33 AM
Seriously dobby41, even for you this debacle should't be accepted. The vaccine "stroll-out" has been a complete disaster and it now we learn that Hipkins negotiated delayed deliveries of Pfizer because he was worried we didn't have enough fridge space. Now they are talking about slowing the vaccinations down from over 90k per day to 50k per day, because they've stuffed this up yet again, while the country is locked down and businesses paralyzed. Then the PM comes on TV this morning full of spin and bluster. Her credibility and that of Hipkins are now completely shot and the media and much of the public is finally starting to see it.

Unless National do something about their leader fairly soon, Labour will stroll back in for a third term, along with the dismal Kermit party.

jonu
31-08-2021, 10:03 AM
I posted this on the Coronavirus thread, but it is equally relevant here.

Here's an article about mandatory record keeping.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...ing-compulsory

It largely follows the normal government mouth piece formula, but it does contain this pearl.

"The tech giants only allow Governments access to Bluetooth tracking data from their devices if Governments do not make scanning mandatory. This is why the government talks of mandatory “record keeping” – not scanning in."


It would appear we are relying on tech giants to hold higher privacy and ethical standards than our governments.

Who'd a thunk?

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 10:11 AM
This morning while channel surfing during breakfast, I noted that the PM stated on the AM Show that we've "smashed through peak delivery records, beating Canada, Australia, the UK, the USA.... No one has had a peak like ours, no one!" After the graph presented at the press briefing yesterday, this reminds me of Trump seeking out and touting favourable statistics that have little real relevence. Very disappointing.

Balance
31-08-2021, 10:19 AM
This morning while channel surfing during breakfast, I noted that the PM stated on the AM Show that we've "smashed through peak delivery records, beating Canada, Australia, the UK, the USA.... No one has had a peak like ours, no one!" After the graph presented at the press briefing yesterday, this reminds me of Trump seeking out and touting favourable statistics that have little real relevence. Very disappointing.

She has hired a team of dozens of PR spinners amongst her ministries - their job is to come out with that kind of spin. Totally irrelevant to what she was asked - she did not even bother to reply but just opened her mouth snd out came the web of spin.

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 10:22 AM
I posted this on the Coronavirus thread, but it is equally relevant here.

Here's an article about mandatory record keeping.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...ing-compulsory

It largely follows the normal government mouth piece formula, but it does contain this pearl.

"The tech giants only allow Governments access to Bluetooth tracking data from their devices if Governments do not make scanning mandatory. This is why the government talks of mandatory “record keeping” – not scanning in."


It would appear we are relying on tech giants to hold higher privacy and ethical standards than our governments.

Who'd a thunk?

While the government does appear to be playing games with semantics, do they government routinely or have any access to the data stored by the app without user permission? The app itself works on push notifications, meaning that if an infected individual is identified, their location and/or bluetooth tracking keys are uploaded for comparison by the app running on the device of other users. Until that occurs, theoretically no PII data is transmitted.

winner69
31-08-2021, 10:51 AM
Funny as hearing PM and Hipkins with contradicting comments on how much vaccine we have and will be getting

Case of more one trys to explain the bigger the deeper the hole becomes

Only conclusion to come to is that we are going to run out in the next week or so and jabbing will have to be stopped (or seriously curtailed)

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 10:56 AM
Funny as hearing PM and Hipkins with contradicting comments on how much vaccine we have and will be getting

Case of more one trys to explain the bigger the deeper the hole becomes

Only conclusion to come to is that we are going to run out in the next week or so and jabbing will have to be stopped (or seriously curtailed)

There was also a comment this morning from the PM about people preferring the Pfizer vaccine because we're familiar with it, and that's why they're concentrating on that specific vaccine. I can't remember the statement exactly.

It'll be interesting to see what deal they've actually inked (to quote Hipkins).

dobby41
31-08-2021, 11:17 AM
I posted this on the Coronavirus thread, but it is equally relevant here.

Here's an article about mandatory record keeping.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...ing-compulsory

It largely follows the normal government mouth piece formula, but it does contain this pearl.

"The tech giants only allow Governments access to Bluetooth tracking data from their devices if Governments do not make scanning mandatory. This is why the government talks of mandatory “record keeping” – not scanning in."


It would appear we are relying on tech giants to hold higher privacy and ethical standards than our governments.

Who'd a thunk?

So I'll have to post the same reply
I think we can't make scanning and Bluetooth compulsory but we can make record keeping compulsory.
Those who don't want to scan have to record by another means.
Same level of privacy and ethics.

Did you know that Australia and Singapore use a centralised record system - they know where you have been if they wish to look, without your permission.
We keep the record on our phone and only share keys.
When there is a positive they ask the person to upload the data (they don't have to) and then they tell the phones, which then alert the user who can then ignore if they wish.

Which model has a higher privacy standard?

dobby41
31-08-2021, 11:19 AM
This morning while channel surfing during breakfast, I noted that the PM stated on the AM Show that we've "smashed through peak delivery records, beating Canada, Australia, the UK, the USA.... No one has had a peak like ours, no one!" After the graph presented at the press briefing yesterday, this reminds me of Trump seeking out and touting favourable statistics that have little real relevence. Very disappointing.

That was in reply to Ryan suggesting we should have anticipated the surge in vaccination based on overseas experience.

dobby41
31-08-2021, 11:22 AM
There was also a comment this morning from the PM about people preferring the Pfizer vaccine because we're familiar with it, and that's why they're concentrating on that specific vaccine. I can't remember the statement exactly.

It'll be interesting to see what deal they've actually inked (to quote Hipkins).

We had agreed to get 1.5mil doses and changed that early this year to 10mil when the decision was made to concentrate on just Pfizer.
Easier on logistics etc.
Note that Aussie was concentrating on Astra (since they could make it - are they making it?) and had to go and beg for some more Pfizer from the Poles because people aren't so keen on Astra.
We made the right choice!

dobby41
31-08-2021, 11:25 AM
Funny as hearing PM and Hipkins with contradicting comments on how much vaccine we have and will be getting

Case of more one trys to explain the bigger the deeper the hole becomes

Only conclusion to come to is that we are going to run out in the next week or so and jabbing will have to be stopped (or seriously curtailed)

It does make you think that they should stop digging.

We had 840k doses and got another 300k on Sunday.
Even at 500k/week we won't run out for a few weeks (not next week). Assuming we are still going to get the weekly smaller orders?

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 11:31 AM
That was in reply to Ryan suggesting we should have anticipated the surge in vaccination based on overseas experience.

The graph presented predates Ryan's question, and she also stated this on TV One breakfast although not as emphatically. Beating other countries, like it's a badge of honor, when we're at the bottom of the OECD tables isn't an achievement to be proud of.

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 11:38 AM
We had agreed to get 1.5mil doses and changed that early this year to 10mil when the decision was made to concentrate on just Pfizer.
Easier on logistics etc.
Note that Aussie was concentrating on Astra (since they could make it - are they making it?) and had to go and beg for some more Pfizer from the Poles because people aren't so keen on Astra.
We made the right choice!

If vaccination rates had been quicker then Astra wouldn't have been an issue. The longer you provide the public with a chance to listen to anti vax propaganda, the more problems we have. Shouldn't we have learnt that from Australia?

With regards to Pfizer, logistics weren't mentioned initially, the point that was made repeatedly surrounded efficacy. But to infer the public prefer Pfizer because they're familiar it is disappointing. We still don't have a choice.

The strategy to concentrate on one vaccine, which could shortly be reversed, carries a number of issues from risk mitigation and logistical perspectives, especially when a switch was made so late in the game.

dobby41
31-08-2021, 12:20 PM
If vaccination rates had been quicker then Astra wouldn't have been an issue. The longer you provide the public with a chance to listen to anti vax propaganda, the more problems we have. Shouldn't we have learnt that from Australia?


Interesting idea - get in quick before the public cotton on?

It was mentioned early on that having just one vaccine made things easier to roll out.

Balance
31-08-2021, 01:03 PM
It was mentioned early on that having just one vaccine made things easier to roll out.

Not true.

Australia is rolling out its program using AZ & Pfizer. Moderna & Novavax to be added as supply become available. NSW data shows how quickly they have been able to roll out the vaccination program.

In Hong Kong, they are using Sinovac, AZ & Pfizer. Likewise, Thailand and Malaysia.

Are our medical personnel here really less capable than the ones in those countries to handle more than one vaccine?

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 01:20 PM
Interesting idea - get in quick before the public cotton on?

It was mentioned early on that having just one vaccine made things easier to roll out.

Cotton on to what? The very small risk associated with that specific vaccine applied to people in a certain age band?

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 01:24 PM
Not true.

Australia is rolling out its program using AZ & Pfizer. Moderna & Novavax to be added as supply become available. NSW data shows how quickly they have been able to roll out the vaccination program.

In Hong Kong, they are using Sinovac, AZ & Pfizer. Likewise, Thailand and Malaysia.
Are our medical personnel here really less capable than the ones in those countries to handle more than one vaccine?

I don't remember going to different doctors to administer each dose I received as a child, so I presume these professionals are at least as skilled today as they were in the past?

Some other vaccines do not require specialised refrigeration equipment like the Pfizer, so storage would not have been the major issue preventing this.

dobby41
31-08-2021, 01:32 PM
Cotton on to what? The very small risk associated with that specific vaccine applied to people in a certain age band?

Exactly - I wondered the same.
Why would rolling Astra out fast make it less of an issue?

Zaphod
31-08-2021, 01:36 PM
Exactly - I wondered the same.
Why would rolling Astra out fast make it less of an issue?

Because the time lag for administring a vaccine has left a larger opening for antivaxxers to rally the troops to spread mis/disinformation.

dobby41
31-08-2021, 01:53 PM
Because the time lag for administring a vaccine has left a larger opening for antivaxxers to rally the troops to spread mis/disinformation.

Gotcha !

iceman
31-08-2021, 07:31 PM
Interesting idea - get in quick before the public cotton on?

It was mentioned early on that having just one vaccine made things easier to roll out.

That is just yet another excuse from the Government. Every other country in the World is rolling out 2 or more vaccines and doing it much quicker than we are. That excuse just doesn't fly.

Panda-NZ-
31-08-2021, 10:26 PM
Thanks to Helen for keeping us out of Iraq with only a minor team in afghanistan.

Shows that we could do with women at all levels in leadership in other countries esp the US.
The world would indeed be better if it was led by women.

fungus pudding
01-09-2021, 10:32 AM
The world would indeed be better if it was led by women.

Any particular colour preference?

jonu
01-09-2021, 10:39 AM
Thanks to Helen for keeping us out of Iraq with only a minor team in afghanistan.

Shows that we could do with women at all levels in leadership in other countries esp the US.
The world would indeed be better if it was led by women.

Of the Margaret Thatcher variety or the Helen Clark variety? Maggie wasn't hesitant to have a man pick up a gun for her.

Zaphod
01-09-2021, 11:25 AM
Thanks to Helen for keeping us out of Iraq with only a minor team in afghanistan.

Shows that we could do with women at all levels in leadership in other countries esp the US.
The world would indeed be better if it was led by women.

Woman = good leader, Man = bad leader, all based upon one example? That's pretty offensive.

Panda-NZ-
01-09-2021, 03:41 PM
History has proven these sort of issues and leadership failures are more common with men.

Inter-male competition has plenty of downsides.. hence why most criminals in each category are men.

fungus pudding
01-09-2021, 03:43 PM
History has proven these sort of issues and leadership failures are more common with men.

Inter-male competition has significant downsides.. hence why most criminals in every category are men.

Can't help wondering - have you got an owner?

Panda-NZ-
01-09-2021, 04:49 PM
Slavery was abolished around 200 years ago..

you can't own anyone, much as you'd probably like to.

Balance
02-09-2021, 07:11 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300397852/actions-of-covid-case-who-absconded-from-auckland-quarantine-utterly-unacceptable

So Cindy stood in front of the pulpit today at 1 pm, knowing that there was a Covid positive MIQ escapee since 2 am but kept quiet about it. And Bloomfield was told by text during the 1 pm briefing.

Trust Cindy to tell the truth?

winner69
02-09-2021, 07:38 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300397852/actions-of-covid-case-who-absconded-from-auckland-quarantine-utterly-unacceptable

So Cindy stood in front of the pulpit today at 1 pm, knowing that there was a Covid positive MIQ escapee since 2 am but kept quiet about it. And Bloomfield was told by text during the 1 pm briefing.

Trust Cindy to tell the truth?

Not a good look is it mate …..totally unacceptable seems to be commonly used phrase these days

Hope the guy scanned in at the places he visited on the way home

RTM
02-09-2021, 07:45 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300397852/actions-of-covid-case-who-absconded-from-auckland-quarantine-utterly-unacceptable

So Cindy stood in front of the pulpit today at 1 pm, knowing that there was a Covid positive MIQ escapee since 2 am but kept quiet about it. And Bloomfield was told by text during the 1 pm briefing.

Trust Cindy to tell the truth?

Nope. Don't trust any politician to tell the truth.

Balance
02-09-2021, 09:20 PM
Not a good look is it mate …..totally unacceptable seems to be commonly used phrase these days

Hope the guy scanned in at the places he visited on the way home

Or ‘not good’ enough.

Truth is, Cindy & her incompetents are not good enough and totally unacceptable for the future of NZ.

iceman
03-09-2021, 08:07 AM
Not a good look is it mate …..totally unacceptable seems to be commonly used phrase these days

Hope the guy scanned in at the places he visited on the way home

Not sure about this one. It was an active police operation at the time, so a very fine line to tread